We need to have a conversation about the fact
that the hobby is not healthy for some. Breaking,
ripping packs incessantly. Some people get addicted.
Some people take it many steps too far. So what
needs to be done? What's the responsibility upon
breakers, upon card shop owners, upon platform
operators to help collectors who may be are taking
things beyond where they should. Well, there's
one group that has started and set out to help.
It's Collectors MD and their founder, Alyx Effron,
is coming on the show today to talk about the
challenges that he sees in the hobby and how
he and his Collectors MD group are trying to make
the hobby safer for everybody who participates.
It's pretty thought -provoking. And as the owner
of a company that does a lot of breaking ourselves,
after talking with Alyx, I've decided to make
some changes to how Cards HQ will approach breaking.
We're going to get into that in the interview
today. Please welcome Alyx and Collectors MD to
the Geoff Wilson Show. Alyx, welcome to the show.
You are on a mission, a self -described mission
to make the hobby healthier for everybody who
participates. What is that vision? What does
that look like to you? Yeah, Geoff, thanks so
much. Thanks so much for having me on. Really
appreciate the opportunity. When I think about
breaking and sports collecting and how it should
look, I don't think the answer is necessarily
to shut it down or to cancel anything. Breaking
can be and should be fun. It can be social. It
can bring people together in really cool and
unique ways. But right now, a lot of the structure
sort of leans heavily into gambling mechanics,
right? We're seeing a lot of high risk, low odds,
and marketing plays off people's FOMO, right?
So what I'd like to see is a shift towards something
that's a bit more transparent, more responsible,
and ultimately more community driven. So imagine
if you buy into a break and you actually know
your odds, right? Imagine tools that let you
do things like set limits, step away if you need
a break or a timeout, or potentially even self
-exclude if things start to get really unhealthy,
just like other industries that already are regulated.
Think gambling, day trading, things like that.
That doesn't necessarily kill the fun. All it
does is it just protects the people who need
it. And at the same time, Breakers could focus
less on running things like repacks and hit parades
and more on creating real connection, celebrating
the stories behind cards, the nostalgia, the
reason we collect in the first place. And honestly,
we need to think about the kids and the next
generation. A 12 -year -old shouldn't be conditioned
into gambling -like behaviors just because they
love sports. There's a way to make this hobby
exciting without preying on that. So it's all
about fairness, integrity, accountability. You
know, none of these shady repacks, none of these
loaded boxes, no smoking mirrors. If this really
is about sports and collecting and the purity
of the hobby, then trust and community have to
come first. And so that's the vision. At the
end of the day, you know, it's simple. Breaking
and collecting should feel like a celebration,
not a trap. It should feel like passion, not
compulsion. I want to get into your story in
a minute about kind of what led you on this mission
and also talk about Collectors MD and what you
are trying to do to solve some of these challenges
that you see in the sports card hobby. But let
me first ask, how big of a problem do you see
this as being currently? Like, is this just a
few people who take breaking a little too far?
Or do you think this is more of a widespread
issue that's not really being talked about very
much? Yeah, I think it's the latter. gone unchecked
for far too long. It's a conversation that people
have been having behind the scenes. You know,
you see it pop up here and there, whether that
be on a YouTube video or in a Reddit feed or
a Facebook group, but nobody has ever really
done anything about it until now. Collectors MD
is here to help the hobby. evolve for the better.
And so, yeah, it's a vast issue that we're seeing
across the board. People don't even realize that
there's an issue or maybe that they have a problem
or that they're facing challenges quite often
until it's too late. And we're seeing more and
more of that during our weekly peer support meetings
when people come in and they just look like a
deer in the headlights that just got hit by a
truck and didn't see it coming. The sports card
hobby, I mean, going all the way back to the
1950s when Topps first started producing packs
of cards. And even prior to that, when other
companies produced packs of cards, there's always
been this kind of chase. mystery element to sports
cards, right? If you were to buy a pack of cards
in the 50s or the 60s or the 70s or all the way
through the year 2025, there's that element of
I'm opening the pack. I don't know what's inside.
I'm hoping to find my favorite player or I'm
hoping to find the most valuable card that I
could possibly find. It's exciting. It's a rush.
you used the gambling word earlier. That's a
word that a lot of people in the industry don't
like to use, right? Because trying to kind of
separate it away from that. Why do you feel like
what we're facing today, in your opinion, is
that much different than what the whole history
of the industry has been built on for the last
70 plus years? Yeah, Geoff, you bring up a really
great point. There's always been a chase element
in collecting in the hobby, and that's part of
what makes it so exciting for some people, right?
Even back to the 50s, the 60s, the junk wax era,
people have always been chasing certain rookies,
certain players, certain sets, certain subsets.
The difference is that the chase used to feel
like a bonus, not the entire point, right? You'd
rip packs. You'd build sets. Maybe you'd trade
with friends. Kids used to put cards in the spokes
of their bicycle wheels. They didn't necessarily
care about the condition, which is why, obviously,
highly graded cards that are coveted from the
50s and 60s and even before that are so scarce,
right? But every once in a while, you might hit
something special. That was a moment that was
pure and memorable and something that people
really appreciated. Now, the whole industry has
just been engineered around the chase. Everything
is about short prints, the low number parallels,
the case hits, the one of ones. Instead of collecting
being about building something meaningful, it's
really turned into this. constant slot machine
pull where if you don't hit, you feel like you've
lost. And that shift from cards being about connection
and completion to cards being about sort of gambling,
I'll use the G word again, gambling style odds
is what has changed the most. So it's not that
chasing is inherently bad. It's that it's been
amplified to the point where the hobby itself
is just built around it. And when the only story
being told is about comps and hits, and highlight
reels it pulls people into cycles that can be
really really hard to get out of and Alyx i i
definitely think there's some truth to what you're
saying but to a degree isn't this just how the
world has shifted in general i mean people used
to listen to the you know complete albums of
songs all the time and now you know now people
just pick one song of an album out and listen
to it on on spotify right like people used to
watch sit down and watch entire games, entire
football games uninterrupted. Now people are,
they're on their phones, the game's kind of on,
they're catching highlights on YouTube shorts.
They're watching, you know, they're watching
games and little 30 second highlight clips instead
of really sitting there and kind of embracing
the whole, you know, the whole experience. Social
media, you know, has kind of pushed us forward
into this like kind of instant gratification
type of mindset, quick attention spans. So isn't
the way that the hobby has evolved somewhat symbolic
of kind of what consumers want in the year 2025?
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. It's not
just the hobby that's shifted. It's absolutely
the culture at large. Everywhere you look, like
you said, the world has just gotten more digital.
It's honestly gotten more chase -oriented across
the board. Social media runs on things like dopamine
hits. Things like likes, views, quick bursts
of validation, right? Even video games have turned
into microtransaction machines where the goal
isn't just to play the game, right? People are
ripping packs on games like NBA 2K. You have
things like skins and loot boxes in popular games
like Fortnite. Even shopping is gamified now
to an extent. Things like flash sales, drops,
and countdowns. So what happened in collecting
is really just a reflection of this bigger trend
that we're seeing in the world, like you said.
The difference, though, is that this hobby has
always carried a deeper emotional weight, right?
Cards and memorabilia just aren't just products
to a lot of people. They tie us back to sports,
to childhood, to community. And that's why it
just it hits harder. when the chase starts to
take over in the hobby. It's not just another
app on your phone. It's something we grew up
with. It's something that used to feel pure,
something that a lot of us just really, really
love and genuinely care about. And so the world
shifted toward the hit being the whole story,
and the hobby followed right along. And the question
is, do we accept that as the new norm, or do
we carve out space for something different, something
that maybe keeps the magic but dials back sort
of that manipulation that we're seeing. Right.
And I know a lot of your platform, kind of what
you do, how you help people out, a lot of that
focuses on breaking, especially, right? Because
breaking, I think, in your opinion, is what brings...
Maybe it heightens the elements of what can,
that chase mindset, that instant gratification
culture, breaking in particular is kind of maybe
oriented in such a way to heighten that mindset.
And for some people, it sounds like from the
experience you've had talking to people, for
some people that can create a real challenge.
Yeah, 100%. And I do want to bring something
off, Geoff, that's really important when it comes
to what we're doing with Collectors MD. And so,
you know, a lot of people hear Collectors MD or
hear about Collectors MD and they just assume
or they think it's only about sports cards and
breaking. It started in that space for sure,
you know, as somebody who has gone through the
ringer, both with gambling and with breaking
and, you know, overspending. But it's really
about compulsive collecting and spending behaviors
across the board. So I'm really glad that you
brought up sort of this larger scale vision that
that's at play here. What we're doing applies
to all. types of verticals, sneakers. Obviously,
you have TCG, like Pokemon and Magic and all
of these other sort of non -sports cultures,
subcultures that are becoming more and more popular
within the hobby space, Disney. You got Marvel.
They just announced Toy Story, right? But beyond
just cards, I mentioned sneakers. You have memorabilia.
You have comics, even luxury items like watches
and handbags. All of these communities wrestle
with this same underlying pattern, right? The
thrill of the chase, the fear of missing out,
the endless cycle of upgrades and just one more.
The items might look different, but the psychology
is almost identical. So when we talk about Collectors MD,
we're not building some niche corner for sports
card guys. We're building a movement for collectors
everywhere. The mission is about helping people
step back from the unhealthy cycles, reconnect
with the joy of what they love, no matter what
that is, and create a culture where collecting
is intentional rather than compulsive. So it's
bigger than cars. It's bigger than breaking.
It's about how we engage with anything that can
turn into a chase. And tell me more about Collectors MD.
What is the organization? What is the scope of
what you're doing right now? How many people
are you serving, et cetera? Yeah. So Collectors MD
is a support -driven movement helping collectors
navigate the line between passion and compulsion.
We run peer support groups. We have a daily group
chat. We have a Discord. But we also publish
daily content. We have two content series. One
is called Daily Reflection. The other is called
Collector Spotlight. And we also have three podcasts.
We have The Collector's Compass behind the breaks
and Collectors MD features. We also partner with
mental health professionals and organizations
and advocate for guardrails in the hobby. So
again, the goal isn't to take away the fun. It's
to make sure people can collect with intention
and not compulsion. And if somebody out there
is, is kind of interested in getting involved
in this? How do they do that? Is there a cost?
How does it work? How many people have gotten
involved in this? Yeah, absolutely. So if you're
interested in getting involved, just go to collectorsmd
.com. We have a signup page for our weekly peer
support meetings. You can also sign up for our
daily group chat, which is really just an SMS
group chat. If that's a little bit too intimate
for you, we have Discord as an alternative. It's
completely free. We are hosting our 20th consecutive
meeting tomorrow, September 10th, which is a
major milestone for Collectors MD and something
I'm really proud of. We're seeing anywhere from
10 to 20. I think the most people we had in a
meeting was around 25. And they're an hour long.
People come, they listen, they share, they get
things off their chest that maybe they've been
sitting with in silence. That's a huge part.
of Collectors MD and what we're seeing. So many
people have been struggling alone and in isolation,
right? Maybe they're scared to admit that they
have a problem. Maybe they don't realize they
have a problem. But Collectors MD creates a sense
of awareness. It gives the people the opportunity
to take a step back, self -reflect and think
to themselves, hey, maybe I don't necessarily
have a problem. But I want to get behind this
movement or I want to start collecting with intention
before things start to spiral, before it gets
too late. And maybe it's not you at all. It could
be a friend. It could be a loved one. It could
be somebody you know. And you might just want
to learn more so that you can help continue spreading
awareness and spreading this message. So we have
a sign -up page on CollectorsMB .com. Very simple.
You fill out a few items and from there we add
you to the either group chat and or the calendar
invite for the weekly meeting. You can also DM
us on Instagram and I'm happy to talk to you
one -on -one and discuss ways that you can get
involved. We have a lot of folks that are contributing
to our daily reflection, which again, that's...
One of our franchises, we've published a daily
reflection every single day since we launched
on March 25th of this year. A lot of those reflections
have been published by, well, they're published
by me, but they've been written by a handful
of members of our community, which is really,
really awesome. People really enjoy the opportunity
to be able to sort of share their thoughts, share
their feelings in the form of a journal entry.
And so that's been really, really amazing. Um,
and collector spotlight as well. We're featuring
people on a monthly basis who collect with passion,
purity, intention. Um, we're on, I think our
fourth or fifth, we'll be highlighting a collector
this month for September this week, actually.
Uh, so, so be on the lookout for that. So, you
know, ultimately it's Collectors MD isn't just,
um, you know, a recovery program like, uh, gamblers
anonymous or AA or NA. We're a full fledged,
movement, with content, with podcasts, with partnerships.
We're, like you mentioned, doing sort of the
podcast circuit here to get as many folks educated
as we possibly can so that people understand
what we're doing and why what we're doing is
so incredibly important to the hobby. So you've
obviously taken it on your shoulders to create
this group. And I want to hear more about your
story in a minute, what led up to this. What
do you think the other players in the industry
should be doing to provide support and to maybe
curve some of the issues? So let's start with
breakers here at Cards HQ. We do breaking. We've
got breaking channels. We're on the popular breaking
apps. what could a breaker do, in your opinion,
to help either build awareness for what you're
doing or to help their customers have a better
breaking experience? Yeah, that's a great question.
I want to take a step back for a moment and just
go back to the gambling industry one more time.
When you see a commercial or an ad for a company
like DraftKings or FanDuel, What do you generally
see in terms of messaging along with the ad?
I assume you're referring to the end where they're
like, if you have a gambling problem, here's
a phone number for you to call, take a timeout.
You see that in casinos, at the ATM machines,
at the cashier cage, that type of thing as well.
Exactly. It's subtle but impactful. Responsible
gaming messaging. It exists in other industries,
but it does not exist in the hobby. And it's
not like... you know, the end of the world for
a breaker or a card shop to promote that sort
of awareness. You know, quite frankly, I'm surprised
it's taken this long for folks to start talking
about it, given what we've seen unravel across
the board. And so what I think would be really
incredible and impactful would be some responsible
gaming, maybe responsible ripping, responsible
collecting, you know, the verbiage we can play
with. but some sort of messaging that can basically
identify or acknowledge that there is something
deeper at play here for a lot of people. And
if those people need help, there is a resource
for you and maybe direct them to Collectors MD,
similar to how you might direct an individual
to 1 -800 -GAMBLER on a gambling ad. So I think
just like subtle messaging layered into the ecosystem,
whether that be a live stream or a highlight
reel or a TikTok, I think would be incredibly
helpful, incredibly impactful. Again, just having
the conversation, looking out for your customer.
We see this more and more, and I'm not calling
anybody out or saying that one breaker does it
better or worse than another. But quite often
we see, especially on these major platforms like
Whatnot and Fanatics Live, are these breaks happening
and just a massive churn. There's so much turnover.
Somebody comes in, they might spend a couple
thousand dollars in one sitting. They leave,
the breaker doesn't care. He's just going to,
you know. push the next break and look for that
next customer to target. And so it's just a matter
of accountability, looking out for your customers,
making sure that people are okay. It's not necessarily
the breaker's responsibility to do that, but
if we can bake in tools and resources to allow
these individuals to be able to maybe curb the
behavior a little bit if things start to spiral,
I think that would just go such a long way. Things
very simple, things like cool -off periods, putting
yourself in time out if needed, deposit limits,
whether that be daily, weekly, or monthly. Again,
just messaging around responsible ripping, responsible
collecting. And ultimately, if you start to realize
you have a problem, here is a place you can go.
a whole community that will have your back. You
do not have to go through whatever challenge
you're facing alone and in isolation. That's
not the answer. I like it, Alyx. And you know
what? If it sounds like not a lot or no breakers
have done this before, let's take the lead on
this here at Cards HQ. I'd like to, let's work
together and figure out how we can put responsible
ripping. in within our breaks at Cards HQ and
point people your direction. Because I think
what you're doing is important. And I do think
that there are times when people come into breaks
and they probably go a little too crazy. And
I think as a breaker... One thing we can do is
build awareness for your organization and let
people know, hey, it's okay to take a time out.
And if you're taking things a little too far,
here's a group that can help you. I think that
that's a very reasonable ask of breakers to try
to do something like that. Well, Geoff, thank
you so much for that. I wasn't expecting that.
That really means the world that you see it and
that you'd be willing to acknowledge a lot of
the things that we're talking about and saying.
So absolutely, let's have that conversation.
Let's get strategic around ways that we can,
you know, ultimately protect your customers,
your consumers. You clearly care about them.
And, you know, that's so important in this hobby.
So, yeah, doors open. We can absolutely continue
the conversation after the show. Perfect. What
role do you think the actual... like the app
providers the platforms you know uh we've got
you know hey you know people are probably laughing
a little bit right now because arena club is
a sponsor of this show and and you know obviously
arena club you know wants you to to rip the rip
the packs and rip the packs and whatnot and who
is a sponsor of you know what we do at sports
card investor fanatics live who we've got a good
relationship with there's other obviously other
platforms as well that are oriented around you
know, get into the breaks and or buy singles
and it's fast auctions. eBay's got eBay live
now with sudden death. It's doing the same thing,
right? Like there's a lot of, a lot of people,
a lot of, really all the major platforms and
players in the industry have some, you know,
some element of there's an auction ending or
there's a break starting or there's a, you know,
mystery pack that you could be ripping right
now, you know, that type of thing. What do you
think those platforms should be doing, if anything,
to help from their perspective? Yeah, you nailed
it. Think about it. Whatnot, Fanatics, Arena
Club, eBay, they're not just neutral marketplaces.
They design their environments where people spend
their money and time. So the way they set up
the live auctions, the pack rips, the reward
systems, even just down to the push notifications.
All of that either fuels compulsive behavior
or helps put up healthy guardrails, right? So
right now, most of it leans towards fueling the
compulsion. And honestly, it's built like a casino.
It's fast -paced, it's high energy, constant
dopamine hits, and very little in the way of
transparency or breaks. And these companies,
they have a choice. They can keep squeezing as
much as possible out of the consumer. Or they
can step up and build tools that actually protect
the community. Things that we've been talking
about, deposit limits, self -exclusion features,
clear odds disclosures. I know you're doing a
lot of that with your repacks with PSA. Those
aren't radical ideas. They're just reasonable
ones. I used a very good word before, reasonable.
We're not asking for the world here, right? So
honestly, I think they'd earn a lot more trust
if they started to do those things. It's just
a matter of accountability and responsibility.
So at the end of the day, these apps, these providers,
they're gatekeepers for the hobby. They're setting
the tone for the entire industry. And if they
really care about the long -term health and sustainability
of collecting, not just the short -term profits,
then they should be leading the charge on making
the space safer, more transparent, and more sustainable
for everybody. Again, I'm shocked it's taken
this long for people to even have the conversation,
let alone start making these tangible changes
that have been needed for far too long. Yeah.
It's interesting. I wonder, I don't know a lot
about the casino industry. I wonder. when you
see the responsible gaming messages and some
of the rules that they have around that, I wonder
how much of that came from the casinos versus
how much of that came from government regulators
forcing it down the casinos' throats to do it.
I would like to think that the casinos are...
are altruistic and thinking about the long term
and thinking about the health of their customers
and all that type of thing. But I also know that
that can sometimes be a lot to ask of a corporation
when the money's flowing and the shareholders
are wanting returns. And they know that if they
just push harder and harder into more of that
type of quick behavior. it will grow the money
quicker, the revenue quicker, all that kind of
thing. So it's, you know, the long -term thinking
versus the short -term, you know, the long -term
thinking and the long -term health for the customer
versus the short -term financial win, that can
sometimes be a difficult game for these big corporations
to, you know, to contend with. So, yeah, it's...
Let me ask you something. Would you rather...
some governing body come in like a gaming commission
or an SEC and just start changing things up?
No, I don't think anybody wants that. I don't
want that. Nobody wants that. Proactive and start
making these changes for the betterment, for
the sustainable future of this hobby so that
that never has to happen. I think the biggest
thing right now, the reason why what not fanatics,
the big players in this space haven't done anything.
is because they don't necessarily have to. Nobody
has said anything. Nobody has opened Pandora's
box and said, well, there are a lot of gambling
-like mechanics at play here. This is what you
have to do. Why should they? Why should they
do that if it's going to jeopardize revenue?
So it's just a matter of looking at it through
a different lens, from a different angle, and
thinking about the long -term sustainability
of the customer as opposed to the short -term
revenue, which I think a lot of these companies
are just... laser focused on. So it's not to
say that anybody's doing anything bad. It's just
a matter of creating this awareness, which is
where we come into play. So Collectors MD can
have these conversations with these organizations.
I mean, we've already been speaking with Whatnot,
Fanatics, a handful of these major players in
the space about ways that we could potentially
integrate some of the messaging, some of the
tools and resources. Again, just build a better
hobby for everybody. If you take a step back
and think of what the hobby is going to look
like in 10 years from now, if we don't make any
proactive shifts to help the people within it,
it's just going to continue to run rampant. People
already call it the Wild West. With the growth
of technology and AI and all these other scary
things that we see every day, who knows what
it's going to look like if we don't start to
make some changes. And Alyx, how did you get
into this? What's your background that led you
to this? Yeah, it's a great question. It's something
that comes up a lot. I've been in the hobby for
years. And while it's brought me a ton of joy,
I also saw firsthand how easy it is for collecting
to cross into compulsive territory. And at a
certain point, I realized there was no real support
system out there for people who were struggling.
There was no community. There was no resources.
No one even naming what was happening. So that's
why I launched Collectors MD. I wanted to create
a space that I wish existed when I was really
in the thick of it. And for me personally, this
dates... Well, before I got back into the hobby,
which was actually in 2020, was during the pandemic.
I was a compulsive gambler. I am happy to admit
that I wear my heart on my sleeve as the founder
of Collectors MD. I was attending Gamblers Anonymous
meetings for several years. And frankly, my challenge
was that. I would bring up the sports cards and
the breaking and the break culture, and it didn't
really resonate with anybody. It didn't click
with anybody in those rooms. They couldn't wrap
their heads around how a childhood game for a
lot of people could register as something as
insidious as gambling, right? And so... I thought
to myself, there has to be some sort of support
group, some sort of community that exists for
people who are struggling with this sort of thing.
And again, it's not just the cards. It's compulsive
spending. You hear about people who live through
retail therapy. They just order crap all day.
Not to say my wife or my mother or my mother
-in -law have an issue. The packages that I see
coming in all the time in each of their homes,
it's staggering, right? People love to buy. People
love to sort of scratch that itch, give themselves
something to look forward to. And while in most
cases it's not harmful, it can be really, really
dangerous for some. So again, Collectors MD is
here for any and everybody who might be struggling
with compulsive behavior, whether that's collecting,
spending. and looking for ways to engage with
those things in a healthier way. Yeah, very,
very cool. Okay, so I know you kind of mentioned
it before, but anybody out there, we're at the
end of the talk now, so anybody out there who
this has resonated with and they want to connect,
they want to get involved, maybe they want to
participate, tell them one more time how they
can connect with Collectors MD. Yeah. So again,
I'll say at the end of the day, Collectors MD
is about changing the culture. Our motto is collect
with intention, not compulsion. We want to see
passion prioritized over profit and joy prioritized
over hype. So if you're struggling, you're not
alone. There's a growing community here that
gets it. We'll walk alongside you. The hobby
really does get healthier when we do. So if you
want to get involved, all you got to do is go
to collectorsmd .com. sort of tab here, you'll
see for collectors by collectors. There's a sign
up here button. You go to that. It's a Google
form. All you got to do is fill out your email,
your name. Most of these things are optional.
We ask a few questions like, have you ever experienced
any of the following as a result of collecting?
Do you currently feel in crisis or need immediate
mental health support? Have you ever attended
any type of support group before, et cetera?
There's a waiver. You agree and you We will join
you to the weekly peer support meetings. And
within that form, you can also elect to join
our our group chat. So very simple, very straightforward.
If you have any issues with that or if you don't
want to sign the waiver, please just DM me. You
know, there are ways that we could sort of work
around that. Again, you can reach me via DM at
Collectors MD on Instagram. We're also on pretty
much every social. so Facebook X, TikTok. We
have a YouTube channel for our podcast. We're
on LinkedIn, Discord, Reddit, Threads. So, you
know, wherever you consume your content, you
can reach out to us and we will happily get back
to you. There you go. Alyx, change occurs in
this world when somebody sees a problem and takes
it on their back and decides to make a difference
themselves. You clearly are doing that in this
area. So I commend you for your own journey and
push into this arena to try to make the hobby
better for others. Of course, Geoff. Thank you
again for the opportunity and really looking
forward to working with you to help spread positivity.
Let's do it. Thank you, Alyx. We'll talk soon.
Thank you to Alyx and Collectors MD for coming
on the show today. And I want to remind you that
the full length episodes of these Geoff Wilson
shows are available on YouTube on the Geoff Wilson
Show channel. We also got our podcasts updating
now. They weren't for a little while, but on
Spotify and on Apple Podcasts, you can always
catch the latest shows now. So make sure you
are subscribed to the Geoff Wilson Show everywhere.
What are your thoughts? Let us know in the comments
and we'll see you soon with our next episode.
Take care.