Alright, so check it out. You know how we talk
about all the weird stuff they sneak into our
food, our air, or even our clothes? Yeah. It
turns out most shirts are basically made of plastic.
You're sweating in chemicals, man. That's why
I switched to Hypronatural. It's wild. They make
their fabric from jade stone and crab shells.
Yeah, you heard me right. Jade and crab shells.
The jade keeps you naturally cool, like literally
drops your skin temp down a few degrees. And
the crab shell fibers, they fight odor and help
your skin stay fresh all day long. So you can
wear it longer, wash it less. and not smell like
a dirty old gym tap. They use a fancy caught
mother of pearl buttons and zero junk. No polyester,
no chemical dyes, and none of that synthetic
garbage. It's clean, it's sustainable, and honestly,
it's just cool gear. You can wear it anywhere.
The gym, the range, whatever. And it looks legit.
Go to hypernatural .com and use my code is zero
signal at checkout and you'll get yourself 20
% off. And get yourself the cleanest, most comfortable
shirt you've ever worn. That's hypernatural.
Nature engineered for comfort. You're tuned into
Zero Signal, a show about what they won't say
and what you're probably already thinking. No
fluff, no filters, no bullshit. Let's crack it
open. Welcome back to Zero Signal with your hosts
David and Jay Green. So Dave, you ever notice
how every conspiracy has that one moment, that
one bizarre detail where you go, okay, that's
too crazy to be real. And then you realize it's
actually true and has happened? Yeah, you're
half asleep at 2 a .m., scrolling some sketchy
forum, reading about mind control, secret drug
experiments, CIA safe houses with mirrors and
prostitutes, and you're thinking, all right,
man, this is fan fiction. Then you look at the
declassified files and yeah, that actually did
happen. Welcome to MKUltra. The program's so
wild, the official version already sounds like
a bad dream. And tonight we're pulling on a thread
that starts with Cold War paranoia and runs straight
through LSD experiments, hypnosis sessions. sensory
deprivation tanks, midnight brothels, wired with
cameras, and a government chemist with a clearance
who lived like a low -key Bond villain. And we're
talking about Nick Gottlieb, the man who asked,
what if we could erase mines, rewrite it, or
bend it? And the CIA said, cool, here's a big
check. And the best part, most of the documents
explaining what actually did happen, the dirty
details were ordered destroyed in 1973. So what
we know is actually the tip of the iceberg. Which
means tonight, we're not just talking history,
we're talking puzzles with Mr. pieces, scattered
testimonies, and experiments so unethical, they
make a science fiction look soft. And we'll also
get into the proven stuff. Montreal, de -patterning,
the safe houses, the drugging of their own employees.
But then we're also walking right up to the border,
maybe over the border, into the conspiratorial
spillover. The assassins, the cults, the counterculture,
the Manson rumors. And did they actually succeed
with these experiments? Because the real question
isn't did MKUltra happen. It's how far did it
go, and what was ever made out of it, and what
happened to those and what was in them. So settle
in, turn down the lights, grab your popcorn,
and maybe don't trust your memory for the next
hour. This is Zero Signal, and tonight, we're
opening the files they tried to erase. MKUltra
was a covert CIA behavioral modification program
that was established back in 1953. And it mainly
ran through the CIA technical services staff.
This involved illegal human experimentation,
the use of drugs, especially LSD. For whatever
reason, it was heavy in psychedelics. It also
involved hypnosis, sensory deprivation, and electric
shock. And to explain to the audience, if you
don't know what electric shock is, is where they
put these pads on your head and send high voltage
currents to your brain. These methods were used
on unwitting subjects to see if human behavior
could be controlled or manipulated for intelligence
or worth their purposes. Many records were deliberately
destroyed in 1973 when the program was actually
terminated. And this destruction was on orders
from the CIA director, Richard Helms. So what
we largely know today is from surviving financial
and administrative records. And in 1963, the
CIA inspector general published a report. the
1975 church committee investigations and the
1977 Senate MKUltra hearings. So as you can see,
this was heavily scrutinized by our elected government
during its roughly 20 year tenure as a secret
program. The official scope from the Senate and
CIA records included that MKUltra roughly contained
149 sub projects with roughly 80 institutions
involved. Most of these institutions were universities,
hospitals, prisons, and pharma companies. Many
didn't even know the CIA was funding their work.
Experiments included LSD and other hallucinogens,
barbiturates, stimulants, and drug cocktails,
hypnosis and hypno conditioning, sensory deprivation
and isolation, sleep deprivation in sleep rooms,
electroconvulsive treatments paired with drugs,
and recorded messages, which many refer to as
psychic driving. The core aim of this program
was to figure out if there was a way to break
resistance, control memory, create amnesia, or
shape behavior for interrogation. espionage and
covert operations. There's also a claim that
it was used to instill split personalities in
the people. So one personality could carry this
secret information, this code, all the knowledge
that a person would have to be a covert agents.
When they got to the other side, the person receiving
the information could use a trigger ward to bring
this second personality up to the consciousness.
They could have a conversation, exchange information,
exchange secrets, and they could use another
ward to trigger back their primary personality.
And in retrospect, this primary personality had
no awareness of the second. personality within
their psyche. And I think the interesting thing
is MK Ultra didn't just appear out of nowhere.
It was born in the Cold War when American intelligence
was terrified that the Soviets and Chinese had
discovered this brainwashing. Prisoners of war
were coming back with broken minds, strange confessions,
and stories that look like science fiction. The
question in Washington became simple and quite
ugly. If the enemy can do this, we can do it
better. So the CIA built a program to weaponize
psychology. The ideal was to find ways to control
a person at the deepest level, not just to get
them to talk, but to make them different, more
compliant, more suggestible, or just in the darkest
theories programmable. The people running this
weren't horror writers. They were scientists,
doctors, bureaucrats, working with government
money and national security cover. Conspiracy
researchers look at this origin story and see
a moral switch flipping. Once you decide that
national security justifies anything, voluntary
consent, basic ethics, and even the ideal of
a stable identity become optional. MK Ultra in
this view is what happens when a powerful state
decides that human mind is just another battlefield
to dominate. Yeah, I think it's an important
thing to piggyback off your point. So a lot of
this stuff started after World War II and during
the early part of the Cold War. and officials
were terrified that the Soviets had these show
trials and confessions from spies or even in
certain instances soldiers where the unwilling
participant essentially spouted whatever the
party doctrine was at the time, confessing to
things that they didn't do, confessing to things
that they had willingly told the Soviets or I
guess in some cases the North Koreans because
we had a war back in the 50s. in Korea. So a
lot of these prisoners of war endured a lot of
these tortures, these psychedelic experiments,
the sleep deprivation. So when these guys came
back home, they seemed to really tout the Soviet
Communist Party line and really believe what
they had been programmed to believe. And it took
a lot of them a long time to get deprogrammed.
So CI Director at the time, Alan Dulles, explicitly
claimed that Soviets and Chinese were way far
ahead in brain warfare. and argued that the U
.S. needed to catch up or suppress them. So it's
also interesting that Nazi and Imperial Japanese
have a pretty significant legacy with some of
the development, as we all know, Operation Paperclip.
But it's interesting to see that the Nazis and
Imperial Japanese had a pretty big hand in some
of these techniques and some of this research.
So post -war, the U .S. secretly recruited Nazi
and access scientists via Operation Paperclip,
including some involved in unethical human experimentation.
We all know a lot of the horror stories that
the Japanese and Nazis put people through during
their reign of terror back in the forties. So
the U S was interested in the broader climate
of mining enemy atrocities for data. And this
kind of helped normalize the idea that ethics
could be bent for national security. So this
kind of points back to direct Nazi to MK ultra
pipelines that are often claimed in the conspiracies.
Documented links exist where the conceptual level,
but the direct evidence is a little bit fuzzy,
but it doesn't take a big logical leap to see
their fingerprints all over this inception. I
always ask myself like, maybe this existed back
in the day and then ethics stepped in and put
it into it. But I think we see a continuation
of events. If you look at Guantanamo Bay and
the humiliation of prisoners and sleep deprivation
and waterboarding, a lot of times I think they're
just, they're doing another version of MKUltra
and it never truly stopped. And even if we have
some ethics here in the United States, Perhaps
other countries don't and they're continuing
on this way with different versions of the truth
serum But and we'll probably talk a little bit
more about that as we get into the show But I
think one of the most disturbing parts of MK
ultra is where it ultimately happened We're not
talking about secret bunkers in the mountains
We're talking about normal -looking places with
very respectable signs on the door universities
research hospitals mental health clinics prisons
places where people go for help or education
or rehabilitation money flows into these institutions
through the front foundations and fake grants
with friendly names. I think on paper, it was
behavioral science, human ecology, stress research,
and underneath it could be something very different.
Heavy drug noses, sleep deprivation, electroshock,
and forced hypnosis. Patients who believe they
were getting this cutting edge treatment instead
of becoming these test subjects, sometimes without
clear consent, sometimes with no real ideal what
they actually signed up for. From a a conspiracy
standpoint, you know, this is kind of the master
stroke. You don't need a secret island when you
can turn to the existing system into your lab,
a doctor in a white coat, a professor with a
grant, a therapist with a clipboard. These become
the new face of the black project. And once that's
normalizes, it raises a scary question. How many
studies and trials over the decades have quietly
doubled as data collection for people you never
actually see the author's list? And it's getting
ingrained. And I always ask myself, and maybe
Maybe you have an answer for this one, but like,
how in the hell did the government get so many
highly credentialed people to sign up for this
experimentation? Yeah, to go back to your point,
I think as long as humans have been alive, we've
been trying to convince and control one another.
I think MK Ultras is the official rendition of
man trying to control man, trying to control
the belief systems, trying to control the narrative,
trying to brainwash. And we can go into a bunch
of examples of how this is reflected in modern
day society. I think with everything in the government,
everything is very compartmentalized. So you
give out grants to scientists, psychologists,
one guy might be studying a drug, one guy might
be studying certain forms of psychotherapy. In
the aggregate, the government's kind of pulling
all these tools together. And I think at a certain
stage, the government sees what works, what drugs
work, what psychotherapy works. And then at the
top, you may have a handful of guys taking all
these tools and putting them together and then
using them to manipulate control and brainwash
it. at the final stages, but I think in the initial
stages, some of these scientists are just investigating
whatever they're interested in at the universities
or in the hospitals and not really knowing what
the ultimate outcome is. So for I think 90 %
of them, it's just one piece of the puzzle. The
guys at the top look at the data and they see
that project A may have worked, project B maybe
not. So as time goes on, they're taking the cream
of the crop, these methods, learning them themselves,
and then implementing them as an aggregate to
use on these individuals that they're trying
to control. Yeah, it's twisted because it's not,
Hey, we're going to shoot this gas into the air
at our enemy and let's see what it does to them.
It's like literally people in the CIA are drugging
each other unbeknownst to them and slipping stuff
into their drinks to see what works and what
doesn't. To me, it's just wild. Me and you go
to a bar, you're my brother, but I'm going to
test this chemical on you and see how it goes
and see what you do. Like it's for shits and
giggles, I guess. I don't really know, but it
seems very twisted. And when we're talking about
drugs here, MKUltra is almost inseparable from
LSD. The CIA became obsessed with this new psychedelic,
wondering if it could be a truth serum, a chaos
weapon, or this like mind control tool. They
bought it in bulk and started slipping into people's
lives. Prisoners, soldiers, psychiatric patients,
and random civilians in bars and brothels that
were actually government safe houses wired with
microphones and cameras so they could watch their
behavior. Now here's where the conspiracy twist
kind of kicks in. years later, LSD explodes into
the 1960s counterculture. It goes from the secret
experiment to music, art, protest and entire
lifestyles that revolve around it. The same substance
that was being tested in these hidden clinics
suddenly became the sacrament of a generation.
Was that just organic cultural spread or did
some of those tabs, those gurus and those scenes
have a quiet push from intelligence operations
that had already mapped the drug effects? When
theory says LSD was intentionally allowed to
spill out into mass experimentation. They flood
the use with acid and you study how they behave.
Maybe you fragment movements that might otherwise
become politically organized and dangerous. And
maybe you get a generation that's easier to manage
and influence because it's tripping instead of
marching. I think in this view, the sixties weren't
just this spontaneous uprising. They were also
in part this MKUltra field test. Yeah. And I
think we'll explore some of those rabbit holes
as we get a little bit further into the episode,
but I wanted to digress to your point. you do
it on your own people and not do it on the enemy.
I think the reason we do it within these institutions
and we do it on our own people is because it's
in a somewhat controlled environment. So you
can observe, you can record data. It'd be very
difficult just to send something or someone over
into let's just say hypothetically Russia or
China or whatever other country in the world.
Spray this chemical, dose the water supply, but
you're not really in a position to record anything.
You're not in a position to observe. So you're
letting it go and then you're out via drone or
whatever delivery method you may have. The only
thing you really can see is the aftermath, but
there are so many unaccounted. variables, you're
not really sure how the chain reaction unfolded.
But when you do it on your own people, in your
own institutions, in your own, within your own
borders, you're able to observe, you're able
to make the logical conclusions that you want
to see and so on. So I think that's why they
do it on their own people, because it's a great
batch of guinea pigs that are within a confined
space and confined institute that you can be
readily available to draw these conclusions without.
potentially getting caught or not having the
ability to see what's happening. Do you think
the government actually allowed it like this
LSD to get out there so that they could expand
their pool? And perhaps was there something going
on in the country that the government was trying
to lead with a heavier hand to control the populace?
And maybe this is one way they thought they could
do it. Yeah, I think so. We hear stories all
the time about the government experimenting on
their own people, especially people in the military.
The Tuskegee experiments where they gave people
They're just giving people horrible diseases,
horrible drugs, and they do it with the, I guess,
the intention of using it for warfare. And I'm
under the impression now that we're under constant
psychological warfare, be it through social media,
be it through television, be it through just
about anything that's out there anymore. And
LSD can make your brain hyperpliable. It makes
you super suggestible. It causes you to trip.
You can have good hallucinations. You can have
bad hallucinations. nations, people, even the
tech bros in Silicon Valley are experimenting
with psilocybin and other type of hallucinogenics.
And a lot of them microdose, but they microdose
because they claim that it helps open and create
new neural pathways so their brain can be more
plastic and make it easier to learn stuff. I
think that translates, at least in the government's
point of view, into making your brain more suggestible.
You're able to implant these ideas. And I find
it interesting that they introduced LSD to society.
society, made it mainstream, made it cool. Like
we're seeing now with marijuana, marijuana is
pretty mainstream. People use it all the time.
And now you're, like I said, with the advent
of these tech bros and even Joe Rogan talks about
it, talking about taking psychedelics, you hear
it everywhere, DMT, all these weird things that
really mess with your mind. So they're trying
to mainline it into society. And I think that
opens doors in your head for them to implant
suggestions and steer social opinion, steer influence.
I think when you boil it down, brainwash the
populace. We see it all the time in these cults
that they use the same type of strategies. It's,
again, I think you're getting back to psychology
101. It's repetition, and you need to induce
a drug that will open doors and make you feel
good in some instances and make you feel terrified
in others. It's just a way to screw with your
head. Yeah, that's a good point. I really think
we should do an episode on what direction is
America going in? Because I feel like post -1940s,
this country is on a down... word to directory
when it comes to moral values, a connected full
home that doesn't have divorce. And just the
moral principle that we stand on is really tread
in the wrong direction. So it might be interesting
to do an episode of where it's heading. If you
want a case study that feels like pure horror,
you can look at the Montreal connection. In one
psychiatric hospital, patients check in for everyday
issues, anxiety, depression, postpartum struggles.
They were told that they were getting advanced
treatment and what some of them got instead was
a nightmare. Massive electroshocks, heavy drugs,
sensory deprivation. and recorded messages played
over and over while they were sedated or half
-conscious. The apparent goal was to wipe the
mind back to a childlike state and then rebuild
it through repetition. I think when we think
about that, not treating symptoms, but trying
to erase and rewrite a person, some patients
came out with shattered memories, scrambled identities,
and missing years of their lives gone. They weren't
told that they were in a secret program. They
were told they were being helped by these people.
This isn't just one unethical experiment. It's
a crucial proof concept that modern Western hospital
can be turned into a personality reconstructed
factory. Once you know that happened, even once
being a respectable front, you start asking how
many other places tried similar things under
different names with better security and no paper
trail left behind. I can't get past that. Meaning
that if you're experiencing anxiety and you go
to a hospital and they're like, just give me
some medication, help me out. And then going
from having anxiety to like being tortured and
going through these horrible experiences by people
that we trust, by people that take Hippocratic
oaths that says they're going to take care of
you and look out for your welfare is insanity
to me. It's just, it's so hardcore and evil.
No, man, I think you make a good point there.
Sometimes I wonder, and I probably need to do
a little bit more research on this, but think
about the, just the pervasive use of SSRI use
in modern society. Like all these drugs are relatively
new, going back 20, 30 years. And you hear horror
stories all the time about people getting on
these drugs and might make them feel better for
a little bit. But when they decide it's time
to come off, if they've been on them long enough,
they have horrible withdrawals. And I'm wondering
if MKUltra didn't contribute to some of these,
these psychological drugs that people really
struggle with today. So I think in some sense,
in some cases they really help. And in other
cases, I think they're overprescribed and I wonder
why. I think a lot of some of, I think they're
great for people to have really bad out of control
psychological issues, but I know people can just
be going that. going through a really bad time
in their life and they hand these drugs out like
candy. I don't think it takes a whole lot of
effort to get them or you have to go in there
and say, I feel sad. I feel anxious. And within
five minutes you'll have a prescription. And
it seems like it takes a lot of dialing in to
see what prescription works. So you might go
on one. You may not feel any better. Heck, you
might end up feeling worse. And then they switch
you to another one. So you're introducing a different
chemical into your system every two to three
months until you find something that may work
for you. But just looking at the data. You can
compare some of these SSRIs and other psychotropic
type drugs and compare them to natural things
like herbs, vitamins, lifestyle changes, diet
changes, and they're not nearly as effective.
And I know a lot of people tie these into like
these mass shootings, these school shootings.
I think there may be some correlation there,
but if you even look at the warning labels on
some of these medicines, it says they may want
you to commit off yourself and may want you to
do horrible. unspeakable acts of taking someone's
life. So they admit that these are some of the
side effects. And there's countless stories about
people going off these meds and losing all their
emotions, losing all their cares, losing all
their inhibitions. And it's just scary. But I
kind of want to cycle back a bit to what kind
of led, what were the, like the forefather programs,
the MKL truth. So there was a program back in
1950 called project blue bird. And it focused
on protecting us personnel from hustle. interrogation.
So this used like drugs, hypnosis, special interrogation
techniques to compel information. So just to
boil that all down, what they were trying to
do was give their soldiers or assets in the field,
CIA, et cetera, will have you and give them techniques
to resist the interrogation tactics of the enemy.
So that program only really lasted about a year.
So they say, and that evolved into project artichoke,
which was created in 1951. And so this was the
successor. Bluebird, it was more aggressive.
The experiments included on whether a person
can be made to commit certain acts against their
will. So now you're seeing some of the telegraphing
of what MKUltra really was set up to explore.
And again, you have the use of heavy drugs, hypnosis,
psychological pressure, and this would be put
on detainees and expendable subjects. So sometimes
I hear that word expendable. It's such a horrible
term, expendable. It's essentially saying that
your life doesn't matter, your mental health,
emotional health, spiritual health, are of no
consequence to us. And who defines who's expendable
and who's not? That's a scary one. And this ultimately
led to MKUltra, which is essentially artichoke
2 .0. It was larger, more institutionalized within
the prisons, hospitals, like you mentioned Montreal.
And it was heavily focused, like you said before,
on LSD and pharmaceuticals. Look at the timeline
of the inception of MKUltra. So in the early
40s, in early 50s, you have the setup. So 1947
to 1949. The CIA is founded. Covert ops and psychological
warfare divisions grew rapidly. In 1950, you
have Project Bluebird. In 51, Bluebird becomes
Artichoke and it focuses on special interrogation,
including drugs and hypnosis experiments. 1953
to 1963, this was MKUltra's quote unquote main
active period. You have conspiracy theorists
that now think the program has evolved to new
names. It's gotten deeper and more occult in
its processes involving. both the paranormal
and sort of supernatural. So not to digress too
much, but in April of 1953, CIA director Alan
Dulles approves MKUltra. It's ran by Sidney Gottlieb,
the head of the technical services staff. 1953
through 63, this again was the peak MKUltra activity.
Contracts were given to universities and hospitals.
LSD is given to mental patients, prisoners, drug
addicts, military personnel, and some ordinary
citizens. And this was often without consent.
I would presume that... 99 .9 was given without
consent. In 1963, you have the inspector general
report and a partial rollback of the program.
An internal CI inspector warns that MKUltra is
ethically and legally dangerous and poorly supervised.
Some projects are scaled back and rebranded.
The name MKUltra begins the phase out. In the
mid sixties and early seventies, you have follow
-up programs. This is the quiet phase. Certain
sub -projects roll into successor or parallel
programs. And we'll get a little bit into MKSearch.
Kate Naomi and others. But again, we'll save
that for a little bit later in the episode. MKUltra
remains mostly entirely unknown to the public.
And now this is when it starts to get a little
bit sketchy. So in 1973, you have the document
destruction. CI Director Richard Helms orders
most of MKUltra files destroyed. This is apparently
done to prevent future exposure. Some financial
records did survive and they survived mostly
due to being misfiled or stored elsewhere. And
in 1975 through 77, you have the exposure and
the Senate hearing. So in 75, the Rockefeller
commission and church committee began exposing
domestic CIA abuses, including MKUltra. In 1977,
you have the Senate subcommittee on health and
scientific research, and they hold public hearings
on the program. Survivors testify and Sydney
Gottlieb appears on subpoena. And the results
of this report is ongoing document releases,
mostly through the freedom of information act
and class action lawsuits where more documents
emerge. over the decades. In 2024, you have a
large collection of CIA mind control documents
that is published by the National Security Archive
and ProQuest. And in 2025, a newly published
material includes top secret depositions from
Sidney Gottlieb to the church community staff,
providing more detail on LSD experiments, assassination
-related research, and special interrogations.
Yeah, to talk about how twisted some of this
stuff is, when we talk about Project Monarch,
we are really talking about trauma -based mind
control. Eric shows up in a lot of survivor testimonies.
The claim is pretty simple, but absolutely brutal.
Certain groups used extreme trauma, ritual abuse,
staged deaths, sexual violence, and psychological
terror to deliberately fracture the mind into
separate compartments. Each compartment or alter
could then be programmed for different purposes.
In this model, trauma is a side effect. It's
like the main tool. They put a child through
enough horror and their mind protects itself
by splintering. Each fragment can then be shaped.
One altar for normal life and one for espionage
or one for seduction, one for violence. And trigger
words, symbols, hand signs, songs. Switch these
altars on and off. The front personality has
no ideal what the others are doing. To the outside
world, you're dealing with one person. Internally,
it's a whole cast running different scripts.
And Monarch is where MKUltra merges with cults,
elite circles, and generational abuse in our
narrative. The ideal is that once this kind of
programming works, becomes a long -term investment.
It creates controlled assets who can be placed
in entertainment, politics, and espionage, all
while looking like regular citizens. Now, whether
you believe the testimonies or not, Monarch represents
the logical extreme of MK Ultra's mindset. Not
just influencing behavior, but redesigning the
human soul through pain, which is just absolutely
horrifying. Like, how evil must you be to come
up with something like this? Obviously, trauma
does things to people. We've seen it many times.
when real trauma occurs, a death of a parent,
a death of a loved one, or abuse by a loved one
or whatever the case may be, it fractures the
mind. But to intentionally do this to somebody,
to take advantage of them, it's like we're putting
a bunch of child molesters in office. Let them
free and run experiments on people. So this stuff
though, maybe makes good topics for movies or
I think you said that Stranger Things is about
this. I've never seen that show. It's pretty
twisted stuff of what they're doing to folks
in order to gain control over them. A lot of
people, I remember watching a movie with Denzel
Washington a long time ago called The Manchurian
Candidate. It's one of the most famous MKL trick
conspiracy branches is the ideal of this Manchurian
candidate, a mind control assassin who doesn't
know they're actually an assassin. And it goes
like this. You take a person, you break them
down through trauma, drugs, and psychological
manipulation. Then you build artificial identities
and triggers. A phrase, a song, a symbol, something
innocuous becomes the key that unlocks a programmed
behavior. Pick up a gun, pull a trigger. and
then forget. Every time a strange, seemingly
senseless assassination or mass shooting happens,
people start hunting for MKUltra fingerprints.
Was this person in the military? Did they have
a history of psychiatric treatment? Did they
participate in any studies or programs? Are there
weird gaps in their story, contradictory memories,
flat effect, or robotic behavior? To most people,
those are signs of mental illness or stress,
but to someone with MKUltra in mind, those can
look like glitches or conditioning. This line
of thinking leads to to the chilling possibility
that some events we write off as random horror
might in theory be carefully designed demonstrations,
not just to eliminate a target, but to generate
fear, headlines, and public support for tighter
controls. You can manufacture an assassin, you
can manufacture a crisis. And if you can manufacture
a crisis, you can steer policy without ever firing
a visible shot. Perhaps you make somebody take
that shot for you. And I don't know if it works
or if it doesn't work, but it's some scary stuff.
I think you can get people to react with these
trigger words after this programming, all stemming
from Project Monarch to MKUltra to possibly the
thousands of other programs that are out there
that we don't know about. Though some people
say that the Israelis are still experimenting
in this space and how can they program assassins
to do their work? Some people connected to the
famous guy that just got murdered in front of
the public. Perhaps it was an MKUltra connection
to that that caused it to happen. I don't know
if I believe that, but it is. scary stuff. Yeah,
I think it goes back to what we talked about
earlier. It's used to split personality. And
I know there has been psychological studies of
people and some people claim to have up to 10
different personalities within their psyche.
And the one kind of interesting part about it
is that each personality can have its own set
of characteristics versus both physical and mental.
One personality may be allergic to nuts. The
other personality, when exposed to nuts, have
no no visible or physical reaction to them. And
a lot of these personalities are unaware of one
another. And the theory behind it is once you
expose somebody to trauma, and I know you agree
with me on this, if you're sleep deprived, you're
doped up with LSD, you're getting an electroshock,
you're not able to sleep for days on end because
they're keeping you awake with amphetamines.
I don't think it too far of a logical jump to
suggest that with this neural drive this psychic
driving that you can split someone's psyche and
program it to be someone completely different
than who you are. who God made you to be. And
not to go crazy deep into this, the theory is
that you can send somebody in their base personality
to some event. Somebody there can use a trigger
ward that has been deeply ingrained into their
subconscious and it can bring forth another quote
unquote personality to the surface. And this
personality may have a completely different set
of skills, a completely different kind of physical
chemical makeup, and it can do whatever the program
tells them to do, be it assassination. be it
delivering information, being the ability to
resist interrogation because this personality
doesn't know the information that the other one
does. So it gets pretty scary and these people
can use another trigger word to bring forth the
primary personality or a completely different
personality altogether to come to the surface.
I think you saw it with Sirhan when he did assassinate
RFK and there's been plenty of YouTube videos
and documented evidence that he says he doesn't
know what the heck happened. Like he is completely
unaware of it. People say that when he was there,
he seemed pretty normal. Then he did that horrible
act and somehow his base personality came back
up and he was like, I don't know what happened,
but obviously he pulled the trigger. You just
wonder, you ask yourself how many people have
been through these programs and you can research
the background and see what institutions they
went to, what psychiatrists, psychologists that
they've seen and their backgrounds are sketchy.
And I'm not blaming the person for being traumatized
and enduring some of this. psychological torture,
but you have to ask yourself, like, how many
people out there have this hidden trigger that
may manifest at any time? It's just something
to think about. I know it's a bit conspiratorial,
but I think there is evidence, at least in psychological
research, to suggest multiple personalities do
exist. Whether or not they're programmed by the
government is a topic that can be argued around,
but trauma can induce personality splits. Yeah,
for sure. Whether it's programming or demonic
possession, I think people can have these split
personalities disorders. And a lot of the times
people come up with stuff, they come up with
a problem so they can sell you the solution,
like in order to make you sick, in order to heal
you. Much more reason why even if the cure to
cancer existed, I'm not sure that they would
give it to you because they make so much more
money selling you the treatments for it. One
of the things I really find interesting about
MKUltra is the scale. Many people, when you think
of MKUltra, it sounds like a single dusty file
in the CIA cabinet, but in reality, it was an
umbrella of over at least 149 distinct sub -projects.
That's the numbers the CIA's own financial records
give us when they were discovered in 1977 and
handed to the Senate. These sub -projects were
scattered across more than 80 institutions, universities,
hospitals, prisons, and private companies. One
latter summary puts it at 80 -plus known institutions
and around 185 outside researchers involved.
Now, what that means in plain language is MKUltra
wasn't just guys in trench coats. was woven into
the respectable society. Money moved through
front groups and foundations with friendly names,
and then landed on desk of professors, psychiatrists,
and lab directors. Some knew the CIA was behind
it. Others just saw grant money to study human
ecology, stress, or new drugs. And the result
is that this entire system, academia, medicine,
corrections, became a disturbed experiment, often
without people inside realizing they were part
of this intelligence project. And as we talk
about just some of them, like the widely known
ones, whether it be Bluebird or Artichoke or
the Montreal Project or what have you. How many
don't we know about? And perhaps how many are
still going on? Because I think there is still
some version of this that is occurring inside
the United States. Even today, whether it's for
-profit institutions trying to get on board to
make your food terrible, to sell you dietary
supplements, to sell you the fix, or the government
wanting to control you, essentially institutionalize
you to vote them into office or... to do whatever.
I still think this exists to some day and yeah,
it's pretty crazy. Yeah. I want to go back to
a point you made earlier. You were saying like,
whether or not it's a split personality or someone
being demon possessed. I think it's very interesting
that they use heavy psychedelics on these people.
And I do think heavy psychedelic used to be psilocybin,
be LSD. I think the base mechanism is ultimately
very similar. And I do think it opens like a
spirit portal in you. And I think it makes you
susceptible to being possessed by evil entity.
And I think, you know, I think it's interesting
that they use that in conjunction with hypnosis
and with inducing trauma, the kind of lower the
person's will to let them give permission for
this entity to come in. And so I think it's a
good point you made. Sometimes I do wonder how
much of that is actually demonic possession where
the person just gives up the autonomy to their
body and there's an evil entity actually doing
these deeds. And this is not to absolve the person
of horrible deeds, but I wonder about that because
psychedelics can induce forms of psychosis. I
do think it's a spirit portal. There's been countless
stories of people having very similar interactions
with entities and DMT is a particularly interesting
one where people see the elf. and machines. And
it just seems a bit odd that everyone has the
same type of story about these beings that they
encounter on DMT. You would think everybody,
given their psychological makeup, their chemical
makeup, would have different experiences. It's
just odd that everyone has, when you boil it
all down, the same exact story and description
of these entities that they interact with on
a DMT trip. So I think that's a good point. I
think a split psyche can manifest different personality
types and traits. In order to have somebody do
something that horrific, I think it has a lot
to do with the destroying the chemical makeup
of one's brain, reducing their will and allowing
influences from the outside to override what
they otherwise would allow or do themselves.
I don't, I'm not super real wet on psychedelics
and the thing. Some of it I wonder is obviously
visualizations come along with it. And I wonder
if they can make you see something, then you
will believe it. Kind of like the project blue
beam callback. Like you can't believe everything
that you. see, but I wonder if they can influence
you through that design. I think in my circles,
one of the most famous things you hear about
is, you ever heard of somebody take in too much
Benadryl and everybody sees the same person and
they call them the hat man? Too much what? I'm
sorry. What did you say? Yeah. So have you ever
seen somebody like in my circles when they're
talking about Benadryl, everybody reports seeing
the same person and they call them the hat man.
And that's from falls into that DMT family. You
take so much, you take it to get high and everybody
sees the exact same figure when they do it. No,
I've heard of the hat man. And I didn't know
that he manifested during an intro trips. The
only thing I know about is the DMPLs. Yeah. So
it's weird that everybody sees the same figure.
Cause you would think if somebody's hallucinating,
it'd just be whatever they're thinking about.
Like whether they're taking about the beach or
whatever, like they would see different things.
But I do find it super interesting that they
see it that way. And perhaps there is some connections.
A lot of people, even like ayahuasca, like it's
connected to like these ritualistic experiences
and this counter -cultural world. So I wonder
if there is some fine line that opens yourself
up to demonic possession, to these different
things that you're going to see when you're doing
these drugs as well. And then you wonder like,
how could the government do that to us? And I
think here's the part that kind of cuts deep.
By the time NK Ultra started, the Numer Code
already existed. After the trials of the Nazi
doctors in the 1940s, the world had supposedly
agreed on a simple principle. You do not experiment
on humans. human beings without voluntary informed
consent. That code was widely known in medicine
and research by the 1950s, the exact moment the
CIA launched MKUltra and its cousins. They didn't
stumble over the line by accident, they stepped
over it on purpose. Senate summaries later noted
that MKUltra -type experiments were conducted
on unwitting and non -volunteer subjects, prisoners,
psychiatric patients, children in state schools,
sexual psychopaths in hospitals, people whose
consent was either impossible or deliberately
bypassed. In other words, while America was publicly
condemning the horrors of Nazi medical crimes,
part of its own intelligence apparatus were quietly
running a parallel playbook under nicer branding.
And for people like us, that's not just hypocrisy.
It's evidence of a deep structural belief that
ethics are optional when power wants answers.
Yeah, I think, so I ran across a project I didn't
know anything about. It's called MK Often, and
it's a less well -documented, often -described
secondary sources exploring black magic, occult
and paranormal phenomena alongside psychological
research. And with my belief in what psychedelics
are and what doors they open, I think it's a
natural progression that somebody observing.
the studies and the research would draw the conclusion
that, oh yeah, there seems to be somewhat of
a homogenous beam coming through this mental
door that we open with psychedelics. So I just
think for these people doing this research that
it would be a natural progression to start studying
black magic, occult and this paranormal stuff.
So I found that interesting. I didn't do a ton
of research into it. It's hard to find a lot
on it because it's not as well documented. And
a part of me thinks that it's still. probably,
if not in effect, underneath that title underneath
a different title that is probably classified
in or top secret. I kind of want to touch on
like the hypnosis aspect. Do you know much about
hypnosis? Not a whole lot, actually. I don't
know a whole lot about hypnosis. I don't even
know if I believe in it or not. What about you?
Yeah. So I know a fair amount about self -hypnosis.
Essentially what happens is somebody tries to
get you in a super relaxed state and there's
a progression to kind of get you to that point.
And then when you're in that relaxed state, the
theory is that you're mind is more susceptible
to suggestions and to behavioral changes. And
you hear all the stories about, I want to help
hypnosis session to help me stop smoking or drinking
or lose weight. But I think when you really boil
it down, that it is effective, probably less
than 10 % of the time. So there is a very large
portion of the population that you're immune
to hypnosis. I do think everybody is suggestible
to a degree. And I think you see it with social
media, TikTok, these kind of 30 second reel.
where somebody puts something up there and the
algorithm kind of takes control and over time
it can nudge you, but that process takes forever.
But hypnosis in and of itself, it can be a very
dramatic thing, but it's only really effective
for a small part of the populace. And I also
found it interesting. I was listening to someone
talk and they were talking about MKUltra with
the combination of trauma -inducing experiences,
the electric shock, the hypnosis, the drug use.
He claims, again, I wish I could remember his
name, but he claims that of all the people that
go into this program unwillingly or unknowingly
that it only really works on about 5 % of the
people. So you may have, let's just say you have
a hundred people go into the study or this program,
only five out of the hundred are actually able
to be programmed with a second personality or
programmed with a switch to make them do something
terrible, do something against their will. So
I think they did end up ending the program because
of its unethical means, but I think they also
ended it because they found A lot of people just
were not, they were not able to get to do with
what they wanted them to do. And I know like
when you, I don't know from experience, but I
know that when people are in LSD introduced trips,
they might act and behave a certain way that
is way outside of their norm, but that's temporary.
And, but they were looking for people that would
be permanently programmed. So I find it interesting.
You ever see like a hypnosis session where a
guy brings someone on the stage, he starts giving
his, he starts to try to induct them, give them
suggestions. and he'll walk across the stage
and touch certain people, pick up their hands.
And he immediately kicks them off the stage because
that person is not going to be hypnotized. So
just know who is suggestible and who isn't. It's
interesting to watch if you know what you're
looking for. But again, it's only a very small
percentage of the population who can actually
be effectively hypnotized. And I think when we
look at that, they're like modern -day hypnosis
and these scam artists, people that we see on
TV, that's just with hypnosis alone. Look at
this watch or look at this pendulum and count
to 10 and you'll be under my control. But I wonder
if that percentage goes up with drugs and isolation
and sensory deprivation and all of these torturous
techniques that they use on people. I wonder
if that five, 10 % goes up to 45 or 50%. Any
thoughts? I think in the moment it does. I think
at a certain point the human psyche tries to
protect itself. So if you're in a room and you're
being electrocuted, I think it's akin to torture.
There's tons of stories about sad to say even
Americans. is torturing people and mostly prisoners
of war. But at a certain point, you're just going
to tell them whatever they want to hear just
to get out of the situation. So I don't think
torture in the grand scheme of things is actually
a useful tool to get information. I can't imagine
if I'm tied up in a room, they're waterboarding
me, they're playing loud music. At a certain
point, I'm not being fed. I'm scared for my life.
I'm naked. At a certain point, I'll be like,
I'll tell you what everyone here do to stop.
And you start out of fear of the torture continuing.
You're just going to make an elaborate story
in your head, knowing dang well that it's not
true just to get them to back off. So I think
in the situation, yeah, is it true programming?
No, I think it's someone's survival mechanism
coming to the surface and just trying to get
out of the situation. I think when you get outside
that environment, you're going to be traumatized.
You're going to be scared. But if anything, I
think it probably makes you a little bit more
docile not to do anything crazy. not to get back
into that situation. So I think, I guess to summarize
what I'm trying to suggest, I think in this situation,
you'll do whatever you can to get out of it.
But once you leave that environment, you're not
going to continue with the programming with the
exception of a very small percentage. And I think
psychedelic use, you get to certain doses, it
starts to destroy your brain and you lose memories.
You might seem to come off as a psychotic quack
and you might have a propensity for violence
that you didn't have. But at a certain point,
I don't think your brain, I think you've destroyed
your frontal lobe. So whatever violence you're
committing is probably done out of your psychotic
break or your brain just being destroyed. And
there's really no rhyme or reason to it. I don't
think you'd become an effective tool because
like you're just a dumb fire missile versus a
guided missile. I think a lot of these people
just turn into dumb missiles and the chaos and
tragedy that they call are just random one -offs.
Yeah. When we talk about torture and people willing
to say anything, we saw that in my background,
right? Not that I tortured people, but in law
enforcement in general. role when they think
there was inhuman behavior used to solicit a
false confession. And a lot of our constitution
laws protect against that today and calling something
cruel or unusual because people have knowingly
confessed to murder or to rape or to whatever
after being in a room. Back in the day when investigators
were going to interrogate you, they would hold
you against your will so you'd be detained. They
would set you in a small room and they would
interview you for 12, 15 hours. Still some interviews.
go on for a very long time. And it starts to
call into question is, do people just want to
get out of this damn room because they've been
locked in this single uncomfortable room with
maybe like an uncomfortable temperature, no blanket,
no water, nothing to eat or drink. And they're
willing to say anything because prison is better
than being in this cell that you have me in right
now. So a lot of the training I did back in the
day was to try to prevent that, keep your interviews
within reason. Sometimes you had to wait, like
you're not going to interview folks if you just
had a murder that happened. they would sweep
the crime scene so I could use the evidence in
my interview to interrogate. So it might take
a couple hours where you set into a room, but
eventually I'll come in and we'll talk. But you
have to watch that clock to make sure it doesn't
get too cruel and unusual. I think the big outcome
with, especially with LSD, but other drugs that
they were using during this time was it was very
unpredictable of what the outcome was going to
look like. I think of the Frank Olsen story,
the scientist who fell from a window. In 1953,
Frank Olsen was this government... a biochemist
working on biological warfare. He wasn't some
drifter. He had a security clearance, a family,
a house, and a good salary. Then he went on a
work retreat in rural Maryland with CIA colleagues.
One night at dinner, without telling him, his
bosses slipped him LSD into his drink as part
of the MKUltra test on their own people. Over
the next nine days, Frank began to unravel. He
told his wife he'd made a terrible mistake. He
was agitated, confused, talking about quitting
his job. The superiors decided to take him to
New York. to see a doctor connected to the CIA.
Instead of getting better, he kept spiraling.
Then at about two in the morning in a Manhattan
hotel, Frank went out his 10th floor window and
hit the sidewalk. The official stories, he jumped.
Nervous breakdown may be fueled by the surprise
acid trip. But decades later, after MK Ultra
started to leak into public view, his family
pushed back. They had his body exhumed. A new
forensics exam found head and chest injuries
that looked more like a beating than a clean
fall. Some investigators called the evidence
of homicide. The government eventually admitted
he'd been dosed with LSD without consent and
paid his family a settlement, but never admitted
murder. So you're left with this, a loyal scientist,
drugged by his own side, dead on the sidewalk,
and a family that still believes he was silenced
because he knew too much about MKUltra and other
programs we're already doing. And we have countless
horror stories like this, which suggests that
if they gave him LSD and he did what they wanted,
they wouldn't worry about it. This is success.
But it was so unpredictable. And if we see as
LSD in our society today, that if the chance
of it being successful is one in 1 ,000 or one
in 100 ,000 or whatever the case may be, there'd
probably be different outcomes in play. But this
was so unpredictable. It was such a colossal
failure in a way. I didn't do a whole lot of
research into his case, but I wonder why they
just randomly dosed him with LSD. But I wonder
if somebody dosed him and then knocked him off,
like just pushed him or threw him over the ledge.
It's a weird story. I think it points back to
Operation Midnight Climax. they would use prostitutes
to be a honeypot. So these guys would come up
to prostitutes, proposition them, and then the
prostitutes would bring them back to a hotel
room that had a two -way mirror where the scientists
could observe. The girls would dose the Johns
with LSD and then the scientists behind the screen
would observe. what the guy experienced. So it
was, I don't think anyone was particularly targeted
in that whole operation. It was just random guys
who for whatever reason decided one day they
wanted to go out and solicit a girl. And I think
it was more of a research program is to see the
effects of LSD. Again, I don't know why they
would do it out in public when they were doing
it in controlled situations at universities and
hospitals. I find that one a bit bizarre unless
they were looking for candidates. Maybe they
had a list. list of attributes that when manifested
during an LSD trip, that they were essentially
looking to recruit a certain type of person.
It harkens back to what we talked about. Hypnosis,
a small percentage of the population is highly
suggestible. And maybe it's the same way when
you're on an acid trip. Maybe they were looking
for a way to recruit men cheering like candidates
because they displayed certain qualities during
the acid trip. That's the only thing I can draw
down to it. I just don't know why you would,
when you already have control environments in
play that you would just seemingly take completely
random individuals and experiment on. I wonder
if because they were getting attention. Oh, you
can't test at this facility anymore or doctors
or whoever stepped up and was like, yeah, we're
not going to be a part of this experimentation.
And I wonder if they were running out of options.
Like they had to give it to somebody. They wanted
to continue their investigation into this drug
or into this mind control technique. And that's
what they were left with. So they did it that
way. Yeah. But I know even today you can sign
up for drug trial. You don't really know what
you're getting yourself into. They pay you. Maybe
it wasn't that way back then. Who knows? I didn't
do enough research to deduce that. But I would
think if you wanted to study a drug, you would
just have some poor college kid or poor guy on
the street who just needs a quick buck and then
dose them. I don't even think you really have
to even tell them what you're giving them. You
just may have to state something on the research
saying we're just studying the psychological
effects of drug ABC. So in my mind, it was more
of a, it could be a completely wrong opinion.
And more of a way to see, to see what percentage
of the population manifested certain characteristics
while under the influence of a psychedelic. Yeah.
So my first thought is I feel like I'm on LSD
because I see two versions of you on my screen.
That's odd because my cameras are off. I know
it says J and then zero signal is the other one.
So there's three people in this call right now.
Is that the CIA listening to our show? How about
you tell us what happened? Give us the full rendition
right now by every hear of the Charles Manson
MK Ultra link. You actually wanted to go into
a story real quick and then we'll get into the
Manson connection, but it jogged my memory because
you were talking about people could sign up for
these studies and they would get a material benefit,
whether it be money or whatever. It reminds me
of the James Whitey Bulger story. Before he became
a notorious Boston mob boss, Bulger was this
young inmate in federal prison in the 1950s.
Guards told him there was a medical program looking
for volunteers, an experiment that, you know,
might help cure schizophrenia, maybe shave time
off his sentence. this if he signed up for this
program. What he walked into, according to his
later letters, wasn't treatment. It was a series
of brutal high dose LSD sessions, dozens of trips
over more than a year. He described feeling like
his head was changing shape, reality shedding
around him, terror that didn't end with the drug
war off. He wrote that he thought he was going
insane and that no one explained what was being
done to him or even why. Only later did Balger
learn he had been part of MKUltra -linked prison
experimentation. Test on inmates. to see how
far LSD could push a mind and whether it could
be used to control or break prisoners. He said
he felt like a lab rat, not a patient, and blamed
those sessions for lifelong anxiety and paranoia.
In a strange twist, years after his conviction,
one of the jurors who helped put him away publicly
said she regretted the verdict, not because he
was innocent of his crimes, but because she only
learned afterward what the government had done
to him in the name of research. We're talking
about a guy that was pretty horrible, and Whitey
Bulger is very famous. And he went through this
and he later became this famous mob boss. And
I wonder if that, through that experimentation
altered his reality and he became this like horrible
human being from it. Yeah, I think he actually
ended up being a fed too, wasn't he? Like he
was a rat. Like he would rat out other mob bosses
and form the government as to what other gangsters
and stuff were doing. Or am I making that up?
No, you're right. He eventually did become a
witness for the state, but most high profile
folks like him are in some way, shape or form.
form a witness for the state because they're
trying to eliminate competition through that
fact. And it always reminds me of the, one of
my favorite movies called The Departed. And the
entire story is at the end is this guy's an FBI
informant and he's been able to do whatever the
hell he wants because he's knocking off all of
his enemies. And that's very true in our reality
today. It wasn't Jack Nicholson's character kind
of based on Whitey Bulger. It was a little bit.
Yeah. I think it was. Yeah. I think he ended
up getting knocked off in prison or something,
didn't he? I don't remember how he ended. I don't
remember. I think he was super old when he was
in the federal prison. I think he was being wheel
-chaired to a medical section and I guess another
mobster had like locks, like those metal locks
you put on lockers. beat him to death with it.
To get back to Charles Manson, there was a pretty
recent wave of interest. A Netflix documentary
called Chaos explores whether Charles Manson
and his inner circle intersected with MKUltra.
The claims center on frequent contacts with doctors
and institutions connected to government drug
research. We all know he was heavily into LSD
and given his followers heavy acid trips. I think
there is enough circumstantial evidence to point
to the fact that he was part of these experiments.
I know he spent a lot of time in prison before
his ultimate life sentence. Do you remember the
actor Danny Trejo? He's like that Mexican guy.
I think he's Mexican. He's got like the tattoos
and kind of plays like an action hero, like villain
in a lot of movies. So I listened to an episode
of Tinfoil Hat and they had a recording of Danny
Trejo talking about an interaction he had with
Charles Manson in prison. And he said, Charles
Manson could hypnotize you to relive drug experiences,
like boil it down without getting into too much
detail. said that Charlie came to him and was
like, Hey, do you want to experience heroin high?
And Danny was like, yeah, why not? And he said
Charles Manson hypnotized them. And he felt like
he had just taken his first hit of heroin. The
interesting kind of part of it was like one of
the, one of the cell mates, Charles Manson tried
to hypnotize him to experience it and the guy
couldn't. And they asked him like, why aren't
you high? And Charles Manson asked the guy, have
you ever done heroin? The guy said, no, he said,
I can't hypnotize him because he has no mental
recollection or physical. a cool recollection
of what it's like to be on heroin. So I found
that to be a pretty interesting story. Yeah.
There's a lot of bad people that are wrapped
up into this program. And it almost makes me
go back to think of the demonic possession, because
another famous story is Ted Kaczynski, which
we all know is the Unabomber. But Theodore Kaczynski
was a teenage math prodigy at Harvard. During
his sophomore year, he was recruited into long
-term psychological study run by Dr. Henry Murray
at the Harvard Psychological Clinic. On paper,
it was to measure how bright young men responded
to intense stress. But what actually happened
was a three -year program of purposeful, abusive
interviews. Kaczynski and other students were
asked to share their deepest beliefs and personal
philosophies. Then while wired to monitors, they
were subjected to vicious, humiliating attacks
on those beliefs. Told they were stupid, worthless,
contradictory, where their psychological responses
were recorded. And this went on for years and
years. open document. There are stamps of the
MKUltra label on this case file and there's no
solid evidence that he was given drugs, but the
timing, the funding climate, the nature of the
work, breaking down identities, studying stress,
mapping reactions, have led many researchers
and conspiracy thinkers to set this as a psychological
cousin to MKUltra. In their narrative, you've
got a brilliant, emotionally fragile teenager
subject to years of government -linked psychological
torment who then disappears into a shack in the
wood and becomes back as America's most infamous
domestic terrorist. And if you don't draw a straight
line between these two, the story forces an uncomfortable
question. How many experiments on young minds
left scars that nobody traced until it was far
too late? And we're just talking about all these
famous, really evil people that killed a lot
of people in different ways. And I just wonder,
man, if something of taking these drugs really
flips that switch into demonic possession and
it makes you do very evil things. Because from
Whitey Bulger, to Manson, to Ted Kaczynski, to
probably many more that we could talk about,
did some really horrific things when they were
involved in this experimentation. Yeah. You look
at cult leaders, especially back in like the
sixties and seventies. And I wonder how many
of them have ties back to MKUltra. Like you have
Jim Jones. There's some loose connections that
he may have been involved in some of the research
and studies. And we all know what he did. He
went down to South America proclaiming religious
message and convinced his followers at the end.
I'll drink the juice and off themselves. So I
think a lot of this information, even though
they destroy it, what do you make of the 12 ,000
pages of documents destroyed? What kind of horrible
crap are they covering up? And then on the back
end of that question, I wonder how many people
that they're protecting that are actually Truman
chairing candidates that are out there that are
leaders in industry, leaders in religious institutions,
cult leaders. It's gotta be in the thousands.
I don't know why else you would destroy it other
than. Obviously you're trying to cover up the
horrible crap you've done and you're trying not
to spend the rest of your life in prison. But
I think on the other side of that coin is you
want to protect your assets in the field. You
don't want people to know who has been programmed,
who has this information, who is actively using
it. And I'm sure a lot of this stuff that happened
back in the fifties, sixties and seventies is
now manifesting in our social media, in our television,
our news media. And I don't think it's a far
leap. The CIA, the FBI, whoever. government,
and just not the U .S. government, but governments
all over the world are using the techniques underneath
different names, different guises to still perpetuate
this program. Yeah, and you got survivor stories
as well. Christine Dian Nicolai, sometimes called
Christine Kaleb in like these older online posts,
who, you know, she gave public testimony years
after the official program was supposed to have
ended. And in her statement, she describes being
used from childhood into adulthood. roughly 1966
to 1976, in a series of experiments she says
involved radiation, drugs, and systematic mind
control. According to her testimony, the objective
wasn't therapy or research. It was to shape her
into a controlled asset, a spy assassin whose
mind could be steered through programming, triggering
phrases, and trauma. She talked about self -destruct
messages, death commands, and later attempts
by one of her doctors to reverse the implant
instructions so she wouldn't kill herself on
cue. In her words, she spent her adult life trying
to survive programming that was designed to either
use her or eliminate her. There's no declassified
file neatly confirming her story, but her account
lives in this gray zone of congressional testimony,
survivor networks, and conspiracy archives. The
MK Ultra world, the stories like Christine's
are treated as human voice of everything the
shredded documents don't show us, and what it
would feel like to live as a long -term experiment
and to break... breaking and rebuilding the mind.
And I can only imagine there's many more stories
out there that confirm the validity of what the
government was trying to do and why they shredded
those documents. As you stated, are there more
assets out there in the field? I guarantee you
there are, maybe not anymore because we're now
in 2025. Maybe they're old or self -destructed
themselves already or whatever the case may be.
I think there was a big cadre of candidates out
there to do their bidding and to be that asset
that they needed. Yeah. Another interesting person,
Velma Orekha. She was the wife of the Canadian
prime minister at the time. And she ended up
going to one of the hospitals secretly conducting
these MKUltra experiments because of postpartum
postnatal depression. And she was subjected to
deep patterning and psychic driving. So they
ended up suing the government and in lawsuits,
she testified to losing much of her memory and
becoming like a child. And she really struggled
to rebuild her life afterward. And so she became
the lead plaintiff in Oracle versus the United
States. the CIA overfunding of the MKUltra program.
So even people with a lot of power somehow ended
up in this web of MKUltra. Can you imagine being
depressed or having anxiety or going to a mental
hospital or just a regular hospital because you're
really struggling and next thing you know, you're
going through this experimentation without your
knowledge, just making your condition that much
worse? It's got to be a freaking nightmare, man.
Yeah. I think about the patient. In the 1950s,
he had checked into a hospital and signed up
to get extra privileges, to make some money.
And they put him on LSD for 77 straight days.
Now, I've never taken these drugs, but I can
only imagine what that could do to your psyche
or what could that do to your mental state. And
I really think that your reality may start blending.
If they're just continuously dosing you and you're
continually hallucinating and the hallucinations
are getting crazier every time that you experience
it. Trying to think of a fact that I feel like
somewhere out there and folks can correct me
if I'm wrong, but I think they said if you take
LSD like five times in your lifetime, you could
be almost clinically insane. Like you could have
mental issues just from taking it five times.
I couldn't imagine taking it 77 times in a row.
I can't imagine what that would do to you outside
of killing you and you're just an empty hollow
person at that point. Yeah, I feel like. That
would just be mental torture. I don't know how
your psyche you would have. You'd probably be
so adverse to getting psychological help, but
you'd almost have to put your psyche back together
with the help of someone. I would. default to
Jesus and reading the Bible to put it all back
together. But I can't imagine just the chemical
damage you've done to your brain at that point.
Like your neurochemicals have to be so jacked
up. Your brain structures have to be so damaged
that I think it would take years and years of
therapy and prayer and just intentional self
love put the pieces back together. I think I
know we're getting close to the end and that
we haven't gotten into a ton of the really weird
conspiracies, but I just want to run through
a couple of them. Some of them we've talked about,
but so we have dementia. the theory of the Manchurian
Candidate Sessions. So, you know, this kind of
draws from MK Ultra's hypnosis and drug tests
on subjects. And it points back to political
figures that have been assassinated and in turn
relates to people like Lee Harvey Oswald, which
we talked about a bit. And some people suggest
that we are still seeing some of these MK Ultra
type assassinations. Even modern day, like that
kid who tried to assassinate Trump, the whole
Charlie Kirk thing is getting super weird. And
there's some suggestions that. there may have
been some MK ultra type people involved in that
whole thing as well. And then you talked a bit
about Project Monarch and a lot of this has to
do with celebrity mind control. So the theory
is that Hollywood stars and musicians are MK
ultra slaves programmed via trauma symbols and
triggers since childhood. And you can see some
of these videos where these celebrities quote
unquote glitch out and they have weird physical
movements and they just act super bizarre. I
think you can write that off to a lot of things
like be mental health issues, heavy drug use,
just people that big ego that are just acting
bizarre just to get clicks. Britney Spears seems
to be a pretty big one. She's acting very bizarre.
At a certain point too, it seems like these child
stars always end up suffering in adulthood. And
I wonder, could that be attributed to MKUltra
processes? Yeah, of course. But could that Be
just mental health problems manifesting because
when you're a kid, people were telling you how
great you're famous. You have a ton of money.
You start creeping into adulthood and next thing
you know, nobody wants to hang out with. Nobody
wants to cash you. Nobody wants to hear your
music. I don't know. That's a rabbit hole. I
don't think we have time to get into. And I know
plenty of people that have their theories, but
how much of it is just drug use? And I think
a large proponent of it is people just trying
to stay in the forefront of the media with bizarre
acts. Like they say, all exposures, good exposures.
such thing as bad media, bad press. Yeah, I think
the approach is different, but I think the CIA's
approach is different to these control experiments.
I think about Master Sergeant James Stanley,
who volunteered for experimentation. They gave
him a clear liquid to drink and he didn't particularly
hallucinate, but he had like strange reactions.
It caused depression. He went on with his life,
forgot about it, but his marriage collapsed.
His life steered off course and everything fell
apart for him after doing these drugs. And 17
years later, later, he gets a counterclaim for
the United States government saying, sorry about
testing these drugs on you. We'll try to support
you, get you some mental health treatment stuff.
And he had never known that he had been given
these drugs. He knew he was given something,
but he didn't know what he was testing and he
didn't have any crazy hallucinations, but he
did have behavioral changes. When we think back
to that era, and I could be wrong, but I don't
think people knew such powerful drugs existed.
A lot of people were smoking pot or doing whatever,
but having these crazy hallucinations really
change it and alter it. brain chemistry wasn't
widely known at that time. They didn't have the
internet. They didn't have the stuff on TV that
people weren't into about or talking about. Now
in modern days, everybody knows about LSD. We're
talking about on this show, doctors trying to
sell it to you in micro doses to help with anxiety
and depression, much like mushrooms or whatever
the case may be. So everybody knows about it
to some extent. They know it's this very powerful
drug. You're part of the alternate crowd where
you think it's going to heal you, or you're part
of the crowd that enjoys it as a party favor
or you're like me and you think it's all bad
stuff and you should stay away from it because
you know it's going to have unintended consequences.
So I think now you've got to change your engagement
strategy if you're thinking like a CIA analyst
and you want to continue to sway people's opinions
or do your bidding for you. And I think we see
a lot of that with the internet as you touched
on, whether it be movies or movie stars or memes
online or Reddit forums or social media. or whatever
the case may be. You can change people's opinion
and guide them to a certain fact. And if they
didn't start out A, how do we get them to Z to
make them believe this way or do this thing?
So I think a lot of it continues. And you talked
a little bit about how MK search really wasn't
the end. As we talked about MK Ultra ran from
1953 to about 63 or 64, then it was terminated.
But what the fine print says is a lot of work
simply moved into a follow -on program called
MK search. And later, CI correspondence and hearings,
MK search is explicitly described as a project
that funded the non terminated portion of MK
ultra activities. So I think we can see that
even though all this horrific stuff was uncovered,
components of this experimentation continued.
And I think we still see it today. As you said,
I was going to say Charlie Kirk earlier. I forgot
his name for a brief moment, but that's who I
was talking about in the earlier conversation.
A lot of people think he's tied up to this and
they don't quite understand why some kid like
him would sassinate this guy in a public. for
him knowing that he's going to be caught. As
he drops down from the building, somebody's been
very trained for this, being able to jump off
a building and not get hurt and all that stuff
and getting the gun by at his age with, again,
no training. People call that into question.
I find it interesting. I don't know if I believe
in that theory or not. I think he was taken up
for his trans girlfriend and he thought he was
doing some justice by her, but there is a lot
of weird facts about that story. I don't know
what to think about that story. I always, the
more I live my life, the more I see just the
weird, bizarre stuff. that happens out there
in this world. I always feel like there's a Patsy.
It's the guy that to a certain extent, he agrees
to be a part of the quote unquote operation.
This isn't specific to the Kirk thing. This is
just in general with all these high profile type
of assassinations or high profile, high impact
events that there's a group of people and one
unwitting, unlucky guy is the guy who doesn't
know it, but he's the guy to take the fall. So
though he may have been on that roof with a gun,
it doesn't mean necessarily he's the one that
that took the shot. Again, I don't really know.
I try not to pay a lot of attention to it. Part
of it, I think, is a little bit of a distraction
from stuff that's going on, because that whole
thing is grown legs and is taking a walk on its
own. But I kind of want to circle back to the
whole marijuana thing too. Like the marijuana
back in the 50s, 60s, 70s was rather low THC
content. The marijuana they're creating today
genetically has an astronomical amount of THC
compared to the stuff that was naturally occurring
in Earth. and high enough doses THC can be a
psychedelic and cause psychotic and schizophrenic
type behavior in individuals. Just looking at
the data, if you're prone to psychotic induced
THC, or if you're prone to being psychotic, you
will have a seven -fold increase of actually
triggering a psychotic break if you ingest too
much THC over a long period of time. And if you're
not prone to having psychotic breaks or prone
to psychosis, you have a four -fold increase
to experiencing a psychotic. episode. So right
there in and of itself is a scary statistic with
all these drugs being streamlined and mainlined.
And now the whole psychedelic thing is quickly
falling in the same footsteps. It makes me wonder
how many of us are MK altering ourselves. You
take these drugs, there was even studies testing
the water supply and there's small amounts of
SSRIs in the water. So if you drink water out
of your faucet, or if you're drinking heck water
even out of your filter, you're getting micro
doses of SSRIs like it or not. in most areas,
especially big metropolitan areas. So I wonder
with the combination of social media, the media,
and everything else you interact with in your
daily life that revolves around the computer
or your television screen, how many of us are
actually being programmed slowly over time and
don't even realize it. I feel like this world
is more divided today than it was 50 years ago,
60 years ago. Heck, even when we were growing
up, the world didn't seem this divided. And I
wonder how much of it is driven by the algorithm.
by AI and you've seen plenty of newscasts, plenty
of videos that compare the newscasts and the
news anchors literally verbatim recite the same
script regarding certain events and certain topics.
So you have that repetition. You have people
that are either intentionally smoking marijuana
or intentionally taking psychedelics that are
making their brains more suggestible. And then
people that are on SSRIs willingly, and then
people drinking or taking microdoses. of SSRIs
through the water because they choose or don't
need these other chemicals in their lives. So
part of me thinks that we are MKL -turing ourselves
to a certain extent, at least the vast majority
of the population is, especially with this tribalistic
nature that we've devolved into over the past
20 years. Yeah. It's people, they go after the
pharmaceutical option rather than nature. I deal
with anxiety quite a bit. And one of the ways
I essentially cured it was I realized that I
was deficient in magnesium. I started taking
magnesium instead of taking the drugs the doctors
wanted to sell me. And it did a world of good
for me. And a lot of these deficiencies in diet
that we see today can be linked to deficiencies
and not to go off topic here, but I just found
it fascinating because I just recently started
taking magnesium supplement. And I found out
because I'm allergic to gluten, your body does
not produce magnesium very well. And most people
that have celiac disease are deficient in magnesium.
Like they just can't gain enough through their
diet. I basically cured my anxiety by taking
magnesium and it's just exciting. So I'm just
throwing it out there. If you have anxiety, maybe
you should try magnesium. It might be helpful,
but to get back to it, I think as you scroll
through certain corners of the internet, you
do see people dissecting music videos, fashion
shoots, award shows, pointing out butterflies,
checkerboard floors, broken dolls, one eye imagery
and cages. Now to most viewers, it's just edgy
or art direction. But to MK Ultra, conspiracy
fans. vocabulary of symbols linked to monarch
style programming. In this theory, some celebrities
aren't just entertainers, they're programmed
assets with handlers, managers, doctors, and
security people whose real job is to monitor
and maintain the conditioning. Public breakdowns,
sudden rehab visits, bizarre interviews, or blank
stares on camera are labeled as glitches or deprogramming
attempts. And when an artist complains about
not controlling their own image or music, it's
read not just as a business dispute, but as a
hint that they're under deeper control. Thank
Britney Spears here. The version of MK Ultra
turns the entertainment industry into this kind
of psychological theater. The ideal that the
same symbols used to trigger or reinforce programming
inside the subjects are pushed out to the public
as well. Conditioning the audience is a lighter
level. The line between this is a music video
and this is a ritualized message blurs those
lines together. And even if you don't buy it,
it changes how you look at a constant stream
of curated images where all soaking in or everybody's,
I love this song. And I'm like, have you ever
listened to the lyrics? Like they're awful. You
probably shouldn't be playing that, but people
eat into it. And I think if you talk about shooting
your friends down the street in a cool rap video,
eventually, maybe you might think that's okay.
Yeah. I think it goes back to the repetition.
Like you are what you think. And if you listen
like they study them in K -Ultra, it's like a
driving. It's the same message repeated over
and over again. And you know how it is. Like
you'll listen to a podcast, you'll listen to
music when you're working out or taking a walk
or just chilling. and you trans out. You go into
the theta wave state and children spend a ton
of time in the theta wave state. below the age
of seven. That's why they're able to learn so
much more efficiently than we are. Their brains
are more pliable. But as adults, you don't go
into Theta as often as a child does. But when
you're tranced out, you've done it before you're
driving and you're like, wow, I traveled 15 miles
when I feel like I've maybe only should have
traveled two. That's a trance. But when you're
listening to something, listening to a message
and maybe in different words, depending on the
music you're listening to. But when you boil
the message down, violence. money, fame, power,
whatever, is starting to ingrain in your psyche.
And then as deeper it gets ingrained, the more
it's going to affect over time and it's going
to affect how you react because, you know, you've
been mad before, you've reacted in a way that's
not cool and everyone does it. But sometimes
I think those messages build that reaction pattern
deep down inside. So when you become in a heightened
emotional state, your reaction is already pre
-programmed instead of stepping back, observing
the situation. and then responding versus reacting.
So I think it's interesting that this music is
geared toward younger people. So I think it's
taking into account that the younger you are,
the more that this programming may take root
into your psyche and the people, the powers that
be can manifest program and trigger those reactions
in somebody who is sub 25. Your prefrontal cortex
doesn't fully develop until you're 25 years old.
I just find it pretty convenient. that most of
this media that we consume is really geared toward
those 25 years and younger. Yeah, a hundred percent,
man. I think whenever you have drugs, money,
and people willing to do ugly things for it,
you are leading towards a culture of shit. And
if it's government sanction, it's even worse
because they can get away with it and not get
prosecuted. Yeah. It's almost people are trying
to drive towards a great reset. Yeah. So I think
this is where we pose the question. What do you
make of all of this? It's a good question. Obviously
MK Ultra is real. I think it's... very evil.
I think it's been proven that it's very evil.
And I don't think it stopped in the 60s or 70s.
I don't think it ended with MK search. I think
it goes on today in our society in the United
States and across many societies across the globe.
Hopefully in the United States, we have some
constraint, like we've learned some lessons and
after violating the new murder laws, different
things. So hopefully we learn some lessons and
it's not as bad. But what I can say is that post
-World War II, we really saw the moral decline
of our society here in the United States. And
these bad values are being pushed out and into
mainline narratives. I worry about the future
that my kids, what country are they growing up
in? I worry about that and getting somebody into
office that are going to make the right decisions.
I don't even know if that's a possibility anymore.
It just seems to people get more extreme and
willing to take more risk and more chances. If
we don't end with a boom with World War III,
perhaps we just stutter out. We've seen great
society. societies fall before. It really is
great in terms of conquering like the Roman Empire
among many that have fallen when they seemingly
seemed impossible for them to fall. I think MKUltra
started it, but again, I don't think it ended
there. I think it's highly evil. I think it's
demonic. I think there's just so much badness
about this, Jay. I'm almost lost for words. And
not only when we talk about the 60s and 70s and
the moral degradation of our country. Back then
it was experimentation. A lot of people weren't
doing the same drugs. Now people take it willingly.
Let me just sign up for this. If somebody said,
I'm going to stand out on a street corner and
hand out LSD and you can get it every day for
free. If you're somewhere in California or wherever,
there's probably going to be a long line of people
that are going to be waiting for their handout
of daily LSD. People are just willing. It's almost
like they're brainwashed to think that drugs
are cool, that alcohol is cool, that all these
things are really cool to do and they're fun.
And that's the only way I'm going to have fun.
And I'm not sure what that next step is going
to look like, but it's all bad. man. It's all
bad. Yeah, man. I agree. We used to live in a
culture where if you took drugs, you were shunned.
And now modern day culture, you're almost shunned.
If you think taking drugs is bad, it's scary.
Like you said, people will line up around the
street, heck sell their souls literally and figuratively
to get high. And it scares me because marijuana.
and its derivatives become mainstream. You can
pretty much get it wherever you want without
having to go into a back alley and hand some
sketchy guy 20 bucks for a bag of marijuana.
You can go into a store now and buy drinks that
have it in it. And now it seems to be in popular
culture via Joe Rogan and a bunch of famous people
championing the use of psychedelics to expand
your mind and make your mind more neuroplastic
and awaken your... third eye or whatever BS they're
trying to sell. I think we know, and it's the
government even admits it, MKUltra was a real
program. They very clearly stated their goals
as a true serum, a way to erase memories, a way
to instill second, third, fourth personality
types in the people. And those 12 ,000 documents
that were destroyed, I think they were probably
more than likely sold off to big corporations.
big media, big pharma. And I think you're seeing
the natural after -effects today where again,
drug culture has become normalized, social media
has become normalized. I think you see the hypnotic
patterns in music and television in these social
media apps and in tandem with drug use, SSRI
use that is both intentional and unintentional.
I think most people in K -Ultra themselves now,
and I'm a little bit concerned as to what research
they're doing now because there's still programs
going on that are not declassified. And I wonder
what other ways they're coming up with to manipulate
the populace. We look at conspiracy through a
biblical lens and it seems like stuff is starting
to line up with biblical end times. They talk
about the use of pharmacia and how it's normalized.
It's pretty much normalized across the world.
And I often wonder in the end times where people,
there's a mass falling away from the faith, the
Christian faith and people worshiping the beast.
the Antichrist, the One World Religion, One World
Government. How does that happen? It has to be
something pretty freaking convincing to happen
to make that whole thing come to fruition. And
I think we probably see, if not the mid -stage
outcome as to how that happens with, like we
stated, the drug use and the constant repetition
through media to instill a message into your
psyche and make you highly suggestible to the
intended outcome. Yeah, it's no longer the drugs.
It's the algorithm pushing what you should consume
and what you should believe and all those things.
Thank you. Guard your hearts. What do you want
to close with tonight? Yeah, man. Same thing
I always do. Jesus loves you. We love you. I
love you, brother. Root yourself in wisdom and
discernments. Don't believe everything you hear.
And unfortunately now I have to kind of state
the. Other part, don't believe everything because
now you can look at stuff on the TV and there
is a good chance it may be AI generated. And
as time progresses forward, that's just going
to become more and more believable. And they'll
hit a certain point where you're not going to
be able to tell if. That thing you're seeing
on TV is real or if it's fake. Call back to the
dead internet through our last episode. How much
more would we believe it if we're all doped up
on LSD and these different drugs that they're
pushing today. It would feel even more real.
But I agree with you, bro. I love you. I think
it's been a good episode. It's always eye opening.
People I've never seen stranger things, but I
think you said talks about MK Ultra or something
and you just got to have discernment. And when
you can discern things of a clear mind, body
and spirit, you can make appropriate. choices,
and it's going to be important and it's going
to grow even more important as the days, years,
and decades go forward. I think the good thing,
the alert for our audience is that next week,
our first interview is coming up and we have
a whole series of interviews going to be right
on the back end of it. So we have a lot of exciting
guests lined up. We're excited to talk with them
and explore their stories and how it connects
to what we do here at Zero Signal. But yeah,
we're going to have a ton of fun and had a ton
of fun with you today, Jay. Love you and we will
see you next week. Well then, we are Zero Signal.
We're out.