Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. Today, Lori and I are going to talk
about variable reinforcement. So that's just
a fancy word to say being unpredictable with
when you give your cookies or your toy. Humans
are super predictable. And dogs are desperately
looking for information, right? Like they have
no idea what we're doing or why. Like we have
this end picture. This is what we want the behavior
to look like, or this is what we want it all
to look like when we go in the ring and the dog's
just operating in the vacuum, right? Like it's
just sitting there and it's like, okay, cookies
or a toy are on the table. How do I get it? Right?
So when we teach something, we usually go, the
dog does one thing. We mark whether we click
or use a word, and then we give the dog a treat
or a cookie. And then we. Theoretically, as the
dog gets more advanced, we give fewer cookies.
I say theoretically because it doesn't always
happen. At some point, when we give the cookies,
it needs to become, A, we have to give less cookies
first and foremost. That's like a huge thing,
or toys. And B, it has to be very unpredictable.
So I tell my students it has to be unpredictable
and tool -y. One, the dog should not know when
it's going to get a cookie. So it's very common,
like in obedience. I think it's in a lot of things.
The dog does an exercise, the dog does the finish,
and then the dog gets a cookie. So what happens?
The dog expects a cookie there. If you don't
give the dog a cookie there, the dog is confused.
I get so frustrated when people say. they're
only working for the cookies or they're lazy
or they don't want to do it unless we pay them
first of all when's the last time you went to
work and said you know what don't pay me i just
feel like doing it right doubt it right secondly
if all if you get paid every week or every other
week and suddenly your pay isn't there do you
just go a big deal i'll get it another day or
do you go whoa whoa whoa whoa what happened Why
did I not get my money? You start calling people,
you start complaining, you start tracking it
down. Where's my money? Because you've created
an expectation. You do X amount of work, you
get paid, right? So we create an expectation.
And I also think personally that how often we
reinforce, it becomes part of the picture, right?
Like the dog is like, oh. this is the picture
we train and every 30 seconds or every five seconds
or every how often i get reinforced and it's
now if you change that suddenly go in the ring
and get nothing again the picture looks very
different because instead of like some work broken
by a reinforcement event then a little more work
broken by a reinforcement event all of a sudden
it's just work, work, work, work, work. Well,
that looks completely different. Yeah. And that,
when you say that, like the dogs see it in pictures,
that's just to me, like they are so good at patterning
all that stuff. Like they literally, I swear,
like I would say, say this to my students, like
they almost become like they have like a clock
on them because we, and that's what we do. Like
we do X. x behavior we reinforce we do y behavior
we reinforce and that constant rate and continuous
pattern develops really quickly in the dogs and
then like you said that expectation happens and
then if all of a sudden you just go to no payment
then that's where the dogs get confused so this
is why like this is to me the biggest one of
the biggest pieces that's missing in a lot of
people's training that that mindfulness of starting
that variable reinforcement rate because we I
feel like our emotional state gets involved big
time and we want the dogs to be happy and we
want the dogs to be right. So what are we doing?
We're constantly paying the dogs. Yeah, like
the minute. So first of all, which is I don't
want to go too far down that rabbit hole because
it's a whole nother multiple episodes. But like
the second the dog starts to struggle, I'm not
talking about all out fail like. just struggle
like the dog is unsure like i just had a student
recently um i was trying to get her to shape
her dog right so clearly i could tell i could
tell literally within seconds that she doesn't
she says oh yeah i shaped the dog i could tell
within seconds she truly doesn't shape the dog
because as soon as the dog got no information
so it would do a few behaviors which were not
the ones we wanted And then it would just stand
there and do nothing. Like literally, it would
just do nothing because it was waiting for her
to help the dog. Right. And because she's like,
oh, God, I got to help the dog so I could give
the dog a cookie. So the dog isn't struggling.
And I'm like, first of all, you know, struggle.
There's a scale. I don't think that was a real
struggle. But the dog, we're not comfortable
with the dog having a child. So the dog stands
there, does nothing. Let me do something. Dog
looks worried. Let me jump in and give you a
cookie. Dog looks unsure. Rather than take a
second, go, huh, why? Okay, what can I do to
help this dog grab the cookie or the toy? right?
Take the dog somewhere challenging, dog's distracted,
get a cookie or toy out. Like that's what we
do. And it becomes kind of like a crutch. And
then my favorite is giving cookies for nothing.
Yeah. Why did you just give that cookie? I don't
know. Well, or half the time they're like, oh,
I did. So for sure, a big thing to do is take
the food off your body, right? Because that's
going to make it more challenging for you to
just give these cookies or toys that you're not
even aware that you're doing. Like there has
to be a reason why. And yes, when I have a young
dog and I'm teaching a behavior, I'm giving a
lot of cookies. There's a reason for that. I'm
teaching it and I'm shaping it. And every time
the approximation gets closer, I give a cookie.
But at some point, like my dogs jump into heel
position. There is no thought behind that. It
is a habit. It's automatic. It's like driving
a car. I do not ever give my dogs cookies for
jumping into heel position. Like once they know
how to do it and they're doing it consistently,
they never get a cookie for that. Yeah. And that
I. think is the key thing that people aren't
quite clear about because especially in the teaching
phases you know we get the puppies and we are
starting to teach them little behavior shaping
things and the rate and reinforcement is going
to be higher because we wanted we want to reinforce
every little step every little piece that we're
shaping and teaching and then we also want to
put value on all those behaviors right but once
like i just talked to my students this weekend
about it. Even in my puppies, once I see that
little piece of behavior is totally fluent, little,
I'm talking, my puppies start spinning on their
own. They start offering it. I don't even have
to say it anymore. They're like, it's just become
self -reinforcing. That little piece is now fluent.
Even in my puppies, I'm mindfully saying, I'm
not going to reinforce that. Like the rate now.
is going to decrease. And I'm going to mindfully
start even putting that behavior on a variable
reinforcement schedule. Right. So that I'm starting
to introduce that to the dog. And that's, it's
important. It's like when I watch someone give
their dog a ton of cookies, like I'm always like,
God, because I know already, even when I have
a seven week old puppy, I know that one day this
dog is going to have to go in the ring on a given
day. and perform for like nine minutes, give
or take, and do an enormous number of behaviors
in an enormously long, very complex chain with,
you know, distractions, pressure, and so on with
no reinforcement at all. So that is in my mind
from day one. And so you should constantly be
asking yourself, does my dog need this cookie
or can I get rid of it? Like, can I get rid of
this cookie? Like maybe sometimes my dog will
need some cookies for certain behaviors to kind
of refresh it or to keep it sharp. But certain
behaviors, there are a lot of behaviors my dogs
do that like never need a cookie again or very
rarely need cookies again. Right. And I, yeah,
go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was just going to
jump in because I think that's, that is always,
and it. It never was when I first started out.
Like I didn't even know about any of that stuff.
So of course, like when I had Mary, like I was
a fucking PEZ dispenser. Like I didn't know better.
So this is something I think that's just a lot
of people just aren't aware of. Or they're just
not being mindful. But it is, you like, you have
to say, what is my end goal? My end goal is that
my dog needs to be able to go work for duration
without that tangible reinforcer on me in a hard,
hard environment, which is going to be the trial,
the ring. And also you can layer that on. Like,
what are your goals? Well, I'd like to do tournaments
or I'd like to do multi -day shows. Like that's
even harder. You're coming out of the ring and
then X amount of time goes by. You got to go
back in the ring and that can be over a course
of two, three days. Right. So that is what you
have to always be keeping in your mind. Like
just from the get go, like we said with the puppies
or a young dog that you're starting out, pay
attention to where those behaviors. are starting
to be you don't need to reinforce them every
every rep you know and i think too and this is
a huge misconception right like when things get
hard or to keep dogs in the game or to maintain
effort in people's minds they need to pay a lot
but actually the opposite is true so when i have
someone asking the dog for tricks and giving
a cookie for every single trick right the dog
doesn't have to work that hard so two things
happen one if you reduce that rate of reinforcement
the dog gets anxious right because it's like
ah what's happening what's happening and it gets
like stressed out so that's one thing but the
other thing is the dog doesn't have to work as
hard because it's getting paid every second like
Why is it going to put in any effort? There's
no reason for it to try hard or to push. There's
no reason for it. It's not, is the dog lazy or
not? My dog can be the most motivated dog genetically
on the planet. If it's getting fed every second,
why is it going to put effort in? So then when
I say to that person, ask the dog for three or
four or five tricks in a row before giving a
cookie, right? what happens is by behavior three
four the dog starts putting more effort in because
it starts going hey what the heck what to do
to get a cookie here people all right how about
this how about that right come on and then it
does and it starts putting in more and more energy
and effort and you actually get more engagement
so people are inadvertently trying to achieve
those things. And they think by subconsciously,
I think a lot of times by giving more cookies,
they're heading in that direction and they're
actually doing the opposite. Right. They're creating
like a helpless dog that can't do anything because
every second we're doing it for them. Right.
Right. You know, and that, you know, that. Like
I'm just like sitting there, like it's literally
like the dog. I don't know. I just have this
weird like vision in my head. Like the dog is
just like hanging out like by poolside and you're
just like, you know, you're just delivering the
drink poolside every five seconds to the dog.
Yeah. Why is the dog going to get up early and
hustle? Right. Exactly. Exactly. When it's like,
hello, where's my, and they will start to say
that, right? Because that you have created an
expectation. Yeah. So if you then go to every
other behavior by after the first behavior, your
dog's going to go, Hey, what happened? What is
happening lady? And then Because the dog doesn't
immediately just do the second behavior or it
maybe does, maybe it gets stuck or maybe it just
starts yelling at you. Or maybe it, you know,
gets frustrated and you're like, you say spin
and the dogs like sit down and then you're like,
well, you sat me down. So here's a cookie, but
you didn't do what I asked. Right. They panic
and then they give the dog what they wanted.
another cookie. So you've created this vicious
cycle that you get kind of stuck in. And then
when you try and get the dog ready for the ring,
nevermind, go in the ring, it all comes completely
unglued. And then people say things like, well,
my dogs, that cookie stuff doesn't work, or they
only work for the cookies or my dog's lazy. If
there's no cookie, my dog won't do it. No, you
haven't taught your dog how to be able to do
it. for less reinforcement right and then some
then what like you said what happens is they
say well the cookie thing's not working or the
dog's only working for food now so i'm gonna
get rid of all the food like literally people
do that they're like i'm not feeding anything
anymore no cookies until like The whole entire
training session's done. Like you can't do that
either. You know, the food, the food or the reinforcer
is always on the table. Like for my dogs, like
I'm never going to do like a deprivation thing.
It's never going to be like never there. Like
they know it's there. They know it's on the table
or they know it's in my pockets or they know
it's laying over on the floor, but it's up to
us to start to create that. path to the reinforcer
right so that can look like in the very beginning
very quick the high rate of reinforcer and then
you want to start to develop the path being sometimes
you get a cookie here not always the length of
time that you work some when are you going to
get that cookie so that's that variable part
because i think people get really stuck the big
thing i see is you know Go and take a class.
You're new to this and everybody's got their
bait bags on. So the cookies are flying right
on every little thing. Cookie, cookie, cookie.
And then it's never. mindfully talked about or
taught on how to start to that variable reinforcement
rate so then by the time people are looking to
put their dogs in the ring that's where the big
problem lies and then they're stuck and they
don't understand why their dogs look like they
want to die That's the big missing piece. So
I think the first thing I have my students do,
which helps tremendously, just, it's like, I'm
not even asking you to variably reinforce. I'm
just saying, take the food and put it on the
table. Yep. Just put it on a table. Which is
great because then it, like, I mean, the big
thing I see is as soon as the dog starts to look
uncertain. The hands go in the pockets. Like
I have students who want to live there. And I'm
like, don't you're not even allowed to wear anything
with pockets anymore. Like your food cannot even
be on you because of that. Yeah. And if the food
is not on you by default, you're not going to
subconsciously just grab a cookie because it's
not there. Exactly. That's number one. Number
two, humans are a little bit lazy. So now if
you have to go all the way over there and get
a cookie, you're going to be thinking about.
why you're getting the cookie. The second thing
I made them do is put a pad next to your cookies
with a pen and write down why you gave that cookie,
right? So I'm not saying don't give any cookies.
I'm just saying there should be a reason why,
right? Like my dog usually goes slow for the
broad jump. It went really fast over the broad
jump. Great reason to give a cookie, right? So
go give that cookie. And I'm not saying initially,
like, you know, Just by default, you're going
to be given your dog less cookies. So now you're
automatically reducing how much you're reinforcing.
Now you're writing down why. So you need to,
because people are not consciously thinking of
why they are giving a cookie. There should be
a reason for it. There's a reason why. I give
every reinforcement I give. And I'm always saying,
do I need to give that here? Right. So, so I
think that's always like a really good start.
Then the other little kind of cheat trick I do
is if my dog is like relatively fully trained,
for example, and now I just want to like be unpredictable
with where I give a cookie, then again, cookie
shouldn't be on you because you're just a creature
of habit. You're going to do it. But I can tell.
If you train your dog in front of me, I can tell
you exactly where you give cookies. Because if
you heal and you do a halt, your dog's going
to look at you and it's clear as day with their
face going to say, cookie now, right? And you
go, right. And you give the dog a cookie. So
you don't want to get, so if I do something with
my dog. And my dog looks at me and goes, cookie
now, right? I will not give them a cookie. And
I'll make a mental note. My bad. Clearly, I've
been feeding here enough for my dog to expect
it. Now, if I give a cookie in places like the
middle of an about turn, middle of a right turn,
middle of a slow pace, and my dog looks surprised.
perfect it means i don't usually reinforce there
my dog's like whoa i just got a cookie holy cow
i didn't know that was even on the table right
that surprise that's what you want because if
you surprise your dog routinely your dog's going
to start giving you more effort more engagement
right because it's like holy cow i have no idea
when a cookie's coming it could be coming like
at any time So like, I'm going to keep trying
harder and harder and harder. Cause like, surely
now is it coming now? How about now? Now, now
is it coming? Like, which is different than I
expect it now. Cause you always give it to me
here. Right. Right. And then when you don't give
it there in the ring, the dog is, and rightly
so. Disappointed. Very disappointed. Very disappointed.
And even more importantly. confused yeah right
fusion leads to lack of confidence and then that's
going to spill forward into the work and it's
just going to get worse and worse as the dog's
not getting any cookies or toy right right and
that's the thing you know with that constant
Those consistent spots you're reinforcing where
you can see the dog is kind of demanding or expecting
that reinforcer to come. A big one I see is a
great example is, you know, the dog is called
front on a recall. And like within a second of
sitting there, the dog just doesn't auto finish
with that look of expectation of this is where
I get my cookie. This is where I get my cookie.
That's a big one. Like you said, there's that
expectancy on the dog. And then what happens
is you can see it clear as day where all that
patterning has happened with the constant reinforcement
in certain places. Because then when the cookie
or reinforcer is not presented, you literally
can see the dog's entire expression change. There's
just... that like total letdown emotional state
happens and like you said it will it'll spill
into the rest of the stuff because now the dog
is confused and worried and so on and so forth
for sure yeah so you have to so i i look at it
in two ways one is in training i don't want to
be predictable right now you can literally get
an app and it can just give you a tone at a variable
time it'll go beep and then you can randomly
give cookies if you have a hard time. Because
you do have to actually pay attention. You do.
Like you do have to say to yourself, because
it has to be variable, meaning not, I don't mean
that every time now you give your dog a cookie
at 30 seconds, it means sometimes you give a
cookie at one second, sometimes at 45, sometimes
at 20, sometimes at 60. Like it truly means it
is completely unpredictable. There is no pattern.
We don't know when it's coming. So there's that
within a session. And then there's also session
two sessions. So yes, I do have sessions where
my dogs will get more cookies in that session.
So if I'm working on perfecting my fronts, my
dogs get a lot of cookies for that. Or if I'm
working on like pieces, keeping them really sharp,
a lot of detail work, I'll tend to give more
cookies. But then the next day, I'm not going
to do the same thing. The next day, I'm going
to do something different. going to get less
cookies in that session and then I have some
sessions where I work on chaining which means
I do a long piece and then my dog gets a jackpot
and in that training session my dog might only
get Three times, if I do three chaining sessions
in that training session, my dog's only getting
three reward events. Yes, they're big events,
like they're jackpots, but there's only three
of them in that session. Right, after all the
chains, yeah. Yeah, so session, so even throughout
the week. There are some training sessions where
you won't get a lot of reinforcement and there
are some. So even there, it's unpredictable.
Yeah. And that's the mindfulness of, you know,
make that's the mapping out and being paying
attention to what you're doing. That goes along,
too, with your training sessions week by week,
because that's the thing like you don't want
to have. Every time you train, you're working
on stuff that the dogs are just getting cookies
right, left and center for every freaking rep
because you're working on that. You have to make
sure you're putting those training sessions in
where you're working on the variable reinforcement,
which is putting in some mindful duration pieces
where, you know, the dog might do three recalls
and maybe on the last one, the dog gets. reinforced
you know so that's where you have to make sure
that you're really paying attention because if
you're like for the past three weeks my dog's
been getting every session getting rapid fire
rate of reinforcement you're not putting it into
your training like you have to make sure you're
putting that in for sure yeah and I start doing
so like one of the simplest ways to do it early
on is just with tricks right yeah yeah like i'll
start doing this with a puppy very young like
yeah first i teach each trick so it's getting
a cookie or even when i'm breaking the chicken
to pieces multiple cookies per check but as soon
as my dog understands the tricks really well
now i ask for two tricks then give a cookie and
then i ask for three tricks and then give a cookie
and then i'll ask for four tricks and then give
a cookie and now My dogs will do five, six, seven
tricks and they don't even expect a cookie. They
don't even want a cookie. They don't even care
because one, I've changed the expectation and
two, and this is really important, the behaviors
become inherently self -reinforcing, right? Right.
And you're developing that path to the reinforcer
where the dog wants to start to work harder.
to gain reinforcer. Like you had said, like,
oh, is it coming now? Let me do this. Let me
work hard because it's going to come. Eventually,
I know it's going to come. That's the thing.
You'd want to teach the dog. It will come. Like
I said, I never, it's never deprivation. It's
always on the table at some point. I'm always
going to pay the dog at some point. And that's
what I want my dog to start to learn. And I think
the other thing people have to really change
their mindset about is like that if the dog struggles
a little bit or works hard, like that's a negative.
Like, you know, I've written so many blogs about
this. Like when I do something that's challenging
for me and I doesn't have to be like running
a marathon. i mean like my washer wasn't working
right my washing machine i don't know anything
about appliances i'm not good at i don't consider
myself good at fixing things whatever but i go
online i google it i'm like okay like i take
out you know the screwdriver i like i'm like
i have no idea what i'm doing and i fix it I
feel so freaking good about that because it was
hard because it's not something that I'm comfortable
with. Nobody helped me. I figured it out on my
own. And I'll be like, I fixed my washer. I fixed
my washer. I didn't have to call anybody. I did
it all by myself. I saved money on the repair
guy. And I'm like, well. Dogs are the same way.
When my dogs figure something out or do something
hard, they don't sit there and go, oh, that sucked.
I hated that. No, if it's done properly, my dogs
are so proud of themselves. Feels good for them
to problem solve and figure things out. They're
like, I did it. Look at me. They stick their
chest out. Zaina barks, of course, because, you
know, that's how she rolls. But like they're
just they're happy. So this whole mindset of
like, oh, no. Oh, the dog's not short. Throw
it a cookie. Break it down. Help. I'm not saying
make your dog fail. Failure and struggle are
two different things. Totally. But a little bit
of failure is normal in learning. I fail all
the time when I learn and struggle is healthy
and struggle builds. confidence and resilience.
So when my dogs are like, you know, maybe I start
lengthening and healing. So now I go a little
further, my dog looks a little unsure, like,
oh, I'm not sure. And I with my body convey confidence,
like, nope, you're good. Let's do a little more.
And we go a little further. And the dog's like,
I don't know, is this right? and then i go yes
i see a very different dog right then as soon
as my dog struggles i go okay here's a cookie
or let me help you it's not the same they don't
look the same exactly and you want that you're
taking that away from the dog like you're taking
away the dog's opportunity to push through and
to have that feeling like oh I just did that.
Look at me. Right, right, right. And the ring
is hard. So you want to develop. They're going
to struggle. It's going to be hard. And that's
what you want to build, too, in their training,
just like you were talking about, like when it
gets hard in the ring and we can't help them.
that's where we want that we want to develop
that push we want the dogs to push through that
when it gets hard and that that's how we can
do that in training just like you were talking
about yeah so another thing you can people should
think of is like, it's this weird thing, right?
They think of tricks as tricks and tricks are
fun and tricks are happy and everybody loves
tricks. And then they think of competition behaviors
are serious. Well, if you just treat them each
piece like little tricks and train it like little
tricks, then in essence, all your dog is doing
is putting a series of tricks together. And if
you make those individual pieces fun and self
-reinforced, reinforcing then you can use that
to help your dog initially especially like push
through to get you know a little bit further
before you have to give that reinforcement right
or you could throw a trick in so like I teach
my dogs to bounce in healing so if I'm healing
and my dog's like oh god I didn't get a cookie
yet am I right I'm not sure I don't know what
to do and I don't want to give you a cookie yet
I can say bounce. My dog goes, oh, I can do that.
And my dog's like, oh, I love to bounce. I'm
really happy. That lets me go a little bit further.
Now I can reinforce. So it lets me, it gives
me a tool to help the dog go a little further
before I give the reinforcement. And then the
dog learns like. Just because I didn't get it
yet doesn't mean it's not coming. It's just not
coming yet. It will come at some point, right?
And the more unpredictable you make it, the more
it's the gambling effect, right? It's the social
media scrolling effect. It's the like, the reason
we keep scrolling is because maybe, just maybe,
we're going to find that one thing after we scroll
through 80 things that we find interesting. And
then that's good enough to keep us scrolling.
And we're like, then we see something that kind
of interesting, but now, yeah, it's not as interesting
as what I wanted. And that's enough to keep us
scrolling, keep scrolling. So we also want to
do throw different things in there that are what
they call when they talk about like gambling
near misses, right? It's when you see Apple.
apple and you're like oh my god one more apple
and i win the jackpot and yeah and you're like
damn it but you are so close yeah boom you're
like i'm in it now i'm gonna keep going you're
hooked so you can do things like praise your
dog wow buddy that was super i love that that's
really nice all right let's do a little more
dog might initially go but i didn't get a cookie
it's all right buddy let's keep going right after
a while your dog learns that sometimes it just
gets praised or sometimes i might go that was
super buddy twist spin bounce wave okay and that's
all we're doing that's your quote -unquote reinforcement
event as we're doing that and now we're going
to keep going so you can put some other things
in there that become like that are still giving
the dog positive feedback but they become like
those near misses those two apples right like
oh i almost got a cookie but not quite and no
it doesn't make the dog give up it does the opposite
it makes the dog go oh like okay let me keep
trying or let me try harder right and then eventually
i'll get the quote unquote jackpot, which is
the reinforcement, whether it's cookies or a
toy. Right. So I think that's what people need
to think about. I'm also, I just started this.
So we have a word. Well, I have a marker. Yes.
When I say yes, it means that's correct. And
you're getting a cookie. So that's a contract.
I can't suddenly break that contract because
I'm lying. And now yes is going to lose its power.
And now I'm not being honest with my dog. Good
means that's correct. Keep going. You'll get
a cookie like eventually. So that word means
something else. I'm creating a word now that
I'm calling my jackpot word. That means you might
get a cookie. You might get a toy. You might
get a game. You might get praise like you're
going to get that. So it's basically saying what
you just did is correct and you're going to get
something. But I don't know what. So now I have
a word that I could use it in the ring as well
because I'm not lying. If I say to the dog, wow,
and then I just praise the dog, that's fair because
I do that sometimes in training. Right. But again,
you have to use the word mindfully because you
have to kind of say to yourself, well, the last
three times I said I praised, then I did some
tricks. Well, OK, the fourth time I'll give a
cookie and then maybe next time I'll do some
trick. Like it has to be very unpredictable.
Right. So that means now I think what you could
potentially do, especially when you're first
doing this, is just write it down, like write
down the sequence you're going to use. But it's
a nice little way to kind of practice consciously
being unpredictable in just like one small area.
Right. And I think that's key because there's
a lot of people who become aware of the fact
that at this point. They have been just giving
too many cookies all the time and haven't developed
any sort of variable reinforcement schedule with
their dog. And then they get stuck on how to
change that. So that's a really good point. And
I even. Well, and I do this myself sometimes.
I just tell students to like, just write down,
even just write it all out. Like some, just a
simple little sequence of things, whether it's
just tricks or just simple obedience behaviors,
whatever it is. And then you can literally write
down, like plan the whole thing out. I'm going
to do this. And then I'm going to do this. And
on a third one, I'm going to reinforce. Like,
so sometimes that helps just to have it written
out a little plan you can follow so that you
can start really mindfully paying. It's really
just paying attention to where and how you're
reinforcing, but, and it can be done. Like people
get really kind of dismayed by the fact that
they think like they've ruined their dog. Now
the dog's only working for that constant rate
of reinforcement, but you can change it, but
it has to be done. It has to be done, you know,
really mindfully. You know, you can't just all
of a sudden rip food away because you have to
teach the dog. They don't know, you know, they
don't know any other, any other way. And the
other thing is do it in the middle. Like people
are so stuck on like doing something at the end
of the series or the end of a behavior or the
end of whatever. Like just, if you just simply
do it in the middle, like if you're healing,
don't feed the sick. Like I almost never feed
my horse. Right. Right. I feed at weird, unpredictable
spots where I'm like, I'm in the middle of a
fast. I'm like, I haven't fed here in a while.
And I just spit a cookie like in the middle of
the fast, just here's a cookie. Like, and the
dog's like, Whoa, I wasn't expecting that. Or
on a transition, like do your exercise, start
moving to a new spot. And in the middle of doing
that feed there, right. Or feed. the middle of
an exercise or some part of the exercise where
you almost never feed, right? And like I said,
if your dog, just test it out, because if your
dog looks surprised, then clear as day, you are
not feeding there, right? Because your dog's
like, whoa, I didn't even see that coming, right?
Sometimes they don't even see the cookie. And
I'm like, oh, wow. Certainly don't feed there,
right? Just think about being unpredictable and
tell yourself, I am never feeding the end. And
just make a habit out of feeding or reinforcing
in other spots, in weird, unpredictable spots.
And same as, like, I was listening to a podcast
about this. It was talking about, you know, when
the scent wore. okay you can't feed in the middle
there but you don't have to feed after every
single search let the dog do two and then feed
let the dog do three and then feed let the dog
do one and then feed and then therein you have
to is where you just need to become like unpredictable
and you could literally like you could go online
and look it up or get an app there's apps that'll
do it for you like and write it down okay i'm
gonna feed after the fifth rep after the ninth
after the second after and then this way you
don't have to go oh i don't remember all right
i'll just give them a cookie because that's what
you do right we're gonna go oh i'm not sure okay
and like i said when the dog is unsure don't
panic just okay I created I inadvertently created
this so now I'm teaching the dog the rules have
changed is my dog going to be confused of course
it yeah my dog will be confused okay what am
I going to do when my dog is confused well I'm
certainly not going to like start getting all
worried and panicky and fumbling around I'm going
to stand up tall I'm going to look confident
like i know what's going on i'm going to look
at my dog and i'll i can even if you feel like
you need to you can say i'm sorry buddy i did
this to you we're just gonna go a little bit
further so come on have a little faith in me
let's do a little bit more and even if the next
thing the dog does is a little bit slow or a
little bit hesitant or a little bit sucky whatever,
who cares? Just get the dog to do it, right?
Do a little bit more and then say yes. And what
in essence, in that moment, you're teaching your
dog is when you're not sure, keep going and then
the reinforcement is going to come. That is what
you are teaching the dog in that moment. And
that is a super valuable thing to teach. So if
you just expect that this is going to happen.
You have a plan. This is what I'm going to do.
I'm going to confidently help my dog through
this. And then when my dog gets past that point,
I'm going to reinforce it. Then you're not going
to get stuck in spiral. Your dog's panicking.
You're panicking. Your dog's like, oh God, mom
or dad are panicking. Now I'm panicking even
more. Yeah, which is what people do. They start
to have a freak out over it. When their dog starts
to look sucky and sometimes it'll even go the
other way. Then they start getting mad at the
dog. Like you can't, the dog doesn't understand
it. So this is just teaching opportunities, right?
So that's when we just. help them you can help
them verbally it's okay doing a great job let's
go do it again because the minute you go down
that rabbit hole like then it's just gonna spiral
out of control for sure yeah and then they're
gonna go down that rabbit hole right and it's
expectation like I expect my dog to go huh what
why didn't I get a cookie so I expect that so
when my dog looks at me like that I'm not like
but i go and then i'm like okay let's keep going
good job buddy you went a little further and
again so my dog could spiral in one or two ways
it could get um a little bit what we would call
sucky like slow or you know unsure it doesn't
look like we want don't worry about it initially
just Let them do it that way. And then reinforce
them. That goes away once they understand and
they get more confident. Or the dog can spiral
and go up like Zaina and start screaming at me.
Hey, you know, I'm sure she's cursing up a storm.
Then I just put my hand on her and I just say
to her, like, calm down. You're fine. It's all
good. We're going to go a little further. So
stop screaming at me. Right. So I'll calm her
down. And then I'm like, let's keep going. We
go a little further. Oh, look, now you're getting
your reinforcer. And then she's like, oh, OK.
You know, and like I said, yeah, like anything
new, they're not going to get it in one session
or two sessions. Right. There's going to be a
period where you're learning. yeah the new rules
they're learning the new schedule right but then
once they understand you will see that the dog
actually works harder right because it's like
understands that it's coming i just have to keep
pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing and
then eventually I get that reinforcer. Right.
And just be careful. Like when you start this
out, like if it's something that like, you're
like, oh gosh, this is the light bulb moment.
This is definitely what I need to start putting
into my training. And your dog has, has not had
any of that done. Like you can't just go from,
okay, now you're going to work for 30 minutes
straight and then I'm going to give you reinforcers.
So you need to do this in incrementally over
time, building that, that understanding up for
your dog so that you can eventually the dog.
dog can go longer and longer and longer they
start to push harder and harder and harder so
just be careful when when you do start that that
you're not going all of a sudden all right well
today we're starting the variable reinforcement
so you're going to do 15 minutes of whatever
without a cookie because that's how we're going
to start teaching it so you can't do that because
the dogs really they don't understand and then
you're going to have a dog that they're definitely
going to panic on you yeah Yeah. You have to
do it mindfully. And then people also say, and
we're not saying, cause we're not yet really
talking about getting rid of reinforcement. We're
just saying there be unpredictable. It has to
be unpredictable, but in that being unpredictable,
there will be some spaces that are bigger or
longer. So yeah, we can't go like huge, like
right out of the gate because the dog won't be
able to do it. So again, if you write it down
and you're like, okay, typically I give. a cookie
every five seconds or every one behavior, right?
Okay. So two, three, maybe four, like one rep
of four is realistic or maybe one rep of three
is realistic. So let me figure out now, let me
draw my little chart and let me figure out how
I'm going to mix it up so that my dog's not going
from one cookie, one behavior to five times.
They're only getting a cookie for every four
behaviors. And one time they're getting a cookie
for one behavior, right? So again, yeah, it's
planning it out and writing it out so that you're
doing it in a mindful way. And again, it doesn't
mean that all my training sessions are where
my dogs are doing 20 behaviors or more for a
cookie. Like I literally will have some sessions
where they will get a ton of cookies that session.
Because of what I'm working on, but that's not
every session. All my sessions are variable as
well. So, you know, cause people go, well, mom,
it's not fun. My dog's never going to get hardly.
No, there's no, you know. it's always about the
middle right yeah it's always about balance balancing
everything out session to session and balancing
it out within a session and starting to do that
as early in your training as you possibly can
ideally starting that with your puppy yeah you
know going very quickly to not giving a cookie
for every single behavior or every little behavior
certain behaviors become like habits right so
like that's the other thing i want to reward
my dogs for effort right so If I take, if I take
some cookies out and I get one of my dogs and
I bring them into the sunroom and they're like,
oh, we're training. And my dog jumps into heel
position. I'm not feeding that because that required
zero effort. It's like a habit. They do it like
automatically. Like there's no, why am I even
feeding that? Like, I don't need to. Right. So.
Again, it's like, well, if my dog starts, so
if they, then I say, okay, you need to do way
more than that to get like a cookie, right? And
then they have to work even harder to get something
that's worth a little more like their toy. And
they really have to work hard to get like a jackpot,
like their meal, for example, right? So you're
always want to, you have to just be mindful about.
why are you giving these cookies or this toy
what am i trying to achieve what am i trying
to accomplish and am i headed towards my end
goal which is that this dog must do x amount
of behaviors in the ring before it comes out
of the ring and can get a reinforcement right
and i think people just that's something they
don't mindfully think about and then you have
to remember that we are just like our dogs we
are creatures of habit so i find this happens
people start with food off them they start with
variable reinforcement they do it for like a
week and then they're like oh for this session
i kept the cookies on me and they'll have like
a good reason for it and all of a sudden Cookies
are back on the body and they're reinforcing
the same old way. Yeah, totally. Like, what happened?
Why is it on you again? Because it's a habit.
And I find when I have a puppy and cookies are
on me a lot. And then I'm like, all right, cookies
off me. I'll find myself reaching in my pocket.
Yeah. Even have the food on me. Yeah. And then
that always is a good reminder for me. I'm always
like, wow, like, boy, did that happen quickly?
Yeah, because you don't even realize you do it.
Yeah. And I'm like, because with my adult dogs,
food's not on me. Right. So I don't ever even
go in my pockets. Right. Because my body's like
conditioned. It's not there. Yeah. Yeah. But
when I have a young dog and I feed a lot, a lot,
and then I go to put the food off me, I'm like.
Holy Hannah. Yeah. Fall into that trap quickly.
And our minds want us to be efficient. Yes. So
therefore our minds say food in my pocket is
the most efficient thing. Yeah. Right. And so
that's where we go. And it's not even a conscious
decision many times. So you have to make this
conscious decision and just say to yourself,
food will not be on me anymore, which is perfectly
fine anyway, because dogs got to learn to work
with food off you. Yeah, absolutely. And then
you just have to go over to where it is. And
just that simple act alone will make you more
thoughtful. you know about your reinforcement
schedule and um how often yeah i'm being unpredictable
yeah yeah it's how often and it's being predictable
right and like i said the sooner you get your
dog used to that the sooner you know the easier
it's gonna be for your dog and the easier it's
going to be for your dog later when you have
to you know do super long chains for no reinforcement
at all right that's not gonna be like what yeah
yeah and that's the end goal you know that's
really i mean for what we do with our dogs that's
what we're that's what we are preparing them
to be able to do so yeah don't be a pez dispenser
except do you know what this is how old i am
like a lot of people don't even know what a pez
dispenser is what i've said that and people are
like oh what and i'm like oh god yeah go look
it up Google it. But yeah, basically it's just,
you're just rapid fire rapid. You're just a vehicle.
You're just a thing that gives cookies constantly.
yeah and keep in mind that i think this whole
concept of like making the behaviors self -reinforcing
like if you're giving cookies constantly then
the behavior is not becoming self -reinforcing
right the dog has to do the behavior and then
start enjoying do to do the behavior and do it
a whole bunch of times without like This is what
I find so fascinating. Like, for example, my
dogs bounce a lot, right? Because I teach it
and, you know, I make it valuable to them. They
bounce constantly and I never reinforce it anymore.
Right. And it doesn't go away. Yeah. Like they
don't stop bouncing. Right. I can't remember.
Literally, it's been years since I fed Zesty
or Zaina's bounce, like inhale position, and
they bounce constantly. constantly in training
and in the ring. So like it hasn't gotten weaker.
If anything, it's gotten stronger. Like it's
become inherently self -reinforcing. So if you
can do that with a bounce, why can't you do that
with other behaviors? Why are there not other
competition behaviors that the dog does that
the dog can learn to think is like, oh, this
is just a super fun trick. And if your dog can
do that, then that piece within the chain is
becoming inherently self -reinforcing. The dog
doesn't even need a cookie there. Right. Exactly.
So I think people just need to really think about
this and like anything with training, like, you
know, training should be thoughtful. Training
requires us to think. And so this is something
that we really need to think about and we need
to think about what we're doing. when you know
within a training session over the course of
time like don't do this for a week and then stick
the cookies back in your pockets right exactly
i think it's definitely like this is gonna be
I'm hoping this is super helpful because I find
as an instructor, this is a big piece that people
get stuck on or they're not sure. Well, most
of them actually know. Like I'll be like, well,
why do you think this is going on? And usually
most people will go, well, I think it's because
I use cookies all the time for everything. I
think, you know, people kind of know that they
created that, but then they don't know how to
get out of it. That is exactly, they don't know
how to fix it or how to, you know, teach the
dog. And I think it's from feeding a lot, then
you have to switch to a variable reinforcement
schedule. Right. And the dog has to be on that
consistently. Right. after that which would be
another episode you know we have to teach the
dog how to do long chains of behavior for no
reinforcement and to understand that that means
they're right because dogs just think they're
wrong when they don't get a cookie but the first
step is you have to switch to variable and you
have to stay on a variable schedule and i think
yeah i think people panic when their dogs struggle
and their first thing is get a cookie out so
don't do that just convey confidence get your
dog to Keep going. Don't worry about it. If it's
a little bit sucky, don't, you know, go, oh,
just get your dog to go a little bit further.
Then mark and be like, look, you did it. Good
job. And, you know, and when I first do this,
if my dog looks confused and they keep going
and then I give them the cookie, I make it a
little bit more valuable, right? I won't just
go click cookie. I'll go click. Wow, buddy. See,
that was so good. you did it. So I'll add a little
extra because you worked a little harder. So
I'm going to make it a little bit more of an
event initially. Right. Until the dog, now my
dogs are just like, yeah, whatever we get it.
But yeah, that's important. That first step,
that variable reinforcement and you have to plan
it out. You have got to plan it out. Yep. Until
that becomes a habit. Right. And you just have
to constantly hold yourself accountable and be
like, Oh God, did I do that thing again? Was
I predictable again? Gosh, darn it. Okay. Back
to, you know, and whatever that looks like, whether
it's writing it out, whether it's using an app,
I think they literally have apps that will give
a tone. It'll go beep at like variable times.
Wow. Yeah. And then you can go cookie now. Right.
And if it's. In the middle of something where
you're like, I never give a cookie here. Good.
Yeah, who cares? Yeah. Perfect. That's what you
should be doing. So there are things that can
help you if you need that help. Yeah, that's
super important. Younger, you start that, better
it'll be for your dog. But if your dog's older
and you've never done it before, it's not like,
oh, well, now you're sunk. Right. You can still
do it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. This was good.
Hopefully it helps you guys. It's a big one.
Yeah. All right. So thanks everybody. Thanks
for listening and happy training. Thank you.
Bye. Bye.