This is the Litterbox, a Detroit Lions podcast
with your hosts, Chet West and Bill Patterson.
Welcome to the Detroit Lions Litterbox. And it
is with a somber tone that your hosts, Billy
P and Chet talk about the Thanksgiving Day. loss
to the Green Bay Packers who are now 3 -0 in
the NFC Norris and if Les the Bears sweep the
Packers the division is over. The Lions are mathematically
out of it and it's going to be very difficult
for them to recover from this. The only saving
grace is that Green Bay still has to travel to
Denver who is definitely one of the three best
teams in The AFC, the Lions, came up just a bit
short against the Packers. They lost 31 -24.
And depth and lack thereof was again a reoccurring
theme. What say you? First and foremost, apparently
the new thing to do in Chicago is to tear your
shirt off and jump around the locker room. I
couldn't believe what I saw Ben Johnson do after
their win yesterday. Good win for the Bears.
But I'm absolutely shocked that I saw that happen
and I wanted to make sure we address that right
off the bat on the show today. Do you know it
dates back to his high school? Awesome. Sweet
for Ben. And they won like two or three state
championships and he's some country dude. You
know how into country I am. Yeah. Meaning I,
you know, I like the school guys for Ryan Adams,
but not - Yeah, yeah. pop garbage. Anyway, one
of those guys was his high school teammate as
well. Ah, okay. And he does it with his band
before they go on stage every show. Here's the
deal. It's love that the Bears and the city of
Chicago have a team that is somewhat respectable
again. On that note, they have played one of
the weaker schedules I've seen in quite some
time and they have been so fortunate. To get
some of these teams at the right time. They got
the Cowboys at the right time They got the Eagles
at the right time. They got the commanders at
the right time It's kind of incredible if you
look up and down their schedule bill look up
and down their schedule It's crazy when they've
gotten to play some of these teams and it's the
difference between a first -place schedule I
understand I understand that but what I'm saying
is let's not get too excited if you're a Bears
fan right now No, I get it. They're nine and
three. It's great. Great defense of all time
They got five. They have five games left. And
these are going to be some of their most challenging
games of the season. So we'll see what happens.
I'll be curious to see how they end the season.
They have nine wins right now. OK, you said a
lot. Which is incredible. I want to just make
a couple of comments. Yes. One. is there ever
a bad time to play the commanders this year?
No, there never is. To the t -shirt references,
I have a 1985 Chicago Bears t -shirt that says
greatest defense ever for the listeners that
can't see it. Those are in Bears gear now because
he has completely jumped ship on our Lions for
the season. I've lived in Chicago longer than
I ever did Detroit. And then last point on this
is if you're a Lions fan and want them to make
the playoffs, You better be cheering for the
Bears because it's probably true. The Packers
are now three and oh in the division. The Bears
are one and one. Excuse me. The Bears are one
and two and the Lions are also one and two. Our
choices as to who we cheer for at this point
narrowed down. In your Minnesota Vikings, J .J.
McCarthy is now in concussion protocol, so they're
starting whom? I think it's going to be the kid
from Minnesota. What's his name? Brosmer? Yeah,
Brosmer. Oh, Lord. So hoping that the Vikings
pull a rabbit out of the hat is probably not
realistic. So let's talk a little bit about the
game. You want to get back to the Lions is what
you're saying. I get it. You asked me a question.
What's going on? What's happening? You know,
I don't I think for me, Bill. And I'm going to
return a question here in a minute. A lot of
what I see happening out there is on the defense
a little bit. We had one game recently against
the Eagles where we were like, oh, the defense
was incredible. I don't know about that. After
watching the Eagles last couple of weeks, I'm
wondering if maybe their offense is just really
struggling right now. We kind of got the benefit
of holding a struggling offense to 16 points
right as they started their massive struggle.
One of the things that bothers me right now about
what I'm seeing is we seem very inflexible with
our strategy on defense. This man defense. How
would you grade our defense, Bill? Top to bottom,
what would you say? Do we have... The most talented
players in the league in our defensive backfield
r &d line our linebackers. Do we have a middle
of the road? Do we have are we bad in some areas?
What would you think? How would you break our
defense down? We're a B minus and I would be
minus Elevate that grade of Kirby Joseph had
played at any point in the last you give it what
a B You'd say we're about a B defensive curve
playing. I mean, he's an all -pro safety And
yeah, quite frankly the only guys that are really
playing above average There are Brian Branch
and Jack Campbell. Everybody else is just a guy
out there. Sure. The PFF grades support that.
I think Branch has to do too much without his
running mate back there. I think Thomas Harper
has been a nice story. Second year player from
Notre Dame, number 12, but he is not a replacement
level player when you're losing a Kirby Joseph.
And so again, this comes back to depth. Why Brad
Holmes was allergic to signing another pass rusher.
Opposite Aiden Hutchinson and Brad we weren't
asking you to sign Myles Garrett. We were asking
you to sign somebody other than Marcus Davenport
and Josh Paschal. And by the way, Marcus Davenport
played and I am looking down the box score right
now. He doesn't show. He doesn't show. He didn't
do anything. He didn't have a tackle. He played
a total of 23 snaps and he did, he kind of just
sat there. He didn't do much out on his edge
there. So I get where you're going with that.
He was kind of man, like, I didn't even know
he was playing until we got halfway through the
first half. I'm like, oh, Marcus Davenport's
out there. The Packers did a great job eliminating
the interior. So Roy Lopez, DJ Reader, and Tylek
Williams were all non -factors. And I'm sorry,
but our guy, Bob Muhammad, was a great story.
But there's a reason he's a journeyman at age
30 in the NFL, and the book's out on him, you
know? A couple other things that were kind of
just eye -opening. We saw Vahki not only playing
special teams, but coming in in dime packages.
So he's back to what he was doing when he was
in Utah. Teron Arnold was back. He was good,
I thought. Amique Robertson played as well as
he could. But we miss Kirby Joseph back there
and, and Brad Holmes' reluctance to build edge
depth or to provide another weapon outside of
Aiden Hutchinson is ruining itself. And I just,
I'm really, I think Brad thought he was the smartest
guy in the room. And I've already talked about
the 2024 draft and what a whiff that was. And
if you're going to trade the capital that was
traded again for Isaac Cole. Tesla, and then
have him have a stat line, two catches for 35
yards. He did have a touchdown, but outside,
Tom Kennedy, TK85, had more targets and more
catches than Isaac Koleslaw did, Chet. Jared
Goff had nobody to throw to. Jameson Williams,
seven catches, 144 yards, had a long of 44 touchdown.
He was great. He did drop that fourth down pass,
but, I mean, there was some trickeration as well,
and I'll get into that in a minute, where Montgomery
threw a perfect pass to Jared Goff, and he just
dropped it. Goff's not playing like himself,
and part of the reason is offensive line depth.
Can you talk a little bit about the surprise
at center for this game? Yeah, you know, I didn't
realize that Glasgow wasn't going to be playing.
I see that Mr. Colon got to play, and... He immediately
rolled up on a one Amon Ra Saint Brown within
the first couple series of the game and knocked
Amon Ra out for the for the game. Not his fault.
I mean, these things just happen, but it sort
of stunk to see that and Cologne struggled. He
he did. He was as effective as Glasgow, put it
that way, which may be more indicative of how
useless Glasgow is at the center position at
this point. But so Wednesday before the game,
we got news that our guy, Frank Ragnow, is coming
out of retirement when he plays, whether it's
this week against the Cowboys, the week following
against Matthew Stafford and the Rams. We don't
know that yet. Is it helpful? Yes. And I was
accused of being a wet blanket and negative bill
because everybody else on our Lions text chains
was doing cartwheels over this. And my point
was this. If you lose the Packers game, the division's
already over, so then you're fighting for a wild
card. Does he help and is he an upgrade over
Graham Glasgow? Absolutely. But the fact it remains,
he retired for a reason, and what's to prevent
him from retiring again? And how long is it going
to take the team to assimilate? back to him.
And again, I think when 53 guys are in perfect
health, which is never going to happen in the
NFL, Brad Holmes can assemble a good roster.
But the difference between Brad Holmes and a
less need or Howie Roseman is that he doesn't
build a 53 man roster. He's good at building
a 38 man roster or a 40 man roster. And he's
really struggled. and gets cute trading away
valuable picks that could be depth pieces. And,
you know, I'm real concerned that the window
is closing on this Lions team. The window is
probably closing for this season. I'm not gonna
give up on them for the future. I'm not gonna
give up on this window, this... Super Bowl window
everybody wants to talk about. I think this season's
been a rough one. You had total turnover in the
coaching staff. You lost an all pro center who
is now coming back and let's see what happens
with that. I am concerned about the health of
Jared Goff. The guy is literally his time to
throw stats are abysmally low. He gets about
two and a half seconds to throw. We had one pass
over 20 yards in this game. We were down. We
were playing from behind. We had one pass over
20 yards. We at least had eight attempts over
10 yards. That's better than what we were doing.
We didn't throw too many balls behind the line
of scrimmage like we did in the previous week
against the Giants. We had a ton of short, 12
short passes over the middle. Within 10 yards
that's just indicative of hot routes and needing
to get rid of the ball He doesn't have time our
pass blocking stats are terrible across the board
our PFF grades are awful. I watched Taylor Decker
Commit the ultimate sin and he just whiffed on
Micah Parsons on a block in this game, and it
was I would be embarrassed if I was Taylor Decker.
You're all pro left tackle. I get it. Mike Parsons.
Good. OK, he's great. You whiffed so badly that
you almost got your quarterback killed. That's
the type of thing that when Jared Goff drops
back to throw and he's got that in the back of
his mind that his left tackle can't cover his
backside anymore, he's going to be happy feet.
How are you mentally getting over that? That's
amazing. Goff can even drop back and pass a ball
at this point. So. I see that stuff. And then
I look at the Packers, you know, there when Jordan
Love dropped back under pressure, hit three and
a half seconds to throw the ball under pressure.
That's amazing. How does he have that much time?
Well, we'll go back over to our defense. Bill,
is the man defense good for this group of players?
I asked you about what you thought of the quality
of our defense because I'm curious to know, can
you run man defense with the quality we have
out there and the ability and the skill sets
of these players? I don't think you can. No,
to answer your question in short, I think Kelvin
Shepherd's lack of experience being the D coordinator
and being married to this man to man is costly.
We have no flexibility. Well, it's also costly
for the fact that you and I both think highly
of Aiden Hutchinson. Is he Micah Parson's Miles
Garrett level? No, but he's the next tier down,
which is good enough. The problem is he needs
another guy to help him. And for whatever reason,
the Lions thought that Marcus Davenport and Josh
Paschal were the answers. They've even slid Aleem
McNeil over to one of the edge spots, which is
It weakens you in two areas, Chet, because then
you're taking one of your best run stuffers and
moving them to the edge, which isn't a natural
position. So no, I don't think this works. And
do you think my B minus was harsh? I mean, what
did you? No, I think it was, I think you were
way above. I think they're about a C plus ability
wise across the board and you cannot run man.
Every play and be that dedicated to a man defense
when you do not have players of a high level
of skill We don't have a D back who is a high
level of skill. We do not have one. We don't
have a corner That's a high level of skill you
put those guys on an island in man and they just
get beat up game in and game out That we could
have JC horn and ps2 back there And if the pass
rush isn't getting home and Jordan Love or or
Marcus Mariota or Jalen Hurts are allowed a lot
of time to throw, they're going to get picked
apart. I mean, there's a problem there. It is.
I will give you your pass rush issues, but there
is a product of this man defense and the predictability
of it. Sure. Offenses can set up and play against
to stymie a pass rush. For instance, if you're
a man D. And you want to keep those edge rushers
at home or keep them from going full on pursuit
throw screen passes all day long out into the
flat. And that's what these teams are doing to
us. Run the ball up the gut all day long if that's
what you want to do. Josh Jacobs, Saquon Barkley.
You can flip that ball out to those guys and
our pass rush is instantaneous. It's just instantly
mitigated. Yeah. And we don't have now if you
have a I don't know. Fred Warner, okay, you had
a Fred Warner in your linebacking core that can
cover a running back cover a tight end Like a
d -back can you can do that all day long? You
can rely on those linebackers to pick those guys
up. We don't have that We don't have a linebacking
core that can cover this one their life. We have
one Who we can one Campbell but Campbell in past
coverage though? He's okay, but he's not great.
He's good enough to cover a tight end or you
know, a back out of the slot, but he can't cover
a slot receiver. I mean, outside of Fred Warner,
very few can. Anytime this season when teams
have got out there around the edges on us, it's
hurt a lot and it spreads us out, takes that
man defense and it just puts people on an island.
And these are guys like Mollet, who's gone. But
now you've got Harper back there on an island.
You get the deep ball. You get the big play.
We get burned by that a lot. And it's just because
these guys are out there by themselves and they
don't have the ability to play man against Christian
Watson and dubs and all these other guys that
were getting thrown at us who aren't even that
great. I mean, let's be honest. Sure, sure. But
those guys shouldn't are guys that are playing
in the defensive backfield should not be starting
games in the NFL. The Packers' best receiver
is Jaden Reed, and he didn't even play. Those
are practice squad players that we have on our
defensive backfield right now. Amique Robertson,
for all the love we give Amique on this show,
Amique is not good, okay? Amique is like a backup
corner. That's it. He's not your one and he's
not your two. He's like a backup corner. He's
your slot corner. I mean, he's supposed to be
your third guy. You can call him your slot corner,
but he's not a guy you put out on an island against
one of these top receivers. No, which goes back
to your man -to -man versus his own. Exactly.
We don't have the ability. He needs help in the
drop off between a Kirby Joseph. to a Thomas
Harper is noticeable. And I give Thomas Harper
bouquets. I think he could be a nice piece, depth
piece for this team going forward. They ran Dubes
and Watson in motion on the goal line yesterday,
right before we got jobbed on the timeout with
the false start that everybody's raging about.
And yeah, that was a terrible call. Really odd
that they got that timeout in there. We don't
you know, we're not into blaming the rest for
every loss we take but that was a really bad
egregious call that basically gave the Packers
a do -over right there that They ran that against
man because they knew they're in man coverage.
They're gonna stay in man coverage These guys
are gonna stick with their guy and they ran that
route into the corner into the side right on
the pylon there and Our man coverage couldn't
stick with it. They need to switch into a zone
there Switch it up, but they didn't do it They
had a guy going underneath that just threw us
for a loop and that we have no defense that can
cover that if you're a man Doesn't work. I don't
care how good your guys are they have to be Superman
So why I think the window I I hope I'm wrong
on this and again, I'm not trying to be negative
But I just want to talk about what's coming down
Jared Goff is going to be very well compensated
next year. The Lions punted that down the line.
So he's going to be a cap hit of over 60 million.
And then you've also paid St. Brown. You have
paid Jamo. We've talked about Deckers in the
twilight of his career. He's playing Hurt. You've
paid Sewell. So the Lions are really kind of
up against it, Chet. And the fact that... You
probably have to make decisions on Graham Glasgow.
You have to make a decision on Taylor Decker.
So that's two offensive linemen. Hold on. Let
me keep going on this. David Montgomery is another
one you're going to have to make a decision on.
DJ Reader is out. Roy Lopez is probably out.
He's going to get paid. He's played well. Alex
Zaloni is out. I don't think Derek Barnes is
anything more than a replacement guy. I've never
been a Malcolm Rodriguez fan. So where I'm going
with, uh, Meek Robertson is going to be a free
agent as well, is you've got a lot of holes to
fill and I don't see a lot of youth outside of
maybe Tidelik and Aleem McNeil coming up from
within. You know, Christian Mahogany should be
one of the guards. Ratledge should be the other.
I don't know what they do with Miles Frazier,
but I don't think he's a left tackle caliber.
You don't draft a starting left tackle in the
fifth round like the Lions did. So I know the
Lions have a draft next year, but I'm starting
to sense that there's a lot more holes that need
to be filled than capital that might be available.
You know, Mel, I don't think you're the only
one out there starting to poke a few holes in
how the Brad Holmes regime has drafted over the
last year or two here. It's interesting when
you look at it to see that we're trying to fill
major spots on the O -line with third, fourth,
fifth round draft picks. That's going to be a
gamble. no matter how you slice it, they are
going to have to draft probably a left tackle
in the first round next year, I think. They're
going to have to take care of that position because
I don't think Decker is long for it at this juncture.
If they don't draft one, they're going to have
to find a free agent and there really isn't much
on the market right now coming up for that. Then
you're in the very small percentage zone of swinging
a trade, which I don't even know if homes can
handle that. I would trust him more to draft
one than anything else But you're gonna you know,
but then you got to start thinking about center
and rag now is rag now around for another two
to three seasons That'd be great. He's still
29 years old. I mean he could stick around for
a bit, right? Yeah. Oh Maybe we've got him For
another couple, maybe he's had some, you know,
he's had some time off. He's got healthy. He
feels good. He wants to come back. We'll see
how that goes. But can you lean on that? I don't
know. Is Tristan Colon going to learn on the
job? My joke is he got tired of chatting with
the other moms and dads in the pickup line, in
preschool or school or wherever his kids are
at. He's like, yeah, I gotta get back out there.
He's like, I just missed the locker room and
talking to Hutch. Who knows? Who knows what life
is like for a guy who just suddenly decides to
go back to the real world, right? But at the
same time, I wonder what are they going to do
about that spot? So we have, and then like left
guard isn't settled. Just because we've got some
young guys, I haven't seen any of them really
step up majorly. Now, again, I'm of the belief
that Offensive linemen take time to develop so
one of those guys may pop here pretty soon and
be serviceable I like the right side of our line
right now with Sewell and Ratledge. I'm okay
with where that stands I think Ratledge would
benefit majorly from having a capable center
I'll be very curious to see how Ratledge's career
trajectory goes once rag now is humming and next
to him playing like that may be a an interesting
telltale for Ratledge and his ability. How does
he do when he has a capable center next to him?
And for that matter, how does one of those young
guys do as a left guard with a capable center
next to him? Who knows? We're going to find out
as soon as he comes back. So that'll be this
season. What do you see for Dallas, Bill? OK,
so we've got five games left. Mathematically,
the Lions have to win four of them. If they only
win three, they're going to need an abundance
of help to make the playoffs. And that's a nervous
proposition and position will keep you updated
fans. The Cowboys come to Ford Field. It's a
Thursday night game. So the Lions do get a full
week of recovery. The Lions are favored by three
and a half points. The total is fifty four and
a half, which I agree with. I do think this is
going to be like a thirty four, thirty one, thirty
one, twenty eight type of game. If you're into
the money line, Dallas plus one fifty five. The
Cowboys are playing really well. They beat the
Chiefs on Thanksgiving Day. The previous week
they found some spirit. They erased a 21 point
deficit against the sagging Philadelphia Eagles.
So this is the wrong time to play the Cowboys.
I much would have rather played them earlier
in the year, like you mentioned, when the Bears
played them. But unfortunately, that's not when
we're getting them. A Dak Prescott's firing on
all cylinders. Williams is a really good running
back. And then George Pickens looks to be one
of the best, if not best, receivers in the league.
I think this comes down to two things, Chet.
Can Kelvin Sheppard and MCDC come up with a different
plan, zone, something to slow down the passing
game of the Cowboys and slow down that offense?
At least mix it up, right? Give it to a little
man, do a little zone. Give us a dynamic look.
That wouldn't be too bad. The other one is, does
Ragnar play? And if he does, is he effective?
And then last is if St. Brown doesn't play, this
offense is limited. Tom Kennedy is a special
team. You and Tom Kennedy. A lot of people love
Tom Kennedy. You have a thing. You just dislike
him. It's like all of a sudden he's not the guy,
but you're OK accepting a Meek Robertson in our
defensive backfield. I get it. I see where you're
at. But I do think Tom Kennedy is probably a
better kick and punt returner than what we've
seen so far this season. I'll take Khalid for
Raymond. We did a pretty good job on special
teams there. All day, any day. So with no Raymond
and no St. Brown, no Laporta, we don't have enough
weapons. I think there is a call to finally see
Tesla step up here. I know that you're kind of...
Not in on him. I saw him make a few bad. I think
it was Jameson Williams touchdown when he whiffed
on like three, but he just couldn't find some
of your block. It was very weird to watch, actually.
And Jamo made the play. What we saw there was
how good Jamo can be when the ball gets into
his hands. We also saw him drop a couple more
balls yesterday. It was like, what's going on?
Like we had one that he should have caught for
a first down at a critical point in the game.
And it wasn't the greatest pass from golf. It
was behind him a little. But you know what? You're
going to make millions. You better make that
catch. Both hands got on that ball. Couldn't,
couldn't agree more. And the other thing is the
Cowboys traded Parsons and then quickly upgraded
their defensive line with Quinn and Williams
from the Jets. And then they also, you know,
acquired the Packers big run stopper as well.
And so their D line's now actually a strength.
So if the Lions can't run the ball on them. We
could have a long day. I would like to see Gibbs,
you know, flexed out on screens and get more
involved in that same thing with Monty. But if
St. Brown doesn't play, that's my key to the
game right now. And I'm picking the Cowboys.
I think that hurt yesterday too, or Thursday
too, right? Like, St. Brown not being out there
means the defense can start keying on other people.
Covering JMo is tough. I get it. But I don't
think he's the route runner St. Brown is at the
end of the day. He doesn't cut his routes as
cleanly and he's just not as dangerous. But,
you know, if you can keep the ball out of his
hands, once it's in his hands, I think he is
dangerous. So we'll see if Tesla can step up
and take that number two receiver spot. You know
what Jamo is? Jamo is Elvin Harper to St. Brown's
Michael Irving. That's the difference. Like,
he's a good piece, but he's not the guy. He's
a good number two receiver, right? I don't think
we should have invested what we did on him, but
he's a good number two receiver, and to slot
could be a good three. I just don't know that
Gauss ever had the chance to get to the third
read. No, he doesn't. progression. So it's like
everything is just a one read deal for him right
now because the line can't block anyone. So it's
very limited on offense. And I do want to clarify.
I'm not down on Tesla. I'm down on the capital
that was given up to acquire Tesla. The capital
given up in the usage of him. And the utilization
are the two things that I a little bit had scratching.
All right. So back to early prediction. I think
the Cowboys are going to outscore the Lions.
I think we're just getting them at the wrong
time. Unless the Lions can make wholesale changes
on defense, unless they can get a pass rush going,
mix up the man to man with some zone. So I'm
asking a lot of questions that I don't know we
have answers to. We have a lot of questions right
now. This is where we're at. I'm going to go
like thirty four, thirty one Cowboys. I would
hammer the O. I think I'm right in line with
you. I was gonna say 35 28 Cowboys sure I don't
think we're gonna be able to keep up with them
This is the first time this season you and I
have probably gone against the grain here and
picked against our guys I know at home, but I
don't have much belief in this Lions defense
right now. I think the offense will keep scoring
I do I think the offense There's so much talent
on the offense, even with a lackluster O -line,
we can still put points on the board. As long
as you've got Gibbs out there and Goff out there
and you've got JMo out there and you've got these
guys that can make plays, you're still going
to score. The question is, A, are you going to
get up early? Are you going to give the other
team the lead early? Because that definitely
changes the way the Lions offense runs. B, can
the defense stop anyone? Can they stop anyone?
They couldn't stop the Packers. They barely stopped
the Giants. So can they stop anybody? That's
going to be a big question. Is League figured
out how to attack us? We'll see. So again, thank
you for listening to the Detroit Lions Litterbox.
Chet and I both appreciate it. We hope every
one of you had a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday
with family and loved ones. We will bring you
another pod to preview this and give you injury
reports. It'll be a quick one sometime next week.
And with that, go Honolulu Blue and Silver. Go
Lions. Alliance.