This is the Litterbox, a Detroit Lions podcast
with your hosts, Chad West and Bill Patterson.
Litterbox Lions fans, you got yourself a W this
past weekend. We had a little bit of a get healthy
game. in the nation's capital, lots of regalia
and celebration for the Veterans Day holiday,
a few touchdown dances to go along with it, and
some debate or controversy over who actually
did the play calling in this Lions win. Bill,
do you have any thoughts? Yeah, Chad, I do. Great
Lions win. And I apologize if anybody's listening
to us to make their Wagering or listening to
us for expertise because we didn't do good. We
couldn't have been more wrong So the over hit
the eight and a half or seven and a half hit
There was nothing that Chet and I could have
told you that are shared with you that was any
good But let's talk about the game. The president
was in the house great Veterans Day celebration
great win by the Lions and Chet Dan Campbell
admitted in his press conference. He was calling
the plays I don't know why it took Jonathan Vilma
and Kenny Alberts three quarters to figure it
out. But Johnny Moe is I think he designed the
play sheet, but we saw a bespeckled Dan Campbell
with glasses and a play sheet calling the plays
for the first time since his first year after
he let go. Anthony Lynn is the offensive coordinator.
So my question to you, Chet, is is John Morton
one and done here? I feel like from the day he
was hired, he was one and done for one reason
or another. I don't think he ever truly excited
very many people from the go. People kind of,
at least I saw this as we lost Ben Johnson late
in the process. We didn't really have much to
choose from for offensive coordinators after
that happened. Okay. And what you end up with
then is you're scrambling around trying to find
a known quantity. John Morton was a known quantity.
He had once worked with us, not as an OC, but
at a different level. He was the passing game
coordinator in Denver and had some success with
the rookie Bo Nix. I think this was a fill a
gap fast with someone you know. And if it works
out great, if it doesn't, move on to somebody
else. And I think they're going to be moving
on to somebody else because I don't think this
is going to work. Even if he's the architect,
Bill, Dan is choosing which play to call. And
I highly doubt Johnny Moe is the architect of
the whole entire thing. He is not the architect
because it's the same offense they've run. Under
Ben Johnson ever since Anthony Lynn left in the
architect of this offense quite frankly is Dan
Campbell I mean so saw yesterday and the secondary
question I want to ask is do you think Johnny
Moe knew this was just for a year to keep a seat
warm? Well, Johnny Moe, this is the biggest elevation
he's had since he was the New York Jets offensive
coordinator for one year He does come from that
Sean Payton tree, and that's the same tree that
Campbell comes from, you know, when you talk
about coaching trees and all that. I don't know.
I think Johnny Moe thought it would be better,
but I knew his goose was cooked when he started
making apologies publicly to J Moe and to Isaac
Tesla. It was odd, wasn't it? Yeah. I don't think
Ben Johnson would have ever done something like
that. No, Ben Johnson apologized for nothing
ever. And so talking about the game, I mean,
the key things that I saw chat and that I'm sure
our listeners saw as well was the pre snap motions
were back. The misdirection was back and the
offensive line looked dominant. And when we get
to our game balls, I'll talk a little bit about
some of those individuals. And this is a game
chat where we had a really beat up Taylor Decker.
A really, really beat up Penne Sewell. Graham
Glasgow leaving for a few plays. Sewell left
for a few days to get his knee re -taped. Awaseeka
on the field the whole time. I mean, we didn't
have our starting left guard. I don't know how
much that mattered. I think Awaseeka is a huge
upgrade over Mahogany. I think he might be. And
I think his starting position is secure for now.
He was the difference and I don't want to let
the cat out of the bag, but he's I'm only given
one game ball and that's the game ball I'm given.
I wonder if Awasika versus Mahogany was more
or less a, we are more invested in Mahogany from
a draft pick standpoint. So we're playing him
to give him every chance to succeed. Do you believe
in that type of thing or no? Not necessarily.
I think it's just a function of you asked me
a few pods back what happened in the Minnesota
game and is it all Johnny Moe's fault? And I
said, no, you know, you can't execute the offense.
But I think the most telling point in the game
was Late in the fourth quarter, Jared Goff, after
he was pulled, walked over to Dan Campbell and
kind of like punched him in the shoulder. I don't
know if you saw this. Yeah, it was a nice little
moment. Well, in the press or guess what he said
to him? You still have it as a play caller. And
so, that's good. Can I tell you what I am hearing
happened? And this is through Dave Burkett and
some others. What I think happened is Jared Goff
pulled Dan Campbell aside or they had a one -on
-one over coffee and Jared said it's not working
with Johnny Moe. Yeah. The pre -snap reads aren't
there, the adjustments. The biggest thing that
frustrated me and you and our listeners in the
Vikings game was the lack of adjustments. Brian
Flores runs the same... Blitzes until you stop
it and Johnny Moe couldn't do anything Well,
it seemed very much like the Vikings and anyone
watching this game with a measure of an understanding
of football Could almost predict where at least
our run plays were going To the point where we
were not fooling them in the least this this
past game Looked completely different to me.
I would sit there and try to figure out. Okay,
we're gonna run it left here We're gonna run
it right here. The misdirection was back the
motion Misdirection was back, but also the running
misdirection. We ran a few more counters ran
a few more plays that were disguised better and
the combination of plays the succession of plays
was better the mix was better Cadence was unreal
and this was so much better If you're smoking
your last cigarette before a firing line in a
back worlds, you know, third world, central American
country, bet that the lions are going to run
behind Penne Sewell because that's what they
like to do most of the time. He is just a mauler.
And my favorite moment of the game is he had
to leave to get his knee re -taped. They're halfway
through re -taping his knee, the Lions score
a touchdown and he runs out to celebrate with
everybody after the touchdown. He wasn't leaving.
He wasn't going anywhere. He was doing Glasgow,
debated. He was petitioning to get back on the
field likewise after his injury. He was on the
sideline angry that he wasn't out there. Well,
I think after what they saw with Christian Mahogany
is that nobody's seat is safe on that. So I'm
going to ask you a question now. Johnny most
probably out. Do you have any names for us? I
don't. I don't offense because I've got two for
you right now. You've got a name. Throw it out
there. I do not. So I would have said, yeah,
you know, we lost so much from that side of the
ball. Taylor went to Jets, right? Taylor Ingstrom
went to the Jets. Ben Johnson goes to the Bears.
So we lost not only. The first level, the OC,
we lost the depth piece under that. So I would
have, I would have, I would have promoted Ingström
if he was going to stick around, but he didn't.
So you see the hole we were in trying to find
a replacement at OC right off the bat because
you don't even have the understudy anymore. Now,
would I go get Ingström from the Jets and bring
him back to the Lions? If he would, he wants
to get out of that disaster that is the New York
Jets right now. But I'm not 100 % sure he's the
guy either because he can't seem to fix the Jets
either. So who are the Jets fixable? Well, they
don't have the talent, right? This is a plum
job for an OC because you've got talent, which
also tells me that, you know, Johnny Moe isn't
the guy because he can't get it humming with
the talent we got out there. Exactly. He's making
apologies at pressers trying to figure out how
to get everybody the ball. All right. I've got
three names for you. I don't have a guy, but
who you have one's in house and he's the long
time quarterback coach. And I think he's due.
The question is whether he wants to or not. And
from Everything I'm reading and understanding,
his family is grown to the point that meaning
he doesn't have to coach kids sports anymore.
Sure. Mark Brunel, former NFL quarterback, former
University of Washington Husky, great, is my
in -house name. And then I've got two guys that
are currently employed, one of whom we saw yesterday,
but I don't expect to be employed at the end
of the season. And I want to see... You know,
of these three, I kind of want you to force rank
them after I say who excites you the most and
who excites you the least. Mike McDaniel is my
next name. He's not coming back to Miami. He's
going to coach out the season. He's young. He's
an offensive wizard, but everywhere he's been,
their controversy follows. And I don't know that
he and Goff or MCDC would be simpatico. The third
name I have for you, and I don't like this one
at all, but I don't want to tee it up for you
too much, is Cliff Kingsbury. He's an offensive
genius, but it seems like in the NFL level, they
figure him out year two to year three. Those
are my three names for you. And I went through
all 32. The only other one that I can come up
with. I'll bring up at a later pod. Well, you
got Cliff Kingsbury, who's dependent on whether
he leaves Washington. Well, I don't think he's
going to be asked back. They're going to have
to be asked back. You think that he's done. They're
going to have to make somebody a sacrificial
lamb for this season. Well, they've lost five
straight. Yeah. Now they're flying to Madrid
to face the red hot dolphins who might smoked
the bills. And McDaniels doesn't strike me as
the guy for this regime. Not that he wouldn't
be a good OC. I'm not saying that. I just don't
know if he's a fit for our crew here. I kind
of like to mark Brunel call. And I think it's
more because he's an unknown. Quantity and maybe
you know it he might have really high upside
for being great. Like you said Kingsbury We kind
of know what we get there. Yeah, I don't know
if he's but with the talent we've got what can
he do? Maybe there's something there for that.
I don't know I've got a hot name for you, but
I think all right He's gonna hold out for a head
coaching job, but he does come from the Saints
coaching tree So he fits the bill and he's tearing
it up right now out in Seattle and that's Clint
Kubiak the son of Gary Kubiak Okay But I don't
think he is going to take the Lions OC job because
right now the Seahawks are sitting on top of
the NFC. If they get home field advantage, that's
going to be a tough place. I mean, the way I
think of this is like a springboard. If you're
good at your OC gig, the Lions are a springboard
to head coaching. I mean, look at what they did
with the previous understudy in the OC. Like
those guys just vaulted up a whole a whole slot
within a season or two. I think I think Mark
Brunel would be a fun Okay, good. And a known
quantity, too. Like, I don't think Goff would
be in opposition of that, if that makes any sense.
No, I think... But just remember, three weeks
ago, we thought Johnny Moe was the answer to
Ben Johnson. We were fine with him. So these
things change real fast, not for long, right,
NFL? We've already said that our picks are always
not great either, so... Yeah, we haven't done
a great job prognosticating with this season,
and it has been a little bit of a variable result
in comparison to the previous two years. So we're
not as predictable right now, which is maybe
that's a good thing to be not predictable. So
Ray, did anybody leave the game? Do we have any
injuries this past week that were of no? We've
got a big one, and this is going to be tough
to replace. Terry and Arnold left with a concussion
in the second quarter. OK. And I mean, concussion
protocol is a strange thing. You don't know if
he's going to come back. Point in case, our guy
Eddie Goldman in the preview, he didn't clear
concussion protocol and didn't play for the commanders
in this game. So with that, what I am going to
say is that's the biggest loss because we still
don't know if Kirby Joseph's knee is going to
be good enough to go against the Eagles. And
then we can talk about the offensive line being
banged up, Decker, Sewell, and Glasgow all left
at different times, but all came back. What was
nice about the end of the game was we actually
got to see in Kyle Allen's sighting, and Kyle
got it a little time. He used to be a commander
as well. The only thing that upset me was that
David Montgomery was still out there. Yeah, I
couldn't figure that one out. Like, Bakke did
end up getting some time at the end of that game.
They did pull Montgomery off the field. I think
they wanted to maybe help Monty Pat his stats
a little bit or something there. Did you? Get
any humor out of watching Dan Skipper line up
out wide, right? Did you see that play when he
actually feigned running a route? I'm not a hundred
percent sure what that was there to set up. Do
you know that was the moment that I went to Twitter
and started following, you know, my feed and
that's when Dave Burkett and like some of the
other, you know, beat writers are like Dan Kimball's
calling the plays. Cause Johnny Moe would, yeah.
Johnny Moe would never throw that out there,
but it was fun. I imagine that's probably what
I would look like running a route right now with
all the pads and everything. I was like, Oh,
that's probably what I look like. All right,
I'm going to give you a couple of statistics.
Yeah, so the Lions have had seven 500 yard plus
games since 2022, which is by far the most in
the NFL. The runners up or bridesmaids would
be the Ravens and Dolphins with four a piece.
Gibbs now has and this is before. He, going into
the game, had 39 TDs at the age of 24, which
tied him for the lead with Christian McCaffrey
and Rob Gronkowski, two. Well, Gronk, if he's
not in Hall of Fame, he will be in same with
McCaffrey. So Gibbs is on a great trajectory.
And then he goes out and runs for two touchdowns
and catches a touchdown. So now he's at 42. 42
so and then last thing Dan Campbell needs to
wear the glasses all the time I don't know why
he just looks like a different coach when he
does That I know that's not really a stat But
that was just kind of a fun one to throw in golf
has a hundred and thirteen touchdown passes since
2022 clear and away leading the league and then
I'm in st. Brown the Sun God has fifteen hundred
yard game since 2023 which also puts him a top.
So last thing I want to say on stats, the Lions
need to keep winning the toss because the tone
was set for this game when they won the toss
and deferred Chet. They forced the commanders
to go three and out, then marched down the field,
10 plays, scored a touchdown, and the game felt
like it was out of reach for the commanders ever
after. Feel like when we get out ahead of a team,
it's the game's out of reach 90 percent of the
time. I mean, this this offense is built to play
with a little bit of a lead. And they can make
a little bit of a lead seem like a lot of lead.
Like a seven points can seem like an eternity
to catch up. And when we don't come out and get
that lead right off the bat. and we become a
little more predictable. The play action doesn't
work. We don't run it as much now. That's been
the last eight weeks under Johnny Moe. Maybe
now that Dan's in there, he'll be a little more
stubborn and say, I don't care if we're down,
we're running the ball. I don't know. I'm not
sure if you'll see that difference or that change,
but we weren't down at all yesterday, so we didn't
really get to see him get pinned into a situation.
But either way, it was more like the old... Reliable
comfortable offense that we grew new and grew
to love over the last couple seasons yesterday
the Moment that the game truly was put out of
reach is when the Lions scored the third touchdown
in Duran pain the huge defensive tackle and possibly
one of the best players the commanders have way
yeah gets into a Punched st. Brown in the face
basically just wound up and punched him in the
face. I don't know what st. Brown said I haven't
read the reports I know there's a couple of them
out there right now, but apparently he said something
and drawn pain just lit him up and it was I mean
he got tossed he was done after that and then
the ironic part was that then the Lions decided
to go for two which I don't know if they were
going to and then they got it and At that point,
the game was certainly out of reach. I don't
know if they were going for two due to some mathematical
thing. I don't know of a math, a mathematical
situation that says when you're 20 to three,
go for two. I don't, I don't know if it was just
to kind of throw it back in their face or they
had a reason for doing that, but it was interesting
to see him go for two there and then they got
it. And I owe you and our listeners an apology.
Eddie Goldman did dress, but was extremely limited.
So he did clear concussion protocol. He had two
tackles, one solo, but clearly wasn't a difference
maker. I don't think it mattered. Yeah. All right.
Let's talk a little bit about fantasy. Yeah.
And our upcoming opponent, the Lions travel to
the link Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia
to face the Eagles. who are playing as we do
this pod. They're playing the Packers tonight.
And basically this is what I think is the toughest
game remaining on the Lions schedule. You know,
you could maybe argue the game at SoFi, but that's
pretty much a dome as far as I'm concerned. And
the Lions always get up to play Stafford. This
is going to be outdoors. We don't know what the
weather is going to be like because it's six
days away. It is the Sunday night game. We get
the NBC crew. So you're going to get a healthy
dose of Chris Collins worth. and his shameless
promotions for his company, Pro Football Focus.
Chet, do you want me to give you kind of the
early lines on this and maybe you can echo in,
or how do you want to approach this? Give me
the early lines. I'm curious to hear where we're
at with a point spread, a total. This is one
of those games I just, I don't see us winning.
Yeah, Chet and I feel a little different where
we're at here. Well, you're gonna feel better
after I tell you what Vegas thinks. Okay. The
line has opened. Now, mind you, the Eagles have
not played, so we don't know injuries and all
that. But the Lions are getting a point and a
half. So basically, I'm not going to say it's
a pick them, but it's as close to a pick them
as you're going to get in the NFL. The over under
is 48 and a half. So they don't expect it to
be a high scoring affair. And if you did want
to take the money line, the Lions are even money.
So that tells me that Vegas. is begging you to
take the Lions on this. Sure. We'll see how that
line moves when we do our preview on this. But
overall, I'm taking an optimistic approach. What
I do think is odd, Chet, is this is the Lions
have had the most bizarre schedule this year,
and it's not the first place schedule. It's that
they played in succession at Baltimore, Cleveland
at home, at Cincinnati. That's three opponents
from an AFC division, the AFC North. In this
sequence, they are playing at Washington, at
Philadelphia, New York Giants at home, Packers
Thanksgiving, then the Cowboys at home. They're
three of four against the NFC East. And they're
playing them all in a row. Yeah, which is just
bizarre. Yeah. So speckle them out there a little
bit. Now, the good news is the NFC East should
be called the NFC least right now outside of
the Eagles at six and two. Everybody else is
reeling. including the Cowboys defense, you know,
the Bears overcame a 10 point deficit at Soldier
Field yesterday to beat the Giants who have now
lost 11 straight on the road. So there's reason
for optimism. That is where we're coming in at
in terms of kind of looking forward to next week.
I agree. You have every reason to be skeptical
and I know that my optimism. probably shouldn't
be there, but if the line had opened, let's say
six and a half, seven and a half, eight and a
half chat, I'd probably be whistling a different
tune. You know, Vegas tries to get equal money
on either side. And what they're saying is they
see this game probably coming down. I think it's
going to be close. Yeah. I think it'll be a close
game. Yeah. I'm thinking like 24, 21, 24, 22,
something to that extent. I can see that. I can
see that. And when it comes down to this chat,
here's what I'm going to, I'm going to give you
my three keys to it. Okay. One, I think the Lions
have a better head coach. I know Nick Sariani's
won a Super Bowl. I know Dan Campbell hasn't,
but I trust Dan Campbell more than I trust Nick
Sariani. Two, I trust Jared Goff more than I
trust Jalen Hertz at quarterback. And then my
other two aspects, I'm going to give a push on
one and then the clear advantage elsewhere to
the Eagles. And that would be offensive line.
The Eagles are going to be better. edge rush
and pass rush. I'm giving the edge to the Lions
thus far. Aiden Hutchinson is playing like a
man possessed this year. He is creating havoc
every time. It's making plays. Brian Branch had
two sacks yesterday of Marcus Mariota. Both were
set up by Hutch getting double teamed and destroying
the offensive line of the commanders. No, and
my only question, Mark, is our defensive backfield
and the rest of our pass rush. So They are dialing
up a pass rush using guys like branch to get
through the seams there I just I feel like Hutch
is doing 50 % of the work on the defense right
now And the rest of these guys are just running
around out there a little bit. Jack Campbell's
had a decent go of it Yeah, I was gonna say this
has had a game or two here or there I'm not gonna
take all the credit away from these guys hands
alone He's been kind of missing in action at
times branch has had his games, but he's also
ever since his Suspension he's been a little
I don't know. Not MIA. He finally came back today.
Finally came back this weekend and had a good
game. But our defensive backfield is just a mess.
It's wrecked right now. We cannot do man coverage
to save our lives at this point. Which is what
Kelvin Shepherd, the defensive coordinator, loves
to do. And so I will give a key to the game if
we can circle back to injuries. If Kirby Joseph
doesn't play, it creates a huge hole for the
Lions. I agree with you, a hundred percent. Branch
can't be in the box, can't be, you know, blitzing.
He needs to stay at home and we can't, I know
you made fun of him earlier and I kind of defended
him, but we can't have Arthur Mallet and Amique
Robertson out on the islands alone. No, we can't.
They're not good man coverage guys. Amique, he
got abused yesterday by, did you, I didn't, this
one didn't make my radar. No, I know the name
change. Robbie Anderson is now Robbie Chosen.
Robbie Chosen now. I know, I know. I saw, I heard
that in the broadcast. I'm like, that's who that
guy is. I was like, I recognize his face. I'm
like, that's, oh, okay. I had the commander's
roster up on my iPad and I had to look up who
Robbie Chosen was. And then all of a sudden I
was like, oh, Robbie Anderson's still floating
around. Well, then I was also. I was like, he's
still in the NFL. But here's the thing, Bill.
We gave up 22 points to that offense. I know.
That was missing key cogs. And Marcus Mariotta
is starting, which I get Mariotta is not a bad
fit. He's a great backup. I'd love to have him
on the lines as a backup quarterback, to be honest
with you. He's better than Kyle Owen. Yeah, no
kidding. So I'm there's a lot there to sort of
unpack for the defense that I just didn't like
seeing him give up 22. And there were times when
the commanders. Seemed to be able to just shred
us if they wanted to and it was very confusing
There were times when they seemed like they couldn't
move the ball and then there were times when
they seemed like You gotta do is pass it downfield
and we're gonna complete the pass and be in great
shape and they did They did it quite a few times
So I think our offense kept them off the field
is what I really ain't think ended up happening
in the end They we played defense with our offense.
Do you think you know, I think if it were a college
game there'd be more concern chat, but the fact
is When you're up 22 to 3 at an opponent's stadium,
and the broadcasters mentioned this as well,
and I'm not giving them any credit, Kenny Albert
and Jonathan Vilma were their bad selves again.
But they said that it was 40, 45 % Lions fans
there, and every time they showed the crowd it
was pretty full of Lions fans. It's got to be
disheartening for the commanders knowing that,
you know, that's now five straight losses, the
season's lost. They were the darlings of the
NFL last year program right now right and You
can tell me that they want to play for Marriott
all you all you can want I I'm sorry But they're
not a good team at the moment and like you said
they're coming down off quite the high I just
you know, it's great. We beat him. We needed
the win But I don't have faith in our trip to
Philly at this point. I know I've been a little
bit of a bummer, but until our defense can right
the ship a little and show me something, I don't
have a ton of confidence in keeping other teams
off the board. So maybe it's a track meet in
Philly. You say low score. Vegas says low score.
I don't know. I'm not gonna give my prediction
yet I'm gonna wait a little bit on this this
week Yeah, I want to see I want to see how Green
Bay handles Philly tomorrow night on my tonight
a Monday night football That'll be interesting.
Yeah, so I only have one final thought since
we're not doing predictions and this is just
Game ball. I think we already talked about who
we gave it to and I just for having to fill in
for an injured Christian mahogany He did away
all the job. I know again. I was sure you like
him. You like it Well, I liked how he performed.
Yeah, he did. Well, he definitely was not a weak
link on the line I'll tell you that much. Yeah,
and aside from that golf played a great game
Gibbs was amazing and Jamo, welcome back that
was Quite the performance all the way around.
And then on the defensive side, Branch and Hutch
would probably be the only guys, maybe Campbell,
that I'd give a nod to. You're right. Guys are
flying around out there, but they're not making
as much of an impact as we'd like. And can we
fix our special teams too, please? The kick return?
I know. What a disaster. We had a couple more
bad kick return coverage. Jake Bates is making
tackles out in the open field to save touchdowns.
Aye, aye, aye. I know. What's going on, Mr. Phipp?
Can we get that all righted? We need Dave to...
Course, correct that. All right. My final thought
is this best end zone dance of the day. And there
were plenty to go around. The sun God pointing
to the president of the United States and then
the Trump, he did the Trump. I mean, that was
much too many people's chagrin and I don't think
he was doing it to pay homage. I think he was
doing it more to just sort of maybe. Shed light
on the scenario or mock the scenario. I don't
know if that's right But yeah, it was it was
a fun funny dance and meet more people than just
him I think I'm pretty sure Debo did the same
thing if I'm not mistaken So when he scored so
they they were all doing the dance yesterday
At any rate go Lions, please listen to our sister
podcast the Detroit Tigers litter box We've started
free agency and doing some previews on that and
with that I will bid you a good day We'll see
how Monday Night Football shakes out and then
we'll talk to you again before the Eagles. Go
Lions!