WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:03.580 Hi, welcome to another episode of our FIU course 00:00:03.580 --> 00:00:08.580 podcast, the Interface podcast. We're very honored 00:00:08.580 --> 00:00:11.099 to have Professor Abdullah, who's joining us 00:00:11.099 --> 00:00:13.539 here. Ibrahim, Ibrahim, I'm sorry. No problem. 00:00:14.939 --> 00:00:18.760 Ibrahim Almarashi, who is joining us for an AI 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:20.719 conference that we're doing right now. And so 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.420 I'll let him introduce himself and talk a little 00:00:23.420 --> 00:00:26.399 bit about a very, very interesting family history 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:29.280 that's brought him to where he's at today. Yeah, 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:33.899 so I'm Ibrahim Almarashi. I teach history in 00:00:33.899 --> 00:00:39.320 San Diego. And currently I'm based, I also teach 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:43.140 in Madrid and occasionally teach courses in Rome. 00:00:44.619 --> 00:00:47.439 Milan, and I'm going to be teaching a class called 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:51.079 The Problem of God in Florence. But otherwise, 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:54.659 in terms of my family history, it's a National 00:00:54.659 --> 00:00:58.600 Geographic documentary. The easy answer where 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:02.039 both my sides of the family have origins from 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:05.739 is in Negev. But one side of the family, which 00:01:05.739 --> 00:01:08.040 we'll talk about today, has an East African connection. 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:12.000 And the other, in terms of interfaith, is the 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:14.159 other side of my family is half Christian and 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.620 half Muslim. So this is a subject that's not 00:01:17.620 --> 00:01:19.700 theoretical for me. It's a subject that I live. 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.219 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us about, okay, 00:01:23.260 --> 00:01:26.000 so your family is originally from Najaf. Okay. 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:28.780 How did they make their way or why did they make 00:01:28.780 --> 00:01:31.780 their way to East Africa? So this is my father's 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.760 side of the family. So my grandfather, when he 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:41.790 was studying to be a cleric in Najaf. This was 00:01:41.790 --> 00:01:45.090 during the eventual fall of the Ottoman Empire 00:01:45.090 --> 00:01:47.870 when it made its alliance in World War I with 00:01:47.870 --> 00:01:53.109 the Central Powers. So in the 1920s, there was 00:01:53.109 --> 00:01:55.909 this uprising in Iraq. It was the beginning of 00:01:55.909 --> 00:01:58.769 what was then called the Iraqi insurgency in 00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:01.109 the 1920s, and it was against the British. And 00:02:01.109 --> 00:02:03.950 my grandfather was one of those people who lived 00:02:03.950 --> 00:02:08.780 within Iraq. and fought the British. So he was 00:02:08.780 --> 00:02:11.479 there during a transition period when the Ottoman 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:14.719 Empire had just come collapsing, and the British 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.939 were replacing Iraq with a mandate, which was 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:20.419 a League of Nations political entity, which they 00:02:20.419 --> 00:02:22.500 would control. It was a colony all but in name. 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:27.740 And so apparently... My grandfather picked up 00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:29.960 a rifle, tried to fight the British, wasn't very 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.219 good. He was incarcerated, was able to escape. 00:02:33.699 --> 00:02:38.000 And the 1920s was the age of the passport because 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:41.060 there was a, if you remember during the pandemic, 00:02:41.099 --> 00:02:43.199 how we needed this piece of paper to travel internationally. 00:02:43.340 --> 00:02:45.740 It was introduced actually during the Spanish 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:48.259 flu or the great influenza pandemic of 1918. 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:53.360 So it's an interesting moment when I was going 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.939 through my father's and I found my grandfather's 00:02:56.939 --> 00:02:59.740 passport. And the passport was the passport of 00:02:59.740 --> 00:03:01.719 the Persian Empire. That's what it was called 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:03.840 when he got it, when he had to leave, when he 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:06.680 was playing the British. And he needed that because 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:08.900 Iran in those days kind of worked like the Vatican. 00:03:10.100 --> 00:03:14.919 where they had like a record of where there was 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.400 a need for a cleric. So just like, you know, 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:20.340 the Catholic Church would do that. My grandfather 00:03:20.340 --> 00:03:22.800 was told there's a need for a cleric in this 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:26.159 island called Zanzibar. And that's how he ended 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:31.400 up in Zanzibar to be a, you know, a Jafari, Athnashirishia 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.199 cleric on the island. And that's where my father 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.060 was born. in 1935 interesting yeah so from the 00:03:38.060 --> 00:03:42.500 part of the koja lore is that there were actually 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:44.900 some kojas that actually had gone for pilgrimage 00:03:44.900 --> 00:03:48.340 to Najaf and they had met some ayatollahs and 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:53.379 they were impressed to see that they were kind 00:03:53.379 --> 00:03:55.439 of they knew something about Shiism, but they 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:58.639 didn't know much about Shiism. And so then your 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:01.199 grandfather was then tasked to go and to teach 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:03.960 them about the tradition. And so that's kind 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:08.479 of part of this transition from their own religious 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:10.599 traditions, which was a combination of Hinduism 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.240 and then also Sunni and Shia Islam into kind 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.139 of more sort of mainstream Shia Islam. So teaching 00:04:17.139 --> 00:04:20.959 them in terms of like Shia law, fiqh, and then 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.310 also starting this. interesting transition that 00:04:24.310 --> 00:04:28.430 has developed until today, which is the khums 00:04:28.430 --> 00:04:31.670 and sort of how to be able to transfer funds 00:04:31.670 --> 00:04:36.370 to the ayatollahs and kind of the authority that 00:04:36.370 --> 00:04:38.850 that brings. That's very interesting. So your 00:04:38.850 --> 00:04:42.689 family was in Zanzibar for a while. They're no 00:04:42.689 --> 00:04:46.199 longer in Zanzibar. What happened? So, I mean, 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:51.339 the beginning, my father and his brothers, my 00:04:51.339 --> 00:04:54.639 grandmother died when my father was only a child 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:57.180 during childbirth. So my father and his brothers 00:04:57.180 --> 00:05:00.420 all wanted to go into medicine to improve the 00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:03.420 health sector in Santa Barbara. And in those 00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:09.240 days, the, you know. you went to India to study 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.120 medicine. This was during the non -aligned movement 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.399 and the government of India was offering scholarships 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.959 in East Africa. So my father went to go study 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:23.379 medicine in Madras and Bombay. And then eventually 00:05:23.379 --> 00:05:26.680 he made his way to London School of Tropical 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.540 Hygiene and Medicine, this great imperial center 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:32.899 where the British kind of managed their empire. 00:05:33.019 --> 00:05:34.879 So, of course, Zanzibar by this time, you know, 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:38.579 is more or less a British domain. And while he 00:05:38.579 --> 00:05:43.060 was studying... Well, he was abroad in the UK. 00:05:43.939 --> 00:05:46.560 Of course, there was an upheaval in Zanzibar 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.259 and anyone kind of associated with the kind of 00:05:50.259 --> 00:05:52.500 intermediate class on behalf of the British Empire 00:05:52.500 --> 00:05:55.339 had to flee. And so my grandfather's family, 00:05:55.579 --> 00:05:57.899 including my grandfather, had to leave Zanzibar. 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.120 And so their mission of coming back to Zanzibar 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.879 and helping the island's public health sector, 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:05.740 of course, never materialized. They never had 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:09.540 a choice. And my grandfather died along the journey. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.949 And so he's... buried by Mount Kilimanjaro in 00:06:12.949 --> 00:06:16.550 this town called Arusha. And I visited his grave 00:06:16.550 --> 00:06:22.470 in the year 2000. And my father never went to 00:06:22.470 --> 00:06:25.589 Zanzibar until the year 2000 as well. It was 00:06:25.589 --> 00:06:28.269 during that trip that when I was at the University 00:06:28.269 --> 00:06:30.110 of Oxford, I got a scholarship where I could 00:06:30.110 --> 00:06:33.709 take my father and myself. We both went to Zanzibar. 00:06:34.050 --> 00:06:38.170 And so not really since maybe late 1950s. There 00:06:38.170 --> 00:06:41.649 was a span of about 50 years. uh between the 00:06:41.649 --> 00:06:43.949 last time he left zanzibar with a boat he took 00:06:43.949 --> 00:06:47.000 a boat to india And in the year 2000, he flew 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.040 back for the first time. Oh, wow. Interesting. 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:53.600 And so the grave in Arusha, is that in the Hoja 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.779 Cemetery? It's in the Hoja Cemetery, yeah. And 00:06:56.779 --> 00:06:59.680 this is the amazing thing about when we went 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.160 on that trip. It wasn't just to Zanzibar. It 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.360 was really a trip about the Hoja networks in 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.279 East Africa. Because the minute we landed in 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.439 Dar es Salaam, there were members of the Hoja 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:13.899 community to pick us up from the airport and 00:07:13.899 --> 00:07:19.040 host us. and help us recreate the past. It was 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:23.579 the same in Dar es Salaam, the same in Arusha, 00:07:23.579 --> 00:07:27.220 in Zanzibar itself, of course, and then in Mombasa. 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:31.160 And they helped my father recreate his past. 00:07:31.300 --> 00:07:34.060 It's quite interesting. And the minute we arrived 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:37.500 in the airport, they took care of us. It really 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:41.160 wasn't just my grandfather and my father's history. 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.660 It was really just how... impressive the hoja 00:07:44.660 --> 00:07:47.740 network was that they treated him like royalty 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:51.600 exactly when he came back yeah no i mean i think 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.939 like even within um because i worked a lot on 00:07:53.939 --> 00:07:56.579 koja heritage and history and stuff like that 00:07:56.579 --> 00:07:59.939 and like um your family is kind of like a big 00:07:59.939 --> 00:08:03.360 legend they're the aghaz like yeah yeah yeah 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.639 that's how he was referred to so it's there i 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:10.079 mean it's it's a very important part of the Khoja 00:08:10.079 --> 00:08:12.720 identity that they feel that they're tremendously 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.759 indebted to your family for being able to teach 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:19.439 them about Islam and the tradition. Yeah, that's 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.240 interesting. So as you were going through this 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.660 journey into the past, what are some of the unique 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:31.939 things that you sort of observed about your family 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:33.740 that you were like, okay, well, this is really 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:35.299 interesting. This kind of connects to something 00:08:35.299 --> 00:08:38.279 that I knew or I grew up with. a perspective 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:42.240 you know it's it's i grew up with us the story 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:45.860 of my father from zanzibar who uh you know when 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:49.129 he went to india The student organization he 00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:52.009 joined was the Pan -African Student Organization. 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:54.690 This is a father who always used to tell me in 00:08:54.690 --> 00:08:58.809 1956, he sent his shoe to Prime Minister Eden 00:08:58.809 --> 00:09:01.230 for the Suez Canal crisis and Britain's role 00:09:01.230 --> 00:09:07.210 in colluding with Israel and France. So he always 00:09:07.210 --> 00:09:09.789 spoke of the British presence in Zanzibar as 00:09:09.789 --> 00:09:13.840 an imperial presence. What was interesting was 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:16.440 the minute we got off the plane, I'm sorry, the 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.100 minute we got off the ferry from Dar es Salaam 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:21.080 to Zanzibar, and he looked at the island, and 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.000 the first thing he said was, I wish the British 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.939 never left. And so that was the first... interesting 00:09:26.939 --> 00:09:28.899 dynamic that, you know, we were always raised 00:09:28.899 --> 00:09:31.179 with a father who, you know, told us about all 00:09:31.179 --> 00:09:34.259 the, his, you know, his life as an anti -colonial 00:09:34.259 --> 00:09:36.700 resistance to the British. And the minute he 00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:40.039 comes there, he says, the British should have 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:42.039 never left. So why do you say that? Because in 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.379 his opinion, it wasn't the island he remembered 00:09:44.379 --> 00:09:47.690 of the 50s. It had declined. It had fallen apart 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:51.610 in his eyes. And so, basically, he remembers 00:09:51.610 --> 00:09:54.029 the pristine imperial past. And this is where 00:09:54.029 --> 00:09:56.450 he held on to when he went there. And it was 00:09:56.450 --> 00:10:00.190 kind of a disappointment for him. It was the 00:10:00.190 --> 00:10:02.850 way to our family house. He didn't remember. 00:10:03.129 --> 00:10:05.669 It was, again, the local hojas had to show them, 00:10:05.690 --> 00:10:07.509 this is your family house. This is where your 00:10:07.509 --> 00:10:11.389 grandfather used to, you know, give his sermons 00:10:11.389 --> 00:10:22.360 from. So it was more of learning of the Zanzibar 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.840 he left in the 1950s and that it just never matched 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:29.259 his connection. It was interesting hearing him 00:10:29.259 --> 00:10:32.159 speak Swahili for the first time and how he was 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:34.360 struggling with the words and so on and so forth. 00:10:34.580 --> 00:10:37.759 So I think those were the most surprising elements 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.879 of coming back to Zanzibar in that trip in the 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:45.940 year 2000. Okay. Yeah, I mean, it's changed a 00:10:45.940 --> 00:10:49.080 lot since then. I think even when I was growing 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.960 up and I used to go back with my mother, in that 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.940 time, that was sort of the 90s when I was younger, 00:10:56.259 --> 00:10:59.740 it had completely fallen apart. Because basically 00:10:59.740 --> 00:11:02.399 what had happened is that you had the revolution 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.600 that took place. And so, yeah, the entire, all 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:10.580 of... It was a very cosmopolitan society. And 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:12.419 so many of the groups had left, basically. They 00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:15.899 were forced out. And it was just... There are 00:11:15.899 --> 00:11:17.480 a couple of different things. Like one is that 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.419 just even the walls and everything in Zanzibar 00:11:20.419 --> 00:11:22.419 are made of coral stone. And the coral stone 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:24.379 itself has to be maintained in a certain way 00:11:24.379 --> 00:11:26.639 as the monsoons come through. And so if it's 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:28.600 not properly plastered on a regular basis and 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.759 clean, like the entire thing just falls down. 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:34.460 And so one of the main buildings, which is the 00:11:34.460 --> 00:11:39.910 palace, it was known as Beit El Ajab. collapsed 00:11:39.910 --> 00:11:42.610 like about 10 years ago the entire like half 00:11:42.610 --> 00:11:45.169 of the wing just completely collapsed so it had 00:11:45.169 --> 00:11:47.830 not been properly maintained and then what ended 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:50.149 up happening is that the Omani government came 00:11:50.149 --> 00:11:52.149 and stepped in and helped to rebuild and then 00:11:52.149 --> 00:11:54.850 the Interestingly enough, the AKD and the Aga 00:11:54.850 --> 00:11:56.649 Khan Development Network has also now like kind 00:11:56.649 --> 00:12:00.230 of rebuilt, especially a ferry port in sort of 00:12:00.230 --> 00:12:03.889 that area. So it's starting to come back sort 00:12:03.889 --> 00:12:07.269 of economically. But yeah, it was for many, for 00:12:07.269 --> 00:12:09.950 decades, because basically it was so reliant 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:13.309 on clove exports. And what had happened is that 00:12:13.309 --> 00:12:17.049 then it was kind of mass producing cloves. And 00:12:17.049 --> 00:12:19.210 it was connected, they connected kind of basically 00:12:19.210 --> 00:12:23.610 the... the east indies uh to sort of global markets 00:12:23.610 --> 00:12:26.149 and then basically like the small quantity that 00:12:26.149 --> 00:12:27.889 zanzibar was able to produce was not sufficient 00:12:27.889 --> 00:12:30.049 and you were able to kind of do clove production 00:12:30.049 --> 00:12:32.590 all over the world and so it was like it was 00:12:32.590 --> 00:12:35.789 just this one major crop basically and then exactly 00:12:35.789 --> 00:12:38.470 yeah and then and they tried to control it by 00:12:38.470 --> 00:12:40.929 you know using also it went through the social 00:12:40.929 --> 00:12:43.509 space so they tried to control the production 00:12:43.509 --> 00:12:45.690 of it and then that also of course failed as 00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:48.129 well right um so yeah there's a lot of so just 00:12:48.129 --> 00:12:51.090 the entire sort of island essentially when I 00:12:51.090 --> 00:12:52.889 was going there it just looked when I was growing 00:12:52.889 --> 00:12:56.409 up it looked like it was just kind of like some 00:12:56.409 --> 00:12:58.029 sort of bomb had hit it or something like that 00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:00.149 it was just very very sad situation it was yeah 00:13:00.149 --> 00:13:02.570 it was very sad yeah it was very sad yeah exactly 00:13:02.570 --> 00:13:06.110 and then also like the way that it was described 00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:08.309 because what you would see is that in the old 00:13:08.309 --> 00:13:10.690 city as well there are these benches called Baraza 00:13:10.690 --> 00:13:13.549 and so when they were growing up people were 00:13:13.549 --> 00:13:15.570 everywhere. You know, I mean, if you go to the 00:13:15.570 --> 00:13:18.409 old, the city, the stone town now, it feels kind 00:13:18.409 --> 00:13:20.809 of deserted in a way. I see. Right. But at that 00:13:20.809 --> 00:13:22.690 time, I mean, every building was filled full 00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:24.669 of people. People would sit on the stone benches 00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:26.649 in the evenings. They would talk to each other. 00:13:26.669 --> 00:13:28.990 I mean, it was a whole. Oh, yeah. The culture. 00:13:29.049 --> 00:13:30.889 Yeah. The culture was completely different at 00:13:30.889 --> 00:13:33.990 that point. You know, and the remarkable thing 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:37.299 is also that. um like your father um and then 00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:39.399 my uh my uncles and aunts and stuff like that 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:41.320 they all spoke english perfectly almost right 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.279 which is quite remarkable so just the the level 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:48.080 of um integration cosmopolitanism that existed 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.639 at that time also sort of was gone as well so 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:52.519 and people used to say that it used to be the 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:56.220 um because it was the capital of the omani empire 00:13:56.220 --> 00:13:59.379 the 19th century yeah it was extremely wealthy 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:01.679 yeah i mean it was like the crown jewel of the 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.230 omani empire i imagine that like you know, they 00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:07.350 transferred the capital there. So how much money 00:14:07.350 --> 00:14:11.070 sort of was coming in and out of there. So, yeah. 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:13.830 And then, yeah, so it's interesting kind of like 00:14:13.830 --> 00:14:18.970 thinking about that history. So how has, how 00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:22.809 did your family history take you to where you 00:14:22.809 --> 00:14:26.149 are today? in your own, you know, sort of intellectual 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:29.210 journey, in your own personal identity? So, you 00:14:29.210 --> 00:14:33.509 know, it's quite interesting that, of course, 00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:35.529 you know, when you come from Zanzibar, you know, 00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:38.929 first of all, it's a great teaching experience. 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:44.129 And so, you know, because I really stress to 00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:46.490 my students that these categories we use, such 00:14:46.490 --> 00:14:49.269 as the Middle East or East Africa, we kind of 00:14:49.269 --> 00:14:53.360 create containers that... deny us the chance 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.059 of looking at the linkages or, you know, just 00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:58.120 how, you know, these regions are more or less 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:01.659 Cold War figments of our imaginations, whereas 00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:04.440 phenomena such as the monsoon winds bring these 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:07.799 regions together in ways that is natural, as 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:10.779 the environment does one thing and our geopolitics 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:13.340 does another. And so, you know, I love telling 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.580 that story from Negev, both my father and, of 00:15:16.580 --> 00:15:19.159 course, my father's neighbor, Farrokh Bolsara. 00:15:19.789 --> 00:15:23.029 ended up in the UK. And there they learned the 00:15:23.029 --> 00:15:25.590 politics of, you know, empire and the metropole. 00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:29.610 And, you know, of course, Farah Bulsara won't 00:15:29.610 --> 00:15:32.049 resonate, but I love showing him the picture 00:15:32.049 --> 00:15:34.730 because Farah Bulsara has pictures on the internet. 00:15:35.070 --> 00:15:37.149 I love showing the next picture of him growing 00:15:37.149 --> 00:15:39.820 up and... of course, a picture of Freddie Mercury. 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.740 Sure. The most famous export. Exactly. And that 00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:48.240 just always never fails to impress them. But 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.159 through that personal narrative, whether it's 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.039 my father or Faro, they really get a history 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:58.340 of empire, how India, the Middle East, East Africa, 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.220 were this one contiguous geographical zone, of 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:05.340 course, formed and shaped by empire. And I love 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:08.299 to kind of raise this hypothetical scenario that 00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:11.659 the Bismillah in Bohemian Rhapsody could have 00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:13.559 been the words he might have heard my grandfather 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:17.600 say from the mosque. But that really gives them 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.580 a interesting history of why I went to study 00:16:22.580 --> 00:16:25.220 in Oxford was I could study there paying the 00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:27.480 home student prices because my father got British 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.620 citizenship. And so I just like to say that because 00:16:30.620 --> 00:16:33.519 my grandfather fought the British. He ended up 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:36.120 looking out for his grandson's education generations 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.340 later, even though I never met the man. He looked 00:16:39.340 --> 00:16:42.000 out for my education generations later, allowing 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:46.519 me to get my PhD from Oxford. But when I went 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.519 to Oxford, it was trying to do this transnational 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.700 history. At the end of the day, I focused on 00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:57.500 Iraq's history more than the history of East 00:16:57.500 --> 00:17:00.000 Africa. Even though for me, I knew when I was 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.139 going to be a professor, I was going to show 00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:03.029 how all these areas. were connected but that's 00:17:03.029 --> 00:17:05.450 the reason i went to oxford why i focused on 00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:11.690 iraqi history and um really to uh it's the iraqi 00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:14.049 history that brings both my father's and my mother's 00:17:14.049 --> 00:17:15.869 side together and i think that's why i chose 00:17:15.869 --> 00:17:18.450 that subject ah interesting okay and what has 00:17:18.450 --> 00:17:22.069 been your experience um in terms of so what what 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:27.029 is the the your research now uh so uh my research 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:32.839 was on The ability to do research on Iraq is 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:34.619 always based on the primary sources you have 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:38.539 access to. So in my day, there was maybe a few 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:41.450 historians of Iraq. And they mostly worked on 00:17:41.450 --> 00:17:46.130 the British period. Juan Cole was one of them. 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:50.829 But I was at an interesting juncture where documents 00:17:50.829 --> 00:17:54.430 from Saddam Hussein's Iraq. When I began my PhD 00:17:54.430 --> 00:17:57.609 in the year 2000, documents from Saddam Hussein's 00:17:57.609 --> 00:17:59.349 Iraq had just been made public for the first 00:17:59.349 --> 00:18:02.490 time. So I could write a history of Iraq in the 00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:06.009 60s all the way to when they were captured, which 00:18:06.009 --> 00:18:09.539 was the 1990s. So go for it. And so the most 00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:12.359 interesting part of this story is, and it even 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.079 comes back to empire on another level. So I was 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.980 making this joke about studying Iraq, allowed 00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:22.819 me to connect to my grandfather's history. And 00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:28.259 in a bizarre, surreal episode, part of the research 00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:31.819 I was doing on Baathist Iraq in the year 2002. 00:18:33.350 --> 00:18:35.869 got plagiarized by the British government on 00:18:35.869 --> 00:18:38.269 the eve of the 2003 Iraq War. And the British 00:18:38.269 --> 00:18:42.410 government basically said, released something 00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:44.750 to the public called the latest intelligence 00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:47.910 dossier in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And it's known 00:18:47.910 --> 00:18:51.890 as the Daji Dossier. And so this is how I came 00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:54.869 to do research on Iraq and it came to produce 00:18:54.869 --> 00:18:58.819 the Daji Dossier. And it's a good lesson on the 00:18:58.819 --> 00:19:01.220 value of history, that the history I was doing 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:05.809 on Iraq in 1991. in the year 2000, was just as 00:19:05.809 --> 00:19:08.170 valuable to the British government in justifying 00:19:08.170 --> 00:19:11.130 the 2003 Iraq War. And it was this document that 00:19:11.130 --> 00:19:13.509 was shown to the British Parliament where they 00:19:13.509 --> 00:19:15.890 voted to go to war against Iraq. Colin Powell 00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:18.490 took that document to the UN and, you know, Bandy 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:21.210 did it about its justification for the 2003 Iraq 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:25.730 War. And, of course, that war led to not only 00:19:25.730 --> 00:19:28.250 the invasion, but the birth of an insurgency. 00:19:28.670 --> 00:19:31.430 And I really thought that was a good example 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:34.390 of coming full circle. The insurgency that my 00:19:34.390 --> 00:19:39.069 grandfather took part in set me on the path that 00:19:39.069 --> 00:19:41.529 indirectly justified another invasion of Iraq, 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:43.809 where the British were back on Iraqi soil and 00:19:43.809 --> 00:19:48.009 which produced an insurgency in the 21st century. 00:19:48.910 --> 00:19:51.250 Which took, again, the British and Americans 00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:54.289 by surprise. But I always remember on the eve 00:19:54.289 --> 00:19:56.630 of the 2003 Iraq War, using my grandfather as 00:19:56.630 --> 00:19:58.410 an example, don't be surprised if there was an 00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:01.930 insurgency emerging in 2003, I would say, based 00:20:01.930 --> 00:20:04.630 on my grandfather's story. And this is what I 00:20:04.630 --> 00:20:07.289 found is telling history through personal narratives, 00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:10.250 whether it's Freddie Mercury or my grandfather, 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:14.309 resonates a lot more than talking about, you 00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:17.859 know, these... Trans and abstract terms. Students 00:20:17.859 --> 00:20:20.319 resonate with the personal narrative. Absolutely. 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:23.019 So what did that teach you in terms of that experience 00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:29.440 in terms of doing research or sort of like how 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.039 it can be misused? Sure, sure. You know, everyone 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.599 always said that, you know, research, you know, 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:40.519 the research you do could serve. you know, the 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.079 powers that be. And I always thought, who would 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.200 ever read this obscure thesis I'm doing in Oxford? 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.920 But then, I mean, that case not only proved it, 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.579 but it has a much more valuable lesson, is that... 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.740 people in the public should always be skeptical 00:20:57.740 --> 00:21:00.339 of the evidence. It's really more great or less 00:21:00.339 --> 00:21:02.539 on critical thinking is when a government presents 00:21:02.539 --> 00:21:04.920 you with evidence saying this is the reason why 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:07.700 we should go to war. Now you should be more skeptical 00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:10.299 about those claims, whether it's in 2003 in Iraq 00:21:10.299 --> 00:21:15.039 or in 2025 when the U .S. attacked Iran or when 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.500 the U .S. is attacking Venezuela. Whenever evidence 00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:20.140 is saying provided that this is intelligence 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:22.839 that we have to ask, public should always be 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.619 skeptical that what is done. in the name of intelligence 00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:30.799 reports are not these documents that have absolute 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:38.539 proof that the so -called threat is there. You 00:21:38.539 --> 00:21:41.720 talked about part of your family. How about the 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:43.960 other part? So, yeah, that's a good question. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.460 My mom's side of the family are from Iraq. They're, 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:50.680 again, a prominent 12 Rishia family with parts 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.740 of their family originally coming from Kashmir. 00:21:53.019 --> 00:21:56.940 The al -Kashmiri family, for example, is my side 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:00.759 of my mom's family. Oh, wow. But the most interesting... 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.059 Part of that side of the family, and I've published 00:22:04.059 --> 00:22:06.799 about this, is my grandfather married a woman 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.079 who was a Syriac Orthodox Christian from Lebanon. 00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:15.339 And that side of the family, she died when my 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:17.180 mother was very young, my grandmother. Okay, 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:20.240 so tragically, both my grandmothers died in tragic 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.920 circumstances, both related to the poor nature 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:24.819 of public health, whether it was in East Africa 00:22:24.819 --> 00:22:27.950 or my mom, my grandmother's case in Iraq. And 00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:30.670 so that side of the family was never talked about, 00:22:30.690 --> 00:22:33.430 the Christian side of my family. And it was really, 00:22:33.509 --> 00:22:36.069 again in the year 2000, and the year 2000 was 00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:40.910 a great discovery of my family's past, was I 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:46.890 went to Lebanon. And more or less went into this 00:22:46.890 --> 00:22:48.990 city where I knew my grandmother was from and 00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:51.289 just simply asked around, does anyone know a 00:22:51.289 --> 00:22:54.309 woman? who married an Iraqi in the 1950s, an 00:22:54.309 --> 00:22:57.430 Iraqi Muslim in the 1950s, and was so scandalous 00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:00.789 that, yeah, people in this town called Zahli 00:23:00.789 --> 00:23:04.049 knew of my grandmother's story. And basically, 00:23:04.049 --> 00:23:06.509 it was just by asking around, I found an entire 00:23:06.509 --> 00:23:10.049 side of my grandmother's family. And that there 00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:12.970 was my grandmother, and I won't give away this 00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:14.990 story, because it's really a story that deserves 00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:17.349 its own. I found the Syriac Orthodox side of 00:23:17.349 --> 00:23:21.079 my family. And it's a very interesting interfaith 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:26.200 story. Their side of the family was, I am descendant, 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.059 my grandmother's uncle would have been the patriarch. 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.900 of the Syriac Orthodox Church. So the equivalent 00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:35.759 of the Pope for this church. So, you know, and 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.400 it was quite interesting that I learned a lot 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.140 about Middle Eastern Christianity. And it was 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:43.519 a great interfaith experience because for this 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.480 side of the family, it doesn't matter my religious 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.059 difference. They were always, I was their lost, 00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:51.980 you know, relative. And so it was not only a 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:54.420 fascinating case where I could learn about this 00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:57.079 Christian side of my family. The Syriac patriarch, 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:58.920 that's my great uncle, he's actually buried. 00:23:59.019 --> 00:24:02.759 in Kerala, India. And again, it's another story 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.980 of the British Empire. So in Kerala, India, of 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:07.799 course, there's the largest concentration of 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:09.880 Syriac Orthodox Christians. It's not in the Middle 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.519 East, the St. Thomas Christians. And the British 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:15.619 Empire asked him to go intervene in a doctrinal 00:24:15.619 --> 00:24:19.519 difference there. And the journey was so exhausting 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.920 that he ended up dying and he's buried in Kerala. 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:25.680 And I went in to visit what was basically his 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.839 shrine in India. Wow. I went, and it was a beautiful 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:33.880 journey. And so, you know, it's quite an interesting 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.319 story about what the decline of World War, what 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.279 the decline of the Ottoman Empire meant for both 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.220 sides of my family. For one grandfather, it was 00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:44.819 fighting the British, escaping to Zanzibar. For 00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:46.779 the other side of the family, it was a great 00:24:46.779 --> 00:24:49.819 uncle who eventually was not only given a medal 00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:52.700 by the Ottoman Sultan, he was also recognized. 00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:55.109 recognized by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. He was given 00:24:55.109 --> 00:24:58.759 medals by him for keeping the Syriacs. More or 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:00.779 less, I think, intact members of the new Turkish 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:05.779 Republic. And eventually, so not only would my 00:25:05.779 --> 00:25:08.440 great uncle have met Ataturk, but then getting 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:11.819 this request from the British Empire to mediate 00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:15.500 British India. And so both sides of the story 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:18.460 are kind of like a microcosm of the Indian Ocean. 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:23.420 And this is why always my dream would be to have 00:25:23.420 --> 00:25:26.059 that perfect academic position. And you know 00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:29.180 how our disciplines are. the Middle East studies 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:32.539 prevent us from doing West Indian Ocean studies 00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:35.599 and so on and so forth. But you see, these categories 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.839 are really arbitrary. Exactly. And I just use 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.480 my two sides of the family just to demonstrate 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.220 that the monsoon winds would explain a lot more 00:25:45.220 --> 00:25:48.799 of our region than these artificial geopolitical 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.599 blocks would create. That's right. Yeah. No, 00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:54.579 I mean, I think even like historically, culturally, 00:25:54.740 --> 00:25:58.210 there's just so much. I think that's the thing. 00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:00.130 People think, okay, well, people just kind of 00:26:00.130 --> 00:26:03.289 stayed where they were in the past. But there 00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:04.750 was actually a lot of movement. A lot of movement. 00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:07.109 There's a lot of movement despite the technological 00:26:07.109 --> 00:26:10.730 hurdles. Exactly. The steamship really, I mean, 00:26:10.730 --> 00:26:13.170 it's not an accident that Titanic did so well 00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:16.150 as a film because it tells these stories of these 00:26:16.150 --> 00:26:19.029 epic journeys that we take for granted, perilous 00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:21.410 epic journeys. Right, exactly. Yeah, the steamship, 00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:23.829 the steamboat was very much a story of my family. 00:26:24.029 --> 00:26:27.759 Yeah. Yeah. And the railroads, of course. The 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:30.599 British built railroads, of course. I mean, my 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.940 father's family would have gone, they would have 00:26:33.940 --> 00:26:36.220 left Zanzibar through that north -south axis 00:26:36.220 --> 00:26:38.200 of the British Empire, so coveted in Africa. 00:26:39.609 --> 00:26:41.430 I mean, that was also very interesting just to 00:26:41.430 --> 00:26:44.869 think about how the empire stitched all these 00:26:44.869 --> 00:26:48.390 parts of the world together in very unique ways. 00:26:48.910 --> 00:26:51.349 I mean, the Gujaratis, whether we're talking 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:54.210 about Zohran Mamdani's family. And it's quite 00:26:54.210 --> 00:26:57.289 interesting that I met Zohran. Oh, really? His 00:26:57.289 --> 00:27:00.569 father was at a conference in Istanbul. And so 00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:02.910 I knew the Mamdani last name. So I approached 00:27:02.910 --> 00:27:04.730 the father and there was this young, this was 00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:07.349 in the early 2000s, there was a young Zohran 00:27:07.349 --> 00:27:09.970 next to him. Did they recognize who you were? 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:14.190 Mahmoud Mamdani didn't recognize my father. My 00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:16.049 grandfather, sorry. Oh yeah, he absolutely didn't 00:27:16.049 --> 00:27:18.210 recognize my grandfather when I told him who 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:20.990 he was. It's great just to have these academics, 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:24.789 whether it's Mahmoud Mamdani or Faisal Debji, 00:27:24.930 --> 00:27:29.250 all know my grandfather, but my family's majestic 00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:33.230 cinema in Zanzibar, they're still involved. No, 00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:39.000 it's amazing. That's great. And so what, I mean, 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:45.200 yes, if you were able to design your ideal. research 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.460 project and you had as much money as you wanted 00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:49.980 to, what would you do? Oh, it would be a research 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.759 project taking these personal narratives and 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:57.319 bringing them together in not only kind of written 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:00.700 form, but using the new technology, whether it's 00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:03.359 artificial intelligence or multimedia, digital 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.279 history, and more or less tell this story in 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.940 a single cohesive narrative. I think the way 00:28:10.940 --> 00:28:13.680 academia is structured, we're not rewarded for 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.000 these kind of... project you know it has to be 00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.779 Middle East studies or you know African studies 00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:24.099 or but this is really not only a story of interfaith 00:28:24.380 --> 00:28:26.519 It's also a story of how the environment shaped 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.420 us. But it's also a tragic story of how climate 00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:31.440 change is going to affect these areas we study. 00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:34.079 I mean, Zanzibar is already having problems with 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.140 its mangroves and saltwater intrusion. And, you 00:28:38.140 --> 00:28:40.299 know, whether we're talking about states like 00:28:40.299 --> 00:28:43.000 the Maldives or Seychelles, which were always 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.839 stops on my grandfather's journey to India. We 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.819 can't forget this is about also preserving a 00:28:47.819 --> 00:28:51.900 place that is... that are also perilous going 00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:54.480 into the future. And so that's why it's my ideal 00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:02.019 project. It's to bring attention to lands that 00:29:02.019 --> 00:29:03.980 are very much being threatened by climate change. 00:29:04.819 --> 00:29:08.759 And this is a podcast that's also directed at 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:12.059 students. So what advice do you have for students 00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:16.099 who maybe are interested in kind of pursuing 00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:19.039 Middle East studies or interested in kind of 00:29:19.609 --> 00:29:22.049 religious studies or interfaith work in the future 00:29:22.049 --> 00:29:24.710 what should they do i have a great uh lesson 00:29:24.710 --> 00:29:28.849 for all of you and it's um find your study your 00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:33.250 passions Don't give in too much to your parents' 00:29:33.390 --> 00:29:35.549 pressure. Now, because, I mean, for a good part 00:29:35.549 --> 00:29:37.410 of you, you're probably going to have connections 00:29:37.410 --> 00:29:39.970 to the region. And this is the other thing that 00:29:39.970 --> 00:29:42.029 unites our regions, whether I'm talking about 00:29:42.029 --> 00:29:44.809 South Asia, the Middle East, Africa, is we've 00:29:44.809 --> 00:29:46.769 always told to go into the hard sciences, law, 00:29:46.950 --> 00:29:50.390 medicine, engineering. And I really resisted 00:29:50.390 --> 00:29:53.109 that. And I'm glad I did because, I mean, the 00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:55.890 ability to document these stories, to take my 00:29:55.890 --> 00:29:59.210 father to Zanzibar was all because I resisted 00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:02.119 their... pressure. And so, you know, it's a very 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:04.559 easy, Joseph Campbell, that one great scholar 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.059 of mythology always said, follow the bliss. I 00:30:07.059 --> 00:30:09.740 say, follow your passion. And if you have a question 00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:13.420 about what your passion is, again, I'll do a 00:30:13.420 --> 00:30:16.539 very academic exercise with you. Passion is coming 00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:18.980 from the Greek word that gives us pathos, where 00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:22.119 we get sympathy, empathy from, pathetic from. 00:30:22.339 --> 00:30:25.000 And it's also the other Greek word in another 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.359 etymological direction that gives us passion. 00:30:29.309 --> 00:30:32.410 And so passion is not what we think about like 00:30:32.410 --> 00:30:34.849 the telenovelas that you probably associate with 00:30:34.849 --> 00:30:37.509 South America. Passion literally means suffering. 00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:39.450 And if you think about it, you know, when you 00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:40.970 talk about the passion of Christ, you're not 00:30:40.970 --> 00:30:42.829 talking about Jesus Christ being a passionate 00:30:42.829 --> 00:30:45.470 dude. You're talking about somebody who's suffering. 00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:47.990 And so if you're having trouble finding your 00:30:47.990 --> 00:30:51.569 passion, you know, ask yourself this. What is 00:30:51.569 --> 00:30:54.490 it without which in your life would you suffer? 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.210 And if you have the answer, you have your passion, 00:30:57.289 --> 00:30:59.829 and I would say, go ahead and pursue it. And 00:30:59.829 --> 00:31:02.109 ideally, you could pursue it academically. If 00:31:02.109 --> 00:31:04.250 not, you could do it. But you might not even 00:31:04.250 --> 00:31:06.430 know what your passion is unless you think about 00:31:06.430 --> 00:31:09.369 it in this term. And for me, the pastor was my 00:31:09.369 --> 00:31:12.009 passion. Because my family wouldn't tell it to 00:31:12.009 --> 00:31:14.589 me reliably. I always had to push them. I always 00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:16.630 had to push my father for stories about Zanzibar. 00:31:16.849 --> 00:31:19.089 I always had to tell my mom, tell me about the 00:31:19.089 --> 00:31:20.750 Lebanese side of the family that you're hiding, 00:31:20.869 --> 00:31:23.630 or tell me how bad it was in Iraq with the, you 00:31:23.630 --> 00:31:25.910 know, the mohabarat, the secret police that sent 00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:28.490 you fleeing. And I never could get full comprehensive 00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:31.069 answers. I had to discover my past. And that 00:31:31.069 --> 00:31:33.289 became my passion, uncovering this past that 00:31:33.289 --> 00:31:36.220 was denied to me. Okay, so it's kind of a search 00:31:36.220 --> 00:31:39.000 for identity. Yeah, identity, yeah. I think all 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:41.059 of us would suffer if we were denied our identity. 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:43.799 Of course, yeah. And so I think that's a good 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:46.279 way of saying, you know, always learn about your 00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.480 identity. And it's not, you know, for all of 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:51.700 you, all students, no matter what, if you think 00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:54.480 your identity is boring, that, you know, I'm 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.160 just a white guy from the U .S., no, because 00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:58.220 in every single one of my history classes, this 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:01.250 is my assignment. None of you have a boring history. 00:32:01.369 --> 00:32:03.410 You just haven't bothered looking. Or the way 00:32:03.410 --> 00:32:06.029 your parents told you it was boring. And so in 00:32:06.029 --> 00:32:08.309 my history courses, that's it. To graduate, that's 00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:11.029 something AI can't do for you, is you have to 00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:13.390 discover your past. How did the past make you? 00:32:13.529 --> 00:32:16.190 That's wonderful, yeah. I feel the same way in 00:32:16.190 --> 00:32:18.950 terms of being inspired by my own background 00:32:18.950 --> 00:32:21.089 in history, and I think that took me. For me, 00:32:21.089 --> 00:32:24.890 it was also, I think, 9 -11 also. I think in 00:32:24.890 --> 00:32:27.990 kind of the... I think that also kind of was 00:32:27.990 --> 00:32:30.369 a turning point. That's interesting. For me, 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:32.650 it was the 9 -1 -Gulf War. And I was a teenager. 00:32:32.789 --> 00:32:35.410 And that's why I wrote my thesis on it. 9 -11, 00:32:35.589 --> 00:32:37.470 of course, was a turning point as well. Yeah, 00:32:37.569 --> 00:32:40.049 exactly. And that's kind of how I measure my 00:32:40.049 --> 00:32:42.569 life. It's pre -9 -11, post -9 -11. Yeah. Because 00:32:42.569 --> 00:32:44.990 you basically... I mean, I think growing up as 00:32:44.990 --> 00:32:49.049 a minority in the United States... It's definitely 00:32:49.049 --> 00:32:51.130 a search for identity. But then there are these 00:32:51.130 --> 00:32:53.390 catalyzing moments also that force you also to 00:32:53.390 --> 00:32:55.369 explain yourself. And to be able to explain yourself, 00:32:55.490 --> 00:32:57.609 you have to know who you are. Exactly. And there's 00:32:57.609 --> 00:32:58.769 this whole search that goes into it. That's very 00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:00.930 true. You really do need to know your history 00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:03.509 to rebut arguments that Muslims are inherently 00:33:03.509 --> 00:33:06.029 terrorists or that Islam is inherently violent. 00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:08.150 And you really do need to go into the history 00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:13.450 and just show examples to disprove those arguments. 00:33:14.849 --> 00:33:16.990 Well, thank you so much. My pleasure. I really 00:33:16.990 --> 00:33:19.230 enjoy your really good questions. Wonderful, 00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:21.069 wonderful. And I want to thank you for the work 00:33:21.069 --> 00:33:23.569 you're doing on my family because I can't wait 00:33:23.569 --> 00:33:26.230 to learn from you about my family's past. Of 00:33:26.230 --> 00:33:28.329 course, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thank you 00:33:28.329 --> 00:33:30.390 so much. My pleasure. All right. Thank you.