WEBVTT 00:00:11.050 --> 00:00:13.289 Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection 00:00:13.289 --> 00:00:16.530 podcast. Today, Lori and I are going to start 00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:21.309 a series on reducing reinforcement. And I say 00:00:21.309 --> 00:00:24.489 start a series because there's no way we can 00:00:24.489 --> 00:00:27.390 cover it all in one episode unless the episode's 00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:33.130 like three hours. True. So I think we should 00:00:33.130 --> 00:00:37.990 just start by clarifying reinforcement in the 00:00:37.990 --> 00:00:41.299 sense that I don't. people, I don't think most 00:00:41.299 --> 00:00:45.799 people really think about reinforcement very 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:51.140 carefully and even use it mindfully to begin 00:00:51.140 --> 00:00:54.780 with, nevermind reducing it. Right. So for example, 00:00:54.960 --> 00:01:01.799 people, so I think of reinforcement as a tool 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:07.430 and as information and I use different. types 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:11.530 of reinforcement for different things, right? 00:01:11.650 --> 00:01:14.790 So if I want my dog to really think about something 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:17.469 and problem solve, I'm not going to tug and tug 00:01:17.469 --> 00:01:21.230 and tug until my dog's eyes are popping out of 00:01:21.230 --> 00:01:24.109 its head and then go now solve this problem because 00:01:24.109 --> 00:01:27.450 I just use the reinforcer to raise the dog's 00:01:27.450 --> 00:01:30.849 arousal and that's not optimal. So I don't even 00:01:30.849 --> 00:01:33.370 think, I think people just like either click 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:37.989 cookie or click toy. And they're not even really 00:01:37.989 --> 00:01:41.530 thinking like, what is the value of this reinforcer? 00:01:41.549 --> 00:01:44.150 Can I make this cookie more or less valuable? 00:01:44.349 --> 00:01:47.150 Like, what am I using it for? What's the point 00:01:47.150 --> 00:01:50.790 of this? And like, the other part is you're just 00:01:50.790 --> 00:01:54.670 mindfully giving cookies all the time, like cookie, 00:01:54.750 --> 00:01:58.549 cookie, cookie, cookie. And then I'm like, wait, 00:01:58.689 --> 00:02:02.760 what was that cookie even for? you like if you 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.760 toss a reset cookie and the dog comes back and 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.060 goes into heel position and it knows heel position 00:02:08.060 --> 00:02:10.139 really well and you're giving another cookie 00:02:10.139 --> 00:02:14.159 what's that cookie for for coming back to heel 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:17.900 position at what point should the dog just be 00:02:17.900 --> 00:02:21.139 doing that out of habit and it shouldn't even 00:02:21.139 --> 00:02:24.379 get a cookie anymore and then you ask the dog 00:02:24.379 --> 00:02:27.379 for one behavior and give another cookie and 00:02:27.379 --> 00:02:29.919 then toss another reset cookie and the dog comes 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.340 back and you give another cookie now you just 00:02:32.340 --> 00:02:38.039 gave five cookies in like 20 seconds how is your 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:43.060 dog gonna work in the ring or whatever sport 00:02:43.060 --> 00:02:45.740 you're at how is your dog gonna be able to do 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:54.250 that yeah Yeah, and I think that that's a big 00:02:54.250 --> 00:03:02.530 thing. People aren't mindfully keeping that in 00:03:02.530 --> 00:03:07.129 their head that at the end of the day, eventually 00:03:07.129 --> 00:03:10.509 my dog needs to work without reinforcement for 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:15.699 X amount of time in a hard. harder environment, 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:19.360 right? Like that's, I think, where people are 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.560 like, they're just, they're in, I think they're 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:26.479 in the moment with their dogs, not thinking about 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:30.879 the end picture and the end goal with reinforcers 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:38.379 in mind. I also think that there's a huge emotional 00:03:38.379 --> 00:03:43.639 component attached to People just giving the 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:48.139 reinforcer because it makes them feel good. They 00:03:48.139 --> 00:03:52.919 want to make their dogs feel good. So things 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:56.979 are just being handed out without any sort of 00:03:56.979 --> 00:04:02.840 like mindful structure to it at all. and it's 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.580 used as a crutch like or as a bribe right like 00:04:06.580 --> 00:04:09.180 you want to think to yourself is this a crutch 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:13.219 or is it a bribe or is it information right so 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:16.060 the second the dog struggles or the second the 00:04:16.060 --> 00:04:21.019 handler's unsure of how to fix something or help 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:24.379 the dog or the dog looks unsure or the dog you 00:04:24.379 --> 00:04:27.579 know looks distracted they grab the cookie and 00:04:27.579 --> 00:04:30.220 then instantly guess what the dog looks better 00:04:30.220 --> 00:04:33.279 and then We feel better. And then we're like, 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:37.060 this is how I want the dog to look. But no thought 00:04:37.060 --> 00:04:40.339 is even going behind that. It's like this instinctive 00:04:40.339 --> 00:04:45.259 thing, right? Well, that's emotion. Yeah, it 00:04:45.259 --> 00:04:48.279 is. And I think what happens is it's exactly 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:51.319 that. Like it's that emotional component, especially. 00:04:53.780 --> 00:04:57.040 especially when others are watching. Like, I 00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.800 find this all the time, like, because I run a 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.540 lot of matches at my facility, right? And we 00:05:02.540 --> 00:05:04.720 go to a lot of matches. We see it. So something 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:07.660 starts to unravel. The dog is making mistakes 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:10.319 or the dog is starting to, you know, it's starting 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:14.899 to just unravel in whatever way. And, you know, 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:17.160 all of a sudden the person just. dips into their 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:19.319 pockets and the cookies come out, like whether 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.160 they're just putting a cookie on the dog's face 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:23.680 or whatever. And then they just keep going and 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.300 doing the thing to get to the end. And I will 00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:32.639 ask them, I'll say, but don't forget, you need 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:36.939 to go, if your goal is to trial, remember you 00:05:36.939 --> 00:05:40.180 can't have cookies in the ring. That is the simple 00:05:40.180 --> 00:05:43.839 statement I say to them. And they go, oh yeah, 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:49.160 you're right. Like they forget. Well, they forget, 00:05:49.420 --> 00:05:53.360 but I also, I also think two other things happening. 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:57.240 One is if they don't immediately know how to 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.720 fix it, right. Or know the answer or know what 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:02.759 to do. They just panic and grab a cookie rather 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:07.040 than say, hold on, let me, or let me use the 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.300 cookie right now, but I know I'm doing it and 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:13.800 I know why, but I'm going to go home. And I'm 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:17.519 going to figure out for next time what I could 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.459 do instead. Right. I'm going to look for that 00:06:20.459 --> 00:06:23.579 solution. But they're not doing that. They're 00:06:23.579 --> 00:06:26.879 just grabbing the cookie. It's band -aiding the 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.740 problem. And off they go. And for a lot of people, 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:35.839 they don't know, you know, what the steps are 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:39.980 maybe. It's that whole mindfulness thing, right? 00:06:40.060 --> 00:06:42.120 And that's where it all starts, right? Like you 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:47.240 have to say, okay, like what I've had students 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.560 do is take a notebook, put it on a table next 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:53.800 to the cookies. Cookies can't be on your body. 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.180 And every time you go to give a cookie, write 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:00.060 down that you gave a cookie and write down why, 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:04.040 right? Because something has to force you to 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:08.149 think. first, before you can even reduce it, 00:07:08.230 --> 00:07:13.209 is why am I giving this reinforcer? What am I 00:07:13.209 --> 00:07:17.170 trying to achieve with it? Like, what is my goal? 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:20.509 What am I trying to accomplish? And so, for example, 00:07:20.670 --> 00:07:24.569 if I'm working on fine -tuning fronts, then guess 00:07:24.569 --> 00:07:27.899 what? Cookies are in my mouth. I'm giving a very 00:07:27.899 --> 00:07:30.959 high rate of reinforcement and I'm very conscious 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.180 that I'm doing it and I'm doing it for a reason. 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:36.720 Right. Because I'm working on a detail. But the 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.500 next day or in another situation, nothing is 00:07:40.500 --> 00:07:45.120 on my body. No cookie, no toy. I'm very mindfully 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:49.939 doing that. And every reinforcer I give, like 00:07:49.939 --> 00:07:53.379 I'm acutely aware that I am giving it and that 00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:56.769 there's a reason why. And I'm always thinking 00:07:56.769 --> 00:08:00.129 in the back of my head, even from when I have 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:03.689 a little tiny little puppy, that there's going 00:08:03.689 --> 00:08:07.490 to come a day where my dog has to work for nine 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:11.850 continuous minutes under extremely difficult 00:08:11.850 --> 00:08:16.029 conditions for zero reinforcer. Right. Right. 00:08:16.110 --> 00:08:22.769 And that's a huge piece that people. are not 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:25.009 they don't really think about it until they're 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:29.189 in the ring and it all falls apart yeah that's 00:08:29.189 --> 00:08:31.990 exactly what happens and then they and then they 00:08:31.990 --> 00:08:35.450 do that that realization comes and they go it's 00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:38.429 they say it all the time it's because i don't 00:08:38.429 --> 00:08:42.129 have food on me And like you just answered your 00:08:42.129 --> 00:08:44.649 own question, you know, like you just solved 00:08:44.649 --> 00:08:47.049 your own problem because it's a reinforcement 00:08:47.049 --> 00:08:50.269 problem. Because, you know, the dog has never 00:08:50.269 --> 00:08:54.929 learned to work without that constant rate of 00:08:54.929 --> 00:08:58.309 reinforcement being given to them. Yeah. And 00:08:58.309 --> 00:09:02.309 reinforcement gets a bad rap among in some ways 00:09:02.309 --> 00:09:07.730 because people like have developed this. I don't 00:09:07.730 --> 00:09:11.929 know. philosophy where it's like oh well the 00:09:11.929 --> 00:09:15.909 dog is only working when there's food as if it's 00:09:15.909 --> 00:09:20.169 the dog's fault as if the dog is lazy and the 00:09:20.169 --> 00:09:25.830 dog is only working when you have food on you 00:09:25.830 --> 00:09:29.070 and in the absence of the that the dog is quote 00:09:29.070 --> 00:09:31.529 -unquote blowing you off the dog doesn't want 00:09:31.529 --> 00:09:34.629 to do it the dog isn't motivated you're bribing 00:09:34.629 --> 00:09:38.309 the dog blah blah and That's not the case at 00:09:38.309 --> 00:09:43.529 all. The dog is just confused as shit because 00:09:43.529 --> 00:09:49.710 the reinforcement also becomes part of the whole 00:09:49.710 --> 00:09:54.909 picture. And think about it like none of us are 00:09:54.909 --> 00:10:00.500 working for free. So. If you go to work and you're 00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:03.639 getting paid your full salary, and one day you 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.200 come in and they're like, you're not getting 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.299 paid at all. You're just going to shrug your 00:10:09.299 --> 00:10:11.779 shoulders, go okay. And work the same amount. 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:16.379 Hell no. Well, hell is going to break loose, 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:19.179 but people never think of it like that. Right. 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:22.460 And then what happens is they, they turn around, 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:24.539 they get, they get like mad at the dog and be 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:27.879 like, well, you know what? we're not having cookies 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:31.299 at all anymore. No cookie. And I'm like, whoa, 00:10:31.580 --> 00:10:35.840 that's what they do. Like it's the dog's fault. 00:10:36.059 --> 00:10:39.519 And I'm like, no, no, no. And it's our fault 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:44.580 because we created an expectation, right? And 00:10:44.580 --> 00:10:48.679 we made it part of the whole process. Like I 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:53.460 can tell. I guarantee you, I could be like a 00:10:53.460 --> 00:10:56.799 circus act, right? Come train your dog and I 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.519 can tell you exactly when and where you give 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.559 your dog cookies. Because the dog is going to 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.980 say it. The dog clears day, goes, cookie now, 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.799 right? And I'm like, because that's where they 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:16.139 get fed every time, right? Cookie now, right? 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:19.649 And then the... When the dog's like only half 00:11:19.649 --> 00:11:22.850 paying attention, I'm like, I can tell that the 00:11:22.850 --> 00:11:28.210 dog never gets reinforced there because it doesn't 00:11:28.210 --> 00:11:31.929 expect it. It's like, yep, I never get fed in 00:11:31.929 --> 00:11:35.149 the middle of a healing pattern. So whatever, 00:11:35.389 --> 00:11:38.009 I'll just get through this part so I can get 00:11:38.009 --> 00:11:41.090 to the halt. And then as soon as you halt, the 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:50.639 dog's like, yay! It's so true. Because that's 00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:55.399 always where I get a cookie. And then you halt 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:58.299 in the ring. The dog goes, cookie now, right? 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.620 Gets no cookie. And the dog's a jerk. No, the 00:12:02.620 --> 00:12:08.139 dog's like, wait. Oh, something's wrong. What 00:12:08.139 --> 00:12:13.019 happened? Right? And that confusion. That concern, 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:15.740 then they start thinking they did something wrong. 00:12:15.820 --> 00:12:17.720 They don't understand what's happening. They're 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.860 very confused. And then all those ring behaviors 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:23.600 that we claim are quote -unquote ring stress, 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:28.940 it's just a dog being completely confused. Right. 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.860 Right. Yeah. And, you know, just to note, like 00:12:33.860 --> 00:12:38.399 reinforcement is always quote -unquote on the 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:42.190 table, right? We don't withhold reinforcement. 00:12:42.370 --> 00:12:46.990 It is available. It's just that after we teach 00:12:46.990 --> 00:12:50.470 behaviors where we, you know, you're using a 00:12:50.470 --> 00:12:54.549 lot of food to teach and. reinforce behaviors 00:12:54.549 --> 00:12:58.149 right once those behaviors become solid then 00:12:58.149 --> 00:13:01.269 that's where the shift needs to take place that 00:13:01.269 --> 00:13:05.629 mindfulness of keeping track and starting to 00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:09.269 put your reinforcement on a variable schedule 00:13:09.269 --> 00:13:13.190 right so going back to like reinforcements always 00:13:13.190 --> 00:13:16.269 that though before the variable reinforcement 00:13:16.269 --> 00:13:19.789 I think we should even go back because people 00:13:19.789 --> 00:13:23.649 aren't even good at working with the reinforcer 00:13:23.649 --> 00:13:27.889 not on their body yeah yeah you know what I'm 00:13:27.889 --> 00:13:34.090 saying like yeah absolutely which is like it's 00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:37.769 just a matter of moving it's just a matter of 00:13:37.769 --> 00:13:45.509 going to I it's just inconvenient right because 00:13:45.509 --> 00:13:49.690 if I because if I say yes and the cookie's right 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:52.720 on me I just get it out of my pocket. But if 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.980 it's on the table, I actually have to walk to 00:13:54.980 --> 00:13:58.940 the table. Right. Well, it's hard in the sense 00:13:58.940 --> 00:14:03.299 because there's a habit of these, of people constantly, 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.059 like I've got people who have come to me where 00:14:07.059 --> 00:14:10.080 like their hands are living in their pockets. 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.440 Like they're walking around with their hands 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:17.159 in their pockets. Like, like, so in that sense. 00:14:17.929 --> 00:14:19.830 I'm like, put all your food on the table. And 00:14:19.830 --> 00:14:22.169 they act like I just cut their arms off. Like 00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:26.470 what? They can't function. But that's like, that's 00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:28.350 what I'm saying. Like that gets really hard, 00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:32.070 but you're right. That's got to start. Discipline 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:35.950 yourself to do it. Right. Just like put the container 00:14:35.950 --> 00:14:38.610 on the table. Don't have it in your hand. Think 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:40.590 of it as like, oh, good. You're getting extra 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:44.240 steps in today. Right. Because. You're just going 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.879 to do the same work. Like I do this when I have 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.259 a puppy. I put the treat in a container on the 00:14:50.259 --> 00:14:53.820 table and I'm doing my stuff and I take a cookie 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:56.000 off the table and I hand the puppy a cookie. 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:58.620 So right out of the gate, I'm not saying I never 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:01.539 have food on me again, but my dog immediately 00:15:01.539 --> 00:15:07.779 is also exposed to. The fact that sometimes the 00:15:07.779 --> 00:15:11.139 food's not on me and it's over there and that's 00:15:11.139 --> 00:15:13.019 okay. It doesn't matter. You're still going to 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:18.539 get it. I just need to go over there to get the 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:22.600 food. What's nice about that too, just to sneak 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.000 this little piece in, is because what happens 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.120 a lot when the food's on the person is they are 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:34.340 just... literally just a PEZ dispenser. You know, 00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:36.799 they're just either, and if they mark, they're 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:38.620 just marking and feeding, marking and feeding. 00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:42.259 And what happens is I feel is like, then there's 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:45.879 an absence of like that relationship factor that 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:49.679 should be also put into the reinforcement event, 00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:53.139 whatever that may be. So having food off your 00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:57.909 body gives you that chance to be like, yes wow 00:15:57.909 --> 00:16:02.450 look at that you did incredible let's go get 00:16:02.450 --> 00:16:06.389 your reinforcer like I love that piece that now 00:16:06.389 --> 00:16:10.049 starts to there's a little bit of time to build 00:16:10.049 --> 00:16:13.070 that in um I just wanted to sneak that in there 00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:16.730 no that's super important no I mean that's super 00:16:16.730 --> 00:16:23.309 important and um Don't let the dog run to the 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:26.250 reinforcer without you. Right. Because this is 00:16:26.250 --> 00:16:28.929 something you should be doing together. You should 00:16:28.929 --> 00:16:32.929 become you should be you should always be part 00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:35.029 of the reinforcement rate event. Right. Like 00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:38.450 I have a little puppy. It's eight weeks old. 00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:43.279 It does something. I say yes. And I'm looking 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.419 right in its eyes and I say, yes. And like, my 00:16:46.419 --> 00:16:50.440 face is happy. And I'm like, that was really 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.519 good, buddy. Super job. And then I give the cookie. 00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:57.279 Like, I always insert myself in between that 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.580 anyway. But like, I can't, I almost can't not 00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:04.720 do it. This goes back to that whole thing. We 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.940 briefly talked about, or maybe more than briefly, 00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:12.369 but it's worth revisiting the whole mark. rush 00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:15.730 to get the reinforcer to the dog right which 00:17:15.730 --> 00:17:21.130 is like I don't know oh my god that's hard to 00:17:21.130 --> 00:17:23.589 break people of and I think food off your body 00:17:23.589 --> 00:17:25.910 significantly helps with that because people 00:17:25.910 --> 00:17:28.900 are like They're in their pocket, they already 00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:31.460 got the cookie out, and then they're saying yes. 00:17:31.579 --> 00:17:33.759 Now, first of all, all you're doing is making 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.819 the dog pay more attention to your hands than 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:39.460 anything else, because your hand is predicting 00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:43.559 the marker, not your voice, not the sound, right? 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.380 And you're in such a rush to get the dog the 00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:51.200 reinforcer that you're like... blending it all 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.839 together like it's just a big murky mess and 00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.799 you're not adding your personality into it and 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.859 your praise and the relationship that's what 00:18:03.859 --> 00:18:06.599 you can take in the ring like you're not taking 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.880 the cookie or the toy in the ring but the whole 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:14.039 thing about like it's so crazy it's one of the 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.900 hardest things to teach people is to separate 00:18:16.900 --> 00:18:24.390 the marker oh gosh from the reinforcer yeah it 00:18:24.390 --> 00:18:27.309 is i just and i just put a workshop up on my 00:18:27.309 --> 00:18:29.869 thing for that because i'm like we're doing a 00:18:29.869 --> 00:18:32.609 workshop because we need to carve that out and 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:35.730 single it out so people can just work on that 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:41.769 for two hours it's a thing it's our only way 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:45.230 of communicating what we want and we're messy 00:18:45.230 --> 00:18:48.849 about it and like every class I talk about it 00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:52.210 and like every time and then people say to me 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:54.609 oh I know my markers were off I gotta fix that 00:18:54.609 --> 00:19:00.089 just fix it like it's so important like it's 00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:05.910 the it's like like this is again if we just compared 00:19:05.910 --> 00:19:10.039 everything to human life like Everyone has a 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:13.599 person in their life, a human that they have 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.599 that they're in some sort of a relationship with 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.779 that they find maddening because the communication 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:23.220 is not the lines of communication are not wide 00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:27.539 open and clear. Right. And they get so frustrated 00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:30.400 with that person because the communication is 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.680 not good. And so we all know how that feels. 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:39.579 And. not only is the communication bad, it causes 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:42.259 frustration. It causes feelings of not being 00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:44.380 heard, not being respected. It causes a whole 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:47.619 big giant mess. And yet that's what we're doing 00:19:47.619 --> 00:19:50.660 to our dogs. Cause like the only thing that tells 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:53.259 the dogs if they're on the right track or not 00:19:53.259 --> 00:19:57.519 is our marker system. And we're a mess with that. 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.619 Makes me crazy. Makes me crazy too. Makes me 00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:05.819 crazy. So, but yeah, so food off your body is 00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:11.279 a great way to separate the marker from the reinforcer 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:18.920 and a really good place to insert praise and 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.220 you're like into the relationship. So since we're 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:26.180 here though, we should clarify that because what 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:29.279 some people, it doesn't matter what you think. 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:33.819 Is praise. It matters what the dog thinks, right? 00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:37.640 So if you're bending down and ruffling your dog's 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.079 face and your dog leaps away or turns their head 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.519 or backs up or drops their body or squints their 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:48.359 eyes. They don't like it. They don't like it. 00:20:54.039 --> 00:21:00.019 If you're faking it. they are truth these dogs 00:21:00.019 --> 00:21:04.599 know the truth so if you're like good job fighter 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:11.900 and your dog's gonna go dude whatever like stop 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:15.240 what is our favorite saying stop being a weirdo 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:20.759 right it has to be genuine Right. And it has 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.640 to be something the dog likes. Usually standing 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.279 up tall is always a good option. I know it's 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.079 counterintuitive. I know we want, we would like, 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.500 but I'm going to tell my students now, if you 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:33.839 have this overwhelming urge to bend down to your 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.519 dog, get a stuffed animal, hold it under your 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:42.359 arm because, because your dog doesn't like it. 00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:47.299 They don't like it. So stand up really tall. 00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:50.170 Get out of your dog space. I don't care if you 00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:52.890 have a tiny dog. They hate it even more. Stand 00:21:52.890 --> 00:21:57.029 up tall. Get out of their space. Genuinely praise 00:21:57.029 --> 00:22:00.849 the dog. Look at your dog. Analyze. Does my dog 00:22:00.849 --> 00:22:03.650 like the way I'm praising them? If not, let me 00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:07.069 try something different. Some dogs don't like 00:22:07.069 --> 00:22:09.509 the sound of our voices. I've done this with 00:22:09.509 --> 00:22:14.009 a ton of students now where they're not allowed 00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:17.339 to. praise verbally at all they just say the 00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:20.819 words in their head and the dogs can read it 00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:25.740 and the dogs are tons happier so you have to 00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.119 figure out what your dog likes and initially 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:30.299 your dog's not going to like anything because 00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:33.380 if all you've ever done is go click cookie click 00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:35.640 cookie click cookie or click toy click toy your 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:37.700 dog's going to go dude where's the cookie where's 00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:40.619 the toy and you're going to have to work extra 00:22:40.619 --> 00:22:43.720 hard and be super patient and maybe read the 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.420 direct the dog back towards you a few times because 00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:50.819 a dog might go oh cookies are over there hurry 00:22:50.819 --> 00:22:53.119 up and give me the cookie and I'm like no get 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:57.440 over here no we're gonna go together and I'm 00:22:57.440 --> 00:22:59.160 gonna tell you how good you are and if you go 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.180 to bolt over there I'm gonna get get back here 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:04.700 and if you're just patient and diligent it'll 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:09.119 come around right Right. And those dogs are going 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:11.740 to call you out like the ones that you've sort 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:16.900 of trained to just like give cookies after you 00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:19.539 clicked or marked or whatever, because they usually 00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:23.599 are just staring at your hand. They don't really 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.339 they're not engaging with you. Like I want my 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:29.099 dog when I go, yes, I want them to look me right 00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:33.440 in the eye and be like, really? That was so good, 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:36.609 buddy. Wow. Oh, Jen, they're jumping up and they're 00:23:36.609 --> 00:23:39.190 looking at me. Cause a lot of times too, they 00:23:39.190 --> 00:23:41.529 don't know where their reinforcers coming from. 00:23:41.609 --> 00:23:43.630 They don't know if it's on me. They don't know 00:23:43.630 --> 00:23:45.650 if it's over on the table. It could, and that 00:23:45.650 --> 00:23:48.029 could be the thing. Like it could be on me. It 00:23:48.029 --> 00:23:50.950 could also be on the table. It could also be 00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:53.109 on the floor somewhere. Like they don't know 00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:57.630 where that's coming from. So that gets built 00:23:57.630 --> 00:24:00.369 in too. So then that kind of makes them stay 00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:03.750 with me. They're still engaged with me. They 00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:06.130 think it's super fun. They think that is like, 00:24:06.230 --> 00:24:09.230 they just think that's like really fun until 00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:12.170 I say like, whatever it is, how they're going 00:24:12.170 --> 00:24:14.930 to get their reinforcer. Well, and that's really 00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:19.750 key too, because the thing that's most rewarding 00:24:19.750 --> 00:24:24.000 for them is that dopamine rush they get. in the 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:29.859 moments before the food or the toy. So if you're 00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:32.619 shoveling it in their mouth, you're taking that 00:24:32.619 --> 00:24:37.079 away, right? It's that anticipation of it coming 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:42.140 that releases all those chemicals that feels 00:24:42.140 --> 00:24:45.619 really good. So you're actually getting way more 00:24:45.619 --> 00:24:52.670 out of your reinforcer if you delay it. than 00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:55.230 if you give it immediately right so if you're 00:24:55.230 --> 00:24:58.650 like yes and the food's in their mouth it there's 00:24:58.650 --> 00:25:01.710 no time for it at all but if you're like yes 00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:05.690 and you're praising and they're like oh you know 00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:09.650 it's coming it's coming it's coming where's it 00:25:09.650 --> 00:25:16.150 coming from that is very exciting for them And 00:25:16.150 --> 00:25:19.710 that's what releases all those chemicals, right? 00:25:19.849 --> 00:25:24.190 And that's what happens between the marker and 00:25:24.190 --> 00:25:28.630 the actual delivery of the food or the toy. Right. 00:25:29.390 --> 00:25:32.910 And most people are missing out on that completely. 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:38.069 So you would start by just putting the food or 00:25:38.069 --> 00:25:43.130 the toy on a table, move away, have the dog do 00:25:43.130 --> 00:25:49.079 one or two behaviors. Mark. Praise. Go to the 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.240 table. Give them the cookie or the toy. Right. 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.619 That's how you start. Like if you've never done 00:25:54.619 --> 00:25:57.579 it. Right. That teaches the dog just because 00:25:57.579 --> 00:26:00.680 it's not on me doesn't mean the reinforcers. 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.579 It's like you said, it's still available. The 00:26:03.579 --> 00:26:07.079 reinforcements available. It's just not on my 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.640 body. Right. And so if you do that with some 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.809 tricks, the dog quickly figures that out. And 00:26:14.809 --> 00:26:19.609 then you can carry it over into your actual training. 00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:22.589 Just be aware, like I mentioned earlier, like 00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:27.369 initially they may then look to the table or 00:26:27.369 --> 00:26:29.509 go run to the table or wherever you have the 00:26:29.509 --> 00:26:31.710 reinforcer and you just have to work them through 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:36.710 that. Yeah. Yeah. So then I think the next step 00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:41.200 is you have to be asking yourself like. why am 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:43.759 I giving this cookie? Does my dog really need 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.579 it? Right. Cause at some point, at least for 00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:51.000 sure, certain foundation behaviors should just 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.819 become habits and they should be so ingrained 00:26:54.819 --> 00:26:59.359 that they like, I never for it's been years, 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.039 literally many, many, many, many, many years 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.180 since either of my dogs have gotten a cookie 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:10.670 for getting into heel position. Like ever. Right. 00:27:10.750 --> 00:27:21.490 You know, like ever. So that doesn't need a cookie. 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:27.950 It's just ingrained. Right. So at some point 00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:31.849 you have to say, all right, this is a behavior 00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:35.660 my dog does all the time. And that behavior should 00:27:35.660 --> 00:27:38.799 sort of be fun, right? Like if you make that 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:44.619 be, so for my dogs, tricks, right? Everybody's 00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:47.180 dogs loves tricks and thinks they're fun. Why 00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:49.440 do dogs think tricks are fun? Because we think 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.140 they're fun. There's no pressure behind it. So 00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:56.400 if you make things like getting into heel position 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.680 a trick. Front finishes a trick, sit down, stand, 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:03.920 backing up in those positions a trick, hold a 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.339 trick. If you make all these things just a silly 00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:10.640 pet trick, then your dog's going to happily do 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.099 it. And it's not even going to need to be reinforced 00:28:13.099 --> 00:28:18.279 because it's self -reinforcing. Right. Super 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:24.900 important. Yeah. So you want to. say to yourself 00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:29.160 like you know why am I giving this cookie or 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:33.880 this tug does my dog need it and maybe it does 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.079 and then go ahead and do it but maybe it doesn't 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:41.880 and maybe you can skip that um reinforcer and 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:46.460 just keep going maybe you could turn certain 00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:50.440 behaviors make them really fun so that your dog 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.309 thinks they're tricks maybe you can insert a 00:28:54.309 --> 00:28:57.109 trick and use it as a reinforcer right like I 00:28:57.109 --> 00:29:01.809 could do a little bit of healing and then go 00:29:01.809 --> 00:29:06.349 wow that was nice and do twist spin bounce and 00:29:06.349 --> 00:29:09.150 then that is the reinforcer for my dog because 00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:12.250 if my dog thinks those tricks are super fun and 00:29:12.250 --> 00:29:15.569 they make my dog super happy they can serve as 00:29:15.569 --> 00:29:19.930 a reinforcer sometimes absolutely and what's 00:29:19.930 --> 00:29:24.900 nice about that is some of that can be sort of 00:29:24.900 --> 00:29:27.720 brought into the ring with you too you know because 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:32.380 they just become self -reinforcing and then that 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.140 will make your dog feel better so in between 00:29:35.140 --> 00:29:39.359 exercises like I just did this last weekend you 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.539 know after whatever exercise I told her what 00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:47.009 a good girl I just put my legs apart I just signaled 00:29:47.009 --> 00:29:49.130 her to weave. Oh my gosh, she thought that was 00:29:49.130 --> 00:29:51.230 the best freaking thing in the whole world. It 00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:54.130 instantly like made her like jump in the air 00:29:54.130 --> 00:29:56.849 and off we went to the next thing. So that's 00:29:56.849 --> 00:29:59.849 really nice to integrate that as part of like 00:29:59.849 --> 00:30:02.890 your reinforcer because that, you know, those 00:30:02.890 --> 00:30:05.509 little bits you can kind of modify to bring right 00:30:05.509 --> 00:30:08.809 into the ring with you. Totally. Yeah. And a 00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:11.109 lot of people in things like rally, they're like, 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:13.549 well, how do we do that? We don't have transitions. 00:30:13.710 --> 00:30:17.490 The exercise doesn't end. Well, when I did rally 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:23.089 with zeal, the funny thing is most of the things 00:30:23.089 --> 00:30:28.509 the signs ask us to do, he thought was a trick. 00:30:28.809 --> 00:30:31.809 Like my dogs think backing up is a super fun 00:30:31.809 --> 00:30:35.049 trick. Right. So if I get to a sign and it's 00:30:35.049 --> 00:30:38.099 like three steps back. He doesn't feel like he 00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:42.920 just did like hard behaviors. He was like three 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:47.839 steps back. He thought he just did the most fun 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:50.099 trick and then we keep going. Right. And then 00:30:50.099 --> 00:30:53.539 it's down, sit, stand. And he's like, back up, 00:30:53.539 --> 00:30:57.200 down, sit, stand. Because to my dogs, those are 00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.859 tricks. So he's like, I just did another three 00:30:59.859 --> 00:31:03.759 tricks. So like almost every sign, like pivot. 00:31:04.329 --> 00:31:07.950 My dogs think I doodle with pivots all the time. 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:10.869 I use pivots as a reward. Like I'm using them 00:31:10.869 --> 00:31:13.210 now a little bit as a reward in the ring. Like, 00:31:13.210 --> 00:31:18.769 so it's just a matter of taking the time to make 00:31:18.769 --> 00:31:22.529 those little pieces so fun. And it's so easy. 00:31:22.589 --> 00:31:26.369 You could just do it in your house, right? That 00:31:26.369 --> 00:31:30.569 your dog thinks it's the most fun thing. And 00:31:30.569 --> 00:31:36.380 then it doesn't need. um, reinforcement. It, 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.779 it becomes the reinforcement, right? Which is 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:44.740 really nice. And the other thing I do is, um, 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.420 I don't, even at a very young age, like as soon 00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:52.960 as my puppy can do one hand touch reliably, I 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:55.779 immediately ask for two before he gets a cookie. 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.960 And then as soon as the puppy can do two, I ask 00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:03.759 for three. Before the dog gets a cookie. So I'm 00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:09.680 like, I'm always asking for more before the dog 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.720 gets a reinforcer for multiple reasons. One, 00:32:12.859 --> 00:32:16.980 just because I want more effort for less reinforcement, 00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:21.660 but also because the more effort the dog puts 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:25.480 in, the more animated and engaged the dog is. 00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:28.500 Yeah, I was just going to touch upon that, too. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.940 You know, the more animated, the more effort 00:32:30.940 --> 00:32:32.980 they put in, like, and that's the piece like 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:37.460 you kind of want to start to build in is, you 00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:40.819 know, the reinforcement will come, but they just 00:32:40.819 --> 00:32:44.680 don't know when or how. And you kind of want 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.160 to develop that like whole little piece where 00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:51.210 the dog's like, how about now? Okay, not now. 00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:53.289 Okay, I'm going to keep going. How about now? 00:32:53.490 --> 00:32:55.769 Like you kind of want to build that piece in. 00:32:56.289 --> 00:32:59.390 That's what we're trying to do. Instead of the 00:32:59.390 --> 00:33:06.289 dog not being really taught well enough what 00:33:06.289 --> 00:33:09.690 that whole thing means when we start, you know, 00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:13.009 reducing the rate of reinforcement or putting 00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:15.650 it on more of a variable schedule. If that's 00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:17.930 not mindfully done, then you're not going to 00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:20.690 create that. You're going to create. like let 00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:25.650 down, disappointment, confusion, stress in the 00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:29.109 dog. That's a huge piece. What happens is like 00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:32.289 if you ask for two, let's say three, and your 00:33:32.289 --> 00:33:34.630 dog gives you two and then just looks at you, 00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:37.910 what do people do? Panic and give the dog a cookie, 00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:41.890 right? 99 % of the time, all you need to do is 00:33:41.890 --> 00:33:45.559 wait. You just don't wait. You just don't get, 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.319 and then the dog looks unsure and we panic. Give 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:52.720 that, no, stop. Let the dog puzzle it out. Zaina 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:56.720 gave me such a good, I wish I had it on video 00:33:56.720 --> 00:33:59.480 yesterday. Like, because there's this whole bad 00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.519 thing about struggle these days, right? And I 00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:05.319 mean, oh my God, I could go down a whole rabbit 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:10.380 hole with this, but struggle is not bad, right? 00:34:10.539 --> 00:34:14.639 So I was doing nose work with her. And there 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.300 was like, I don't know, maybe a four foot, three 00:34:17.300 --> 00:34:20.500 or four foot wall. And I had put the odor on 00:34:20.500 --> 00:34:23.980 top of the wall. Right. So when she put her front 00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:27.039 feet up, she was not at the very top. Like she 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:30.420 couldn't put her paws up on it. Right. So she 00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:34.039 knew it was up there, like kind of. And she's 00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:36.940 like trying to figure out exactly where. And 00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:40.599 she's like, you know, going side to side to side. 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.780 And all of a sudden I see her and she's like, 00:34:44.780 --> 00:34:51.360 huge effort leaps up onto the wall. Right. And 00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.159 then she's like, there it is. The expression 00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:58.739 on her face. I wish I could have bottled that. 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:06.000 She was so proud because she was like. This stupid 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.719 wall isn't going to mess me up. I figured it 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.340 out. I jumped up on it and I conquered this wall. 00:35:12.460 --> 00:35:16.960 And look, it's right here. And she was looking 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.480 at me with this look of absolute pride, right? 00:35:20.599 --> 00:35:25.320 A very different look than when she's trotting 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:27.599 along and she's just like, oh, it's right here. 00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:30.750 She's still like, oh, look, I found it. very 00:35:30.750 --> 00:35:34.550 different look though the struggle the work she 00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:37.849 put in and the fact that she had to put effort 00:35:37.849 --> 00:35:40.769 in to solve the problem and she figured out that 00:35:40.769 --> 00:35:46.570 jumping up was the solution that gave her that 00:35:46.570 --> 00:35:51.150 forget the cookie at that point she was reinforcing 00:35:51.150 --> 00:35:56.530 herself because she overcame the struggle right 00:35:56.530 --> 00:36:01.210 and that's what we take that's what We are constantly 00:36:01.210 --> 00:36:04.550 taking away from our dogs that feeling. We're 00:36:04.550 --> 00:36:11.190 robbing them of it constantly. Yeah, and we really, 00:36:11.329 --> 00:36:13.769 you know, at the end of the day, like, we need 00:36:13.769 --> 00:36:19.449 to help the dogs develop into being problem solvers, 00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:23.150 right? puzzle things out because it is going 00:36:23.150 --> 00:36:25.769 to be hard in the ring. There's going to be moments 00:36:25.769 --> 00:36:30.050 where you need your dog to dig deep or, you know, 00:36:30.070 --> 00:36:32.809 in despite of if they're a little confused, I'd 00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:35.690 rather have my dog do something rather than nothing, 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:40.590 right? Yes. And it is like it's just an empowering 00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:42.929 feeling for the dog to do that. And you're right. 00:36:42.969 --> 00:36:44.750 Like a lot of people like that's that emotional 00:36:44.750 --> 00:36:47.429 piece where they're like, oh, God, my dog's struggling. 00:36:47.550 --> 00:36:50.230 Let me help them or let me just give him a cookie 00:36:50.230 --> 00:36:53.570 because that was good enough. Like, no, like, 00:36:53.670 --> 00:36:57.269 don't forget, like we're looking for always in 00:36:57.269 --> 00:37:00.030 our training. You don't want to stay static like 00:37:00.030 --> 00:37:02.190 everything we're doing. We want that progression. 00:37:02.469 --> 00:37:05.829 We want that end goal to be what we need them 00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:10.670 to be. to be prepared to go in the ring. Yeah. 00:37:10.789 --> 00:37:13.730 And we're really creating learned helplessness, 00:37:13.750 --> 00:37:16.409 right? And that's a thing. I mean, we're creating 00:37:16.409 --> 00:37:21.590 a situation where every time the dog hesitates 00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:24.929 for a split second, we're leaping in either with 00:37:24.929 --> 00:37:28.239 a reinforcer or with help. And then when you 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:32.840 remove all that help, the dog does not know you've 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:36.300 done the dog a great disservice. And it's a horrible 00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:40.139 feeling for the dog. Like it feels like it's 00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:43.480 been just left hung out to like hung out there. 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:47.360 And like you're, you've abandoned them and they 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.570 have, they don't have the skillset. To do it, 00:37:51.570 --> 00:37:54.670 a woman once said to me when I was doing rehab 00:37:54.670 --> 00:37:58.050 on dogs and my clients come week after week and 00:37:58.050 --> 00:38:01.449 they talk and I don't know, start telling each 00:38:01.449 --> 00:38:06.710 other way too much stuff, right? And I've done 00:38:06.710 --> 00:38:09.849 a lot of things in my life because I've had to, 00:38:09.969 --> 00:38:12.050 but in any event, so she looks at me one day 00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:15.750 and she's like, wow, she's like. I'm so envious 00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:19.210 of you and I'm like what and she's like I can't 00:38:19.210 --> 00:38:22.010 do anything like my husband has to do everything 00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:25.889 for me like I just I don't I can't do anything 00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:29.110 and she's like and she literally said to me and 00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:33.510 it's a terrible feeling so then well right so 00:38:33.510 --> 00:38:35.829 I won't go down the rabbit hole of what I you 00:38:35.829 --> 00:38:41.960 know of course I gave her but the point is The 00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:45.400 her saying like on the outside, you might say, 00:38:45.460 --> 00:38:49.239 oh, how nice my my husband, your husband does 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:53.719 everything for must be nice. Right. But she said 00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:57.340 it's a terrible feeling. Right. Because she's 00:38:57.340 --> 00:39:02.000 helpless in essence. Right. She's relying on. 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:05.739 Yeah. If he left or if something happened to 00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:09.110 him. holy Hannah, like, what is she going to 00:39:09.110 --> 00:39:12.789 do? It's going to be horrible. Right. Yeah. So 00:39:12.789 --> 00:39:17.650 that's what we're doing to our dogs. We're putting 00:39:17.650 --> 00:39:22.170 them in a situation where we're never making 00:39:22.170 --> 00:39:27.630 them struggle or work or push and then go, look, 00:39:27.809 --> 00:39:32.420 I did it. And right. Yeah. So it's something 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.980 people really need to think long and hard about. 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.179 And I get it. It's not easy. I'm a control freak. 00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:42.000 You know, when my dog's like stuck or something, 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:50.139 I'm like, oh, same. Well, I don't think it's 00:39:50.139 --> 00:39:53.119 comfortable for anybody to stand there and watch 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:55.920 it, you know. And of course, everybody's like, 00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:00.239 oh, God, my dog, my dog's broken. Oh, God, my 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:04.519 dog's not going to trial. Like, just relax. Like, 00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:07.300 you don't learn everything on the first try. 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.340 Right. And what does it feel like when you finally 00:40:10.340 --> 00:40:13.099 freaking figure out how to do it? Like my daughter, 00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:20.139 she's a theater kid and she was asked to be a 00:40:20.139 --> 00:40:24.360 stage director. And they asked her if she knew 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.079 how to read music and she didn't. So she was 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.900 like, I'm going to figure it out because I want 00:40:30.900 --> 00:40:33.719 to be stage director. So she did. She bought 00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:36.559 like a $3 .99 app and taught herself how to read 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:38.780 music. And she was like, I know how to read music 00:40:38.780 --> 00:40:43.179 now. Like she felt so proud of herself. Loved 00:40:43.179 --> 00:40:47.159 it. So, you know, just let your dogs have that 00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.000 glory. Dogs do. They love to solve problems. 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.139 And they liked it and it makes them feel really 00:40:54.139 --> 00:40:58.659 good. And it's just, it's so hard. It's just 00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:01.699 like my training partner has a puppy, right? 00:41:01.820 --> 00:41:04.840 Like very young puppy, like puppy, puppy, puppy, 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:09.820 eight to 10 week old puppy. And so we're in a 00:41:09.820 --> 00:41:11.679 training building. There's three of us there. 00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:15.059 My other training partner had her dog out. She 00:41:15.059 --> 00:41:19.500 has a puppy out and. what have we been taught? 00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.659 Don't let it look away. I'm like, leave it alone. 00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:26.840 Every time it comes to you, have a party, right? 00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.739 So at one point the puppy wanders off and she's 00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:33.719 like, ah, I'm like, don't do anything, but don't 00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.920 do anything, right? Puppy wanders off. All of 00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:41.019 a sudden the puppy goes, wait, and runs back 00:41:41.019 --> 00:41:44.940 to her, right? Yes, we had a party. Did that 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:47.969 two or three times. And then all of a sudden 00:41:47.969 --> 00:41:52.650 it didn't leave anymore. But the time, like not 00:41:52.650 --> 00:41:55.949 doing anything while that puppy was wandering 00:41:55.949 --> 00:42:00.190 off, that's the critical moment. That's the point 00:42:00.190 --> 00:42:02.610 where everybody's like so uncomfortable, where 00:42:02.610 --> 00:42:05.650 we've been in obedience for sure. We've been 00:42:05.650 --> 00:42:09.750 taught for decades. You never let them do that. 00:42:09.909 --> 00:42:12.949 You never blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? 00:42:13.590 --> 00:42:18.840 And guess what? The puppy figured it out on its 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.159 own, but it only figured it out because I was 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.820 like, don't do anything, but don't do anything, 00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:32.840 but don't do it. And so, I mean, there's thousands 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.900 of examples, but, you know, we just need to think 00:42:37.900 --> 00:42:42.860 about that. It's really, really important. to 00:42:42.860 --> 00:42:46.019 incorporate that into our training build that 00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:50.659 into our dogs and you know when we reduce reinforcement 00:42:50.659 --> 00:42:55.500 there are going to be moments and times where 00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:59.119 the dog's like confused and that's going to look 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:01.659 like whatever negative thing you want to label 00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:05.519 it as and in that moment you're going to have 00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:10.389 to make a decision do i fall back My same old 00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:13.909 strategy of I grab a cookie, I grab a toy, or 00:43:13.909 --> 00:43:17.670 do I work through this, right? Do I figure out, 00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:21.389 okay. And we'll talk about some of those strategies, 00:43:21.510 --> 00:43:24.889 but like how, what can I do to get my dog past 00:43:24.889 --> 00:43:29.289 this point? Right. A little bit past this point. 00:43:29.849 --> 00:43:33.130 And then I can give the dog reinforcement. And 00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:35.690 then not only are you delaying reinforcement, 00:43:35.750 --> 00:43:40.730 but the dog's learning. Don't panic. Just keep 00:43:40.730 --> 00:43:48.849 going. Correct. Yeah. Lots to unfold here. Maybe 00:43:48.849 --> 00:43:53.070 we should stop here. Yeah, I think that we can. 00:43:53.789 --> 00:43:57.590 Because it's a lot there for people to process 00:43:57.590 --> 00:44:02.670 and unpack. And I think, too, like, go to our 00:44:02.670 --> 00:44:05.889 podcast Facebook page. Anything you guys want 00:44:05.889 --> 00:44:07.889 to, you know, if we miss something or things 00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:09.750 you want us to touch upon, because I think we'll 00:44:09.750 --> 00:44:12.510 definitely do at least another episode on this. 00:44:12.590 --> 00:44:18.630 Yeah. Yeah. Let us know. Put it there. And we'll 00:44:18.630 --> 00:44:23.670 happily add it into the next episode. Or, well, 00:44:23.849 --> 00:44:27.110 except this one will be out. Well, whatever. 00:44:27.289 --> 00:44:31.260 We'll throw it in somewhere. yeah yeah definitely 00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:36.639 all right thanks everybody thanks bye bye