WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Canine Connection podcast. Today,

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Lori and I are super excited to have Jen Michaelis.

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Well, actually, is that even your last? That's

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not even your last name anymore because you just

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got married. What's your last name? It's Jen

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Stellman. There you go. Congratulations. Thank

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you so much. It was my idea to have her on because

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I feel so old. Like a long, long time ago, I

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was doing physical therapy on dogs. And Jen came

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to me with a dog she had at the time, Tara, a

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canny corso. And so for physical therapy. So,

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of course, we talk because that's what we do

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at physical therapy. And then, oh, you're a trainer.

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I'm a trainer. Oh, and then all we do is talk

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training for hours on end. So one day she shows

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me this video of her doing a really long freestyle

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routine with Tara. And, you know, she goes to

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show me and in my head I'm like, oh, freestyle.

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I'm like, oh, my God. This dog was so happy,

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so animated, so bouncy pouncy through the entire

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thing. And it was long. And I am a trainer, so

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I understand, like, all we try to do, as you

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all know, Lori and I, is try to get this long

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chain of competition behaviors to be bouncy and

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pouncy and happy, and it's hard. And this is

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not a Border Collie. This is not a Golden Retriever.

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This is not a typical breed that does this kind

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of stuff. And I'm like, holy Hannah, how did

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you get your dog to do this? And she's like,

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oh, back chaining. I'm like, back what? back

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chaining. And I'm like, wait, we don't do that

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in obedience. We don't even know what that is.

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So that, and then the other, at one point, so

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she has, she had a different horse at the time.

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Sadly, this is so sad. They're all gone now,

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right? We're getting old. um so she had a horse

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so she shows me a picture of her horse and it

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was a little sway back and of course me i'm a

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pt i'm a trainer i'm like what if we can like

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manipulate the horse so that we can get it to

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like arch its back to strengthen its core blah

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blah blah so of course she goes and does it and

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i remember you telling me one time i thought

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this was Absolutely fascinating that you are.

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I don't know if you remember this. You were riding

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him. So you were on him and you're like, what

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is he doing? And you realize that he was offering

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his little exercise that you were doing with

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him. To bring his backup. Do you remember that,

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Jen? I totally do. Right? And I was like, I thought

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that was the coolest thing in the world. And

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I'm like, you should start a website on training

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your horse for conditioning, whatever. I still

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think it's pretty cool. Right? It's so cool.

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So fast forward, like you moved to the West Coast.

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So you're in. Washington state or Oregon? I'm

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in Oregon now. Oregon. Neither. They're like

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the same. Open your own school. You can tell

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everybody about, you know, what you do now. And

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now you have different dogs, but you also have

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another horse. And I see on Facebook that you're

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also doing all kinds of cool stuff. Clicker training

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the horse and rehabbing. The horse. And so I'm

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like. We have to have her on. To talk about this.

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Because like yeah. Dog training is great. But

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like the whole horse thing. I think is like.

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I trained a pig. Like I trained a pig. I remember

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that pig. Oh you met him. Right. So fascinating.

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Because he learns differently. And you know whatever.

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So anyway. That's my long intro on like the highlights

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of Jen. And like, yeah, you just sent me some

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pictures from back then with me, Tara laying

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there. I'm doing our nails. It's so great. We

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just talked forever training. But so you can

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tell us whatever you want to tell us about yourself,

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your dogs, your horses, and then we'll just talk

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training. Yeah. Amazing. I'm so lucky. I just

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get to sit here and like, talk about my animals.

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This is amazing. Best part of the day. Yeah.

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So I'm in Corvallis, Oregon now. Um, and I, I

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own and operate wonder dogs, training, wellness,

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and enrichment. And, um, I have currently in

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my household, cause you don't, you mean you don't

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even know, probably you haven't met any of them.

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I haven't met any of them. Yeah. I've seen them

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on Facebook, but I haven't met them. Yeah. I

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have, um, a beagle who just turned eight. I adopted

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her in April. So almost three years now. So I

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adopted her when she was five. Her name's Freddie.

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She's curled up in my lap right now. She is just

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an absolute love bug. And we're working on some

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freestyle stuff, but you know, she's a beagle.

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So we're doing nose work first. She said, don't

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have a great time with the nose work, of course.

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And my husband, Adam, when he moved here from

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New Mexico two years ago, he brought his two

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dogs and they're actually. honestly how like

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how we got back together was his two problem

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dogs he has a uh he's got a nine -year -old great

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pyrenees and a almost four -year -old now uh

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super much he is a min pin border collie and

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pug mix if you can imagine that oh my god i cannot

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yeah she's so she's a lot um But yeah, the dogs

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that you were talking about is Tara, my Cane

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Corso. She definitely was, she was my first dog.

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And as far as like when you consider a performance

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dog. And I was really lucky to have such a wonderful

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partner. She and I did musical freestyle pretty

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much from. Gosh, I think she was maybe eight

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months when we started doing it. She was, I mean,

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12 and a half when she passed away and she had

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just done her last show, like just a couple of

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months before that. It was amazing. Yeah, so

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much of what we were able to do was because of

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everything that you taught me in terms of her

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physicality and her fitness and her ability to

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do those things for so long and enjoy what she

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loved was because of so much of the work that

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you and I did together. Just learning how to

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help her use her body in the best way possible.

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And then you had another dog. Oh, Ringo. Yeah.

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My Chinese Crested. Yeah. He was also, he was

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a retired show dog, just like Freddie. So I adopted

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him when he was five and I didn't really think

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I was going to do any sort of performance stuff

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with him. He, but I actually ended up competing

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in freestyle with him as well. Started competing

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when he was eight. Cause I keep reminding myself

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of that when I look at Freddie and go, Oh, I

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haven't done anything with this dog. And he went

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on to earn his champion title in musical freestyle

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as well. He was a fun dog. He taught me a lot

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about working with sensitive dogs under pressure.

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That's very, very different than Tara was always

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very resilient to the pressure in the ring. But

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he was a fun dog to work with as well. And you

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had Roger was your horse, right? Roger. Yep.

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And I had him since I was, I met him when I was

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16, but I bought him when I turned 18. And yeah,

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I had him until he was 31. He passed away almost

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exactly a year ago. And yeah, he was my paint

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horse. And I started doing that rehab with him

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because at about age 20, he started having lots

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of tripping problems and issues. And, you know,

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everybody in the horse world had different opinions

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about it. But pretty much everybody came around

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to saying, well, I just shouldn't ride him anymore.

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Just don't ride him anymore. And he had just

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such a big heart and wanted to keep doing things.

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And so that's where I started doing my own sort

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of detective work and thinking, well, that can't

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be the end of the story. There's got to be more

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to it here. that's kind of what inspired my my

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rehab work with him as well so tell us about

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clicker training roger yeah i started like do

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they learn like a horse i mean i'm sorry do they

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learn like a dog or differently they're very

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they're very different i mean there's a lot of

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similarities but they're also really different

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you know i think that with horses I mean, they're

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so easily motivated by food. It's ridiculous.

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Like when you think about the size of the animal,

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right? Like Brina weighs almost 1700 pounds.

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So Roger weighed 1100 pounds and I'm giving him

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like three little pieces. They're about the same

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size of dog kibble of hay pellets. And he will

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do repetition after repetition after repetition.

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So they're so food motivated. Oh, I didn't know

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that horses were so food motivated. I didn't

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either. And I would, I would. What's that? No,

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I was just going to say, I was like, I'm sitting

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here, like imagining you in the barn doing this.

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And I'm like, I would think this huge animal

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would just push, like be pushy for the food.

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Like just repetition after repetition without

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the horse, like. Just give me the food. Like,

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push. You know what I mean? Like, that's what

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I'm imagining in my head. Like, just give it

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to me. Like, how did you even get them to, like,

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just continuously, patiently do repetition after

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repetition? Yeah, I think that's a big difference

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with horses versus dogs. They're patient to do

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many repetitions, at least in my experience.

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But I would say they can be very pushy and very

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food aggressive. They frustrate really quickly.

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And in terms of having to think about how to

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get their food, like problem solving, I don't

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really think like if you think about a horse,

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right, they have evolved to just drop their head

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and eat like the food is just all over the ground.

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It's just free. So. I think having to problem

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solve and think how to earn the food, just even

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that act can be really frustrating and they can

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get aggressive about it. Versus like a dog or

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any other social predator is used to problem

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solving to earn their food. Does that make sense?

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Yeah. So I think there's a little bit of like

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a, you know, species difference there. I definitely

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think that always the first. anybody who does

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clicker training with horses first thing you

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always do is teach them food manners and oftentimes

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from behind protected contact just to make sure

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that if they are going to overwhelm you and try

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to mug you for the food you can take a step back

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and they're behind a stall wall or something

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like that so that you can manage your safety

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Yeah. I mean, they're, they are very large and,

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and they, well, that's like what I'm like, that's

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what I was imagining. I'm like, huh. All right.

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I'm in a stall with this 17, 1800 pound horse

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that wants the freaking food in my hand. And

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what's stopping him from getting it opposed to

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like a dog, you know? Right. Right. I mean, with

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dogs, at least they're a little bit lower on

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the ground, right? You can kind of get away from

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them a little easier. Very first thing you always

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do is work on teaching them that they don't get.

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the food by reaching for it you basically teach

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them leave it right off the bat very first thing

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is it's in my hand it's in my pocket you only

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will get a click and food delivered to you if

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you are standing in your own space minding your

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own business okay okay so do they learn that

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relatively quickly like it's impulse control

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basically It is. It is. Yeah. So, of course,

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like adding duration to it and that sort of stuff

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is is certainly challenging. But I oh, gosh,

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there was a horse I was leasing when Rogers last

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couple of years. And I have a video of him learning

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this the very first time. He literally learned

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it in like five clicks, six clicks. They they

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figure it out very quickly. I I feel a lot of

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times. I have to move my criteria much faster

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with my horses than I do with my dogs. I feel

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like I have to sit down and really have my training

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plan planned out because I'm going to progress

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through my criteria a lot faster than I expect

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to. Do you think that's because the horses are

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more motivated? Because I do find, I'm going

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to go on a little tangent here, because this

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is something that I've been working on a lot.

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and really focusing on a lot with a lot of students

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is like they progress their dogs way too slow

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like ridiculously so i'm like dude come on like

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let like the dog can go way faster than that

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like so is that just a function of motivation

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like the horse learning it more quickly is it

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expectation is it like or is it just a you know

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species thing Yeah, that's a really good question.

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Honestly, I don't know if I know the answer to

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it. I could guess and speculate. Yeah, go ahead.

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Speculate away. I'm just kind of comparing the

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difference between working with Roger, who was

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a traditionally trained horse, for a much larger

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portion of his life than, for example, Brina.

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My new horse, Brina, is... So she was seven when

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I got her last year. You know, Roger, I started

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clicker training him when he was maybe 18, 19,

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20. And so he had had, you know, a long portion

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of his life being traditionally trained, which

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really focuses a lot on creating a very compliant,

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quiet horse that if we were comparing it to dog

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terms would be very much shut down. We're not

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expecting the horse to offer a lot of behavior

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or be extremely motivated and animated. So for

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him, progressing criteria was still fast. But

00:14:53.889 --> 00:14:57.029
when I compare him to Brina or my least horse

00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:01.470
spirit, he... was not as fast with, with Brina.

00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:05.110
She's extremely fast. And I honestly wonder sometimes

00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:07.750
when I work with her, if it's just the sheer

00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:10.870
internal motivation and freedom of actually being

00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:14.889
given choice agency and control. It's very reinforcing,

00:15:15.149 --> 00:15:19.190
you know, chase agency and control are very huge

00:15:19.190 --> 00:15:21.549
primary reinforcers. So for her to be given the

00:15:21.549 --> 00:15:24.009
green light and say like, yeah, give it a try.

00:15:24.090 --> 00:15:29.019
She is like, I will do this. Right. So I, I think

00:15:29.019 --> 00:15:31.620
that that is a big part of it. They are very

00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:35.820
strongly socially bonded creatures. And yeah,

00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:38.240
I mean, maybe a lot of part of it is just the

00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.500
food motivation. They're very easily motivated

00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:43.840
by food. So they could, I mean, they're used

00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.600
to eating 23 hours a day. You know, their horses

00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.620
don't need nearly as much sleep as humans and

00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:52.360
dogs do. I think they get like need truly need

00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.080
like five hours of REM sleep and then they just

00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.779
doze any other time. So they're used to being.

00:15:58.330 --> 00:16:02.330
moving on the go and eating all day they're pretty

00:16:02.330 --> 00:16:07.669
prepared for that yeah I mean I think I do think

00:16:07.669 --> 00:16:11.529
a lot of dogs are somewhat food motivated too

00:16:11.529 --> 00:16:15.870
I just feel that people they're just like one

00:16:15.870 --> 00:16:22.289
like I had somebody that I'm not I'm thinking

00:16:22.289 --> 00:16:25.090
of someone in my head don't everybody out there

00:16:25.090 --> 00:16:28.090
don't start thinking it's you okay because that's

00:16:28.090 --> 00:16:29.710
what happened last time they were like was that

00:16:29.710 --> 00:16:33.629
me I'm like no it was not you um but it's like

00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:36.370
one behavior cookie one behavior cookie one behavior

00:16:36.370 --> 00:16:39.309
cookie one behavior cookie and then it's like

00:16:40.489 --> 00:16:43.309
Um, the second you don't get a, give the dog

00:16:43.309 --> 00:16:45.429
a cookie, the dog starts going right. And then

00:16:45.429 --> 00:16:47.250
she's like, oh, the dog, you know, then the people

00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:49.529
like, oh, the dog's upset. Let me give it a cookie.

00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:51.509
And I'm like, oh my God, you're making it worse.

00:16:52.529 --> 00:16:57.389
Like, is that, I wonder if I. Do you find that?

00:16:57.409 --> 00:17:00.070
I think people just don't get like, I don't think

00:17:00.070 --> 00:17:03.370
what you just said was so profound about giving

00:17:03.370 --> 00:17:06.529
them agency, giving them the opportunity to solve

00:17:06.529 --> 00:17:10.170
a problem, to make some choices, maybe make some

00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:12.730
mistakes, but then figure it out. Like to me,

00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:16.849
that's so reinforcing in my dogs anyway. And

00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:19.809
a lot of dogs, when I get students to stop it

00:17:19.809 --> 00:17:22.529
and just stand back, like somebody said to me

00:17:22.529 --> 00:17:24.650
today, I can't say this. They're like. I did

00:17:24.650 --> 00:17:28.289
what you said. I waited. It was the longest six

00:17:28.289 --> 00:17:33.549
seconds of my life. Yeah. I'm like six seconds.

00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:36.789
Do you hear how funny that is that you just said

00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:40.630
that to me? Six seconds. But it felt like a lifetime

00:17:40.630 --> 00:17:42.910
to her. Yeah, but it's six fricking seconds.

00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:46.009
Dude, chill out. Like, and the dog figured it

00:17:46.009 --> 00:17:50.339
out. Big surprise. Yeah. I mean, I think as trainers,

00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:52.680
we have such an agenda in our brain that we were

00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.500
quick to want to bail the dog out. Like, God

00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:59.119
forbid they get frustrated. Right. But I think

00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.059
it is really important to give them the opportunity

00:18:01.059 --> 00:18:04.380
to learn and to try. And yeah, they're going

00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:06.259
to make mistakes. That's OK. That's part of the

00:18:06.259 --> 00:18:10.519
learning process. Right. And teaching the dog

00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.640
it's OK to experiment or the learner, you know,

00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:14.960
whatever species it is, teaching them it's OK

00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.539
and it's allowed to try. And they're not going

00:18:17.539 --> 00:18:18.960
to get in trouble for that. They're not going

00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.279
to get discouraged for that. But, yeah, moving

00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.779
the criteria. quickly enough is really important.

00:18:23.980 --> 00:18:25.960
Like even then when you were saying behavior

00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.339
cookie, behavior cookie, I'm already in my head

00:18:28.339 --> 00:18:30.440
counting reps and I'm like, Oh, she got to four.

00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.259
What are you going to do at five? Right. I'm,

00:18:33.259 --> 00:18:37.000
I'm definitely a big advocate of making sure

00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.700
that within five reps, you're already evaluating

00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:42.039
and you're prepared to move your criteria if

00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.460
needed to. I definitely feel that students, you

00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:47.720
know, my students as well, don't move the criteria

00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.740
fast enough. And oftentimes I. at least when

00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.259
I catch myself in that cycle, like I do find

00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:55.359
myself in that cycle with Brina. She's a very

00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.190
fast learner. It's because I haven't. been prepared

00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:02.109
enough I have not sat down and thought okay here's

00:19:02.109 --> 00:19:04.789
my training plan and I've maybe thought oh maybe

00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:06.829
I'll get through step one step two but I didn't

00:19:06.829 --> 00:19:08.990
think through three four and five and she might

00:19:08.990 --> 00:19:11.450
progress through that that quickly in terms of

00:19:11.450 --> 00:19:14.829
the criteria so oftentimes it's because I'm still

00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:17.990
processing how the criteria went in the first

00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.839
handful of reps and I'm still Not even evaluating

00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.380
it well enough to know if I'm ready to go to

00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:26.099
that next criteria, because I didn't sit down

00:19:26.099 --> 00:19:28.440
to write my training plan out well enough. Yeah.

00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:33.140
So that's the animals keeping us honest. For

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:36.900
sure. Right. So what how do you handle it when

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.220
when a horse gets frustrated? Right. Because

00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:43.039
it's the same similar scenario to dogs, obviously

00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:49.299
a lot less life threatening. But. Yeah. So how

00:19:49.299 --> 00:19:51.480
do you handle it when the horse gets frustrated?

00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:54.000
Right. Because you said they have a low frustration

00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:58.940
threshold. Yeah. I certainly will go back to

00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:01.559
asking for simpler behaviors. So it gives me

00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.160
kind of a chance to reevaluate, you know, what

00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.480
mistake did I make that actually caused that

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:09.740
frustration? A really big thing that I do a lot

00:20:09.740 --> 00:20:13.480
is work with really low value reinforcers. Like

00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:17.079
if I bring out any actual horse treats, like.

00:20:17.470 --> 00:20:19.690
I'm going to get so much motivation that I don't

00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:21.930
want it because then I'm going to also be building

00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:26.589
in conflict with that behavior. So I use very

00:20:26.589 --> 00:20:30.170
low value food reinforcers, literally just hay

00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:32.490
pellets. So it's the same stuff that she gets

00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:35.009
for free all the time. It would be the dog equivalent

00:20:35.009 --> 00:20:37.910
of just using kibble or Cheerios. You know, some

00:20:37.910 --> 00:20:40.109
dogs are very easily motivated by those. Other

00:20:40.109 --> 00:20:42.049
dogs think you're crazy if you bring that out.

00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.490
But if she does get really frustrated, a lot

00:20:46.490 --> 00:20:48.769
of times it's just easier to take a break. I

00:20:48.769 --> 00:20:51.150
grab a huge handful of hay and I tell her her

00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:54.049
all done cue and I just let her relax because

00:20:54.049 --> 00:20:56.589
the biggest frustration is coming from not getting

00:20:56.589 --> 00:20:59.630
the food quickly enough. So I can just grab a

00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:01.950
big handful of hay and just let her take a break

00:21:01.950 --> 00:21:05.329
and eat. There's nothing wrong with just reinforcing

00:21:05.329 --> 00:21:09.369
settling down at that point and take a step back.

00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:12.390
reevaluate what I'm doing. But usually it has

00:21:12.390 --> 00:21:16.890
to come down to the fact that I'm usually progressing

00:21:16.890 --> 00:21:20.369
my criteria in a way that she feels she deserves

00:21:20.369 --> 00:21:22.490
reinforcement faster. The rate of reinforcement

00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:27.230
is too low. So I try to raise my rate of reinforcement

00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:30.910
temporarily and then work on building that frustration

00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:33.730
tolerance and the impulse control to be able

00:21:33.730 --> 00:21:37.000
to handle the lower rate of reinforcement. So

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.460
with the conflict with the high value, is that

00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:42.640
like kind of similar to the horse dog gets over

00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.079
aroused, right? And then a thousand percent.

00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:49.200
Yeah. And so then you're dealing with all the.

00:21:49.789 --> 00:21:53.210
Side effects of the over arousal. And then that's

00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:55.890
interfering with the dog's ability to learn and

00:21:55.890 --> 00:21:58.490
access the reinforcer. Exactly. You're going

00:21:58.490 --> 00:22:00.829
to have fluency problems. You're going to have

00:22:00.829 --> 00:22:04.269
stimulus control issues. And then, you know,

00:22:04.269 --> 00:22:06.650
with a dog, you might get like jumpy, bitey,

00:22:06.650 --> 00:22:09.390
barky stuff with a horse. You're going to get

00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:12.529
they will take the treats rougher, just like

00:22:12.529 --> 00:22:15.289
dogs when they get over aroused. But you might

00:22:15.289 --> 00:22:20.059
also get like head tossing, pinned ears. you

00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:23.720
know, you might get defensive behavior in terms

00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.339
of the food as well. So, you know, being a little

00:22:27.339 --> 00:22:30.880
bit sharky or reaching for the food or just being...

00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.960
Like I've had, I've had Brina get real excited

00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.660
and even just almost like literally turn her

00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:39.359
butt to kick me, not to truly kick me, but she's

00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.279
like, I'm doing a trot and I wanted a click and

00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.099
now I'm frustrated. So I'm going to pin my ears

00:22:44.099 --> 00:22:47.559
and toss my head and maybe, maybe shift my hip

00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:49.339
towards you a little bit. Cause I'm mad, you

00:22:49.339 --> 00:22:51.400
know? And I'm like, I hear you. I see you. That

00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:56.160
was my mistake. Wow. I always say people should,

00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:59.440
I will always say people should have to train

00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.900
Zaina because she will hold you accountable.

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:07.880
She will let you know when you're messing up,

00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.140
like she will no holds barred. She will be like,

00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.299
Hey idiot, what are you doing? So now I think

00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:16.460
everyone, instead of training Zaina, they should

00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:20.380
train a horse because it's going to force you.

00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:23.589
To get your act together or else you're going

00:23:23.589 --> 00:23:27.529
to it ain't going to be pretty. Yeah, it's definitely

00:23:27.529 --> 00:23:29.490
because they don't they don't live in the household

00:23:29.490 --> 00:23:31.589
with us all the time. They're very motivated

00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:33.609
to interact with us when we come out. They're

00:23:33.609 --> 00:23:36.569
very sensitive to our energy and our body postures.

00:23:36.589 --> 00:23:38.289
You definitely wouldn't get away with nearly

00:23:38.289 --> 00:23:41.630
as much with a horse as you do with dogs. Wow,

00:23:41.849 --> 00:23:45.009
that's interesting. Yeah, they're they're very

00:23:45.009 --> 00:23:47.809
fun. And it's very interesting to see how they.

00:23:48.620 --> 00:23:50.839
How quickly they generalize, that's one thing

00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.640
that I really notice a difference. Like you were

00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:54.579
saying, Petra, that I told you, I had taught

00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:56.859
Roger just to offer his head and put his head

00:23:56.859 --> 00:23:59.960
down. walk and at trot while he was on the ground

00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:02.640
on the lunge line. And doing that, we were doing

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.099
that to get him to lift his abdominals and use

00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:09.019
his back properly. And I took him out for a trail

00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:11.039
ride. I don't know, it probably was like weeks

00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.319
later. And I was like, why is he sniffing the

00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:15.480
ground? Like we're going out for a ride and he

00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.900
keeps sniffing the ground. What are you doing?

00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:20.279
And he was like, this is what I've been getting

00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.359
clicks and treats for. Look, I can do it. And

00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:24.819
I was like, I have never once viewed this from

00:24:24.819 --> 00:24:28.160
the saddle. Yeah, it's bizarre. And Brina will

00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:30.579
do the same thing. One of the rehab exercises

00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:34.359
I'm working on is, this might be hard to describe

00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:37.599
on a podcast, but if you can imagine a Cavaletti

00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.779
pole, instead of walking across it perpendicularly,

00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:43.539
she's actually standing with it between her front

00:24:43.539 --> 00:24:45.539
feet and her back feet. Does that make sense?

00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:49.039
Yeah. Okay. And then we're taking side, keeping

00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.559
the front feet stationary. We're taking sidesteps

00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:56.380
left and right with her back feet. When I was

00:24:56.380 --> 00:25:00.160
riding her last month, I kind of was giving her

00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.299
a loose rein and just giving her a chance to

00:25:02.299 --> 00:25:05.019
stretch and relax. And she said, oh, you're not

00:25:05.019 --> 00:25:07.119
giving me any cues. I'm going to mosey to the

00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.579
center of the arena over here. She literally

00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:12.059
straddled the Cavaletti and started stepping

00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:19.589
back and forth with it. wow never cued that from

00:25:19.589 --> 00:25:22.390
the saddle before ever only ever cued it on the

00:25:22.390 --> 00:25:25.150
ground standing in front of her so you think

00:25:25.150 --> 00:25:29.089
that generalization is just motivation or it's

00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:33.569
just they're wired differently maybe as a prey

00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:37.369
animal they're wired differently yeah you know

00:25:37.369 --> 00:25:40.910
um they're you know they're very they're very

00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:46.789
socially um sensitive in terms of if she freezes

00:25:46.789 --> 00:25:48.910
and looks at something in the distance, if I

00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:50.789
try to be like, oh yeah, it's totally fine. She's

00:25:50.789 --> 00:25:52.910
like, you're psycho. It's not fine. You know?

00:25:52.910 --> 00:25:55.569
So I have to stop and acknowledge it too. Oh

00:25:55.569 --> 00:25:57.789
yeah. I see that bicyclist. No big deal. And

00:25:57.789 --> 00:25:59.710
then we can go right back to work. You know,

00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:01.690
sometimes I wonder if it's a difference between

00:26:01.690 --> 00:26:05.710
prey versus predator, but. I've only really just

00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:08.190
experimented and played with my own dogs. I would

00:26:08.190 --> 00:26:10.210
not consider myself a horse clicker training

00:26:10.210 --> 00:26:16.269
expert. We're just talking, right, in theory.

00:26:16.710 --> 00:26:19.670
None of us are experts at anything. Trust me,

00:26:19.710 --> 00:26:23.809
I'm not an expert on anything. No, it's fascinating

00:26:23.809 --> 00:26:26.470
because it always makes me think, right? Because,

00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:31.029
I mean, dogs, I think, are not good generalizers

00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:35.369
at all. No, you have to take so many steps to

00:26:35.369 --> 00:26:39.210
do that. And you got to show them 80 different

00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:44.619
pictures of it, you know? Yeah, I had the same

00:26:44.619 --> 00:26:46.539
thing happen with Roger when I was doing nose

00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:48.740
work with him. I would have a terrible nose work

00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.240
session trying to introduce corners or something

00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.779
like that. And I'd go home and I'd just pick

00:26:53.779 --> 00:26:55.980
it apart in my head and be like, all right, here's

00:26:55.980 --> 00:26:58.400
my plan going forward. Then I'd come back and

00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:00.420
do it again. And he'd be like, yeah, corners.

00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:02.099
Got it, mom. I've been thinking about it. It's

00:27:02.099 --> 00:27:06.259
fine. And I'd be like, what? I didn't do anything.

00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:09.099
How did you generalize this? It's just so fast.

00:27:09.460 --> 00:27:14.279
Wow. that's amazing so interesting i mean i do

00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.660
think there i mean the generalization thing aside

00:27:17.660 --> 00:27:20.519
another point that you just made which i do think

00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.279
is big because i think a lot of times people

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.980
just flood their dogs with too much information

00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:30.720
and that whole like just let it sit like i've

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.440
had sessions where my dog's not getting it or

00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:35.559
did it wrong and i don't i was like i don't even

00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:37.180
know how to fix this i'm like you know what just

00:27:37.180 --> 00:27:40.789
forget it Come back the next day. And he's like,

00:27:40.809 --> 00:27:44.210
like Zesty's really like good at that, you know?

00:27:44.210 --> 00:27:46.970
And then he's like, oh yeah, I got it. I'm like,

00:27:46.990 --> 00:27:50.910
oh, all right. You know, and people, I feel like

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.970
they're so controlling. Like their dog makes

00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:57.549
a mistake. They freak out or the dog doesn't

00:27:57.549 --> 00:27:59.750
get it. They're trying so hard. They're doing

00:27:59.750 --> 00:28:02.490
8 ,000 reps and they get up the next day. They

00:28:02.490 --> 00:28:06.750
do it again. And I'm like, holy cow. Like just.

00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:10.640
you know, um, I like, I have a rule of threes.

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.700
They're not allowed to do more than three correct

00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:14.519
reps in a row. At that point, you need to either

00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.160
raise criteria or go do something else. Cause

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.940
I had to do something that I had to draw the

00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:23.079
line. Right. And I'm like, and I'm also like

00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.740
one and done. Like when, if Zaina does something

00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:32.140
perfectly, I will never do it again ever like

00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:35.900
that day, that session, because I will guarantee

00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:39.230
you. the odds are very high if i do it again

00:28:39.230 --> 00:28:43.950
it won't be perfect so like i do she does it

00:28:43.950 --> 00:28:48.369
perfectly you know she'll and then i move on

00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:49.930
to the next thing the next thing and next thing

00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:52.190
and sometimes she does like four or five things

00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:55.069
once we're done she's done we're done goodbye

00:28:55.069 --> 00:28:59.029
off of you you're done yep ringo was exactly

00:28:59.029 --> 00:29:02.190
the same way you got to do it do it right and

00:29:02.190 --> 00:29:05.200
then quit. Tara was the exact opposite. That

00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.359
was a really interesting thing working with her

00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.279
is if I quit, it actually was really punishing

00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.460
for her. She did not want to quit. So she really

00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:18.240
taught me how to keep raising my criteria. And

00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.359
I honestly think that that's what made it so

00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:23.880
easy for me to teach her to do so much duration

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:28.220
and such long behavior chains with her. But that's

00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:31.460
so interesting because she's not a breed that

00:29:31.460 --> 00:29:36.410
you would ever imagine. I think a lot that it

00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:39.190
would have had to have your training had to have

00:29:39.190 --> 00:29:41.390
a huge impact because I'm sorry, that is not

00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:45.769
a breed that like is super social. Like, let's

00:29:45.769 --> 00:29:47.990
just be real people. I mean, come on. Like it

00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:51.069
is what it is. Right. It's not a breed that's

00:29:51.069 --> 00:29:54.250
typically motivated to do anything other than

00:29:54.250 --> 00:29:57.150
guard because that's what it was bred for. Yeah.

00:29:57.170 --> 00:29:59.650
Right. Maybe bite. That would be reinforcing.

00:30:01.809 --> 00:30:06.680
And. So when you have, this is what I found so

00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:08.900
fascinating, especially when I watched that video

00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:13.680
is that like, it is what it is. And I'm like,

00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:19.359
how did you get this dog to do that? You know,

00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:25.819
so it, no, but it, it has to do with how you

00:30:25.819 --> 00:30:30.779
trained her. Oh, I lost her. So, so we were talking

00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:35.900
about Tara. Like, what did you do to you? Obviously,

00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:39.779
your training had to have a big impact on her,

00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:44.119
like just wanting to work, wanting to do reps,

00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.599
wanting to keep, you know. Yeah, she definitely

00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.279
had so much motivation, internal motivation.

00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:53.440
Yeah, I was trying to think about that. You know,

00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.579
sometimes when you when you're such in the thick

00:30:55.579 --> 00:30:57.799
of it, you don't realize exactly how you're doing

00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:02.319
it. But, you know, I think. I didn't intend for

00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:03.980
her to be a performance dog, honestly. I just

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:08.279
got her as a pet. But when I was raising her,

00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:10.420
I mean, I did clicker training since day one.

00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:12.700
I got her very young. She was like seven weeks

00:31:12.700 --> 00:31:15.960
old when she came home. So she definitely learned

00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:19.000
from early on how to do everything in terms of

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.119
just easy clicker training and that sort of stuff.

00:31:23.529 --> 00:31:26.150
Really, I think what it came down to was building

00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:29.529
a lot of impulse control, a lot of frustration

00:31:29.529 --> 00:31:33.630
tolerance that really allowed me to add duration

00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:35.950
and create those really long behavior chains

00:31:35.950 --> 00:31:38.869
without getting all the other side effects and

00:31:38.869 --> 00:31:43.500
the fallout that usually comes with that. I really

00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:46.839
wanted to build a lot of trust and a lot of confidence

00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.740
in her that no matter what, she was going to

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:51.759
get reinforced and it was going to be worth it.

00:31:51.779 --> 00:31:53.380
You know, I think that's the big thing is that

00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:57.440
our dogs start to lose confidence in us that

00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.680
it's going to be worth it. It's a huge amount

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.839
of work. I mean, they're not done. They know

00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.559
when we walk into a ring and it's an actual show,

00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:08.660
like they know there's not going to be. actual

00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:11.079
tangible reinforcement, right? Like the food,

00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:15.279
the play. And very oftentimes that's when we

00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.319
see like, you know, that lackluster performance

00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:23.160
or we see latency problems where they just don't

00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:26.759
respond as quickly. And I really wanted to build

00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.599
trust and confidence in her that it's always

00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.440
going to be worth it. And really what that comes

00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.079
down to is your classical conditioning, right?

00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:39.000
That it's not about the operant conditioning

00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:42.420
of each individual behavior. I think it's about

00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:45.000
the classical conditioning of the whole entire

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:48.220
picture to them of doing a chain of behaviors,

00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:52.859
right? That they know that picture means they're

00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:58.220
going to get reinforcement. I always. Tell my

00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:00.960
students to make sure that you don't just think

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:03.039
about giving them a reward. If you're asking

00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.339
for a big chain of behaviors, think about making

00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:10.539
a reward event. That the quality and the quantity

00:33:10.539 --> 00:33:18.319
of the reinforcer is the quality and the quantity

00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:21.920
of your reinforcer has to be greater than the

00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:25.750
quality and the quantity. of whatever you just

00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:28.529
asked them to do. Otherwise, they're going to

00:33:28.529 --> 00:33:30.329
do a cost -benefit analysis and they're going

00:33:30.329 --> 00:33:35.109
to realize it's not worth it. Right. Yeah, that's

00:33:35.109 --> 00:33:38.250
so true. Being really, really specific in that

00:33:38.250 --> 00:33:42.509
regard in terms of how long was that? Was it

00:33:42.509 --> 00:33:44.670
a minute's worth of work? You better play tug

00:33:44.670 --> 00:33:48.630
for at least a minute. Plus treats. Just being

00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:51.740
really, really clear. for the handlers so that

00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:54.240
they've got something concrete to actually do.

00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.759
That's, I think that's really important. How

00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:03.480
did you build frustration tolerance? Um, I think

00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:05.779
I was so worried in terms of having a pet. I

00:34:05.779 --> 00:34:07.700
was so worried about a dog that was going to,

00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:11.019
you know, whine in her crate or some bark out

00:34:11.019 --> 00:34:13.539
of excitement in the car because Corsos are well

00:34:13.539 --> 00:34:16.880
known for their high arousal issues. Um, so I

00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:20.880
really worked a lot in terms of her, um, Working

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:25.019
on things like just basic stuff like stays and

00:34:25.019 --> 00:34:28.000
waits, but adding insane levels of distractions,

00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.659
you know, remote control toys, throwing her toys

00:34:32.659 --> 00:34:37.170
and calling leave it or wait. To build the impulse

00:34:37.170 --> 00:34:39.750
control, the frustration tolerance, I really

00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:42.809
did a lot with food puzzle toys. I don't know

00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:44.730
if you use a lot of food puzzle toys with your

00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:47.070
dogs in terms of that. I don't because my dogs

00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:50.309
literally destroy them. Like their way to solve

00:34:50.309 --> 00:34:54.909
the puzzle is destroy the toy. Like to get at

00:34:54.909 --> 00:34:58.130
the food like that. They're so unsophisticated.

00:34:58.949 --> 00:35:03.769
They're just. And then. Yeah. Very much in that

00:35:03.769 --> 00:35:08.610
way as well. Yeah. There was one, it was like

00:35:08.610 --> 00:35:12.369
a bubble gum machine and it's like. Cookie cookie.

00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:14.469
It's like hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it. Like

00:35:14.469 --> 00:35:16.690
till the machine practically explodes. Right.

00:35:16.730 --> 00:35:22.050
Like. There are. There are field labs. Like.

00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:27.880
Yeah. They just don't do. They have simpler ways

00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:33.780
of getting to it. Puzzles. So you said you used

00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:37.260
puzzles a lot. Ask me if I use puzzles. I told

00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:40.199
you that using a puzzle with a lab field lab

00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:43.139
is absolutely disastrous. And it does. Yeah.

00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.900
Yeah. So the puzzle, I see what you're saying,

00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:50.800
because like she has to work through finding

00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.940
it. She has to work through solving the puzzle

00:35:54.940 --> 00:35:59.159
to get the reinforcer. Yeah. And if she gets

00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:01.880
frustrated, though, do you help her solve the

00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:04.179
puzzle? Or are you just like, it's okay, honey,

00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:09.000
keep working? I give her an easier puzzle. So

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.400
I think starting with an easier puzzle, like

00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:15.059
once you notice like, oh, we're going to vocalizing

00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:18.920
or destruction as our strategy, right? It means

00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:20.679
you've just picked a too challenging puzzle.

00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:26.019
Or you can choose to reinforce for effort that

00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:28.500
isn't actually getting the food out right away,

00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.780
like so that they don't switch strategies, right?

00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.159
Because switching strategies to destruction or

00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.599
just like vocalizing is like Freddie would work

00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:42.059
on a Kong while also whining because she's frustrated,

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:44.380
right? So getting reinforcement more frequently

00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:47.679
teaches them that they can work through it and

00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:51.380
eventually get it. I've done that with a lot

00:36:51.380 --> 00:36:53.500
of clients' dogs where they're playing with a

00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:55.880
toy and right as we kind of see that frustration

00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:58.139
starting to bubble up, you just kind of sneakily

00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:00.179
drop a little piece of food down there so they

00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:02.440
think it came out of the toy, right? So you're

00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:04.960
actually reinforcing the persistence and the

00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.039
resilience without going to that next level of

00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.780
frustration. Yeah, because I was just saying

00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:13.630
the lorry when we got disconnected, like... It's

00:37:13.630 --> 00:37:16.090
such a conundrum because there's such a fine

00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:19.309
line, right? Because what people tend to do is

00:37:19.309 --> 00:37:23.670
the second their dog gets frustrated, they throw

00:37:23.670 --> 00:37:27.030
a cookie at it. So that decreases their frustration

00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:29.150
tolerance, right? Because as soon as the dog

00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:30.750
gets frustrated, they're like, here's a cookie,

00:37:30.849 --> 00:37:33.469
here's another cookie. So it's like where, you

00:37:33.469 --> 00:37:37.610
know, I think I find I tend, people tend to do

00:37:37.610 --> 00:37:41.349
that way more than push the dog. past the point,

00:37:41.369 --> 00:37:44.210
you know, where they're so frustrated that you

00:37:44.210 --> 00:37:48.789
went too far, but there's that fine line where

00:37:48.789 --> 00:37:52.849
they need to push and you can't just run and

00:37:52.849 --> 00:37:57.869
grab, you know, Oh God here. So far to where

00:37:57.869 --> 00:38:00.730
they're the dogs, like I give up or I'm out and

00:38:00.730 --> 00:38:04.309
different dogs have different tolerances for

00:38:04.309 --> 00:38:08.139
frustration naturally. Yeah, I think you can

00:38:08.139 --> 00:38:10.280
shape the frustration in the same way that you

00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.039
shape an actual action, though. Right. So knowing

00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:17.059
that sometimes it is a good idea to just give

00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:19.079
that treat at that moment when the dog is frustrated.

00:38:19.340 --> 00:38:21.699
But you can't that can't always be the answer

00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:23.840
because then you're stuck at that level of criteria

00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.340
in terms of frustration. Right. So knowing where

00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:29.719
you made the mistake, making a slight adjustment

00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.860
to your criteria so the dog can accomplish maybe

00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:36.099
an approximation of your goal, but with less

00:38:36.099 --> 00:38:38.150
frustration. frustration that would be reinforceable

00:38:38.150 --> 00:38:40.570
right and so you're what you're really working

00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:42.969
on is two different criteria you're working on

00:38:42.969 --> 00:38:46.789
the goal behavior but also imagining that the

00:38:46.789 --> 00:38:49.550
the emotion that comes a lot along with it is

00:38:49.550 --> 00:38:52.610
part of your criteria so we always have to reduce

00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:55.250
your criteria anytime you're adding a layer to

00:38:55.250 --> 00:38:59.789
something and frustration is a layer yeah that's

00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:03.880
so Yeah. I always try, like, I'm always thinking

00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:07.280
like, even when I have a puppy, um, right. Like,

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:11.320
so I'm training a puppy and I can see it's starting

00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:13.960
to get either a little glazed or it's starting

00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.019
to get a little, and I'm like, all right, just

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:19.099
then my tendency is I'm like, give me just a

00:39:19.099 --> 00:39:22.599
little bit more. And then I'm like, yes. And

00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:26.460
then we're done. Right. So that I'm always trying

00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:29.940
to push like a little bit. and a little more,

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.940
and a little more, and a little more into that,

00:39:33.980 --> 00:39:38.900
right? So that over time, it gets bigger and

00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:42.400
bigger so that they can do more work and they

00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:45.920
can tolerate more frustration. Yeah, they're

00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.679
able to think through that level of adrenaline,

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.500
right? And that's, I mean, that's exactly essentially

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:58.079
what I'm also saying. I think that with... And

00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.019
less experienced handlers, knowing where that

00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:03.300
line is and knowing when to push and knowing

00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:05.980
when to drop, I mean, those are the chops, right?

00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:08.599
That's the mechanics and the training judgment

00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:11.880
calls that we all have to make all the time with

00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.440
different learners, same learner on different

00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:17.559
days. I mean, those are the tough calls that

00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:19.340
we have to make all the time, knowing when to

00:40:19.340 --> 00:40:23.269
push and when not to. Yeah. Going back to when

00:40:23.269 --> 00:40:26.989
you were just talking about when, like, so the

00:40:26.989 --> 00:40:31.489
dog's trying to solve the puzzle and you can

00:40:31.489 --> 00:40:35.949
start to see some frustration bubbling up. So

00:40:35.949 --> 00:40:40.510
you sort of just, you know, secretly sneak a

00:40:40.510 --> 00:40:42.789
cookie in to make the dog think that they've

00:40:42.789 --> 00:40:45.829
got some success. I like that. I'm just sitting

00:40:45.829 --> 00:40:49.050
here thinking about that. Like you're almost.

00:40:50.740 --> 00:40:55.739
um, when it gets hard and we want you to keep

00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:59.579
pushing, but we're also wanting to pair it with

00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:04.760
the right emotional state. So that's right. I'm

00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.519
thinking about that. Like, I like that. I like

00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.179
that. Yeah. So that's a moment where kind of

00:41:10.179 --> 00:41:12.840
like we would with a dog who is fearful. We are

00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.260
willing to give you a treat while you're fearful.

00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:17.539
Right. And people used to be worried. Oh, that

00:41:17.539 --> 00:41:20.300
reinforces the fear. It's the same thing with

00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:22.159
frustration. I'm willing to give you a treat

00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:24.179
to help you work through this emotional thing.

00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.739
And it's not reinforcing the frustration, even

00:41:26.739 --> 00:41:28.599
though it kind of feels like it is. Does that

00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:31.059
make sense? It does make sense because I'm like.

00:41:31.670 --> 00:41:35.389
I'm like envisioning this and I'm like, if I

00:41:35.389 --> 00:41:39.309
see frustration bubbling, is my first instinct

00:41:39.309 --> 00:41:42.230
to go put a cookie in it, like put a cookie on

00:41:42.230 --> 00:41:45.730
it? Right. It's not. But now that I'm thinking

00:41:45.730 --> 00:41:50.170
about it, I'm like, huh, I kind of like it. I'm

00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:52.329
looking at this differently. That's interesting.

00:41:52.489 --> 00:41:55.789
You can always go back and shape the actual action,

00:41:55.889 --> 00:41:57.510
right? Like you're like, oh, well, if I give

00:41:57.510 --> 00:41:59.949
him a treat, then he's going to think I want

00:41:59.949 --> 00:42:02.929
him to do A instead of B. But really, you can

00:42:02.929 --> 00:42:05.690
always go back and shape the actual action the

00:42:05.690 --> 00:42:08.349
way that you want it to be once you've dealt

00:42:08.349 --> 00:42:10.590
with the frustration. And it's going to look

00:42:10.590 --> 00:42:14.869
even better by that point. The other strategy

00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:17.449
that I use a lot is kind of using like a high

00:42:17.449 --> 00:42:19.769
-low reinforcer in that moment. I'll give the

00:42:19.769 --> 00:42:22.389
dog a treat when they get frustrated, but maybe

00:42:22.389 --> 00:42:24.469
it's just a lower value treat. And it's, again,

00:42:24.630 --> 00:42:29.329
just addressing the frustration. So maybe I'm

00:42:29.329 --> 00:42:32.559
over here. And you're not like marking, right?

00:42:32.659 --> 00:42:35.360
Like you're not really marking. So it's not like

00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:38.719
you're isolating like a moment in time or you

00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:41.800
know what I mean? Exactly, right? So I would

00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:45.619
click and give high value or maybe just give

00:42:45.619 --> 00:42:47.880
him, just literally throw him a bone, right?

00:42:47.980 --> 00:42:50.039
Like just give him a low value thing to help

00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.940
deal with the frustration. Give him a couple

00:42:51.940 --> 00:42:53.780
low value things to deal with the frustration.

00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:57.019
It's fine because the frustration is what's clouding

00:42:57.019 --> 00:42:58.960
the ability to think clearly. And when we address

00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.440
that, you can. come back and shape the behavior

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.539
that you wanted much much easier I think it's

00:43:05.539 --> 00:43:07.880
kind of like the concept of what we do so for

00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:13.119
example like if I'm adding um challenges right

00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:15.739
like proofing is the way we say to something

00:43:15.739 --> 00:43:19.619
and my dog maybe does not the perfect behavior

00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:21.900
but he's trying and he's trying to push through

00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:26.099
the challenge I will a lot of times say yes exactly

00:43:26.099 --> 00:43:29.670
even though Let's say he fumbled the dumbbell,

00:43:29.889 --> 00:43:32.230
but I'm like, I don't care that he fumbled it

00:43:32.230 --> 00:43:36.010
because he made the choice to pick through and

00:43:36.010 --> 00:43:39.389
push through and get it in spite of the crazy

00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:42.809
toy spinning around the dumbbell, right? And

00:43:42.809 --> 00:43:45.090
then people freak out and they're like, but you

00:43:45.090 --> 00:43:48.570
marked a bad pickup. I'm like, no, I marked the

00:43:48.570 --> 00:43:55.019
effort to push through. and do the task. And

00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:59.039
then not a 100 % of the time I repeat the task.

00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.440
The dog does not fumble the dumbbell, right?

00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:06.900
Because the fumble was a function of hit something

00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:09.699
else, which is the dog going, Oh God. Oh God.

00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.739
All right. What do I do? Oh, okay. Yeah. I pick

00:44:12.739 --> 00:44:15.079
up the toy. I pick up the dumbbell in spite of

00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:19.139
the toy. Right? Right, buddy. And the actual

00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:22.820
behavior of picking up the dumbbell is like secondary

00:44:22.820 --> 00:44:25.960
and it gets resolved once you resolve the other

00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.349
piece. 1 ,000%. When we think about generalizing

00:44:29.349 --> 00:44:32.530
or proofing, we tend to think of the three Ds

00:44:32.530 --> 00:44:35.130
only, right? Like duration, distance, and distractions.

00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:38.730
But that is completely ignoring all the other

00:44:38.730 --> 00:44:40.889
emotional states that your dog could be experiencing

00:44:40.889 --> 00:44:44.090
in that moment, right? Is it frustration? Is

00:44:44.090 --> 00:44:47.130
it a fear? Is it pressure from the handler? They're

00:44:47.130 --> 00:44:49.170
feeling a little bit stressed about that. You

00:44:49.170 --> 00:44:50.969
know, stress of travel when you're competing.

00:44:51.150 --> 00:44:54.429
You know, you have to build the resiliency to

00:44:54.429 --> 00:44:56.619
all of those things and their emotions. health

00:44:56.619 --> 00:44:59.900
into all of that. I think that that is a big

00:44:59.900 --> 00:45:02.380
piece of being able to get really long chains

00:45:02.380 --> 00:45:05.260
is that you're also addressing the emotional

00:45:05.260 --> 00:45:07.460
health of your dog, that they're feeling really

00:45:07.460 --> 00:45:10.599
confident and trusting in you, and that they

00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.820
can do all of these additional behaviors because

00:45:12.820 --> 00:45:15.539
you've trained the distance, duration, and distractions,

00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:20.300
but you also worked through the adrenaline. the

00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:22.480
arousal, the frustration tolerance, the impulse

00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:25.340
control, that stuff is more like the classical

00:45:25.340 --> 00:45:27.280
conditioning that comes along when we're teaching

00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.780
all these specific skills through operant conditioning.

00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:34.019
I think that's what's so hard for people. Like

00:45:34.019 --> 00:45:36.519
I did a seminar this weekend. Well, I talk about

00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:40.980
it all the time anyway. It's like there's so

00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.780
many things happening simultaneously, right?

00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:49.800
People get and people tend to be very focused

00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:55.260
on teaching the teaching the behavior. Yep. Yep.

00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:02.039
Yeah. And then it's really hard for them to see,

00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:08.480
literally see anything else. Right. Yep. Yeah.

00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:10.679
Yeah. I mean, we're not really taught to pay

00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:12.500
attention to that. You know, the body language

00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:15.260
and the emotions for so long, the culture of

00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:17.800
dogs was that they don't have emotions, right?

00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:19.800
And now we're realizing like, oh, they're actually

00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.980
extremely emotionally complex. And that stuff

00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:25.239
matters. It's coming along for the ride, whether

00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:29.420
you want it to or not. True. Facts. You know,

00:46:29.420 --> 00:46:33.420
I always tell my freestyle students, like, we

00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:35.900
don't make the rules of learning. Like, we have

00:46:35.900 --> 00:46:38.099
to live by them. We don't get to make the rules.

00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:42.460
Like, your dog is going to tell you what they

00:46:42.460 --> 00:46:44.460
need in that moment, and you don't get to change

00:46:44.460 --> 00:46:47.480
the rules, but you can use them to make your

00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:52.300
training choices. I know, but it's such a challenge

00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:57.570
to get people, like, sometimes, like, You know,

00:46:57.590 --> 00:47:02.230
I've seen people where they miss something so

00:47:02.230 --> 00:47:05.489
obvious. Right. And it's happening literally.

00:47:05.730 --> 00:47:08.190
I'm not even talking at a distance, like right

00:47:08.190 --> 00:47:10.130
there in front of their face. And I'll go right

00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:14.449
now. Did you just see that? See what? And I'm

00:47:14.449 --> 00:47:18.449
like, oh, my God. Yeah. We are certainly not,

00:47:18.469 --> 00:47:20.590
like, as humans, like, we are not aware of our

00:47:20.590 --> 00:47:23.610
bodies nearly as much as dogs are. We don't know

00:47:23.610 --> 00:47:28.210
what we're doing. We just do it. But we're also

00:47:28.210 --> 00:47:31.550
not good listeners, right? Like, we're not good

00:47:31.550 --> 00:47:35.250
listeners to other humans, right? Like, case

00:47:35.250 --> 00:47:38.550
in point, go out to dinner. Is anyone listening

00:47:38.550 --> 00:47:40.309
to anyone? No, they're all sitting there on their

00:47:40.309 --> 00:47:43.369
phones, right? Like, you're not learning. to

00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:48.130
actually listen. And then sometimes you're talking

00:47:48.130 --> 00:47:51.630
and then the person like talks over you or something.

00:47:51.690 --> 00:47:54.550
Right. So all those things are like, you need

00:47:54.550 --> 00:48:01.130
to hone your skill of actually listening, like

00:48:01.130 --> 00:48:06.449
listening and taking in objectively what's in

00:48:06.449 --> 00:48:10.659
front of you. And I think that is what makes

00:48:10.659 --> 00:48:13.760
a really, really good trainers is being really

00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:17.159
open to the. honest feedback your dog gives you,

00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:20.619
right? And being able to understand that. I will

00:48:20.619 --> 00:48:23.380
throw myself under the bus. Like, you know, when

00:48:23.380 --> 00:48:26.219
Tara passed away and Ringo passed away, like,

00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:30.340
I went down this real deep grief rabbit hole.

00:48:30.420 --> 00:48:34.019
It was really hard. And I'm still kind of finding

00:48:34.019 --> 00:48:37.579
myself in that terms. And losing Roger was really

00:48:37.579 --> 00:48:42.000
hard. I find myself doing bad training with Freddie

00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.030
or with Brina because I can't get up. of my head.

00:48:45.130 --> 00:48:50.389
I have a level of busyness or anxiety in my head

00:48:50.389 --> 00:48:53.550
that I didn't have before. And I can feel it

00:48:53.550 --> 00:48:56.190
when I get in the zone and I'm like, oh, oh,

00:48:56.210 --> 00:48:59.170
there's my old self. I can feel it when you can

00:48:59.170 --> 00:49:03.190
really truly like see those things and feel it

00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:05.869
and be open to the feedback and make those judgment

00:49:05.869 --> 00:49:08.369
and training calls in the moment and on the fly.

00:49:08.489 --> 00:49:13.250
But it takes a level of presence that Our life

00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.150
and culture just doesn't encourage us to be in

00:49:16.150 --> 00:49:18.710
anymore. Well, that, that we talk about that

00:49:18.710 --> 00:49:20.929
all the time. Like that's like the hardest piece

00:49:20.929 --> 00:49:24.909
is actually being so in the moment and focused

00:49:24.909 --> 00:49:28.289
and like completely dialed in. So not you, you're

00:49:28.289 --> 00:49:31.750
not hearing, seeing, feeling anything else. Yeah.

00:49:31.869 --> 00:49:34.730
Yeah. It's way harder for me to get into that

00:49:34.730 --> 00:49:37.989
headspace than it, than it used to be. And I

00:49:37.989 --> 00:49:40.480
think that that's. Especially when you're being

00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:42.199
when you're a student, you know, like when you're

00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:43.940
a student, somebody else is talking to you while

00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:45.940
you're working your dog. That's really hard.

00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:48.739
I find the best thing for me when I'm working

00:49:48.739 --> 00:49:51.960
with Brina or with Freddie is I always film myself

00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:53.900
when I'm training because then I can look back

00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:56.840
and keep myself on. That's how I get the most

00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:01.849
benefit from it is. filming myself and seeing

00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:05.650
how the animal is reacting to me and then realizing,

00:50:05.769 --> 00:50:08.090
oh, there was that moment. I missed that right

00:50:08.090 --> 00:50:11.510
there. Cause even if I'm not in my best head

00:50:11.510 --> 00:50:14.349
space during that training station session, when

00:50:14.349 --> 00:50:16.469
I look back at it and I can see it visually,

00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:20.090
it, it kind of burns itself a little bit more

00:50:20.090 --> 00:50:22.269
into my muscle memory and I won't make that mistake

00:50:22.269 --> 00:50:27.849
again. Right. Yeah, we talk about video all the

00:50:27.849 --> 00:50:32.510
time. I also think like on some level, like our

00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:38.769
first few dogs were kind of naive. Like it's

00:50:38.769 --> 00:50:41.690
a conundrum because on the one hand, we don't

00:50:41.690 --> 00:50:45.610
know anything. So we make those mistakes. But

00:50:45.610 --> 00:50:48.670
on the other hand, we don't know anything. So

00:50:48.670 --> 00:50:52.989
like. where everything is magical, right? Like

00:50:52.989 --> 00:50:57.190
my dog picked up the dumbbell. Like I literally

00:50:57.190 --> 00:51:02.710
to this day can remember how excited I was when

00:51:02.710 --> 00:51:05.670
I got my first set of articles. Like I was like,

00:51:05.750 --> 00:51:08.929
I am entering the world of utility. Like I am

00:51:08.929 --> 00:51:14.369
a big shot. It was so exciting. And then you

00:51:14.369 --> 00:51:17.409
have a few dogs, you know, you get to a certain

00:51:17.409 --> 00:51:21.929
level with them. And it is incredibly challenging

00:51:21.929 --> 00:51:26.829
to be so aware that you must now not place any

00:51:26.829 --> 00:51:31.110
of those judgment, any of that onto your next

00:51:31.110 --> 00:51:34.050
animals. Like I think in an odd way, I was very

00:51:34.050 --> 00:51:38.480
lucky because I had Tyler early. But I knew,

00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:43.260
I just knew he was special. I also was aware

00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:47.440
enough that I knew that the next dog after him,

00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:51.139
that if I did not get my act together, it was

00:51:51.139 --> 00:51:55.139
going to be a disaster because no dog was ever

00:51:55.139 --> 00:51:58.900
possibly going to live up to that animal. Like

00:51:58.900 --> 00:52:04.699
it was impossible. So I did a lot of like mental

00:52:04.699 --> 00:52:11.590
prep work. Before and while I had the next more

00:52:11.590 --> 00:52:16.510
than one dog, because I was like, because I could

00:52:16.510 --> 00:52:20.289
feel it like I could feel how that could potentially

00:52:20.289 --> 00:52:24.869
be a really big problem. And I see that with

00:52:24.869 --> 00:52:28.630
a lot of students who have had a dog that they've

00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:31.949
reached a certain level with. And now they have

00:52:31.949 --> 00:52:38.949
expectations and. It can get really messy. Yeah.

00:52:39.050 --> 00:52:42.190
You're overthinking everything. You're, you're,

00:52:42.190 --> 00:52:44.670
you know, you're really thinking, you're realizing

00:52:44.670 --> 00:52:48.130
how much work it was the first time around, you

00:52:48.130 --> 00:52:50.349
know, and every dog is so different. You can't

00:52:50.349 --> 00:52:53.329
do it exactly the same. Like I, you know, even

00:52:53.329 --> 00:52:55.630
when I did it with Ringo, he was so different

00:52:55.630 --> 00:53:00.090
than Tara that I had to completely rethink everything

00:53:00.090 --> 00:53:05.579
again. And. Working with Freddie is also very,

00:53:05.679 --> 00:53:08.099
very different. You know, they're all so different.

00:53:08.179 --> 00:53:11.619
And so you really have to be present and not

00:53:11.619 --> 00:53:13.760
overthink things, but also be thinking them enough,

00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:16.119
right? That you're shaping your criteria and

00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.260
keeping all of those emotions in check. It's

00:53:18.260 --> 00:53:23.139
a lot. It's not easy. Well, we always say, right,

00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:27.380
Lori? We always say it's so hard. God training

00:53:27.380 --> 00:53:33.079
is so hard. What is that? That Bob Bailey quote,

00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:35.780
right? Like dog, like training is simple, but

00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:40.820
never easy. It's never easy. It's so hard. Yeah.

00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:44.480
But like, see for me, and this is what I tell

00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:48.329
people, like, well. I do a couple things that

00:53:48.329 --> 00:53:50.570
help me. I don't know if they would help anyone

00:53:50.570 --> 00:53:54.210
else, right? Like one thing I do is, because

00:53:54.210 --> 00:53:56.409
I've done this with things in my life where I

00:53:56.409 --> 00:53:59.409
like, because emotions never serve us, right?

00:53:59.590 --> 00:54:03.469
They always get in the way. So like I separate

00:54:03.469 --> 00:54:06.329
myself. So like if a friend calls me up and she's

00:54:06.329 --> 00:54:08.969
like, drama, drama, drama, what do I do? And

00:54:08.969 --> 00:54:12.010
I go, well, if it happened, if this was happening

00:54:12.010 --> 00:54:15.530
to me, what would you say? And they know the

00:54:15.530 --> 00:54:18.289
answer immediately because they have now separated

00:54:18.289 --> 00:54:22.710
themselves from the emotion. Right. So I'll do

00:54:22.710 --> 00:54:25.650
that with training. I'll be like, OK, I'm frustrated.

00:54:25.809 --> 00:54:28.889
OK, wait a minute. If this was my student's dog

00:54:28.889 --> 00:54:32.329
and this was happening, what would I tell them?

00:54:32.429 --> 00:54:34.889
And I'm like, oh, duh. Like, I know the answer.

00:54:35.010 --> 00:54:37.769
Like, what am I doing? Like, you know, you know

00:54:37.769 --> 00:54:41.530
that. So I'll tell people do that. I also like

00:54:41.530 --> 00:54:45.219
I have my students like. what would Patriot say?

00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:48.880
So I'm like, I don't care if what you guess is

00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:51.400
completely wrong. It doesn't matter. I'm not

00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:55.460
going to judge you, but sent type up your problem,

00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:58.360
right? Cause I do online teaching. So type up

00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.000
your problem, give me your video submission and

00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:03.559
give me a solution. Doesn't matter. It could

00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:05.400
be a shot in the dark. Does not matter. Just

00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:09.079
something. So they start thinking about what

00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:11.900
would not, what would they say? What would I

00:55:11.900 --> 00:55:16.119
say? And that like gives them that degree, weird

00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:21.539
separation thing. And they're able to do it.

00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:23.960
And literally in a few weeks, they're starting

00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:28.119
to get it right. Yeah. That's a great way of

00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.099
thinking about it. And then the other thing I

00:55:31.099 --> 00:55:33.219
do is I'm like, just pretend you're a detective,

00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:38.860
right? Gather data. Like they're just. data points

00:55:38.860 --> 00:55:43.260
it's just information right so here's the data

00:55:43.260 --> 00:55:47.820
the data is in these circumstances this happened

00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:50.679
in this circumstance that happened what is the

00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:53.739
data what are the possibilities of what's different

00:55:53.739 --> 00:55:59.619
or whatever like look at it just as raw data

00:55:59.619 --> 00:56:03.000
and that's it nothing else right like stop with

00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:10.000
the emotional stuff because it never helps They

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.679
can only really dogs can only really, you know,

00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:14.880
any learner, right? They, all they can do is,

00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.679
is try with the information that they have. Right.

00:56:17.780 --> 00:56:23.940
So yeah, the, the, just going with what the behavior

00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:27.539
that you see, right. Is, is the best way to troubleshoot

00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:31.559
things sometimes. Yeah. So this is like, I just,

00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:34.119
my brain just went like completely shooting off

00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:38.880
and a completely. off on a tangent. Like, I wonder

00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:42.679
why, do you think people that do like, like high

00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:45.820
end competitive dressage do any form of like

00:56:45.820 --> 00:56:49.519
clicker training? Cause I almost feel like if

00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:54.280
like the dog, the horse is so highly, highly

00:56:54.280 --> 00:56:58.340
motivated for food and it generalizes so well,

00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:01.599
like you could teach it things like lunging.

00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:06.949
Right. And then like, That's what I do with Roger.

00:57:08.449 --> 00:57:12.590
I know. Yeah, I mean, but 99%. You need to start

00:57:12.590 --> 00:57:16.150
like some, like an online, you need to start

00:57:16.150 --> 00:57:19.670
something. You do. I told you that all the way

00:57:19.670 --> 00:57:22.349
back then. I know. And I'm still going to say

00:57:22.349 --> 00:57:29.630
it because. You're right. It's amazing. I mean,

00:57:29.670 --> 00:57:32.980
it's, yeah. And, you know, so. 99 % of the horses

00:57:32.980 --> 00:57:35.800
out there are still very much traditionally trained.

00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:41.000
Positive reinforcement is progressing for horses,

00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:44.119
even a lot more so than 10 years ago when you

00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:48.659
and I were hanging out. But it's still very much

00:57:48.659 --> 00:57:51.980
fringe, still very, very much where dogs were

00:57:51.980 --> 00:57:57.139
like 75 years ago. But I do think it's very,

00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:00.159
very possible. I mean, I... The staff that I

00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:02.659
worked with with Roger, he was traditionally

00:58:02.659 --> 00:58:04.940
trained, so I would call him like a crossover

00:58:04.940 --> 00:58:07.139
horse crossing over into positive reinforcement.

00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:13.320
But it's so amazing to see how much work he was

00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:15.980
willing to do when he was internally motivated

00:58:15.980 --> 00:58:20.920
to earn food rewards versus running away from

00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:24.639
force or fear. Right. Like because when we do

00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:27.659
lunging with a horse, you are essentially holding

00:58:27.659 --> 00:58:30.559
their head with a line and then you use a whip

00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:33.300
behind them and they run forward. They end up

00:58:33.300 --> 00:58:34.840
running in a circle because you're holding on

00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:37.800
to their head. Right. And so. reason they're

00:58:37.800 --> 00:58:40.019
moving forward is to get away from something

00:58:40.019 --> 00:58:44.039
icky. And that's very, very different than choosing

00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:48.019
to move forward because you want to. Even if

00:58:48.019 --> 00:58:51.440
the motivator is food or praise or scratches,

00:58:51.699 --> 00:58:55.559
the expression of behavior that I got from him

00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:59.739
was so different. He used his body joyfully.

00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:04.480
He was lofty. He would even Even out in the field,

00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:07.340
you know, it was almost like he would offer behaviors

00:59:07.340 --> 00:59:09.619
in the same way that a joyful dog is like, look,

00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:12.000
I'm happy I'm spinning for you, right? It's kind

00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.559
of the same thing for him out there in the field.

00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:17.440
He'd be like, look at me with my big lofty canter

00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:20.179
and now I'm lifting my head and arching my neck.

00:59:20.219 --> 00:59:22.980
Aren't I sexy, right? And he would offer those

00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:26.099
things just for funsies because he knew that

00:59:26.099 --> 00:59:28.559
it was potentially going to get reinforced. And

00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:31.039
that's coming from a way different place than

00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:33.860
being. moving forward because you're getting

00:59:33.860 --> 00:59:36.280
away from something yucky I think that there's

00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:39.480
so much untapped potential in positive reinforcement

00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:43.260
with horses it's it's to me it's mind -boggling

00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:47.539
how like what we could potentially do yeah I

00:59:47.539 --> 00:59:51.079
agree and I would love I would love to see like

00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.320
if more people were doing that because I agree

00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.579
because like it just their whole emotional state

00:59:56.579 --> 00:59:59.400
is different I'm kind of obsessed with this one

00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:01.849
horse I think I might I'm so obsessed with it.

01:00:01.889 --> 01:00:05.170
I might name my puppy it. Do you watch, do you

01:00:05.170 --> 01:00:08.309
ever watch like dressage videos online? Like

01:00:08.309 --> 01:00:11.289
you should look up Zonic Plus. Have you seen

01:00:11.289 --> 01:00:14.909
that horse? I haven't. Oh my God. It's a young

01:00:14.909 --> 01:00:19.590
black stallion. And this guy does this really

01:00:19.590 --> 01:00:23.929
high, high end, like world -class dressage with

01:00:23.929 --> 01:00:27.340
this horse. and it's young it's like eight they've

01:00:27.340 --> 01:00:32.480
been doing phenomenal and um he talks about how

01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.920
he cares about the horse being happy and comfortable

01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:39.820
and i'm not saying he's clicker training but

01:00:39.820 --> 01:00:43.900
and i'm supple and you went watching the horse

01:00:43.900 --> 01:00:47.739
like i've sometimes watched like he does freestyle

01:00:48.670 --> 01:00:51.889
dressage so i've watched some of his runs like

01:00:51.889 --> 01:00:54.989
multiple times because they give me so much joy

01:00:54.989 --> 01:00:59.869
because it's so beautiful this horror like you

01:00:59.869 --> 01:01:03.809
could tell it's like light yeah and you know

01:01:03.809 --> 01:01:09.849
so clearly you know his training method who knows

01:01:09.849 --> 01:01:12.349
maybe i'm dead wrong and he beats the heck out

01:01:12.349 --> 01:01:15.590
of it and whatever but i don't think so i doubt

01:01:15.590 --> 01:01:20.130
it i don't like it No, no. Yeah. And, you know,

01:01:20.150 --> 01:01:22.650
a lot of what I did with with Tara was dressage

01:01:22.650 --> 01:01:25.809
based, you know, and she was such a big dog that.

01:01:26.570 --> 01:01:29.150
I almost had to teach her dressage level stuff

01:01:29.150 --> 01:01:31.269
in order for her to be able to do freestyle,

01:01:31.610 --> 01:01:34.769
right? Like for such a big dog physically. Yeah.

01:01:34.929 --> 01:01:37.949
You know, so you can, I mean, I clicker trained

01:01:37.949 --> 01:01:40.389
all of that with Tara extension and collection

01:01:40.389 --> 01:01:45.250
of her trot, you know, doing side passes, all

01:01:45.250 --> 01:01:47.289
of that sort of stuff. You can do it with a dog.

01:01:47.349 --> 01:01:49.809
You can do it with a horse. I'm really excited

01:01:49.809 --> 01:01:52.929
to try things with Brina because, you know, starting

01:01:52.929 --> 01:01:56.539
with a younger horse that. doesn't have like

01:01:56.539 --> 01:01:59.139
Roger had a lot of physical limitations and as

01:01:59.139 --> 01:02:02.440
he got older so for her she has some physical

01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:05.239
limitations we're doing some rehab work with

01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:07.960
her but I feel very much like I'm doing with

01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:09.800
her what I did with Roger. Everybody with Roger

01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:11.619
was like, oh, you should just stop riding him.

01:02:11.639 --> 01:02:14.820
And I rode him until he was 30. You know, we

01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:19.159
continued to ride because I was able to communicate

01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:21.320
with him in different ways with the clicker training.

01:02:21.460 --> 01:02:23.280
So I was able to teach him things to keep him

01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:27.389
safe, but also. getting him to be self -motivated

01:02:27.389 --> 01:02:30.050
to carry himself properly and stay strong. I'm

01:02:30.050 --> 01:02:32.570
doing very similar things with Brina. They, you

01:02:32.570 --> 01:02:35.909
know, she basically has a career ending injury

01:02:35.909 --> 01:02:39.869
and I'm already back riding her and I'm working

01:02:39.869 --> 01:02:43.369
on building up her motivation and, and her strength.

01:02:43.409 --> 01:02:47.699
And I'm so excited to see what I can. unveil

01:02:47.699 --> 01:02:50.340
in there right like that beautiful movement and

01:02:50.340 --> 01:02:53.519
the expression of movement um when they're joyful

01:02:53.519 --> 01:02:57.659
it's yeah I'm just so excited to to kind of find

01:02:57.659 --> 01:03:01.280
that level with her like with Roger I would when

01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:04.559
I couldn't ride anymore we would um go over to

01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:08.679
hiking trails and We would do just walks and

01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:11.679
I would do, you know, like walk, trot and canter,

01:03:11.699 --> 01:03:14.440
just running around in the field with him, literally

01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:18.099
like an off leash dog. And so I'm really excited

01:03:18.099 --> 01:03:20.139
to be able to get to that level with Brina where

01:03:20.139 --> 01:03:24.079
she finds it fun and joyful to express herself

01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:26.780
that way instead of running away from something.

01:03:27.470 --> 01:03:31.070
You know how Bob Bailey has chicken camps? Yeah.

01:03:31.150 --> 01:03:34.269
You should get like a bunch of people to volunteer

01:03:34.269 --> 01:03:37.409
their horses because I will go and have horse

01:03:37.409 --> 01:03:40.429
training camps. Oh, let's do it. That would be

01:03:40.429 --> 01:03:43.909
so exciting. I would totally do it. Right? Because

01:03:43.909 --> 01:03:47.989
I find that when you train a different species.

01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:52.039
Like, I think, too, for a lot of people, A, like,

01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:54.440
again, now it takes some pressure off, right?

01:03:54.500 --> 01:03:56.940
Because now it's not your dog and you don't have

01:03:56.940 --> 01:03:59.300
this goal and it's not life or death because

01:03:59.300 --> 01:04:02.079
we all know if your dog doesn't do what you want,

01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:08.119
it's the end of the world. And but you also you

01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:11.699
also can't just. Do your like click, cheat, click,

01:04:11.739 --> 01:04:13.440
cheat, because it's not going to work. Right.

01:04:13.460 --> 01:04:15.320
Because the animal is going to learn differently.

01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:18.760
Like you kind of just explain like how the horse

01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:20.719
learns differently. Just like when I trained

01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:23.659
Q the pig, like we had to figure out, wait, how

01:04:23.659 --> 01:04:26.440
does he actually learn? Because he learned differently.

01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:28.880
We still use a clicker, but he learned differently.

01:04:29.539 --> 01:04:33.699
And so they have to like step outside that. And

01:04:33.699 --> 01:04:37.590
then I think they really do have to. utilize

01:04:37.590 --> 01:04:41.989
that observation piece right because you got

01:04:41.989 --> 01:04:45.550
to figure it out yep yep the horses are not going

01:04:45.550 --> 01:04:47.449
to fill in the blanks for you like dogs will

01:04:47.449 --> 01:04:50.710
there you go see i'm giving you all these ideas

01:04:50.710 --> 01:04:54.909
we'll have horse camp you guys can come horse

01:04:54.909 --> 01:04:59.289
camp i would love that horse camp let's do it

01:04:59.769 --> 01:05:02.769
Let's do it. Then you're going to start training.

01:05:02.849 --> 01:05:05.849
I was telling Lori, like where I started, I just

01:05:05.849 --> 01:05:08.269
started doing nose work with my dogs and the

01:05:08.269 --> 01:05:13.349
place where she has, where I go for lessons,

01:05:13.530 --> 01:05:16.769
the, on the property, the people that own the

01:05:16.769 --> 01:05:20.309
property, they have chickens. Day one, I show

01:05:20.309 --> 01:05:22.030
up there, there's snow on the ground, you know,

01:05:22.030 --> 01:05:24.389
and I'm like, chickens, will they let us use

01:05:24.389 --> 01:05:27.289
the chickens? Can we try chickens? I'm like,

01:05:27.289 --> 01:05:31.139
and she looks at me like, You know, I think they

01:05:31.139 --> 01:05:35.599
would. So I'm waiting for the snow to melt and

01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:38.219
then I'm going to be like, all right, let's talk

01:05:38.219 --> 01:05:40.619
to the owners because we got to have our own

01:05:40.619 --> 01:05:44.260
little chicken. That would be hilarious. That

01:05:44.260 --> 01:05:48.239
would be hilarious. I certainly know enough horses

01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:50.920
around here. We could certainly do that. Right.

01:05:51.139 --> 01:05:55.659
Wouldn't that be a cool thing? And I can't imagine

01:05:55.659 --> 01:06:01.349
like. liability aside if you own a horse right

01:06:01.349 --> 01:06:05.489
like and someone could teach your horse something

01:06:05.489 --> 01:06:10.730
functional you should be like oh i don't know

01:06:10.730 --> 01:06:12.789
how open -minded horse people are i mean like

01:06:12.789 --> 01:06:16.090
i know with me anything training anything you

01:06:16.090 --> 01:06:17.929
want to show me something here here's my dog

01:06:17.929 --> 01:06:20.949
show me something like i can't get enough of

01:06:20.949 --> 01:06:24.050
training i'll bet we would get plenty of volunteers

01:06:25.230 --> 01:06:27.269
Plenty of volunteers. I mean, honestly, there's

01:06:27.269 --> 01:06:29.769
so many things that with Roger and with Brina

01:06:29.769 --> 01:06:31.809
both, I think you'd get plenty of volunteers

01:06:31.809 --> 01:06:35.809
because I think that there are, just like with

01:06:35.809 --> 01:06:37.730
dogs, there are certain personalities that are

01:06:37.730 --> 01:06:40.650
going to respond well to traditional methods,

01:06:40.869 --> 01:06:42.570
right? But there's also certain personalities

01:06:42.570 --> 01:06:44.550
that are not going to respond well to traditional

01:06:44.550 --> 01:06:48.699
methods. And Roger and Brina. especially with

01:06:48.699 --> 01:06:51.320
Roger. Like, I can't tell you as a, as a young

01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:53.800
teenager, there's so many walls I hit with him

01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:56.320
using traditional methods where we would go 10

01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:59.880
rounds and still like, you know, the horse wins

01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:02.340
because traditional methods can fail sometimes

01:07:02.340 --> 01:07:04.900
with certain personalities. Like he was very

01:07:04.900 --> 01:07:07.260
opinionated. And if I was going to pick a fight

01:07:07.260 --> 01:07:12.889
with him, I ate the dirt. I would fall off. so

01:07:12.889 --> 01:07:14.349
there were certain things that i just learned

01:07:14.349 --> 01:07:16.409
to like live with right like this is a quirk

01:07:16.409 --> 01:07:19.010
he's going to be excited out on trail rides and

01:07:19.010 --> 01:07:21.250
he can't walk home he's too excited he's just

01:07:21.250 --> 01:07:23.969
going to jig on the way home or he's just going

01:07:23.969 --> 01:07:26.030
to always be wiggly when i give him a bath this

01:07:26.030 --> 01:07:27.650
is just something i have to live with because

01:07:28.650 --> 01:07:31.090
whips and yanking on his face and saying, whoa,

01:07:31.210 --> 01:07:33.269
and trying to like shove them against a wall.

01:07:33.409 --> 01:07:35.409
That's just, it's not going to work to get him

01:07:35.409 --> 01:07:37.869
to hold still. It's just, you know, bare minimum.

01:07:37.909 --> 01:07:40.670
I might just like have a really angsty horse

01:07:40.670 --> 01:07:43.449
bath, but with clicker training, I was able to

01:07:43.449 --> 01:07:46.030
solve those problems in like one or two sessions.

01:07:46.090 --> 01:07:49.150
It was. ridiculous. It was like all I had to

01:07:49.150 --> 01:07:51.349
do, I solved the jigging thing on trail rides

01:07:51.349 --> 01:07:55.150
with one session. Literally all I did was I brought

01:07:55.150 --> 01:07:58.010
my clicker and I brought my treats. And if he

01:07:58.010 --> 01:08:01.170
even slowed down in his trotting home. I would

01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:03.469
click and treat him. I just captured it. And

01:08:03.469 --> 01:08:05.269
he was like, oh, you want me to go slower? Well,

01:08:05.309 --> 01:08:07.070
how about a walk? I'm like, yeah, click treat,

01:08:07.250 --> 01:08:09.010
right? And he's like, oh, you want me to walk?

01:08:09.170 --> 01:08:11.989
Click treat. And that's all I had to do was just

01:08:11.989 --> 01:08:14.590
capture him going slightly slower than usual.

01:08:14.789 --> 01:08:17.729
And he was way more motivated for the treats

01:08:17.729 --> 01:08:20.310
than he was to get home to the barn. It was so

01:08:20.310 --> 01:08:23.729
easy. And the same thing with the bath. All I

01:08:23.729 --> 01:08:26.770
had to do was break it down like I would any

01:08:26.770 --> 01:08:28.850
old training thing. Here's a little bit of water

01:08:28.850 --> 01:08:31.640
with the hose. click treat for your feet being

01:08:31.640 --> 01:08:34.279
still oh it's splashing over here to the side

01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:36.619
click treat for your feet being still oh it's

01:08:36.619 --> 01:08:38.439
touching your hoof now click treat for your feet

01:08:38.439 --> 01:08:41.859
being still and then poof problem solved as i

01:08:41.859 --> 01:08:44.760
built it up from there it was so much easier

01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:47.840
than just saying like whoa whoa whoa a million

01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:50.500
times and yanking on his halter and you know

01:08:50.500 --> 01:08:52.819
that's all that traditional training would give

01:08:52.819 --> 01:08:55.060
you, or put the water on him until he finally

01:08:55.060 --> 01:08:58.239
gives up and stands there. But that was never

01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.319
going to work with his personality. Flooding

01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:03.699
did not work with him. So I think that there's

01:09:03.699 --> 01:09:07.260
plenty of horses out there who potentially have

01:09:07.260 --> 01:09:10.850
realized that. they're willing to put up the

01:09:10.850 --> 01:09:13.430
fight against the traditional training and it

01:09:13.430 --> 01:09:16.289
doesn't necessarily work for them. Or maybe you

01:09:16.289 --> 01:09:18.750
get the behavior, but then you get all this icky,

01:09:18.789 --> 01:09:20.890
yucky, emotional stuff that comes along with

01:09:20.890 --> 01:09:22.989
it. I think we'd probably have tons of people

01:09:22.989 --> 01:09:25.069
who would be like, yeah, if you want to try and

01:09:25.069 --> 01:09:26.810
fix this problem with clicker training here.

01:09:28.930 --> 01:09:32.609
Right. Yeah. Well, the other thing though, that

01:09:32.609 --> 01:09:35.210
you're pointing out that is really important

01:09:35.210 --> 01:09:39.090
that you're just kind of, like glossing over

01:09:39.090 --> 01:09:41.970
because you're a clicker, you're a clicker trainer,

01:09:42.029 --> 01:09:44.550
you're a shaper, right? Basically shaping. Like

01:09:44.550 --> 01:09:49.850
I struggle with getting my students to understand

01:09:49.850 --> 01:09:53.369
shaping because they want to go from like, okay,

01:09:53.409 --> 01:09:57.010
my dog just learned how to rotate their butt

01:09:57.010 --> 01:10:00.250
to the right. Now it should find front perfectly.

01:10:00.449 --> 01:10:04.930
Dude, no, like they struggle with approximation

01:10:04.930 --> 01:10:09.819
and you just. gave like a bunch of perfect examples

01:10:09.819 --> 01:10:14.460
of how you did not go from a trot to a walk,

01:10:14.619 --> 01:10:16.979
how you went a little slower, a little slower

01:10:16.979 --> 01:10:18.539
and a little slower. And then you got to walk

01:10:18.539 --> 01:10:21.500
or how you didn't go from like, I'm hosing you

01:10:21.500 --> 01:10:25.739
full on. I'm not hosing you to I'm hosing you

01:10:25.739 --> 01:10:30.710
full on like that. Baby steps, those baby steps,

01:10:30.930 --> 01:10:34.590
like and how tiny can you break something down?

01:10:34.810 --> 01:10:38.390
I think the ultimate irony is the reason people

01:10:38.390 --> 01:10:42.170
don't break it down is because subconsciously

01:10:42.170 --> 01:10:45.270
they want to get there faster. And I'm always

01:10:45.270 --> 01:10:49.369
like, let me tell you, the faster way to get

01:10:49.369 --> 01:10:52.850
there is to break it into tiny pieces. You get

01:10:52.850 --> 01:10:58.649
there way faster, way faster. Yeah. Yeah. Breaking

01:10:58.649 --> 01:11:00.270
it down. And you're going to get the emotional

01:11:00.270 --> 01:11:03.189
piece that you want to go with it as well. Right.

01:11:04.069 --> 01:11:06.050
That's really, really important as well, because

01:11:06.050 --> 01:11:09.149
you could get there faster, sloppier, but with

01:11:09.149 --> 01:11:10.970
more frustration and stuff, you're going to have

01:11:10.970 --> 01:11:13.170
to go back and try to clean up later. And then

01:11:13.170 --> 01:11:15.850
that's way harder to clean up than just doing

01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:19.729
it slow but fast, you know, by teeny, teeny baby

01:11:19.729 --> 01:11:23.180
steps from the beginning. Yeah, definitely. And

01:11:23.180 --> 01:11:25.520
getting the right emotional piece in there. Right.

01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:27.819
Emotional piece going on with it. That's a big

01:11:27.819 --> 01:11:30.079
thing that I'm working on with Brina a lot because

01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:32.619
she is also traditional trained, right? 99 %

01:11:32.619 --> 01:11:36.699
of horses are. She was very, she was an interesting

01:11:36.699 --> 01:11:38.420
mix when I first bought her. She was a little

01:11:38.420 --> 01:11:42.260
shut down. She's this giant horse. And when I

01:11:42.260 --> 01:11:45.159
test rode her a couple of times, I remember telling

01:11:45.159 --> 01:11:47.880
the owner, I feel like there's a big engine in

01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:49.680
there, but she's not willing to give it to me.

01:11:49.779 --> 01:11:53.170
It was like. I had to squeeze so hard and, and

01:11:53.170 --> 01:11:55.310
really get after her to try and get her to even

01:11:55.310 --> 01:11:57.289
just give me anything more than like a pokey

01:11:57.289 --> 01:12:01.789
little jug. And, and, and there's, I mean, she

01:12:01.789 --> 01:12:04.689
was like this big couch potato. Cause she's part

01:12:04.689 --> 01:12:08.460
draft horse. She's a big beast. So she was a

01:12:08.460 --> 01:12:10.760
little shut down. But then when you would get

01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.939
her to do things, it was with pinned ears and

01:12:13.939 --> 01:12:16.939
threatening to bite and like, oh, I'll do the

01:12:16.939 --> 01:12:19.539
thing. But you know how I feel about it. And

01:12:19.539 --> 01:12:23.220
so I've really been doing lots of just teeny

01:12:23.220 --> 01:12:26.539
baby steps. Like, it's real interesting once

01:12:26.539 --> 01:12:28.720
I've slowed down and kind of listened to how

01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:32.770
she feels about things. She's got a weird, had

01:12:32.770 --> 01:12:36.609
a weird thing about stepping up on a stool next

01:12:36.609 --> 01:12:39.409
to her that got lots of pinned ears and bite

01:12:39.409 --> 01:12:42.409
threats. And anything you throw over her back,

01:12:42.449 --> 01:12:45.069
like a saddle pad or a saddle or, God forbid,

01:12:45.189 --> 01:12:47.930
a blanket. She hates blankets. So I've done a

01:12:47.930 --> 01:12:52.850
lot of start buttons and just lots of just reinforcements

01:12:52.850 --> 01:12:56.449
for. teeny, teeny baby steps. Like I walked next

01:12:56.449 --> 01:12:59.529
to the stool. Oh, I put my foot on the stool,

01:12:59.590 --> 01:13:02.289
but I didn't even put my weight on it. And reinforcing

01:13:02.289 --> 01:13:06.590
not just the calmness, but calmness, holding

01:13:06.590 --> 01:13:09.930
still and happy face, right? Like ears forward,

01:13:10.130 --> 01:13:13.970
head forward. And now we have this lovely rapport

01:13:13.970 --> 01:13:16.930
where when I walk up to her with a saddle in

01:13:16.930 --> 01:13:19.409
my hand and I have to step on the stool to put

01:13:19.409 --> 01:13:22.079
it on her back. She looks at me, she puts her

01:13:22.079 --> 01:13:24.300
head forward and she puts her ears forward and

01:13:24.300 --> 01:13:26.020
she just drops her head a little bit. Just kind

01:13:26.020 --> 01:13:28.380
of saying like, yep, go ahead. You can do that,

01:13:28.420 --> 01:13:30.859
right? And it's by doing all those little baby

01:13:30.859 --> 01:13:33.420
steps to get there. And we got there quickly,

01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:36.140
but you had to start with the baby steps. It's

01:13:36.140 --> 01:13:39.680
that whole go slow to go fast. Yep. So did you

01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:42.640
buy her because you knew she would be a challenge

01:13:42.640 --> 01:13:44.800
and you just wanted to like get a challenge?

01:13:44.819 --> 01:13:48.500
Because you didn't make it sound like a horse

01:13:48.500 --> 01:13:53.020
I would want to buy. No, I did the exact thing

01:13:53.020 --> 01:13:55.960
of what I said I was going to do. You know, it's

01:13:55.960 --> 01:13:59.920
like it's like it's like getting a God. People

01:13:59.920 --> 01:14:01.760
do this to me all the time. It's like people

01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:03.920
ask me what breed of dog they should get. I tell

01:14:03.920 --> 01:14:05.479
them what would be perfect for their lifestyle

01:14:05.479 --> 01:14:07.439
and then they go do the opposite. Oh, my God.

01:14:07.479 --> 01:14:11.699
I could strangle them when they do that. So here

01:14:11.699 --> 01:14:13.819
I am talking to all my friends going, you know.

01:14:14.319 --> 01:14:16.960
When Tara and Ringo died, I was traumatized and

01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:19.720
I didn't want to buy a puppy, but I really wanted

01:14:19.720 --> 01:14:24.079
to spend their last years devoting all my attention

01:14:24.079 --> 01:14:26.300
to them. So I didn't get a puppy. Bad family

01:14:26.300 --> 01:14:29.500
planning, right? So when Roger was really, truly

01:14:29.500 --> 01:14:31.960
ready to be retired, like the last year of his

01:14:31.960 --> 01:14:34.060
life, I could tell he didn't want to do stuff

01:14:34.060 --> 01:14:36.619
anymore. He just wanted to be loved on. Great.

01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:38.619
Now I'm going to work on my family planning.

01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:40.260
I'm not going to wait for him to pass before

01:14:40.260 --> 01:14:43.979
I get a horse. So I'd been searching. I told

01:14:43.979 --> 01:14:46.500
all my friends, what I'm going to get is this

01:14:46.500 --> 01:14:49.859
perfect husband safe horse. He's already trained.

01:14:49.920 --> 01:14:52.560
No matter how busy I get, I can just get on him

01:14:52.560 --> 01:14:54.960
and go. It's just, that's just what I need. I'm

01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:57.300
too busy to train a horse right now. And when

01:14:57.300 --> 01:14:59.380
I get bored of that, because it's not going to

01:14:59.380 --> 01:15:01.199
be a training challenge, I'll just give it to

01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:03.399
my husband. That can be his trail riding horse.

01:15:03.460 --> 01:15:06.560
And then I'll get my next horse. This is my good

01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:09.699
family planning plan. So I go out and I ride

01:15:09.699 --> 01:15:12.180
all the horses that fit that category, right?

01:15:12.260 --> 01:15:14.800
I think I test. rode like six or seven horses

01:15:14.800 --> 01:15:19.239
and just there was no spark it was like dating

01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:22.779
it was like none of this like I was like he's

01:15:22.779 --> 01:15:26.659
perfect on paper he's perfect on paper but it

01:15:26.659 --> 01:15:32.890
doesn't give me the tingles I was like, I'm bored.

01:15:33.010 --> 01:15:35.210
I don't go home thinking about him. I'm like,

01:15:35.289 --> 01:15:39.750
I just, it doesn't do it for me. And I don't

01:15:39.750 --> 01:15:42.130
know why. And I thought I was going to get a

01:15:42.130 --> 01:15:45.170
gelding. And, you know, I kept looking at horses

01:15:45.170 --> 01:15:48.050
online. And I, for some reason, I was just really

01:15:48.050 --> 01:15:51.090
drawn to mares. And I've never been drawn to

01:15:51.090 --> 01:15:54.109
mares. I've never been a person who enjoyed riding

01:15:54.109 --> 01:15:56.829
mares. I was always a gelding person. But I kept

01:15:56.829 --> 01:16:00.630
looking. And the first. And Brina was the only

01:16:00.630 --> 01:16:04.350
mare that I actually test rode. But I just, you

01:16:04.350 --> 01:16:07.090
know, there was a spark. I could see her. She

01:16:07.090 --> 01:16:11.029
was kind of grouchy. She was kind of like, there

01:16:11.029 --> 01:16:13.789
was no spark in her eyes. She looked at me like,

01:16:13.949 --> 01:16:17.630
what? Like, I don't give a shit whether you walk

01:16:17.630 --> 01:16:19.670
away or not. Like, you're giving me a peppermint?

01:16:19.710 --> 01:16:24.649
Make my day. I don't care. When I rode her, she

01:16:24.649 --> 01:16:30.090
kicked, she bucked. It was hard to steer. But

01:16:30.090 --> 01:16:34.710
there was a start. It was love at first sight.

01:16:35.510 --> 01:16:38.789
It's terrible. I went home and I couldn't stop

01:16:38.789 --> 01:16:44.180
thinking about her. Yeah, I could feel I was

01:16:44.180 --> 01:16:46.880
like, there's something here. You know, it's

01:16:46.880 --> 01:16:49.239
weird. It just made no sense. But I went home.

01:16:49.279 --> 01:16:51.619
I kept thinking about her. And, you know, I couldn't

01:16:51.619 --> 01:16:53.800
wait to ride her again. And I went back up and

01:16:53.800 --> 01:16:57.699
I rode her again. And I was like, shit, shit,

01:16:57.939 --> 01:17:00.760
I really like this horse. Like, this is the complete

01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:02.979
opposite of everything that I thought. And I

01:17:02.979 --> 01:17:05.220
thought about it for weeks and weeks. And then

01:17:05.220 --> 01:17:06.460
I just kind of got to a point where I was like,

01:17:06.539 --> 01:17:09.189
I can't stop thinking about her. done. It's a

01:17:09.189 --> 01:17:12.250
done deal. I'm going to take her home. Women

01:17:12.250 --> 01:17:20.130
love bad situations. I'm such a sucker. I'm such

01:17:20.130 --> 01:17:21.970
a sucker for that. I'm like, oh, it's broken.

01:17:22.090 --> 01:17:26.579
Let me fix it. Let me fix it. That's it. And

01:17:26.579 --> 01:17:28.880
a lot of her behavior issues, like now that I've

01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:31.060
really been uncovering so much of this, a lot

01:17:31.060 --> 01:17:32.979
of her behavior issues are physical issues. I

01:17:32.979 --> 01:17:37.000
mean, it's so interesting in the horse world.

01:17:37.079 --> 01:17:41.920
I think that there's so much focus on soundness,

01:17:41.960 --> 01:17:45.319
right? People focus so much on soundness in horses

01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:50.829
and a lot less on the relationship. So much of

01:17:50.829 --> 01:17:54.109
what everybody was telling me about her issues

01:17:54.109 --> 01:17:57.069
was behavior. They're like, oh, she's stubborn.

01:17:57.270 --> 01:17:58.869
She just doesn't like to work. She has a bad

01:17:58.869 --> 01:18:00.789
work ethic. Oh, you just got to warm her up.

01:18:00.930 --> 01:18:04.409
You need to work her more consistently. And when

01:18:04.409 --> 01:18:06.510
I brought her home and started working with her,

01:18:06.550 --> 01:18:08.909
within the first week, I was like, whoa, there's

01:18:08.909 --> 01:18:11.670
something way more serious going on. And I talked

01:18:11.670 --> 01:18:13.989
to her previous owner. I talked to her previous

01:18:13.989 --> 01:18:17.869
trainer. And everyone even had me convinced that

01:18:17.869 --> 01:18:21.380
it was behavior. And I had to go to three different

01:18:21.380 --> 01:18:23.479
vets, and it turned out it was physical. She

01:18:23.479 --> 01:18:28.760
had a medial ligament holding one of her tendons

01:18:28.760 --> 01:18:33.699
in place that was completely torn. And they kept

01:18:33.699 --> 01:18:36.100
saying it was behavioral, which is really opposite

01:18:36.100 --> 01:18:41.600
of what so much is considered usual. Problem

01:18:41.600 --> 01:18:44.300
solving in the horse world, they focus so much

01:18:44.300 --> 01:18:47.180
on soundness, usually very rarely on behavior,

01:18:47.340 --> 01:18:49.800
but it ended up being a soundness issue. And

01:18:49.800 --> 01:18:53.560
now that I've worked her through that, the motivation

01:18:53.560 --> 01:18:58.479
and the enthusiasm to work is like almost overwhelming.

01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:01.319
Like I do not have an engine problem. That horse

01:19:01.319 --> 01:19:05.180
has so much power and so much motivation that.

01:19:05.470 --> 01:19:07.449
we're not cantering at this point. I can't even

01:19:07.449 --> 01:19:10.609
handle the canter. It's so much motivation. I'm

01:19:10.609 --> 01:19:12.890
like, we need to make sure we have breaks before

01:19:12.890 --> 01:19:17.689
we hit that much adrenaline and gas. You know,

01:19:17.689 --> 01:19:19.390
and in the dog world, I feel like it's the exact

01:19:19.390 --> 01:19:22.170
opposite. It's so much more about relationship.

01:19:22.850 --> 01:19:25.609
And, you know, you taught me so much, Petra,

01:19:25.649 --> 01:19:29.109
about really being able to see soundness, even

01:19:29.109 --> 01:19:32.569
those little teeny things can make a huge difference.

01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:36.800
So many of the behavior cases that I see here,

01:19:36.939 --> 01:19:41.399
just at Wonder Dogs, so much of it, I can be

01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:45.439
resolved through physical health. It's such a

01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:47.100
thing that people think is always a training

01:19:47.100 --> 01:19:49.340
or relationship issue. And so much of it can

01:19:49.340 --> 01:19:53.260
be soundness. It's amazing. Yeah, that, I mean,

01:19:53.279 --> 01:19:57.319
I will say, well, there's a big push, really

01:19:57.319 --> 01:20:00.399
big. There was always some emphasis on it, like

01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:05.800
at FENZI. but there's like a huge push in that

01:20:05.800 --> 01:20:09.359
direction. Now, probably because Denise has had

01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:14.640
her dogs, her dog has had some health issues,

01:20:14.760 --> 01:20:19.199
right? Soundness issues. So then that becomes

01:20:19.199 --> 01:20:21.399
a thing. And then, you know, she's really public

01:20:21.399 --> 01:20:26.079
about it. So now, which is good because there's,

01:20:26.079 --> 01:20:29.279
I think this really growing trend and emphasis

01:20:29.279 --> 01:20:33.619
on. the physical aspect of it. I always found

01:20:33.619 --> 01:20:36.979
like the biggest challenge I had with the physical

01:20:36.979 --> 01:20:41.319
stuff is, you know, I come from an athletic background,

01:20:41.380 --> 01:20:47.060
so it makes sense to me, right? But 99 % of dog

01:20:47.060 --> 01:20:50.840
trainers, zero physical, you know, zero sport,

01:20:51.020 --> 01:20:54.699
whatever background. So that's not even on their

01:20:54.699 --> 01:20:58.000
radar. And when I would try to explain to them,

01:20:58.020 --> 01:21:01.989
like it's, Be proactive. Like it helps your dog

01:21:01.989 --> 01:21:05.649
and on and on. Never worked. Never resonated.

01:21:05.729 --> 01:21:09.810
I used to like do surveys, like everything. The

01:21:09.810 --> 01:21:13.850
only time it resonated and resonated, really

01:21:13.850 --> 01:21:18.949
resonated was when their dog was hurt. Then they

01:21:18.949 --> 01:21:23.609
understood. And then they were on board for life.

01:21:23.750 --> 01:21:27.930
Like every dog after that. like all in, get it,

01:21:27.989 --> 01:21:32.029
understand it now, whatever. But boy was, and

01:21:32.029 --> 01:21:36.310
I still think to a certain extent, it is a huge

01:21:36.310 --> 01:21:39.770
challenge to really get people to understand

01:21:39.770 --> 01:21:43.810
that it is important, that it is part of it,

01:21:43.850 --> 01:21:51.229
that it matters. What an impact it has on the

01:21:51.229 --> 01:21:56.050
dog's ability to learn and work. Mm hmm. Yeah,

01:21:56.130 --> 01:21:58.470
1000%. You know, it's it's such a huge cultural

01:21:58.470 --> 01:22:01.569
shift that we still need to see in the dog world,

01:22:01.630 --> 01:22:04.960
you know. Because they can listen to you saying

01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:07.060
it, but there's a million other people in their

01:22:07.060 --> 01:22:09.119
world saying the exact opposite, probably also

01:22:09.119 --> 01:22:11.560
including their vet nine times out of ten. I

01:22:11.560 --> 01:22:13.800
can't tell you how many times that I took Tara

01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:17.279
to her GP saying, you know, oh, she's doing this

01:22:17.279 --> 01:22:19.560
weird thing with her shoulder. And I would make

01:22:19.560 --> 01:22:21.500
him come out into the parking lot and watch her

01:22:21.500 --> 01:22:24.340
do side passes and he can't see it. Versus if

01:22:24.340 --> 01:22:26.579
you, you know, if I had you watch it, you'd be

01:22:26.579 --> 01:22:28.619
like, oh, yeah, I totally see that. Right. Like

01:22:28.619 --> 01:22:33.010
it takes a level of. subtlety and eye training

01:22:33.010 --> 01:22:37.010
to see the subtleties versus like a dead lame

01:22:37.010 --> 01:22:40.010
limping thing. Right. But, um, you know, there

01:22:40.010 --> 01:22:43.869
was even, um, a behavior case that I saw was

01:22:43.869 --> 01:22:46.369
probably a month ago now, cause she has started

01:22:46.369 --> 01:22:49.630
in our reactive dog program now, but there's

01:22:49.630 --> 01:22:54.329
literally, um, a, a veterinarian about an hour

01:22:54.329 --> 01:22:56.829
away from us that brought her dog to me because

01:22:57.710 --> 01:22:59.789
Her coworker, the other veterinarian had brought

01:22:59.789 --> 01:23:02.390
her dog to me and her dog was like, had all these

01:23:02.390 --> 01:23:05.930
issues, separation anxiety, this extreme phobias,

01:23:05.930 --> 01:23:10.430
all these issues. And yes, he had issues. But

01:23:10.430 --> 01:23:14.050
I said, I feel like there could be pain complicating

01:23:14.050 --> 01:23:16.909
this. And even in my office, I didn't see anything

01:23:16.909 --> 01:23:19.149
that, you know, and I've got a well -trained

01:23:19.149 --> 01:23:21.369
eye now with all my experience with Tara and

01:23:21.369 --> 01:23:25.060
Roger. I didn't see anything, but I said, you

01:23:25.060 --> 01:23:27.800
know, I just have this feeling that there could

01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:29.960
also be something going on. There was a sudden

01:23:29.960 --> 01:23:33.439
onset, which was a big red flag for me of his

01:23:33.439 --> 01:23:37.199
behavioral issues. And I said, go home. Here's

01:23:37.199 --> 01:23:40.039
the, these, you know, desensitization games that

01:23:40.039 --> 01:23:41.699
I want you to play, but I want you to put them

01:23:41.699 --> 01:23:44.199
on some pain meds for just 10 days and let's

01:23:44.199 --> 01:23:46.739
see what happens. And literally in three days,

01:23:46.779 --> 01:23:49.020
she sent me an email and said, you gave me my

01:23:49.020 --> 01:23:54.000
dog back. She was a vet, you know, she does this

01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.300
all day, every day, you know? And so I think

01:23:57.300 --> 01:24:00.439
that so much of dog training is relationship

01:24:00.439 --> 01:24:03.920
focused, but I wish that there was a better balance

01:24:03.920 --> 01:24:05.859
in the dog world. I wish there was a better balance

01:24:05.859 --> 01:24:08.779
of physical health. And in the horse world, I

01:24:08.779 --> 01:24:10.359
wish there was a better balance on relationship

01:24:10.359 --> 01:24:13.640
health. That's not based on punishment. I think

01:24:13.640 --> 01:24:16.840
the big problem is the dogs can't say it and

01:24:16.840 --> 01:24:20.800
people can't see it. And our dogs like, Their

01:24:20.800 --> 01:24:26.680
pain tolerance is so high that they'll work and

01:24:26.680 --> 01:24:31.180
keep working even when, like, I mean, I would

01:24:31.180 --> 01:24:34.680
see it all the time. Like agility, I'd sit there,

01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:37.359
I'd be like, I can't even watch. Sometimes I'm

01:24:37.359 --> 01:24:38.979
watching an obedience show, I'm like, oh, my

01:24:38.979 --> 01:24:43.340
God, I can't even watch. But people don't see

01:24:43.340 --> 01:24:46.720
it. And I have had like similar situation. Like

01:24:46.720 --> 01:24:49.520
I've had people come, like they were coming from

01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:52.539
all over and they've gone to multiple, multiple

01:24:52.539 --> 01:24:55.899
vets, not throwing shade on vets. They're not

01:24:55.899 --> 01:24:59.399
trained to notice certain things. Right. And

01:24:59.399 --> 01:25:02.539
they're like, I just had this feeling, but I

01:25:02.539 --> 01:25:06.310
don't, you know, like. they they didn't catch

01:25:06.310 --> 01:25:09.970
it like so I do think like rehab people that

01:25:09.970 --> 01:25:14.270
do rehab that's growing but even then sometimes

01:25:14.270 --> 01:25:18.550
if they're not seeing performance dogs right

01:25:18.550 --> 01:25:23.710
because what our dogs do is very different and

01:25:23.710 --> 01:25:28.479
it's very specialized yeah Yep. Yeah. And, you

01:25:28.479 --> 01:25:31.680
know, I would say the same cultural issue happens

01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.880
in the horse world. I honestly am the same way

01:25:35.880 --> 01:25:38.079
about a lot of competitive venues with horses

01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:42.659
I can't watch because I see the stress and the

01:25:42.659 --> 01:25:46.020
pain in their faces. You know, their bodies are

01:25:46.020 --> 01:25:48.500
beautiful, their movements are beautiful, but

01:25:48.500 --> 01:25:51.800
I can't see past the tension in the face, the

01:25:51.800 --> 01:25:54.520
pinned ears, the wrinkled noses, the wrinkled

01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:58.020
eyes, the swishing tails. Those are stress signals

01:25:58.020 --> 01:26:02.340
and culturally. Speaking as part of that culture,

01:26:02.420 --> 01:26:05.920
raised in that culture, we are not raised to

01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:09.279
see those things as stress, pain, discomfort,

01:26:09.699 --> 01:26:12.539
fear, or anxiety. We're just taught like, oh,

01:26:12.600 --> 01:26:15.479
he's just working hard. Or, oh, he's grouchy.

01:26:15.479 --> 01:26:19.220
You hear grouchy and stubborn and dominant thrown

01:26:19.220 --> 01:26:21.800
around in the horse world the way that we used

01:26:21.800 --> 01:26:24.800
to hear it all the time in the dog world before

01:26:24.800 --> 01:26:27.000
there was a huge change to positive reinforcement.

01:26:28.859 --> 01:26:31.600
It's so interesting in that cultural way. People

01:26:31.600 --> 01:26:34.760
just, they don't see it because they're not taught

01:26:34.760 --> 01:26:39.579
to culturally. You know, it's just so interesting

01:26:39.579 --> 01:26:42.840
in the, at least thankfully, it's growing in

01:26:42.840 --> 01:26:44.880
the horse world. People are paying more attention.

01:26:45.100 --> 01:26:48.220
And even publicly and in the media, I think people

01:26:48.220 --> 01:26:50.819
are starting to pay attention thanks to some

01:26:50.819 --> 01:26:52.539
of the stuff that was happening in the Olympics.

01:26:52.560 --> 01:26:58.310
But it's... It's changing, but it's a cultural

01:26:58.310 --> 01:27:01.270
challenge because whereas specialized people

01:27:01.270 --> 01:27:03.369
like us, we would see those things, but there's

01:27:03.369 --> 01:27:05.670
still lots of other voices around still saying

01:27:05.670 --> 01:27:10.890
the same old things. Yeah. I think it still happens

01:27:10.890 --> 01:27:16.130
in dogs too, you know, where people don't think

01:27:16.130 --> 01:27:20.590
of that as like a possible thing. So that's good.

01:27:20.649 --> 01:27:24.689
People think about that. It plays a role. It's

01:27:24.689 --> 01:27:31.210
a factor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jen, this was so,

01:27:31.210 --> 01:27:35.470
so good. Thank you so much for doing this. Yay,

01:27:35.489 --> 01:27:40.289
this was really fun. And I'm super excited to

01:27:40.289 --> 01:27:44.350
follow Brina's journey because I've seen her.

01:27:44.430 --> 01:27:48.920
Why is she sleeping on a bed? That's a really

01:27:48.920 --> 01:27:51.479
good question. How did that start? Yeah, she

01:27:51.479 --> 01:27:55.159
has a big, right now it's a queen size, but she

01:27:55.159 --> 01:27:56.880
did have a king. It just got dirty and I had

01:27:56.880 --> 01:28:00.100
to start over. But she has a big queen foam size

01:28:00.100 --> 01:28:02.520
mattress that I got for free off of Facebook

01:28:02.520 --> 01:28:09.119
Marketplace. And she was, she, I had thought

01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:12.210
about this with Roger when he. at one point of

01:28:12.210 --> 01:28:15.210
wanting to really like give him a softer place

01:28:15.210 --> 01:28:17.409
to lay down. Cause as a senior horse, you know,

01:28:17.430 --> 01:28:19.449
he lays down and curls up to sleep and he would

01:28:19.449 --> 01:28:22.510
get sores on his hocks because the skin there

01:28:22.510 --> 01:28:25.750
is really thin and you can put like eight to

01:28:25.750 --> 01:28:28.489
10 inches of shavings in their bed to get them

01:28:28.489 --> 01:28:30.369
to lay down, but it wasn't always supportive

01:28:30.369 --> 01:28:35.029
enough. And so I had to put boots on his hocks

01:28:35.029 --> 01:28:39.779
to protect him when he was laying down. And With

01:28:39.779 --> 01:28:42.000
with Brina, I was kind of wondering the same

01:28:42.000 --> 01:28:46.420
thing. Like, I wonder if if I can make her more

01:28:46.420 --> 01:28:48.779
comfortable because she had some hock sores when

01:28:48.779 --> 01:28:52.300
I first bought her. And so, you know, I was giving

01:28:52.300 --> 01:28:57.340
her lots of shavings and I I stumbled upon this

01:28:57.340 --> 01:29:00.819
this website called Pasture Puffs. And it's a

01:29:00.819 --> 01:29:04.789
place that makes literally. dog beds for horses.

01:29:04.949 --> 01:29:07.750
They're like, they're really fancy and they do

01:29:07.750 --> 01:29:10.930
like waterproof covers and all of those sorts

01:29:10.930 --> 01:29:13.670
of things. And it actually, instead of it just

01:29:13.670 --> 01:29:16.489
being a nice thing, they were putting it as a

01:29:16.489 --> 01:29:19.609
solution for people who have allergies and can't

01:29:19.609 --> 01:29:22.409
do tons of shavings or hay as bedding for their

01:29:22.409 --> 01:29:25.649
horses and, you know, less cleanup and all that

01:29:25.649 --> 01:29:27.729
sort of stuff. But the more I thought about it,

01:29:27.770 --> 01:29:30.649
the more I was like, we don't expect our dogs.

01:29:31.510 --> 01:29:33.970
to sleep the same place that they go to the bathroom.

01:29:34.069 --> 01:29:35.989
And in horses, we do that. We're like, here's

01:29:35.989 --> 01:29:38.050
the shavings. This is where you go to the bathroom.

01:29:38.149 --> 01:29:39.810
This is also where you sleep. And I thought,

01:29:39.829 --> 01:29:41.829
that's disgusting. Like, why would we do this?

01:29:42.250 --> 01:29:44.630
It's just such a cultural thing that they do.

01:29:44.810 --> 01:29:47.649
So I got her a mattress pad, just like a little

01:29:47.649 --> 01:29:50.479
three inch one to see what would happen. I threw

01:29:50.479 --> 01:29:52.819
it down. I put a couple of treats on it. That's

01:29:52.819 --> 01:29:55.920
all I did. And literally I have cameras in her

01:29:55.920 --> 01:29:59.359
stall. I checked her camera that very first night

01:29:59.359 --> 01:30:02.039
and she had curled up and slept on it. She immediately

01:30:02.039 --> 01:30:05.739
said, this is cozy. This is great. I love this.

01:30:05.779 --> 01:30:08.060
It's not also my toilet, right? I just put it

01:30:08.060 --> 01:30:10.239
on like you would with a dog. I put it next to

01:30:10.239 --> 01:30:13.079
her food on the far end of her stall. So one's

01:30:13.079 --> 01:30:15.899
a potty area. One's a sleeping eating area. She

01:30:15.899 --> 01:30:18.699
immediately took to it and slept on it. And I

01:30:18.699 --> 01:30:22.739
literally cried. We had a couple of tech issues

01:30:22.739 --> 01:30:27.880
with this episode. So at the end, people just

01:30:27.880 --> 01:30:33.020
kind of dropped out. So Lori and I want to thank

01:30:33.020 --> 01:30:36.920
Jen so, so, so much for taking time out of our

01:30:36.920 --> 01:30:40.920
schedule and giving us such a fun, amazing insight

01:30:40.920 --> 01:30:45.310
into. not just training dogs, but training horses.

01:30:46.090 --> 01:30:49.689
I know Lori and I really enjoyed it and we hope

01:30:49.689 --> 01:30:53.050
you did too. And as always, we thank all of you

01:30:53.050 --> 01:30:54.789
for listening. Bye -bye.