Let's do it. You want to pray today? No, I'm
not ready for that yet, but I will in the near
future. All right. Father, in Jesus' name, what
a privilege it is to be before you. We truly
do get to do this. It's not just a moniker. It's
not just a saying or a slogan. It is a truth.
We get to do what we do. And so thank you that
we're here today. and to converse and talk about
you, about the world, about other things, whatever
it is Holy Spirit that you'd bring to our mind.
And our heart's desire is that the things we
talk about, maybe perhaps the things that are
anointed and appointed for such a time as this,
would help those who are listening to navigate
and deal with this crazy life in this world.
And so we pray, pray for everyone who hears this,
that you would take this where it needs to go.
In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. It's Wednesday, October
1st. We get to do this. This is episode number
four. We get to do this. Yes, we do get to do
this. We do and it's our privilege and it's our
joy to do so. Absolutely. How you doing, brother?
Hey, I'm doing great. It's been a hot minute.
It's been a wild week. Like two weeks. What is
today, by the way? October 1st. There you go.
We missed one because you were off in Nashville?
Nashville. You got to tell us about Nashville,
about the Nashville trip. So the Nashville trip
was we took Pastor Brian and Naomi and Nomers,
as I call her. I've called her that for 20 years.
So their folks live there, Pastor Brian's. parents
live there, and they're dear friends of ours.
We've known them for decades. And so anytime
we go back to Nashville, it's kind of a homecoming
to get together with the Mandels, to get together
with my kids and my newest grandbaby. Also in
Nashville. They're in Nashville as well. But
we were going for a conference that Alan Jackson
puts on every year. It's called Culture and Christianity.
And the unique thing about it this year that
made it really, I guess, special, you'd say,
or just different, is that Charlie and Erica
Kirk were scheduled to be the keynote speakers.
Yeah, that definitely didn't happen, I guess.
That didn't happen, but it put a different tone
and spin on the whole thing. The atmosphere was
absolutely electric. The place was packed to
the rafters. It was a sellout. and they house
about 15 ,000 people. It's crazy. Really? That's
how big the church is? Oh, it's huge. The church
is 15 ,000. That's crazy. And growing. Wait,
does Alan Jackson have his own jet? Because that's
always what people think of. They think of mega
church jet. I actually don't think he does. By
the way, I was offered a jet. I didn't get to
tell you this. What? I know. Hold on a second.
I know, right? You're not going to tell me you
turned it down. No, I just haven't. I talked
to the guy last week and said, let's talk about
it. I know it's crazy. Can I fly it, please?
So here's the deal. He heard, he heard me talking
from him. Hey, we had to make a dash over here.
I was on the airplane. When I got the news that
Charlie Kirk had been shot, we were coming back.
You're on Southwest. Cattle car. Herb's cattle
car. Absolutely. And so, you know, we're watching
other people, we're all grabbing our iPads and
phones. But anyway, he heard me tell that story.
And he was like, man, he said, you shouldn't
have to take a three hour flight from, you know,
San Antonio. Well, right. From Dallas Love, basically.
Of course, you got to stop in love and to get
here from Nashville. And he really felt bad about
that. But he's an entrepreneur and he's got international
businesses. And he just wrote me and said, hey,
Man, I'm not trying to make any money here. I
mean, if you just cover fuel and the pilot. That's
what it costs. He said, man, I'd be glad to make
sure you have dibs on that plane when you need
to go. Wow. And so, yeah, I was going to tell
you about that. That's actually how the big boys
do it. It's like you want my plane, just got
to pay for the pilot and the fuel. Yeah. So I
guess technically you could say Pastor Jimmy
has a plane. So let's, come on haters. Let's
use it. Let's grab all the haters. Just pile
on. because as long as I go, I'll pay for it,
then it's good. So anyway, that opportunity awaits.
So that was a really cool thing. I've never had
anyone offer me a plane before. Except for me.
Well, you, and that's different because we're
besties, but I mean, you know, just somebody
in the congregation who's got that kind of access
and says he wants to help us out and yeah. Anyway,
so I interrupted you about that. I don't own
one, but so yeah. Believe me, owning aircraft
is way overrated, I can tell you. It's like owning
a boat. Worse. So we were there for that conference.
The tone was different, as I mentioned. So what
they did, they brought in Eric Metaxas in place,
you know, to fill that slot. Eric is just such
a, he's just really has a finger on the pulse
of things. And so I loved what he brought. Every
speaker knew Charlie personally. So there was
a lot of weight in the room. I mean, you could
feel the gravity of mourning, the gravity of
grief in the room. And yet at the same time,
there was this incredible electricity. Like there
was... When we went into worship, Matthew West
and his daughter came out and that was really
cool and led worship. She was phenomenal, by
the way, and she's young, but wow, I think she's
18. But they came out and led worship. The first
time he came out with the band, second session,
it was her and him with a spotlight on each of
them and just him with his guitar. I love the
band, obviously, but that was actually more worshipful.
They did some of his songs. Of course. You know
the he did the song. Unashamed? Yeah, unashamed.
But he did the version where Matt, by the way,
Matt Munt, our buddy, he's the one who grabbed
all the pieces out of that. Did he have those
pieces in that? It's on Hello Fred right now.
Yeah, I love it. When it comes on, I get chill
bumps. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, so when I was
with Matt Munt in Tennessee doing his podcast,
that's another story I'm going off. But anyway,
so I asked Matt, because he works with Matthew
West, I said, Did you do the, you know, bites
or the music or the editing? He said, I didn't
do the editing, but I did pull off the clips
for that. Like, that's so awesome. It's so good.
And Matt's such a great guy. But it is, the song
is fantastic. I mean, he does, it seems like
every year he comes out with an anthem. Yeah.
Yeah. Just kind of a big anthem. Yeah. Let's
pray, you know, don't stop praying. I'm unashamed
with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Just solid.
It's perfect. Solid. Perfect. So yeah, so they
interjected Charlie's... some quotes and stuff,
and somebody else, a couple other people. I wasn't
sure who it was. There's a couple other voices
in there. But anyway, it was very powerful. So
yeah, so I could spend time. So we did that conference.
It was, like I said, electric. We go out there
because it fills our tanks, fills our buckets.
And it's really a lot of what we've been talking
about just as friends for many years is Bringing
culture and Christianity together and speaking
outside the walls of the church, which is is
just I'm so proud of our church I'm so proud
of the the staff and everybody here because it
really it resonates so well and that you see
it's filling up We got people are parking in
my spot passage. You mean We had people showing
up early this week because that very reason I
was unreal. I've never seen this before There
is a phenomenon going on. I was listening to
Josh Howerton and Jason McPherson, several mega
church pastors, but they're all young. These
guys are in their 30s and 40s, and they're mega
church pastors. There's five of them. They're
all talking back and forth about the Charter
Kirk effect, what happened, the impact, what
it's doing to their churches. Of course, they
have mega churches. Most of their churches are
non -denominational, large churches. you know,
we're talking tens of thousands of people in
these churches. Josh Howerton, I mean, he's in
his 40s, early 40s. His church runs 27 ,000 people
in person. Wow. Not just online, not just, I
mean, 27 ,000. Where is his church? He's in Rockwall,
Texas, just east Dallas, east of the lake. That's
insane. I know. What an amount of people. Amazing.
Phenomenal young pastors. These are kind of the
up -and -coming voices. Do you think at some
point it's too big? Can a megachurch be... I
mean, what is... Because for Fredericksburg's
population, we have a megachurch. Yeah, we would
be considered that. You know, like a thousand
people. Is there a point where it's too big?
Have you ever thought about these things? Oh
yeah, I've thought about it a lot. I mean, it
kind of depends on your personality as a leader.
I've never aspired for that. That's not something
that makes me get excited. wanting to have 15
campuses and 30 ,000 people. Sounds like a job.
Sounds like a big J -O -B, right? But I'm very
relational and very personal, so I like to know
who's in the church and I like to have friends
in the church. I was sitting with a group of
pastors. I'm going to just go chase this little
rabbit because I'm going to talk about this tonight.
A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting with some
young pastors. And they're all having a hard
time. They're kind of struggling in their churches.
They're small churches and they can't get a lot
of traction. I've talked to them about engaging
culture and they're like, oh, we can't do that.
They would fire me next week. I mean, these guys,
but they have 80 people, 50 people, 40. I mean,
it's hard. I remember being young and doing all
that, paying my dues. This is how you get your
reps in. And so I was talking to them and one
of the guys, Somehow the topic came up about
having friends in the church and he goes, oh
no, I have no friends. I will never have friends
in the congregation. I mean, first of all, the
look on my face probably gave me away because
I'm just like, oh, Pastor Jimmy doesn't agree
with that. You're all 40 years old and you're
telling me, he said, because you got to maintain
your authority. They got to know you're the pastor.
And I'm sitting there going, there's a reason
why you only have 30 people in your church. Yeah.
You didn't say that out loud. No, but I certainly
thought it. Because I didn't want to come back
and say something cutting. I didn't want to disparage
him. But the way he said it was with such conviction.
And I just thought, even if I said something,
it wouldn't have been gone. It's not really the
pastors, but their elders or their board won't
let them do that. That's what it sounds like.
Are you talking about culture or having friends
in the church? Well, both, maybe. Let's talk
about, yeah, those are separate issues. A lot
of churches that are elder -led or we'll call
them deacon -possessed. I know, right? They are
hard on their pastors. They put a lot of restrictions
around them. And so if you're a congregational
-led church, that means the church votes on everything.
Right. You can get in some hot water. Yeah, I
can see. So it really depends on your government
structure. We built a structure where, you know,
the staff and then we have lay elders, but we
have staff elders. So we do the day to day. We're
boots on the ground. Right. And we get to make
those decisions. But then we defer to our board
of directors, which is like the apostolic council
of Acts 15. So we built on that model. What it
allows us to do is get things done. We're not
sitting in red tape and waiting for everybody
to vote and then seeing people do mutinies and
voter registration to get that guy out. I've
seen that ugly stuff in churches before. That's
how you get a church split. We didn't build that
way. Neither do these churches that are growing.
The churches that are growing and moving the
needle in the world right now are churches that
are getting it done and they've got a structure
that allows them to do that. As far as the culture
thing, a lot of these young pastors feel restricted.
You know, when I made the decision to go full
speed ahead, I had to count the cost because
I did not know what would happen. It was an act
of faith, but it was also an act of conviction
before the Lord that I felt like as a pastor,
I have a responsibility to speak the truth because
of love. Speak the truth in love, speak the truth
because of love. And to hold back, God had moved
me into a place where it would be sin for me.
The scripture says that for a man to know what
to do and not do it to him, it is sin. That's
the scripture. Do you know which one it is by
any chance? I can tell you. It's not that important.
It's in the Bible. It's in the New Testament.
It's at the end. It is in the New Testament.
I do know it's in the back half of the Bible.
See, that's me. So anyway. I felt like to not
begin to address these things and really go there
would be sin for me because once you have truth
and you have a revelation or understanding of
something, you're now responsible for it before
God. As a pastor, that weighs heavy because I'm
not only responsible to God, I'm responsible
to hundreds of people or maybe even thousands,
depending on your scope and reach. And so anyway,
these guys are scared. And maybe they don't have
the same level of conviction I do about culture
because they love their Bible studies and they
talk about their preaching and their sermons
all the time. I never talk about my preaching
and my sermons. I talk about the message. The
sermons come and go. It's the message that we
carry that matters because the message is the
one thing. It's the bullet. It's the shot, hopefully
heard around the world. And so anyway, Walking
with these guys is interesting, but to hear a
young pastor say, I don't have friends in the
church. I will never have friends in the church
because they need to know who the authority is.
And I'm like, whoa, I didn't say this, but you
know me. I like to play on the worship team.
Yes, you do. And it's not just because I like
to play music. That's there. Of course, I love
playing guitar and I've done it for my whole
adult life as a Christian. But the other piece
of it, it allows me to be a church member. It
allows me to contribute something that's not
preaching, that's not leading. I'm submitted
to Pastor Russ, our worship pastor. And if he
tells me he doesn't like that lick or tone that
down... How could he, Pastor Jimmy? Your licks
are the best. I say, yes, sir. Yes, sir. I remember
I didn't tell Russ this ever, but it'll be a
joke if he hears this about five years ago. I
mean, I'd only been here a few years ago. He
was a little more temperamental back then. And
he turned and snapped at me one time in rehearsal
and he did not like what I played. And he made
a snarky comment, I quit for six months. I was
like, okay, I don't need another headache in
the church. So I stepped off the team for six
months and that's not why I took a break this
last year. That's a whole different thing. I
just really just focused. So yeah, I quit because
he made me mad. We got into a tuss. You rage
quit the worst team. I took my toys and went
home. Obviously, Charlie Kirk dominates our world,
dominates the world of faith of the church. I
have a couple of things that I brought with me
today because you know me. I'm doing my prep.
First of all, you blew my mind this past week.
You blew my mind. Read the Bible. I've read it
twice. Every day I'm in it for an hour. I'm reading
things over and over again. And you sent me a
scripture that I'm like, how did I never see
this before? And it is Isaiah 812. And I love
this so much because there's so much, right now
particularly, where the whole world, and it doesn't
matter how many times I... I go through it. The
whole world is in Charlie Kirk, death conspiracy,
the magic bullet is the catapact. And so, this
scripture fits it so well. I think that's why,
again, we text several times a day, so I think
that's why I sent it to you. Actually, I'm going
to read 11 through 17, because even in my Bible,
it's indented, which I think means something.
And it has a heading in my Bible, a call to trust
the Lord. So it starts with 11. The Lord has
given me a strong warning not to think like everyone
else does. He said, and this is Isaiah who received
this word, don't call everything a conspiracy.
Hello. Wow. Boom, got my attention. Drop the
mic. Like they do. And don't live in dread of
what frightens them. Make the Lord of heaven's
armies holy in your life. He is the one you should
fear. He is the one who should make you tremble.
He will keep you safe, but to Israel and Judah,
So, I went, I read like five different translations,
went back to King James conspiracy using King
James. Wow. And I was like, wow, this is amazing.
But I also pulled up the message version. And
so there it says, a boulder blocking your way.
It's a little more. Now, interestingly, the message
Bible doesn't use the term conspiracy, which
I found unfortunate. But God spoke strong to
me, grabbed me with both hands, warned me not
to go along with this people. And so I take it
not as, you know, there aren't conspiracies.
It's like, don't bother with that. Don't what
these people say. He makes a clear distinction.
These people are doing conspiracy stuff. That's
fine. Doesn't mean there's not conspiracies and
things going on, but trust in the Lord. which
comes right back to put down your screens, pick
up your Bible. That's really where my thinking
is going. But I do have a bit of a conspiracy
to discuss. Right after it says don't call everything
a conspiracy. Five words. Not everything. But
what's happening is, so on one side, and unfortunately
there's sides here, we're all obsessed with who
killed Charlie, all of these wild things, body
armor, ricochets, on and on and on and on. Holograms.
Holograms. CGI, AI, on and on and on and on.
And I understand it, I understand why people,
we've been raised on TV shows where it all gets
resolved in 22 minutes minus the commercials,
you know But I have been studying a lot about
the true enemy of America and and obviously the
devil is the enemy but when I look historically
as we come up on a 250th, there's still a lot
of Old world that does not like what we did which
is you know, we left England we said hey King,
you're the church, you're the boss of the Church
of England, you're not letting us pray how we
want to, not worship the way we want to. We're
going to start our own thing, we're going to
do it over here in this new land, and all of
the United States, all of America was founded
on the Bible. Just look at the Founder's Bible
to understand that and see all the original documents
from the Mayflower Compact. Actually, when they
put the cross before the Mayflower Compact, that
was... Where was that? They made that declaration.
I've got that actually. Bedford, but it wasn't
Bedford. No, it was... They put the cross up.
It's called the Dedication Prayer of 1607 in
Jamestown. Jamestown, that's it. Right. And so
they said, hey man, this is it. We're here to
spread the gospel. We're going to build this
new land. But it's not like the East India Company
from the Netherlands or... the bloodlines of
all these countries that have monarchies really
went away. And we don't want to go too deep into
it, but I've always thought, is this really just
ceremonial? Well, no, of course it's not. So
I think there's a lot coming out of the monarchies,
and they have their own deep state and everything
that is really... What nation doesn't? True.
that is very, that is messing with us. And I
think that we are blessed by God with President
Trump, who is literally fighting against that.
And I think it's being overlooked, it's being
missed. And I just want to play one background
clip of that. This is from two ladies, they're
called Prometheus Action. And they actually come
out of the Lyndon LaRouche camp. I don't know
if you remember Lyndon LaRouche. classic guy.
I mean, you know, for years, he's dead now, but
for decades, he was always trying to uncover,
you know, the truth of what's really going on
in government, etc. And so they're older, our
age, to be honest about it. And here's just a
little clip. They do they do shows like podcasts,
I think every every other day or every two days.
And I like a lot what they're saying. So I just
wanted to set up our conversation with this on
Sunday at the Charlie Cook Memorial. Our chronic
infection with British foreign policy diseases
began to be cured. Our founder's vision of the
United States was revived. Contrary to the British
agent Henry Kissinger, we were again a sovereign
nation living and building and creating according
to God's laws, freeing ourselves from the empire's
foreign wars. But you wouldn't know that from
the media. The New York Times and others imply
that the Kirk event weirdly joined religion with
Donald Trump's America first, worker first economic
policies. They said this had never happened before
at this scale. Here's the key quote. Perhaps
never before at such a grand scale has such a
fusion taken place in a public display. More
than just a tribute to the style of Mr. Kirk's
evangelical tradition, this service represented
a pinnacle event reflecting the degree to which
conservative Christianity has melded with Republican
politics in the Trump era. But prior to the most
recent run of total control of our foreign policy
by the British Foreign Office, we were always
like this. All our founding documents and all
our founders' foreign policies insisted We were
guided by God in a continuous mission to find
truth. We fled here to escape the forever wars
of Europe's oligarchs. I'm Barbara Boyd, and
I've been investigating and documenting the modern
British financial empire's subversion of our
country since 1973. So I play that just so they
don't just hear it from me, that, you know, this
is true. And you hear what the New York Times
writes like, this is crazy. What's going on in
order for us as believers as people who want
to speak into culture, if we want to address
it, because we can't just go out hating everybody
or like, you're over there, I'm over here. If
we have to understand the other side to be understood,
you have to first understand. And so, wow, the
media, which most people won't listen to this.
I'm the guy that listens to NPR. I'm the guy
that watches MSNBC. It's really getting pretty
insane. And so this next clip is from what I
call middle management of the North Sea Nexus
of, you know, I think the Clintons, they are.
the kind of the middle management kind of totally.
Are you going to play her? Yes. Oh, I know what
clip this is. Here it is. We haven't gotten to
the more perfect union and we fought a civil
war over part of it. And people have been protesting,
you know, for hundreds of years that, you know,
things were not as they should be given our ideals
and how we should be moving toward them. So I
think that's what makes us so special as a country.
And the idea that you could turn the clock back
and try to recreate a world that never was dominated
by, you know, let's say it, white men of a certain
persuasion, a certain religion, a certain point
of view. I take that, by the way, as straight
white Christian men. You got it. That's exactly
conservative. Just imagine anyone saying, Oh,
black men. I mean, you'd be run out of town,
but no, that's okay. It's okay to say this. A
certain persuasion, a certain religion, a certain
point of view, a certain ideology is just doing
such damage to what we should be aiming for.
And we were on the path toward that. I mean,
imperfectly, lots of, you know, bumps along the
way. But I agree with you. We were on the right
trajectory. And we know what the Clintons brought
in. We do. I was thinking, let's define what
that trajectory is. Well, the trajectory she's
talking about is gay marriage, abortion, trans,
et cetera, et cetera. That's what she and Bill
Clinton always stood for. And a larger covering
of that would be Marxism 101. Amen. Exactly.
Exactly. There's your rule book for radicals.
Exactly. It's right there. So we don't have to
worry too much about Hillary Clinton, but I know
that the left, I'll just call it the left, they
listen to NPR religiously, and NPR spins them
up to just an incredible degree. And one of my
favorite podcasts, it's on the radio as well,
to listen to is On the Media, where they discuss
the media, but they really don't discuss the
media, they just hate Trump. But in this case,
they brought on a guy who is from, it's actually
in the intro, he's a scholar, mind you, the Institute
for Christian Jewish Islamic Studies, I believe,
which is like, well, that's quite a lot of study
you got to do. That's a span. And they discussed
the Charlie Kirk Memorial and what they believe
Christians are doing and believe. And I think
they're saying it's dangerous. So I wanted to
run through a couple of these clips. And if you're
bored of it, let me know. Oh, no. Let's talk.
Because even I have questions about what they're
confidently saying is the truth. So they start
off with an introduction of this guy, a little
bit of background of Charlie Kirk, and then quickly
they get into the seven mountains, which is something
that, you know, We'll discuss it after you play
the clip. Matthew D. Taylor is the senior Christian
scholar at the Institute for Islamic Christian
and Jewish Studies in Baltimore. He's been exploring
the phenomenon that was and is Charlie Kirk and
his movement. He says Christianity wasn't always
a central part of Turning Point USA or of Charlie
Kirk's public persona. If you had asked me circa
2018, what are the most influential religious
right or even Christian organizations in the
country, Turning Point would not have been anywhere
on that list. Today, it's probably number one.
Do you believe that to be true? I thought Charlie
really always came from a Christian believer
background, and they're going to claim something
else here. He did, but if you think about 2018,
how old was Charlie Kirk? He was a child. He
was a kid. So he was coming out with a different
tone. I mean, he was like straight out of the
Patriot Academy kind of thing, young, wet behind
the ears, figuring it out. And so yeah, he's
definitely morphed over the years more into,
I'm an evangelist who happens to comment on political
issues. We'll continue. So Christianity was not
a prominent feature of Charlie Kirk's conservative
advocacy organization Turning Point USA. But
that did change in 2019, right? He met a California
pastor named Robert McCoy. Yeah, Rob McCoy, who
featured fairly prominently in the memorial service,
is a pastor with an evangelical denomination
called Calvary Chapel. And McCoy is a pastor
of a church called Godspeak outside of Los Angeles,
has been very involved in local politics, and
he actually was the first church to invite Charlie
Kirk to speak there. Godspeak exploded in popularity
during the pandemic because he flouted the church
closure rules. He also introduced Kirk to the
Seven Mountains mandate, which we've spoken about
before, but give us a refresher. So, before we
get to the refresher, do you know Pastor Rob?
I do. Yes. Wonderful. So, I mean, I wasn't even
saved when all this went down. But so he was
really one of the the forerunners of, hey, you
can't shut us down. Yes. There was a handful.
Jack Hibbs was another one. John MacArthur was
another. There were several several Calvary Chapels.
Now, John MacArthur was not Calvary Chapel, but
he was he was a large, large, influential church,
probably the most influential. So, yeah, they
all they all said, we're not closing. Now, the
Seven Mountains, a refresher. Before you say
that, I've just got to call out the nuances here.
Oh, you heard it. Oh, the seven mountains. Oh,
the emphasis on the right, syllables. Wow. That's
Brooke Gladstone. Makes $400 ,000 a year doing
this show. Which she can make all she wants,
but yeah, it's so... Not national public radio.
It's so one -sided public rate But that's why
I listen to it because I want to know what people
are thinking. Yeah, here we go So the the seven
mountain mandate is a concept that comes out
of charismatic evangelical circles It's it's
sometimes framed as a strategy for cultural conquest.
It's also a prophecy that people believe was
revealed by God to a prophet named Lance Wallnau.
And the idea... I think Lance would love being
called a prophet, don't you? I think he'd say,
wow, thank you very much. I didn't know I was
a prophet. It was revealed by God to a prophet
named Lance Wallnau. And the idea is that every
society can be divided up into seven arenas of
cultural influence. education, family, religion,
government, arts and entertainment, media, business,
and commerce. Each of those sectors of society
is imagined as a mountain. And in this prophecy,
the top of those mountains is either controlled
by Satan and the demons or by God and the Christians,
and there's no in -between. And so the mandate
part is for Christians to take over the seven
mountains, to rise to positions of cultural influence,
to try to target those specific areas of influence
in society, and then to let Christian influence
flow down from the tops of the mountain. They'll
use democracy if it works for them, but the mandate,
which they claim is from God, is for Christians
to take over society. Hence this vision of merging
religion and politics that resonated with Kirk.
So while I don't think he's incorrect in his
description, Right. Yeah, there's a lot I agree
with. It drips with, they're going to take over
no matter what, despite democracy, we're going
to go for it. The nuances. Yeah, it's all in
the nuances. Inflections. Because what he's saying
in terms of content, I'm going, yeah, yeah, I'm
in line with that. But the way he's saying, it's
not what you say, it's how you say. So, give
me the Pastor Jimmy version of the seven mountain
mandate. Yeah, I mean the seven mounds education
religion slash faith family business government
Arts and entertainment media. So those are just
all these are this is just a simple way to categorize
culture. That's it Yeah, if if we have a cultural
mandate what we call the apostolic mandate or
the Great Commission is a cultural mandate and
that is to go out and Disciple Jesus said make
disciples of all nations not just one nation
or not a handful of people all every nation.
So as a Christian, I have a mandate, I have orders
from my commanding officer to go and do this.
But you have to categorize things. I mean, in
order for us to even metric something, you have
to say, this is that, you have to define it.
So Lance Wallnau, there were others, Bill Johnson
was another one out of California, Bethel Redding,
and there were many others who landed on these
seven categories and all they are categories
and there's nothing actually real about them.
They're just names to say this is a segment of
society. That's a good point because they make
it sound so cut and dry like here's these defined
places. There's this conspiracy to go after these.
That's exactly what they're trying to present.
There's no secrets here. There are books on this
saying, we've chosen these labels so that we
know what we're shooting at. It's like as a hunter.
When I was growing up, I hunted rabbits, squirrels,
dove, quail, you name it, birds and stuff. You
can't shoot a target that you can't see. You
can't hit a target you can't see. So all this
is is giving labels to categories so you understand
these are the seven mountains of culture. Another
way to say it is these are the seven categories
of culture. It's not that complicated. Do you
Agree with the or what's your that's not a fair
question. What what's your feeling on? It's either
run by God or by the devil well Because that's
pretty black and white the way they the way they
put that Okay, so you've got levels here, I mean
in the most simplistic terms you've got God,
and you do have the devil. The thing about it
is they're not equal foes. You've got gods over
everything. You've got the devil who's just trying
to hang on until he gets cast into the lake of
fire. So he's sort of struggling. So if you take
C .S. Lewis's approach, he wrote this amazing
book called The Screwtape Letters, where it was
just getting into the mind of the dark enemy,
Satan. and say, basically, the old thing that
Paul Harvey did, if I were the devil, remember
that? It's classic. That'd be a great clip to
play. But yeah, I mean, if I were the devil,
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So this is similar.
So yes, at one level, you do have God and you
do have the devil. But at the end of the day,
Jesus gave us authority as believers. We have
an apostolic or a dominion mandate in Genesis
chapter 1 that we're to govern the earth. We're
told that. This is what we're supposed to do.
I created this earth. I created it for you. now
go govern it. Now, if you use that language,
it may mean something different to somebody in
2025 than it did in the Garden of Eden. Can you
see how it scares people when they hear this?
Oh, well, they think about, oh, they're trying
to create a theocracy. And that's not the case.
I can see how someone who doesn't have any context
would see that. But actually, it's not about
creating a theocracy. That's what Augustine did.
That's what Constantine did. Not Augustine, Constantine
did. And we saw where that led. That did not
end well, nor is it continued to go well. So
that's not what we're talking about because we're
talking about in America, freedom of faith, freedom
of religion, whatever your religion is, as long
as you don't kill each other and you're not a
danger to yourself and others. We want and welcome
people of other faiths. But we also understand
there was a dominant religion, a dominant faith,
and that is Christianity. And so while Hillary
thinks we can't return to these silly ideals
that never were, that was a real nice caveat
she added on that. The next part, which is about
Charlie Kirk as a martyr and martyrdom in general,
and things do take a turn here, of course. The
rhetorical frames around martyrdom, they're not
just limited to inspiring a lot of conversions.
They can also spur some real violence. Yeah,
and this is the dual nature of a martyr narrative,
right? On the one hand, people like Stephen are
seen as models in that they do not provoke, they
do not fight back, but instead they accept the
persecution, right? And Jesus had taught his
followers to bless the persecutors, to love their
enemies. So that's the one track. And I think
we saw that in Erica Kirk's declaration of forgiveness.
My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save young
men, just like the one who took his life. That
man. I forgive him. I mean, I don't know a Christian
who was steeped in the teachings of Jesus who
would say that was the wrong choice, right? Jesus
taught us to forgive. Now, I think Stephen Miller
and Donald Trump and the memorial service really
embodied the other side of the martyr narrative.
I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best
for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now
Erica can talk to me and the whole group, and
maybe they can convince me that that's not right,
but I can't stand my opponent. See, I wanted
to believe that in there because President Trump
leaves something open. We have to believe that
he is a new believer. He has certainly said that
he believes God saves him so he can save America.
And that could very well be true. And he says,
I'm not like Erica. I hate my opponent. He doesn't
say opponents. But then after that, he says,
Erica and the group can certainly come and try
to convince me otherwise. I really, that made
me hopeful. Because even I forgot what he had
said. I thought he had said the enemy, but it
was the opponent. And that last bit, I think
that's really quite extraordinary. Let me just
play that again. And I don't want the best for
them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. There's room
there. There's room there. What's your feeling
on that in general? Well, when I saw it roll
out, you know, my first thought was... Please
go back to the teleprompter. Get back on script.
Come on. Cause I mean, we've watched Donald Trump
since, you know, since the early days. His first
go around, every time he'd go off script, it'd
be like, kind of like Biden going off script.
Yeah, that was awesome fun. So, but also if you
watch the video, it's so different hearing it
with no context. when you've watched the whole
service roll out. And he said it in a very tongue
in cheek way. He was grinning. He was kind of
laughing. He was just making, he was being Donald
Trump, being an old New York curmudgeon. I mean,
so when I hear it, it doesn't sound offense.
I wish he hadn't said it, of course, because
my first thought was there's ammo for people
who hate him. Because I like him. I want to protect
him, right? I don't just see him as the president
of the United States. I see him as a new brother
in Christ and I want to help him. I'm for him.
Forget policy. Forget all this stuff. One of
the things that we're commanded in scripture
to do is pray for those who are in leadership.
That's coming up. I've prayed for Joe Biden.
I've prayed for Hillary. After that clip, I'm
really going to pray for Hillary. She needs lots
of prayer. I've prayed for all of them by name.
It's truly. So I'm for Trump, but boy, to hear
him do that. But I saw that I was watching, were
we four or five hours in at this point? Because
this was at the end. So it was probably five
hours in. And in the context, in the tongue and
cheek way he said it, because he was grinning,
he was laughing, he said it like, but he said
it like old Trump just popping off, he would
say. But of course, everybody camps out on it.
And they just go there. They go for the jugular,
so to speak. Well, and again, I just felt that
last bit is like, hey, I'm open. I'm open. Convince
me. Because who's the group? Eric, it's not Turning
Point USA. It's the office of faith. It's all
the people surrounding him. So I pray that that
takes place. Me too, brother. And now we get
into... historical stuff, which is just like,
what are you doing, NPR? When Pope Urban II proclaims
the First Crusade in 1095 CE... So now they're
still on martyrdom and violence. This is the
big one. When Pope Urban II proclaims the First
Crusade in 1095 CE, his rationale for why Christians
need to go and slaughter Muslims and also Jews
was that they have devastated the Kingdom of
God. They are killing... our brothers and sisters,
our fellow Christians in the East, and we need
to go and rescue those Christians. But then again,
we also need to take back the Holy Land. We need
to take back Jerusalem, because it's the city
of Jesus, right? And then there's the story of
Simon of Trent. And yeah, Simon of Trent was
a young man who disappeared in the medieval period,
and the Christians blamed the Jews. I know this
is crazy stuff, but they put it in there, and
I presume they had a reason for it, because I
think the only reason is, hey, Be careful, Christians
can be violent. That's what I'm hearing. They're
building it. The young man who disappeared in
the medieval period, and the Christians blamed
the Jews, and this was part of the blood libel
idea of Jewish communities secretively drinking
the blood of Christian children as part of their
ritual ceremonies. And so the disappearance of
Simon of Trent leads to pogroms and attacks and
becomes part of the conspiracy theory narratives
and the vilification of Jews by Christians, right?
Because a martyr is both a member of the community
who is treasured and valued, but a martyr is
also a symbol that can be wielded for great violence.
It is one of the most potent forces in the Christian
tradition. This is not merely another celebration
of life. that we witnessed in the memorial or
in the collective grieving over Charlie Kirk's
death. This is a step change in the role of the
religious right in American society and not just
in the United States, but around the globe. I
believe this is the devil conjuring up stuff.
Absolutely. And specifically, anti -Semitism,
the Jews, the Jews, Israel killed Charlie, etc.,
etc. They're conjuring this. This to me was pure
enemy that got into this so -called scholar.
I don't know what you want to comment on. Well,
as I'm listening to that, I'm thinking, why did
they make this jump to violence? Where is the
violence coming from right now? From the left.
And you look at where, I mean, you look at all
the Charlie Kirk memorials that have been desecrated,
who were they desecrated by? The left. over and
over and over. Who rode through on a bike yelling
F -U? I mean, who is creating chaos and havoc?
It's not the religious right. This is Jacuz.
You are what you say I am. This is very typical.
But it's dangerous speak. It is. I mean, there
was no reason to do this, and yet they're doing
it. And it just concerns me that, you know, this
is out there because now, and it affects everybody.
Anybody who hears this, you know, oh yeah, it's
the religious right. And already now, it's the
religious right, the religious far right. Which
sounds very extremist. Well, the extremist part
comes next. Oh, okay. Benny Johnson goes on to
say that God establishes the rulers of nations.
In the audience right now, there are rulers of
our land. This is the part where I know non -believers
lose it. And it's understandable that if you
don't believe that God is in control of everything,
then I mean, if you haven't just submitted to
that, then you won't get it. And it sounds kooky.
I can say this as a relatively new believer.
I know how people think about this. Flip the
script. We've been subjected to the last four
years of pure kookiness from the other side,
and yet we're supposed to sit there and drink
their poison and be okay with it. But now when
the pendulum swings and the momentum's the other
way, and we're making declarations just like
they did, and they continue to, but just like
they did, suddenly... We're extremists. We're
violent. We're prone to violence now. That's
what they're saying. And what's interesting,
did you ever see the juxtaposition of the BLM
riots and the Antifa riots juxtaposed to the
memorial of Charlie Kirk saying, this is how
we respond. This is how they respond. I mean,
you could go down the line on a lot of those.
Now, are there going to be occasional guys who
are Now, mind you, I believe if there was ever
a conspiracy in Adam's mind, what we saw recently
with these shootings, the church in the Latter
-day Saints Church. I mean, I'm just going to
say that it's very easy to make people crazy
these days. There's enough pharmaceuticals in
people's systems. There's all kinds of platforms
that people get on. This is not an unthinkable
thing to get people to do the weirdest possible
stuff. veterans are always perceptible to PTSD.
I mean, it's all very... Heartbreaking is the
term. We'll continue with what they think is
crazy. The State Department, the Department of
War, the Department of Justice, the Chief Executive,
God has instituted them. And what does the Apostle
Paul in Romans say about a godly leadership?
Rulers wield the sword. for the protection of
good men and for the terror of evil men. May
we pray that our rulers here, rightfully instituted
and given power by our God, wield the sword for
the terror of evil men in our nation. Well, I
mean, I don't think anybody summarized the dual
martyr narratives better than Benny Johnson in
that service, right? That on the one hand, Charlie
Kirk could be an innocent Stephen, but then,
right, the turn is now the godly government needs
to go after our enemies. And this takes me to
something that the Christian nationalism scholar
Bradley Onishi mentioned in his recap of Kirk's
memorial. He said that some MAGA factions subscribe
to a two kingdoms theology. So, wow. So of course,
We knew Benny Johnson and I think Jack Brasovic
and even Stephen Miller that this was going to
cause misunderstandings. I love doing this podcast
with you because I pray that people who are not
believers listen to it, who may have a different
view of things that they can just hear. how we
view this and not how it's presented because
yeah, that can sound crazy and kooky and dangerous
if you don't know where it's coming from. And
also the presentation, you know, it's like, yeah,
you got to have that crowd of what, how many
thousand eight, 70, 80 ,000. You're a little
fired up. You got a little adrenaline flowing
into that. Yeah, you get into that. So how about
that? So now the two kingdom, have you heard
of two kingdom theology? I want to hear what
they're saying because I'm curious about that.
Buckle up. They believe there's a kingdom of
God. And in that kingdom of God, you are going
to see God who operates according to peace and
justice and love. But there's also the civil
kingdom. When it comes to the political realm,
the civic realm, it's really about a friend,
enemy distinction. It's either you or them. It's
either dominate or be dominated. And when it
comes to the two kingdoms theology, we want a
woman who forgives the man that murder her husband.
And we want a president who's going to hate him
enough to execute him. Let's just stop it right
there. Wow, man. He just, this is, this is a
scholar. He just ran down the hill on that. You
know, it's one thing to take a few steps, but
if you ever start running downhill, Have you
ever done that as a kid? Yeah, and then it ended
badly, didn't it? It does. You end at the bottom,
bruised and broken. Exactly. Covered in dirt.
So I feel like that's what he did, you know.
And this is what happens about commentary that's
going to be negative or you've got an agenda
with your commentary. Clearly. You're going to
take a few steps. You get some momentum and then
you can't stop. And that's what I'm hearing here.
Openly that hate is a way to love God. When we
see a political coalition, built around antipathy,
aggressive politics, castigating people who disagree
with them, fighting with their enemies. When
that names itself as Christian and also embraces
some of the rhetorical styles and vocabulary
of Christianity, it becomes very hard to disentangle
those things. And I think Trump has played this
dual role for American Christians over the last
10 years. Isn't he just playing on the second
string? No, Donald Trump will sometimes mouth
the pieties, especially since the assassination
attempt in Butler, Pennsylvania. God saved me
so that I could save America. Right. That's a
message that a lot of American Christians want
to hear. But that's also not about Jesus. Right.
And so Trump can present himself as a Christian.
but he does not always conform to Christian morality.
And the Christians give him a pass because they
want to say, well, he's the one God has put in
office. He is there to punish our enemies. So
we can say that we love our enemies and celebrate
their demise at Donald Trump's hands. Now, I
thought this was important because I know many
believers, many Christians who are very wary
of President Trump say, well, he hasn't declared,
he doesn't... declared Jesus. And so he's not
real. He's an op. He's not the real deal. And
I'm like, wow, this is hurting us, hurting all
sides, this particular view of President Trump.
Yeah, agreed. Again, this running downhill thing.
I'm hearing this, like, this gathering of men,
but then making these leaps. And this is sequential
in the broadcast. I mean, I took out some non
-seculars, but this is exactly how it went. It's
fascinating because they start off with almost
something that we could go, yeah, I can kind
of see that. But then they make this leap, you
know, 80 feet down the hill instead of another
foot. And it's like, so I'm hearing that. But
again, if you have an agenda, of course you're
going to fabricate a narrative to support what
you want to believe or what you already believe.
I was listening to Josh McPherson talk to Mark
Driscoll on Charlie Kirk's podcast yesterday.
I just heard this clip. I didn't listen to the
whole thing yet, but I just heard this clip.
I like Josh McPherson. Pastor's a big church.
He's young, and they're going back and forth.
Josh was reading a book that talked about some...
This will come back into what we're talking about,
so I want you to hear me out for a sec. So from
basically the 50s, 60s into the 90s, the early
90s, there was a season in American history and
politics and popular culture where it was okay
to talk about your faith. In fact, you couldn't
get elected if you didn't declare your faith.
Right. And celebrities would often get up at
the Grammy, thank God for this. God gave me the
song. Yeah, exactly. I mean, this was popular.
And so it was very trendy and popular and okay
to declare your faith. And then you had a period
through the late 90s, roughly 94 on, and there
were some things that precipitated that, where
faith became neutral. Became the Netherlands,
you know, is this we're not gonna know Switzerland
Switzerland. Thank you. My bad Thank you for
the correction somebody who lived there and grew
up. So Switzerland, you know, we're not gonna
you know We're not gonna go either way and it
was still okay to talk about it But it was okay
not to talk about it and those in politics didn't
have to declare I mean it just there was a shift
of ambivalence so then you move into up to 2014
And we see another shift. This shift now goes
to, don't you, no, not 2014, up till recently.
You don't talk about your faith. In fact, now
we are the enemy. It's scary. It's scary for
people. It's become a scary thing to talk about
your faith. If you're an actor, celebrity, you're
in the Hollywood, you know, the circle, you know,
don't you dare talk about your faith. But not
even that. Pastor Jimmy, when I came out on Joe
Rogan and as I continued to profess my faith
in my regular conversation, more and more people
who I've known, not personally, but personally
through email and feedback on my podcast, now
they're coming out and they're saying, hey, I
feel more comfortable. So it's not just celebrities,
it's normal everyday people and people who I've
known for seven years. Hey, by the way, brother,
just if you have any questions about Latter -day
Saints, I've been a card carrying member all
my life. Didn't even know the guy was a believer
at all. Right. You know, this is, this is amazing
things that are happening. So it's not just Hollywood.
Of course, Hollywood drives it and, you know,
media. That's just one mountain I was talking
about. But you can go down in politics, you can
go anything. So now we have this, this, you know,
Trump gets reelected. in his inaugural speech
and you captured that clip beautifully and you
played on the Godcaster. We will not forget our
country, we will not forget our constitution,
and we will not forget our God. And you added
a nice echo to that little reverb. That's actually,
that's how it was recorded. No way! That was
on there? That was literally the way it was.
That's the way I have it recorded, yeah. That's
a bit cooler. I mean, that's awesome. So he green
-lighted faith. Yes, yes. But now, you know,
but it's been a war. I mean, it's People are
coming out. But what's happening is we're getting
this division. We're getting a chasm between
the two worlds. This is really interesting because
you say 1994. When was Bill Clinton president?
I don't remember. 92 to 2000. Wow, that's making
sense. And Bill Clinton, the president... I mean,
we know what he stood for. Right. He made certain
sexual acts not sex anymore. Exactly. Also, 1994
is just when the internet started to blast through
to homes everywhere, dial -up, we could get on
the internet. These two things happen concurrently.
Interesting. You got 9 -1 -1, 2001. That's right.
You've got George W., who was just elected, and
then he's coming out claiming to be a card -carrying
Christian. Looking back on things, I'm beginning
to think otherwise. So you have these shifts
that happened. There are these seasons and these
movements. Well, then you've got JD Vance just
a day or two ago on a podcast straight up saying,
I will never be quiet about my faith again. I
will never shut up about my faith. I will honor
my God. I'll honor Jesus and I'll honor my friend
Charlie by not being. another level. And you're
seeing this, people that are not just motivated,
they are inspired. And now we're moving into
a new season. Now we know what happens when that
happens. Well, the enemy starts to strike, try
to do undermine, do anything he can. NPR, NPR,
NPR. Hillary coming out. Hey, let me remind you
about these people. The middle management comes
out, which who are just middle management. They're
nothing, nothing. You know, it's like they're
not even the manager of the restaurant, you know.
I heard Josh Howerton, he pastors a very large
church, Lake Point, 27 ,000 people in Rockwall,
Texas, right outside of Dallas. And he was on
with Josh McPherson and several other guys. Oh,
I saw this. You sent me this clip. Yeah, it was
fantastic. Super good. These guys are amazing
young men. They're all pretty young, aren't they?
They're sharp. Yeah. 40s. It's next -gen leaders
coming up. They all kind of look like you, Pastor
Jimmy. They're all buff. You know, they got their
muscles out. They do not have gray hair. These
guys, they're young. With time, with time. It's
coming, it's coming. I think guys like you and
I don't have many, Pastor Darren, Tyler, I mean,
you've been a great example for all of these
new pastors. I mean, I really love seeing it.
I'm seeing pastors now, you know, we got, who's
the one in, there's another bridge, the bridge.
There's another church in like a little east
of Fredericksburg, young pastor, I'm forgetting
the name of the town. They also, they have a
Godcaster as well. And he's got a beard, you
know, he's like drives his truck. And this is
like, I love the, this is, this was when I, the
first time in Austin, I went to Austin stone
church and Tina and I had just been dating and
she was kind of interested. And I remember going
there, I was, You know, I was being kind, like,
this is a date. OK, so I'd just done my show,
so I was tired. And I'm like, OK, everything
sounds like you two. And the guys are wearing
dockers. I'm like, you know. The worship team,
a .k .a. The band. Yeah. But they were, you know,
wearing docker pants and, you know, the button
down shirt. And it's it's different now. And
I think, you know, pastors like you really brought
up a whole new generation, which I'm just super
excited to see. Appreciate that. There seems
to be a generation now that are much more real
down to earth. Relatable. They're relatable.
They're not polished and typical briefcase short
hair and dockers, just like you said. I had my
fair share of dockers back in the day. I'm sure
you did. I'm sure you did. I'm not real proud
of that, but that was the early days. Nothing
against dockers. When you're young, you're trying
to fit in, right? No, I never wore dockers. I
was never a dockers kind of guy, but still not.
But I love what's happening with this next generation.
These guys are talking about what's happening
in the culture. And they're doing some great
deconstruction of some of these clips you just
played, especially the one with Hillary. But
they're bringing something fresh to the table.
And they're saying, just like JD Van, we will
not apologize for who we are. And this is catching
a lot of traction right now. But it's not because
we're trying to beat somebody. Right. There's
only one enemy that's truly an enemy. And I just
got totally roasted on social media. I mean,
my my thing went, you know, you now have forty
four thousand views. Well, that's all evil, mean
people sending it to each other and bots and
then. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Some ugly stuff. But. But
there's a sense where there's no longer a fear
of this, because the enemy isn't a person. And
the reason I got castigated is because I used
the word enemy, the enemy. So people who don't
know anything about Christianity, they thought
I was talking about the left. They thought I
was talking about people. Which is probably what
most people would think. Here's my thank you
to 44 ,000 people who slice and dice me on social
media. is, oh, I need to clarify my terms a little
bit. Yes. If we're going to send this stuff out
to the worldwide web, I need to clarify terms
a little bit. Wow, you just dated yourself by
saying worldwide web, brother. That's like, hello,
1995, want this term back. It's like saying the
YouTube. The YouTube. Well, this is a good point,
because it does, I mean, even as a newbie, you're
like, the enemy, the enemy. It took me not long,
obviously, but it took me a little bit. It's
like, OK, who is the enemy? What is the enemy?
Yeah. It is a clarification in terms. It really
is. Lucifer. So I'm going to be more clear about
that. Not because I don't want to be slice and
dice in media. It's going to happen anyway because
of where I stand. But if I'm going to be slice
and dice, I want it to be with clarity. I wasn't
talking about people. I wasn't talking about
a political movement. I was talking about the
very real enemy of our souls, the devil. Do you
ever feel like when you post on Instagram, Facebook,
that's the main thing. Do you think it really
makes a difference? Is it just reaffirming people
who already believe? Do you think you win any
souls? Does the discipleship online really work?
I think it builds up those who are already in
your persuasion. The algos are going to make
sure that happens, right? It's going to land
unless you boost, which that's kind of bypasses
some things because you pay for it. You pay for
it. You pay to get out into other arenas outside
the algo. And my daughter who runs our media,
she'll boost our reels. they'll end up in places
they normally wouldn't. That's where we get the,
you're a pig. You're going to hell. I hope you
burn in hell. I'll never go to church. You're
the reason I won't go to church. There's one
thing we know. We know you're not going to hell.
I'm pretty cool on that. Yeah, I'm all good there.
Here's what's fun about getting that kind of
stuff. You've talked about this too, is it gives
me a name to pray for. Oh yeah, a lot of them.
This guy, because it's all their names, especially
on Facebook, you just see who they are. All right,
Mr. Rodriguez, I'm going to pray for you. All
right, Mr. Schnell, I'm going to pray for you.
Thank you. Now, have a target. Just pray for
me. early on to reply saying, I'm going to pray
for you. Big mistake. You might as well just
throw gasoline on the fire. Like, I'm going to
pray for you, man. That will come back a million
times like, oh, I prayed for you. You know, you
can even, I'm doing the voice just because I
can hear it in text. So we don't have any people
enemies. And this is the thing about, we're not
trying to create a theocracy where it's us and
them. That's the mistake. But I can see if you
heard Benny Johnson's speech or pro -Civic, either
of those guys, they were like - Or Stephen Miller.
Or Stephen Miller, like, we're ready to go. I
was like, whoa, whoa, damn boy. But you're always
going to have that on all sides. You're going
to have your guys who are ready to go fight.
But it's just rhetoric. I'm sad. That's not the
stuff I wanted to hear in the memorial. I want
to hear, hey, let's get back to Charlie. Well,
there was six hours of other stuff. Yeah, of
wonderful, amazing, God -honoring, Charlie -honoring,
young life, well -lived. But of course, people
or critics are going to jump on the stuff, and
it's okay. To me, it just is part and parcel
of what we do here. But it's sad that it's become
such a us versus them. My heart, I don't have
enemies. I just don't. I have one. But the people
that sit on another side of the aisle, they are
not my enemies. And when they try to make it
personal, I just don't let it be personal. So
what can we give believers who want what advice,
what tips and tricks? who want to speak boldly
about their faith, who don't want to be unashamed
of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And they're going
to be doing this within the realm of people who
are here. This is their media diet. This is what
they're hearing. Should we just shut up? Or can
we say things? How do we approach it? Any thoughts?
It's like I'm interviewing you. What's going
on here? This is actually me with real questions.
This is actual questions that I have. Let me
start with just a scripture here, and it comes
out of Proverbs 15 .1, and it's really simple.
It says, a soft word turns away wrath. And I've
learned because, you know, when I start getting
all that stuff, my first response is, Oh, well,
where's my keyboard? Even you, even you. Oh man,
it's a human thing, right? Because it hurts.
If it doesn't hurt, I don't ever want to get
to where things don't hurt anymore. I don't want
to get that hard. I don't want my skin to get
that thick. It's kind of like the guy saying,
I don't have any friends in the church. I'm like,
dude, you don't have a church. I don't know what
you have. You get some people meeting, but it's
not the Church of Jesus Christ. It's not the
faith community, a spiritual family, but I apply
that thing to anything. I don't ever want to
get that hard where it just rolls off my back.
That's when you cease to feel. When you cease
to feel, you cease to miss the human condition.
There are reasons why people are angry. Let's
get a little deeper. Let's go a little behind
the veil and go, okay, what's creating that response?
Why is that person so, why does he suddenly declare,
I'm going to hell. I'm the reason they'll never
go back to church. And, you know, you're a pig,
you know, just crazy stuff. What's behind that?
Frustration, fear, pain, you know, trauma. I
mean, you go down a list. And no way to deal
with it. No way to deal with it the way I certainly,
you know, I... talk to God, I talk to Jesus,
I give it to God, like, got to give you this
God, I just got to get this off my chest. So
if you're hurting, crushed, mad, and then you
see some guy standing in a pulpit with a microphone
and he's joyful, confident, standing and believing,
you know, it made it just sounds arrogant. It
sounds like, I remember when I was at a really
down place and I had friends that were doing
great and there was a part of me Even as a Christian,
I was like, man, I just wish they wouldn't tell
me how great they're doing so much. I'd kill
it. You know what I mean? The human side of you
just goes, man, well then what's wrong with me?
So there's so many human dynamics that play into
this. Besides spiritual, there's that. Born into
a world of war, John Eldridge. Besides all that,
there's the human condition of people are hurting
and they're looking for things to hang it on.
Where's a hook? Oh, you're a hook, Adam Curry,
because you call yourself a Jesus freak. Well,
let me tell you about those Zionist masochists.
They're taking over the world. Here's a hook.
It's so true. People just jump to these things,
and they're looking for people to be mad at.
They're looking for a face. And we're putting
ours out there, right? We're putting our voice
out there. Putting our face out there. I'm okay
with it. Hang in on me. I'm okay. You're right.
As long as I got your name. I can do something
for you. So there we go. So you asked a really
good question. What can people do, you know,
to come out of the closet, so to speak, to come
out of the darkness into the light. First of
all, don't go out looking for fights. I think
what's happened is so many people I know, and
I'm not going to name any organizations that
I'm clearly good friends with and what, but,
but there is a sense where I see some friends
of mine going on social media, posting their
victories. Here we were at the school board meeting
down here and so on this place place boy We showed
them and we won and and I'm like guys Is that
the point to win? What does winning mean? Yeah,
if we don't win a human heart, have we really
won anything? You know, maybe we move the needle
on Getting some books out of school and that's
not a bad. I'm not disparaging that but that's
not the win the win is shifting culture, shifting
hearts, to embrace not only Jesus, but the fruit
of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness,
goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self -control.
Patience and self -control are the big ones for
me. All of those. All of those. All of the above.
Those nine fruit of the Spirit. So I think what's
tempting to do when you're ready to come out,
you want to come out big. We tend to like to
grandstand things. And then we post it. We slash
it. Yeah, we throw it on IG. Whatever. Here's
my victory. And I've been watching this, and
you're helping me do this, whether you intend
to or not. Just the more we talk about it, I'm
backing away from it. I'm stepping back. And
Eddie even made a comment like, wow, you didn't
even post anything about our retreat online.
I go, why should I? Whose business is it? We
had a great retreat. It was amazing. But you
know, why would I feel the need to throw that
out there? To float it? I personally believe
that's all prideful. It's all pridefulness. It
can be. Because what are you doing it for? What
are you actually doing? I mean, is it to confirm
to the staff who see that? You confirm that.
They'll know. You have another staff meeting
this week. Everyone will agree. I wrote a DG
about them. how much I love them and appreciate
and value, but having to like take a bunch of
pictures, make sure I get photo ops with all
my friends. It's all idolatry, brother. That's
the way I see it. You're messing me up in a good
way because I'm beginning to look beyond just
the initial photo of why. So when it comes to
coming out, I don't think social media is the
platform. I got to tell you a story which just
came to mind. In the very, very early days of
weblogs, this is the precursor to social media
and news feeds, blogs. It was even before they
were called blogs. And I was one of the early
adopters. We're talking 2002, 2003. And I was
living, I think I was living in Belgium at the
time. And I might have even had a reality show.
So it was kind of a part of, you know, I'm going
to post stuff about what I'm doing. And there
were two bosses at the television radio company
that I'd really got my first start at, at Veronica
Television and Radio. And my good friend Lex,
who just turned 80, went to his birthday. And
the other guy was a guy named Rob, Rob Out, funny
enough. And he passed away. And he sent me, I
think we had text at the time, he sent me a text
message, hey, Rob Out just passed away. And I
went ahead and put it on my blog. But that wasn't
the family's wish. And I remember him calling
me up and said, I don't understand this necessity
to put your life and everything. He was mad.
Put your life and everything out there on the
internet. What's the point? Wow. And that just
came to mind because I remember thinking, yeah,
what was the point? That was me being breaking
news. It was all. All ego at that point. And
that has stuck with me for so long. And of course,
now the medium is the message. The whole point
is look at me. Look at how awesome my life is.
It seems like it's not a God thing. Brother,
my heart's there with you. And man, that had
to be painful when you got the reality that...
Particularly from him. Because you care about
these people. And also, he was like my dad. He
was in a way a surrogate father for me. He was
scolding me correctly. And I was like, I'm a
grown man. What am I doing? What was that about?
So there you go. When we talk about... having
your voice heard or being vocal, starting to
come get back in the public square. The question
is, why are you doing it? Are you doing it because
everybody else is doing it? Because you think
about it, we get caught up in waves. We get caught
up in movements. We get caught up in trends.
And am I doing, is this just another TikTok dance
video of, you know, you know, middle America
wife, you know, doing her little dance, you know,
to a Chico, you know, Chico outfit, you know?
I mean, it just, it's like, Or am I coming out,
not on social media, but showing up to a school
board meeting? It's one thing to just come on
and give your opinion about everything. It's
way different to actually show up at a school
board meeting, not looking for a fight. But how
about lacing the atmosphere with the Word of
God and prayer? I'm not saying out loud, make
yourself look weird. You can pray with your eyes
open. You don't have to look weird when you're
praying. where you're actually inviting and invoking
the presence of God into that space. And it works.
It really works. And doing really something crazy
like going up and introducing yourself to school
board members as an ally instead of an adversary.
And I think some of the things that I'm seeing
of people I love and care about is that they're
adversarial from the get -go. Now mind you they're
getting training all day long online the training
is there every single day the training to be
adversarial to be prideful to be Make sure you
post your pictures of your victory Yeah, and
and I get it because when we win we want other
people to cheer and we want we're excited about
it By the way, I stumble over this all the time
myself. I'm not like mr. Perfect over here far
from it. I get it. I get it I've had opportunities
to get pictures with famous people, and I don't.
I just don't. I've just stopped it. This is the
worst, and I'm susceptible to it as well. Celebrity
dies. Look, here's me with that dead celebrity
in 1987. Why am I doing this? It's crazy. I think
there's points where you're like, I really want
to eulogize this guy. And there's a good side
to that. So I don't want to just sound like I'm
just throwing buckets of cold water on everybody.
But I think we need to think about these things.
So your question was, how do we come out? And
I just think that's not the way. I've seen that
work go badly for friends of mine who came out
too quickly with a victory and it turned on them.
because they posted it on public online. I can
name names, but I want to protect my friends.
And the guilty. And both, yes. So anyway, come
out by showing up. There you go. Come out by
attending. a meeting, a school board meeting.
Go to a city council meeting. Go to the chamber
of commerce meetings, all kinds of stuff. County
commissioner meetings are fascinating, actually.
Those are interesting. Those are very interesting.
There's a lot of stuff happening there. Yeah.
I mean, but people don't even think about it.
You know, there's library committees. There's
all kinds of things that you can do. I think
the thing I would try to resist is getting in
a gaggle of people, like on a text chain and
just constantly revving each other up. About
the conspiracies that we just read, that awesome
scripture. This is a big deal. It is. A lot of
that, a lot of that. I just go silent. I'm on
a few, even with just a few people and I just
go silent and I just let it pass. I don't jump
in. It takes people down and what it does, it
gives, like we were listening to those, was it
NPR? NPR, yeah. Listening to them and what we
do is we give them ammo with this rhetoric. With
this dark combative river rhetoric. Yeah You
know the most classy athletes ever played sports
with were the quiet ones. Mm -hmm. He would just
show up No flash no victory dance, but they'd
kick your butt on the ball field Yeah, and then
they'd come over and help you up and it's all
any gun. I remember the name It's always the
people who speak quietly. Yes infrequently who
get the most attention to what they're saying.
Yes Yes. And I think we should leave it there.
We ended up back at social media. You notice
this seems to be a common theme. Because we see
the danger. We see the temptation, the danger,
and the nonsensical nature of it. It just doesn't
necessarily help. It reveals our flesh. It reveals
where we're weak, not where we're strong. And
where we're strong is we're supposed to bless
our enemies. We're not supposed to curse them.
We're supposed to bless them. That isn't popular
right now. That would not go over well in some
of my circles. It's right there in the book.
It's right there in the book. Let's bring out
the book. This is a conversation you and I would
have had in a restaurant at your house, at my
house. I want everyone to know that we enjoy
this. I hope you enjoyed listening to it. We
enjoy it even more because we're uninterrupted.
There's an on -air light outside your door, which
people seem to respect. We didn't get set at
opposite ends of the table. Exactly. In a big
group. Brother, thank you so much. I really appreciate
it. Love you too, brother. We will be back hopefully
next week. We get to do this, everybody.