WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.240 OK, let's unpack this. We're diving into a figure 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.719 whose career trajectory, it didn't just change 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:08.900 the concept of fine dining. Oh, not at all. It 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:12.699 arguably defined what a modern, globally influential 00:00:12.699 --> 00:00:17.059 celebrity chef even looks like today. We're talking 00:00:17.059 --> 00:00:19.420 about David Chang. Exactly. And what's fascinating 00:00:19.420 --> 00:00:23.100 is. We aren't simply analyzing a chef who got 00:00:23.100 --> 00:00:25.620 successful. We're looking at someone who systematically 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:28.820 mastered the, you know, the established high 00:00:28.820 --> 00:00:31.219 pressure world of culinary arts. Right. We're 00:00:31.219 --> 00:00:34.299 talking five James Beard awards, multiple Michelin 00:00:34.299 --> 00:00:37.219 stars, serious credentials. The highest level. 00:00:37.259 --> 00:00:39.700 But at the same time, he very publicly rejected 00:00:39.700 --> 00:00:42.520 the limitations, the stiffness, maybe the pretension 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:45.539 of that whole system. He built this empire, Momofuku, 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.179 that stretches from these tiny secretive two 00:00:48.179 --> 00:00:50.759 Michelin starred tasting. menus, all the way 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:53.880 to like fast food fried chicken chains in sports 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.899 stadiums. And Netflix shows, print media. He's 00:00:56.899 --> 00:00:59.259 everywhere. A dominant multifaceted presence. 00:00:59.380 --> 00:01:01.840 It's quite something. What stands out immediately 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.099 in our source material, really dig into this, 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:06.819 is just the sheer breadth of his influence. Born 00:01:06.819 --> 00:01:09.959 1977, founder of the Momofuku group. Yeah. And 00:01:09.959 --> 00:01:15.680 the name itself, Momofuku. It's interesting, 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:18.019 right? His website says it means lucky peach. 00:01:18.569 --> 00:01:21.310 Which is a nice touch, yeah. A nod to his heritage. 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:24.390 It is. But it also, apparently quite intentionally, 00:01:24.670 --> 00:01:28.090 references Momofuku Ando. The inventor of instant 00:01:28.090 --> 00:01:31.590 noodles. Exactly. So right there, from the name, 00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:36.209 you get this duality. embrace of high end technique 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:40.129 and the most common, maybe lowbrow food product 00:01:40.129 --> 00:01:42.329 imaginable. That's it. That tension. That's the 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:44.290 core of his brand, isn't it? The oscillation 00:01:44.290 --> 00:01:46.489 between the elite and the accessible. Totally. 00:01:46.590 --> 00:01:48.430 And that's what makes his career so compelling 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:51.030 to analyze. So our deep dive today, we're really 00:01:51.030 --> 00:01:53.390 focused on looking at every facet of that tension. 00:01:53.569 --> 00:01:55.989 Right. We're tracing his biography, the history 00:01:55.989 --> 00:01:57.950 of his restaurants, the revolutionary start, 00:01:58.049 --> 00:02:00.269 but also importantly, the business volatility 00:02:00.269 --> 00:02:02.450 later on. Yeah, the closures too. The closures 00:02:02.450 --> 00:02:05.379 definitely is huge. media presence, the unique 00:02:05.379 --> 00:02:08.080 literary projects like Lucky Peach and yeah, 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:10.259 the controversies he started up. And the mission 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:13.400 for you listening is to trace that journey from 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:15.780 this like unconventional student who wasn't even 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:18.479 studying food. Religious studies of all things. 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:20.639 Right. And then a frustrated fine dining cook 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:23.900 to this global icon who's still launching new 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:26.599 stuff even after closing some legendary places. 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.080 He never seems to stop. So let's start at the 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:32.090 beginning. Because his foundations, educationally 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:34.810 and professionally, they're maybe the most surprising 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.330 part of the whole story. Okay. So when you look 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:41.009 at his early life, there's really no obvious 00:02:41.009 --> 00:02:43.530 sign pointing towards Michelin stars and Netflix 00:02:43.530 --> 00:02:47.090 deals. David Chang was born in Arlington County, 00:02:47.250 --> 00:02:50.770 Virginia. His parents, Wu Chunhai, or Sherry, 00:02:50.789 --> 00:02:54.080 and Chang Jin -pil. Joseph P. Chang later on. 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.960 They emigrated from Korea back in the 1960s. 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.180 And the sources get specific, don't they? About 00:02:59.180 --> 00:03:02.159 where in Korea? They do. His father was born 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:04.740 in Pyongyang, his mother in Kaesong. That adds 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:06.979 a whole layer of, you know, history and migration 00:03:06.979 --> 00:03:09.840 context to his background. It really does. But 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.000 despite that specific history, he grew up mostly 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:14.280 in Vienna, Virginia. Pretty standard American 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:16.840 suburban upbringing in many ways. Except for 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.780 the Gulf. Ah, yes, the golf. He wasn't just playing 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:22.219 casually. He was a serious competitive junior 00:03:22.219 --> 00:03:26.340 golfer. Which requires... Of what? Intense focus. 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.180 Discipline. Totally. Intense focus, probably 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:33.199 a lot of solitary practice, competitive drive, 00:03:33.460 --> 00:03:36.240 performing under pressure. Think about it. Yeah. 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:38.900 That kind of ingrained competitiveness honed 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:41.039 on a golf course. You have to think that transferred 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:44.560 directly into the high stakes kind of zero sum 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.419 world of professional kitchens later. Makes sense. 00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:51.780 Yeah. But then comes this like major detour in 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:54.199 his education. Yeah. After Georgetown prep, he 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:56.740 goes to Trinity College in Hartford. Right. And 00:03:56.740 --> 00:03:59.479 he doesn't major in business or hospitality or 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.620 anything remotely food related. He majors in 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:03.699 religious studies. Which is such a stark contrast, 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.400 isn't it? the eventual chaos and commerce of 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:08.439 running a global restaurant group. It really 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:10.620 is. And you could argue, I think convincingly, 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:12.580 that this non -traditional background is absolutely 00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:15.259 key to understanding why he became such an iconoclast 00:04:15.259 --> 00:04:17.800 later. How so? Well, think about religious studies. 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.319 You spend years analyzing belief systems, dogma, 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:24.540 tradition, human structures, why rules exist, 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.790 how they're maintained, and crucially... how 00:04:27.790 --> 00:04:30.550 they get dismantled or reinvented. So he didn't 00:04:30.550 --> 00:04:33.269 come up through that rigid, very hierarchical 00:04:33.269 --> 00:04:36.649 European culinary tradition. He kind of approached 00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:40.089 it as an intellectual outsider. Ah, so he was 00:04:40.089 --> 00:04:42.329 already primed to question the rules. Exactly. 00:04:42.589 --> 00:04:44.810 Perfectly prepared to question the dogma, the 00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:47.610 structure of what a fine dining restaurant had 00:04:47.610 --> 00:04:50.310 to be. He was ready to build something new. That 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:53.350 makes a lot of sense. So after college, the path 00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:57.120 is still a bit... Twisty. Yeah, definitely meandering 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.279 for a while, which, you know, is pretty relatable 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.079 for a lot of people in their 20s trying to figure 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.759 things out. Sure is. He taught English in Japan 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.600 for a bit. Mm -hmm. Bust tables. Even did some 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.540 finance jobs in New York City. Right, finance. 00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:10.759 Seems like he was trying different things. It 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:12.980 wasn't until 2000 that he actually made the formal 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:15.379 jump into cooking. Yeah, enrolling at the French 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:18.819 Culinary Institute, FCI, in New York. So he started 00:05:18.819 --> 00:05:21.930 formal training. Relatively late, what, 23? Around 00:05:21.930 --> 00:05:24.269 then, yeah. Which meant his immersion had to 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:27.029 be pretty intense right away. While he was at 00:05:27.029 --> 00:05:29.269 FCI, he worked part -time at Mercer Kitchen. 00:05:29.509 --> 00:05:32.310 But maybe the really formative gig was the two 00:05:32.310 --> 00:05:35.230 years he spent answering phones at Tom Colicchio's 00:05:35.230 --> 00:05:38.230 place, Kraft. Answering phones, not cooking. 00:05:38.350 --> 00:05:41.350 Answering phones, which sounds mundane, maybe, 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:44.319 but think about it. You're not in the back prepping 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.860 veg. You're at the nerve center of the front 00:05:46.860 --> 00:05:49.699 of house. Hearing everything. Everything. The 00:05:49.699 --> 00:05:52.740 demands, the expectations, sometimes the sheer 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:55.259 pretension of the clientele at a top tier New 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:57.939 York spot. He was basically observing the whole 00:05:57.939 --> 00:06:00.639 system from the front lines. That's a fascinating 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:02.879 perspective. Then he wanted more hands -on experience, 00:06:03.139 --> 00:06:05.839 right? Went back to Asia. Exactly. He wanted 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.040 to master the craft. So he went back to Japan, 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:11.339 worked at a small soba shop first, learning that 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:13.980 precision, that focus. Right. Then moved on to 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:16.759 a restaurant inside the Park Hyatt Hotel in Tokyo. 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.420 More high end experience. So he's getting this 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:21.980 blend of influences now. Absolutely critical. 00:06:22.180 --> 00:06:24.120 It's like the synthesis happening in his mind. 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:26.720 He's got the rigid French techniques from FCI. 00:06:26.819 --> 00:06:30.639 And now he's adding the precise, focused, sometimes 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.100 quite austere techniques of Japanese cuisine. 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.040 So when he comes back to the U .S., he lands 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:39.240 a job at Cafe Boulu, which was huge for him. 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:42.259 Why Boulu specifically? Because his idol, the 00:06:42.259 --> 00:06:45.240 chef Alex Lee, had worked there. So for Chang, 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:48.120 working at Boulud was like reaching the pinnacle 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:50.500 of that traditional French -American training 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.240 path. He'd done the work. Mastered the system. 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.600 He had. He'd climbed the ladder. And yet, this 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:58.480 is where the big shift happens. The sources are 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.639 really clear on this. They explicitly say he... 00:07:02.029 --> 00:07:04.149 Group completely dissatisfied with the whole 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:06.689 fine dining scene. Right. Total rejection. So 00:07:06.689 --> 00:07:09.009 here's the key question then, isn't it? How did 00:07:09.009 --> 00:07:11.290 that specific dissatisfaction, that feeling of 00:07:11.290 --> 00:07:13.970 this isn't it, how did that directly fuel the 00:07:13.970 --> 00:07:16.790 identity of Momofuku? Well, the realization wasn't 00:07:16.790 --> 00:07:18.649 that the food and fine dining was bad. I mean, 00:07:18.670 --> 00:07:20.629 technically it was brilliant. Sure. The rejection 00:07:20.629 --> 00:07:25.839 was cultural. structural. He saw a system that 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:28.660 felt creatively stifling, maybe overly precious, 00:07:28.819 --> 00:07:32.100 obsessed with arbitrary rules, dominated by an 00:07:32.100 --> 00:07:34.500 old guard that valued tradition over invention. 00:07:34.819 --> 00:07:38.759 And when you spend years mastering a system only 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.079 to find it feels kind of hollow or just not for 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.319 you. The most powerful response, the revolutionary 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.560 response, is to build something that's the complete 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:50.509 opposite. So he wasn't going to open just another 00:07:50.509 --> 00:07:52.629 fancy place with tablecloths and sommeliers. 00:07:52.829 --> 00:07:55.149 No way. He was going to take the quality, the 00:07:55.149 --> 00:07:57.370 precision, the technique he learned at places 00:07:57.370 --> 00:08:00.870 like Bouloud and Craft. Yeah. And jam it into 00:08:00.870 --> 00:08:03.870 a humble, loud, kind of rough around the edges 00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:06.310 noodle shop in the East Village. That's the core 00:08:06.310 --> 00:08:08.810 DNA right there. That's the foundational revolutionary 00:08:08.810 --> 00:08:12.589 DNA of Momofuku. Demanding excellence, but without 00:08:12.589 --> 00:08:15.550 any of the usual fine dining baggage. Rejecting 00:08:15.550 --> 00:08:18.009 the need for silence or reverence or fancy decor. 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.319 It was basically like culinary punk rock. I like 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:23.360 that. Culinary punk rock. OK, so that sets the 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.319 stage for the actual launch. So 2004, the revolution 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.180 kicks off. Momofuku Noodle Bar opens in the East 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:31.439 Village. Yeah, small place, right? Strategically 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.240 located where the rent was maybe a bit lower. 00:08:33.419 --> 00:08:35.779 Definitely. And it was noisy, apparently quite 00:08:35.779 --> 00:08:38.600 basic inside. But it had this immediate explosive 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.399 impact, partly because of those intentional constraints 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.720 we talked about. And the name again, Momofuku. 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:47.580 Lucky Peach. Optimistic, whimsical. Right. But 00:08:47.580 --> 00:08:50.500 also nodding to Momofuku Ando, inventor of instant 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.500 ramen. It signals two things right off the bat. 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:55.639 One, we're serious about Asian inspired food, 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:58.899 maybe ramen specifically. And two, we absolutely 00:08:58.899 --> 00:09:02.019 refuse to be precious about it. High technique, 00:09:02.259 --> 00:09:05.019 comfort food target. Exactly. High technique 00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:07.769 applied to comfort food. Genius positioning. 00:09:08.090 --> 00:09:10.850 And the food itself. The hits were like immediate, 00:09:11.070 --> 00:09:13.470 unforgettable. Oh, yeah. The Noodle Bar's pork 00:09:13.470 --> 00:09:16.429 ramen obviously elevated incredible broth, quality 00:09:16.429 --> 00:09:19.590 ingredients, and crucially, the Momofuku pork 00:09:19.590 --> 00:09:21.990 buns. They became instant icons. The pork bun. 00:09:22.070 --> 00:09:23.570 Let's talk about that for a second. Why was that 00:09:23.570 --> 00:09:25.970 so impactful? It was just pure genius in its 00:09:25.970 --> 00:09:28.470 simplicity and its execution. It took a familiar, 00:09:28.570 --> 00:09:32.730 simple Asian street food idea, the steamed bun. 00:09:32.909 --> 00:09:36.200 Ba -ba -ba. Wow. Ba -ching. elevated it, used 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.720 clearly superior ingredients, focused on a signature 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.899 preparation of the pork belly, often really savory, 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.000 fatty, perfectly cooked. So it was familiar, 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:48.899 but better. Way better. And it wasn't just popular. 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:52.559 It became a cultural artifact. It defined that 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.220 whole decade's trend of street food meeting fine 00:09:56.220 --> 00:09:59.559 dining technique. Instantly recognizable, incredibly 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.139 addictive. And copied everywhere. Ceaselessly 00:10:02.139 --> 00:10:04.559 copied, which is the ultimate sign you've created 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.580 something truly resonant. So Noodle Bar's a hit. 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.600 The expansion must have followed pretty quickly. 00:10:09.740 --> 00:10:11.519 It did. It showed this wasn't just a one -off 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.269 fluke. This model worked. So 2006, just two years 00:10:15.269 --> 00:10:18.049 later, Momofuku Sambar opens nearby. Still East 00:10:18.049 --> 00:10:20.789 Village. Still close by, yeah. And it was immediately 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:23.129 acclaimed. The infatuation, for example, gave 00:10:23.129 --> 00:10:25.509 it a really high rating. Praised the menu, which 00:10:25.509 --> 00:10:28.529 moved beyond just ramen for being, quote, inventive, 00:10:28.529 --> 00:10:31.370 exciting, and different. So a broader menu. Large 00:10:31.370 --> 00:10:33.629 format dishes, maybe. Exactly. Things like the 00:10:33.629 --> 00:10:36.289 bosim, the large pork shoulder dish. More creative 00:10:36.289 --> 00:10:38.610 takes on Asian flavors still in that casual, 00:10:38.690 --> 00:10:41.370 high -energy setting. And this success starts 00:10:41.370 --> 00:10:43.629 getting him mainstream recognition. Big time. 00:10:43.750 --> 00:10:46.370 Chang won the James Beard Award for Best Chef 00:10:46.370 --> 00:10:50.110 NYC in 2008, specifically for his work at Sembar. 00:10:50.250 --> 00:10:52.539 That's huge. The establishment he was supposedly 00:10:52.539 --> 00:10:54.580 rebelling against is now giving him their top 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:57.279 awards. That's the irony, right? But it proved 00:10:57.279 --> 00:10:59.639 the quality was undeniable. You couldn't ignore 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:01.840 what he was doing, even if it broke all the old 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:04.659 rules. But then comes the real statement piece. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.379 The place that perfectly encapsulated his whole 00:11:07.379 --> 00:11:10.019 high -low thing, while proving he could play 00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:13.539 at the absolute highest level. Moafuku Co. Co, 00:11:13.659 --> 00:11:16.600 yeah. Opened in 2008. Tiny place. Like, extremely 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:19.700 exclusive. Just 12 seats. Tasting menu only. 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:22.539 12 seats. How did you even get in? Ah, well, 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:24.240 the way you got in was almost as revolutionary 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:26.779 as the food. This is a critical point. We're 00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:29.059 talking 2008, well before online reservations 00:11:29.059 --> 00:11:31.519 were the norm everywhere. Right. Coast was strictly 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.879 online only. First come, first served. You had 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.039 to book exactly 10 days in advance right when 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:39.779 the system opened. It completely eliminated the 00:11:39.779 --> 00:11:42.220 old system, you know, calling the restaurant, 00:11:42.340 --> 00:11:44.960 knowing the major day, pulling strings. It turned 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.379 getting a reservation into this competitive digital. 00:11:48.410 --> 00:11:50.809 Sport. Like trying to get concert tickets. Exactly 00:11:50.809 --> 00:11:53.190 like that. Yeah. It created this unique form 00:11:53.190 --> 00:11:56.210 of exclusivity based on speed and digital access. 00:11:56.509 --> 00:11:58.669 Not necessarily wealth or connections. It's sort 00:11:58.669 --> 00:12:01.190 of democratized access in theory. But created 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:04.129 insane scarcity in practice. Intense, maddening 00:12:04.129 --> 00:12:06.870 scarcity. That system itself was pure disruption. 00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:09.370 And honestly, it helped pave the way for modern 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:13.049 reservation platforms like TikTok, Resi. It fundamentally 00:12:13.049 --> 00:12:15.470 changed how high -end restaurants manage demand. 00:12:15.789 --> 00:12:17.509 And the food must have lived up to the hype. 00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:19.789 Oh, it did. The quality matched the hype and 00:12:19.789 --> 00:12:22.509 the accolades followed immediately. Momofuku 00:12:22.509 --> 00:12:25.690 Co. got awarded two Michelin stars in 2009. Two 00:12:25.690 --> 00:12:27.889 stars within a year. Within about a year, yeah. 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:30.769 And remarkably, it kept those two stars every 00:12:30.769 --> 00:12:33.070 single year until it eventually closed in 2023. 00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:36.649 Over a decade. Incredible consistency. Plus, 00:12:36.669 --> 00:12:38.870 it won the James Beard Award for Best New Restaurant 00:12:38.870 --> 00:12:42.169 in 2009. So getting two Michelin stars that fast 00:12:42.169 --> 00:12:44.750 with that reservation system serving unconventional 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:47.669 food. It wasn't just success. It was a total 00:12:47.669 --> 00:12:50.370 validation of his entire anti -establishment 00:12:50.370 --> 00:12:53.029 approach. While Coe is hitting this peak fine 00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:54.929 dining success, he's also branching out in a 00:12:54.929 --> 00:12:56.750 totally different direction, right? Dessert? 00:12:57.029 --> 00:12:59.629 Simultaneously, yeah. He expanded Sembar physically 00:12:59.629 --> 00:13:02.870 in 2008, and he brought in his colleague Christina 00:13:02.870 --> 00:13:05.889 Tosi to run the pastry program. Christina Tosi. 00:13:06.029 --> 00:13:08.169 A huge name now in her own right. Absolutely. 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:10.730 And that program quickly spun off into its own 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:14.129 thing. Momofuku Milk Bar. And car. Also iconic. 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:16.720 Equally radical, really, but in the dessert space. 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:19.519 Tosi wasn't doing classic French patisserie. 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:22.700 She was creating desserts inspired by like childhood 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:25.860 treats, American home baking, really unorthodox 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:28.639 flavor combinations. Like what? Soft serve pies, 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:31.899 cookies, cakes, but using ingredients like milk 00:13:31.899 --> 00:13:34.759 powder, cornflakes, pretzels. Her signature is 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:36.379 the crack pie, which is now just called milk 00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:38.940 bar pie. The cereal milk ice cream, the compost 00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:40.700 cookies with everything thrown in. They were 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:44.629 so unique and so perfectly suited for. They felt 00:13:44.629 --> 00:13:48.009 very different, very branded. Exactly. And the 00:13:48.009 --> 00:13:51.029 sources note, by May 2009, they were already 00:13:51.029 --> 00:13:53.549 in the process of trademarking those names and 00:13:53.549 --> 00:13:56.889 concepts, which shows remarkable business foresight. 00:13:57.230 --> 00:13:59.909 Recognizing the IP value early on. Yeah, seeing 00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:02.509 that these personal, fun, reproducible concepts 00:14:02.509 --> 00:14:05.730 were valuable intellectual property, that they 00:14:05.730 --> 00:14:08.309 could be the basis for a future packaged goods 00:14:08.309 --> 00:14:10.730 empire, which is exactly what happened with Milk 00:14:10.730 --> 00:14:12.750 Bar. So before the decade even closes, he's got 00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:15.789 Noodle Bar, Sim Bar, the two -star co, Milk Bar 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:18.350 spinning off. And then he moves into publishing. 00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:21.169 Solidifying his role as a thought leader, not 00:14:21.169 --> 00:14:24.889 just a chef. October 2009, he publishes the Momofuku 00:14:24.889 --> 00:14:27.549 cookbook with Peter Meehan, the former New York 00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:29.909 Times food writer. Was it just recipes? It had 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:32.330 recipes. Yeah, often quite detailed and challenging 00:14:32.330 --> 00:14:34.210 ones. But it was more than that. It was highly 00:14:34.210 --> 00:14:37.190 anticipated, seen as a statement. It cemented 00:14:37.190 --> 00:14:39.429 the idea that Momofuku wasn't just serving food. 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:41.809 They were creating a whole culinary philosophy 00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:44.129 that people wanted to study and try to replicate. 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:48.919 Okay, so the 2010s arrive. Chang isn't just the 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.399 revolutionary New York chef anymore. He's pivoting, 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.990 right? Becoming the head of a truly global empire. 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:56.710 That's the big shift. The model changes from 00:14:56.710 --> 00:14:59.169 those small sort of constrained East Village 00:14:59.169 --> 00:15:02.389 spots to much larger, more ambitious projects, 00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:06.309 highly diversified. And these required serious 00:15:06.309 --> 00:15:09.029 capital, serious brand leverage. That intense 00:15:09.029 --> 00:15:11.970 early success must have given him the runway 00:15:11.970 --> 00:15:14.549 for that. Exactly. It provided the immediate 00:15:14.549 --> 00:15:17.049 capital and crucially, the brand recognition 00:15:17.049 --> 00:15:20.090 needed to take these huge financial risks, often 00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:22.309 internationally where the market. it maybe felt 00:15:22.309 --> 00:15:24.529 less saturated for his style. So where did he 00:15:24.529 --> 00:15:27.929 go first? Well, first, another NYC spot in May 00:15:27.929 --> 00:15:31.330 2010, Mapache in midtown Manhattan, trying to 00:15:31.330 --> 00:15:33.570 translate the Momofuku vibe for a more corporate 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:36.289 crowd. Mixed results, apparently. It ended up 00:15:36.289 --> 00:15:38.789 closing in 2018, so not every expansion landed 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:40.850 perfectly. Right. But the first big international 00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:43.090 jump, that was Australia, wasn't it? Sydney, 00:15:43.169 --> 00:15:45.590 Australia, announced in 2011, opened in October. 00:15:46.009 --> 00:15:48.269 Momofuku Safebo, his first restaurant outside 00:15:48.269 --> 00:15:50.629 the U .S. Why Sydney? He was quoted around then 00:15:50.629 --> 00:15:52.529 saying he'd just fallen in love with Australia, 00:15:52.769 --> 00:15:56.440 called the scene Fresh and energetic. Okay. And 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.019 that energy definitely translated into success. 00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:02.600 Sabo was located in the Star City Casino, and 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.200 it got massive critical acclaim right away. How 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.940 acclaimed? For our listeners maybe less familiar 00:16:07.940 --> 00:16:09.879 with the Australian system, the sources note 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.019 it got three hats from the Sydney Morning Herald 00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:15.200 Good Food Guide. Which is like their version 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.379 of Michelin stars, basically. Exactly. Three 00:16:18.379 --> 00:16:21.600 hats is the pinnacle. And it was named Best New 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.100 Restaurant in its first year. So it proved the 00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:26.500 Momofuku philosophy could travel, it could compete 00:16:26.500 --> 00:16:29.240 and win against established local players on 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.600 a different continent. Wow. Okay, so Sydney's 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.809 a hit. Then Canada. Then Toronto in 2012. And 00:16:35.809 --> 00:16:37.970 this was a really large -scale venture, not just 00:16:37.970 --> 00:16:40.529 one restaurant. What was it? It was this multi 00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:44.169 -concept installation inside a, like, dramatic 00:16:44.169 --> 00:16:47.710 three -story glass cube building. A real architectural 00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:50.049 statement. I'm trying to make a splash. Big splash. 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.990 It housed the signature noodle bar concept, plus 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.230 two more ambitious restaurants called Daishu 00:16:56.230 --> 00:17:00.009 and Shutu, and a bar called Nikai. Multiple experiences 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:02.940 under one roof. And how did the Toronto project 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:06.640 fare? Because that sounds complex. It illustrates 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.519 that business volatility we mentioned earlier, 00:17:08.619 --> 00:17:10.660 even during the expansion phase. That noodle 00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:14.619 bar concept, robust, stayed open. Okay. But the 00:17:14.619 --> 00:17:17.240 higher end concepts, Daishu and Shuchu, they 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:19.460 struggled more with longevity. Closed in 2017. 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:21.920 Replaced later. Yeah, replaced by a different 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.619 concept, Kojin, in 2018. So it showed the core 00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:29.210 Momofuku brand was strong, but... the more specialized, 00:17:29.509 --> 00:17:31.970 maybe larger format concepts within the group. 00:17:32.130 --> 00:17:34.589 Still vulnerable, required constant tweaking 00:17:34.589 --> 00:17:36.869 and reassessment. And the diversification wasn't 00:17:36.869 --> 00:17:38.789 just about geography, right? He started moving 00:17:38.789 --> 00:17:40.829 into different types of food service. Critically 00:17:40.829 --> 00:17:43.130 important move, yeah. A deliberate shift towards 00:17:43.130 --> 00:17:46.309 scalability. In 2015, he launches Fuku. Fuku, 00:17:46.509 --> 00:17:49.539 the fried chicken sandwich chain. Exactly. A 00:17:49.539 --> 00:17:52.660 direct, calculated move into the QSR quick service 00:17:52.660 --> 00:17:55.140 restaurant category, leveraging the Momofuku 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:57.880 brand's cool factor and quality reputation for 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:01.859 mass market appeal. High volume sales. And Frico 00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:03.819 seems to have found its niche, especially in 00:18:03.819 --> 00:18:05.900 certain venues. Incredibly portable concept. 00:18:06.019 --> 00:18:08.160 The sources point out its current locations, 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.859 numerous spots in major sports stadiums and arenas, 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.940 Allegiant Stadium in Vegas, Yankee Stadium, Citi 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:16.700 Field in New York, Madison Square Garden. High 00:18:16.700 --> 00:18:19.500 traffic locations. Exactly. He realized. Quality 00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:22.640 fried chicken sandwich plus Momofuku name, potent 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.660 formula for securing these high volume contracts. 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:28.579 It's a completely different revenue stream than, 00:18:28.660 --> 00:18:31.819 say, the tiny high touch Momofuku Co. He was 00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:33.579 also looking at technology and delivery very 00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:35.779 early, wasn't he? Way ahead of the curve. In 00:18:35.779 --> 00:18:39.660 2016, launched Ando, called it his first digital 00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:42.400 only restaurant. Meaning? Delivery only. Took 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.200 orders strictly via an app operating in Midtown 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.980 East New York. This was a super early aggressive 00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:54.160 phone. So he's constantly experimenting with 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.259 the how of dining, not just the what. Always. 00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.539 Restless innovator. Predicting that shift towards 00:18:59.539 --> 00:19:02.259 third -party delivery. And around the same time, 00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:05.240 2016, he partners with Impossible Foods. The 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.180 plant -based meat company. Yeah, one of the big 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:10.200 Silicon Valley food tech startups then. He started 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.380 preparing their Impossible Burger, put it on 00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:14.460 the menu at Momofuku Nishi. Which was a big deal 00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:17.220 back then. Huge deal. It showed he was willing 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:19.900 to embrace this highly experimental, potentially 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:22.859 sustainable food technology and integrate it 00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:25.039 right into his high profile restaurant menus. 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:28.299 Cemented his image as a kind of food futurist. 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.059 And the expansion kept going west, too, right? 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:34.039 Right. L .A.? 2018, Major Domo opens in Los Angeles, 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.960 his first big West Coast restaurant venture. 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:40.920 So this whole period, 2010 to roughly 2019, it's 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.819 just relentless expansion. Global reach, new 00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:46.369 concepts, tech focus. Relentless is the word. 00:19:46.470 --> 00:19:48.670 But if we connect this back to the bigger picture, 00:19:48.829 --> 00:19:52.890 this cycle of rapid, often very expensive expansion, 00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:55.269 it sets the stage for the consolidation that 00:19:55.269 --> 00:19:58.490 followed, especially post 2020. It really illustrates 00:19:58.490 --> 00:20:01.430 the intense business volatility facing even the 00:20:01.430 --> 00:20:04.150 most successful high end restaurant groups, particularly 00:20:04.150 --> 00:20:07.450 in major cities. It's the the harsh economic 00:20:07.450 --> 00:20:10.789 reality behind the glamorous empire facade. Absolutely. 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:14.630 And then COVID -19 hits. March 2020. And everything 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:17.349 changes. Momofuku, like everyone else, temporarily 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:20.990 closes all its restaurants. But some didn't reopen. 00:20:21.190 --> 00:20:23.609 No. Later that year, the permanent closure started. 00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:27.390 Momofuku Nishi in New York. Momofuku CCDC in 00:20:27.390 --> 00:20:29.450 Washington, D .C. The Sydney restaurant, too. 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.740 Sagebow. Sagebow closed in 2021. Even the Vegas 00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:35.440 projects he'd opened relatively recently, Majordomo 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.059 Meat and Fish, Moon Palace, they closed in 2022. 00:20:38.420 --> 00:20:41.019 And then came the really big symbolic closures 00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:43.920 in 2023. Yeah. Mamafuku Sembar, the place that 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:46.950 won him Best Chef NYC back in 08. Close September 00:20:46.950 --> 00:20:50.230 30th. And then go. And then Momofuku Co. The 00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:52.410 two Michelin -starred institution, the reservation 00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:55.490 disruptor, closed its doors November 4th, 2023. 00:20:55.750 --> 00:20:58.309 After holding those stars for, what, 14 years? 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:00.190 Closing Co. That feels like more than just a 00:21:00.190 --> 00:21:01.549 business decision. It feels like a statement. 00:21:01.900 --> 00:21:05.460 It absolutely was a profound statement. It signals, 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:08.480 I think, a definitive move away from that specific 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.039 model, the unsustainable, super high cost, high 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.599 pressure, tiny tasting menu restaurant. Why unsustainable? 00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:18.480 Think about the economics. Coe required extreme 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.019 labor density, tons of highly skilled staff for 00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:25.000 just 12 seats, incredibly high ingredient costs, 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:28.410 very little volume to offset that. Post -pandemic, 00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:31.029 the math just likely didn't work anymore or wasn't 00:21:31.029 --> 00:21:33.049 worth the immense stress. So the closures reflect 00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:35.130 the strategic shift. A pragmatic shift, yeah. 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:37.829 Torch concepts that are either mass market, like 00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:40.450 Fuku, or focused on consumer packaged goods, 00:21:40.529 --> 00:21:43.049 CPG, stemming from Milk Bar, or things like his 00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:45.930 Chili Crunch product. More scalable, less reliant 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.029 on tiny margins, and intense nightly service. 00:21:48.349 --> 00:21:49.910 But he's not stopping, is he? Still planning 00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:52.430 new things. That restless energy seems undimmed. 00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:54.650 Future concepts are already announced. Peach 00:21:54.650 --> 00:21:57.319 Palace at JFK Airport, Super Peach in... Century 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.039 City, L .A. Airport and mall locations. High 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:02.700 traffic again. Exactly. The expansion continues, 00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:06.059 but it looks targeted now, focused on high traffic, 00:22:06.140 --> 00:22:09.299 potentially high scalability locations, reflecting 00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:12.039 probably the hard economic lessons learned over 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.220 the last few years. So while this whole empire 00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:16.960 is expanding and then consolidating, Chang himself 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:20.119 is undergoing another transformation. He's not 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.880 just the chef behind the scenes. He becomes a 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:25.240 major media personality. Seamless transition, 00:22:25.579 --> 00:22:28.339 really. He wasn't content just being a successful 00:22:28.339 --> 00:22:31.220 restaurateur. He leveraged his public image, 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.039 his unique perspective, to become a cultural 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.500 commentator, a writer, a TV star, especially 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:40.079 in the 2010s. How did that start? Guest spots 00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.400 on cooking shows. Yeah, he built credibility 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.660 that way first. Guest judging on things like 00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:47.619 Top Chef, All Stars, MasterChef Australia, participating 00:22:47.619 --> 00:22:50.480 in the established... reality TV hierarchy. But 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.940 the real key to his media evolution, I think, 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:55.299 was his relationship with Anthony Bourdain. Bourdain 00:22:55.299 --> 00:22:57.640 was a big champion of his, wasn't he? Huge champion. 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.000 Bourdain really saw something in Chang's intellectual 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.559 approach, his willingness to be vulnerable and 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:04.759 opinionated. And Bourdain executive produced 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.819 the PBS series The Mind of a Chef. Right. Chang 00:23:07.819 --> 00:23:09.220 hosted the first season of that, starting in 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:12.019 2012. And that show was a crucial pivot point. 00:23:12.140 --> 00:23:14.460 It wasn't just another cooking competition. It 00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.660 was more philosophical, exploring the creative 00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:19.299 process, the anxiety, the culture around food, 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:21.880 often quite self -deprecating. It set the stage 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.519 for bigger platforms. Enter Netflix. Enter Netflix. 00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:27.880 Big time. Chang created, produced, and starred 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.279 in several series for them. The most notable, 00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:34.279 probably, was Ugly Delicious. Ran from 2018 to 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.289 2020. That show was huge. Why did it resonate 00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:40.029 so much? Because it wasn't about perfect plating 00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:43.210 or immaculate technique. It framed food discussions 00:23:43.210 --> 00:23:46.329 through culture, history, debates about authenticity, 00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:49.750 and often through Chang's own very personal anxieties 00:23:49.750 --> 00:23:51.950 about, you know, being an outsider, about what's 00:23:51.950 --> 00:23:54.230 good food. It gave people permission to love 00:23:54.230 --> 00:23:56.809 food that wasn't necessarily pretty or high -end. 00:23:56.910 --> 00:23:59.789 Exactly. It celebrated flavor and story over 00:23:59.789 --> 00:24:02.230 aesthetics. Hugely relatable. What else did he 00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:04.230 do in Netflix? Follow that up with Breakfast 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:06.910 Lunch. and dinner in 2019. More travel focused, 00:24:07.009 --> 00:24:09.470 using food as a backdrop for these intimate conversations 00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:12.349 with other celebrities, Seth Rogen, Kate McKinnon, 00:24:12.369 --> 00:24:15.509 people like that. Okay. Then in 2021, The Next 00:24:15.509 --> 00:24:18.470 Thing You Eat, a documentary series where he 00:24:18.470 --> 00:24:21.049 positioned himself again as that food futurist, 00:24:21.089 --> 00:24:24.390 talking lab -grown meat. ghost kitchens cutting 00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:27.230 edge food tech his media footprint is just incredibly 00:24:27.230 --> 00:24:29.990 wide and even into scripted stuff it really is 00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:33.009 he had an expanded role in season two of hbo's 00:24:33.009 --> 00:24:36.549 treem the new orleans drama he popped up in ifc's 00:24:36.549 --> 00:24:39.690 documentary now in their brilliant parody of 00:24:39.690 --> 00:24:42.170 jiro dreams of sushi oh yeah i remember that 00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:44.690 and he even played a fictionalized version of 00:24:44.690 --> 00:24:47.329 himself in the apple tv plus comedy loot his 00:24:47.329 --> 00:24:49.609 ability to slide between serious documentary 00:24:49.609 --> 00:24:52.799 and self -aware comedy it shows a really understanding 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.019 of media, how to package his persona. And then 00:24:56.019 --> 00:24:58.160 there was the non -culinary win, the game show. 00:24:58.299 --> 00:25:01.299 Ah, yes. 2020. He became the first celebrity 00:25:01.299 --> 00:25:03.700 ever to win the million dollar top prize on the 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:05.880 U .S. version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? 00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:08.160 That's amazing. And he donated the entire million 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.480 to the Southern Smoke Foundation. Which helps 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.140 food and beverage workers. Exactly. Workers in 00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:16.819 crisis. That moment was huge for his public image, 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.619 solidified him as someone with, yes, intellectual 00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:23.019 depth, but also a real sense of community responsibility, 00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.859 giving back to the industry. So it's conquering 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:29.339 TV, but he also made a big splash in print, right? 00:25:29.849 --> 00:25:32.250 With Lucky Peach? Not just a chef, not just a 00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:35.170 TV host. He became a chronicler, a critic of 00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:37.630 the food world through print, too. Co -founded 00:25:37.630 --> 00:25:40.309 the quarterly food magazine Lucky Peach in 2011 00:25:40.309 --> 00:25:42.329 with Peter Meehan again. And this is where it 00:25:42.329 --> 00:25:44.390 gets really interesting, I think. It reveals 00:25:44.390 --> 00:25:47.680 his larger cultural ambition. Lucky Peach wasn't 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.599 published by like Condé Nast or some big food 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.880 media company. No, it was published by McSweeney's. 00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:55.200 The independent literary publisher known for 00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.079 being quirky, intellectual, design focused. That 00:25:58.079 --> 00:25:59.880 was a statement in itself. It signaled right 00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:02.240 away. This magazine aims higher than just recipes 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.680 and restaurant reviews. It's going to engage 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:07.319 serious literary talent, treat food writing as 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.460 culture, as art. And it did, didn't it? It felt 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:12.000 different. It absolutely was a masterpiece of 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.099 food journalism for its time. The first issue 00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:17.160 themed entirely. around ramen. That's focus. 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:20.000 It attracted incredible talent. Bourdain wrote 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.099 for it, Ruth Reichel. It was intelligent, visually 00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:26.099 stunning, often really funny and irreverent. 00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:28.619 But it also got into the gritty realities of 00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:31.779 kitchen life. It elevated food writing. Did it 00:26:31.779 --> 00:26:34.519 sell well? Huge success initially. Issue two 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.900 themed The Sweet Spot hit number three on the 00:26:37.900 --> 00:26:40.079 New York Times bestsellers list for paperback 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:43.059 nonfiction. That's massive for a literary food 00:26:43.059 --> 00:26:46.410 journal. So why did it stop? It ran for 25 issues 00:26:46.410 --> 00:26:50.309 until 2017. Yeah, it ran for a good while. Its 00:26:50.309 --> 00:26:52.769 closure, though, probably signaled a shift in 00:26:52.769 --> 00:26:55.390 the media landscape. Proved that even with superstar 00:26:55.390 --> 00:26:58.470 talent and critical acclaim, that kind of experimental, 00:26:58.730 --> 00:27:00.869 high -production -value print journalism was 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.170 becoming really challenging to sustain financially. 00:27:03.569 --> 00:27:05.529 A familiar story in publishing, unfortunately. 00:27:05.769 --> 00:27:08.150 Gray. So after the magazine closed, he shifted 00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:10.750 to more personal publishing. Released his memoir, 00:27:10.970 --> 00:27:13.650 Eat a Peach, in 2020. Which was highly anticipated. 00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:16.349 Was it just about food? Oh no, much deeper than 00:27:16.349 --> 00:27:19.809 that. It was a really raw, quite profound look 00:27:19.809 --> 00:27:22.230 at his personal life, his struggles with mental 00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:24.950 health, bipolar disorder, anger issues, and the 00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:26.970 immense pressures and anxieties of the restaurant 00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:30.230 industry. Very revealing. And then another cookbook. 00:27:30.450 --> 00:27:32.769 Yeah, but a very different kind. Cooking at Home, 00:27:32.910 --> 00:27:35.809 or How I Learned to Stop Worrying About Recipes 00:27:35.809 --> 00:27:39.210 and Love My Microwave in 2021. Love that title. 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:41.960 Seems very on brand again. Totally. Pushing back 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.059 against complexity, emphasizing simplicity, practicality 00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:47.980 for the everyday home cook. Using your microwave, 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:50.119 it showed him constantly reassessing what cooking 00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.960 means for a modern audience. Still innovating, 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.599 just in a different way. And now, 2024, he's 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:59.519 back on Netflix. But in a totally different format 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:02.500 again. Dinner Time Live with David Chang. Alive. 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:05.500 Well, nearly live. Late night talk show format. 00:28:05.619 --> 00:28:08.500 A talk show. Yeah. Using food and making dinner 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.339 as the backdrop for celebrity conversations. 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:12.720 It's yet another pivot, another format he's trying 00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.299 to conquer. It really underscores his continued 00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:18.400 dedication to media, perhaps even over focusing 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.640 solely on physical restaurants at this stage. 00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:22.539 OK, so we've talked about the restaurants, the 00:28:22.539 --> 00:28:25.519 media empire. Let's talk about his public image 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.640 itself, because early on it was very carefully 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.140 crafted, wasn't it? The whole bad boy fine dining 00:28:31.140 --> 00:28:33.160 thing. Oh, yeah. That was definitely part of 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.059 the initial appeal and buzz. Epicurious described 00:28:36.059 --> 00:28:39.240 him as having a bad boy attitude. And it wasn't 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:41.859 just talk. It was reflected in how he ran the 00:28:41.859 --> 00:28:45.059 places. Like at Noodle Bar. Exactly. Those specific 00:28:45.059 --> 00:28:47.500 operational choices were part of his rebellion. 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.440 No reservations whatsoever creating those lines, 00:28:50.500 --> 00:28:53.440 that hype. And very controversially at the time, 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:56.119 absolutely no vegetarian options initially. Wow. 00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.640 That's a statement. Huge statement. It was a 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.200 clear signal against that traditional fine dining 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.599 mantra of the customer is always right or bending 00:29:04.599 --> 00:29:07.000 over backwards for every dietary request. It 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:09.539 basically said, this is our vision. This is our 00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:11.779 food. Take it or leave it. Come to us on our 00:29:11.779 --> 00:29:14.539 terms. And he wasn't afraid to speak his mind 00:29:14.539 --> 00:29:16.440 about others in the industry either. Not at all. 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:18.680 He wasn't afraid to take public shots. The most 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.220 famous example probably was in 2009. He caused 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.619 a pretty big stir with comments about California 00:29:24.619 --> 00:29:27.400 chefs. What did he say? He told Anthony Bourdain 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:29.559 famously something like, they don't manipulate 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.000 food, they just put figs on a plate. Dismissing 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:36.839 that whole farm to table ingredient focused ethos. 00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:40.009 Ouch. That must have ruffled some feathers. Oh, 00:29:40.049 --> 00:29:42.809 definitely. That kind of blunt, maybe aggressive 00:29:42.809 --> 00:29:45.970 honesty, undeniably part of his brand. It kept 00:29:45.970 --> 00:29:47.930 him at the center of the conversation, even if 00:29:47.930 --> 00:29:50.369 it created friction. Was it genuine opinion, 00:29:50.549 --> 00:29:53.190 do you think? Or was it also like a calculated 00:29:53.190 --> 00:29:55.930 media strategy, build the brand? Probably a bit 00:29:55.930 --> 00:29:58.869 of both, right? Hard to untangle. But regardless, 00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:03.009 it worked. It cemented his image as this outspoken, 00:30:03.089 --> 00:30:06.170 iconoclastic New Yorker shaking things up. Which 00:30:06.170 --> 00:30:08.369 makes the contrast with his philanthropic work 00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:10.750 really interesting. That bad boy image versus 00:30:10.750 --> 00:30:13.509 his community roles. It's a fascinating tension 00:30:13.509 --> 00:30:16.130 because he is seriously involved in combating 00:30:16.130 --> 00:30:18.910 food insecurity, serves on the food council at 00:30:18.910 --> 00:30:21.410 City Harvest, the culinary council at Food Bank 00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:24.049 for New York City. These are major hunger relief 00:30:24.049 --> 00:30:26.250 organizations. Focused on local need in New York. 00:30:26.349 --> 00:30:28.230 Exactly. And he's also on the board of trustees 00:30:28.230 --> 00:30:31.369 at MOFAD, the Museum of Food and Drink in NYC. 00:30:31.490 --> 00:30:33.430 Which is about food history and culture. Right. 00:30:33.509 --> 00:30:36.309 So it shows this deep commitment to the intellectual 00:30:36.309 --> 00:30:39.269 side, the societal role of food that goes way 00:30:39.269 --> 00:30:42.369 beyond just running restaurants for profit. But 00:30:42.369 --> 00:30:44.990 that commitment to community and his business 00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:48.269 side, they collided pretty spectacularly in 2024, 00:30:48.650 --> 00:30:51.390 didn't they? With the whole chili crunch trademark 00:30:51.390 --> 00:30:54.750 thing. Oh, boy. Yeah. That became a major PR 00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:57.509 headache for Momofuku, and it perfectly captured 00:30:57.509 --> 00:31:00.250 the complexities, maybe the moral hazards, that 00:31:00.250 --> 00:31:03.490 arise when a brand like his, built on being disruptive, 00:31:03.789 --> 00:31:06.509 moves heavily into the consumer packaged goods 00:31:06.509 --> 00:31:10.029 CPG market. What happened exactly? Momofuku started 00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:12.849 sending cease and desist letters to other companies, 00:31:13.089 --> 00:31:15.150 mostly smaller businesses, some of them Asian 00:31:15.150 --> 00:31:17.410 -American owned, who were using the term chili 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:20.210 crunch or chili crunch on their products. Because 00:31:20.210 --> 00:31:22.950 Momofuku had trademarked chili crunch. They had 00:31:22.950 --> 00:31:25.430 the trademark, yes, but the optics were terrible. 00:31:25.670 --> 00:31:27.890 It looked like this big corporation led by the 00:31:27.890 --> 00:31:29.670 guy who used to be the anti -establishment rebel 00:31:29.670 --> 00:31:32.589 was now bullying small entrepreneurs making a 00:31:32.589 --> 00:31:35.109 similar product, especially sensitive given the 00:31:35.109 --> 00:31:37.450 shared Asian heritage aspect for some of the 00:31:37.450 --> 00:31:39.339 brands. What was Momofuku? Momofuku's defense. 00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:42.500 They argued in a statement to the LA Times that 00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:44.599 the trademark wasn't meant to stifle competition, 00:31:44.859 --> 00:31:47.779 but was necessary for legal differentiation in 00:31:47.779 --> 00:31:50.420 a crowded market. They said they intentionally 00:31:50.420 --> 00:31:53.559 picked chili crunch specifically to stand out 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:55.880 from the broader, maybe more generic chili crisp 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.500 category, which legally might make sense in CPG. 00:31:59.660 --> 00:32:02.380 If a name is too descriptive, it's hard to defend. 00:32:02.859 --> 00:32:04.980 Technically, yes. That's often the challenge. 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.779 They were likely trying to secure a unique legal 00:32:07.779 --> 00:32:10.400 identity for their product in a booming category. 00:32:10.779 --> 00:32:13.119 But the public reaction wasn't about trademark 00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.259 law nuance. It was overwhelmingly negative. People 00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:19.099 saw it as hypocritical as punching down. So how 00:32:19.099 --> 00:32:22.420 do they handle it? It turned into really a masterclass 00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:25.039 in modern crisis management. They realized quickly 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:27.700 that brand authenticity and community goodwill 00:32:27.700 --> 00:32:30.200 were way more valuable in the long run than trying 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.960 to legally enforce that specific trademark term. 00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.140 So they backed down. Completely. On April 12th, 00:32:36.140 --> 00:32:39.339 2024, Chang himself went on his own podcast, 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.579 The Dave Chang Show, and issued a very public, 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.390 very direct apology. said Momofuku hadn't intended 00:32:46.390 --> 00:32:49.130 to upset people, acknowledge the feedback, and, 00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:51.410 crucially, announce they would no longer attempt 00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:54.589 to enforce the Chili Crunch trademark. Wow. That's 00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:57.490 a fast retreat. Very fast. It showed that even 00:32:57.490 --> 00:32:59.609 someone with his level of fame and media control 00:32:59.609 --> 00:33:02.430 has to be incredibly responsive to public sentiment, 00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:04.329 especially to the community he came from and 00:33:04.329 --> 00:33:07.289 often represents. Brand perception trumped legal 00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:10.869 strategy. So through all of this, the expansion, 00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:13.549 the closures, the media fame, the controversies, 00:33:13.549 --> 00:33:16.630 the official awards kept coming, right? Consistently. 00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:18.650 The industry recognition never really stopped. 00:33:18.890 --> 00:33:21.589 He got five James Beard Foundation Awards between 00:33:21.589 --> 00:33:24.349 2007 and 2014 alone. Covering the whole spectrum. 00:33:24.549 --> 00:33:27.190 Pretty much. Rising Star Chef early on, then 00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:29.690 Best Chef NYC for some bar, Best New Restaurant 00:33:29.690 --> 00:33:31.910 for Co., and eventually the big one, Outstanding 00:33:31.910 --> 00:33:33.730 Chef for the whole group's impact. And recognition 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:35.900 beyond just the food world, too. Definitely. 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.700 Time magazine named him one of their 200 most 00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:41.720 influential people way back in 2010. That shows 00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.440 his cultural impact transcended the kitchen early 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.000 on. So his career, when you look back, it's this 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.660 incredible balancing act. It really is. Maintaining 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:52.980 that world class fine dining pedigree while constantly 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.460 disrupting industry norms, pushing boundaries 00:33:55.460 --> 00:33:58.559 and somehow always ensuring his brand stay centered 00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.740 on his own restless, outspoken, complex personality. 00:34:02.650 --> 00:34:05.890 Hashtag outro tro. So yeah, we've traced David 00:34:05.890 --> 00:34:08.250 Chang's evolution. From, you know, competitive 00:34:08.250 --> 00:34:11.829 junior golfer and religious studies major. Which 00:34:11.829 --> 00:34:14.690 still feels wild. Right. Through that intense 00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:16.809 culinary training, becoming a two Michelin star 00:34:16.809 --> 00:34:19.469 winner, a successful publisher, host of multiple 00:34:19.469 --> 00:34:22.130 major Netflix shows, his career is just defined 00:34:22.130 --> 00:34:25.289 by this restless, almost aggressive energy. And 00:34:25.289 --> 00:34:27.989 this unique ability he has to synthesize really 00:34:27.989 --> 00:34:30.590 high -level, serious cuisine with concepts that 00:34:30.590 --> 00:34:32.730 are incredibly approachable, often inspired by 00:34:32.730 --> 00:34:35.289 street food, and highly, highly marketable. He 00:34:35.289 --> 00:34:37.579 didn't just create a restaurant group. He really 00:34:37.579 --> 00:34:39.900 did define an attitude, didn't he? Pushing back 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:42.380 against that perceived stiffness, that hierarchy 00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:45.579 of the old culinary world. Absolutely. Inviting 00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:48.780 high technique into casual, loud settings. Making 00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:52.079 excellence feel less. Exclusive, maybe. Yeah. 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.000 But as we saw, this whole glamorous structure, 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:57.739 it still exists within these intense, sometimes 00:34:57.739 --> 00:35:00.800 brutal, volatile business realities. The closures 00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:04.199 of Coe, of Sambar, these iconic flagships. It 00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:06.820 illustrates that perfectly. Superstar status, 00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:10.260 James Beard Awards, Michelin stars. None of that 00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:12.500 exempts you from the fundamental economic pressures 00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:14.519 of the industry, especially when you're committed 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:16.639 to high labor costs, high quality ingredients, 00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:19.739 particularly in the post 2020 world. His journey 00:35:19.739 --> 00:35:22.079 is. also just a masterclass in leveraging a personal 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:24.199 brand right into so many different successful 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.739 ventures totally whether it's stadium fast food 00:35:26.739 --> 00:35:29.280 with fuku a digital delivery app like ando way 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.860 ahead of its time or a prestigious literary magazine 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:34.159 like lucky peach he's constantly shown that if 00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:36.199 a format whether it's a specific type of fine 00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:38.679 dining a magazine even a physical restaurant 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:42.010 location if It becomes training, either creatively 00:35:42.010 --> 00:35:44.670 or financially. He moves on. He reinvents the 00:35:44.670 --> 00:35:46.650 model or just walks away and starts something 00:35:46.650 --> 00:35:49.909 new. The pivot we're seeing now towards CPG, 00:35:49.949 --> 00:35:52.730 towards more scalable concepts like Fuku, it 00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:55.449 feels like a very strategic evolution, away from 00:35:55.449 --> 00:35:57.909 relying solely on that high -risk, high -artistry 00:35:57.909 --> 00:36:00.309 restaurant model. Which brings us to our final 00:36:00.309 --> 00:36:03.349 provocative thought for you, listening. David 00:36:03.349 --> 00:36:06.480 Chang's genius, his entire career, has consistently 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.679 thrived on change, on disruption, maybe even 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.619 on a degree of chaos. Scarcity was part of the 00:36:12.619 --> 00:36:15.960 co -model. His success has often involved dismantling 00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:18.440 the very structures he himself built. Constant 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:20.860 reinvention. So what happens now? What happens 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:23.239 when a figure so defined by that constant restless 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.659 change, especially in the volatile world of physical 00:36:25.659 --> 00:36:27.900 restaurants, is now focusing at least partly 00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:31.079 on the established, repetitive daily grind of 00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:33.360 a nightly live talk show like Dinner Time Live? 00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:36.409 It's a great question. Does his creative, disruptive 00:36:36.409 --> 00:36:39.730 energy find a new outlet within that TV structure, 00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:43.210 new constraints to push against? Or is it a format 00:36:43.210 --> 00:36:46.170 that, by its very nature, steady, predictable, 00:36:46.429 --> 00:36:48.670 needing to please a broad audience night after 00:36:48.670 --> 00:36:51.349 night might inevitably constrain the very restlessness, 00:36:51.489 --> 00:36:54.150 the desire for the next big thing that made him 00:36:54.150 --> 00:36:55.590 David Chang in the first place? Something to 00:36:55.590 --> 00:36:56.010 think about.