WEBVTT 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:13.160 Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.120 podcast. Today, Lori and I are going to continue 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:20.879 talking about reducing reinforcement. So in the 00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:24.100 last episode, we talked a little bit about, you 00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:27.019 know, making sure that we understand the value 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:30.620 of the reinforcement and the value it holds for 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:33.020 the dog and different things have different values. 00:00:33.859 --> 00:00:37.039 Why are we giving using the reinforcer? What's 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:40.460 the purpose behind it? Are you even aware? of 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:43.780 how much you're reinforcing and are you reinforcing 00:00:43.780 --> 00:00:48.219 so much that you're inadvertently creating learned 00:00:48.219 --> 00:00:51.000 helplessness and that, you know, we should really 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.600 give our dogs a lot more credit because they 00:00:54.600 --> 00:01:00.179 can do a whole lot more than we expect of them. 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:04.599 And I think like a couple examples come to mind. 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:06.340 Like I was just looking at one of my students 00:01:06.340 --> 00:01:09.200 homework review with her puppy. He's very young. 00:01:10.589 --> 00:01:15.750 Um, and she's doing like what I would consider 00:01:15.750 --> 00:01:18.209 for a puppy that age. I mean, it's literally 00:01:18.209 --> 00:01:20.829 a puppy. It's got, it can't be more than five, 00:01:20.930 --> 00:01:22.909 four or five months old, five months old, maybe 00:01:22.909 --> 00:01:28.030 four or five months old. And like, she waits 00:01:28.030 --> 00:01:30.730 cause she waits for the puppy to find heel position. 00:01:30.909 --> 00:01:33.689 Cause we're not micromanaging this puppy. We're 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:36.230 letting himself problems and he's doing it beautifully. 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:39.640 So he gets a little distracted. She waits. He 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:41.980 comes back, puts himself in heel position. She's 00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:44.040 like, good boy. She doesn't give him a cookie. 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:48.120 She starts healing him. She heals him. She does 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:52.000 a few steps, does a spin, heals a little more, 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:54.680 does a spin, heals a little more, does a spin. 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:01.540 Then heals a little more, then gives him a reinforcer. 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:05.439 That's a lot. That's a lot. For a puppy that 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.719 young. And that puppy is happy as a clam. His 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:15.840 ears are up. He's bouncing. He's prancing. It's 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.500 pretty amazing, really. But it's because she 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:24.840 started this puppy this way, right? Solving problems. 00:02:26.060 --> 00:02:29.219 not giving a high rate of reinforcement so she's 00:02:29.219 --> 00:02:33.219 not even building that expectation in she's already 00:02:33.219 --> 00:02:37.300 teaching the dog which isn't to say she'll never 00:02:37.300 --> 00:02:40.979 in certain instances give the dog more reinforcement 00:02:40.979 --> 00:02:46.680 but um she's just kind of like building that 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.840 in that expectation a lower expectation in terms 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.860 of how often you're going to get reinforced i 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:58.430 think when we have created inadvertently an expectation 00:02:58.430 --> 00:03:01.530 and we start saying, okay, holy Hannah, like 00:03:01.530 --> 00:03:04.849 I've been pumping cookies into my dog. I need 00:03:04.849 --> 00:03:09.969 to start reining that in. You're going to hit 00:03:09.969 --> 00:03:13.289 points and I'm not saying go from 30 cookies 00:03:13.289 --> 00:03:18.530 to five, right? Gotta go from 30 to 25 to 20 00:03:18.530 --> 00:03:23.129 to 10. But when you start reducing reinforcement, 00:03:24.430 --> 00:03:27.150 Your dog is at some point going to look at you 00:03:27.150 --> 00:03:30.830 and go, cookie now, right? And you're going to 00:03:30.830 --> 00:03:35.469 go, no, we're continuing on. And the dog is going 00:03:35.469 --> 00:03:40.050 to look unhappy, which is going to trigger us 00:03:40.050 --> 00:03:44.789 emotionally. And we have to understand that that 00:03:44.789 --> 00:03:49.449 look of sadness or unhappiness or disappointment 00:03:49.449 --> 00:03:54.740 or all these words is really confusion. That's 00:03:54.740 --> 00:03:58.039 really what it is. It's just confusion. The dog 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:02.759 is like, I don't understand why I didn't get 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.360 reinforced here because I always get reinforced 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:12.759 here. So this is different. I'm confused. I don't 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:18.220 understand what to do now. And in that moment, 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:23.720 you need to just do whatever you can. to get 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:27.420 your dog to give you just a little bit more work, 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:31.360 whether that's just a few tricks or whether it's 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.680 just like a little more healing or, you know, 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.019 come on, buddy, you can do it. Let's transition. 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.519 Let's move down here. And I'm going to set you 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:45.399 up for an exercise and then reinforce. So now 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.660 you're teaching the dog. No, just because you 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:51.199 didn't get reinforced, it doesn't mean you're 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.410 wrong. We just need to go a little bit more and 00:04:55.410 --> 00:05:02.370 then you'll get reinforced. Yeah, so that's so 00:05:02.370 --> 00:05:07.050 important. Kudos to your student for building 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:12.089 that in really early on because I think it's 00:05:12.089 --> 00:05:16.439 really hard for a lot of people to... people 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:18.680 especially who are new to training and they just 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.560 start training a new puppy or a new dog, it's, 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:25.060 you know, the go -to is instinctively just to 00:05:25.060 --> 00:05:28.620 feed a crap ton of food to the dog when you're 00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:31.660 teaching and building new behaviors. And then 00:05:31.660 --> 00:05:34.800 what happens is a lot of times, as we all know, 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:37.040 then all of a sudden we're like, like you said, 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:41.399 like, wow, okay. The dog is, the puppy is now 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:43.620 seven months old and I've been pumping 8 ,000 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:46.180 cookies into that one single behavior every single 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:49.680 time. So now that's just, that reinforcement 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:55.180 history is there already. So then. you know, 00:05:55.180 --> 00:05:58.579 the longer it goes, the harder it is then to 00:05:58.579 --> 00:06:01.839 have to explain to the dog. So it is, it's, it's 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.480 pretty fascinating how even at a young age with 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.759 a young puppy, like you can definitely start 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:13.540 building that concept in that not every rep may 00:06:13.540 --> 00:06:17.639 get a cookie or, you know, you know, that's where 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:19.319 we're going to go into today is talking about 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.399 some variable reinforcement built into your training. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.379 It's just, it is really important to start that. 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:30.819 Like we want progression too, right? Like you 00:06:30.819 --> 00:06:34.560 don't want to stay stuck at the same behavior, 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.800 feeding the same behavior the same way every 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.699 time. Because at the end of the day, I always 00:06:40.699 --> 00:06:43.879 tell my students, remember, remember, we talk 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:47.160 about this all the time. Your goal is to be able 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.220 to go in for X amount of minutes without any 00:06:51.220 --> 00:06:54.610 reinforcer. So when you're training your dog, 00:06:54.709 --> 00:06:56.990 that's where you need to like write it down, 00:06:57.209 --> 00:07:01.129 right? Like you need to somehow mindfully put 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:05.689 that into your head that you need to start to 00:07:05.689 --> 00:07:10.310 progress toward reducing reinforcers at some 00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:15.790 point. And again, part of that is so important 00:07:15.790 --> 00:07:19.189 is how do you know you're making progress if 00:07:19.189 --> 00:07:23.629 you're not tracking it, right? Julie Bacon had 00:07:23.629 --> 00:07:27.569 us on her podcast and we were talking about like 00:07:27.569 --> 00:07:31.850 being good students and learning. And all of 00:07:31.850 --> 00:07:36.430 us agreed that if we're not in some way, shape 00:07:36.430 --> 00:07:42.329 or form tracking our training, however that looks, 00:07:42.449 --> 00:07:44.230 you know, it could be a journal. You could put 00:07:44.230 --> 00:07:46.430 it in your phone. You could use index cards like 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:49.740 everybody's brain is different. right whatever 00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:54.060 works for your brain but if you are not keeping 00:07:54.060 --> 00:07:58.920 track of it then it is going to go by the wayside 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.220 like there's no way like there's just too much 00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:05.959 going on in our brains like dog training there's 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.560 just too much we have to pay attention to if 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.589 you're not tracking it next thing you know six 00:08:12.589 --> 00:08:15.790 months have gone by and you've been feeding the 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:18.689 same behavior over and over and over and over 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:20.810 and then you go to not feed it and your dog's 00:08:20.810 --> 00:08:31.509 like whoa what just happened you know um so that's 00:08:31.509 --> 00:08:35.950 really important is for you to track and again 00:08:35.950 --> 00:08:39.320 you know There's not all or nothing. Everything's 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.539 a gradation. So there are some days where I'm 00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:47.539 working on very specific skills where I may give 00:08:47.539 --> 00:08:50.460 a higher rate of reinforcement, right? Or I'm 00:08:50.460 --> 00:08:53.259 purposefully trying to put value into something. 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:59.279 But then as soon as my dog is starting to understand 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:04.480 it, I immediately stop with that high rate of 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:08.820 reinforcement, like as quickly as possible, right? 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:12.159 So like a really good example of this is when 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:16.340 I teach dogs scent, right? So we all have these 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:23.940 tins and like the step one is I sent it and there's 00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:27.039 a cookie under it. And I'm telling you, I start 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.679 this with like a seven to eight week old puppy, 00:09:29.940 --> 00:09:33.299 right? So what in the old days? We would have 00:09:33.299 --> 00:09:37.519 paired the scent and the cookie for weeks. I 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.639 do it for days. Like as soon as I see the puppies 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:43.659 got the idea, I don't put the cookie underneath 00:09:43.659 --> 00:09:46.779 the tin anymore. And then as soon as the puppies 00:09:46.779 --> 00:09:50.679 got that idea, I start adding more tins and I'm 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.580 adding them very quickly. Like every couple of 00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:55.539 days I'm adding until there's a ton of them. 00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:57.639 And as soon as my puppy gets that, I'm throwing 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:00.919 distractions in there. I mean, literally at that 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.029 rate. Right. Of like, and then as soon as my 00:10:04.029 --> 00:10:06.629 puppy gets that, I start putting articles. Like 00:10:06.629 --> 00:10:12.409 the whole process moves very, very quickly. And 00:10:12.409 --> 00:10:15.250 the dogs across the board, all different breeds, 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.009 all different training levels, perfectly fine 00:10:18.009 --> 00:10:21.870 with it. Right. And what do I have to do with 00:10:21.870 --> 00:10:25.629 my students? Tell them, hurry up. Next step. 00:10:25.750 --> 00:10:28.710 Next step. Next step. Because they want to, the 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:33.399 instinct is to stay at that one step. Yeah. For 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:37.980 way too long. So now it's like too easy. The 00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:40.320 dog gets bored. And again, the dog's getting 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:45.720 reinforced. Rapidly. Rapidly. And for a very 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.100 simple task. If I keep making the task harder 00:10:49.100 --> 00:10:52.340 and harder and harder, maybe you're still getting 00:10:52.340 --> 00:10:55.860 eight cookie per rep, but you're doing more work 00:10:55.860 --> 00:11:03.090 per rep. Every single time. Yeah, and I think 00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:07.350 that's the whole progression thing where I think 00:11:07.350 --> 00:11:11.929 what happens is, like you said, people aren't 00:11:11.929 --> 00:11:14.389 keeping track of the progression. Like, they're 00:11:14.389 --> 00:11:18.230 not mindfully, like, being aware of that. Or 00:11:18.230 --> 00:11:21.029 some of it, too, I think a little bit is some 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:26.289 fear. The fear of moving forward and the dog 00:11:26.289 --> 00:11:28.990 making a mistake. We've talked about that, too. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.840 that's gonna happen anyway like we always we 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:37.820 always harp on this like they're gonna make mistakes 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:40.279 like that's the whole that's how you learn right 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:45.139 so there's a fear of trying to push it a little 00:11:45.139 --> 00:11:48.120 farther making it a little harder and then the 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:50.559 dog makes a mistake and then everyone thinks 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:52.559 their dogs are never gonna they're gonna fail 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:55.940 and never be able to go on the right it's pairing 00:11:55.940 --> 00:11:59.240 a mistake with like oh i just messed this whole 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:03.080 exercise up it's completely broken i'm sunk right 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.720 like uh no the dog just made a mistake right 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.019 like i'll have that student so god a terrible 00:12:09.019 --> 00:12:12.639 training session i ruin my dogs or i'm like oh 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:17.220 my god it's not ruined you know and you can always 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:21.139 go back so i err on the side of pushing a little 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:24.950 Yeah, me too. If anything too hard in the sense 00:12:24.950 --> 00:12:27.269 of like, I'm pushing, I'm pushing, I'm pushing 00:12:27.269 --> 00:12:30.289 up. Let me go back a step. No worries. I have 00:12:30.289 --> 00:12:33.250 no problem going back one or two steps. Right. 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:35.870 Okay. I went a little too fast. Sorry, buddy. 00:12:35.909 --> 00:12:37.850 Let's review those steps. Okay. You good now? 00:12:37.950 --> 00:12:41.409 And then push forward. Right. Because I always 00:12:41.409 --> 00:12:45.049 want, not because I'm hurrying, but because I'm 00:12:45.049 --> 00:12:49.529 pushing my, these dogs are so darn smart. They 00:12:49.529 --> 00:12:53.580 are. You should be. pushing they pick it up push 00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:57.639 them challenge them and and then they learn like 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:01.440 that figuring stuff out is fun that solving problems 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:06.240 is fun right um that versus this situation you 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.960 know where we're just like 30 ,000 reps of the 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:13.340 same thing actually um zesty's breeder recommended 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:15.580 this book on learning theory. And I literally 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:18.139 just, I'm in the, I just got through the first 00:13:18.139 --> 00:13:20.440 chapter and I'm like, oh, this book's going to 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.620 be so good. Cause already, obviously they're 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:26.740 talking about humans, but it's the same thing. 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:30.799 They're saying that just learning by repetition 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:36.370 is not the most efficient way of learning. So 00:13:36.370 --> 00:13:39.889 reading the same paragraph over and over for 00:13:39.889 --> 00:13:43.190 a long -term retention is nowhere near as effective 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:46.250 as reading it once and then quizzing them on 00:13:46.250 --> 00:13:49.710 it. Yeah. Right. So what does quizzing mean? 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:52.950 Cause we can't do a written quiz. It means make 00:13:52.950 --> 00:13:56.450 it a little hard. Yeah. And let me see, can my 00:13:56.450 --> 00:13:59.309 dog do it? And if my dog can't, then I'm like, 00:13:59.409 --> 00:14:02.779 okay, that's just information. Right. I need 00:14:02.779 --> 00:14:04.919 to go. Oh, he's a little confused. Let me go 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.139 fix this. Let me go work on this a little more. 00:14:07.379 --> 00:14:10.659 OK, let me make it hard again. That's the piece, 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:14.500 Patriot. Like, I think that a lot of my students 00:14:14.500 --> 00:14:17.740 will say they'll always turn and say to me, they'll 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:20.779 let me go. Well, what if well, what happens if 00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:23.100 he doesn't get it right or what happens if he 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:27.200 doesn't do it? Like, I think there's that real 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.019 honest. They don't know what to do if the dog 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:34.440 makes a mistake. Like, and I just look at them 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:36.240 and say the same thing. I'm like, it's okay. 00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:39.080 That's, that just means you just can go back 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.620 or back to where you were, you know, last right. 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:44.379 Make it a little simpler again before progressing 00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:47.740 forward. And they're like, oh, okay. And I think 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:50.120 that's a, that is a true thing. Like they really, 00:14:50.179 --> 00:14:51.980 a lot of people just don't know what to do in 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:54.659 that moment of the dog making a mistake. So that's 00:14:54.659 --> 00:14:57.360 why I think there's a little bit of that relationship 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:01.110 of. fear of i don't know what to do if he does 00:15:01.110 --> 00:15:03.250 make a mistake so i'm just gonna stay here for 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:07.909 months yeah and even just simplify like you know 00:15:07.909 --> 00:15:12.750 um in nose work like i would like i'm just learning 00:15:12.750 --> 00:15:17.590 right yeah so um i was setting stuff up and all 00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:21.269 of a sudden i'm like yeah zesty i'm like what 00:15:21.269 --> 00:15:25.389 he kind of is struggling a little bit right so 00:15:25.389 --> 00:15:28.490 then i thought about it and i'm like oh you know 00:15:28.490 --> 00:15:31.990 what, let me just make, let me just make, make 00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:35.830 it really easy. So he can just like, I'm like, 00:15:35.909 --> 00:15:38.129 that's what I would do in obedience. Right. I 00:15:38.129 --> 00:15:41.129 would like go back a few steps and make it easier 00:15:41.129 --> 00:15:44.090 for a little bit. So I just went back. I started 00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:48.529 pairing food with the searches. I put searches 00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:50.789 out and I was like, if there's a search that 00:15:50.789 --> 00:15:52.769 he's struggling with, I'm just going to pretend 00:15:52.769 --> 00:15:54.309 it's not even there. I'm just going to be like, 00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:57.440 just. So and just go out and have success, success, 00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:01.059 success. Right. And so I did that for a week 00:16:01.059 --> 00:16:03.519 and boom, his confidence went back. Everything 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.360 got better. And so now I'm going to start fading 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.460 the food. So the key is like, just go back to 00:16:10.460 --> 00:16:14.620 the prior steps. Right. Go back one or two steps 00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:17.059 in the whole process of your teaching them. And 00:16:17.059 --> 00:16:20.759 we do that forever because problems are going 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:25.159 to crop up. no matter if your dog is arch 15 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.279 right things are going to break down and then 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.200 the answer is always go break that skill down 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.679 the way you taught it and just refresh it yeah 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:38.940 but i think sometimes people think going back 00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:45.379 means regression like you're going like oh now 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.039 i'm losing momentum or you know i'm it's regression 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.570 going backwards in your training And that's not 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:56.850 at all true. Like every athlete does foundation 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:01.049 skills. Like, you know, you can be a runner and 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:04.390 you have to do core work your whole running career. 00:17:04.789 --> 00:17:08.250 Right. You don't just go, well, I did core when 00:17:08.250 --> 00:17:10.809 I started running and now I never have to do 00:17:10.809 --> 00:17:15.289 it again. Or I did, you know, form drills and 00:17:15.289 --> 00:17:17.650 I know I have good form now. I never have to 00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:21.930 do it again. Like, no. We're always going back. 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:25.049 Yeah. Revisiting. And revisiting that stuff. 00:17:25.130 --> 00:17:28.809 And that's not going backwards. That's, you know, 00:17:28.809 --> 00:17:33.289 every athlete, like every competitor will tell 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:38.369 you like fundamentals, like it's part of every. 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.539 pro athletes, teams, the whole nine yards. So 00:17:43.539 --> 00:17:47.519 it's not going backwards. It's a normal part 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.579 of the process. So if you just shifted your mindset 00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:54.180 and stop thinking like, oh, now I'm going back. 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.099 Right. No, just go back. You know, I can't tell 00:17:59.099 --> 00:18:03.380 you how many several times now my dogs have struggled 00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:06.519 with articles. I just go back. I pull out the 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.779 metal tins I taught them at. pull the bag back 00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:12.660 out and we go back when we do a refresher for 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:16.619 a week or two and then boom, problem fixed. Yep. 00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:23.960 Yep. Yeah. So definitely what is, you know, what 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.720 inhibits people from trying from pushing freely 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.079 for pushing forward in their training a little 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:33.160 bit for sure. Yeah. So now you have the answer. 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:36.039 If they get stuck, you just go back, but first 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.519 give them a chance. to puzzle it out, give them 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:41.819 a couple chances. Cause guess what? I bet you 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:43.579 they'll surprise you. Cause I can't tell you 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:46.640 how many times my students are like, he did it. 00:18:46.740 --> 00:18:50.579 And I'm like, uh -huh. I know. I knew he would 00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:55.359 be able to do it. And they're like shocked. And 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.640 I'm like, uh -huh. Go ahead and give him a chance. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.720 Right. That's right. So, um, so don't. Yeah, 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.160 so we need to push them. They'll do way more 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.200 without, you know, for less, especially if you 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.779 start conditioning that in and pushing for that 00:19:11.779 --> 00:19:15.420 and pushing for that over time. Yeah. And then 00:19:15.420 --> 00:19:18.279 when the dog does look a little concerned, you 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.220 can't like completely panic and bail. You just 00:19:21.220 --> 00:19:24.079 have to go, oh, interesting. Like to me, it's 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:26.420 information, right? When my dog gives me that 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:30.400 look, I go, huh, he expects a reinforcer now. 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:34.079 Okay. Let me see if I can push him a little further 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.839 and then I'll reinforce him. And then I make 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.819 a mental note. You know, this is where I must 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.240 be feeding a lot or too much or all the time 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.720 or. And then you have to kind of figure out like 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.599 you want to create little strategies. And this 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:53.059 is going to be very dog dependent and handler 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:57.349 dependent. Right. Like with Zaina, I can just 00:19:57.349 --> 00:19:59.710 look at her, touch the side of her head and say, 00:19:59.789 --> 00:20:03.730 good girl. Very good. And she's that makes her 00:20:03.730 --> 00:20:06.750 happy as can be. She already knows she's great. 00:20:06.829 --> 00:20:09.890 She's just like, oh, finally, you get it. I am 00:20:09.890 --> 00:20:14.029 good. And that's good enough for her. She's fine 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:20.309 with that. But with Zesty, it didn't mean anything 00:20:20.309 --> 00:20:23.950 to him. So when I was trying to figure out what 00:20:23.950 --> 00:20:27.210 can I do, I realized I was recording some games 00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:31.650 for this workshop that he likes motion. So I 00:20:31.650 --> 00:20:34.789 just do these little motion games with him and 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:38.809 I paid him a fair amount initially and then paid 00:20:38.809 --> 00:20:41.130 him less and less. And now he thinks they're 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:44.009 super, super fun. And we play them every time. 00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:47.779 Like I sidestep, sidestep, sidestep. Or I do 00:20:47.779 --> 00:20:50.480 some doodling, which is like step forward, step 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:54.299 right, step left, some pivots. He thinks those 00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:57.720 are really fun. And then I've been inserting 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.640 that into my reinforcement strategy. So a lot 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:07.720 of the times I'll say yes. Then I'll do the game. 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.160 So we'll go side step, side step, side step. 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:14.019 He bounces really hard into me. Then I move a 00:21:14.019 --> 00:21:19.019 little bit further. Then I reinforce. So now 00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:22.799 I put something in between there and it's starting 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.700 to add value because it comes before the reinforcer. 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.460 And then eventually I was able to periodically 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:35.319 use the games and then use one of those motion 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.740 games and then just keep going and not reinforce. 00:21:40.339 --> 00:21:43.380 And put that in place. And now I've been able 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.500 to actually use that in the ring. And it actually 00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:48.759 happened this weekend. At one point he was like, 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:54.200 oh, food now, right? And I'm like, nope. And 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:56.460 I'm like, come here, we're doing the game. And 00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:58.960 we did the game, did the game. And then I had 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.319 him back and we could keep going. And he was 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:05.259 in a good state of mind. Good. Yep. That stuff's 00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:10.920 so important. Building, having. And just some 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:13.759 thoughtfulness on what you can build into your 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:18.140 reinforcer or your reinforcement event that I 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:20.500 always say legally can follow you into the ring 00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:23.480 because we can't obviously bring food or toys. 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:26.140 So those little behaviors that you build into 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:30.420 those events definitely become valuable. And 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:34.319 it just becomes kind of a reinforcer in itself. 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:40.009 And then that acts as. Kind of like a cue to 00:22:40.009 --> 00:22:41.990 the dog that they're on the right track and that 00:22:41.990 --> 00:22:44.769 you're proud of them. And that's worth its weight 00:22:44.769 --> 00:22:47.410 in gold for those little things that you can 00:22:47.410 --> 00:22:50.549 bring into the ring and use in between exercises 00:22:50.549 --> 00:22:53.869 and whatnot. For sure. That's smart. Yeah. And 00:22:53.869 --> 00:22:56.589 for Zesty, it's huge because now I'm able to 00:22:56.589 --> 00:23:00.910 say to him, by doing that game, it acts as a 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:03.150 little bit of a reinforcer for him, which says 00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:05.869 to him, you're correct. That's the important 00:23:05.869 --> 00:23:09.220 piece. It's not about... Like that he won't work 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:12.500 for without. No, it's that he needs to know he's 00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:16.259 right. He needs to know he's on the right track. 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:19.539 Right. And that that's yeah, that you're doing 00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:22.140 the right thing. And I think that's what the 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:25.119 vast majority dogs are looking for. Right. That 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:29.240 information to tell them. That's it, buddy. You're 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.119 on the right track. Now you have to be really 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:35.259 careful and watch what you do and how, whether 00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:38.180 your dog likes it or not. Right. Like I've had 00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:41.400 students that are like, wow. And they bend down 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:45.619 and ruffle the dog's ears. And the dog is horrified, 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:50.299 horrified. It's like. Get off me. Right. So I'm 00:23:50.299 --> 00:23:52.900 going to I am starting to tell everybody now 00:23:52.900 --> 00:23:56.319 you need to have the dog you train and then you 00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:59.220 need to have a stuffed animal. You can hug and 00:23:59.220 --> 00:24:02.660 kiss and do all this stuff to the stuffed animal. 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:08.839 Leave your dog alone. Yeah, very few dogs. Now, 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:13.119 there are some that like certain amount, certain 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:16.910 types of. Physical praise. Yes, there are some, 00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:21.450 like I have one student, her dog, she like pets 00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:25.369 the dog and the, she, whatever way she does it, 00:24:25.390 --> 00:24:29.789 her dog, it's very clear. The dog loves it. And 00:24:29.789 --> 00:24:33.089 I had asked her to submit, um, I was like, can 00:24:33.089 --> 00:24:36.529 I borrow some video of that for, you know, a 00:24:36.529 --> 00:24:39.569 workshop? So she recorded it and she sends it 00:24:39.569 --> 00:24:42.539 to me and she goes, you know what? I was doing, 00:24:42.579 --> 00:24:47.680 I did all this petting in between to video for 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.259 you. And I realized that whole time I never gave 00:24:50.259 --> 00:24:56.819 him a cookie. I'm like, well, duh. So she, it 00:24:56.819 --> 00:24:59.720 took her having to do that to actually click 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:05.299 that. No, for this dog, that is so highly reinforcing. 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:09.599 It's probably equal to a cookie or at least. 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:12.500 It carries, she could do a bunch of them before 00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:16.099 she has to give a cookie. Yeah. So, but most 00:25:16.099 --> 00:25:18.240 students, they're petting their dogs, they're 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.299 bending over, they're like, and the dog's like, 00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:25.660 holy Hannah. Well, a lot of that too, just thinking 00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:27.980 about it too, I think that people aren't really 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:35.319 acutely aware of that. Well, I got to go back. 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:39.079 I feel that some of that is actually for the 00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:42.140 person to feel better. Do you know what I'm talking 00:25:42.140 --> 00:25:46.539 about? Like in the moment they want, like they 00:25:46.539 --> 00:25:49.799 don't, it's like kind of about them. They go 00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.859 to tell their dog they're doing a good job without 00:25:52.859 --> 00:25:57.400 even saying to themselves, like, does my dog 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:01.890 even fucking like this? I think that's a big 00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:04.670 thing. Like you're not even aware because you're 00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:08.450 in the moment, you're doing the thing, but you're 00:26:08.450 --> 00:26:12.210 not really even saying, does my partner enjoy 00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:16.009 this at all? Yeah, I mean, trust me, there have 00:26:16.009 --> 00:26:19.799 been times when I... there are still times when 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.839 I'm like so happy I just want to bend down and 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:27.160 hug him and kiss him but I refrain because I 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:31.759 understand that like I remember when Zeal was 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.599 in I don't know whatever novice open summit he 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.220 gave me it was a really hard venue he gave me 00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:41.779 such a nice class he gave me so much effort at 00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:45.319 class was over exercise finish. I was so delighted. 00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:49.500 I'm like, Oh my God, CLI bend down to hug him. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:52.000 And he jumps away from me. And he looks at me 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.519 like, thank you very much. You can praise me 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:58.099 from over there. Now this is a dog that was in 00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:02.119 the most physically affectionate dog I've ever 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:07.640 had. Like he hounded you to pet him until you 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:09.920 finally had to say, all right, enough, go, go 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:15.039 like, This is crazy. But in that scenario, he 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:19.359 did not like it. So I apologized and I never 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:24.019 did it again. So you need to watch your dog, 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:28.140 videotape it and be objective and say, does my 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:30.420 dog even like this? Because when I point it out 00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.079 to my students across the board, they always 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.019 come back and go, yeah, you're right. I can see 00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:40.000 that now. That's what I'm saying. Like in the 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:45.970 moment, you're in your own moment. You don't 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:48.410 even see it until it's like, dude, it's like 00:27:48.410 --> 00:27:51.450 blaring. Your dog is like, get the fuck away 00:27:51.450 --> 00:27:54.650 from me. Yeah. So you have to figure out what 00:27:54.650 --> 00:27:58.609 your dog likes, right? So I spent some time experimenting 00:27:58.609 --> 00:28:01.170 with Zessie. Like, okay, do you like if I touch 00:28:01.170 --> 00:28:03.509 you here? Do you like if I touch you there? Do 00:28:03.509 --> 00:28:05.809 you like if I say these words? Do you like it 00:28:05.809 --> 00:28:09.349 better if I shut up? Do you like, oh, you love 00:28:09.349 --> 00:28:13.809 motion. Okay, let me incorporate motion into 00:28:13.809 --> 00:28:16.630 this. Oh, you like this. Do you like this? No? 00:28:16.849 --> 00:28:19.029 Well, how about this? Oh, you like this. Good. 00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:22.009 Like, that's what you literally have to do. Like, 00:28:22.009 --> 00:28:24.009 you just have to go in your house or in your 00:28:24.009 --> 00:28:26.960 garage or whatever and just experiment. and play 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.799 around now and then just because the first time 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.900 you say to your dog yes and then you go to do 00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.500 this game and your dog doesn't do the game throw 00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:39.900 it out the window no your dog's used to you saying 00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.519 yes and immediately shoving a cookie into their 00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.700 mouth before you even finish the s and yes right 00:28:47.700 --> 00:28:51.420 so now you changed it it doesn't mean it's not 00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:55.849 gonna work it just means you need to give it 00:28:55.849 --> 00:28:59.029 some time and kind of convince your dog and be 00:28:59.029 --> 00:29:01.670 a little persistent and keep working on it. And 00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:04.269 all of a sudden your dog will go, oh, I get it. 00:29:04.390 --> 00:29:09.329 Right. And you'll be able to use that. Right. 00:29:10.490 --> 00:29:16.509 Yeah. So then we also, the other two things I 00:29:16.509 --> 00:29:20.089 do very purposefully with reinforcement is chaining. 00:29:20.630 --> 00:29:27.740 So it's teaching the dog. that the chain is going 00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:30.599 to get longer and longer, right? So you can say, 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:35.119 well, a simple chain is just one exercise, right? 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:40.440 Like drop on recall. It's putting all the pieces 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:43.700 of that exercise together, right? So the dog 00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:46.859 is used to you doing the setup and feeding or 00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:49.220 the drop and feeding. And now you're going to 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:51.900 say to the dog, well, no, I'm not going to feed 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:56.289 you until after you front. right so again the 00:29:56.289 --> 00:29:58.970 dog at first might look a little confused you 00:29:58.970 --> 00:30:01.089 might drop the dog and the dog might go i get 00:30:01.089 --> 00:30:04.029 a my reinforcer right and you might say front 00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:06.750 and your dog might go huh and you might have 00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:11.109 to say front again front come on buddy and help 00:30:11.109 --> 00:30:14.509 them out so they understand and then reinforce 00:30:14.509 --> 00:30:18.289 them right so they understand or it might be 00:30:18.289 --> 00:30:22.160 a longer chain like for a whole class So I start 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.779 that, I'll do like a ring entrance, one exercise, 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:32.140 maybe start a transition, then mark, and then 00:30:32.140 --> 00:30:34.880 my dog gets a jackpot, like a pretty high value 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:36.740 reinforcer, because I'm going to be asking you 00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:41.420 to do long chains. So I want the value of the 00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:45.460 reinforcer to equal or exceed the effort the 00:30:45.460 --> 00:30:48.940 dog is putting in. And then just once the dog 00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:51.619 gets that length in that chain a little bit more 00:30:51.619 --> 00:30:54.480 and a little bit more and a little bit more. 00:30:54.539 --> 00:30:56.819 And there are you're going to hit a threshold 00:30:56.819 --> 00:30:59.859 where the dog's like, oh, my God, like right 00:30:59.859 --> 00:31:02.700 by now. Right. Yeah. And you're going to have 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:05.759 to just be like, just a little more, buddy. Even 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:08.440 if it's not beautiful, even if it's a little 00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:12.059 flat or it's not perfect, it's OK. Just keep 00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:14.900 going. And then the jackpot. And the dog will 00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:19.980 literally learn that the absence of the reinforcer 00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:22.940 doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means keep 00:31:22.940 --> 00:31:27.460 going. Right. Right. And that's where building 00:31:27.460 --> 00:31:29.900 some of those little things that you were talking 00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:32.819 about, you know, using some motion, some little 00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:36.910 tricks or behaviors. Building in, like pairing 00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:40.309 those with your reinforcer and vent, that's really 00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:42.750 helpful for the dogs who start to get a little 00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:45.170 confused because then they're, you know, that's 00:31:45.170 --> 00:31:47.569 just telling them that, yes, you're right. And 00:31:47.569 --> 00:31:50.869 then you can delay delivering the actual reinforcer. 00:31:53.250 --> 00:31:56.269 You know, and I think what happens when people 00:31:56.269 --> 00:32:00.269 start working on this is they become very robotic 00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:04.089 when they're doing it. Like I did this, I did 00:32:04.089 --> 00:32:07.730 this at my camp. I purposely made them all put 00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:11.609 their reinforcers off their body because it forces 00:32:11.609 --> 00:32:20.829 you then, right, to consciously, I wanted them 00:32:20.829 --> 00:32:25.269 to make sure that they were putting in like a 00:32:25.269 --> 00:32:29.690 relationship piece into that reinforcer and reinforcement 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:34.769 event. So that it's not just mark feed, mark 00:32:34.769 --> 00:32:37.750 deliver, right? It's so important that you're 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:42.529 able to do that so that you can also take that 00:32:42.529 --> 00:32:44.710 into the ring. Like when I release my dog in 00:32:44.710 --> 00:32:47.869 the ring, sometimes I do exactly what I do in 00:32:47.869 --> 00:32:52.789 training. I go, wow, oh my gosh, that was so 00:32:52.789 --> 00:32:58.049 good. Wow. And then my dog's like, oh. great 00:32:58.049 --> 00:33:02.089 sometimes in training I I do that and sometimes 00:33:02.089 --> 00:33:07.109 I feed it and sometimes I don't so I put that 00:33:07.109 --> 00:33:10.029 in a little bit as sometimes you may get a reward 00:33:10.029 --> 00:33:13.829 for that particular thing we just did or sometimes 00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:16.069 that it doesn't so that I'm able to put that 00:33:16.069 --> 00:33:20.670 into the ring um I hope that's clear did I explain 00:33:20.670 --> 00:33:23.029 yeah it is and then we should say too because 00:33:23.029 --> 00:33:26.880 people get a little stuck in Like, you know, 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.160 cause it's been drilled into the us that like, 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:33.579 if I say yes, I now owe the dog a cookie. Right. 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:36.200 Cause that's the definition of yes means you're 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.799 right. The exercise is done. You're getting a 00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:42.119 cookie. Whereas good means you're right. You're 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:44.279 correct. Keep going. You're not getting a cookie. 00:33:44.380 --> 00:33:48.400 Right. So we developed like a different cue. 00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:53.339 That means you might be getting a cookie. You 00:33:53.339 --> 00:33:56.779 might not. You might be getting a game. You might 00:33:56.779 --> 00:34:00.279 not. Yeah. You might, you know, you don't, you 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.839 might be getting a high value reinforcer, a low 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:09.519 value reinforcer, nothing motion game. We, you 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.039 don't know. And we're going to mix it up all 00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:17.480 the time. So now we're not lying. Right. But 00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:20.559 it's an exciting cue once it's developed because 00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:23.699 it's really, truly a jackpot cue in the sense 00:34:23.699 --> 00:34:26.760 of gambling, which is it's a variable reinforcer 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:28.639 in and of itself because it's unpredictable. 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.460 The dog never knows what it's going to get. Yeah. 00:34:32.260 --> 00:34:37.159 So we'll say, wow, you use that same wow or do 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.219 you use a different word? Yeah, he's wow. So 00:34:40.219 --> 00:34:43.820 say wow. And I'll be like, wow, that was super, 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.730 buddy. And sometimes that's all you get. Sometimes 00:34:46.730 --> 00:34:50.710 I say, wow, super. And you'll get a cookie. Sometimes 00:34:50.710 --> 00:34:53.570 I'll say, wow. And you'll get a toy. Sometimes 00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:55.809 I'll say, wow. And I'll do a motion game and 00:34:55.809 --> 00:34:59.750 we keep going. And then you can absolutely use 00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:02.230 that in the ring because you're not lying to 00:35:02.230 --> 00:35:04.829 the dog and saying you're definitely getting 00:35:04.829 --> 00:35:09.489 a cookie because they're not. Right. Exactly. 00:35:09.710 --> 00:35:12.650 And there was, you know, and in developing that. 00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:18.550 And that had to be worked out with Ever for sure 00:35:18.550 --> 00:35:21.769 because, you know, I would do wow sometimes and 00:35:21.769 --> 00:35:23.849 then she would get her reinforcer. And then when 00:35:23.849 --> 00:35:26.570 I started putting it on a variable, like, you 00:35:26.570 --> 00:35:29.730 know, sometimes I would wow her after she did 00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:33.500 the thing. And then I would be like. with me 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:36.780 like we're going to our next exercise and maybe 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.760 as we were just about to set up for the next 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:42.480 exercise then we would go and get her reinforcer 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.039 like so I that's how I started to build it in 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.599 but there were times I remember when I was starting 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:50.420 that I would do the wow and then I would be like 00:35:50.420 --> 00:35:52.960 with me and I could literally see the look on 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:56.219 her face like in her head she's like dude um 00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:00.659 doesn't wow mean like where's my reinforcer so 00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:04.280 it was a work in progress to work through that 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.719 and when she did that I you know I just kept 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.480 going and smiling good girl that a girl and then 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:16.900 she slowly figured out that the wow is very you 00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:20.710 know it could be wow after the second exercise. 00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:23.230 And then we just continue and do everything. 00:36:23.710 --> 00:36:26.849 Like if I'm just doing a run through and then 00:36:26.849 --> 00:36:29.269 we get out of the ring and I give her her jackpot 00:36:29.269 --> 00:36:33.250 or it can be wow. And we go transition to the 00:36:33.250 --> 00:36:35.429 next exercise in the middle of that transition. 00:36:35.809 --> 00:36:38.269 I give her her reinforcer. So that's how it was 00:36:38.269 --> 00:36:40.570 developed, but it did take some time. She did 00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:44.269 have some, you know, feelings about it for sure. 00:36:44.409 --> 00:36:49.349 And in fact, this weekend. I felt this was a 00:36:49.349 --> 00:36:56.269 thing with that. It was in my last class after, 00:36:56.349 --> 00:36:58.269 I can't remember. It was such a blur, all the 00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:00.670 freaking stuff we did. It was after some exercise 00:37:00.670 --> 00:37:04.769 and I went, wow, what a good girl. And then I 00:37:04.769 --> 00:37:08.630 went to my next exercise and just as I was about 00:37:08.630 --> 00:37:13.889 to set up, she barked at me like pissed, like, 00:37:14.030 --> 00:37:17.539 dude. Wait, like she gave it to me in the ring. 00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:21.079 Like I, it was like shocking to see it. Like, 00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:24.219 because instead of her actually going down and 00:37:24.219 --> 00:37:26.420 getting like worried and stuff, she was like 00:37:26.420 --> 00:37:32.019 pushy, like bitch deliver. It was so funny. Yeah. 00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:35.440 So I think the key is it, like anything else, 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:38.260 I think people give up on these things too quickly. 00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:43.099 Right. Like they start them. The minute the dog 00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:46.420 looks worried, confused, upset, they're like, 00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:48.679 oh, this isn't working. They don't know. Again, 00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:52.099 they don't know what to do. And then they just 00:37:52.099 --> 00:37:55.860 go right back to to feeding. Right. Or toy. Yeah. 00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.699 Right. So, again, it's you just probably haven't 00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:02.340 done it long enough. Like you just need to keep 00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:05.380 working on it. You just need to be consistent. 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.639 Totally. So that and your dog will learn it. 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:13.010 It will learn. the new rules, the new games, 00:38:13.210 --> 00:38:17.349 you just have to teach them. And it, you know, 00:38:17.349 --> 00:38:23.070 if your dog is older and has a long reinforcement 00:38:23.070 --> 00:38:26.889 history of it being a certain way, it's not impossible. 00:38:27.090 --> 00:38:29.690 You can absolutely teach it to them, but you 00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:32.329 have to be realistic. Like, of course, your dog, 00:38:32.369 --> 00:38:36.710 you've built in an expectation. Your dog can 00:38:36.710 --> 00:38:39.730 learn the new rules, but you have to invest the 00:38:39.730 --> 00:38:42.710 time into it and you have to kind of stay, you 00:38:42.710 --> 00:38:47.670 know, yeah, buckle up and don't bail, you know, 00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:55.289 just don't be a bailer. Don't be a weirdo. Don't 00:38:55.289 --> 00:38:59.530 be a bailer. Just work your dog through it, you 00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:02.789 know, and they will figure it out. Like, again, 00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:07.769 they're smart. you know, but we've taught them 00:39:07.769 --> 00:39:13.789 certain patterns. So the other thing is, and 00:39:13.789 --> 00:39:17.469 this is extremely hard for humans because we're 00:39:17.469 --> 00:39:21.650 built on our whole lives. This is actually pretty 00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:24.070 funny. I read this book this one time, right? 00:39:24.210 --> 00:39:26.750 And like humans, we think we're so smart and 00:39:26.750 --> 00:39:33.409 clever and we're so superior. And I read this 00:39:33.409 --> 00:39:36.889 book and it's like, Yeah, no, you're making hardly 00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:39.530 any decisions all day. You're just doing one 00:39:39.530 --> 00:39:41.809 habit after the other, after the other. I'm like, 00:39:41.849 --> 00:39:45.809 what? And it's like, well, think about it. You 00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:48.250 don't even think about it because you get out 00:39:48.250 --> 00:39:51.989 of bed, you go to the bathroom, you go downstairs, 00:39:52.309 --> 00:39:55.309 you turn on your coffee, you do that, like you 00:39:55.309 --> 00:39:58.269 do, you brush your teeth, you do a whole set 00:39:58.269 --> 00:40:02.849 of routines. Every day, every day. Like I have 00:40:02.849 --> 00:40:05.909 a routine even about like at hotels, like how 00:40:05.909 --> 00:40:09.690 I unpack. The dog's water dish is always in the 00:40:09.690 --> 00:40:14.889 bathroom. Like it's all a bunch of habits. So 00:40:14.889 --> 00:40:19.050 certain things in dog training, it's good to 00:40:19.050 --> 00:40:22.090 have habits. So it's good to know your footwork 00:40:22.090 --> 00:40:24.329 by heart because now you don't have to think 00:40:24.329 --> 00:40:27.039 about it. It's good to know. how you're going 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:28.940 to respond to errors, because then you could 00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:31.239 just execute it. You don't have to think about 00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:35.760 it. But the problem with is we develop reinforcement 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:39.860 habits and dogs pick up on those patterns very 00:40:39.860 --> 00:40:44.579 quickly. So every time you halt, you feed your 00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:48.380 dog. So your dog expects a cookie at whenever 00:40:48.380 --> 00:40:52.360 you halt. It never expects a cookie on the about 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:56.420 turn. So big surprise, it doesn't really pay 00:40:56.420 --> 00:41:00.400 attention on the about turn. Why should it? Nothing 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.360 ever happens till you halt anyway. So what's 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.340 the point, right? And so it all becomes very 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:12.340 predictable. And then when you change that pattern, 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:14.380 like you go in the ring and there's no reinforcement, 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:18.440 again, dog is completely and utterly confused. 00:41:19.389 --> 00:41:23.090 So by definition, variable reinforcement means 00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:27.489 the dog never knows when that reinforcer cookie 00:41:27.489 --> 00:41:31.050 toy is going to come. Never. Which means you 00:41:31.050 --> 00:41:35.809 must be your habit must be to be unpredictable. 00:41:36.190 --> 00:41:40.250 Right. And that's hard because you actually have 00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:43.590 to be aware of what how much you're reinforcing 00:41:43.590 --> 00:41:49.769 where when. In order to be. to not be predictable. 00:41:49.949 --> 00:41:54.010 So for sure, because I'm always paying attention 00:41:54.010 --> 00:41:58.010 to what my dogs are saying, when my dog looks 00:41:58.010 --> 00:42:01.010 at me and says, cookie now, right? That's like 00:42:01.010 --> 00:42:04.750 a bell going off in my head. Like, oh, lady, 00:42:04.909 --> 00:42:09.550 clearly you're feeding here way too much. And 00:42:09.550 --> 00:42:12.409 I will never, and I will absolutely not feed 00:42:12.409 --> 00:42:15.250 there. I will go a little further than mark and 00:42:15.250 --> 00:42:20.360 feed, right? If I mark and feed and my dog looks 00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:26.179 shocked like in the middle of a normal, in the 00:42:26.179 --> 00:42:28.579 middle of an about turn, in the middle of a slow, 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:33.900 then that means you're almost never reinforcing 00:42:33.900 --> 00:42:36.780 there. So you should be reinforcing there more 00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:42.559 often. Right. So those are two like little, you 00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:47.010 know, ways you can. jog your brain to say, Oh 00:42:47.010 --> 00:42:50.269 shoot, I better mix this up. Right. If my dog 00:42:50.269 --> 00:42:54.409 never looks surprised, that's a good thing. Right. 00:42:54.489 --> 00:42:58.769 Because it means like I'm reinforcing in different 00:42:58.769 --> 00:43:01.590 spots all the time. So my dog has no expectation 00:43:01.590 --> 00:43:04.269 one way or the other. It just knows that it could 00:43:04.269 --> 00:43:09.150 come at any time. Right. That's key that it can 00:43:09.150 --> 00:43:12.519 come at any time. Right. Which means you have 00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:14.619 to be super aware of what you're doing with your 00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:16.920 own body, too, because a lot of people are reaching 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:19.300 for food. They're in their pockets. They're developing 00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:21.059 cue systems that they don't even know they're 00:43:21.059 --> 00:43:24.300 doing. So that's where you have to be really 00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:30.440 careful that you're not, you know, inadvertently 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:34.320 attaching stuff to your reinforcing event so 00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.480 that the dogs are looking for that all the time. 00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.500 That's just clean handling stuff, right? Yeah, 00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:45.179 well, if they're always saying yes as their hand 00:43:45.179 --> 00:43:48.320 is in their pocket, the dog's no longer listening 00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:51.699 for the word. It's now hyper -focused on your 00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:55.280 hand because it says when the hand moves to the 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.280 pocket, that's my marker. So now instead of your 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:02.659 dog paying attention to looking at your face 00:44:02.659 --> 00:44:06.239 or looking at whatever or thinking about what 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:10.300 it's supposed to be doing, your dog's distracted. 00:44:10.989 --> 00:44:14.150 It's looking for your hand because is the hand 00:44:14.150 --> 00:44:16.690 moving now? Is the hand moving now? Is the hand 00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:20.710 moving now? Right. So that's why it's so important 00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:24.190 to be clean and why we're constantly saying mark, 00:44:24.389 --> 00:44:29.530 wait, then reach for the reinforcer so that you 00:44:29.530 --> 00:44:33.610 separate them out. So the dog learns that it's 00:44:33.610 --> 00:44:38.670 listening for the click or the word that that's 00:44:38.670 --> 00:44:42.989 what's important. And then your handling, you 00:44:42.989 --> 00:44:45.449 know, so your handling has to be really clean 00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:49.050 with that. And the thing, so the thing with variable 00:44:49.050 --> 00:44:54.250 two is I'm also varying session to session. So 00:44:54.250 --> 00:45:00.510 let's say, you know, tomorrow I might give a 00:45:00.510 --> 00:45:02.949 medium amount of reinforcement and training. 00:45:03.030 --> 00:45:05.750 Thursday, I'm going to give a very low amount 00:45:05.750 --> 00:45:10.269 of reinforcement and training. Um, Friday I might 00:45:10.269 --> 00:45:14.610 give high Saturday low. So even day to day, like 00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:17.349 it's never the same, right? Like you don't know 00:45:17.349 --> 00:45:19.829 is today a day where you're going to get a higher 00:45:19.829 --> 00:45:23.030 rate of reinforcement or a lower rate. Like, 00:45:23.070 --> 00:45:25.710 and you can't always want, I should go have, 00:45:25.829 --> 00:45:28.510 I meant to mention this with chaining is when 00:45:28.510 --> 00:45:30.730 people start chaining, they all of a sudden they're 00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:33.309 doing it every day. And every day they're doing 00:45:33.309 --> 00:45:35.530 a long chain. And every day the dog's getting 00:45:35.530 --> 00:45:38.630 a very low rate of reinforcement. Well, over 00:45:38.630 --> 00:45:42.650 time, that's just going to be demoralizing. Right. 00:45:42.809 --> 00:45:46.550 So everything, it has to change. It has to be 00:45:46.550 --> 00:45:51.170 different. But within your sessions, even if 00:45:51.170 --> 00:45:54.250 whether I'm giving a higher or lower rate of 00:45:54.250 --> 00:45:58.090 reinforcement on that day, I'm still varying 00:45:58.090 --> 00:46:02.630 where. I'm marking and feeding and like, for 00:46:02.630 --> 00:46:06.429 sure. I'm like never doing it after exercise 00:46:06.429 --> 00:46:09.869 finished. Cause that's so predictable. Right. 00:46:10.429 --> 00:46:14.289 Right. I can do it and halfway in the middle 00:46:14.289 --> 00:46:17.090 of a transition, I can set my dog up for an exercise 00:46:17.090 --> 00:46:20.289 and then just not do the exercise and mark and 00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:22.469 reinforce. I can stop in the middle of an exercise. 00:46:23.429 --> 00:46:28.130 Like, and you just want to keep mixing it up. 00:46:28.769 --> 00:46:32.460 Right. And being conscious of it. Yeah. I think 00:46:32.460 --> 00:46:35.659 there are apps. I think I said to people, because 00:46:35.659 --> 00:46:37.639 for some people, you know, there's so much they're 00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:41.619 thinking about already. I'm sure there's an app 00:46:41.619 --> 00:46:45.039 or you could go on YouTube and find something 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:51.579 that makes a tone on a varied schedule. Yeah. 00:46:51.619 --> 00:46:56.340 So when you hear the tone, that's when you mark. 00:46:57.300 --> 00:47:00.460 Right. Which can be very helpful for people, 00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:05.340 for sure. Yes, because I think, you know, there's 00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:09.719 so much to think about that if they also have 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:11.679 to think about that. And I think that's where, 00:47:11.699 --> 00:47:13.760 too, it falls by the wayside, right? Because 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.840 they're thinking about their handling and the 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:18.219 dog and is the dog learning? Am I giving them 00:47:18.219 --> 00:47:22.059 information? And then it's just so much easier 00:47:22.059 --> 00:47:26.260 to just go click, cheat, click, cheat. Right. 00:47:27.469 --> 00:47:30.989 So you just have to, you just have to create 00:47:30.989 --> 00:47:34.250 better habits, but it's better off to do it. 00:47:35.570 --> 00:47:39.210 You know, the sooner you do it, the better, the 00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:41.789 easier it'll be on the dog. Just like, you know, 00:47:41.789 --> 00:47:45.750 with my student now with this puppy and my training 00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:49.929 partner too, like with her young dog, like she 00:47:49.929 --> 00:47:53.730 just never, the dog never had a high rate of 00:47:53.730 --> 00:47:57.769 reinforcement in its training. And it was just 00:47:57.769 --> 00:48:01.130 okay with that. Like, because it just didn't 00:48:01.130 --> 00:48:06.690 know any better. Right. So if we're just mindful 00:48:06.690 --> 00:48:10.369 of that, you know, the sooner we start, obviously 00:48:10.369 --> 00:48:12.769 the better it is. Doesn't mean you can't, it's, 00:48:12.809 --> 00:48:16.010 you can't quote unquote fix it. It's just going 00:48:16.010 --> 00:48:18.230 to take a little longer for your dog to learn 00:48:18.230 --> 00:48:25.949 it. But the sooner you start. reducing reinforcement 00:48:25.949 --> 00:48:29.969 and just really being mindful about it, the better 00:48:29.969 --> 00:48:31.929 off you're going to be. I think a lot of people 00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:36.010 also too, don't really think about fading reinforcement 00:48:36.010 --> 00:48:39.150 until they're ready to go in the ring. Right. 00:48:39.289 --> 00:48:43.309 Right. That's a big one. I'll have a trial in 00:48:43.309 --> 00:48:45.730 three weeks. I should reduce my reinforcement. 00:48:47.670 --> 00:48:52.889 Not sure that's going to work out too well. Right. 00:48:53.030 --> 00:48:57.539 Right. So you want to be thinking about that 00:48:57.539 --> 00:49:01.239 pretty much right out of the gate. Sooner than 00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:06.699 later. Yeah. Like sooner. And yeah. And way before 00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:09.039 you're thinking about going in the ring. Right. 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:16.320 Way before that. Right. Super important. Super 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:20.219 important. So I think that I think we covered. 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.880 I think that. Yeah. I think that's good. That's 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:29.079 a lot of info. Yeah, and you can always go on 00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:33.000 our Facebook page when this episode comes out. 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:36.980 And if you have questions or who knows, maybe 00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:39.579 we missed something or forgot something or we're 00:49:39.579 --> 00:49:42.860 unclear about something, we're happy to talk 00:49:42.860 --> 00:49:45.920 about that. Yeah, definitely. Just let us know. 00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:50.699 Just let us know. All right. Less cookies. Less 00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:56.750 cookies, everybody. Cookie detox. Yeah. Cookie 00:49:56.750 --> 00:50:06.110 and toy detox. Put the cookies down. Love it. 00:50:07.190 --> 00:50:10.369 All right. Thanks everybody. Happy training.