This is The Litterbox, a Detroit Lions podcast
with your hosts, Chet West and Bill Patterson.
Detroit Lions Litterbox listeners. Welcome to
another episode of your Detroit Lions Litterbox.
I'm your host, Billy P with Chet West. The Lions
want to clunker. they escaped the Giants in overtime
yesterday chat and They won at 34 -27 basically
because Jameer Gibbs put on his Superman cape
outside of that The only other offensive players
that really even bothered to show up were the
Sun God st. Brown and Penne Sewell The interior
of the offensive line is an absolute mess chat
Jared Goff does not have time to drop back and
get to a second third or even fourth reads And
I've got some shots to fire at management just
on roster construction and lack thereof. But
I want to get your thoughts on this one first.
I think you're trending towards a sky is falling
narrative here. This is the NFL can week out.
This is the NFL. This is what you get. This is
what you get with parody. But the New York Giants,
I think we made a mistake. in assessing and the
Lions players tried to tell us this all week.
But I think in our previous podcast, we made
a mistake in assessing them as this weakling
that we should pound dude solely to their record.
The Giants sort of reminded me in a lot of ways
of that three and 13 Lions team back in what
was a 2021, the first year of the Holmes Campbell
regime. They've got a lot of fight. They are
middle of the pack in defensive numbers. They
are at the top 10 in rushing. Now, that doesn't
look like a, you know, a patsy to me. That doesn't
look like somebody we are going to be expected
to crush. They are missing neighbors. They were
missing Dart, but they filled it in with James
Winston, who's I mean, that guy, he actually
is our worst nightmare because he's he's a quarterback
who's a gunslinger. So he's just going to be
out there throwing wild on us. without without
anything to lose. And that's when we're going
to lose that game. Our defensive backfield, obviously,
obviously is beat up and needs help. Our pass
rush was not the best I've ever seen it in that
game at all. Our offensive line, I mean, even
Goff and everybody else on the team that were
interviewed after this game talked about the
struggles of our offensive line, but the Lions
pulled it out. Good teams with good culture pull
a win out in that game. They find a way to win
and they move along. Look at every other team.
The Giants have played so many one score games
this season. I think their last two or three
games came down to the final minutes and those
are against good teams. Packers, Cowboys. These
are not, you know, this is not a pushover team.
I think we drastically underestimated the challenge
in front of us. Potentially. I'm going to take
a different take on that. The Giants thought
so little of the Detroit Lions beating them that
Shane Bowen their defensive coordinator is now
fired So that is some of the breaking news that
we're gonna give you and then Giants right tackle
Jermain you Luman or slams Aiden Hutchinson I'm
not gonna read the entire thing, but I would
suggest every listener does this how do I say
this respectfully he did not do a damn thing
all bleep in game and Basically the tape shows
us that Aiden Hutchinson didn't have a good game
save the last play of the game when he and McNeil
got home and did sack Winston. Aside from that,
he was largely vacant. We can skip forward chat
and we'll do game balls. Jamar Gibbs gets one
and Jake Fox gets one. Jake Bates gets one. And
that is it for me. I'm going to give one. You're
going to give one to Gibbs for sure. I'm going
to give one to Sewell and Ratledge. They run
blocking over that right side of the line is
what broke Gibbs on all those plays and he went
untouched, okay? And they opened those holes.
So I'm gonna give one to those two guys. They
did a pretty serviceable job over there. I'm
fine with that and I think that's a very good
take on your part as well. On defense, the only
ball I would potentially give out would be to
one Roy Lopez who had six tackles, tackle for
a loss. Outside of that, the defense, I mean,
let's talk about Jamis Winston catching that
touchdown where he not only got Derek Barnes
spun around, Derek Barnes wrapped him up and
couldn't bring him to the ground. This leads
to my next topic, which is, you know, you extended
Jamis and Williams, who was not present yesterday,
not a difference maker. Yep. You extended Hutch,
who was not a Difference Maker yesterday. You
extended Barnes, who was not a Difference Maker
yesterday. You extended Levi Onzerike, who can't
seem to get on the field because his back is
always bothering him. And I want to highlight
the 2024 draft. And here's why I have concern
for this franchise going forward. It's not one
loss yet. It's the fact that they had an entire
draft. This would be year two of that draft.
These should be your major contributors on the
playing field this season. And right now, it
looks like Terri -Ann Arnold injured. I mean,
concussions happen. It's a violent sport. Enis
Reykstra always hurt in college. Enis Reykstra
always hurting with the Lions. Giovanni Manu,
who they traded up to get, played Canadian football
up in British Columbia. He's a reach, can't seem
to find the field. And then they drafted Vahki
is a, he was a safety at Utah, played a little
bit of running back. The Lions thought they were
the smartest guys in the room and could make
him a running back. A, it's a position of strength.
B, he's been a special team or win healthy. So
that's a reach. You're not drafting special teamers
in the third and fourth rounds. Then they go
after. Makai Wingo who even his own coaches at
Louisiana State Chet said that he at the point
of attack at six feet tall is too short to really
create massive leverage. He hasn't seen the field
whatsoever. Again, he's too short. And then you've
got Christian Mahogany who might be the best
draft pick of this but is injured this year and
out. So you had a 2024 draft with no one contributing.
in 2025. And that is where I want to say that
I think this team, if it falls short in its quest
to reach its first Super Bowl, that's going to
be a major factor to it. The sky's not falling
in. I'm not predicting doom and gloom, but I
would be remiss if we didn't talk about this
chat, because that's a huge factor. I would,
I would agree with you to some extent. I think
some of the gambles in the last two drafts. We're
not, we're not, uh, we're not good gambles. Best
way to put it. You've Manu obviously to slot
doesn't seem to be producing on the field right
now. Two guys that they traded up to grab and,
and we're criticized for doing so in both instances.
I'm not ready to say Brad Holmes needs to take
a hike here. 2021, 2022, 2023 were some of the
best drafts probably for this team in history
and probably in all of the NFL in those years.
2024 draft definitely leaves something to be
desired. Taryn Arnold is not. done what they
were hoping he would do. They did not draft corners
for three straight years and then they decided
we got to get some corners in here to fill some
gaps. I have two theories about professional
football. One, the cornerback position and the
offensive line position take some seasoning before
you see any results. I like veteran cornerbacks.
I like veteran alignment. That's just me. You
can throw all the stats in the world at me to
prove me wrong on that. Those are the guys that
I trust the most. And so it takes a few years
to see that fruit bear out. Ratledge is already
showing he can do some things at the right guard
position. Unfortunately, we have a center right
now that is way below, performing way below the
league. They will need to address that in the
off season. They've got to address that center
position, whether it's through the draft, which
I really hope it's not, because again, it'll
take years to get somebody up to speed or if
it's getting a free agent. So Brad Holmes, I'll
agree with you a bit. 2024 draft is light 2025
draft who knows maybe ratledge ends up an all
-pro and we got an all -pro guard right next
to an all -pro right tackle maybe he doesn't
we'll all wait a bit and see what happens there
i do agree with you to agree the last two drafts
have not been what the first three were now Well,
I wasn't even going after last year's draft because
I think Williams has been a plug -and -play starter
from day one. That's round one. Ratledge plug
-and -play round two. So he's had maybe one bad
draft so far and you want to skewer him for that.
But he's had like three excellent drafts and
one we don't know yet. Probably okay. I mean
the class of the NFL right now defending Super
Bowl champions are the Philadelphia Eagles. They
don't miss on drafts ever. And so my point is,
if he goes 0 for 7 in one draft, it's too soon.
That is something that will come back to bite
and haunt a team for a number of years. I think
you can give the general manager one bad draft.
But. Mentioning those Eagles lost to the Cowboys
yesterday in overtime. This league is tough.
I mean the parity is incredible. Look at these
teams I mean, it's it's literally every game
is a one -score game isn't what is it? There's
a stat out there 90 % of games are decided by
one score. That's it I mean the difference between
a terrible team or a terrible record in the Giants
at two and ten is one score games over the course
of the whole season we saw this when the Lions
struggled to It's it's not the NFL being a fan
of an NFL team is not for the faint of heart.
And I'm not defending Brad Holmes here. OK, I'm
just saying the margin for error is so slim and
matchups are such a huge piece of this. And when
we get into our Packers preview here. We do not
match up well against the Packers. I'll just
preview my thoughts on that for you, but. They
they do well against our weaknesses. So it's
again I These games these one score games. It's
just it can go either way and Lions of matter
break their way seven times this season so far
They got six games left. I'll be curious to see
what they got left. Well, let's Use that and
let's talk about the Packers and okay being day
So the game is moved up a half hour. So I want
everybody to be aware of that It's gonna be 1
p .m. Eastern or 12 p .m. Central Standard Time
It used to be on the half hour, but it is moved
this year right now The opening line is the Packers
plus three the over -under is going to be 49
and a half and the money line if you are inclined
to do so is plus 135 for the Packers minus 155
for the Lions to your point check what the Packers
do. Well is pass rush from the interior of the
D line. And that is the Lions absolute weakness
right now since Graham Glasgow has been moved
to center with Frank Ragnow's retirement. And
so I think it's going to be a long day at the
office for all of the offensive linemen for the
Detroit Lions. We need you talked a little bit
about in the Giants game how lackluster the defensive
backs looked. I agree, but here's the thing.
No defensive backfields gonna look good in an
NFL game if you can't have your front four generate
a pass rush, and I don't know what was wrong
with Hutchinson yesterday. I don't know if he's
hurt. I don't know if like the legs bothering
him, but he didn't show and Brad Holmes again.
I don't mean to pile on but his reluctance to
invest in somebody opposite Aiden Hutchinson
Is so prevalent and it makes the entire secondary
look really really bad good news DJ reads back
So at least we have our you know, one starting
can I stop you there bill? I want to ask you
a question because you touched on something interesting
here go What do you think the difference was
between the Eagles game when our defense looks
so dominant and the Giants game when they looked
like they couldn't defend a peewee team Think
Mike Kafka came with his a game plan now that
he's the I guess interim head coach of the Giants
and I think he's viewing it as an audition I
also think the Giants to your point know that
they've got more talent there and I wouldn't
be surprised if the Giants are a playoff team
next year when Malik neighbors Jackson Dark Some
some others scat about are all back healthy.
I mean there is young talent on this team and
they've had enough early draft picks to show
for that. They just haven't gotten the coaching
right. I also think the Lions are, you know,
you talk about the parody of the league, you're
going to get up for a Sunday night game against
national television, NBC, you know, the bright
lights of Philly. The little things, right? Like
it's the little motivations. Okay, now you're
back home for close to a month, three straight
games, and it's like, oh, we have to play the
Giants. I am certain no lion would ever admit
it, but you know, they're looking ahead to the
packer game, knowing that's a must win. So to
answer your question, I think they quite simply
look took advantage. Right past your New York
Giants, and we're hoping for the best. And fortunately,
they did get a win. Fortunately, you know. Panay
Sewell and Ratledge opened up huge holes for
Gibbs. We do need to give a kudo to that too.
Jameer Gibbs set Detroit Lions all time rushing
record and total yards record, which given that
Billy Simms and Barry Sanders. Yeah, I wanted
to make sure that we touched on that because
what I couldn't believe was watching that defense
against the Eagles in Philly and then watching
them last this past Sunday. Home against the
Giants. It was like two totally different defensive
units. Well, and I think that's the matchup game
I think that's the game scheming the you know
I think that the Giants just picked at a weakness
more than the Eagles did and in essence and if
Hutch had a bad day at the offense I mean, he's
your most important defensive player and if he's
not getting home, you know, you don't have that
You know yin and yang or counterpart on the other
side of it. Yeah to do that. And the Giants did.
I mean, I will give Kafka and company. I mean,
they ran the ball when they needed to. They passed
the ball and they needed to. They kept it a mixed
bag. And I hope Mike Kafka gets a job in the
NFL. I mean, from what little I've seen, I think
he deserves it. All right. Now we can put the
Giants to bed. I wanted you to go through that
real quick just to sort of sort that out for
the listeners. And let's let's move on to the
Packers game. I'm curious to hear your thoughts
here. Give me your give me your what do you do?
Bill, what does your Thanksgiving Day look like
for these games? What's the set up at the Patterson?
Well, typically we go to the game. And we go
down to Detroit, we watch the parade, Free Sir
Keister's off. We try to set up in front of a
local establishment that I'm not going to mention
because I prefer the crowds to stay light. One
Jerome Bettis is usually there to enjoy in the
revelry. and with his family, so we brunch there,
we watch the parade, then we head over and we
watch the Lions. This year, I'm in Iowa City,
and coincidentally, they eat early and scheduled
dinner for 1 p .m., which is... Is it bizarre
to you that other places don't know how to do
Thanksgiving Day around the football schedule?
Yes, because definitely more of an it's accentuated
a little more in the Detroit homes I believe
may I get on my soapbox. Yes, please do. Okay.
So here's the thing This game has been played
since 1934 the Lions matched up against the Bears
they lost 19 to 16 This is the 22nd time the
Lions will have played the Packers. They played
the Bears 20 times, the Vikings five times. And
believe it or not, they played the Chiefs four
times. But the Chiefs complained about the Lions
and Cowboys always getting Thanksgiving Day games.
And so now there's a third game because the Chiefs
belly aches about it. The Chiefs get to do what
the Chiefs want to do. I can't stand the hunts.
I can't stand the Chiefs. Sure. Overall, the
Lions have a 38, 45 and two record. But here's
the crazy part about this is the Lions took a
huge risk back in the day scheduling this game
It turned out to be an immediate success It was
a sellout in 1934 and has been played outside
of every year except for the World War two years
Here's a crazy idiosyncrasy that only hardcore
Lions fans will play But there's some formula
in the schedule making that the AFC North cannot
play the Lions or the Cowboys in those time slots,
which is noon and 330. So they can only play
in the night game. So teams that you will not
see would be the Bengals, Browns, Ravens and
Steelers. Interesting in its own right the other
thing that's interesting is you have a huge market
team the Los Angeles Rams and they have the longest
drought of any team which is They've not appeared
on a Thanksgiving Day game in any kind since
1975 and there is only one NFL team that has
never appeared in the game and that would be
your Jacksonville Jaguars Wow, I did not know
that. And the Rams being out of it since 75 is
fascinating, but I also don't envision them as
a Thanksgiving Day team. I don't know why, I
just have labeled certain teams as Thanksgiving
Day teams and they're not one of them. What do
you, I want you to give us a little bit of a
food and drink survival guide here. Well, I think
the key thing is you need to be able to watch
the game. Sure. in bringing an iPad, my phone,
spare chargers, headphones. You got all the things.
You're going to have some sort of a portal in
every room. So fortunately, we're going to a
restaurant. Hopefully they'll have TVs on there
as well. This is a rough Thanksgiving for you.
Yeah, my nephew. This is an oddity. My nephews
are going to. They love me as an uncle and they're
gonna run interference for me best I can or best
they can folks This is a pitfall that can happen
if you marry out of the Detroit area or out of
the Thanksgiving Day tradition Into another family
that does not respect it as much as the one you
grew up in in the Detroit area You will have
to deal with these perils every once in a while.
Sometimes they'll acquiesce to your needs, but
most of the time you're going to have to shuffle,
juke and jive your way around being able to see
the game because their schedules just don't match
up on Thanksgiving Day. Yeah. And I'm also one
that we've always eaten at four thirty five p
.m. So this whole thing has me thrown up. Exactly.
My family they have been more more than you know
I moved here to Minnesota and ever since the
first Thanksgiving Day They have been more than
accepting of me needing to see my game on TV.
We have a very Settled plan on Thanksgiving Day.
We go to my mother -in -law Peggy's house And
she always makes sure that the game is on and
the volume is up and that I'm able to watch.
Now there's people jumping around, doing other
things. They're not concentrating in the game
like I am, but I can still sit there and watch
and get a seat in the center of the room and
focus. And I don't, I'm not asked to do too much.
Although over the last couple of years, I've
taken on a green egg turkey, which has cut into
my morning a little bit prior to it. So this
year, I think she even mentioned maybe This year
so you could be settled and seated for the game.
You don't do the turkey in the morning You do
it the day before and then bring it so i'm going
to do that We're going to have two turkeys one
fresh one that she makes One off the grill that
I make that's going to be like a you know, a
leftovers thing for people to pick at So my nephews
will be wearing my spare lions jerseys in a show
of solitude and support. Good, good. You get
that at least. Even though they're Broncos fans,
but that's also their way to poke the bear for
our family, which is big Chiefs fans. My father
-in -law had a very quick retort. We'll DVR the
game. And my brother -in -law quickly said, Dad,
the Chiefs Cowboys is on immediately after. We're
going to be watching that live. So I knew where
I stood on this. So now what I've come up with
is a list of excuses. To get me outside one.
I'm gonna claim that our fantasy football trade
deadline is Thanksgiving Day And so I need to
be out on my phone all the time I'm also gonna
claim that my bookies calling me even though
I don't have a bookie Both of these sound very
degenerate to me fine your family gonna handle
that okay is that Another one that I could do
that's not as degenerate is claim that I always
call certain mates or friends. That sounds more
wholesome. I need to go touch base with people.
I will not be able to cook barbecue or grill
outside. Typically, I do that with a TV, but
that's not going to happen. We could borrow one
from a famous movie and go get ice for the Tom
Collins mix. So. That's another one or you can
some mums if you will yeah Or I could make like
a really stinky salad with onion and garlic outside
cut a pumpkin squash outside or another degenerate
one chat take up cigars or smoke outside, but
I don't do either of those I Did include in my
notes just to make chat laugh that go outside
and smoke with your aunt uncle cousins or 15
year old niece You're gonna take up smoking just
to watch this game. This is gonna be pretty much
pretty much Anyhow, I would love to start a Squares
pool to get everybody involved but that's not
gonna happen either Fortunately, this isn't too
dressy of a place. I do have a Honolulu blue
sport coat, but I am gonna keep that at home
and I will just be rocking the Panaceo jersey.
So that's kind of my survival guide on it. It
is a long standing tradition. You have a special
survival need this year that the rest of us may
not have to battle with. But if any of you out
there are in a similar situation, you can fall
back on some of these techniques and let us know
how they work. And if any listeners are in Iowa
City, we will be dining at like, I don't know,
something power company or something like that
restaurant. Come find us. We'll be we'll be the
crew in lion's gear. Well, I do feel for you
I'm sure you're gonna have a great family outing
Yeah, I do feel for you having to jockey around
this game like this all joking aside I couldn't
have married into a better family. Of course.
We're just having fun with this now flaws with
this though Why don't you give us some fantasy
updates? I don't have any injury updates because
It's too soon for a report. I imagine the list
will be just as long. Everybody that played yesterday
will play Thursday. The hope would be that we
could possibly get Terry on Arnold back and potentially
Kirby Joseph. Outside of that, I don't see anything
changing. I have a lot of problems fantasy wise
for this game. I have a feeling this will be
one of the lower scoring Thanksgiving Day games
we've seen. Well, the over under is 49 and a
half on that. And then I do have one Packer injury
update that we really need to keep an eye on.
Josh Jacobs did not play, but said he would only
miss one game. So he missed yesterday's game
against the Vikings. I don't know if he's still
going to be healthy or not, because his backup,
Wilson, did quite well. Yep. So I do expect a
lot of running to happen. Give us your fantasy
update and then we'll do kind of early look aheads.
I don't like anybody in this game for fantasy
to be dead honest with you. I don't even like
Gibbs so much in this game for fantasy. I think
this is going to be a ugly, ugly Thanksgiving
Day game. Now, we have been wrong on everything.
this season for the most part. I think maybe
we've hit on about 10 percent of our predictions.
So, again, you could just turn us off at this
point if you want to. Fantasy, I think we've
been accurate. Have we been accurate on fantasy?
Because I don't feel terribly accurate on fantasy.
Yes. But I am not taking if you've got guys in
this game, I'm not taking them on. You're on
a short schedule. Thursday game's short schedule
makes it tough for offenses to prepare. It'll
be a defensive game. If you've got like a Packers
defense or a Lions defense, you might take it.
The Packers have been struggling a titch lately,
and the Lions offense hasn't been clicking lately.
You know, Mike Parsons and the Packers are going
to make life very difficult for us, as they did
in the first game we faced them this past season.
They have too many things that match up against
our weaknesses. Like it's their pass rush is
good. Our O line is not. Our defensive backfield
isn't great. Their passing game isn't that bad.
They do real well with under the underneath short
passing. And that is kind of where we also aren't
great. Our linebackers don't cover the pass very
well. So. Don't have a terribly positive outlook
for you for this Thanksgiving Day game other
than we've seen magic happen before in Detroit
on Thanksgiving and We need it bad here. We need
a victory against these Packers. So I'm staying
away from everybody fantasy wise I know it's
probably not what you want to hear. I don't see
anybody going off in this game. Okay I do think
it's gonna be a low -scoring affair, so I would
go under the 49 and a half. I'm gonna go early
prediction, the team that just needs it more.
If the Lions lose this one, the division's out
of the question. Your Chicago Bears seemingly
just cannot lose, and the Lions have to have
this word be nice for the Packers to have it.
Think Jordan loves gonna have a rough day at
the office. I think hutch we get to see the Superman
hutch I think he's gonna be the one wearing the
cape this week. I just gonna answer the call
Yeah, and I think we're gonna see something like
little poster or a little billboard material
there. Yeah I think I see a lot of baits So I
I think it's gonna be like a 20 to 16 type game
a lot of field goals I feel the same. Points
are going to be at a premium. I could see a safety
potentially in this game or some type of defensive
turnover. One guy I'd like to see really step
up and not make a helmet to helmet. Collision
and get a personal follows Brian branch. So yeah,
let's hope something I feel like branch has been
somewhat neutered to some degree this season
He just doesn't seem to be the Brian branch we
were seeing from previous years I don't know
if it's just that he's been picked on I don't
know that it's just you know The NFL's got their
eye on him now every play he makes and he's trying
to keep from doing these I don't know what it
is, but it doesn't seem like the guy he's missing
his running mate who's an all -prime Kirby For
me, I think and Kirby missing is a big deal.
I think it's a huge deal. I get a defensive back.
Yeah, if we can get one player back from the
injured list, it would be Kirby Joseph. And dare
I say I'm sort of missing Terry and Arnold at
this point. I'm missing Terry on Arnold as well.
What a bizarre thing to say after I've just ripped
him limb from limb for the last year and a half.
So I want to bring up two things before we close
it out, Bill. Yeah, a couple of things. Do you
have a prediction? I hate this game. I think
it's gonna be like 1913. Okay. Lions win. and
it's going to come down to like a, it'll be like
13 to 12 and the Lions will get a touchdown or
something. I don't know. It's going to be ugly.
I think it's going to be an ugly deal. A pick
six on the last drive. Jordan Love scrambles
around and throws a ball away. I don't know.
I just don't see this being a pretty game and
I hope tradition sticks for this season and we
are so wrong and the Lions just blow it out and
it's a huge offensive. I just don't see it. I
see an ugly game coming up. But that couple of
things, but that's how it goes for us. It does.
That's a juicy tidbit. Kind of like a green egg
turkey. It is. It's a juice. Anyhow, that's your
turducken from the old litter box here, folks.
The two things I want to bring up, two interesting
things. Jake Bates, you mentioned him in your
player of the game, your your game balls. Fifty
nine yard field goal under critical. Critical
make there that Jake Bates from brick salesman
to hitting 59 yarders and saving, possibly saving
this season to some degree. Let's not get too
crazy, but I have a feeling we're going to need
him a little more down the stretch going forward.
Close games and all, and some very big competition.
Number two, I attended the mini Minnesota state
championship football game this past weekend
on Friday night. Our local Edina Hornets pulled
it out. against Moorhead. The running back for
the Edina Hornets bill ran for 320 yards. His
name is Chase Bjorgard. I have never seen a running
effort like that in my life in football. High
school football, so be it, but 320 yards and
six touchdowns in the state final. Well, that
is incredible. You remiss if I didn't mention
Jackie's cousin's son, Reston Lehman led Peterstownship
to a Pennsylvania 4A state championship Saturday
night at the Cruiser Field where the Steelers
play. They were down 19 -0 going into the second
half and won 20 -19. So congratulations Reston.
I know you're a loyal listener and good luck
on your future endeavors. He is going to be playing
D1 football next year. With that, do you have
a final prediction? Anything else you'd like
to share? Nope. I want everybody to enjoy their
turkey. Try to enjoy your family. Don't talk
about politics, religion or anything else dicey
at the table. Unless you want to cut off, cut
your gift list down for the season. Keep everything
happy and smiling and let's hope for a Lions
win. Eight wins would look really good right
now. if we could get there. Go Lions!