You're listening to the litter box a Detroit
Tigers podcast with your hosts Chet West and
Bill Patterson Here's what's on deck for this
episode Torres seems and I'm asking you this
it seems like he feels like he's done enough
to get the next contract and bullpen guys Here
today, gone tomorrow. I mean, you don't know
what you're getting. Because he's back at Irma's
Place, one of the greatest restaurants in the
United States. Maybe the change of scenery isn't
what Chris Paddock needed. Welcome back to the
Lirbox, the Detroit Tigers podcast. On this mic,
I am Chet. On the other mic, I have Bill, your
co -hosts. Bill, I am happy with getting three
out of four. Game four isn't over yet with the
twins, but I'm pretty sure that I feel okay going
on the road in a four -game set, grabbing three
wins. It wasn't always pretty. Win number three,
yesterday's game in game three was like watching
your drunk friend traverse the general admission
at an outdoor concert or something. It was ugly.
Falling all over the place yesterday, but we
ended up getting the win, which is what good
teams do against bad teams. Today, not so great.
First two games, you know, we had a great game.
We had a close one that went long What are your
general thoughts at this point eyeballing an
important series coming up this week against
the Astros? We saw exactly what I was hoping
to see the last week from the Tigers and here
is where I'm gaining perspective on this Not
only did they go to Minnesota and win on Thursday
for three and then shut the twins out Friday,
7 -0 in those garish outfits. They're not even
uniforms. We'll talk about that in a minute.
One yesterday, eight to five today doesn't look
great, but before that they took two and three
against the White Sox, and before that they took
two out of three against the Angels. So if we
go back to the first week of August when they
only won one, which was still considered good
in Philadelphia, and then came home and only
won one out of three against the Twins. I don't
want to say it's a 180, but I will say it's about
as close to. And this team seems to be clicking
as well as possible before this home series against
the Houston Astros, upcoming at Comerica tomorrow
through Wednesday. And then they've got the Royals,
athletics and Royals, and that closes the month.
I feel good about... everything. I mean I still
don't like what happened at the trade deadline
and I know that's on the tip of your mind as
well. I will say this thank God for Dylan Dingler
because if he weren't showing like he's showing
things would really get ugly. I will give a second
star to our good friend Javier Baez. Not so much
for what he's doing at the plate but what he's
doing playing shortstop and centerfield because
the Tigers seemingly don't have anybody. Outside
of Trey Sweeney to do one of those two and Trey
Sweeney cannot get out of this organization quickly
enough in my opinion third star I guess the combined
two -headed monster of Will Vest and Kyle Finnegan
Outside of that this team is still pretty lifeless
Torres seems and I'm asking you this It seems
like he feels like he's done enough to get the
next contract, or... Where would you have got
that from? Maybe my thoughts earlier this week
and the next string? I agree. I mean, you know
how I feel about that. I think he's laying it
down a little bit. Like, I think he's kind of...
I don't know what happened to him, but his patience
is gone. He seems like he's playing the infield
at three -quarters speed. So, but it's kind of
seen that way. I'll see. He's just not a fast
man anymore. You know, I also think he plays
at the same speed Sweeney does, which Sweeney
is not a big league shortstop. It's driven me
crazy or drove me crazy. How do you want to phrase
it? All season, how slow? It's almost like he
backs up on balls like a little leaguer. Every
throw he makes is like a 50 -50, whether the
guy's safe or out. And I just, there's no way
the Tigers were ever going to fleece the Dodgers.
Nobody fleeces the Dodgers. And so I think we
got a good piece in the Jack Flaherty deal. I
think we also got a very, very bad piece. And
I think the bad piece is Trey Sweeney. There's
a lot of teams right now who have Jack Flaherty's
on their roster. Who would love to have traded
Jack Flaherty's. We took one off of the Twins'
hands in Chris Paddock. We gave very little up
for it. But paddock has been nothing short of
a disaster And a lot of those teams what they
end up doing in a guy's final year if they can't
trade a guy like that at the deadline they just
let them go and hope somebody picks the contract
up and If that doesn't happen if they put them
on waivers and nobody picks up the contract then
they just drop them they just you know, he's
gone and they and then a team can pick them up
for the minimum the other teams responsible for
the money I I don't know 100 % if Chris Paddock
is going to get it back or not. I mean, we looked
at a guy by the name of Matthew Boyd a few years
back and thought he'd never get it back. And
he's now like a practically staff ace for the
Cubs this season outside of Shota. So these guys
can come back. They can find it eventually. They're
veterans for a reason. And it's usually because
they'll make the adjustments to stay successful.
But you can look across the free agent landscape.
There's a lot of deals that aren't panning out
right now. I just don't know that I want to see
Chris Paddock this season pitching anymore. He
has been absolutely rolled by his former team
twice now in both outings. Now, maybe they got
the intel on him. I don't care if he was effective.
I think he'd be able to get by him. In regard
to the rest of the team, Trey Sweeney, I, you
know, he's still young. I just don't think he's
a major league ballplayer yet. He doesn't have
it yet. I think he needs a lot more. He needs
to figure it out. And I think he got maybe rushed
a titch. Maybe it was kind of one of those things
where Tiger's like, hey, we got this guy in this
trade. We flipped him. Let's see what we got
towards the end of last season. And he showed
up. He showed some skill. I mean, he went 2 -4
yesterday at a nice little game. and came up
pretty big in some situations late in an ugly
game. But I'm willing to give him more time.
I don't need to rush him out of the organization.
We have spots and third, you know, and triple
A that he can play for a little while. He's probably
just going to be an orgy guy from here on out.
The problem is what's coming up behind him. Yeah,
it's going to bump him right out of there. Short
stop. You just sit him down in triple A and use
him as an injury, you know. I'm not saying DFA
him or anything like that. There's no point.
There's no but the fact that he's up there playing
now bothers you which is when we're in crunch
time and I get that I'm on board with that. Okay,
that that's I think the sample size is I've seen
enough. You've seen enough. We've all seen in
there now. Yeah, and This again comes back to
dumpster diving on free agency. Yeah, I I will
say though the free agent market It's not looking
that pretty now. It's not holding Meaning that
what? Exactly. Like, these guys that got signed,
I mean, Eugenio Suarez. Take a look at him. You
know what he's done this August since the Mariners
went out and made the big splash to grab him?
He's betting 135. A big bag of nothing. You know
why? A huge bag of nothing. Because he went from
controlled environment to a pictures park. that
is notorious, even though he played there before,
but I could have forewarned the Mariners on this.
By the way, he's still Eugenio Suarez. This isn't
Juan Soto. Eugenio Suarez wouldn't be a journeyman
third baseman if he was any - if he was better.
That might have been a bad comparison, because
Juan Soto is actually not doing great right now
either, but you know what I'm saying. He's more
Eugenio Suarez than he is Juan Soto. But the
- abnormal result for Juan Soto is to be Eugenio
Suarez. The normal result for Eugenio Suarez
is not to perform like the good Juan Soto. He's
a middling player at best, okay? And everybody
treats him like they're getting Aaron Judge or
something in a trade. Give up the farm for the
guy. If we had traded one of our top five for
this guy and he did what he's doing now, the
fan base would be up in arms. They'd be like,
oh, this was the dumbest thing they could have
done. And you know what, when it happened, everybody
would have applauded, but the aftermath would
have not been pretty. Another guy, Ryan Halsey,
probably the second or third best closer in the
whole entire, in the second or third best reliever
at the trade deadline. Mason Miller number one.
Yep, Halsey to Finnegan probably three. Well,
John Duran's in there, too You're forgetting
about Duran from the twins, but but you know
that Finnegan was higher on my list I know he
was higher on your list, but overall Consensus
I'm sure it was something like Miller Duran and
Halsey you could flip -flop Halsey and Duran
probably anyways Ryan Elsie's been a disaster.
He's blown three straight saves in the month
of August Halsey is oh in three This is a closer
area of eight point four four. He has seven strikeouts
and seven appearances. The guy can not get anybody
out. He's got three blown saves in another game
where he gave up a couple runs. I don't think
he blew a save, but it's it's been a nightmare
over there and the Mets. You can talk about the
Tigers having trouble and struggling. There's
a lot of teams that were. that were at the top
of their division, that were, you know, in the
top four or five in the power rankings, that
are now absolutely struggling. The Dodgers can't
seem to get their feet under them, having an
awful August. Mets, awful August, terrible August
right now. Tigers were but have bounced back
nicely in the last two weeks against subpar competition,
but that's what you got to do. So, you know,
not everybody's the Brewers. The Brewers are
on some magical carpet ride right now that I
can't even explain. They have a ton of young
talent, but I have no clue how they're making
it work right now. They are winning games they
shouldn't win. I mean, they've won 10 in a row
twice now, or 10 in a row plus twice now. So
it's 14 and they just... are in an extra means
game right now. There you go. I mean. So it could
be 15. My point being the trade deadline deal
with these guys that are going to be free agents
that are ending their contract. This is a complete
and total crap shoot. These, especially with
bullpens. I mean, bullpen guys here today, gone
tomorrow. I mean, you don't know what you're
getting with a bullpen guy. It's just way too
inconsistent. And you don't know what you're
getting with a middling player like Eugenio Suarez.
Just way too inconsistent results. And like you
said, it could be the environment. How much does
the environment dictate how well these guys do?
So on that, I've got a couple questions for you.
Great rant, by the way. I give you like an A
minus. You didn't like how I didn't get it going
when you wanted me to, but I get it. I was trying
to give us some time to get through the game
before I ranted, but I think we said all we wanted
to about the Twins series at this point. Unless
you want to touch on anything else. Take a breath,
buddy. I'm taking a breath. I'm taking a breath.
All I was going to say is, what do we think Ryan
Helsey misses most about St. Louis? Is it his
wife, his family, the free Budweiser and Bud
Light? He gets everywhere he goes. The happiness
of these players has something to do with it,
Bill. I think it's the toasted ravioli, personally.
You want to look at a different free agency situation?
Look at Carlos Correa. Look what he's done since
he got up to use it. We talked about it in the
last pod. Because he's happy as a clam. Because
he's back at Irma's Place, one of the greatest
restaurants in the United States. Back at Irma's
Place. You and your food, you found, I mean,
look, whatever it is, he's happy playing where
he is again. And lo and behold, he looks like
Carlos Carrera from 2019 or whatever. I don't
remember the last time he was that great, but
he looks good. So initially, we were really hard
on Scott Harris and company for not doing what
we deemed enough at this deadline. and what we
called, and many others, I mean, trust us, we
weren't, meaning you and I, listeners, we weren't
unique in this dumpster diving, you know, the
Tigers really. No, I mean, it was what it was.
Hold on, the point is. Whether it was smart or
not, it's a whole different thing. Well, I gave,
I mean, what did we give at the time, like a
B minus C plus on it? I think it was like a B
minus C plus because we got Finnegan. And I would
say. And he's turned out to be great. I would
say it's closer to a BB plus at this point only
for Finnegan and the fact that any quality start
they get out of Morton and any quality start
they get out of Paddock is a bonus at this point
because the Tigers are still getting used to
this brave new world that we look at in Major
League Baseball that you can go into a season
like they did with seven starting pitchers in
theory, okay? Yeah. I'm bringing back a couple,
I'm talking about Montero, I'm talking about
Maeda, I'm also talking about Alex Cobb that
apparently he's still getting hip injections,
which - 15 million for the season. God, how did
we sign up for that job? We paid him 15 million
dollars to get about a million dollars worth
of hip injections. I'm sure Lloyds of London
is - There's definitely insurance policy out
somewhere. But anyway, my point with all this
is I give Scott Harris a higher grade now coming
out of it. You have to. And the only team that
I still applaud that went in guns blazing because
they had to. I think if they were going to win
the division is the Padres. Well, and look where
they are right now. They're taking over first
place in the NL West. I think it's the first
time they've been in first place in the NL West
this late in the season since 2010. Awesome.
I heard that the other day. That's crazy. So
that paid off. You either gamble big and you
go big or you don't want to just tickle it at
the trade deadline. You want to go big. And i
still think with the work stoppage i mean i'm
putting this like the tigers playoff odds at
this point cuz i'm on prospectus right now and
we're. Hovering around ninety nine percent right
now just to make the playoffs which is great
and so are the padres. And i have a feeling that
is we've documented and talked about before work
stoppage is inevitable possibly in you know going
into twenty twenty seven and the padres might
have done themselves. good service or or Going
putting all the chips on the table pushing it
all in and ending up and here's why chat The
Dodgers are gonna come out of whatever work stoppage
happens or whatever labor dispute happens Dodgers
are gonna be just fine Padres ownership's in
fighting. There's some shares being sold. There's
percentages trading. We're The Tigers are in
a different landscape than that of the San Diego
Padres. A, let's just talk about the division
right now where it sits currently. And I know
you share my thoughts on this, and so that's
why I can't wait for your comments. But you've
got the twins that were for sale. Now they're
not for sale, but they're selling. Well, they
got what they wanted. They sold the pieces off
to get a little financial help there. Oh, like
the Polhats needed the money, so. Well, I think
they just wanted to divest a little. Okay, well
they're still drawing the worst they've drawn
since target field open. Oh, yeah, and they wanted
they say they wanted a new fresh perspective
Yes, okay The Guardians are also drawing very
poorly despite the fact that they won the division
last year and they've been the dominant team
I mean think about this we're marveling over
the Brewers winning 14 straight They did lose
today in extra needs to the rest the last team
to go on this type of hot streak was the 2017
Indians at that time, but Guardians now. They
don't spend money. They develop from within.
The Royals, we don't know really what's going
on until they get their new stadium or don't
get their new stadium. And the White Sox are,
I would say, at least two, possibly three seasons
away from being a real threat to anybody else
that I mentioned in the division. So the Tigers
and Scott Harris were pretty smart to stay the
course. Let's say the labor dispute ends quickly,
which awesome. I mean, you and I are going to
not have a lot to talk about as podcast hosts.
That would be interesting. Yeah. Wow. You know,
the Tigers have a chance, and it's never happened
in my lifetime, and you're the same age as I
am, so it's never happened in your lifetime,
to actually look at this division and possibly
run away with it for the next six, eight, ten
years if... the chips fall their way, prospects
develop, and go forward. And that, Chet, is a
more exciting proposition to me right now than
being the Padres this year. I know I'm talking
out of both sides of my mouth because three weeks
ago I was barking to anybody, shouting from the
rooftops, do more, do more. And here's my point,
I think the long view could be the way to play
on this. That was long. So I gotta rant, you
gotta rant. I'm going to agree with a lot of
what you said, other than the fact that, well,
you know, the wild card is kind of the whole
CBA and what's going to happen with that. We
don't know what's going to happen. There's going
to be a, I mean, if I'm a betting man, it's a
salary cap. A lot of our concerns are, well,
we have this opportunity right now, but we really
kind of lucked into the opportunity at this juncture.
We never should have progressed to this stage
as an organization. Quickly as we did after Harris
took over the reins. I thought it was gonna be
a five -year rebuild for him It's got it's happening
too. I mean, yeah, but he inherited what was
a 10 -year rebuild and true That's true because
we had we were already rebuilding and rebuilding
and rebuilding when they signed him It was like,
oh here comes another five -year rebuild But
he's been able to do a lot more with a lot less
in a short short period of time He's had some
luck. He said some guys come up and do pretty
well but but In order to revamp our team to the
degree we would have had to I don't think the
chips were out there to do it I just don't think
the impact players were out there at this trade
deadline and we talked about this There were
a lot of guys that were there that were a lot
of what we already had So I think he did good
getting what he got I mean Chuckie Morton out
there winning another game the other night better
than nothing Chris Paddock? Well, sometimes you
take a gamble and lose. Maybe the change of scenery
isn't what Chris Paddock needed. Rafael Montero
came and closed out a game the other night in
a close game. I was rather shocked that he was
used in that situation, but what else did he
have? I am gonna say that we're in a decent spot
to maybe get a series in the postseason. When
I think about it, How would you roll a starting
pitching staff out in the postseason from what
you have to choose from right now? What would
your order be? That is a loaded question because
there's one of two things that have to happen.
If they're one of the two teams that get the
buy, it's a totally different scenario going
into a longer series than a three -game series.
If you go into a three -game series, you will
pray. And I mean, you pray that you play a big
market team. And here's why. It's going to give
you more time to get scubal out there twice.
Okay. All right. That's my theory right there.
Okay. So I would go scubal one, maize two, and
then I use a whole lot of chaos in every available
arm. to the point of, I'm pitching guys a third
of an inning by a third of an inning. I use empty
the cannon. So you're not pitching Flaherty in
the postseason. You're not pitching Melton in
the postseason. I'm pitching him in game two.
You're not pitching Charlie Morton in the postseason.
Starting them? Hell no. Starting them. Sorry.
So game one. That's my second H -bomb. Game one
is Scubal. Yeah. Game two is going to be Mize.
And then you're chaos from there. In a three
game series? Yes. Okay, if we got about a seven
game Then I would probably go more conventional
and try Flaherty in the three hole there and
then duplicate that again with the potential
it depends I need to see the schedule chat because
I'm pitching at this point if scoops is saying
that he's You know not interested in signing
but he's this warrior and competitor great. Show
me I'm gonna pitch you on three days rest and
This is where because I'm getting hurt and Jackson
job getting getting hurt really come back to
haunt us because I I mean I never saw Flaherty's
in number two and now I think a lot of people
did or maybe thought he was because he was getting
paid like a two. He's paid like a two but outside
of that he is not a two. I think he's a In all
rotation, I think he's a four. I would put Melton
in before him to be dead honest and see if you
can catch fire with him in the postseason. I'd
like to see him in a few more starts and I think
we're gonna, but. Well, hold on, that's a slippery
slope though for the fact that the less. At bats
that Melton shows the better. He could potentially
be in the postseason You don't know when they're
gonna pick up on them So interesting subtext
to this is and this is just a little caveat listeners
See if Melton pitches at all against the Red
Sox and Yankees in the month of September Because
those are two likely opponents that we are gonna
face outside of the Guardians outside of that
Everybody else's National League or teams that
will not qualify for the playoffs. So what would
you do differently? Nothing past two starters
basically right now that you would trust outside.
So my frustration with Scott Harris is this.
Here we are the best team in baseball for the
last year. And it's true. By record, they are
the best team in baseball year over year. We're
in the exact same position. We were one year
ago, and we still have no starting pitching depth
And I'm just wondering did he not go for it or
he just figured Flaherty's it Flaherty's good
enough. He'll get us there Maybe well gosh, I
don't know Chad I mean let's work our we need
our interns to work their magic and try to effort
Scott see what Get Scott Harris on the pod here,
and we'll ask the man himself. I don't know how
you think he's going to be enough to get you
over. I think they're counting on Reese Olson.
They're counting on Jackson Job. They had a rotation.
I would have much rather had them as backup options,
but Reese, no. But Jackson Job, yeah, he was
a little young coming out and thinking he was
going to get a starting gig that he was going
to hold all season long. Sure. Mize has been
a nice surprise. If it wasn't for Casey Mize,
we'd be, I don't know where we'd be right now
with our rotation. It wouldn't look good at all.
No, not at all. And the other thought on that
is that going into the season is that Montero,
Maeda, or Cobb should have been able to get you
innings at some point. Like, you have to think
all logic in statistical analysis, whatever,
you know, Algorithm they ran said that they would
get X amount of innings from those three individuals
Yeah, and they didn't get anything from those
three individual. Actually Montero did yeoman's
work He's the one that I would give kudos to
on this and I hope he's on the 40 -man and I
expect him to be and I think we're gonna see
more chaos and just Madness. Okay Now, that's
not my biggest concern in the playoffs, actually.
Can I tell you what my concern is? You gave me
a little, you shot me a little message this past
week. And if this is what I think you're going
to talk about, it's how you feel about our lineup
and AJ. Is that it? Or is that something different?
No, I don't really have questions with AJ, perhaps.
He's doing the best he can with what he has.
OK, all right. That was a little different than
you gave me the other day, but all right. One
question is why they can't figure out a leadoff
hitter. And why he keeps messing with it because...
Do you think we have one on this roster? We do
not. And that is where I'm coming to AJ's defense.
That's why he keeps messing with it. I would
do some real unconventional stuff at this point.
Meaning, I would go back and look at... I mean,
and I know the answer, it's Torres. And he only
combats second. He's a second baseman. I mean...
The Tora signing is still the most befuddling
thing and I know we've gotten positive word out
of him. The first two thirds of the season. You
were so happy with him. But he's kind of screwed
up the season because he's delayed Colt Keith's
development. He occupied that position. The Tigers
got super lucky with Torque coming back to like
what we thought Torque could be. Yeah. But if
I had to bat somebody lead off In this lineup
and you're gonna cringe when you hear me say
this. I think Dingler's the only guy that I trust
at this point and I don't know that that's the
right thing to do either. I'll tell you what
I don't like and they did it in a couple games
in this series. The leadoff hitter is is a problem
because we just don't have one. I don't know
how he solves that. I mean, it's musical chairs
at that spot, it seems. Colt's kind of taking
it more or less because he's probably got one
of the better approaches on the team. But I can't
stand that we are putting Kerry Carpenter and
Riley Green back to back in this lineup at three
and four. It's two lefties back to back. It kind
of creates a little bit of an issue. if they
separated those guys and put torque in the middle
like he did today, then it makes it a little
more difficult. And I've heard multiple people
mention this. Nobody's happy about this situation.
And that was a weird deal. Like it's just as
I don't know if it's he'd rather he's trading
the back to back lefty lefty for the three and
four spot in the lineup. And he doesn't want
to put one of those guys at fifth, but. Put Torque
in that cleanup spot in between the two of them.
It works pretty well, I think, over the long
haul. But he backs them up together and it makes
it a little easier on the other team with pitching
matchups and so forth. Especially since Kerry
Carpenter is a totally different hitter against
lefties. Do you know what it smells like? What's
that? 1 .50 a .m. before the 2 a .m. bars are
about to close on a Saturday night. It smells
like desperation. Like desperation. Alright,
I don't have a whole lot more on the Tigers other
than this is going to be a pivotal series against
the Astros and I like the pitching matchups given
how much we've... I'd be curious to see how we
do it, you know, against their pitching. It will
matter. Those matchups are going to matter. Yeah,
so we've got Flaherty, Scoobs and Morton. The
only way it would be better is if we had Mize
in one of those positions and Flaherty not in
any of those positions. That being said, it is
what it is. We will see. We've previewed that
for you, Tiger fans, and we appreciate each and
every one of you listening, so thank you. Chet,
any other final thoughts before we sign off?
We're gonna clip it there. We will talk to you
guys after the Astro series because I have a
feeling this one might rile us up a little bit
more. I don't know if we're gonna be able to
get two out of three from the Astros. And I'm
sure we'll have some opinions after we play them.
Everybody enjoy the start of your week? Go Tigers!
All right, that's gonna do it for this episode
of the Litterbox, a Detroit Tigers podcast. Thanks
for hanging out with us. We're Bill and Chet.
We'll be back soon with more Tigers Talk. If
you're enjoying the show, be sure to follow or
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you get your podcasts. And hey, if you got a
minute, leave us a quick review. Until next time,
Go Tigers!