Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. So today, Lori and I decided to talk
about the opposite of what we talked about on
our last two episodes, which was reducing reinforcement.
And I think it kind of came up because I was
up in Connecticut. We were doing a training thing.
I don't even know how it came up. And we were
somehow talking and there was someone was there.
I don't. I feel terrible. You know, do you know,
what's her name? You know who I'm talking about,
Lori? That was talking about Raleigh. Yep. And
what's her name? Carol Perkins. Okay. And we,
so we were talking about Raleigh and how, I don't
even know how this came up, but how they tend,
have a tendency, and I'm not throwing shade here,
to practice courses all the time, right? Yeah.
Then, so, That kind of got us thinking about,
you know, some there are definitely instances
where people don't reinforce enough. And then
ironically enough, yesterday I'm training with
my two training partners and the one brings up,
you know, the podcast on reinforcement. And my
other training partner goes, you know, my students
have the opposite problem. They don't reinforce
enough. So it was funny that she said that because
you and I just that morning had decided that's
what we were going to talk about. It's not just
in rally. I kind of mentioned rally because there
is a strong tendency in that sport. And I see
that with students that I get from that sport
where they do several things. One is they just
practice courses all the time, which means the
dog doesn't get reinforced until the very end.
Um, but that's also common with like obedience.
Like as soon as people start putting chains together,
they just reward the, you know, they do the whole
exercise every time and they just reward the
end. And I'm sure it's common in other sports
as well, where once they start putting the pieces
together, they just reinforce the end. So I think
that can be problematic on several, on three
fronts. One is. You're not really addressing
engagement. And if there's a long chain, engagement
is going to get weak. Right. And engagement is
everything to reinforcement is super important
because it's information. Right. Like it's not
just, oh, my dog will only work. No, it's information.
It's telling you like you're correct or you're
not. And if you're not, here's what you need
to do. to rectify the situation so that would
be like me give i kind of thought about this
i thought this would be pretty funny so if i'm
if either you or i are given a lesson and the
students and we're like okay show me what you
can do and they start doing something with the
dog and then they look at us for information
and we go just keep going and we say nothing
and they look at us and we're like just keep
going like at one point at some point you're
going to be like what the hell like can you give
me some feedback here like and then if you kept
coming back at some point you'd be like oh my
god i hate these lessons why does my why does
whoever keep dragging me to these lessons like
i never get any information Right. So it's a
lack of information. And then the final piece
is, yeah, there is a level of motivation and
not for nothing. People, none of you are working
for free. So if you don't get paid, you're not
going to be as motivated to do your job. Right.
Like there has to be a certain amount of motivation,
especially when you're asking these animals to
do things that are. I'm animal like not at all
reinforcing in any way, shape or form. Like,
why would your dog want to do it? Why? Why? Because
they love you. Sorry. Ain't happening. It's so
true. You know, and I, I always tell people that
I feel like when. I did rally. That was my first
sport. So I find it really, really difficult
because I find that the start sign actually more
often than not is very, very near the entranceway
when you come through the ring gates. Like you
don't have a whole lot of time to get your dog
together to all that stuff. there's a little
bit of, if you don't have engagement worked into
your training and the process of, you know, getting
prepared for coming in the ring gate and getting
your dog locked in and dialed in like rallies
hard in that sense. I find that because you have
such a short window right there before you set
up at that start sign. And then I feel like,
sorry, I know I just cut you off, but I feel
like it's really, it's tends to be chaotic. around
most ring entrances for most sports, but I feel
like rally can sometimes be especially chaotic.
Yeah, I agree. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong,
but... I just feel like it moves, like, so quickly.
Like, you go in the ring gate, the start sign's
right there. Yeah, yeah. And, like, within seconds,
you know, you're being asked, are you ready?
And then you're gone. It's rapid fire behaviors
in that one to three minutes for however long
you're in the ring for. That's like for, that's
a lot of, like each sign itself has more than
one behavior, you know, like come front, halt,
round, left, you know. That is incredible. Like
if you, not only are you doing a whole chain
from the. time you start to the end. But in that
chain, it is like if you would sit and really
break down each sign and count how many behaviors
you're asking your dog to do, it's massive. It's
massive. I think that's another issue, at least
from what I've seen. So like, for example. Like
I've seen people teach their dog. I'm just going
to randomly pick a sign three steps back. Right.
And the way they attempt to teach three steps
back is by taking three steps back. Or the sign
is, you know, stop down, walk around. So they
teach it by stop down, walk around. Like I was
teaching these. I just mentioned these because
I was teaching those to Zaina the other day.
And I do like one. eighth of a step back yes
feed right until she gets that piece then I go
like you know one quarter of a step back yes
feed one half a step back and I might not even
get to one or two for like multiple training
sessions then with the down walk around you're
like well she's trained right well yeah but dogs
don't generalize well so I stop and I tell her
down and she looks at me like we don't heal stop
and down like that's not that's not a thing so
I heel stop down yes feed heel stop down yes
feed heel stop down yes feed separately I do
down walk around yes feed like break it into
small pieces and that's what I did with zeal
too and that's again like I don't feel like people
are doing that And maintaining that, right? Like
maybe that's how you taught it. But are you maintaining
that? Like in obedience, you know, we'll do a
drop on recall, drop the dog and reward the drop
like forever. Like the dog can be an odd gazillion
and you're still periodically doing that. Not
everyone, people should be. They don't, right?
So it's the same with rally. Like at you need
to be rewarding, not just the individual signs,
but the pieces of the signs. Exactly. Interesting
and fun and like motivational and like interesting
for the dog. Right. Right. And, you know, I think
a lot of. I mean, I can't say for sure, but I
had taken a few rally classes back when I was
first starting out in rally and it, there was
no, there was really for the most part, no breaking
signs down and working on individual signs. It
was set the course up and you just go from start
to finish and you were timed and you just. you
just got through it like that's kind of how the
like I felt the mentality was like you just need
to get through it yeah and it is I mean I have
a student now and you know so she was like oh
my dog was doing great and now my dog's gotten
to where it doesn't even want to go in the ring
right and um and she says like people have told
me in my class outside the ring as soon as I
say we're going in the ring the dog's like oh
right and I said well Do you, you know, have
you worked on ring entrances? Say what? You know,
I'm like, well, just so it also takes some like
I want to say, I guess, courage. Right. Because
if that's what everyone's doing now, you're going
to go against the grain. Right. Because I said
to her, I don't want you to do a course. No courses
for now. You're just going to go to class and
you're going to use your time, however many minutes
that is, and you're just going to work on your
ring entrances. And I don't even care if you
don't get into the ring. You need to change your
dog's state of mind outside the ring first. Then
you need to change your dog's state of mind crossing
through the ring gates. Then you need to do it
moving from the ring gate to your setup start
point. Right. And if you don't have any of that,
there's no way you should even be thinking about
starting a course. Right. And then once you get
that, which could take weeks to months, depending
on what, you know, the scenario, right? Like
what you've kind of inadvertently built into
the dog. And even then you have to maintain that
forever. When we train, if I'm training in my
backyard and I don't have anything set up, I'm
still doing like three or four ring entrances
every single training session. Yeah. Same. Always.
Right. Because that's so hard for the dog. Yeah.
And how am I going to maintain that? Right. So
and then the. taking the leash off we train that
piece we reward it heavily we make it a fun trick
like we make it a game right and then from there
moving to the start point and then setting the
dog up because now the dog's sitting there and
it's like oh my god the judge is there the people
are looking at me the noise is going on never
mind randomly rewarding signs right right Yeah,
I don't know. I don't want to like say the broad
spectrum is this is what happens in all rally
classes because I know like even talking to Danette,
talking to Carol Perkins, I know those guys work
on individual signs, breaking down behaviors.
But I think there is a large amount of classes
that it's just set up courses and go through
them, right? And I think you're right. Like it
has to, you have to still, like everything we're
doing in Rally, it's all, it's the same as obedience
in the sense that it's all obedience behaviors,
you know, sit, front, left, you know, finish,
all that stuff. And like you said, like we break
all that down. We go and reinforce all those
pieces, all the middle pieces. So even if you're
working on a sign. It's so important to break
that down and still work on motivating and reinforcing
those pieces and not just going from start a
to the end. Cause that's, I think, um, well,
you know, they, they need to reinforce good things,
right? This is a problem. It's a big problem
in obedience. It's a big problem in a lot of
sports, like where they, the dog's working nicely.
And they just keep going and keep going and keep
going until the dog makes a mistake. And then
they say to the dog, you're wrong. You made a
mistake, right? And then whether they handle
the error well or not, regardless, then, okay,
now they go again. Dog does it right. They keep
going and they keep going. Until the dog makes
another mistake. And then they're like, you're
wrong. And I'm like, oh, my God. The dog's like,
get me out of here. Yeah. Like, think about rewarding
the pieces that are good, because that's going
to motivate the dog and give the dog confidence.
Because again. Like I see the dogs like they're
doing and I see it in obedience to like, you
know, the dog looks so confused and unsure. It
just looks like. Unsure. Right. And if you say
to the dog, that's it. Good job. The dog goes,
oh, thank God I'm doing it right. Right. And
if you do that routinely, your dog's going to
go, oh, I. I'm good at this. I know what to do.
Like not getting information is a weird feeling.
Like, um, I just did this thing and nose work,
right? Like we really have to put ourselves in
the dog's shoes. So, um, there's a big area and
my instructor says, um, okay, I'm gonna, I'm
not telling you how many hides are in here. And
you have to go through the whole building, find,
you know, as many as you can. And then tell me
when you're done, like when you feel like you've
cleared the whole room. Right. Yeah. So I do
it with Zesty. And then I look at her like I
go, well, I kind of said, I'm done. Like, I think
I'm done. Like, I think I did it because, you
know, I'm new. I don't know what the hell I'm
doing. Right. And she looks at me and she goes,
well. I'm not going to tell you because I want
you to run it with Zaina. Now, what's the first
thing I think? Oh God, I must've fucked it up.
That must be why she's not telling me because
she wants me to go with Zaina and see if I figure
it out and fix what I did wrong and blah. So,
and then of course I had to like stop myself
and go, no, she's just doing it so that, you
know, you can do it with Zaina and not. be skewed
or whatever but yeah the dog's not gonna the
dog's gonna have that same feeling like I did
it was it right right was it wrong right was
it good was it bad well that self -doubt creeps
in just like yes I must have screwed something
up because she's not telling me anything she
doesn't look happy she's telling me come on come
on come on sit sit sit down down down I must
be wrong. Yeah. Yeah. That definitely plays into
it for sure. Without a doubt. And I think that's
what people need to think about because so many
of the behaviors, I get this constantly. My dog
panicked in the ring. I look at the video. Nope.
Your dog's not panicked. Your dog's confused
as shit. My dog stressed out in the ring. Nope.
Your dog's confused as shit. My dog's, you know,
not giving me effort. No, your dog is confused.
Oh, poor dog. Like nine out of 10 times your
dog's confused or your dog's doing displacement
behaviors because it's confused or it's just,
it's distracted because you haven't taught it
engagement, right? Or maybe you taught engagement,
but you're halfway through the course and the
dog loses engagement and you just keep going.
right well if you do that enough times your dog's
gonna go oh i guess it's okay to look away because
no one ever said i shouldn't right so i may as
well look around yeah and that's um yeah that
and i think too that you know there's there's
a lot to it but a big one too is making sure
that The dogs actually know the behaviors that
they're actually taught thoroughly those behaviors.
Well, I think that's a big thing. Like, I think,
I think that rally can be misinterpreted as an
easy sport for the dogs to do, you know, like
kind of anybody can do it. We can all go in and
get through, get through the course. But again,
it goes back to it's, is it fair to just go in
and wing it when your dog really doesn't know
some of the behaviors really well? Because I
see that too sometimes, you know. You can see
it's just the confusion from the dog because
the dog doesn't really know how to do that. And
that's where, you know, there's the begging and
the pleading and the. all that going on in the
rally ring to just get through the course. And
I always like, it's hard to watch that sometimes
all the time. Well, it's hard to watch because
the dog's not comfortable. Right. And yeah. And
it's like, it's, it's at the expense of your
dog. Like that's how I feel. Like your dog is
put in a really hard spot, you know, because
they're being asked to do. two, three minutes
of work. And like I said, in obedience, we have
eight to 10 minutes, whatever. We have in between
exercises. I love that we have that. We have
in between those transition periods where we
can give feedback and we can do whatever until
the next exercise. Like I said, like I find rally
to be really hard in just that sense. It's rapid
fire, rapid fire, rapid fire, rapid fire. Like
the dogs need to be, I mean, that level of engagement
definitely needs to be there for that entire
time. So. And I find, so my students, my rally
students, they'll take like certain courses and
they're like, well, I can't pre -cue or I can't.
do the transition right because like we do in
obedience because they don't have that option
so I'm like totally fair however like if you
what you do have is those at those signs you
can make them so fun that they're self -reinforcing
like when I did it with like each sign I did
he was like oh my god this is so fun because
i took the individual sign and made it a fun
trick right like i would just break it down into
little pieces reward the pieces and then like
reward it heavily and then um do it and then
play a game afterwards and he just thought like
the behaviors were so fun and then after each
one i can say good job buddy wow and so basically
each sign in essence for him was almost like
he was getting reinforced right in his mind right
um and that goes back to taking those signs and
a like you said Teaching it so well, because
if the dog knows something really, really well,
they're confident. Yeah. And then when you say
do this, they're going to go, oh, I can do that
because I know this inside out, backwards, forwards,
upside down. And then I'm going to go, good job.
And the dog's going to go, I knew it because
I know this really well. So make sure the dog
knows it. extremely well in isolation, then reinforce
it like forever, not every single time, but I'm
saying teach it with heavy reinforcement, then
fade the reinforcement. But then just like the
other day, I just did some healing, right? So
I did forward right turn feed, forward left turn
feed, forward about turn feed with my seasoned
experienced competition dogs you might say well
why would you do that because I want to reinforce
the pieces that keeps them sharp it keeps my
dog it keeps them enjoyable keeps it fun and
I'm saying to my dog yep that's right that's
right over and over my dog's like yeah I know
how to do this so that's what you need to do
with those rally behaviors right like just and
you can just do it in your living room like in
your house yeah definitely all of those little
things for sure yeah so and um we're gonna have
to have probably multiple episodes just on engagement
alone right because i think that's another thing
that like you go to a class and you do Like,
I know that every year, these poor dogs, like,
because, I mean, we think obedience nationals
are hard. I mean, we specifically train for months
and months just for the NOC because the challenges
are different because there's so many rings going
on at the same time. And it's so distracting,
not just because of the multiple rings, because
of the people, the announcers, the whole thing.
Yeah. That is like a joke compared to 600 or
400 rally people with like 80 ,000 rings. Yeah.
Holy shit. Like. Yes, it is. Yes. Like when we
go to the NOC, like when I, like I. Last year
when I got there, we popped in early and I was
like, holy Hannah. I could not believe the amounts
of people in that building. Yeah. So if you think
about the audio level, right? The energy level,
because there's stress. The dogs are stressed.
The people are stressed. The smells, right? The
motion that's going on. If you're in a middle
ring, there is massive amounts of motion on all
four sides. There's noise everywhere. There's
chaos outside the ring. I can't imagine trying
to get to, never mind, into your ring. And it's
very common that people just do their normal
rally routine and then they go to rally nationals.
And then they're like, oh. Yeah. My dog had a
meltdown. I don't know why. I'm like, you don't
know why. And I don't mean that in a mean way.
I mean, like they don't even understand because
people aren't addressing it or talking about
like, right. You know, we need to work on engagement.
We like if. If I was taking my dog to rally nationals,
I would be training all over the plate, like
in the middle of stores, like in the middle of
chaos, like in a park where there's soccer games
going on. And I would be trying to get people
together and, you know, do a partial run while
there's chaos going on around the ring and people
are yelling things and dogs are barking. Right.
Because otherwise, yes, your poor dog is going
to have a nervous breakdown. Yeah. Yeah. Because
the level of difficulty is through the roof for
sure. Through the roof. And imagine, I'm sure
there are many people that have gone that they,
the human struggled, right. With focus and made
mistakes. Oh yeah. So imagine then how the dog.
Must feel in that situation. Right. Yeah. So
even and even if you don't do rally nationals,
even if you're just, you know, locally showing
and rally still, it's hard. Right. Distractions
are going on. The judges in the ring. Things
like dark corners, like, you know, when you have
a rally ring, they're squeezing stuff into like
every. square inch of that ring they are no yes
so and some dogs like go into a corner and they're
like i don't i don't like this corner right um
so like that's something that Should be worked
on and like recognized, first of all, like and
like and everything's kind of close. So pressure
is an issue as well. Right. Like feeling pressure
from the signs, from the corner, from the judge
following around. And I don't really see much
talk. And I'm not saying no one's out there doing
it. I'm saying in general about. the effect of
pressure in a ring and like how that impacts
a dog and how to help a dog and teach a dog to
handle the pressure and be comfortable with that.
Yeah. I'm not sure that is addressed enough in
Rally. You know, I like I. when I, I took a few
private lessons with Danette, um, Danette Chorney.
And I mean, she's amazing. She's an, she's an
AKC rally judge and she really definitely like
teaches her students all the, you know, about
engagement and about big things. She really teaches
is like mapping out your strategies from sign
to sign. Like I was blown away by that. Like,
cause So then right there, I'm like, all right,
it's not even about like I have to freaking remember
the signs, memorize the signs. Now it's like
when you walk that course, it's like I have to
remember like from this sign to that sign, like
what I need to do for my dog to help my dog get
to that sign, to be able to execute that sign
well. Like it was like I was like, holy shit,
like this is crazy. This is intense. And she's
like, yeah, yep. And she was purposely setting
up courses for me like that were hard. She's
like, these are some of the things that they'll
do at nationals. Like, they're going to stick
this sign in this corner because they're going
to see if that, you know, people can get their
dogs navigated through efficiently there without,
you know, having an issue. And dogs, they set
them up purposely to see if it's going to, like,
kind of screw the dog up a little bit. Like,
I was blown away by that. So she definitely does
a lot of that stuff. But I don't think it's addressed
enough, like you said. Well, and that. that is
huge right like taking responsibility for your
part in this because your part in rally is enormous
like you need to memorize the sign you should
not walk to the sign look at it with two eyeballs
analyze it And then think about what you're doing
to execute the sign, because if you're doing
that, guess what? You're leaving your dog completely
hanging. That is not a team. You're not being
a teammate. Right. You need to. And I'm not saying
it's easy because it is hard because I remember
thinking, oh, yeah, this rally stuff so easy.
And then I started looking at all the signs and
I was like, oh, shit, it's not easy. And I went
out. This is so funny. First of all, I, oh my
God, I go in one of the rings. I'm literally
like a novice, right? And I walk in and they're
like, you don't have the right leash or I didn't
have a leash or something. So that was like a
big debacle. You had your slip leash on. You
had your slip leash on. I had something completely,
I fucked up. They're like, then, and I had to
leave the ring and then I, it was a whole big
thing. Then I do this course and I, and then
I finish and the judge looks at me, goes, what
was all good except for that sign over there.
I don't know what, whatever you did, you did
a lot of moving and spinning and I don't know.
And I left the ring and I'm like, I did that
sign perfectly. I know I I've been practicing
that move, that double about turn thing. And
I'm like, and I look at the videotape. I go,
I did it. Perfect. Well, that wasn't the sign.
It was just a plain old fucking right turn. And
I, or about turn. And I did some fancy schmancy
thing. I'm, you know, and I'm like, Oh, that's
expensive. You know? So the point is like, It's
my job to memorize the signs first and foremost.
And cause they're very, you know, sometimes you
have to stop. Sometimes you do it in motion and
it's my job to memorize the course so that. I
only need to glance at the sign, like to either
as partially maybe to orient myself and partially
as a quick little reminder, but I shouldn't have
to stare at the sign. I should just maybe glance
really quickly or see it out of the corner of
my eye so I can maintain my connection to the
dog. Well, the other thing too is it's, I found
when I did rally and then when I took some of
those lessons with Danette, like you get to a
sign and like you, You better be – like you better
know that sign so well because you should already
be thinking about your next sign. Like that's
how I felt. Like I needed to be so proactive
and two steps ahead, right? Because I didn't
like – and there were a couple of times where
I would all of a sudden like I'd get stuck on
something and then I'd be at the next sign. I'd
be like, oh, shit. What are we doing at this
sign? Like I, it was so hard. Like mentally it
was so hard. That's why I feel like it's that
rapid fire, like moving. Like some of the signs
are only like two feet apart. Like you better
fucking know your shit and be ready for the next.
Well, and I think people need to take responsibility
for that. Right. And they should be taught that
that's their job. Right. Like they shouldn't
be taught. Like if I was teaching a rally class
and you walked around staring at the sign, I'd
be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah.
Get your dog, put them in the crate. Here's a
pile of flashcards. Memorize these signs or memorize
this course. You know what I'm saying? Like,
I don't want you staring. at the sun like that's
your responsibility like I literally think to
myself I'm like oh like in a few years I'm gonna
300 if not sooner do rally I'm like that'll be
such a good way like when I get older to keep
my brain sharp because it is such a mental challenge
and that's exhausted by it I'm like holy crap
Yeah. And we should embrace that, right? We should
embrace that as it is a mental challenge. It's
a puzzle. Challenge yourself. Think about it.
Like every time you do that, you're building
new neurons. Like you're keeping, you're staving
off Alzheimer's and dementia. Like this is good
for you. Have a positive outlook about it. And
because that's only fair for your dog. Like we
get so annoyed, like you down and your dog doesn't
down. He didn't down. Well. You messed up the
sign, honey. So like, how about that? How about
you take response? You know, how about we mess
up a sign and it's like, oh, whoopsie, we messed
up the sign. Our dog messes up the sign. It's
like, oh, the dog messed up the sign. Well, sorry.
you know someone should be holding you should
be holding yourself equally accountable that's
why my dog messed up the sign i'm not going to
even get on their case i am going to go it's
a training issue i need to go fix it but more
than likely they messed up the sign because i
messed up the sign right exactly exactly it's
hard rally's hard it's really hard i thought
i think it's super fun though like i'm really
looking forward to i love doing it with zeal
Like I wasn't even, I was like, oh, I'm not going
to, I loved it. I didn't think I was going to
like it. I'm going to, so I'm training. I'm starting
to teach Zaina some of the signs. After the NOC,
I'm really going to buckle down. And I'm going
to give it a go with her. Like I hope she likes
it because I like it. Yeah. And I kind of do
like the. I did like the like rapid fire and
that it changes constantly. I like the variety.
Yeah. I mean, like, I like that it's different.
I like that there's so many different moves for
lack of a better word. Right. Right. And I think
the dogs like that if it's trained properly and
if we're giving them information, like I said,
like I know. People get nervous in the ring and
et cetera, et cetera. But like Zeal loved that.
I would be like, good job, buddy. And he's like
real like, oh, and then I, you know, two seconds
later, you're at the next sign. Yeah. Good boy.
Nice job. Right. Like I wasn't incessantly talking,
but I was praising him. And he loved that. Yeah.
And I think talking to Carol and Danette, they
were like, people don't praise enough. They both
said that they were like, they go through the
whole thing. And they're like, tell your dog,
like, give them some feedback, like, let them
know because you can do that. Yeah, like you
could totally you can do that in the ring. So
you should be doing it in training. And then
in training. Even if your dog's super advanced,
you should periodically be breaking out the signs,
feeding them individually a fair amount, keeping
them fun. And then if you're doing courses, you
should randomly throughout the course mark and
reinforce your dog. And you should do it with
food not on you. Like put the food right outside
the ring or on the steward's table, right? Yes.
run and give them a piece of food go back to
the sign you left continue on from that sign
right and always randomize where you feed not
always like after you finish your sign sometimes
in the middle of healing from one sign to the
next sometimes in the middle of doing a sign
right like don't finish the whole thing just
in the middle of it go get so your dog never
knows when it's going to get reinforced which
is going to be really fun and exciting for them
because they're going to be like maybe now, maybe
now, maybe now. And then you're like now, and
they're going to be like, wow. Right. Cause at
the end is so predictable. It's like, why, you
know, if you're looking from purely a motivational
standpoint, why am I going to put effort in until
the end? Right. Exactly. Nothing ever. I never
get rewarded. Right. for that. Like, you know,
what, why am I going to try hard? Like, what's
the point? It just, there's no reason for it.
Right. It's true. Yeah. So engagement, which
we're going to is important for all sports, including
rally, um, ring entrances, keeping everything
fun. Yeah. Rewarding enough. Right. Don't always
do chains like reward pieces. Yeah. Making sure
because I think touching upon like distractions
and stuff, I think that I don't know if people
who exclusively do rally really get their dogs
out in more distracting environments because
they just go to class and do the rally courses.
But that's like. You can still go do sign behaviors
out in stores and stuff. Like you have to definitely
put the distractions in for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I think that's. You don't have to rely
on the signs for engagement. Just like when I
start doing obedience and sometimes even to this
day, when I do obedience, when I go to a store
or something, I'm not always doing like a full
healing pattern and a full retrieve and a full
list. Sometimes I'm just doing pieces like I'm
doing like for command discrimination. I'm telling
my dog to down, walk away, turn. Yes. Good job,
buddy. That was really good. Right. Or drop on
recall. Leave my dog. Turn and face my dog. My
dog looks happy. Yes. Good job, buddy. That's
it. Things like that. Like you don't have to
do the full exercise or the full sequence. Right.
So you could literally just go and. heel and
do right turn left turn or do front finish or
do the sign without the sign being there you
should know how to you know you should know most
of the signs at certain point and but work on
engagement the focus should be that the dog learns
how to stay focused around distractions because
what you know big thing with engagement i always
tell people now If you're doing a hard task.
That requires. I feel like I said this recently.
But who knows. That requires a lot of concentration.
And you're doing it in your house. That's one
thing. But if you have to do it at Starbucks.
And it's a busy day at Starbucks. It's hard.
Because you have to tune all that stuff out.
While concentrating. And that's what we're asking
our dogs to do. And that's a skill. Like that.
is really hard and it it's like a muscle like
at first when i take a dog start taking them
to new environments maybe if i only get a couple
like a tiny little bit of engagement like they
can do two or three behaviors and i can see that's
hard for them then i'm like i'm out and then
i have to build on that little by incrementally
incrementally incrementally until my dog can
do A minute, two minutes, three minutes, four
minutes continuously, because that is very hard.
Very hard. And it is. It's a it's a taught skill.
I don't I'm not sure everybody understands that
and the importance of it. That has to be taught
and it has to be done incrementally for the dog
to learn that skill for sure. Yeah. And I think
that. Yeah, that's just not worked on enough.
And it's not it's really not worked on if you're
doing if you're doing a run through in class,
like a course, like how are you working on engagement?
Right. Like. To me, engagement trumps everything.
Yeah. Whether it's obedience rally, any sport,
really, I have a student in my one class doing
waterworks. I don't even know. I didn't even
know it was a thing. Yeah. Nevermind what it
entails or, you know, so it's all new to me,
but in essence we worked on, it was so fun, but
it's a completely different sport. And you're
like nothing like obedience or rally, but what
is it? It's a bunch of behaviors, right? At the
end of the day. And it's a bunch of behaviors
that are strung together. So that's what we had
to work on. And the dog has to be engaged because
if the dog's not engaged, it doesn't, it's not
paying attention. Right. It's not paying attention.
How can it follow your instructions? Right. How
can it even, it's not even going to be looking
at the buoy out there that it has to go retrieve.
Right. It's out at a lake. My dog should be like.
That's so funny. Cause I have a student with
this, we're doing the same thing. And she's like,
yeah. And it was so funny. Cause she's like,
I never like, she's like, this is a thing, this
engagement. I'm like, yes. In everything we do
with the dog. She's like. holy crap. She goes,
cause these dogs, like some of them, they just
want to go get, you know, they want to go to
the other boat. They want to go to the other
boat. And people are like, I just, I don't even
care about the engagement piece. I'm just going
to let my dog go do the thing. And she's like,
it's a freaking shit show. She goes, this is
like, this is a thing. We need to get engagement.
She was like so shocked about it. And now she's
like working so hard on it. It's so cute. I love
it. I know. Yeah, it's so fun. This person I'm
working with, she's great. She has really good
instincts. But it's all new. And she's been doing
this a long time. She's a judge in this sport,
but it's not something they ever talked about,
like transitions, pre -cues, like, you know,
breaking the behavior down. She's like, why did
you do that? I go, he's just not even, he's not
confident. He's not, it's all the same issues,
right? He's not confident. Just tell him he's
right a bunch of times. Oh, and look, now the
dog's like, oh, I know what to do. Run out and
grab the thing. Yeah, he just needed to be told
he was right. He was just like, oh, I'm not sure.
You know, so it's like dog training is dog training
is dog training, right? Like she has all the
same pieces for that sport. need to be in place
to get the kind of work she wants. Right. Right.
And not just the kind of work she wants the dog
she wants. Cause really what is it is she's like,
well, my dog doesn't, why is my dog doing that?
You know, I don't want my dog to look like that.
I don't want my, right. Why does my dog look
like that? Cause your dog's confused. Oh, well.
No one wants their dog to be confused or you
don't want your dog to be worried or uncomfortable.
Nobody wants that, right? So, okay, well, that's
why these things matter, right? Because when
your dog is barely making it through the course,
yes, you got the ribbon. Maybe you even got a
placement. But are you happy with how your dog,
with your dog's experience in the ring? And I
think a lot of people aren't. They just don't
know how to fix it or what piece is missing or
what to do. Yeah. Why all that happened. Yeah.
Yeah. So, yeah. So, reinforce more. Reinforce.
Yeah. The pieces. Motivate them. Teach them.
Teach all the pieces. Be a good teammate. Learn
your signs. Take responsibility. And engagement.
And that's going to have to be. Another topic
we have to tackle. For sure. All right. Thanks
everybody. Thank you. Bye.