WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.339 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. We are doing something 00:00:02.339 --> 00:00:05.379 a little distinct today, a bit of mental time 00:00:05.379 --> 00:00:07.580 travel. I want you to look at your phone, look 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:10.160 at your calendar, and just mentally adjust the 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.539 date. We are projecting ourselves forward to 00:00:13.539 --> 00:00:17.160 February 2026. Which, depending on when you're 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:18.899 listening to this, is either right around the 00:00:18.899 --> 00:00:22.300 corner or uncomfortably close. It's looming large 00:00:22.300 --> 00:00:24.469 on the horizon. It really is. And the reason 00:00:24.469 --> 00:00:27.010 we're setting the scene in early 2026 is because 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:29.370 the United States is staring down the barrel 00:00:29.370 --> 00:00:32.789 of a massive once in a lifetime milestone. We 00:00:32.789 --> 00:00:37.250 are just months away from July 4, 2026, the semi 00:00:37.250 --> 00:00:40.810 -quincentennial. The big 250, 250 years, two 00:00:40.810 --> 00:00:43.189 and a half centuries since the signing of the 00:00:43.189 --> 00:00:45.109 Declaration of Independence. I mean, that is 00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:47.609 a quarter of a millennium of the American experiment. 00:00:47.909 --> 00:00:49.310 And usually, you know, when you think about a 00:00:49.310 --> 00:00:52.090 birthday of that magnitude, the vibe is celebratory. 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:54.640 supposed to be a party. Absolutely. You picture 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.679 the tall ships sailing into Boston Harbor, the 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.859 inevitable fireworks over the National Mall, 00:00:59.979 --> 00:01:02.060 the commemorative coins, all the speeches about 00:01:02.060 --> 00:01:04.219 how far we've come. It's usually a moment for 00:01:04.219 --> 00:01:07.159 a, you know, a victory lap. Right. But the research 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:09.799 we're unpacking today, specifically a really 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:12.260 provocative article called Children of Abraham 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:15.760 on Sacred Ground by a scholar named Iqbal Akhtar. 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:18.700 It suggests that if we're preparing for a party, 00:01:18.819 --> 00:01:21.379 we are reading the room completely wrong. Yeah, 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:25.079 Akhtar frames this moment not as a celebration, 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:28.239 but as a stress test. And I think that is such 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:31.340 a useful, if a little sobering, metaphor. A stress 00:01:31.340 --> 00:01:33.620 test? Yeah. I mean, think about it. When engineers 00:01:33.620 --> 00:01:36.640 stress test a bridge. They don't do it on a sunny 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:38.859 day. They load it with immense weight. They subject 00:01:38.859 --> 00:01:41.219 it to pressure to see if the beams hold or if 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:44.019 the steel snaps. Oktar is basically arguing that 00:01:44.019 --> 00:01:46.719 this 250th anniversary is applying that kind 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.719 of pressure to the structural integrity of the 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.620 United States. And he's seeing fractures. He's 00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:52.459 seeing cracks appear. And the source material, 00:01:52.659 --> 00:01:54.879 it paints a very specific and frankly kind of 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:57.840 grim picture of the national mood in this 2026 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.879 scenario we're imagining. It talks about a decline 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.560 in institutional trust that has gone from a slide 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:06.560 to a complete freeze. Right. Trust in everything. 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.520 Government, media, even in each other. It also 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.240 describes an ambient polarization, which is a 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.020 great, terrifying phrase. It is a great phrase. 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.639 It suggests the tension isn't just, you know, 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:20.479 in Washington, D .C. It's in the grocery store. 00:02:20.539 --> 00:02:22.120 It's at the school board meeting. It's at the 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.800 Thanksgiving dinner table. It's everywhere. And 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.879 specifically, there's a rising tide of hate incidents. 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:31.680 That ambient tension is the key. Because it means 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.439 the political has become deeply personal in a 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.879 way that feels unsafe for a lot of people. And 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:41.159 this is where the deep dive takes a turn that 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.259 might surprise you. Because usually when pundits 00:02:44.259 --> 00:02:46.699 talk about the health of the nation, they look 00:02:46.699 --> 00:02:49.500 at the S &P 500 or they look at election polling 00:02:49.500 --> 00:02:51.620 data. The usual metrics. The usual metric, Oktar 00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:54.259 says. Stop looking there. If you want to know 00:02:54.259 --> 00:02:56.699 if America is going to survive its 250th birthday. 00:02:57.310 --> 00:02:59.129 If you really want to know if the experiment 00:02:59.129 --> 00:03:01.530 is actually working, you need to look at two 00:03:01.530 --> 00:03:03.830 very specific, relatively small populations, 00:03:04.150 --> 00:03:07.370 American Jews and American Muslims. It does feel 00:03:07.370 --> 00:03:09.090 a little counterintuitive at first. I mean, these 00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:10.750 aren't the largest demographic groups in the 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:13.789 country by a long shot. Not at all. But the argument 00:03:13.789 --> 00:03:16.069 here is that they are the bellwethers. They are 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:19.229 the canaries in the coal mine for American democracy. 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:22.509 So if they're not OK, nobody's OK. That's the 00:03:22.509 --> 00:03:24.849 idea. Because the central tension of the American 00:03:24.849 --> 00:03:27.569 project isn't really, can we make money or can 00:03:27.569 --> 00:03:30.469 we build a powerful army? The real fundamental 00:03:30.469 --> 00:03:34.210 tension is, can we live together with deep, profound, 00:03:34.310 --> 00:03:37.330 fundamental differences? That is the question 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:39.569 the country was founded to answer. And right 00:03:39.569 --> 00:03:42.789 now, Jewish and Muslim communities are navigating 00:03:42.789 --> 00:03:45.759 the most. intense, high stakes version of that 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.319 question. They're facing this landscape of rising 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.259 hostility and really competing narratives about 00:03:51.259 --> 00:03:53.080 whether they even belong here in the first place. 00:03:53.259 --> 00:03:55.219 So the thesis we're exploring today is pretty 00:03:55.219 --> 00:03:57.719 heavy. It's that the fate of American religious 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.900 pluralism, the entire machinery that allows us 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:03.580 to function as a diverse society, it all hinges 00:04:03.580 --> 00:04:05.659 on whether these two communities can figure out 00:04:05.659 --> 00:04:07.780 a way to move from what the author calls fair 00:04:07.780 --> 00:04:11.199 weather dialogue to a rugged, shared commitment 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.699 to one another's safety. Rugged commitment. I 00:04:13.699 --> 00:04:15.520 love that phrase. And I want us to keep coming 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:17.699 back to that. It implies the relationship has 00:04:17.699 --> 00:04:19.779 to be durable. You know, it has to be strong 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:21.540 enough to survive bad weather. It's not just 00:04:21.540 --> 00:04:23.819 about having tea and hummus when things are calm. 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:26.439 Right. It's not a garden party. Not at all. It's 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:29.370 about what you do. When the storm hits, what 00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:31.170 do you do when the hurricane is bearing down 00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:33.449 on you? So we've got a serious roadmap for this 00:04:33.449 --> 00:04:36.069 deep dive. We're going to start by aggressively 00:04:36.069 --> 00:04:39.069 debunking the standard history book narrative 00:04:39.069 --> 00:04:42.730 because it turns out our timeline of who arrived 00:04:42.730 --> 00:04:46.149 when regarding these communities is just factually 00:04:46.149 --> 00:04:49.110 empirically wrong. It's a major historical correction 00:04:49.110 --> 00:04:51.149 that we need to make. Then we're going to get 00:04:51.149 --> 00:04:53.649 really granular and parse the difference between 00:04:53.649 --> 00:04:56.750 diversity and pluralism, a distinction that a 00:04:56.750 --> 00:04:59.730 Harvard scholar Diana Eck makes, which is just 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:01.970 absolutely crucial for understanding our current 00:05:01.970 --> 00:05:04.389 moment. And after that, we have to go through 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:06.709 the fire. We're going to have a difficult, honest 00:05:06.709 --> 00:05:08.990 conversation about the collapse of the interfaith 00:05:08.990 --> 00:05:12.589 movement after October 7, 2023, and really try 00:05:12.589 --> 00:05:15.430 to understand why the old models failed so spectacularly. 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.439 And finally, and this is where it gets hopeful, 00:05:17.620 --> 00:05:19.759 we're going to look at the secret weapons that 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:22.079 are hidden inside Jewish and Muslim theology, 00:05:22.300 --> 00:05:24.980 the source code, if you will, that might actually 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:27.720 offer a solution to this crisis, a way forward. 00:05:28.170 --> 00:05:30.569 It's a lot to unpack, but I think it's really 00:05:30.569 --> 00:05:33.490 the only way to truly understand what's at stake 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:36.250 for the country in 2026 and beyond. OK, let's 00:05:36.250 --> 00:05:38.089 start with that historical correction, because 00:05:38.089 --> 00:05:39.649 I think if I went out on the street right now 00:05:39.649 --> 00:05:41.410 with a microphone and asked the average person 00:05:41.410 --> 00:05:44.089 to just, you know, sketch out the timeline of 00:05:44.089 --> 00:05:46.610 religion in America, I'd get a very specific 00:05:46.610 --> 00:05:48.629 story. Oh, for sure. You and I both know what 00:05:48.629 --> 00:05:51.000 they'd say. It would start with the pilgrims 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:53.180 and the Puritans, Protestant Christians. Then 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:55.399 you get the founding fathers, mostly deists or 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.199 liberal Protestants. And then much, much later, 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.459 maybe around Ellis Island or the mid -20th century, 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.060 the others arrive. The Jews, the Muslims, the 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:06.180 Hindus, the Buddhists, they show up late and 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:07.939 kind of have to ask for permission to join the 00:06:07.939 --> 00:06:11.439 club. That is the default setting in our cultural 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.459 memories, baked in. And it frames American history 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:17.500 as a kind of dinner party where Protestant Christianity 00:06:17.500 --> 00:06:20.180 is the host. They own the house and everyone 00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:22.439 else is a guest. And guests have to be polite. 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.759 Guests have to be polite. Guests can't make too 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.699 much noise. And guests ultimately can be asked 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:31.600 to leave if they become inconvenient. But the 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.019 source material we're looking at today argues 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:36.920 that this is historically incomplete. In fact, 00:06:36.939 --> 00:06:40.300 it's just wrong. Jews and Muslims aren't guests 00:06:40.300 --> 00:06:43.160 who arrive late to the party. They are what Akhtar 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:47.120 calls constitutive threads of the fabric. Constitutive 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.259 threads, meaning if you pull them out, the fabric 00:06:50.259 --> 00:06:52.300 itself unravels. It's not the same piece of cloth 00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:54.500 anymore. Exactly. They were here before the United 00:06:54.500 --> 00:06:56.240 States was the United States. They aren't just 00:06:56.240 --> 00:06:58.899 in America. They helped make America. The structure 00:06:58.899 --> 00:07:01.500 is built with their contributions. Okay, let's 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:03.079 dig into that. Let's look at the Jewish roots 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:05.759 first. The source points us to a really specific 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.040 location, Newport, Rhode Island, and Congregation 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.430 Sherith Israel. This is such a pivotal piece 00:07:11.430 --> 00:07:13.750 of American history that just it often gets glossed 00:07:13.750 --> 00:07:16.250 over in the textbooks. This congregation was 00:07:16.250 --> 00:07:19.449 officially organized in the 1650s. The 1650s. 00:07:19.449 --> 00:07:21.029 I just want to pause on that date for a second. 00:07:21.149 --> 00:07:23.910 We're talking more than a century, like 120 years 00:07:23.910 --> 00:07:26.709 before the Declaration of Independence. A long 00:07:26.709 --> 00:07:29.110 time. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson 00:07:29.110 --> 00:07:31.949 weren't even born yet. Not even close. This is 00:07:31.949 --> 00:07:34.670 the era of Oliver Cromwell in England for context. 00:07:35.029 --> 00:07:37.029 And the origin story of this community is just 00:07:37.029 --> 00:07:41.060 fascinating. These were Sephardic Jews, Jews 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:44.160 of Spanish and Portuguese descent, who were actually 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.500 fleeing persecution in Brazil. From Brazil? I 00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:48.259 didn't know that. Yeah, they'd gone to Brazil 00:07:48.259 --> 00:07:50.720 when the Dutch controlled a portion of it, because 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:52.980 the Dutch were relatively tolerant. But when 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:56.180 the Portuguese retook that territory, the Inquisition 00:07:56.180 --> 00:07:58.480 followed, and they had to run for their lives. 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:01.519 So they got on boats and sailed north to the 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.319 British colonies, seeking safety. They ended 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.360 up in places like New Amsterdam, which became 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:09.579 New York and Newport. So by the time George Washington 00:08:09.579 --> 00:08:11.839 is inaugurated as the first president of the 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.879 United States, there has been an organized, functioning, 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:17.740 multi -generational Jewish community in Rhode 00:08:17.740 --> 00:08:20.519 Island for, what, 140 years? For four or five 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:22.779 generations, at least, yes. That just completely 00:08:22.779 --> 00:08:25.240 blows the immigrant guest narrative out of the 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:27.480 water. They had been here longer than many of 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:29.660 the so -called founding fathers' own families 00:08:29.660 --> 00:08:32.120 had been. Absolutely. They weren't newcomers 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:34.240 asking for a favor. They were established residents. 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.830 And this deep presence forces the new— government 00:08:37.830 --> 00:08:40.970 to reckon with them. It's not a theoretical question 00:08:40.970 --> 00:08:43.529 of what if Jews lived here. They do live here. 00:08:43.769 --> 00:08:45.889 And this leads to that famous letter, right? 00:08:45.970 --> 00:08:48.129 The Washington letter. The letter to the Hebrew 00:08:48.129 --> 00:08:52.110 congregation at Newport, 1790. It is, in my opinion, 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:54.389 one of the top five most important documents 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:56.470 in American history. It's right up there with 00:08:56.470 --> 00:08:59.190 the Declaration and the Constitution. Washington 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:01.769 visited Newport on a tour, and the warden of 00:09:01.769 --> 00:09:04.090 the synagogue, a man named Moses Sykes, wrote 00:09:04.090 --> 00:09:06.549 him a letter welcoming him. Washington replied 00:09:06.549 --> 00:09:09.309 with this incredible text. And the famous line 00:09:09.309 --> 00:09:11.470 is that the government of the United States gives 00:09:11.470 --> 00:09:14.009 to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance. 00:09:14.409 --> 00:09:17.370 Chills every time I read it. To bigotry no sanction. 00:09:17.789 --> 00:09:19.610 But I want to understand the political mechanics 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:21.610 there. Was he just being nice? Was this just 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:23.990 a polite, you know, thank you for the warm welcome 00:09:23.990 --> 00:09:27.370 note? Right. Was this just 18th century PR? Exactly. 00:09:27.509 --> 00:09:30.769 And the answer is no. This was a radical philosophical 00:09:30.769 --> 00:09:34.529 break from 3 ,000 years of European history. 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:37.620 You have to understand, in Europe at that time, 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.600 the absolute best a minority religion could hope 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.159 for was toleration. And toleration sounds nice 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.259 to our modern ears. It sounds nice, but it's 00:09:46.259 --> 00:09:49.000 actually a hierarchy. It means I am the dominant 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:52.720 group, I hold all the power, and I, in my magnanimity, 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:55.340 will tolerate you. I will allow you to exist. 00:09:55.890 --> 00:09:58.269 But because it's an allowance, a permission I 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:01.509 grant, I can also revoke it if you get too loud 00:10:01.509 --> 00:10:03.529 or too annoying or if it becomes politically 00:10:03.529 --> 00:10:05.669 convenient for me to persecute you again. Right. 00:10:05.769 --> 00:10:08.090 It's like letting your younger brother play video 00:10:08.090 --> 00:10:09.909 games with you. You're letting him play, but 00:10:09.909 --> 00:10:12.049 it's your console, it's your house, and you can 00:10:12.049 --> 00:10:14.129 unplug his controller whenever you want. That 00:10:14.129 --> 00:10:17.450 is a perfect analogy. Washington's letter completely 00:10:17.450 --> 00:10:20.190 flipped the table on that dynamic. He wasn't 00:10:20.190 --> 00:10:22.629 offering toleration. In fact, he explicitly says 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:25.250 in the letter, it is now no more that toleration 00:10:25.250 --> 00:10:27.649 is spoken of. He was rejecting that old model. 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:30.049 He was acknowledging a natural right. A natural 00:10:30.049 --> 00:10:32.090 right. So it's inherent. It's inherent. He was 00:10:32.090 --> 00:10:34.309 saying that their religious liberty didn't come 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:36.470 from him or from the Congress or from the Protestant 00:10:36.470 --> 00:10:38.690 majority. It was endowed by their creator as 00:10:38.690 --> 00:10:40.830 part of their humanity. So he wasn't inviting 00:10:40.830 --> 00:10:42.509 them into the country. He was acknowledging that 00:10:42.509 --> 00:10:44.009 they were already home. They were co -owners 00:10:44.009 --> 00:10:46.220 of the house. That is a massive distinction. 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:49.500 It shifts the entire power dynamic. Okay, so 00:10:49.500 --> 00:10:51.720 if the Jewish history in early America is surprising 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:54.759 to some, the Muslim history that the source outlines 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.080 is. It's genuinely shocking to most people. I 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.059 think most of us date the Muslim presence in 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:02.990 America to... I don't know, immigration waves 00:11:02.990 --> 00:11:06.190 in the 1960s or 70s. Which is a complete erasure 00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:08.629 of the actual demographic reality of the founding 00:11:08.629 --> 00:11:11.549 era. It's a historical blind spot the size of 00:11:11.549 --> 00:11:13.690 a continent. The source is very, very clear on 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:16.269 this. The timeline of Islam in America begins 00:11:16.269 --> 00:11:18.830 with the slave trade. Right. And the numbers 00:11:18.830 --> 00:11:21.440 are just staggering. Mainstream academic scholarship 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.039 now estimates that somewhere between 15 and 30 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:26.179 percent of the enslaved Africans brought to this 00:11:26.179 --> 00:11:29.100 continent were from Muslim regions of West Africa. 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:30.779 Wait, I want to make sure I heard that and that 00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:34.789 you at home heard that. Not one. To 3%, 15 % 00:11:34.789 --> 00:11:38.250 to 30%. 15 % to 30%, yes. A massive demographic 00:11:38.250 --> 00:11:41.289 slice. That means that in some areas of the colonial 00:11:41.289 --> 00:11:44.389 south, Islam was likely the second most dominant 00:11:44.389 --> 00:11:46.809 religion after various forms of Christianity. 00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:49.429 Without a doubt. And we need to break down the 00:11:49.429 --> 00:11:51.929 stereotype of who these people were. The source 00:11:51.929 --> 00:11:54.830 really emphasizes that these weren't just laborers 00:11:54.830 --> 00:11:57.070 or people without culture, kind of blank slate. 00:11:57.429 --> 00:12:00.000 Many of them were Quranic scholars. They were 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.759 hafiz, which means they had memorized the entire 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:07.460 Quran, all 6 ,000 plus verses, by heart. Incredible. 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:09.659 They were literate in Arabic. They were highly 00:12:09.659 --> 00:12:12.200 educated intellectuals, theologians, jurists 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.700 who were captured in wars or kidnapped, stripped 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:16.840 of their freedom, and brought to a land where 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:18.639 they had to try and maintain their faith under 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:20.779 conditions of the most extreme repression imaginable. 00:12:20.860 --> 00:12:22.799 The source mentions a few specific figures that 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:24.600 I feel like should be household names in America. 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:28.539 Omar ibn Said. Omar Ibn Said is a monumental 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:31.460 figure in American religious history. He was 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:33.779 a Fula Islamic scholar from a region that's now 00:12:33.779 --> 00:12:36.639 part of modern -day Senegal. He was enslaved 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.080 in his late 30s, already a deeply educated man, 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.840 and brought to North Carolina. But here's the 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.000 incredible part. In his old age, he left behind 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.059 an autobiography written in his own hand in beautiful, 00:12:48.259 --> 00:12:51.620 classical Arabic. An autobiography in Arabic 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.759 from an enslaved man in the 1830s. Think about 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:56.840 the significance of that artifact. We have a 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.879 primary source document written in the language 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.120 of his longest scholarship by an enslaved man 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.700 in the antebellum South articulating his life, 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.200 his theology, his sorrow. It's one of the most 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:07.899 important documents we have. That completely 00:13:07.899 --> 00:13:10.879 destroys the racist paternalistic idea that African 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:13.720 slaves were blank slates just waiting to be civilized 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.399 by their masters. It shatters it. And he wasn't 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:18.779 just writing his autobiography. The story goes 00:13:18.779 --> 00:13:21.059 that when he was first captured and sold, he 00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:23.950 ran away and was found in a jail cell. And he 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:25.809 had been writing verses of the Quran on the walls 00:13:25.809 --> 00:13:28.750 of his cell in charcoal. His existence proves 00:13:28.750 --> 00:13:32.169 that Islam is not foreign to American soil. It 00:13:32.169 --> 00:13:35.250 is in the soil. It was here, in the minds and 00:13:35.250 --> 00:13:37.590 hearts of the people who literally built the 00:13:37.590 --> 00:13:39.730 economy of the early United States with their 00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:41.909 forced labor. And there was another one mentioned, 00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:45.730 even earlier, Estevanico. Right, Mustafa Zamori, 00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:48.730 who is known to the Spanish as Estevanico. He 00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:50.870 was a Moroccan Muslim. He was enslaved by Spanish 00:13:50.870 --> 00:13:54.049 conquistadors in the early 1500s. But he became 00:13:54.049 --> 00:13:56.190 one of the first Africans, one of the first non 00:13:56.190 --> 00:13:58.649 -Indigenous people, period, to explore the North 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:01.309 American continent. In the 1500s. In the 1520s 00:14:01.309 --> 00:14:03.830 and 1530s. He was traversing the American Southwest, 00:14:04.169 --> 00:14:06.830 what is now New Mexico and Arizona, decades before 00:14:06.830 --> 00:14:08.669 the English settlement at Jamestown was even 00:14:08.669 --> 00:14:11.289 a thought. So a Muslim man was exploring the 00:14:11.289 --> 00:14:13.850 American frontier before the pilgrims even landed 00:14:13.850 --> 00:14:16.529 at Plymouth Rock. Correct. He is a constitutive 00:14:16.529 --> 00:14:19.210 threat. And this presence continues right into 00:14:19.210 --> 00:14:21.649 the Revolutionary War. If you go through the 00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:24.669 muster rolls, the official military lists of 00:14:24.669 --> 00:14:27.389 the Continental Army, you find names like Bambit 00:14:27.389 --> 00:14:30.809 Mohammed and Yusuf bin Ali. So men with Muslim 00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:33.450 names fighting for American independence. Fighting 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:36.090 and dying. for the cause of American independence. 00:14:36.549 --> 00:14:39.230 It really reframes the whole picture. It isn't 00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:40.970 just European Christians fighting the British. 00:14:41.090 --> 00:14:44.950 It is this much more complex, much more diverse 00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:47.830 coalition of people from the very, very beginning. 00:14:48.110 --> 00:14:51.210 And this brings us to Thomas Jefferson, a complicated 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:53.710 figure to say the least, but one who was thinking 00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:56.370 about these issues. We know he owned a Koran. 00:14:56.509 --> 00:14:59.470 He did. He bought a copy as a young law student 00:14:59.470 --> 00:15:02.120 in Williamsburg. And it wasn't a souvenir or 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.639 a curiosity. Jefferson was a student of the Enlightenment. 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:07.159 He was interested in comparative law, comparative 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.460 religion. He bought it to understand Islamic 00:15:09.460 --> 00:15:12.019 law or Sharia because he wanted to understand 00:15:12.019 --> 00:15:14.299 how other societies structured themselves. And 00:15:14.299 --> 00:15:17.240 that study, it influenced his politics. Deeply. 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.480 When the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.860 was being debated, which is really the precursor 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:24.700 to the First Amendment's religion clauses, Jefferson 00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:27.159 argued explicitly that its protection should 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:29.940 extend to everyone. He listed them out in his 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:31.960 autobiography when he was describing the fight 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.419 to get it passed. He said the law was meant to 00:15:34.419 --> 00:15:36.580 comprehend within the mantle of its protection 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:39.960 the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.840 the Hindu and infidel of every denomination. 00:15:43.689 --> 00:15:46.370 Mohammedan being the 18th century term for Muslim. 00:15:46.529 --> 00:15:49.409 So he's naming them. He's saying Muslims belong 00:15:49.409 --> 00:15:51.909 under this protection. He's saying everyone belongs. 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:54.509 But here's the catch. And this is a really important 00:15:54.509 --> 00:15:57.250 and sobering nuance the source brings up. That 00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:00.309 specific, incredibly inclusive listing of religions, 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.090 it was removed from the final text of the statute. 00:16:03.389 --> 00:16:06.210 So they cut it. They took out the specific protections. 00:16:06.529 --> 00:16:08.629 They kept the broad principle of religious freedom. 00:16:09.049 --> 00:16:11.250 But they cut the specific list because it was 00:16:11.250 --> 00:16:12.909 too controversial for the Virginia legislature 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:15.830 at the time. There were people, like Patrick 00:16:15.830 --> 00:16:18.230 Henry, who wanted to maintain a kind of soft 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:21.389 establishment of Christianity. And that is the 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:24.169 key takeaway here for our deep dive. The source 00:16:24.169 --> 00:16:27.009 argues this proves that American pluralism was 00:16:27.009 --> 00:16:30.149 always aspirational. Aspirational, not actual. 00:16:30.370 --> 00:16:32.879 Exactly. The intent was there at the founding. 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:35.879 Jefferson wanted it. Madison wanted it. But the 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.320 fact that that language was amended shows it 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.940 was never. Settled. It was never a done deal. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.700 We have been fighting about who belongs, about 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:46.039 the scope of that protection since day one. So 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.000 what here? The big conclusion for this section 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.840 is that the 250th anniversary in 2026 isn't about 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.299 inviting Jews and Muslims to the American table 00:16:55.299 --> 00:16:58.059 for the first time. It's about finally fully 00:16:58.059 --> 00:17:00.440 recognizing that they helped build the table. 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:02.700 You cannot tell the story of America accurately 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:04.859 without them. They're not an asterisk. They're 00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:06.940 a chapter. OK, so that's the history. We were 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:09.440 always here. But just being here, you know, just 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:11.660 having different groups living on the same plot 00:17:11.660 --> 00:17:14.059 of land, that doesn't automatically mean everything 00:17:14.059 --> 00:17:17.539 is working. Which brings us to section two of 00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:20.599 our outline, the architecture of pluralism versus 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:23.599 diversity. This is such a crucial intellectual 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.400 distinction. And the source here relies heavily 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.279 on the work of Diana Eck, a scholar from Harvard 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.440 who founded the Pluralism Project. She makes 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:35.259 a very simple but profound point. Diversity is 00:17:35.259 --> 00:17:38.410 a fact. Pluralism is an achievement. That sounds 00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:39.970 like a great bumper sticker, but let's break 00:17:39.970 --> 00:17:42.109 it down. What is the actual practical difference 00:17:42.109 --> 00:17:44.589 between those two words? Okay, so diversity is 00:17:44.589 --> 00:17:47.829 just demographics. It's the census data. It means 00:17:47.829 --> 00:17:49.190 you have different kinds of people living in 00:17:49.190 --> 00:17:51.589 close proximity to each other. Baghdad in the 00:17:51.589 --> 00:17:53.890 9th century, at the height of the Abbasid Caliphate, 00:17:53.890 --> 00:17:56.869 was incredibly diverse. The Ottoman Empire was 00:17:56.869 --> 00:17:59.470 diverse. The Antebellum South, tragically, was 00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:01.849 diverse. But none of those were pluralist in 00:18:01.849 --> 00:18:04.000 the modern democratic sense. Because there was 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.140 a clear hierarchy. There was a dominant group 00:18:06.140 --> 00:18:10.140 and then everyone else. Exactly. Diversity can 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.779 exist with rigid segregation. Diversity can exist 00:18:13.779 --> 00:18:16.279 with oppression. Diversity can exist with violence. 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.640 Pluralism is what happens when you take that 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.259 fact of diversity and you build something with 00:18:22.259 --> 00:18:25.539 it. You build a society where people from different 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:27.779 backgrounds actually engage with one another 00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:30.019 constructively. where they are committed to each 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:32.779 other's dignity and participate in a shared society 00:18:32.779 --> 00:18:35.920 as equals. So diversity is the raw material and 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.779 pluralism is the finished product. That's a great 00:18:38.779 --> 00:18:40.880 way to put it. And as another scholar in this 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:44.259 field, Ibu Patel often says, pluralism is not 00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:45.980 a birthright. It doesn't just happen because 00:18:45.980 --> 00:18:47.940 you have different neighbors. It is a responsibility. 00:18:48.099 --> 00:18:49.819 You have to build it and you have to maintain 00:18:49.819 --> 00:18:52.460 it. It's like a garden. If you don't tend to 00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:54.799 it, the weeds of prejudice and hatred will take 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.480 over. So if pluralism is a construction project, 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.579 how is America's building looking after 250 years? 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.720 It's a mixed bag. Structurally, it's a bit of 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.500 a mess, honestly. On the good side, the blueprint 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.839 is brilliant. You have the First Amendment, free 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.059 exercise, and the non -establishment clause. 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.339 We have to stop and acknowledge how radical that 00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:18.400 is. No other nation in human history has attempted 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.660 to have this much diversity with this much religious 00:19:20.660 --> 00:19:24.049 freedom. for this long. It is structurally a 00:19:24.049 --> 00:19:26.230 miracle that it has worked as well as it has. 00:19:26.410 --> 00:19:28.470 But then there's the bad, the long history of 00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:31.029 failures in the architecture. Right. The source 00:19:31.029 --> 00:19:33.390 points to what it calls the contested architecture. 00:19:33.710 --> 00:19:35.970 We have a blueprint for a beautiful building, 00:19:36.089 --> 00:19:38.589 but we have a history of failing at pluralism 00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.460 repeatedly, often violently. You look at the 00:19:41.460 --> 00:19:43.880 nativist riots of the 1840s in Philadelphia, 00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:46.779 mobs of Protestant citizens burning down Catholic 00:19:46.779 --> 00:19:49.119 churches and convents because they believed Catholics 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:51.500 couldn't be real Americans, that they were loyal 00:19:51.500 --> 00:19:53.819 to a foreign power, the Pope. And that same logic 00:19:53.819 --> 00:19:56.680 gets used again and again. Again and again. We 00:19:56.680 --> 00:19:59.180 have the history of institutional anti -Semitism. 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.500 In the 1920s and 30s, elite universities like 00:20:02.500 --> 00:20:04.859 Harvard and Yale actually had official quotas 00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:07.140 on how many Jews could attend. There were housing 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:09.039 covenants in neighborhoods all across America 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.359 saying you couldn't sell a house to a Jewish 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.779 family. This was structural. This was policy. 00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:16.779 And then most recently in our memory, post 9 00:20:16.779 --> 00:20:19.259 -11. Right. After September 11, 2001, we saw 00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:21.079 that architecture of exclusion turned against 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.339 Muslims. You had surveillance programs with the 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:25.819 NYPD that specifically targeted Muslim neighborhoods, 00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:30.549 mosques, student groups. exclusion, the constant 00:20:30.549 --> 00:20:32.829 media portrayal of every Muslim as a potential 00:20:32.829 --> 00:20:35.470 suspect, the feeling that you had to constantly 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:37.849 prove your loyalty. And the source argues we 00:20:37.849 --> 00:20:40.049 are in another one of those dark moments right 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:42.130 now. It cites some really terrifying numbers 00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:45.250 from the period following October 7, 2023. The 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:48.380 numbers are staggering. And they show the system 00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:50.799 is flashing red. The ADL, the Anti -Defamation 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.740 League, they do an annual audit of anti -Semitic 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:56.299 incidents. Their 2024 audit recorded 9 ,354 separate 00:20:56.299 --> 00:21:00.559 anti -Semitic incidents in the U .S. 9 ,354. 00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.440 That is an all -time high since they began tracking 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.299 in the 1970s. And notably, that includes an 84 00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:10.980 % increase on college campuses. 84 %? I mean... 00:21:11.420 --> 00:21:13.839 That means if you were a Jewish student, your 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.559 environment, your sense of safety fundamentally 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:19.680 changed almost overnight. It did. The entire 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.960 atmosphere shifted. And at the same time, KRR, 00:21:23.140 --> 00:21:25.500 the Council on American Islamic Relations, reported 00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:28.819 a parallel and equally terrifying escalation 00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:31.680 in anti -Muslim incidents. Reports of discrimination, 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.400 bullying of children in schools, hate crimes 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:37.319 like the stabbing of a six -year -old Palestinian 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:39.759 American boy in Illinois. It's just horrifying. 00:21:40.140 --> 00:21:41.940 It is. And the expert insight from the source 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:43.960 material here is absolutely vital for everyone 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:45.980 to understand. These are not two separate problems. 00:21:46.059 --> 00:21:48.339 That's hard because they feel like separate problems 00:21:48.339 --> 00:21:50.119 when you watch the news. It feels like side A 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:52.859 versus side B. It's framed as a conflict. That 00:21:52.859 --> 00:21:56.460 is the trap. And it's a dangerous one. The source 00:21:56.460 --> 00:21:59.200 argues that these are two faces of the same single 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.079 failure. When the immune system of pluralism 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:05.079 breaks down. When we stop seeing our neighbors 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.500 as individuals holding natural rights and start 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.740 seeing them as symbols of a political conflict 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:12.619 or as threats, Jews and Muslims are both the 00:22:12.619 --> 00:22:14.859 first to get sick. The canaries in the coal mine. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.039 They are the first targets. They're often the 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:18.839 minority groups that carry the most distinct 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:21.319 markers of difference, whether it's Yarmulke 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.599 or hijab. So a rise in hate against one is almost 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:26.700 always a predictor of a rise in hate against 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:29.329 the other. They are structurally linked. Which 00:22:29.329 --> 00:22:31.809 brings us to what is probably the most difficult 00:22:31.809 --> 00:22:34.450 part of this conversation. Section three, the 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:37.950 crucible. October 7th and the failure of dialogue. 00:22:38.230 --> 00:22:39.970 This is where the rubber meets the road. This 00:22:39.970 --> 00:22:42.170 is the stress test in action. The source describes 00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:44.730 the aftermath of the October 7th attacks and 00:22:44.730 --> 00:22:47.009 the devastating war in Gaza that followed as 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:49.990 a shattering. And specifically, it shattered 00:22:49.990 --> 00:22:52.250 the assumptions of the American interfaith movement. 00:22:52.549 --> 00:22:56.089 Yes. For about 20 years prior. really since 9 00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:58.829 -11. There had been a growing and, you know, 00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:01.390 many ways, very positive interfaith movement 00:23:01.390 --> 00:23:03.630 in the U .S. A lot of good people doing what 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:05.609 they thought was good work. But the source critiques 00:23:05.609 --> 00:23:07.930 it as having been a fair weather friendship. 00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:11.329 That is a harsh assessment. What did that fair 00:23:11.329 --> 00:23:13.470 weather friendship look like in practice? It 00:23:13.470 --> 00:23:16.829 was polite. It was civil. It was often centered 00:23:16.829 --> 00:23:20.289 on the least controversial things, food and festivals. 00:23:20.970 --> 00:23:22.829 I'll come to your Iftar dinner during Ramadan. 00:23:22.990 --> 00:23:25.069 You come to my Seder dinner during Passover. 00:23:25.509 --> 00:23:28.150 I'll eat your samosas. You eat my latkes. And 00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:29.849 we'll talk about how we all want peace and we 00:23:29.849 --> 00:23:31.869 all love our children. Which is nice. I mean, 00:23:31.890 --> 00:23:33.710 it's not bad. It's not bad. It's better than 00:23:33.710 --> 00:23:36.190 nothing. But the source argues it was brittle. 00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:39.089 It relied on actively avoiding the hard stuff. 00:23:39.309 --> 00:23:42.230 It built a relationship by carefully avoiding 00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:45.049 the one thing that everyone knew was the source 00:23:45.049 --> 00:23:47.880 of potential conflict. The political situation 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.180 in the Middle East. It was the elephant in the 00:23:50.180 --> 00:23:52.279 room that everyone pretended not to see. So when 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.200 the war started, when that elephant went on a 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.019 rampage, that avoidance wasn't possible anymore. 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:01.640 Exactly. When October 7th happened, when real 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.839 visceral grief and political anger and historical 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.579 trauma just exploded into the open, those polite 00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:11.000 relationships couldn't hold the weight. They 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.690 hadn't built the muscle for disagreement. The 00:24:13.690 --> 00:24:15.650 source mentions that so many of these interfaith 00:24:15.650 --> 00:24:17.430 partner, people who had been meeting for years, 00:24:17.609 --> 00:24:20.029 just stopped talking to each other. There was 00:24:20.029 --> 00:24:22.349 silence. Because they didn't have the tools, 00:24:22.430 --> 00:24:24.549 they didn't have the language to handle the raw 00:24:24.549 --> 00:24:27.029 emotion. There's a line in the article that just 00:24:27.029 --> 00:24:29.710 floored me. It says, if a relationship can't 00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:32.309 survive honest disagreement, it was never a relationship. 00:24:32.509 --> 00:24:35.529 It was just proximity. That is the core truth 00:24:35.529 --> 00:24:38.549 of this entire deep dive. Proximity isn't enough. 00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:40.660 Standing next to someone in line at Starbucks 00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:42.220 doesn't mean you have a relationship that can 00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:45.140 survive a war or even a heated political argument. 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.000 It just means you both want coffee. So the source 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.000 argues we need a pivot, a totally new model of 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.299 engagement. We have to move away from prioritizing 00:24:53.299 --> 00:24:56.279 politeness and toward holding space for disagreement. 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:57.980 And this is where it gets really interesting 00:24:57.980 --> 00:25:00.279 because they suggest we can find the models for 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.839 this within the traditions themselves. They use 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:04.960 some specific terminology, right? From Islam 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.980 and Judaism. Yes. From the Islamic tradition, 00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:10.640 they use the term Majlis. A Majlis literally 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:13.960 means a sitting, a gathering. But culturally, 00:25:14.180 --> 00:25:17.019 it implies a serious discussion, a place where 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:19.380 weighty matters are hashed out by the community. 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.400 It's not a casual chat. It's a space for deep, 00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:25.980 sometimes difficult, conversation. And from the 00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:31.460 Jewish tradition, the concept is, Did I say that 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:36.299 right? It did. It translates literally to argument 00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:38.539 for the sake of heaven. That sounds like a contradiction. 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:40.480 How is arguing for heaven? That sounds like the 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.640 opposite. It's a foundational concept from the 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:44.799 Mishnah and the Talmud, the core texts of rabbinic 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.960 Judaism. The rabbis disagree on almost everything, 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.599 vehemently. They argue, they shout, they dissect 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.359 every word of the law. But they don't stop being 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.740 part of the same community. The argument itself 00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:58.380 is considered a form of worship, a form of collectively 00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:01.099 grappling to find God's will. So the goal isn't 00:26:01.099 --> 00:26:04.039 to win. The goal isn't to destroy your opponent 00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.420 or prove you're smarter. The goal is to grapple 00:26:07.420 --> 00:26:10.940 together in good faith to find the truth or at 00:26:10.940 --> 00:26:12.940 least a better path forward for the community. 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.059 If you and I argue just to prove who's right, 00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.099 that's an argument for the sake of ego. If we 00:26:19.099 --> 00:26:21.420 argue because we both care deeply about an issue 00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:23.660 and want to find the best solution. That's an 00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:25.730 argument for the sake of heaven. And the author 00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:28.410 gives a real -world example of this pivot in 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:31.349 action. Iqbal Akhtar himself, the author of the 00:26:31.349 --> 00:26:33.769 piece, and a local rabbi named Jamie Akhlepi, 00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:36.930 they founded an organization called Miami Interfaith 00:26:36.930 --> 00:26:39.670 immediately after the attacks. Right in the heat 00:26:39.670 --> 00:26:42.849 of it. In October 2023, when everyone else was 00:26:42.849 --> 00:26:44.710 retreating to their corners, putting up walls, 00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:47.230 they made the conscious choice to step toward 00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:49.230 each other. And they didn't do it to issue a 00:26:49.230 --> 00:26:51.150 joint statement saying, we agree on everything. 00:26:51.410 --> 00:26:52.930 Right. They weren't trying to solve the Middle 00:26:52.930 --> 00:26:56.170 East from Miami. Not at all. They did it to sit 00:26:56.170 --> 00:26:59.089 together in the mess, to create a space where 00:26:59.089 --> 00:27:01.589 Jews could mourn their dead and Muslims could 00:27:01.589 --> 00:27:04.049 mourn theirs, to hold the grief of the other 00:27:04.049 --> 00:27:06.210 side without having to validate the politics 00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:08.990 of the other side. That's a very difficult, very 00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:11.269 adult thing to do. And this leads to a really 00:27:11.269 --> 00:27:13.250 hard truth for the listener. And I want everyone 00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:15.410 to really hear this because it completely changes 00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:17.829 the goalposts of what we're trying to achieve 00:27:17.829 --> 00:27:21.009 here. The source says the goal is not to agree 00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:24.390 on Middle East politics. We may never agree on 00:27:24.390 --> 00:27:27.130 that. And that have to be OK. The narratives 00:27:27.130 --> 00:27:29.529 are so divergent. The pain is so deep. The history 00:27:29.529 --> 00:27:32.089 is so contested. If the prerequisite for being 00:27:32.089 --> 00:27:34.470 good neighbors in America is that we first have 00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:36.289 to agree on the borders and history of the Middle 00:27:36.289 --> 00:27:38.809 East, we are finished. The American experiment 00:27:38.809 --> 00:27:41.009 will fail. We will never make it. So if that's 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:43.750 not the goal, what is? The goal is solidarity 00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:46.930 in the American public square. It is committing 00:27:46.930 --> 00:27:49.630 to each other's dignity and safety here, regardless 00:27:49.630 --> 00:27:52.269 of what happens there. It is the ability to say, 00:27:52.390 --> 00:27:54.630 I might completely disagree with your view on 00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:57.589 the war. I might find your political stance abhorrent, 00:27:57.710 --> 00:28:00.210 but I will fight to the death for your right 00:28:00.210 --> 00:28:02.750 to be safe in this country, to pray in your synagogue 00:28:02.750 --> 00:28:05.269 or mosque without fear, to send your kids to 00:28:05.269 --> 00:28:07.849 school without them being bullied. That is a 00:28:07.849 --> 00:28:10.450 much higher bar than just being nice over some 00:28:10.450 --> 00:28:14.200 hummus. It is. It is a rugged pluralism. It requires 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.279 a very thick skin and a surprisingly soft heart 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.740 at the same time. So where do we find the strength 00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:22.240 to do that? Because honestly, that sounds exhausting. 00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:24.740 Usually people blame religion for this conflict. 00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:26.460 They say, if we just got rid of the God stuff, 00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:28.759 we'd all get along just fine. But section four 00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:30.980 of our outline argues the exact opposite. It 00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:33.339 says the solutions are actually hidden deep in 00:28:33.339 --> 00:28:35.940 the theology of both faiths. This is the secret 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:38.460 weapon part of the deep dive. And it's the most 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:41.490 counterintuitive part. We tend to think of religion 00:28:41.490 --> 00:28:43.910 as the source of the division, my God versus 00:28:43.910 --> 00:28:47.450 your God. But Akhtar argues that if you actually 00:28:47.450 --> 00:28:50.670 read the foundational texts, the Quran and the 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:53.009 Jewish scriptures, they provide the roadmap, 00:28:53.150 --> 00:28:55.509 the actual software, for building this interconnected 00:28:55.509 --> 00:28:58.029 future. Let's start with the Muslim perspective. 00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:00.829 There's a verse from the Quran that the source 00:29:00.829 --> 00:29:04.210 highlights. So to 49, verse 13. It's a very famous 00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:07.259 verse. All mankind, indeed, we have created you 00:29:07.259 --> 00:29:09.619 from male and female and made you peoples and 00:29:09.619 --> 00:29:11.759 tribes that you may know one another. Know one 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:13.960 another. That sounds simple enough. But the Arabic 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.960 verb that's used here is litā 'ārafu. And as 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.079 with so many things in Arabic, the root implies 00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:21.099 so much more than the simple English translation. 00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:24.599 It isn't just shaking hands or recognizing a 00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:27.720 face. It implies a deep, mutual recognition, 00:29:28.059 --> 00:29:31.220 a knowing that transforms you. The theology here 00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:33.500 is profound. The Quran is saying that God created 00:29:33.500 --> 00:29:36.240 diversity on purpose. It wasn't a mistake. God 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:38.720 could have made everyone the same. Right. And 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.900 another verse, Surah 5, verse 48, explicitly 00:29:40.900 --> 00:29:43.619 says that. Had God willed, he could have made 00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:46.559 you one single community. But he didn't. He made 00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.240 us different to test you in what he has given 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.960 you. So diversity is a test, a divine pop quiz. 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.279 It is a test. It's a divine setup. And what is 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:57.960 the correct answer to the test? The verse continues. 00:29:58.569 --> 00:30:00.630 So compete with one another in good works. I 00:30:00.630 --> 00:30:03.390 love that framing. A race to righteousness. Not 00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:06.730 a race to conquer or convert, but a race to see 00:30:06.730 --> 00:30:08.890 who can do the most good in the world. Exactly. 00:30:09.009 --> 00:30:11.970 It completely reframes the other. My religious 00:30:11.970 --> 00:30:14.390 neighbor is not my enemy. They are my competitor 00:30:14.390 --> 00:30:17.210 in goodness. If my Jewish neighbor is building 00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:19.750 a homeless shelter, my response as a Muslim shouldn't 00:30:19.750 --> 00:30:21.970 be to stop him. It should be to try and build 00:30:21.970 --> 00:30:24.369 a better, bigger homeless shelter right next 00:30:24.369 --> 00:30:27.240 to his. That's the competition God wants. That's 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.500 a powerful idea. And what about the Jewish perspective? 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:31.980 What are the theological tools there? Well, it 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:33.839 starts with the most fundamental concept in the 00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.579 entire Torah, Beslem Elohim. Every single human 00:30:37.579 --> 00:30:40.259 being is created in the image of God, not just 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:44.500 Jews, everyone. If you truly deeply believe that, 00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:47.099 you cannot dehumanize your neighbor, no matter 00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:49.980 how much you disagree with them. To harm a human 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:52.460 being is to deface the very image of God in the 00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:54.299 world. And then there's that famous line from 00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:56.359 the Mishnah about saving a life. Right, from 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:58.859 Tractate Sanhedrin. Whoever destroys a single 00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:01.660 life, it is as if he's destroyed an entire world. 00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:04.500 And whoever saves a single life, it is as if 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.490 he has saved an entire world. It emphasizes the 00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:10.390 infinite cosmic value of the individual. But 00:31:10.390 --> 00:31:12.490 I think the most powerful theological tool for 00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:14.869 this specific challenge comes from the late great 00:31:14.869 --> 00:31:17.269 Rabbi Jonathan Sachs. He wrote a seminal book 00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:19.210 called The Dignity of Difference. Great title. 00:31:19.289 --> 00:31:22.269 Very direct. And his argument was revolutionary. 00:31:23.069 --> 00:31:25.789 He said that in the Abrahamic tradition, God 00:31:25.789 --> 00:31:28.410 makes a particular covenant with a specific people. 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:31.640 the Jews. But that particular covenant does not 00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:34.180 negate God's universal care for all other peoples. 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:36.940 God is the God of all humanity, but he relates 00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:40.400 to us in our particularity. So, I can be fully 00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.519 and unapologetically Jewish, and you can be fully 00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.500 and unapologetically Muslim, and we can both 00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:47.859 be loved by God and part of God's plan. My truth 00:31:47.859 --> 00:31:50.660 doesn't require your falsity. That is the dignity 00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:53.119 of difference. It completely solves the zero 00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:55.839 -sum game of my religion is right, so yours must 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.519 be wrong. Yes. And this all leads to the practical 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:00.960 concept of interconnected futures. This isn't 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:02.940 just abstract theology. It becomes a political 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:05.460 and social strategy. And the source quotes Jonathan 00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:08.119 Greenblatt, the CEO of the ADL, to illustrate 00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:10.900 this. This was back in 2016. Right. This was 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:12.720 during the presidential campaign. And there was 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:14.880 a lot of political rhetoric at the time about 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.089 creating a Muslim registry. forcing Muslim citizens 00:32:18.089 --> 00:32:20.670 to register with the government. And Greenblatt, 00:32:20.750 --> 00:32:22.470 the head of the largest and oldest organization 00:32:22.470 --> 00:32:25.690 fighting anti -Semitism in America, stood up 00:32:25.690 --> 00:32:36.990 and said, and I'm quoting, Wow. That's a powerful 00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:39.670 statement of solidarity. It's the ultimate statement. 00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:42.130 Now, obviously, the political landscape has become 00:32:42.130 --> 00:32:44.410 much more complicated and fraught since 2016. 00:32:44.549 --> 00:32:46.670 And there are very real tensions between these 00:32:46.670 --> 00:32:49.210 groups and organizations now. But the principle 00:32:49.210 --> 00:32:51.410 of that statement holds. It is the realization 00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:53.950 that a threat to one is a threat to the other. 00:32:54.269 --> 00:32:56.730 If you allow the government to target one religious 00:32:56.730 --> 00:32:59.309 minority, you have destroyed the constitutional 00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:01.529 protection for all of them. It's that idea again. 00:33:01.569 --> 00:33:03.849 Our fates are structurally linked. You can't 00:33:03.849 --> 00:33:06.190 actually be safe if your neighbor isn't safe. 00:33:06.470 --> 00:33:09.269 Precisely. Your safety is dependent on mine and 00:33:09.269 --> 00:33:11.589 mine on yours, whether we like it or not. OK, 00:33:11.690 --> 00:33:13.829 so we have the corrected history. We have the 00:33:13.829 --> 00:33:16.529 diagnosis of the crisis and we have the theological 00:33:16.529 --> 00:33:20.009 resources. Now we need the action plan. We're 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:23.490 hitting July 2026. What do we actually do? The 00:33:23.490 --> 00:33:25.789 source gives us a very practical to -do list 00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:28.390 for America at 250. And it is a practical list. 00:33:28.470 --> 00:33:30.369 It's not just wishful thinking. It's about moving 00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.609 from nostalgia to actual work. Commitment number 00:33:33.609 --> 00:33:36.490 one, from dialogue to shared practice. This is 00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:39.319 a big one. Stop just talking. do things together. 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:41.819 The source specifically suggests joint study 00:33:41.819 --> 00:33:44.440 of sacred texts. Like actually sitting in a room 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:46.900 and reading the Torah and the Quran side by side. 00:33:46.940 --> 00:33:49.559 Yes. And not in a debating society kind of way 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:51.079 where you're trying to prove your book is better. 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.859 Akhtar calls this creating intellectual intimacy. 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.799 When you sit down and you seriously study someone 00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:59.539 else's holy text with them, not to convert or 00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:01.900 be converted, but to understand how they see 00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:04.910 the world, what their deepest values are. It 00:34:04.910 --> 00:34:06.809 builds a bond that is much stronger than just 00:34:06.809 --> 00:34:09.150 eating falafel together. You see their values. 00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:11.210 You see their struggles. You see that they are 00:34:11.210 --> 00:34:13.050 wrestling with God and with meaning just like 00:34:13.050 --> 00:34:15.309 you are. That sounds incredibly challenging, 00:34:15.349 --> 00:34:18.210 but also incredibly powerful. OK, commitment 00:34:18.210 --> 00:34:21.289 number two, invest in the next generation. This 00:34:21.289 --> 00:34:23.389 is absolutely critical. The college campuses 00:34:23.389 --> 00:34:25.130 are where the heat is right now. They are the 00:34:25.130 --> 00:34:27.789 epicenters of the conflict. But the source points 00:34:27.789 --> 00:34:30.449 out that they are also where the hope is. The 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:33.250 Interfaith America Leadership Summit. In 2025, 00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:36.849 it says, had its largest attendance ever. So 00:34:36.849 --> 00:34:39.530 despite all the news stories we see about campus 00:34:39.530 --> 00:34:41.969 chaos and division, students are actually showing 00:34:41.969 --> 00:34:44.389 up for this work. They are. Young people are 00:34:44.389 --> 00:34:47.530 hungry for a better way. The force says students 00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:49.730 are proving that interfaith friendship is both 00:34:49.730 --> 00:34:53.130 commonplace and extraordinary. But they need 00:34:53.130 --> 00:34:55.570 support. They need funding. They need mentorship. 00:34:55.750 --> 00:34:58.010 You can't just expect a bunch of 19 -year -olds 00:34:58.010 --> 00:34:59.590 to figure this out on their own while the entire 00:34:59.590 --> 00:35:01.230 world is shouting at them through their phones. 00:35:01.309 --> 00:35:03.590 We have to invest in the programs that teach 00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:06.750 them how to have these difficult arguments for 00:35:06.750 --> 00:35:08.730 the sake of heaven. Commitment number three, 00:35:08.889 --> 00:35:12.010 develop a shared narrative. This goes right back 00:35:12.010 --> 00:35:14.170 to the history section we started with. We need 00:35:14.170 --> 00:35:17.170 to stop telling the Jewish story of America and 00:35:17.170 --> 00:35:19.789 the Muslim story of America as if they're two 00:35:19.789 --> 00:35:21.690 separate books on the shelf. Because they're 00:35:21.690 --> 00:35:23.849 not. They're chapters in the same book. It's 00:35:23.849 --> 00:35:26.349 a braided narrative. The story is about the colonial 00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:29.349 Jewish congregations and the enslaved West African 00:35:29.349 --> 00:35:32.269 Muslims. It's about the civil rights coalitions 00:35:32.269 --> 00:35:35.150 where rabbis and imams march together with Dr. 00:35:35.309 --> 00:35:38.489 King. It's about the post -9 -11 solidarity where 00:35:38.489 --> 00:35:41.449 Jewish communities protected mosques from vandalism. 00:35:41.590 --> 00:35:44.369 We need to tell that story as one single stream. 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.059 Because when you tell the story together, you 00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:49.280 create a sense of shared ownership of the country. 00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:52.179 If I know that your ancestors helped build this 00:35:52.179 --> 00:35:54.739 place alongside mine, I can't look at you as 00:35:54.739 --> 00:35:57.260 an outsider or a foreigner. And finally, commitment 00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:00.460 number four, build stormproof structures. This 00:36:00.460 --> 00:36:03.980 is the ultimate lesson from October 7th. Don't 00:36:03.980 --> 00:36:06.280 wait for the crisis to start building the relationship. 00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:08.500 That's like trying to build a lifeboat in the 00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:11.449 middle of a tsunami. You have to build the institutions 00:36:11.449 --> 00:36:14.429 now that expect the crisis. You need to design 00:36:14.429 --> 00:36:16.730 your community organizations, your interfaith 00:36:16.730 --> 00:36:19.309 councils, your campus groups, so that they can 00:36:19.309 --> 00:36:22.670 handle anger and disagreement and grief without 00:36:22.670 --> 00:36:25.190 collapsing. It's like building a house in a hurricane 00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:28.130 zone. You don't build it for the 300 sunny days 00:36:28.130 --> 00:36:30.630 a year. You build it for the Category 5 storm 00:36:30.630 --> 00:36:32.730 that you know is coming eventually. Exactly, 00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:35.300 because the storms will come. That is the nature 00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:37.820 of a diverse democracy. If you build a structure 00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:39.880 that only works when everyone is happy and in 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:42.920 agreement, it's fundamentally useless. This brings 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.320 us to the end, and the source leaves us with 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.400 a really powerful full -circle image. It brings 00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.539 us right back to George Washington's letter to 00:36:50.539 --> 00:36:53.340 the congregation in Newport. He closes that letter 00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:55.400 by quoting the prophet Micah from the Hebrew 00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:58.599 Bible. He offers a vision of the America he hopes 00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:01.239 to build. He writes that in this new nation, 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:04.320 everyone shall sit in safety under his own vine 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.559 and fig tree, and there shall be none to make 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.159 him afraid. None to make him afraid. And that's 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:11.380 the dream of America, isn't it? Freedom from 00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:14.119 fear. It is. It's the ultimate promise. And the 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:16.260 source points out that this vision of safety 00:37:16.260 --> 00:37:19.440 and peace of salam, which means wholeness in 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.239 Arabic, is just as central to the Quran. It is 00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:25.670 the shared dream. of the children of Abraham. 00:37:25.849 --> 00:37:28.309 So to summarize the entire argument of this deep 00:37:28.309 --> 00:37:31.489 dive, Jews and Muslims are not guests in America. 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:34.239 They are co -inheritors of the Abrahamic tradition 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.699 and co -stakeholders in the American project. 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:39.639 Their futures here are structurally linked. If 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.380 one goes down, the other goes down. And if they 00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:43.480 can figure out how to build a rugged commitment 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:45.860 to one another, the entire American experiment 00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:48.619 has a chance to survive and even thrive. That 00:37:48.619 --> 00:37:51.119 is the equation. That is the stress test of 2026. 00:37:51.500 --> 00:37:55.380 So as we approach July 4, 2026, here's the final 00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:57.659 provocative thought for you, the listener, to 00:37:57.659 --> 00:37:59.900 take with you. The source makes it clear that 00:37:59.900 --> 00:38:02.389 we are 250 years... into this experiment, and 00:38:02.389 --> 00:38:04.550 that beautiful vision of the vine and fig tree 00:38:04.550 --> 00:38:07.190 is still just a promise. It's not a reality for 00:38:07.190 --> 00:38:09.329 a lot of people in this country. For far too 00:38:09.329 --> 00:38:11.530 many people, it is definitely not a reality yet. 00:38:11.690 --> 00:38:14.070 They are still afraid. So the question for you 00:38:14.070 --> 00:38:18.000 is... Are you treating pluralism as a spectator 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.980 sport? Are you just watching the news, scrolling 00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:22.900 through social media and shaking your head at 00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:26.159 the division? Or are you actively building the 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:28.960 structure that keeps your neighbor safe? Because 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.119 if you're waiting for someone else to build that 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.920 vine and fig tree for you, it's not going to 00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.179 get built. It is on us. It has always been on 00:38:36.179 --> 00:38:38.119 us. Thanks for diving deep with us. We will see 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:39.360 you next time. Take care, everyone.