Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. So Lori and I showed this weekend, and
I think you actually showed, actually Lori's
shown before this as well, I think once, right?
And so we were going to talk about, we had talked
in the past about what we were working on with
Ever and Zesty, where we were. try in each case
we're working on getting a dog that's more comfortable
more relaxed in the ring we have separate issues
for lack of a better word kind of similar but
not really the same so I figured we would talk
about them separately so I thought we would start
with ever because I'm just trying to think what's
the best. Well, Lori, why don't you just talk
about it and then I'll throw in my observations.
The things I saw or thought like randomly. As
you kind of explain. Stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So. Ever
and I. have been working a lot together on um
the thing with ever is that it's her arousal
state that i'm really working on trying to find
her her really optimal state mindset of being
in the ring so what happens with ever she's a
super sensitive sensitive sensitive dog um that
and she she just If she thinks she's wrong or
made a mistake, she looks like she's going to
die. Right. So she'll, her default. Or if she's
unsure, if she's worried or unsure, she looks
that way as well. Like if she's just like, if
nothing bad happened, sometimes like she'll just
be like, start getting panicky. Yeah. She'll
start getting panicky. She worries. She's a total
thinker. I. On the other hand, I'm not like I'm
I struggled a lot with that. I'm just giving
a backstory on like kind of how this all came
to head. So when she would go in when she was
looking like that, then I then would go into
trying to bring her up. Right. Like my. go -to
was, oh, I need to get her high. I need to get
her highly aroused so that she can get through
the exercise or the class, right? So we could
qualify. What happened was in doing so, like,
first of all, like that's how I just started
training her a ton, even in the beginning, because
I knew she was like that. So everything I trained
with her, I did it a lot in high arousal, barking,
leaping, bouncing, running, cookie tosses. Like
I never really did a proper job at recognizing
that that's not. how she'll ever be in the ring.
That's not like trial picture. That's not how
we're going to, that's not how we're going to
look or how I'm going to act. Or my training
was not matching trial picture, nor was she learning
how to function in. a lower aroused state. Right.
So let me just jump in. So you created cues,
right. That you would use in the ring. Like,
so if she looked flat or nervous or worried,
then exercise finished, you would use cues that
you trained to artificially bring her arousal
up like on cue. On cue. Right. So whatever she
would do, but then she would. that arousal would
actually end up looking like anxiety yeah and
it actually wasn't it was she the thing with
that was like she would go from being low low
arousal which is what most people like they were
like oh my dog looks sad my dog looks you know
like they're walking to their death sort of thing.
That's however it would look. Or if I tried to
bring her up to get her through like on cue,
then she would go into that kind of frenetic
high, high arousal and she would bark at me.
And it wasn't like Petra said, like it wasn't
like, like a clean bark. She was like anxious,
you know, like it. So. We weren't operating in
a great state of arousal, right? That was the
problem. And what happened was then a lot of
things just, then there was just some, they just
created conflict between the two of us because
I became frustrated because I didn't know. you
know, I went into sort of like, oh, this dog,
I don't know what to do. She's either sucky or
she's too high and barking at me. And then it
was just, we figured out from talking, you know,
talking to Petra, talking to some other friends,
like, and then we just came to the consensus.
Like I never really trained this dog in the right
like mindset, like, or even. trained her when
she got in that low arousal i like she didn't
even know how to function there so she wasn't
functioning correctly low she wasn't functioning
correctly high and we never found the middle
ever so it created a lot of little issues and
then um you know i don't want to say like exercises
got poisoned but it did it like it caused conflict
in the ring and then those associations to ring
picture um it just a lot of things crept into
our work that then we just didn't have you know
the thing with ever and i know with zesty too
like these dogs are so highly trained the training
is in there So even when she would go, like,
sucky, like, I'm like, oh, my God, like, I'm
dragging her around the ring. The dog was accurate
as all hell. Like, you know, the dog could come
out of the ring with a 199 or whatever. Because
even when she was sucky, like she'd still hit
all her fronts, like she'd be accurate as hell.
So, but that's not what I wanted. Like, that's
what we always talk about, right? Like, we don't
want that. I want joy. I want like that gleeful,
bouncy. free dog in the ring like I felt she
wasn't free it was just so tight and bound and
yucky um and then when you were showing her um
you would in the ring handling wise do different
things but always where you were like you were
kind of like trying to get her in a So it's like
the same thing I was doing with Ceci. Like I
get in the ring, things would start to happen.
And I'd be like, we try to, we're trying so hard.
Right. In the ring. Yeah. All these different
things to get them like in a better head space.
But then in a weird way, I think they end up.
the dog ends up perceiving that as pressure.
Well, that's the thing. And like with Ever, because
she's, the dog cares so much about how I feel
about things and whether she's right or wrong.
So what would happen was what I would go into,
like, you know, I would see her start to dip
and then I would try to manufacture it. to carry
her. And then she couldn't do it. Like she couldn't
meet me where I wanted her to be. And then she
perceived that as error. And that was where I
think the pressure got layered into the work.
And then there was just negative ick with a lot
of things. i think what you just said is so key
that we really have to highlight this because
it's true for me as well and i think it's true
for like so many people is that our dogs struggle
in the ring and then we're like come on you can
do it and then what you just said is so key that
when they can't meet us there they perceive that
as failure, which makes it even worse for them,
right? Because most dogs, just the vast majority
of dogs care about being right. The vast majority,
right? Like probably 98%, you know, or maybe
even 99. Then there's Zaina. But like, other
than that, they really care, right? And so...
When things aren't going well and we really think
we're helping then and they can't do that, then
we're inadvertently making it worse. Yeah. And
it's really it's really hard. I like I'm I know
you'll agree, like when you look down and I'm
sure many people listening this have felt this.
And you look down at your dog in the ring and
they're they you know, the ears are back. That's
the body, you know, reading the body language
and the dog just looks like it's suffering. We
instinctively want to fix it. Right. Like we
want to fix it. So we start. Right. And that's
that's the hard part. Like that was a big struggle
to try to overcome that because really. What
I've learned through this is I need my dog to
be able to switch, right? Like that's what I
need her to be able to do. Like on her own, somehow
I need her to be able to come out of it. So does
that make sense? Yes. Yes. So what's happening
is we, right. As handlers or trainers or both.
And, and this, in this, this aspect, it's this,
we're the same. So the same thing was happening
with Zesty in a sense that he wasn't where I
wanted him to be, where he needed to be. So I
was trying to manufacture it, right? Like I would
say, I would give cues that would say, come on,
raise your arousal, right? Bring yourself up
into a better state of mind. And all it did was
put more pressure on him because I was giving
him more things to do. he and ever needed to
do is to be able to do that on their own without
our right interference without us artificially
trying to manufacture it we need to teach them
to be able to manipulate it or to put themselves
where they need to be and keep themselves there
and adjust themselves up or down to stay there.
Right. Like with Zaina, when she gets too high,
I'll look at her in the ring, like, don't do
it. And then you, she'll do something very, it's
very clear. It's like, she'll start snapping
her jaws or she'll do something where she lowers
her arousal. Yeah. Right. Cause she knows if
she doesn't lower it, she's going to bark or
whatever. And she knows that that's not correct.
Right. Like Um, so I'll cue her, but she does
it on her own. Right. I just do a quick cue and
she's like, got it. Yeah. I need to do that.
But Ever and Zesty were not in control at all.
Right. Right. Yeah. And so this has been, um,
what I've been working on in my training. Right.
So, um, What I didn't do. So what I did get rid
of is asking her to do like I kind of got rid
of all those pre cues of bounce and all that
stuff. So what I did was I sort of just call
it like doodling. Right. So if I. went in and
went to go do an exercise with one of my friends,
one of my training partners and ever looked sucky.
Like my first instinct there would to be like,
bounce, what can you do? But I don't like, I
wanted to create a new path. I wanted to show
her a new path of how to, for herself to bring
herself in the right mindset. So What I would
do is I just used like little things like another
setup, a with me, a lie down. And I would just
because I didn't want to make anything look like,
oh, you're wrong ever. Right. Like I didn't want
to mark it in any way where she interpreted that
as, oh, God, she she's wrong because she's in
the wrong arousal state because she's worried
or whatever the reason. is causing her to go
low so I would just reset the setup I would do
a lie down I would do it with me I would do a
pivot until she brought it herself and then I
would just do a different like I would just kind
of change up my reinforcer how I would do it
so sometimes I would just feed it quietly sometimes
I would do a scatter Sometimes I would yip and
throw a cookie. Sometimes we'd play a game. So
in doing this, it kind of changed her relationship
with her arousal state, wherever it was. wherever
it was so because what she would do was like
if she got worried or nervous or unsure about
something and she went low I could see immediately
she's like oh god I know you don't like me like
this and it would like just it would just go
it would fall apart like well because she didn't
know how to fix it on her own right right so
in doing this little thing that we came up with
She was able to, in her mind, fix herself, whether
it was on the second setup, whether I asked her
for another front. And all of a sudden she would
change herself, her arousal state. And then I
would just reinforce it. And then we would carry
on. So she never she she just started to never
feel whatever arousal state she was in. It was
OK. Like she wasn't. She wasn't in trouble. She
wasn't bad. She wasn't wrong. And then she started
to learn to fix it herself without me having
to do it. So it took a while. We did this for
a long time and it's like all I did. I wasn't
even doing exercises. I wasn't even like things,
you know, things have gotten a little loose because
of it, but I didn't care at this point. I'm like,
if I don't fix this. This isn't, you know, I
need to fix this. So that's another huge point.
First of all, A, it took a long time, right?
I think people, you know, believe me, we would
all love a quick fix, but it just doesn't work
like that. Like you have to be willing to say,
all right, I'm going to try this thing and I'm
going to stick with it for a while. to see if
it actually works or not. And then if it doesn't
work, I'll try the next thing. But you have to
kind of commit to doing that. And you worked
on that and didn't say like, well, I still need
to do all the exercises. So on other days, I'm
going to do the exercises because then if you're
doing the exercises and her arousal is not in
the right place, you're counteracting the work
you're doing. To adjust her arousal. Right. So
you you're like, I'm just going to focus on this
thing that the arousal and I'm not going to worry
about the other stuff until later down the road.
Right. Which is what we've been doing. So in
doing so. She's made some terrific progress.
We're heading in the right direction. I've shown
her, I showed her, last weekend I showed her
and I saw really, I mean, it's not perfect. We're
not there yet, but there's definitely progress.
You're close. Well, I think you showed even before
that, and there were glimmers. Yeah, there were
glimmers. Just to make people really understand
that it's a process, right? It is. I don't want
people to think that, like, you did it for two
weeks, and then you showed her, and now it's
almost fixed. Yeah, I know. I want people to
get a real appreciation for, like, You've been
working on this a very long time. You went to
some shows. You saw a glimmer, but there were
still a lot of issues. We'll just define issues
as the things we're not happy with, not because
of score or outcome, because of what we want
to see in our dogs, right? And then you, but
you, then you're like, okay, see glimmers. So
you spent more time than another show, then a
little bit better. Do you know what I'm saying?
I just want to make sure people are clear. Yeah,
for sure. It does take a long time and, and there's,
there's been progress. Like, so yeah, so I've
shown her probably three, this weekend was like
the third weekend. And I, I purposely entered
her quite a bit. I put a big, I put a pretty
good challenge in front of her. I showed her
one day, I showed her two days in a row at two
separate venues. So the first day was just a
one ring trial, one trial, two classes. She,
um, she showed progress there. It was, it was
good. You know, she had, there were moments where
she dipped, but I'm seeing now where, um, when
she dips, we, I, what I, what I can, what I do
in my training with her doodling, what would
I call it? You know, where I might do a little
setup or I'll do like a little, um, hand cue
on my side, telling her to sit, things like.
Things like that I purposely put in my training
that I could also bring into the ring with me.
So things that I can do in the ring would be,
you know, especially because I take notice. If
I get to directed jumping before the judge is
ready and I see that she looks a little worried,
then I'll do a little doodle. You know, I might
do another setup right there. And I might give
her a little hand cue. We're going to do sit.
And that has helped her because we do that in
training. And then it has helped her bring herself
up. So those are the things I've been able to
bring in the ring. And what I'm seeing is now
that I'm having to do those less and less. I
still have to do them if I have time. But I am
seeing her starting glimmers of it where. She
dips low because she's worried or unsure. And
I'm seeing her be able to adjust herself and
bring herself back up, which has been like amazing.
Like those are the wins. When you do use the
cue, it's not, she's not seeing it as coercive.
Right. And it's not throwing her into over arousal.
It's like very subtle. It's very like low key.
And it brings her just into optimal arousal.
Like it's very like, you know, it's not like
what we did where we're like, come on, you know,
bounce, bounce, bounce. Like come up, come up,
come up. It's just, it's very subtle. It's motion
based or it's just like a very quick, calm cue
and not a lot of effort like on your part. Right.
And she's responding to it and she's not responding
to it where she's like, oh, God, I got to drag
myself out or going, OK, then I'll get really
high. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's really a big. improvement
as well yeah it has been a big improvement so
those moments that I saw this weekend especially
because you know I trialed her on one day and
then we traveled and came to another trial the
next day which was actually where you were and
it was two trials going on concurrently So she
did a total of six classes over the two days,
which is a lot. Like that's incredibly hard for
the dogs. So, you know, by, I mean, they're going
all day. Like, so yesterday, you know, we were
in the rings and in the afternoon and I could
see like, I'm tired. We're tired. Like the candlers,
it's mental, it's fatiguing. And by the time
I was in my last class with her, Like, you know,
she's tired. I can see it. Like I I I walked
I went to cue her for my ring entrance like we
always do. And she like didn't do it. Like she
was like, I can't I don't have it in me. And
every fiber in my being wanted to be like, push
it ring. Like, you know, like that's where we
want to go. And I was like, no, no, no. I'm going
to meet her right now where she is. and not do
that to her and it was really hard because we're
walking through the ring entrance like that's
not how I want it to look but I knew like I can't
go there I can't do that like and if she's dragging
herself to the point where like it wasn't going
to be go in the right direction I would have
excused ourselves so um but what was nice was
I just I just said in my head I like looked at
her and I said in my head, I know, buddy, you're
tired. It's all right. We're just going to go
to the first exercise. I took, like, I just made
sure I put no pressure on her. And I went and
set up for the first exercise, which was the
broad jump. Oh, God. Like, it's like, God, the
worst one for us. And I set her up and I just
did my pre -cue as I normally do. And her ears
came up and I sent her and she nailed it. And
like, she brought it on her own. And I was like,
that was just worth everything to me. I could
have just left and been happy with that. And
throughout the class, like she brought it, like
she was amazing. So yeah. Did she dip low? Yes.
Was she tired? Yes. But I. Really, really. Controlled
myself because I needed I needed to not put any
I need to not layer anything on her. I needed
to let her try to bring it on her own. And she
did multiple times on her own throughout the
weekend, which I was absolutely thrilled with.
So what? So you also changed your handling because
like I couldn't. Like what? Because I was showing
two dogs and two trials and on and on and was
in and out of the ring like eight thousand times.
I couldn't like actually watch watch. But I know
at one point I was with one of my dogs probably
waiting to go, you know, waiting to go in and
a few dogs or something. And you I I heard you
in the ring. And I was like, oh, you that was
the first time I heard you in the ring where
you sounded exactly like you sound in training
training. Yeah, like exactly. And I I was like,
oh, that's really good. It was it was so clear
to me in that moment. So like, you know, I must
have heard you in other trials. over the year
you know in other situations and like I don't
even think it's a conscious thing like subconsciously
like I probably know like certain handlers just
because right like how they sound or whatever
um so I think that's really really important
too because I so there were a couple so you sounded
very different and um and then your student right
with the Joan Joan with the terrier like um so
she was so this is is she is it open a right
yeah open a yeah open a with a terrier okay and
so she was like I was talking to her and I don't
know she was I forget exactly what we were talking
about her being nervous or so. And then she said
something to me like, yeah, you know, like, um,
I, I have a lesson with Lori and she goes, okay,
like do like a little run through or partial
run through. And then she tells me like, what
do you think? And she's like, well, I think I
did. Okay. And she's like, you. We're nothing
like you are in training. I said, well, that
should be your goal right there. I said, your
only goal. I said, when you go in that ring today
should be don't worry about your dog because,
you know, everybody gets nervous and then they're
like, I don't know if I should even show. I don't
know what my dog's going to do. I don't know
this. I said to her, only focus on one thing.
Do the same thing in the ring as you do in training.
yeah right um and she did i think she did that
as a matter of fact she even helped she even
helped a dog she even did a couple like extra
cues which she knowingly consciously did on purpose
it wasn't it didn't disqualify her but and like
i felt like she worked her transitions really
hard yeah and she like really she held it together
there was some amazing stuff that happened where
i was like first of all i can't even watch like
it's the most stressful thing oh my god because
she's so lovely and she has worked so hard with
this dog so hard and i i can see it and she's
tried so hard she tries so hard And she did such
a beautiful job handling the dog. It made a little
mistake. She didn't panic. And the dog went,
oh, I remember what to do. Cause she totally
held it together. Yeah. A bunch of times and
they qualified and it was super cute class. Yeah.
And again, though, the theme there was, which,
you know, is so challenging, but it's like. to
be the same in the ring as in training yeah and
that's hard and it's especially hard to hold
that when your dog so you're like handling the
way you want your dog struggles you panic you
change that actually probably makes it worse
for the dog and then down a rabbit hole we go
right whereas when the dog struggles which is
exactly what you described she started to struggle
you were tempted like we all are you didn't though
go down the rabbit hole you were like I'm just
sticking to the plan like the plan is I don't
do these things right this is not what I do in
training And then the dog does know what to do
because it's like, oh, wait, I know what to do
in this situation because I recognize this because
I see this in training and therefore I know what
to do. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. And
it is like this. I am telling people this right,
left and center all the time now. Like it is,
it is the hardest thing. It's the hardest thing
to like, A, to be the same person in training
as you are in trialing. Like that's one of the
biggest pieces of the puzzle that I think is
missing a lot of times or isn't quite looked
at closely enough. And the urge to just. go down
those rabbit holes, like I get, you know, to
get in your head about it because, and that's
all I did this weekend. Like, you know, right
now, everything I'm doing with my, with my shows
is in preparation for the NOC, you know, and
I'm not even like my goals for the NOC aren't
even like, oh, I want a place I want to win.
I want to be able to get through with ever where
Like we just have optimal working happiness in
the ring together. I don't care if she fails
something because she fails something, but I
just want that where we can work in a really
nice, she's in a nice arousal state that if things
get hard, she knows how to bring herself back
up, you know, to get through those moments without
me having to apply. pressure by trying to manufacture
in the moment because that's what we do we panic
and we're like oh god oh god the dog looks like
crap like and then i think that's you know like
we talked about it just inadvertently layers
on that pressure but um that's yeah that's where
i'm at yeah and i think that's what was happening
with zesty yeah like so um I don't know. I think
it was, well, I don't even know how many months
ago, but I think it was this same trial site.
Right. Yeah. Where, um, like you and Deb were
just like, yeah, he looks like you're putting
so much pressure on him. And I'm like, oh my
God, I'm not putting any. And then Deb said something
like, well, can he offer, like, will he offer
things? And I'm, you know, I forget exactly how
she worded it. So I'm like, I don't think so.
So long story. So. Oh, this is fun. But it's
kind of interesting because. I don't know, maybe
the universe just does these things or maybe
because a bunch of students started doing anyway.
All right. I'm getting ahead of myself. So start
started by in my garage where we train all the
time. Put a toy on the floor, put a bag of food
sealed. It's a Labrador on the floor. and just
brought him in there he was free and I just walked
around and waited for him to initiate something
and he just stood there with his head hanging
down and I walked around and I walked around
and I walked around and I didn't give him any
cues and I didn't stare at him and I didn't go
I just walked in a circle and walked in a circle
and like talked to myself about like really inane
wacky things because i didn't because i can feel
on myself like this feeling like i need to do
something i want to do something and i feel like
that's going to be perceived as pressure because
dogs can read our bodies because that's how they
communicate right they read each other they read
tiny subtle body language off each other and
that's what they're reading off us so right walk
in a circle walk in a circle walk in a circle
forever in a day Until finally, after like an
inordinately long amount of time, I didn't time
it, but I want to say probably 15 minutes, maybe
more, maybe a little less. I don't know. Forever
and a day. He finally. Gently picked up the toy
and kind of walked over to me and looked at me
like toy. And I just had a party with him. And
we were done. So during this time period, it's
been several months. I didn't really, I didn't
train him formally. Like I didn't do kind of
like you said, like you were doing. I didn't
do the exercises. I was just working on this
thing. And we were done. And then the next day
again. And then this time, you know, probably
went a little bit quicker. when I was tugging
with him and I noticed it was very interesting
like his tugging was way it was free so even
in the past whenever I tugged with him I sometimes
would have to like tease him with the toy and
get it and go come on dude right so even there
it was like coercive right like I had to be like
come on now he it was his idea so his tugging
was very different it had a very different feel
to it So again, waited, waited. He initiated.
We tugged. Done. So then over time, he initiated
more and more quickly. Then he initiated very
quickly. We tugged. I outed. I threw the toy
on the ground and started walking and let him
initiate several times. And then once he was
doing that consistently, then I'd layered in
just a little bit, right? So I was very careful
not to immediately get greedy and start throwing
in like full behaviors or full things. So I would
do like tug, tug, tug, out, down, sit, stand,
play, out, drop the toy. I walk around and wait
for him to initiate. So we do that maybe two
or three times. done then when that was going
well I started to so basically then when I went
to a new location I had to start over from scratch
right so if I went to the Walmart where I train
all the time I had to I back to walking around
for like god knows how long till he initiated
because he in his mind like in all these scenarios
I initiate I tell him what to do And I'm sure
he was a little reluctant to start working because
he was like, well, in his mind, there was always
probably pressure, coercion, whatever. I'm not
a dog, whatever. So I had to just be incredibly
patient. I also started to realize, I think,
over time and over a bunch of my students now
wanting to try this, that. A lot of times we're
not acclimating the dogs long enough. So we go
somewhere, we walk them around. Like I am very
good about doing acclimation, but then I say
to the dog, okay, let's work. Now that I'm waiting
for him to initiate, even when now he's initiating
way more quickly and very happily. But there's
still this latency period. And I do believe that
we're underestimating the length of time it takes
them to acclimate. I'm seeing that with a lot
of my students where they're like, oh, yeah,
it's longer. But then when I get the dog, I have
all of the dog. Right. So that's a piece that's
been really interesting. And I've been working
on with a lot of my students because I'm like,
I don't think we give them enough time. So in
any event, he chooses and then he starts the
game. Then what I did. So then when I went to
the training, my friend's training building where
I go every week, train with a couple training
partners every week. It was super interesting
because like he wouldn't he couldn't offer there
at all. 15 minutes. And like my, I'd say to my
partner, all right, like skip my turn. You go.
And I, and he's finally, I put him away, took
Zaina out, circled back around, took him out.
Finally, he could offer. I played done. Right.
And it took week after week till he could give
me more and more and more. Yeah. And in doing
so like this, like just. Just to interrupt for
a second, like, this process is, it's hard. Like,
it's hard to watch this, you know, to see, because
we also, like, you have that emotional piece
in there, too. Like, oh, my God, the dog doesn't
want to do anything with me. Oh, my God, blah,
blah, blah. So it is incredibly hard. I just
want people to know that like, and the patience
and just to stay neutral about the whole thing
and just to wait. Like it is, it is a really
difficult thing to do. So hard. I give so many
of my students so much credit. I think I haven't
taught this in the past as part of offering because
I didn't think they would. And I see them now,
like, and I see initially they'll like do these
little things like. that they're not even aware
of and I'm like okay so next time don't put your
hand in heel position or don't look at your dog
or don't and they're like oh I did that didn't
I'm like yeah because doing nothing right is
so hard and like you're just walking in a circle
walking in a circle feeling like an idiot and
you're like what is even happening here and then
like you know Like my favorite was when I'm in
the Walmart parking lot. And then I'm like, I
had, I had gotten to a further stage of this,
but long story short, like, so now we're in a
Mexican standoff because I can't move until he
offers. And he's just looking at me and I'm just
looking at him. And I'm like, you know, now there's
people walking by and the dog's looking at me.
I'm not looking at the dog. We're like, he's
like 30 feet away from me and nothing's happening.
Now you start feeling this weird pressure. Like
people are like, what the fuck are you doing?
Right. And nothing's happening. And the clock's
ticking, tick, tock, tick, tock. And you're,
you know, I am not. A sit around and I'm like
on the go in my head. I have to stop myself from
thinking about all the things I have to do. So
I just sit there and go, oh, there's birds in
the sky. Like I say these inane things to myself
so that like nothing is projected. Right. And
I can't like smile at him or do anything with
my face because that's a cue. It's coercive.
Right. It's like I'm trying to get you to do
something. So, um, until he finally offered then
yes, huge party and whatever, but yeah, so that
do nothing thing is so hard. And then when you're
around other people, it's like, thank God, like,
you know, I have good training partners, right?
Because like, it's my turn and they're standing
and the three of us are standing around while
zest is just like wandering aimlessly. That's
like my turn. waiting for him to offer. Right.
And then I'm getting like frustrated and they're
like, just wait them out. You know? So like,
it helps to have like, and you know, the whole
time I'm questioning myself, I'm like, I don't
even know what am I even doing here? Like, cause
I'm making, I'm like kind of making this up on
the fly. Like, I don't even know where this is
going, but anyway. I would see these glimmers
and I'm like, I think this is heading in the
right direction. So then he started to offer
more regulars. So then I said, okay, now I'm
not gonna start anything unless he initiates
it. So for example, if he's in heel position
and I'm gonna heel, I'll just say once really
quickly. And I even stopped using words as much
as possible. I would just do a quick pre -cue
like that we're heeling and then I would do nothing.
And if he just offered a little some like energy
rise, I would heal a couple of steps. Yes. So
he would push me to start the behavior to get
to the reinforcer. So I would set him up for
a pivot. I'd cue. We were doing a pivot just
once real quick. That's it. Wait for him to do
something, a little something, anything. Then
I would start. Then I would do the pivot. Yes.
Big party. So then he has to like push everything.
And I would just do those little pieces. Then
I would also do it where I turn and face him.
So like signals, command discrimination, drop
on recall. I turn and face him and I don't do
anything unless he offers a little something.
As soon as he does, I would go, yes. And then
eventually now he offers. Then I would start
the exercise, then yes, and so on. And so then
I had to do that, you know, then obviously once
he mastered that at home, then in the training
building, then at stores, then, you know, at
a match, right? Because each scenario is different
and each scenario is a little bit harder for
him. And each scenario, you kind of have to go
back to prior steps. so right I felt he's been
coming along great like he's been able to do
some like chains I also threw in a little similar
to what you were doing like I use motion like
he likes motion yeah so like a lot of motion
games because the other thing with him is he's
a he's insecure so when I'm in the ring And he's
not sure if he's right. He starts looking for
the reinforcer. Not because he doesn't want to
work without the reinforcer. Because the reinforcer
is information that tells him he's right. And
if I would praise him, it wasn't powerful enough
for him. So I started to use motion games, which
he loved. So I created all these different motion
games. And then I would insert them between.
the marker and the reinforcer. So it'd be mark,
game, game, game, then reinforce. And then eventually
I was able to do mark, game, do a little more
work, then reinforce. So now I had something
to use to say in the ring, yeah, you're right.
And he didn't need the actual like food for that,
right? Right. So that was working and training.
It worked really well in the match. The last
trial I was entered in, I didn't go because I
lost seal. So this was the first trial. So totally
changed my goals. It was two trials a day for
two days in a row. So basically eight runs, right?
Original goal was NOC prep, right? They have
to work on building up their mental stamina.
So you could see where your holds are, but that
all went out the window. And I was like, okay,
I need to just see where we're at. Yeah. Basically
use it like a huge, the most expensive match
ever because, you know, hotel out of state the
whole night. So the mistake I made was I, you
know, went in. To this environment. And because
he had done so well. In training and in the match.
And I just put in the first two runs. Put everything
on him. Like go ahead and offer. And it was beyond
horrible. It was so bad. It was worse than any
run. We've ever had. Like so bad. Like I had
gone backwards. A thousand folds. To like it
had never been so bad. The first two runs. And
I was so demoralized. And I was like, you know
what? If he hates it this much, I'm not even
going to do, like, I'm out. Like, I do not want
this miserable animal. Like, we'll just do other
things. And I was just so disappointed. I put
in so much work for so many months. And I was
like, I don't even understand what just happened.
Thank God Deb was there. She's like, how did
it go? I would, it must've been like close to
tears. I was like, he was so unhappy. It was
terrible. She, so she thought, and she's like,
well, it was just too much. Like I couldn't ask
him to do all that in this, in this environment.
Right. Like he needed a little help and we needed
to do. So I did, I just needed to help him. I
did a few intermediate things because I had a
long time till the next runs. Like, so I simplified
things. So there was an empty ring, which wasn't,
which whatever I could go. It wasn't even a ring
really, but in his mind it was equal to a ring.
So I was able to like do some easy little things
and then reward him and build him back up and
make it easier. And then. We I adjusted my handling
where I helped him a little bit. And I said,
OK, I'm going to go in the next two rings. And
if he gives me anything good. Then I'm just going
to go. Wait, did I do that the first day or the
second? Yeah, I think I did the first. Am I going
to do that? And I'm going to run out of I'm not
going to run out of the ring. I'm going to say,
please excuse me. And I'm going to leave the
ring. and reinforce him right someone will run
out of the ring and go well paitra said she just
ran out of the ring so and i so i just helped
him just a little bit i got like several good
exercises in the row and then my stomach just
told me if i went any further he was gonna go
flat so even though and talk about hard so just
back up so Explain, like, so you did this because
you needed to build his confidence back up, right?
Well, so I ruined his confidence in the first
two because I didn't give him any cues at all
because that's what I did in training. And then
I think he was just so confused because in that
setting, look, the dog's shown enough. Right,
and then his mind flips back to, oh, God. Oh
God. And then I didn't give him any help at all.
And he didn't, he's not there enough to like,
he didn't know the answer. He couldn't find the
answer. So what I did was in the break, I said,
remember buddy, the answer is you offer. and
then you get some of your jackpot. Okay. Let's
try again. Remember you offer. Yeah. And then
you get somebody to remember you offer. And then
you get to, and he's like, Oh yeah, I remember
I offer. I said, yeah. And then I said, okay,
now there's a thing. It kind of looked like a
ring entrance. I said, so I did like a ring entrance
into there, do one or two things. He offered,
he looked at me and I'm like, yes. And he's like,
Oh, I get it in this setting. I'm supposed to
do that offering thing. I'm like, yeah. Right.
So we went in the ring. I just gave him little
cues instead of no cues, but very small cues.
Right. And and then I did my things in between
exercises and when he couldn't, you know, like
my motion games, but he didn't really fully respond
to them. But I didn't harass him about it. I
was just like, all right, we'll just keep going.
Yeah. Right. And he gave me some good work. And
then I was like, oh, I think I might lose him.
now he had qualified more than qualified he was
doing nice classes but I was like I don't care
it's not worth the risk right so I said may please
be excused and grabbed my leash and jackpotted
the living wow the twist spin you know and he
was like holy shit like yep he didn't know that
could happen Right. And now I reinforced him
and I did the same thing again in the next string.
Went in. He was a little bit better, but I got
to a certain point. And then all of a sudden
I had this feeling. I'm like, I think I literally
might have only had one exercise left. But anyway,
I just was like, I don't know, man, if I go further,
I might lose him. And I just said, may I be excused?
She's like, sure. Luckily, these are great judges.
They're competitors. Yeah. And even the one judge,
even though she didn't know why I left the ring,
she just said, get her the leash and let her
go. Cause she asked me later, what can I ask
you? I'm curious. Why did you ask to be excused?
You know? Yeah. And, um, those two classes were
worth their weight in gold because he was like,
it reinforced that he was doing the right thing.
I didn't push him past the point where it went
downhill. Um, And then he was, yeah, it just
really helped him tremendously. And it helped
me because I got some good work. And then Deb,
she even said she said she was able to make a
few observations, like lower my energy a little
bit more, slow down a little bit, you know, take
my time a little bit more. And so the next day
I didn't even talk in the ring. He loved that.
Right. Cause you even said, I think you said
that last ring or something or like you didn't
even talk. I'm like, no, he liked that way better.
Cause probably even when I think I'm like, wow,
buddy, that's really good. Which I do in training.
He probably perceived that as pressure, whether
it sounded like that in the moment or he connected
that to the past or whatever, who doesn't matter.
So shut up. I took my time. I went slow and he
got better and better. And then it was so interesting
because like he made some. he made some mistakes
when he was in a higher arousal state, not because
he was over aroused, but because I think he's
so unused to working. Yes. In that state, in
that setting. Yes. That he made some mistakes
that I like. So for example, like I sent him
in the one ring to the guy, I showed him the
go out. He looked to the right. I could have,
spent time putting him to the center yeah but
i was like fuck it it doesn't matter i'm not
gonna do that because like i don't want to look
you know what i mean so he runs out he goes to
the wrong stanchion and he sits and he's like
i did it and i just looked at him like yup jumped
him and i could tell like i i know people are
like oh you're not gonna do a fix and go or you
know So next one, I show him, I show him the
middle and I could see he's looking to the right
again. And I have taught, I know I can talk him
out of it into the center stanchion. Yeah. But
I didn't care. I was like, I'm not going to do
it. Like, because I don't want him to then go,
oh, she's over managing me. Right. Right. Let
him go to the wrong stanchion again. And he was
so happy. Right. And I just let it go. And I
was like, good job, buddy. That was super. And
I just kept going. And then in another ring.
Oh, he. Yeah. So stuff like that. So I just ignored
it. And I was I acted like it was all perfect.
Yeah. Because I know I can get that other stuff
back. Right. Like, oh, with the glove and the
other ring, like he started offering without
me saying anything. beautiful pivot. I've never
seen him run so hard to the glove. He, he was
turning as he picked up the glove. Cause usually
he, you know, he's so thoughtful. So he's out
and then he's like, Oh, pick up glove, turn around.
And he's like, and he's running back and then
he's running to the judge. Right. And I'm like,
so in my head, so now I have to make these really
fast decisions. Well, this is where it's hard
because instinctively you're like, ah, Instinctively,
you're like here. Yeah. And he would have seen
that as a correction. Exactly. Or if I said anything,
even if I was like here, buddy, he would have
been like, oh, shit. I was wrong. I just let
him go. He ran to her and then he went, oh, shit.
And then he was and I just go, come here, buddy.
Wow, that was really good. No worries. And I'm
sure everyone's like, what is wrong with her?
She just lets her dog run around the room. But
you're like, it's like what you said, like it's
freeing them up. Right. Like, no, like hilarious.
I love it. Um, it's freeing them up. Right. Like
that is the piece. And with him, like he definitely,
like he definitely has with whatever went on,
there's a, there's been some, there's an association
to. trial picture right with just that sort of
pressure that inadvertently on him with trying
to keep him up right that's the piece yeah and
it wasn't it happened in training as well really
because I was always like come on yeah come on
right right and then that you know, that creates
conflict. Like that creates some conflict in
the relationship we have with our dogs. Right.
Cause I had it too ever perceived when she couldn't
do it. That was like, she perceived that she
was wrong. She was disappointing me. And then
it just creates that conflict in the relationship,
the working relationship, which then bleeds into
your stuff for sure. Yeah. Yeah, and, yeah, and
I know, right, that, like, that stuff is, like,
or in the one class, he, like, he did a couple
exercises, then he, like, runs, runs to get,
like, jumps over the high jump, gets the dumbbell.
picks it up looks looks at the judge like for
a second and I could tell in that moment that
he wasn't being distracted he was like processing
yeah like I could see he was like oh this feels
different like and then he went oh and then he
ran back which a lot of times he'll drop back
right and bounced in front and like and I was
like you know, in my mind, like, good boy, perfect.
Right. And I just kept going. So like, I think
the point is like, we have to understand behavior,
right. And not look at everything as right and
wrong because things that look like mistakes
to me, I was like, oh my God, like that glove
was the best glove he ever did. And he ran to
the judge and people are like, are you crazy?
Like, and I'm like, it's like, thank God, like
you and Deb were there. Cause like no one else
would even understand like what is happening
here, you know? And I'm like, good boy. I'm like,
oh my God, that was so good. And I'm like, what?
So yeah, so now he's gonna, he has to learn,
like, and everything is different. You have to
remember, I'm handling him different. So I'm
different. So the dog has to process that, right?
I'm different in that setting. He feels different.
So he has to go like, oh, like this feels different,
you know? And then he has to learn to work in
that feeling. And look. In training, when he's
offering now and doing all these things, I am
not asking for any precision. If he fronts and
it's dead crooked, I leave it be because I don't
want to add pressure. Now, yes, the accuracy
is going to come back and I'm going to be able
to ask for it when things even out and settle
down and settle in. I am not worried about that
at all. You know. I'm not worried that everything's
going to fall apart. Like, yeah, it's going to
fall apart a little bit and then it's going to
come back together because the dog's trained.
The dog's highly trained. Exactly. That's not
an issue, right? It's like, it's this state of
mind, this arousal. Yeah. This, you know, and
me being, and I'm towards the end in between
exercises, I was doing the motion games. He was
responding to them and like, he would look a
little like. reinforcer and I'm like game game
and then I had him back so all those things it
just showed me like okay you're on the right
course you know you're on the right path right
stay the course um don't worry about you know
like the results or you know and it was good
that I had did have so many runs Because I was
able to just experiment and experiment over and
over and over. Yeah, it was. Yeah. And kind of
start coming out up with a recipe, which like
I felt like at the end, which was the last two
ones when he should have been the most tired.
I felt like he was the best because it was coming
together. Right. Like my my my warm up. My handling.
um his understanding like he was like oh starting
to you know get it um so yeah so it was so it
was really good on paper it was a disaster but
you know like that's not like we always say you
know that's not what we're no that's not what
what we're after at the end of the day like you
know ultimately that's not what we want yeah
so so funny because well first of all I was late
going there on Sunday and I yeah and I didn't
like so and I'm in the car something happened
with my navigation system and it like put me
like an hour and a half way out of my way so
I like texted these guys and I'm like I'm going
to be late. And at first I'm going, oh, my God,
I'll be late. And I'm like, Lori, just who fucking
cares? Like if you miss a class, like what's
who cares? Right. So I was like, I'm not letting
it rattle me. I got there. I got my stuff out
and they moved me. So they put me at the end.
So I had time and I went into my first ring.
And of course, you know, this is all all the
stuff we've been doing is new, you know, and.
Um, and I was like, I'm just going to go in like
I do in training. And she acted just like she
does in training. Now she's, you know, she's
bouncing. We're going all the way to our first
exercise and she's bouncing. I'm not asking for
any of it. She's bouncing happily along. And
I just look at her and I just, I remember saying
to her, like, I love that. I love that. And then
we set up for retrieve on the flat. I did nothing.
Like I just said, I said, I did my dude, my little
setup doodle. I did my pre -cue and she let out
this walloping bark and it wasn't her screechy,
anxious, frenetic bark. It was like. let's fucking
go. Like I, it felt so good. Like she was like,
let's fucking rock this. Like I loved it. Like
I didn't even care. Alison looked at me, like
eyebrows up. I'm like, it's fine. And, um, Her
work was beautiful. Like I was so thrilled with
that. Absolutely. Yeah. And because we can tone
that down eventually, you know, if we need to,
but it wasn't like I, it wasn't her, you know,
like, no, it wasn't stressy. I heard it. It was
not a stressy bark. It was a happy bark. There's
a huge difference. Like it's not her. I've heard
it. It's not her anxious. Like, um, no, that
was, she was relaxed and she was comfortable.
Yeah. And yeah, that's what it was. It was it
was joy. It's unfortunate that our sport is so
crazy that, you know. Yeah. Dogs that it's it's
so much containment. But she but yeah, that that's
what. And you know what? At the end of the day,
like I'll never forget. It was so. back at the
NOC with Tyler, it was knockout rounds, right?
And so in the final, when you get down to the
final two people, you have to do a full open,
you both have to do a full open round, full utility,
right? So I think we did open first. And I mean,
it's a miracle this dog did anything because
I didn't know anything about arousal or whatever.
He was always over aroused. I don't know how
he held it together. So I was holding him together
by a thread and I, the last exercise was a broad
jump. And as I'm transitioning the broad jump,
I'm like, he's going to barf. Like there's, I,
there's nothing I can do. I knew it. I knew it.
There was nothing I could do. So he, this dog
was big. He was 96 pounds, ribs showing muscle,
not an ounce of fat on him. He was gigantic.
And it was like everyone would be sitting there.
It was quiet. Send him over the bra job. I mean,
it fucking echoed off that we were in this giant
ballroom. Right. And whatever. So I come out
of the ring and everyone. And as soon as he barks,
you can hear it on film. It's this giant. Yeah.
Right. And. I leave the ring and in my head,
I'm like, dude, we still have a whole utility
run. Like, so maybe it's a point, you know what,
whatever. And afterwards, like even some people
asked me, I said, you know what? The reason he
still was able to get through those classes and
give me that accuracy at the very, very, very
end when all the dogs are getting tired. And
the other dog in the other ring was obviously
a great dog, but she flunked an article. Well,
guess which is more points, a bark or a flunked
article? So when you're looking at something
like a tournament, you know what I mean? All
right, well, you might lose some points on a
bark, but if you've... that gives you enough
dog where the dog is free and happy and can do
their work in, you know, in those conditions,
then I'll take the bark any day. Me too. Me too.
Yeah. Good. All right. So that's where we're
at. So I would say that, you know, What we're
doing, we're doing different things, but it's
work. It's it's similar in that we're taking
pressure off and that we're letting the dog kind
of figure out, like manage their own arousal,
learn how to do that. We're just giving we're
just giving them more autonomy in a sense, teaching
them that. Changing our handling, trying to be
the same. you know um you're trying to be the
same I'm like I I do like get very excited when
I train and I'm always like wow you know but
he doesn't like it in the ring so I'm just shutting
up you know and he likes that better so fine
I can do that I don't really talk when I show
Zaina so um but you know figuring out what your
dog needs adjusting your handling and Being willing
to sacrifice runs. Yeah. Right. Like for the
sake of using it as a way to assess your progress.
And if you need to like, you know, leave or if
you need to whatever, do extra cues or whatever
the case, then just do it. Right. Like it's just
a run. Like it's just. a show exactly exactly
you know it's just another dog show there's more
of them and i get it you know um we spend the
money etc believe me like i airbnb'd gas you
know the whole nine yards but to me it was way
well worth the investment Right. Even though
that wasn't my original plan going up there for
him. Because I got so much out of it and that
that's how we need to look at it. That, you know,
it's a long term journey to get what we want
from them. Yeah. So we'll keep you posted. There'll
be more updates on what we're doing. Yeah. All
right. Thanks everybody. Bye. Bye.