Hi everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. Today I am super excited because, and
this is kind of funny actually, because I have
Annette as a guest and she's one of my training
partners. So you would be like, well, dude, you
see her all the time. Well, yes, I do. However,
I still am dying to pick her brain and I've been.
Holding off on certain things because I wanted
to kind of wait for this episode. And how did
this start? Well, I knew Annette was a professor
at NYU. And that's about all I knew that she
did there for a while. And then one day we're
training. This happened a couple times. And something
happens with one of the dogs. And I'm like, oh,
that's so interesting. All right. I'll tell this
one story because I do think this is fascinating.
So our friend's dog mouths the dumbbell really
bad. Right. And doesn't want to give it up and
the glove, but whatever. And it's got a long
history and, you know, tried everything under
the sun. So so we're like, all right, well, I
don't know. We'll ponder it. We don't really
have a solution. But oh, by the way. When your
dog picks up the dumbbell, it does like this
big loopy turn thing before it comes back. And
oh, it's not even thinking about front till it
lands in front of you. So let's address those
two things. How about when you picked up the
dumbbell, we're like, come, like stop parading
around, get back here. And hey, front, like think
about fronting. So she's... Doing that, I don't
know, for a few weeks or whatever. And all of
a sudden we're standing there and I'm like, I
go, I look at Annette and I'm like, um, he's
not mouthing the dumbbell. How come he's not
mouthing the dumbbell? And we're like, I think
it's because he's thinking about coming and fronting.
And therefore he doesn't have until like, he's
not thinking about chewing or holding onto it.
So like it fixed it like kind of by accident.
Right. And then Annette spouts off a psychology
theory and explains it in such an excellent way.
I'm like, oh, that's such a good way to explain
that. And so that happened a couple of times.
And all of a sudden I come to find out, well,
Annette will explain what she actually teaches
at NYU. And then I'm like, why? not using more
of what you teach in our dog training. So, Lynette,
do you want to tell everybody what you actually
do? Okay. So, sure. I teach in a master's program
in organizational psychology. And organizational
psychology is basically the psychology of people
in the workplace. So, it covers a wide variety
of behaviors, but the two things I specialize
in and the one that's probably most relevant
here is work motivation. And then I also teach
about leadership. So, yeah. So, you know, there's
a lot of overlap between motivation of people
at work and of dogs and of all of it. So, yeah.
And you train dogs. So tell us about your dog
training history as well, because you also teach
training classes and you also compete. Yeah.
So they actually both things started about the
same time because I defended my dissertation.
I got my doctorate from Columbia and picked up
my very first puppy in the same week. We also
closed on a house. It was a pretty big week.
So that was back in 1996. So me being me and
kind of always being afraid of the unknown and
wanting the illusion of control, I researched
everything before we did that. So I knew I wanted
a well -behaved pet. So we signed her up even
before we had her for pet training classes at
Princeton Dog Training Club with Petra. I know
you remember Elsie Walker. She was teaching them
then. And I kind of. My husband was actually
the one who started, and I kind of watched him
for a while and said, I can do better. And I
took over. Excuse me. Push him aside. I kind
of, you know, I was like, well, let me try this.
And then, yeah, so then I kind of got into it.
Elsie and, you know, they talked me into doing
the competition classes with Kathy, and I kind
of never looked back. So she was my first dog
I ever had. She was a Black Lab. I'd always wanted
a Black Lab. And she got her UD. and six UDX
legs, and I had to retire her because she wasn't
sound. And then when she was three, we got another
dog from the same breeder, and he also got a
UD. Probably could have done better if I'd known
more about what I was doing. And he was a really
nice boy, and when he was 10, we bred him a couple
times, kept one of the puppies, and she was my
first otch dog. Then we bred her and ended up
keeping both of the surviving puppies. That was
not the original plan. They were my next otch
dogs. One of them, Cookie, went on to otch for
UDX 12 and made top 20 at the NOC. And they just
retired. And now I've got a young dog who I'm
really excited about. And you're doing Rally
now. Yeah, I'm doing Rally with the older girls
who are semi -retired just for something to do
with them. They're enjoying it. They're having
a blast. Cookie's doing hunt tests with my husband.
So I am letting him train dogs again. Yeah. And
a few years ago, Staten Island Dog Training Club
reached out to me and asked if I would teach
competition classes. And I hadn't really thought
about it, but I was like, you know, I've been
teaching for years. I've been training for years.
Yeah, why not give it a try? And I've been enjoying
that quite a bit. And then a year or so ago,
I applied to be a judge because Kathy Walker
pushed me. And so I'm provisional for novice,
hoping to move up to open soon. So, yeah, that's
my dog life. Fantastic. So back to my story about
the retrieve and the hold. So when I said that,
what did you say? God, I don't even remember.
You named the theory, that theory where they
can only think about one thing at a time. Oh,
yeah. It's not a specific theory. It's just a
concept. are, and I assume dogs as well, have
what we call limited attentional resources. Our
brains can only be processing so much at once.
And when he was processing, I have to front,
I kind of left not enough room for anything else.
Right. So I thought that was super interesting
because that was just a really succinct and clear
way to explain What I would have explained, because
I've been like, oh, that's so interesting. And
I would have gone into this long story because
I'm not good at breaking things down like that.
And I also think that's a good thing just for
us to understand because it works for humans
as well as for dogs, right? Oh, 100%. only process
so much at a time so I'm working on this a lot
with my human students right now because they
tend to not be good at mastering steps before
they move on to the next steps and dog training
is so complicated that then their brain like
explodes and things are a mess So I feel like
they should master a step first, like, for example,
mark, praise, then cookie. So that it gives them
more mental space then to then process other
things. Would that kind of be in line with that?
concept. Absolutely. Because I was actually reading
the other day that they estimate that, excuse
me, about 95 % of our cognitive processing is
at the unconscious or subconscious level. And
when we form habits, which is what you're kind
of talking about, getting so good at like, I
mean, I know you don't think really hard about
marking and rewarding. It's just natural to you,
right? So it becomes a habit, which means it's
happening at the unconscious or the subconscious
level. And that frees up more of your conscious
processing, which is the part that's really limited.
So that's kind of what sounds to me like what
you're saying you want your students to be able
to do. Correct. Wow. Only 5 % available. No wonder
we're a mess. Now, I don't know how true that
stat is, but it's widely shared in the field.
So somebody's figured that out somehow. Wow.
So I wonder if that's the same for dogs, right?
And so there should be something to be said then.
that we should make as many things a habit, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Huh. So then, hmm. So then
what about, where would that fall in then though
with proofing? Well, it would be so proofing
makes the habit stronger. Well, so I was thinking
about this the other day. When you're learning
things, you learn better. if you have to interact
with the material in some way. So like if you
just read a paragraph over and over, that's not
going to stick in your head as well as if you
have to then translate in your own words to explain
it to someone else, because at that point you're
making deeper connections and you're encoding
it at a lower, at a deeper level. So I was thinking
about that in the terms of the dogs and the proofing.
And I think if they have to solve the problem
by like, Because proofing presents a problem,
right? A conundrum for them. Do I interact with
that or do I do my job? And I think if they have
to solve the problem, they're interacting with
kind of what it takes to do the job, the kind
of material for them in a deeper way. And it
makes it stronger behavior for them, a stronger
understanding of it anyway. Yeah, that's interesting
because it's kind of like this book I started
to read. Don't ask me the name because I don't
remember. I just started reading it. But it does
say that like exactly what you said, that the
rote memorization, that that's what people always,
which would be drilling, right? Having our dog
do it over and over and over and over. And I'm
like, oh my God, why did you just do 30 reps?
Like if I have to, I say that constantly, right?
But that's like instinct. It's like, it's, and
it says that even professional athletes, like
they'll do that. even when presented with the
data, it's like this weird instinctual thing
that people will go and do that. And that, that
is not the most, the best way to learn the material.
Um, so that really, and what's so interesting
about that is kind of by accident, like we've
done this, I don't know if you want to call an
experiment because so, um, and that has a young
dog that, um, Since she was a baby baby, she's
been training her under, I would say, challenging
conditions. Yeah, definitely. I just kind of
threw her in with the big dogs. Yeah, so whatever
we set up for the big dogs, then when it's puppy's
turn, she just gets trained. Well, we don't like
overwhelm her, but she gets exposed right from
day one to those hard things. And I started doing
that with some of my students, young dogs as
well. And it's been, to say astounding, I would
say would be an understatement. Like, don't you
agree? I'm amazed by what she can do and what
she understands. You know, like just yesterday
when we were doing the go outs to the back of
Carl's building, you know, no gates, no stanchions,
no nothing. And she just ran straight. And I
was like, that would have taken my older dogs
years and years to master that. And she just
understood it. And it was outside in a section
we've never trained her there before. Same with
when we did the articles. We set the dogs up
in the driveway. The articles were in the grass.
The grass was high. Couldn't even really see
the articles because Est couldn't. He ran out.
He's like, I don't know where I'm going. And
she was just like, like a rock, like zero, like
there was just zero confusion. Like it was like
she'd done it a hundred times before. The dog's
like, how old is she? 20 months? 18 months. Jesus
Christ. And I think it's because of that. Look,
learning theory, like, cause we trained her that
way. I really do in large part. I mean, sure.
There's something to be said for genetics and,
you know, obviously you're an experienced trainer
at this point, but still it's pretty astounding.
And I'm seeing it with some of my other students'
dogs as well. So. Definitely something to be
said for drilling not being the most efficient
thing. People, stop drilling. Yeah, I mean, I
really feel with her that because she's had to
do the exercises in so many different contexts
and so many different surroundings that she really
understands what the meat of the exercise is.
She doesn't have all that. It's not like I only
do this when it looks like this. She's like,
I do this no matter what. Which I think that
that bodes a problem for a lot of dogs because
that's how most people introduce all the exercises
to new puppies and green dogs is that, you know,
they make everything sterile. They make everything
easy. And that's the picture that the dog learns
that piece in. And then when you start to add
the quote unquote proofs. then the picture changes
and that like yeah I think that's there's something
huge to be said about that big time that's the
way I did it and that's the way I said to do
oh no the dog has to learn it well first now
I'm like oh for goodness sakes like I've been
doing this all wrong yeah and then like I'm sure
there's been times where she's gotten stuck or
confused right and now like And then you just
help her, right? And then life goes on. Exactly.
Well, we helped her, but like not a lot, right?
What we've also done, and I'm having my students,
it's absolutely fascinating to watch, where the
first thing we do is give them a chance to figure
it out themselves. And that's, I think, in that
what you described, right? Where the dog is...
You're giving the dog the opportunity to say,
let me regurgitate the material and see if I
can, if I understand it. Like versus the second
the dog struggles, we didn't run in and help
her immediately. We just kind of let her muck
it up a little bit and figure it out. Right?
Wouldn't you say? Yeah, exactly. I mean, if she
got really, but she didn't really do that very
often, get really stressed about it. She just
keeps trying. And you say, yeah, yeah, you're
fine. Well, because we taught her from the beginning,
right, that we, you kind of empowered her and
we're like, you can figure this out. And then
the dog starts to go, oh, I can solve this, this
puzzle myself. Right. Like, I don't. I don't
need you. I have this video. It's so fascinating.
It's this, um, my student's puppy. It was like,
I want to say it could not have been more than
10 or 12 weeks old. She took it to her adult
dogs class. So she's outside the ring. The puppy
was running to the mat, right? Maybe it was like,
I don't know, 10, 15 feet in front of her. So
puppy runs to the mat, runs back, starts to run
to the mat, gets distracted, wanders away. right
she does nothing which is very not not typical
right we would intervene and we're like ah that
the puppy's leaving puppy wanders away because
it just got distracted it's a puppy and then
she leaves it be and then all of a sudden the
puppy goes snaps his head around and goes wait
i'm supposed to be going to the mat looks at
the mat runs to the mat sits on the mat And then
the next rep runs straight to the mat perfectly.
And that's like very similar to what Annette's
dog Leah does, right? Like she gets stuck and
then she just puzzles it out. And then on the
next rep, she does it perfect. And I think we're
just teaching the dog. To also be resilient.
Is there some something about resilience with
like learning theory and motivation and all that?
There is. There is. That's not something I'm
super familiar with. I do know there is some
stuff in resilience. But I was thinking when
you were talking about I was thinking about in
terms of what we call needs theories that talk
about what you want out of life that that then
drives your goals. And the prominent one for
people is that we have needs for competence,
relatedness, and autonomy. And I think dogs do
too. And so by solving problems, it lets them
feel a sense of, I can do this. I am competent.
I can do things. And that reduces anxiety. And
also autonomy. I get to make my own choices about
some things. That also reduces anxiety. So I
think that kind of feeds into the resilience
piece. I think that's so important what you just
said about it reducing anxiety, like super important
because I think that when we have this tendency
to micromanage, guilty, and over -reinforce and
micromanage that we create learned helplessness.
And that is not a comfortable feeling. for a
human or a dog. And the original studies on learned
helplessness were done with dogs, so we know
it definitely happens to them. Oh, really? Yep.
And so was that where they just reinforced them
too much or were they just helped them too much?
Well, they didn't do either. So learned helplessness,
the way they did the studies, they originally
put dogs in these cages with... And then had
a low -level electric shock. Now, in some of
the cages, they could jump out. And that's what
most normal, healthy dogs do. They jump out.
This is uncomfortable. I'm leaving. But they
also put some of them in cages where they couldn't
jump out. And eventually, the dogs just kind
of gave up and took it. They just lay there no
matter what was going on. And then when they
moved them to a cage where they could have jumped
out, they didn't try. Because they learned that
there's nothing I can do to help myself in this
situation. And even if they saw another dog jump
out, they still didn't try because they've just
given up. They just said, I can't, I have no
power. There's nothing I can do. So that's where
the original study was. And then it got, they
started doing it with people and aversive noises.
And then it became part of the whole literature
on depression and anxiety. But it started with
dogs in cages. Wow. And interestingly, fun fact
that has nothing to do with anything, the guy
who did all that literature, he spent the rest
of his career studying happiness. So there you
go. Well, probably because he was so depressed.
Most likely, yeah. Oh my gosh. Electrocuting
dogs. Because I found that out like, you know,
a few years ago that, oh, that's what he did
after. I was like, oh, that's kind of funny.
So anyway, fun fact. That is very funny. So what
about motivation, right? Like, because I think
that's really important. For humans, so there's
extrinsic and intrinsic, right? Well, you could
describe it better than I could. So could you
describe extrinsic and intrinsic motivation in
humans? And then maybe see if there's anything
in there we could apply to dogs. Sure. And I
think there absolutely does apply to dogs. So
extrinsic motivation is when you're motivated
by something that comes. externally to you. So
it could be money. It could be praise. It could
be anything that's kind of handed to you by someone
else or by the environment. Intrinsic motivation
comes from feelings, internal feelings. So a
sense of accomplishment, achievement, enjoyment.
That's the reinforcer for you is the internally
generated feelings. You know, obviously, mostly
when we train dogs, we work with extrinsic motivators.
We work with toys. We work with food. But I think
when you start, like I know, Patri, you do a
lot of this with the games and the game becomes
fun for the dog. That's kind of changing it into
more of an intrinsic motivator. They're doing
it because it's fun. So that's intrinsic. So
I think dogs absolutely can be intrinsically
motivated. So do they, in human literature, do
they feel like... Is one more powerful than the
other or is it variable? Well, intrinsic is generally
thought to be much better. A, because it is a
little more powerful, you get a little bit more
performance. It also, because it can be one of
the challenges and, you know, from reinforcement
theory, the reinforcer has to be delivered. The
timing is important, right? So extrinsically,
when you're, you know, someone works really hard
on a project and then it takes three months for
payroll to process their bonus. that kind of
really takes away the link between the behavior
and the reward. But intrinsically, because you're
administering it yourself, it happens almost
immediately. So it's very powerful that way as
well. And what's one interesting thing, and it
comes from that self -determination theory that
I mentioned earlier, is that if you start giving
people extrinsic rewards for something that was
otherwise intrinsically motivating, it can take
away the intrinsic motivation. It takes away
the pleasure. So you have to be kind of careful
in humans anyway of when and how you administer
extrinsic rewards. Because what it does, and
it doesn't always, but it tends to have the person
kind of receives it or perceives it. If they
start thinking that, if it starts feeling controlling,
like I'm doing this for this and you're controlling
my behavior, that takes away the enjoyment. So
because it kind of gives you another reason for
why you're doing it. So I don't know how much
that applies to dogs, but it's definitely, it's
kind of an interesting. you know, interaction
between the two types of reinforcers. So what
if, so if my dog solves the problem, right. And
feels good about solving the problem. And then
we're like, wow, good job. Maybe we shouldn't
also be giving them a cookie or a toy. Right.
Or at least randomly do it so it doesn't feel
as connected and as manipulative. Although I
don't know how much dogs think that way because
we think that way. But they might just feel like,
oh, cookie, yay. You know, like I don't know
if they can't read as much into it. But yeah,
when I work with my dogs, and I was telling my
students this the other day, I try, the praise
is the big thing. Yeah, you're awesome. That's
wonderful. Oh, and here, I'll slip you a cookie.
The focus from... And it's not necessarily on
purpose. It just, it kind of what that does is
it builds that the praise is the thing they're
really responding to. Now they like the praise
because it's always led to cookies, but eventually
they like the praise just because they like the
praise. It now has good feelings associated with
it. Yeah, that's another thing that I found super
interesting, which, and I had asked you about
this after I realized what you actually did for
a living, what you actually taught. I was like,
because you, do not give a high rate of reinforcement
in comparison to what the average competition
trainer gives, I guess I would say, right? So
you give on the lower end of reinforcement. And
I asked you, are you doing that for a reason,
like based on some theory? And you're kind of
like, yeah, no, that's just what I do. Yeah,
exactly. But now that we were talking about it,
though, I do actually feel like it does, even
if that's not why you did it, that the lower
rate of reinforcement kind of does track with
what we've been talking about. With the dog getting...
intrinsic reinforcement from solving so the dogs
you know a we're letting the dog solve the problem
right we're saying yep you're a big boy or girl
i'm not gonna micromanage you i'm gonna give
you autonomy here you go solve that problem and
the dog solves the problem we're like wow look
at you you solve the problem dog's like yeah
i did didn't i and that feels good and building
on that like consistently and so and then on
top of that giving a lower rate of reinforcement
and the dog your dog's perfectly fine with that
yeah i mean like i said i don't think it was
a conscious strategy my part but remember 95
is unconscious so it may have right informed
by that um it's more for me i just kind of watch
them if they're super happy and they did the
thing and they're happy and i praise them they're
happy with that i don't feel the need to pile
on i'm like okay they're happy they're motivated
yay let's keep you know so i guess if i look
and they don't look like that was all that fun
and it's not that thrilling i feel like okay
i need to motivate them more so i might up the
reinforcement a little bit yeah but as long as
they're they seem motivated i don't I don't worry
about it too much. Right. Why is your dog motivated
with a lower rate of reinforcement? Right. That
that would be the question. Is it are we giving
too much reinforcement because we're using the
reinforcer as a bribe? Yeah, it should never
be as a bribe. Lori, do you see where I'm going
with this? What I'm trying to puzzle out? Well,
I also wonder how much of it goes back to that
thing I mentioned where too much extrinsic reinforcement.
kills intrinsic motivation for humans. And I
wonder if it does that for people, too, because
sometimes I watch people and I feel like they're
so hooked on the cookie and they turn the cookie
into the big focus. The dog doesn't even notice
that what it's doing is fun. Yeah, I agree. I
agree. I think that definitely can can develop
for sure. So it's kind of the same thing in humans
is, you know, your boss constantly hammering
on, we're paying you to do this, we're paying
you to do this. And then you kind of think, well,
this must not be any fun. So you don't even find
the joy in what you're doing. Right. Yeah, that's
so interesting. Yeah. And I think that's a huge,
huge problem, right? Is that. I think that. And
we talked about this briefly in our reinforcement
episode, just the fact that humans are uncomfortable
with struggle, whether they're uncomfortable
with human struggling or not. They're very uncomfortable
with the dogs struggling. And when I say struggle,
I'm not saying your dog standing there like stress
to the gills and you're just like, well, figure
it out, dude. I'm talking about the dog, you
know. struggling a little bit to solve a problem
and then the dog solves the problem which is
no different than you know things we struggle
with when we're learning new footwork or learning
how to train a dog or making mistakes training
our dogs or you know whatever thing anything
that we learn there's inherent struggle and learning
I think part of that comes from people not wanting
to feel like they don't have control. And if
you're staying there watching your dog, letting
your dog puzzle it out, you're ceding control
to the dog. And I think that makes some people
uncomfortable. They kind of want to manage everything.
They want to be the one in charge. Because we're
control freaks, us dog trainers. Yeah, we all
are. Yeah, why are we? Why are humans control
freaks? Well, I don't know if all humans are
control freaks, but I think dog trainers absolutely
are. dog trainers absolutely are because we want
the outcome to be the outcome we want it to be
a certain way and i think that goes back to like
the like giving all the cookies and then somehow
diluting that intrinsic reinforcer because we
because i think we want like like it was so it
was so cool when you were like annette when you
said i sort of just watched them And I'm like,
they seem pretty happy and motivated just by
me telling them that was freaking a great job
you just did. So I don't give them a cookie.
But I think many of us are like, but I need to
make sure they really love, like, and know that
I'm happy. So here's 50 cookies. Like, I think
that we go to that place so quickly. not put
that pause on like, just to kind of be like,
put that, you know, that genuine, it's gotta
be genuine. Like, wow, that was so good, buddy.
Holy crap. And watching your dog, cause I can
see it. Like even with the puppy now, like, I'm
like, wow. And he's like, yeah, I did. Right.
I did do it. And like, I still like, I do that.
And then I still like, here's your fucking ball.
Cause this is your end all reinforcer. Like when
I should maybe not do that. You know what I mean?
Like, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like, because
I need you to know really how proud I am, but
I kind of just took away that piece, you know?
That's interesting. I don't know if this is in
any way related, but, um, confirmation bias,
right? That's something and that and I have talked
about in training. And the way it came up is
like some of us like I'm keyed in. I have a confirmation
bias towards errors, right? Like towards things
that are wrong. I shouldn't even say wrong. So
it goes all the way back to I'm a physical therapist.
My eye has been developed and my hands towards
finding the piece that's missing, right? And
then how do I put that piece back in there? So
if someone's moving incorrectly. I need to notice
that. Where is that coming from? What piece is
missing? How do I put that back in there? Then
I do physical therapy on dogs. They can't even
tell me. So I really need to have good eyes and
hands. Right. And I really need to be able to
see the slightest little thing what's off and
or feel it and see it. Those are my only two
options and fix it. Right. So like I'm that weirdo
that like if I see somebody out in a store limping.
you're not supposed to look right. I'm staring
because I'm like, instinctively, I'm like, I
must solve this problem. And then once I go,
oh, it's their hip and then I can look away.
I'm like, oh my God, my friends will be like,
stop doing that. I'm like, sorry, I can't help
it. Right. And then I teach. So what is my job?
To see everything you're doing wrong and tell
you how to do it right. So. When I'm working
my dog, the second something is like slightly
off, I know it's like to me, it's like a giant
alarm bells are going off in my head, like that's,
you know. So then I have I watch students and
their dog blatantly does something wrong. They
completely ignore it. The dog finishes and they're
like, wow. And they're reinforcing the dog. And
I'm like, holy shit. And then I go, did you just
see that your dog looked away like over there?
No, it looked away. And so I look at a nut and
I go, oh, my God. Like, why does this happen?
And you are like, it's confirmation bias, but
in the other direction. Right. To where they
only see. What the dog they don't want to see.
What what am I saying? And that helped me out.
They only saw what the dog did right. They didn't
notice. So they I distinctly remember when we
had this conversation and what we were watching.
The dog picked up the glove and the dog brought
the glove back. So that was the part that got
focused on and got praise. The fact the dog picked
up the glove, looked all around and did a big
circle on the way back. Which you were like,
how could you not see that? That didn't even
get noticed because it wasn't what they were
looking for. They were looking for, is my dog
retrieving the glob? They weren't looking for
all the different pieces of what it should look
like. So should we be telling our students to
have the opposite confirmation bias? Look for
all the wrong. Do you know what I'm saying? I
think it comes back down to kind of basic goal
setting. goals that are specific are going to
drive behavior more. So general goal, like the
dog retrieves the glove. Yeah, sure. That tells
you, did the dog retrieve the glove? But it's
kind of, there are a lot of different ways to
retrieve a glove. Some of them are going to get
you a higher score than others. So if you have
a specific goal of my dog goes straight to the
glove, picks it up, turns around without looking
at anything else, trots or runs back, the more
specific you get, the more it helps you look
for. I think some people would be like, I'm just
fucking happy it got the glove, you know? Yeah.
And a lot of people are. Yeah. Which is fine,
except this person's not. And that's why I'm
pulling my hair out. And this is not exclusive
to this person. This is a very common student
scenario. Right. Yeah. Part of it in the case,
especially if someone and the person you're talking
about is not as experienced, they don't even
know what to look for. They don't really have
a good sense of the criteria of what a good retrieve
looks like. And I think that's where you have
to start with. These are the pieces you should
be looking for. But there I think I think, though,
there are students who should, quote unquote,
know the criteria of what they're. goal is but
then you can do it patron doesn't yell at them
what you do not notice that because i've done
that and and they'll do they'll do the thing
and the dog executes it and there's some stuff
that didn't go well or you know the criteria
wasn't met and they let the dog do the entire
thing and then they reward the dog and i always
say this is what i say to them did you like that
And then they look at me and it's almost like
they have to then they all of a sudden at that
moment when I ask them, they have to take a second.
They go, no, I didn't. And I say, well, then
why did you reward it? And they say, I don't
know. Like, they don't know. Like, I think in
the moment they I don't know. Like, that's like,
yeah. Why did you pay him for that? He totally
did this, that, or the other thing. And they're
like, I don't know. But it's almost like they
didn't see it. They didn't see all the stuff
I saw. Yeah. In the moment. In the moment. Like,
if they were watching somebody else, they'd probably
be going, oh, that was, ugh. But in their moment
of their dog, like, they didn't see it until
I had to say, did you like that? And then they
were like, hmm. No, I really didn't. It was it's
so interesting to me. So is that confirmation
bias because it's their own dog and they don't
want to see it? Or is that like cognitive overload
because there's like so much stuff in their brain
can't process it all? Or is it does that go back
to goal setting that like you don't have a clear
plan before you even. Ask the dog to do the exercise.
Right. I mean, all of that overlaps, of course.
I think for a lot of people, it goes back to
not having a clear picture of what you're looking
for. Because if you can say to someone, let's
say the glove exercise, you're going to do this.
And what you're looking for is, do they look
around when they pick up the glove? That'll focus
them usually to the point where they're like,
OK, I'm looking at that. That's my criteria that
I'm looking at. When they're trying to look at
the whole big picture, they lose the details.
They lose the details, I think, and they lose
confidence in. the ability to make that decision
in the moment. You know what I mean? Oh, so that's
another great point. So, and so we should be
telling our students to focus on like that specific
thing, which is the weakness or the piece of
the exercise, which maybe the dog struggles with.
So don't focus on the rest, focus on that one
thing. Yep. Yeah. Or prioritize that in any event.
Right. What can you tell us about goal setting?
Because I think people are like planning and
goal setting. I think people are so weak in that
area. Like, you know, when when any of the three
of us train together, it's like we just have
this like internal thing where we're like, oh,
yeah, I got to do this for this dog, this for
that dog, whatever. But that is kind of rare.
I don't know why. what it is, you know, why we
can do it. But most people, I feel like their
training's very haphazard. It absolutely is.
And I think it goes back to not having real clarity
in what they're looking for and what they want.
So we know from goal -setting theory that for
a goal to be motivating and effectively drive
behavior, it needs to be, as I said, specific.
It should also be challenging. So achievable,
but a little bit of a push in the industry. They
call them stretch goals. But I think this dumping
specific enough is kind of hard because I'll
say to students, you know, well, what's your
goal for this trial? And they'll go, I want to
do well. And so what does that mean? I don't
know. I want to qualify. And like, well, qualifying
could be a 170 up to a 200. That's kind of two
very different things. Which are you looking
at? What do you know? And. Sometimes when it
comes down to it, when I actually get in the
nitty gritty with talking to him, it's really
they just don't want to make a fool out of themselves.
And all of those drive completely different behaviors.
If you're going for 170, you're going to train
very differently than if you're going for 200.
If your whole goal is not to embarrass yourself,
that's a whole different set of behaviors. So
I think people really need to kind of think very
clearly about exactly what they want. What does
it look like? What will it look like when I've
achieved that? How will I know? Because that's
the piece that's missing a lot of the time. And
it has to be like the goals really shouldn't
be extrinsic. Like that's very common. Right.
And all like competition coaches, et cetera,
mental management will tell you the same thing.
Like it shouldn't be I'm going to cue or get
a score or a placement because I think we talked
about this yesterday or the other day. Yeah,
we did. Because that doesn't it's not completely
under your control. Correct. Like it's totally
not in our control. So like what is in your control?
Like I stayed focused or I stayed connected to
my dog or I executed my footwork. Exactly. It
should really be about your handling because
you can't even control what your dog's going
to do. You can influence it, but you can't control
it. They're living beings. So it should be about
did I bring my A game? Did I do the handling
I wanted to do? And if I did that, then I can
feel good about it and make notes about what
didn't work that I need to fix. But I don't think
people define their goals in terms of their own
handling anywhere near as much as they should.
Yeah, I agree. I think it's because people just
put too much on the dog and don't take enough
responsibility for themselves. Do you know what
I'm saying? Oh, 100%. Yeah, I wonder why that
is. I don't know, but I keep telling people this
is a team sport. You're part of the team. Yeah,
but why do they feel like, why do they put so
much on the dog and so little emphasis on themselves,
right? Like, oh yeah, I know, my footwork sucks.
Well, fix it! Like, don't keep saying, well,
my bow turns are wide. How do I get my dog to
do a tighter bow turn? How about you fix your
footwork? And oh, look, your bow turns are fixed.
Yeah. Like, what is it in human nature? Because
is it because then we can blame the dog and then
we don't have to look bad? I'm sure that's part
of it. I mean, if we admit that our... performance
sucks because it's us then we have to admit we're
lousy handlers and that's kind of cognitively
not that's cognitively more difficult than admitting
our dog than believing our dog is at fault so
it's a little bit of cognitive dissonance there
all right people stop with the cognitive dissonance
take responsibility and then yeah like people
need to just like we're Like when we come out
of a trial, like when I leave a trial, I look
at what went well, what didn't, like what do
I need to work on? What do I need to do, you
know, improve upon? What do I need to change?
What do I need to change? I think we need to,
like people, again, they look at that with respect
to the dog. They should reanalyze. So we should
probably have goals for ourselves and goals for
the dog, right? Yes. So then they should be,
you should set goals for yourself, set goals
for your dog's performance. Oh, this is another
thing people don't do. Is there anything about
like the optimal amount of reassessment or assessment,
or I don't know what the proper terminology would
be to make to. To determine whether or not we're
actually making progress on our goals, people
like not do the same thing for three months and
then go, oh, well, this hasn't been working the
whole time. I don't know that there's anything
on optimal amounts because it depends on the
person, the situation. It's so variable. But
yeah, it's definitely part of the process. So
the process starts. You start with a goal. You
exert effort towards that goal. And then at some
point, you should be assessing your progress,
right? We talk about that in terms of discrepancy.
What's the discrepancy between where you are
now and where you want to be? And how you feel
about that discrepancy determines what you do
next. But if you don't... Do that assessment.
If you don't try to measure the discrepancy,
you're not going to change anything and you're
not going to be able to adapt your strategy if
needed. So, yeah, there's not much on like how
often you should do it because it's so variable
and specific to the situation. But it's definitely
an important part of the process for sure. Yeah,
because I feel like I've seen people do that
where they do their. you know kind of quote -unquote
working on something and it's months down the
line and it's like nothing's changed so you should
have changed your plan and then sometimes I'll
be like how long have you been working on this
and they'll be like their guesstimate is so completely
like two weeks I'm like how about three months
oh okay well yeah so maybe so documenting, right?
That's probably a big thing, right? I would imagine.
Well, it helped because, you know, we're, we
call it self -regulating in terms of goals, right?
And at any given time, we're self -regulating
on multiple things at once, which means we're
not giving our full attention to any one of them.
And so, you know, documenting it could help you
kind of be able to go back and be more effective
about what you're doing, just paying attention
to what you're doing. And so when, you know,
when one of the things I always say is when people
try and multitask, they don't do anything well.
You know, you're better off concentrating one
or two things and then finishing those and going
back to the rest of it. And that's the, and the
world we live in now, we have, we are doing thousands
of things all the time at the same time. Exactly.
And those limited attentional resources are getting
divided. Yeah. I think that plays a big part
in it. Big part. Yeah. Oh God, sorry, my brain
just went shooting off in another direction and
I had to rein it in. Don't hold that thought,
limit attentional resource because I want to
go somewhere with the dogs with that. But yes,
like the discipline that we need to exert, right,
that we can't expect our dogs to be focused.
and not be focused ourselves. And I think people
really start to understand that when I make them
and I say make them because I make them. Some
people don't want to train their dog out in the
world. The first thing almost across the board,
one of the first things people will always come
back and tell me is, wow, that was hard. I had
such a hard time staying focused. And I'm like,
well, imagine how your dog must feel. And I think
that just our ability to stay focused on a task
is a skill, right? Like I do things because I
can feel that pull. Like I can feel it just from
social media or from YouTube or different things.
And like when I hike, for example, I... purposefully
do not my phone is on me god forbid in case of
an emergency that's it but I it's off I do not
check it I don't have a watch on my arm and I
watched that like things because like I don't
want to be looking listening checking I and I
can feel how it takes me like a half hour half
an hour until my brain actually stops going 8
000 miles an hour And so what it sounds like
you're describing is you're trying to get into
what we call a flow state. And in a flow state,
you're kind of wrapped up in what you're doing.
And it's just you're not thinking about anything
else. And you're not even thinking that hard
about what you're doing. And we talk about that
happening when you're kind of your goals and
your performance or you're right in sync. You're
working at peak performance and you're. focus
on what you're doing. You don't know, you lose
track of time, you lose track of everything.
You have no idea what's going on around you.
And that's, so it's called the flow state. And
we try and figure out how people can better get
into that because that's where you get your best
performance. And one of the things is to shut
off your phone, shut off your, you know, social
media, shut off everything. Just kind of go out
and just focus just on what you're doing. Yeah.
And I think, too, what people I I have had that
many times in the ring and I've worked on that.
I, you know, look, I have a little advantage
because of competing in different athletic endeavors
and those things. But. Also, I don't think people
are practicing that when they're training, right?
So like when I'm training, I'm focused 100 %
on my dog and on what I'm doing. Because if I
can't do it when I'm training, there is no way
in hell I'm going to be able to do it in the
ring. And I don't think people do that. Like
I think they're kind of casual and haphazard
when they're training. And then when they...
go in the ring and now they have the added stress
and nerves and whatever. There's no way you can
achieve it in the ring if you're not achieving
it or working on achieving it in training. Completely
agree. Completely agree. So back to what was
the term that I told you to remember? Attentional
resources. Yes. So our dogs have the same thing,
right? Yeah. So that would mean that would be
basically like the skill they have to develop
of being able to focus around distractions, right?
Which is why when a dog is first starting to
work around distractions, like they may look
be slower or look flatter because... they're
it's hard because they only thinking too hard
yeah yeah and I so I think that's important because
and I have absolutely fallen prey to this misinterpreting
that as oh The dog is sucky. The dog is flat.
So let me make them faster. Let me do things
to artificially make them faster, which I would
imagine would make it even harder for them to
concentrate. Absolutely. And that's part of the
challenge because they can't tell us what's going
on is the diagnosis. Are you lazy? Are you tired?
Are you bored? Or are you just thinking too hard?
Like we have to kind of figure that out for them.
In order to know how to address it. And I think
it's kind of funny because last weekend when
we were doing that in Creek, Debbie was calling
that really weird runoff pattern during the training
thing. And you yelled at me that I was going
too slow. That's because I was thinking too hard
about both my footwork and where I was supposed
to be going. And it did completely slow me down.
And I'm like, I understand how my dogs feel now.
So, yeah. Yeah. So we were doing these really
long. complicated healing patterns and um in
training and so in that and that's doing the
pattern I'm outside the ring and I look over
and I'm like why is she walking so slow and her
dog's looking at her like it was hilarious her
face That's what really made me notice because
she's looking at you like, what, what is wrong
with you? You don't normally walk like this.
Like, why are you walking this slow? It was so
funny. Yeah. So that's another good example of
like, you know, the dogs go through the same
in a lot of ways. They experience things very
similar to the way we do. Wouldn't you say? I
think so. I mean, there's no way to know for
sure because. Right. But I absolutely think so.
Yeah. Yeah. And then and then I why do people
not understand that? Like you said, like you
just said, like, oh, yeah, I went, oh, right.
This is what my dog feels like. And I think that
all the time. I'm like, oh, God, this is what
my poor dog feels like. Right. Or I try to explain
to people, like, for example, this is a big one.
They reinforce their dog. The dog's in the middle
of eating the cookie. Like, it's still going
chomp, chomp, chomp. And they start healing or
whatever. And I'm like, dude, the dog didn't
even finish eating. Like, how can a dog concentrate
on their job when it's still eating? Is there,
like, some sort of a, like, transition thing
in humans where they have to, like, right? Because,
like, if you task switch, doesn't it, it requires
a lot of energy, which is why they say jumping
between tasks is not efficient. Mm -hmm. behavioral
set that serves to that goal to a completely
different one. And, you know, it's not that you
can't do that on a dime. You have to kind of
like, okay, I need to put this aside and then
I need to start this. And it's, yeah, it takes
some energy. And I think it does for dogs too.
I was still hung up on though, on what you're
saying. Why don't people understand that, you
know, dogs see things a lot the same way we do.
Cause I'm always telling my students, cause they
don't, I didn't get a chance to listen to your
reinforcement podcast yet, but. I know my students
don't reinforce enough. And I don't just mean
they don't give cookies enough. They don't praise
enough. And I'm always on them for that. And
I keep saying, if you went to work and your boss
never once told you you were doing a good job,
never gave you any encouragement, and maybe gave
you your paycheck at the end of a month, how
would you feel about that? Would you enjoy their
jobs? They're like, no, I would hate that. I'm
like, well, why are you doing that to your dog?
And then they're like. Oh, like it doesn't occur
to them to think about the dog's point of view
in the same, you know, to relate that to how
they would feel. And I don't know why. I don't
know why it doesn't occur to them, but I had
this conversation with them all the time. That's
why I thought this was so interesting because
it's what a lot of things you're talking about
that you teach to humans, right? Like it's the
same thing for the dogs. Right. So why? I do
find that fascinating as well. Like when people
get annoyed when their dog doesn't want to stay
there and look at them for the moving stand,
I'm like, how would you feel if I told you, brought
you out in the middle of like... the town and
said stand there don't move and a complete stranger
walked up to you and started touching you that's
a really interesting visual but that is exactly
what we're asking them to do yeah like it's disgusting
like get off me uncomfortable Oh, it's so uncomfortable.
And then they're like, that's like the thing.
I think people, there's like a lack of people
really like trying to figure out how their dog
feels in certain moments and situations. Like
they just, I don't know, like if it was a person
they were doing that with, they would probably
more be more conscientious of how they felt.
Right. They might. I don't think enough people
put themselves in other people's shoes, to be
honest. Agreed. It's just like lack of empathy.
Humanity and empathy. Human race. I think people
just by nature are very self -centered, so it's
hard for them to do that. If I brought Petra
out in the middle of a crowd and said, all right,
everyone pay attention. We're going to do this
thing. Like, I would be conscientious of Petra's
feelings. Like, I don't want her to be uncomfortable.
This is probably uncomfortable for her. So I'm
going to, you know, be, like, conscientious of
that. But people don't do that with their dogs.
That's what I'm saying. I wonder if it's because
the dogs can't say or, well, first of all, they
can't read their, right? Like, maybe they could.
Like, aren't you right? I kind of agree within
that. Like sometimes people look uncomfortable
and other people don't even pick up on it. Or
they don't care. I don't know. I don't know.
Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. If they don't
notice or don't care, but. I don't know. I think
there's something to be said about that, though,
for sure. But for sure with dogs, though. I care
about my dog's feelings. Like I care about their
state of mind. I care too much. So I think that's
a thing. But I also think people aren't good
at reading their dogs. I know you guys have talked
about that before. Yeah, agree. I was laughing
because one of the first podcasts of you guys
that I actually listened to, you're talking about
how you just sit and stare at your dogs all day
long, like in fascination. And I'm like, doesn't
everybody do that? But apparently not. So I think
a lot of people, they can't read their dog at
all. And that's part of it. If you can't read
your dog, you can't have any idea what your dog
might be feeling. Yeah. Or assess anything at
all. Yeah. Yeah. We've done that. You know, we've
gone down that. We talk about that all the time.
And I said, like my students, I'm like, look
at your dog. They're like, what? I'm like, look
at your dog. What? And I'm like, oh, my God.
Really? Like your dog screaming that feeling,
like whatever it is. But I also think a big part
of that in dog training, there is a part where
they don't read the dog at all, but there is
a part where they can't because they have cognitive
overload. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Yes, definitely.
Like that poor 5 % is like about ready to explode.
Yeah, it's too much. It's overload. It is. And
now that you're saying that, it just made me
wonder. If people are, if you think people are
better about it when they're by themselves versus
like in front of the instructor, in front of
a judge, in front of their classmates. I don't
know, because I mean, so because I teach online,
they record it. Yeah, that's what I'm curious,
because you mostly see them by themselves. Yeah.
Although, if you're recording something, you
know that somebody's going to watch it. So it
does have the same effect as if there's an actual
person there. Yes, but they're not immediately
interacting with that person. So I'm not talking
to them. But it doesn't matter. So there's a
whole finding called social facilitation. And
what that refers to is if you're doing something
that's really easy for you and there's someone
else around, even if they're not really watching
you. your performance goes up and the kind of
mirror of that social impairment that if it's
something challenging for you, your performance
goes down. Now they started it with just like
an audience. Then they had someone sitting, they
did all these variations. There was one with
someone sitting blindfolded and headphones with
your back to you. You still get the effect. You
get the effect. If there's a camera, you get
the effect. If there's a mirror, like you can
socially facilitate yourself, which is fascinating.
So I'm wondering how much of that plays into
it because we only ever see people when they're
kind of. aware that someone's watching them and
I think it gets much worse when they go to a
show and there's a judge who you know is evaluating
you so I don't know it just kind of popped in
my head when you're talking so then how do you
overcome that though well I mean because you
have to at some point because first and foremost
you're going to go in the ring you're Not only
are you going to be judged, they're spectators.
I mean, that's always a huge thing, right? The
whole social pressure. Oh, and everybody thinks
that always kills me. Everyone's watching. No,
no, they're really not. I know. They're too worried
about themselves. They're not watching you. I
say that all the time, but they're so convinced
they are. And I'm like, and even if they are,
they really don't care. They only care about
themselves. I'm like. And I'll say, when you're
at a show, are you watching the people in the
ring? Well, no. Like, well, what makes you think
that they're watching you? You know, why are
you so special? But yeah. But to go back to your
what do you do about it? I think the answer is
you have to turn the task from something that's
hard for you into something that's easy for you.
So it has to be so ingrained and so habitual
and so something you're super confident in. And
then you'll get the performance enhancement of
having an audience as opposed to the impairment
effect. Well, and that probably speaks to that
a lot of people are going in the ring way before
they, never mind the dog, are really ready, right?
And so then that's going to make the whole thing
worse because then that's going to increase the
impairment because they're not. fully prepared
and confident and yep and then their performance
won't be anywhere near as good as it is when
they train alone or even you know just in class
and then that's discouraging and then the anxiety
starts to rise and it just kind of cycles to
where people get really frustrated oh my god
humans why are humans so complicated we make
our own lives so hard That we do. And then we
choose to go and compete and like make it worse
because it magnifies everything, right? Like
it magnifies all your insecurities, all your
self -doubt. Oh my God, we're so crazy. But when
it goes well, it feels so good. It does. But
these poor animals, like that they have to put
up with all this craziness. I do think that frequently.
I look at my dogs. I'm like, you put out guys
put up with so much nonsense from us. It's just
amazing. Yeah. And they're like, they, they're
fine with it. You know, they're just like, okay,
I still love you. You mucked that up completely,
but it's okay. Unless you're Zayna. Then she
tells you off. You're an idiot. All right. This
was really good. There's so much to unpack here
and so much to think about. So good. So good.
This was fun. I wasn't sure going in because
I'm like, OK, but it was actually really fun.
So thank you for having me. It wasn't going to
be bad. All we do is we just BS about dogs. And
I'm always trying to think, right, like how as
as a dog trainer and as a human teacher. Right.
Like, obviously, like Lori has said this many
times, like we want and you're the same. We want
our students to do well. Right. Like we care.
So. How can I explain it better and how can I
explain things better to my dog? Right. And how
can I explain things better to my students and
how can I be a better trainer? So. And learning
theory and psychology and all that, like it,
it plays a big role. And I think if we have a
better understanding, like when you said that
to me that day about the confirmation bias, I
literally have mentioned that exact thing to
my students and they go, oh, yeah, I'm doing
that. So like that's super helpful. Right. Like
for them to recognize that that's what they're
doing and that that's hindering them. And then
once they have that awareness, they can change
it. And I'm always looking at the learning theory
and like, how can I apply it to my dog training
and how can I be a better dog trainer? And I
think the more people understand, the better
it helps them personally and it helps their dogs.
Yeah. Yeah. Dream. It's awesome. Yeah. Thank
you. Thank you for letting me force you to come
on. It was fun. I was happy to do it. Now that
it's done. That was awesome. All right. Thanks
everybody. Happy training. Bye. Bye.