WEBVTT 00:00:08.269 --> 00:00:11.769 Welcome to Fathom the Mind, a podcast from the 00:00:11.769 --> 00:00:14.869 Center for Contemplative Research. My name is 00:00:14.869 --> 00:00:17.269 Griffin Cunningham, and I'm filling in for our 00:00:17.269 --> 00:00:20.329 usual host, Nick Matias, for the intro today. 00:00:21.710 --> 00:00:25.149 This podcast exists to explore one central question. 00:00:25.649 --> 00:00:29.589 What is the nature of consciousness? And while 00:00:29.589 --> 00:00:32.210 that question might sound abstract, it's actually 00:00:32.210 --> 00:00:35.509 profoundly important for everyday life. because 00:00:35.509 --> 00:00:37.969 our understanding of consciousness has real implications 00:00:37.969 --> 00:00:40.729 for what we believe our minds are capable of, 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:44.130 not to mention what we think it means to be human. 00:00:44.570 --> 00:00:46.729 So it's our great hope that these conversations 00:00:46.729 --> 00:00:49.829 can empower listeners like you to live lives 00:00:49.829 --> 00:00:53.509 of both intellectual integrity and contemplative 00:00:53.509 --> 00:00:57.770 depth. Our guest today is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. 00:00:58.929 --> 00:01:01.509 Jetsunma is a bhikshuni, which is the Sanskrit 00:01:01.509 --> 00:01:04.739 term for a fully ordained Buddhist nun, in the 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:07.180 Drukpa lineage of the Kagyu school of Tibetan 00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:10.920 Buddhism. She is an author and teacher, as well 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.500 as the founder of the Dangyu Gatsa Ling Nunnery 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:17.400 in Himachal Pradesh, India. She is well known 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:19.620 for having spent 12 years living and practicing 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:23.040 in a remote cave in the Himalayas, three of those 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:27.930 years in strict meditation retreat. Given Jetsunma's 00:01:27.930 --> 00:01:29.930 background, we thought it fitting to bring in 00:01:29.930 --> 00:01:33.150 CCR co -founder and vice president Dr. Eva Natanya 00:01:33.150 --> 00:01:37.530 as a guest host for this conversation. In addition 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:40.629 to her administrative duties, Dr. Natanya serves 00:01:40.629 --> 00:01:43.790 as a resident teacher at the CCR's Mind Lab in 00:01:43.790 --> 00:01:46.670 Crestone, Colorado, helping to guide dedicated 00:01:46.670 --> 00:01:50.030 meditators who practice there in long -term solitary 00:01:50.030 --> 00:01:53.750 meditation retreat. On a related note, if you'd 00:01:53.750 --> 00:01:56.340 like to learn more about the CCR's vision, for 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:58.620 how this kind of sustained practice might influence 00:01:58.620 --> 00:02:01.859 the field of contemplative science, please visit 00:02:01.859 --> 00:02:04.060 our website at centerforcontemplativeresearch 00:02:04.060 --> 00:02:08.319 .org, which is linked in the show notes. In their 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.340 dialogue, Jed Sunma and Dr. Natanya cover a wide 00:02:11.340 --> 00:02:14.919 range of topics, including Buddhist monasticism, 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.560 psychological upheavals in retreat, mind training 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.280 in daily life, and the roles of neuroscience 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.139 and contemplative practice in studying the nature 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:26.930 of consciousness. but the through line that stands 00:02:26.930 --> 00:02:30.949 out most to me is this, that true mental balance 00:02:30.949 --> 00:02:34.169 is accessible to all of us, so long as we can 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:36.710 commit to training our minds in whatever circumstances 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:40.689 we find ourselves. This dialogue overflows with 00:02:40.689 --> 00:02:43.530 memorable stories and hard -won wisdom, and we 00:02:43.530 --> 00:02:45.810 hope you find something today that you can take 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:49.969 into your own lived experience. Please enjoy. 00:02:53.740 --> 00:03:00.139 Really, this theme of long -term practice in 00:03:00.139 --> 00:03:04.180 a retreat setting. Of course, I have just been 00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:07.979 so delighted to hear how you've built that balance 00:03:07.979 --> 00:03:11.900 at Dungu Gyataling with the Shedra and the Dukta, 00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:15.719 and with proper training, the nuns being able 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:18.419 to go into retreat for many years at a time. 00:03:22.349 --> 00:03:25.250 I think for so many people in our world today 00:03:25.250 --> 00:03:27.610 who have interest in contemplative practice, 00:03:27.689 --> 00:03:31.229 interest in meditation, interest in Buddhism 00:03:31.229 --> 00:03:36.949 more broadly, don't quite know what to make of 00:03:36.949 --> 00:03:38.909 the idea of long -term retreat or long -term 00:03:38.909 --> 00:03:46.370 solitude. And almost the more frenetic or urgent 00:03:46.370 --> 00:03:49.349 things feel in the outside world, I think sometimes 00:03:49.349 --> 00:03:52.360 it can be harder to... explain or get across 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.360 why does it matter to be in solitude for extended 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:58.240 periods of time? And I would love to know how 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:00.620 you would express that to a broader audience, 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:02.819 you know, those who are not familiar with the 00:04:02.819 --> 00:04:08.479 idea. Yeah, well, of course, it's always difficult 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:13.060 insofar as even in the Catholic Church, people 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:17.420 often admire the active nuns rather than the 00:04:17.420 --> 00:04:20.709 contemplative nuns. who they feel, what are they 00:04:20.709 --> 00:04:22.829 doing for the world compared to those who are 00:04:22.829 --> 00:04:26.550 teachers and working in hospitals and so forth. 00:04:27.550 --> 00:04:31.389 I guess from the Buddhist point of view, it seems 00:04:31.389 --> 00:04:33.730 we're not just thinking about this lifetime, 00:04:34.069 --> 00:04:38.250 but we're going back endlessly in the past and 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:41.529 also very much thinking for the future, future 00:04:41.529 --> 00:04:47.529 lives. It's considered that the... Real cause 00:04:47.529 --> 00:04:50.889 of our problem is our own mind rather than merely 00:04:50.889 --> 00:04:54.610 what's going on outside of ourselves. And therefore, 00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:57.490 really the best thing we can do for ourselves 00:04:57.490 --> 00:05:01.970 and for others is to get our mind together. Because 00:05:01.970 --> 00:05:05.370 the reason where the planet is suffering so much 00:05:05.370 --> 00:05:08.089 is because most people's minds are totally out 00:05:08.089 --> 00:05:11.189 of control. And especially the people who are 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:16.790 in control, they're the most uncontrolled. Really, 00:05:17.750 --> 00:05:23.889 we need to help this planet by really gaining 00:05:23.889 --> 00:05:27.850 a level of genuine understanding of how things 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:31.209 really are within ourselves and then obviously 00:05:31.209 --> 00:05:34.970 outside of ourselves. So the only way you can 00:05:34.970 --> 00:05:40.550 do that, like if you want to be a sports person 00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:45.699 or a musician, you have to practice. And however 00:05:45.699 --> 00:05:48.600 much you may believe in what you're doing, unless 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:51.779 you practice again and again and again and again, 00:05:51.939 --> 00:05:59.060 until finally the music, for example, plays through 00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:01.899 you and it looks like you're doing nothing. So 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:06.120 it eases within what you're doing. So that's 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.360 because of the hours and months and years of 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:14.360 prior practice to the point where... It becomes 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.819 who you are. And if that's true for, you know, 00:06:18.819 --> 00:06:23.500 fingers, what to speak of for the mind? I mean, 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.040 as you know, I mean, at the time of the Buddha, 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.319 and that was how long ago, he said we all had 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:33.860 mad monkey minds. So what he'd say now we can't 00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:37.240 imagine. But it's the mad monkey mind which is 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.720 causing all the problems outside and all the 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:43.129 problems inside. And it takes time. People think 00:06:43.129 --> 00:06:45.970 that they can do a week -long retreat and become 00:06:45.970 --> 00:06:48.629 enlightened. How long is it going to take? You 00:06:48.629 --> 00:06:52.370 know, and they don't know. Well, sorry, folks, 00:06:52.470 --> 00:06:55.470 but it's going to take a bit longer than a month's 00:06:55.470 --> 00:07:00.410 shamatha. So, you know, people have to understand 00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:04.129 that it's a total dedication. I mean, some of 00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:06.449 our nuns now have been in retreat about 18 years. 00:07:10.569 --> 00:07:13.930 Fortunately now also they're going out more to 00:07:13.930 --> 00:07:17.730 help the other nuns who are in retreat or who 00:07:17.730 --> 00:07:20.910 are doing their every year they have two months 00:07:20.910 --> 00:07:24.290 silent retreat. And so they're becoming teachers 00:07:24.290 --> 00:07:28.870 now themselves. But it takes a long time. And 00:07:28.870 --> 00:07:31.129 they themselves would not even really regard 00:07:31.129 --> 00:07:33.170 themselves as being qualified. Of course, they're 00:07:33.170 --> 00:07:38.329 very modest. But nonetheless, they feel that 00:07:38.329 --> 00:07:42.620 this. for this lifetime, to dedicate it to really 00:07:42.620 --> 00:07:46.560 understanding the nature of the mind is the most 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.639 important thing they could possibly do for themselves 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:56.040 and for others. Can you describe a little more 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:00.600 about... I almost want to say why it takes so 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.639 much time, because I think there's a cyclical 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.120 factor in retreat, right? That sometimes one 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:08.319 can feel like there's a breakthrough, but then... 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.579 other layers of the mind resurface and one has 00:08:11.579 --> 00:08:14.259 to keep churning and digging. I would love to 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:17.300 hear more about that process. Of course, it varies 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:20.220 from person to person, but how... Yeah, and of 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:21.819 course, the nuns themselves don't talk about 00:08:21.819 --> 00:08:25.819 it. Except we have, you know, in our monastery 00:08:25.819 --> 00:08:30.720 down the road at Tashijong, then they have Tok 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.659 Dins, the yogis, who have been in retreat for 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:37.480 many, many, many years. And the monastery, Kampagai, 00:08:37.539 --> 00:08:41.320 is famous for its yogis. And so they come and 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.659 teach the nuns. And now the nuns themselves are, 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.139 as I say, taking on that role also and teaching 00:08:48.139 --> 00:08:52.360 each other. And the other nuns also ask that 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.679 the nuns in retreat should come and teach them 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:59.019 because they, I think, also feel more at home 00:08:59.019 --> 00:09:02.419 with discussing whatever is coming up with another 00:09:02.419 --> 00:09:09.110 woman. rather than with a monk. So, yeah, I mean, 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:12.370 the thing is, the ultimate aim, as you know very 00:09:12.370 --> 00:09:14.789 well, is to recognize the nature of the mind. 00:09:16.529 --> 00:09:20.789 And what is the nature of the mind? Well, you 00:09:20.789 --> 00:09:22.929 know, you could call it many things, but basically 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:28.070 it's this non -dual pure consciousness, pure 00:09:28.070 --> 00:09:32.789 awareness, which normally we cannot. We cannot 00:09:32.789 --> 00:09:38.269 recognize because basically our dualistic ego 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:43.230 gets in the way. And so if people get even a 00:09:43.230 --> 00:09:47.990 glimpse of it, it transforms their lives. And 00:09:47.990 --> 00:09:50.850 even people who have nothing to do with the Dharma, 00:09:51.009 --> 00:09:53.529 not interested in religion, not interested in 00:09:53.529 --> 00:09:57.870 anything, and suddenly, who knows why, they suddenly 00:09:57.870 --> 00:10:02.299 get a profound experience. of their true nature, 00:10:02.460 --> 00:10:05.860 what we call the Buddha nature. And it completely, 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:11.240 I mean, sometimes they get very frustrated because 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.360 they felt their life was all very nicely in order 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.980 and everything arranged very nicely. And now 00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:23.000 all of that is meaningless in the face of realizing 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:27.480 the true reality of oneself and our interconnection 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:34.500 with all beings. So my Lama said, my Lama come 00:10:34.500 --> 00:10:38.399 to Rinpoche said, when you recognize the nature 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:46.000 of the mind, then you start to meditate. And 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:49.960 that is the point that when we usually, for most 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.059 people, even if they get some experience in nature 00:10:53.059 --> 00:10:55.919 of the mind, it's very transitory because... 00:10:56.750 --> 00:10:59.870 Everything opens up. It's like you wake up suddenly. 00:11:01.009 --> 00:11:05.509 But then the ego immediately jumps in and wants 00:11:05.509 --> 00:11:09.870 to claim the experience and get more of it. It 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:12.509 wants it to come on a regular basis when you 00:11:12.509 --> 00:11:17.409 want it and be more extended and so forth. But, 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:21.830 of course, the problem there is the very ego 00:11:21.830 --> 00:11:24.820 which is blocking. our ability to see the nature 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:26.759 of the mind. So you've got, on the one hand, 00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:33.320 the ego wanting to claim and create the circumstances 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:36.000 for it to come again and again. But because the 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.059 ego is there, we can't get it again and again. 00:11:38.500 --> 00:11:42.820 But if we don't try, then also we won't get it. 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:49.659 So it's this catch -22. And that's why they spend 00:11:49.659 --> 00:11:56.039 so long in retreat. I mean, because it's, as 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:01.259 I say, it's like if you're trying to be a professional 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:05.100 at anything, like music or sport or anything, 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:07.759 you have to really practice hard, hard, hard 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:13.799 and keep going with it until finally you reach 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.279 a stage where you're no longer putting in that 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.870 effort because it's just coming now. But that 00:12:19.870 --> 00:12:25.009 takes years and years. It's not just, you know, 00:12:25.029 --> 00:12:27.570 click your fingers and there you've got it. Now 00:12:27.570 --> 00:12:30.409 you know where you're going. It's like suddenly 00:12:30.409 --> 00:12:32.850 you're walking along the path and you're walking 00:12:32.850 --> 00:12:34.370 along the path and you're trying to go somewhere. 00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:37.450 You've read descriptions in the tourist books 00:12:37.450 --> 00:12:40.190 of what the place looks like and you've seen 00:12:40.190 --> 00:12:44.149 even maybe some pictures. But we're not there. 00:12:45.309 --> 00:12:49.779 We're still up here in the head. trying to get 00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:53.799 it all put together, then perhaps the whole thing 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.120 falls apart and we do see. Suddenly we turn the 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.700 corner. Oh, and there's a town. It's over there. 00:12:59.740 --> 00:13:01.799 We're not there yet, but we can see it in the 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.519 distance. Now we know it does exist. And from 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:10.980 then on, our journey is different because now 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:15.940 we know what we are looking for. We know that 00:13:15.940 --> 00:13:22.440 now. And so then comes the skill of trying to 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.279 engineer the journey so that the ego is not in 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:30.799 charge, but at the same time, we are going forward 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:36.419 knowing more clearly what it is we're trying 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:40.980 now to do. And so, I mean, I met a number of 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:43.299 lamas who say, you know, I mean, they've been 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:45.740 in the monastery since they were little boys 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:47.870 in there. you know, Rinpoches and everything. 00:13:47.990 --> 00:13:50.389 And they said suddenly, you know, maybe when 00:13:50.389 --> 00:13:53.250 they're 40s or 50s, they suddenly understand 00:13:53.250 --> 00:13:56.889 what they're trying to do. All those years of 00:13:56.889 --> 00:14:01.090 practice, but it never really clicked. And then 00:14:01.090 --> 00:14:04.490 suddenly it's there. And then after that, it's 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:08.850 easy. And so far, absolutely, you don't need 00:14:08.850 --> 00:14:14.389 to make effort. You just need to have the clarity. 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:20.029 and presence to be able to understand how the 00:14:20.029 --> 00:14:24.669 ultimate level of the nature of the mind, how 00:14:24.669 --> 00:14:28.470 it is. Because the whole point is that it's not 00:14:28.470 --> 00:14:31.889 me and mine. And that's very difficult for people, 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:35.110 even with the best motivations, somehow not to 00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:40.049 want to get on board and claim. Does that make 00:14:40.049 --> 00:14:45.830 sense? Yes, so deeply. And thank you. You know, 00:14:45.870 --> 00:14:49.610 many things come to mind as you're speaking, 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:51.669 because I've had the opportunity to work with 00:14:51.669 --> 00:14:54.990 so many retreatants and prospective retreatants 00:14:54.990 --> 00:14:57.570 by now as well. And I think the next question 00:14:57.570 --> 00:15:02.269 that comes to mind is for those who have responsibilities 00:15:02.269 --> 00:15:05.870 in the world, whether it's a family, a job that's 00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:10.649 very meaningful, work benefiting the world, so 00:15:10.649 --> 00:15:12.750 many other things, that people have real ties 00:15:12.750 --> 00:15:17.529 that are virtuous ties. Yes. And they've had 00:15:17.529 --> 00:15:20.370 some kind of glimpse, as you've been describing, 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:22.789 because as we know, the glimpse doesn't depend. 00:15:23.129 --> 00:15:26.370 It's not a cause effect of years in retreat and 00:15:26.370 --> 00:15:27.830 then getting the glimpse. The glimpse can come 00:15:27.830 --> 00:15:31.450 in so many ways. And then sometimes people have 00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:35.090 that yearning to go into solitude, to be able 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:38.190 to stabilize, to be able to return again and 00:15:38.190 --> 00:15:41.779 again. But they can't, and then the frustration 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:47.159 arises. And how would you address that, as Alan 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.259 Wallace calls it, the sacred tension, or sometimes 00:15:49.259 --> 00:15:52.659 it can be a real frustration? Well, of course, 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:56.620 I mean, Lord Buddha himself was not the best 00:15:56.620 --> 00:16:01.100 example of how to be a good family man and renounce 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:03.039 the opportunity for the sake of your family. 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:08.620 But in general... When people come with this 00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:13.539 problem, I usually say, look, stop making a division 00:16:13.539 --> 00:16:16.980 between when you're sitting on the cushion or 00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:19.120 reading a Dharma book, this is a Dharma talk, 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:24.019 that's spiritual. And when you're with your family 00:16:24.019 --> 00:16:26.960 or at your work or whatever you're doing, that 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:32.919 is mundane activity. And that's why we separate. 00:16:33.850 --> 00:16:38.370 And so the important thing really is to recognize 00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:41.129 that they're just both sides of the same coin 00:16:41.129 --> 00:16:46.929 and to transform our daily life into one's Dharma 00:16:46.929 --> 00:16:51.389 practice. One way is that, of course, cultivating 00:16:51.389 --> 00:16:56.429 awareness and a good heart, but also recognizing 00:16:56.429 --> 00:17:00.669 that of all the paramita, only one is about meditation. 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:08.079 We have generosity, ethics, patience, and, you 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.900 know, joyful effort and so forth. And most of 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:15.200 these need other people, right? I mean, we can 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.819 sit on our cushion thinking male beings be well 00:17:17.819 --> 00:17:21.200 and happy. But then what happens if we, you know, 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:24.720 have an argument with our partner or set up with 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.759 our work colleagues or anything, you know, driving 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.390 along and suddenly you're... Somebody just swiped 00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:38.470 your parking space. So what we need is to integrate 00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:43.710 the daily life and our meditation practice and 00:17:43.710 --> 00:17:50.170 not see them as being separated. If we have genuine 00:17:50.170 --> 00:17:53.589 clarity and mindfulness, which will come with 00:17:53.589 --> 00:17:57.470 the shamatha, and the mind will begin to quieten 00:17:57.470 --> 00:18:01.089 down. Who knows what is going to come up in the 00:18:01.089 --> 00:18:08.049 silence. But the point is that that clarity and 00:18:08.049 --> 00:18:11.210 that sense of presence which we get from our 00:18:11.210 --> 00:18:15.130 meditation has to be translated into our everyday 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:18.819 life. Otherwise, it's no use at all. I mean, 00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:22.160 if we're in meditation retreat and everything's 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.140 beautiful and we're getting all these insights 00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:27.299 and then we go out and immediately fall flat 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:33.259 on our face, then what was the use? So the two 00:18:33.259 --> 00:18:36.599 of them kind of support each other. I mean, I 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:38.519 say it's like you breathe in and you breathe 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:43.140 out. And the two have to be balanced. And the 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:45.559 breathing out is just as important as the breathing 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:53.569 in. So another way I sometimes explain it is 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:58.109 that like if you're making bread, then you get 00:18:58.109 --> 00:19:01.990 the flour and the water and you make a heavy 00:19:01.990 --> 00:19:05.710 dough. So now you've got a nice big heavy dough, 00:19:05.890 --> 00:19:10.769 which is rather indigestible. But then if you 00:19:10.769 --> 00:19:15.849 put in a little yeast, then the whole thing lightens 00:19:15.849 --> 00:19:21.480 up. And Rayat is up. And we can cook it and eat 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:23.819 it. It will be very nourishing and delicious. 00:19:24.019 --> 00:19:29.420 We don't throw the dough away. We knead the dough. 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.140 All we need. And we don't need vast amounts of 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:39.819 yeast even. Just a little good active yeast and 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.339 the whole thing will do of itself. And so that's 00:19:43.339 --> 00:19:45.440 like bringing Dharma, the Dharma perception. 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:50.440 into our daily life instead of a heavy, oh, now 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:52.500 I've got to work, now I've got to see the kids, 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.779 now I've got to do this, now I've got that. It's 00:19:54.779 --> 00:19:57.500 all very, very heavy. Putting a little Dharma 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:03.400 angle to it of awareness and kindness and generosity 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.460 and compassion, the whole thing just completely 00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:10.799 transforms and is very nourishing to our spiritual 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:16.920 life. So especially in this day and age. We shouldn't 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:27.859 reject our familial responsibilities. And the 00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:32.640 other thing which also they need is a good sense 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.339 of humor. Not taking yourself so seriously. Sometimes 00:20:37.339 --> 00:20:41.339 people get into Dharma or spiritual practices 00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:44.769 and it becomes very heavy. You know, I have to 00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:47.049 do this, I have to do that, it has to be right. 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:49.809 Is this the right way? Is this the wrong way? 00:20:50.069 --> 00:20:52.869 Is that an insightful thing to have thought or 00:20:52.869 --> 00:20:55.390 was it a stupid thing? I mean, and it all becomes 00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:59.930 back to me, me, me again, but a very heavy me, 00:21:00.009 --> 00:21:03.230 me, me, trying to be, you know, perfect, whatever 00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:09.329 that means. And that again is a trap. And if 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:12.150 you meet any of the great practitioners, and 00:21:12.150 --> 00:21:14.630 especially many of the great lamas and others, 00:21:14.809 --> 00:21:17.430 one thing you notice about them is they're always 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:25.869 laughing. Because they, yeah, I mean, when you 00:21:25.869 --> 00:21:28.390 look at the world, really, you know, what can 00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:32.089 you do? You either laugh or you cry. And so, 00:21:32.109 --> 00:21:35.250 although they also can certainly cry when the 00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:38.430 need is there, they also really know how to laugh. 00:21:46.010 --> 00:21:48.750 This reintegration that you've been describing, 00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:53.930 it strikes me there must be some parallel to 00:21:53.930 --> 00:21:57.829 that even within the monastery, even within Tashijong, 00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:01.650 even within Dungi Gyatseling. Do you see that 00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:04.789 occurring as they're teaching, as there's a kind 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.549 of a reintegration into community life even after 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:12.039 many years in retreat? Yeah, I mean, certainly 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:16.359 the nuns in the retreat center are always laughing. 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.240 But our nuns in general are always laughing. 00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:23.400 A while back in the winter, I got a little sick 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:29.140 and suddenly three nuns arrived in my room, put 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:31.480 down their mattresses and said, right, they were 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:35.220 coming to take care of me. I'm in my room, it's 00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:38.700 not that big. And these three nuns settled in. 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:45.980 But they were such fun. They were just so full 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:48.619 of life. They were very, very kind, of course, 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.140 and they looked after me beautifully. But beyond 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:55.799 that, they were just so full of joy. And I think 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:58.579 that that's the other thing. What we really need 00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:04.000 to practice is not just with great devotion to 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.660 the practice and to the teachers and to the method 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:10.940 and to... everything to open our heart, but also 00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:18.859 joy. Because if we enjoy doing something, then 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:22.640 even if it's difficult, it's not difficult, if 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.559 you see what I mean. You know, like, as I say, 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:29.740 sportsmen, I mean, they put them through so much 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:33.460 routine, but they enjoy it. So to them, it's 00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:37.140 fun, right? They don't look on it as being something. 00:23:38.360 --> 00:23:43.299 difficult and arduous and, you know, unpleasing. 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:46.619 They look on it as something which they really 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:50.599 love to do. And so even if it's a difficult day 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:55.819 or an easy day, they're happy. And I think that's 00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:58.200 what you see when you meet some of these great 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:02.500 lamas, especially. Their eyes are just twinkling 00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:07.190 away, right? They're just, even ones who... previously 00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:12.309 had been in prison for many, many years during 00:24:12.309 --> 00:24:15.410 the Cultural Revolution and everything and had 00:24:15.410 --> 00:24:19.609 gone through so many ordeals and so many, many 00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:21.769 problems that you would think that they would 00:24:21.769 --> 00:24:26.269 have at least a kind of hurt look or an angry 00:24:26.269 --> 00:24:30.069 look or something, but it isn't. Their eyes are 00:24:30.069 --> 00:24:36.279 just dancing and they're full of fun. Again, 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.039 that reminds us that happiness, unhappiness lies 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.940 inside ourselves, and it's not really anything 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:49.859 too much to do with external circumstances. We 00:24:49.859 --> 00:24:52.500 can deal with external circumstances if inside 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:57.519 our sense of being is healthy. So the first thing 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:00.900 with shamatha is to make a very healthy sense 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:06.319 of self. Because that healthy sense of self will 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.180 be what's going to walk the path towards the 00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:14.039 dissolution of our separation with others. And 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.720 if we're beating ourselves up all the time or 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:22.319 always criticizing ourselves, then we will have 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.440 an unhappy, sick sense of self. And that can't 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:29.599 walk the path. It will just get itself caught 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:33.769 up in endless problems and difficulties. and 00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.069 either blame others or blame itself, but it won't 00:25:37.069 --> 00:25:40.289 be at peace. And it's very important to have 00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:43.349 a peaceful mind as well as a joyful mind. By 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:46.289 rights, people who are meditating should show 00:25:46.289 --> 00:25:49.250 at least that they're, you know, dealing with 00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:52.890 themselves. And I think mostly when you meet 00:25:52.890 --> 00:25:56.309 with people who are genuinely practicing from 00:25:56.309 --> 00:25:59.750 the heart, you feel that with them, you know, 00:25:59.789 --> 00:26:04.829 that inner joy. even if outwardly their circumstances 00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:10.549 might be quite difficult. Don't you find that? 00:26:11.009 --> 00:26:15.470 Oh, absolutely. It strikes me as you're speaking, 00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:24.309 there's this balance or oscillation between the 00:26:24.309 --> 00:26:28.059 source of the joy. which we might call refuge, 00:26:28.339 --> 00:26:30.400 we might call the ultimate nature of the mind, 00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:32.700 the ultimate nature of reality as the ground 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:37.359 of well -being, the ground of the reason anything 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:42.660 can be joyful at all, really. And what you said 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.220 about in shamatha, we need to find some balance 00:26:45.220 --> 00:26:49.779 even to be able to access that ground of being. 00:26:49.859 --> 00:26:53.640 And I would love if you wish to say more about... 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.700 almost how that dynamic plays out of one's balancing 00:26:57.700 --> 00:27:01.819 the mind even without maybe deep insight. But 00:27:01.819 --> 00:27:04.819 it's that very balancing that makes one more 00:27:04.819 --> 00:27:06.880 able to have the insight. But sometimes one can't 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.940 do the balancing until one has a glimpse of insight. 00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:15.099 So how do we work with that practically? Well, 00:27:15.140 --> 00:27:20.019 I think mainly a lot of it is to do with the 00:27:20.019 --> 00:27:24.730 trust that this is a good thing to do. a good 00:27:24.730 --> 00:27:31.150 method to use. And so if one day everything is 00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:34.190 wonderful and you think, oh, enlightenment just 00:27:34.190 --> 00:27:36.730 around the corner, and next day the whole thing 00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:39.829 falls apart and you just feel completely in despair, 00:27:40.069 --> 00:27:43.710 it's all the same. It doesn't matter. It's like 00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:50.390 if we think of a samsara as an ocean, then, you 00:27:50.390 --> 00:27:53.839 know, the waves go up, the waves go down. And 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:58.160 our problem normally is that we are submerged 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.420 in the waves. So we get tossed up and then we 00:28:01.420 --> 00:28:03.599 get drawn down again, tossed up, drawn down. 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:09.019 So what we need is a boat, as Buddha himself 00:28:09.019 --> 00:28:14.220 said, or a surfboard. You know, I mean, once 00:28:14.220 --> 00:28:16.559 you're good at surfing, then the bigger the waves, 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:23.359 the more delight you find, isn't it? I once saw 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:28.039 a T -shirt which had big waves and then on top 00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:31.180 of it was a surfboard. And then on top of that 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:35.119 was someone sitting in meditation. And the slogan 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:41.319 said, riding the waves of life, be happy, be 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:46.670 mindful. Which I thought was fair enough. And 00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:49.789 that's it. I mean, the dharma and the practice, 00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:53.509 you know, whatever your practice is, that is 00:28:53.509 --> 00:28:56.549 what is, even though you're going up and down 00:28:56.549 --> 00:28:58.569 on the waves and you want the waves, you know, 00:28:58.589 --> 00:29:00.970 it doesn't have to all be bland and never anything 00:29:00.970 --> 00:29:04.450 happening. But nonetheless, you're in control 00:29:04.450 --> 00:29:11.670 because you're on the surfboard. So it's not 00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:17.210 to worry. I mean, the other point is, and that 00:29:17.210 --> 00:29:21.789 people should also know, that if you're keeping 00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:25.470 the example of an ocean, mostly we are up on 00:29:25.470 --> 00:29:28.809 the waves and the undercurrents, right? Today 00:29:28.809 --> 00:29:32.390 we're up, tomorrow we're down. But as our shamatha 00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:35.789 deepens, then we begin to go below the surface 00:29:35.789 --> 00:29:39.230 and we go down. And then, of course, everybody 00:29:39.230 --> 00:29:41.930 is hoping to meet with lovely, friendly dolphins. 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.099 and beautiful golden fish. But in fact, there 00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:51.539 are sharks and there are killer whales down there. 00:29:51.940 --> 00:29:58.119 And many people, as you must know, to their surprise 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:05.299 and dismay, find that instead of being in a sea 00:30:05.299 --> 00:30:10.099 of bliss, all these... old memories and traumas 00:30:10.099 --> 00:30:13.180 and fear. Fear is a very common one to come up. 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:16.980 What do I do about fear? That's a very common 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:22.819 question. And also, you know, traumatic memories 00:30:22.819 --> 00:30:26.460 and anger. Suddenly they find all this anger 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:28.900 coming up. They don't know what exactly, but 00:30:28.900 --> 00:30:34.680 it's boiling inside them. And so that is, for 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:37.039 some people, quite a surprise because they assume. 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:41.079 that they're going to be calm and clear and they're 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.259 not expecting that, in fact, it's going to be 00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:47.200 more turbulent for a time. So that's what they 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.799 have to work with. And to convince people it's 00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:55.079 really very good that these dark passions, instead 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:59.059 of being pushed down and ignored where they grow 00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:02.339 in the darkness, are being brought up into the 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:06.950 light of our consciousness. And how important 00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:11.750 it is to give them lots of loving kindness and 00:31:11.750 --> 00:31:15.150 compassion. And talk. You know, what's your problem? 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:18.730 Tell me. Without being afraid because we know 00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:23.029 these are all just, you know, parts of our consciousness 00:31:23.029 --> 00:31:28.029 which we have tried to ignore. And now we are 00:31:28.029 --> 00:31:34.319 giving them a chance to speak. We have this film 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.759 clip, maybe you've seen it, of this woman who 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:44.279 goes into the ocean and she puts her arm into 00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:50.220 the mouth of the sharks to pull out hooks that 00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:55.200 have been caught in their gut from fishermen 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.700 and they broke away. This is quite an old one 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:02.099 now, but at that time she had already removed 00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:09.440 300 hooks from the shark's throats. And so there 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:13.279 she is with all these teeth and her arm inside 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:17.460 working on it and all these other sharks circling 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:22.279 around waiting for her to have time to look to 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:26.700 them. And to my mind, that is a perfect example. 00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:30.380 of what to do with all these dark feelings which 00:32:30.380 --> 00:32:36.000 come up, fear and anger and trauma, that instead 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.440 of being the enemy that you want to get rid of 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:42.680 and ignore and push out the way, you embrace 00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:46.980 them with great compassion. And then what would 00:32:46.980 --> 00:32:51.140 have been normally the most terrifying thing 00:32:51.140 --> 00:32:54.140 stuck in the ocean, being surrounded by all these 00:32:54.140 --> 00:33:00.430 sharks. is in fact a beautiful thing. They're 00:33:00.430 --> 00:33:03.609 just giving her so much love and so much trust. 00:33:04.690 --> 00:33:08.950 And she's helping them so that they can be free. 00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:11.990 So that's what we have to do with our thoughts, 00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:14.670 the dark thoughts. We have to free them. We have 00:33:14.670 --> 00:33:17.869 to liberate them. And that is done through love 00:33:17.869 --> 00:33:23.230 and compassion and fearlessness. Oh, how beautiful. 00:33:24.029 --> 00:33:31.259 Thank you. It's quite extraordinary. I think 00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:33.420 maybe you've already answered the question that's 00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:37.839 coming to mind as you speak, which is, I think 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.140 sometimes this balance between, as you said, 00:33:41.180 --> 00:33:43.740 the analogy of riding the waves, which again, 00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:47.380 sometimes people gain the capacity to do even 00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:49.420 with a daily meditation practice or maybe only 00:33:49.420 --> 00:33:51.839 a month in retreat and then they go back and 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:55.569 life really feels different. And I know for many 00:33:55.569 --> 00:34:00.289 people that discernment of when is it important 00:34:00.289 --> 00:34:04.529 enough to dive deeper and risk the sharks and 00:34:04.529 --> 00:34:09.590 face the sharks and befriend the demons, as it 00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:13.530 were. I think you don't choose. They come. I 00:34:13.530 --> 00:34:15.909 mean, people are sitting there waiting to be, 00:34:15.989 --> 00:34:19.289 you know, enveloped in great bliss and peace. 00:34:19.489 --> 00:34:23.230 And instead of that. Suddenly these very strong 00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:26.710 feelings from very deep inside, they usually 00:34:26.710 --> 00:34:29.909 say how it comes from right deep inside, these 00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:33.469 feelings depending on who you are, what you will 00:34:33.469 --> 00:34:36.829 get, but they are not what we were hoping for. 00:34:36.909 --> 00:34:39.929 They were not pleasant feelings. And then people 00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:43.329 feel lost because they're afraid of the fear. 00:34:43.929 --> 00:34:46.489 They're afraid of their anger. They have these 00:34:46.489 --> 00:34:49.230 horrible memories of, you know, maybe they had 00:34:49.230 --> 00:34:52.179 been. pushed down for so long and now suddenly 00:34:52.179 --> 00:34:54.360 they're coming back up into our conscious mind. 00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:58.900 And they didn't plan it. It just happens. And 00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:02.960 so really the thing to do is to remember that 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.880 example that instead of being afraid of these 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:10.659 things, that we accept them and show them love 00:35:10.659 --> 00:35:16.820 and compassion. I mean, there's... The other 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:23.219 anecdote which maybe explains this is this yogi 00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:26.940 who went back to his cave and there were five 00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:35.900 demons sitting there. So then he points a finger 00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:39.480 at them and says all these fierce mantras and 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.360 they just laugh. So I think, oh, that didn't 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:49.159 work. Okay, so then. Empty. Empty. They're all 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:55.360 just empty. Just a play of the mind. They're 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.239 still there. So if anything, I don't know what 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:02.519 to do. Okay. You are welcome. You are my guests. 00:36:03.099 --> 00:36:06.099 Please make yourself at home, and I'll just make 00:36:06.099 --> 00:36:09.380 us all a nice cup of tea, and then we can get 00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:11.599 to know each other. And so he turns around and 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:14.059 he lights a fire and he's boiling his tea up. 00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:17.340 And then when he turns around, they have all 00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:21.500 transformed into beautiful local deities who 00:36:21.500 --> 00:36:24.440 said, you know, we will follow you and we will 00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:27.099 protect you and don't worry, it's all in our 00:36:27.099 --> 00:36:30.940 hands. In other words, when he accepted them 00:36:30.940 --> 00:36:35.760 and showed them friendship and, you know, love, 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.900 wanting to give them a nice cup of tea. They 00:36:38.900 --> 00:36:42.719 themselves transformed. He didn't have to do 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:46.519 anything. All he had to do was accept them with 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:50.320 love. And that's the same with these feelings. 00:36:50.619 --> 00:36:55.219 If we accept them with compassion and love, then 00:36:55.219 --> 00:36:58.820 of themselves, sometimes very quickly, sometimes 00:36:58.820 --> 00:37:01.860 slowly, they begin to dissolve and transform 00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:09.949 into a very clear level. Because, as you know, 00:37:10.070 --> 00:37:15.769 in Vajrayana, at least, the kleshas are the flip 00:37:15.769 --> 00:37:22.449 side of a very deep energetic wisdom. So, in 00:37:22.449 --> 00:37:26.090 fact, if we can deal skillfully with all the 00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:29.969 seemingly negative aspects of our being, we gain 00:37:29.969 --> 00:37:33.829 tremendous insight and strength from that, more 00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:38.190 than if you didn't have any at all. I mean, you 00:37:38.190 --> 00:37:41.210 know, like it's better if you can do it, it's 00:37:41.210 --> 00:37:48.309 better to be a tiger than to be a rabbit. You 00:37:48.309 --> 00:37:51.349 said the sheer power, the sheer momentum of force 00:37:51.349 --> 00:37:58.650 that one has. It's there, yeah. Thank you. I 00:37:58.650 --> 00:38:01.929 feel like this is advice to all retreatants because 00:38:01.929 --> 00:38:05.429 I think sometimes there's that point when Maybe 00:38:05.429 --> 00:38:08.170 this is what I was trying to get at. The courage 00:38:08.170 --> 00:38:11.250 it takes to believe enough, as you said, in the 00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:15.230 teachers, in the path, because there's a temporary 00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:18.550 relief just by coming out of retreat. Sometimes 00:38:18.550 --> 00:38:21.690 if one's been in that very dangerous, dark place 00:38:21.690 --> 00:38:25.489 within oneself, and whether because of outer 00:38:25.489 --> 00:38:27.610 circumstances or illness or whatever else, one 00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:30.010 can't be in retreat anymore. And then there's 00:38:30.010 --> 00:38:32.230 a kind of a relief of just the distraction of 00:38:32.230 --> 00:38:37.460 being in the world. It hasn't fixed, it hasn't 00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:40.860 actually healed what one has encountered, but 00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:44.639 it can seem easier for a while. And I sense that 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.440 maybe this is coming to that deeper question 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.699 of why does it take so long and why is it worth 00:38:49.699 --> 00:38:54.679 it to remain in retreat until one has crossed 00:38:54.679 --> 00:39:00.119 that threshold, as it were. And how many times 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.210 does one need to cross that threshold of... seeing 00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:07.250 the demons transform into friends, into local 00:39:07.250 --> 00:39:12.110 deities and so on. Do you have more to share 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:16.269 in that point? No, because that's an impossible 00:39:16.269 --> 00:39:18.690 question in a way. Different people are different. 00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:25.349 And, you know, the demons they have to face are 00:39:25.349 --> 00:39:30.269 different demons, depending. And so for some... 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:38.019 their experience of practice has been very profoundly 00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:43.179 meaningful and deep. And they're able to carry 00:39:43.179 --> 00:39:46.280 that out at least for quite some time into their 00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:52.400 everyday life. And for other people, they just 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:57.190 seem to... I don't know. They don't sort of get 00:39:57.190 --> 00:40:02.150 off the ground, so to speak. They remain sort 00:40:02.150 --> 00:40:08.130 of caught. I don't know why exactly, but some 00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:13.750 people have a hard time. Most people love being 00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:16.369 in retreat. I mean, we also have a retreat center 00:40:16.369 --> 00:40:22.869 for women in general, not nuns. And it's not... 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:29.900 idyllic like your place. But people like to be 00:40:29.900 --> 00:40:31.960 here because, you know, there are nuns around. 00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:40.139 And so they always feel protected and safe. And 00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:42.559 mostly they all say that they, you know, had 00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:44.179 a wonderful time and they're planning when they 00:40:44.179 --> 00:40:47.559 can come back. But sometimes you can see that 00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:51.289 people came up with things. which maybe they 00:40:51.289 --> 00:40:55.130 weren't expecting to come up to with, and they 00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:59.750 don't really know how to deal with it. And so 00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:02.530 now also some people have been saying, could 00:41:02.530 --> 00:41:06.550 we have somebody that we could talk to if we 00:41:06.550 --> 00:41:10.269 have questions come up in our practice? We're 00:41:10.269 --> 00:41:13.670 wasting our time if we don't know how to deal 00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:16.840 with these problems. And also the nuns themselves 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:19.360 said when they do every year, they do a two -month 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:24.300 silent retreat. And they also said, could we 00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:28.280 talk with some of our yoginis? Because something 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:30.980 comes up and we're in silence. We can't talk. 00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:35.199 And so it's like wasting time a little bit because 00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.619 they're stuck on this one thing, whatever it 00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:42.239 is. And they need someone who can help guide 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:47.139 them over that to the next part. So for some 00:41:47.139 --> 00:41:49.480 people, they just sit down and just immediately, 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.320 you know, not exactly go into samadhi, but they 00:41:53.320 --> 00:42:00.659 feel at home in the practice. And probably they 00:42:00.659 --> 00:42:05.780 are, you know, from past times. And others struggle 00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:10.559 because, I don't know, maybe they had great expectations, 00:42:10.579 --> 00:42:14.559 which people think, you know, that everything's 00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:19.059 just going to… create, you know, harmony and 00:42:19.059 --> 00:42:22.380 peace just, you know, by, you know, a few days 00:42:22.380 --> 00:42:25.519 or a few weeks of sitting. And sometimes, as 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.219 we've been saying, actually, it makes things 00:42:28.219 --> 00:42:33.980 worse before it gets better. So, you know, people 00:42:33.980 --> 00:42:37.280 should also develop patience and not have any 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:41.400 expectations. That I think also, because don't 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.940 expect anything and just be open to whatever 00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:47.400 happens. And then, you know, try to use your, 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:49.940 if you can't talk to anybody, then use your own 00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:53.860 wisdom insight into how to deal with this. And 00:42:53.860 --> 00:42:58.900 what it's telling us that now it's had room in 00:42:58.900 --> 00:43:03.239 which to come up and be seen and attended to. 00:43:04.099 --> 00:43:08.119 So it's wonderful what you're doing with your 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.940 retreat center there. And it's very important 00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:17.090 for. Nowadays also, I think it's very, one good 00:43:17.090 --> 00:43:22.110 thing is the interest that neuroscience nowadays 00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:27.150 is taking in consciousness, which previously 00:43:27.150 --> 00:43:33.409 they practically denied. And now it's all, you 00:43:33.409 --> 00:43:37.849 know, the C word. You don't talk about that. 00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:41.309 That's the elephant in the living room. That's 00:43:41.309 --> 00:43:44.329 what one neuroscientist said. Talk about consciousness. 00:43:46.730 --> 00:43:51.269 But now they do. And, you know, just a recognition 00:43:51.269 --> 00:43:59.170 first that we are all conscious, including animals 00:43:59.170 --> 00:44:03.429 and insects and all beings. We're all very interconnected. 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.730 That's so important. We are sentient beings, 00:44:08.110 --> 00:44:12.750 right? All beings have that consciousness. however 00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:15.550 it may come to them with their sense organs. 00:44:16.630 --> 00:44:19.809 And also that the consciousness is not the brain. 00:44:21.010 --> 00:44:24.030 That's another very, very important step for 00:44:24.030 --> 00:44:26.949 them to recognize that they don't know what it 00:44:26.949 --> 00:44:32.190 is. They can't get it on their machines. They 00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:37.969 have no idea where it's located. But we are all 00:44:37.969 --> 00:44:45.159 interconnected in having. And you can't see it 00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.300 on a machine. You can't see it in another person. 00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:49.460 The only place you can recognize consciousness 00:44:49.460 --> 00:44:53.980 is within yourself. And so now, also, as you 00:44:53.980 --> 00:44:58.260 must certainly know, I mean, a lot of these neuroscientists 00:44:58.260 --> 00:45:01.920 are meditating because they recognize it's the 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.239 only way you're going to know what's going on 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.639 inside. Pretty patterns on a machine doesn't 00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.809 work. What's really going on? Only you can know. 00:45:14.010 --> 00:45:18.869 And that's good. Yeah, this is something we emphasize, 00:45:18.969 --> 00:45:22.250 the notion of first -person inquiry, that this, 00:45:22.369 --> 00:45:25.670 with the tools of shamatha and vipassana, of 00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:29.849 insight, that one can become a scientist with 00:45:29.849 --> 00:45:34.010 respect to one's own mind. Exactly. And, of course, 00:45:34.010 --> 00:45:36.230 that's what the Buddha was teaching of look. 00:45:37.150 --> 00:45:39.929 Look at yourself. Don't believe things just because 00:45:39.929 --> 00:45:45.630 I say it. Yeah. But now it's become more respectable. 00:45:46.070 --> 00:45:49.349 So, I mean, this also, you know, you don't have 00:45:49.349 --> 00:45:53.909 to be coy about the fact that you're actually 00:45:53.909 --> 00:45:56.409 going off for a weekend's meditation, you know. 00:45:57.469 --> 00:46:00.050 And that's a good thing. That's a good thing. 00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:03.730 I mean, it doesn't, I mean, because shamatha 00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:08.389 and also vipassana, it's not per se. I mean, 00:46:08.389 --> 00:46:10.789 anybody can do it. I mean, it's just understanding 00:46:10.789 --> 00:46:14.130 how our mind works and then what is the very 00:46:14.130 --> 00:46:18.510 fundamental nature of the mind. And, you know, 00:46:18.610 --> 00:46:25.170 that's a wonderful thing. Coming back to one 00:46:25.170 --> 00:46:28.250 of our earlier themes of the benefit for the 00:46:28.250 --> 00:46:32.130 whole of the world, and not only human society, 00:46:32.190 --> 00:46:36.360 but all sentient beings of our world. When there 00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.539 are places where people are dedicating themselves 00:46:38.539 --> 00:46:42.780 to full -time practice, full -time retreat, whether 00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:48.980 in full solitude or in community. And you made 00:46:48.980 --> 00:46:51.940 reference to the Catholic tradition, which is 00:46:51.940 --> 00:46:56.780 very familiar to me as well. And I feel like 00:46:56.780 --> 00:46:58.960 there are two threads, but I would love to hear 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:01.579 more. more of your perspective on this, there's 00:47:01.579 --> 00:47:04.400 like almost the scientific logic of, yes, if 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.760 people can make discoveries like a science lab, 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.039 then that benefits all of society. But then there's 00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:14.099 this deeper layer of, because we are all connected, 00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:20.599 the transformation that occurs in one person's 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:25.539 mind actually does affect other people. And I 00:47:25.539 --> 00:47:28.380 would love to know from your perspective of how 00:47:29.250 --> 00:47:31.690 even for those who are not actively interested 00:47:31.690 --> 00:47:35.269 in contemplation at all, is there some benefit? 00:47:37.349 --> 00:47:40.510 Well, you know, I mean, I think, you know, I 00:47:40.510 --> 00:47:42.889 can't say that if I sit and meditate on loving 00:47:42.889 --> 00:47:45.050 kindness down the road, everybody's suddenly 00:47:45.050 --> 00:47:48.289 going to feel full of loving kindness. But we 00:47:48.289 --> 00:47:53.710 do know that those places which are visited as 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:58.530 pilgrimage places through the ages, have a very, 00:47:58.630 --> 00:48:01.789 very special atmosphere, and you don't even have 00:48:01.789 --> 00:48:07.210 to know. I mean, like Bodh Gaya, and for a while 00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:10.730 I lived near Assisi in Italy, or St. Francis. 00:48:11.289 --> 00:48:15.289 And so many people have told me how, you know, 00:48:15.349 --> 00:48:19.650 Rome, Assisi, Florence, Venice, that's your route 00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:22.949 as a tourist. And so they go to Assisi, which 00:48:22.949 --> 00:48:25.650 is full of, you know, shops selling all this 00:48:25.650 --> 00:48:29.980 kind of... tacky stuff about St. Francis. But 00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:33.639 so many people have suddenly, out of nowhere, 00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:37.360 had a really very profound spiritual feeling. 00:48:37.820 --> 00:48:40.659 And they were amazed because they're going as 00:48:40.659 --> 00:48:44.840 tourists. They weren't going as pilgrims. Who's 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:50.019 St. Francis? And yet they really, really affected 00:48:50.019 --> 00:48:53.119 them very, very deeply. And sometimes for their 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:56.010 whole life because they... turned their mind 00:48:56.010 --> 00:49:00.889 around to start thinking about, you know, something 00:49:00.889 --> 00:49:03.469 else beyond where can you get the best pizza. 00:49:04.130 --> 00:49:09.610 And so that's that side of it. And then the other 00:49:09.610 --> 00:49:13.269 side is like one time I went with venerable children 00:49:13.269 --> 00:49:21.409 to the concentration camp in Poland, Auschwitz. 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.619 And there's nothing there. They're just buildings. 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:29.820 And yet you wouldn't have to know anything to 00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:36.300 know that this was a very, very evil place. It 00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:40.820 was so dark and cold, even though the weather 00:49:40.820 --> 00:49:44.900 was fine, but you knew something horrible had 00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:49.860 happened there. And that is because of the thought 00:49:49.860 --> 00:49:53.840 forms of many hundreds, thousands of people then 00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:59.360 and over the years and how that stayed there 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:02.860 in the air, in the walls, in everything around 00:50:02.860 --> 00:50:06.960 you. You knew either something absolutely wonderful 00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.179 happened here or something really, really terrible. 00:50:10.380 --> 00:50:16.969 And the feeling is totally real. You can feel 00:50:16.969 --> 00:50:22.789 it. And so that's because so many minds all with 00:50:22.789 --> 00:50:26.510 the same feelings came together over the years. 00:50:26.590 --> 00:50:31.110 And it's really there. I mean, you can't deny 00:50:31.110 --> 00:50:36.789 it, which is why people go on pilgrimage. Because 00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:41.369 if you go on places of pilgrimage, and it's always 00:50:41.369 --> 00:50:44.880 human beings have gone on pilgrimage. For thousands 00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:47.760 and thousands of years, beings have gone on pilgrimage. 00:50:47.820 --> 00:50:50.880 Certain places are holy and special, and you 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:55.420 go there and you feel something powerful healing 00:50:55.420 --> 00:51:02.420 you. So, yes, I mean, thoughts can be very, very 00:51:02.420 --> 00:51:15.340 powerful things. Maybe to close then, for those 00:51:15.340 --> 00:51:18.840 who have found inspiration, whether from visiting 00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:22.820 a place, from hearing a teaching, from reading 00:51:22.820 --> 00:51:28.539 books, whether in Buddhism or another contemplative 00:51:28.539 --> 00:51:31.179 tradition, and they feel that urge, you know, 00:51:31.179 --> 00:51:34.000 they feel that calling, that vocation of maybe 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.519 I want to devote my life to this. Do you have 00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:41.380 advice? Of course, it's so individual to... To 00:51:41.380 --> 00:51:43.300 different people, but in general, especially 00:51:43.300 --> 00:51:46.559 young people, whether in college, high school, 00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:50.380 maybe going into graduate school, but almost 00:51:50.380 --> 00:51:53.099 at that tipping point of they could start a family, 00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:57.280 but maybe they could not start a family and create 00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:01.300 the conditions for extensive contemplative practice. 00:52:02.139 --> 00:52:09.159 Instead, how would you? Well, I mean, one cannot 00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:13.639 say. I mean, for some people, having a family, 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:18.199 having work, going out into society is their 00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:22.500 way of practice. And that is right for them. 00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:26.340 And it benefits many people because they're bringing 00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:28.679 up a family and they're meeting with their colleagues 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.420 and they've got, you know, the world around them. 00:52:35.389 --> 00:52:38.670 feels for them fulfilling and meaningful, then 00:52:38.670 --> 00:52:44.449 it surely is, right? And for others who don't 00:52:44.449 --> 00:52:46.349 feel that that's what they really want to do 00:52:46.349 --> 00:52:49.730 and that they would like to directly just devote 00:52:49.730 --> 00:52:52.730 themselves to the Dharma and to practice, then 00:52:52.730 --> 00:52:56.769 for them, that is the right thing to do. I mean, 00:52:56.809 --> 00:53:01.289 you see it more like in, say, Catholic or Buddhist 00:53:01.289 --> 00:53:04.989 countries. where you always have the option, 00:53:05.150 --> 00:53:08.929 right? Either you can become a priest or a monk, 00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:12.789 nun, or you can get married. And so likewise, 00:53:13.090 --> 00:53:18.550 all of our girls here, they chose. They didn't 00:53:18.550 --> 00:53:21.809 want to get married. They didn't want to have 00:53:21.809 --> 00:53:23.829 to work in the fields and do cooking and cleaning 00:53:23.829 --> 00:53:26.909 and what for. They wanted to do something meaningful 00:53:26.909 --> 00:53:29.730 with their lives. And so they chose to become 00:53:29.730 --> 00:53:33.460 a nun when they were really quite young. But, 00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:36.219 you know, so they're very happy and fulfilled 00:53:36.219 --> 00:53:38.500 because they're doing what they want to do. But 00:53:38.500 --> 00:53:40.699 nonetheless, you meet their family and their 00:53:40.699 --> 00:53:43.360 sisters and brothers, and they're also very good 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:46.579 people, very kind, very devoted to the Dharma. 00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:51.039 And they don't want to become monastics, but 00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:56.360 nonetheless, they do have great devotion, both 00:53:56.360 --> 00:53:59.360 to the teachers, the lamas, and the temples. 00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.400 life of a monk or a nun, and to the Dharma itself 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:09.360 as much as they can. And nowadays in India, more 00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:13.519 and more what you might call middle -class educated 00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:16.860 women, Indian women, not from the border regions, 00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.099 the Buddhist regions, but from the Hindu regions, 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:25.480 who are doing a lot of study, strict study, Madhyamaka, 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:31.659 logic, and so forth, Parchin. and doing retreats 00:54:31.659 --> 00:54:35.699 and so forth, as well as running their family 00:54:35.699 --> 00:54:40.300 and having their workplace and so forth. They're 00:54:40.300 --> 00:54:44.059 very, you know, taken up with all the various 00:54:44.059 --> 00:54:47.420 duties they have. But in addition, they have 00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:50.659 great devotion and love for the Buddha Dharma. 00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:54.199 So therefore, for them also, their life is very 00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:58.079 meaningful. Because apart from bringing up their 00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.239 families and going to work, they have something 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:04.639 really, really important holding in their hearts 00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:08.739 that they need to also maybe when they get older, 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.159 they'll do more retreats. I don't know. But suddenly 00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:14.219 there's this phenomenon in the last few years, 00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:18.659 many, many Indians, not of Buddhist backgrounds. 00:55:19.530 --> 00:55:23.429 have taken up serious study, exams, homework, 00:55:23.710 --> 00:55:26.650 everything, you know. These geshes are teaching 00:55:26.650 --> 00:55:34.230 online. And, yeah, they're very, very sincere, 00:55:34.309 --> 00:55:38.210 and it's given a lot of meaning to their life. 00:55:39.469 --> 00:55:44.869 It's like a deep revival of Buddhism in India. 00:55:45.469 --> 00:55:48.929 Yes, there is. There really is. Before, you hardly 00:55:48.929 --> 00:55:51.130 had a handful of Indians coming for teachings. 00:55:51.510 --> 00:55:57.190 Now, two -thirds are Indians and beautiful people, 00:55:57.469 --> 00:56:01.210 lovely, lovely people. When I used to give talks, 00:56:01.269 --> 00:56:07.190 like in Mumbai and Pune, Bangladesh, Delhi, hundreds 00:56:07.190 --> 00:56:11.809 of people came, but they're all Indian. And also 00:56:11.809 --> 00:56:14.599 from their questions, you could tell. They really 00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:18.059 knew what they were talking about. And they were 00:56:18.059 --> 00:56:23.280 very, very sincere practitioners. So it's interesting. 00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.739 I mean, Buddha was an Indian after all, so why 00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:30.480 not go back to Indian Buddhism, not just Tibetan 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.579 Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism, Thai Buddhism. 00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:37.320 What about Indian Buddhism? Yeah. And, of course, 00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:39.900 His Holiness has emphasized that so much as well. 00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:43.360 It's very important. Then they can really connect. 00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:47.840 Because that way of seeing life, which the Buddha 00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:50.719 taught, was something which was also quite current 00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:55.559 in India. I mean, in a way that it was a rather 00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:59.559 different idea in China. I mean, the Chinese 00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:02.519 had to work at trying to understand these ideas 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:06.940 because they had Confucianism and Taoism. But 00:57:06.940 --> 00:57:11.219 in India, although mostly India was forgotten 00:57:11.219 --> 00:57:15.210 for so many hundreds of years, the underlying 00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:21.710 ideas are still there in Hinduism. And so it's 00:57:21.710 --> 00:57:25.650 not so difficult for them to make that very strong 00:57:25.650 --> 00:57:36.090 heart connection. It strikes me as a vision for 00:57:36.090 --> 00:57:40.769 our world that the contemplative communities 00:57:41.599 --> 00:57:44.900 of course, historically primarily monastic, but 00:57:44.900 --> 00:57:47.800 maybe now in our world, more and more a mix of 00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:51.840 monastic and lay contemplative communities. It's 00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.559 the very presence coming back to changing a place 00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:57.940 by the practice that's done there that then draws 00:57:57.940 --> 00:58:00.639 that interest generation after generation of 00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.440 people around who want to know more about, well, 00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:05.960 what do they practice there? What do they study 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:09.079 there? And that can change a civilization, can't 00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:14.230 it? Slowly but surely. I mean, human beings, 00:58:14.289 --> 00:58:16.150 if you look at history, have always been fighting 00:58:16.150 --> 00:58:19.250 each other. Really, we're useless. Every time 00:58:19.250 --> 00:58:22.110 we say, oh, never again, and then take a blink 00:58:22.110 --> 00:58:24.670 and we're off again bombing people. And then 00:58:24.670 --> 00:58:27.489 it gets worse and worse because obviously our 00:58:27.489 --> 00:58:31.610 weapons get more and more lethal. But at the 00:58:31.610 --> 00:58:35.750 same time, there is this other undercurrent of 00:58:35.750 --> 00:58:41.679 interest in... you could call it inner spiritual, 00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:47.619 that people are beginning to think there must 00:58:47.619 --> 00:58:50.320 be more to life than just this. Because also 00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:54.019 now more and more people also are becoming quite 00:58:54.019 --> 00:58:58.199 affluent and they are looking at their lives 00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:02.579 and again asking, well, there must be more. I 00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:06.119 have a big house. I'm the CEO of my company. 00:59:06.809 --> 00:59:10.110 I've got a nice wife, good family, big cars. 00:59:10.610 --> 00:59:17.449 I've got everything. But it's not enough. And 00:59:17.449 --> 00:59:21.550 I mean, even Indians living in America, they 00:59:21.550 --> 00:59:23.710 think, what shall I do? And then they think, 00:59:23.849 --> 00:59:34.250 India. There's something special about India. 00:59:34.329 --> 00:59:39.010 It's true. despite everything. But that search 00:59:39.010 --> 00:59:42.929 for some real meaning in life, what is the purpose 00:59:42.929 --> 00:59:46.170 of life? And young American students who come 00:59:46.170 --> 00:59:49.369 over and stay for a few months in India and then 00:59:49.369 --> 00:59:53.130 they come and, you know, ask questions. One of 00:59:53.130 --> 00:59:56.250 their questions is always, what is the real meaning 00:59:56.250 --> 00:59:59.610 of life? How can I make my life purposeful? How 00:59:59.610 --> 01:00:02.510 can I serve others and at the same time help 01:00:02.510 --> 01:00:06.800 myself? So this is very good, you know, that 01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:11.739 they are asking the right questions. So we shouldn't 01:00:11.739 --> 01:00:16.739 give up hope, right? We have so many Russians 01:00:16.739 --> 01:00:20.139 this afternoon. We had 12, 14 Russians come. 01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:23.559 I mean, every other week we have all these Russians 01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:27.820 and sometimes Ukrainians and, of course, Israelis 01:00:27.820 --> 01:00:33.550 desperately looking for some answers. because 01:00:33.550 --> 01:00:36.630 of the pain that they feel at what's happening 01:00:36.630 --> 01:00:39.809 and how utterly, utterly devastating and at the 01:00:39.809 --> 01:00:45.309 same time utterly useless it all is. And so they 01:00:45.309 --> 01:00:49.530 are also looking for some answers so that they 01:00:49.530 --> 01:00:53.869 can find some meaning to why they are on this 01:00:53.869 --> 01:01:00.050 planet and how they can help others. It's a hard 01:01:00.050 --> 01:01:04.320 one, you know, but... That's why we're here. 01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:08.059 Samsara is Samsara, right? We shouldn't try to 01:01:08.059 --> 01:01:14.480 make Samsara too comfortable. Because it isn't. 01:01:16.260 --> 01:01:22.679 Thank you for being a light. A light in that 01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:27.920 vortex. So thank you for your questions and for 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:31.369 all that you're doing here to help Alan. You 01:01:31.369 --> 01:01:35.369 know, Alan came to the nunnery two years running 01:01:35.369 --> 01:01:40.329 to teach the nuns first shamatha and then vipassana 01:01:40.329 --> 01:01:45.110 according to the Dujun Limpa term. And when he 01:01:45.110 --> 01:01:48.409 first walked in and he was wearing his, you know, 01:01:48.429 --> 01:01:51.889 kind of yogi outfit, you might say. And they'd 01:01:51.889 --> 01:01:55.309 only seen him arrive in trousers and jeans. And 01:01:55.309 --> 01:01:58.150 now he was in his skirt and his zen and everything. 01:01:58.389 --> 01:02:01.610 And I could see all the nuns were going, who's 01:02:01.610 --> 01:02:06.949 this guy, this Westerner? And then he started 01:02:06.949 --> 01:02:09.190 talking to them, of course, in fluent Tibetan. 01:02:09.670 --> 01:02:13.849 And they all went, oh! And then they listened. 01:02:13.989 --> 01:02:16.630 Then they really listened. And they got a lot 01:02:16.630 --> 01:02:19.329 from that. It was wonderful. Really kind of him 01:02:19.329 --> 01:02:24.710 to do that. and for them also to have the oldest 01:02:24.710 --> 01:02:27.969 teaching, which they could then implement into 01:02:27.969 --> 01:02:34.170 their practice. So it was wonderful. I have listened 01:02:34.170 --> 01:02:36.110 to those retreats. I haven't quite finished the 01:02:36.110 --> 01:02:39.449 second one yet, but I can say that those teachings 01:02:39.449 --> 01:02:41.389 are really the foundation of what we're doing 01:02:41.389 --> 01:02:45.809 here. Exactly the foundation from the Vajra Essence, 01:02:45.909 --> 01:02:48.989 Yul Tijun Lingpa, and of course so many other. 01:02:50.900 --> 01:02:53.139 supportive and auxiliary teachings, but that 01:02:53.139 --> 01:02:56.960 really is the foundation. Yeah. Well, the nuns 01:02:56.960 --> 01:02:59.900 really appreciated it. So really, thank you, 01:02:59.920 --> 01:03:04.139 Lama Alan. Thank you. And he sends you his warmest 01:03:04.139 --> 01:03:07.980 regards. Yes. So he's in retreat here. He's in 01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:11.119 retreat here now. Wonderful. Yeah. He needs, 01:03:11.300 --> 01:03:14.599 you know, he's been given out so much for so 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:18.360 long. It's good to hear that now he's also taking 01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:22.019 back in again. Yeah. This is long awaited retreat. 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:28.039 So take care, my dear. Be well. Thank you. Thank 01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:32.639 you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining 01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:35.840 us for this conversation. If you liked what you 01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.039 heard today, please take a moment to rate the 01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:41.300 podcast, share it with a friend and leave a comment 01:03:41.300 --> 01:03:43.820 telling us what you liked or what you hope to 01:03:43.820 --> 01:03:47.119 see us explore in the future. We look forward 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:51.369 to having you here next time. Fathom the Mind 01:03:51.369 --> 01:03:53.789 is produced by the Center for Contemplative Research, 01:03:54.110 --> 01:03:58.309 a 501c3 non -profit organization based in Crestone, 01:03:58.389 --> 01:04:02.289 Colorado. 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