Welcome to her comeback. I'm so glad you're back
with me. This is where 50 isn't your finish line.
It is your starting point. The starting point
of everything you want your life to be. The person
that you are meant to be. I'm your host, Michelle
Thompson, and we are proving that your best chapter
may just be the one you haven't written yet.
We'll continue each episode featuring honest
conversation with women who have stopped going
at it alone and have found their way to fulfillment,
joy, and purpose in their second act. You'll
hear about their struggles, their breakthroughs,
and the practical steps that they took to create
lives that they actually love. This podcast will
show you how other women have made their comeback
and how you can too. Welcome back. Good day,
everyone. Welcome to her comeback. I'm your host,
Michelle Thompson, and I am so thrilled today
to have Dr. Julie Maryman all the way from Texas
joining us. Maryman is a counselor, educator,
licensed clinician, speaker, and author. With
over two decades of experience helping high achieving
women over 50 navigate burnout, compassion fatigue,
and nervous system depletion. She's the author
of In Pursuit of Soul Joy and has a book coming
out this spring that we'll talk about. She also
hosts two podcasts, which are both Compassion
Fatigue Cure and Sexy After 50. So Julie, welcome
to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you today.
Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here.
Just so honored. Thank you. Well, let's kind
of jump into it and learn a little bit more about
you here. So you work with high achieving women
who are still functioning, but barely. Were you
ever one of those women yourself? Oh girl, I
crashed and burned and burned again. Yes, my
book in Pursuit of Souljoy is my journey back.
Talk about how I crashed. What was your own turning
point? These things, it's so subtle because we're
over -functioning, we're bracing, we just push
through. We're like, I can do this. Oh, I don't
want to, but I'm going to. You just push and
push and push. So it's so subtle as it hits,
but I remember I was on stage speaking. It was
an even a standing ovation. It had gone very
well. I came off of stage and I was just all
but in tears. I was so numb. I couldn't understand
why I couldn't feel any of the things that were
happening. And that was really the moment when
I realized something wasn't right. I should be
feeling. I should be being. I should Be in my
skin and feel alive and I just felt dead. I just
felt like a Just a walking head of competence.
I wouldn't even attached to my body at that point
Oh, wow. Yeah, I can identify with that So you
say you didn't arrive at this work through just
a trend or theory you arrived there through decades
of watching what actually happens to women. And
it sounds like from your own experience, who
carry responsibility for living, what did you
keep seeing that nobody was talking about? These
women were so successful, so just over the top,
unbelievable that they could accomplish the things
they accomplish. They couldn't take a compliment.
But they couldn't take a compliment. They were
not feeling what they were doing. They felt like
somehow something was wrong with them. They should
be doing more. And that seemed to be a pattern.
And they were unhappy. Not, not with their husband,
not with their children, maybe not even with
their job, but they were just unhappy with the
life, how it was rolling. So many demands, not
being able to set boundaries, feeling like it
all comes down to nervous system regulation.
Truth be told, this is a very dysregulated, regulated
nervous system. And that was something I really
noticed when it came to let me set a boundary.
Oh, Oh, I can't do that. If I set a boundary,
the saber tooth tiger that's chasing me is going
to eat me. That really seemed to be a pattern.
They weren't able, they felt selfish if they
were going to do something for themselves and
rest just kicked them into a state of guilt.
I can't rest. What do you mean rest? Didn't even
know how to rest. Forgetting that. even helpers,
because a lot of the women I work with are counselors,
doctors, nurses, educators, professional helpers.
You forget how to receive because you're so busy
giving and that, you know, everyone needs to
take care of themselves. It's not selfish. Oh,
absolutely. And I hear you. There's so many women
that struggle with that, you know, that it's
just exactly what you said. It's like, oh, if
I do that for me, I'm selfish. How do you get
beyond that mindset? Do you have thoughts on
that? Well, I do. It's not something we can think
our way out of. And being a good cognitive behavioral
therapist. Yeah. So I was like, think your way
out of that, Mary. You cannot. It is, you've
got to get embodied. You've got to feel what
you need to feel. And that's what we try to do,
girl. Let's think our way out of this. I got
a good head on my shoulders. I'm going to think
my way out of this. It's not going to work until
you get embodied, feel what you need to feel.
And then something magical happens. You start
spontaneous joy. You feel alive. Somehow your
skin fits better. I mean, it's just amazing.
When you can allow yourself some of those things
you're afraid of. And I think fear is a big fat
liar. Everything we need is on the other side
of that often. Oh, I believe that as well. Oh,
so true. So true. So most people picture when
you say just the word burnout, they get like
this dramatic collapse, but you have described
it as showing up more. quietly as a flatness
or a numbness or loss of desire. So walk us through
the look and feel of it that you've seen with
your clients. One thing that comes to mind, and
these were interns, when you're trying to be
a counselor, you have a graduate degree, then
you have to be with a supervisor for 3 ,000 hours
before you're fully licensed. So this was when
burnout really came on my radar. I'd see these
bubbly, vivacious interns coming in going, woohoo,
let's do this. Maybe six months later, they come
in and they're just dragging their bodies across
the floor like Igor. They were burning out. They
were not setting boundaries. They were not taking
the time for themselves. It is a loss of self.
You know, we become buried under our responsibilities.
That woman, that luscious, wonderful woman that
is within us becomes so buried. by responsibilities
and over -functioning and wallowing our truth
to keep the peace, which lands in our heart chakra.
I do a lot of chakra psychology as a resentment,
you know, and, and then that brings up shame
because how dare we have that feeling. And I
mean, it really lands in that law. If I had to
say it in a word, it's you're that loss of self.
We lose her. Yeah, I can definitely identify
that. And that over -functioning, that I am an
over -functioner, that is me. So you make an
important distinction, though, that these aren't
psychological failures, but they're physiological
responses. So why does that reframe matter so
much with women, do you think? Well, I think
first and foremost, like I said, you can't think
your way out of it. Shame. We've done something
wrong. I'm weak. I'm broken. I know I'm 63. My
hormones are gone. You know, whatever it might
be. We think we've done something wrong and then
we're ashamed to talk about it. So we're, we
suffer in silence because if I've failed evidently,
if I've got this, gosh, what's going on? And
it's physiological. Our nervous system is not
made to stay in survival state all the time.
And when we're functioning, we brace our pelvic
floor. It gets in the way of the bedroom life.
We're bracing all the time. That vagus nerve
is just like. this polyvagal system is completely
out of whack. And we wonder why a bubble bath
or a vacation doesn't make us feel better. We're
still exhausted. What, because we've got to do
the nervous system work before when our nervous
system is completely activated that frontal cortex
that we use to do those mind, you know, just
meditate, do a mind or the mind apps. I'm not
saying that right, but yeah. the apps that help
us, you know, calm or whatever it might be. If
our frontal cortex is not fully online, those
aren't going to work until we get that nervous
system regulated. and allow that cocktail of
adrenaline and cortisol that we're living on,
because that we're bracing and that nervous system
is like, well, fine, she, we're in survival state.
She sure doesn't want pleasure. That's coming
offline. Digesting meals. Eh, we'll see. Because
when your nervous system is activated, all those,
anything that's going to get in the way of running
from that saber tooth tiger is shut down. to
survive and you know that served our forefathers
who were dealing with the tooth tigers but they're
in the zoo now we don't have to our body does
not believe we're safe so it's it's not going
to relax until we get that nervous system regulated
and let our body know we're safe. And I don't
mean like someone's going to hit us. I mean,
oh my God, I'm going to miss a deadline. Oh my
God. Did I forget to pick the kids up? Oh my
God. I missed that appointment. Whatever. A dysregulated
nervous system. is what is behind burnout. That
is my theory. I'm sticking with it. That. Yes.
Yes. And I understand that. It's like staying
in a constant state of fight or flight. Like
with everything, whatever it is in our life,
we're constant fight or flight. Constant fight,
flight, freeze or fawn. And a lot of us gals,
fawn. People pleasing. Yeah. Yes. Like let me
appease so you won't kick me out of the tribe
because Once upon a time that happened. So, and
that over -functioning will slip in when we're
appeasing too. We know what someone needs before
they know what they need. And that keeps our
nervous system so activated. Pleasure is the
first thing to go to. And because the body says,
well, you, she don't need that. Our brain is
very stingy with the energy. You don't need that.
So I'm going to put on my, your energy here.
Yeah. Constantly, constantly. And all the hormones
that don't, not the nice hormones, the, that
stress cocktail of the adrenaline and cortisol,
which, which slides over into our immunosuppression.
You get more colds. You're the first one to get
the flu. You have a constant sinus infection.
Just. Yeah, let it. She's not good. Yeah. So
you mentioned also identity erosion as one of
the symptoms. So that phrase is striking. What
do you mean by that and what's actually happening
underneath that? Yeah. And we've hit on a little
bit. It's identity erosion is when we're so busy
performing. And I don't mean like we're being
fake. I mean, you know, I'm mom, so I've got
to do these things. I'm obviously, I'm the Dean,
which I do that for a while. So I've got to do
these things. I'm a wife. I've got to do this.
We're so busy doing and performing that we've
lost sight of who we actually are. It erodes.
It's that swallowing our truth to keep the peace.
It's that, gosh, girl, it's, you're not embodied.
You've lost sight of who you really are. Who
am I if I'm not taking care of others? Who am
I if I'm not? The first one to make sure Needs
are met. Who am I if I'm not the friend that
takes on everyone's responsibility? I mean we
just lose sight of that beautiful being under
all that Right. Yes, definitely. So let's talk
a little bit more about the nervous system framework
So you've said nervous system first so it For
someone that's not really familiar and doesn't
really understand what we're saying here, what
does that mean? And why does that work? So the
polyvagal theory and you know, Steven for Dr.
Steven, poor Hays came out with this. I mean,
it's it hadn't been around forever. It's Fairly
new when it comes to theories, but he recognized
that when our vagus nerve which runs from our
brain stem all the way down to our tippy toes
and it goes perfectly with my chakra psychology
because those were all the chakras but when we
get activated when we're not in a nice state
of just feeling calm and embodied and just fully
alive when we get upset and something Activates
our nervous system in a manner that has us kick
into flight where we're going to run and get
away from something or freeze where a lot of
folks with big T trauma freeze is a big one for
them or there is the. fight, the fight where
I'm going to, you know, my sister kind of kicks
to that one, you know, it just depends. We all
have one that we kick to, or the fawn, where
I'm just going to appease, appease, appease.
We have to, when we are activated in one of those,
we're not in a state for social maintenance,
if you will. We're not able to connect and be
socially, yeah, connected with others. That those
things it and it takes some work. You know, I'm
not saying you have to see a therapist But it
does take some work to really understand what's
activating me. Oh my god I want to set this boundary,
but I'm terrified to set this boundary and I
don't understand what's happening When our when
our nervous system is activated these things
come up I did I just got back from Costa Rica
with my kids my husband I took the kids And they're
in their 40s, grown kids. But I want to give
an example of what happened when I became very
activated. I am terrified of heights. Terrified
of heights. I think I will die. And that's what
happens when our vagus nerve gets dysregulated
or frozen or goes offline. So what are we going
to do as a family? We're going to go ziplining
above the jungles in Costa Rica. Beautiful. I'm
beautiful, but I'm like, why don't we be left
out? I'm going to go. So we're going to the first
zip line, you know, up all these little bridges.
I mean, girl, I was, I thought I was going to
wipe my pants. I was, and my, so really I got
so activated that fear of death was so real.
I was about to throw up. I mean, that's what
you're polyvagal. That's what you're, when you're
activated, it might not be throw up for everyone,
but for me, and I'm sorry, audience gross shell
out, but my oldest son, And my wife, two sons,
both my sons came and they're like, mom, they
were trying to help me get regulated, right?
Breathe. My youngest one, he says, he's like,
you don't have to go, it's okay. And my oldest
son was like, you're so brave, you can do this,
mom. And they looked me in the eyes and we were
breathing together. And what happened, my very
activated... nervous system that thought I was
about to die my mirror neurons kicked in to their
mirror neurons and I calmed down and I was able
to breathe because rectangle breathing is really
good with that and I was able to come back online
fully and go okay I'll try this I quit shaking
girl I'm shaking like a leaf but once my mirror
neurons kicked back in Thanks to my sons, I was
able to do that. And after the first one, I was
fine. But that's just an example of what happens
with our nervous system. We believe the thoughts
that come out when we're terrified or whatever
it might be and react to those. Those mirror
neurons are always available to us, but we just
have to have partners that understand how important
that is because If in our mirror, mirror, neuron
circuitry, if someone escalates, we're going
to escalate with them. But if they come down,
we're more likely to come down. So it's almost
like modeling the behavior, right? Like you have
someone there that's kind of modeling the behavior
that you need or is okay. All right. Very interesting.
Yeah, that's really interesting. So how does
like decades of caregiving performance or an
emotional labor literally reshape? a woman's
nervous system? You know, what has the body had
to learn to do? And then how do you unlearn?
And why is that so hard to unlearn? Yeah, yeah.
Well, after decades, two things are happening.
We have been our nervous system has been so braced
to just power through. That's why I'd say resilience
is almost almost abusive. I mean, depending on
how you use it, but when we're like, I'm resilient,
I'm going to power through this. We're so braced
for so long. Your nervous system has forgotten
it. Like I said, it's frozen in the survival
mode and pleasure is very hard to activate. It's
very hard to get to. So after decades of this,
it reshapes your body is like. This chick don't
do pleasure. All she does is work and she is
not going to relax. Let me just tell you, if
you try to get her relaxed, she's going to go
multitask, knit or well, knitting is not bad,
but you know, clean house and mop and do her
podcast. You're not just going to sit decades
upon that. We're teaching ourself and it's neural
pathways too. We have taught ourself that If
you are not doing, you're not valuable. Your
worth is only tied to your performance. So you're,
you better get out there and perform and your
nervous system is going to, I mean, it's like,
okay, that's what we do. We perform and it's
very hard. You've got that going. And then around
50, 53. Your estrogen goes, I still a Vista baby.
Menopause sets in. So your brain is like, but
wait, you were the buffer that helped me do all
these things and not kill people. We're going
to miss you. So in our fifties, and I think it's
a gift. I really do. It's a, we can have an awakening
where we're like, what in the hell is going on
here? You wake up in your life and you look around
and think, How'd I get here? But estrogen helped
us get there. We love it. I'm not dissing it,
but it helped us brace through some things and
have tolerance for some things that we find no
longer fit after 50, after 60, after 70. We want
to learn how to re -regulate that nervous system
and do things that feel good for us, not only
in service. And I'm not saying we don't love
others and we still show up and take, you know,
love the ones we love, but we've got to add ourself
into that love. Yeah. And I think what you're
going into with that is like a true like behavior
change. Is that what you're saying or what? I
know we said we don't start with motivation or
mindset. You know, why is that? Why am I? Why
not? I guess is what I'm asking. Sure when our
nervous system has been dysregulated for so long
and we're stuck in that survival mode with until
we can relax and allow that frontal cortex to
come fully online Those things aren't going to
be as valuable now. I'm not going to say massage.
You can be great. Take a bubble bath That's fine,
but you're gonna it's not going to be the absolute
reset that you're needing We need to really reset
that nervous system really teach her that she
can rely. I mean A lot of times my clients, I
have them do this. and drop their shoulders,
and they're like, oh my God, I didn't even know
I was bracing my shoulders up. We walk around
like this and don't even realize it. I do. Yeah,
definitely. I do. And I was like, just when you
said that, I was just like, oh, I had my shoulders
up just then, and I didn't even know it. It's
like, oh, boy. We do that. It really goes to
neuroscience, too. We've got all kinds of neural
pathways that we have beat into, you know, I've
got to do this. I've got to do this. So it's,
you know, we've got to get our nervous system
regulated so we can build some new neural pathways
to bring on some behaviors and things that we
that feel so good and so yummy to us in the you
know in this next chapter and it takes 67 days
to to rebuild a neural pathway and have others
dissipate so we have to have lots of love for
ourself self -compassion I'm real big on Mark
White's narrative therapy. I use that a lot for
my clients. I use a lot for me where we have
to catch the narrative of our story, what we're
telling ourself that's having us continue to
kick into that dysregulated nervous system and
rewrite that narrative so that it just feels.
smoother, more silky, and better to ourself.
It's not one thing, it's several things we need
to do to ourself, but ultimately we want to thaw
out that nervous system so we can come back online
and be really available to really be fully present
in our life. Well, I spend a lot of time with
my clients, my patients, learning, helping them.
Quit being that floating head of competence and
get re -embodied. What happens when we're so
dysregulated, it impacts our relationship with
ourself, our relationship with others, and just
what we believe we deserve, if you will. How
does the person, I mean, is it just kind of a
trial and error, like finding things that calm
me? Like, cause I talk to women that they have
like, I don't know how to calm down. I don't
know, you know, just like breathing techniques,
I guess. Number one, finding what helps, you
know, help what's calming, what helps bring us
down, so to speak. And then once we do that,
how do we know we've arrived? How do we know
that we've gotten to that space of regulation?
That's a great question. You're absolutely right.
We're all so different. And if we have big T
trauma, that's going to impact how well we're
able to come back online as opposed to I think
we all have little T trauma. I mean, if you're
survived childhood, there's a little T in there.
But yes, I like to give my women. Actual physical
things to do. I don't want to hurt your ears,
but breathing where you kind of vibrate your
throat Activates that vagus nerve to kind of
help calm down and like when I was in the tree
the other day you better bet I was Beyond the
mirror neurons But that's very important some
tapping is can help very much. We have some nerve
ends, especially around our collarbones breathing
and tapping can kind of help That feels pretty
good. Okay, I can calm that thought down. Okay,
that's a good thing. Visualizations can be very
helpful. There's like just had a glass shower
put in a glass shower wall where emotions come
at us so we're present with the person but those
real heavy emotions stick on that glass wall
and don't impact us that can be very very helpful
because our brain when we're attending to and
really connected with someone our brain does
not know their trauma is not our trauma and your
body is going to react to that so having some
things that help you not Get there is a good
thing. The rectangle breathing, well, it's four
in, hold for four, exhale for six. The exhale
needs to be longer to really get that vagus nerve
to kind of calm down. I know I've got a horse
out in my pasture, Rex, he's so good. He shakes,
have you? I'm sure you've seen it with your animals,
how animals shake when they get upset or they
get up and they shake. We're designed to do that
too. So getting up and shaking. If you're feeling,
I'm feeling a little bit tense. Oh, that's anger
coming up. Let me shake. I know it sounds silly,
but it's very helpful to be grounded. The most
important tool I could share with you is a full
body scan. Big deep breath, approach it with
curiosity and love. I just want to notice physical
sensations in my body. So from your top of your
head, eyes, throat, chest, tummy, all the way
down to your toes, approaching that with curiosity
and just seeing what your body has to tell you.
Girl, that is so powerful. And so many, I cannot
tell you, Michelle, how often I really have to
work with ladies to get them trained to even
go into their body. I don't want to feel that.
Yes. Yeah. But you know, I get it. Yeah. Just
little things. to kind of start on that pathway.
Walk outside, go on a walk without a phone. We
multitask so much. Technology really does not
help us in this space, you know, because it just
can, it keeps everything coming at us all the
time, you know, activated, absolutely activated
all the time. Yeah. Sit with your cat on your
lap. Yes. Animals are great. And there's a lot
of, you know, therapeutic Yeah. Tools out there
that with animals and you know, the whole thing
of just holding an animal in your lap, how that
just helps with calming. And I researched that
animal. I mean, if you like a lab scientist and
go, what are they doing? They take such, I'm
pointing to my cat. They take such good care
of themselves. They stretch, they lick. She'll
give me the finger and walk off if she does not
want anything to do with it. Yeah. My cat will
too. Oh, that's great. So. What is one thing
a woman can do this week, not a wellness trend,
but something grounded in your nervous system
framework that they can do to begin? I know you
went through a list of things there. If there's
one thing that you do this week, what would that
be? Well, it's here in Texas. It's getting a
little warmer. Grounding is so important. And
the reason I said getting a little warmer, I
would say take your shoes off. Mm -hmm and go
stand on some grass somewhere and we our body
needs that we are wired for that and Just kind
of rub your feet back and forth in the grass
Take a big deep breath gets vitamin D vitamin
D regulates our emotions help we need The sunshine
just and I'm not talking for 15 minutes five
minutes between something. I don't know phone
call whatever walk outside and ground yourself
on some grass. I love that. There's a lot of
research behind that too. I'm not smart enough
to spout it right this moment, but I know there's
a lot of research behind why that's so important.
Awesome. Thank you for that. So of everything
that we've been talking about here, if there's
one thing that what would you want most want
our listeners to take away from the work that
you're doing? Yeah. Souljoy is there for you.
We just have to quit asking permission. It's
there. So go ride a roller coaster. You will
feel alive. Yes. Let's talk about your upcoming
book. So talking about desire and intimacy. And
I love your title. Are we going to have sex or
what? Tell us about your new book. Oh, I am so
excited for this new book. It's all about nervous
system regulation. Really for us gals over 50
how to feel alive and just reignite desire and
really approach these this next chapter with
vibrancy. So there's a lot of nervous system
regulation tips talking about if our body is
not broken just because we're over 50 does not
mean we can't have a fabulous sex life. Fabulous.
Desire come up and there's lots. I mean there's
oh my gosh. I think there's 50 chapters in that
book I wanted to be sure I hit all kinds of things
hormones how to get yourself if the bedroom is
suffering how to techniques and things you can
do to Enjoy the bedroom again even scripts. I've
done a lot of marriage counseling over the 30
years. I've been doing there I was always surprised
with So many couples don't even talk to each
other about sex. They don't even have words to
have those conversations. Communication is an
aphrodisiac. We must be communicating. So I've
included scripts in the book to help people get
started. And here is something that's so fun.
Our nervous system. It gets bored with repetition.
So if you've been like, I've been married 35
years. If it's like, we're going to do this,
I'm going to do that. We're going to do that.
And you're nervous, checks out and goes boring.
We got to spice things up a little bit to wake
it back up and get things online. So I'll give
you tips for that. Oh, wonderful. That sounds
great. Yeah. I definitely will check that out.
Is there any belief about women and aging that
you'd love to see disappear forever? Yes. That
at 63, I'm going to look the same as I did at
20 and somehow something's wrong with me. Embrace
aging. It's a beautiful thing. I love my gray
hair, you know. Yeah. And speaking of hair, that's
definitely as we age, our hair changes a lot.
I don't know. I have had so many like texture
changes. And then when menopause started for
me, like I was losing my hair and then fortunately
I got it back. And you know, the hair is a big
deal as we age. It is. And also I have a lot
of chin hairs that I didn't. Yeah, for sure.
But you know, I think it's I just wish we women
would embrace every age as a journey. I mean,
this is fun. It's fun to, I'm the most comfortable
with myself than I've ever been, which could
be dangerous. Good for you. That's great. I love
that. Yeah. So for people to find you, for the
listeners to find you today, where your books,
podcasts, best way to just reach out to you.
What is that? That is my website. I also have
some freebies or a couple of fun things on there
if they go and look. It's www .juliemarymanphd
.com and the books are on there. My web, my podcast,
everything's on there. Wonderful. Wonderful.
Julie, you have just been a delight. I love your
energy and I just love the work you're doing.
And I think that it's just so needed. You know,
I see it, the things we've talked about here.
I see it in other women. I see it in myself,
you know, and it's just, yeah, just practicing
that self love, you know, letting myself know
it's not selfish to take care of myself, you
know, and that Like you just, you said it, giving
myself permission. Yeah. It's necessary. It's
necessary. We show up better when we do that
for ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again.
And I just wish you continued success in your
business and good luck with you launch your new
book. I just wish you all the best. You as well.
Ditto right back at you. Thank you so much. All
right. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining
me today on Her Comeback. I hope this conversation
inspired you to keep moving forward no matter
where you are in your own journey. If you love
this episode, I'd be so grateful if you would
subscribe to the show on my YouTube channel at
Michelle Thompson -LifeCoaching. Go there for
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final chapter. It's just the setup for your greatest
comeback yet. I'll see you next time. Until then.