you know actually why don't we do this um let's
bring Alyx on because this is his specialty and
uh i'd be it'll be great to have him join the
conversation mike you're free you're welcome
to stick around you know uh for as long really
uh until we end this this Collectors MD addiction
gambling discussion but let's bring on Alyx you
ready to come on give me a thumbs up there it
is Alyx, welcome to Sports Cards Live. How are
you? Hey, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. You're
welcome. Please meet Joe and Mike if you haven't
yet. Joe, Mike, great to meet you both. What's
up, Alyx? Hope you guys had a great Fourth. Thank
you. Love what you're doing. Thank you from Canada.
And a good Canada Day up here. So, you know,
let's continue the discussion. And I do want
to just a couple of comments. that, well, first
of all, Mookie Chilson, what's up, Mookie, says,
getting out of bed in the morning is a gamble,
but so is going to bed at night. You know, people,
you don't always wake up. So yes, crossing the
street is a gamble. Everything is often a gamble
in life. But Mike, to Mike again, I want to ask,
there's been a lot of talk about this lately,
Mike. I've done some talking about it myself
on Instagram and on X. Alyx has been doing a
bit of the podcast circuit lately and Collectors MD
has really caught people's attention. Lots of
talk about sports card addiction. Mike, was that
also a part of what kind of sparked you to do
your 11 ways that we gamble in the hobby video?
No. So I do videos occasionally on sports card
addiction. I did one. A couple of months ago,
and I actually featured Collectors MD in the video
where I talked about, hey, there is now health.
Because when I did it a couple of years ago,
a video on sports card addiction, there wasn't
a sports card dedicated help for it. But there
was a Reddit post a month or two ago where a
woman posted about her husband. He had lost $300
,000 of their money, and they were $100 ,000
in debt because of it. And so I just talked through
that. talked about Collectors MD being there
and every time i do it i get a lot of comments
from people or private emails or dms from people
saying i'm a mess i need help and now i actually
have a good place to send people appreciate that
mike it's true you know it's it's something that
and i haven't done this yet but i want to i want
to i want to work into all of my sports cards
live episodes sort of like at the beginning or
at some point, just a quick spiel or a quick
announcement, you know, that if you are having
problems, if you find yourself running into financial
relationship issues because you can't stop spending
money, and maybe, Alyx, I'll get you to coach
me on how to word this. Maybe you're the best.
Maybe you can help me word it. And just make
that announcement because... you know you go
into you go into any casino and there are warnings
and and helplines all over the place we don't
see that in the hobby whether we're in the online
casinos the Whatnots the Fanatics Lives uh eBay
Live Loupe whatever other ones there are we don't
see these at least i don't think we see them
there we don't see them at the lcs when you're
buying wax and I don't want to say perhaps we
should because we're not regulated. I think a
lot of people think we should. And I mean, it
would be nice if we had that, but we're not there
yet. Mike, what do you think of that? Do you
think that we should be there? Do you think that
the hobby has grown with the price of wax now
that we should be there? Probably. I hate to
think about. regulation coming into the hobby,
but I also don't know that it would impact me
in any way. But the hobby has gotten so big and
there's really, I mean, the hobby is this huge
umbrella or tent. And there are some portions
of the hobby that probably should be regulated.
You can get, anybody can get on Fanatics and
sell. You've got 10 -year -old kids selling and
there's nothing that's controlling what they're
doing. or if they are scamming anybody you don't
know it's uh it's it's difficult out there for
a new consumer and i always get comments well
new consumers should do the research first but
shouldn't we make it easy for them to understand
what they're getting themselves into yeah i mean
you you put on a movie and you know you're gonna
see the explicit language sexual drug references
you know you get that before the movie starts
to protect people to protect youth why don't
we have that when you whenever a break starts
online or before they start or when you go to
check out for your spot you want you know you
might lose all your money whatever it might be
Alyx let's go to you what do you think of this
and and bring us up to speed on your thoughts
on these two points we've talked about so far
yeah Jeremy first of all thank you so much for
giving Collectors MD this platform in this stage
i exactly I do not accept a thank you. This is
my duty. It's all of our duty. So I appreciate
it. I appreciate it, Alyx, but please don't thank
me. You guys hit the nail on the head. I mean,
we're talking about just very, very honest and
high level awareness. That's all it is. You talked
about creating some sort of general messaging
before you. go live or right before you jump
into the topic of discussions. That's all we
need. And we need it across the board. We need
to see it on the platforms. We need to see it
on social media. Just a layer of support, a layer
of awareness. If you or you know somebody who
has a problem, which we're seeing more and more
of in this hobby, there's a place for you. You
do not have to feel alone. You don't have to
feel a sense of isolation. Collectors MD is here
to support you. no matter what you're going through
in your hobby and your collecting journey. That's
all it is. And we can get into it, but a lot
of the higher powers, the platforms, the breakers,
the manufacturers, they have looked the other
way for far too long. And as the hobby, as collecting,
continues to head in this direction that just
shares so many synergies with gambling and gambling
-like mechanics. i mean it's just so glaring
that change and reform needs to happen and it
needs to happen fast because like you said mike
i mean we have 10 year old kids that have access
now and there's no sense of education there's
no sense of accountability where are the parents
you know like we we just we need to look out
for not just the hobby but the people in the
hobby especially the next generation so that's
what we're doing with Collectors MD and um you
know again i'm just really grateful that uh people
are um you know being so receptive and positive
and helping spread such an important message
because this message is way bigger than me and
frankly it's bigger than Collectors MD it's it's
something that um has been the missing link in
this space for far too long so Alyx, in addition
to doing what we can as a community to save lives,
save marriages, save houses, save families, we
are also trying to protect the future of the
hobby at the same time, which is, I don't want
to say which one's more important. The hobby
is an important industry. It's an important lifestyle
for so many of us. But kids with broken up...
families because of sports card gambling addiction
sports card addiction uh we want to save all
that but like orlando here says we need to keep
new collectors in the hobby not getting in a
hole and leaving it all together i think that's
an important part of it mike you did your video
were you thinking about that at all think about
that a lot um when new when new people come into
the hobby first of all it is already confusing
enough But they assume that they need to join
in on breaks and they need to be buying expensive
wax. And there's nothing that's preventing this,
nothing that's educating them about those things.
And people, it is straight up gambling, like
I said, and not low risk gambling. You can buy
hobby boxes for hundreds, thousands of dollars.
And it's gotten to the point, it's very easy
to say, well, you're not opening wax for the
value. which for some of us should be the case,
but the prices have gotten so outrageous that
you feel the need to get value back. If you're
opening a $500 box, which I've never done, by
the way, you want to get a significant card or
more in there. And if you don't, you just continue
chasing and chasing and chasing, and eventually
you end up in debt. A lot of people do. And that's
very dangerous for a person, for a family. For
life. You know, you mentioned a $500 box. Quick
story about some of my personal firsthand experience
going back to 2008. I predict the cup had come
out. I went to a local LCS, bought a tin, a box,
a pack, whatever for, you know, $600. Opened
it. Was extremely disappointed. Felt like I just
wasted $600. What did I do? I bought another
one. I didn't leave the store. I bought another
one. Opened it. Felt like I got, felt like I
just flushed $600 down the toilet. Maybe I got
80 bucks worth of value back, but nothing I wanted
for my PC. So extra, you know, even double, double
bad. What did I do? Opened another one. I did
it until I opened up all six boxes from the case
thinking eventually I'll get the case hit. Each
box was a gamble. This was before Whatnot and
Fanatics Live and the online. breaking casinos
with all the glitz and glamour and the high pressure
sales tactics and all that. And I drove home
literally feeling like I just blew through almost
$5 ,000 or four grand, whatever it was. And I
was like depressed. I felt terrible. I felt embarrassed.
I felt shame. I felt horrible. Now let's go back
to when I'm 12 years old. Here's another story.
12 years old, 1984. Opeche hockey sticker albums.
You know, remember the albums you used to collect
in the 80s if you're old enough to remember?
I'm down to needing my very last sticker to complete
the whole set so that I could go to school the
next day and show all my friends I completed
the album. Like, that was the goal. Every week,
I'd get $2 a week allowance. I would go to the
corner drugstore and I would, you know, drugstore.
You know, they sold, I don't know if you have
drugstores down in the U .S. or not, but anyway,
went to the corner store. And I would buy eight
packs of these stickers for $2. And I remember
sitting there. I couldn't even get home first.
I would open them at the cash register, at the
counter, hoping to get that Ken Morrow. He won
four cups with the Islanders. Hoping to get the
Ken Morrow, a common sticker, to put in my book.
And I'd spend my whole $2 allowance. And I'd
walk home feeling like I just wasted my allowance.
And I waited all week, did my chores to get,
and I didn't get it. i didn't care if there was
a gretzky in there or another great player i
wanted that one card and i walked home every
week it was i never actually never got it from
opening packs probably did this for a month and
a half six weeks in a row something like that
it's a long time ago but every week i would walk
home feeling like i just wasted my two dollar
a week allowance then you know 2008 i'm doing
it for 600 bucks a pack instead of 25 cents so
you know there's been gambling in the hobby,
even when you didn't care about hits, you wanted
to get that last card for your set. And I would
gamble every week to get it. What I ended up
doing, went to the school one day and I had all
my traders, a stack of them. One kid was willing
to take the Ken Morrow and peel it out of his
album, give it to me so I could stick it in mine.
And I gave him all my traders for the one card.
That's what I had to end up doing. But I spent
weeks and weeks, $2 a week after $2 a week getting
them. A couple of stories there for myself. Alyx,
you are hosting these, you're having these meetings
with the members of, I'm calling them members
of Collectors MD. Are you hearing stories like
this week after week? And maybe you have one
or two that you can share with us, of course,
without violating anybody's privacy. Yeah, these
stories are, we're seeing so much going on, I
mean, across the board. These weekly support
meetings are intended to offer a space where
collectors can talk openly about the emotional,
financial and mental weight that can come with
hobby and with collecting. It's not necessarily
therapy, but it's real support from people who
get it. So we have created a community that has,
again, just been incredibly supportive. And each
week we meet, it's Wednesday night, that probably
is going to shift. most likely going to pivot
to a couple of times a week to sort of cater
or accommodate different types of collectors
and different types of addiction. But we are
seeing stories. And I think the biggest issue
is that people have been afraid. People have
been scared to share their stories either publicly
or maybe even privately with their friends, with
their loved ones, with their family members,
with... other hobbyists and so again we are providing
a sense of uh support and comfort so that people
realize that they're not alone and isolated and
so the types of stories we're seeing um you know
are frankly really really scared uh there's one
individual who has gotten in so incredibly deep
that you know in order to sort of scratch that
itch he needs to spend upwards of ten twenty
thousand dollars a night on Whatnot and uh he
got in so deep so far over his own head where
you know he was using any and all means in order
to you know scratch that itch and that you know
meant whether it didn't matter if it was you
know his own credit card wife's credit card his
company credit card and he got to a point where
you know he was millions of dollars in the hole
and now he's you know on the other side of that
just digging himself out trying to find a sense
of relief and he's going through it on a number
of different levels, obviously with his family,
from a legal standpoint, with his former employer.
I mean, there's a lot of things going on. And
again, there's so much of this happening behind
closed doors that people don't realize because
again, most people keep these sort of things
to themselves because perhaps they're ashamed.
They're ashamed to admit, maybe not just to other
people, but to themselves that they have a true
problem. that they've fallen victim to compulsion.
And so, you know, that's one story. Other story,
similar sort of vein where one of the most well
-known collectors in the hobby, and again, of
course, we protect our members at all costs.
Everything is completely safe and confidential.
But this individual is very well -known in the
hobby. The three of you would most likely know
who this person is. he reached out to me a couple
months ago and was like i can't believe i came
across this you know this support group this
is exactly what i needed he was like you know
i look in the mirror and i'm disgusted with the
amount of money that i've spent and that i throw
to these breakers and these live streams these
live platforms but there's a certain level of
expectation not just from those those people
that he spends money with but the whole community
the hobby itself people expect this guy to show
up every night and put on a show buy everything
on the floor join every break buy all the you
know five ten thousand dollar spots uh for the
the wnba rookie royalty product that just came
out i mean we're seeing this so much more and
more and and we just you know again we need to
to be there for one another we need to look out
for one another uh and you know there just needs
to be a space where people can come to to lean
on when they're really in the thick of it yeah
yeah well said and and you know i think what
what you're doing is you're giving people a place
to come and ears to listen to them and the support
i think that's number one right talking it through
knowing that you're not alone is huge and i love
what you're doing with Collectors MD and uh uh
so thank you you know for what you're doing of
course Alyx i'm sure you're lots of thanks for
you in the chat and we'll give you more i want
to go to Joe for a moment because i was chatting
with Joe and i i said you know i remember Joe
a couple i don't know when it was maybe a couple
of years ago you know you you'd send me a text
message you're like yeah i just bought a first
off the line you know like i don't i don't know
what what were you going through when you were
doing some of that i'm not like i don't think
you have an addiction problem in terms of wax
Joe but what is your experience in terms of having
negative feelings about maybe wasting money feeling
like i don't know that you necessarily have to
have an addiction to in order to kind of have
shame i don't know Alyx if that makes sense but
like i don't feel like i'm i'm i was addicted
to it but i certainly had had moments of feeling
shame Joe what are some of your experiences with
that Yeah, well, I didn't. I'm risk averse by
nature and frugal. So I didn't really ever open
any wax until maybe like 2019, 2020, when I actually
pulled a couple like zions and jaws out of some
target blasters and was like, whoa, that was
pretty fun. And so you get that dopamine hit.
Right. And then you're sort of, you know, you
crave a little more. And so I started going on
the panini. websites and looking for the uh the
dutch uh auctions and and doing what i could
to um you know kind of figure out what the best
price point might be for say prism football i
think i got four first off the line prism football
boxes in 2020 which was the burrow the herbert
year hertz um and and and maybe one of the worst
things that could happen happened i hit a justin
herbert blue ice um which was awesome um but
the the drawback of that was i started to think
okay wow roi is here in these boxes and so um
from about 2020 to maybe 2022 um i did throw
some money in all various um you know products
from from megas and blasters online on eBay to
you know more panini releases and yeah over time
you know the house wins and like mike was saying
earlier um the the prices jumped right around
that time uh the the manufacturers sort of seized
the moment of the frenzy that was happening and
really amplified the prices to a point where
it was it became um less and less a a even a
reasonable gamble You factor in breakers on top
of that, and I've never done a break, but that's
where you get this exorbitant disconnect between
playing the game, if you will, and then feeling
pretty shoddy afterwards. So yeah, Jaylee, I
think you know me. I agonize over every purchase
and every hobby dollar that I deploy because
I'm thinking about what else I can get. This
might amount to... know a cool steph curry card
or a cool standard caramel you know sam crawford
or something and when i see those you know those
hobby dollars um just you know vanishing between
my fingers i i i felt pretty bad and you know
i think it's probably been now you know two or
three years um but one thing i'd like to maybe
hear from Alyx and and all all the panel on is
um eBay addiction, which I think you can manage
maybe the financial output a little bit better,
but the compulsivity and a similar perhaps dopamine
rush when you're bidding in live time on a card.
I'm curious, Alyx, if you work with clients even
outside of the breaking category and maybe even
more just in their... overall relationship to
the hobby and and the amount of time right the
time and energy and you know checking your watch
list at two in the morning with your wife next
to you and just like what am i what am i doing
here so i'd be curious what you guys think about
that component it's a good call out Joe uh i
mean i suffer from eBay app addiction for sure
you know the little blue light comes on and i
have to clear them i have to clear them Regardless
of what I'm doing, if I don't clear them, it's
not good. It's not good. But let's hear from
the other guys. Mike, what about you? Do you
have that issue? Absolutely. eBay is a bad addiction.
I had to move to a point a couple of years ago
where I would not bid on anything on eBay unless
I was doing a snipe bid through Gixxon at the
end. Because what would happen was I would get
fixated on winning the item. And I would end
up just continuing to bid at the very end and
would way overspend because I had to win it.
And then afterwards, I would have spent $150
on a card that I could have bought for $110 or
whatever. And there's obviously somebody else
on the other end of that with the same exact
problem. And so now I just say, okay, I'm going
to put a max bid in of $110, do that through
Gixxon, which allows you to bid. before it's
done, but you never see it. You're not part of
it. You can put it in at any point and it makes
it easier and it helps you control those urges.
And I saw somebody has talked about cards can't
be the only addiction. It's absolutely right.
There's obviously something in you that becomes
addicted to cards or whatever it is, buying on
eBay, opening wax, whatever. I don't know. Yeah,
fair comments for sure, Mike. And I think you've
come up with somewhat a bit of a solve for yourself
there. So that's good self -awareness and good
execution. Now, Alyx, in your groups for yourself
even, are you running into people with, nevermind
breaking addiction, group breaks or personal
breaks at the LCS, whatever it might be, are
you running into people who are addicted to just
buying singles at card shows, on eBay, wherever
it may be, auction houses? Absolutely. I want
to take a step back and bring up sort of a point
you made earlier where gambling has been a part
of the hobby. It's always had a presence since
the very beginning, right? Whether it was buying
packs and hoping to pull your favorite player,
just chasing the big hit in the hobby box, that
element of risk and reward is not new. But what's
changed and what's made it more dangerous is
this 24 -7 access, right? The shift. And so platforms
like eBay and like these live stream breaking
apps, they've taken something that used to be
sort of occasional and turned it into something
constant. So now you can chase auctions. You
can enter breaks. You can place bids. You can
rip packs all day, every day. There's no cool
-off period. There's no built -in boundaries.
And the dopamine loop. never ends all of these
different platforms um or sort of uh different
ways you can purchase cards whether it be buying
singles or joining a break they all sort of um
gravitate around the same dopamine centers in
your brain right it's all about that dopamine
rush getting that chase or chasing after something
having something to look forward to receiving
in the mail uh you're and you're always just
one click away from that next rush so with eBay
specifically it's the endless scroll right it's
the thrill of the snipe the hunt for that that
you know great deal with breaking it's live action
the communal hype the illusion that you're next
it's it's all gambling but now it's just dressed
up as entertainment collecting and even investing
i mean i saw people in the comments asking if
uh stashing sealed wax is considered gambling
again it all just feeds into the same dopamine
centers in our in our brains and so the truth
here is is most of us you know didn't see that
shift happen it felt like evolution but what
it really did was it amplified the compulsion
that we talked about earlier with just going
to your local store and buying a box of cards
or a pack, it amplified that exponentially. And
we're not chasing cards anymore. We're chasing
feelings. And we're doing it on platforms designed
to keep us hooked. They're all designed the same
way. And I just want to say, it's not about shame.
it's not about like putting anybody down or telling
somebody they have a problem or that they're
an addict it's just about creating awareness
because once you see it for what it really is
you can start to take back some of that control
yeah the constant uh availability in your pocket
the uh the lack of friction you know you don't
have to get in the car and drive you don't even
have to go to the website of a of a card seller,
buy it and wait a couple days for the box to
arrive, whether it's like a Tops Now or a Panini
Instant or some reverse Dutch auction on Panini
that you might buy from. There's no way. It's
right there. It's very easy to just overspend,
I suppose, if you don't have self -control. But
this is not exclusive to the hobby. And like
porn addiction is a real thing. You know, I don't
know what you, what people, Playboy magazine,
maybe was it, was it before you, the, you know,
maybe there was some secret way to get VHS tapes
of it. Now it's, it's on your phone. Like everything
is easier now that we have our phones. I'm just
saying it's that lack of that, that lack of friction
makes anything that you, that is literally something.
that you don't actually have to have in hand
right away makes it that much quicker, right?
You can just get it so much easier. So it's,
again, it's not, this is the way the world is
going. And I saw a comment myself and there's
a couple, I think it's Stanley Gordon. I just
want to read a couple of Stanley Gordon's comments
here, you guys, because I see both sides of this,
but I want to, so he says here, don't mean to
be harsh. but a little self -discipline goes
a long way. I highly doubt buying into breaks
is the individual's only gambling addiction.
Okay, maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't mean that
people can't help, I suppose. He also says, I
just don't feel it's the hobby's job to solve
the issue of addiction. Every product can be
consumed in an unhealthy way. And by every product,
I don't think he means every card product. He
means any product. From milk to fancy watches
sort of thing. It's an interchangeable topic
that's beaten to death, he says. And then he
said, it's not the card's fault. The individual
needs to look inward. Now, I'm just going to
say one thing to all this, which is it doesn't
sound to me like Stanley Gordon has ever had
somebody close to him suffer from addiction.
Because I have. I have to the extreme, extreme,
extreme, extremist of situations. And and I went
through a phase of my life where I had some similar
sort of thoughts in my head to what Stanley Gordon
has and he's sharing here with us. And it wasn't
until it hit home that I started to realize that
I was kind of being very limited in my view and
unempathetic and just not. the way i want it
to continue to be so uh but Alyx i know that
this is something that's close to you and you'll
probably do a better job of articulating kind
of your response of that sort of outlook than
maybe i have because i can get really emotional
about this very quickly so i'm going to turn
it over to you please yeah i mean Jeremy you
brought up such a great point um i think a lot
of people just don't necessarily realizing it's
not Stanley's fault. It's not their fault that
they don't understand, you know, the full scope
of addiction and what addiction can do to an
individual. And if you haven't had somebody close
to you experience addiction, you haven't seen
the pain, the suffering, the challenges that
can come with different types of addiction firsthand,
then, you know, you might just not necessarily.
be able to wrap your head around how you know
something like a childhood hobby sports cards
could be considered addiction right so i totally
hear where you're coming from stanley and i don't
think you're being harsh uh i i just think self
-discipline you know it is a big part of it but
the reality is these systems are built to exploit
the lack of self -discipline it's not just about
willpower it's about constant exposure psychological
design and the way these platforms are sort of
engineered to trigger impulse loops. And you're
right, that breaks might not necessarily be someone's
only gambling struggle. But for a lot of people,
it's the one that fuels the most socially acceptable.
It's not necessarily a casino. It's fun. It's
community. And so that makes it a lot easier
to justify and way harder to recognize when it
becomes a real issue. So this isn't about removing
personal responsibility. As adults, I understand,
trust me, it's very important for us to take
a step back and self -reflect and make sure that
we're taking personal inventory and, you know,
doing things responsibly. But it's also about
acknowledging how powerful these systems are
and why real safeguards matter. And again, especially
for the kids, especially for the next generation
of individuals who just don't necessarily have
the tools and resources or perhaps, you know,
aren't properly educated on this. sort of stuff.
So again, it's just, it's adding a layer of support.
It's adding a layer of education and providing
tools and resources to protect, you know, the
people in this community. And those who might
not have that level of self -discipline to pull
away before it's too late for whatever reason.
Mike, anything you would like to kind of say
before you hop off? I know you got to go. I know
it's late for you and you got big videos to put
out tomorrow. uh but i want to give you a chance
to kind of uh put a bow on your your uh inaugural
appearance here on sports cards live and i do
hope to have you back but anything you'd like
to say before you hop off i appreciate the discussion
the comments are fantastic too uh you know like
greg midlife cards talking about kids uh being
protected which is important i see ziggy who's
always got good comments talking about breaks
aren't the problem. And I don't think any of
us ever said anything bad about breaks. You know,
I think that there are a lot of things that are
hobby specific that are addiction problems. And
like, like we talked about, it's not specifically,
or it may not be the only thing that you're addicted
to, or maybe it just expanded your addiction
problem. But yeah, there's just a lot of, a lot
of things that go into this. And I don't think
we can cover it in the half hour that we've had.
Yeah, well, we'll continue. And again, I know
you got to go. We'll continue chatting about
it here with Alyx. And in about 40 minutes time,
we're going to have Chris Hoj join the show.
And we'll have a new topic by then. Josh Adams
is, I think, going to surprise join as well at
that point in time. But Mike, Junk Wax Hero,
thank you for joining us. Look forward to seeing
you at the National. here in 25 days so thanks
again for joining us mike appreciate it thanks
for having me see you guys all right so let's
uh let's keep on talking Alyx and maybe um maybe
i'll take a moment now at this guest well as
as mike has left to read some comments from the
chat that we haven't quite talked about yet i
gotta just to add a little humor uh greg here
says going to bed is a bigger gamble for mrs
midlife uh sports fix says new wax is a double
gamble you hope to get the hot rookie and you
hope he has a hall of fame career right which
reminds me of the comment uh about i think i
have it marked to come but and you've raised
that Alyx was is is holding unopened wax a gamble
and right away i thought about the zion rookie
class and people were stocking up on that And
then it didn't work out. I mean, I think that
is certainly a gamble. Chris C. says, the most
gambling seems to be breaking plus opening wax.
I don't disagree with that. Dan's Venture says,
Alyx is a true hobby hero. I think we're all
on that page. Fowlball, good evening. Welcome
to the show. Fun Bobby says, pretty sure that
if you buy a box of chocolates, you're going
to get chocolates. Daniel Brown says, regulate
breaking. Timepiece Esquire says, my name is
Timepiece Esquire and I have an addiction to
beautiful Pavel Bure cards. Justin Boat, it's
been a while, buddy. He's checking in. I had
to get a new girlfriend. Last one dumped me finally.
Miss you too, Justin. I'm glad you're here. Dan's
Vintage says, be smart with your money. Don't
trust games of chance. Never use debt to fund
a hobby. All great advice if you can execute
upon it, which not everybody can. Cardboard and
Plastics says, unfortunately, it is hard for
us to influence new people in the hobby to not
gamble when the biggest influencers are pushing
mystery packs and it is supported by the biggest
companies. Yeah, the only thing I'll say about
that is, not that we've got to try, but if you
want to try, try. I mean, not everybody is on
YouTube. Not every new collector is on YouTube,
but... That's also not something that we can
count on. And Alyx, I'm going to ask you to take
notes in your head to respond to a bunch of these
after, okay? Yeah. Dan Brown says, Jeremy, you
should have a breaker on and legit challenge
them on this issue. That's going to be a real
difference maker. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure I've
had breakers on here before, and I'd be happy
to have a breaker on. I know Ziggy's a breaker
now, and he's always in the chat, and he's passionate
about it. Maybe Ziggy's the guy. We'll see. Hockey
Cardboard says, should card packs have warnings
on them like cigarette packs? Alyx, I want you
to talk about that one after I'm done going through
comments. Sports Fix, is stashing wax gambling?
I think it can be. Dan's Venture says, Jeremy,
that is what the Goudy Gum Company did to kids
in 1933 with a Napa Lajue. Yeah, I mean, they
did it in 1923, the Patterson Chocolate Company.
uh did it with the one guy whose name is escaping
me right now it's a big hockey grail i don't
give two poops about because he's uh not an important
player thankfully brett miles says great topic
hobby social content can point an unrealistic
portrait of what's collecting is especially for
someone starting out and or with limited funds
big hit after big hit creates a skewed view high
pop professor says casinos can regulate the payouts
of their slot machines like 90 of the money that
is put in, the value of cards is so volatile
that no guarantee of value could ever be made
as a regulation. It's a tough problem. I think
that's such a smart comment. Hi, Pop. Thank you
for that one. Midlife Greg says, this is such
an important topic. Talking about it is crucial.
Ziggy, no. So many people not participating in
breaking are so concerned about breaks. It's
the Catholic Church analogy. How about participate?
or make your own breaks. I hear what you're saying,
Ziggy. The only thing I'll say to that is that
people, just because you're not participating
doesn't mean you're not observing and seeing
what is happening. It's not just the Catholic
Church. It's also people going to sporting events
and saying, you suck out there. Well, you're
not playing. You suck worse than they do. Sancho
says, it's safe to open all the boxes as long
as you don't sell the cards. If you don't sell
them, you don't lose. I have so many issues with
this comment, Sancho. I think that to me is something
that you tell yourself, but just because you're
not locking in a loss doesn't mean that you're
not losing, especially if you don't like the
cards. If they don't give you any satisfaction
from owning them, I just don't agree with that
one. Alyx, I can see you've got a lot of thoughts
brewing. Keep them brewing. Keep them brewing.
Justin Bowe, Jay Lee, I also quit drinking 172
days sober. love you baby justin and and congr
172 buddy keep it going one day at a time uh
dan's vinches says auction house addiction is
also a thing mookie chilson says Joe is right
your attention is a currency eBay loves stealing
my attention uh ziggy no says singles are the
biggest gamble you buy a card you expect it to
go up for no reason except market no value i
completely disagree with that ziggy at least
you know what you're buying and you might have
enough experience both in the hobby and in uh
assessing players to to really mitigate that
risk whereas opening a box or opening a whole
box or buying a spot in a break uh you really
may just get nothing for it especially when you're
buying a spot in a break so i don't i think singles
and i can i actually have like first -hand evidence
at least if you have well at least like You know,
I've been calling myself a sharpshooter since
I really stopped opening product 15 years ago
because I found that all I was doing was losing
money. Now I buy singles and it's been financially
extremely rewarding. So I just disagree. It can
be, though, if all you're buying is the hottest
rookie and they break an ankle. Fun Bobby says
breakers are becoming filthy rich from gamblers
with no self -control on a credit card. And Simon
says. There's a reason why the Breakers Pavilion
at the National feels like a casino. And after
going through all those, I've got 50 unread comments.
So, guys, I'm not going to get to them all, but
I'm now going to turn it back over to Alyx. I
hope you've been taking notes, Alyx. There's
a lot. I want you to, Joe, keep eating that popcorn
because Alyx is going to go off for a bit here,
I think. Yeah, I'm not going to. Well, I am going
to answer some of these questions specifically,
but I'm going to kind of generalize a lot of
this. First and foremost, this is a layered issue,
and all of this deserves real conversation. So
I'm going to start by saying gambling has always
been a part of the hobby in some form. We were
just talking about that. That's something that
Jeremy has touched on several times, and I couldn't
agree more. That thrill of the unknown, the chase
for a rare pull, that's been there since the
beginning. But what's changed is the access.
Again, with these platforms, everything has just
turned into 24 -7 exposure. You're no longer
grabbing a packet at your local store once in
a while. You're ripping at 2 a .m. on a Tuesday,
bidding on auctions subconsciously, not even
realizing that your thumb is hitting the bid
button. You're joining breaks while half listening
in a meeting at work. like the hobby went from
casual to constant and that's when the line sort
of started to blur right so with that when it
comes to sealed wax or breaks there's a big difference
stashing sealed product may not necessarily feel
like gambling but the intent often mirrors it
right you're holding it you're investing in something
and you're hoping that it spikes in value at
some point so you're you're keeping it sealed
to avoid the guilt of ripping it all in one go
perhaps it's like some sort of delayed gratification
and you know you have some self -control that
you didn't just you know rip it open but it's
still sort of tied to that same dopamine loop
and the ultimate goal right is to win is to profit
on that so that hope for value and that on underlying
sort of impulse is is gambling break specifically
and again i mentioned there are layers to this
breaks specifically are gambling in plain sight
you're you're paying for a randomized chance
and you most of the time 90 of the time you either
walk away with nothing or you walk away with
a fraction of what you invest in it right it's
it's a slot machine just wrapped in shiny cardboard
and a whole ton of influencer energy uh you've
got the excitement you've got community you've
got the pressure everything is sort of mixed
together and that cycle just creates something
that's that's really really dangerous and again
especially for younger collectors who are more
prone and more impressionable and vulnerable
to addictive behaviors and predators and bad
actors in the hobby so um going to the question
where um somebody asked should packs have warning
labels like cigarette boxes i mean honestly like
it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world because
whether it's like buying into breaks stashing
sealed wax ripping packs by yourself when you're
feeling down or like you're feeling that itch
they're all addictive triggers like all around
us even just like something very subtle like
a message that says this product contains randomized
content odds of pulling a high value card or
Making your money back are extremely low. Please
collect responsibly. Please rip responsibly.
It doesn't really matter how we word it. We just
need to make sure that that underlying message
is consistent. And that can really, really go
a long way. And it's not about killing the fun.
It's not about canceling the hobby. We always
say we're not anti -hobby. It's just about being
more informed, making intentional decisions,
collecting with purpose, collecting with clarity.
And it's about giving people the tools to...
pause self -reflect and sort of just take a step
back and and make sure that again they're going
about their hobby within their means because
the truth is the hobby is no longer low stakes
or kid -centered right it's it's fast it's loud
it's expensive and it's designed to keep you
hooked these these platforms have added in all
of these bells and whistles to make it look like
a casino and you know when i showed my dad recently
the user experience on Whatnot, he was scratching
his head. He was like, this is literally like
being inside of a casino. I feel like I'm at
Harrah's in Atlantic City right now. And it's
crazy because we're also just like accustomed
to it. We're almost numb to it. We see it all
the time. So nobody's really like putting two
and two together and realizing that this is what
it is. It was designed this way to make more
money. So, you know, with all that being said,
we're not saying don't collect. We're just saying
know what you're getting yourself into, because
if we keep pretending that it's all just harmless
fun, more people are just going to keep getting
hurt. And the industry's silence, you know, won't
be so easy to excuse. So, you know, I think we're
sort of at that breaking point where if we don't
act now, we don't make the changes and start
to really aggressively push for industry reform
as a collective community. where we're going
to be doomed. The next generation is not going
to be set up for success. Okay, well, thank you
for all that, for responding to all that. I've
got a lot of things to say. So I'm going to take
a moment and gather my thoughts in my notes here
and let Joe, if you don't mind, just share what
you've been thinking, Joe, as you've been listening
to all the comments I was reading and to Alyx's
response, if you don't mind. Yeah, I mean, I
would just underscore Alyx's point that, you
know, this is this is very nuanced and complex.
Right. There's a lot of different components
to this from the industry to the individual.
I tend to focus on the individual. And anytime
I see individuals that, you know, are being hurt
by a particular situation, if you know that that's
concerning to me because I'm. I'm empathetic.
And I guess, you know, to get to brass tacks,
I've never been in a break, but, you know, I
have ripped some wax. And I think where my brain
goes as a practical person is what would be the
right amount for breakers to charge, a more modest
amount, I would think. to facilitate pack opening,
the breaking of isolation, the thrill of the
hunt, all the different things that this pursuit
sort of is compelling, why it's compelling to
people. I don't think breaking's going away,
but I do think that safeguarding the ways in
which it's conducted is important to all of us
even if we're not breakers because it does it
does create a healthier hobby ecosystem to have
people not fleeing and also more importantly
way more importantly human beings you know having
their lives impacted um in in in critically negative
ways um so you know my my question would sort
of be along the lines you know i i i'd love the
chat tonight the chat's been you know, I don't
want to say on fire, but they've been very engaged.
And I guess, you know, the question becomes,
is there a sweet spot where people can be at
least doing breaks, but without the massive markups
that already are inherent to most ripping of
wax, right? If we think of 30 % ROI. But then
breakers are finding a way to sort of fractionalize
the spots that make it even more and more and
more of a leap. I guess that's one lever, right?
But the most critical lever that I think Alyx
is on the front lines with is helping the individuals.
And that's, you know, that is essential. And
there's all kinds of corollaries in the world.
It's not just sports cards. But here we are.
This is a sports card show. This is our hobby.
And so we should be stewards for the greater
good. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to get into
the boo -boo, unfortunately, because this is
a sports card channel. But, you know, we have
talked about some other things as well, of course.
So a couple of things I wanted to say, and thank
you, Joe. So I started talking about all this
addiction stuff here on, well, myself on my various
platforms, i .e. Instagram X and YouTube. After
listening to an episode. of the shallow end podcast
the iowa dave show one of my favorite podcasts
out there and uh when he talked about the as
and that's why i'm calling him the uh the the
what does he call them the casino in your pockets
the group break i forget exactly the words he
used but the casino in your pocket era of the
hobby and i was listening to the podcast and
and i The next day, I put out a post on Instagram
and Twitter that got a ton of engagement and
a lot of pushback against me. I did mess up a
part of the post where I kind of did get something
wrong. But it was after listening to Iowa Dave.
And before I put out my post, we got on the phone,
Dave and I. And I said, hey, listen to your pod.
And Dave and I are friends. We talked on the
phone before. I said, Dave. Listen to your podcast.
There's one thing, though, that I didn't agree
with. And I want to make sure I understand it
and just see if we can get on the same page,
because it didn't make sense to me where he kind
of in the podcast. And I'm paraphrasing. So,
Dave, please forgive me if I'm not saying this
right. But he kind of said that, you know, gambling,
you can gamble on these online casinos like the
Whatnots, Fanatics Lives, etc. But going into
an LCS is not gambling. And I said, well, I think
it is. not all the time but i think it can be
so we had a long conversation we ended that conversation
basically with agreeing that it's not that buying
wax at an lcs isn't gambling it's what Alyx was
saying before we've all agreed it's the ease
of access and the lack of friction to buy cards
to buy into breaks and break product online whether
you're part of a group break or whether you are
buying a personal uh a personal box for yourself
as they call them percy's now i've come to learn
So that's what triggered me to put up a post.
And I'm going to put it on the screen right now
for anybody who didn't see it. Right here it
says, if Whatnot, this is me talking, if Whatnot
and Fanatics Live are breaking casinos, and let's
be honest, your LCS is one too. Ripping wax has
always been gambling. I stand by all this to
this day, and that has to do with my own real
experiences and friends' experiences. I go on,
and this is where I get it wrong. Same odds.
That's wrong. And Rob. From Burbank said it's
not the same odds because group breakers will
mark up. He calls it the VIG, the markup. It'll
be higher. I agree. The higher the price, the
worse the odds. Now, getting something doesn't
change, but it's like the risk is different.
But so I agree that that's a bit that wasn't
correct. i say same odds same risk i think that
was incorrect now i go on to say different vibe
different decor that's what Alyx was saying it's
all it's it's the high pressure sales it's the
trying to get people to spend more money it's
and it's the it's almost like some not all great
breakers do this but shaming people to spend
more money on certain spots and i go on to say
it's not about where you rip it's that you're
ripping Now, I stand by this, but I did put out
a follow -up post the next day, which I'll share
with you right here, where I said, you know,
I'm here for the passion. Respectful disagreement
helps us all get sharper. My post yesterday sparked
a great discussion. I'm glad it did. I added
clarification after realizing I was wrong. About
the odds part, that's on me. Most agree. There's
a gamble in opening wax, whether it's at your
LCS or through a live casino in your pocket break.
The differences are in accessibility friction
and, in many cases, high -pressure sales. and
inducement now i again i think that all makes
sense and Alyx and i had a good conversation
about this the other day so uh and now excuse
me Alyx i think we were on the same page is there
anything that you want to add to any of that
or comment on i mean it's obviously very subjective
and there are layers to it and i like the way
you phrased um Repeat what you said again regarding,
you know, just the layer of friction. Yeah, I
said right here, the differences are in accessibility.
We've already talked about these types of friction.
And in many cases, and not all cases, but the
high pressure sales and the inducement to spend
either your first penny or your last penny. Yeah,
that is so well worded. So, you know, is ripping
at an LCS still gambling? Yes. I mean, for all
intents and purposes, yes. If you're paying a
premium for a seal product where the outcome
is unknown and the goal is to profit or hit big,
however you want to word it, it's functionally
gambling. That's just the basic definition of
gambling, risking money on an uncertain outcome
in hopes of a reward. So the fact that it's cardboard
instead of cash doesn't change the psychology
behind it. Just because, you know, you're you.
made the concerted effort to drive to your local
card shop and and purchase a pack of cards in
person and and do it responsibly as opposed to
you know passively on your phone at two in the
morning it's all sort of still the same like
experience at the end of the day so you know
again ripping in person at your local car shop
might feel more nostalgic or grounded compared
to high stakes breaks on on a live streaming
platform but the behavior is essentially the
same you're chasing a result you're spending
with hope and often you're risking more than
you realize um the difference is visibility and
frequency so live breaks add public pressure
the social validation component, the rapid fire
repetition. And even if you're just, you know,
sitting quietly in an LCS parking lot or, you
know, at home ripping a box or ripping box after
box, because you just, you know, sort of have
a feeling that that big hit is coming up. You're
still in that same emotional loop. So it's not
about sort of where you rip like the environment
or the setting. It's why you're ripping, you
know, asking yourself why joy versus compulsion.
how often you're doing it whether it's like occasionally
or obsessively and what you're risking right
whether that's your money it's and it's not always
about just your finances it's about your mental
health your relationships so if you're not thinking
about the outcome the cost or the consequences
then chances are it's sort of crossed over into
this gambling territory and the sooner we start
to recognize these patterns the sooner we can
bring mindfulness back into the hobby because
at the end of the day collecting should be fun
but we just you know we don't want to confuse
fun with free reign right yeah you know makes
me think of another story and i shared this one
with you Alyx the other day i'll share it with
the audience here uh this goes back to probably
2007 in that in that era um a a friend of mine
who's not in the hobby worked at a company and
he had a guy in his company who was a card collector.
And he said, oh, you collect cards? My buddy
Jeremy, he collects cards too. I should introduce
you. So he did. So I met this guy local. And
I'd see him at the card shop after here and there,
the trade nights and that sort of thing in 2007,
8, 9. I get a phone call from him one day. And
he says, I need you to come over and buy everything
I have. i said what what's i said oh okay like
you know i was just starting to get into the
card show game setting up as a vendor i thought
oh great i'm gonna get some new inventory sort
of thing so i went over to his house and uh we
start chatting and he starts telling me a story
about how he's been buying wax at the lcs uh
to the point where he you know on his way home
from work he'd stop he'd spend thirteen hundred
dollars His wife would ask him, what's this charge
on the credit card? And he would say, oh, I had
to get new tires put on the car sort of thing.
I don't know how, you know, that's what he would
tell her. And this happened to the point, it
happened to him to the point where it was happening
so much, he was running out of excuses where
the family money was going. He finally came clean
to his wife. And they agreed that in order to
save their marriage, he had to sell everything.
So he called me up, went over to his house again.
He filled me in what was going on, looked at
the stuff. We made a deal. He helped me load
it into his car. Not just the cards, but like,
you know, blaster tint, like tins of like upper
deck hockey, the empty tins that had supplies
in them. Everything that was hobby related had
to go. He had an uncut sheet of the cup had to
go. I had it on my wall for many, many years.
I just sold that a couple of years ago, actually.
The guy had to. literally leave the hobby altogether
to save his marriage and that was my that was
when I first had that was when I first realized
that like yeah I've gone to the LCS and dropped
four grand and drove home in shame like I would
feel if I lost money at a blackjack table but
this is the first time I saw somebody who was
lying to his wife about it for months and months
spent like I'm going to guess this is me guessing.
I remember like call it a hundred grand. And
back then that was a lot more money than it is
now. And he had to, he had to sell to save his
freaking marriage. So I just mentioned this because
it's another example of what people are facing
in this hobby. They're not talking about it.
Now Alyx is providing a community and a service
and a support group for people who might be able
to, you know, If this guy's lucky, he saved his
marriage. I felt a bit like I was providing a
wonderful service. I almost felt like a counselor
in a way that I came in and helped him save his
marriage because he didn't know where else to
go. I'm sure he could have taken it somewhere.
But anyway, I felt really good that I was able
to help him out. i tell that story it's also
to emphasize this is before the days of Whatnot
or any of these casino in your pocket kind of
platforms this was just from Alyx this has nothing
had nothing to do with ease of access on his
way home from work every day he would just stop
and drop you know whatever 300 1200 1500 until
again he had to stop to save the marriage okay
i want to mention that and then the other thing
i wanted to mention and then we're gonna then
we're gonna uh go back to you, Alyx, was, and
it's in the comments here. So let's just do this
first. We're going to read a few comments and
I'm going to stumble into where I'm going. And
then we're going to go back to you, Alyx. So
Yelio Williams says, pulling a nice card out
of a pack is an essential hobby experience, in
my opinion. I don't know about that. I think,
I don't know if it's essential myself, although
I've done it. So I shouldn't say it isn't, but
I don't know that it's essential. I think there
are other ways to hobby, but I get it. Let's
go. Jordan says, IPC, Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan.
Do these count? as maybe he means as gambling.
I don't think so. I think those are pretty darn
safe. Mark Santucci says, I had Chad Blesnik
on the show a while ago. He's a full -time gambler,
but I don't know if he's a breaker himself. I
know Bles is a breaker. I don't know if he is
or not. Midlife says, I agree, Jeremy. Have Ziggy
on. I want to hear both sides of this. Brett
Miles says, breaking can be fun, 100%. Breaking
to the point where you're in massive debt, not
so much. a lot of conversation joe about what
you were snacking on Jeremy says what is joe
snacking on to which brett says the chat is so
spicy spicy that joe got the popcorn out and
midlife says looks like popcorn ziggy no says
breaking needs a makeover too many negative images
and this is the this is the comment i was waiting
for i think this is a really insightful comment
from ziggy and this is where i wanted to say
that you know should break the makeover might
be towards um responsible and integral breakers
breakers who are showing integrity who are cutting
people off who are maybe issuing warnings and
that sort of thing if they're willing to uh should
breakers like that be celebrated should they
be propped up as leaders in the space instead
of the ones who are doing the most revenue but
are also doing the most damage and high -pressure
sales and inducement and trying to get that last
penny out of the addict in their breakers' rooms.
I want to put that all over to you now, Alyx,
please. Yeah, I mean, I think there are different
types of breakers. There are different ways that
these breakers go about engaging their audience.
Ziggy also mentioned something else that I want
to touch on. that comment was not uh all breaks
Alyx refer Alyx refers to all breaks as gambling
it's a method of purchasing too if there is no
profit is it a gamble if it's free is it a gamble
yes you can break at lower prices you can share
risk but we watch one bad breaker overcharge
and all breakers are not the same so you know
i think that encompasses everything we're talking
about here i totally get where ziggy is coming
from and i appreciate him pulling over uh to
send that message thoughtfully i know he was
uh he was driving and then he stopped to uh to
uh chime in so i i think ziggy is right in that
not all breakers are are created equally and
there are definitely formats that share risk
more fairly or offered at more reasonable prices
and i'm not here to paint every breaker as a
bad actor um or you know somebody with with malicious
intent there are honest community driven breakers
out there that are doing it the right way there's
no doubt about that but here's the distinction
i'm trying to highlight right when the format
mimics gambling behavior uncertain outcome monetary
risk and a prize -based reward system it starts
to mirror the mechanics of gambling even if the
intention isn't malicious so even free breaks
while obviously not financially risky they can
still reinforce this sort of same dopamine loop
and addictive behavior especially in younger
participants who are being conditioned to crave
that hit it can almost serve as a gateway honestly
that's how like gambling platforms suck in a
lot of their customers they send them a free
bet Or they send them a deposit match. And it's
like, oh, it's free. You know, it can't hurt.
I'm just going to do it once. And then they watch
the game and it's super close and it comes down
to the wire. And they lose on a bad play or a
missed shot or whatever the case may be. Next
thing you know, you know, you feel like you just
got, you know, screwed out of a couple hundred
bucks. Right. So you take your own money and
you. you double down. And that's exactly how
you get sucked in. That's also how compulsive
gamblers who are trying to sort of take a break
or self -exclude or cool off, again, get sucked
back in. They're like, ah, this time is different.
I'm just going to use this deposit match once
or use this free bet, and then I'll take a step
back. No, that's not how all of this is designed.
It's like it's literally set up as a trap to
suck you in and spit you out. So sort of to tie
it all together and to Ziggy's point, you know,
profit isn't the only factor. It's not always
about whether the value of what you got matches
or exceeds what you paid. It's about how frequently
you're engaging, what you're feeling when you're
watching or buying in, and whether it's starting
to impact your mindset or your behavior outside
of the hobby. So I'm all for fair prices, shared
risk and community first approach. But I think
we just we need to shine a light on the structures
that take advantage of people, especially when
high pressure and lack of transparency are involved.
Right. So, again, it's not about anti hobby,
anti breaker, anti breaking. It's just about
pro awareness and pro education. You know, educating
these young consumers, these young customers
who just frankly have no idea what they're getting
themselves into. Yeah, yeah. Joe, thanks, Alyx.
Joe, do you have any thoughts on this last little
segment here? And then we'll go to some comments
again. I really appreciated Alyx's breaking it
down there. I hadn't thought about that, I guess,
because I'm a little bit removed. I do think
of ROI, but what you're getting at, Alyx, is
just the whole behavior that's geared to kind
of stimulate the limbic system in the ways that
it does. And, you know, why should someone like
I, you know, care about this? It's because I
care about the hobby and I care about people,
right? Getting back to that fundamental. But
I know, you know, I'm not naive enough to think
there's not a lot of other ways that, you know,
people can ruin their lives out there or go down
a dark hole that impacts their life. You know,
all sorts of ways to tumble down. But in this
space, which is, you know, a space I care about,
it is unfortunate when you see people's experience
kind of become something that not only doesn't
keep them in the hobby, but impacts their life
in a potentially negative way. And I guess what
I'm taking away from this conversation, too,
is just all things. the right proportion. I mean,
I definitely have some compulsive behaviors in
relation to how I hobby. And at various moments,
I've been concerned about my own relationship
to, you know, acquiring cardboard. And I think
for that reason, I do have a lot of empathy for
people that are, you know, putting their lives
at risk, for lack of a better word. And it's
also kind of, mirroring in my mind a little bit
of the uptick in sports gambling. I mean, you're
seeing legalized gambling emerge in all sorts
of states now. It's probably never been easier
to bet on sports. And you see it advertised in
actual sporting events, which I find kind of
amazing because you can't help but question.
Is Scott Foster being put into the referee crew
to extend the series? Scott Foster is a referee
in the NBA, and there was a big commotion online
about whether or not his refereeing of a critical
game in the NBA Finals was tantamount to Adam
Silver deciding or at least wanting the series
to go. more than five or six games or a particular
team to win so i yeah i think uh we've got a
a large problem in the whole sports world and
in the card world um i i do agree with what greg
said in the chat earlier you know uh children
whose brains have not fully developed have even
less of a chance now i don't know if they're
actually breaking or not i don't know how much
that's actually happening but you do see kids
in the showroom floors, going around, hunting
for their kabooms, transacting in a way where
they don't seem to really appreciate the cards
themselves. And that's sad to me. As a hobbyist,
a lifelong hobbyist, I really would love to shift
the conversation out of these economic flipping
kind of situations and a little bit more into
the appreciation of the cards. Yeah, well said,
Joe. And like O says, Joe is hitting it right
on the head. Yeah, lots of great comments there,
especially the parallel with sports gambling
itself. We're going to go to some comments now,
guys. And a lot of this will follow up on what
we've been talking about. Triple V says, this
topic would make a great hobby documentary. Interview
those affected as well as the companies behind
these breaks, which includes the manufacturers,
then overlay percentages, odds, et cetera, in
order. to drive home the point uh Chris C. says
what not is the casino so is your local LCS except
that the lcs has a lot of non -casino like you
can go into an actual casino in vegas and you've
got gift shops and you've got restaurants and
you can get massages that's the non -gambling
part uh an lcs has i think non -gambling aspects
as well other services and that but certainly
can act as a casino. Fun Bobby says, I lost 40K
to breaking in the blink of an eye. It just adds
up really fast. It's always on to the next break.
Texas Ranger says, I think he's talking about
my post as it triggered others too. Texas Rangers,
I think that's what that was about. I'm sorry,
not enough context there. Fun Bobby said, breaking
is not entertainment if it affects people financially.
Hobby Champ said, if you're going to become addicted
to the hobby, become addicted to buying high
-grade rookie cards of all -time greats from
the 1910s to the 50s. 99 .9 % of ultra -modern
will collapse in value. I agree with everything
there, Hobby Champs, except the high -grade part.
Low -grade, high -I appeal, I would add to that.
Ziggy No says, I have reached out to other breakers,
and I've reached out to Whatnot and Fanatics
too. We all want the same, a better hobby. We
need to stop attacking each other. I know, ironic
coming from me. Ziggy, to me, it shows some growth
as well, which I think is great. But thank you
for the comment. Fowlball says, I'm addicted
to sports cards live. I'll take it. 1956 Tops
Guy. What's up, Matthew? Says, hey, oh, glad
to be able to join the live. Glad to have you.
Ziggy says, we need more positive transparency
to help grow and make breaking better. Odds should
be easier to find. Pricing should be transparent.
And this ties into. what I was saying earlier,
where breakers who are doing that maybe need
to be celebrated. Not celebrated, but maybe propped
up or at least leading the way, setting the example.
Maybe that's a better way of saying it. Mid Atlantic
says, I don't think it's right to blame the breakers
when it all starts with the card manufacturer
producing a product that can't possibly be consumed
at a price point that can't be consumed any other
way. Now, listen, okay, Joe is applauding. But
I think there's another layer to that, guys.
The manufacturers started doing this because
of breakers. Breakers came in before manufacturers
knew what breaking was. Breakers invented breaking.
And it was manufacturers who caught on and started
customizing products for breakers. And that's
when the costs all started to go up. Dan's Vintage
said the reason the boxes are overpriced is because...
of Fanatics exploit is exploiting breaking well
again it's deeper than that though really Fanatics
bought tops because breaking was there breaking
came before Fanatics guys they came because they
saw what Fanatics was a what what tops was able
to do and panini and upper deck for that matter
right and leaf with the leaf and brian gray kind
of invented the repack like Breakers came before
the manufacturers realized what they were doing.
If you witnessed the history, breakers came,
the manufacturers customized around them. Just
wanted to point that out. Dan says, thank you,
Alyx, for your thoughtful approach and incredible
knowledge of this problem. 100%, Dan. Curmudgeon
in the house. What's going on, Curmudgeon? Fun
Bobby said the hobby doesn't need breakers. The
hobby needs lower wax prices. And to that, I
say, I mean, either we're too late or the hobby
has to go through another complete cycle or everybody
has to stop buying for that to happen. Otherwise,
it's like it's too late, unfortunately, or whatever.
It's just too late. I think Ziggy knows that
breaking has grown the hobby more in the past
five years than collecting sets has. Sorry. I
think he's completely right. The question is.
uh what cardboard and plastic says is it growing
the hobby in a good way though just because things
are worth more doesn't mean that that growth
is positive so i think that's a fair back and
forth and i i i think ziggy is right but i think
cardboard and plastic has a great kind of rebuttal
to that foul ball says roi should not be in a
hobby now to which i say then shut down eBay
shut down all the auction companies shut it down
This hobby doesn't exist without a potential
of ROI for people. Unfortunately, not this hobby.
Maybe another hobby does, but this one just doesn't
at this point. Chris C. says, the main thing
breaking has done is made breakers rich. I can't
really speak to that too well. I'm not a breaker,
but I've heard that that is the case. Mid Atlantic
says, bravo, Joe. There is a direct parallel
with sports betting. yes and dan says the modern
hobby turning base cards into literal trash is
one of the worst sins of the hobby and i mean
it's funny because not so funny but i think dan
is right and i remember again before breaking
was really big guys i remember going to the lcs
for trade night or other or whatever day seeing
people opening up boxes looking for the hits
and leaving the base on the counter behind and
going home literal trash to the point where a
lot of products have changed from being straight
hit products like upper deck the cup you're getting
six cars every card is numbered there's no real
base the base is limited to 249. you know there
are there are literal products that are only
hits now so okay lots there go ahead joe well
i just want to give the counterpoint to the breakers
created i i it's it's sort of like the hand feeding
the hand feeding the hand right i mean yes that's
a good counterpoint jaylee like when the card
manufacturers saw that they were sort of missing
part of the opportunity to cash in they started
to up the prices and the dance commenced but
i i do think like i want the card manufacturers
to have more integrity than at least some of
the breakers i i don't want to lump all breakers
together because i i do think there are more
upstanding and less upstanding versions but i
you know the the manufacturers don't have to
cave do they do they really have to cave i mean
there because there is some degree of relationship
between what the what the retail price is and
what the breakers do or else At some point, you
know, there's going to be people not wanting
to enter those breaks because they could just
buy the boxes. So I mean, who do you want to
be held responsible? Do you want Backyard's breaks
to be the responsible one or do you want Topps
to be the responsible one? I'd like to think
Topps has more long term investment in that.
And Alyx, I'm sorry, because this is in some
ways immaterial to your work, which is, again.
And the addictive nature of it all, it's all
addictive and it can all ruin lives. We're just
talking degrees over here. Yeah, no, of course.
Yeah, Joe, you're 100 % right, or at least I
should say I agree with you 100%. And some, there's
a, yeah, here it is. Mid Atlantic says, Jay Lee,
breakers may have come first, but the manufacturers
are pouring kerosene on the fire. Of course they
are. They are profit driven and they are often
very short sighted. Right. They are looking to
keep their jobs. They are looking to increase
their annual bonuses. They are looking to deliver
shareholder value in the near term to keep stock
price up or at least shareholder value if it's
a private company. So, yeah, they they are profit
driven. Like, you know, Foulball says. You know,
I don't use eBay or auction houses. And then
James Wynn says, are you even collecting them?
Like, you know, the thing is, is that this isn't
a hobby, guys. Like, it's an industry. And Fowlball
is very fortunate. He's found his hobby within
it. He still comes here every Saturday night
to watch and be a part of the show. And I think
he's like, you know, frustrated because he doesn't
like a lot of what he sees. But this is... This
is a hobby that everyone experiences in their
own unique way. And it lives within an industry.
This isn't a hobby overall anymore, guys. It's
an industry. You have to realize that. That might
be the first thing to realize that everybody
wants your money. Everybody, the grading companies,
the supply companies, the breakers, the LCSs,
the online casinos, everybody wants your money.
The auction houses, everybody wants your money.
It can be a hobby. It's a hobby if you make it
a hobby. If you have the power to make it a hobby
and not let it become an addiction, not let it
become your financial ruin, enjoy it in your
own way. Enjoy it as productively as well as
you can. But guys, it's a hobby that exists in
an industry that is profit -driven. The manufacturers,
in many cases, I'd love to have a conversation
with like a Michael Rubin or whoever the head
of Panini is and ask like, you know, are you
thinking long term the way a lot of us voices
in the hobby are? We want this hobby to last
for 100, 200 years or whatever indefinitely because
we love it. We think other people will love it.
But if all it is is a path to financial ruin,
then people won't love it as much. Thankfully,
many people, maybe most, have it under control
and have found a way to not lose their relationships
their financial well -being and all that in it
but again i stress guys this is an industry we
call it the hobby jokes on us jokes on us because
it's an it's a it's an industry and we are the
hobby within it but it's up to us to not let
the industry get the better of us on an individual
level Alyx i'd like you to kind of put some finishing
touches on this if you will And then we're going
to wrap up this part of the show. Yeah. Both
of you guys just brought up so many great points.
You know, one thing I want to touch on real quick
before, you know, we sort of close up here is
that one of the biggest problems in the hobby
right now is that there is no real governing
body overlooking what anybody's doing. Manufacturers,
platforms, breakers, right? Unlike other industries.
like gambling or investing which have oversight
from like a gaming commission or the sec the
card world operates in this sort of gray area
right breakers marketplaces again manufacturers
they basically can do whatever they want with
zero regulation and zero accountability so that
means no licensing requirements for breakers
no consumer protections for buyers no rules around
transparency odds of pricing and no consequences
for predatory behavior all things we've been
talking about right and because there's big money
involved like you you said Jeremy no one at the
top has much incentive to change it like why
would michael rubin change anything when they're
just breaking in the dough and nobody's saying
anything everyone benefits from keeping the system
as is especially when the system favors hype
over honesty so until there's a structure that
holds companies and creators accountable the
same way we expect in gambling or financial industries
like you said Jeremy this is an industry right
collectors especially younger or more vulnerable
ones are left unprotected and and another great
point there are most people in the hobby most
people in this space are responsible and are
able to be accountable and control themselves
but there's still going to be no matter how you
slice it a handful of people you know we don't
know exactly what that percentage looks like
yet but there are enough people it's enough of
a problem where we need to step up and do something
about it so it's again it's like playing a game
where where the house always win wins and there's
there's just no referees and it's the uh the
reality of it and and you know again like Until
something changes, until there's real reform,
we're just going to continue to see this hobby
spiral in a negative direction. And one last
thing I'll say there, it'll be much better suited
for the big players, the platforms and the manufacturers
and the breakers, for them to adapt to what we're
trying to do here versus somebody like a governing
body like an SEC or a gaming commission to come
in and just completely... strip it of you know
everything and just change it up however they
see fit like nobody's gonna want that we don't
i don't want that so we just need to be more
proactive we being you know all of all of these
higher powers so um you know there's there's
a few things i just wanted to uh mention in terms
of like what we offer before uh before i sort
of close out and leave here um first and foremost
we we mentioned this earlier we run weekly peer
support meetings um if you're interested in joining
one of those you can visit collectorsmd .com
and then under resources you just click on weekly
meetings and it'll take you to a google form
where you fill out the information and from there
we can add you to these these uh group discussions
which again are really really helpful and really
impactful especially for those that need it we
also put out daily reflection and educational
content on a daily basis uh this is bite -sized
posts that sort of help you pause reflect and
approach collecting with more intention it's
not overly preachy it's just honest and it's
stuff we sort of wish existed when you know we
were going through the struggle ourselves we
also i have our own podcast which Jeremy would
love you know to have you on at some point in
the future where we sit down with collectors
industry voices mental health professionals to
sort of unpack what's really going on in the
hobby basically just more or less what we discussed
tonight uh it's not about hype it's not about
like highlight reels it's just real talk with
real people um And we're also working with some
really great partners. We partnered with a company
called Burgess Health, which is a professional
online clinic that offers support for people
with gambling addiction. And so that sort of
layers in a sense of professional therapy for
people that might need it within our space, because
I'm not a licensed therapist. We've also partnered
with Gamban. They basically... allow you to block
certain software on your phone and what has always
been gambling for them they've now added what
not Fanatics among several other apps that you
know basically you can limit yourself in terms
of how much time you're spending within those
within those apps and so you know if you're a
part of an aligned organization or platform and
just want to help create a healthier hobby ecosystem
where we're always open to conversations um and
at the end of the day you know this is all about
community accountability and healing and we're
here to remind people that again you can still
love the hobby and protect your peace at the
same time Alyx what's what's your mantra i know
you have a mantra at Collectors MD collect with
intention not compulsion and uh collect with
intention heal with support I love it. I love
it. Before we let you go, and then we're going
to bring on Chris Hoj and Josh Adams, I want
to just get some more comments sort of out of
the way that I've marked for inclusion here,
Alyx. So hang tight. Josh and Chris, give me
five more minutes. Joe, grab some more popcorn.
Here we go. Mid Atlantic says, Jay Lee, breakers
may have come first, but the manufacturer, oh,
we did that one, but the manufacturer pouring
kerosene on the fire. Yeah. Well, not only that,
they're customizing products just for them. uh
okay next up midlife says give the base cards
to your local elementary school teachers can
use them for math and for prizes yeah give them
out on halloween also give chocolates and potato
chips but give them out on halloween to kids
in your neighborhoods i've been doing that for
decades ziggy no says breaking started as friends
and a recorded video wasn't even live i mean
guys this was in the late 00s this wasn't even
in the 2010s breaking has been around since like
08 or so, if I remember correctly. Linda Spurs
says, without breakers, singles collectors like
myself would not have as many cards available.
And I do agree with that, but the hobby would
be so different. Who knows what we would be getting
at that point? 1956 Tops Guy says, everyone wants
your money, but some components leverage deficiencies
of the human mind to push people into dangerous
financial mental territory. That's where I have
an issue. That's what this whole show has been
about. So while this whole episode has been about
so far, Matthew. Yeah, we all definitely agree
with that. Dog Food Soup says, I love that name,
has the proliferation of group breakers led to
what seems like a huge increase in the amount
of card shows? I was blown away by the number
of local shows when I looked recently. And I
do think there is a correlation there, but the
overall growth is just a part of it. Chris from
Missouri, welcome to the show and thank you very
much. Brett Miles says, yeah, Jeremy well said,
I get to control how I enjoy the hobby. The moment
that you feel someone else. whether it's industry,
breakers, shops, online, controls how you were
involved in the hobby. That is a huge red flag.
Dave H says, with the amount of info now, we
can get the case prices, add up the team prices,
see what a breaker is making. If you don't like
it, don't do business with them. I stopped buying
with some because of it. And that's where, you
know, the odds are different based on how much
you're spending for the same spot. Mid Atlantic
says, baseball cards stopped being a kid's hobby
many, many years ago. It's a big business wrapped
in. Bro culture and devoid of oversight. Yeah,
bingo. And Phoenix Rising says, Alyx, what's
your YouTube channel? Go ahead. I dropped that
in the chat, but it is youtube .com slash at
Collectors MD. Appreciate that. There you go.
Okay. Well, this has been great, Alyx. I want
to thank you for coming on and continuing the
discussion. I think that... I think that what
you are doing is the most likely catalyst of
seeing some sort of actual material effective
change, even if it is simply warnings before
you cash out on an app or on a website. Whatever
it is you're doing, not whatever it is, what
you are doing, I think it's important, guys.
Like I said, I think it's important. I think
it's important for our fellow hobbyists who are...
who maybe lack the the strength to stop when
they should and i think it's important for the
longevity of the hobby overall as well so Alyx
thank you for what you're doing thank you for
your time tonight uh it's been great having you
thank you both Jeremy joe this has been an absolute
pleasure thank you to everybody in the chat too
you guys were great um you know ziggy thanks
as always uh just for being super uh insightful
and sharing your um your opinions on everything.
We appreciate all of the support. Again, if you
want to learn more about Collectors MD, you check
us out on social media or collectorsmd .com.
We are here to help. That's all it is. It's all
about spreading positive awareness and just reinforcing
that the hobby is a great place. We just want
to make sure that we are collecting with intention
and not compulsion. I love it, Alyx. Are you
going to be the national? I'm not this year,
but we definitely are. talking about you know
preparing uh to have presence at not just the
national but Fanatics fest amongst other card
shows in the future Alyx thank you again for
your time thank you for what you were doing uh
keep in touch we'll talk soon absolutely thanks
guys have a good night take care carry on all
right guys that was Alyx Joe