All right, we are live. How we doing? We're doing
good, man. I'm glad to get you on. I had another...
let's say educator on earlier. Okay. That was
Craig Migliaccio. Yeah. He's a great guy. I mean,
it seems like he's dedicated his life to... teaching
people about HVAC. He's a good guy. To break
into this, let me start off by asking you, tell
me your story about how you got into the trades,
maybe before you got into the trades and then
how you got into, aren't you teaching now to
some degree? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all
I do. I mean, well, okay, that's not all I do,
but I'll get into that. So long story, I basically
you know, I moved out of my house really young
I moved out of my house when I was 16 Was homeless
for a while was had two jobs while I was going
to high school Ended up doing getting going to
school for electronic engineering and You know,
I graduated I liked it. I mean I had a good job
But I like really didn't dig it as much as what
I think I probably would have I got laid off
from a job and I was looking for a job in the
you know that when you when you're on employment
they're like hey you gotta you know keep applying
for jobs is like okay so I did and I ended up
getting a job doing water water treatment for
industrial cooling towers and boilers and I knew
nothing about refrigeration nothing at all and
you know I met met some guys like myself and
I was like what do you do and they're like we
make shit cold I'm like how does that work So
they got me interested and I was like, well,
how do I get into it? And they're like, well,
you can either go and go to the union, which
I tried, or you could just go to school at a
local community college. And that's what I ended
up doing. And I went for I think a full semester.
Go ahead. I want to ask you a question. You said
you tried union. Where are you located? When
I was trying union, I tried the local 420, which
is the Philadelphia Steampitters. Um, that's
the only union. Okay. So Pennsylvania is a big
state, like you can drive eight hours through
it. You know what I mean? So you got the Pittsburgh
union. Um, I forget what the number is. They're
going to hate me for it, but then then you have
the, the four 20, the, the, the pipe pipe fitters
in Philadelphia and it's, you know, Philadelphia
is like, you got to know someone that knows someone.
You know what I mean? And I don't, I didn't know
anyone in this. Like it's usually, you know,
second, third, fourth generations later that
it went through the steam fitters or whatever.
Right. So that's where I tried in the Philadelphia
Union. Um, then, uh, so like I said, I went to
community college. I went through for about a
semester and I talked to the instructor. He,
I was like, how am I doing? He's like, you're
doing great. I said, I'm going to come back next
semester. He's like, no, you don't have to. I'm
like, what do you mean? He's like, well, you
got, you know, electronics in this trade is probably
75 to 85 % of what we deal with. I'm like, okay,
so what should I do? He's like, um, you got the
theory down, just go and get a job. So the first
job I ever got was residential. I work for a
guy, you know for a bit and you know first three
weeks working for the guy, you know I was the
biggest piece of s that he ever met and I was
never gonna mount to nothing and Normally when
someone tells me that I get real petty and I'm
like, you know what? I'm gonna show you so I
basically just kept fighting and fighting and
you know, we went through it through residential
then do then did commercial HVAC You know rooftop
units and stuff like that. I got interested in
market And just worked my way up. I even I made
a pit stop and doing air compressors for a little
bit like industrial air compressors or anything
from like a five horse up to like a thousand
horsepower. So I learned I learned the high voltage
side. So like, you know, because a lot of big
motors that big, they have like wide Delta start.
So like three contactors, you know, you've probably
seen split split winding part winding start,
right? We have two contactors. One pulls in and
then the other one pulls in after the other one
just to give it a little boost. So it doesn't
have as much in rush. I haven't seen that but
okay well in in big industrial stuff you know
big big motors when they're just using 460 uh
they use wide delta so you have m1 s1 and and
m2 so m1 and s1 pulling the same time and then
it sounds like it switches gears kicks out s2
and then or s1 and then kicks in m2 and then
freaking wow and then gets up to full speed that
way it reduces the amount of of inrush uh part
winding start is used a lot in in cities where
they have like voltage problems. Like when I
used to work down in like Philadelphia and stuff,
your voltage in summertime could be like 183.
You know, so the voltage goes down really, really
nasty. But anyway, I worked my way up, did some
industrial stuff. My mother had passed away when
I was in Pennsylvania, which, you know, I didn't
want to live there anymore. So I moved up to
Connecticut and did commercial up there for about
five years. And then I realized how much I hated
snow. Mean, so it's it's so like this is the
thing like a group in Pennsylvania right and
like snow stuck around till like February in
Connecticut it sticks around till April like
it's just it's just miserable I found out a really
important lesson my first year there Like you
have to snow blow on four feet of your driveway
like on the grass because typically by about
January There's nowhere to go with it anymore
because you'll get 36 inches at a shot You know,
I walked out one morning, I stuck my level in
there, I was 32 inches tall, where the snow over
the overnight. So I moved where there was no
snow or if there is snow, it's gone by noon.
So I moved down to Texas. I've been down here
for 11 years now, about. I started with CoolSys.
I started just a regular service technician,
moved my way up to, you know, service supervisor,
ended up doing, you know, teaching people how
to like resolve issues rather than just band
-aids. And I did that for a branch. We grew the
branch from 14 people. We had 53 sites and we
were working 85, 120 hours a week. And I'm lazy.
Like, like, like not to the point where I'm just
like, oh, I'm not doing this job, but I rather
work smarter, not harder. Right. So I taught
the guys on how I was diagnosing stuff. They
were bringing my balls because it was the same
issue. And they, then they realized that the
compressors were lasting longer. The stores were
running smoother and they're like, well, we want
to learn. So anyway, so we ended up doing that.
Within two years, we got the branch up to 53
technicians, 193 sites at least, and we were
only working 65 -85 hours a week. So what I do
works. That's better. That's a hell of a lot
better. Well, commercial refrigeration is as
nasty as it is, you know, as far as hours. So
then since I did that with the branch, they were
like, you know, the boss would complain about
the other regions. I'm like, why don't I do the
same thing? But I'll do it like every other week.
I'll travel so then I started going to Oklahoma
San Antonio Corpus Christi Rio Grande Valley
You know all over all over the region so I did
that and then It was it became really repetitious
and then I quit but they didn't let me quit They
they were like they were freaked out that of
the fact I was quitting and then they brought
me into a meeting They're like, what do you what
are you doing? I was like, well, I'm bored Well,
why didn't you come to me? I was like, what was
I supposed to say? I'm bored. I need cooler stuff
to do So basically then I became what I was doing
there, but I did it on a national scale So I'd
fly out to Georgia fly out to wherever and you
know Fix other things and then educate the people
because we'd engineer this awesome stuff But
like maybe the support in that region didn't
know what was going on with that support that
stuff So I go out there teach him how to work
on well fix it for fix it first So I get my nugget
around it and then teach them how to work on
it And then one day after COVID, they're like,
you're in charge of training. I'm like, OK. So
I've got a team of subject matter experts. I
got an instructional designer to do stuff in
some of the Canvas stuff. And after that, I kind
of had my fill of that. And I was like, you know
what? I think it's time for me to go independent,
because by doing what I do on the podcast, I
can I can hit a lot of different people. Like,
it doesn't matter what color shirt you have on,
you know, what color hat you have on. It doesn't
matter. I can hit a broader scope of people.
Do you enjoy the teaching or you like getting
your hands out there fixing stuff? Well, so both.
So usually what I'll do is I do two different
things depending on what the need is. Like, I
also do commissioning. I also do startup, but...
Like for teaching wise what I'll do is we do
two days of theory on the one thing and then
we do two days FAFO. Like basically take the
theory that we just did and then basically put
the rubber to the road on the equipment that
I actually taught on because like I don't do
a broad training like I pull the programs back,
I go get all the electrical diagrams, I look
at the manufacturers of parts they have in there,
and that's what you get taught. You learn everything
about that damn piece of equipment. So it's not
like you're randomly like just learning, oh,
this is a booster rack, and you're just talking
about random shit about it. You're learning the
nuts and bolts, you're learning the program,
you're learning everything about it. And then
two days we... screw around with it. So like,
okay, let's do a PM. Let's change some filter
dryers. I never pumped down a CO2 rack before.
All right, let's do it. Because then I'm there,
you know, we got 13, you know, eight, 13 technicians,
whatever. If it breaks, we got enough bodies
here, we can fix it quickly, you know. And then
the other thing that I've been doing is with
the greener guys. I'm actually going to Colorado
this week to do this, where I take eight guys
in a mechanical room, usually have a lead with
me. I teach them the way that I diagnose, because
it's proven to work, right? and then basically
just build off of that. And so the first day
I get there, Monday, I'm just doing a meet and
greet with the managers and see what we're gonna
do and what technicians, what store, print out
all the material that I want. And then basically
we go to the store on the first day, the rack
room is loud as hell because things are short
cycling, things aren't working right, whatever.
And then I just teach them the way that I...
you know, that I diagnose things and tune things
out. So literally, usually by Friday, it's great
because the room is actually quieted down because,
like, from yelling over the mechanical room,
I sound like that lady from the casino that just,
oh, I'm gonna need one more Marlboro and one
more nickel slot and I'm gonna win. That's what
I sound like at the end of the freaking week.
But those are the two different things that I
do as far as training wise. Like I said, refrigeration
mechanics are falling on the sky and most schools
out there don't cover commercial refrigeration.
They cover HVAC. They cover residential HVAC.
So all the rest of the stuff, commercial HVAC
and all this other stuff, they don't really teach.
You know what I mean? Unless you go to a specific
school. That's like a two or three year program.
So I basically I take because like, here's the
problem. You'll have a guy from ice machines,
a guy that's done residential HVAC. You'll have
a guy that's done commercial HVAC. You'll have
a guy that's worked on self contains. Well, here's
the problem. They all diagnose everything the
same or I'm sorry, differently. So what I do
is, I give them a direct methodology on how I
do things, so then everyone's diagnosing the
same. So it doesn't matter if Jimmy calls Billy,
which is called Mike, which is called Mark, it
doesn't matter. Everyone's diagnosed the same
thing, so everyone's learning the same damn way.
I also enforce this with having a team lead on
site. The reason why, like a manager, because
you know, one that actually manages their group
of guys, because I can teach all these guys how
to do how I'm teaching, but the manager might
not be privy to how I'm doing things. So he has
to be there as well. So one, so he knows how
I'm diagnosing things, but also two, then what
I can do is then break off the guys in groups.
These cases need... like first thing we do is
typically go to the rack and tune out the rack.
Make sure the rack is full charge. Pressures
are good. Temperatures are good. You know, we're
not flooding back. We got good oil. Great. We
got enough refrigerant. It's subcooled. Whatever.
Then we go to the cases. Okay. These cases are
five degrees of difference. Refrigeration racks
like in... Supermarkets. Supermarkets. Yeah.
Okay. That's what all my toys are behind me.
Those are all supermarket rack controllers. I've
only seen a few of them or most of those that
I have seen have been in videos. I don't work
on big refrigeration racks. Yeah, yeah. But yeah,
so like I said, so then the other thing is like
because electrical is one of those hard things
for technicians to do and learn. I usually break...
I did say electrical, right? I didn't ADHD there.
Okay, good. You looked at me like, I thought
I was like, did I say refrigeration? Well, because
electrical to me is the easy part. So 208 controls
can be a bear, right? because you know people
people will check stuff to ground and like no
that's not right um so and the schematics can
be kind of you know cantankerous right so anyway
so i'll spend three hours with a group of two
guys basically working on electrical where we'll
follow through everything the sequence of operation
then i'll be like you leave And then I'll screw
something up. I'll move a wire over on a staycon
that doesn't exist, you know, something, you
know, because like the first thing people usually
do is they're like, I'm just going to hit reset.
So it's just because something will turn back
on. But then, you know, but then they'll see
they're like, oh, well, I got electric going
through the wire, but it's not going anywhere
else. So like when you pull wires off and like
move it somewhere, like if you have a spade connector
right here and usually the spade goes around
top, I'll just move it over. So it looks like
it's on the spade, but it's not. But then they're
forced to use their meter and follow, you know,
follow, I teach them hopscotch, right? So if
you start from L1 over to L2, you'll get 208.
And then when you lose the 208, you're like,
oh, there it is. Because basically remember,
a meter measures the difference in potential,
right? So if you measure nothing, then you're
on the same damn wire. Yeah, exactly. You know,
I always tell people before they change a motor,
always make sure... It's getting voltage. Make
sure it's getting the voltage that you want it
to get. It gets funky now though with with with
inverters and stuff. So like like freak drives
first time I ever hooked a meter up to a you
know the output of a frequency drive. I'm like
wait a minute this thing's supposed to be getting
460 and I'm only getting 230. And it's because
the frequency, the voltage actually changes with
the frequency. Yeah, and a lot of that stuff's
proprietary and they don't want you to know exactly
what they're putting out. So it's hard to tell
if it's doing the right thing or not. Well, so
on our frequency drives, it's not proprietary.
Like it's linear. Like, so if you're running
30 Hertz, because you know, most shit that we
deal with in the US is 60 Hertz, right? Unless
we overdrive it. So 60 Hertz, if the motor is
460 and it's out, it should be outputting 460.
If it's running 30 Hertz or 50%, then it should
be running. 230 volts. So it's linear. The problem
is with your shit, you don't know the signal
that you're giving it, right? Because the board
apparently does it. That's the logic they don't
freaking tell you because they're all about,
oh, it's about mass flow. I'm giving it a zero
to ten signal, brother. So at five volts, it
should be running 50 % or 30 Hertz. Well, that
makes sense. You know, some of the newer stuff
coming out is allowing us to use a 24 volt control
and at least with that, we can tell it's getting
a call. Yeah. You know what I mean? At least
we know it's supposed to be running, but with
some of the communicating stuff, all you can
tell is that, hey, it's putting out 16 balls
DC, so it's supposed to be communicating. You
don't know what it's telling and it's real frustrating
trying to diagnose that stuff. That's why I like
commercial because there's no, there's no way
friends are buds. You know what I mean? I'm giving
it because like in order to make a VFD work,
like our VFD is right. We have to have power.
We can't have an alarm. We have to have a enable.
which is usually a closed set of contacts that's
saying, hey, you're good to run. And then the
last thing we need is basically a signal. And
if we have those things, basically it should
run. Um, I mean, uh, it sounds similar to the,
um, VFDs on carrier blower motors on some of
their commercial rooftop units. Yeah. The, like
the ABBs and stuff. Yeah. That sounds similar
to what those are like. Yeah. Um, and they fail.
All the time. Most of them I come across are
bypassed. Yeah, I think personally, I think it's
the humidity. I think there's just way too much
humidity in that damn thing. Where it's just
it's it, you know, because if you look at every
VFD, right, there's going to be a. there's going
to be like what it's allowed, right? Like what
it's allotted to be as far as the temperature
and the relative humidity. You know what I mean?
So a lot of times you'll have ice -ups and then
the thing will start, you know, blowing water
towards the drive because I know where they're
talking about. You know, it's usually mounted
fairly, you know, chemical, you know, fairly
close to the coil and where the blower motor
is. I'm like, why? You know, they don't want
to mount it on the outskirts. It's in the compartment
with the blower motor. 100 % the only bitch of
the only bitches about our drives. There's like
there could be potential like 200 different parameters
like there's only like honestly like 20 that
really matter but like you could change something
else like I've had people fiddle screw around
with with a drive and all of a sudden I can't
get it to work even though I have all the parameters
set and then sure as shit like the guy from the
factory is like reset it just reset it to factory
or the other option is with a lot of our drives
you know you can you can like on that ABB when
you're talking about you can actually take the
program that you that you put in the drive you
know transfer it to the fascia right and what's
nice with a rooftop unit you might have five,
five ton rooftop units. So if you have one that,
you know, shits the bed, you could basically
take, take the program from that, put it to the
face. You take the face off, go over the other
rooftop unit that you're putting in the new drive
in and throw the parameters in. I didn't know
that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know the facial was
removable. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Cause usually,
usually it's sometimes they have it like a little
remote and it's actually just a on the ABVs.
I think it's an ethernet, ethernet cord. that
you can extend it out. So you don't have to be
up in the drive. You could actually, if it's
the one that I'm thinking of because I used to
work in a lot of carriers, you can actually put
an ethernet cable and I'm one of those, you know,
on a lot of the rooftop units they have like
a plastic pop out so you can put your gauges
and shit through. You can do the same thing with
that thing. So like then you could sit outside
the drive and fuck with the programming instead
of being right in there, you know, messing with
the drive right in front of it. Yeah. Well, let
me ask you one thing. You told us how you got
into the trades and your path of getting into
it. Yeah. I feel like many times I would like
to be able to tell high school graduates that
college may not be the right choice for a lot
of them. So I'll ask you if you could give advice
to that group of people and maybe people looking
to get into the trades, what's the best way to
do it? So, you know, there are some companies
now that are doing their own programs, right?
You know, some commercial, you know, some commercial
places are doing their own programs as far as
getting into the trade, you know, which is better
for them. It's better for you too if you're working
on that type of equipment. There are some trade
schools out there. Be mindful and do your research.
There are some schools out there that are just,
I just care about numbers. As you keep, you know,
I just, I want, I want to get, I need, I need
a quota of 30 technicians going through here.
And like, you know, contractors are left holding
the bag because they taught you how to put on
a set of gauges and told you you're going to
make 40 bucks an hour. Um, you know, unions,
unions are a good way to go too. Um, You know
the days of the days of you having a like a guy
like you right you know having an apprentice
for you know for you know six months to a year
those days are way over everything's all about
profit you gotta pay pay you know pay your stuff
so it's it's it's hard to get that kind of education
anymore and I think the more I teach the more
and more I teach I come to the realization that
it's not it's not so much the the book stuff
That's that that people are missing. It's the
you know, some people call it tribal knowledge
Some people call it street knowledge the stuff
that you know You know people like you and I
have worked our way up and learn this shit either
from another person or learn from experiences,
right? You know you working with someone You
know for me first off find a place that you can
get educated a little bit too is do your own
damn research As far as like I read all the time
the time. And I'm dyslexic as hell. So like sometimes
if I read a book on one subject, it doesn't make
any sense, then I'm like, oh, I'm gonna read
this book and it's about the same subject, but
it's just worded just a little bit different.
I'm like, oh, I get it now and that means I got
how another one was. But if you can, if you do
finally get in somewhere, make sure that you
get someone, you know, someone that you're working
with. Ask questions. Ask questions. Don't be
afraid to ask, you know, I'm gonna ask a stupid
question. The question that you add that you
don't ask is the stupid one. You know, one of
the places I worked at, they just didn't have
a really good culture of the guys getting along
with each other. It was more like we were pitted
against each other competing with each other.
So nobody wanted to ask anybody for help. I eventually,
I mean, that was really like my second job as
a technician and I got to the point where I was
competent and people were friendly with me. So
they would call me for help. And I enjoyed helping
other people and some of those guys I still have
a good relationship with. I became friends with
them, but not all workplaces kind of encourage
that environment where you can ask for help.
So so one of the things is like when I when I
was at when I was at the Dallas branch like you
know I ended up being a leader and like you show
being a leader by You know pick up that phone
Like pick up the phone. I don't know how many
times I scared the shit out of poor guy, like,
cause he wasn't expecting me to show up. I'm
like, I'm my wife's already mad at me. I'm already
late. You know, I'm already late going home.
It's 10, 11 o 'clock. And I was like, you know,
Hey, this guy's done like a five time call back.
Let me just show up. And I freaking pop up in
the motor room. Like, what are you doing here?
I was like, man, just checking to make sure you're
all right. You know what I mean? It's, it's all
about building the culture from the upward, you
know, from the upward down. Um, a lot of times
people were like, man, that guy has, has been
doing this shit 20, 30 years and he still works
as hard as I do. And like, He's willing to help
me and a lot of time like that breeds man Like
you see you get you get a couple guys like that
like, you know The the guys that you're bringing
up and those guys have that same like, you know,
one guy called me He's like, how do you? How
do you get people like interested in being it's
like and and I'm like, it's just you it's it's
you just you know showing that you're gonna pull
You know, you're putting your weight in as far
as like, you know helping out everyone And it's
usually like, it's contagious. Like, you know,
you get a good culture going and you'll get a
good company going. Yeah. Well, my problem when
I was trying to grow my business, I had trouble
just attracting good people and keeping them.
There were a couple of good people that, I mean,
I'm competing with big companies that have 401ks
and retirement plans and healthcare and... That's
hard to compete with. So I felt like all the
really good ones were taken and I'm left with
the bottom half of the labor pool. So it was,
it was difficult. It was difficult. Let's put
it that way. This is when you started your own
business or when you were working? When I was
trying to grow the current business I have, I
got up five employees. Two technicians and an
installer. There was always a technician with
the installer when they would go out and do a
job He was basically like a metal man and somebody
answering the phone So I was trying to grow it.
I was trying to do the right thing. But um It's
just hard to get those good people who you can
trust and you know Build your company around
the right people. It's hard. It's hard to do
that. It really is No, I agree. I agree. It's
you know, but like I said, it's trying to build
that culture up, you know what I mean? So like
if you take, you know, take guys that don't,
you know, that don't know anything, you know,
you invest in them and you know, they're like,
wow, this guy's willing to give me a shot, you
know, and investing that time into that person.
A lot of times it just, like I said, it breeds,
it breeds, you know, good culture throughout
the company, right? Well, let me ask you about
your podcast. How is the social media in the
podcast? How is it affecting how you work? And
do you use it as part of your work? Not I Sometimes
like I mean like cuz I honestly like I don't
it's gonna sound so shitty We never know what
we're gonna do until about 10 or 15 minutes before
like we're like, what are we like? Oh, like what
time you gonna be home? I'll be home for 30.
What do you want to do? And we'll figure it out
later. So like I'm talking about your podcast.
I'm talking about the podcast. They were like,
I have no idea what the hell we're going to do.
And then we just riff like we'll rip. So like,
well, like we'll have the conversation. Like,
what did you work on this week or what did you
train? And then Kevin will ask me, what did you
train on? What did you work on? I was like, wow,
I was working on this Kaiser Warren FTE, blah,
blah, blah, blah. And he's like, okay, let's
do that. You know, and that's what we'll end
up doing. Like, you know, I, so like a lot of
times I use the stuff that I do during the week
into the podcast. Like, you know, it's It's not
a, you know, it's like we never, and we never
really like kind of set out to be like, we're
going to be awesome at commercial refrigeration
podcasting. You know, like it was just like,
we were just trying to get people educated. So
no one died, man. There was so much bad information
out there. You know what I mean? Um, you know,
just from the comments on my videos, I know there's
a lot of bad information out there and I correct
some of the people and sometimes some of my viewers
correct them. But there's a lot of, um, misguided
comments. Let's put it that way. Yeah. We, we,
we don't, we never pull vacuums. There's no reason
to pull vacuums. You can just purge it real good.
I've seen a YouTube video on that or work fine.
Oh, you can do it. No, I know. I'm not saying
it's going to work out great, but you can do
it. But that's, but that's the kind of stuff
like people will misconstrue like, you know,
what people say or like, I mean, I saw some guys
like, I don't have to pull, I got this Mr. Cool
system. All I did was have to just open up the
one valve and just purge it out until I started
the spritz spritz. And then once I got the spritz
spritz, then I stopped. I had a comment. Um,
I had a dryer on the inside of a condenser and
I changed it and I put the dryer on the outside.
And one of my comments was. why are you changing
the dryer? Why don't you just pump it down and
leave it on the inside? I guess technically if
you pump it down, it's gonna maybe stay dry,
but I've been taught anytime you open the system,
you change the dryer. I feel like that's the
right thing to do. So that's. Why I'm doing it.
It depends. Yeah, like it like on the stuff like
a commercial rooftop. Absolutely, totally, totally,
totally agree with you. But you're not going
to change all the filter dryers on a rack every
single time you open up that system. You know
what I mean? You have your ball valves and isolation,
you know, isolation parts of the system. You
know what I mean? So you can isolate the, you
know, isolate a part of the system. It's not
like you're, you know, we're like, you're very
critical on most of your charges. And when I
say critical charge, I'm talking like five, 10,
15 pounds. You know what I mean? Because We'll
throw 800 pounds and something 1200 pounds of
one of the racks I worked on the other week had
4600 pounds of CO2. That's high pressure stuff
isn't it? Yeah only on the highs only on the
one section of it literally from the one discharge
line up to what we call the high pressure valve.
Operating pressure is usually like 1 ,300. Well,
when it's hot outside, it can work as high as
like 1 ,450. The high pressure usually shuts
off the compressors at 1 ,550 and the relief
goes off at 1 ,740. At that pressure, are you
using steel line sets? So there is a stainless
steel line set or you can use, you know, black
iron. But also, they have this material. It's
called XHP. We're not really original in the
United States. It stands for extreme high pressure.
On the piping it actually has, unlike on copper
fittings, you'll see FECU. And FECU is the periodic
table for iron and copper. So it's actually,
it's iron smelted copper. It actually has iron
in it. Huh? to give it strength correct so the
working pressure and it's like 1885 so that's
why you can do the pressure of 1740 or whatever
for your relief because typically field piping
has to be you know through is it mz or i don't
know it's one of those one of those things with
the international mechanical code where usually
field piping needs to be 10 rated It needs to
be able to run 10 % higher than what the working
pressure is, you know what I mean? So if you
do a leak check on it, like if you're pressurizing
the system for the first run and the relief is
1740, then you better pressure it up to like
1885, because that would be essentially 10 %
or whatever on the field piping anyway. But like
I said, usually that high side, everything else
on commercial refrigeration for CO2, they're
using not L copper is what we're typically used
to ACRL. We use K copper. A little bit higher
of a burst rating. Because it's basically anything,
any from the thing from the liquid side on is
basically 410A pressures. Well, is it a thicker
copper? Because most of our copper is just a
sixteenth of an inch thick. Yeah, a little bit,
yeah. A little bit thicker. I don't know the
actual dimensions. I'd be lying to you. I just
know that there's L, L, well there's M, L, K,
and then you have this XHP stuff. Will I Don't
I don't want to get into what you've been working
on today So we just start what were you working
on today? I actually I Kind of didn't work. I
had a lot of doctors appointments got my I got
I donated some blood today And then that's why
you were able to join the cast today Well, I
mean I like I mean I had should I have to do
but I just I had to I was doing a lot of doctors
appointments and stuff today And then I bought
I bought lemons, lemons and pomegranates. And
I was just actually when you called because like
you told me six forty five and I was like, oh,
I got time. It was six thirteen and I was just
finishing making. But it was I was time time
change because I'm on Central. You're on Eastern.
Right. And I was like, when you're like, where
are you? I'm like, I'm coming. I'm coming. Like
I just finished cleaning up because I just finished
the pomegranate juice. Oh, and then I was making...
I got a touch of the pancreatitis, so I'm nursing
some chicken broth here. Oh no! Take care of
that. That's... let go. Yeah, I know. I know.
My mom died from pancreatic cancer from chronic
inflammation. Really? Yeah. Yeah, we want to
stay away from that. So that's what I'm saying.
So like this week, I'm like, yeah, I'm going
to hit the chicken broth and the beef broth and
the veggie broth this week pretty hard. And then
I'm trying to eat a little bit better. Because
I was doing good for a while, and then I didn't.
Then I ballooned up a little bit. When I went
to AHR last year, I was kind of heavy, a little
bit heavy. And so I had to buy a bigger suit.
I had to buy a fat man suit. I tried to put on
my one from the year before, and I looked like
Chris Farley. That guy in a little coat. So yeah,
so then I had to buy a new suit and I was like,
yep, time for a diet. So I'm currently sitting
around 240. I was up to like 260. So I look like
a linebacker. Are you going back this year? I
have to. Uh, I won best podcast last year. So
I got to give away the award. Oh, that's right.
So you got to present. Yeah. Well, has anybody
reached out to you about presenting? Uh, no,
actually nobody's reached out to me either. Really?
I spoke with, um, Rachel, she got ladies of the
trade. Nobody's talked to her either. Shit. We're
already in September too. I didn't even think
about that. I mean, I mean, I'll be an HR, you
know what I mean? Um, but I don't want to, I
don't want to be that guy. Cause I mean, like
it was, it was cool. Cause I was the first guy
to move to, to get two awards, you know? Cause
like I, I, dude, I didn't prepare a speech at
all. Cause I'm like, cause you know, Ben's like,
I was, I was, you know, when I found out I was
nominated, um, You know cuz they have you know,
they call you and be like, well, you're gonna
be there I'm like, yeah, I'll be there, you know,
whatever excited to present for for the mentor
one that I got, you know the year before and
And so when I found out I was I was you know
nominated I'm like and Ben's like I was like,
can I win twice? He's like it's never happened.
Like he made it seem like it was a just this
impossible thing. I'm like, I Guess I'm not gonna
win. I was like, I'm not gonna fucking write
a speech whatever and then I'm like I'm like,
uh, I didn't do anything. I didn't really prepare
anything either. I just said, what was it on
my mind? Oh, and the first year, the first year,
like I had everything planned. I'm like, I'm
like, I'm, I'm, I'm hopefully I'll win this mentor
of the year thing. I had something written down
on my, in my tablet. I had some written down
on my, on my little book. um and I forgot both
those things when I went running up to the freaking
table up to the up to the podium so I'm like
what the fuck did I write down I have no idea
off the dome it goes dude I'm gonna tell you
a true story about all right I wasn't really
I didn't know if I was gonna win or not I don't
think any of us who were nominated knew who was
gonna win when I stood up after they called my
name I felt like there was a breeze in my pants
and I wanted to look down to make sure my fly
wasn't unzipped. Did your pants split? But I
was too embarrassed to look down. So I walked
all the way up there, not knowing if my fly was
unzipped. That's what we call Southern air conditioning.
I did, but luckily it was. No, it was it was
weird cuz like it was it was the first time I
got up there like I lost all I Don't know what
happened. I don't remember everything I said
I had to go back and like watch what I said.
I'm like, I Don't remember what I said. It's
like I mean like the first time you go up there
like I mean like I listen I've taught in front
of like like Max I probably ever taught in front
of is probably like a hundred and hundred twenty
five people You know what I mean with like big
like auditorium style where like you're you set
up for it's like almost like auditorium seating
or whatever Like even then like you're just you're
going off the dome of like, you know When you're
when you're doing a presentation about stuff
because you've taught it a bunch of times I mean,
but like I was like, I don't I don't know. I
don't know what I said I had to go back and I
was like, you know, am I getting canceled for
something? I said, I don't know Well, it was
a fun event, um, most of the people there were
like, um Instagrammers though and I'm not real
big on the Instagram. I'm trying. Like if y 'all
are listening, there's a link to our Instagram
pages. Scrolling underneath. I'm trying to grow
the Instagram, but my main platform is YouTube
always has been. So I felt a little bit out of
place because most of the people there were Instagram
influencers. Like I said, everyone's like, well,
how, you know, how do you grow in your thing?
How are you growing your, your, your social mediums?
Like I'm not. Like, I mean, if people want to
listen, people can listen, you know what I mean?
Like, I don't, I'm not like, I never have set
out to be like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna
build this big, you know, brand name and do this
and do that. I'm just like, I mean, we, we do
it cause it's, it's, it's a little bit of therapy
for me. Um, cause we just get to bullshit about
the problems that we deal with and stuff like
that. And like, and the other thing is too, man,
it's cool. Cause like, I get a lot of people
that are like, man, I, you don't even understand,
like, how much your podcast actually helps or
like i've had people from schools be like hey
do you mind if i if i if i if i use your stuff
to teach stuff i'm like i don't care that's what
it's there for you know what i mean like you
know we we make a little bit of bread off it
but it's it's enough to keep it rolling and you
know my time that i put into it you know as far
as the recordings and the editing and shit like
that but like like my my my main job is my main
job you know what i mean like i write curriculum
for other people and stuff and You know, I, man,
I got so much stuff going on. Like I, I just,
man, I should probably invest more time in the
podcast, but I just don't. Well, I'm going to
tell you, uh, the YouTube for me got to the point
where it generates enough of an income for me
to wake up and focus on it a little bit. Oh,
really? Okay. You know what I mean? Instead of
just kind of haphazardly throwing out videos
when I can. to making a point to edit and produce
something and try to do a good job of it and
I don't know, cultivate that because it does,
it does pay and it does help out. Yeah. I see
some of the stuff like that that I do, I got
to be careful with though. Like, like, you know,
I work, you know, a future green now is an engineering
firm first and foremost. Right? Like they brought
me on because You know, I could, you know, help
build as far as clientele, as far as, you know,
what I do as far as field services and stuff
like that. So, like, a lot of the stuff that
we deal with courtesy, there's a lot of NDAs.
Like, I can't talk about a lot of the stuff that
we do. You know, I'd be in violation of breaking
said NDAs. When I teach, it's a different story
because all the information for a lot of that
equipment is out there publicly. Whatever but
like you know some of the stuff that we've engineered
and that we've designed man is is like specially
shit that we you know that that We you know,
we built we've designed you know what I mean?
So, you know, we're not a mechanical contractor
We're an engineering slash commissioning slash
will figure out something that no one else can
figure out with your system wrong You know what
I mean? Essentially what the company is? That
reminds me on When I went to I recently went
to the Milwaukee pipeline event And part of it
was a tour of some of their facilities and they
made us sign an NDA before we went in there.
And I'm thinking, we're going to see some really
cool shit now. And it wasn't groundbreaking is
what you would think. They basically told us
why their batteries and whatnot are better than
the others, but they don't want us telling you
why. Just, I mean, just a little stuff like that.
Well, everyone, you know, in anything like this,
like everyone has their own sauce that makes
their brand or, you know, their devices better
than everybody else's, right? You know, and they
don't want that getting out because a lot of
times it's a marketing thing too. Like I called
the manufacturer the other day, manufacturer,
I'm just gonna call him Voldemort. That's what
I usually jokingly refer to people that I can't
name the actual manufacturer. I'm like, it's
Voldemort. He who cannot be named. But anyway,
so I called them and I was like, I can't find
any information on your watering system. And
they're like, yeah, we do that on purpose. I'm
like, why? It was like, well, cause you called,
didn't you? I'm like, it worked. It worked. It's
good marketing. Because there's some, there's
some, so we use, we use in the hotter climates
that are less humid, we use what are called adiabatic
gas coolers for CO2. It's basically a condenser,
but the only difference is it's, in your, you
know, something they could put particular to
you, it's basically a fucking swamp cooler. So
what we do is we basically put, you know, like
a humidifier pad, drip the water across the humidifier
pad, drops a wet bulb and, you know, and it makes
it cool, humid air, and then you get more efficiency
out of the condenser, or what we refer to in
the CO2 world as a gas cooler, and that's what
we use. Well, some have pumps, some have a pump,
and they control the flow of the water off of
the humidity sensor, trying to maintain 100 %
humidity, and this other brand, Voldemort, basically
uses a Venturi. So they put X amount of water
in, you know, to pump it up to, you know, let
it feed up into these feeders across these humidity
pads, but any water that's left behind, they
can't have a pump because a pump is, there's
a patent on a pump. So basically they take the
water that's left behind and run it to a side
port on a venturi. So as you're filling up fresh
new water, it pulls up the water that's sitting
in that little bit of a drain up in the side
of this thing to reuse it. They can't use a pump?
Yeah, so there's a dumb patent out there. There's
one manufacturer that uses a research pump. It
only has a 20 20 gallon sump. So it doesn't use
a lot of water and they have the patent on the
technology to use the pump which is asinine to
me because we've been using pumps for for her
freaking for cooling towers forever. So I don't
I've never looked at like I I've I just don't
want to pay the rights to use their pump. To
use their their idea of what they have for the
pump. Yes So like there's three or four different
manufacturers like we're gonna do it this way
because then it's not and then we don't have
to pay for the patent rights You know First time
I saw a swamp cooler. It was on one of these
guys that makes videos out with And I just thought
that was crazy because down here, the relative
humidity is almost always high. Even in the middle
of winter, it can be 50%. Can I, can I share?
Can I share my screen? Yeah. All right. Nothing
bad. Promise. Let me see if I can... Sharing
without sharing goods. There we go. So that's,
that's an adiabatic gas cooler. So essentially
what happens is... The water gets dripped across
these pads, right up top here, like through either
a trough or a piece of PVC. The water drips down
along these pads, saturates the pads, and then
basically right here you can see... where the
actual coil is. You know what I mean? Where the
actual, what would be a normal condenser would
be. And so all you're doing is basically taking
water, dripping across these pads, making these
pads saturated and basically, you know, causing
the wet bulb temperature to get, you know, low.
So you're getting cool, humid air going across
there. So you get a little bit more efficiency.
So instead of having like, you know, typical
condensers have like a five degree TD. So what
does that mean? Five degree TD basically means
if the ambient is 90 degrees outside, I will
maintain a saturated condensing temperature of
95. So is this a condenser or is it like a chiller
coal? It is... so in CO2 we... it's essentially
the equivalent to a condenser, right? The problem
is CO2 has a very low critical point, okay? The
critical point of CO2 is 87 degrees saturated.
It's like 88 degrees saturated. So if it's 82
degrees outside and we're using that adiabatic
thing, then we're running what's called transcritical.
You cannot condense the refrigerant back into
a liquid state. So you can do the same thing
with R22. R22 has a critical point, but it's
205 degrees saturated, which is like 741 psi.
R404 has a critical point of 205 degrees or no,
I'm sorry, 165 degrees saturation, which is like
541 pounds. So if you got if you ran R22 or 404
in those pressures, the fucking the condenser
couldn't condenser. Like it wouldn't be a condenser
anymore. It would just cool the gas. So with
CO2, that's what makes CO2 awesome for heat reclaim.
Because typically like... So you know what heat
reclaim is, right? Where you take a little bit
of the vapor off the discharge line and basically
run it through a coil to reheat a store, right?
To keep the air conditioning running. With CO2,
you can actually get a hundred percent total
heat reclaim. So you can... All the heat that
you're putting into it it makes it amazing for
chillers Because you're basically using electrical
energy to chill down to chill down the whatever
process you're doing, you know beer Wineries
whatever but then all the heat that you're generating
that goes to the gas cooler You can use that
for reheat There's some places that have lowered
their LP consumption by 91 liters of LP a day
Because of all the heat that you're generating
off that shit We're like with a normal HFC. You
can only use about 20 % of the total heat rejection
because here's a problem Once you once you remove
the sensible heat now, you're fucking condensing,
right? Now you're basically condensing the refrigerator
into Into into a liquid right? Right co2 if I
keep it above the critical point I can't condense
which means all that heat that I'm using is basically
to all the total heat rejection So It almost
sounds like like you're adding a different heat
reclaim is like a separate condenser where you
actually lower the temperature even more and
then bring it back and try to condense it. Is
that what you're doing? No, no, we use we use
heat reclaim for a bunch of different processes,
right? So we use the discharge gas of the CO2
to either heat up water or heat up space. Okay,
so like you eventually got to get it down to
a liquid, right? Yeah, so we do that with other
valves that I haven't talked about. It's a high
pressure valve because if we drop the pressure
down to below the critical point, then we can
reconstitute that refrigerant back into a liquid.
It's all about the enthalpy. Like if you look
at a pH diagram, you'll be able to figure it
out. But like I said, if we get it, you know,
we'd have to drop the pressure in order to get
it to convert back into Back into a liquid and
we do that with there's a high pressure valve
on the system that we do that with But but that's
you know, like I said with with HFC is we can
only get about 20 % Heat reclaim out of like
the total the total load of the unit where you
can use the whole condensing load To heat up
water up to like steam steam temperatures. We've
heated up water to 240 degrees Fahrenheit And
this is all in big applications, like at a supermarket
or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or industrial
facilities. I mean, shit, do they, they make,
uh, they make CO2, uh, residential water heaters
now. Right. Not that I've seen. I, I've, you
were at it. You were at HR last year. You didn't
see them all over the place. Damn. There were
like 2000 exhibitions there. I didn't see them
all. What were you doing? I was cherry picking
the ones that I wanted to go see and I would
go visit them and then try to peruse as I'm walking
through and see what was there. There's just
a lot there. And there's, there's even heat pump
water heaters now. Well, that's what I'm saying.
That's what, that's what these are. Those are
CO2. Some of them are. Yeah. And tell me what
plumber is going to be working on a CO2 heat
pump. They're not they're just gonna replace
it I'm not I'm not just saying they're doing
it. I Mean it's you got to remember to Curtis
like we have to use we have to use this XHP copper
because of the Because of the size of the copper
that we use, right? But you got to remember every
time you go down a diameter and piping the piping
stencil strength like strengthens up, right?
So you could use you know, three -eighths pipe
on CO2 and even for the high side, probably I'd
have to look at the... I'd have to look at like
the chart, but I mean you might not even have
to use the extreme high pressure piping because
the three -eighths line, it might... the burst
rating might be high enough. It's bad enough.
We got the deal with A2L refrigerants and now
they're talking about... Not for long. What do
you say to that? And so like there's this there's
this there's a vent and I'm definitely going
to next year hell or high water I'm freaking
going next year. There's a thing called chill
Vanta. It's a it's a it's it's like Your it's
it's in it's in Nuremberg, Germany So I'm definitely
going next year because that's where my family's
from. My last name is Wetzel. And so basically
it's like a big HR, but like all the new technologies,
all the new technologies usually come out from
Europe. Chilvanta only happens once every two
years. So it happened in 2024. I missed it. I
was pissed. And then I'm going, you know, I'm
going 2026. But they didn't have any A2Ls there
because Europe's like, oh, paraben's bad. you
know, for the forever chemicals because A2Ls
actually have it. So they're getting... a lot
of places are getting away from... Dude, there
was just a thing in ACR news, man. Come on, A2L,
it's not much different than a, it isn't different.
No, the thing is with me, they just retrofitted,
all the prices went up and you're telling me
it's fixing to happen again? Until they find
something else. No, that's why Europe's like,
fuck it, we're going propane, we're going, uh,
ammonia and we're going. I heard that they're
going to start using propane. Oh dude, I worked,
um, I worked on a, uh, what is called a monoblock
system. Basically it has, so here's what's fucked
up about the laws. So it says you can't have
more than 150 grams per system, right? So what
they did was they put four compressors in a system
that has one evaporator that work in unison that
hold 150 grams a piece. So you're actually up
to 600 grams of propane, but it's not. Is it
one system or is it four tiny systems? It's four
tiny systems with one common evaporator, so...
But it's like a walk -in. So like, this is what
a monoblock is. So basically it's, you know,
it's one single evaporator for a walk -in freezer,
walk -in cooler. So the bitch is with A2Ls, right?
So we're all under... or I'm sorry, not A2Ls,
but propane. You're under a charge mitigation,
right? So you can only have this on 150 grams.
So you can have a coil... That's one ton. That's
let's just say, I don't know, I'm just gonna
take guess at shit. Maybe it's fucking 24 inches
long, right? But I can reduce the size of that
coil by putting more fins per inch. Normally
a walk -in cooler usually has about eight or
six fins per inch. I'm sorry, six or four fins
per inch. Maybe it is eight. I don't know. I
forget now. I think it is eight. It's eight and
six. So you can shorten that coil by putting
more fins in there. Problem is that if you put
more fins in there, it's going to collect more
frost, more moisture. You know what I mean? Ice
up quicker, right? Right. All right. That's why
we don't run a freaking air conditioning system
down below 38 degrees saturated or 36 degrees
saturated, right? Because then it's going to
start to freeze up. So because of the charge
mitigation, they were like, we need to put more
fins in there because by reducing it, you got
to remember an evaporator has a bunch of fucking
liquid in it and a little tiny bit, a little
tiny bit of vapor. So if we can make the coil
smaller and put more surface area on it, then
it reduces our charge mitigation. Problem is
if it's in a high humidity area, good fucking
luck. And then you just have to do more defrost.
So that's one thing that they're having problems
with. There's like, whoa, it's icing up a bunch.
Well, we got to keep one of the 150 grams. So
we got to put more, you know, more fins in there
to mitigate that. You know what I mean? It's
not, it's not like a freaking air conditioning
coil. I mean, I don't even know what the fin
per inch is like, you know, you have pretty tight.
It's like, it's, it's probably like, I don't
know the 12 or 14 fins per inch. Like it's fine.
It's tight, man. You guys have those, the, the
fin combs that you guys use to straighten your
shit out. Yeah they're they're they're pretty
tight and they get clogged up real easy. And
so like on walk -in freezers you know they usually
use um like four fins per inch you know what
I mean like it's it's you know four or even even
six. Depends on how much humidity and how much
you know, how much how much walking in like you
have these We call them POS POS coolers and freezers
and doesn't mean piece of shit. It's point -of
-sale So like you'll have a main walk -in that
has a whole bunch of doors in it They'll have
shelves right in the front where they stock the
product from the walk -in Around these little
shelves and basically, you know, you can open
up the door grab your milk grab your ice cream
whatever but people still leave the door open
they're like I can't see through the glass so
I gotta open up the door in order to check out
what I want. You know and then they have the
door open real real long and then it sucks in
a whole bunch of humidity. You know something,
one of my first introductions to a real big walk
-in freezer, we let the door open because we
were stocking it and it started snowing in there.
Yeah. I couldn't believe it. I guess just bringing
in all that humidity and it just started freezing
and it started snowing. I had never seen that
in a walk -in freezer before. If it's a high,
yeah, yeah, if it's super, super, super high,
yeah, you'll have that. So when I worked on air
compressors for a little itty -bitty bit, because
they needed someone that worked on refrigeration
for their air dryers. So they use pneumatics
a lot of times like in... walk -ins, you know,
big, big packing places that have a lot of refrigeration
going through. And so, they run the doors off
in pneumatics. So, you have to keep the air dry
in order to use it. Otherwise, it's water, moisture
will freeze out and you know, fall out. And I
used to... when I worked on air compressors,
they had... they were using these things called
syntax. They're centrifugal air compressors and
they use them to freaking make snow on the mountain
that I grew up near. Really? Yeah, they just...
it's... they use copious amounts of water and
then air and then it basically fucking creates
snow. That's how... that's how they make snow.
That's cool. Well, Brett, I think I'm gonna go
ahead and call it. Alright. I still have to get
in the shower before I go to bed. Alright. Well
man, I appreciate you having me on. I'm sorry.
Like I said, you got to be more specific because
you're like, oh yeah, 6 45 central time. And
then I was looking, it was like at six 13. And
then I saw your text me and like, where are you?
I'm like, but you, but you said six 45 my time.
Hey, well, I hope you'll come back on. Oh, for
sure. Of course. I appreciate you having me on,
man. Thank you so much. No problem. And y 'all,
um, stay tuned for the next episode. Thank you
for coming on Brett stick around.