This is the Litterbox, a Detroit Lions podcast
with your hosts, Chad West and Bill Patterson.
Detroit Lions Litterbox listeners, we had a really
fun Sunday. 325 central standard time kickoff
and the Lions beat the Cincinnati Bengals 37
to 24 what was Equally awesome Was that not only
did they cover? The ten and a half point spread
but it was the largest road spread the Lions
had had since 1973 and the Lions were so in control
of this game that many of the national audience
or Midwest audience that had this game on soon
found it to be flexed in the fourth quarter to
the Chargers commanders game because the Lions
were so convincing in their beat down of the
hapless Cincinnati Bengals, which is a first
in my lifetime that I can remember the Lions
beating someone so bad, Chet, that they were
moved to a different game, not the opposite of
that. They took it right away from us. They took
it right. If you're not in the Detroit market.
You got the pleasure of watching the commanders
and the chargers and probably this is a no market
And probably the Cincinnati they probably ripped
it right out of the Cincinnati market You know
what? I'll take it all day long and I bet many
Bengals fans wouldn't complain either for the
fact that they probably didn't want to watch
that Turning team anymore either. I think the
Bengals are done The fans are done with their
squad at this point. It is not pretty there And
I don't blame him. I think just watching that
game, you realize how important a quarterback
is. Right now, if I had a vote for the 2025 NFL
MVP, it would go to Joe Burrow because they were
2 -0 until he got injured. And now they're 2
-3 in look. I think it definitely paints a picture
as to how dominant Joe Burrow is as a quarterback
and how good he is. I mean, I don't know that
Jake Browning, I kept calling him John Browning
last week. Jake Browning, I don't know that Jake
Browning is a good measuring stick. Very difficult
to judge a team when their quarterback can't
put balls in the right spot. I mean, it looked
half the time like he was actually trying to
throw it to our D backs on deep balls. The other
part of that is and I'm not excusing or defending
Jake or John Browning I'm sure Jake wouldn't
mind a John so he can go into witness relocation
at this point after that that putrid performance,
but their offensive line is abysmal chat it makes
you realize really bad how Important it is in
what the key to success for teams that are successful
in the NFL. So think The Eagles, the Bills, the
Lions at this point, the Chiefs invest so much
draft capital in building the O and D lines and
there's just no substitute for it, which leads
me to my next point. I didn't have a good feeling
when I saw Taylor Decker's name showing up on
the not going to participate in the game list
due to that nagging shoulder injury he has and
in his stead came former Canadian college football
player Manu to man the left tackle spot and We'll
see what the PFF grades say, but he didn't get
isn't good. It isn't good He didn't get Jared
Goff killed is the positive outside of that.
He almost got him killed twice He almost did
he almost managed to do it two times. You don't
know I understand the you give Decker a rest.
Okay against the team that has a weak a fairly
weak defensive line outside of Trey Hendrickson.
But they look pretty strong to me going up against
Manu. Granted, the rest of our line did a much
better job than Manu did. But Manu was was single
handedly so bad that multiple plays ended up
collapsing from that left side. And it wasn't
just Trey Hendrickson going up against him. He
couldn't handle anybody that was across from
him. He got beat by almost every single guy they
lined up over top of him on that side of the
line. And when he wasn't getting beat, all sorts
of chaos was being caused. I mean, you had, you
know, David Montgomery, who's a good pass blocker,
trying to figure out where he needed to go to
fill holes and help Manu out on that side. And
I think even that was difficult. I think that
the experiment with Manu, I'm hoping ends soon.
And if it doesn't, We may have to shift somebody
over there, which is not the easiest thing in
the world to do. To just shift somebody to left
tackle. Hold on, I think you're being very, very
harsh on him. He has not played that much football,
and he was drafted as a project. It was his first
start in the NFL, and I agree it was not good
yet. He also didn't know that he was starting
until Sunday morning. I get it, but in the Dan
Campbell world, The next man up is supposed to
be prepared. We heard that multiple times this
past week. And it's offensive line. I know it's
tough. And I'm not putting this all on Manu.
I'm putting a lot of this on the whole front
office, the coach staff. We just don't have an
acceptable backup at a key position on the field.
Who does have like a great left tackle backup
though? Don't have to be great. But when your
pass block score is a 17 .5 And you're the left
tackle? That's problematic. Yeah. And what's
gonna happen if Decker's out extended period
of time now? The word on the street is that Decker
will be back for the Chiefs game. I hope he was
just getting a rest because it was a lighter
opponent. Yes. So do you want to know the most
amazing statistic from this game? Yes. Is despite...
what we just talked about being the opportunity
there, or at least one of them. Jared Goff went
19 of 23. He is Superman back there. He only
had four incompletions given that he didn't have
a real left tackle in front of him. He did some
stuff. He threw some balls under duress. that
were absolutely fantastic. And some guys made
some plays for him, too. But he got rid of a
couple of balls that I didn't think he was going
to get rid of. I think it was in the beginning
of the game. Gibbs got one that he practically
picked up off the ground. But the fact that Goff
even got him the ball was amazing because he
had heat coming from the backside. And I do wonder
how much of that for Goff is how used to that
is he? I mean, he hasn't gotten a lot of pressure
from the backside in his career. or at least
in his career at the Lions due to the fact that
they've had a good left tackle over there that
he can trust. So I'm wondering if that's kind
of a new thing for him at this juncture or an
unexpected. Yeah, he still played great. Yeah.
So I would give Jared Goff one of my game balls.
The other game ball has to go to David Montgomery,
which I hope he gave to his sister. Johnny Morton
just continues to wow me. And I have already
forgotten about Ben Johnson or Benedict Johnson.
That's a non factor for me now. David Montgomery
threw a touchdown pass that was just awesome.
It was only a three yarder, but it was one of
those symbolic. It was symbolic and he did find
the end zone. He had 18 carries for 65 yards
for only a 3 .6 average. I will say that I think
we're seeing the twilight of David Montgomery's
career. I don't expect him to be with the Lions
next year. I do think that it'll be Vahki time.
And Jameer Gibbs was his usual self, 12 carries,
54 yards for a 4 .5 average. He was great in
the pass game though. He did not score a rushing
touchdown. However, he did have a 39 yard pass
catch. And to your point, yeah, he was excellent.
A five catches for 92 yards, 18 .4 average on
just six targets. And then another nickname.
It's no longer Amon Ra St. Brown. It is Amon
Ra First Down. He was open. He was open. All
day, eight catches, 100 yards, 12 .5 average,
a long of 26 on just nine targets. But every
time the Lions found themselves in third and
long or third and, you know, six. He shows up.
He shows up and was open. He is just so awesome.
Tom and Ra is consistently now showing up at
the mid -80s to 90 in PFF grades, too. So he's
doing a lot of the positioning things right that
maybe we don't see that they're getting on the
game replay and the game. game recaps, film recaps,
so it's pretty impressive that he can keep turning
in consistent performance after consistent performance.
The last player that I think we need to give
a shout out to, because we were pretty much spot
on in our fantasy star sit -em. We were, yeah,
we hit them pretty good. Stam Laporta had a great
game, five catches for 92 yards. It's the most
he's had yardage -wise in over, well, I guess
not only this season, but you'd have to go back
to this point of last season. So he's officially
back, caught a touchdown and things are good.
I mean, the Lions offense is clicking. I will
have to say, have you bought milk today? No,
no. Oh, because Jameson Williams is the missing
person on the back of the milk cart. Yeah, I
know. He is. That was well set up, by the way.
He is. He is. And his PFF grades showed he's
down in the 50s still. He just isn't. There's
something not clicking with him right now, almost
kind of like the offensive Terry and Arnold.
Does that make sense? Not clicking, not picking
it up, not getting it. And my only, he's still
a young player in his third year, but usually
the third year is when a receiver starts to go.
That's usually when they really start to catch
their stride. So the fact that he's not, I, I'm
wondering, is it John Morton doesn't quite know
how to use them and fit them in yet? Or is it
just he's not doing the things he needs to be
doing? I'm not 100 % sure. He dropped a couple
balls in the last game. This game, he barely
even got a chance to catch a ball. And another
thing, I want to go back to the tight end. Do
you think John Morton uses the tight end a little
more than our buddy Ben did? Definitely last
year, it seemed like Laporta was kind of an afterthought
for certain games. And it seemed like Ben really,
like... He overly focused on getting the run
game set up and establishing the play action.
Yeah. Where I think Johnny Moe hasn't forced
things quite as much. Like he seems more willing
to adapt. Now, small sample size. But let's let's
take the opening drive. The Lions get the ball
and march down the field. And every time they
ran into trouble, he pivoted. And that was the
outlet. Yeah. And that was the touchdown that
Montgomery threw. Wasn't it on the opening drive?
Yeah, it was the Brock right. But it was now
is the second touchdown. The opening drive touchdown
to go to Laporta. It was from golf. Oh, yeah.
That second touchdown was Montgomery to Brock
right over the middle. And Brock writes another
guy did not have a very good game at all, but
was rewarded with a touchdown catch So he had
a pretty porous game across the board in my opinion
blocking and and just in general play as far
as Laporta goes He was injured at the beginning
of last season, so I think we chalked his absence
up to the fact that he was getting a slow start,
but then he never got really brought into the
game plan. I just didn't see him getting a ton
of opportunities from the quarterback. Now, he
seems to be a major piece, especially on third
downs and first and second downs, for that matter.
He seems to be getting the ball more often, is
what I'm saying. I think this was one thing that
was predicted at the beginning of the season
is that Johnny Morton uses that tight end a little
bit more. Think you're a hundred percent correct
and early returns right now I am very very pleased
with the hire of Johnny Moe I wasn't when I have
to say I was very dubious of that hire But I
am through five games a hundred percent sold
on him And Kelvin Shepherd called up a great
defense our guy Jack Campbell played a great
game The flowing blonde locks of Alex Alonso
Loney were everywhere. He played a great game
as well. Hutch is officially back. He was so
disruptive. And what a shame on that strip that
he had that Arnold had to get whistled for. I
mean, can we just dwell on Arnold for a second?
I know we've torn this guy limb from limb on
this day. Chet, Chet, you are on the couch. I
am your therapist. Go. I cannot stand. So let's
we'll start with the sack. Sack for safety that
didn't happen because because Arnold mugged Jamar
Chase Who was not even being looked at by Jake
Browning? He was on the other side of the field
Browning never even looked over there. So Arnold
is Mugging the guy beyond five yards just to
keep up with him And this is what bothers me
a little bit about Arnold. He he doesn't seem
to have any cover ability He either mugs it,
you remember how many pass interference calls
he had last season in his rookie season? We kind
of chalked it up to, okay, he's a rookie. He's
trying to play aggressively, blah, blah, blah.
It seems now that, okay, he doesn't commit the
pass interference, but he loses the guy. He had
seven last year and led the league. Who didn't?
Arnold had seven PIs last year and led the league.
Yeah. I mean, that tracks. So he was kind of
a very physical coverage guy and I sort of liked
it, but I was like, he's got to learn to cover.
properly, so he doesn't commit all these penalties
and give up all these yards. Well, now he's just
mugging guys even when they aren't in the play.
I it was baffling to me that I mean, maybe maybe
his mugging of him kept Browning from looking
that way. I have no idea. All I know is it seemed
like it was unnecessary, and I think it was pretty
disappointing. You saw Campbell kind of looking
over like, what the heck are you doing? And even,
you know, Hutch, of course, disappointed. Hutch
probably should have had three sacks in that
game, and I think he ended up with one or two,
or maybe he should have had four, but he got
two of them called back due to penalties. I will
say, like, just as far as Arnold goes, I don't
think he's got it. I think we've seen everything
we're going to see from Arnold. And I'm kind
of done watching it. And if he doesn't watch
out, one of these other guys is just going to
get his spot. If he isn't a liability in every
game, one of these other guys will get his spot.
I'm looking at a couple other guys out there.
Rakyasin, he was your guy at the start of the
season back in training camp and preseason. You
were on him. He had a great game. I thought he
played quite well. He did. Can I do? Yeah. I
do a fun one while we're on. Yeah, yeah. Okay,
so I looked up the recap on ESPN's NFL draft
from the 2024 draft. He was the 24th pick. Yep.
And he played at Alabama. You're going to depress
us now. No, I just I just want to read this to
you. Massive steal. Arnold is the second corner
on my board, but he has the same grade as QB1
Quinian Mitchell, who the Eagles took and is
the 11th. Overall player on my board this pick
might even be better than the Eagles getting
Mitchell at 22 The Lions trading up to get Arnold
makes it close And he slid to 24 probably for
a reason because 23 other teams saw that he wasn't
Well the Lions traded with Dallas to get up to
grab them because Mitchell was already off the
board Who knows maybe he turns a corner maybe
he and for that matter Jameson turn a corner
and become all pros every year. I don't, you
know, we're not going to sit here. He's two years
into his career, but so far it looks really bad.
It looks like one of the other D backs we would
have drafted 10 years ago, 12 years ago that
never panned out either in the first round. Remember
when we went through a streak of that, the lions
did drafting D back after D back in the first
round and none of them ended up panning out really
at any rate. The other guys filled in. I like
Avante Maddox out there, too. You can tell he's
a veteran. Gets the job done. Trey Flowers, who
I think has been on the team for three days,
ended up having to play. The injuries are starting
to look a lot like last year back there in the
defensive backfield a little bit. Does that scare
you at all? Petrifies me. So. Why don't you do
some PFF grades for us? But yeah, no, I'm scared.
So I kind of gave you the offense. I've kind
of been just filtering them in here. Yeah, yeah,
no, I think it's great, but I know you had to
come out here. The highlights on our defense
were Jack Campbell and Aidan Hutchinson. As you've
already said, both of those guys graded out above
90. Hutch was a 91 .6, Jack Campbell a 92 .8.
Anzaloni. and Al -Qaeda Muhammad. Al -Qaeda had
a nice game, by the way. Quietly had a nice game
and opened things up real well for Hutch. I tell
you what, the traveling man, he can play on our
defensive line as long as he wants. So far, he's
been quite good. He and Anzaloni were in the
mid 70s, nothing to sneeze at there. And then
Roy Lopez makes an appearance in the top five
at 74. I didn't notice him, but he did something.
And then you've got Kirby Joseph rounding it
out. And Kirby, you had some, you had some interesting
info on Kirby. The Lions D, if I can just comment
on Roy, well, yeah, they eliminated the Bengals
ability to run the ball. Yeah. And Austin. And
I think a lot of credit needs to go to Roy Lopez,
DJ Reader. And I know you've kind of been hot
and cold on him, Tylek Williams. So what I was
going to say though, Kirby Joseph within interception
yesterday. is on the same trajectory. And actually,
the only safety that had more interceptions at
this point in his career was Hall of Famer Ed
Reed, who I consider probably the greatest safety.
You're not going to do much better, Ned. I really,
really, really embollish on the Lions already
getting a deal done for Kirby Joseph. I hope
they do the same, and I'm sure you feel the same
way on Brian Branch. And then... We'll just have
to figure out what's gonna happen with the secondary,
but it seems like the Lions do better with these...
Rock. Yes, and Reclamation projects. Yep. But
then they do drafting in the first and second
round, because we still haven't seen, you know,
the second round pick from Missouri, Enis Rake
Straw, because he hasn't been healthy, so...
True. Yeah, so the only guy that had a low grade
was Terry and Arnold. He's the only one worth
talking about. Everybody else was 60 or above,
which is fantastic for a defense. The defense
is good. Yeah, the defense has been has been
playing quite well now. They've been going up
against some some cupcake offenses. I mean, the
Browns, you know, you saw the end of Flacco there.
You get the Bengals without Joe burrow a better
test would have been in with Joe burrow, but
without Joe burrow So we'll see what happens
here next week against the Chiefs. Do we want
to talk about that game? Yeah briefly the Lions
are one and a half point dogs right now and On
the early line what I'm seeing it's plus 110
on the money line I would I am not expecting
the Lions to win this game. I think arrowhead
is gonna be rocking and this is for our listeners
that love T -Swift. She just blew open the box
office, basically ruined The Rock's film career
by drawing 37 million in for three days on her
new movie that you can only see for three days.
And I just feel like all the momentum's with
them. I feel like if Decker doesn't play, the
Chiefs will, Chris Jones will feast on Jared
Goff. Yeah. And that worries me. I hope Decker
does play. I hope Ali McNeil is healthy enough
to play, but I don't have a good feeling on this
one. Yeah, you're going to get Chris Jones and
George Karloftas, who are the top two defensive
line players for the Chiefs, and they can wreck
a game by themselves. They're both very good.
I really hope Decker is back for this one. I
hope we rested him against Cincinnati just so
he would be back for this game. Otherwise, I
don't see us being able to handle that left side
of the line is going to be collapsing quite often.
And that's not where it stops. They've got some
other guys in their line. They brought some promising
rookies in. You know, the Chiefs are going to
be a level above what we've seen for the last
two weeks. I'm with you. I don't think we win
and I don't even think we cover. I think our
defense will do a decent job. It'll depend. How
many defensive backs do we have healthy for this
thing? I think our defense will do a decent job.
I don't know. It'll come down to our offense.
Can our offense perform? Which they have. For
weeks on end, now four weeks straight. Can they
do it against a good Chiefs defense? In Vegas,
Vegas has the total at 49 and a half. The only
game that's higher is the Bears commanders at
50 and a half. So it's going to be, there's going
to be some scoring. Correct me if I'm wrong,
but the last two times we played the Chiefs,
this thing has been a low scoring affair or a
fairly low scoring affair. Yes, I believe we
struggled to cross 40. Yeah, both of those games.
That's not what the that's not what the Sharps
and Vegas are saying So we'll see. All right,
Bill. So give me your fantasy football angles
What are we looking at here for the Chiefs Lions?
Who do you like? Usual suspects Ahman Ra first
down calling the automatic plug -in. Yeah, he's
plug -and -play so is Gibbs and I know Laporta's
coming off a good game. I think Johnny Moe is
figuring out ways to use him. Until I see more,
I'd say, you know, Jameson's and Big If on that.
And I do see a day, possibly by Thanksgiving,
early December, where Tesla or Coleslaw is -
Think his day might be coming. I do too. He had
another nice touchdown grab this past weekend
and you got Khalif Raymond who, man, I hope he's
okay. He took a hell of a shot there. I know,
I know. I hope he's all right. But if Khalif
is out, this is enter Isaac. And he is going
to probably reap some benefits. If Khalif is
out. You hate to see it happen that way, but
the room had to be made for him to be able to
get some opportunities. So I like your call there.
I'm going to go, I'll tell you what. I'm going
to go with Gibbs in this game. This is a Gibbs
game, in my opinion. I think they're going to
be staying out of the middle. Chris Jones, Karloftas,
those guys are going to be clogging that middle
up. And I think they're going to have to go out
around the edge. That doesn't mean. that, you
know, Nick Bolton can get out there and tackle
him just as well, but from that linebacker spot.
But I think Gibbs is going to be more effective
in this game. And I think as usual, if you're
not starting Amon Ross, St. Brown and every single
fantasy game you ever have where he's in playing,
you should quit fantasy. So he's he's a automatic
plug and play number one top spot for me. Other
than that, yeah. the chief side of things. Obviously,
if you have Mahomes, go for it. Xavier Worthy,
holy cow, those guys might have a field day.
Yeah, yeah. And then I personally wouldn't start
Hollywood Brown, but he is their leading receiver
right now. He has 209 yards on 22 receptions.
I think that's due to Worthy being out for a
couple games. But only one touchdown. Yeah. I've
got a fun one for you, though. It's not so much
fantasy. Well, it is fantasy. If you have a Chiefs
running back, don't even bother. They're leading
rusher for four games because they're playing
tonight, Monday night against the Jaguars. Guess
who their leading rusher is? Gosh, it's going
to be somebody goofy. It's not. It's not Mahomes,
is it? It's Mahomes, Chet. Lord. Well, that's...
22 carries for 130 yards. I have the Chetko on
one of my squads, and I'm like, what happened
to this guy? He's gone. I mean, he is just not
producing at all now. So he's been relegated
to... I think their offensive line can pass block.
I don't think they run block well. They may not
run block well. So I have a feeling their passing
game is going to have a day on us. Travis Kelsey
might have a day on us. I agree. I worry about
any of those. those guys, so if you got them,
play them. I would say worthy, well, Mahomes
worthy, Kelsey are your plays. If you have a
Chiefs running back, sit them. And Hollywood
Brown. He might pop a big one. Hollywood Brown
could get, we are susceptible to the deep ball.
So that the lines are Hollywood, Hollywood could
catch one going down the sideline and take off
with it and never come back. So it's very possible
we could get beat there too. but I would rank
him down toward the bottom just on percentages
alone. Agree. So, uh, and sorry, the money line's,
uh, negative 105 for the Lions. I'm seeing way
away from anything on the Lions side of this.
That's for sure. Yeah, same. If you do anything,
I'd take the Chiefs and they'll give the points.
I would do the same and just avoid it from there.
So we'll be back with you. Please check out our
sister pod, the Detroit Tigers litter box and
go Lions. Go Lions.