Hi, welcome to another episode of our FIU course
podcast, the Interface podcast. We're very honored
to have Professor Abdullah, who's joining us
here. Ibrahim, Ibrahim, I'm sorry. No problem.
Ibrahim Almarashi, who is joining us for an AI
conference that we're doing right now. And so
I'll let him introduce himself and talk a little
bit about a very, very interesting family history
that's brought him to where he's at today. Yeah,
so I'm Ibrahim Almarashi. I teach history in
San Diego. And currently I'm based, I also teach
in Madrid and occasionally teach courses in Rome.
Milan, and I'm going to be teaching a class called
The Problem of God in Florence. But otherwise,
in terms of my family history, it's a National
Geographic documentary. The easy answer where
both my sides of the family have origins from
is in Negev. But one side of the family, which
we'll talk about today, has an East African connection.
And the other, in terms of interfaith, is the
other side of my family is half Christian and
half Muslim. So this is a subject that's not
theoretical for me. It's a subject that I live.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us about, okay,
so your family is originally from Najaf. Okay.
How did they make their way or why did they make
their way to East Africa? So this is my father's
side of the family. So my grandfather, when he
was studying to be a cleric in Najaf. This was
during the eventual fall of the Ottoman Empire
when it made its alliance in World War I with
the Central Powers. So in the 1920s, there was
this uprising in Iraq. It was the beginning of
what was then called the Iraqi insurgency in
the 1920s, and it was against the British. And
my grandfather was one of those people who lived
within Iraq. and fought the British. So he was
there during a transition period when the Ottoman
Empire had just come collapsing, and the British
were replacing Iraq with a mandate, which was
a League of Nations political entity, which they
would control. It was a colony all but in name.
And so apparently... My grandfather picked up
a rifle, tried to fight the British, wasn't very
good. He was incarcerated, was able to escape.
And the 1920s was the age of the passport because
there was a, if you remember during the pandemic,
how we needed this piece of paper to travel internationally.
It was introduced actually during the Spanish
flu or the great influenza pandemic of 1918.
So it's an interesting moment when I was going
through my father's and I found my grandfather's
passport. And the passport was the passport of
the Persian Empire. That's what it was called
when he got it, when he had to leave, when he
was playing the British. And he needed that because
Iran in those days kind of worked like the Vatican.
where they had like a record of where there was
a need for a cleric. So just like, you know,
the Catholic Church would do that. My grandfather
was told there's a need for a cleric in this
island called Zanzibar. And that's how he ended
up in Zanzibar to be a, you know, a Jafari, Athnashirishia
cleric on the island. And that's where my father
was born. in 1935 interesting yeah so from the
part of the koja lore is that there were actually
some kojas that actually had gone for pilgrimage
to Najaf and they had met some ayatollahs and
they were impressed to see that they were kind
of they knew something about Shiism, but they
didn't know much about Shiism. And so then your
grandfather was then tasked to go and to teach
them about the tradition. And so that's kind
of part of this transition from their own religious
traditions, which was a combination of Hinduism
and then also Sunni and Shia Islam into kind
of more sort of mainstream Shia Islam. So teaching
them in terms of like Shia law, fiqh, and then
also starting this. interesting transition that
has developed until today, which is the khums
and sort of how to be able to transfer funds
to the ayatollahs and kind of the authority that
that brings. That's very interesting. So your
family was in Zanzibar for a while. They're no
longer in Zanzibar. What happened? So, I mean,
the beginning, my father and his brothers, my
grandmother died when my father was only a child
during childbirth. So my father and his brothers
all wanted to go into medicine to improve the
health sector in Santa Barbara. And in those
days, the, you know. you went to India to study
medicine. This was during the non -aligned movement
and the government of India was offering scholarships
in East Africa. So my father went to go study
medicine in Madras and Bombay. And then eventually
he made his way to London School of Tropical
Hygiene and Medicine, this great imperial center
where the British kind of managed their empire.
So, of course, Zanzibar by this time, you know,
is more or less a British domain. And while he
was studying... Well, he was abroad in the UK.
Of course, there was an upheaval in Zanzibar
and anyone kind of associated with the kind of
intermediate class on behalf of the British Empire
had to flee. And so my grandfather's family,
including my grandfather, had to leave Zanzibar.
And so their mission of coming back to Zanzibar
and helping the island's public health sector,
of course, never materialized. They never had
a choice. And my grandfather died along the journey.
And so he's... buried by Mount Kilimanjaro in
this town called Arusha. And I visited his grave
in the year 2000. And my father never went to
Zanzibar until the year 2000 as well. It was
during that trip that when I was at the University
of Oxford, I got a scholarship where I could
take my father and myself. We both went to Zanzibar.
And so not really since maybe late 1950s. There
was a span of about 50 years. uh between the
last time he left zanzibar with a boat he took
a boat to india And in the year 2000, he flew
back for the first time. Oh, wow. Interesting.
And so the grave in Arusha, is that in the Hoja
Cemetery? It's in the Hoja Cemetery, yeah. And
this is the amazing thing about when we went
on that trip. It wasn't just to Zanzibar. It
was really a trip about the Hoja networks in
East Africa. Because the minute we landed in
Dar es Salaam, there were members of the Hoja
community to pick us up from the airport and
host us. and help us recreate the past. It was
the same in Dar es Salaam, the same in Arusha,
in Zanzibar itself, of course, and then in Mombasa.
And they helped my father recreate his past.
It's quite interesting. And the minute we arrived
in the airport, they took care of us. It really
wasn't just my grandfather and my father's history.
It was really just how... impressive the hoja
network was that they treated him like royalty
exactly when he came back yeah no i mean i think
like even within um because i worked a lot on
koja heritage and history and stuff like that
and like um your family is kind of like a big
legend they're the aghaz like yeah yeah yeah
that's how he was referred to so it's there i
mean it's it's a very important part of the Khoja
identity that they feel that they're tremendously
indebted to your family for being able to teach
them about Islam and the tradition. Yeah, that's
interesting. So as you were going through this
journey into the past, what are some of the unique
things that you sort of observed about your family
that you were like, okay, well, this is really
interesting. This kind of connects to something
that I knew or I grew up with. a perspective
you know it's it's i grew up with us the story
of my father from zanzibar who uh you know when
he went to india The student organization he
joined was the Pan -African Student Organization.
This is a father who always used to tell me in
1956, he sent his shoe to Prime Minister Eden
for the Suez Canal crisis and Britain's role
in colluding with Israel and France. So he always
spoke of the British presence in Zanzibar as
an imperial presence. What was interesting was
the minute we got off the plane, I'm sorry, the
minute we got off the ferry from Dar es Salaam
to Zanzibar, and he looked at the island, and
the first thing he said was, I wish the British
never left. And so that was the first... interesting
dynamic that, you know, we were always raised
with a father who, you know, told us about all
the, his, you know, his life as an anti -colonial
resistance to the British. And the minute he
comes there, he says, the British should have
never left. So why do you say that? Because in
his opinion, it wasn't the island he remembered
of the 50s. It had declined. It had fallen apart
in his eyes. And so, basically, he remembers
the pristine imperial past. And this is where
he held on to when he went there. And it was
kind of a disappointment for him. It was the
way to our family house. He didn't remember.
It was, again, the local hojas had to show them,
this is your family house. This is where your
grandfather used to, you know, give his sermons
from. So it was more of learning of the Zanzibar
he left in the 1950s and that it just never matched
his connection. It was interesting hearing him
speak Swahili for the first time and how he was
struggling with the words and so on and so forth.
So I think those were the most surprising elements
of coming back to Zanzibar in that trip in the
year 2000. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's changed a
lot since then. I think even when I was growing
up and I used to go back with my mother, in that
time, that was sort of the 90s when I was younger,
it had completely fallen apart. Because basically
what had happened is that you had the revolution
that took place. And so, yeah, the entire, all
of... It was a very cosmopolitan society. And
so many of the groups had left, basically. They
were forced out. And it was just... There are
a couple of different things. Like one is that
just even the walls and everything in Zanzibar
are made of coral stone. And the coral stone
itself has to be maintained in a certain way
as the monsoons come through. And so if it's
not properly plastered on a regular basis and
clean, like the entire thing just falls down.
And so one of the main buildings, which is the
palace, it was known as Beit El Ajab. collapsed
like about 10 years ago the entire like half
of the wing just completely collapsed so it had
not been properly maintained and then what ended
up happening is that the Omani government came
and stepped in and helped to rebuild and then
the Interestingly enough, the AKD and the Aga
Khan Development Network has also now like kind
of rebuilt, especially a ferry port in sort of
that area. So it's starting to come back sort
of economically. But yeah, it was for many, for
decades, because basically it was so reliant
on clove exports. And what had happened is that
then it was kind of mass producing cloves. And
it was connected, they connected kind of basically
the... the east indies uh to sort of global markets
and then basically like the small quantity that
zanzibar was able to produce was not sufficient
and you were able to kind of do clove production
all over the world and so it was like it was
just this one major crop basically and then exactly
yeah and then and they tried to control it by
you know using also it went through the social
space so they tried to control the production
of it and then that also of course failed as
well right um so yeah there's a lot of so just
the entire sort of island essentially when I
was going there it just looked when I was growing
up it looked like it was just kind of like some
sort of bomb had hit it or something like that
it was just very very sad situation it was yeah
it was very sad yeah it was very sad yeah exactly
and then also like the way that it was described
because what you would see is that in the old
city as well there are these benches called Baraza
and so when they were growing up people were
everywhere. You know, I mean, if you go to the
old, the city, the stone town now, it feels kind
of deserted in a way. I see. Right. But at that
time, I mean, every building was filled full
of people. People would sit on the stone benches
in the evenings. They would talk to each other.
I mean, it was a whole. Oh, yeah. The culture.
Yeah. The culture was completely different at
that point. You know, and the remarkable thing
is also that. um like your father um and then
my uh my uncles and aunts and stuff like that
they all spoke english perfectly almost right
which is quite remarkable so just the the level
of um integration cosmopolitanism that existed
at that time also sort of was gone as well so
and people used to say that it used to be the
um because it was the capital of the omani empire
the 19th century yeah it was extremely wealthy
yeah i mean it was like the crown jewel of the
omani empire i imagine that like you know, they
transferred the capital there. So how much money
sort of was coming in and out of there. So, yeah.
And then, yeah, so it's interesting kind of like
thinking about that history. So how has, how
did your family history take you to where you
are today? in your own, you know, sort of intellectual
journey, in your own personal identity? So, you
know, it's quite interesting that, of course,
you know, when you come from Zanzibar, you know,
first of all, it's a great teaching experience.
And so, you know, because I really stress to
my students that these categories we use, such
as the Middle East or East Africa, we kind of
create containers that... deny us the chance
of looking at the linkages or, you know, just
how, you know, these regions are more or less
Cold War figments of our imaginations, whereas
phenomena such as the monsoon winds bring these
regions together in ways that is natural, as
the environment does one thing and our geopolitics
does another. And so, you know, I love telling
that story from Negev, both my father and, of
course, my father's neighbor, Farrokh Bolsara.
ended up in the UK. And there they learned the
politics of, you know, empire and the metropole.
And, you know, of course, Farah Bulsara won't
resonate, but I love showing him the picture
because Farah Bulsara has pictures on the internet.
I love showing the next picture of him growing
up and... of course, a picture of Freddie Mercury.
Sure. The most famous export. Exactly. And that
just always never fails to impress them. But
through that personal narrative, whether it's
my father or Faro, they really get a history
of empire, how India, the Middle East, East Africa,
were this one contiguous geographical zone, of
course, formed and shaped by empire. And I love
to kind of raise this hypothetical scenario that
the Bismillah in Bohemian Rhapsody could have
been the words he might have heard my grandfather
say from the mosque. But that really gives them
a interesting history of why I went to study
in Oxford was I could study there paying the
home student prices because my father got British
citizenship. And so I just like to say that because
my grandfather fought the British. He ended up
looking out for his grandson's education generations
later, even though I never met the man. He looked
out for my education generations later, allowing
me to get my PhD from Oxford. But when I went
to Oxford, it was trying to do this transnational
history. At the end of the day, I focused on
Iraq's history more than the history of East
Africa. Even though for me, I knew when I was
going to be a professor, I was going to show
how all these areas. were connected but that's
the reason i went to oxford why i focused on
iraqi history and um really to uh it's the iraqi
history that brings both my father's and my mother's
side together and i think that's why i chose
that subject ah interesting okay and what has
been your experience um in terms of so what what
is the the your research now uh so uh my research
was on The ability to do research on Iraq is
always based on the primary sources you have
access to. So in my day, there was maybe a few
historians of Iraq. And they mostly worked on
the British period. Juan Cole was one of them.
But I was at an interesting juncture where documents
from Saddam Hussein's Iraq. When I began my PhD
in the year 2000, documents from Saddam Hussein's
Iraq had just been made public for the first
time. So I could write a history of Iraq in the
60s all the way to when they were captured, which
was the 1990s. So go for it. And so the most
interesting part of this story is, and it even
comes back to empire on another level. So I was
making this joke about studying Iraq, allowed
me to connect to my grandfather's history. And
in a bizarre, surreal episode, part of the research
I was doing on Baathist Iraq in the year 2002.
got plagiarized by the British government on
the eve of the 2003 Iraq War. And the British
government basically said, released something
to the public called the latest intelligence
dossier in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And it's known
as the Daji Dossier. And so this is how I came
to do research on Iraq and it came to produce
the Daji Dossier. And it's a good lesson on the
value of history, that the history I was doing
on Iraq in 1991. in the year 2000, was just as
valuable to the British government in justifying
the 2003 Iraq War. And it was this document that
was shown to the British Parliament where they
voted to go to war against Iraq. Colin Powell
took that document to the UN and, you know, Bandy
did it about its justification for the 2003 Iraq
War. And, of course, that war led to not only
the invasion, but the birth of an insurgency.
And I really thought that was a good example
of coming full circle. The insurgency that my
grandfather took part in set me on the path that
indirectly justified another invasion of Iraq,
where the British were back on Iraqi soil and
which produced an insurgency in the 21st century.
Which took, again, the British and Americans
by surprise. But I always remember on the eve
of the 2003 Iraq War, using my grandfather as
an example, don't be surprised if there was an
insurgency emerging in 2003, I would say, based
on my grandfather's story. And this is what I
found is telling history through personal narratives,
whether it's Freddie Mercury or my grandfather,
resonates a lot more than talking about, you
know, these... Trans and abstract terms. Students
resonate with the personal narrative. Absolutely.
So what did that teach you in terms of that experience
in terms of doing research or sort of like how
it can be misused? Sure, sure. You know, everyone
always said that, you know, research, you know,
the research you do could serve. you know, the
powers that be. And I always thought, who would
ever read this obscure thesis I'm doing in Oxford?
But then, I mean, that case not only proved it,
but it has a much more valuable lesson, is that...
people in the public should always be skeptical
of the evidence. It's really more great or less
on critical thinking is when a government presents
you with evidence saying this is the reason why
we should go to war. Now you should be more skeptical
about those claims, whether it's in 2003 in Iraq
or in 2025 when the U .S. attacked Iran or when
the U .S. is attacking Venezuela. Whenever evidence
is saying provided that this is intelligence
that we have to ask, public should always be
skeptical that what is done. in the name of intelligence
reports are not these documents that have absolute
proof that the so -called threat is there. You
talked about part of your family. How about the
other part? So, yeah, that's a good question.
My mom's side of the family are from Iraq. They're,
again, a prominent 12 Rishia family with parts
of their family originally coming from Kashmir.
The al -Kashmiri family, for example, is my side
of my mom's family. Oh, wow. But the most interesting...
Part of that side of the family, and I've published
about this, is my grandfather married a woman
who was a Syriac Orthodox Christian from Lebanon.
And that side of the family, she died when my
mother was very young, my grandmother. Okay,
so tragically, both my grandmothers died in tragic
circumstances, both related to the poor nature
of public health, whether it was in East Africa
or my mom, my grandmother's case in Iraq. And
so that side of the family was never talked about,
the Christian side of my family. And it was really,
again in the year 2000, and the year 2000 was
a great discovery of my family's past, was I
went to Lebanon. And more or less went into this
city where I knew my grandmother was from and
just simply asked around, does anyone know a
woman? who married an Iraqi in the 1950s, an
Iraqi Muslim in the 1950s, and was so scandalous
that, yeah, people in this town called Zahli
knew of my grandmother's story. And basically,
it was just by asking around, I found an entire
side of my grandmother's family. And that there
was my grandmother, and I won't give away this
story, because it's really a story that deserves
its own. I found the Syriac Orthodox side of
my family. And it's a very interesting interfaith
story. Their side of the family was, I am descendant,
my grandmother's uncle would have been the patriarch.
of the Syriac Orthodox Church. So the equivalent
of the Pope for this church. So, you know, and
it was quite interesting that I learned a lot
about Middle Eastern Christianity. And it was
a great interfaith experience because for this
side of the family, it doesn't matter my religious
difference. They were always, I was their lost,
you know, relative. And so it was not only a
fascinating case where I could learn about this
Christian side of my family. The Syriac patriarch,
that's my great uncle, he's actually buried.
in Kerala, India. And again, it's another story
of the British Empire. So in Kerala, India, of
course, there's the largest concentration of
Syriac Orthodox Christians. It's not in the Middle
East, the St. Thomas Christians. And the British
Empire asked him to go intervene in a doctrinal
difference there. And the journey was so exhausting
that he ended up dying and he's buried in Kerala.
And I went in to visit what was basically his
shrine in India. Wow. I went, and it was a beautiful
journey. And so, you know, it's quite an interesting
story about what the decline of World War, what
the decline of the Ottoman Empire meant for both
sides of my family. For one grandfather, it was
fighting the British, escaping to Zanzibar. For
the other side of the family, it was a great
uncle who eventually was not only given a medal
by the Ottoman Sultan, he was also recognized.
recognized by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. He was given
medals by him for keeping the Syriacs. More or
less, I think, intact members of the new Turkish
Republic. And eventually, so not only would my
great uncle have met Ataturk, but then getting
this request from the British Empire to mediate
British India. And so both sides of the story
are kind of like a microcosm of the Indian Ocean.
And this is why always my dream would be to have
that perfect academic position. And you know
how our disciplines are. the Middle East studies
prevent us from doing West Indian Ocean studies
and so on and so forth. But you see, these categories
are really arbitrary. Exactly. And I just use
my two sides of the family just to demonstrate
that the monsoon winds would explain a lot more
of our region than these artificial geopolitical
blocks would create. That's right. Yeah. No,
I mean, I think even like historically, culturally,
there's just so much. I think that's the thing.
People think, okay, well, people just kind of
stayed where they were in the past. But there
was actually a lot of movement. A lot of movement.
There's a lot of movement despite the technological
hurdles. Exactly. The steamship really, I mean,
it's not an accident that Titanic did so well
as a film because it tells these stories of these
epic journeys that we take for granted, perilous
epic journeys. Right, exactly. Yeah, the steamship,
the steamboat was very much a story of my family.
Yeah. Yeah. And the railroads, of course. The
British built railroads, of course. I mean, my
father's family would have gone, they would have
left Zanzibar through that north -south axis
of the British Empire, so coveted in Africa.
I mean, that was also very interesting just to
think about how the empire stitched all these
parts of the world together in very unique ways.
I mean, the Gujaratis, whether we're talking
about Zohran Mamdani's family. And it's quite
interesting that I met Zohran. Oh, really? His
father was at a conference in Istanbul. And so
I knew the Mamdani last name. So I approached
the father and there was this young, this was
in the early 2000s, there was a young Zohran
next to him. Did they recognize who you were?
Mahmoud Mamdani didn't recognize my father. My
grandfather, sorry. Oh yeah, he absolutely didn't
recognize my grandfather when I told him who
he was. It's great just to have these academics,
whether it's Mahmoud Mamdani or Faisal Debji,
all know my grandfather, but my family's majestic
cinema in Zanzibar, they're still involved. No,
it's amazing. That's great. And so what, I mean,
yes, if you were able to design your ideal. research
project and you had as much money as you wanted
to, what would you do? Oh, it would be a research
project taking these personal narratives and
bringing them together in not only kind of written
form, but using the new technology, whether it's
artificial intelligence or multimedia, digital
history, and more or less tell this story in
a single cohesive narrative. I think the way
academia is structured, we're not rewarded for
these kind of... project you know it has to be
Middle East studies or you know African studies
or but this is really not only a story of interfaith
It's also a story of how the environment shaped
us. But it's also a tragic story of how climate
change is going to affect these areas we study.
I mean, Zanzibar is already having problems with
its mangroves and saltwater intrusion. And, you
know, whether we're talking about states like
the Maldives or Seychelles, which were always
stops on my grandfather's journey to India. We
can't forget this is about also preserving a
place that is... that are also perilous going
into the future. And so that's why it's my ideal
project. It's to bring attention to lands that
are very much being threatened by climate change.
And this is a podcast that's also directed at
students. So what advice do you have for students
who maybe are interested in kind of pursuing
Middle East studies or interested in kind of
religious studies or interfaith work in the future
what should they do i have a great uh lesson
for all of you and it's um find your study your
passions Don't give in too much to your parents'
pressure. Now, because, I mean, for a good part
of you, you're probably going to have connections
to the region. And this is the other thing that
unites our regions, whether I'm talking about
South Asia, the Middle East, Africa, is we've
always told to go into the hard sciences, law,
medicine, engineering. And I really resisted
that. And I'm glad I did because, I mean, the
ability to document these stories, to take my
father to Zanzibar was all because I resisted
their... pressure. And so, you know, it's a very
easy, Joseph Campbell, that one great scholar
of mythology always said, follow the bliss. I
say, follow your passion. And if you have a question
about what your passion is, again, I'll do a
very academic exercise with you. Passion is coming
from the Greek word that gives us pathos, where
we get sympathy, empathy from, pathetic from.
And it's also the other Greek word in another
etymological direction that gives us passion.
And so passion is not what we think about like
the telenovelas that you probably associate with
South America. Passion literally means suffering.
And if you think about it, you know, when you
talk about the passion of Christ, you're not
talking about Jesus Christ being a passionate
dude. You're talking about somebody who's suffering.
And so if you're having trouble finding your
passion, you know, ask yourself this. What is
it without which in your life would you suffer?
And if you have the answer, you have your passion,
and I would say, go ahead and pursue it. And
ideally, you could pursue it academically. If
not, you could do it. But you might not even
know what your passion is unless you think about
it in this term. And for me, the pastor was my
passion. Because my family wouldn't tell it to
me reliably. I always had to push them. I always
had to push my father for stories about Zanzibar.
I always had to tell my mom, tell me about the
Lebanese side of the family that you're hiding,
or tell me how bad it was in Iraq with the, you
know, the mohabarat, the secret police that sent
you fleeing. And I never could get full comprehensive
answers. I had to discover my past. And that
became my passion, uncovering this past that
was denied to me. Okay, so it's kind of a search
for identity. Yeah, identity, yeah. I think all
of us would suffer if we were denied our identity.
Of course, yeah. And so I think that's a good
way of saying, you know, always learn about your
identity. And it's not, you know, for all of
you, all students, no matter what, if you think
your identity is boring, that, you know, I'm
just a white guy from the U .S., no, because
in every single one of my history classes, this
is my assignment. None of you have a boring history.
You just haven't bothered looking. Or the way
your parents told you it was boring. And so in
my history courses, that's it. To graduate, that's
something AI can't do for you, is you have to
discover your past. How did the past make you?
That's wonderful, yeah. I feel the same way in
terms of being inspired by my own background
in history, and I think that took me. For me,
it was also, I think, 9 -11 also. I think in
kind of the... I think that also kind of was
a turning point. That's interesting. For me,
it was the 9 -1 -Gulf War. And I was a teenager.
And that's why I wrote my thesis on it. 9 -11,
of course, was a turning point as well. Yeah,
exactly. And that's kind of how I measure my
life. It's pre -9 -11, post -9 -11. Yeah. Because
you basically... I mean, I think growing up as
a minority in the United States... It's definitely
a search for identity. But then there are these
catalyzing moments also that force you also to
explain yourself. And to be able to explain yourself,
you have to know who you are. Exactly. And there's
this whole search that goes into it. That's very
true. You really do need to know your history
to rebut arguments that Muslims are inherently
terrorists or that Islam is inherently violent.
And you really do need to go into the history
and just show examples to disprove those arguments.
Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. I really
enjoy your really good questions. Wonderful,
wonderful. And I want to thank you for the work
you're doing on my family because I can't wait
to learn from you about my family's past. Of
course, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thank you
so much. My pleasure. All right. Thank you.