Hello, I'm Ben Diamond, a product manager and
inventor of consumer products. And in this podcast
series, Why the Fork, we're going to be looking
at the everyday products in your home and office.
The type of things that you take for granted,
but are really quite clever. We're looking at
the humble objects you touch every day and asking,
why are they like this? We're going to be exploring
how politics, economics and social change encourage
the development of new solutions, how great engineers
and designers came up with them, and how ideas
don't just come from nowhere, they're inspired
by trends and needs. You'll also see how often
the designs we've ended up with aren't quite
perfect, but are good enough. But that's not
all. We're going to be chatting to some of the
designers and engineers tasked with developing
the next generation of these products. to see
what's on the horizon and if they will evolve
again or disappear entirely. This is a podcast
by D2M and we'll be talking with Phil Staunton,
our product design expert, later. In this episode,
we're going to be looking at our first mundane
product. Well, actually, it's quite a fabulous
innovation that you definitely have in your home.
The humble tin opener. Before we can explore
why the tin opener is such a clever little device,
we're going to go back in time. You may know
the tin opener was created 50 years after the
invention of the tin can and the rotary opener,
that's the one in your drawer, 100 years after.
You will probably wonder why it took so long
for someone to work out how on earth to open
the container people had been preserving food
in for the last 100 years. Let's step back in
time. 230 years. It's in 1795, the heyday of
the Napoleonic era, and France is fast becoming
the biggest empire in the world. But it's hit
a snag. Without a good food supply, the French
Navy's operations are at risk. It must find regular
friendly ports in order to fill its ships with
salted meats and fresh food. What Napoleon and
his armies really needed was a way of preserving
food long enough for it to get around the world.
So like many great innovations, this one started
with a political push from the government for
12 ,000 francs. Napoleon asked the inventors
of the time to find a way to preserve food that
wasn't salted meat in wooden barrels. Step in
Nicolas Appert, whose process to preserve pasturized
food in glass jars was fantastic. The beef three
-fourths done, I put into jars which I filled
up with broth. Having corked and wrapped them,
I placed them upright in a cauldron. The next
day, I besmeared the corks with resin in order
to forward the bottles to different seaports.
At the end of a year and a year and a half, the
broth and boiled meat were found as good as if
made the day they were eaten. His preservation
technique was brilliant. It's the first time
that food could be cooked and stored for longer
periods. It also took him about 20 years to work
out. Next, Philippe de Girard in France noted
the fragile glass would break and decided to
do the same process, using metal cans. Now, these
tin cans aren't the ones in your cupboard. These
are thick rolled steel. Very similar to the processing
technologies available to the Navy. Think like
little cannons. And this is common in innovation.
Technology being adapted from one industry to
another. Thick steel cans lined with protective
and expensive tin to stop reaction with food.
Our cans are still coated today. Oh, and sealed
with lead, which is poisonous. He tried to patent
it. And then, like great innovations, it was
then stolen by the British and taken up by Brian
Donkin, who's like the superhero canning, who
commercialised it with the first canning lines
in London. We see this pattern often when invention
happens in one part of the world and is commercialised
by another. The British Navy, having successfully
bought or stolen this great innovation from the
French, started supplying their armies with canned
foods in 1831. That's only 36 years after Napoleon's
competition. You'd imagine at this point someone
said, let's invent something to open this delicious
food. But let's just think about the situation.
These newfangled cans are replacing barrels of
salted meats on ships. And to open barrels, you'd
use crowbars and hammers and chisels and the
like. And military ships have tools aplenty.
All you need to do is use the same sort of tools
you already have lying around the ship. And the
cans are so much better, the food's so much tastier
for the troops, that you're willing to compromise
with the bother of opening. Many times, existing
products are good enough that consumers don't
ask for a better solution. And in this case,
the food in the tin can is so much better than
the barrels of salt that the inconvenience is
just too small. This explains why it took so
long for the opener to be invented. And our societies
were very different. The well -off would have
had servants and would have had the tools available
in big houses and therefore there was no need
for a specific opener. And servants are not educated
to invent a better process. A working class person,
if you're able to afford a can, you're very likely
to be in the mechanical trades and therefore
you'd have your own tools as part of your job.
Until there was an emerging middle class who
didn't have servants, were in clerical work and
didn't have the tools, there was no need for
dedicated openers. One of the brilliant advantages
of the can is that it allows you to preserve
food for longer. This is, you know, 100 years
before full refrigeration. In the Great Exhibition
at Crystal Palace in 1851, 40 years after the
first cans, We start seeing tins being proposed
for the middle classes, as well as luxury foodstuffs
being available to people all year round. Sardines
and truffles, artichokes and turtle soup, tin
desserts, strawberries, peaches or peas. The
exhibition is attended by royalty and about a
third of the population in Britain. It's like
the CES of the Victorian era. It's the biggest
mass marketing event with demonstrations of the
latest technology including lifts and photographs
and food from all over the world brought to you
by the tin can. And there was an evolution of
the tin can forming process, from heavy metal
welding to forming and seaming, driven not by
the need to get in, but the need to get the cost
down and speed of production up, the cans themselves
becoming thinner and standardised. With this
great exhibition marketing push to both the wealthy
and the middle classes, and the technology of
the thinner cans, now an opener was wanted and
feasible. It was time for the tin opener. The
earliest can opener, a hook knife in 1840 in
Britain and then 1858 from America, are a bit
naff, cumbersome and complex and not suitable
for domestic use. It was Robert and Frederick
Yates, a UK instrument manufacturer, who developed
an improved can opener in the 1850s, just after
the Great Exhibition. Yates' is a G -shaped implement.
You might have one on your Swiss Army knife or
on the side of an opener today. You push the
pointy end through the can's surface. which takes
a lot of force, and then using the curved sharp
edge to ratchet through the lid, working along
the thin edge. If you've ever used one, they're
great for getting into the tin, but it's hard
work to open. But so much better than the hammer
and chisels that preceded them, and suitable
for domestic, servant -free middle classes that
the canning industry were targeting. In fact,
when we hit the Second World War, we were still
mainly using these ratchets. A folding lever
version, the P -38, was distributed to the US
Army troops for their canned rations. After 138
years, we were still using the very similar technologies
to open cans. There are limitations. You cut
yourself on the sharp raised edges and contamination
of the food because of the coatings and swarf
from the tin can itself. The opener was slow.
Basically a sharp knife being hammered in as
late as 1950. There's room for improvement. We
don't know what the inventive process was. Perhaps
a creative workshop or a series of many prototypes.
But in 1925, the US Starwheel Company developed
the first modern rotating gripper can opener.
Followed a year later by Charles Arthur Bunker.
which is the design you have in the drawer today.
Both use the familiar two -handed levers that
help grip the can like a pair of pliers and forces
the first puncture of the can. The star will
drag the cam along the tin. It's simpler and
cheaper, but it was superseded by the bunker.
This clamps onto the side of the tin, which is
then guided around the crimped edge of the can,
the bit that sticks up, focusing the force on
the lid. A pizza cutter like Will, of hardened
steel, slices the thinnest part of the lid using
shear force. What's fascinating is the shearing
effect means there's less force applied by you,
like a pair of scissors slicing through wrapping
paper. The smooth edge of the can helps guide
the opener. Holding the rotary wing acts as a
lever and it magnifies the force being applied
to the metal. A set of knurled cogs transfers
that movement of the wings, drives the cannon
around and rotates the cutting wheel with consistent
force. It's quicker and safer and leaves no sharp
serrations, much more effective than the ratcheting
of the old Yates' G -shaped openers. A good sharp
rotary opener will leave very little shards and
a smooth cut. Overall... A very clever invention.
The similarities with the Starwheel and the Bunker
are perhaps not surprising. Rotary cutting was
a known art in fabric cutting and refining it
to work on the can was complex but within reach.
But they are very similar in design and operation
and it's not surprising that Starwheel took Bunker
to court for patent infringement like our big
tech companies do today. Starwheel lost. On a
technicality, the position of the knurled roller.
It's flat on the top of the can for Starwell,
but not for Bunker. When the defendant's device
is placed at right angles to the top for the
purpose of trying to cut the wall of the can,
thereby preventing the knurled roller from performing
the function that it does in the case of plaintiff's
patent, the knurled roller lies flat on the top
of the can. That cannot be done with the defendant's
device. That's the District Court of Missouri
in 1930. Interestingly, in the case, Bunker describes
they cut the side wall, not the top of the can,
but consumers just found the easiest way to use
the opener, like the existing Yates' G -shaped,
through the lid, even though the designers intended
it to cut the side wall. Much later from the
60s, we start to see the electric tin openers,
and Paul Posniak and Keith Longstaff, a sidewall
seam opener. That's those that are specific to
open the sidewall rather than the lid. But fundamentally,
the rotary opener design hasn't changed much
in the last 60 odd years. Now it's not perfect,
it still leaves sharp edges, although nowhere
near as dangerous as Yates's, with its serrated
edge. And you need good dexterity. Now I know
what you're thinking. Ben, what about key tin
openers? Think Tom and Jerry's sardines. A key
that you wind round the middle of a can of bully
brief or spam that allows rectangular containers.
They had been around for about 30 years after
the Yateses, but they were costly and unreliable.
Meanwhile, in the drinks can category, the ring
pull, which was developed in the 60s and eventually
replaced with the aluminium pushing, was transferred
to the tin can. Suddenly, you no longer need
an opener. You can just lift that ring pull end
and access the beans. Is this game over for the
opener? Well, we have about 40 cans in our larder.
All have the ring pull, except for four of them.
And these are on the economy brands. For economy
brands, the ring pull is just not an option.
It's too expensive. This suggests that the opener
has a big role to play in allowing people to
access affordable preserved food. Then there
is plastic packs. They can be resealed, are lighter
and easier to get into, and have a better marketing
image. But we all know how bad multi -laminate
plastics are for the environment. And we also
have refrigeration and more glass packs, so less
need of the can and its opener. But these methods
of food preservation use a lot of energy and
create a lot of waste. So I wonder, with a very
easy to recycle can, which does not use energy
to store or contribute to plastic waste, see
a resurgence as energy gets more expensive and
being sustainable becomes more important. Will
we therefore see a new generation of canned goods,
canned marketing like the Great Exhibition and
a resurgence of the tin opener? Although the
fundamental principles of the wheels and cogs
and levers haven't changed much, the likes of
Oxo Good Grips and Joseph & Joseph have made
beautiful designs that are more comfortable to
hold and that are more ergonomic to use, particularly
with those with arthritis. So I wonder, have
we reached peak tin opener? The can preserves
food wonderfully. It's easy to recycle, really
versatile and has a standardised format without
needing power. It's incredibly convenient. A
lot of innovation can still be done to get rid
of the sharp edges, help people who have mobility
limitations and provide a really cost -effective
solution for economy brands. The experience of
opening tins of beans still leaves a lot to be
desired. They get caught on the sharp edges,
cleaning the can, the lid scratches my sink.
And typically, when there's a category that's
underdeveloped, think tonic water before fever
tree, it's ripe for disruption. I mean... Where
are the laser cutter tin openers? We cut steel
in factories using lasers. A mini one could instantly
slice through the lid. No problem when you have
arthritis. So I think more innovation to come.
On a journey that spans 200 years, we've shown
how the tin can started as a competition in order
to feed the Navy. We've seen why it took 100
years of invention, marketing, social change
and supply chain improvement for us to see the
rotary openers we're familiar with. Why innovation
has continued to apply on both the tin, on preserving
food and on the can opener itself. And the journey
is not over yet. The can has a long way to go.
And with the sustainable challenges we face,
there will be more innovations on the humble
tin opener to come. Let's talk more about the
tin opener. Today we're joined by Phil Staunton
from D2M. Hi Ben. And why are you an expert on
tin openers? I'm not sure I'm an expert on tin
openers. I'm a product designer by background
and for the last 15 years I've run a small product
design company and we've worked on all sorts
of consumer products, some of which... I can't
say so much you can see behind me because it's
a podcast. You have to imagine, listeners, a
smorgasbord of products from backpacks to coffee,
percolators, and some strange medical -looking
appliances as well in the corner, I think. So,
Phil, this is the hardest question of the podcast.
When you use a tin opener, are you on the top
of the can or on the side? Are you a bunker or
a star wheel man? I am an on the top kind of
guy. But the problem actually in my house is
that our tin opener is designed for left -handed
people because my wife and my eldest son are
left -handed. And I find that a left -handed
can opener does not work if you are right -handed.
So four weeks of research in tin openers, I never
knew there was a left and right tin opener. So
that's clearly the first problem that any of
our designers need to overcome. overcome overcome
is an ambidextrous you know yeah because my wife
really struggles with the normal ones and then
actually i really struggle with the left -handed
one which basically now means that my tin opener
is my wife because i'm like i cannot use this
thing you do it you've listened to our fascinating
story the tin opener the fact that it took over
50 years for that first opener to appear as a
designer is that surprising It is surprising,
and that's partly because everything is so fast
now and design has sped up massively in the last
10 years. So with 3D printing technology and
3D scanning and obviously all the smorgasbord
of research opportunities via the internet and
surveys and all this kind of stuff, actually
you can move really fast in design now. So it
was a bit surprising how long it took. And it
was really fascinating to hear what you were
saying about why that was. One of the things
that jumped out, really, was that it came out
of a design competition, effectively. Now, I
thought design competitions were a relatively
new thing. You know, you think kind of like Earth
Prize or whatever with William and Kate. X -Rise.
Yeah. But it's not. It's really old. And it's
been around ages by the sound of things. So do
you think Matin has a future? Like, we've got
the plastic packaging. We've got refrigeration.
We no longer have to ship stuff on ships to keep
our navy. Well, maybe we do. Is the tin can dead
or is there a bright? Aluminium can in the future.
I don't think it's dead. There's a few reasons
for that. One is that actually the population
of the world is still expanding. And obviously,
in terms of developing countries, people are
getting wealthier bit by bit. And therefore,
there'll be more of a demand from those countries
for canned goods and things as well. And then
also, this might have a lesser effect, but there's
a small group of people that like to prepare
for when nuclear war breaks out. And they definitely
need stuff. I swear the word bunker came out.
They definitely need stuff. need a lot of stuff
in tins why is it not easy to open the tin opening
it yeah and it's not easy to open the tin because
because they actually vary quite a lot so in
terms of the thickness and the thickness of the
rim at the top and all that kind of stuff and
if you want to do it in a safe way that doesn't
end up with a sharp edge and doesn't end up with
shards or bits of the the kind of paper wrapper
kind of disappearing into the food it's actually
quite a challenge and then technically it's a
real challenge because It's actually got to be
really rigid. And that's why in some ways the
kind of original metal can openers from like
30, 40 years ago still work really well now is
because they were made in a much more expensive
way with much more kind of durable and robust
materials. I think a lot of the problems with
current can openers is they're made as cheap
as possible, inevitably in the Far East for the
mass market. But unless they're very rigid, they
don't really work. And that's very hard from
a designer's perspective because we're trying
to make something that's highly rigid. and cheap.
And those two things just don't go hand in hand.
If we just paid more for our tin opener, would
we get a better one then? We'd have better materials
or is it? I think that's true. Absolutely. I'm
very keen to talk to our next guest, Rob, and
ask him the same question because he's done a
lot more in terms of the design of the tin opener
than I have. But yeah, if you pay more, you would
certainly get something. Let's put it differently.
I think if consumers were prepared to pay more
for a premium product, then I think we definitely
end up with better tin openers that were more
ergonomic, easier to use, less pressure on the
hands, safer result by the time the tin was opened.
But if there was a tin opener on the shelves
for £250, is anyone going to buy it? Probably
not. But I guess this is the big question. So
if we look at other categories, and the vacuum
cleaner category is the classic market for this,
where no one would believe you'd spend £250,
£500 on a... vacuum cleaner and obviously several
brands have now kind of made lots of great products
for that category why is it that no one's done
the same thing on the tin opener yeah it's an
interesting question and my first answer to it
without your example would have been because
it's not on show and because no one else sees
it So in the pushchair market, for example, pushchairs
used to be, you know, 100, 200 quid. And then
Bugaboo came along and everyone was paying 500.
And now you can pay, you know, two grand. And
actually I just saw on just the other day for
4 ,000 pounds, a tie up between a pushchair brand
and Lamborghini. They'd done this kind of co
-branded pushchair. It was crazy. But the thing
is about that product, you know, people are seen
pushing it and want to be seen pushing the right
one and want people to know how much money they've
spent. And I think the thing about the... your
example with a vacuum cleaner is people don't
see that it's in a cupboard so you know why would
you spend kind of more on it there's another
big question in this question which is you know
are those expensive vacuum cleaners really such
a step up um that it's worth that money or did
people want to be talking in the coffee shop
with their mates about the fact they just bought
this amazing new vacuum cleaner and it does this
that and the other and you wouldn't believe it
and it it cost this amount but you know we could
afford it And I don't know the answer to that
as a product designer, to be honest. But I probably
ought to. I think there's a lovely tension here
in that cans are considered to be very cheap.
And you think the classic Andy Warhol picture
of all the Campbell's soup. And that was inspired
by the fact that he grew up very poor and they
were very cheap. And because they're considered...
a low -cost, convenient food, the tin opener
is then associated with that. And in fact, we
heard, you know, at the Great Exhibition, you
could buy turtle soup in this, you know, really
premium foods in it. So I wonder if that's where
the innovation needs to happen first, that the
can needs to be re -elevated before the can opener
can become the kitchen aid of can openers. Yeah,
you may well be right. And my hope would be that
as we move away from plastics and as we get more
concerned about microplastics in all of our brains,
now and all that kind of stuff that maybe we
will move to something that is inherently more
recyclable um and and i'd love to see some food
brands going you know we're only putting our
stuff in tins um you know rather than than plastic
because i think tin is and metal is still associated
with a higher value than plastic and so hopefully
maybe there'll be a premiumization there and
then maybe the can opener can come off the back
of that in terms of its kind of premium nature
as well so it's almost like the craft beer, you
know, how that's gone from bottles into beautifully
crafted cans with wonderful artwork. And that's
really lifted that category. Whether they're
ring pulls or not might be the question, whether
you need the tin opener. Yeah, that was actually
one of the questions I had for you, Ben. Oh,
go on, go for that, go for that. Would you rather
have been the patent holder on the can opener
or the patent holder of the ring pull? Oh, the
ring pull. Yeah, the ring pull. And the ring
pull's fascinating because, You've got to get
it cheap. It's mass manufactured. You can license
it to everybody and you get it out much easier.
And I think massive canning lines, because they're
producing big volume, it's much easier to put
that innovation on that line than it is to get
a single beautiful tin opener that you might
buy once when you do your kitchen or once when
you move out of home through all of the retailer
channels. So I think although the new tin opener,
the future tin opener will be amazing. financially,
the ring pool is definitely the better innovation
and the bigger impact you can have. Yeah, I think
I completely agree. But what's interesting is
in my work with D2M, as the founder of that business,
we've worked with 1600 odd clients over the last
kind of 15 years. And none of them have come
with something really unglamorous and unsexy
like a ring pool. They all want the amazing innovation
that it's got all these bells and whistles on
it and all this kind of stuff. Whereas actually,
a lot of the time, the money is in the mundane,
isn't it? I think that's why we're doing this
podcast as well, because, you know, we're creative
people. We're very good at coming up with the
brilliant new ideas and sexy, you know, products.
The stuff that has a real impact on the world
is the zipper, you know, YKK, that type of thing.
And those ideas are really hot. That's where
they're all challenging. They're really hard
engineering -wise, really hard business -wise,
and really hard design -wise. But they have such
a massive impact and wouldn't it be great to
do one of those and come up with the spoon or
the fork or something that everyone uses? Yeah,
no, clearly it would be amazing. And I think
that's the other thing is that people don't necessarily
realise that something like the ring pull or
the zipper has probably got 10 times as much
cost to develop as something that's much more
on the front of it technically complicated because
you've got to get the commercials of it down
pat. because it's got to be so cheap and so reliable
every single time. But that costs a huge amount
of money because you're going through constant
iterations to nail that design down. And guys,
that's why we love design. That's why we love
design. Phil, that was brilliant. Thank you.
Now we're going to switch to look at the future
of tin openers and introduce our guest, Robert
Van Varick. Hi, Rob. Welcome to the show. Where
are you, first of all? I am calling in from the
east coast of the United States. I'm in Bucks
County, Pennsylvania, which is just north of
Philadelphia. Is it a big area of tin can consumption?
That's the most important question. I mean, isn't
all of America? I think, you know, I think we
love our canned food. Maybe less so these days,
but yeah. So, Rob. First, can you introduce yourself
to everybody? Absolutely. So I am the Chief Design
Officer at Michael Graves Design. Michael Graves
Design is a storied design house and consumer
brand as well that has really been transformative
in the world of design over the last many decades,
four decades at least. We've created some of
the most... iconic products that people use in
their everyday lives and we really love uncovering
those sort of opportunities in the sort of humble
everyday objects that tend to go overlooked which
is why i believe you reached out to me for our
conversation today so i'm really excited to be
here thank you for having me you've designed
lots of different products for you what's the
one that you felt has been the biggest impact
the one that you're most proud of particularly
If it was overlooked? Oh, wow. Well, there's
a lot to unpack in that question. I've worked
on hundreds and hundreds of products over the
time that we've been there. And some of the top
hits I would say would be our transport chair
with Stryker Medical that's designed specifically
for the hospital environment. It's not every
day that you get to sort of reinvent such a sort
of archetypal product as the wheelchair. but
also just the time spent working on housewares
for companies like Target. And we just got to
design so many things. So, you know, my first
products that I patented were done for Target
and were in and out of the store in a blink.
So there was a lot of learning about how innovation
performs at the shelf. So, you know, if somebody's
looking at something new and they've never seen
it before. They're just going to move right on.
It was a really good education in terms of understanding
the constraints of where something's sold, who
the customer is, what the price point is, which
we can dive into. But more and more, what we're
really proud of is this focus on us being the
most accessible design brand. And we are looking
at everything through that filter of physical
accessibility, financial accessibility. And even,
you know, what Michael started his career on
and made his name in was humanism. But what we
like to sort of refer to it as like cognitive
accessibility. It was just that you looked at
something, you understand what it was. When you
talk about the cognitive, I always think about
the handle on the door that says push. And you
always pull it. You always pull it. It doesn't
matter if it says push. It's instinctive design.
This episode's about the tin opener, the can
opener. Is it tin or can in the US? We do call
it a can opener, but I can call it a tin opener.
I love that. But if I slip up and call it a can
opener, you know why. So the most important question
for me is, are you an on top or on the side tin
opener? So, you know, such a fascinating question.
I even tracked down. It's not mine. It's my business
partner, Donald Strum, who's our president, who
has worked at our company for over 40 years now.
But this was the original Target can opener,
which is not much different from OXO's can opener,
which this has been in my drawer for probably
25 years now. So this is on the side. And a lot
of it's because I don't open a lot of cans. It
really has more recently come to our attention,
especially through that like accessibility lens
of the on top one and how just like having one
handle and not having to like have that grasping
motion that this is so much easier to just sort
of put it on the can and then just start to like
turn and magically it cuts through the side of
the can. I don't know. I think my now that I
have this this new one, I'm going to be. trying
that out and using that more often. It's fascinating.
You talked about accessibility almost straight
away with that. And it fits really well with
the Michael Graves premise, doesn't it? One hand
being easy to turn. These are simple things.
Given the kind of thousands of products that
you've worked on, and I don't know how many tin
openers specifically you've designed, but have
we reached kind of the pinnacle of design of
the tin opener? I can confidently say no, we
haven't. And I say that because we're working
on a new one. It probably won't like kind of
hit where you guys are thinking of like, you
know, where things could go technological wise.
But I think there still is space, especially
from an accessibility standpoint. I grew up with
an electric can opener in my kitchen. It was
a installation there. So whenever you had to
open a can, it was so simple. But now it's like,
who's going to use up counter space for that
object? Which is too bad because we designed
one in the early days for JCPenney. It only made
it as a concept. It never made it to market.
But it was one of probably one of my favorite
objects from that collaboration. But it never
saw the light of day. And it just, man, it had
so much personality. But I think to answer your
question more specifically, we're always going
to see advancement in these products. It's just
always it's hard to predict where that advancement
is going to be. The pop tops of cans sort of
eliminates the need for a can opener. So it becomes
more of a commodity item. People stop innovating
as much on it. Similar to how we saw the integration
of ice dispensers on refrigerators really kill
the. ice tray design ethos and advancement you
know like that used to be a fun object that people
were like how else could we make it easy to get
ice cubes out of a tray and then someone was
like we're just going to make them come out of
the refrigerator and they were like oh that's
that's really smart i think innovation oftentimes
we innovate tools out of existence but a can
opener is one of those like foundational items
that I think will be around for a long, long
time. Because I think as you pointed out, like
there's still just going to be the need for like
a low cost can that doesn't invest in that extra
material and money to peel the top off. So you
got to find a way to open it. And it's in your
best interest to have a tool to be able to do
that. That isn't just, you know, a hammer and
chisel. Ben's got a fantastic idea that he wants
to run past you as an expert in tin opener design.
Do you want to share it? This is the inventor,
isn't it? We cut steel in our factories using
lasers. We have laser cut for steel up to really
thick steel. Why isn't there a laser cutting
for the tin opener? You put it on, it zaps the
lid, holds the lid with a magnet, and you just
pop it in recycling. There's no swerve. There's
no beans being stuck everywhere. Why? Why is
it not there? Ben, you put me in a hard position
because I don't like being the naysayer when
we're brainstorming. You're going to be the dream
killer, aren't you? I feel like I'm going to.
You know what? I think that one is an answer
that just comes down to cost and technology and
the investment to get that technology small enough
at just the right size and just the right power.
I think what it would need is... something more
than just cutting through a can you know like
i feel like it could cook the beans it could
cut the can and then now we're talking the beans
yeah this is why you never invite designers to
a brainstorm you know guys this is classic but
i think trees much the way the can took off as
an innovation was because it was needed to fuel
armies you know it was needed to fuel navies
um And so there was enough of a market size to
really promote that level of investment and innovation
and that investment in capital equipment. All
it takes is a tinkerer, you know, somebody who's
going to sit there and like work on making this
happen. It could be a 16 -year -old. you know,
at a tech school who's like, I did it. I've figured
it out. It's not just about the invention. Yes,
we can make a better tin opener, but you've got
to tell people about it, whether it's at Target
or whatever the channel is. You've got to market
it. There's got to be a big enough business case
to warrant that investment, both the design and
the capital and the marketing. And that market's
got to be really appealing for us to warrant
that change. And is that one of the reasons why
the tin opener's kind of stagnated? aside from
the aging population and maybe the questions
around sustainability, that there isn't that
market pool to kind of warrant the lasers and
the diamond -cutted blades or whatever might
be the next innovation? I think so. And it's
a mixture of that the market isn't there as much
as there is also opportunity elsewhere that people
are going to focus on. And it's just not the
shiny object. But to me, that's always where
something is ripe for innovation. You know, something's
ripe for something new is when it stagnates and
people are overlooking it. Then a company gets
the opportunity to come along and rethink it.
But to your point, Ben, marketing is so fun.
So I talked about my first patent. It was for
some tongs. I have them. They're here. These
are the tongs, right? You know, it was this fun
project. And I remember driving from, where I
live north of Philadelphia down to DC to visit
my sister. And that drive, I was just thinking
about tongs and just thinking about other objects
that close, but don't like have anything to pop
open. And I thought about nail clippers and how
like nail clippers have that fun sort of twist
around handle and it folds down and they're closed.
I'm like, well, why can't we do something like
that? And so that was really the impetus to these.
And so when you're done with these, you just
twist that. black heart and it nests in there.
And so it's never going to come apart. And it
was like, we were all so excited about this guys.
We were like, this is genius. We are going to
make so much money off of this. We patented it.
And it was in and out of the store in a year
because we would walk into the store and find
these things just like pulled apart and bent
because people didn't understand it. It was a
hard lesson in innovation requires education.
And the more you're going to innovate. the more
you're going to have to educate. Rob, you talked
about, you know... what makes it to the top of
the list in terms of what you're going to work
on next um and that's fascinating for me because
you know we've we've worked on you know nearly
2 000 products as a design agency and we're constantly
being that dream killer for people and going
look i'm really sorry but you haven't thought
about the fact yes that's the most amazing thing
ever but it's going to cost 300 000 pounds just
to tool it you know and all this kind of stuff
so what makes it to the top of your list when
you guys go yes that that's a winner that's what
we're going to work on next I mean, it's a great
question. And there is a pretty straightforward
list of constraints, one of which you just touched
on is tooling. So, you know, we're pursuing a
new line of gadgets, and we've budgeted, you
know, a certain amount of money for tooling.
But then in doing so, we're, you know, we have
a strategic partner that we're going to launch
it with, and that's going to help with the marketing.
So that's a big lift. That's a big investment.
That's where we look for partnerships in doing
it. But on items that we're like, hey, could
we bring this to market ourselves? We have to
think about tooling. We have to think about inventory.
We have to think about just the competitive landscape.
Who are we up against? Designers love furniture,
but furniture is like the most. competitive,
like saturated market, there's so much furniture
out there to choose from. So we're always looking
for these kind of what we term opportunity gaps,
where when we're meeting with people, when we're
spending time with users in their home, which
is a big part of our approach, you know, we just
spend a lot of time in people's homes, invited,
of course, but Sometimes not. Sometimes you're
at someone's house making notes on how they use
a tin opener. I'm not allowed to go to Nebraska
anymore. But no, it's, you know, it's just you
spend time and we're usually there to ask them
about one topic, one area. But we're really eyes
wide open when we're there and we're looking
at everything. We're looking at their space and
we'll often go off on tangents because opportunities
really are everywhere. it takes this really kind
of magical blend of looking for something that
nobody's doing, but doing it in a way that's
going to be like easy to grasp and easy to understand.
And that's really the sort of like mix that we're
always looking for. People always talk about
wanting something to be intuitive, but they also
want it to be innovative. And we're like, well,
those are two very different things because intuition.
isn't a real thing. It's intuition is a learned
experience that you have learned how something
works by seeing it done before. You know, we
know to push buttons because we've grown up pushing
buttons. For us, we're always looking at this,
this learning curve. And we're looking for opportunities
that are more down at the like low end of that
learning curve, leveraging known behaviors, known
rituals, you know, because changing habits and
changing rituals, that's where, that's where
you need a lot of marketing. You need a lot of
buzz, you know, you need a lot of product placement
and celebrity endorsement. And you got to get
people to be like, have this fear of missing
out of like, oh, well, I want to, I want to open
my tins with lasers. I'm getting rid of this
old mechanical thing. Did you guys hear they
have lasers for this now? Seems like a real hazard
with children, though, the lasers. Yeah, as you
were talking, I was actually thinking about the
regulatory challenges of lasers and tin openers.
Yeah, I think that government agency is going
to get that application. I am going to go away
and do the calculations now, though. What's next
for the tin opener? If there was one thing you
could do tomorrow to make the tin or the can
or the food preservation perfect, what would
it be? I think you're going to see that from
us in about a year. And man, but what a cliffhanger.
So coming up in season two. I think the same
opportunity exists for the tin opener as exists
for so many other objects in our lives. And that
is simply to look at making them better, making
them easier to use and making them more delightful.
You know, just we need more joy in our lives
now more than ever. Please, people, make things
more joyful. Rob, thank you so much for joining
us. Phil, it's been an absolute pleasure. Don't
forget to like, subscribe and tell your friends,
please. You know, anyone who loves design, engineering
and tin openers, they want to listen to this
podcast.