WEBVTT 00:00:11.050 --> 00:00:13.210 Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection 00:00:13.210 --> 00:00:16.510 podcast. Today, Lori and I are here with Brenda 00:00:16.510 --> 00:00:20.350 Alof. How do I know Brenda? I know Brenda from 00:00:20.350 --> 00:00:25.769 a super, super, super long time ago with a dog 00:00:25.769 --> 00:00:29.170 that nobody really knows unless they know me 00:00:29.170 --> 00:00:33.990 and that I love so much I can still barely talk 00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:38.549 about this animal. It's terrible. So a thousand 00:00:38.549 --> 00:00:42.750 years ago, Brenda was coming to give a seminar 00:00:42.750 --> 00:00:45.509 and she's a behaviorist. And I'm like, yeah, 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:47.090 yeah, yeah. I don't have any behavior issues. 00:00:47.109 --> 00:00:50.070 I'm fine. And I think I was supposed to, I don't 00:00:50.070 --> 00:00:53.229 even know what happened, but they needed a, um, 00:00:53.369 --> 00:00:55.590 I ended up saying, okay, fine. They talked me 00:00:55.590 --> 00:00:59.179 into it. I'll go. Um, and they, I, they said, 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.520 um, they needed, I don't even know if people 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.719 had quote unquote working spots at a time, but 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:06.920 they needed a very high drive over aroused fuel 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:10.500 lab. And that was my Zayden. He was always like 00:01:10.500 --> 00:01:16.180 screaming vocal high as a kite. Um, so, okay, 00:01:16.299 --> 00:01:19.959 we'll use him. Um, so of course, since she's 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.719 coming, I'm like, oh, I'm so anal. I have to 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.599 read her book. Right. Cause you have to do that. 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.879 So I read her book and I start going, oh, shit, 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.200 like there's a lot of really good stuff in here 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.719 that I could apply not just to Zayden, but maybe 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:39.260 to my other dog. So it was just barely tipping 00:01:39.260 --> 00:01:43.260 the iceberg. Turns out Zayden was not wired right. 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:45.560 She helped me. I mean, that's a whole nother 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.560 story for another day, but completely helped 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:52.000 me understand him and change his life. So that 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:56.019 was all good. But then like. I'm not even gonna 00:01:56.019 --> 00:01:59.079 lie at that moment in time I still didn't really 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:02.120 understand what this behavior stuff had to do 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:06.420 with my normal dogs in competition sports like 00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:08.300 because they don't have behavior issues they're 00:02:08.300 --> 00:02:16.699 fine well fast forward um and unbelievably my 00:02:16.699 --> 00:02:20.159 herculean amount of patience on Brenda's part 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.680 trying to get me and some other people I train 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:28.659 with to understand arousal, over arousal, why 00:02:28.659 --> 00:02:32.539 that's not to the dog's benefit, that we want 00:02:32.539 --> 00:02:36.340 our dogs in optimal arousal, how all this stuff 00:02:36.340 --> 00:02:43.659 does matter, how to read a dog. My ability to 00:02:43.659 --> 00:02:49.490 read dogs is... is a result of what brenda taught 00:02:49.490 --> 00:02:53.349 me my understanding of arousal is what brenda 00:02:53.349 --> 00:02:57.710 taught me my ability to do up cues down cues 00:02:57.710 --> 00:03:01.490 is like my bastardization of things she taught 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:06.610 me um so many like an endless number of things 00:03:06.610 --> 00:03:13.409 so now like Behavior is the foundation, most 00:03:13.409 --> 00:03:16.389 integral part of dog training because the biggest 00:03:16.389 --> 00:03:19.629 piece that most trainers are missing is how to 00:03:19.629 --> 00:03:23.610 read the dog. Why? Why did my dog do this? I 00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:25.889 don't know. Well, great. If you don't know, you 00:03:25.889 --> 00:03:29.250 can't fix it. And then there's just endlessly 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:31.949 countless other things I've learned with our 00:03:31.949 --> 00:03:35.069 pressure. Everything about pressure, all my pressure 00:03:35.069 --> 00:03:39.300 games, all the pressure stuff I teach. All, all 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:42.759 are the result of her teaching me to understand 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:46.620 pressure, the effect of it on dogs, et cetera, 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:52.259 et cetera, et cetera. Hi, Brenda. Welcome. You 00:03:52.259 --> 00:03:56.139 make me sound like really special or something. 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:00.060 I just wanted to also say too, that I have never 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:04.919 met Brenda in person. However, I work very, very 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:09.400 closely with one of her clients, um, who I train 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.419 with a lot and I have heard and have learned 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:16.639 many things through this, this friend of mine. 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:20.870 Um, and Brenda is coming out to my place to do 00:04:20.870 --> 00:04:23.389 a seminar. We are all thrilled. I can't wait 00:04:23.389 --> 00:04:27.149 to meet you in person, person. It will be. Yes. 00:04:27.329 --> 00:04:31.250 And I actually have a few students of mine who 00:04:31.250 --> 00:04:33.730 I've referred to, to Brenda, who she's helping, 00:04:33.850 --> 00:04:36.790 which is great. So welcome, Brenda. Thank you. 00:04:36.850 --> 00:04:39.449 I feel way more than welcomed. I feel like you've 00:04:39.449 --> 00:04:43.170 set everybody up for disappointment. Oh, no, 00:04:43.250 --> 00:04:46.779 no. Don't say that. You've always been like that. 00:04:46.779 --> 00:04:50.800 Brenda's always extremely humble and always undervalued 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:56.100 what she brings to the table. I've known her 00:04:56.100 --> 00:05:01.480 for a very, very long time. And I've always tried 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:06.180 to tell her, stop being like that. You know, 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.339 you have a tremendous amount of incredibly valuable 00:05:09.339 --> 00:05:14.990 information that all. trainers in all sports, 00:05:15.209 --> 00:05:18.209 not just, you know, across the board. Even if 00:05:18.209 --> 00:05:21.490 you think your dog is perfectly fine, it's not 00:05:21.490 --> 00:05:23.269 a matter of, is there something wrong with my 00:05:23.269 --> 00:05:25.610 dog? It's just becoming a better dog trainer 00:05:25.610 --> 00:05:29.730 and understanding dogs better. Well, I, I, just 00:05:29.730 --> 00:05:32.629 to return at least one compliment, Petra, you're, 00:05:32.629 --> 00:05:35.230 I, I loved you in the very beginning because 00:05:35.230 --> 00:05:37.170 you said, you know, I'm getting the scores, but, 00:05:37.310 --> 00:05:42.680 and very few people. can recognize that their 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:47.079 dog is uncomfortable, even less do they realize 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:55.060 that it could be attributed to them. So I love 00:05:55.060 --> 00:06:00.339 that when trainers are understanding that even 00:06:00.339 --> 00:06:04.040 if it looks good here, there's something that 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.180 you feel might be missing. And that missing piece 00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:11.250 is, I think, what we're all looking for. First 00:06:11.250 --> 00:06:15.430 of all, it's like, it's got to feel right. When, 00:06:15.430 --> 00:06:20.069 when I'm healing with a dog, it's not how it 00:06:20.069 --> 00:06:23.310 looks as much as how it feels to me. And I'm 00:06:23.310 --> 00:06:28.449 a very kinesthetic learner. So that feel is what 00:06:28.449 --> 00:06:30.649 I'm looking for. But when I connect with other 00:06:30.649 --> 00:06:32.170 dog trainers, I feel like that's what they're 00:06:32.170 --> 00:06:34.329 looking for too. When you've reached a certain 00:06:34.329 --> 00:06:36.730 amount of mechanical skill, right? You have to 00:06:36.730 --> 00:06:38.629 have a certain amount of mechanical skill set 00:06:38.629 --> 00:06:41.850 to even be thinking. in these places to some 00:06:41.850 --> 00:06:45.110 degree. Because that mechanical skill set is 00:06:45.110 --> 00:06:47.230 how you initially build the connection. You know, 00:06:47.269 --> 00:06:50.129 how do you lure a dog into a set? How do you 00:06:50.129 --> 00:06:53.810 want the dog to stay with you? And one of the 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:57.430 biggest questions I asked myself for a very long 00:06:57.430 --> 00:07:00.449 time was, how do you want to move through space 00:07:00.449 --> 00:07:04.430 together with your dog? Like that's, to me, the 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:11.230 main question I was asking. When I was developing 00:07:11.230 --> 00:07:13.730 my own philosophies and my own training, how 00:07:13.730 --> 00:07:16.230 do I want it to feel? How do I want it to move 00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:19.790 through space together? And, you know, how do 00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:24.850 I, how do I minimize and correction is a very 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:26.730 open term here that we should probably definitely 00:07:26.730 --> 00:07:29.970 define. You know, how do I minimize what I have 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:32.949 to correct because I'm good enough to not have 00:07:32.949 --> 00:07:37.160 to go there, if that makes any sense. Yes. And 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:40.620 so correction to me redirects the dog to the 00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:42.920 original behavior, period. That's all it can 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:49.579 do. So it's not about making the dog wrong or 00:07:49.579 --> 00:07:52.360 making the dog feel bad. Although sometimes that 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.639 happens, you know, it's not to confuse the dog. 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.759 It must redirect the dog back to the original 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.220 behavior. So I have a little game and I just 00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:02.839 call it the touch drive game. And if I touch 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.370 my dogs, I want them to drive back into me. This 00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:08.569 is not right for everybody and every dog, but 00:08:08.569 --> 00:08:10.730 it's what I like and it's what I teach my dogs. 00:08:13.490 --> 00:08:17.949 To me, that's a correction. It looks like a game, 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:23.550 but it's often what I use as a correction. And 00:08:23.550 --> 00:08:25.870 it's not to make the dog feel bad or wrong. It's 00:08:25.870 --> 00:08:28.649 to make a balance change. It's to interrupt what 00:08:28.649 --> 00:08:30.689 we're doing so I can maybe get the dog on a little 00:08:30.689 --> 00:08:35.559 bit different wavelength. It's to rebalance the 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.120 dog. If I unbalance them, they have to rebalance. 00:08:38.740 --> 00:08:43.299 It's to maybe alter the energy a little bit up 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:46.399 or down or to stabilize the energy in some way. 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:52.679 So that's the first thing that I think when I 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.559 say correction, that's what I mean. I want to 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:58.580 redirect the dog back to the original, the desired 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:00.460 behavior that I was looking for in the first 00:09:00.460 --> 00:09:05.980 place. So how do you teach or what is the touch 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:09.659 drive game look like? Yeah, so my terriers taught 00:09:09.659 --> 00:09:12.360 it to me. So for years I trained smooth box terriers 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.960 and everything I know we must give them credit 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:20.159 for because they were, I will never forget going 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.860 to my first obedience class of my dog at the 00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:25.179 end of her leash, standing on her hind legs, 00:09:25.299 --> 00:09:28.860 screaming her head off. In absolute arousal. 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.759 And when she got aroused, it would very soon 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:35.019 turn to aggression, to prey drive. With other 00:09:35.019 --> 00:09:39.960 dogs, it would be like a predatory drift is what 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.740 it's called. So she wouldn't treat them like 00:09:41.740 --> 00:09:43.259 a dog. She would treat them like a prey object. 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.340 And I at least kind of knew well enough to keep 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:50.039 things away from her jaws. But I walk in and 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.299 the instructor, I give her a ton of credit. I 00:09:52.299 --> 00:09:54.159 walk in with my dog screaming at her hind legs. 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:58.779 I said, I want to do competition obedience. And 00:09:58.779 --> 00:10:01.440 this woman, God bless her soul, trained Shelties. 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.460 And she said to me, she was a very droll character. 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:07.419 She said, well, you've chosen, what did she say? 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:12.299 You've chosen a breed that we usually don't do 00:10:12.299 --> 00:10:17.460 that with. That was a really good way to question 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:22.639 my taste. Because they would get into very high 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.460 arousal states very, very quickly. And as I say, 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:29.360 the threshold from arousal to aggression was 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.700 very quick into prey drive, predatory drift, 00:10:32.779 --> 00:10:34.840 aggression, wherever you want to go with that. 00:10:34.899 --> 00:10:40.820 They were happy to go both places. And in learning 00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:45.259 how to connect with that, I had to go a lot of 00:10:45.259 --> 00:10:50.909 different places that what I would say. you know, 00:10:50.970 --> 00:10:53.750 dog training myths certainly didn't help with, 00:10:53.870 --> 00:10:56.470 and there are lots of them in dog training, and 00:10:56.470 --> 00:10:59.409 also where traditional dog training and even 00:10:59.409 --> 00:11:01.370 a lot of positive reinforcement dog training 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:05.429 didn't cover. You know, all those things can 00:11:05.429 --> 00:11:08.529 give you some mechanical skills, but there's 00:11:08.529 --> 00:11:10.870 the science of training and there's the art of 00:11:10.870 --> 00:11:13.289 training. And once you've got the science down, 00:11:14.009 --> 00:11:16.950 You need to go to the art to find the rest of 00:11:16.950 --> 00:11:20.070 the answers because the science can answer almost 00:11:20.070 --> 00:11:22.990 everything, but it can't answer the way we feel 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:26.190 it. Right. You can have the best mechanical skills 00:11:26.190 --> 00:11:30.730 in the world and still not love the feel you've 00:11:30.730 --> 00:11:34.929 got with what's happening in the training. And 00:11:34.929 --> 00:11:39.710 I guess the place that I always think about is 00:11:39.710 --> 00:11:44.080 a psychological term that I. read somewhere but 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.240 I loved it and it was called power sharing without 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.960 hierarchy and I'm like that's what I want I want 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.220 it to feel like that now can you really achieve 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:56.299 that with your an animal you're training I don't 00:11:56.299 --> 00:12:00.419 really think so because you have to lead the 00:12:00.419 --> 00:12:04.919 dance right like you you sign the check if you're 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.580 going to enter a show. You sign the check. You're 00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:10.899 the one that determines what you train the dog 00:12:10.899 --> 00:12:12.919 to do, all those things. So you have to be the 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:16.539 guidance in those things. But once the mechanical 00:12:16.539 --> 00:12:19.600 skills are completed, how does it feel to move 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.259 through space with your dog? What does that feel 00:12:22.259 --> 00:12:28.159 like? How does that look? So I have a lot of 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.100 background in dressage and horse training as 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:33.879 well. In dressage, what we actually say is we 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:37.340 don't want to see the rider. We want to be looking 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:40.860 at the horse and we want to see the horse and 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:44.440 we want to see that horse's expression without 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:49.419 the expression being dampened so much by precise 00:12:49.419 --> 00:12:52.519 mechanical skills that there's nothing left of 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.460 the animal by making any sense. Totally. Yeah. 00:12:56.580 --> 00:12:59.820 And so those, you know, what I call a dutiful 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:04.139 performance is not okay for me. You can, you 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:06.000 can win tournaments with that. You can do all 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.399 kinds of things with that. But I once got on, 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.139 someone had a Grand Prix horse and I got on the 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:12.519 Grand Prix horse. I thought this is going to 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:15.740 be amazing. And it was horrible. The horse felt 00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:18.440 really heavy in my hand. I mean, this could have 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:20.980 been my riding too, but it's how the horse looked 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:22.960 with everybody else as well. But the horse was 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:24.700 really heavy, like 20 minutes. And I'm like, 00:13:24.740 --> 00:13:27.289 I just want to off. like this is too much work 00:13:27.289 --> 00:13:31.090 and um i worked for many years with a trainer 00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:35.289 named bettina drummond and she was an absolute 00:13:35.289 --> 00:13:39.009 total genius with horses and if you rode a horse 00:13:39.009 --> 00:13:42.009 that bettina had trained i kid you not it felt 00:13:42.009 --> 00:13:44.429 like you sat there and you thought it and the 00:13:44.429 --> 00:13:49.049 horse did it and i finally said that's what power 00:13:49.049 --> 00:13:51.429 sharing without hierarchy feels like it feels 00:13:51.429 --> 00:13:56.980 like you're in such a cord that There are no 00:13:56.980 --> 00:13:58.899 corrections have to be made because you're both 00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:02.940 thinking the same thought. I know that gets a 00:14:02.940 --> 00:14:07.700 little crystal wavy, but that's the feel I think 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:10.419 we're all looking for is that when we say, you 00:14:10.419 --> 00:14:13.840 know, when my body looks like heel, I want my 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.639 dogs to be right there going, yeah, let's do 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:22.120 that. Because that's when it feels good. We can 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:26.179 do a lot of things to coerce or to force. And 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:28.159 I'm not above that. Please don't get me wrong. 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.100 I'm not above saying, dude, it's going down right 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:34.940 here, right now. Because that's part of that 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:38.139 relationship too, right? I don't mean that you 00:14:38.139 --> 00:14:42.179 get rude or anything, but there's got to be a 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:46.240 feedback system. yeah and especially with different 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:49.019 dogs and different personalities right like some 00:14:49.019 --> 00:14:52.519 dogs can be really tough or they can challenge 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.960 you they can I mean that's reality like you know 00:14:55.960 --> 00:15:01.620 um like I'll I'll use my my one student again 00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:04.240 just because I think because she's training a 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:08.519 terrier and like the reality is she's like I've 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.960 come to accept that no matter what I do sometimes 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:16.620 He's just going to leave me and go sniff that 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:19.960 thing in the corner. And then I'm going to go 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:23.299 over there and say, dude, stop that and get back 00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:27.259 here. Right. Like, and no, she trains like mostly 00:15:27.259 --> 00:15:31.519 positive. Like this dog works. It's, it's unbelievable. 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.789 It's really beautiful. But like, he'll be. In 00:15:35.789 --> 00:15:38.389 the middle. I laugh because I have dogs like 00:15:38.389 --> 00:15:40.409 this where he's like doing the most gorgeous 00:15:40.409 --> 00:15:42.509 healing. There's an about turn. He's like, oh, 00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:46.470 what's over there? What? You little shit. Right. 00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:50.929 But like that's in him. Right. And not all dogs 00:15:50.929 --> 00:15:54.009 are like that. No, some dogs are very compliant. 00:15:54.629 --> 00:16:00.940 But some dogs have that element of, hey. At the 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:05.179 end of the day, I'm bred a certain way and I 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:08.960 have a certain personality. And I am like a kid 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.139 that's going to scream in the grocery store because 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:13.820 I want that chocolate bar at the checkout. And 00:16:13.820 --> 00:16:15.620 you're telling me I can't have it? What are you, 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:19.039 nuts? Yeah. Well, conflict resolution is one 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:20.299 of the first things you kind of want to have 00:16:20.299 --> 00:16:22.100 your head wrapped around because the Terriers 00:16:22.100 --> 00:16:27.990 are not like the other children. Carriers and 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:30.370 hounds are not like the other children. There's 00:16:30.370 --> 00:16:32.450 something totally different going on there. See, 00:16:32.490 --> 00:16:35.269 this is good. I've got students with these dogs. 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:40.549 This is great. We bred for it. We selectively 00:16:40.549 --> 00:16:44.230 bred for it. So, you know, I do tend to remind 00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:47.009 myself and those students, well, you knew that 00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:48.750 was a snake when you picked it up. So there you 00:16:48.750 --> 00:16:54.389 go. Yeah. So then it's like, you know, how you 00:16:54.389 --> 00:16:56.830 build that connection and how you move through 00:16:56.830 --> 00:16:59.649 space together. I mean, I'm thinking about that 00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:04.049 all the time. I'm probably thinking about it 00:17:04.049 --> 00:17:09.750 obsessively. And when you think about something 00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:13.329 obsessively, it's really easy to take it too 00:17:13.329 --> 00:17:18.450 seriously. And it's really easy to get naggy 00:17:18.450 --> 00:17:22.059 about it, right? Yeah, I think that's one of 00:17:22.059 --> 00:17:24.099 the things that I'm working with my students 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:28.500 is, you know, how do I keep their head in the 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:31.140 right place? And this is a conversation I just 00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.440 had. I do a coaching call for my online students. 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:38.799 And we just had like a two and a half hour conversation 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:43.059 about clinical detachment and all of the things 00:17:43.059 --> 00:17:46.079 that clinical detachment involves and how it 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.980 affects your training. Because I don't think 00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:53.599 you can separate the animal's emotional state, 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:57.599 your emotional state, and the training. It's 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.720 like nature versus nurture. It's so meshed together 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.640 that you have to always be considering it. And, 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:09.839 you know, I really feel like riding horses is 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:11.700 where I learned so much of this stuff. Because 00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:15.279 my first pony dusted my ass every day. Every 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:21.289 single day. My eight year old body hit the ground 00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:24.609 every day. And that's what I thought your dog 00:18:24.609 --> 00:18:27.009 and your cat were for is to walk home with you. 00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:31.349 Take my pony. The neighbor had a big field and 00:18:31.349 --> 00:18:33.609 I could ride it. I'd ride my pony down the road 00:18:33.609 --> 00:18:35.950 and I'd go into the big field and he would put 00:18:35.950 --> 00:18:37.690 up with me until he was sick of me. And then 00:18:37.690 --> 00:18:39.450 he would dump me on the ground or, you know, 00:18:39.470 --> 00:18:42.130 hang me in a tree or something. And I had a Siamese 00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:44.329 cat at the time and it always went with me and 00:18:44.329 --> 00:18:46.390 he would walk home with me and the cat would 00:18:46.390 --> 00:18:49.490 walk home. So as a child, I thought, you know, 00:18:49.490 --> 00:18:51.609 the pony is for riding and your companion animals 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:58.730 are to walk home with. But I think that, well, 00:18:58.849 --> 00:19:01.509 first of all, I was a very stupid child because 00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:03.230 it just pissed me off and made me want to get 00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.150 back on instead of saying that pony probably 00:19:05.150 --> 00:19:10.329 doesn't want you on it at all. But, you know, 00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:12.910 sometimes that's where the connection starts. 00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:18.599 Right? Well, and then you're, I think the reason 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.420 you got back on is probably because I'm the same 00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:23.660 way. And I know Lori's the same way. It's because 00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:26.779 you want to crack the code, right? There's got 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.420 to be an answer here somewhere. And like, you 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:33.140 can throw me off 800 times and I'm going to, 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.140 I'm going for 801. Cause I'm like sooner or later, 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:40.759 if it's the last thing I do. Well, I love the 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.859 way you justified my stupidity. That makes me 00:19:42.859 --> 00:19:49.660 feel a lot better. But I think, you know, when 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:53.220 you start like that with an animal and sometimes 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.740 that's how it feels like you start, there's still 00:19:55.740 --> 00:20:00.039 a connection to be made there. Because I took 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.799 that pony into the show ring. You know, I got 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:05.680 to 4 -H club. I took that pony to the show ring. 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.980 Won everything with him. Not at first. It was 00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:10.779 really ugly at first. He would go in the ring 00:20:10.779 --> 00:20:13.079 and run away with me and Buck. And I mean, all 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.759 the mothers were saying, stay away from that 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:21.519 little girl on the spotted pony. But I think 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:24.420 it's, it's not just persistence. You know, you 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:26.720 can't just get back on. You gotta keep thinking 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.579 about why, why that connection looked like that 00:20:32.579 --> 00:20:40.029 at that moment. Right. And. So one of the books 00:20:40.029 --> 00:20:42.549 I read about learning and learning theory was 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:46.109 really good. And this woman is I love the way 00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:49.430 she talked about acquisition in particular, because 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:53.809 especially so I'll just offend everybody here. 00:20:53.890 --> 00:20:56.089 The obedience people are too tough about this 00:20:56.089 --> 00:20:59.309 and the agility people are not in the same ballpark 00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:02.990 at all, which they should be, which is, you know, 00:21:02.990 --> 00:21:07.920 how you. How you forge a connection that has 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.940 mutual respect and isn't just built on prey drive. 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:18.059 Because I think prey drive is a place where people 00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:22.339 often go to make that connection. And I'm not 00:21:22.339 --> 00:21:24.420 averse to that because the terriers, I often 00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:26.660 thought, I'm like, the only way I'm going to 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:28.460 have their attention is if I could morph into 00:21:28.460 --> 00:21:30.259 a mouse and then I would have their attention. 00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:32.829 Right up until the time they shook me and broke 00:21:32.829 --> 00:21:34.650 my neck, which would give me about 10 seconds. 00:21:34.710 --> 00:21:37.650 But there was a point in time when I would have 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:41.609 taken that. If I could get 10 seconds, I'd be 00:21:41.609 --> 00:21:46.549 so happy. And so where, you know, where do you, 00:21:46.589 --> 00:21:48.950 where is that meeting in the middle? And once 00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:52.369 again, it comes down to me to perfecting your 00:21:52.369 --> 00:21:54.309 mechanical skills so that you can put those on 00:21:54.309 --> 00:21:58.519 autopilot so you can read the dog. mm -hmm and 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:03.359 even then it's so complicated right because um 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.019 because this is just timely because there have 00:22:05.019 --> 00:22:07.799 been a couple episodes in the row where laurie 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.799 and i talked about ever and zesty right and so 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.180 from the outside people can be like oh my god 00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.079 what's wrong with you the dogs are you know both 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.740 so accomplished blah blah blah whatever whatever 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:24.160 but it's exactly what you said And there are 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.059 different dogs with different issues. Right. 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:28.220 But it's exactly what you said at the beginning. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.640 Like when I go in the ring with Zaina right now, 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:37.880 Zaina is who she is. But like she is reading 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.099 me like a book. I even in training, I barely 00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:45.680 talk at all in the ring. I whisper if I have 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.519 to say anything, I whisper very quietly to her. 00:22:48.619 --> 00:22:53.910 And but mostly I'm silent. um she can read my 00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:57.529 thoughts through my eyes right she can read my 00:22:57.529 --> 00:23:00.809 body language she can read like everything and 00:23:00.809 --> 00:23:03.549 she is reading it because she's actively engaged 00:23:03.549 --> 00:23:06.690 with me and that's what it feels like like we're 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:09.549 together now you know granted sometimes the scale 00:23:09.549 --> 00:23:11.849 tilts a little bit because that's who she is 00:23:11.849 --> 00:23:14.210 and she's like I'll take over for a second or 00:23:14.210 --> 00:23:19.349 two but I'll take that any day right yeah versus 00:23:19.349 --> 00:23:25.430 like um zest who tends a fair amount of time 00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:28.250 tends to score a little higher than her on paper 00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:32.549 has accomplished way more not more than her right 00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:35.990 like on paper or you look at him in the ring 00:23:35.990 --> 00:23:40.509 he's very precise he's very accurate but to this 00:23:40.509 --> 00:23:45.960 day i'm missing something because I feel like 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.220 I'm a lot of times, like I'm dragging him, like 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:53.559 we're not in sync. Like he, you know, and Lori 00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:56.119 can speak to what she feels with ever, but like 00:23:56.119 --> 00:24:01.119 the whole point of that is like finding which 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:04.900 piece is the missing piece. Is it that he's stressy? 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:07.240 Is it pressure he perceives from me? Is it that 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.819 he's not paying attention? Is it this? Is it 00:24:09.819 --> 00:24:16.150 that like that? Is the super tricky, complicated 00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:20.089 piece. And is it maybe more than one thing going 00:24:20.089 --> 00:24:24.490 on, right? Or more than one relationship issue 00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:29.750 or something in the training. And that I think 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:33.190 is the piece. And Lori, you can comment on that 00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:39.269 for yourself. Like that I find is the most challenging. 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.400 I think obviously not just for me, but I think 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:47.720 for all dog trainers. Yeah, I agree. It's finding 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.960 like I always I always say refer to as this finding 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:55.920 that sweet spot, you know. And, you know, like 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.619 this, I I've been working through similar issues 00:24:59.619 --> 00:25:06.460 as Petra is with Zesty with Ever. And, you know. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.779 I always want to like, be like, you know, she's, 00:25:10.779 --> 00:25:14.980 the dog is so, both the dogs, Esty and Everett, 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:17.180 like they're, like we talked about mechanical 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:20.720 skills. The dogs are so trained with mechanical 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:26.819 skills. Like they're so highly trained, but it's 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:31.859 that missing piece of what, like we want that 00:25:31.859 --> 00:25:37.240 feeling in the ring. like I always say like ever 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:40.180 worries like she I think I cause a lot of pressure 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:44.200 because I get intense I'm a big personality I 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:49.000 am a lot of person And I know like even in our 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.880 pet life, like in our household, like I like 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:55.119 if I'm talking and I'm getting exuberant and 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.500 I might sound like intense and maybe angry, like 00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:00.019 she slinks out of the room. Like she's like, 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:04.400 oh, my God. So I then feel like I always have 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.259 to be so careful with her when I'm training her, 00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:11.680 which then becomes a problem because like then 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:16.480 I'm like, am I enabling her? Because yes. Yeah. 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:21.019 Because at the end of the day, then when it comes, 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.480 push comes to shove, like it's fucking hard. 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:28.079 Like it's hard what we do. And I can train her 00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:32.259 to the ninth degree. Right. But when we're under 00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:38.000 the pressure in the spotlight and all the factors 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.440 come in, like. that we're nervous to some degree. 00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:45.359 There's a competitive edge flowing through my 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.779 blood. You know, like I can't help that. Then 00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:51.200 she's like, you need to put it in the closet 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.220 when you're training. What? But you need to put 00:26:54.220 --> 00:26:55.599 that in the closet when you're training. It's 00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:00.660 hard, Brenda. Like that's where I, but like this 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:04.000 weekend I went to, we went to the same trial 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.279 this weekend, Patriot and I, and we were like, 00:27:06.339 --> 00:27:08.759 we've been just. We've been playing around with 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.039 so many new things. And all I cared about was 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.759 just like going through just step by step, being 00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:22.420 who I need to be forever, wanting her to bring 00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:26.500 herself to the table as like a 50 -50 partnership. 00:27:26.779 --> 00:27:30.559 Like that's what I wanted. And some of like I 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.880 got some great things. I got some really positive 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:39.109 outcomes from doing that. actually led to errors 00:27:39.109 --> 00:27:41.890 in the ring because then like criteria slipped 00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:45.230 and she made mistakes because she actually went 00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:48.710 like her arousal went up like so it's it's just 00:27:48.710 --> 00:27:52.190 finding that fucking happy well it's a line it's 00:27:52.190 --> 00:27:56.269 a it's thin for skating on because we don't just 00:27:56.269 --> 00:27:59.230 want the dutiful performance we want the energy 00:27:59.230 --> 00:28:04.480 to match and That's where I struggle because 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.579 when I want, when I can get the energy to match, 00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:11.319 then she like, we're not accurate, you know, 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:15.940 or. When I'm saying energy matching, I'm talking 00:28:15.940 --> 00:28:19.140 about something super specific, not just I want 00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:22.980 the dog high to work at. Patriot and I have worked 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:26.359 together just enough. I like a pretty hot dog 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.160 and so does she, and I suspect you do the same. 00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:32.900 Like I like. What did Bettina used to say all 00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:36.799 the time? She'd say, you know, today, every day, 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.259 I want to ride right on the edge of disaster. 00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:46.839 Now, A, that takes a certain animal. I agree. 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:50.539 Not all animals want to ride on the edge of disaster. 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:54.440 So you need that. And then if you're going to 00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:58.880 ride there, you better have the skill set that. 00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:03.460 helps you do what i would call energy matching 00:29:03.460 --> 00:29:09.440 so for me energy matching is if i take my attitude 00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:14.099 down a little bit the dog should too and if i 00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:17.960 take my attitude up they should follow they shouldn't 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.799 override me they shouldn't be under me they should 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:28.700 match me and i would say My whole training system, 00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:31.000 I mean, it's built around a lot of different 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.759 concepts, but that's a very basic one because 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.819 you're never going to get the feel you want if 00:29:36.819 --> 00:29:42.059 you can't meet there. And so I have, oh, I don't 00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:45.579 know, entire series of exercises that are just 00:29:45.579 --> 00:29:49.240 about teaching the dog how to match energy with 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.160 you. And it's a process. It takes about a year. 00:29:52.180 --> 00:29:56.640 It takes a good 12 months, I'd say. To really 00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:02.059 get to that point where you can ride on the edge 00:30:02.059 --> 00:30:06.559 of disaster without stepping over the edge. And 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:12.299 that development, it occurs, I have exercises 00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:14.500 for it, but I think one of the biggest mistakes 00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:20.160 to do with my training system specifically is 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:25.910 that You can't just say, I'm going to go do this 00:30:25.910 --> 00:30:30.690 exercise. That's not how it works. When I show 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:35.009 people an exercise, it's not an exercise or a 00:30:35.009 --> 00:30:40.849 game. It's a way of life now. I would tell you 00:30:40.849 --> 00:30:44.349 that if I got up from my chair and I walked into 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:48.750 the kitchen, my two dogs would try to heal. They 00:30:48.750 --> 00:30:51.700 would fight for it. I can run them into a wall. 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:53.599 I can run them into a chair because I'm just 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:55.720 going to the kitchen, right? And I look down 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.039 and I'm like, there they are. They're fighting 00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:00.319 to heal. Why? Why would they do that? My dogs 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:02.240 have always been like that. I had to be careful 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.000 with the terriers because they would get a little 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.839 too competitive. I'm like, you guys don't need 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:09.460 to fight with each other over heel position. 00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:12.720 Just kind of find the space around me. But how 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.259 do you, that comes back to how do you want to 00:31:15.259 --> 00:31:18.019 move through space together? How do you want 00:31:18.019 --> 00:31:21.299 that to feel? How do you want it to look? And 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:24.000 when we're doing competition work, it's not just 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.559 how we feel or how we like to look. We have certain 00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:30.119 technical parameters that we have to meet. That's 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:32.500 the harder piece in some way. It's the totally 00:31:32.500 --> 00:31:35.119 easiest piece and it's the hardest piece to marry 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:39.880 up with everything else in a way. So that how 00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:42.759 we build that connection, how we match that energy 00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:48.460 and that I start very, very simply. I have people 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:51.400 bring me their utility dogs. They've got their 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:56.220 second or third arch. And if I tell them to do 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:58.539 a simple energy matching exercise, a lot of times 00:31:58.539 --> 00:32:01.559 they can't do it. Can you give us an example 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.559 just of one just so people can kind of visualize? 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:10.380 So I start people on a circle. Remember, I'm 00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:13.400 a dress size rider. All we do are circles of 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:17.240 all sizes. We all, we're just, we're just turning 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.599 in small tight circles all the time. So I start 00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:24.339 people on a circle. It's about 20, 20 feet in 00:32:24.339 --> 00:32:28.519 diameter, I would say. My, it fits in my 40 foot 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.279 buildings, probably about 30, about, I don't 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:34.759 know, five or six feet from each wall. And the 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:36.279 first thing you would need to be able to do on 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.339 that circle is walk in slow. How many people 00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.299 can walk their dogs in slow like that? It's amazing. 00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:45.869 The dogs who cannot do slow because of, And for 00:32:45.869 --> 00:32:48.069 me, that's a biomechanical problem. If your dog 00:32:48.069 --> 00:32:53.049 can't do slow without forging or bumping you 00:32:53.049 --> 00:32:58.750 or, you know, not being straight, that's a biomechanical 00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:00.910 issue that you have not addressed. That's a motor 00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:04.890 pattern issue. So once the dog can do that, so 00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:07.730 let's say the dog knows how to heal. So can I 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:10.769 go in slow? And the first thing I have to be 00:33:10.769 --> 00:33:13.769 able to do is be in my circle. Be in the building, 00:33:13.869 --> 00:33:15.930 turn the dog loose and say, do whatever you want. 00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:18.009 Put my hand up in heel position and go to the 00:33:18.009 --> 00:33:21.289 circle and start walking in slow. And the dog 00:33:21.289 --> 00:33:24.150 should join me. If they don't join you right 00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:26.910 away, you've already, in my eyes, got a problem. 00:33:27.369 --> 00:33:29.589 And that's the first issue you need to address. 00:33:29.849 --> 00:33:33.750 The dog must volunteer to be with you. You can 00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:36.490 only, learning theory says this, you can only 00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:41.380 reinforce voluntary behavior. And we have changed 00:33:41.380 --> 00:33:44.140 that into something entirely. Like we've bastardized 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:45.519 Skinner's work to the point where I'm pretty 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:47.380 sure he wouldn't recognize it. Not that I'm any 00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:51.059 expert, but what does that really mean? That 00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:53.460 means if the dog offers the behavior and you 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:55.660 reinforce it, there's a different kind of mileage, 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:58.099 a different neural network that gets burned than 00:33:58.099 --> 00:34:00.960 when you lure and feed or you manufacture and 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.160 feed. Now, there are lots of things we do with 00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.460 the dog that we have to manufacture. They would 00:34:06.460 --> 00:34:09.039 never come up with it and offer it, right? So 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:11.900 we do our manufacturing repetitions and then 00:34:11.900 --> 00:34:15.739 we see if the dog offers it. So that's the first 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:17.699 thing. If I go to that circle, the dog should 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:20.380 want to follow me and be with me. Now, have I 00:34:20.380 --> 00:34:23.519 done exercises to prepare for that? Well, hell 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:27.340 yes. I do an exercise I call following. I literally 00:34:27.340 --> 00:34:29.400 look at the dog, look at a point, go there. If 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.039 the dog follows me, I feed him. It's that simple. 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.400 I teach them to want to be with me. And when 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:39.039 they volunteer it, I am extra happy. And after 00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.119 a while, if they don't volunteer it, I would 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.179 say, hey, why aren't you volunteering it? And 00:34:43.179 --> 00:34:46.179 when they do volunteer it, I reinforce it. And 00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:48.679 then I stop reinforcing unoffered responses. 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.039 Does that, am I making sense there? Am I? Yeah. 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:57.500 Am I? No, I think the offering. The offering 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.860 is so powerful because something, and I, I'm 00:35:00.860 --> 00:35:02.880 pretty sure this is a problem I'm having with 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:05.500 Zesty, but it's a problem with students a lot 00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:10.460 where, you know, it's like, click, click, click 00:35:10.460 --> 00:35:13.119 feed, click feed, click feed, click. So fast. 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:16.500 And it's like the dogs never even like making 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.820 a conscious decision. They're not thinking. Yeah. 00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:22.539 You got to get into a place where they're participating. 00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:25.380 If they don't have any skin in the game and you're 00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.719 cheerleading, babysitting and correcting constantly, 00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:31.400 you got a problem and you can get a lot of titles 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:34.400 with that problem. Well, it's avoidance of being 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.940 wrong. A lot of times they're so or like. that's 00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:40.019 the other it's like oh my god he made a mistake 00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:42.559 it's all going to shit what do i do how do i 00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:45.380 fix it i'm like oh my god give him a second let 00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:48.079 him try like give him a minute to breathe you 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:52.900 know and i do like a lot of times try to get 00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:54.519 my students like they're having a problem with 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.539 behavior pull that piece out get the dog to offer 00:35:57.539 --> 00:35:59.960 it right because offering is more powerful but 00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:04.860 that whole Like even shaping has become so bastardized 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:07.679 that because shaping really should be solving 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:12.139 the problem. And it's no longer about solving 00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:14.920 the problem. It's about throwing the cookie so 00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:17.519 many times that the dog is never wrong. The dog 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:19.440 gets closer and closer to approximating the right 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.820 thing. And then if you don't let them be wrong 00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:28.769 and figure out how to do it. You are taking away 00:36:28.769 --> 00:36:31.809 from them that satisfaction that I still feel 00:36:31.809 --> 00:36:33.769 from falling off my pony every day for a year 00:36:33.769 --> 00:36:37.769 and then succeeding. Right. We shouldn't take 00:36:37.769 --> 00:36:39.969 that away from them. That is a very powerful 00:36:39.969 --> 00:36:42.590 reinforcer. So, oh, I started a sentence before 00:36:42.590 --> 00:36:44.309 and didn't finish it. This is so common with 00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:47.809 me. But basically an acquisition, it should look 00:36:47.809 --> 00:36:50.530 like this. And this is the place where people 00:36:50.530 --> 00:36:53.070 start to go wrong right off the bat. Because 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:55.530 they're told traditional training kind of says, 00:36:55.610 --> 00:36:57.789 don't let them get it wrong because we're going 00:36:57.789 --> 00:37:00.610 to pattern train it. And if we let the pattern 00:37:00.610 --> 00:37:02.570 ever be wrong, then that could get in the pattern. 00:37:04.409 --> 00:37:07.190 Yeah. That's fraught with danger in and of itself. 00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:11.010 And there's a place for that idea. But it's not 00:37:11.010 --> 00:37:13.110 an acquisition. An acquisition, it should look 00:37:13.110 --> 00:37:21.130 like try, fail, try again. fail better. I love 00:37:21.130 --> 00:37:23.829 the way that particular author, I cannot remember 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:25.969 her name, but the book is called Brain Training 00:37:25.969 --> 00:37:30.250 for Riders. And it is fabulous talking about 00:37:30.250 --> 00:37:33.070 acquisition like that. Like, Patri, you just 00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:35.030 said it. You have to give your students permission 00:37:35.030 --> 00:37:38.809 to let the dog be wrong. If they're never wrong, 00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:42.969 the neural network to get out of trouble or make 00:37:42.969 --> 00:37:45.929 the right choice cannot be formed correctly. 00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:55.980 Yeah. So what happens with, um, a dog that is 00:37:55.980 --> 00:38:01.199 really, really soft and error averse, like incorrect, 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.840 like zeal soft, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.340 specifically referring to him in this example, 00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:10.000 but you understand how soft it was. Um, and so 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.579 now, and let's say maybe you had a history of 00:38:13.579 --> 00:38:15.940 you helped the dog out. Like now, how do you 00:38:15.940 --> 00:38:20.099 get the dog out of that? Right. So that because 00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:22.420 they don't have that skill set, they're like, 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:25.099 oh, shit, I'm wrong. My world is coming to an 00:38:25.099 --> 00:38:28.059 end. And then they tend to internally driven, 00:38:28.300 --> 00:38:30.500 right? Not externally driven by the trainer, 00:38:30.659 --> 00:38:34.179 internally driven. The dog's like, I'm going 00:38:34.179 --> 00:38:40.639 to die. Yeah. So, I mean, we could do 20 million 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.079 conversations on just the difference between 00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:46.219 intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Right. But. 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.500 In that particular case, so to me, whether the 00:38:50.500 --> 00:38:54.460 dog goes up over the top or shuts down or gets 00:38:54.460 --> 00:38:57.239 sullen, you know, anywhere in between those two 00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.940 extremes, it's all arousal. So internally, chemically, 00:39:01.059 --> 00:39:04.219 about the same thing is happening. The external 00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:10.099 manifestation might look different to us, but 00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:15.400 that's an arousal issue. So for me, if the dog 00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:20.639 is in certain... states of arousal it is not 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.079 a teaching moment doesn't matter how good of 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:27.119 a teacher you are there is it's just it's not 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:30.320 are those the chimes on your porch they're beautiful 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:35.219 yeah it's my um yeah just when i'm speaking too 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:38.940 i feel so special so um it's champ it's a dog 00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:43.710 that passed away so he comes and visits I love 00:39:43.710 --> 00:39:49.630 it that he visited us. That's wonderful. So, 00:39:49.909 --> 00:39:54.369 excuse me, I need to say, I just put one of my 00:39:54.369 --> 00:39:57.289 horses to sleep the first weekend. Oh, God. Every 00:39:57.289 --> 00:39:59.289 time everybody's grieving about anything, it's 00:39:59.289 --> 00:40:03.019 like I have to. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know. 00:40:03.179 --> 00:40:06.179 It's okay. It's, it's, it's all right. He, he 00:40:06.179 --> 00:40:08.860 lived a long, happy life. I just, you know, we 00:40:08.860 --> 00:40:11.239 just get to miss them forever after they're gone. 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.579 Like we don't, we don't ever stop. People are 00:40:15.579 --> 00:40:17.360 like, well, I'll get over this. And I'm like, 00:40:17.380 --> 00:40:21.699 well, you won't. So. Right. Stop with that idea. 00:40:22.059 --> 00:40:24.500 At any rate, I don't even know where I was. Where 00:40:24.500 --> 00:40:29.139 was I? Extrinsic, extrinsic arousal. It's an 00:40:29.139 --> 00:40:32.039 arousal issue, which is not a good time to teach 00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:34.780 them anything. Yes, there you go. So the good, 00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:38.300 good repetition of it. So the idea is how do 00:40:38.300 --> 00:40:41.460 I affect the arousal? I don't even think about 00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:44.260 behavior there. And a lot of this comes from 00:40:44.260 --> 00:40:46.840 my dressage work with work with horses. Interestingly 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.559 enough, there's a subset, but the people I worked 00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:53.639 with. would never say the horse had a behavior 00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:58.679 issue. They would say that they wouldn't put 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:00.699 it like this, but the reinforcement contingencies 00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:04.380 were off. Or they would talk about it in terms 00:41:04.380 --> 00:41:12.110 of biomechanics. And even arousal. We like to 00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:15.530 act like a behavior, arousal, like those are 00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:18.730 things that are not physiological. But the fact 00:41:18.730 --> 00:41:22.469 of the matter is they're all physiological. So 00:41:22.469 --> 00:41:24.590 if my dog is in a state of arousal and cannot 00:41:24.590 --> 00:41:28.650 energy match me, that's a physiological problem. 00:41:30.269 --> 00:41:33.050 The first place I go with those things would 00:41:33.050 --> 00:41:35.789 be body work. I have my own dumped down body 00:41:35.789 --> 00:41:39.579 work that is. Nothing special, but easy to teach, 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:45.820 even to novice handlers with puppies. And I do 00:41:45.820 --> 00:41:49.039 certain kinds of body work with the dog until 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:53.880 it has effect on the central nervous system quickly. 00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:59.829 So I can aid in the dog's recovery. Petra, that's 00:41:59.829 --> 00:42:02.130 right up your alley because with all your physical 00:42:02.130 --> 00:42:04.010 therapy work, you've shown me a lot of stuff 00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:06.289 about physical therapy that I have used and used 00:42:06.289 --> 00:42:09.429 and used, and it's just right on the money. And 00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:13.269 I've used it not for physical therapy, but to 00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:18.739 straighten a dog biomechanically or to... to 00:42:18.739 --> 00:42:21.900 affect their emotional state. So we have to have 00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:24.820 a way to affect the emotional state. The problem 00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:27.159 with cookies and prey drive is they often take 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.019 arousal the wrong direction, or they can take 00:42:30.019 --> 00:42:33.500 arousal in an unpredictable direction. And I 00:42:33.500 --> 00:42:35.659 need something that's predictable. I need to 00:42:35.659 --> 00:42:37.559 be able to press a button and get a reaction 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:41.400 that I can count on, right? So let me just jump 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.039 in for a second for people listening. Yes, jump 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.139 right in. I kind of know what you're doing, but 00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:48.340 you're basically doing a tactile intervention, 00:42:48.619 --> 00:42:53.260 meaning something that if you teach the dog, 00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:59.199 that means change your emotional state or change 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:02.480 your arousal in this moment, right? Would that 00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:06.300 be a correct statement? Yes. And there are two 00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:08.059 things that I think are important there. One 00:43:08.059 --> 00:43:10.239 is this isn't an emotional report card, so I 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:12.960 don't tell them good, bad, or indifferent. Their 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.480 emotional state is their emotional state. It 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.460 is whatever it is. I'm going to see if I can 00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:21.599 alter it and take them into a place that would 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.699 be more, what do I want to say, productive at 00:43:25.699 --> 00:43:28.940 that moment. And it's classical conditioning. 00:43:30.380 --> 00:43:33.619 is what it is I'm going to associate a certain 00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:35.699 touch so it's not like teaching a cue system 00:43:35.699 --> 00:43:38.699 this is not a cue system it's it's kind of outside 00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:41.039 that belly wet maybe technically it is a cue 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:43.320 system how I'm not smart enough to know the difference 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:48.219 I only know what works I think it is a cue except 00:43:48.219 --> 00:43:51.360 that's not a good word because if you say cue 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.320 then people think they must click and treat it 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:58.519 Right. Yeah. And that's not headed at all. Right. 00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:01.039 When I teach, I call it a common cue. Maybe I 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:05.320 shouldn't, but when I teach that it's never associated 00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:09.159 with a cookie, it's never clicked or marked. 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:12.690 I don't even want you to say usually. good the 00:44:12.690 --> 00:44:17.210 information is coming from my hand and my energy 00:44:17.210 --> 00:44:21.449 and my breathing and my hand and my energy and 00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:24.690 my breathing on your body which needs to be assessed 00:44:24.690 --> 00:44:26.949 every dog is different where does it work for 00:44:26.949 --> 00:44:29.449 my this dog this is my bastardized version of 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:34.829 it that um so so that gives the dog information 00:44:34.829 --> 00:44:38.610 and the dog goes understands and when the dog 00:44:39.640 --> 00:44:43.599 regulates to where i want it i remove the tactile 00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:46.579 information so dogs you release it yeah high 00:44:46.579 --> 00:44:50.239 pressure release yeah it's basic basic negative 00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:53.559 reinforcement is what it is yeah so dogs really 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:56.500 high release it when you get the reaction you 00:44:56.500 --> 00:45:00.380 want Correct. Dog's really high. I apply the, 00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:03.619 what I call my, whatever, let's not name it. 00:45:03.699 --> 00:45:07.360 I apply tactile pressure with my hand, deep pressure, 00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:11.920 because that tends to be calming. And then when 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:15.800 I feel, as soon as I feel my dog lower their 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.679 arousal, become more calm or become more stable, 00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:22.820 I release it. That information says, there you 00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:31.199 go. Now you're good. So, so it, that's where 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:34.280 it's different from a cue for a behavior where 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:39.579 I say sit, click feed, down, click feed. I don't 00:45:39.579 --> 00:45:42.579 do that. I'm giving the dog info. It also provides 00:45:42.579 --> 00:45:48.440 by default, like maybe not. initial primary goal, 00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:52.420 but a very strong connection. Right. And dogs 00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:56.780 are not really verbal. So I feel like this is 00:45:56.780 --> 00:46:00.579 information they understand, like on their level. 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.599 And they're like, oh, thanks. Finally. Right. 00:46:04.699 --> 00:46:07.760 Like touches the universal language. Right. Yeah. 00:46:07.860 --> 00:46:11.960 Yeah. I think. Yes. I do think just to interrupt 00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:15.880 for a second. Maybe, Patri, you can give an example 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:19.860 of like where you would use that in like, just 00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:22.840 say like in the ring. Right. Just so people who 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.219 have have never. Yeah, I develop it outside the 00:46:27.219 --> 00:46:30.239 ring. Right. So let's say I developed in daily 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.840 life and you need to do it 20 to 30 times a day 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.219 until it's you can see the reaction happening 00:46:36.219 --> 00:46:39.119 quicker. Yep. Go ahead. Sorry. No, don't be sorry. 00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:45.510 So basically, like. um let's say well a classical 00:46:45.510 --> 00:46:48.090 example that's pretty practical because many 00:46:48.090 --> 00:46:53.070 people do this um they talk they give the dog 00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:57.250 a reward event a tug and they get the dog very 00:46:57.250 --> 00:47:00.429 over aroused right yeah i'm not even going to 00:47:00.429 --> 00:47:02.289 go down the road should you even do that or not 00:47:02.289 --> 00:47:06.309 whatever so my dog is now like right so now i 00:47:06.309 --> 00:47:09.329 say to my dog get into heel position we're going 00:47:09.329 --> 00:47:13.309 to heal Well, in that moment, my dog can't heal. 00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:15.349 I mean, they could. It would be a mess, right? 00:47:15.530 --> 00:47:20.050 Yeah. So in that moment, I on said dog now depends 00:47:20.050 --> 00:47:23.309 with Zaina. I started on her chest and then moved 00:47:23.309 --> 00:47:26.329 the cue. I faded the cue more and more with zest. 00:47:26.429 --> 00:47:29.570 He always liked if I just held his head tightly 00:47:29.570 --> 00:47:36.380 against my body or if I did such deep. pressure 00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:39.380 pulling, like you can't really say petting because 00:47:39.380 --> 00:47:41.900 it wasn't, it was like almost pulling the skin 00:47:41.900 --> 00:47:45.710 off his head. Right. And so I would do that until 00:47:45.710 --> 00:47:49.210 I see his eyes get clear, his breathing changes 00:47:49.210 --> 00:47:51.889 a little bit. He just relaxes. Now I am not doing 00:47:51.889 --> 00:47:55.150 it until he's comatose. I'm doing it until I 00:47:55.150 --> 00:47:57.510 see him come to where I want him in the middle, 00:47:57.530 --> 00:48:00.630 like in optimal arousal, in that window where 00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:03.630 they're not overly aroused or not under aroused 00:48:03.630 --> 00:48:05.530 or exactly where I need to be. Then I stop. I 00:48:05.530 --> 00:48:07.869 always call that relative relaxation because 00:48:07.869 --> 00:48:11.679 it's relative to a point you choose. perfect 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:14.800 or they're yes so it's one right yes because 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:18.000 sometimes in some of my classes that people go 00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.019 too far i'm like no no that's not what we're 00:48:20.019 --> 00:48:23.119 after so they can't work comatose right in the 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:28.079 middle so um what i also discovered with zeal 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:31.420 kind of by accident maybe or i don't even know 00:48:31.420 --> 00:48:34.730 who knows it was such a convoluted thing is So 00:48:34.730 --> 00:48:37.329 I called it a calm cue, but it wasn't really 00:48:37.329 --> 00:48:40.250 just a calm cue. It was more of, and put the 00:48:40.250 --> 00:48:43.349 dog big, not just state of arousal, but also 00:48:43.349 --> 00:48:47.889 Brenda, like you mentioned emotion. So when Zazio 00:48:47.889 --> 00:48:51.510 will get nervous in the ring, you would, your 00:48:51.510 --> 00:48:55.650 instinct is bring his arousal up. He needs more 00:48:55.650 --> 00:48:59.500 energy. No, that would make him anxious. He would 00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:02.679 get higher, but it would pressure. The pressure 00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:05.300 creates arousal in the wrong. It doesn't help 00:49:05.300 --> 00:49:08.400 the arousal. OK, so then, yeah, then he would 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:11.679 almost be anxious and super jittery. So then 00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:16.420 I applied that same cue. Right. And he like basically 00:49:16.420 --> 00:49:19.099 in my head, I would look at him, apply the cue 00:49:19.099 --> 00:49:22.849 and say, you're fine. Right. Because now I'm 00:49:22.849 --> 00:49:25.150 dealing with emotion. Yes, it's connected to 00:49:25.150 --> 00:49:27.230 arousal. But that's what in my mind I'm addressing. 00:49:27.409 --> 00:49:30.110 And that moment is the emotion. You're fine. 00:49:31.030 --> 00:49:34.510 I'm sorry. I just want to point something out 00:49:34.510 --> 00:49:36.690 because you said something really, really important, 00:49:36.909 --> 00:49:43.070 which is in your mind. Like you got your brain 00:49:43.070 --> 00:49:45.809 around it and then you asked him to join you. 00:49:45.909 --> 00:49:48.210 I really feel like that. I don't believe dogs 00:49:48.210 --> 00:49:52.920 read our mind. Sorry, just not there. But biomechanically 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:57.179 or internally, your central nervous system changes. 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:03.800 You can change your mind with how you handle 00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:09.719 yourself physically, right? So, yeah. So he would 00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:13.159 read that and then he would steady up. Yeah. 00:50:13.219 --> 00:50:16.139 Right? So that's one way I used it. With a dog 00:50:16.139 --> 00:50:22.190 like Zaina, right? She must be bordering on the 00:50:22.190 --> 00:50:24.550 edge of disaster because it's the only way I 00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:26.929 can get her to work. Right. It's the only way 00:50:26.929 --> 00:50:29.030 I can get her to care enough to push whatever, 00:50:29.190 --> 00:50:32.989 which means I'm right on the edge. So in the 00:50:32.989 --> 00:50:36.820 ring, I set her up. Right. And I go, we're going 00:50:36.820 --> 00:50:40.039 to do this exercise. And I see her start to throw 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:42.800 herself into a little over arousal. Immediately, 00:50:42.980 --> 00:50:45.260 I touch the side of her head. I've got it down 00:50:45.260 --> 00:50:47.639 to two fingers, literally two fingers on the 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:51.000 head. And I look and I look at her with this 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:55.480 look like, don't do it because she's she's she's 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:58.219 she's throwing herself there. She happens to 00:50:58.219 --> 00:51:02.059 think the. disaster is a super fun place to be 00:51:02.059 --> 00:51:05.420 like she loves disaster she loves being in the 00:51:05.420 --> 00:51:08.239 midst of disaster like she thinks life should 00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:10.579 be full of disaster right yeah so i'm looking 00:51:10.579 --> 00:51:14.059 of chaos they look to stimulate themselves to 00:51:14.059 --> 00:51:18.500 exactly so i look at her and i go don't effing 00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:21.750 do it don't fucking do it Right. And she goes 00:51:21.750 --> 00:51:23.469 she doesn't get the least bit upset. She goes, 00:51:23.550 --> 00:51:27.650 OK. And she you could see her visibly like, yeah, 00:51:27.730 --> 00:51:31.469 rein it all in and go, oh, I'm going to do it. 00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:35.070 I'm going to hold it together. Right. So now 00:51:35.070 --> 00:51:38.630 those are polar opposites, varying degrees. But 00:51:38.630 --> 00:51:41.050 and you can use it in a million different places 00:51:41.050 --> 00:51:43.989 in a million different ways. The concept being 00:51:43.989 --> 00:51:46.829 I am communicating to you in a queue that now 00:51:46.829 --> 00:51:50.539 I tell people this all the time. I am using these 00:51:50.539 --> 00:51:56.579 cues in training constantly, like moment by moment 00:51:56.579 --> 00:52:00.920 by moment, day after day, week after week, month 00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:05.099 after month, decade after decade. So that's where 00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:07.440 the communication is so well established that 00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:11.659 when I use it in the ring, it works because it's 00:52:11.659 --> 00:52:14.659 not like, oh, this is an emergency, use only 00:52:14.659 --> 00:52:16.599 in case of emergency. You can't wait until a 00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:20.329 dog is in arousal to fix it. It's like if you 00:52:20.329 --> 00:52:23.070 live in, well, you guys, New York, New Jersey, 00:52:23.170 --> 00:52:25.469 Connecticut, the East Coast, whatever, me in 00:52:25.469 --> 00:52:27.949 Michigan, you don't wait till January to put 00:52:27.949 --> 00:52:31.070 the furnace in. Right. Like you better have the 00:52:31.070 --> 00:52:34.050 furnace where the wood cut or whatever. You better 00:52:34.050 --> 00:52:37.550 have that ready in September. Yeah. And it's 00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:40.429 the same thing is why I tell people this is not 00:52:40.429 --> 00:52:44.050 an exercise you do. This is daily life. You need 00:52:44.050 --> 00:52:46.889 to do this. All day, every day, all the time. 00:52:46.929 --> 00:52:50.110 As you say, decade after decade. It's how the 00:52:50.110 --> 00:52:55.670 dog gets enough repetition so that the response 00:52:55.670 --> 00:52:59.690 you produce is timely. Because the first time 00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:02.170 you take a really aroused dog down to a level 00:53:02.170 --> 00:53:05.690 that it's helpful, relative relaxation. Yeah, 00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:09.130 it takes you 20, 30 minutes. Because if you get 00:53:09.130 --> 00:53:13.409 a big adrenaline dump, the first phase of that. 00:53:13.869 --> 00:53:17.010 trying to return to baseline is about 15 to 20 00:53:17.010 --> 00:53:21.130 minutes to take a total return to baseline is 00:53:21.130 --> 00:53:27.969 72 hours wow wow that's why when people start 00:53:27.969 --> 00:53:30.969 to get their dogs over aroused i'm like why are 00:53:30.969 --> 00:53:34.170 you playing with that fire like that like don't 00:53:34.170 --> 00:53:37.230 you know that's gonna burn the forest down well 00:53:37.230 --> 00:53:40.510 that's the thing you know i think that's a big 00:53:40.510 --> 00:53:44.550 problem because i think a lot of people See, 00:53:44.550 --> 00:53:49.389 dogs who are over aroused, they look, we talked 00:53:49.389 --> 00:53:52.630 about this, they look sexy and flashy and fat. 00:53:52.869 --> 00:53:59.429 And that's what they think is where the dog should 00:53:59.429 --> 00:54:02.429 be optimally working at. But they're mistaken 00:54:02.429 --> 00:54:06.409 because just what we talked about. Yeah, well, 00:54:06.510 --> 00:54:08.849 and you've got it. You can work a lot of dogs 00:54:08.849 --> 00:54:11.550 there. But, A, we talked a little bit about the 00:54:11.550 --> 00:54:14.760 genetics. But even at that. You can work a lot 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:18.380 of dogs very high, but you can't do it with no 00:54:18.380 --> 00:54:21.659 preparation because it's really easy to put a 00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:24.159 dog into some form of arousal, whether that looks 00:54:24.159 --> 00:54:26.199 like over the top or shut down. It's all the 00:54:26.199 --> 00:54:29.699 same thing. You can put them there pretty easily, 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:35.199 but recovering from that is a physiological process 00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:40.519 and that takes practice. Right. Yeah. So like 00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:42.760 it gets, it's gotten to the point now where I 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.380 could literally, like if I take Zaina and I have 00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:49.079 videos of this, like in like literally moment, 00:54:49.219 --> 00:54:52.380 second, I can go give her a quick cue. You can 00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:55.239 visibly see her start to go up. I give her a 00:54:55.239 --> 00:54:58.320 second cue. You can visibly see her start to 00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:01.519 bring her set arousal back. It's immediate. It 00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:05.599 happens immediately in response and she can adjust 00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:09.579 it super quickly. And it's predictable. It's 00:55:09.579 --> 00:55:13.800 yes. And the most fascinating thing, I don't 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.000 know if you've witnessed this, but I have seen 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:18.880 this across multiple dogs now. So I know it's 00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:23.159 not a fluke. Right. Is my dogs have learned or 00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:27.500 learn at some point. to manage their own arousal 00:55:27.500 --> 00:55:32.059 in very specific situations. So Zeal used to, 00:55:32.079 --> 00:55:33.960 this was in the old days when we did a figure 00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:37.360 eight with two humans and a third and the judge, 00:55:37.460 --> 00:55:41.639 right? And he hated it. So he would get excited 00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:44.739 after his exercise, right? Like I go, good boy, 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:47.960 that was really good. We'd set up for the... 00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:52.280 figure eight and I'd go eight figure eight 100 00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:55.739 % of the time he would do a huge yawn not it 00:55:55.739 --> 00:55:59.940 was not stress per se because it he was adjusting 00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:04.159 his arousal down and then he'd look at me yawn 00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:06.139 slip licking a lot of the things that people 00:56:06.139 --> 00:56:08.500 talk about in dog body language say oh that's 00:56:08.500 --> 00:56:14.260 all stress stress has a big continuum there's 00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:16.800 you stress there's distress right you know, good 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.659 stress, bad stress, so to speak, in layman's 00:56:19.659 --> 00:56:25.079 terms. But yes, if you do your body work, if 00:56:25.079 --> 00:56:27.340 you do your energy matching, that's the whole 00:56:27.340 --> 00:56:31.179 point, is that the dogs can learn how to use 00:56:31.179 --> 00:56:34.539 that themselves to self -soothe and put themselves 00:56:34.539 --> 00:56:40.219 in the appropriate place. That's where cooperation 00:56:40.219 --> 00:56:46.539 changes in a huge way. that's when the dog starts 00:56:46.539 --> 00:56:49.679 to feel much much much more cooperative because 00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:53.099 their energy their emotional state is not in 00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:59.260 your way yeah it's really it's really well that 00:56:59.260 --> 00:57:02.099 so you know just we should take a quick side 00:57:02.099 --> 00:57:05.659 trip on that because like that's so important 00:57:05.659 --> 00:57:09.280 what you said right about the yawning like because 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:14.050 so for example um Zaina will do a snapping behavior. 00:57:14.389 --> 00:57:20.030 Snap, snap. When I walk, if I walk away on signals 00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:24.489 and as I'm walking away, I hear snap, snap. I'm 00:57:24.489 --> 00:57:28.590 like, thank God. Cause I know 100 % she's dialed 00:57:28.590 --> 00:57:31.909 in at that moment in time. If I don't hear the 00:57:31.909 --> 00:57:35.289 snap, snap, I'm like, oh shit. Like it could 00:57:35.289 --> 00:57:38.349 go either way. It's dicey, right? Because she's 00:57:38.349 --> 00:57:40.809 doing it like to adjust her arousal and to go, 00:57:40.869 --> 00:57:43.389 you must, she's like, I don't know, in my mind, 00:57:43.409 --> 00:57:45.030 she's saying you must focus. It's a physical 00:57:45.030 --> 00:57:47.570 way. It's like, you know how therapists will 00:57:47.570 --> 00:57:50.789 teach you to like put a rubber band and snap 00:57:50.789 --> 00:57:52.690 your wrist if you feel anxious or something. 00:57:52.769 --> 00:57:54.750 I mean, there's a whole classical conditioning 00:57:54.750 --> 00:57:57.349 that goes with that. But yeah, for the dogs, 00:57:57.449 --> 00:58:00.090 they have these physical mannerisms that they 00:58:00.090 --> 00:58:05.119 use to start to place themselves. Where they 00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:09.039 know they, as you say, that optimal state, I 00:58:09.039 --> 00:58:12.880 call it a state of readiness for whatever we're 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:17.090 doing. Right. Yeah. So that everything they're 00:58:17.090 --> 00:58:20.369 reading, like when all those behaviors are not 00:58:20.369 --> 00:58:24.150 always one thing. Right. Like, so, yes, my dog 00:58:24.150 --> 00:58:26.969 could yawn and be stressed, but my dog could 00:58:26.969 --> 00:58:30.449 also yawn. Like, so the reason I know that for 00:58:30.449 --> 00:58:34.030 zeal, it wasn't stress was because I knew that 00:58:34.030 --> 00:58:37.070 when that judge said forward, if I didn't bolt. 00:58:38.090 --> 00:58:41.429 bolt out of heel position he was going to be 00:58:41.429 --> 00:58:45.889 gone so he was so ready in that moment right 00:58:45.889 --> 00:58:51.750 that he was like forward and i was like go like 00:58:51.750 --> 00:58:54.869 i used to just say to myself like go if he was 00:58:54.869 --> 00:58:58.690 stressed and the judge said forward i would have 00:58:58.690 --> 00:59:03.320 been like and prayed to God he came with me right 00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:07.400 yeah I call that idea meet the dog where they 00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:11.639 are right you often have to meet the dog where 00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:16.480 they are right now and adjust from there when 00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:18.559 you're talking about arousal and emotional states 00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:23.760 and how to manage them and in dressage we actually 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.000 so if you if you were around a horse trained 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.159 by Bettina the first thing you would know is 00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:36.639 She trained them kind of feral, which made them 00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:40.280 not for beginners. But what it did was she didn't 00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:43.099 mess with their energy or their reflexes when 00:59:43.099 --> 00:59:46.360 they were young. They couldn't hurt you. Like, 00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:51.699 there were lines. But when she did the break 00:59:51.699 --> 00:59:56.199 -in on my Lusitano Gilding and I first started 00:59:56.199 --> 01:00:00.429 riding him, it was terrifying. because he wasn't 01:00:00.429 --> 01:00:03.070 used to having any of his energy contained. He 01:00:03.070 --> 01:00:05.329 was used to you just like going with that. Well, 01:00:05.389 --> 01:00:09.050 I am not a racehorse jockey. So that's not how 01:00:09.050 --> 01:00:12.369 I was used to riding. And there was an adjustment 01:00:12.369 --> 01:00:14.710 period where actually I would stand on the mounting 01:00:14.710 --> 01:00:16.730 block, kind of pissing my pants a little bit, 01:00:16.849 --> 01:00:22.949 getting up. But what that does is, I mean, in 01:00:22.949 --> 01:00:25.250 my dog training, what I would say to people is, 01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:29.039 You know, stop squishing the energy. You can't 01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:32.400 just let it lure around either, like totally 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:34.199 out of control, like the terriers would have 01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:35.820 just killed everything in sight if that was the 01:00:35.820 --> 01:00:41.579 case. But you can be the eye of the storm. You 01:00:41.579 --> 01:00:43.719 know, that's one of the ways I describe it. And 01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.900 the other way is take that energy they're bringing 01:00:46.900 --> 01:00:51.230 to you and channel it. And then my, my. really 01:00:51.230 --> 01:00:53.590 regular students and so on, and I often get into 01:00:53.590 --> 01:00:56.710 conversations about what they have dubbed clean 01:00:56.710 --> 01:01:02.349 energy versus dirty energy. And the energy that 01:01:02.349 --> 01:01:06.210 we can use is clean energy. Dirty energy is tinged 01:01:06.210 --> 01:01:12.309 with something. Distraction, anxiety, status, 01:01:12.630 --> 01:01:14.690 something. Something's going on there with that. 01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:17.960 But the energy doesn't feel totally usable to 01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:19.860 you. So when they take their energy away, like 01:01:19.860 --> 01:01:21.480 if they drop out from under you and get kind 01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:27.420 of sullen and shut down, that is a real, people 01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:29.719 wouldn't think about it like this. I do, because 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:34.320 neurobiologically, that's arousal. It's just 01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:39.260 how it looks that kind of gets people. thinking 01:01:39.260 --> 01:01:42.219 it's something else i think so would you do the 01:01:42.219 --> 01:01:44.980 same thing there like a tactile intervention 01:01:44.980 --> 01:01:49.619 you you bet i don't know how else to affect that 01:01:49.619 --> 01:01:52.860 kind of arousal first i have to physiologically 01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:55.179 adjust the dog so that they can hear what i'm 01:01:55.179 --> 01:01:59.000 saying so what about you would go through or 01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.480 whatever i mean i know what my answer is but 01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:07.519 what about dogs that resist that tactile for 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.619 lack of a Right, because their dogs are going 01:02:09.619 --> 01:02:11.559 to, for various reasons. Yeah, because it's not 01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:16.099 their idea. There's a lot going on in a relationship 01:02:16.099 --> 01:02:18.099 where that's occurring, but it happens to all 01:02:18.099 --> 01:02:21.079 of us. Everybody's going to meet resistance in 01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.699 a dog. Well, what is resistance? Resistance is 01:02:24.699 --> 01:02:28.300 physical resistance shows up because there's 01:02:28.300 --> 01:02:30.860 a mental resistance occurring. I truly believe 01:02:30.860 --> 01:02:35.530 that. So I reduce the physical resistance to 01:02:35.530 --> 01:02:38.650 reduce the mental resistance. So body work. And 01:02:38.650 --> 01:02:40.929 if the dog says, I don't want body work right 01:02:40.929 --> 01:02:43.289 now. I'm like, well, kind of sucks to be you 01:02:43.289 --> 01:02:46.989 at this moment. I work it. I work it until it 01:02:46.989 --> 01:02:55.190 works. Yeah. So. Lori, you don't have to do this 01:02:55.190 --> 01:02:57.829 if you don't want. I just think that ever is 01:02:57.829 --> 01:03:01.690 a really good example because. Um, because she 01:03:01.690 --> 01:03:05.329 was like zeal and zeal, you know, like, okay, 01:03:05.349 --> 01:03:08.329 I have a dog that's over aroused. I need to lower 01:03:08.329 --> 01:03:11.289 the dog's arousal. I have a dog that's low arousal. 01:03:11.309 --> 01:03:13.349 I need to increase it. What happens when I have 01:03:13.349 --> 01:03:16.829 a dog that one minute it's arousals going up, 01:03:16.829 --> 01:03:21.489 then I'm like, Oh God, Lori, you know what I'm 01:03:21.489 --> 01:03:24.849 saying? Cause like that, like zeal, like she's 01:03:24.849 --> 01:03:29.659 more like. moment by moment, it's one thing, 01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.340 then it's the other, then it's the other. And 01:03:31.340 --> 01:03:33.940 then you're scrambling, like, well, now what 01:03:33.940 --> 01:03:35.980 do I do? Now what do I do? Now what do I do? 01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:38.059 Do you want to, like, I mean, you don't have 01:03:38.059 --> 01:03:40.880 to, but. Well, that's really exactly what it 01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:47.440 is. You know, one second she's sitting there 01:03:47.440 --> 01:03:50.139 looking like she wants to die. That's the best 01:03:50.139 --> 01:03:52.719 way I can describe it for everybody to understand. 01:03:53.659 --> 01:03:56.960 that is that low arousal brenda right that you're 01:03:56.960 --> 01:04:00.619 referring she looks like she is going to die 01:04:00.619 --> 01:04:06.639 like she's like panting literally she's like 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:09.699 swallowing like she's got caught in her like 01:04:09.699 --> 01:04:16.239 i feel so bad for this dog but then the next 01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:22.039 minute like and i mean the thing is is that This 01:04:22.039 --> 01:04:26.039 is where like I can sort of manufacture the arousal 01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:31.300 a little bit by like just my kind of some things 01:04:31.300 --> 01:04:36.619 I can do in the in like a fleeting second. I 01:04:36.619 --> 01:04:41.760 can bring her up, but it goes way up like, you 01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:44.219 know, like I'll get if I can bring her up with 01:04:44.219 --> 01:04:47.920 whatever. Like a silent cue, like whether it's 01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:51.699 like just this ice, the staring game. I hold 01:04:51.699 --> 01:04:54.079 my breath. You know, she thinks that's super 01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:57.280 fun. But then now I'm getting barking in the 01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:00.119 ring. Right. Because you're never regulating 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:03.420 her arousal there. You're just jacking it around. 01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:08.280 You're not. Right. And it's not finding homeostasis. 01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:13.980 Every place where I don't have an energy match, 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:16.940 I have to ask myself, first of all, I taught 01:05:16.940 --> 01:05:22.119 the dog how to match my energy. That's the first 01:05:22.119 --> 01:05:26.260 place that I would think about. Body work is 01:05:26.260 --> 01:05:28.300 one of the first places I would go here because 01:05:28.300 --> 01:05:32.119 of that. And the matching energy thing, Brenda, 01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:38.420 I think what happens is. When we see the dogs 01:05:38.420 --> 01:05:41.920 get sucky, that's the term I'll use. Yes, because 01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:48.280 it's true. We panic. We do the work. Yep. Like 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:53.420 we are the circus act in the moment. We hit the 01:05:53.420 --> 01:05:57.179 panic button and we act like jackasses in whatever 01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:02.579 way we can. It doesn't feel good like that. arousal 01:06:02.579 --> 01:06:06.179 doesn't feel good but when she comes up and she's 01:06:06.179 --> 01:06:09.760 a bouncing barking lunatic that feels better 01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:14.820 but it does feel better but it's still not correct 01:06:14.820 --> 01:06:20.860 right because when the dog when the dog is too 01:06:20.860 --> 01:06:25.239 high they are forward thinking in that moment 01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:27.139 that's what we would call it in ragging at least 01:06:27.139 --> 01:06:30.820 they're forward thinking But when they go low, 01:06:31.059 --> 01:06:35.880 they actually remove their energy from us. When 01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:37.719 they're too high, they use their energy against 01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:40.059 us. When they're too low, they actually just 01:06:40.059 --> 01:06:45.099 take it away. And that does make us feel pretty 01:06:45.099 --> 01:06:47.300 bereft in that moment because where the hell 01:06:47.300 --> 01:06:50.400 do you go with that? They just said, I'm withdrawing. 01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:54.619 I'm dropping out. Yes. And dropping out makes 01:06:54.619 --> 01:07:02.480 us panic in vivid ways. Yes. But we can't provide 01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:06.059 then reinforcement contingencies for over the 01:07:06.059 --> 01:07:10.179 top or dropping out. It's easier if you can think 01:07:10.179 --> 01:07:16.099 of it as it's all the same thing. Whether they're 01:07:16.099 --> 01:07:20.980 up or dropped out, it's all the same thing. So 01:07:20.980 --> 01:07:25.119 physiologically. Some of the same things can 01:07:25.119 --> 01:07:27.579 work. So that's why I would say it doesn't matter 01:07:27.579 --> 01:07:31.019 if they go up too high or down too low. I'm going 01:07:31.019 --> 01:07:33.239 to start with body work. But in my daily work, 01:07:33.300 --> 01:07:36.760 I have to ask myself, why would they go there? 01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:39.679 And probably it's because there's a reinforcement 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:43.019 contingency present. So now we have two issues, 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:46.980 right? We have a physiological issue and we have 01:07:46.980 --> 01:07:51.480 a reinforcement issue because we haven't. We 01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:53.920 haven't made it clear to the dog that there's 01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:56.659 a different place to be. So I guess my first 01:07:56.659 --> 01:08:00.000 part of it is the body work helps the dog find 01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:03.559 homeostasis somewhere. Homeostasis is a state 01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:07.820 of balance. It's all bodies want to be in homeostasis. 01:08:08.019 --> 01:08:10.480 We might want to be in a higher energy or lower 01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:12.440 energy, but we don't want it too high or too 01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:16.119 low, right? We want it the Goldilocks place. 01:08:16.659 --> 01:08:23.500 Yeah, that sweet spot. Sweet spot. And when we 01:08:23.500 --> 01:08:29.180 take a dog too high or too low without being 01:08:29.180 --> 01:08:34.260 able to create a place of homeostasis, then that's 01:08:34.260 --> 01:08:36.560 how it gets out of control. And that's when we 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.579 tend to start doing really crazy shit. Because 01:08:39.579 --> 01:08:43.479 now when the dog goes low and we try to cheer 01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:47.260 them up. Some dogs now go lower because they're 01:08:47.260 --> 01:08:50.460 like, oh, you liked it when I went low. You're 01:08:50.460 --> 01:08:53.500 reinforcing that. So I'll go lower. So now every 01:08:53.500 --> 01:08:55.619 time you try to bring the dog up, they just fall 01:08:55.619 --> 01:09:00.520 out from under you. Or they will jack back and 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:02.800 forth between that too high, too low, too high, 01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:06.659 too low, because they don't physiologically know 01:09:06.659 --> 01:09:11.279 how to put their body in the right place. That's 01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:14.439 how I feel. That's what I feel I have with ever. 01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:20.539 Yep. That's my big struggle. Yep. And so, you 01:09:20.539 --> 01:09:23.380 know, as I, I mean, if you were a regular student 01:09:23.380 --> 01:09:26.399 of mine, I would talk to you a lot about the 01:09:26.399 --> 01:09:28.520 body work I wanted you to do. I would start you 01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:31.659 on a standby circle and I would start with showing 01:09:31.659 --> 01:09:36.319 there's a balance. And in obedience, this is 01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:41.340 particularly particular. There's precision. on 01:09:41.340 --> 01:09:44.300 there's energy and we tend to do this with the 01:09:44.300 --> 01:09:48.340 energy and then try to make the precision find 01:09:48.340 --> 01:09:51.560 a place but it doesn't really work like that 01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:56.680 we do precision and then we work the arousal 01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:00.560 around that level until we can work on there 01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:04.039 and there's a nice a nice place a sweet spot 01:10:04.039 --> 01:10:07.060 we can feel it and we raise the precision and 01:10:07.060 --> 01:10:13.199 we work the energy so You can't, you don't want 01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:17.760 to reject energy they bring you. And yet high 01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:20.579 arousal or low arousal is the enemy of precision. 01:10:21.340 --> 01:10:23.960 And even if you're doing agility, you should 01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:27.920 want precision. You should love precision, even 01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:30.300 though, you know, the people who tell me they 01:10:30.300 --> 01:10:32.760 are free spirits tend to reject the precision 01:10:32.760 --> 01:10:37.539 a little bit. But there is a place. Where the 01:10:37.539 --> 01:10:39.880 energy and the precision meet, that's your sweet 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:45.239 spot, right? Right. Yes. It's that like, I mean, 01:10:45.260 --> 01:10:48.819 it's like the golden nugget, you know, that you 01:10:48.819 --> 01:10:51.579 can't explain that. Like, and I, like this past 01:10:51.579 --> 01:10:55.119 weekend, there were, I mean, we, I, this is just 01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:57.079 where I've been struggling the most with ever. 01:10:57.609 --> 01:11:01.350 And I've been doing some different things out 01:11:01.350 --> 01:11:05.270 of the context of formal obedience exercises 01:11:05.270 --> 01:11:09.829 to work. Happen. Well, I didn't hear what you 01:11:09.829 --> 01:11:11.850 said. What did you just say? That's exactly where 01:11:11.850 --> 01:11:13.869 this needs to happen. I don't want to because. 01:11:14.729 --> 01:11:17.569 Yeah. And that and it is, you know, I mean, I'm 01:11:17.569 --> 01:11:20.409 I'm scrambling a little bit like trying to. And 01:11:20.409 --> 01:11:22.770 of course, a couple of people have been helping 01:11:22.770 --> 01:11:27.699 me. But it did it did it did carry over. And 01:11:27.699 --> 01:11:32.720 there were some glimmers of moments. That's where 01:11:32.720 --> 01:11:37.920 it feels really good. Yes. And you want to keep 01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:42.020 looking for those moments. But so I mentioned 01:11:42.020 --> 01:11:45.720 the standby circle. First, the dog has to voluntarily 01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:49.819 join you there. Yeah. And I literally start with 01:11:49.819 --> 01:11:52.399 freeze and feed every step. No sit. I don't want 01:11:52.399 --> 01:11:54.720 the dog to sit. I freeze and feed. I don't tell 01:11:54.720 --> 01:11:58.859 them stand, but I. Don't want them to sit. And 01:11:58.859 --> 01:12:03.220 I literally take one stop and keep my legs apart. 01:12:03.500 --> 01:12:05.600 I don't close my feet. If I close my feet, it 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:09.279 means sit. Yeah. So my legs are apart. I literally 01:12:09.279 --> 01:12:12.619 do like a left leg. I start with my left leg. 01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:17.220 Left leg goes forward, feed the dog. Right leg 01:12:17.220 --> 01:12:19.460 forward, left leg forward, feed the dog. I'm 01:12:19.460 --> 01:12:21.439 always feeding the dog on the left leg forward. 01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:24.920 And I've learned over time that you need to do 01:12:24.920 --> 01:12:30.050 it like that. When I can freeze and feed and 01:12:30.050 --> 01:12:33.729 it feels easy and I'm not even going to go into 01:12:33.729 --> 01:12:35.289 reinforcement delivery because that's an entirely 01:12:35.289 --> 01:12:37.630 different conversation. The reinforcement delivery 01:12:37.630 --> 01:12:40.989 is crucial. And my reinforcement delivery is 01:12:40.989 --> 01:12:44.109 more like an impulse control game than just jamming 01:12:44.109 --> 01:12:47.090 food at them. Because you can control the dog's 01:12:47.090 --> 01:12:49.449 emotional state with your reinforcement delivery 01:12:49.449 --> 01:12:53.560 in amazing ways. And so I'm taking my steps. 01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:55.199 So I freeze and feed every step. When that feels 01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:58.760 pretty good, I do every two stops. So it would 01:12:58.760 --> 01:13:01.920 be a left, right, left, right, left sequence 01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:06.220 for two steps. And then I feed every three steps. 01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:07.979 Then I feed every quarter circle. Then every 01:13:07.979 --> 01:13:09.880 half circle. Then a whole circle. And I like 01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:12.260 to work up to two circles. When I say I've worked 01:13:12.260 --> 01:13:14.880 up to two circles, I mean there could be distraction. 01:13:15.819 --> 01:13:20.729 And I am not giving the dog feedback. When I 01:13:20.729 --> 01:13:24.090 freeze and feed, that's your feedback. I'm silent. 01:13:24.229 --> 01:13:26.930 I'm not helping. I'm not babysitting. I'm not 01:13:26.930 --> 01:13:30.010 compensating for their errors. They are responsible 01:13:30.010 --> 01:13:35.630 for this. And when you say you progress to, you 01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:38.069 know, the next step, the next step, that's when 01:13:38.069 --> 01:13:42.069 you say it feels, what did you say? It feels 01:13:42.069 --> 01:13:46.770 easy. Yeah, it should feel easy. Like the dog 01:13:46.770 --> 01:13:52.880 is like. I just want like our listeners to kind 01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:55.640 of understand that, you know, like easy. I mean, 01:13:56.279 --> 01:14:02.079 I know what you mean. Yeah. So explain it. There 01:14:02.079 --> 01:14:06.140 you go. Yeah. Like, it's like, like, like it's 01:14:06.140 --> 01:14:13.739 effortless. The dog is 50, bringing 50 % to the 01:14:13.739 --> 01:14:16.340 partnership of that. I don't really know how 01:14:16.340 --> 01:14:19.819 to say it. Yeah, well, when it's easy, you feel 01:14:19.819 --> 01:14:23.220 like you can move on, raise your criteria, and 01:14:23.220 --> 01:14:27.000 they'll be able to keep up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:30.340 so that was a good clarification. Now, once I 01:14:30.340 --> 01:14:32.380 can do that, now I don't have to work up to two 01:14:32.380 --> 01:14:34.500 full circles. If I have a half a circle, I can 01:14:34.500 --> 01:14:36.579 start the next step, which is I add the down. 01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:44.079 And the down is both my gauge and my control 01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:46.869 button. It's not really a control button. It's 01:14:46.869 --> 01:14:49.069 a neutral button. So first I would also tell 01:14:49.069 --> 01:14:52.090 you, it must always be a fold back down. And 01:14:52.090 --> 01:14:54.289 my fold back downs, when I say down, I literally 01:14:54.289 --> 01:14:57.649 want my dogs to jump backwards. And I, they have 01:14:57.649 --> 01:14:59.750 to love their down. They have to think that the 01:14:59.750 --> 01:15:02.170 down is the best thing in their world. They got 01:15:02.170 --> 01:15:05.430 to love the down. There you go. Dogs I'm starting 01:15:05.430 --> 01:15:08.250 with that haven't yet. I haven't been with me. 01:15:08.789 --> 01:15:12.590 I will just lure the down here. And when I say 01:15:12.590 --> 01:15:14.770 lure the down, I never lure and feed because 01:15:14.770 --> 01:15:17.029 that's, I don't even know what that is. So there's 01:15:17.029 --> 01:15:20.390 criteria on the down. Yeah. So the criteria on 01:15:20.390 --> 01:15:23.010 the down is that they have to fold back and it 01:15:23.010 --> 01:15:25.569 needs to be prompt and obedient, right? So now 01:15:25.569 --> 01:15:27.550 I'm walking in slow. Remember all the work on 01:15:27.550 --> 01:15:29.989 the standby circle, it is done in slow. We're 01:15:29.989 --> 01:15:34.590 not doing anything normal or fast. It's slow. 01:15:35.689 --> 01:15:42.159 And I am now I will. take my two or three or 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:44.000 four steps, however many steps I'm going to take. 01:15:44.159 --> 01:15:46.359 And I turn towards the dog and I just tell them 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:48.859 to lie down and I want them to fold back down. 01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:51.220 So if I need to lure them to get what I want, 01:15:51.300 --> 01:15:54.340 I do. That would be done by luring them into 01:15:54.340 --> 01:15:57.479 the down, taking the food away, saying down again, 01:15:57.699 --> 01:16:00.140 and then placing the food on the floor between 01:16:00.140 --> 01:16:05.119 their knee and elbow. That specifically. Okay. 01:16:06.710 --> 01:16:09.970 Once they can do that and the down is like, they're 01:16:09.970 --> 01:16:12.350 starting to be like, yeah, I get my dogs to the 01:16:12.350 --> 01:16:14.229 point where actually if I start to turn my shoulder 01:16:14.229 --> 01:16:16.210 towards them, they'll often back up and lay down 01:16:16.210 --> 01:16:20.949 on the standby circle. Because they know what, 01:16:20.949 --> 01:16:22.449 they know we're on the circle. They know what 01:16:22.449 --> 01:16:27.750 that means. Right. The circle becomes, as in 01:16:27.750 --> 01:16:29.689 dressage, we would call it the sacred figure. 01:16:33.899 --> 01:16:38.939 And so when we're working this, what I'm doing 01:16:38.939 --> 01:16:46.319 is laying the foundation for me to start working 01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:51.640 arousal up, arousal down. So now, when that's 01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:56.359 easy, I will, the dog is in a down, I'll get 01:16:56.359 --> 01:16:58.979 the dog up, I'll take a couple slow steps, and 01:16:58.979 --> 01:17:01.579 I'll jog two or three steps, and then I lay the 01:17:01.579 --> 01:17:04.489 dog down. You would be surprised the dogs who 01:17:04.489 --> 01:17:07.590 now the down doesn't fold back or the down is 01:17:07.590 --> 01:17:13.590 not prompt and obedient. Okay. That little arousal, 01:17:13.590 --> 01:17:17.930 that little arousal, they already lose their 01:17:17.930 --> 01:17:20.609 precision. That's a problem. That's where, as 01:17:20.609 --> 01:17:23.069 a friend who's a professional horse trainer and 01:17:23.069 --> 01:17:25.090 she says all the time, she's like, that's where 01:17:25.090 --> 01:17:30.500 the virus starts. I like that. Because, you know, 01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:32.359 when you catch a virus, you don't know you've 01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:36.800 caught it until you start to show symptoms. And 01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:40.460 so it's a good analogy here because any sloppiness 01:17:40.460 --> 01:17:42.819 there, I'm going to tell you, it's showing up 01:17:42.819 --> 01:17:45.579 in your work everywhere you look if you know 01:17:45.579 --> 01:17:50.500 how to look for it. And so once that's easy, 01:17:50.979 --> 01:17:54.560 the dog can take three tiny jogging steps where 01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:57.819 nobody's excited. and the down is prompt and 01:17:57.819 --> 01:18:01.739 obedient, I can start to add a little more arousal. 01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:04.260 And even for those dogs, I'm going to ration 01:18:04.260 --> 01:18:09.420 the arousal. So I might jog three steps and lay 01:18:09.420 --> 01:18:14.939 the dog down. Do five seconds of body work and 01:18:14.939 --> 01:18:17.960 walk around the dog in a circle like I'm testing 01:18:17.960 --> 01:18:20.479 the stay. Work a little duration on the down. 01:18:20.539 --> 01:18:22.579 So I might be in arousal for literally a count 01:18:22.579 --> 01:18:25.020 of three. One, two, three. And then it's got 01:18:25.020 --> 01:18:29.520 to be arousal down or the dog is already by habit 01:18:29.520 --> 01:18:32.520 going to a place that I don't want him to be. 01:18:36.079 --> 01:18:38.960 And I work it from there until I could have them 01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:41.840 in high, high, I mean, peel them off the ceiling 01:18:41.840 --> 01:18:45.640 arousal and tell them down and it would be prompt 01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:47.319 and obedient and I could walk out the door and 01:18:47.319 --> 01:18:50.880 they'd never break the stay. See, and that's 01:18:50.880 --> 01:18:53.939 the thing, like, because we had talked about 01:18:53.939 --> 01:18:57.399 it in the beginning, like, I love, I love that. 01:18:58.619 --> 01:19:03.279 I like the hot flaming dog. I like them like 01:19:03.279 --> 01:19:06.100 that. But I like it a little too much to the 01:19:06.100 --> 01:19:10.779 detriment of the dog's emotion, right? Like that's 01:19:10.779 --> 01:19:14.260 the bad part. And especially if you don't understand 01:19:14.260 --> 01:19:16.979 the dog's native language and you're reading 01:19:16.979 --> 01:19:21.000 arousal as happiness or excitement, you're fucked. 01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:25.020 Yeah, which is what I thought it was. Because 01:19:25.020 --> 01:19:31.579 then your entire judgment is based on a lie. 01:19:33.739 --> 01:19:37.939 Yep. Every decision you make is based on the 01:19:37.939 --> 01:19:43.439 wrong premise. And so that whole really understanding 01:19:43.439 --> 01:19:47.920 how do dogs, how do dogs work with each other? 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:51.079 Like, what is their native language about? One 01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:53.600 of the first books I wrote was about canine body 01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:57.520 language, for God's sake. Why? Because everything 01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.640 is based on that. If you're not reading the dog, 01:20:00.779 --> 01:20:02.779 you're not even having the same conversation. 01:20:03.039 --> 01:20:06.079 And we're already in a very dangerous place with 01:20:06.079 --> 01:20:08.619 animals because sensorily their world and yours 01:20:08.619 --> 01:20:13.399 are not even close. You know, a dog is kind of 01:20:13.399 --> 01:20:18.760 green -red colorblind. It's about 20 % blurred. 01:20:19.380 --> 01:20:22.380 Their depth perception is very different than 01:20:22.380 --> 01:20:27.560 yours. All those things are already. vastly different. 01:20:27.640 --> 01:20:31.000 What you see and what they see and are perceiving, 01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:36.760 not the same world. So now if you add, I can't 01:20:36.760 --> 01:20:39.840 read your body language accurately on top of 01:20:39.840 --> 01:20:43.619 that, that's where that, what I call that chasm 01:20:43.619 --> 01:20:47.420 comes in. That chasm between what you think is 01:20:47.420 --> 01:20:49.880 going on and what the dog's perception is of 01:20:49.880 --> 01:20:52.439 what is going on can be vastly different there. 01:20:56.779 --> 01:21:00.739 And so the native language of the animal you're 01:21:00.739 --> 01:21:04.220 training is a pretty big deal. And then you can 01:21:04.220 --> 01:21:08.619 factor in things like a horse's vision is creepy 01:21:08.619 --> 01:21:11.939 as all get out. And people punish horses for 01:21:11.939 --> 01:21:14.739 shying all the time. Well, I'm not saying that 01:21:14.739 --> 01:21:17.800 you need to let them do it or encourage it, but 01:21:17.800 --> 01:21:22.619 you had better realize that they're. Their perception 01:21:22.619 --> 01:21:25.119 of what's going on, they see in this weird, narrow, 01:21:25.220 --> 01:21:30.300 horizontal line that's really wide. And again, 01:21:30.500 --> 01:21:33.659 there's not a clarity of color like we have. 01:21:34.260 --> 01:21:40.039 There's not a clarity of like the blurriness 01:21:40.039 --> 01:21:43.460 is there as well. They're also seeing things 01:21:43.460 --> 01:21:48.260 a little magnified in a strange way. When you're 01:21:48.260 --> 01:21:50.140 jumping a horse, which I don't do, by the way, 01:21:50.180 --> 01:21:52.279 I'm too much too chicken for that. But when you're 01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:55.180 jumping, the horse can't see the jump about two 01:21:55.180 --> 01:21:59.000 strides out. They're jumping blind. Wow. Wow. 01:21:59.560 --> 01:22:03.979 Yeah. And, you know, humans, I don't know how 01:22:03.979 --> 01:22:06.500 much good it does us really, but we get about 01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:09.600 33 % of our brain is prefrontal cortex, executive 01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:14.060 decision -making area. How much do you think 01:22:14.060 --> 01:22:17.069 a dog gets? I always love to ask this question 01:22:17.069 --> 01:22:19.149 because nobody gets it right. I didn't either. 01:22:19.529 --> 01:22:22.189 So maybe it's just justification for my own stupidity 01:22:22.189 --> 01:22:28.109 again. I thought, well, they've got to have at 01:22:28.109 --> 01:22:33.670 least 10, right? Yeah. Because we see them, right? 01:22:33.750 --> 01:22:35.670 Like they make some amazing decisions. We've 01:22:35.670 --> 01:22:38.729 all seen their dogs go. We go, that is so smart. 01:22:38.869 --> 01:22:42.029 Like, right? Good decision. We say, good decision. 01:22:42.430 --> 01:22:46.979 Well, that's a whole nother. category again. 01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:49.779 You know, there are people like Robert Sapolsky 01:22:49.779 --> 01:22:51.840 and Sam Hill who don't even think humans have 01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:57.239 free will. So there you go. But the idea that 01:22:57.239 --> 01:23:02.039 we base like our behavior is so much based on 01:23:02.039 --> 01:23:05.260 how much we have for executive decision making 01:23:05.260 --> 01:23:09.699 is astonishing. And we have self -awareness so 01:23:09.699 --> 01:23:12.039 we can modify our own behavior. Remember, your 01:23:12.039 --> 01:23:14.140 dog does not have self -awareness. He cannot 01:23:14.140 --> 01:23:17.979 possibly modify his own behavior. Right. Right. 01:23:18.020 --> 01:23:19.960 And I think Robert's supposed to be like, they're 01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:24.439 weird right now. They're driven 100%. Which is 01:23:24.439 --> 01:23:26.899 hard because we stand there in the ring and we're 01:23:26.899 --> 01:23:29.239 like, why are you acting like a weirdo? Stop 01:23:29.239 --> 01:23:34.479 acting like that. And really, they have no perception 01:23:34.479 --> 01:23:38.550 of that. They don't because they're basing everything 01:23:38.550 --> 01:23:44.729 they do from what the environment, and you are 01:23:44.729 --> 01:23:48.630 part of the environment, is cuing them to do 01:23:48.630 --> 01:23:51.670 and how they're prioritizing the environment. 01:23:51.869 --> 01:23:54.390 So once again, if you aren't prioritized over 01:23:54.390 --> 01:23:57.430 the environment in your daily training, there 01:23:57.430 --> 01:23:59.630 is no hope when the rubber hits the road in the 01:23:59.630 --> 01:24:03.869 ring. They don't have any background to do that. 01:24:05.089 --> 01:24:10.270 Then I think we're also taking a look at, so 01:24:10.270 --> 01:24:12.989 how much prefrontal cortex does a dog have? 5%. 01:24:12.989 --> 01:24:16.289 That's why it looks like they don't have any 01:24:16.289 --> 01:24:21.350 impulse controls because they don't. Right, right. 01:24:21.949 --> 01:24:26.010 And a horse doesn't have any. A horse does not 01:24:26.010 --> 01:24:28.850 have a detectable area for a prefrontal cortex. 01:24:29.390 --> 01:24:32.409 So that makes riding even stupider than we originally 01:24:32.409 --> 01:24:34.630 think. Like, why would I get on 1 ,200 pounds? 01:24:34.750 --> 01:24:38.470 That's only a reflex, right? Right. A reflex. 01:24:39.029 --> 01:24:42.729 But it does give you a different way to approach 01:24:42.729 --> 01:24:48.630 your training in so many ways. Because when you're 01:24:48.630 --> 01:24:53.609 not counting on self -awareness, morality, you 01:24:53.609 --> 01:24:55.390 know, or any of those things that we can count 01:24:55.390 --> 01:24:59.869 on with humans. I think you can start to frame 01:24:59.869 --> 01:25:01.829 your training very differently and much more 01:25:01.829 --> 01:25:05.350 helpful to the animal. So, you know, as far as 01:25:05.350 --> 01:25:08.210 impulse control goes with dogs, we are forever 01:25:08.210 --> 01:25:11.029 the Jiminy Cricket on their shoulders. Right? 01:25:11.130 --> 01:25:13.789 If I'm present, my dogs have impulse control. 01:25:13.850 --> 01:25:19.430 And if I don't, they don't. Unless I've classically 01:25:19.430 --> 01:25:21.569 conditioned impulse control to something else. 01:25:23.970 --> 01:25:28.609 Hmm. I don't know, man. I'm present, and Zaina 01:25:28.609 --> 01:25:34.229 still doesn't have impulse control. Well, right? 01:25:34.310 --> 01:25:40.289 Nothing is a given, is it? I know. Because with 01:25:40.289 --> 01:25:44.210 the Terriers, they were so impulsive and so reflexive. 01:25:46.270 --> 01:25:49.210 You know, I look back, and with the skill set 01:25:49.210 --> 01:25:52.970 I have, the fact that I got those Terriers anywhere. 01:25:53.770 --> 01:25:56.470 without being constantly embarrassed instead 01:25:56.470 --> 01:26:00.050 of occasionally is kind of miraculous in and 01:26:00.050 --> 01:26:03.210 of itself because the smooth fox terriers, even 01:26:03.210 --> 01:26:05.250 in the terrier group, are known for having no 01:26:05.250 --> 01:26:09.350 impulse control. And I always said the difference 01:26:09.350 --> 01:26:11.890 between a wire fox and a smooth fox is that you 01:26:11.890 --> 01:26:14.010 take that wire fox by the chin hairs and say, 01:26:14.109 --> 01:26:17.710 dude, I am not kidding you. They'll like, okay, 01:26:17.829 --> 01:26:19.810 glance at their watch and say, you've got three 01:26:19.810 --> 01:26:22.630 seconds. And your smooth would look at you and 01:26:22.630 --> 01:26:28.149 say, you're kidding, right? So anything that 01:26:28.149 --> 01:26:32.090 I trained was an improvement on that, which was 01:26:32.090 --> 01:26:35.800 very helpful. I also think the key is like, and 01:26:35.800 --> 01:26:38.979 this is where people struggle, and you made a 01:26:38.979 --> 01:26:43.380 really key point more than once, is they have 01:26:43.380 --> 01:26:45.840 to have mechanical skills first, right? Because 01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:49.680 if they don't, they can't even process. Like, 01:26:49.720 --> 01:26:52.720 this is where I struggle as an instructor. Like, 01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:56.039 I'm always trying to explain, I am trying to 01:26:56.039 --> 01:27:02.619 train my students to be dog trainers. Yes. And 01:27:02.619 --> 01:27:06.800 they're just trying to learn how to teach behaviors. 01:27:07.000 --> 01:27:11.000 Right. And then I'm like, dude, didn't you see 01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:14.000 like you were looking right at your dog. You 01:27:14.000 --> 01:27:16.260 did not see that happen. They're like, nope. 01:27:16.359 --> 01:27:19.659 And I'm like, how? How is that possible? Because 01:27:19.659 --> 01:27:23.279 they don't have those mechanical skills yet. 01:27:23.319 --> 01:27:27.220 You know how people would. He used to say, are 01:27:27.220 --> 01:27:29.479 you good at multitasking? And people would say, 01:27:29.539 --> 01:27:31.159 yes. And I would have been one of those. Yeah, 01:27:31.300 --> 01:27:34.279 I am amazing at multitasking. And then you find 01:27:34.279 --> 01:27:36.359 out that actually, technically, that's never 01:27:36.359 --> 01:27:39.279 true. And if you think you're good at it, it's 01:27:39.279 --> 01:27:41.319 just because you have an inflated sense of yourself 01:27:41.319 --> 01:27:44.180 that, you know, you're just as pissy at it as 01:27:44.180 --> 01:27:47.539 everybody else. So they don't even call it multitasking 01:27:47.539 --> 01:27:50.319 anymore. It's now task switching. Because what 01:27:50.319 --> 01:27:52.880 we know is if I'm doing 10 tasks, my brain has 01:27:52.880 --> 01:27:55.119 to do a little of this one, switch to this one, 01:27:55.140 --> 01:27:56.880 switch to this one, just like a computer chip, 01:27:56.880 --> 01:28:06.520 eh? So when you think about how that works, thank 01:28:06.520 --> 01:28:10.159 God we're all really bad at it because humans 01:28:10.159 --> 01:28:12.659 are bad at it. But guess what? Dogs are worse. 01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:18.039 that's your open door man that's your in they 01:28:18.039 --> 01:28:20.260 can't be distracted if you're bothering them 01:28:20.260 --> 01:28:25.300 enough so the thing is what i want the reason 01:28:25.300 --> 01:28:29.520 you got the terriers to do what you got them 01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:34.619 to do and the pony is because what you am i what 01:28:34.619 --> 01:28:39.500 i believe you did was because in a way they were 01:28:39.500 --> 01:28:42.720 challenging right like i always say like i wish 01:28:42.720 --> 01:28:46.119 i could give Some of my students, Zane had to 01:28:46.119 --> 01:28:48.539 train for a few days because they would be such 01:28:48.539 --> 01:28:51.260 better trainers. They would. Because they're 01:28:51.260 --> 01:28:55.159 going to hold, she will 300 % hold you accountable. 01:28:55.180 --> 01:28:59.000 And she has no patience, no tolerance for humans 01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:03.199 and their inconsistencies and their shenanigans. 01:29:03.220 --> 01:29:06.869 Like she's like, dude. No, you are dead wrong. 01:29:06.989 --> 01:29:09.670 And I am going to yell at you for doing it dead 01:29:09.670 --> 01:29:13.310 wrong. Right. So when you have certain situations, 01:29:13.489 --> 01:29:17.250 you must learn to read the dog. Like you have 01:29:17.250 --> 01:29:21.829 no other choice, but to learn to communicate 01:29:21.829 --> 01:29:27.500 with the animal. In a way that the animal understands. 01:29:27.939 --> 01:29:32.720 We've bred dogs. I think a lot of dogs have been 01:29:32.720 --> 01:29:38.920 bred to be super tolerant for humans. And they'll 01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:43.840 tolerate an enormous amount of like. Bullshit. 01:29:44.039 --> 01:29:48.460 Yeah, because we're training them like. using 01:29:48.460 --> 01:29:53.279 our human brain and putting our human behaviors 01:29:53.279 --> 01:29:57.439 and thoughts and feelings onto it. Instead of, 01:29:57.439 --> 01:30:02.640 instead of learning how to read the dog, I almost 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:06.100 feel like in a weird way, like that should come 01:30:06.100 --> 01:30:09.699 first. Like everyone's like immediately clicker 01:30:09.699 --> 01:30:12.479 cookies, clicker cookies, or, you know, Q like 01:30:12.479 --> 01:30:17.619 say yes, cookie. And it's like the whole, wait 01:30:17.619 --> 01:30:20.279 a minute, learn who this dog is. How does this 01:30:20.279 --> 01:30:23.220 dog communicate? How does this dog see the world? 01:30:23.340 --> 01:30:28.760 What makes this dog tick? Like that's secondary 01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:33.079 and it should be primary. It should be primary. 01:30:33.380 --> 01:30:37.140 But remember, how many dogs a day did you handle? 01:30:37.279 --> 01:30:41.960 Do you handle? well I mean like just well I have 01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:44.739 said that right in all fairness like first of 01:30:44.739 --> 01:30:48.060 all I'm obsessed so I've watched a million YouTube 01:30:48.060 --> 01:30:51.859 videos I watch my dogs obsessively when I did 01:30:51.859 --> 01:30:55.239 rehab I worked on a million dogs and there it's 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:57.560 like you better read their behavior or you're 01:30:57.560 --> 01:31:00.420 gonna get bit right like Lori had said like she 01:31:00.420 --> 01:31:05.409 was a vet right Yeah, one time I had, I don't 01:31:05.409 --> 01:31:07.869 know, 12 dogs in the house and I boarded between 01:31:07.869 --> 01:31:13.050 20 and 60 a day. Yeah. And I put them in playgroups. 01:31:13.050 --> 01:31:14.869 I mean, there were playgroups of one, don't get 01:31:14.869 --> 01:31:20.810 me wrong. But that kind of volume hones your 01:31:20.810 --> 01:31:25.229 ability. But here's what I do say. You can learn 01:31:25.229 --> 01:31:28.890 to read your dog. You know, students, they can 01:31:28.890 --> 01:31:32.720 at least learn to read their own dog. It's an, 01:31:32.779 --> 01:31:37.119 it feels difficult as an instructor because like 01:31:37.119 --> 01:31:39.619 you say, I'm always like, well, did you see that? 01:31:39.739 --> 01:31:42.979 And they're like, nope. And I'm like, all righty 01:31:42.979 --> 01:31:46.119 then. I do some filming when I'm instructing. 01:31:47.140 --> 01:31:50.000 I try to explain it, you know, you point out 01:31:50.000 --> 01:31:52.460 the errors and everything. But even at that, 01:31:52.520 --> 01:31:56.100 sometimes even Diane, my assistant trainer should 01:31:56.100 --> 01:31:58.079 be like, you got to remember, we're not seeing 01:31:58.079 --> 01:32:01.859 what you're seeing. And I think that that makes 01:32:01.859 --> 01:32:04.100 it sometimes difficult to relate to a student. 01:32:05.500 --> 01:32:09.260 Well, I think I've kind of figured that out. 01:32:09.359 --> 01:32:11.279 And I'm like, yeah, you just have to be patient 01:32:11.279 --> 01:32:16.380 with that. But I just want students to understand, 01:32:16.640 --> 01:32:20.199 like, I think that's why I emphasize it so much. 01:32:20.279 --> 01:32:23.060 And we emphasize it on this podcast, like constantly, 01:32:23.260 --> 01:32:26.119 you know, read your dog, watch videos, watch 01:32:26.119 --> 01:32:29.819 them in life. But having said all that. like 01:32:29.819 --> 01:32:33.380 just to put everything full circle back in perspective 01:32:33.380 --> 01:32:36.920 like I was at the trial this weekend Lori will 01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:40.579 attest to this and I'm like banging my head against 01:32:40.579 --> 01:32:43.060 the wall like I know what is Zesty's problem 01:32:43.060 --> 01:32:46.319 is he distracted or is he worried or is he this 01:32:46.319 --> 01:32:51.279 or is he that like um right because when it's 01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:55.479 your dog and when it's something it's a totally 01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:58.460 different ball game Right. And when it's that 01:32:58.460 --> 01:33:02.399 thing you're looking for. So that piece is hard 01:33:02.399 --> 01:33:05.319 being objective about that. And that thing where 01:33:05.319 --> 01:33:09.199 like dogs will look a certain way. Like, for 01:33:09.199 --> 01:33:14.279 example, Zesty can look like he's dying, like 01:33:14.279 --> 01:33:18.560 he's so stressed out, like he has these big droopy 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:22.720 sad eyes and he just looks like he's dying. And 01:33:22.720 --> 01:33:24.760 I'm like, oh, my God, he's stressed. He's under 01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:28.840 pressure. And he's distracted. And I'm like, 01:33:28.859 --> 01:33:33.899 God damn it. You don't look distracted, you little 01:33:33.899 --> 01:33:37.600 liar. Well, and then there's the dog that looks 01:33:37.600 --> 01:33:40.439 better than they are and the dog that looks worse 01:33:40.439 --> 01:33:43.319 than they are. You know, I have a dog and it 01:33:43.319 --> 01:33:45.100 looks really, really stressed, but it'll take 01:33:45.100 --> 01:33:46.600 a treat from me. And I'm like, well, you can't 01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:50.149 be that stressed, dude. Right? And I think then 01:33:50.149 --> 01:33:55.430 there's those nuances and dogs have to use the 01:33:55.430 --> 01:34:00.270 same signal for different things. The way I usually 01:34:00.270 --> 01:34:02.909 explain it at a body language clinic would be 01:34:02.909 --> 01:34:07.890 my daughter was graduating, getting her master 01:34:07.890 --> 01:34:09.670 of fine arts from the Iowa Writers Workshop. 01:34:09.970 --> 01:34:12.850 She says, I want a dictionary. Well, I'm like, 01:34:12.949 --> 01:34:15.489 we have this dictionary. It's like a paperback 01:34:15.489 --> 01:34:18.229 Webster's, right? And she's like, no, no, no, 01:34:18.250 --> 01:34:20.739 no, no. I need this dictionary. This dictionary 01:34:20.739 --> 01:34:24.119 had like 10 volumes that were a hundred bucks 01:34:24.119 --> 01:34:28.739 a piece. Oh my God. And it was filled with millions 01:34:28.739 --> 01:34:31.060 and millions and millions of words that we use 01:34:31.060 --> 01:34:34.300 to describe the environment around us in our 01:34:34.300 --> 01:34:40.460 internal states. And dogs don't have that. Even 01:34:40.460 --> 01:34:42.560 at a clinic, I'm like, I want you to name every 01:34:42.560 --> 01:34:46.180 part of a dog's body they use to speak with. 01:34:48.510 --> 01:34:53.229 You can barely get to 15. Even if you start including 01:34:53.229 --> 01:34:57.029 things like blinking and breathing. You know, 01:34:57.090 --> 01:34:59.909 they got their tail. They got their body, their 01:34:59.909 --> 01:35:03.470 ears. They have tension. They have breathing. 01:35:03.489 --> 01:35:06.989 They have blinking. I'm only to six. Right, right. 01:35:07.189 --> 01:35:10.869 They don't have that much to work with. And they 01:35:10.869 --> 01:35:14.659 don't have self -awareness. Your dog is actually, 01:35:14.760 --> 01:35:17.560 A, talking all the time. Every move they make 01:35:17.560 --> 01:35:22.460 is language to each other. Yeah. And because 01:35:22.460 --> 01:35:26.460 they don't have very many body parts, you have 01:35:26.460 --> 01:35:28.140 to start to, people are always like, well, I 01:35:28.140 --> 01:35:30.600 want to watch the tail. And I'm like, well, it's 01:35:30.600 --> 01:35:33.960 not kind of about the tail. It's about if each 01:35:33.960 --> 01:35:36.560 body part were a word, there could be a sentence 01:35:36.560 --> 01:35:39.199 and then there's a context. So if I ask you to 01:35:39.199 --> 01:35:42.079 spell the word two, how would you spell it? Right. 01:35:43.069 --> 01:35:46.789 Right. Two, T -O, two as in also T -O -O or two 01:35:46.789 --> 01:35:50.109 as in the number T -W -O. And so what you have 01:35:50.109 --> 01:35:52.630 to do with the dog is if all they can say is 01:35:52.630 --> 01:35:54.510 two, you've got to figure out that context to 01:35:54.510 --> 01:35:57.470 figure out what is going on. And I feel like 01:35:57.470 --> 01:35:59.310 the ears and the tail, which people think are 01:35:59.310 --> 01:36:01.590 the biggest want to say are the biggest indicators, 01:36:01.850 --> 01:36:04.729 are really not. To me, those are the nuances. 01:36:05.470 --> 01:36:09.930 So they're like an adverb, you know, or an adjective, 01:36:09.989 --> 01:36:16.100 something like that, not a noun. And then there's, 01:36:16.100 --> 01:36:21.319 as you say, factoring that into, okay, I'm going 01:36:21.319 --> 01:36:23.020 to read the dog's body language and I have to 01:36:23.020 --> 01:36:26.840 make a judgment on it to help us out. And not 01:36:26.840 --> 01:36:29.520 really knowing what judgment you should make 01:36:29.520 --> 01:36:33.819 because they're using the same body part. Well, 01:36:33.979 --> 01:36:37.340 now I don't feel quite it. I feel only marginally 01:36:37.340 --> 01:36:42.750 less dumb. Yeah, but it happens to all of us. 01:36:42.770 --> 01:36:45.630 You know, sometimes if I've got a group of dogs, 01:36:45.710 --> 01:36:49.989 I can only tell what one dog is doing by the 01:36:49.989 --> 01:36:53.130 other dogs. Does that make any sense? Yeah. If 01:36:53.130 --> 01:36:55.229 I've got a group of dogs and everybody's looking 01:36:55.229 --> 01:36:57.569 pretty good, but I have one dog that suddenly 01:36:57.569 --> 01:37:01.189 leaves the group, there is a reason that dog 01:37:01.189 --> 01:37:03.930 left the group. And it's possibly that one of 01:37:03.930 --> 01:37:05.329 the other dogs in the group said, get the hell 01:37:05.329 --> 01:37:08.430 out of here. Nobody wants you here. And that 01:37:08.430 --> 01:37:11.189 signal that they might do for that would be so 01:37:11.189 --> 01:37:14.029 subtle. But you know, Pedro, when we teach the 01:37:14.029 --> 01:37:16.829 dogs to have attention, the way I know your dogs 01:37:16.829 --> 01:37:18.750 have attention, Lori, I'm sure you're doing the 01:37:18.750 --> 01:37:23.090 same thing. We can use that if they flick their 01:37:23.090 --> 01:37:26.869 eyes. That's a gauge. It can be too much arousal. 01:37:27.470 --> 01:37:31.960 It can be distraction. But on some level, also, 01:37:32.039 --> 01:37:34.140 you can go kind of radical behaviorist, which 01:37:34.140 --> 01:37:37.000 means when I'm doing shelter work, I don't have 01:37:37.000 --> 01:37:40.140 a clinical history. I have nothing. I've got 01:37:40.140 --> 01:37:42.399 a dog in front of me doing whatever it's doing. 01:37:43.020 --> 01:37:48.539 And so I just basically say the dog is doing 01:37:48.539 --> 01:37:55.500 X. I'm going to teach it to do Y. You know, the 01:37:55.500 --> 01:37:57.560 dog is jumping all over me. I'm going to step 01:37:57.560 --> 01:37:59.479 into them until they put their feet on the floor. 01:38:00.230 --> 01:38:02.409 I'm not even going to sit. I don't have time. 01:38:02.489 --> 01:38:04.890 I'm working as shelter dogs. So yeah, sometimes 01:38:04.890 --> 01:38:07.409 I tell students that I'm like, if we're not sure 01:38:07.409 --> 01:38:09.810 what's going on, we're like, okay, let's just 01:38:09.810 --> 01:38:13.810 get it to do like the other thing. I think it's 01:38:13.810 --> 01:38:16.470 always that thing. I think what I'm referring 01:38:16.470 --> 01:38:21.409 to is that like, in this case, which is what 01:38:21.409 --> 01:38:22.930 we talked about at the beginning, which is that 01:38:22.930 --> 01:38:27.029 super subtle thing, you know, where it's like, 01:38:27.090 --> 01:38:30.979 you're On the same page, the dog's giving you 01:38:30.979 --> 01:38:34.819 the same energy. Like you're both in sync, you 01:38:34.819 --> 01:38:38.039 know. You're just directing them to that desired 01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:40.439 behavior that already has a reinforcement history 01:38:40.439 --> 01:38:44.899 anyway. I'm sorry, say that again. You're just 01:38:44.899 --> 01:38:47.619 going to redirect the dog to the behavior that 01:38:47.619 --> 01:38:52.239 already has a reinforcement history. Like eye 01:38:52.239 --> 01:38:54.199 contact. Like if you're eye flicking, dude, you 01:38:54.199 --> 01:38:58.909 know better. You know how to do this. Yeah. And 01:38:58.909 --> 01:39:01.350 if I think it's really nervousness, then I'm 01:39:01.350 --> 01:39:02.829 probably going to do a little body work and then 01:39:02.829 --> 01:39:06.390 try it again. Because sometimes that's the only 01:39:06.390 --> 01:39:08.409 way you can figure it out. You do stuff until 01:39:08.409 --> 01:39:09.949 you're like, well, that works. Until you figure 01:39:09.949 --> 01:39:12.810 it out. Yeah. You just start cycling through 01:39:12.810 --> 01:39:16.829 things until something works. And that thing 01:39:16.829 --> 01:39:19.609 that works might be different in different circumstances 01:39:19.609 --> 01:39:23.029 even. To be super helpful to people who are listening. 01:39:23.789 --> 01:39:26.649 Like we don't know either really. And we're just 01:39:26.649 --> 01:39:30.470 guessing as well. Well, and that is what it is 01:39:30.470 --> 01:39:33.449 sometimes, right? Is experimentation. And that's 01:39:33.449 --> 01:39:36.329 another area. I feel like the dog community, 01:39:36.529 --> 01:39:39.130 training community or sport community tends to 01:39:39.130 --> 01:39:41.369 be weakened, right? Because it's like this fear 01:39:41.369 --> 01:39:46.510 of like, well, I don't want to try it. Like they'd 01:39:46.510 --> 01:39:52.350 rather do. insanity right the same thing over 01:39:52.350 --> 01:39:54.350 and over again hoping for a different result 01:39:54.350 --> 01:39:56.850 because this is the way it's always been done 01:39:56.850 --> 01:39:58.989 or this is the way everyone says to do it or 01:39:58.989 --> 01:40:02.590 whatever then Try a different way. Cause it might 01:40:02.590 --> 01:40:05.229 not work. And then what my whole world is going 01:40:05.229 --> 01:40:07.390 to come to an end. Everything's ruined. It's 01:40:07.390 --> 01:40:10.270 never, you know, and I'm always like, guys, just 01:40:10.270 --> 01:40:12.810 try it. It's okay. Like if it doesn't work out, 01:40:12.930 --> 01:40:14.970 we'll try something else. And if that doesn't 01:40:14.970 --> 01:40:16.909 work, we'll try something else. Yeah. You're, 01:40:16.909 --> 01:40:19.430 you're training the most forgiving species on 01:40:19.430 --> 01:40:26.529 God's green earth. Seriously. So there you go. 01:40:27.260 --> 01:40:29.720 I think there's that you have to give people 01:40:29.720 --> 01:40:33.899 permission to experiment. But then you also can't 01:40:33.899 --> 01:40:35.920 say, oh, it didn't work because I did it twice. 01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:38.199 And so I'm going to change. And people don't 01:40:38.199 --> 01:40:41.140 really know the difference of that either. You 01:40:41.140 --> 01:40:43.260 know, we've all got the student that goes and 01:40:43.260 --> 01:40:45.939 I somebody said this and somebody said that and 01:40:45.939 --> 01:40:47.500 somebody said that. And I took a poll with the 01:40:47.500 --> 01:40:49.699 show and and everybody says all these things 01:40:49.699 --> 01:40:51.420 and then they go try all these things. Well, 01:40:51.539 --> 01:40:58.090 if they're not coherent. I mean, I have. Yeah. 01:40:58.189 --> 01:41:00.310 I mean, once I started taking lessons from Bettina, 01:41:00.449 --> 01:41:04.270 she did things in such a specific way that I 01:41:04.270 --> 01:41:07.449 will take lessons from her or one of her students. 01:41:07.489 --> 01:41:10.750 No, she's gone from me. I cannot hug her in person 01:41:10.750 --> 01:41:14.550 anymore. So I have a student of hers who is really 01:41:14.550 --> 01:41:17.989 good. And I go to Liz now. Liz is my trainer 01:41:17.989 --> 01:41:24.539 now. Because if I go to other people. They don't 01:41:24.539 --> 01:41:27.659 necessarily know what I have on board. Right? 01:41:27.779 --> 01:41:31.819 Right. I never discourage my students from going 01:41:31.819 --> 01:41:34.939 to see different people, but I do tell them that 01:41:34.939 --> 01:41:37.619 they need to philosophically know that that person 01:41:37.619 --> 01:41:41.119 is at least in the realm philosophically of where 01:41:41.119 --> 01:41:45.359 they're thinking they want to be. Right. Yes. 01:41:45.560 --> 01:41:49.119 You can't. Right. It has to kind of fall in line. 01:41:49.579 --> 01:41:52.619 Or you have to adapt it so that it kind of falls 01:41:52.619 --> 01:41:55.439 in line with the philosophy of how you've been 01:41:55.439 --> 01:41:57.560 training your dog. Like, I'm really good at, 01:41:57.579 --> 01:42:00.479 like, I say bastardizing something, right? Like, 01:42:00.500 --> 01:42:02.659 hear something somewhere and then go, hmm, how 01:42:02.659 --> 01:42:06.449 can I apply that? what i do yeah exactly yeah 01:42:06.449 --> 01:42:08.909 in a way like with how we do it and you have 01:42:08.909 --> 01:42:12.250 to try it long enough that you can you can't 01:42:12.250 --> 01:42:14.390 really do it for a week or two and then go try 01:42:14.390 --> 01:42:17.210 the show and then go well it didn't work well 01:42:17.210 --> 01:42:19.630 i don't know did you really do it long enough 01:42:19.630 --> 01:42:24.369 is it you know because or yeah it was a little 01:42:24.369 --> 01:42:26.670 better at the trial than it wasn't well okay 01:42:26.670 --> 01:42:29.789 that's really good it held up for part of the 01:42:29.789 --> 01:42:34.149 trial keep at it until it holds up for the whole 01:42:34.149 --> 01:42:38.810 child um to be able to make a determination about 01:42:38.810 --> 01:42:42.729 the data you've collected right yeah and it's 01:42:42.729 --> 01:42:45.869 that data collection right that's so important 01:42:45.869 --> 01:42:51.399 like um collecting data right and analyzing data 01:42:51.399 --> 01:42:54.920 and writing it down like if i say to somebody 01:42:54.920 --> 01:42:57.359 how many months have you been doing this like 01:42:57.359 --> 01:42:59.180 my my poor training partner i throw him under 01:42:59.180 --> 01:43:01.819 the bus all the time but he's he writes it all 01:43:01.819 --> 01:43:03.840 down now but he didn't used to so i'd go dude 01:43:03.840 --> 01:43:06.000 how many months have you been working on this 01:43:06.000 --> 01:43:08.560 oh two i'm like try five and i'm like and it's 01:43:08.560 --> 01:43:11.819 not even my dog so what are you doing like how 01:43:11.819 --> 01:43:14.239 do you how can you tell me it's two months you 01:43:14.239 --> 01:43:16.899 need to write it down because if you're not keeping 01:43:16.899 --> 01:43:20.439 track, how do you know? Like how, at what point 01:43:20.439 --> 01:43:22.699 do you know this is working or this isn't working? 01:43:22.779 --> 01:43:25.420 Or I've tried this, I've tried that. Like, if 01:43:25.420 --> 01:43:29.100 you don't keep track, you're never, you know, 01:43:29.119 --> 01:43:33.840 it should be more scientific or more thoughtful, 01:43:34.000 --> 01:43:37.760 right? Like, yes, I experiment, but within that, 01:43:37.819 --> 01:43:40.659 I am keeping track of like, okay, I've tried 01:43:40.659 --> 01:43:44.670 this and I tried it long enough. that I know 01:43:44.670 --> 01:43:48.329 it did or did not work, right? Yeah, and if you're 01:43:48.329 --> 01:43:50.789 constructing, you've got an advantage because 01:43:50.789 --> 01:43:53.949 you can try to cross, you know, a series of 20 01:43:53.949 --> 01:43:57.149 to 100 dogs and start to feel baselines from 01:43:57.149 --> 01:44:03.069 there too. Yeah. I'm going to interrupt you guys 01:44:03.069 --> 01:44:06.430 because I'm going to have to exit. Oh, we don't 01:44:06.430 --> 01:44:10.329 leave, Lori. I'm sorry. I have students waiting. 01:44:12.750 --> 01:44:16.350 Where are your priorities? I could sit here all 01:44:16.350 --> 01:44:18.729 day. And your students will be glad you chose 01:44:18.729 --> 01:44:22.569 them. That's right. That's right. You have good 01:44:22.569 --> 01:44:26.069 students. Yeah. Thanks, Brenda. Thank you so 01:44:26.069 --> 01:44:29.409 much. Thank you for inviting me. I had way, way, 01:44:29.430 --> 01:44:31.770 way too much fun. I hope I didn't travel around 01:44:31.770 --> 01:44:34.229 too much with my. No, I thought this was like 01:44:34.229 --> 01:44:38.869 super good. no it was so good i feel like we 01:44:38.869 --> 01:44:42.890 need to have you on eight more times as long 01:44:42.890 --> 01:44:45.170 as you guys can stand it that's fine oh we would 01:44:45.170 --> 01:44:49.369 love it so good so good all right are you guys 01:44:49.369 --> 01:44:52.029 are you guys continue i'll wrap it up but brenda 01:44:52.029 --> 01:44:54.689 just don't go i just want to say goodbye off 01:44:54.689 --> 01:44:57.409 to the side but um so everybody thank you so 01:44:57.409 --> 01:44:59.770 much everybody thank you for having um thank 01:44:59.770 --> 01:45:03.409 you A million times, Brenda, for coming on. You 01:45:03.409 --> 01:45:06.149 guys should all go check out her website because 01:45:06.149 --> 01:45:13.050 her stuff is so good. And yeah. Thank you, Brenda. 01:45:13.130 --> 01:45:15.489 Thanks, everybody. Thank you. It's lovely to 01:45:15.489 --> 01:45:17.430 be here. Okay.