WEBVTT 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.000 Hello, I'm Ben Diamond, a product manager and 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:08.619 inventor of consumer products. And in this podcast 00:00:08.619 --> 00:00:11.900 series, Why the Fork, we're going to be looking 00:00:11.900 --> 00:00:14.460 at the everyday products in your home and office. 00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:16.960 The type of things that you take for granted, 00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:20.579 but are really quite clever. We're looking at 00:00:20.579 --> 00:00:22.899 the humble objects you touch every day and asking, 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.449 why are they like this? We're going to be exploring 00:00:26.449 --> 00:00:29.210 how politics, economics and social change encourage 00:00:29.210 --> 00:00:32.929 the development of new solutions, how great engineers 00:00:32.929 --> 00:00:35.530 and designers came up with them, and how ideas 00:00:35.530 --> 00:00:37.909 don't just come from nowhere, they're inspired 00:00:37.909 --> 00:00:41.869 by trends and needs. You'll also see how often 00:00:41.869 --> 00:00:43.850 the designs we've ended up with aren't quite 00:00:43.850 --> 00:00:47.109 perfect, but are good enough. But that's not 00:00:47.109 --> 00:00:49.229 all. We're going to be chatting to some of the 00:00:49.229 --> 00:00:51.509 designers and engineers tasked with developing 00:00:51.509 --> 00:00:54.310 the next generation of these products. to see 00:00:54.310 --> 00:00:56.530 what's on the horizon and if they will evolve 00:00:56.530 --> 00:01:01.270 again or disappear entirely. This is a podcast 00:01:01.270 --> 00:01:04.069 by D2M and we'll be talking with Phil Staunton, 00:01:04.209 --> 00:01:08.650 our product design expert, later. In this episode, 00:01:08.709 --> 00:01:10.629 we're going to be looking at our first mundane 00:01:10.629 --> 00:01:13.569 product. Well, actually, it's quite a fabulous 00:01:13.569 --> 00:01:15.709 innovation that you definitely have in your home. 00:01:16.010 --> 00:01:28.090 The humble tin opener. Before we can explore 00:01:28.090 --> 00:01:31.950 why the tin opener is such a clever little device, 00:01:32.230 --> 00:01:35.349 we're going to go back in time. You may know 00:01:35.349 --> 00:01:37.689 the tin opener was created 50 years after the 00:01:37.689 --> 00:01:39.969 invention of the tin can and the rotary opener, 00:01:40.069 --> 00:01:42.609 that's the one in your drawer, 100 years after. 00:01:43.349 --> 00:01:45.530 You will probably wonder why it took so long 00:01:45.530 --> 00:01:47.829 for someone to work out how on earth to open 00:01:47.829 --> 00:01:50.189 the container people had been preserving food 00:01:50.189 --> 00:01:53.670 in for the last 100 years. Let's step back in 00:01:53.670 --> 00:02:06.829 time. 230 years. It's in 1795, the heyday of 00:02:06.829 --> 00:02:09.550 the Napoleonic era, and France is fast becoming 00:02:09.550 --> 00:02:12.250 the biggest empire in the world. But it's hit 00:02:12.250 --> 00:02:20.129 a snag. Without a good food supply, the French 00:02:20.129 --> 00:02:23.840 Navy's operations are at risk. It must find regular 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.080 friendly ports in order to fill its ships with 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:29.199 salted meats and fresh food. What Napoleon and 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.300 his armies really needed was a way of preserving 00:02:31.300 --> 00:02:33.400 food long enough for it to get around the world. 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.800 So like many great innovations, this one started 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.180 with a political push from the government for 00:02:39.180 --> 00:02:43.520 12 ,000 francs. Napoleon asked the inventors 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:45.580 of the time to find a way to preserve food that 00:02:45.580 --> 00:02:49.870 wasn't salted meat in wooden barrels. Step in 00:02:49.870 --> 00:02:52.969 Nicolas Appert, whose process to preserve pasturized 00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:57.050 food in glass jars was fantastic. The beef three 00:02:57.050 --> 00:02:59.530 -fourths done, I put into jars which I filled 00:02:59.530 --> 00:03:02.689 up with broth. Having corked and wrapped them, 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:06.169 I placed them upright in a cauldron. The next 00:03:06.169 --> 00:03:09.569 day, I besmeared the corks with resin in order 00:03:09.569 --> 00:03:12.069 to forward the bottles to different seaports. 00:03:12.449 --> 00:03:15.469 At the end of a year and a year and a half, the 00:03:15.469 --> 00:03:18.490 broth and boiled meat were found as good as if 00:03:18.490 --> 00:03:20.990 made the day they were eaten. His preservation 00:03:20.990 --> 00:03:23.729 technique was brilliant. It's the first time 00:03:23.729 --> 00:03:25.469 that food could be cooked and stored for longer 00:03:25.469 --> 00:03:28.610 periods. It also took him about 20 years to work 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:38.189 out. Next, Philippe de Girard in France noted 00:03:38.189 --> 00:03:40.449 the fragile glass would break and decided to 00:03:40.449 --> 00:03:43.669 do the same process, using metal cans. Now, these 00:03:43.669 --> 00:03:45.949 tin cans aren't the ones in your cupboard. These 00:03:45.949 --> 00:03:48.960 are thick rolled steel. Very similar to the processing 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.280 technologies available to the Navy. Think like 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.159 little cannons. And this is common in innovation. 00:03:55.659 --> 00:03:58.080 Technology being adapted from one industry to 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.680 another. Thick steel cans lined with protective 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.060 and expensive tin to stop reaction with food. 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:07.379 Our cans are still coated today. Oh, and sealed 00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:10.759 with lead, which is poisonous. He tried to patent 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.500 it. And then, like great innovations, it was 00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:16.560 then stolen by the British and taken up by Brian 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.040 Donkin, who's like the superhero canning, who 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:20.980 commercialised it with the first canning lines 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:23.899 in London. We see this pattern often when invention 00:04:23.899 --> 00:04:26.420 happens in one part of the world and is commercialised 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:29.339 by another. The British Navy, having successfully 00:04:29.339 --> 00:04:31.639 bought or stolen this great innovation from the 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:34.360 French, started supplying their armies with canned 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:38.420 foods in 1831. That's only 36 years after Napoleon's 00:04:38.420 --> 00:04:41.100 competition. You'd imagine at this point someone 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:43.480 said, let's invent something to open this delicious 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.759 food. But let's just think about the situation. 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.699 These newfangled cans are replacing barrels of 00:04:48.699 --> 00:04:51.660 salted meats on ships. And to open barrels, you'd 00:04:51.660 --> 00:04:53.740 use crowbars and hammers and chisels and the 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:56.360 like. And military ships have tools aplenty. 00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:59.959 All you need to do is use the same sort of tools 00:04:59.959 --> 00:05:06.879 you already have lying around the ship. And the 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.620 cans are so much better, the food's so much tastier 00:05:09.620 --> 00:05:11.860 for the troops, that you're willing to compromise 00:05:11.860 --> 00:05:15.420 with the bother of opening. Many times, existing 00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:17.819 products are good enough that consumers don't 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:20.100 ask for a better solution. And in this case, 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.379 the food in the tin can is so much better than 00:05:22.379 --> 00:05:24.660 the barrels of salt that the inconvenience is 00:05:24.660 --> 00:05:28.500 just too small. This explains why it took so 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:33.600 long for the opener to be invented. And our societies 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.029 were very different. The well -off would have 00:05:36.029 --> 00:05:38.250 had servants and would have had the tools available 00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:40.970 in big houses and therefore there was no need 00:05:40.970 --> 00:05:44.509 for a specific opener. And servants are not educated 00:05:44.509 --> 00:05:48.029 to invent a better process. A working class person, 00:05:48.089 --> 00:05:50.230 if you're able to afford a can, you're very likely 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:51.930 to be in the mechanical trades and therefore 00:05:51.930 --> 00:05:53.649 you'd have your own tools as part of your job. 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:56.649 Until there was an emerging middle class who 00:05:56.649 --> 00:05:58.870 didn't have servants, were in clerical work and 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:01.329 didn't have the tools, there was no need for 00:06:01.329 --> 00:06:04.750 dedicated openers. One of the brilliant advantages 00:06:04.750 --> 00:06:06.810 of the can is that it allows you to preserve 00:06:06.810 --> 00:06:09.509 food for longer. This is, you know, 100 years 00:06:09.509 --> 00:06:25.290 before full refrigeration. In the Great Exhibition 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:29.189 at Crystal Palace in 1851, 40 years after the 00:06:29.189 --> 00:06:32.240 first cans, We start seeing tins being proposed 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.759 for the middle classes, as well as luxury foodstuffs 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:39.879 being available to people all year round. Sardines 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.720 and truffles, artichokes and turtle soup, tin 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:48.779 desserts, strawberries, peaches or peas. The 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:51.680 exhibition is attended by royalty and about a 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:53.879 third of the population in Britain. It's like 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:57.170 the CES of the Victorian era. It's the biggest 00:06:57.170 --> 00:06:59.629 mass marketing event with demonstrations of the 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:01.990 latest technology including lifts and photographs 00:07:01.990 --> 00:07:05.829 and food from all over the world brought to you 00:07:05.829 --> 00:07:09.290 by the tin can. And there was an evolution of 00:07:09.290 --> 00:07:11.790 the tin can forming process, from heavy metal 00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:14.389 welding to forming and seaming, driven not by 00:07:14.389 --> 00:07:16.410 the need to get in, but the need to get the cost 00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:19.029 down and speed of production up, the cans themselves 00:07:19.029 --> 00:07:22.029 becoming thinner and standardised. With this 00:07:22.029 --> 00:07:24.550 great exhibition marketing push to both the wealthy 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:26.810 and the middle classes, and the technology of 00:07:26.810 --> 00:07:31.050 the thinner cans, now an opener was wanted and 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:43.110 feasible. It was time for the tin opener. The 00:07:43.110 --> 00:07:45.910 earliest can opener, a hook knife in 1840 in 00:07:45.910 --> 00:07:48.870 Britain and then 1858 from America, are a bit 00:07:48.870 --> 00:07:51.149 naff, cumbersome and complex and not suitable 00:07:51.149 --> 00:07:54.089 for domestic use. It was Robert and Frederick 00:07:54.089 --> 00:07:57.310 Yates, a UK instrument manufacturer, who developed 00:07:57.310 --> 00:08:00.790 an improved can opener in the 1850s, just after 00:08:00.790 --> 00:08:04.250 the Great Exhibition. Yates' is a G -shaped implement. 00:08:04.569 --> 00:08:06.449 You might have one on your Swiss Army knife or 00:08:06.449 --> 00:08:08.649 on the side of an opener today. You push the 00:08:08.649 --> 00:08:12.170 pointy end through the can's surface. which takes 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:15.089 a lot of force, and then using the curved sharp 00:08:15.089 --> 00:08:17.769 edge to ratchet through the lid, working along 00:08:17.769 --> 00:08:20.829 the thin edge. If you've ever used one, they're 00:08:20.829 --> 00:08:22.949 great for getting into the tin, but it's hard 00:08:22.949 --> 00:08:26.290 work to open. But so much better than the hammer 00:08:26.290 --> 00:08:28.490 and chisels that preceded them, and suitable 00:08:28.490 --> 00:08:30.790 for domestic, servant -free middle classes that 00:08:30.790 --> 00:08:41.700 the canning industry were targeting. In fact, 00:08:41.740 --> 00:08:43.600 when we hit the Second World War, we were still 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.200 mainly using these ratchets. A folding lever 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.460 version, the P -38, was distributed to the US 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:53.159 Army troops for their canned rations. After 138 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.279 years, we were still using the very similar technologies 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.580 to open cans. There are limitations. You cut 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:02.519 yourself on the sharp raised edges and contamination 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:04.980 of the food because of the coatings and swarf 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:08.000 from the tin can itself. The opener was slow. 00:09:08.409 --> 00:09:10.690 Basically a sharp knife being hammered in as 00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:21.149 late as 1950. There's room for improvement. We 00:09:21.149 --> 00:09:23.529 don't know what the inventive process was. Perhaps 00:09:23.529 --> 00:09:25.909 a creative workshop or a series of many prototypes. 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:30.149 But in 1925, the US Starwheel Company developed 00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:33.149 the first modern rotating gripper can opener. 00:09:34.149 --> 00:09:37.070 Followed a year later by Charles Arthur Bunker. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.100 which is the design you have in the drawer today. 00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:43.139 Both use the familiar two -handed levers that 00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:45.639 help grip the can like a pair of pliers and forces 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.519 the first puncture of the can. The star will 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.179 drag the cam along the tin. It's simpler and 00:09:51.179 --> 00:09:53.039 cheaper, but it was superseded by the bunker. 00:09:53.620 --> 00:09:56.559 This clamps onto the side of the tin, which is 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.580 then guided around the crimped edge of the can, 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.440 the bit that sticks up, focusing the force on 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.529 the lid. A pizza cutter like Will, of hardened 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:07.309 steel, slices the thinnest part of the lid using 00:10:07.309 --> 00:10:10.470 shear force. What's fascinating is the shearing 00:10:10.470 --> 00:10:12.950 effect means there's less force applied by you, 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:15.570 like a pair of scissors slicing through wrapping 00:10:15.570 --> 00:10:18.970 paper. The smooth edge of the can helps guide 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:22.210 the opener. Holding the rotary wing acts as a 00:10:22.210 --> 00:10:24.289 lever and it magnifies the force being applied 00:10:24.289 --> 00:10:27.470 to the metal. A set of knurled cogs transfers 00:10:27.470 --> 00:10:30.090 that movement of the wings, drives the cannon 00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:32.950 around and rotates the cutting wheel with consistent 00:10:32.950 --> 00:10:37.370 force. It's quicker and safer and leaves no sharp 00:10:37.370 --> 00:10:40.110 serrations, much more effective than the ratcheting 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:43.909 of the old Yates' G -shaped openers. A good sharp 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:46.309 rotary opener will leave very little shards and 00:10:46.309 --> 00:10:49.909 a smooth cut. Overall... A very clever invention. 00:10:50.789 --> 00:10:53.610 The similarities with the Starwheel and the Bunker 00:10:53.610 --> 00:10:56.409 are perhaps not surprising. Rotary cutting was 00:10:56.409 --> 00:10:59.029 a known art in fabric cutting and refining it 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.309 to work on the can was complex but within reach. 00:11:01.730 --> 00:11:04.210 But they are very similar in design and operation 00:11:04.210 --> 00:11:07.429 and it's not surprising that Starwheel took Bunker 00:11:07.429 --> 00:11:10.190 to court for patent infringement like our big 00:11:10.190 --> 00:11:14.980 tech companies do today. Starwheel lost. On a 00:11:14.980 --> 00:11:17.500 technicality, the position of the knurled roller. 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:19.879 It's flat on the top of the can for Starwell, 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.360 but not for Bunker. When the defendant's device 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:25.100 is placed at right angles to the top for the 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:26.980 purpose of trying to cut the wall of the can, 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.700 thereby preventing the knurled roller from performing 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:32.240 the function that it does in the case of plaintiff's 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.860 patent, the knurled roller lies flat on the top 00:11:34.860 --> 00:11:37.620 of the can. That cannot be done with the defendant's 00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:43.250 device. That's the District Court of Missouri 00:11:43.250 --> 00:11:47.690 in 1930. Interestingly, in the case, Bunker describes 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:50.269 they cut the side wall, not the top of the can, 00:11:50.429 --> 00:11:53.450 but consumers just found the easiest way to use 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:56.450 the opener, like the existing Yates' G -shaped, 00:11:56.690 --> 00:12:00.269 through the lid, even though the designers intended 00:12:00.269 --> 00:12:03.269 it to cut the side wall. Much later from the 00:12:03.269 --> 00:12:05.970 60s, we start to see the electric tin openers, 00:12:05.990 --> 00:12:09.450 and Paul Posniak and Keith Longstaff, a sidewall 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:12.389 seam opener. That's those that are specific to 00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:15.409 open the sidewall rather than the lid. But fundamentally, 00:12:15.769 --> 00:12:18.169 the rotary opener design hasn't changed much 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:21.350 in the last 60 odd years. Now it's not perfect, 00:12:21.490 --> 00:12:23.269 it still leaves sharp edges, although nowhere 00:12:23.269 --> 00:12:25.769 near as dangerous as Yates's, with its serrated 00:12:25.769 --> 00:12:28.870 edge. And you need good dexterity. Now I know 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:31.120 what you're thinking. Ben, what about key tin 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.960 openers? Think Tom and Jerry's sardines. A key 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.559 that you wind round the middle of a can of bully 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.480 brief or spam that allows rectangular containers. 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:43.240 They had been around for about 30 years after 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.059 the Yateses, but they were costly and unreliable. 00:12:47.740 --> 00:12:51.200 Meanwhile, in the drinks can category, the ring 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:53.820 pull, which was developed in the 60s and eventually 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:56.899 replaced with the aluminium pushing, was transferred 00:12:56.899 --> 00:13:02.179 to the tin can. Suddenly, you no longer need 00:13:02.179 --> 00:13:04.399 an opener. You can just lift that ring pull end 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:10.639 and access the beans. Is this game over for the 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.740 opener? Well, we have about 40 cans in our larder. 00:13:14.860 --> 00:13:17.940 All have the ring pull, except for four of them. 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.720 And these are on the economy brands. For economy 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.139 brands, the ring pull is just not an option. 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.159 It's too expensive. This suggests that the opener 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:30.679 has a big role to play in allowing people to 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:34.620 access affordable preserved food. Then there 00:13:34.620 --> 00:13:37.740 is plastic packs. They can be resealed, are lighter 00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:40.379 and easier to get into, and have a better marketing 00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:43.620 image. But we all know how bad multi -laminate 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:46.179 plastics are for the environment. And we also 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:48.700 have refrigeration and more glass packs, so less 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:52.360 need of the can and its opener. But these methods 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.799 of food preservation use a lot of energy and 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.600 create a lot of waste. So I wonder, with a very 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.639 easy to recycle can, which does not use energy 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.080 to store or contribute to plastic waste, see 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.279 a resurgence as energy gets more expensive and 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:12.019 being sustainable becomes more important. Will 00:14:12.019 --> 00:14:14.299 we therefore see a new generation of canned goods, 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:16.960 canned marketing like the Great Exhibition and 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.759 a resurgence of the tin opener? Although the 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:22.659 fundamental principles of the wheels and cogs 00:14:22.659 --> 00:14:25.299 and levers haven't changed much, the likes of 00:14:25.299 --> 00:14:27.539 Oxo Good Grips and Joseph & Joseph have made 00:14:27.539 --> 00:14:29.700 beautiful designs that are more comfortable to 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:32.440 hold and that are more ergonomic to use, particularly 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.559 with those with arthritis. So I wonder, have 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.299 we reached peak tin opener? The can preserves 00:14:39.299 --> 00:14:42.779 food wonderfully. It's easy to recycle, really 00:14:42.779 --> 00:14:45.519 versatile and has a standardised format without 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:49.470 needing power. It's incredibly convenient. A 00:14:49.470 --> 00:14:51.830 lot of innovation can still be done to get rid 00:14:51.830 --> 00:14:54.909 of the sharp edges, help people who have mobility 00:14:54.909 --> 00:14:58.049 limitations and provide a really cost -effective 00:14:58.049 --> 00:15:02.009 solution for economy brands. The experience of 00:15:02.009 --> 00:15:04.409 opening tins of beans still leaves a lot to be 00:15:04.409 --> 00:15:07.090 desired. They get caught on the sharp edges, 00:15:07.309 --> 00:15:09.830 cleaning the can, the lid scratches my sink. 00:15:10.169 --> 00:15:12.450 And typically, when there's a category that's 00:15:12.450 --> 00:15:14.950 underdeveloped, think tonic water before fever 00:15:14.950 --> 00:15:18.840 tree, it's ripe for disruption. I mean... Where 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.820 are the laser cutter tin openers? We cut steel 00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:25.340 in factories using lasers. A mini one could instantly 00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:27.799 slice through the lid. No problem when you have 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.179 arthritis. So I think more innovation to come. 00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:41.039 On a journey that spans 200 years, we've shown 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.399 how the tin can started as a competition in order 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.600 to feed the Navy. We've seen why it took 100 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.240 years of invention, marketing, social change 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.840 and supply chain improvement for us to see the 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.840 rotary openers we're familiar with. Why innovation 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:00.000 has continued to apply on both the tin, on preserving 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.940 food and on the can opener itself. And the journey 00:16:03.940 --> 00:16:06.960 is not over yet. The can has a long way to go. 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.700 And with the sustainable challenges we face, 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.480 there will be more innovations on the humble 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:19.330 tin opener to come. Let's talk more about the 00:16:19.330 --> 00:16:22.309 tin opener. Today we're joined by Phil Staunton 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:25.889 from D2M. Hi Ben. And why are you an expert on 00:16:25.889 --> 00:16:28.370 tin openers? I'm not sure I'm an expert on tin 00:16:28.370 --> 00:16:31.669 openers. I'm a product designer by background 00:16:31.669 --> 00:16:34.830 and for the last 15 years I've run a small product 00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:37.490 design company and we've worked on all sorts 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:40.720 of consumer products, some of which... I can't 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.220 say so much you can see behind me because it's 00:16:42.220 --> 00:16:47.000 a podcast. You have to imagine, listeners, a 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.600 smorgasbord of products from backpacks to coffee, 00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:54.860 percolators, and some strange medical -looking 00:16:54.860 --> 00:16:57.480 appliances as well in the corner, I think. So, 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.279 Phil, this is the hardest question of the podcast. 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.360 When you use a tin opener, are you on the top 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:08.299 of the can or on the side? Are you a bunker or 00:17:08.299 --> 00:17:11.579 a star wheel man? I am an on the top kind of 00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:14.720 guy. But the problem actually in my house is 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:17.039 that our tin opener is designed for left -handed 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.539 people because my wife and my eldest son are 00:17:19.539 --> 00:17:22.720 left -handed. And I find that a left -handed 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.839 can opener does not work if you are right -handed. 00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:31.019 So four weeks of research in tin openers, I never 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:33.160 knew there was a left and right tin opener. So 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:35.279 that's clearly the first problem that any of 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.660 our designers need to overcome. overcome overcome 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:42.380 is an ambidextrous you know yeah because my wife 00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:44.359 really struggles with the normal ones and then 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:45.900 actually i really struggle with the left -handed 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:48.319 one which basically now means that my tin opener 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.019 is my wife because i'm like i cannot use this 00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:56.759 thing you do it you've listened to our fascinating 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.779 story the tin opener the fact that it took over 00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:01.960 50 years for that first opener to appear as a 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.380 designer is that surprising It is surprising, 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.759 and that's partly because everything is so fast 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:10.859 now and design has sped up massively in the last 00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:14.180 10 years. So with 3D printing technology and 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:17.440 3D scanning and obviously all the smorgasbord 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.279 of research opportunities via the internet and 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:21.859 surveys and all this kind of stuff, actually 00:18:21.859 --> 00:18:25.200 you can move really fast in design now. So it 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.740 was a bit surprising how long it took. And it 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:29.440 was really fascinating to hear what you were 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.299 saying about why that was. One of the things 00:18:32.299 --> 00:18:34.619 that jumped out, really, was that it came out 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.859 of a design competition, effectively. Now, I 00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:39.599 thought design competitions were a relatively 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.220 new thing. You know, you think kind of like Earth 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:44.720 Prize or whatever with William and Kate. X -Rise. 00:18:44.779 --> 00:18:47.599 Yeah. But it's not. It's really old. And it's 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:49.799 been around ages by the sound of things. So do 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.839 you think Matin has a future? Like, we've got 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:54.819 the plastic packaging. We've got refrigeration. 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.680 We no longer have to ship stuff on ships to keep 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.099 our navy. Well, maybe we do. Is the tin can dead 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:04.759 or is there a bright? Aluminium can in the future. 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:06.920 I don't think it's dead. There's a few reasons 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.200 for that. One is that actually the population 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.539 of the world is still expanding. And obviously, 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:14.000 in terms of developing countries, people are 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.180 getting wealthier bit by bit. And therefore, 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.180 there'll be more of a demand from those countries 00:19:18.180 --> 00:19:21.099 for canned goods and things as well. And then 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:23.559 also, this might have a lesser effect, but there's 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:25.420 a small group of people that like to prepare 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:30.160 for when nuclear war breaks out. And they definitely 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:31.660 need stuff. I swear the word bunker came out. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:33.700 They definitely need stuff. need a lot of stuff 00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:37.460 in tins why is it not easy to open the tin opening 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:40.140 it yeah and it's not easy to open the tin because 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:42.660 because they actually vary quite a lot so in 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:44.640 terms of the thickness and the thickness of the 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.960 rim at the top and all that kind of stuff and 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:48.960 if you want to do it in a safe way that doesn't 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.839 end up with a sharp edge and doesn't end up with 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.000 shards or bits of the the kind of paper wrapper 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.559 kind of disappearing into the food it's actually 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.000 quite a challenge and then technically it's a 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.819 real challenge because It's actually got to be 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:04.720 really rigid. And that's why in some ways the 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.480 kind of original metal can openers from like 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.940 30, 40 years ago still work really well now is 00:20:09.940 --> 00:20:12.920 because they were made in a much more expensive 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.200 way with much more kind of durable and robust 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.400 materials. I think a lot of the problems with 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.400 current can openers is they're made as cheap 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.279 as possible, inevitably in the Far East for the 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:27.109 mass market. But unless they're very rigid, they 00:20:27.109 --> 00:20:30.049 don't really work. And that's very hard from 00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:31.509 a designer's perspective because we're trying 00:20:31.509 --> 00:20:34.359 to make something that's highly rigid. and cheap. 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:36.460 And those two things just don't go hand in hand. 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:38.720 If we just paid more for our tin opener, would 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.019 we get a better one then? We'd have better materials 00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:45.960 or is it? I think that's true. Absolutely. I'm 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.460 very keen to talk to our next guest, Rob, and 00:20:48.460 --> 00:20:50.160 ask him the same question because he's done a 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.859 lot more in terms of the design of the tin opener 00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:56.400 than I have. But yeah, if you pay more, you would 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.640 certainly get something. Let's put it differently. 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.180 I think if consumers were prepared to pay more 00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:04.430 for a premium product, then I think we definitely 00:21:04.430 --> 00:21:07.730 end up with better tin openers that were more 00:21:07.730 --> 00:21:10.029 ergonomic, easier to use, less pressure on the 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:13.509 hands, safer result by the time the tin was opened. 00:21:14.009 --> 00:21:16.609 But if there was a tin opener on the shelves 00:21:16.609 --> 00:21:20.329 for £250, is anyone going to buy it? Probably 00:21:20.329 --> 00:21:22.670 not. But I guess this is the big question. So 00:21:22.670 --> 00:21:24.430 if we look at other categories, and the vacuum 00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:26.410 cleaner category is the classic market for this, 00:21:26.549 --> 00:21:29.690 where no one would believe you'd spend £250, 00:21:29.869 --> 00:21:33.890 £500 on a... vacuum cleaner and obviously several 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:36.390 brands have now kind of made lots of great products 00:21:36.390 --> 00:21:40.289 for that category why is it that no one's done 00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:42.529 the same thing on the tin opener yeah it's an 00:21:42.529 --> 00:21:44.230 interesting question and my first answer to it 00:21:44.230 --> 00:21:46.289 without your example would have been because 00:21:46.289 --> 00:21:48.390 it's not on show and because no one else sees 00:21:48.390 --> 00:21:51.730 it So in the pushchair market, for example, pushchairs 00:21:51.730 --> 00:21:53.970 used to be, you know, 100, 200 quid. And then 00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:55.890 Bugaboo came along and everyone was paying 500. 00:21:56.089 --> 00:21:58.150 And now you can pay, you know, two grand. And 00:21:58.150 --> 00:21:59.890 actually I just saw on just the other day for 00:21:59.890 --> 00:22:02.650 4 ,000 pounds, a tie up between a pushchair brand 00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:05.029 and Lamborghini. They'd done this kind of co 00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:08.029 -branded pushchair. It was crazy. But the thing 00:22:08.029 --> 00:22:10.190 is about that product, you know, people are seen 00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:13.190 pushing it and want to be seen pushing the right 00:22:13.190 --> 00:22:15.369 one and want people to know how much money they've 00:22:15.369 --> 00:22:18.440 spent. And I think the thing about the... your 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.240 example with a vacuum cleaner is people don't 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.359 see that it's in a cupboard so you know why would 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.259 you spend kind of more on it there's another 00:22:25.259 --> 00:22:27.640 big question in this question which is you know 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.700 are those expensive vacuum cleaners really such 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:35.240 a step up um that it's worth that money or did 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.259 people want to be talking in the coffee shop 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:38.759 with their mates about the fact they just bought 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:40.920 this amazing new vacuum cleaner and it does this 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:42.279 that and the other and you wouldn't believe it 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.539 and it it cost this amount but you know we could 00:22:44.539 --> 00:22:46.829 afford it And I don't know the answer to that 00:22:46.829 --> 00:22:49.630 as a product designer, to be honest. But I probably 00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:52.250 ought to. I think there's a lovely tension here 00:22:52.250 --> 00:22:55.430 in that cans are considered to be very cheap. 00:22:55.450 --> 00:22:58.329 And you think the classic Andy Warhol picture 00:22:58.329 --> 00:23:00.569 of all the Campbell's soup. And that was inspired 00:23:00.569 --> 00:23:02.630 by the fact that he grew up very poor and they 00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:05.829 were very cheap. And because they're considered... 00:23:06.329 --> 00:23:09.210 a low -cost, convenient food, the tin opener 00:23:09.210 --> 00:23:11.630 is then associated with that. And in fact, we 00:23:11.630 --> 00:23:13.509 heard, you know, at the Great Exhibition, you 00:23:13.509 --> 00:23:15.410 could buy turtle soup in this, you know, really 00:23:15.410 --> 00:23:18.630 premium foods in it. So I wonder if that's where 00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:20.410 the innovation needs to happen first, that the 00:23:20.410 --> 00:23:23.529 can needs to be re -elevated before the can opener 00:23:23.529 --> 00:23:27.190 can become the kitchen aid of can openers. Yeah, 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:30.029 you may well be right. And my hope would be that 00:23:30.029 --> 00:23:33.029 as we move away from plastics and as we get more 00:23:33.029 --> 00:23:35.730 concerned about microplastics in all of our brains, 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:38.339 now and all that kind of stuff that maybe we 00:23:38.339 --> 00:23:40.400 will move to something that is inherently more 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.420 recyclable um and and i'd love to see some food 00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:46.640 brands going you know we're only putting our 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.319 stuff in tins um you know rather than than plastic 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:52.460 because i think tin is and metal is still associated 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.559 with a higher value than plastic and so hopefully 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:58.559 maybe there'll be a premiumization there and 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:00.599 then maybe the can opener can come off the back 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.400 of that in terms of its kind of premium nature 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:06.130 as well so it's almost like the craft beer, you 00:24:06.130 --> 00:24:09.809 know, how that's gone from bottles into beautifully 00:24:09.809 --> 00:24:12.569 crafted cans with wonderful artwork. And that's 00:24:12.569 --> 00:24:15.150 really lifted that category. Whether they're 00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:17.269 ring pulls or not might be the question, whether 00:24:17.269 --> 00:24:18.950 you need the tin opener. Yeah, that was actually 00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:20.970 one of the questions I had for you, Ben. Oh, 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:22.730 go on, go for that, go for that. Would you rather 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:25.450 have been the patent holder on the can opener 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:28.509 or the patent holder of the ring pull? Oh, the 00:24:28.509 --> 00:24:31.450 ring pull. Yeah, the ring pull. And the ring 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:34.940 pull's fascinating because, You've got to get 00:24:34.940 --> 00:24:37.099 it cheap. It's mass manufactured. You can license 00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:39.720 it to everybody and you get it out much easier. 00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:42.740 And I think massive canning lines, because they're 00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:45.559 producing big volume, it's much easier to put 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:47.880 that innovation on that line than it is to get 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.660 a single beautiful tin opener that you might 00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:53.039 buy once when you do your kitchen or once when 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.779 you move out of home through all of the retailer 00:24:56.779 --> 00:25:00.559 channels. So I think although the new tin opener, 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:03.690 the future tin opener will be amazing. financially, 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:05.990 the ring pool is definitely the better innovation 00:25:05.990 --> 00:25:08.670 and the bigger impact you can have. Yeah, I think 00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:11.910 I completely agree. But what's interesting is 00:25:11.910 --> 00:25:15.849 in my work with D2M, as the founder of that business, 00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:19.549 we've worked with 1600 odd clients over the last 00:25:19.549 --> 00:25:22.329 kind of 15 years. And none of them have come 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.069 with something really unglamorous and unsexy 00:25:25.069 --> 00:25:28.849 like a ring pool. They all want the amazing innovation 00:25:28.849 --> 00:25:30.789 that it's got all these bells and whistles on 00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:33.250 it and all this kind of stuff. Whereas actually, 00:25:33.369 --> 00:25:35.730 a lot of the time, the money is in the mundane, 00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:37.789 isn't it? I think that's why we're doing this 00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:40.950 podcast as well, because, you know, we're creative 00:25:40.950 --> 00:25:43.450 people. We're very good at coming up with the 00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:45.869 brilliant new ideas and sexy, you know, products. 00:25:47.230 --> 00:25:49.710 The stuff that has a real impact on the world 00:25:49.710 --> 00:25:52.250 is the zipper, you know, YKK, that type of thing. 00:25:52.710 --> 00:25:56.990 And those ideas are really hot. That's where 00:25:56.990 --> 00:25:58.369 they're all challenging. They're really hard 00:25:58.369 --> 00:26:00.029 engineering -wise, really hard business -wise, 00:26:00.049 --> 00:26:02.710 and really hard design -wise. But they have such 00:26:02.710 --> 00:26:06.450 a massive impact and wouldn't it be great to 00:26:06.450 --> 00:26:08.509 do one of those and come up with the spoon or 00:26:08.509 --> 00:26:10.410 the fork or something that everyone uses? Yeah, 00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:13.069 no, clearly it would be amazing. And I think 00:26:13.069 --> 00:26:14.569 that's the other thing is that people don't necessarily 00:26:14.569 --> 00:26:16.569 realise that something like the ring pull or 00:26:16.569 --> 00:26:19.930 the zipper has probably got 10 times as much 00:26:19.930 --> 00:26:23.410 cost to develop as something that's much more 00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:26.349 on the front of it technically complicated because 00:26:26.349 --> 00:26:28.789 you've got to get the commercials of it down 00:26:28.789 --> 00:26:32.839 pat. because it's got to be so cheap and so reliable 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.519 every single time. But that costs a huge amount 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:38.700 of money because you're going through constant 00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:41.759 iterations to nail that design down. And guys, 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.779 that's why we love design. That's why we love 00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:47.180 design. Phil, that was brilliant. Thank you. 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.160 Now we're going to switch to look at the future 00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:52.420 of tin openers and introduce our guest, Robert 00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:56.339 Van Varick. Hi, Rob. Welcome to the show. Where 00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:59.539 are you, first of all? I am calling in from the 00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:02.740 east coast of the United States. I'm in Bucks 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:06.259 County, Pennsylvania, which is just north of 00:27:06.259 --> 00:27:10.019 Philadelphia. Is it a big area of tin can consumption? 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:12.900 That's the most important question. I mean, isn't 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:17.299 all of America? I think, you know, I think we 00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:20.339 love our canned food. Maybe less so these days, 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:23.269 but yeah. So, Rob. First, can you introduce yourself 00:27:23.269 --> 00:27:26.970 to everybody? Absolutely. So I am the Chief Design 00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:30.410 Officer at Michael Graves Design. Michael Graves 00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:35.289 Design is a storied design house and consumer 00:27:35.289 --> 00:27:39.349 brand as well that has really been transformative 00:27:39.349 --> 00:27:43.150 in the world of design over the last many decades, 00:27:43.250 --> 00:27:45.730 four decades at least. We've created some of 00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:48.579 the most... iconic products that people use in 00:27:48.579 --> 00:27:53.160 their everyday lives and we really love uncovering 00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.279 those sort of opportunities in the sort of humble 00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.779 everyday objects that tend to go overlooked which 00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:02.319 is why i believe you reached out to me for our 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:05.559 conversation today so i'm really excited to be 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:07.440 here thank you for having me you've designed 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.819 lots of different products for you what's the 00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:12.680 one that you felt has been the biggest impact 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:14.619 the one that you're most proud of particularly 00:28:15.549 --> 00:28:18.650 If it was overlooked? Oh, wow. Well, there's 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:21.509 a lot to unpack in that question. I've worked 00:28:21.509 --> 00:28:24.430 on hundreds and hundreds of products over the 00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:26.809 time that we've been there. And some of the top 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:29.630 hits I would say would be our transport chair 00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:32.430 with Stryker Medical that's designed specifically 00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:35.269 for the hospital environment. It's not every 00:28:35.269 --> 00:28:39.509 day that you get to sort of reinvent such a sort 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:42.569 of archetypal product as the wheelchair. but 00:28:42.569 --> 00:28:45.630 also just the time spent working on housewares 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:49.269 for companies like Target. And we just got to 00:28:49.269 --> 00:28:51.710 design so many things. So, you know, my first 00:28:51.710 --> 00:28:54.869 products that I patented were done for Target 00:28:54.869 --> 00:28:58.250 and were in and out of the store in a blink. 00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:02.670 So there was a lot of learning about how innovation 00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:06.049 performs at the shelf. So, you know, if somebody's 00:29:06.049 --> 00:29:07.609 looking at something new and they've never seen 00:29:07.609 --> 00:29:09.660 it before. They're just going to move right on. 00:29:09.740 --> 00:29:13.240 It was a really good education in terms of understanding 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.880 the constraints of where something's sold, who 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:20.019 the customer is, what the price point is, which 00:29:20.019 --> 00:29:24.079 we can dive into. But more and more, what we're 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:26.900 really proud of is this focus on us being the 00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:29.900 most accessible design brand. And we are looking 00:29:29.900 --> 00:29:33.700 at everything through that filter of physical 00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:37.839 accessibility, financial accessibility. And even, 00:29:37.900 --> 00:29:40.519 you know, what Michael started his career on 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.079 and made his name in was humanism. But what we 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.400 like to sort of refer to it as like cognitive 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.339 accessibility. It was just that you looked at 00:29:48.339 --> 00:29:50.160 something, you understand what it was. When you 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.599 talk about the cognitive, I always think about 00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:55.420 the handle on the door that says push. And you 00:29:55.420 --> 00:29:57.160 always pull it. You always pull it. It doesn't 00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:59.700 matter if it says push. It's instinctive design. 00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:02.480 This episode's about the tin opener, the can 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.039 opener. Is it tin or can in the US? We do call 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:10.039 it a can opener, but I can call it a tin opener. 00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:15.039 I love that. But if I slip up and call it a can 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:17.920 opener, you know why. So the most important question 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:24.240 for me is, are you an on top or on the side tin 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:28.119 opener? So, you know, such a fascinating question. 00:30:31.289 --> 00:30:35.329 I even tracked down. It's not mine. It's my business 00:30:35.329 --> 00:30:37.410 partner, Donald Strum, who's our president, who 00:30:37.410 --> 00:30:40.710 has worked at our company for over 40 years now. 00:30:40.950 --> 00:30:44.250 But this was the original Target can opener, 00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:49.250 which is not much different from OXO's can opener, 00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:51.529 which this has been in my drawer for probably 00:30:51.529 --> 00:30:56.450 25 years now. So this is on the side. And a lot 00:30:56.450 --> 00:30:59.730 of it's because I don't open a lot of cans. It 00:30:59.730 --> 00:31:02.910 really has more recently come to our attention, 00:31:03.029 --> 00:31:05.069 especially through that like accessibility lens 00:31:05.069 --> 00:31:10.369 of the on top one and how just like having one 00:31:10.369 --> 00:31:13.470 handle and not having to like have that grasping 00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:17.250 motion that this is so much easier to just sort 00:31:17.250 --> 00:31:19.289 of put it on the can and then just start to like 00:31:19.289 --> 00:31:22.670 turn and magically it cuts through the side of 00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:25.930 the can. I don't know. I think my now that I 00:31:25.930 --> 00:31:29.019 have this this new one, I'm going to be. trying 00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:31.400 that out and using that more often. It's fascinating. 00:31:31.480 --> 00:31:33.599 You talked about accessibility almost straight 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:35.160 away with that. And it fits really well with 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.059 the Michael Graves premise, doesn't it? One hand 00:31:38.059 --> 00:31:41.779 being easy to turn. These are simple things. 00:31:41.900 --> 00:31:44.380 Given the kind of thousands of products that 00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:46.200 you've worked on, and I don't know how many tin 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.720 openers specifically you've designed, but have 00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.500 we reached kind of the pinnacle of design of 00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:56.299 the tin opener? I can confidently say no, we 00:31:56.299 --> 00:32:00.880 haven't. And I say that because we're working 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.299 on a new one. It probably won't like kind of 00:32:03.299 --> 00:32:06.240 hit where you guys are thinking of like, you 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.400 know, where things could go technological wise. 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.880 But I think there still is space, especially 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.099 from an accessibility standpoint. I grew up with 00:32:15.099 --> 00:32:17.440 an electric can opener in my kitchen. It was 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:20.599 a installation there. So whenever you had to 00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:23.660 open a can, it was so simple. But now it's like, 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:25.480 who's going to use up counter space for that 00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:28.470 object? Which is too bad because we designed 00:32:28.470 --> 00:32:31.450 one in the early days for JCPenney. It only made 00:32:31.450 --> 00:32:33.430 it as a concept. It never made it to market. 00:32:33.549 --> 00:32:36.369 But it was one of probably one of my favorite 00:32:36.369 --> 00:32:38.529 objects from that collaboration. But it never 00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:41.210 saw the light of day. And it just, man, it had 00:32:41.210 --> 00:32:46.089 so much personality. But I think to answer your 00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:48.670 question more specifically, we're always going 00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:53.440 to see advancement in these products. It's just 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:56.319 always it's hard to predict where that advancement 00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:59.799 is going to be. The pop tops of cans sort of 00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:02.660 eliminates the need for a can opener. So it becomes 00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:05.380 more of a commodity item. People stop innovating 00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:08.960 as much on it. Similar to how we saw the integration 00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:13.900 of ice dispensers on refrigerators really kill 00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:18.029 the. ice tray design ethos and advancement you 00:33:18.029 --> 00:33:19.829 know like that used to be a fun object that people 00:33:19.829 --> 00:33:21.710 were like how else could we make it easy to get 00:33:21.710 --> 00:33:23.430 ice cubes out of a tray and then someone was 00:33:23.430 --> 00:33:24.950 like we're just going to make them come out of 00:33:24.950 --> 00:33:28.769 the refrigerator and they were like oh that's 00:33:28.769 --> 00:33:31.910 that's really smart i think innovation oftentimes 00:33:31.910 --> 00:33:36.630 we innovate tools out of existence but a can 00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:38.970 opener is one of those like foundational items 00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:42.539 that I think will be around for a long, long 00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.160 time. Because I think as you pointed out, like 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.299 there's still just going to be the need for like 00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:50.279 a low cost can that doesn't invest in that extra 00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:53.259 material and money to peel the top off. So you 00:33:53.259 --> 00:33:55.200 got to find a way to open it. And it's in your 00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.160 best interest to have a tool to be able to do 00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:58.960 that. That isn't just, you know, a hammer and 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.319 chisel. Ben's got a fantastic idea that he wants 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.920 to run past you as an expert in tin opener design. 00:34:05.859 --> 00:34:09.199 Do you want to share it? This is the inventor, 00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:13.059 isn't it? We cut steel in our factories using 00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:16.619 lasers. We have laser cut for steel up to really 00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:20.550 thick steel. Why isn't there a laser cutting 00:34:20.550 --> 00:34:23.909 for the tin opener? You put it on, it zaps the 00:34:23.909 --> 00:34:26.349 lid, holds the lid with a magnet, and you just 00:34:26.349 --> 00:34:29.090 pop it in recycling. There's no swerve. There's 00:34:29.090 --> 00:34:33.110 no beans being stuck everywhere. Why? Why is 00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:35.849 it not there? Ben, you put me in a hard position 00:34:35.849 --> 00:34:39.170 because I don't like being the naysayer when 00:34:39.170 --> 00:34:41.690 we're brainstorming. You're going to be the dream 00:34:41.690 --> 00:34:44.909 killer, aren't you? I feel like I'm going to. 00:34:45.389 --> 00:34:48.349 You know what? I think that one is an answer 00:34:48.349 --> 00:34:51.590 that just comes down to cost and technology and 00:34:51.590 --> 00:34:55.389 the investment to get that technology small enough 00:34:55.389 --> 00:34:58.889 at just the right size and just the right power. 00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:03.889 I think what it would need is... something more 00:35:03.889 --> 00:35:05.869 than just cutting through a can you know like 00:35:05.869 --> 00:35:08.489 i feel like it could cook the beans it could 00:35:08.489 --> 00:35:10.889 cut the can and then now we're talking the beans 00:35:10.889 --> 00:35:13.449 yeah this is why you never invite designers to 00:35:13.449 --> 00:35:16.090 a brainstorm you know guys this is classic but 00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:21.010 i think trees much the way the can took off as 00:35:21.010 --> 00:35:24.650 an innovation was because it was needed to fuel 00:35:24.650 --> 00:35:28.130 armies you know it was needed to fuel navies 00:35:28.130 --> 00:35:32.250 um And so there was enough of a market size to 00:35:32.250 --> 00:35:35.469 really promote that level of investment and innovation 00:35:35.469 --> 00:35:39.349 and that investment in capital equipment. All 00:35:39.349 --> 00:35:41.869 it takes is a tinkerer, you know, somebody who's 00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:43.849 going to sit there and like work on making this 00:35:43.849 --> 00:35:47.840 happen. It could be a 16 -year -old. you know, 00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:50.880 at a tech school who's like, I did it. I've figured 00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:53.559 it out. It's not just about the invention. Yes, 00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:55.940 we can make a better tin opener, but you've got 00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:57.980 to tell people about it, whether it's at Target 00:35:57.980 --> 00:36:01.320 or whatever the channel is. You've got to market 00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.539 it. There's got to be a big enough business case 00:36:03.539 --> 00:36:05.400 to warrant that investment, both the design and 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.300 the capital and the marketing. And that market's 00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:10.860 got to be really appealing for us to warrant 00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.380 that change. And is that one of the reasons why 00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:17.500 the tin opener's kind of stagnated? aside from 00:36:17.500 --> 00:36:19.760 the aging population and maybe the questions 00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.420 around sustainability, that there isn't that 00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:25.340 market pool to kind of warrant the lasers and 00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:27.880 the diamond -cutted blades or whatever might 00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:31.880 be the next innovation? I think so. And it's 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:34.960 a mixture of that the market isn't there as much 00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:39.639 as there is also opportunity elsewhere that people 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.380 are going to focus on. And it's just not the 00:36:42.380 --> 00:36:47.519 shiny object. But to me, that's always where 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.219 something is ripe for innovation. You know, something's 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:53.719 ripe for something new is when it stagnates and 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:57.300 people are overlooking it. Then a company gets 00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:58.960 the opportunity to come along and rethink it. 00:36:59.019 --> 00:37:04.000 But to your point, Ben, marketing is so fun. 00:37:04.059 --> 00:37:06.880 So I talked about my first patent. It was for 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.360 some tongs. I have them. They're here. These 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.960 are the tongs, right? You know, it was this fun 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:16.809 project. And I remember driving from, where I 00:37:16.809 --> 00:37:19.170 live north of Philadelphia down to DC to visit 00:37:19.170 --> 00:37:21.349 my sister. And that drive, I was just thinking 00:37:21.349 --> 00:37:23.429 about tongs and just thinking about other objects 00:37:23.429 --> 00:37:27.829 that close, but don't like have anything to pop 00:37:27.829 --> 00:37:30.489 open. And I thought about nail clippers and how 00:37:30.489 --> 00:37:32.150 like nail clippers have that fun sort of twist 00:37:32.150 --> 00:37:34.829 around handle and it folds down and they're closed. 00:37:35.010 --> 00:37:36.570 I'm like, well, why can't we do something like 00:37:36.570 --> 00:37:39.349 that? And so that was really the impetus to these. 00:37:39.929 --> 00:37:42.210 And so when you're done with these, you just 00:37:42.210 --> 00:37:45.699 twist that. black heart and it nests in there. 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.179 And so it's never going to come apart. And it 00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:50.179 was like, we were all so excited about this guys. 00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:52.260 We were like, this is genius. We are going to 00:37:52.260 --> 00:37:54.739 make so much money off of this. We patented it. 00:37:54.900 --> 00:37:57.260 And it was in and out of the store in a year 00:37:57.260 --> 00:38:00.179 because we would walk into the store and find 00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:02.920 these things just like pulled apart and bent 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:05.139 because people didn't understand it. It was a 00:38:05.139 --> 00:38:09.820 hard lesson in innovation requires education. 00:38:10.659 --> 00:38:13.409 And the more you're going to innovate. the more 00:38:13.409 --> 00:38:15.750 you're going to have to educate. Rob, you talked 00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:18.380 about, you know... what makes it to the top of 00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:19.900 the list in terms of what you're going to work 00:38:19.900 --> 00:38:22.719 on next um and that's fascinating for me because 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.019 you know we've we've worked on you know nearly 00:38:25.019 --> 00:38:28.860 2 000 products as a design agency and we're constantly 00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:31.099 being that dream killer for people and going 00:38:31.099 --> 00:38:32.980 look i'm really sorry but you haven't thought 00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:34.760 about the fact yes that's the most amazing thing 00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:37.300 ever but it's going to cost 300 000 pounds just 00:38:37.300 --> 00:38:39.139 to tool it you know and all this kind of stuff 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:42.219 so what makes it to the top of your list when 00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:44.659 you guys go yes that that's a winner that's what 00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:47.550 we're going to work on next I mean, it's a great 00:38:47.550 --> 00:38:51.329 question. And there is a pretty straightforward 00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:55.510 list of constraints, one of which you just touched 00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:59.730 on is tooling. So, you know, we're pursuing a 00:38:59.730 --> 00:39:02.969 new line of gadgets, and we've budgeted, you 00:39:02.969 --> 00:39:04.989 know, a certain amount of money for tooling. 00:39:05.150 --> 00:39:07.750 But then in doing so, we're, you know, we have 00:39:07.750 --> 00:39:11.050 a strategic partner that we're going to launch 00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:14.210 it with, and that's going to help with the marketing. 00:39:16.279 --> 00:39:19.380 So that's a big lift. That's a big investment. 00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:22.239 That's where we look for partnerships in doing 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:24.420 it. But on items that we're like, hey, could 00:39:24.420 --> 00:39:27.219 we bring this to market ourselves? We have to 00:39:27.219 --> 00:39:30.659 think about tooling. We have to think about inventory. 00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.719 We have to think about just the competitive landscape. 00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:38.539 Who are we up against? Designers love furniture, 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.590 but furniture is like the most. competitive, 00:39:42.829 --> 00:39:45.909 like saturated market, there's so much furniture 00:39:45.909 --> 00:39:48.130 out there to choose from. So we're always looking 00:39:48.130 --> 00:39:51.710 for these kind of what we term opportunity gaps, 00:39:51.889 --> 00:39:55.050 where when we're meeting with people, when we're 00:39:55.050 --> 00:39:57.869 spending time with users in their home, which 00:39:57.869 --> 00:40:00.530 is a big part of our approach, you know, we just 00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:04.769 spend a lot of time in people's homes, invited, 00:40:04.949 --> 00:40:09.769 of course, but Sometimes not. Sometimes you're 00:40:09.769 --> 00:40:12.750 at someone's house making notes on how they use 00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:15.010 a tin opener. I'm not allowed to go to Nebraska 00:40:15.010 --> 00:40:19.329 anymore. But no, it's, you know, it's just you 00:40:19.329 --> 00:40:21.530 spend time and we're usually there to ask them 00:40:21.530 --> 00:40:25.949 about one topic, one area. But we're really eyes 00:40:25.949 --> 00:40:27.730 wide open when we're there and we're looking 00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:30.670 at everything. We're looking at their space and 00:40:30.670 --> 00:40:35.010 we'll often go off on tangents because opportunities 00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:40.070 really are everywhere. it takes this really kind 00:40:40.070 --> 00:40:44.130 of magical blend of looking for something that 00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:47.630 nobody's doing, but doing it in a way that's 00:40:47.630 --> 00:40:50.690 going to be like easy to grasp and easy to understand. 00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:54.849 And that's really the sort of like mix that we're 00:40:54.849 --> 00:40:57.369 always looking for. People always talk about 00:40:57.369 --> 00:41:00.590 wanting something to be intuitive, but they also 00:41:00.590 --> 00:41:02.889 want it to be innovative. And we're like, well, 00:41:02.929 --> 00:41:05.969 those are two very different things because intuition. 00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.480 isn't a real thing. It's intuition is a learned 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:13.239 experience that you have learned how something 00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.320 works by seeing it done before. You know, we 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:18.780 know to push buttons because we've grown up pushing 00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:21.719 buttons. For us, we're always looking at this, 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.739 this learning curve. And we're looking for opportunities 00:41:24.739 --> 00:41:27.420 that are more down at the like low end of that 00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:32.019 learning curve, leveraging known behaviors, known 00:41:32.019 --> 00:41:35.239 rituals, you know, because changing habits and 00:41:35.239 --> 00:41:38.219 changing rituals, that's where, that's where 00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:41.019 you need a lot of marketing. You need a lot of 00:41:41.019 --> 00:41:43.539 buzz, you know, you need a lot of product placement 00:41:43.539 --> 00:41:46.039 and celebrity endorsement. And you got to get 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:48.000 people to be like, have this fear of missing 00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:50.780 out of like, oh, well, I want to, I want to open 00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:53.880 my tins with lasers. I'm getting rid of this 00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:57.440 old mechanical thing. Did you guys hear they 00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.750 have lasers for this now? Seems like a real hazard 00:42:00.750 --> 00:42:03.309 with children, though, the lasers. Yeah, as you 00:42:03.309 --> 00:42:05.190 were talking, I was actually thinking about the 00:42:05.190 --> 00:42:08.510 regulatory challenges of lasers and tin openers. 00:42:09.050 --> 00:42:12.030 Yeah, I think that government agency is going 00:42:12.030 --> 00:42:17.949 to get that application. I am going to go away 00:42:17.949 --> 00:42:20.599 and do the calculations now, though. What's next 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.179 for the tin opener? If there was one thing you 00:42:23.179 --> 00:42:26.019 could do tomorrow to make the tin or the can 00:42:26.019 --> 00:42:30.039 or the food preservation perfect, what would 00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:32.280 it be? I think you're going to see that from 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:40.380 us in about a year. And man, but what a cliffhanger. 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:45.639 So coming up in season two. I think the same 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:47.980 opportunity exists for the tin opener as exists 00:42:47.980 --> 00:42:51.199 for so many other objects in our lives. And that 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.280 is simply to look at making them better, making 00:42:54.280 --> 00:42:57.579 them easier to use and making them more delightful. 00:42:57.940 --> 00:43:00.840 You know, just we need more joy in our lives 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.519 now more than ever. Please, people, make things 00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:06.789 more joyful. Rob, thank you so much for joining 00:43:06.789 --> 00:43:09.969 us. Phil, it's been an absolute pleasure. Don't 00:43:09.969 --> 00:43:13.889 forget to like, subscribe and tell your friends, 00:43:13.929 --> 00:43:17.530 please. You know, anyone who loves design, engineering 00:43:17.530 --> 00:43:20.309 and tin openers, they want to listen to this 00:43:20.309 --> 00:43:20.530 podcast.