Look, we get it, Tiger fans. We know the baseball
season can be a grind. Luckily, when you're ready
to trade hot dogs for tailgates, we've got you
covered with Litterbox, a Detroit Lions podcast.
It's the same unfiltered Detroit sports talk
you get here, just with more biting kneecaps
and fewer bullpen meltdowns. So when Sunday rolls
around, don't just pace around like AJ Hinch
waiting for a reliever. Fire up Litterbox, a
Detroit Lions podcast, wherever you're listening
now, and roar with us through the NFL season.
Billy P from The D and Chet here. Thank you all
for listening to Litterbox, a Detroit Tigers
podcast. If you enjoy the show, please make sure
you hit that subscribe button so that you never
miss an episode. We'd love hearing your thoughts
too. Leave us a rating or just drop us a comment.
Please let us know what you think and whatever
you want us to cover next. Your feedback really
helps us grow and keeps the Tigers talk rolling
all season long. Go Tigers and thank you. You're
listening to The Litterbox, a Detroit Tigers
podcast with your hosts, Chet West and Bill Patterson.
Detroit Tiger fans, welcome to the latest edition
of the Detroit Tigers Litterbox, your podcast
for all things Detroit Tigers. I am one of your
co -hosts. Billy P and I'm here with Chet and
we're going to do a recap on the season that
was the 2025 Detroit Tigers. Overall, I feel
it was a success. We had the final press conference
with Scott Harris and AJ Hinch. However, I still
have some feelings that some baseball or better
baseball might've been left on the table and
that there could have been possibly a few more
moves that the Tigers could have made to make
this season even more spectacular. Chet, your
thoughts. Declare or not so clearly declare in
the presser He dropped a lot of hints to tiger
fans as to how how the offseason is kind of gonna
work But let's go back and take a look at the
season that was 2025 bill sounds good I also
was gonna we have a sister podcast the Detroit
Lions litter box and we like giving game balls
out and so I Would like you to go through stats,
but if I could please you want to do your game
balls I would like to do my season game balls
with your permission Yeah, I think that's great.
So let's let's just start off. Let's start off
with a hitting for now. Okay? Okay. We'll do
hitting first, then we'll walk through pitching.
I've got the hitting sitting here in front of
me. And there are some curious numbers here.
Guess who led the team in home runs this season,
Bill. Take a wild guess. We heard about it all
season long. Oh, our guy. Our guy Riley Green.
Guess who led this team in RBIs this season,
Bill? Our guy? Our guy, Riley Green. 111 RBIs,
36 home runs. You know, the interesting thing,
and this may shock you, who do you think was
runner -up for home runs this season? Well, I've
got it pulled up, so... You do? Okay, so it's
not going to shock you at all. All right. You're
cheating. Well, how about I give you a wild guess,
and then you can correct me, because I think
that's where you want to go. So I'm going to
just tongue -in -cheek say, oh, it's got to be
Trey Sweeney. Okay. We're off to a roaring start
here, folks. Now, Spencer Torkelson was the number
two home run getter this year at 31, which is
pretty impressive. I think a lot of what he did
this season went unsung and people are still
honing in on the fact that he hasn't quite lived
up to his number one draft pick status over the
years. But but climbing that ladder a little.
Go ahead. Yeah, you have. Yeah. So I've got a
couple of thoughts if we can circle back to Riley
Green. We've talked about this quite a bit during
the year and then I'll fast forward to torque
in. Sorry for the joke on Sweeney, but he's going
to. go in our lackluster category for sure. Going
back to Green, he had an excellent year. There's
one thing that stands out. Right now, I am baseball
prospectus and baseball reference. So just so
we're looking at similar things. He had over
200 strikeouts this year. He landed at 201. And
despite the home runs and RBIs, and for most
of the season, his OPS led the team as well.
And basically, the team team went as Riley Green
went. If he could cut down on those strikeouts,
we are looking at a possible bonafide. He's already
a superstar, but I'm talking like a game changer,
a game wrecker of the finest order. And so one
of the things that I picked up on that we didn't
discuss on the pod is his swing is wildly inconsistent.
And at the end of the year, when he was pressing,
check can see me, but for our listeners, imagine
instead of a level plane, you know, where you're
just going horizontal, his swing was really cutting.
Almost like you're in the back always had that
uppercut swing, but it definitely got more and
more exaggerated as he pressed it Yeah, I don't
have the metrics on his swing plane in front
of me But I would be curious to see if he starts
cutting upwards more and more as he's trying
harder and harder to produce That was what I
gleaned in red And some other sources and again,
I think there's a lot to hang our hat on He is
not gonna get my game ball. We'll get to that
in a minute and then Torkelson Let's take a step
back going into the season the media literally
thought that he was a question mark to make this
roster And if you look at what he accomplished
this season, and I'm just going to kind of go
through it. You know, he had 72 walks. He struck
out 169 times. He ended up with a batting average
of 240. His slug was 456. His OPS was 789. And
you already talked about, you know, being second
on the team in home runs. He was clutch. And
again, if you take away where he was drafted,
I think you're looking at a really, really solid
player. really, really solid first baseman. Is
he Pete Alonso? No, but he's... But he's in there
with some of the first baseman they're talking
about. He's in there with a contrarious for the
Cardinals. He's in there with guys who are...
He's like right in the mix. I would say he's
a top five first baseman, I think, in most metrics.
Top six. And that is worthy of a first round
pick because think of how many first round picks
not only the Detroit Tigers have had, but across
Major League Baseball that haven't panned out
at all. 31 home runs is nothing to sneeze at
either. So and he was runner up in RBI's at 78.
So he was it was him and Riley Green for most
of the season for our offense. So and I have
to apologize for our last pod I kept saying at
bats when I meant we needed more batters Yeah,
and what I still would like to say is that I
think if there was a veteran bat that could help
protect those two individuals green and torque
I think the sky's the limit because going into
the season Colt Keith was removed From his natural
position, second base, Gleybar Torres was signed
to play second base, all because the Tigers'
front office and Tigers' system didn't think
that Torkelson would actually be an everyday
player for them. Yeah, he kind of threw a wrench
in things a little bit. In a very pleasant way.
But he did kind of throw a little wrench in the
plan. So, pleasant surprise from Torke, and I
think the sky's the limit for Riley Green. Where
I would like to move is to talk about your important
metric batting average and who the leader was
of the regulars who also is my tiger to get the
game ball for the offensive side and that would
be one Dylan Dingler who emerged on the scene
is again a pleasant surprise chat. We thought
that we would see a lot of the mustached catcher
this year as the everyday player. And we didn't
see Jake Rogers all that much. He was really
only in there every fifth day, every fourth day,
because Dingler not only manned a really solid
defensive position behind the plate, but also
led the team in regulars with a 278 batting average.
And again, his OPS slid throughout the year,
but he finished at 752 and I would say that he
gets my game ball for the fact that he was nothing
short of a revelation and he seemed to get timely
hits when the rest of the bats got cold and also
hit in clutch situations when others were hitting
as well. So your thoughts on all that? I'm good
with that. I, you know, the batting, it's kind
of interesting that the highest batting average
on the team was a catcher. the end and I'm looking
across here the only OPS that ended up over 800
was Riley Green's OPS at 806 and so I'm kind
of looking across these hitting stats they drop
off 20 digits from Dingler to the next highest
batting average which was McKinstry at 259 so
I am definitely looking at these batting averages
and saying you know after Dingler the next regular
position player who got, you know, in of course,
we're putting a certain amount of at bats on
this. There are other guys who may have had higher
averages, but they didn't get the at bats. I'm
looking at regulars here. McKinstry with a 259
and then jumping up to 278 to Dingler. But everybody
else is down around McKinstry. and even worse,
lower. So I'm fascinated by the fact that our
batting average is really, outside of Dingler,
didn't cross the 250, 260 mark for anyone else
after a season that we just had. Granted, bad
September does that to the numbers, but I'm sure
there were other guys that were up there closer
to Dingler's numbers up through August. So one
of the things I would like to see the Tigers
do that was alluded to in the press conference
by Hinch and you'd like to see them hit more?
I would like to see them strike out less, actually,
Chad. No, no, no. Yes. Yeah. I'm chuckling as
well. Yes, of course, batting ever should be
key. But I think more selectivity would be better
because here's the thing. When the Tigers did
hit, they were first in Major League Baseball,
getting first to third in creating. extra opportunities
on the base paths, which was an excellent job
organizationally and from AJ Hinch to do that,
given that the team speed is not one of the strengths
of this team. As a matter of fact, I don't really
think they have many guys outside of Parker Meadows,
maybe ZMAC, that have above average speed. And
that's one of the things that I would like to
shout out organizationally, that they, when things
were rolling through the first hundred games,
nobody was going first to third like the Tigers
were. Nobody was just generating extra bases
like the Tigers were. And if they can cut down
on strikeouts, increase their ability to generate
walks, because I think you and I both know that
Torres will not be part of the Tigers' future.
And he was... Arguably their best batter at taking
pitches and he definitely had the best played
approach Throughout the season. Well, at least
for the first hundred games. He fell off a cliff
as well. So noted noted Yeah, but that's really
what I was trying to listen to was at the press
conference, let's not get upset with what they're
saying. Let's try to really listen to where the
Tigers could improve organizationally and within
the clubhouse. And that was one of the things
that really jumped out to me is that not only
are they cognizant of it, but they have a plan
put together to try to decrease the strikeouts,
increase the walk rate and get back to what they
did best, which was generating extra bases. Sure.
I agree with that. And I would like to see those
averages creep up. I'd just like to see that
on base percentage stay up. Even if it's just
taking walks, getting on base, making things
difficult on that other team's pitcher, we saw
that in the first half of the season. As you
noted, didn't see it in the second half of the
season as much. And I do think that that is kind
of where this team lost itself down the stretch.
Something I want to call out here. We're going
to move on to pitching here in a minute. Most
of our batting metrics for the Detroit Tigers
this season all sit somewhere in the middle of
the league. We weren't the worst at anything.
We weren't the best at anything. Batting average,
on base percentage, strikeouts, we had the leader.
And strikeouts with Riley green at 201 so we
were down the list a little ways there But as
far as team stats go we sit around the 15 16
spot 14 spot and a lot of these statistics That's
as a team to make the ALDS and have offensive
stats in the middle of the pack Must mean that
we did something with pitching right bill Tarek
Schubel led the team in ERA at 2 .21. I would
say he still has to be the front runner for the
Cy Young. I've seen nothing really to say that
it won't be Schubel. He's going to win the American
League Cy Young and the National League. That's
still up in the air for me. Well no, just give
it to the Dodgers. Just pick a Dodger. Next stat
that sticks out to me is wins. Wins stat for
a pitcher is in this day and age kind of just
a... You know, it's a vanity stat. It's really
a team stat more than a pitcher stat. But it
shocked me that Casey Mize actually led the team
and wins. He ended up 14 and 6 on the season
and Scubal ended up 13 and 6 on the season. Now,
that's take it for what you will. It's wins.
I'm not going to, you know, ERA and wins don't
tell the entire story. There are a few others
like Fip that I would look at fielding independent
pitching. Scubal leads that too at a 2 .45. Scubal's
whip. was ridiculous at a .891 whip. .891 walks
hits and he's pitched. That is unbelievable.
It's jaw -dropping and he is the best in the
game. Period. Walks per nine, 1 .5. Okay? Led
the league in both of those. categories. Strikeout
to walk ratio 7 .3. Led the league there. Incredible
stuff as far as Scubal stats go. The rest of
the team in those areas somewhat pedestrian for
pitching. And I think we kind of saw that, Bill,
like past Scubal. Mize did some things and stood
out at a 3 .7 average for the ERA for the season,
which isn't bad. Everybody else on this list
sort of just falls off and goes into a very,
very middling to medium category once you get
outside of Scoobles dominance, which scares me
for next year because I think our staff is going
to be made up of a lot of these guys. Now, some
may turn the corner. We get Reese Olsen back.
He made he had some pretty darn good stats prior
to getting hurt and going out for the season,
which I think hurt us quite a bit. Glad you called
that out because. Yeah. I'm still looking at
war, wins above replacement player. He and Casey
Mize were second after tied with Will Vest at
a 1 .7. Yep. And the really number that jumped
out to me was Rhys Olsen's earned run average
at 3 .15. If we can get Rhys Olsen healthy. Yep.
A lot of questions. I feel real good about our
staff if Rhys Olsen comes out healthy and throwing
next year as he ended this year. And another
gentleman whose ERA looks very inflated, but
you have to remember that he pitched in relief
and he was not as effective in relief, especially
high leverage situations where he was inheriting
runners on base, is Keiter Montero. So going
into 2026, let's just... Let's talk about the
Scubal. I like Keiter as a five or a four in
our rotation. I do too. I do too. I would be
perfectly fine with him as a number five in our
rotation. And that leaves like Scubal, Mize,
Olsen as your top three. And then you slide Keiter
in there. What if like Melton is your four and
Keiter is your five with that group? Well, let's
talk about Jack Flaherty for a moment. I'm leaving
him for the end. Yeah, he, I think, is going
to be a tiger again. You think he's picking that
option up? That's what I think is going to happen.
He's going to exercise the option, you think?
I don't know. The more I read, the more I realize
that 20 to 25 mil a year for a pitcher is just
kind of standard right now. That gets you your
4ERA guy. I mean, look at the Matt Boyds, look
at the Jack Flaherties, look at the... I mean,
that's just kind of what you're paying these
days. So he may go back out on the market and
try and catch a little more. I will say this.
I am fine and at peace with whatever happens.
If he's a Tiger next season, to your point, it's
money well spent just to have another arm in
the starting rotation, which is all he is. He's
not a number two. Yeah, he's definitely a four
or five. You know, you just gave the starting
rotation as we envision it. He can pitch like
a two, but he can also pitch like a five or five
man. Yeah. Thought I have those it's a win -win
for the Tigers if he does exercise that option
and is elsewhere It doesn't really hurt you that
much and if he's a tiger again It's a nice piece
to have if we can can I do the negative on these
wars because we talked about the positive And
I'm gonna try to stay with starters here for
a minute really ugly numbers for Charlie Morton.
Yeah negative point oh eight war Yep. And Sawyer
Gibson won. Yeah, he got a couple of starts and
did not pan out. Yep. And then the other Patek
negative point six. I mean, yes. Oh, jeez. The
trade deadline was not kind to us. It wasn't
even dumb. Go on and on about that. It wasn't
even dumpster diving shut. It was it was bad.
It was just inquiring stop gaps to just breathe
on the mound at times. It felt like. As I go
across and I look at the war. You know, you see
these negative war numbers and then I look at
our pen. You know, most of our guys had a positive
war of our regular relievers with with the exception
of Tommy Canley, who had a negative point one
war, which felt like a lot more. at times. When
I saw that number, it absolutely stunned me because
I thought I thought he would have been at least
like a negative. A full digit, a full digit at
least. Oh, my gosh. I mean, you know, Will Vest
had the one big one that stands out with a one
point seven war, and that still isn't even that
great. Like, let's just leave that where it is.
So I think in the end of this, when we do start
talking about the big picture here in a couple
of minutes. They gotta get some strikeout guys
in there. They gotta get some swing and miss
guys. Have to get swing and miss guys. Like,
if there's one thing we do in the off season,
I know you want a big bat, we gotta go after
some bullpen help. Because looking at these numbers,
the bullpen was just so pedestrian. It's actually
shocking we didn't throw more games away early
on with this pen. Can't I ask for both? Or am
I? You can. You can ask. Or am I? I just don't
know if you're gonna get both. So that'll put
a bow on pitching. Basically it was Tarek Schubel,
some moments by Mize and Olson. We saw a new
guy in Troy Melton come along that I'm really
excited for next year. Who was, overall, getting
off of pitching now, getting onto the team as
a whole, who was your biggest surprise player
this season? It's got to be Dingler. You think
it's Dingler? He just stands out so much to you.
I think it was, at one point, you could have
sold me on Zach McKinstry. Being the biggest
surprise player with a runner -up to Spencer
Torkelson But I think Dingler takes the cake
because I don't think we thought we were getting
anything from him this year at catcher I honestly
thought catcher was gonna be a major weakness
So we go back to our beginning pods from spring
Wondering who was gonna fill our catcher role
and we were talking about guys like who we might
see Theron Lorenzo We might see Bersagno. We
might see those guys never even came to the equation
because Dingler was so good up there for rookie
of the year in the AL and really looking like
the future of this team. Now, I'm going to ask
you another question. Who is the biggest disappointment
this season? I mean, I can't bury Trey Sweeney
anymore, so let me move off that. Does it have
to be a positional player? Well, it can be anybody
you want. I'm gonna give - I'm opening this up
to pitching. I'm opening this up to the whole
thing. Tommy Cannelly became a running joke for
me and you as well most of the season. He didn't
even make it to the 100 game mark unscathed.
Again, we talked about his war not being as bad.
Uh, I would - You know, he didn't pitch a lot
for us, but he was someone that I thought we'd
get a lot out of, and that's Bo Briski. I don't
know what happened to Bo Briski. What happened
to Bo Briski? He, his war was negative point
eight, and he just kind of fell off a cliff.
The other guy that I thought we might, I was
high on, but quickly realized that that was incorrect,
and that unfounded, and there was no basis of
factual... documentation was Sawyer Gibson Long
as well. I had very high expectations for both
of those gentlemen, and it didn't seem like they
delivered at all in any way, shape or form. I'm
gonna throw a curve ball to you here on my biggest
disappointment. I agree with you on the biggest
surprise player being Dingler. That was a wonderful
surprise. My close runner up would be Torque
for surprises. My biggest disappointment, and
this goes back to day one, Jace Young. not taking
the opportunity that he was given to be the third
baseman for the future of this team. And maybe
he's not done, okay? There's a lot of talent
in that kid, but he is just a kid, but he is
24. I mean, he's got to start doing something
some point in time here. It's got to start happening
for him. And for all of the... He was a very
highly touted prospect. Still is, to some degree
or another. Lost a lot of shine. Him not taking
that third base position and at least looking
serviceable over there really disappointed me.
And I think it actually created a massive hole
to a degree in our lineup, a position of need.
We needed a power hitting third baseman, somebody
who could juice the ball a little, and we just
never kind of got that. at that spot so jace
young gets my biggest disappointment of the season
i could do a conglomeration of like sweeney young
and you know throw another one of the young guys
that didn't quite pop like maloy or something
like that in there or or meadows but meadows
was hurt for a good portion of season, a little
unfair to him. Malloy did what Malloy was supposed
to do when he came up at times. He hit and did
pretty well, showed some good, you know, approach
the plate. But so I'll stay off of them. I'm
going with Young is my biggest disappointment.
I really thought that kid was going to fill a
need. So not to be Pollyanna and, you know, silver
lining, you know, glass half full, but we wouldn't
have gotten as much that ZMAC had it not been
for Jace Young not grabbing the opportunity.
So good for the Tigers having organizational
depth, but it was interesting that Jace Young
didn't. grabbed the opportunity. And then his
brother, who is also a highly touted prospect,
didn't grab the opportunity with the Texas Rangers
either. And so struggles. Yeah, which is weird.
You don't often see it like in the family where
both are struggling in years that they could
have really jumped off. Here's just if we can
talk about age and some of these guys that were
disappointments. What? I think is going to happen
moving forward is Jace Young's 24, so he's on
the younger end. So there is still hope for him
in terms of an age standpoint, but Justin Henry
Malloy's 25 and I have a feeling that he is just
going to get left behind. That's very possible
with because there's a youth movement coming.
Yeah. And we can touch on that in a minute. I
just, I think his opportunity was also here this
season and was needed and he didn't capitalize
as well. I don't think it's as egregious as the
gentleman that you mentioned, but he's another
one that I'm just sitting here kind of scratching
my head that he had all the opportunity in the
world. The at bats were there for him and he
couldn't stay up on the, the big league lineup.
And it was mainly because he would swing and
miss often. So, uh, all right. I agree on all
those. I'm going to do one more thing here for
you before we button up 2025. I want to ask one
more question here or or bring one more thing
to the table. Our minor league performance this
year, we had multiple teams winning championships
at the minor league level. There is a correlation
statistically in the past that shows that when
your minor leagues are dominant and they're winning
like ours are it. eventually pays off at the
major league level. I started looking at some
of our minor league players, Bill, and a quick
look. We're going to get to 2026 here in a second,
but McGonagall, Clark both made a name for themselves
this past season. Obviously, I mean, Clark had
the name before McGonagall popped up this season.
I think based on things we've heard, we're going
to see them in 2026. Josue Bersagno is another
name that's starting to pop up. He's a hitter,
first baseman, catcher. Bryce Rayner got injured.
We didn't get to see much from him. Still quite
a talent at the minor league level, but unfortunately
a lost season for him due to injury. Aaron Lorenzo
kind of took some steps back. Howie Lee kind
of took some steps back. Chris Rodriguez, too
young, didn't hear much from him. I think we're
going to see some deals coming up in the near
future. I think in December, names like Howie
Lee, names possibly like Lorenzo, Max Anderson
popped on the radar this year. I think we're
going to see those guys possibly involved in
some trades to get some pitching. That is my
hope or possibly get a hitter. I don't like what
the free agent market lends. I just don't think
there's anything there. It's very much like the
trade deadline. It almost echoes it to a degree.
I'm not looking forward like these these general
managers meetings I just don't think are going
to provide a ton of answers and based on what
we heard in our end of season Presser that Scott
did I don't think that Scott Harris and company
Have a desire to go out and spend big in this
offseason I think they think they're going to
get the improvements they need from process within
the organization and players within the organization
and I know I am clamoring and desiring another
bat that probably can come from within and is
probably a little greedy on my part wanting or
desiring that and I Echo your thoughts the free
agent Class is not looking very strong We are
seeing a day and age where more and more teams
are really keeping their players good players
within the organization It is interesting that
our guy, Alex Bregman, is opting out of his deal
and hitting the market again. I'm curious if
the Tigers make another stab at that or if they...
I don't think they will. I think that ship sailed.
You think they're jilted lovers and they... I
think it's a jilted lover deal. I don't think
they're gonna do it. I just don't. I still...
He answers so many needs for this team though.
A, third base, B, power. I think he'd play extremely...
I know Fenway's his ideal ballpark and where
his... best metrics happen. I think he would
be a wonderful addition for home games at Comerica.
I agree to it. I agree. It just doesn't seem
like it's going to work out. Like last season
seemed like it would have been the time to get
it done, right? Yeah. I just don't, I just don't
think it's going to work out. And I also wonder
like, is Bo Bichette off the table too? Cause
that's another guy that, you know, is out there
as a free agent possibility. I just don't know
if we're going to see a big splashy deal. Yeah
for for our Detroit Tigers. I just don't I mean
I'm looking across the you know first baseman
They're gonna be out there Alonzo. I think is
gonna opt out. I think from what I'm reading
but That could be dicey for him at 31 years old.
You've got a guy like Josh Naylor. Does he interest
you at all? No What about like a Carlos Santana
at the age of 40? No is going to be a free agent.
I mean, you're looking through this list. It's
like Paul Goldschmidt, 38 years old. You know,
I'm going through, this is the first basement.
So then all of a sudden you start looking at
a guy like Torque saying, you know what? I'm
good with Torque. Torque's as good as Hoskins.
He's good as, you know, it's, it's a really bad
list once you get past Alonzo and maybe Naylor.
From there, the names are not great and the ages
aren't either. Yeah, yeah, 100 percent. I mean,
I start looking like, you know, the next spot,
the next thing that we could possibly say we
have a need would be third base. Right. So you
look for power there. You're right. Alex Bregman
sits atop the list. Peniel Suarez had a really
nice grand slam the other night to win a game
for Seattle. He's going to be 35 next season.
I don't know if we want to invest in him. No,
no, no, no, no. He might be on one year deals
going forward for a ton of money. Who knows?
Maybe you do a one year deal for him. I just
don't know if he's going to be that effective
in a ballpark like Detroit as a home park. And
you're looking at he wasn't his effectiveness
diminished. Yeah, the second to Seattle Yeah,
once he left the friendly or cozy confines of
Arizona So and can we just talk about something
that came out of that presser at the end of the
season and everybody's kind of talking about
it why we didn't make deals at the deadline his
name kind of was alluded to and Then they alluded
to the fact that it would have cost Troy Melton
to get him and you I don't want to trade Troy
Melton for Eugenio Suarez I'm sorry, but after
watching Milton Pitch, I loved what he had. Same.
I am calling BS on Scott Harris on this. OK.
There is no way that the Tigers were the only
team that were trying to acquire players that
wouldn't part with top 10 prospects because other
teams made deals and gave up. Prospects that
were well outside their top ten and their top
ten prospects I'm looking at you Yankees Mets
Padres weren't as good as the Tigers top ten
product prospects so either Scott Harris is lying
to us or He's he's bad at this negotiation Because
two things these both things cannot be true at
once that he was the only guy playing poker that
everybody was demanding his best chips. I mean,
we weren't on the phone when these things were
happening, right? So we don't know. And calling
him a liar is pretty bold on my part, but that
was the part of the presser that really, really
bothered me is you're saying to us that the only
pieces that people wanted were these top prospects
and obviously you wouldn't want to part with
those valuable assets. but there was nothing
else that could be done. I just, and then these
deals were done, Chet, and it wasn't even close
to the hall that, that he was talking about.
So I just, I, I'm very dubious on that. The other
thing I want to touch on while we're here, and
I have gone back and forth on this all season
and I did a deep dive on it this week. I listened
to the 97 won the ticket. They've got to find
a way to pay. Scoobal. They cannot let Scoobal
walk. There's no trade in this universe that
you're going to get equal compensation. I disagree.
I think they have to trade. I think they have
to. They're not going to pay him. Bill, he's
going to hit the open market. Boris has taken
him to the open market. You could offer, I swear,
I think you could offer 10 and... 10 years, 500
million. And Boris would be like, got to see
the open market anyways. Like, I just don't think,
I think any offer the Tigers make right now is
just pushing the number up. I think they're bidding
against themselves for right now. And then on
top of that, I think they're just pushing the
number up for what are the Yankees? What are
the Dodgers? What do those teams have to do to
sign him? Fine. I can totally wrap my head around
that. make the offer then. I need the Tigers
to do something in good faith so that I know
they made a good faith offer because I just don't
see it that way. One Tarrick Scoobel isn't worth
the multiple positions they could be able to
get and fill with that money and in possible
prospects in a trade. Okay, but let's talk about
the strength of this. That's my thinking. I'm
not disagreeing with you. However, we're talking
about how great this farm system is and, you
know, how... Actually, pitching is not... where
it's that great right now. I know. They're very
weak in that. They do need some. So I guess maybe
in a December pod when we revisit this after
the GM meetings, we can talk about what a potential
trade would look like or maybe a potential trade.
I think it's a good idea. We'll do that in December.
I think we'll look towards that coming in December.
I could be enticed with the good number of prospects.
I guess we just did our recap on war. And if
you don't have Tarek Schubel these past two seasons,
you're not sniffing the playoffs. The Tigers
play in the worst division in Major League Baseball
right now. Let's just run down this. You've got
the twins that are for sale or not for sale.
They have no leadership at the top. Their players
are either being sold off or often injured, meaning
they're good players. The White Sox, you've got
a owner that is selling that won't invest. And
then you've got the Royals who are by all metrics,
a small market team. They're competitive. They
were buyers. And then you've got the Guardians
who are your nemesis. So it's basically a three
team race in the AL Central is what you're getting
at. It's basically Tigers, Royals, Indians, and
Guardians, excuse me, Guardians. God, do one
more of those for this. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And so,
yeah, instead of competing like in the American
League East, where you really are competing against
four teams, you're really only competing against
two. And I mean, the Royals aren't going to invest
heavy. We know the Guardians aren't going to
invest heavy. They're going to keep their payrolls
low. Now is the time that the Tigers should become
the Goliath of this division and rattle off 10
straight. American League Central titles, and
the fact is we've had magical years, Chad, the
last two, and we don't have a division title
to show for it. No. And I don't know that they're
gonna get one next year. I mean, if Scubal is
traded, it's not gonna be, I don't think, for
Major League Ready talent, per se. Sure. And
the biggest thing we need outside of another
bat... is swing and miss guys. And actually that's
a far more pressing issue than getting that additional
bat. And are they going to get four swing and
miss guys, three swing and miss guys? I'll go
through, you know, I kind of sat here. I'm looking
at the free agent list. It's not good up and
down for offense next year. I mean, you're looking
at Bregman, third base Bregman, Suarez, everybody
else is Don't want Suarez is way up there in
age like Max Muncie de Jong Moncada It's nothing
sexy about the names on the rest of those, you
know And if you want an outfielder Let's suppose
and I don't know where you're gonna put them
because you got Riley Green Carrie Carpenter
and Meadows out there in the outfield Maybe bias
and centerfield Whatever you do with centerfield
Cody Bellinger is available Do you want to go
down that road right now? How about Lourdes Gurriel,
32 years old with a 2 .9 war this season? Rob
Refsnyder. I mean, these are the names that are
popping up that are available in the outfield.
Harrison Bader, Trent Grisham. I mean, none of
these. I can really, I can see you in your Detroit
Tigers Harrison Bader jersey next season. No,
Cedric Mullins, 31 years old at a three and a
half war this year. That's going to keep going
down every year now, for sure. Like it's just
not. Lou Bob? You want Louisa Robert? No. He's
28, but he's been a disaster for the past couple
seasons. And then you've got Kyle Tucker. He's
your big, he's 29, 8 .7 war. He's going to command
a massive deal. after the season he just had
for the Cubs. Word is around these parts, since
he was a Cub this year and that's where I live,
that he's cost himself quite a bit of money.
Yeah, I think he probably did because he slumped
off at the end of the season. But he and Bregman
are the top two names. Yeah, it just doesn't
turn me on. Like Bregman, that'd be great. OK,
he fits at third base. If we can get him. I just
don't think they're going after Bregman. So do
we want to talk about pitching free agency here?
I that that's the next thing on my mind. OK,
so now we talk about pitching. We have needs
there. So the big names that stick out to me,
you know, Chris Sale at 37 in a 10 war. I I like
Chris Sale, but he had some down years. He kind
of got back up to the top of the mountaintop
over the last two years with a Cy Young and then
but he's still not there. Right. Like you don't
want to go invest in Chris sale at 37 years old
right now. Talk about making yourself feel old.
The fact that Chris sale is 37. I know. I know.
It's unbelievable. I know. And so you could go
for a guy like Ranger Suarez at the age of 30.
You had a seven and a half war last year. You
could go for Framber Valdez at 32. You could
go for Dylan Cease at 30 years old. These guys
are all going to command. 25 to 30 mill a year
and multi -year deals to lock them up and I don't
know if I like that Well, this goes back to my
point that if you're gonna spend the money Yeah,
and I know we know I know we know what Flaherty
is going on. Yeah, just give it to the guy That's
your ace give it to scubal and he'll just keep
doing what he's done the last two seasons or
he won't You know, he he's already been through,
you know multiple surgeries. He's 28 will be
29 in the offseason. So. Here's my thing, though,
is I am 100 % convinced when looking out across
the baseball landscape that unless you get this
magic hall trading scuba, which I don't think
is going to happen, what I don't want to see.
And I may have just talked myself into the fact
that we have to sign him just looking at this
list of free agents. It's like it's just a lot
of stuff, you know. Well, anybody on here really
gets me really gets your juices flowing. And
where we need the swing and miss is not only.
Shota Imanaga could be a guy, but he's got a
mutual option. It's probably going to get picked
up by the Cubs, even though he had kind of a
rough season this year. He's not going anywhere.
Still quite good. And I think the Cubs are going
to pick that up. So after that, like your choices
are a bunch of guys who are cresting into their
mid thirties. I don't know. And another thing,
Chet, is that bullpens. The variance in a successful
bullpen versus a leaky bullpen year to year,
like last year, 2024, the Tigers bullpen was
the greatest strength of the team. 2025, it was
a huge weakness. I don't know that. pieces can't
be picked up because bullpens sure it's it's
not an exact science it's more like alchemy and
i feel like it's kind of just lightning strikes
right exactly you catch lightning in a bottle
and it's like we got a bullpen and that's just
how it works every season i mean i would love
the tigers to make a very very healthy offer
to kyle finnegan yeah i believe in will vest
and you know i still believe in my guy, Tyler
Holton, and also believe that Hanafi has some
good there. I believe Brandt Herter also has
some good. So there's some pieces there. They
still need the swing and miss guys, the high
velocity guys. And the guys that are available
for the bullpen pieces on free agency are equally
as rough as what we're seeing for the starting
pitching. And they're old. And they're old. I
mean, you're talking mid to late thirties on
a lot of these guys. Reza Iglesias, Robert Suarez,
Edwin Diaz. I mean, a lot of these guys have
options and whatnot. Like Andres Munoz would
be wonderful, but he has a club option and they're
not going to let Andres Munoz go. Evan Williams
at 31. Does he? Kenley Jansen at 38. Do any of
these names? make you say, yes, that's all of
these are a roll of the dice. Are you going to
have it next year or not? Jansen goes in the
Cedric Mullins category, and I know totally different
players, but those are guys that I would have
been interested in the past trade deadline, not
this off season. Like we've evolved beyond that.
And that's not necessarily what I'm looking for
at this point. So we know we need a third baseman.
We know we need bullpen help. We need to strike
out guys, right? Some swing and miss guys. And
we know we probably need, I would say, one starting
pitcher. If Flaherty re -ups, we need one. If
he doesn't, we need two. OK? Just to have some
depth. Well, yeah, because as great as he pitches,
Ree Solson has not proven to be a healthy baseball
player. And from what we saw in the end of season
presser, just Scott Harris just doesn't look
like he's going to make a splashy deal. You know
who I could see him signing? He won't come here
because he's on the west coast and likes it,
but like a - like a Kyle Hendrix. I could see
him rolling the dice on a Kyle Hendrix and signing
a guy like that to bring in a professor as a
number five starter just to fill some space.
Wouldn't that be gross? Oh, God. You think Justin
Verlander might go back for one more year at
the age of 44? I mean, I'm looking at some of
the guys on the list, Patrick Corbin. I mean,
these are not sexy. So we know he needs a starting
pitcher. We know he needs bullpen help. We know
we need a third baseman and a bat in the lineup.
Is a trade going to be the path for that? Well,
if they're going to maximize Scoobles value outside
of him re -upping, which I agree with you, Boris
is going to force the hand. But I still think
you make an offer that they can't refuse and
you do it for four. Probably right. Your four
years, 50 million or something insane, 60 million.
I don't know. And you do it on your terms, but
also meet them on their terms with opt outs.
You know, you keep them until he's 30, maybe
and then you, you let him go do his thing. You
front load it and you have to have to do something
in good faith on it because we just talked about
it. I don't think there's value in trading. Meaning,
if you don't trade them and you don't get anything
for them, there's no value. That's the worst
case scenario. However, you don't re -sign them
and you don't trade them, and he just walks and
you get a comp pick? Yeah. But the same vein,
everybody knows what the Tigers are up against.
Yeah. And are they really going to get fair value
in that? So I still think he plays for you. He's
in your clubhouse. You have more access to him
than any other club. Get Boris on the phone,
get Scoobal on a plane or excuse me, get them
both sitting in Detroit or you go out to meet
them and you sit down and you just say, how do
we make this click? How do we avoid you hitting
the three agent market? So. Yeah, I one other
thing that I want to ask you here before we wrap
this thing up. What are you looking forward to
the most in the twenty twenty six season Tigers
surviving that initial road trip? I can see like
a two in ten start and I can see not a lot of
moves being made by this front office. And the
kids won't be up at that point in terms of Clark.
You aren't going to get McGonagall and Clark
until after service time. Yeah. And so you're
going to get, they'll come up in like the middle
of April or beginning of May at the earliest.
I think March and April is going to be rough
for us. And I think I'm saying this like back
to the future, like future Marty McFly saying
to, you know, past Marty McFly. You and I are
going to need to temper Tigers fans expectations
because I think it's going to be a rough start.
I think if they're playing 500 baseball, that's
going to be about it. And I think the media is
going to latch on to, hey, this is who the Tigers
are. Like the first hundred games of 2025 and
the end of 2024 isn't the real Tigers. The real
Tigers is this middling team that can't hit and
presses and can't pitch and doesn't have swing
and miss guys. And then I think by the time the
weather starts warming up and they have a few
good home stands at Comerica. I think we'll see
the real Tigers. I'm looking forward to just
seeing McGonagall and Clark coming up and playing
at some point. That's what I'm looking forward
to. And if, if, if you want to throw one more
thing in there, I'm looking forward to the progression
or the maturation of Troy Melton. I think he's
going to be a great starter in our organization.
I think we're going to love him. His, his demeanor.
on the mound all the way down to how he carries
himself. And then his pitching repertoire is
wonderful. I think he could, I mean, I'm not
saying he's going to be Tarek Scugel, but I think
he could be our next it thing. Great. In the
Detroit pitching staff. So I'm looking forward
to those things, Bill. All right. Got to have
stuff to look forward to, man. We've got to have
stuff to look forward to. Was I too negative
in mine? No, no, but I I got where you were going.
It's gonna be a rough start to the season You're
looking forward to the smoother sailing later
on in the months of May and maybe they start
on fire You know playing away from home and you
know, I could be terribly wrong on that like
after I said it I'm like boy, that's kind of
a glass half empty approach But the schedule
makers did them no favors opening on the west
coast again The good news is it's one west coast
trip less that you have to do later in the year
So you might as well just get out and agree with
that And the weather will be dicey in the Midwest
at that time, so you might as well go and get
the games out of the way and we'll see what happens.
Well, I think that's it. I think we've put a
bow on the 2025 season. Your Detroit Tigers were
87 and 75, finished in second place in the AL
Central. One game out of first. They went to
the AL Division Series to the fifth game and
lost to the Mariners, who are currently on the
doorstep of a World Series appearance. They beat
the Guardians, their nemesis in the wild card.
And all in all, I think it was a successful season.
Bill, your thoughts? Absolutely. It was a successful
season and we can nitpick all we want. Did it
end the way we absolutely wanted it to? No. But
it was fun and exciting along the way. I mean,
they've gone the distance in the ALDS two seasons
in a row. And when you look at the division,
there's no reason to think they can't. capture
the American League Central moving forward. Moves
still need to be made. No team is perfect, but
their needs, the Tigers, are far less than a
lot of Major League Baseball. I would say they're
one of the top three to five organizations currently.
So there's a ton to look forward to and I can't
wait for catchers and pitchers to report in February.
Signing off for litter box Detroit Tigers for
the moment. We will be back with you somewhere
around the General Manager's meetings in December.
Everybody have a good fall and winter. And baseball
will be back in a couple of months. See you all
later. Thanks for listening. Go Tigers. All right.
That's going to do it for this episode of the
Litterbox, a Detroit Tigers podcast. Thanks for
hanging out with us. We're Bill and Chet. We'll
be back soon with more Tigers Talk. If you're
enjoying the show, be sure to follow or subscribe
on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. And hey, if you got a minute,
leave us a quick review. Till next time, Go Tigers!