WEBVTT

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Hi everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection

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podcast. Today I am super excited because, and

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this is kind of funny actually, because I have

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Annette as a guest and she's one of my training

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partners. So you would be like, well, dude, you

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see her all the time. Well, yes, I do. However,

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I still am dying to pick her brain and I've been.

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Holding off on certain things because I wanted

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to kind of wait for this episode. And how did

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this start? Well, I knew Annette was a professor

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at NYU. And that's about all I knew that she

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did there for a while. And then one day we're

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training. This happened a couple times. And something

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happens with one of the dogs. And I'm like, oh,

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that's so interesting. All right. I'll tell this

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one story because I do think this is fascinating.

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So our friend's dog mouths the dumbbell really

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bad. Right. And doesn't want to give it up and

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the glove, but whatever. And it's got a long

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history and, you know, tried everything under

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the sun. So so we're like, all right, well, I

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don't know. We'll ponder it. We don't really

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have a solution. But oh, by the way. When your

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dog picks up the dumbbell, it does like this

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big loopy turn thing before it comes back. And

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oh, it's not even thinking about front till it

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lands in front of you. So let's address those

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two things. How about when you picked up the

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dumbbell, we're like, come, like stop parading

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around, get back here. And hey, front, like think

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about fronting. So she's... Doing that, I don't

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know, for a few weeks or whatever. And all of

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a sudden we're standing there and I'm like, I

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go, I look at Annette and I'm like, um, he's

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not mouthing the dumbbell. How come he's not

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mouthing the dumbbell? And we're like, I think

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it's because he's thinking about coming and fronting.

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And therefore he doesn't have until like, he's

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not thinking about chewing or holding onto it.

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So like it fixed it like kind of by accident.

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Right. And then Annette spouts off a psychology

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theory and explains it in such an excellent way.

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I'm like, oh, that's such a good way to explain

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that. And so that happened a couple of times.

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And all of a sudden I come to find out, well,

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Annette will explain what she actually teaches

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at NYU. And then I'm like, why? not using more

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of what you teach in our dog training. So, Lynette,

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do you want to tell everybody what you actually

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do? Okay. So, sure. I teach in a master's program

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in organizational psychology. And organizational

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psychology is basically the psychology of people

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in the workplace. So, it covers a wide variety

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of behaviors, but the two things I specialize

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in and the one that's probably most relevant

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here is work motivation. And then I also teach

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about leadership. So, yeah. So, you know, there's

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a lot of overlap between motivation of people

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at work and of dogs and of all of it. So, yeah.

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And you train dogs. So tell us about your dog

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training history as well, because you also teach

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training classes and you also compete. Yeah.

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So they actually both things started about the

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same time because I defended my dissertation.

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I got my doctorate from Columbia and picked up

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my very first puppy in the same week. We also

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closed on a house. It was a pretty big week.

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So that was back in 1996. So me being me and

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kind of always being afraid of the unknown and

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wanting the illusion of control, I researched

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everything before we did that. So I knew I wanted

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a well -behaved pet. So we signed her up even

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before we had her for pet training classes at

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Princeton Dog Training Club with Petra. I know

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you remember Elsie Walker. She was teaching them

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then. And I kind of. My husband was actually

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the one who started, and I kind of watched him

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for a while and said, I can do better. And I

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took over. Excuse me. Push him aside. I kind

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of, you know, I was like, well, let me try this.

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And then, yeah, so then I kind of got into it.

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Elsie and, you know, they talked me into doing

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the competition classes with Kathy, and I kind

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of never looked back. So she was my first dog

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I ever had. She was a Black Lab. I'd always wanted

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a Black Lab. And she got her UD. and six UDX

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legs, and I had to retire her because she wasn't

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sound. And then when she was three, we got another

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dog from the same breeder, and he also got a

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UD. Probably could have done better if I'd known

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more about what I was doing. And he was a really

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nice boy, and when he was 10, we bred him a couple

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times, kept one of the puppies, and she was my

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first otch dog. Then we bred her and ended up

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keeping both of the surviving puppies. That was

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not the original plan. They were my next otch

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dogs. One of them, Cookie, went on to otch for

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UDX 12 and made top 20 at the NOC. And they just

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retired. And now I've got a young dog who I'm

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really excited about. And you're doing Rally

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now. Yeah, I'm doing Rally with the older girls

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who are semi -retired just for something to do

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with them. They're enjoying it. They're having

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a blast. Cookie's doing hunt tests with my husband.

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So I am letting him train dogs again. Yeah. And

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a few years ago, Staten Island Dog Training Club

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reached out to me and asked if I would teach

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competition classes. And I hadn't really thought

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about it, but I was like, you know, I've been

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teaching for years. I've been training for years.

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Yeah, why not give it a try? And I've been enjoying

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that quite a bit. And then a year or so ago,

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I applied to be a judge because Kathy Walker

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pushed me. And so I'm provisional for novice,

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hoping to move up to open soon. So, yeah, that's

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my dog life. Fantastic. So back to my story about

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the retrieve and the hold. So when I said that,

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what did you say? God, I don't even remember.

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You named the theory, that theory where they

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can only think about one thing at a time. Oh,

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yeah. It's not a specific theory. It's just a

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concept. are, and I assume dogs as well, have

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what we call limited attentional resources. Our

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brains can only be processing so much at once.

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And when he was processing, I have to front,

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I kind of left not enough room for anything else.

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Right. So I thought that was super interesting

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because that was just a really succinct and clear

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way to explain What I would have explained, because

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I've been like, oh, that's so interesting. And

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I would have gone into this long story because

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I'm not good at breaking things down like that.

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And I also think that's a good thing just for

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us to understand because it works for humans

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as well as for dogs, right? Oh, 100%. only process

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so much at a time so I'm working on this a lot

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with my human students right now because they

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tend to not be good at mastering steps before

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they move on to the next steps and dog training

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is so complicated that then their brain like

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explodes and things are a mess So I feel like

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they should master a step first, like, for example,

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mark, praise, then cookie. So that it gives them

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more mental space then to then process other

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things. Would that kind of be in line with that?

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concept. Absolutely. Because I was actually reading

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the other day that they estimate that, excuse

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me, about 95 % of our cognitive processing is

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at the unconscious or subconscious level. And

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when we form habits, which is what you're kind

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of talking about, getting so good at like, I

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mean, I know you don't think really hard about

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marking and rewarding. It's just natural to you,

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right? So it becomes a habit, which means it's

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happening at the unconscious or the subconscious

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level. And that frees up more of your conscious

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processing, which is the part that's really limited.

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So that's kind of what sounds to me like what

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you're saying you want your students to be able

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to do. Correct. Wow. Only 5 % available. No wonder

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we're a mess. Now, I don't know how true that

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stat is, but it's widely shared in the field.

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So somebody's figured that out somehow. Wow.

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So I wonder if that's the same for dogs, right?

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And so there should be something to be said then.

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that we should make as many things a habit, right?

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Yeah, absolutely. Huh. So then, hmm. So then

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what about, where would that fall in then though

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with proofing? Well, it would be so proofing

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makes the habit stronger. Well, so I was thinking

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about this the other day. When you're learning

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things, you learn better. if you have to interact

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with the material in some way. So like if you

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just read a paragraph over and over, that's not

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going to stick in your head as well as if you

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have to then translate in your own words to explain

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it to someone else, because at that point you're

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making deeper connections and you're encoding

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it at a lower, at a deeper level. So I was thinking

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about that in the terms of the dogs and the proofing.

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And I think if they have to solve the problem

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by like, Because proofing presents a problem,

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right? A conundrum for them. Do I interact with

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that or do I do my job? And I think if they have

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to solve the problem, they're interacting with

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kind of what it takes to do the job, the kind

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of material for them in a deeper way. And it

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makes it stronger behavior for them, a stronger

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understanding of it anyway. Yeah, that's interesting

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because it's kind of like this book I started

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to read. Don't ask me the name because I don't

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remember. I just started reading it. But it does

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say that like exactly what you said, that the

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rote memorization, that that's what people always,

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which would be drilling, right? Having our dog

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do it over and over and over and over. And I'm

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like, oh my God, why did you just do 30 reps?

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Like if I have to, I say that constantly, right?

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But that's like instinct. It's like, it's, and

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it says that even professional athletes, like

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they'll do that. even when presented with the

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data, it's like this weird instinctual thing

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that people will go and do that. And that, that

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is not the most, the best way to learn the material.

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Um, so that really, and what's so interesting

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about that is kind of by accident, like we've

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done this, I don't know if you want to call an

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experiment because so, um, and that has a young

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dog that, um, Since she was a baby baby, she's

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been training her under, I would say, challenging

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conditions. Yeah, definitely. I just kind of

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threw her in with the big dogs. Yeah, so whatever

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we set up for the big dogs, then when it's puppy's

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turn, she just gets trained. Well, we don't like

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overwhelm her, but she gets exposed right from

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day one to those hard things. And I started doing

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that with some of my students, young dogs as

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well. And it's been, to say astounding, I would

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say would be an understatement. Like, don't you

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agree? I'm amazed by what she can do and what

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she understands. You know, like just yesterday

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when we were doing the go outs to the back of

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Carl's building, you know, no gates, no stanchions,

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no nothing. And she just ran straight. And I

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was like, that would have taken my older dogs

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years and years to master that. And she just

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understood it. And it was outside in a section

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we've never trained her there before. Same with

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when we did the articles. We set the dogs up

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in the driveway. The articles were in the grass.

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The grass was high. Couldn't even really see

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the articles because Est couldn't. He ran out.

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He's like, I don't know where I'm going. And

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she was just like, like a rock, like zero, like

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there was just zero confusion. Like it was like

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she'd done it a hundred times before. The dog's

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like, how old is she? 20 months? 18 months. Jesus

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Christ. And I think it's because of that. Look,

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learning theory, like, cause we trained her that

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way. I really do in large part. I mean, sure.

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There's something to be said for genetics and,

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you know, obviously you're an experienced trainer

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at this point, but still it's pretty astounding.

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And I'm seeing it with some of my other students'

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dogs as well. So. Definitely something to be

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said for drilling not being the most efficient

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thing. People, stop drilling. Yeah, I mean, I

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really feel with her that because she's had to

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do the exercises in so many different contexts

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and so many different surroundings that she really

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understands what the meat of the exercise is.

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She doesn't have all that. It's not like I only

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do this when it looks like this. She's like,

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I do this no matter what. Which I think that

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that bodes a problem for a lot of dogs because

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that's how most people introduce all the exercises

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to new puppies and green dogs is that, you know,

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they make everything sterile. They make everything

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easy. And that's the picture that the dog learns

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that piece in. And then when you start to add

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the quote unquote proofs. then the picture changes

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and that like yeah I think that's there's something

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huge to be said about that big time that's the

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way I did it and that's the way I said to do

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oh no the dog has to learn it well first now

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I'm like oh for goodness sakes like I've been

00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:31.220
doing this all wrong yeah and then like I'm sure

00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:33.960
there's been times where she's gotten stuck or

00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:39.549
confused right and now like And then you just

00:15:39.549 --> 00:15:44.850
help her, right? And then life goes on. Exactly.

00:15:45.350 --> 00:15:49.230
Well, we helped her, but like not a lot, right?

00:15:49.350 --> 00:15:52.610
What we've also done, and I'm having my students,

00:15:52.629 --> 00:15:58.090
it's absolutely fascinating to watch, where the

00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:00.669
first thing we do is give them a chance to figure

00:16:00.669 --> 00:16:04.610
it out themselves. And that's, I think, in that

00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:07.370
what you described, right? Where the dog is...

00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:12.299
You're giving the dog the opportunity to say,

00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:19.320
let me regurgitate the material and see if I

00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:24.879
can, if I understand it. Like versus the second

00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.779
the dog struggles, we didn't run in and help

00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:32.220
her immediately. We just kind of let her muck

00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:34.639
it up a little bit and figure it out. Right?

00:16:34.820 --> 00:16:39.120
Wouldn't you say? Yeah, exactly. I mean, if she

00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.759
got really, but she didn't really do that very

00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.059
often, get really stressed about it. She just

00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:46.220
keeps trying. And you say, yeah, yeah, you're

00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:50.779
fine. Well, because we taught her from the beginning,

00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:55.899
right, that we, you kind of empowered her and

00:16:55.899 --> 00:16:58.600
we're like, you can figure this out. And then

00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.399
the dog starts to go, oh, I can solve this, this

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:06.910
puzzle myself. Right. Like, I don't. I don't

00:17:06.910 --> 00:17:09.309
need you. I have this video. It's so fascinating.

00:17:09.529 --> 00:17:12.230
It's this, um, my student's puppy. It was like,

00:17:12.289 --> 00:17:14.430
I want to say it could not have been more than

00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:18.410
10 or 12 weeks old. She took it to her adult

00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:21.869
dogs class. So she's outside the ring. The puppy

00:17:21.869 --> 00:17:24.930
was running to the mat, right? Maybe it was like,

00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:27.630
I don't know, 10, 15 feet in front of her. So

00:17:27.630 --> 00:17:31.769
puppy runs to the mat, runs back, starts to run

00:17:31.769 --> 00:17:36.289
to the mat, gets distracted, wanders away. right

00:17:36.289 --> 00:17:41.589
she does nothing which is very not not typical

00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:44.529
right we would intervene and we're like ah that

00:17:44.529 --> 00:17:48.569
the puppy's leaving puppy wanders away because

00:17:48.569 --> 00:17:50.710
it just got distracted it's a puppy and then

00:17:50.710 --> 00:17:53.950
she leaves it be and then all of a sudden the

00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:57.990
puppy goes snaps his head around and goes wait

00:17:57.990 --> 00:18:02.490
i'm supposed to be going to the mat looks at

00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:06.980
the mat runs to the mat sits on the mat And then

00:18:06.980 --> 00:18:09.779
the next rep runs straight to the mat perfectly.

00:18:09.980 --> 00:18:15.140
And that's like very similar to what Annette's

00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:18.160
dog Leah does, right? Like she gets stuck and

00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.460
then she just puzzles it out. And then on the

00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:27.859
next rep, she does it perfect. And I think we're

00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:31.210
just teaching the dog. To also be resilient.

00:18:31.250 --> 00:18:34.369
Is there some something about resilience with

00:18:34.369 --> 00:18:37.230
like learning theory and motivation and all that?

00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:41.710
There is. There is. That's not something I'm

00:18:41.710 --> 00:18:45.009
super familiar with. I do know there is some

00:18:45.009 --> 00:18:47.630
stuff in resilience. But I was thinking when

00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:49.069
you were talking about I was thinking about in

00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:52.670
terms of what we call needs theories that talk

00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.130
about what you want out of life that that then

00:18:55.130 --> 00:18:58.190
drives your goals. And the prominent one for

00:18:58.190 --> 00:19:00.529
people is that we have needs for competence,

00:19:00.829 --> 00:19:03.410
relatedness, and autonomy. And I think dogs do

00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:06.190
too. And so by solving problems, it lets them

00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:08.569
feel a sense of, I can do this. I am competent.

00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:13.630
I can do things. And that reduces anxiety. And

00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:15.650
also autonomy. I get to make my own choices about

00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:18.630
some things. That also reduces anxiety. So I

00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:20.190
think that kind of feeds into the resilience

00:19:20.190 --> 00:19:24.279
piece. I think that's so important what you just

00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.680
said about it reducing anxiety, like super important

00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.160
because I think that when we have this tendency

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:40.500
to micromanage, guilty, and over -reinforce and

00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:44.880
micromanage that we create learned helplessness.

00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:52.210
And that is not a comfortable feeling. for a

00:19:52.210 --> 00:19:57.009
human or a dog. And the original studies on learned

00:19:57.009 --> 00:19:58.910
helplessness were done with dogs, so we know

00:19:58.910 --> 00:20:02.230
it definitely happens to them. Oh, really? Yep.

00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:06.970
And so was that where they just reinforced them

00:20:06.970 --> 00:20:09.730
too much or were they just helped them too much?

00:20:10.049 --> 00:20:12.390
Well, they didn't do either. So learned helplessness,

00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:14.650
the way they did the studies, they originally

00:20:14.650 --> 00:20:17.759
put dogs in these cages with... And then had

00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.059
a low -level electric shock. Now, in some of

00:20:20.059 --> 00:20:21.660
the cages, they could jump out. And that's what

00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:24.059
most normal, healthy dogs do. They jump out.

00:20:24.259 --> 00:20:26.680
This is uncomfortable. I'm leaving. But they

00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:28.640
also put some of them in cages where they couldn't

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.299
jump out. And eventually, the dogs just kind

00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:33.920
of gave up and took it. They just lay there no

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:35.759
matter what was going on. And then when they

00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:37.359
moved them to a cage where they could have jumped

00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.799
out, they didn't try. Because they learned that

00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:42.579
there's nothing I can do to help myself in this

00:20:42.579 --> 00:20:45.730
situation. And even if they saw another dog jump

00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:47.750
out, they still didn't try because they've just

00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:49.910
given up. They just said, I can't, I have no

00:20:49.910 --> 00:20:52.569
power. There's nothing I can do. So that's where

00:20:52.569 --> 00:20:55.329
the original study was. And then it got, they

00:20:55.329 --> 00:20:57.789
started doing it with people and aversive noises.

00:20:57.869 --> 00:20:59.630
And then it became part of the whole literature

00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:01.910
on depression and anxiety. But it started with

00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:07.309
dogs in cages. Wow. And interestingly, fun fact

00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:08.789
that has nothing to do with anything, the guy

00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:11.009
who did all that literature, he spent the rest

00:21:11.009 --> 00:21:12.750
of his career studying happiness. So there you

00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:16.200
go. Well, probably because he was so depressed.

00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:20.900
Most likely, yeah. Oh my gosh. Electrocuting

00:21:20.900 --> 00:21:25.819
dogs. Because I found that out like, you know,

00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.779
a few years ago that, oh, that's what he did

00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:29.220
after. I was like, oh, that's kind of funny.

00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:32.940
So anyway, fun fact. That is very funny. So what

00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:37.420
about motivation, right? Like, because I think

00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:43.170
that's really important. For humans, so there's

00:21:43.170 --> 00:21:47.089
extrinsic and intrinsic, right? Well, you could

00:21:47.089 --> 00:21:49.910
describe it better than I could. So could you

00:21:49.910 --> 00:21:53.009
describe extrinsic and intrinsic motivation in

00:21:53.009 --> 00:21:56.069
humans? And then maybe see if there's anything

00:21:56.069 --> 00:22:01.789
in there we could apply to dogs. Sure. And I

00:22:01.789 --> 00:22:03.509
think there absolutely does apply to dogs. So

00:22:03.509 --> 00:22:05.470
extrinsic motivation is when you're motivated

00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:08.759
by something that comes. externally to you. So

00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.339
it could be money. It could be praise. It could

00:22:12.339 --> 00:22:14.240
be anything that's kind of handed to you by someone

00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.039
else or by the environment. Intrinsic motivation

00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.420
comes from feelings, internal feelings. So a

00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:23.220
sense of accomplishment, achievement, enjoyment.

00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:27.440
That's the reinforcer for you is the internally

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:31.160
generated feelings. You know, obviously, mostly

00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.200
when we train dogs, we work with extrinsic motivators.

00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.819
We work with toys. We work with food. But I think

00:22:36.819 --> 00:22:38.940
when you start, like I know, Patri, you do a

00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:40.539
lot of this with the games and the game becomes

00:22:40.539 --> 00:22:43.339
fun for the dog. That's kind of changing it into

00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:45.700
more of an intrinsic motivator. They're doing

00:22:45.700 --> 00:22:48.240
it because it's fun. So that's intrinsic. So

00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.420
I think dogs absolutely can be intrinsically

00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:54.240
motivated. So do they, in human literature, do

00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:58.380
they feel like... Is one more powerful than the

00:22:58.380 --> 00:23:04.400
other or is it variable? Well, intrinsic is generally

00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:07.559
thought to be much better. A, because it is a

00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:09.000
little more powerful, you get a little bit more

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.339
performance. It also, because it can be one of

00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:13.940
the challenges and, you know, from reinforcement

00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.759
theory, the reinforcer has to be delivered. The

00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.680
timing is important, right? So extrinsically,

00:23:18.819 --> 00:23:21.200
when you're, you know, someone works really hard

00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.180
on a project and then it takes three months for

00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:25.839
payroll to process their bonus. that kind of

00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.740
really takes away the link between the behavior

00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:31.180
and the reward. But intrinsically, because you're

00:23:31.180 --> 00:23:32.779
administering it yourself, it happens almost

00:23:32.779 --> 00:23:35.460
immediately. So it's very powerful that way as

00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:40.319
well. And what's one interesting thing, and it

00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.140
comes from that self -determination theory that

00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:46.119
I mentioned earlier, is that if you start giving

00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:48.279
people extrinsic rewards for something that was

00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.640
otherwise intrinsically motivating, it can take

00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:52.799
away the intrinsic motivation. It takes away

00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.029
the pleasure. So you have to be kind of careful

00:23:55.029 --> 00:23:57.789
in humans anyway of when and how you administer

00:23:57.789 --> 00:24:00.609
extrinsic rewards. Because what it does, and

00:24:00.609 --> 00:24:02.349
it doesn't always, but it tends to have the person

00:24:02.349 --> 00:24:06.029
kind of receives it or perceives it. If they

00:24:06.029 --> 00:24:09.029
start thinking that, if it starts feeling controlling,

00:24:09.329 --> 00:24:12.150
like I'm doing this for this and you're controlling

00:24:12.150 --> 00:24:15.230
my behavior, that takes away the enjoyment. So

00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:17.490
because it kind of gives you another reason for

00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:19.150
why you're doing it. So I don't know how much

00:24:19.150 --> 00:24:21.809
that applies to dogs, but it's definitely, it's

00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:23.779
kind of an interesting. you know, interaction

00:24:23.779 --> 00:24:26.960
between the two types of reinforcers. So what

00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:34.079
if, so if my dog solves the problem, right. And

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:38.700
feels good about solving the problem. And then

00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:42.480
we're like, wow, good job. Maybe we shouldn't

00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:47.059
also be giving them a cookie or a toy. Right.

00:24:48.020 --> 00:24:50.240
Or at least randomly do it so it doesn't feel

00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:52.720
as connected and as manipulative. Although I

00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.200
don't know how much dogs think that way because

00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:57.299
we think that way. But they might just feel like,

00:24:57.339 --> 00:24:59.200
oh, cookie, yay. You know, like I don't know

00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:01.720
if they can't read as much into it. But yeah,

00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:03.980
when I work with my dogs, and I was telling my

00:25:03.980 --> 00:25:06.380
students this the other day, I try, the praise

00:25:06.380 --> 00:25:08.680
is the big thing. Yeah, you're awesome. That's

00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:10.539
wonderful. Oh, and here, I'll slip you a cookie.

00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:14.769
The focus from... And it's not necessarily on

00:25:14.769 --> 00:25:16.670
purpose. It just, it kind of what that does is

00:25:16.670 --> 00:25:18.309
it builds that the praise is the thing they're

00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:20.750
really responding to. Now they like the praise

00:25:20.750 --> 00:25:22.609
because it's always led to cookies, but eventually

00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:24.390
they like the praise just because they like the

00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:26.470
praise. It now has good feelings associated with

00:25:26.470 --> 00:25:31.750
it. Yeah, that's another thing that I found super

00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.670
interesting, which, and I had asked you about

00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:38.130
this after I realized what you actually did for

00:25:38.130 --> 00:25:41.210
a living, what you actually taught. I was like,

00:25:41.309 --> 00:25:47.269
because you, do not give a high rate of reinforcement

00:25:47.269 --> 00:25:54.730
in comparison to what the average competition

00:25:54.730 --> 00:25:59.130
trainer gives, I guess I would say, right? So

00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:02.509
you give on the lower end of reinforcement. And

00:26:02.509 --> 00:26:07.450
I asked you, are you doing that for a reason,

00:26:07.470 --> 00:26:12.099
like based on some theory? And you're kind of

00:26:12.099 --> 00:26:14.720
like, yeah, no, that's just what I do. Yeah,

00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.400
exactly. But now that we were talking about it,

00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.940
though, I do actually feel like it does, even

00:26:22.940 --> 00:26:26.460
if that's not why you did it, that the lower

00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:33.980
rate of reinforcement kind of does track with

00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:39.660
what we've been talking about. With the dog getting...

00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:46.400
intrinsic reinforcement from solving so the dogs

00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:50.119
you know a we're letting the dog solve the problem

00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:53.000
right we're saying yep you're a big boy or girl

00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.039
i'm not gonna micromanage you i'm gonna give

00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:58.299
you autonomy here you go solve that problem and

00:26:58.299 --> 00:27:00.319
the dog solves the problem we're like wow look

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:01.960
at you you solve the problem dog's like yeah

00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:07.960
i did didn't i and that feels good and building

00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:13.740
on that like consistently and so and then on

00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:17.599
top of that giving a lower rate of reinforcement

00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:22.640
and the dog your dog's perfectly fine with that

00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.259
yeah i mean like i said i don't think it was

00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:28.440
a conscious strategy my part but remember 95

00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.609
is unconscious so it may have right informed

00:27:31.609 --> 00:27:34.609
by that um it's more for me i just kind of watch

00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:36.609
them if they're super happy and they did the

00:27:36.609 --> 00:27:38.269
thing and they're happy and i praise them they're

00:27:38.269 --> 00:27:41.230
happy with that i don't feel the need to pile

00:27:41.230 --> 00:27:42.930
on i'm like okay they're happy they're motivated

00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:47.750
yay let's keep you know so i guess if i look

00:27:47.750 --> 00:27:49.750
and they don't look like that was all that fun

00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:51.329
and it's not that thrilling i feel like okay

00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:52.990
i need to motivate them more so i might up the

00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:55.170
reinforcement a little bit yeah but as long as

00:27:55.170 --> 00:27:57.529
they're they seem motivated i don't I don't worry

00:27:57.529 --> 00:28:00.789
about it too much. Right. Why is your dog motivated

00:28:00.789 --> 00:28:04.369
with a lower rate of reinforcement? Right. That

00:28:04.369 --> 00:28:06.970
that would be the question. Is it are we giving

00:28:06.970 --> 00:28:10.349
too much reinforcement because we're using the

00:28:10.349 --> 00:28:14.390
reinforcer as a bribe? Yeah, it should never

00:28:14.390 --> 00:28:15.230
be as a bribe. Lori, do you see where I'm going

00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:18.589
with this? What I'm trying to puzzle out? Well,

00:28:18.670 --> 00:28:20.829
I also wonder how much of it goes back to that

00:28:20.829 --> 00:28:24.950
thing I mentioned where too much extrinsic reinforcement.

00:28:26.009 --> 00:28:28.670
kills intrinsic motivation for humans. And I

00:28:28.670 --> 00:28:30.630
wonder if it does that for people, too, because

00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:32.710
sometimes I watch people and I feel like they're

00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:34.789
so hooked on the cookie and they turn the cookie

00:28:34.789 --> 00:28:36.789
into the big focus. The dog doesn't even notice

00:28:36.789 --> 00:28:39.769
that what it's doing is fun. Yeah, I agree. I

00:28:39.769 --> 00:28:43.130
agree. I think that definitely can can develop

00:28:43.130 --> 00:28:48.799
for sure. So it's kind of the same thing in humans

00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:50.960
is, you know, your boss constantly hammering

00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:52.480
on, we're paying you to do this, we're paying

00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:54.119
you to do this. And then you kind of think, well,

00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:57.039
this must not be any fun. So you don't even find

00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:02.420
the joy in what you're doing. Right. Yeah, that's

00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:05.500
so interesting. Yeah. And I think that's a huge,

00:29:05.539 --> 00:29:10.769
huge problem, right? Is that. I think that. And

00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:13.309
we talked about this briefly in our reinforcement

00:29:13.309 --> 00:29:17.269
episode, just the fact that humans are uncomfortable

00:29:17.269 --> 00:29:20.710
with struggle, whether they're uncomfortable

00:29:20.710 --> 00:29:23.269
with human struggling or not. They're very uncomfortable

00:29:23.269 --> 00:29:26.450
with the dogs struggling. And when I say struggle,

00:29:26.609 --> 00:29:30.150
I'm not saying your dog standing there like stress

00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:32.710
to the gills and you're just like, well, figure

00:29:32.710 --> 00:29:36.369
it out, dude. I'm talking about the dog, you

00:29:36.369 --> 00:29:40.309
know. struggling a little bit to solve a problem

00:29:40.309 --> 00:29:42.829
and then the dog solves the problem which is

00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:47.529
no different than you know things we struggle

00:29:47.529 --> 00:29:50.250
with when we're learning new footwork or learning

00:29:50.250 --> 00:29:52.869
how to train a dog or making mistakes training

00:29:52.869 --> 00:29:55.930
our dogs or you know whatever thing anything

00:29:55.930 --> 00:30:01.130
that we learn there's inherent struggle and learning

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.980
I think part of that comes from people not wanting

00:30:06.980 --> 00:30:09.200
to feel like they don't have control. And if

00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:10.700
you're staying there watching your dog, letting

00:30:10.700 --> 00:30:12.779
your dog puzzle it out, you're ceding control

00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.619
to the dog. And I think that makes some people

00:30:15.619 --> 00:30:18.200
uncomfortable. They kind of want to manage everything.

00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:19.619
They want to be the one in charge. Because we're

00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:21.640
control freaks, us dog trainers. Yeah, we all

00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.839
are. Yeah, why are we? Why are humans control

00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.279
freaks? Well, I don't know if all humans are

00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:30.140
control freaks, but I think dog trainers absolutely

00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:34.160
are. dog trainers absolutely are because we want

00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.259
the outcome to be the outcome we want it to be

00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:40.380
a certain way and i think that goes back to like

00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:44.579
the like giving all the cookies and then somehow

00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:51.819
diluting that intrinsic reinforcer because we

00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:55.180
because i think we want like like it was so it

00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:57.819
was so cool when you were like annette when you

00:30:57.819 --> 00:31:01.430
said i sort of just watched them And I'm like,

00:31:01.470 --> 00:31:03.789
they seem pretty happy and motivated just by

00:31:03.789 --> 00:31:05.789
me telling them that was freaking a great job

00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:07.970
you just did. So I don't give them a cookie.

00:31:08.049 --> 00:31:11.170
But I think many of us are like, but I need to

00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:15.049
make sure they really love, like, and know that

00:31:15.049 --> 00:31:18.750
I'm happy. So here's 50 cookies. Like, I think

00:31:18.750 --> 00:31:26.299
that we go to that place so quickly. not put

00:31:26.299 --> 00:31:28.579
that pause on like, just to kind of be like,

00:31:28.660 --> 00:31:31.799
put that, you know, that genuine, it's gotta

00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.960
be genuine. Like, wow, that was so good, buddy.

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:38.380
Holy crap. And watching your dog, cause I can

00:31:38.380 --> 00:31:40.759
see it. Like even with the puppy now, like, I'm

00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:45.880
like, wow. And he's like, yeah, I did. Right.

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:50.180
I did do it. And like, I still like, I do that.

00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:52.619
And then I still like, here's your fucking ball.

00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:55.680
Cause this is your end all reinforcer. Like when

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.819
I should maybe not do that. You know what I mean?

00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:01.880
Like, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like, because

00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:05.099
I need you to know really how proud I am, but

00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:10.460
I kind of just took away that piece, you know?

00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:15.480
That's interesting. I don't know if this is in

00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.950
any way related, but, um, confirmation bias,

00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:23.829
right? That's something and that and I have talked

00:32:23.829 --> 00:32:28.069
about in training. And the way it came up is

00:32:28.069 --> 00:32:35.109
like some of us like I'm keyed in. I have a confirmation

00:32:35.109 --> 00:32:40.710
bias towards errors, right? Like towards things

00:32:40.710 --> 00:32:44.250
that are wrong. I shouldn't even say wrong. So

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:46.750
it goes all the way back to I'm a physical therapist.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.559
My eye has been developed and my hands towards

00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:55.859
finding the piece that's missing, right? And

00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:58.380
then how do I put that piece back in there? So

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:02.549
if someone's moving incorrectly. I need to notice

00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:04.809
that. Where is that coming from? What piece is

00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:07.269
missing? How do I put that back in there? Then

00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:09.450
I do physical therapy on dogs. They can't even

00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:12.609
tell me. So I really need to have good eyes and

00:33:12.609 --> 00:33:14.809
hands. Right. And I really need to be able to

00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:18.349
see the slightest little thing what's off and

00:33:18.349 --> 00:33:20.549
or feel it and see it. Those are my only two

00:33:20.549 --> 00:33:25.269
options and fix it. Right. So like I'm that weirdo

00:33:25.269 --> 00:33:27.829
that like if I see somebody out in a store limping.

00:33:28.349 --> 00:33:30.750
you're not supposed to look right. I'm staring

00:33:30.750 --> 00:33:33.710
because I'm like, instinctively, I'm like, I

00:33:33.710 --> 00:33:36.650
must solve this problem. And then once I go,

00:33:36.769 --> 00:33:39.829
oh, it's their hip and then I can look away.

00:33:40.869 --> 00:33:43.210
I'm like, oh my God, my friends will be like,

00:33:43.230 --> 00:33:45.589
stop doing that. I'm like, sorry, I can't help

00:33:45.589 --> 00:33:51.069
it. Right. And then I teach. So what is my job?

00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:53.789
To see everything you're doing wrong and tell

00:33:53.789 --> 00:33:57.619
you how to do it right. So. When I'm working

00:33:57.619 --> 00:34:01.599
my dog, the second something is like slightly

00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:04.980
off, I know it's like to me, it's like a giant

00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:08.059
alarm bells are going off in my head, like that's,

00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:12.179
you know. So then I have I watch students and

00:34:12.179 --> 00:34:17.139
their dog blatantly does something wrong. They

00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:21.400
completely ignore it. The dog finishes and they're

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:23.900
like, wow. And they're reinforcing the dog. And

00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:27.269
I'm like, holy shit. And then I go, did you just

00:34:27.269 --> 00:34:30.369
see that your dog looked away like over there?

00:34:30.650 --> 00:34:35.849
No, it looked away. And so I look at a nut and

00:34:35.849 --> 00:34:39.489
I go, oh, my God. Like, why does this happen?

00:34:40.269 --> 00:34:48.269
And you are like, it's confirmation bias, but

00:34:48.269 --> 00:34:53.030
in the other direction. Right. To where they

00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:58.380
only see. What the dog they don't want to see.

00:34:58.460 --> 00:35:00.760
What what am I saying? And that helped me out.

00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:04.880
They only saw what the dog did right. They didn't

00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:08.880
notice. So they I distinctly remember when we

00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.780
had this conversation and what we were watching.

00:35:11.500 --> 00:35:13.840
The dog picked up the glove and the dog brought

00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.119
the glove back. So that was the part that got

00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:18.800
focused on and got praise. The fact the dog picked

00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:20.760
up the glove, looked all around and did a big

00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.699
circle on the way back. Which you were like,

00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.079
how could you not see that? That didn't even

00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.659
get noticed because it wasn't what they were

00:35:29.659 --> 00:35:31.360
looking for. They were looking for, is my dog

00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:32.820
retrieving the glob? They weren't looking for

00:35:32.820 --> 00:35:34.599
all the different pieces of what it should look

00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:38.760
like. So should we be telling our students to

00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:44.039
have the opposite confirmation bias? Look for

00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:47.139
all the wrong. Do you know what I'm saying? I

00:35:47.139 --> 00:35:49.920
think it comes back down to kind of basic goal

00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:53.559
setting. goals that are specific are going to

00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:55.900
drive behavior more. So general goal, like the

00:35:55.900 --> 00:35:59.440
dog retrieves the glove. Yeah, sure. That tells

00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.300
you, did the dog retrieve the glove? But it's

00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:03.260
kind of, there are a lot of different ways to

00:36:03.260 --> 00:36:05.840
retrieve a glove. Some of them are going to get

00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:07.980
you a higher score than others. So if you have

00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.079
a specific goal of my dog goes straight to the

00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:13.260
glove, picks it up, turns around without looking

00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:17.159
at anything else, trots or runs back, the more

00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.179
specific you get, the more it helps you look

00:36:19.179 --> 00:36:25.170
for. I think some people would be like, I'm just

00:36:25.170 --> 00:36:27.570
fucking happy it got the glove, you know? Yeah.

00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:30.190
And a lot of people are. Yeah. Which is fine,

00:36:30.489 --> 00:36:34.190
except this person's not. And that's why I'm

00:36:34.190 --> 00:36:37.369
pulling my hair out. And this is not exclusive

00:36:37.369 --> 00:36:41.230
to this person. This is a very common student

00:36:41.230 --> 00:36:48.710
scenario. Right. Yeah. Part of it in the case,

00:36:48.730 --> 00:36:50.869
especially if someone and the person you're talking

00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.650
about is not as experienced, they don't even

00:36:53.650 --> 00:36:55.989
know what to look for. They don't really have

00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:59.230
a good sense of the criteria of what a good retrieve

00:36:59.230 --> 00:37:00.690
looks like. And I think that's where you have

00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:02.809
to start with. These are the pieces you should

00:37:02.809 --> 00:37:06.090
be looking for. But there I think I think, though,

00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:11.070
there are students who should, quote unquote,

00:37:11.329 --> 00:37:15.119
know the criteria of what they're. goal is but

00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.820
then you can do it patron doesn't yell at them

00:37:16.820 --> 00:37:19.280
what you do not notice that because i've done

00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.900
that and and they'll do they'll do the thing

00:37:22.900 --> 00:37:28.360
and the dog executes it and there's some stuff

00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.860
that didn't go well or you know the criteria

00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:35.400
wasn't met and they let the dog do the entire

00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.480
thing and then they reward the dog and i always

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.800
say this is what i say to them did you like that

00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:47.179
And then they look at me and it's almost like

00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:49.739
they have to then they all of a sudden at that

00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:53.960
moment when I ask them, they have to take a second.

00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:59.059
They go, no, I didn't. And I say, well, then

00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:02.599
why did you reward it? And they say, I don't

00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:04.920
know. Like, they don't know. Like, I think in

00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.179
the moment they I don't know. Like, that's like,

00:38:08.179 --> 00:38:12.489
yeah. Why did you pay him for that? He totally

00:38:12.489 --> 00:38:13.889
did this, that, or the other thing. And they're

00:38:13.889 --> 00:38:15.090
like, I don't know. But it's almost like they

00:38:15.090 --> 00:38:17.710
didn't see it. They didn't see all the stuff

00:38:17.710 --> 00:38:23.030
I saw. Yeah. In the moment. In the moment. Like,

00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:25.289
if they were watching somebody else, they'd probably

00:38:25.289 --> 00:38:28.889
be going, oh, that was, ugh. But in their moment

00:38:28.889 --> 00:38:32.909
of their dog, like, they didn't see it until

00:38:32.909 --> 00:38:34.730
I had to say, did you like that? And then they

00:38:34.730 --> 00:38:38.349
were like, hmm. No, I really didn't. It was it's

00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:40.909
so interesting to me. So is that confirmation

00:38:40.909 --> 00:38:43.510
bias because it's their own dog and they don't

00:38:43.510 --> 00:38:45.849
want to see it? Or is that like cognitive overload

00:38:45.849 --> 00:38:48.730
because there's like so much stuff in their brain

00:38:48.730 --> 00:38:52.750
can't process it all? Or is it does that go back

00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:56.230
to goal setting that like you don't have a clear

00:38:56.230 --> 00:39:01.460
plan before you even. Ask the dog to do the exercise.

00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:04.219
Right. I mean, all of that overlaps, of course.

00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:06.039
I think for a lot of people, it goes back to

00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:07.739
not having a clear picture of what you're looking

00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:09.800
for. Because if you can say to someone, let's

00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.340
say the glove exercise, you're going to do this.

00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:14.760
And what you're looking for is, do they look

00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:16.780
around when they pick up the glove? That'll focus

00:39:16.780 --> 00:39:18.139
them usually to the point where they're like,

00:39:18.219 --> 00:39:20.300
OK, I'm looking at that. That's my criteria that

00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:22.000
I'm looking at. When they're trying to look at

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.019
the whole big picture, they lose the details.

00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:26.260
They lose the details, I think, and they lose

00:39:26.260 --> 00:39:30.380
confidence in. the ability to make that decision

00:39:30.380 --> 00:39:33.239
in the moment. You know what I mean? Oh, so that's

00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:37.139
another great point. So, and so we should be

00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:41.440
telling our students to focus on like that specific

00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:44.360
thing, which is the weakness or the piece of

00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:46.920
the exercise, which maybe the dog struggles with.

00:39:46.960 --> 00:39:50.500
So don't focus on the rest, focus on that one

00:39:50.500 --> 00:39:55.280
thing. Yep. Yeah. Or prioritize that in any event.

00:39:57.130 --> 00:40:00.789
Right. What can you tell us about goal setting?

00:40:00.969 --> 00:40:03.670
Because I think people are like planning and

00:40:03.670 --> 00:40:07.789
goal setting. I think people are so weak in that

00:40:07.789 --> 00:40:12.969
area. Like, you know, when when any of the three

00:40:12.969 --> 00:40:15.550
of us train together, it's like we just have

00:40:15.550 --> 00:40:18.150
this like internal thing where we're like, oh,

00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:19.710
yeah, I got to do this for this dog, this for

00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:24.030
that dog, whatever. But that is kind of rare.

00:40:24.210 --> 00:40:27.130
I don't know why. what it is, you know, why we

00:40:27.130 --> 00:40:32.690
can do it. But most people, I feel like their

00:40:32.690 --> 00:40:40.650
training's very haphazard. It absolutely is.

00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:43.510
And I think it goes back to not having real clarity

00:40:43.510 --> 00:40:45.610
in what they're looking for and what they want.

00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:48.110
So we know from goal -setting theory that for

00:40:48.110 --> 00:40:50.809
a goal to be motivating and effectively drive

00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:53.090
behavior, it needs to be, as I said, specific.

00:40:53.289 --> 00:40:56.579
It should also be challenging. So achievable,

00:40:56.659 --> 00:41:00.260
but a little bit of a push in the industry. They

00:41:00.260 --> 00:41:03.219
call them stretch goals. But I think this dumping

00:41:03.219 --> 00:41:05.280
specific enough is kind of hard because I'll

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.239
say to students, you know, well, what's your

00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:08.940
goal for this trial? And they'll go, I want to

00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:12.500
do well. And so what does that mean? I don't

00:41:12.500 --> 00:41:15.039
know. I want to qualify. And like, well, qualifying

00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.619
could be a 170 up to a 200. That's kind of two

00:41:18.619 --> 00:41:20.739
very different things. Which are you looking

00:41:20.739 --> 00:41:23.809
at? What do you know? And. Sometimes when it

00:41:23.809 --> 00:41:25.570
comes down to it, when I actually get in the

00:41:25.570 --> 00:41:27.010
nitty gritty with talking to him, it's really

00:41:27.010 --> 00:41:28.349
they just don't want to make a fool out of themselves.

00:41:29.170 --> 00:41:31.489
And all of those drive completely different behaviors.

00:41:31.610 --> 00:41:33.570
If you're going for 170, you're going to train

00:41:33.570 --> 00:41:35.170
very differently than if you're going for 200.

00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:37.449
If your whole goal is not to embarrass yourself,

00:41:37.570 --> 00:41:39.809
that's a whole different set of behaviors. So

00:41:39.809 --> 00:41:41.590
I think people really need to kind of think very

00:41:41.590 --> 00:41:44.429
clearly about exactly what they want. What does

00:41:44.429 --> 00:41:46.269
it look like? What will it look like when I've

00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:48.650
achieved that? How will I know? Because that's

00:41:48.650 --> 00:41:51.570
the piece that's missing a lot of the time. And

00:41:51.570 --> 00:41:54.489
it has to be like the goals really shouldn't

00:41:54.489 --> 00:41:58.130
be extrinsic. Like that's very common. Right.

00:41:58.190 --> 00:42:00.730
And all like competition coaches, et cetera,

00:42:00.730 --> 00:42:02.829
mental management will tell you the same thing.

00:42:02.889 --> 00:42:06.530
Like it shouldn't be I'm going to cue or get

00:42:06.530 --> 00:42:09.429
a score or a placement because I think we talked

00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:11.309
about this yesterday or the other day. Yeah,

00:42:11.309 --> 00:42:13.929
we did. Because that doesn't it's not completely

00:42:13.929 --> 00:42:17.139
under your control. Correct. Like it's totally

00:42:17.139 --> 00:42:20.400
not in our control. So like what is in your control?

00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:24.780
Like I stayed focused or I stayed connected to

00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:29.420
my dog or I executed my footwork. Exactly. It

00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:31.039
should really be about your handling because

00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:32.480
you can't even control what your dog's going

00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:35.139
to do. You can influence it, but you can't control

00:42:35.139 --> 00:42:37.380
it. They're living beings. So it should be about

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:39.679
did I bring my A game? Did I do the handling

00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:43.400
I wanted to do? And if I did that, then I can

00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:45.079
feel good about it and make notes about what

00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:49.320
didn't work that I need to fix. But I don't think

00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:51.219
people define their goals in terms of their own

00:42:51.219 --> 00:42:53.239
handling anywhere near as much as they should.

00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:58.199
Yeah, I agree. I think it's because people just

00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:01.119
put too much on the dog and don't take enough

00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:06.920
responsibility for themselves. Do you know what

00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:12.210
I'm saying? Oh, 100%. Yeah, I wonder why that

00:43:12.210 --> 00:43:15.369
is. I don't know, but I keep telling people this

00:43:15.369 --> 00:43:20.150
is a team sport. You're part of the team. Yeah,

00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:24.829
but why do they feel like, why do they put so

00:43:24.829 --> 00:43:30.429
much on the dog and so little emphasis on themselves,

00:43:31.090 --> 00:43:34.989
right? Like, oh yeah, I know, my footwork sucks.

00:43:35.429 --> 00:43:42.809
Well, fix it! Like, don't keep saying, well,

00:43:42.849 --> 00:43:46.710
my bow turns are wide. How do I get my dog to

00:43:46.710 --> 00:43:49.289
do a tighter bow turn? How about you fix your

00:43:49.289 --> 00:43:52.349
footwork? And oh, look, your bow turns are fixed.

00:43:52.989 --> 00:44:00.889
Yeah. Like, what is it in human nature? Because

00:44:00.889 --> 00:44:03.250
is it because then we can blame the dog and then

00:44:03.250 --> 00:44:06.550
we don't have to look bad? I'm sure that's part

00:44:06.550 --> 00:44:09.000
of it. I mean, if we admit that our... performance

00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.179
sucks because it's us then we have to admit we're

00:44:11.179 --> 00:44:13.659
lousy handlers and that's kind of cognitively

00:44:13.659 --> 00:44:16.360
not that's cognitively more difficult than admitting

00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:20.079
our dog than believing our dog is at fault so

00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:22.519
it's a little bit of cognitive dissonance there

00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:27.760
all right people stop with the cognitive dissonance

00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:33.260
take responsibility and then yeah like people

00:44:33.260 --> 00:44:40.099
need to just like we're Like when we come out

00:44:40.099 --> 00:44:43.099
of a trial, like when I leave a trial, I look

00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:45.559
at what went well, what didn't, like what do

00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.760
I need to work on? What do I need to do, you

00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:50.579
know, improve upon? What do I need to change?

00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:55.579
What do I need to change? I think we need to,

00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:57.980
like people, again, they look at that with respect

00:44:57.980 --> 00:45:01.519
to the dog. They should reanalyze. So we should

00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.019
probably have goals for ourselves and goals for

00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:10.559
the dog, right? Yes. So then they should be,

00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:14.159
you should set goals for yourself, set goals

00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.679
for your dog's performance. Oh, this is another

00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:21.099
thing people don't do. Is there anything about

00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:25.860
like the optimal amount of reassessment or assessment,

00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.300
or I don't know what the proper terminology would

00:45:28.300 --> 00:45:31.750
be to make to. To determine whether or not we're

00:45:31.750 --> 00:45:34.090
actually making progress on our goals, people

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:36.690
like not do the same thing for three months and

00:45:36.690 --> 00:45:38.630
then go, oh, well, this hasn't been working the

00:45:38.630 --> 00:45:41.360
whole time. I don't know that there's anything

00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:43.199
on optimal amounts because it depends on the

00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:45.239
person, the situation. It's so variable. But

00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:47.179
yeah, it's definitely part of the process. So

00:45:47.179 --> 00:45:48.920
the process starts. You start with a goal. You

00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:51.119
exert effort towards that goal. And then at some

00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:54.059
point, you should be assessing your progress,

00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:56.420
right? We talk about that in terms of discrepancy.

00:45:56.420 --> 00:45:58.519
What's the discrepancy between where you are

00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:01.019
now and where you want to be? And how you feel

00:46:01.019 --> 00:46:02.820
about that discrepancy determines what you do

00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:06.619
next. But if you don't... Do that assessment.

00:46:06.739 --> 00:46:08.800
If you don't try to measure the discrepancy,

00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:10.500
you're not going to change anything and you're

00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:14.039
not going to be able to adapt your strategy if

00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:17.239
needed. So, yeah, there's not much on like how

00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:19.840
often you should do it because it's so variable

00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:23.019
and specific to the situation. But it's definitely

00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:26.920
an important part of the process for sure. Yeah,

00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:29.860
because I feel like I've seen people do that

00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:33.019
where they do their. you know kind of quote -unquote

00:46:33.019 --> 00:46:35.619
working on something and it's months down the

00:46:35.619 --> 00:46:40.619
line and it's like nothing's changed so you should

00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:43.000
have changed your plan and then sometimes I'll

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.039
be like how long have you been working on this

00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:48.960
and they'll be like their guesstimate is so completely

00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:55.519
like two weeks I'm like how about three months

00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:02.719
oh okay well yeah so maybe so documenting, right?

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:06.400
That's probably a big thing, right? I would imagine.

00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.440
Well, it helped because, you know, we're, we

00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.219
call it self -regulating in terms of goals, right?

00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:14.119
And at any given time, we're self -regulating

00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:16.579
on multiple things at once, which means we're

00:47:16.579 --> 00:47:18.340
not giving our full attention to any one of them.

00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.480
And so, you know, documenting it could help you

00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.840
kind of be able to go back and be more effective

00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:26.840
about what you're doing, just paying attention

00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:29.159
to what you're doing. And so when, you know,

00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.559
when one of the things I always say is when people

00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:33.380
try and multitask, they don't do anything well.

00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:35.380
You know, you're better off concentrating one

00:47:35.380 --> 00:47:37.940
or two things and then finishing those and going

00:47:37.940 --> 00:47:40.380
back to the rest of it. And that's the, and the

00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:43.840
world we live in now, we have, we are doing thousands

00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:47.900
of things all the time at the same time. Exactly.

00:47:47.900 --> 00:47:49.980
And those limited attentional resources are getting

00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:54.440
divided. Yeah. I think that plays a big part

00:47:54.440 --> 00:48:01.269
in it. Big part. Yeah. Oh God, sorry, my brain

00:48:01.269 --> 00:48:03.590
just went shooting off in another direction and

00:48:03.590 --> 00:48:06.210
I had to rein it in. Don't hold that thought,

00:48:06.309 --> 00:48:08.110
limit attentional resource because I want to

00:48:08.110 --> 00:48:10.489
go somewhere with the dogs with that. But yes,

00:48:10.809 --> 00:48:16.329
like the discipline that we need to exert, right,

00:48:16.469 --> 00:48:22.369
that we can't expect our dogs to be focused.

00:48:23.099 --> 00:48:25.400
and not be focused ourselves. And I think people

00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:28.619
really start to understand that when I make them

00:48:28.619 --> 00:48:32.099
and I say make them because I make them. Some

00:48:32.099 --> 00:48:35.880
people don't want to train their dog out in the

00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:40.400
world. The first thing almost across the board,

00:48:40.539 --> 00:48:42.940
one of the first things people will always come

00:48:42.940 --> 00:48:46.260
back and tell me is, wow, that was hard. I had

00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:49.860
such a hard time staying focused. And I'm like,

00:48:49.860 --> 00:48:53.269
well, imagine how your dog must feel. And I think

00:48:53.269 --> 00:49:00.110
that just our ability to stay focused on a task

00:49:00.110 --> 00:49:05.949
is a skill, right? Like I do things because I

00:49:05.949 --> 00:49:10.449
can feel that pull. Like I can feel it just from

00:49:10.449 --> 00:49:14.590
social media or from YouTube or different things.

00:49:14.730 --> 00:49:18.860
And like when I hike, for example, I... purposefully

00:49:18.860 --> 00:49:22.119
do not my phone is on me god forbid in case of

00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.960
an emergency that's it but I it's off I do not

00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:30.000
check it I don't have a watch on my arm and I

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.659
watched that like things because like I don't

00:49:32.659 --> 00:49:37.400
want to be looking listening checking I and I

00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:41.000
can feel how it takes me like a half hour half

00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:44.960
an hour until my brain actually stops going 8

00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:50.679
000 miles an hour And so what it sounds like

00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:52.300
you're describing is you're trying to get into

00:49:52.300 --> 00:49:54.920
what we call a flow state. And in a flow state,

00:49:55.059 --> 00:49:58.400
you're kind of wrapped up in what you're doing.

00:49:58.699 --> 00:50:00.760
And it's just you're not thinking about anything

00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:02.519
else. And you're not even thinking that hard

00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:04.579
about what you're doing. And we talk about that

00:50:04.579 --> 00:50:07.260
happening when you're kind of your goals and

00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.820
your performance or you're right in sync. You're

00:50:09.820 --> 00:50:12.199
working at peak performance and you're. focus

00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:14.579
on what you're doing. You don't know, you lose

00:50:14.579 --> 00:50:16.199
track of time, you lose track of everything.

00:50:16.579 --> 00:50:18.340
You have no idea what's going on around you.

00:50:18.659 --> 00:50:22.199
And that's, so it's called the flow state. And

00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:26.960
we try and figure out how people can better get

00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.440
into that because that's where you get your best

00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.619
performance. And one of the things is to shut

00:50:30.619 --> 00:50:33.340
off your phone, shut off your, you know, social

00:50:33.340 --> 00:50:35.760
media, shut off everything. Just kind of go out

00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.340
and just focus just on what you're doing. Yeah.

00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:44.239
And I think, too, what people I I have had that

00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:47.679
many times in the ring and I've worked on that.

00:50:47.739 --> 00:50:49.400
I, you know, look, I have a little advantage

00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:53.800
because of competing in different athletic endeavors

00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.179
and those things. But. Also, I don't think people

00:50:57.179 --> 00:50:59.679
are practicing that when they're training, right?

00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:04.719
So like when I'm training, I'm focused 100 %

00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.260
on my dog and on what I'm doing. Because if I

00:51:08.260 --> 00:51:11.019
can't do it when I'm training, there is no way

00:51:11.019 --> 00:51:12.699
in hell I'm going to be able to do it in the

00:51:12.699 --> 00:51:16.800
ring. And I don't think people do that. Like

00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.420
I think they're kind of casual and haphazard

00:51:19.420 --> 00:51:23.360
when they're training. And then when they...

00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.920
go in the ring and now they have the added stress

00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:30.639
and nerves and whatever. There's no way you can

00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:34.480
achieve it in the ring if you're not achieving

00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:41.400
it or working on achieving it in training. Completely

00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:46.760
agree. Completely agree. So back to what was

00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:49.500
the term that I told you to remember? Attentional

00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:53.119
resources. Yes. So our dogs have the same thing,

00:51:53.199 --> 00:52:01.199
right? Yeah. So that would mean that would be

00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:03.679
basically like the skill they have to develop

00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:09.579
of being able to focus around distractions, right?

00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:13.179
Which is why when a dog is first starting to

00:52:13.179 --> 00:52:15.320
work around distractions, like they may look

00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:21.329
be slower or look flatter because... they're

00:52:21.329 --> 00:52:24.409
it's hard because they only thinking too hard

00:52:24.409 --> 00:52:31.969
yeah yeah and I so I think that's important because

00:52:31.969 --> 00:52:39.590
and I have absolutely fallen prey to this misinterpreting

00:52:39.590 --> 00:52:44.280
that as oh The dog is sucky. The dog is flat.

00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:48.340
So let me make them faster. Let me do things

00:52:48.340 --> 00:52:52.159
to artificially make them faster, which I would

00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:56.860
imagine would make it even harder for them to

00:52:56.860 --> 00:53:00.940
concentrate. Absolutely. And that's part of the

00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:02.780
challenge because they can't tell us what's going

00:53:02.780 --> 00:53:05.980
on is the diagnosis. Are you lazy? Are you tired?

00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.780
Are you bored? Or are you just thinking too hard?

00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:11.099
Like we have to kind of figure that out for them.

00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:14.639
In order to know how to address it. And I think

00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.039
it's kind of funny because last weekend when

00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:20.519
we were doing that in Creek, Debbie was calling

00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:22.579
that really weird runoff pattern during the training

00:53:22.579 --> 00:53:24.519
thing. And you yelled at me that I was going

00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:26.860
too slow. That's because I was thinking too hard

00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:29.960
about both my footwork and where I was supposed

00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.219
to be going. And it did completely slow me down.

00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:34.119
And I'm like, I understand how my dogs feel now.

00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:38.760
So, yeah. Yeah. So we were doing these really

00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:45.139
long. complicated healing patterns and um in

00:53:45.139 --> 00:53:50.099
training and so in that and that's doing the

00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:52.159
pattern I'm outside the ring and I look over

00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:57.679
and I'm like why is she walking so slow and her

00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:00.780
dog's looking at her like it was hilarious her

00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:03.980
face That's what really made me notice because

00:54:03.980 --> 00:54:08.420
she's looking at you like, what, what is wrong

00:54:08.420 --> 00:54:10.840
with you? You don't normally walk like this.

00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:14.780
Like, why are you walking this slow? It was so

00:54:14.780 --> 00:54:17.980
funny. Yeah. So that's another good example of

00:54:17.980 --> 00:54:24.559
like, you know, the dogs go through the same

00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:28.159
in a lot of ways. They experience things very

00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:31.940
similar to the way we do. Wouldn't you say? I

00:54:31.940 --> 00:54:33.480
think so. I mean, there's no way to know for

00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.159
sure because. Right. But I absolutely think so.

00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:42.199
Yeah. Yeah. And then and then I why do people

00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:49.320
not understand that? Like you said, like you

00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.519
just said, like, oh, yeah, I went, oh, right.

00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:54.280
This is what my dog feels like. And I think that

00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:56.460
all the time. I'm like, oh, God, this is what

00:54:56.460 --> 00:55:01.860
my poor dog feels like. Right. Or I try to explain

00:55:01.860 --> 00:55:07.199
to people, like, for example, this is a big one.

00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.239
They reinforce their dog. The dog's in the middle

00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.440
of eating the cookie. Like, it's still going

00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:18.460
chomp, chomp, chomp. And they start healing or

00:55:18.460 --> 00:55:21.320
whatever. And I'm like, dude, the dog didn't

00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:24.300
even finish eating. Like, how can a dog concentrate

00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:30.969
on their job when it's still eating? Is there,

00:55:30.989 --> 00:55:35.929
like, some sort of a, like, transition thing

00:55:35.929 --> 00:55:39.230
in humans where they have to, like, right? Because,

00:55:39.230 --> 00:55:43.409
like, if you task switch, doesn't it, it requires

00:55:43.409 --> 00:55:48.730
a lot of energy, which is why they say jumping

00:55:48.730 --> 00:56:00.719
between tasks is not efficient. Mm -hmm. behavioral

00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.960
set that serves to that goal to a completely

00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.239
different one. And, you know, it's not that you

00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:08.880
can't do that on a dime. You have to kind of

00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:10.920
like, okay, I need to put this aside and then

00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:13.840
I need to start this. And it's, yeah, it takes

00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:15.840
some energy. And I think it does for dogs too.

00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:18.079
I was still hung up on though, on what you're

00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:19.559
saying. Why don't people understand that, you

00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.980
know, dogs see things a lot the same way we do.

00:56:22.059 --> 00:56:24.920
Cause I'm always telling my students, cause they

00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:27.699
don't, I didn't get a chance to listen to your

00:56:27.699 --> 00:56:30.610
reinforcement podcast yet, but. I know my students

00:56:30.610 --> 00:56:32.849
don't reinforce enough. And I don't just mean

00:56:32.849 --> 00:56:34.170
they don't give cookies enough. They don't praise

00:56:34.170 --> 00:56:36.070
enough. And I'm always on them for that. And

00:56:36.070 --> 00:56:40.250
I keep saying, if you went to work and your boss

00:56:40.250 --> 00:56:42.510
never once told you you were doing a good job,

00:56:42.630 --> 00:56:44.869
never gave you any encouragement, and maybe gave

00:56:44.869 --> 00:56:46.550
you your paycheck at the end of a month, how

00:56:46.550 --> 00:56:47.949
would you feel about that? Would you enjoy their

00:56:47.949 --> 00:56:49.550
jobs? They're like, no, I would hate that. I'm

00:56:49.550 --> 00:56:50.969
like, well, why are you doing that to your dog?

00:56:51.329 --> 00:56:54.139
And then they're like. Oh, like it doesn't occur

00:56:54.139 --> 00:56:56.280
to them to think about the dog's point of view

00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:57.960
in the same, you know, to relate that to how

00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.519
they would feel. And I don't know why. I don't

00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:02.920
know why it doesn't occur to them, but I had

00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:05.500
this conversation with them all the time. That's

00:57:05.500 --> 00:57:07.679
why I thought this was so interesting because

00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:11.000
it's what a lot of things you're talking about

00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:15.420
that you teach to humans, right? Like it's the

00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:20.619
same thing for the dogs. Right. So why? I do

00:57:20.619 --> 00:57:24.340
find that fascinating as well. Like when people

00:57:24.340 --> 00:57:30.239
get annoyed when their dog doesn't want to stay

00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:32.300
there and look at them for the moving stand,

00:57:32.659 --> 00:57:38.860
I'm like, how would you feel if I told you, brought

00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:42.699
you out in the middle of like... the town and

00:57:42.699 --> 00:57:46.900
said stand there don't move and a complete stranger

00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:52.940
walked up to you and started touching you that's

00:57:52.940 --> 00:57:57.280
a really interesting visual but that is exactly

00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:02.679
what we're asking them to do yeah like it's disgusting

00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:08.920
like get off me uncomfortable Oh, it's so uncomfortable.

00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:11.860
And then they're like, that's like the thing.

00:58:11.880 --> 00:58:14.420
I think people, there's like a lack of people

00:58:14.420 --> 00:58:17.880
really like trying to figure out how their dog

00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:20.719
feels in certain moments and situations. Like

00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:25.000
they just, I don't know, like if it was a person

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:27.059
they were doing that with, they would probably

00:58:27.059 --> 00:58:30.440
more be more conscientious of how they felt.

00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:34.239
Right. They might. I don't think enough people

00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:36.320
put themselves in other people's shoes, to be

00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:43.519
honest. Agreed. It's just like lack of empathy.

00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:47.139
Humanity and empathy. Human race. I think people

00:58:47.139 --> 00:58:49.559
just by nature are very self -centered, so it's

00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:52.019
hard for them to do that. If I brought Petra

00:58:52.019 --> 00:58:54.980
out in the middle of a crowd and said, all right,

00:58:54.980 --> 00:58:57.159
everyone pay attention. We're going to do this

00:58:57.159 --> 00:59:00.639
thing. Like, I would be conscientious of Petra's

00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:04.900
feelings. Like, I don't want her to be uncomfortable.

00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:08.019
This is probably uncomfortable for her. So I'm

00:59:08.019 --> 00:59:10.679
going to, you know, be, like, conscientious of

00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:12.599
that. But people don't do that with their dogs.

00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:16.059
That's what I'm saying. I wonder if it's because

00:59:16.059 --> 00:59:20.199
the dogs can't say or, well, first of all, they

00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:23.260
can't read their, right? Like, maybe they could.

00:59:23.539 --> 00:59:26.039
Like, aren't you right? I kind of agree within

00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:28.500
that. Like sometimes people look uncomfortable

00:59:28.500 --> 00:59:33.239
and other people don't even pick up on it. Or

00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:36.079
they don't care. I don't know. I don't know.

00:59:36.099 --> 00:59:37.699
Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. If they don't

00:59:37.699 --> 00:59:40.659
notice or don't care, but. I don't know. I think

00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:42.460
there's something to be said about that, though,

00:59:42.539 --> 00:59:44.500
for sure. But for sure with dogs, though. I care

00:59:44.500 --> 00:59:47.639
about my dog's feelings. Like I care about their

00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:51.400
state of mind. I care too much. So I think that's

00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:54.460
a thing. But I also think people aren't good

00:59:54.460 --> 00:59:56.340
at reading their dogs. I know you guys have talked

00:59:56.340 --> 00:59:59.920
about that before. Yeah, agree. I was laughing

00:59:59.920 --> 01:00:04.139
because one of the first podcasts of you guys

01:00:04.139 --> 01:00:05.920
that I actually listened to, you're talking about

01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:08.099
how you just sit and stare at your dogs all day

01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.840
long, like in fascination. And I'm like, doesn't

01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:14.079
everybody do that? But apparently not. So I think

01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:15.880
a lot of people, they can't read their dog at

01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.239
all. And that's part of it. If you can't read

01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:20.239
your dog, you can't have any idea what your dog

01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:22.639
might be feeling. Yeah. Or assess anything at

01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:25.980
all. Yeah. Yeah. We've done that. You know, we've

01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:28.500
gone down that. We talk about that all the time.

01:00:28.579 --> 01:00:30.139
And I said, like my students, I'm like, look

01:00:30.139 --> 01:00:32.119
at your dog. They're like, what? I'm like, look

01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:35.519
at your dog. What? And I'm like, oh, my God.

01:00:35.579 --> 01:00:38.900
Really? Like your dog screaming that feeling,

01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:43.250
like whatever it is. But I also think a big part

01:00:43.250 --> 01:00:46.150
of that in dog training, there is a part where

01:00:46.150 --> 01:00:48.010
they don't read the dog at all, but there is

01:00:48.010 --> 01:00:51.789
a part where they can't because they have cognitive

01:00:51.789 --> 01:00:55.849
overload. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Yes, definitely.

01:00:56.329 --> 01:01:01.070
Like that poor 5 % is like about ready to explode.

01:01:01.429 --> 01:01:06.650
Yeah, it's too much. It's overload. It is. And

01:01:06.650 --> 01:01:08.969
now that you're saying that, it just made me

01:01:08.969 --> 01:01:11.949
wonder. If people are, if you think people are

01:01:11.949 --> 01:01:14.489
better about it when they're by themselves versus

01:01:14.489 --> 01:01:16.489
like in front of the instructor, in front of

01:01:16.489 --> 01:01:20.389
a judge, in front of their classmates. I don't

01:01:20.389 --> 01:01:24.670
know, because I mean, so because I teach online,

01:01:25.170 --> 01:01:28.429
they record it. Yeah, that's what I'm curious,

01:01:28.570 --> 01:01:30.389
because you mostly see them by themselves. Yeah.

01:01:30.690 --> 01:01:33.889
Although, if you're recording something, you

01:01:33.889 --> 01:01:35.590
know that somebody's going to watch it. So it

01:01:35.590 --> 01:01:37.429
does have the same effect as if there's an actual

01:01:37.429 --> 01:01:41.119
person there. Yes, but they're not immediately

01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.719
interacting with that person. So I'm not talking

01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:45.840
to them. But it doesn't matter. So there's a

01:01:45.840 --> 01:01:50.139
whole finding called social facilitation. And

01:01:50.139 --> 01:01:52.000
what that refers to is if you're doing something

01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.420
that's really easy for you and there's someone

01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:56.300
else around, even if they're not really watching

01:01:56.300 --> 01:02:00.150
you. your performance goes up and the kind of

01:02:00.150 --> 01:02:02.309
mirror of that social impairment that if it's

01:02:02.309 --> 01:02:03.809
something challenging for you, your performance

01:02:03.809 --> 01:02:06.010
goes down. Now they started it with just like

01:02:06.010 --> 01:02:08.710
an audience. Then they had someone sitting, they

01:02:08.710 --> 01:02:10.110
did all these variations. There was one with

01:02:10.110 --> 01:02:12.769
someone sitting blindfolded and headphones with

01:02:12.769 --> 01:02:14.889
your back to you. You still get the effect. You

01:02:14.889 --> 01:02:16.849
get the effect. If there's a camera, you get

01:02:16.849 --> 01:02:18.449
the effect. If there's a mirror, like you can

01:02:18.449 --> 01:02:20.530
socially facilitate yourself, which is fascinating.

01:02:21.090 --> 01:02:23.349
So I'm wondering how much of that plays into

01:02:23.349 --> 01:02:25.170
it because we only ever see people when they're

01:02:25.170 --> 01:02:28.269
kind of. aware that someone's watching them and

01:02:28.269 --> 01:02:29.809
I think it gets much worse when they go to a

01:02:29.809 --> 01:02:31.909
show and there's a judge who you know is evaluating

01:02:31.909 --> 01:02:36.289
you so I don't know it just kind of popped in

01:02:36.289 --> 01:02:39.829
my head when you're talking so then how do you

01:02:39.829 --> 01:02:41.969
overcome that though well I mean because you

01:02:41.969 --> 01:02:44.170
have to at some point because first and foremost

01:02:44.170 --> 01:02:46.820
you're going to go in the ring you're Not only

01:02:46.820 --> 01:02:48.659
are you going to be judged, they're spectators.

01:02:48.699 --> 01:02:50.440
I mean, that's always a huge thing, right? The

01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:53.260
whole social pressure. Oh, and everybody thinks

01:02:53.260 --> 01:02:55.639
that always kills me. Everyone's watching. No,

01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:58.039
no, they're really not. I know. They're too worried

01:02:58.039 --> 01:03:00.679
about themselves. They're not watching you. I

01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:02.639
say that all the time, but they're so convinced

01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:04.579
they are. And I'm like, and even if they are,

01:03:04.639 --> 01:03:06.300
they really don't care. They only care about

01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:09.159
themselves. I'm like. And I'll say, when you're

01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:10.500
at a show, are you watching the people in the

01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:12.849
ring? Well, no. Like, well, what makes you think

01:03:12.849 --> 01:03:14.289
that they're watching you? You know, why are

01:03:14.289 --> 01:03:18.269
you so special? But yeah. But to go back to your

01:03:18.269 --> 01:03:19.889
what do you do about it? I think the answer is

01:03:19.889 --> 01:03:21.469
you have to turn the task from something that's

01:03:21.469 --> 01:03:23.230
hard for you into something that's easy for you.

01:03:23.389 --> 01:03:25.949
So it has to be so ingrained and so habitual

01:03:25.949 --> 01:03:28.909
and so something you're super confident in. And

01:03:28.909 --> 01:03:31.289
then you'll get the performance enhancement of

01:03:31.289 --> 01:03:33.829
having an audience as opposed to the impairment

01:03:33.829 --> 01:03:37.570
effect. Well, and that probably speaks to that

01:03:37.570 --> 01:03:40.869
a lot of people are going in the ring way before

01:03:40.869 --> 01:03:46.150
they, never mind the dog, are really ready, right?

01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:48.929
And so then that's going to make the whole thing

01:03:48.929 --> 01:03:52.989
worse because then that's going to increase the

01:03:52.989 --> 01:03:58.329
impairment because they're not. fully prepared

01:03:58.329 --> 01:04:01.510
and confident and yep and then their performance

01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:04.010
won't be anywhere near as good as it is when

01:04:04.010 --> 01:04:06.989
they train alone or even you know just in class

01:04:06.989 --> 01:04:09.489
and then that's discouraging and then the anxiety

01:04:09.489 --> 01:04:11.269
starts to rise and it just kind of cycles to

01:04:11.269 --> 01:04:15.949
where people get really frustrated oh my god

01:04:15.949 --> 01:04:24.730
humans why are humans so complicated we make

01:04:24.730 --> 01:04:31.500
our own lives so hard That we do. And then we

01:04:31.500 --> 01:04:34.039
choose to go and compete and like make it worse

01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.360
because it magnifies everything, right? Like

01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:39.420
it magnifies all your insecurities, all your

01:04:39.420 --> 01:04:47.539
self -doubt. Oh my God, we're so crazy. But when

01:04:47.539 --> 01:04:52.119
it goes well, it feels so good. It does. But

01:04:52.119 --> 01:04:55.159
these poor animals, like that they have to put

01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:59.280
up with all this craziness. I do think that frequently.

01:04:59.539 --> 01:05:01.159
I look at my dogs. I'm like, you put out guys

01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:04.079
put up with so much nonsense from us. It's just

01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:07.440
amazing. Yeah. And they're like, they, they're

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:10.900
fine with it. You know, they're just like, okay,

01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:13.900
I still love you. You mucked that up completely,

01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:16.579
but it's okay. Unless you're Zayna. Then she

01:05:16.579 --> 01:05:24.840
tells you off. You're an idiot. All right. This

01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:27.619
was really good. There's so much to unpack here

01:05:27.619 --> 01:05:30.780
and so much to think about. So good. So good.

01:05:31.500 --> 01:05:34.559
This was fun. I wasn't sure going in because

01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:37.039
I'm like, OK, but it was actually really fun.

01:05:37.300 --> 01:05:39.739
So thank you for having me. It wasn't going to

01:05:39.739 --> 01:05:43.480
be bad. All we do is we just BS about dogs. And

01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:47.380
I'm always trying to think, right, like how as

01:05:47.380 --> 01:05:53.630
as a dog trainer and as a human teacher. Right.

01:05:53.710 --> 01:05:57.550
Like, obviously, like Lori has said this many

01:05:57.550 --> 01:06:00.250
times, like we want and you're the same. We want

01:06:00.250 --> 01:06:04.210
our students to do well. Right. Like we care.

01:06:04.610 --> 01:06:10.550
So. How can I explain it better and how can I

01:06:10.550 --> 01:06:13.690
explain things better to my dog? Right. And how

01:06:13.690 --> 01:06:17.369
can I explain things better to my students and

01:06:17.369 --> 01:06:23.239
how can I be a better trainer? So. And learning

01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:25.840
theory and psychology and all that, like it,

01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:29.320
it plays a big role. And I think if we have a

01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:34.579
better understanding, like when you said that

01:06:34.579 --> 01:06:37.679
to me that day about the confirmation bias, I

01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:41.440
literally have mentioned that exact thing to

01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:48.239
my students and they go, oh, yeah, I'm doing

01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:52.690
that. So like that's super helpful. Right. Like

01:06:52.690 --> 01:06:55.730
for them to recognize that that's what they're

01:06:55.730 --> 01:06:58.969
doing and that that's hindering them. And then

01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:01.289
once they have that awareness, they can change

01:07:01.289 --> 01:07:06.309
it. And I'm always looking at the learning theory

01:07:06.309 --> 01:07:09.110
and like, how can I apply it to my dog training

01:07:09.110 --> 01:07:11.230
and how can I be a better dog trainer? And I

01:07:11.230 --> 01:07:14.849
think the more people understand, the better

01:07:14.849 --> 01:07:18.590
it helps them personally and it helps their dogs.

01:07:20.050 --> 01:07:26.869
Yeah. Yeah. Dream. It's awesome. Yeah. Thank

01:07:26.869 --> 01:07:29.309
you. Thank you for letting me force you to come

01:07:29.309 --> 01:07:34.809
on. It was fun. I was happy to do it. Now that

01:07:34.809 --> 01:07:41.190
it's done. That was awesome. All right. Thanks

01:07:41.190 --> 01:07:45.389
everybody. Happy training. Bye. Bye.