WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.640 Welcome to the deep dive. We're here to basically 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:04.799 take all that source material you've provided 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:09.080 and really boil it down into the quickest, most, 00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:11.480 well, fascinating path to knowing what's what. 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.560 Exactly. Cutting right to the chase. And today 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:17.820 we are tackling a, let's call it, a high velocity 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:21.539 maximalist journey ourselves. We're diving into 00:00:21.789 --> 00:00:25.710 the careers, the minds of Daniel Kwan and Daniel 00:00:25.710 --> 00:00:28.589 Scheiner. Ah, yes. The Daniels. Everyone knows 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:30.750 them now. Universally known, yeah. And these 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:33.189 two, I mean, they've really carved out this incredible 00:00:33.189 --> 00:00:35.909 path, haven't they? From, you know, indie YouTube 00:00:35.909 --> 00:00:38.429 stuff, viral hits, messing around with music 00:00:38.429 --> 00:00:40.530 videos. Right, the short form experiments. All 00:00:40.530 --> 00:00:42.829 the way to becoming these, like, architects of 00:00:42.829 --> 00:00:46.079 a whole new style of absurdist cinema. And of 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:47.859 course, that just culminated in that absolutely 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:50.420 historic sweep at the Academy Awards. It's an 00:00:50.420 --> 00:00:53.179 amazing trajectory. So our mission today is pretty 00:00:53.179 --> 00:00:56.299 clear, quickly, but really thoroughly unpack 00:00:56.299 --> 00:00:58.439 that whole journey for you. We're not just going 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:00.840 to list awards, though. We want to trace the 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:03.700 specific steps, those surprising, you know, artistic 00:01:03.700 --> 00:01:06.200 decisions and also the business side of things 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:08.140 that really define their huge impact. They're 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:10.140 pushing boundaries. Definitely pushing boundaries. 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.459 And maybe we should start with the basics, the 00:01:12.459 --> 00:01:15.750 foundation, just who are they? Good point. You've 00:01:15.750 --> 00:01:19.069 got Daniel Kwan, born 1988, Westboro, Massachusetts. 00:01:19.430 --> 00:01:21.590 And then Daniel Scheiner, born just a year earlier, 00:01:21.810 --> 00:01:24.790 1987, down in Birmingham, Alabama. So East Coast 00:01:24.790 --> 00:01:28.189 meets the South, Massachusetts and Alabama. Pretty 00:01:28.189 --> 00:01:29.849 different backgrounds, you'd think? You would. 00:01:30.189 --> 00:01:32.870 And the place where these two seemingly quite 00:01:32.870 --> 00:01:35.670 different paths converged, Emerson College in 00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:38.109 Boston. Right. Both studied film there. Scheiner 00:01:38.109 --> 00:01:41.609 graduated in 09, Kwan in 2010. And that's really 00:01:41.609 --> 00:01:43.390 where their whole collective identity starts, 00:01:43.670 --> 00:01:45.989 right? going back to maybe 2007, even, while 00:01:45.989 --> 00:01:48.250 they were still there, it's always been about 00:01:48.250 --> 00:01:51.769 this collaboration. Writing, directing, producing. 00:01:51.969 --> 00:01:54.230 Yeah, they're like this two -headed creative 00:01:54.230 --> 00:01:57.829 force. It really is that East meets South meets, 00:01:57.829 --> 00:02:01.909 well, meets weird. Yeah, meets weird is a good 00:02:01.909 --> 00:02:04.670 way to put it. And if you really want to get 00:02:04.670 --> 00:02:09.990 the complexity, the visual density, the sheer 00:02:09.990 --> 00:02:12.870 audacity, really, of their big movies. Everything. 00:02:13.099 --> 00:02:16.280 Everywhere. Exactly. You absolutely have to spend 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:18.659 some time looking at their music video work first. 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:20.599 That was their lab. Their laboratory, yeah. Totally. 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.080 That short form, often low budget world, is where 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.379 they just hammered out their whole visual style. 00:02:26.979 --> 00:02:29.379 Kinetic, physically bizarre sometimes. Often 00:02:29.379 --> 00:02:32.020 physically bizarre. Right. And always high concept, 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:34.580 but done really efficiently, really fast. They 00:02:34.580 --> 00:02:36.719 started being active around 2007, but the music 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.210 video focus really kicked in around 2011. And 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:42.830 that period is so key, isn't it? Because it taught 00:02:42.830 --> 00:02:45.050 them how to get the biggest bang for their buck, 00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:48.050 essentially. Maximize effect, minimize budget. 00:02:48.270 --> 00:02:50.430 Which is totally central to that maximalist thing 00:02:50.430 --> 00:02:52.710 they do now. They didn't have money for huge 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:55.610 CGI or massive sets back then. So it was all 00:02:55.610 --> 00:02:57.990 practical effects, super quick editing and just 00:02:57.990 --> 00:02:59.990 getting these really committed, sometimes way 00:02:59.990 --> 00:03:02.469 over the top physical performances. And that 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:04.449 Emerson connection, it wasn't just about the 00:03:04.449 --> 00:03:07.030 two of them meeting. It immediately started building 00:03:07.030 --> 00:03:08.830 their creative circle. Oh right, you mentioned 00:03:08.830 --> 00:03:11.509 Sunita Mani earlier. Exactly. Crucially, they 00:03:11.509 --> 00:03:14.159 were at Emerson with her. And this is important 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:16.199 context because you see these early relationships 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:19.780 forming like the backbone of their later professional 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:22.639 work. So Manny stars with Kwan later on. In their 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.919 most famous, most viral music video. Yeah, which 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.300 obviously we have to talk about turned down for 00:03:28.300 --> 00:03:33.099 what? DJ Snake, Lil Jon, 2013? Oh yeah, that 00:03:33.099 --> 00:03:36.759 video is just... It's pure Daniels, undiluted. 00:03:36.860 --> 00:03:38.520 If you haven't seen it, you need to. It's like 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.560 a master class in controlled chaos, right? Absurdist 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:43.919 premise cranked to 11. And Quan himself is starring 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.900 in it, alongside Manny. They're doing this completely 00:03:46.900 --> 00:03:51.360 bizarre, sexually charged, but also incredibly 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.240 destructive floor -humping dance -off. Yeah, 00:03:54.500 --> 00:03:56.120 crashing through walls, breaking everything. 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:58.560 It's nuts. All set to that driving beat. And 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.460 that specific video got them one of their two 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:03.979 Grammy nominations. Best short form music video. 00:04:04.090 --> 00:04:06.830 Which is incredible recognition. Think about 00:04:06.830 --> 00:04:09.770 it. Kwan, the co -director, is literally performing 00:04:09.770 --> 00:04:12.750 this ridiculous high -energy physical comedy 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:15.930 that basically defines their whole vibe. Right. 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:18.870 Getting Grammy nods validates that, yeah, this 00:04:18.870 --> 00:04:21.689 unique way of turning music into visual chaos, 00:04:22.449 --> 00:04:25.050 it works. It resonates globally. It absolutely 00:04:25.050 --> 00:04:27.170 went viral way before there were big feature 00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:29.209 film names. But that wasn't their first Grammy 00:04:29.209 --> 00:04:31.689 nomination, was it? No, their first nod was actually 00:04:31.689 --> 00:04:34.750 the year before 2013. ceremony for work done 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:37.470 in 2012. It was for Foster the People's Houdini. 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:39.930 OK. So they were getting high level recognition 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:42.649 pretty early on. Definitely. But Turn Down for 00:04:42.649 --> 00:04:45.449 What was the one that really cemented the reputation 00:04:45.449 --> 00:04:48.790 for just unapologetic weirdness. And it wasn't 00:04:48.790 --> 00:04:50.889 just those big hits. They worked with other pretty 00:04:50.889 --> 00:04:53.529 high profile respected bands too. Yeah. Showed 00:04:53.529 --> 00:04:55.769 some versatility. They did videos for The Shins, 00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:59.560 Tenacious D. Rock comedy legends. Right. And 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.060 Manchester Orchestra, they did Simple Math, and 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:04.399 later on, The Alien. So this whole period, it 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.600 wasn't just fun and games. It was like this intense, 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:09.779 practical training ground. Absolutely. A visual 00:05:09.779 --> 00:05:12.720 effects boot camp, almost. Yeah. Developing techniques 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:14.939 on the fly that they'd later blow up for the 00:05:14.939 --> 00:05:17.100 multiverse. And there's another fascinating piece 00:05:17.100 --> 00:05:19.220 here, something about Daniel Kwan specifically. 00:05:19.540 --> 00:05:21.579 It says a lot about his values, I think. You 00:05:21.579 --> 00:05:24.540 mean the WDMV thing. Exactly. We Direct Music 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:27.639 Videos, he co -founded that group in 2018. Yeah, 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:29.579 that's a real... telling detail isn't it? It 00:05:29.579 --> 00:05:32.759 gives you another layer. Their whole stated goal 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:36.699 is about promoting sustainable directorial labor 00:05:36.699 --> 00:05:39.639 practices in the music video industry. So what 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:42.060 does that mean practically for people listening? 00:05:42.220 --> 00:05:43.959 Well you gotta understand the music video world 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.279 can be pretty brutal. It's often low budget, 00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:48.819 super chaotic schedules. Directors are asked 00:05:48.819 --> 00:05:51.600 to do so much work under insane deadlines. Right 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.139 and maybe not get paid properly or lose rights 00:05:54.139 --> 00:05:57.639 to their work. All of that. So Kron This filmmaker 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.459 known for creating visual chaos is actually out 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:03.680 there fighting for like Fairness and stability 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.199 behind the camera maximum fairness for maximum 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:10.699 chaos, huh? Kind of it shows he wasn't just about 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:13.100 making the coolest video. He was trying to make 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:16.680 the whole system work better for creators That 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:19.860 sincerity mixed with the absurdity That's a really 00:06:19.860 --> 00:06:21.699 interesting tension. Yeah, it really sets the 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:23.920 stage for what comes next doesn't it speaking 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.430 of what comes next that big leap from you know, 00:06:27.709 --> 00:06:30.810 three -minute videos to 90 -minute movies. That 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:33.730 arrived in 2016. Swiss Army Man. Yeah, that was 00:06:33.730 --> 00:06:35.410 the moment. They're a full -on transition to 00:06:35.410 --> 00:06:37.550 features. And if you had to slap a genre label 00:06:37.550 --> 00:06:41.250 on it, maximalist, absurdist comedy drama seems 00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:43.370 about right. It's as good as any, I guess. You 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:45.230 really can't talk about Swiss Army Man without 00:06:45.230 --> 00:06:47.550 hitting the premise head -on. Yeah. Because it, 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:50.069 uh, it definitely split audiences. Right. Paul 00:06:50.069 --> 00:06:53.149 Danno plays a guy stranded on an island suicidal, 00:06:53.170 --> 00:06:56.069 and he finds... Well, he finds Daniel Radcliffe 00:06:56.069 --> 00:06:58.889 playing a corpse, a very flatulent multi -purpose 00:06:58.889 --> 00:07:01.370 corpse, the human Swiss army knife of the title. 00:07:01.449 --> 00:07:04.689 Exactly. And the maybe the genius of it or the 00:07:04.689 --> 00:07:06.990 madness, depending on your view, is that they 00:07:06.990 --> 00:07:11.810 took this really juvenile kind of gross premise. 00:07:12.230 --> 00:07:14.750 I mean, a movie built on fart jokes and used 00:07:14.750 --> 00:07:17.629 it to talk about really profound things, loneliness, 00:07:18.230 --> 00:07:22.259 shame. male intimacy in a really unconventional 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:24.399 way. It's that high absurdity again, but this 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.579 time it feels like it's masking something deeply 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:28.899 emotional. Right. And that's where the reception 00:07:28.899 --> 00:07:31.100 gets interesting. Critics, for the most part, 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.259 really loved it. They saw the originality. But 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:36.600 audiences... Polarized is putting it mildly. 00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:38.720 Weren't there reports of people walking out of 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.899 the Sundance prepared? Oh yeah, famous walkouts. 00:07:41.180 --> 00:07:44.399 Just too weird for some. But... And this is key, 00:07:44.540 --> 00:07:46.740 the industry noticed. They won the directing 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.139 award at Sundance that year, 2016. Dramatic category. 00:07:50.259 --> 00:07:52.439 That Sundance win is huge, though. It's like 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:54.360 the industry saying, OK, yeah, this is out there, 00:07:54.620 --> 00:07:57.240 really out there. But the talent, undeniable. 00:07:57.459 --> 00:07:59.439 Exactly. It validated their whole approach, chasing 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.040 that wild concept all the way, proving they could 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.079 keep that chaotic energy going for a full feature. 00:08:04.500 --> 00:08:06.680 Now, before they hit the absolute stratosphere 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.620 with everything everywhere, they were also doing 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:11.019 work at TV, right? Cutting their teeth there, 00:08:11.100 --> 00:08:14.000 too. Yeah. That's a pretty common path. Good 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:16.579 practice managing projects, casing, just on a 00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:18.819 smaller screen. They share directing credits 00:08:18.819 --> 00:08:22.199 on a few things. Some adult swim shows like NTSF, 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.019 SDSUV, and Children's Hospital. Right. And later 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:28.259 on, Awkwafina is Nora from Queens. They did the 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:30.600 Grandma Unchill episode. Mm -hmm. But what's 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:32.259 also interesting here is you see them starting 00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:35.379 to define their individual styles a bit too outside 00:08:35.379 --> 00:08:38.019 of the partnership. Oh, okay. So solo work. Yeah, 00:08:38.019 --> 00:08:40.000 some specialized solo directing credits that 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:41.759 kind of hint at their different sensibilities. 00:08:42.019 --> 00:08:44.879 Like what? Well, Daniel Kwan directed an episode 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:47.539 of Legion, you know, the FX show, Chapter 23. 00:08:47.789 --> 00:08:51.049 Ah, that makes perfect sense. Legion is all about 00:08:51.049 --> 00:08:55.350 unreliable reality. Crazy visuals. Perfect playground 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:58.090 for him. Exactly. Practicing that reality -bending 00:08:58.090 --> 00:09:01.049 stuff. A great warm -up for multiverse hopping, 00:09:01.169 --> 00:09:04.129 you could say. And Shiner. Shiner directed an 00:09:04.129 --> 00:09:06.870 episode of that dark comedy on becoming a god 00:09:06.870 --> 00:09:09.549 in central Florida. The episode was called Many 00:09:09.549 --> 00:09:12.110 Masters. Okay, yeah. That feels more like his 00:09:12.110 --> 00:09:14.629 vibe, too. Darker, maybe more grounded comedy. 00:09:15.049 --> 00:09:17.649 I think so. often a bit more cynical, perhaps. 00:09:18.409 --> 00:09:21.190 Which leads us nicely into his solo feature film. 00:09:21.509 --> 00:09:23.090 Right, he directed his own movie separately. 00:09:23.190 --> 00:09:27.049 Yeah, in 2019. The Death of Dick Long. It often 00:09:27.049 --> 00:09:30.490 gets overlooked because, well, everything everywhere 00:09:30.490 --> 00:09:33.190 was such a supernova. Understandable. What was 00:09:33.190 --> 00:09:36.470 it like? It's pure shiner, I'd say. Black comedy 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:39.940 drama. It also premiered at Sundance 2019. Got 00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:42.779 good reviews for being this really specific kind 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:45.759 of small town, dark, southern humor. And he was 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:47.960 really involved in it, wasn't he? More than just 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:50.100 directing. Oh, yeah. He acted in it. He played 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:52.639 Dick Long. Yeah. And even performed a song for 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:55.740 the soundtrack. It's been a while. Wow. OK, so 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:58.769 really diving in. Totally immersed. And the tone, 00:09:59.009 --> 00:10:00.850 it's much more grounded, more regional than the 00:10:00.850 --> 00:10:03.769 stuff they do together. It feels very like Southern 00:10:03.769 --> 00:10:06.309 Gothic black comedy. So it suggests his personal 00:10:06.309 --> 00:10:08.070 style might lean a bit differently when he's 00:10:08.070 --> 00:10:10.509 on his own? I think it does. Towards character 00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:13.070 -driven, maybe slightly macabre stories, rooted 00:10:13.070 --> 00:10:15.169 in that Alabama background he knows so well. 00:10:15.629 --> 00:10:18.090 Still weird, but a different flavor of weird. 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:20.830 Interesting. And just before they hit the jackpot, 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:23.009 there was one project that didn't happen right, 00:10:23.090 --> 00:10:25.289 a little speed bump. Ah, yeah, the Kurt Vonnegut 00:10:25.289 --> 00:10:28.120 adaptation. Cat's Cradle. They were attached 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.360 to direct a TV version developed by Noah Hawley 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.879 who did Fargo. That sounds amazing. What happened? 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:36.759 Well the source material just says it was not 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.000 picked up. Hollywood being Hollywood I guess. 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.980 Projects fall through even for super talented 00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:45.580 people. Exactly. But maybe it was fate clearing 00:10:45.580 --> 00:10:48.980 the paths for them to pivot towards Well towards 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:51.440 everything everywhere and what a pivot it was 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:54.919 everything everywhere all at once or EEA Oh as 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:57.100 everyone calls it Yeah, the film that didn't 00:10:57.100 --> 00:10:59.179 just change their careers kind of changed the 00:10:59.179 --> 00:11:01.379 landscape for indie film, didn't it? It really 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:03.179 feels like it did so this whole thing started 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:05.899 back in 2017 Yeah, that's when it was announced 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:09.039 the Daniels writing directing producing alongside 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.039 their regular partner Jonathan Wang And significantly, 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.679 the Russo Brothers were involved as executive 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.600 producers. OK, the Russo Brothers connection 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.220 is big. They were fresh off like peak Marvel 00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:23.799 success. Exactly. Having them on board lent this 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:27.659 very indie, very high concept project some serious 00:11:27.659 --> 00:11:30.000 institutional weight. And then fast forward to 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:32.700 March 2022, it gets released and it just takes 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:35.759 off. Immediately. Widespread critical acclaim 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:38.659 and box office success. barely covers it. Yeah, 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.779 let's put some specifics on that success. It 00:11:40.779 --> 00:11:45.139 became A24's highest -grossing film ever. Ever. 00:11:45.580 --> 00:11:48.159 It was huge for A24 and proved something really 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.590 important. Audiences were absolutely starved 00:11:51.590 --> 00:11:54.350 for originality, especially originality mixed 00:11:54.350 --> 00:11:56.830 with genuine heart. It wasn't just a critic starling. 00:11:56.889 --> 00:12:00.210 It was a real global hit. Definitely. And propelled 00:12:00.210 --> 00:12:02.590 by that incredible cast. Michelle Yeoh, obviously 00:12:02.590 --> 00:12:05.590 just phenomenal. But also Stephanie Su, Ki Hui 00:12:05.590 --> 00:12:07.970 Kwan's amazing comeback. James Hong, Jamie Lee 00:12:07.970 --> 00:12:11.460 Curtis. Legends and rising stars just going all 00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:14.279 in. All in on this story about, you know, laundromat 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.480 owner, her taxes, and saving the multiverse. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.279 It sounds ridiculous when you say it like that. 00:12:18.379 --> 00:12:20.539 It does. But the history part really kicks in 00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:22.960 when you look at the awards. The sheer scale 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.940 of the recognition. 11 Oscar nominations, one 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:28.539 seven. That's not just winning, that's dominating. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.340 Total domination. And for the Daniels themselves, 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:33.620 they got the big three. Best picture as producers, 00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:36.360 best director, and best original screenplay. 00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:39.649 A complete sweep of the top categories for them. 00:12:40.029 --> 00:12:42.169 But it went way beyond the Oscars, didn't it? 00:12:42.330 --> 00:12:44.730 Oh, absolutely. This is where we get to that 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:46.629 Triple Crown thing with the guilds. They won 00:12:46.629 --> 00:12:49.070 the DGA award for directing. Directors Guild. 00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:52.350 The PGA for producing. The Dales. And the WGA 00:12:52.350 --> 00:12:55.190 for the screenplay. Writers Guild. OK, so why 00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:57.289 is winning all three of those guild awards such 00:12:57.289 --> 00:13:00.309 a big deal? For the listener, what does that 00:13:00.309 --> 00:13:03.289 signify? It's huge, because those awards are 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:06.029 voted on by their peers. Directors voting for 00:13:06.029 --> 00:13:07.970 directors, writers for writers, producers for 00:13:07.970 --> 00:13:11.070 producers. Ah, okay. So it's not just critics 00:13:11.070 --> 00:13:14.009 or Academy members. It's the actual professionals 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.470 in those fields saying this was the best work 00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:18.990 of the year. Precisely. It shows this incredible 00:13:18.990 --> 00:13:21.309 consensus within the industry across all the 00:13:21.309 --> 00:13:23.950 major crafts. It validates their achievement 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:26.169 on a whole different level than just, you know, 00:13:26.409 --> 00:13:28.700 critical claim. And that level of validation 00:13:28.700 --> 00:13:31.120 leads to something pretty mind -blowing. Yeah, 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.240 this is the jaw -dropper. I do. In the math, 00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:35.820 crunch the numbers from all the awards groups. 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:40.159 All the critics groups, festivals, guilds. Everything. 00:13:40.460 --> 00:13:43.000 Everything. And they calculated that everything 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.940 everywhere all at once actually surpassed The 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.360 Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King. Peter 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.279 Jackson's epic from 2003. As the most awarded 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:54.000 film of all time. Okay, I have to pause on that. 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.850 That is... That's staggering. A film that felt 00:13:56.850 --> 00:14:00.629 so indie, so personal, driven by practical effects 00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:02.909 mostly. I'm a laundromat owner. Officially got 00:14:02.909 --> 00:14:06.029 more awards than this massive decade -defining 00:14:06.029 --> 00:14:09.210 fantasy blockbuster built on huge budgets and 00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:12.009 armies. It's wild, isn't it? You know, you have 00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:14.409 to be careful with most awarded metrics. They 00:14:14.409 --> 00:14:16.570 aggregate a lot of different groups. But still, 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:19.389 the sheer breadth of wins is undeniable. It shows 00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:22.269 this near -universal agreement across the entire 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:24.750 global film world. Right. It wasn't just the 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:26.809 big awards. It was almost everyone recognizing 00:14:26.809 --> 00:14:28.389 it. Exactly. They cleaned up at the Critics' 00:14:28.490 --> 00:14:30.769 Choice Awards, swept the Independent Spirit Awards. 00:14:31.210 --> 00:14:33.529 So mainstream critics and the indie scene were 00:14:33.529 --> 00:14:36.509 totally aligned. And it even won in genre categories 00:14:36.509 --> 00:14:39.210 that often ignored the big prestige pictures. 00:14:39.509 --> 00:14:41.960 Yeah, that's another sign of how you It won the 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.159 Nebula Award, the Ray Bradbury Award, specifically 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:47.879 for Outstanding Dramatic Presentation. That's 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.399 a major science fiction award. Recognizing its 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.659 sci -fi core. And it also won the Saturn Award 00:14:52.659 --> 00:14:55.480 for Best Fantasy Film. Getting that kind of cross 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.360 -genre validation simultaneously. Super rare. 00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:00.360 It speaks to how the film just worked on so many 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.240 different levels. Now, amidst all this success, 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.899 there's a really important personal connection 00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:08.039 here for Daniel Kwan, isn't there? Something 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.269 that came out of making the film itself. Yes, 00:15:10.409 --> 00:15:12.289 absolutely. The source material is clear on this. 00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:15.509 He was actually diagnosed with Attention Deficit 00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:18.950 Hyperactivity Disorder, ADHD, after he started 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:21.149 researching the condition while writing and developing 00:15:21.149 --> 00:15:24.350 everything everywhere. Wow. Okay. That adds a 00:15:24.350 --> 00:15:26.350 whole new layer. That reframes the entire film 00:15:26.350 --> 00:15:28.250 almost. It goes from being just high -concept 00:15:28.250 --> 00:15:30.730 sci -fi to something deeply personal. Completely. 00:15:30.850 --> 00:15:33.409 You can suddenly see the film's structure, its 00:15:33.409 --> 00:15:36.870 style, as maybe mirroring the cognitive experience 00:15:36.870 --> 00:15:40.669 of ADHD. How so? Like, the constant jumping between 00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:43.370 universes. Yeah, the rapid fire cuts, the feeling 00:15:43.370 --> 00:15:45.990 of being overwhelmed by sensory information, 00:15:46.850 --> 00:15:49.610 Evelyn's difficulty focusing on just one reality. 00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:52.409 And maybe that tendency to hyper -focus on something 00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:54.870 mundane, like the tax receipts, even when the 00:15:54.870 --> 00:15:57.669 whole universe is collapsing. Exactly. That whole 00:15:57.669 --> 00:16:00.889 maximalist kinetic style, which some people found, 00:16:00.889 --> 00:16:03.820 you know, maybe too much, too overwhelming. you 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.440 can read it as a literal representation of how 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.740 his mind works. So the film's core message about 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:11.139 finding meaning and connection, even when everything 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:13.559 feels chaotic and overwhelming. It gains this 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.559 incredible sincerity because... it's rooted in 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.840 his own self -discovery during the process. Putting 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.799 that level of personal vulnerability into a huge 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.480 multiverse action comedy, that's probably why 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.200 it hit so hard for so many people. Yeah, that 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:29.679 makes a lot of sense. OK, so they achieved this 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.000 absolutely historic success. Critical acclaim, 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.500 box office records, Oscars, everything. The next 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:36.720 question from Hollywood has to be, OK, how do 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.899 we get in business with these guys? Right. How 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:41.460 do we institutionalize the Daniels? And the answer 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:44.059 came pretty quickly in 2022. Big commitments, 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.649 big deals. What kind of deals are we talking 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:48.570 about? Well, two major ones. First, they signed 00:16:48.570 --> 00:16:51.809 a first look TV deal with A24. Makes sense. Sticking 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:55.190 with the studio that backed EEAO. Right. Keep 00:16:55.190 --> 00:16:59.110 developing maybe weirder prestige TV in that 00:16:59.110 --> 00:17:01.690 flexible indie -friendly environment. But then, 00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:05.259 the other big one. An exclusive five -year film 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:08.220 deal with Universal Pictures. Ah, Universal. 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.599 Okay, that's major studio backing. Guaranteed 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.279 budgets, wide distribution. Exactly. It's kind 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.200 of a brilliant strategy really. A two -front 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.369 approach. Yeah. They keep their connection to 00:17:17.369 --> 00:17:20.390 the indie world with A24 for TV, but they get 00:17:20.390 --> 00:17:22.710 the security and scale of Universal for their 00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:24.809 big movie ideas. So they're set up to basically 00:17:24.809 --> 00:17:26.630 do whatever they want, it seems. Pretty much. 00:17:26.809 --> 00:17:28.369 And they haven't slowed down on the directing 00:17:28.369 --> 00:17:30.269 front either, even while planning these bigger 00:17:30.269 --> 00:17:32.210 projects. They jumped right into maybe the biggest 00:17:32.210 --> 00:17:34.890 sandbox there is. Don't tell me. Star Wars. Yep. 00:17:35.410 --> 00:17:38.369 Announced March 2023, the Daniels directed one 00:17:38.369 --> 00:17:40.809 episode of the upcoming Disney Plus series, Star 00:17:40.809 --> 00:17:44.690 Wars. Skeleton Crew. Should be out in 2024. Wow. 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.539 OK, that's a test, isn't it? Can their very specific, 00:17:48.819 --> 00:17:52.740 often chaotic, maximalist style fit inside the, 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.059 let's say, very established aesthetic of Star 00:17:55.059 --> 00:17:57.400 Wars? It's a fascinating question. How do they 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.400 adapt their visual language for Lucasfilm? I'll 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.220 have to see. Definitely something to watch. Now, 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:04.579 what about their next original feature film, 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.880 the one under that big Universal deal? Ah, well, 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:09.759 here's where we get that interesting little anecdote. 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:12.819 a glimpse into the Hollywood hierarchy. Go on. 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.779 Their next big movie, their follow -up to EEAO, 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:17.960 was scheduled for a prime release date, June 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.160 12th, 2026, coveted summer slot. Okay, sounds 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:24.359 great. But that date got pushed, bumped back 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:27.380 to an unspecified time later. Why? Because Universal 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:30.400 confirmed that a brand new film by Steven Spielberg 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.339 would be taking that June 2026 slot. No way, 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:35.559 Spielberg? Yep, so the directors of the most 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.339 awarded film ever still had to step aside for, 00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.509 well, Spielberg, the ultimate Hollywood legend. 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:43.109 That's incredible. It really shows that even 00:18:43.109 --> 00:18:45.269 with all their success, all the awards, the old 00:18:45.269 --> 00:18:48.170 guard, the absolute icon still hold sway over 00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:50.329 that prime real estate on the calendar. It's 00:18:50.329 --> 00:18:51.950 a perfect illustration of the pecking order, 00:18:52.089 --> 00:18:55.390 right? Even record breaking success doesn't instantly 00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:57.450 put you at the very top of the pyramid. A reality 00:18:57.450 --> 00:19:00.299 check? Maybe. But their new power isn't just 00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:02.099 about directing their own stuff. They're using 00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:04.579 their clout as producers now too, right? Absolutely. 00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:07.019 Building their own little ecosystem. There was 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:10.539 a big announcement in June 2025 that Daniels 00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:13.859 are producing a high -concept comedy for Universal. 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:16.559 Okay. And who's involved with that? Get this. 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.460 It's set to be written and possibly directed 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:23.160 by Paul Dano. Paul Dano, their star from Swiss 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.180 Army Man. Exactly. It's like a creative lineage. 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.140 They're using their new power to give a major 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:30.960 feature opportunity to someone who is key to 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.039 their own breakthrough. That's fantastic. It 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.079 really paints them not just as talented directors, 00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:37.660 but as like community builders. Yeah. Paying 00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.019 it forward. Definitely seems that way. And you 00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:41.980 see broader recognition reflecting this view 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.519 of them as, you know, important figures shaping 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.240 the future. They were on the Time 100 Next List 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.849 in 2022. Recognizing rising leaders. Right. And 00:19:50.849 --> 00:19:54.150 their alma mater, Emerson, gave them the EVVY 00:19:54.150 --> 00:19:57.150 Alumni Award of Distinction in 2023. So yeah, 00:19:57.269 --> 00:19:59.509 they're seen as major players now for the long 00:19:59.509 --> 00:20:02.750 haul. It's easy to just focus on the films, the 00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:05.089 weirdness, the awards, but understanding who 00:20:05.089 --> 00:20:07.289 they are personally, where they come from, feels 00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:09.869 pretty crucial to understanding their work. Totally 00:20:09.869 --> 00:20:12.690 agree. That synthesis of their different backgrounds 00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:15.690 is key to their unique voice. So let's revisit 00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:19.269 that. Daniel Kwan, born in Massachusetts. His 00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:21.130 background is multicultural, right? Yeah, his 00:20:21.130 --> 00:20:23.730 mother is Taiwanese. His father is from Hong 00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:26.269 Kong. That brings up sort of global perspective, 00:20:26.309 --> 00:20:29.410 you might say. And personally, he's married to 00:20:29.410 --> 00:20:31.710 Kirsten Lepore, who's also a filmmaker and animator. 00:20:31.829 --> 00:20:34.789 They got married in 2016, have one son. OK. And 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.450 then Daniel Scheinert, born and raised in Birmingham, 00:20:37.490 --> 00:20:40.890 Alabama. Deep South Roots, son of Becky and Ken 00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:43.220 Scheinert. Went to local schools, Oak Mountain 00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:45.579 Elementary and Middle. But interestingly, he 00:20:45.579 --> 00:20:48.299 was also in this advanced magnet program, the 00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.319 Jefferson County International Baccalaureate 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:53.079 School. Ah, so maybe a more internationally focused 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.529 education within that southern context. Seems 00:20:55.529 --> 00:20:58.809 like it. And that combination is just fascinating, 00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:01.769 isn't it? You get Kwan's East Coast multicultural, 00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:04.650 maybe more analytical perspective. Meeting Scheinert's 00:21:04.650 --> 00:21:08.289 grounded, perhaps darker southern sensibility, 00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:11.990 but one that also had this rigorous academic 00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:14.630 international focus. And they meet at Emerson. 00:21:15.329 --> 00:21:18.900 And that friction, that blend. fuels their style. 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:21.980 It's maybe why their films can feel both intellectually 00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:24.720 complex and really specific in their commentary 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.099 on American culture. It's like they synthesize 00:21:27.099 --> 00:21:29.789 two different Americas into something. universally 00:21:29.789 --> 00:21:32.769 strange. Universally strange. I like that. And 00:21:32.769 --> 00:21:34.970 just before we wrap up, it's worth quickly mentioning 00:21:34.970 --> 00:21:36.950 the sheer volume of their work, especially the 00:21:36.950 --> 00:21:38.890 short films. This wasn't overnight success. Right, 00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:40.910 right. They were constantly working, experimenting. 00:21:41.069 --> 00:21:43.190 Yeah. The features are iconic now. Swiss Army 00:21:43.190 --> 00:21:45.890 Man, 2016, Everything Everywhere, 2022, plus 00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:48.289 Scheiner's Solo, The Death of Dick Long, 2019. 00:21:48.589 --> 00:21:50.910 But look at the shorts. Puppets way back in 2010, 00:21:51.009 --> 00:21:53.049 that interactive thing, Possibility in 2014, 00:21:53.450 --> 00:21:55.430 even doing a segment for that Omnibo project 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.269 in 2020. They were constantly honing their craft. 00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:01.250 Practicing the language of weirdness. Relentlessly. 00:22:01.529 --> 00:22:03.509 Using every format available to figure stuff 00:22:03.509 --> 00:22:06.549 out. Hashtag tag outro. OK, so let's recap this 00:22:06.549 --> 00:22:09.049 deep dive. We started with two film students, 00:22:09.529 --> 00:22:12.309 seemingly from different worlds, meeting at Emerson. 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:15.170 Traced their path through those groundbreaking 00:22:15.170 --> 00:22:18.089 Grammy nominated music videos where they basically 00:22:18.089 --> 00:22:21.049 invented their DIY high concept style. Then the 00:22:21.049 --> 00:22:24.390 leap to features with the wonderfully weird Sundance 00:22:24.390 --> 00:22:27.849 winning Swiss army man. divisive but acclaimed. 00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:30.289 And landed of course on the absolute phenomenon 00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:33.430 that was everything everywhere all at once. the 00:22:33.430 --> 00:22:35.509 record -breaking awards, the cultural impact. 00:22:35.809 --> 00:22:38.569 The final picture that emerges is this duo who 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:41.009 took independent, challenging, frankly weird 00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:43.710 filmmaking and somehow turned it into massive 00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:46.009 mainstream success. And doing it with this interesting 00:22:46.009 --> 00:22:48.309 blend of, you know, deep artistic commitment, 00:22:48.490 --> 00:22:50.930 but also advocacy for fair labor practices. Yeah. 00:22:51.150 --> 00:22:53.690 And finding huge success by tapping into something 00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:56.450 incredibly personal, like Kwan's ADHD experience. 00:22:56.569 --> 00:22:58.799 And now... They're armed with these major deals. 00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:02.160 A24 for TV, Universal for film. They have the 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.220 resources, the backing, the critical acclaim. 00:23:04.579 --> 00:23:06.539 Unprecedented creative freedom, really. Which 00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:09.319 brings us to that final provocative thought for 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.500 you, the listener, to chew on. Right. The Daniels, 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:15.200 directors of the most awarded film ever, had 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.380 their next movie bumped for Steven Spielberg. 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.660 A reminder of the hierarchy, yeah. But given 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:21.720 that they've proven they can blend the deeply 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:26.400 personal with the utterly spectacular. The mundane 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.819 with the multiverse? And now they have serious 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:30.799 institutional money and validation behind them. 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.819 What's next? What new ground will this duo define 00:23:33.819 --> 00:23:36.640 by embracing the strange, committed to fairness, 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.140 choose to explore now? What does it even mean 00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:42.799 for the future of movies that this kind of wonderfully 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.039 weird, high concept vision now has the full backing 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.940 of a major studio like Universal? They've broken 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:51.839 pretty much all the rules and won all the prizes. 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:54.839 The only question left is... What incredibly 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:58.059 ambitious, deeply personal, and probably wonderfully 00:23:58.059 --> 00:24:00.079 bizarre universe are they going to build for 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.940 us next? A beautiful absurdity to ponder indeed. 00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:04.859 Thanks for joining us on the Deep Dive. We'll 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:05.380 catch you next time.