WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.660 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we are 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:05.700 grappling with a set of ideas that, I have to 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.019 be honest, I found a little unsettling when I 00:00:08.019 --> 00:00:10.000 first read through them. They are unsettling, 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.740 aren't they? It's one of those topics where, 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:13.779 you know, once you see the pattern, you can't 00:00:13.779 --> 00:00:15.820 unsee it. It changes how you watch the news, 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:17.879 how you read a fundraising email, everything. 00:00:18.260 --> 00:00:20.559 And it starts with a premise that just feels 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:23.969 completely backward to my intuition. Usually, 00:00:24.030 --> 00:00:26.890 if I see a problem like a social injustice, my 00:00:26.890 --> 00:00:30.230 gut says, OK, I need to prove how bad it is. 00:00:30.289 --> 00:00:32.810 Right. Bring the receipts. Exactly. I need to 00:00:32.810 --> 00:00:35.750 document the pain, the trauma to get people to 00:00:35.750 --> 00:00:37.869 care enough to actually fix it. That just feels 00:00:37.869 --> 00:00:39.869 like the logical first step. And that is the 00:00:39.869 --> 00:00:42.789 standard operating procedure for almost all social 00:00:42.789 --> 00:00:45.409 change work. The logic is, you know, pretty simple. 00:00:45.469 --> 00:00:47.250 If I can show you the damage, you'll be morally 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:50.549 compelled to intervene. But today's deep dive 00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:54.329 suggests that this very instinct, this obsession 00:00:54.329 --> 00:00:57.649 with documenting brokenness, might actually be 00:00:57.649 --> 00:01:01.009 a trap. We're unpacking a really seminal open 00:01:01.009 --> 00:01:04.250 letter from 2009 by a scholar named Eve Tuck. 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:07.750 It's titled, Suspending Damage, A Letter to Communities. 00:01:08.170 --> 00:01:10.150 And this is a foundational text in Indigenous 00:01:10.150 --> 00:01:13.489 studies. Eve Tuck is an Angus, and she was writing 00:01:13.489 --> 00:01:15.730 specifically to Indigenous communities and researchers. 00:01:16.030 --> 00:01:18.209 But we're talking about it today because we're 00:01:18.209 --> 00:01:20.810 cross -referencing her work with a new analysis 00:01:20.810 --> 00:01:23.129 on interfaith peacebuilding. Which seems like 00:01:23.129 --> 00:01:25.930 a big jump at first, but the connection is actually 00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:28.489 really, really tight. We're looking at how her 00:01:28.489 --> 00:01:30.790 warning applies to religious conflict and polarization 00:01:30.790 --> 00:01:34.049 today. Exactly. The mission is to figure out 00:01:34.049 --> 00:01:36.969 why defining a community by its pain is so dangerous 00:01:36.969 --> 00:01:40.109 and to understand what on earth Tuck means by 00:01:40.109 --> 00:01:43.250 a desire -based framework. And look, just clear 00:01:43.250 --> 00:01:44.890 the air before we start because I know what some 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:46.769 listeners might be thinking. This isn't toxic 00:01:46.769 --> 00:01:49.109 positivity, is it? We're not saying just ignore 00:01:49.109 --> 00:01:51.549 the suffering. Not at all. And that is the hardest 00:01:51.549 --> 00:01:53.549 part of this to grasp. This isn't about pretending 00:01:53.549 --> 00:01:56.150 everything is fine. It's about refusing to let 00:01:56.150 --> 00:01:58.609 the not fine parts be the only definition of 00:01:58.609 --> 00:02:00.670 who you are. Okay, so let's get into the gears 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:04.590 of this. Tuck coins this term, damage -centered 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:07.090 research. Can you break that down for us? It's 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:09.289 a bit more specific than just any research that 00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:12.370 talks about bad things. Tuck defines it as research 00:02:12.370 --> 00:02:14.509 that operates, even with the best intentions, 00:02:14.789 --> 00:02:18.050 from a specific theory of change. Okay. The idea 00:02:18.050 --> 00:02:21.310 is that you intentionally document pain and brokenness 00:02:21.310 --> 00:02:25.229 specifically to hold power accountable. You establish 00:02:25.229 --> 00:02:28.469 harm to get reparation. Which, to be fair, sounds 00:02:28.469 --> 00:02:30.370 like a solid strategy. It sounds like a lawsuit. 00:02:30.509 --> 00:02:33.120 Oof. You hurt me. Here's the proof. Now pay up. 00:02:33.259 --> 00:02:35.280 That's exactly what it is. The source material 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.020 calls this the litigation model. Think about 00:02:38.020 --> 00:02:40.120 it. If you're in a personal injury case, you 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:41.840 don't walk into court talking about how great 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:43.840 your life is. No, you bring the medical bills. 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.180 You show the jury the cast on your leg. You have 00:02:46.180 --> 00:02:48.580 to perform your brokenness to get paid. Right. 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:51.500 And history shows this works. To a point. The 00:02:51.500 --> 00:02:53.460 sources mention Brown v. Board of Education. 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:55.900 That's the holy grail of civil rights litigation. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:58.319 For sure. And they bring up the famous clock 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:01.659 doll test used in that case. Yeah. From the 1940s, 00:03:01.659 --> 00:03:04.379 researchers showed black children a white doll 00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:07.180 and a black doll and asked which one was nice 00:03:07.180 --> 00:03:10.060 or bad. I've seen footage of that. It is absolutely 00:03:10.060 --> 00:03:12.120 heartbreaking. It's get wrenching. And Thurgood 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:14.620 Marshall used that data to argue that segregation 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:17.699 wasn't just unfair. It was psychologically damaging 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:20.699 these children. He proved the injury and he won. 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:23.060 So I'm going to play skeptic here for a second. 00:03:23.139 --> 00:03:25.139 Yeah. If it worked for Thurgood Marshall, if 00:03:25.139 --> 00:03:28.360 it ended legal segregation. Why is Eve Tuck saying 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.020 we need to suspend it? Why fix what isn't broken? 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.740 Because the courtroom is a very specific place. 00:03:34.139 --> 00:03:36.539 And when you take that litigation logic out of 00:03:36.539 --> 00:03:39.039 the courtroom and apply it to an entire community's 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.699 identity, for decades, things start to get toxic. 00:03:42.939 --> 00:03:45.159 How so? Because it pathologizes them. That's 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:47.400 the key word she uses. Pathologizing, like from 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.080 pathology. It sounds medical. It is. It treats 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.439 the community like a chronic disease case. If 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:54.300 the only time you hear about a community is in 00:03:54.300 --> 00:03:56.419 the context of their suffering or their poverty 00:03:56.419 --> 00:03:59.240 or their trauma, you stop seeing them as people 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:01.879 and start seeing them as patients, as permanently 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.439 broken. I see. It's the difference between saying, 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.840 I have a broken leg and I have a broken person. 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:10.520 Exactly that. And in the interfaith and peace 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:12.419 building world, which is the other half of our 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:15.300 source material, this is just rampant. Think 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:17.259 about how we talk about conflict zones. Oh, I've 00:04:17.259 --> 00:04:19.379 seen the grant proposals. They always start with 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:21.339 the casualty counts. They start with hate crime 00:04:21.339 --> 00:04:24.279 statistics. It's just pages and pages of, look 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:26.360 how much everyone hates each other. Precisely. 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.459 It's a catalog of despair. And the assumption 00:04:29.459 --> 00:04:32.879 is, if I show the donor how awful it is, they'll 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.740 give us money to fix it. But the source argues 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:38.439 that when we do this, we strip these communities 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:40.819 of their complexity. Can you give an example 00:04:40.819 --> 00:04:42.540 of what that stripping away looks like? Well, 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:44.899 just look at how major religions get discussed 00:04:44.899 --> 00:04:47.420 in the media during conflicts. We risk reducing 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:50.199 Judaism solely to the Holocaust or the events 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:52.939 of October 7th. Right. Or reducing Islam solely 00:04:52.939 --> 00:04:56.279 to post 9 -11 security threats or Christianity 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:58.980 in the global south just to the wounds of colonization. 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:01.899 And those things are so real. You can't just 00:05:01.899 --> 00:05:04.100 pretend the Holocaust or colonization didn't 00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:06.879 happen. No, and Tuck is very clear about this. 00:05:06.939 --> 00:05:10.459 This is not amnesia. But she asks a crucial question. 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:13.339 If that is the only story we tell, is that history? 00:05:14.060 --> 00:05:16.680 Or is that an act of aggression? An act of aggression. 00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:18.980 That's strong language. It is, but think about 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:21.180 it. If I introduce you to someone and I say, 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:23.839 this is so -and -so, they were the victim of 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.579 a terrible crime, and that's all I say, I've 00:05:26.579 --> 00:05:28.319 just defined you by the worst thing that ever 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.660 happened to you. You've robbed me of my agency. 00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:33.069 You've made me a character in someone else's 00:05:33.069 --> 00:05:35.449 tragedy, not the protagonist of my own life. 00:05:35.629 --> 00:05:38.069 Exactly. OK, that clicks. So if we fall into 00:05:38.069 --> 00:05:40.670 this damage trap, what's the alternative? This 00:05:40.670 --> 00:05:43.110 is where she brings in the desire based framework. 00:05:43.269 --> 00:05:45.089 Right. And we have to be really careful with 00:05:45.089 --> 00:05:46.949 that word desire, because in English we usually 00:05:46.949 --> 00:05:49.089 think of, you know, wanting a slice of pizza 00:05:49.089 --> 00:05:51.110 or something. Yeah. I desire a vacation right 00:05:51.110 --> 00:05:53.550 now. Me too. Yeah. But Tuck is drawing on some 00:05:53.550 --> 00:05:55.949 heavier philosophy here, Deleuze and Guattari. 00:05:56.529 --> 00:05:59.689 And in this framework, desire isn't about lack. 00:05:59.970 --> 00:06:03.259 It's not. I want what I don't have. It's what 00:06:03.259 --> 00:06:05.720 she calls an assemblage. Okay, you're going to 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:07.680 have to translate assemblage for us. That sounds 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:09.939 a little like art school jargon. It does a bit. 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.180 Think of it as a generative accumulation, a mosaic. 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:17.420 It's the sum total of your wisdom, your hope, 00:06:17.579 --> 00:06:19.860 your contradictions, your heritage, and your 00:06:19.860 --> 00:06:23.540 pain. The source has this great quote. desire 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:26.660 accounts for the loss and despair but also the 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:30.339 visions and the wisdom of lived lives so damage 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:33.480 is a snapshot of the wound but desire is the 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:35.980 whole movie that's a perfect way to put it to 00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:38.319 make this concrete tuck describes a photography 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.500 exhibit at the schomburg center in new york stereotypes 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:44.199 versus human types i love this part of the reading 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:45.740 walk us through it because i think it really 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:47.980 helps land the plane so imagine you walk into 00:06:47.980 --> 00:06:50.500 the first room the damage room It's filled with 00:06:50.500 --> 00:06:53.420 these grotesque historical caricatures of African 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:56.220 -Americans, alligator bait images, Uncle Tom 00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:59.160 posters. Just flat, one -dimensional images of 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.759 mockery or pity. Exactly. But then you walk into 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:05.500 the second room, the desire room. These are the 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:07.459 human types. They were old photographs, the Gary 00:07:07.459 --> 00:07:09.420 types of African -Americans from the Victorian 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:11.980 era. And what's the shift in feeling there? It's 00:07:11.980 --> 00:07:14.720 profound. These people were posed. They chose 00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:17.279 their clothes. They chose how to be seen. They 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:19.699 look back at the camera with dignity, with complexity. 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:21.740 They weren't just reacting to a system of oppression. 00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:23.819 They were just being. They were subjects of their 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:26.100 own lives. They were subjects of desire. They 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:28.339 had a past and a future that belonged to them. 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:30.399 And that is the shift Tuck wants us to make. 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.800 Stop looking at the stereotype of the victim 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.839 and start looking at the complex human. Okay, 00:07:35.899 --> 00:07:38.660 emotionally, I completely buy that. But I can 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:41.399 hear the pragmatist in my head saying, if I'm 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:43.779 working in a conflict zone, isn't focusing on 00:07:43.779 --> 00:07:48.480 desire a little bit? Soft. Aren't you just glossing 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:50.360 over the fact that the house is on fire? And 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:52.399 that is the number one criticism. Aren't you 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:54.899 just in denial? But Tuck tackles this with her 00:07:54.899 --> 00:07:57.319 storm analogy. She says a desire -based framework 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.759 is not the song about looking for a silver lining. 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:02.579 It is the song about walking through the storm. 00:08:02.699 --> 00:08:04.540 I highlighted that line, walking through the 00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:07.720 storm. It acknowledges the storm is real. You 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:10.839 might get wet, you might get hurt, but it refuses 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.279 to let the storm be the only interesting thing 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.300 about the person walking. It says the storm is 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:18.560 happening, but I am still here and I am still 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.839 creating and I am still me. So it's the difference 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:23.240 between look at this poor victim in the rain. 00:08:23.850 --> 00:08:25.629 And look at this person navigating the rain. 00:08:25.870 --> 00:08:27.610 Precisely. And in the interfaith world, this 00:08:27.610 --> 00:08:30.069 just changes the entire conversation. Right now, 00:08:30.089 --> 00:08:32.610 so many dialogues get stuck in what scholars 00:08:32.610 --> 00:08:35.070 call competitive victimhood. Oh, I've been in 00:08:35.070 --> 00:08:38.230 those rooms. My tragedy is bigger than your tragedy. 00:08:38.429 --> 00:08:40.990 It's a race to the bottom. It is. And it's a 00:08:40.990 --> 00:08:43.470 dead end. Because if your only currency is your 00:08:43.470 --> 00:08:45.830 pain, you can never let it go or you go bankrupt. 00:08:46.210 --> 00:08:49.289 A desire -based framework flips that. It allows 00:08:49.289 --> 00:08:51.590 communities to show up as bearers of wisdom. 00:08:51.870 --> 00:08:54.129 They bring their theology, their humor, their 00:08:54.129 --> 00:08:56.450 traditions. They show up as what Avery Gordon 00:08:56.450 --> 00:08:59.509 calls complex personhood. Complex personhood. 00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:02.070 Okay, another term we need to pin down. What 00:09:02.070 --> 00:09:04.159 does that look like in the real world? It means 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:06.460 acknowledging that people are messy and full 00:09:06.460 --> 00:09:09.039 of contradictions, and that's okay. Tuck shares 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.980 this story from her colleague, Monique Gouchard, 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.340 that is just perfect. The sneaker line paradox. 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:18.399 Yes. This story really stuck with me. So Monique 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.659 is working with these youth researchers in the 00:09:20.659 --> 00:09:23.620 Bronx. Right. And they spend the whole day doing 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:26.399 this incredibly high level critical work. They're 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.440 critiquing corporate capitalism, breaking down 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.700 globalization, analyzing how these systems exploit 00:09:31.700 --> 00:09:34.080 their communities. They're sharp, socially conscious 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.409 critics of the system. And then the sun goes 00:09:36.409 --> 00:09:39.009 down. And then the sun goes down. And where do 00:09:39.009 --> 00:09:41.889 these anti -capitalist warriors go? They go stand 00:09:41.889 --> 00:09:45.110 in line for hours to buy the new Air Jordan sneakers. 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:47.230 Which are the ultimate symbol of the corporate 00:09:47.230 --> 00:09:49.049 machine they just spent all day tearing apart. 00:09:49.230 --> 00:09:51.769 Exactly. Now, a damage -centered researcher looks 00:09:51.769 --> 00:09:55.009 at those kids and says, hypocrites or, you know, 00:09:55.070 --> 00:09:57.549 false consciousness. You judge them. You think 00:09:57.549 --> 00:10:01.009 they failed the test. Right. But a desire -based 00:10:01.009 --> 00:10:05.019 framework looked at that and sees. The kids knew 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:06.879 it was a contradiction. They were at ease with 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:09.080 it. They can critique the system and still want 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.799 the shoes because in their world, those shoes 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.720 represent status, style, joy. It's allowing them 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:17.940 to be human, not just a political talking point. 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.639 And this sneaker logic, this ability to hold 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.220 contradictions is actually life or death in peace 00:10:23.220 --> 00:10:25.720 building. OK, connect those dots for me. How 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:27.919 do we get from Air Jordans to peace? Because 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.779 people in conflict zones are living the ultimate 00:10:30.779 --> 00:10:33.779 contradiction. This framework allows us to understand, 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:36.580 for instance, a Palestinian imam who is deeply 00:10:36.580 --> 00:10:39.080 mourning the destruction of his village, but 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.919 who is also studying Hebrew to read Jewish philosophy 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:43.940 in the original. Which would seem impossible 00:10:43.940 --> 00:10:46.700 if you only view him as a victim. Right. Or an 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:49.000 Israeli rabbi who is grieving a terror attack, 00:10:49.179 --> 00:10:51.759 but who is also building a local coalition with 00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.879 his Muslim neighbors. It breaks the binary of 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.399 victim versus aggressor. Or broken versus whole. 00:10:58.659 --> 00:11:00.860 We are addicted to those binaries, aren't we? 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.519 Totally. A spoiler named Edward Soja calls the 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:07.139 alternative thirding. It's moving beyond either 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:10.279 to a third space where multiple truths can exist 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:13.379 at once. So this leads us to the final big concept 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:16.500 in the stack. If we aren't just surviving the 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:19.740 damage, what are we doing? The term used is survivance. 00:11:20.330 --> 00:11:22.649 Is that just a fancy word for survival? No, and 00:11:22.649 --> 00:11:24.789 this is crucial. It comes from Gerald Vezinor, 00:11:24.929 --> 00:11:28.490 an Anishinaabe scholar. Survival is just staying 00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:31.370 alive. It's defensive. It's a reflex. You survive 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:34.169 a car crash. You just hold on tight enough. Exactly. 00:11:34.169 --> 00:11:37.149 But survivance is active. Vezinor defines it 00:11:37.149 --> 00:11:40.710 as a creative, generative, sovereign presence. 00:11:41.210 --> 00:11:44.009 It means you are creating new ways of being while 00:11:44.009 --> 00:11:45.870 you stay alive. You aren't just reacting to the 00:11:45.870 --> 00:11:48.250 oppressor. You are out creating them. Gives an 00:11:48.250 --> 00:11:50.169 example of that. The source material mentions 00:11:50.169 --> 00:11:52.450 these communities in South Florida, Jewish and 00:11:52.450 --> 00:11:54.370 Muslim communities who, you know, have plenty 00:11:54.370 --> 00:11:56.529 of reasons to be at odds given global events. 00:11:56.690 --> 00:11:58.730 For sure. The tension must be incredibly high. 00:11:58.889 --> 00:12:01.149 A survival mode would be them just issuing press 00:12:01.149 --> 00:12:03.330 releases, condemning violence, and then going 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:05.090 back to their separate corners. That's damage 00:12:05.090 --> 00:12:07.509 control. But they did survivance instead. They 00:12:07.509 --> 00:12:11.210 did. They came together to co -author new theological 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:14.289 frameworks for coexistence. They were analyzing 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:16.789 their scriptures together to find a path forward. 00:12:17.029 --> 00:12:19.230 They weren't rehearsing their grief. They were 00:12:19.230 --> 00:12:22.289 generating new wisdom. That is a sovereign act. 00:12:22.549 --> 00:12:25.190 So given all of this, Tuck ends her letter with 00:12:25.190 --> 00:12:28.429 a really radical demand. She calls for a moratorium. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.480 A moratorium on damage -centered research. It's 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.539 a bold move. She's essentially saying stop the 00:12:34.539 --> 00:12:37.259 presses. Does she mean we just stop doing research? 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:40.690 Just stop asking questions and go home? No, it's 00:12:40.690 --> 00:12:43.230 not anti -intellectual. It's a call for a time 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:46.350 out, a freeze on the kind of research that just 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:49.590 extracts pain for academic tenure or for funding. 00:12:49.889 --> 00:12:52.049 She wants us to rethink our theories of change. 00:12:52.210 --> 00:12:54.330 Are we just collecting pain stories or are we 00:12:54.330 --> 00:12:56.710 helping a community thrive? There's a story at 00:12:56.710 --> 00:12:58.370 the very end of the material that I think sums 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:00.929 all this up better than any theory could. The 00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:02.769 story from the Australian Parliament in 2008. 00:13:03.090 --> 00:13:05.940 Yes. So it was this historic day. Prime Minister 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:08.799 Kevin Rudd was offering a formal national apology 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.419 to indigenous peoples for the stolen generations. 00:13:11.659 --> 00:13:14.360 A massive moment of acknowledging damage. But 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.360 then the opposition leader, Rendon Nelson, stood 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:21.009 up and he gave this. this hollow counter narrative 00:13:21.009 --> 00:13:23.529 he started minimizing the impact making excuses 00:13:23.529 --> 00:13:27.149 classic yes but response mistakes were made but 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:29.710 let's not get carried away exactly and the gallery 00:13:29.710 --> 00:13:33.230 is packed with indigenous elders and allies and 00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:35.610 instead of shouting him down they did something 00:13:35.610 --> 00:13:38.690 else one by one they stood up and they turned 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:40.470 their backs they just turned around They turned 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:42.350 their backs on him and then they started a slow 00:13:42.350 --> 00:13:45.190 clap, a rhythmic slow clap. And the sound grew 00:13:45.190 --> 00:13:47.549 until it literally drowned out the voice of the 00:13:47.549 --> 00:13:50.649 man speaking at the podium. Wow. That gives me 00:13:50.649 --> 00:13:53.590 chills. Tuck calls this a sovereign act. It wasn't 00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:56.110 a riot. It was a rejection. They essentially 00:13:56.110 --> 00:13:58.889 said, we are done listening to a story that defines 00:13:58.889 --> 00:14:02.909 us by your terms. We are done. That image, turning 00:14:02.909 --> 00:14:05.389 your back on a narrative that doesn't serve you. 00:14:05.610 --> 00:14:07.809 That really is the core of this entire deep dive. 00:14:07.929 --> 00:14:10.070 It is. It's the refusal to be a victim, the refusal 00:14:10.070 --> 00:14:12.029 to be a statistic. And for anyone listening, 00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:14.629 that is the lesson. So let's bring this home. 00:14:14.710 --> 00:14:17.169 What's the final takeaway? How do we apply this 00:14:17.169 --> 00:14:20.190 tomorrow morning? I think it's this. We have 00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:22.149 to stop thinking that the only way to get people 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:25.210 to care is to show them the blood. We need to 00:14:25.210 --> 00:14:27.549 look for the desire. We need to look for the 00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:30.350 human type, not the stereotype. Because you can 00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.149 pity a victim, but you can only partner with 00:14:33.149 --> 00:14:35.759 a person. Beautifully said. You can't build a 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.379 future on pity. You can only build it on shared 00:14:38.379 --> 00:14:41.000 hope. I think that leads us to a really provocative 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.299 thought to leave our listeners with today. I've 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:45.980 been thinking about this, about that silence 00:14:45.980 --> 00:14:48.559 that Tuck talks about, the silence when you stop 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.120 listing your grievances. So here's the question 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.200 for you. If you stop telling the story of your 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:56.899 life or your community through the list of things 00:14:56.899 --> 00:14:59.720 that have hurt you, what story would be left 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.919 to tell? That's a scary question. Because for 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.120 some of us, that list is our armor. It is terrifying. 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.159 If you take away the damage, is there anything 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.700 left? Is that silence just empty? Or is that 00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:14.139 silence exactly where the real work begins? A 00:15:14.139 --> 00:15:15.799 question worth sitting with. Thank you for diving 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:17.580 deep with us today. Always a pleasure. See you 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:17.799 next time.