WEBVTT 00:00:05.230 --> 00:00:09.330 Welcome back to the Interfaiths program. I'm 00:00:09.330 --> 00:00:12.949 your host, Iqbal Akhtar, and we are here with 00:00:12.949 --> 00:00:19.019 a... power couple Stuart and Diane who are pillars 00:00:19.019 --> 00:00:21.160 of the Jewish community here and they do a lot 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:23.859 of remarkable work here in Israel in terms of 00:00:23.859 --> 00:00:27.339 supporting humanitarian causes and they've been 00:00:27.339 --> 00:00:30.480 an integral part of our Muslim Jewish dialogue 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.000 group and so we're going to start a little bit 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:35.359 about their backgrounds what got them interested 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:42.420 their own identity and kind of evolution in terms 00:00:42.420 --> 00:00:45.460 of being Jewish and how they understand some 00:00:45.460 --> 00:00:47.520 of the challenges that we have today and their 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:51.259 hopes for the future in terms of developing interfaith 00:00:51.259 --> 00:00:55.079 dialogue and relationships and particularly Jewish 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.240 -Muslim sort of engagement, which I think is 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.039 something that is at the heart of the work that 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:05.480 they do. So who wants to start? You start. Okay, 00:01:05.500 --> 00:01:08.140 start. Give us a little bit about your background. 00:01:08.260 --> 00:01:11.489 Where do you come from? Who are you? Well, since 00:01:11.489 --> 00:01:15.810 I think it's important. I was born in 1940, which 00:01:15.810 --> 00:01:19.230 was eight years before the establishment of the 00:01:19.230 --> 00:01:22.129 State of Israel. So I was kind of just becoming 00:01:22.129 --> 00:01:27.489 aware of things. And that does color my long 00:01:27.489 --> 00:01:31.290 -term views of things. But I was born into a 00:01:31.290 --> 00:01:34.909 family. We have four of us, three boys and a 00:01:34.909 --> 00:01:39.890 girl, in a... pretty blue -collar community with 00:01:39.890 --> 00:01:44.370 a well -established middle -class Jewish community 00:01:44.370 --> 00:01:51.109 and my family was not religious in the sense 00:01:51.109 --> 00:01:58.230 of observance, but we were very Zionistic, very 00:01:58.230 --> 00:02:03.390 involved as I remember in the state of Israel 00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:08.490 once it began to be established. And we were 00:02:08.490 --> 00:02:11.189 very Zionistic. My parents contributed to it. 00:02:11.490 --> 00:02:14.229 They participated in the groups that discussed 00:02:14.229 --> 00:02:19.030 it. And I guess some of that rubbed off. My dad 00:02:19.030 --> 00:02:26.590 was a meatpacker. And I, as in many fairly large 00:02:26.590 --> 00:02:29.689 Jewish families, was thought, come into the business. 00:02:30.129 --> 00:02:32.810 And so I worked from the time I was very small 00:02:32.810 --> 00:02:36.159 as butcher. which kind of plays itself out later 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:39.520 on in life. So I knew what it was like to work. 00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:44.060 I was active in high school, a fairly normal 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:48.400 high school, public school life and education. 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.099 I was president of the student government. I 00:02:52.099 --> 00:02:56.199 was active in gymnastics. And then went on to 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:58.500 undergraduate school at Franklin and Marshall, 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.840 a small liberal arts school in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. 00:03:03.710 --> 00:03:08.729 where we were also exposed to the Amish and Mennonite 00:03:08.729 --> 00:03:11.569 people that were a little different and it was 00:03:11.569 --> 00:03:14.770 it was it was an education in itself was an education 00:03:14.770 --> 00:03:18.530 and made me very interested in some of the other 00:03:18.530 --> 00:03:24.930 ways that people live their lives out. I went 00:03:24.930 --> 00:03:27.490 then to med school at the University of Pennsylvania 00:03:27.490 --> 00:03:34.590 in Philadelphia and then did my residency in 00:03:34.590 --> 00:03:39.250 radiology and then deciding that I didn't like 00:03:39.250 --> 00:03:43.550 that. I had been very fortunate to be exposed 00:03:43.550 --> 00:03:49.110 to one of the early pioneers in echocardiography 00:03:49.110 --> 00:03:52.009 and use of diagnostic ultrasound, Claude Joyner, 00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:59.039 in 1962 when I came to med school and he kind 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.099 of took me under his wing and exposed me to echocardiography 00:04:02.099 --> 00:04:04.900 which then of course played itself out later 00:04:04.900 --> 00:04:09.340 in my career. I was also interested in nuclear 00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:13.180 medicine and particularly in nuclear cardiology 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:17.439 and decided that I really didn't like radiology. 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:21.480 I liked the physics and clinical aspects of both 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.439 echocardiography and nuclear cardiology, and 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:27.839 so another Penn graduate, Manny Viamonte, who 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.459 was head of the radiology department here at 00:04:30.459 --> 00:04:32.540 the University of Miami, asked me to come down, 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:38.319 start those two areas, and complete a residency 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.759 in nuclear medicine, which is what I did. So 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.259 I stayed at the university for almost 10 years. 00:04:44.949 --> 00:04:49.069 and started other programs in both those fields 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:51.129 and ran them for many years in other hospitals. 00:04:54.310 --> 00:04:59.029 As you can tell, I kind of like physics and a 00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:00.829 kind of combination of clinical medicine and 00:05:00.829 --> 00:05:07.189 physics. But I was here during the influx from 00:05:07.189 --> 00:05:13.860 71 until 80 of the Cuban migration. was fascinating 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:22.699 to me. But I don't have a very interesting background. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:28.060 That kind of sums up where I am. I've since been 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:31.680 in private practice and taken an interest in 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:37.540 what we do because I think that, as I pointed 00:05:37.540 --> 00:05:45.420 out in the beginning, my age tends to tends to 00:05:45.420 --> 00:05:49.579 have associated with it certain prejudices and 00:05:49.579 --> 00:05:53.500 biases and there's certain aspects of that that 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:56.680 are a little bit confusing to me. I had one patient 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:02.480 from Saudi Arabia who I used to see periodically 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:06.560 and he would always hug me and say cousin you're 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:11.319 my cousin and I guess I had Harvard and still, 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.939 to some extent, harbor doubt about my relationship 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:19.980 with Islam. And I thought, gosh, that's true. 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:26.019 We are cousins. Why all this animosity? And I 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:29.180 wasn't ignorant of the history, of a 3 ,000 -year 00:06:29.180 --> 00:06:32.259 history. But nevertheless, it created some confusion 00:06:32.259 --> 00:06:39.120 and some desire to kind of learn more about what 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:41.259 it was that I seemed to have these prejudices 00:06:41.259 --> 00:06:45.519 about and that's what took me into doing what 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.459 we do now. I think to some extent those same 00:06:49.459 --> 00:06:54.699 prejudices are different from the younger generation 00:06:54.699 --> 00:07:01.360 and sometimes I wonder if they hold us back or 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:05.800 hold me back but one thing I have learned that's 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:09.240 been interesting is that through the dialogue, 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:15.540 it is possible to, with time and some confrontation, 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:20.319 to trust. And I've always felt that in order 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.379 to solve a problem, to have a dialogue, die, 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:28.500 it's two. Two people have to talk. Two groups 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:31.620 have to talk. But two people talk and they learn 00:07:31.620 --> 00:07:38.670 to trust. And even friendship. to some extent 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:42.509 comes out of this with all of its complications 00:07:42.509 --> 00:07:47.430 and all of its expectations but I have learned 00:07:47.430 --> 00:07:50.589 that it's possible and that's why I continue 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:57.370 and why I hope that you know perhaps if you know 00:07:57.370 --> 00:08:01.209 that others will see that we can struggle with 00:08:01.209 --> 00:08:04.790 this and come out of it understanding one another 00:08:04.790 --> 00:08:08.930 a little bit, trusting one another, perhaps more 00:08:08.930 --> 00:08:12.029 so even than understanding, and that that can 00:08:12.029 --> 00:08:15.810 serve as a basis for going forward. Absolutely, 00:08:16.029 --> 00:08:19.689 yeah. That's been very, very important, I think, 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:21.250 the trust part of it. I think the other thing 00:08:21.250 --> 00:08:24.350 that has dawned on me as well is just that how, 00:08:24.529 --> 00:08:29.029 in a way, we live within our own worlds and our 00:08:29.029 --> 00:08:30.949 faith traditions, and they're things that are 00:08:30.949 --> 00:08:35.179 self -evident. that sometimes need to be said. 00:08:35.379 --> 00:08:37.299 And that was one of the things that, you know, 00:08:37.299 --> 00:08:41.059 with our anti -Semitism statements and stuff 00:08:41.059 --> 00:08:44.159 like that. I mean, I thought it was self -evident 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.379 that people realized that the majority, you know, 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:50.440 I would say majority Muslims are not okay. I 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:52.220 mean, they completely condemned that sort of 00:08:52.220 --> 00:08:55.889 violence. It was unacceptable. But then, you 00:08:55.889 --> 00:08:57.470 know, actually it was because of you, Stuart. 00:08:57.649 --> 00:08:59.830 Like, you would ask me, I was like, where are 00:08:59.830 --> 00:09:02.370 the, you had messaged me, I think earlier about, 00:09:02.470 --> 00:09:04.809 you know, where the Muslim, moderate Muslim voices 00:09:04.809 --> 00:09:06.750 and where you've seen that. And then I would 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:09.610 actually, I was like, well, I'm sure. Everybody's 00:09:09.610 --> 00:09:11.570 been saying stuff. And then I looked online, 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:13.210 I was searching, and I was like, there are very 00:09:13.210 --> 00:09:16.529 few statements that are actually condemning anti 00:09:16.529 --> 00:09:18.929 -Semitic violence from Muslims. And so I was 00:09:18.929 --> 00:09:23.269 like, wow, that's very surprising to me. So I 00:09:23.269 --> 00:09:25.049 think that that's part of it is also just being 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:30.889 able to communicate that. and learning what is 00:09:30.889 --> 00:09:33.389 the language of communicating in a pluralistic 00:09:33.389 --> 00:09:35.450 democracy, that there are ways that you need 00:09:35.450 --> 00:09:38.289 to say things, you need to support people, you 00:09:38.289 --> 00:09:40.649 need to be able to articulate your position and 00:09:40.649 --> 00:09:43.590 your viewpoint. And I think that's been really, 00:09:43.669 --> 00:09:46.009 really helpful, just sort of being able to have 00:09:46.009 --> 00:09:48.730 these conversations and having that honesty. 00:09:49.149 --> 00:09:53.110 Yeah. That's been very, very helpful. It also, 00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:57.269 you know, what comes along with it is an expectation. 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:00.860 And sometimes those expectations aren't completely 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:03.840 met and we take a step back. But then we step 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:05.519 forward and say, you know, you didn't meet my 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.879 expectation. I wrote you because I feel close 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.460 to you now. And we've had a number of personal 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:17.340 meetings. I would expect that when things happen, 00:10:17.500 --> 00:10:21.159 that you say something as I feel I would. And 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:26.370 you responded. And that reinforced. That relationship. 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:28.529 So we can take another step forward. Right, exactly. 00:10:29.129 --> 00:10:33.490 Absolutely. So Diane, talk to us about you. So 00:10:33.490 --> 00:10:35.970 I have a very different story than most people. 00:10:36.490 --> 00:10:41.990 I was raised Catholic. And when I was young, 00:10:42.070 --> 00:10:45.309 I was married and I got divorced. And at that 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:49.470 time, the Catholic Church really didn't embrace 00:10:49.470 --> 00:10:56.039 people who were divorced. And I decided if the 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:59.879 Catholic Church doesn't want me, then I don't 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:03.019 really want to be part of a faith that I don't 00:11:03.019 --> 00:11:06.500 feel comfortable accepting. So I really was not 00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:10.519 doing anything. And my parents, my father was 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:15.480 fairly observant. So I saw that in him. And I 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.139 didn't really do anything about it. And then 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:23.379 I met Stuart. And he made it pretty clear that 00:11:23.379 --> 00:11:24.919 even if we weren't going to have children or 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.059 whatever, that he was not getting involved with 00:11:27.059 --> 00:11:31.259 somebody who wasn't Jewish. So I had been thinking 00:11:31.259 --> 00:11:36.259 about Judaism because my father worked in the 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:38.799 garment industry, which was primarily Jewish. 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.139 And we had a lot of friends, unlike most. Christians 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:46.220 that don't really know Jews. I knew a lot of 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:48.679 Jews. A lot of our friends, we went to their 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:51.399 celebrations and stuff. So it wasn't foreign. 00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:55.440 And I kind of thought to myself, maybe I should 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.360 explore this. But I didn't do anything formal. 00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:59.559 So when he said that, I said, you know, this 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.820 is as good a time as any to do it. So I went 00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:06.259 down that path and I became a Jew by choice. 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.779 But part of it is that I kind of made the commitment 00:12:09.779 --> 00:12:13.889 to myself that There wasn't a reason to give 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:16.929 up a religion to embrace another if you weren't 00:12:16.929 --> 00:12:19.389 going to understand that religion. Because part 00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:22.470 of my problem with Catholicism is I really didn't 00:12:22.470 --> 00:12:24.590 understand it that much. You know, you just grow 00:12:24.590 --> 00:12:26.429 up and you learn certain things and you do them. 00:12:26.529 --> 00:12:29.990 And when you don't do them, you have to go atone 00:12:29.990 --> 00:12:32.690 for them. And that didn't go with me, really. 00:12:32.789 --> 00:12:38.629 So I always credit... my husband, my mother -in 00:12:38.629 --> 00:12:41.049 -law for teaching me about Judaism, my rabbi. 00:12:41.250 --> 00:12:44.870 And then I stumbled onto Hadassah, which is a 00:12:44.870 --> 00:12:48.110 women's Zionist organization. It's the largest 00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:51.570 Jewish volunteer organization in the world. And 00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:59.149 they really taught me about the connection that 00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:01.830 you were embracing, not just a religion, but 00:13:01.830 --> 00:13:06.340 a peoplehood. And so I really learned about the 00:13:06.340 --> 00:13:10.259 culture, about the religious practices, but mostly 00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.799 I learned about Israel. So I learned one of the 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:17.240 things that you learn is that to be Jewish is 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.440 to embrace the land of Israel, the history, the 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.100 people, you know, how we started there, how we 00:13:24.100 --> 00:13:27.600 remain there, how we have been expelled, come 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:31.000 back. But still, we survive. And then, of course, 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.559 the Holocaust played a role in creating the state. 00:13:34.100 --> 00:13:37.980 So I really learned a lot about Israel. And I 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:40.340 kind of fell in love. I fell in love with the 00:13:40.340 --> 00:13:43.419 country, the people with the concept. I guess 00:13:43.419 --> 00:13:45.200 it was because I was looking for something. I 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.460 was really looking for something to connect to. 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:50.000 The funny thing, my mother, I thought she'd be 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.259 upset when I was converting. She said, well, 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.960 at least you're going to do something. So my 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.259 parents were fine with me converting because 00:13:57.259 --> 00:14:00.120 they were just happy to see me have some kind 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:06.000 of faith -based practice. And one of the things 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.279 I learned through Hadassah was that in Israel, 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.179 despite what people might think, there is cooperation 00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:18.539 between the Arabs and the Jews because they have 00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:21.450 to. They live in the same country. They use the 00:14:21.450 --> 00:14:23.610 same health care system. They go to the same 00:14:23.610 --> 00:14:27.710 schools. So at Hadassah, it was very easy. I 00:14:27.710 --> 00:14:32.590 mean, we have 25 % of the staff is Palestinian. 00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:37.450 More are Arabs, Israeli Arabs. When patients 00:14:37.450 --> 00:14:39.830 come in the door, they check their religion at 00:14:39.830 --> 00:14:42.669 the door, and the caregiver checks his religion 00:14:42.669 --> 00:14:47.110 when he comes to work. and the Arab is in bed 00:14:47.110 --> 00:14:50.009 next to the Jew and the Druze and the Christian 00:14:50.009 --> 00:14:53.970 and whatever. And it seems for the most part 00:14:53.970 --> 00:14:58.269 to work. We have remarkable stories about, you 00:14:58.269 --> 00:15:01.269 know, Palestinian doctors who saved the life 00:15:01.269 --> 00:15:04.549 of a Jewish child and now he goes to the bar 00:15:04.549 --> 00:15:08.269 mitzvahs and the weddings and vice versa. So 00:15:08.269 --> 00:15:13.700 I really... I really believed in that and believed 00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:15.820 that it can work and that believed that medicine 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:20.139 could be a bridge to peace. And I'm a nurse midwife 00:15:20.139 --> 00:15:22.220 by profession. I'm a nurse. So that was kind 00:15:22.220 --> 00:15:25.220 of part of me was that medicine is a tool that 00:15:25.220 --> 00:15:29.220 we can use to build bridges. So when October 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:32.279 7th came, it kind of turned everything upside 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.240 down because there were struggles in the hospital 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.340 with the staff and just like here, everybody 00:15:38.340 --> 00:15:43.519 trying to deal with. this kumbaya aspect you 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:45.620 have of everything and that you can make everything 00:15:45.620 --> 00:15:49.019 better. And then these things happen. So when 00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:51.620 I heard about the Unbiased Initiative, I thought, 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:56.600 you know, I feel really strongly that we all 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.679 really are just human beings and have common 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:04.539 issues and want to solve them together. And that 00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:06.399 maybe this is something I, and you know, after 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.759 October 7th, everybody feels like they want to 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.179 do something. Right. So when they asked me to 00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:15.019 get involved, I said, yes, because I'm comfortable 00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:19.139 with this work. I don't have a lot of, because 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:21.779 of how I grew up, I don't have a lot of preconceived 00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:24.899 notions about Arabs, Jews, and whatever. It's 00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:29.080 mostly what I've learned as an adult. So I thought 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.600 it was a good fit. And I've enjoyed it because 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:36.360 it's... You know, it does challenge a lot of 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.419 the things that you think are fine and you don't 00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:41.340 have to worry about it. It does challenge that. 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.259 But by the same token, I feel that once people 00:16:45.259 --> 00:16:48.000 know each other, it's very hard to hate people 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.000 that you're having a meal with. Right, exactly. 00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:53.639 And that you know their son and that they talk 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.120 about their wife or something. So I think it's 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.320 important work. And I hope that we, we always 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.820 use the phrase, move the needle. But if we can. 00:17:03.569 --> 00:17:06.849 If 10 people can change their idea about things, 00:17:06.970 --> 00:17:08.890 I think that that's a start. We're not going 00:17:08.890 --> 00:17:11.109 to change the world, but we can do it. And I 00:17:11.109 --> 00:17:13.309 feel like through Hadassah, I try to make a bigger 00:17:13.309 --> 00:17:16.509 change. And then through this, a smaller change. 00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:20.190 Absolutely. I mean, you have this interesting 00:17:20.190 --> 00:17:22.069 perspective because you're kind of an insider 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:26.250 -outsider. What has been your general impression 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:31.869 of your engagement with... With with Muslims 00:17:31.869 --> 00:17:36.150 because you you You know, you kind of convert 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:39.529 it into Judaism you all you work with with Muslims 00:17:39.529 --> 00:17:42.829 in Israel and also now you're getting to know 00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:44.990 people here in the United States What do you 00:17:44.990 --> 00:17:48.349 see are the commonalities into the differences 00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:50.849 in terms? It's fascinating because you know, 00:17:50.869 --> 00:17:52.990 I had to learn about Jewish practice So I know 00:17:52.990 --> 00:17:55.549 a lot about more about Jewish than a lot of Jews 00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:57.809 do exactly My friends call me and say what do 00:17:57.809 --> 00:18:00.559 we do for that holiday? So does your husband. 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:07.519 So we're so similar. It's really so sad that 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.400 we really are cousins. Somebody was talking about 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:13.980 burial practices and how quick you have a funeral. 00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:16.420 I said, that's exactly the way Jews do things. 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.680 We do the same thing. So it is sad. But look, 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.500 politics is responsible for most of the world's 00:18:23.500 --> 00:18:27.480 ills and challenges. And I think if left to our 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.900 own devices, we would all get along because it's 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:31.920 much better for us. Because all we really want 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.420 is to send our kids to school and have a home 00:18:35.420 --> 00:18:40.000 and raise our kids and have enough to eat and 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.039 whatever. Do we really care about these other 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.960 things? I don't think so. But we're forced into 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:50.140 those positions. And I work with a lot of, we 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:54.240 have a lot of initiatives in Hadassah. to train 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.619 Palestinian nurses and doctors to go back to 00:18:57.619 --> 00:18:59.720 their community. I'm involved with a group called 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.319 Nurses in the Middle East, and they do that. 00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:07.980 So I have very positive opinion of Muslim health 00:19:07.980 --> 00:19:09.839 care workers. I mean, that's my experience and 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.599 how dedicated they are to their community, how 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:17.900 they want to learn and help and how we learn 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:20.400 things from them. So I really didn't have that. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.500 kind of ingrained thing like, oh, let's see what 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:31.859 happens. But October 7th, you know, what's that 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:35.799 phrase where it's like it shakes you up a little 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:38.920 bit and you think, was I just being naive? So 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:43.220 I'm trying to push that down and just say, no, 00:19:43.299 --> 00:19:46.869 we can go back to the way things were. Because 00:19:46.869 --> 00:19:48.730 it's not the first time this has happened in 00:19:48.730 --> 00:19:51.890 history, that there's clashes between different 00:19:51.890 --> 00:19:55.589 cultures, people, and you have to overcome it. 00:19:55.609 --> 00:19:57.549 I think the challenge is for us to overcome it 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:00.849 in a positive way. Yeah, I mean, I think that 00:20:00.849 --> 00:20:02.730 it's been very interesting because I've never 00:20:02.730 --> 00:20:06.369 been to Israel. I'm probably going to go in November. 00:20:06.849 --> 00:20:08.789 So there's a conference that I've been invited 00:20:08.789 --> 00:20:10.529 to the University of Haifa. So I think that'd 00:20:10.529 --> 00:20:13.150 be really interesting to go see. Haifa is a largely 00:20:13.150 --> 00:20:16.170 an Arab town. Yeah, and they have a really good 00:20:16.170 --> 00:20:19.230 interfaith studies program there at the university. 00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:24.369 So I'll be giving a lecture there. But I think 00:20:24.369 --> 00:20:27.640 that's been... something very interesting to 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:32.900 hear and understand Israel from your perspectives, 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.660 as people that are kind of going there quite 00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:38.400 often, just to understand kind of the complexity 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.339 and diversity of the society. Because I think 00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:43.119 that's another thing is that if you've never 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:49.059 been there, you assume things about the society. 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:51.920 And I think that that's something that in the 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.730 long run, That's my hope with the Abraham Accords 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:58.890 as well, is once you actually start having Arabs 00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:01.430 going, hopefully it goes to Saudi Arabia and 00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:03.690 other places, you have people coming back and 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:06.369 forth, they'll really be able to have that citizen 00:21:06.369 --> 00:21:09.069 -to -citizen diplomacy. I think that's something 00:21:09.069 --> 00:21:11.420 that's remarkable about it. the programs we have 00:21:11.420 --> 00:21:13.119 in America, like the Fulbright and all these 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:15.420 sorts of programs where once you have people 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:18.440 to people connections across societies, across 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.940 civilizations, you're able to kind of change 00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.279 people's entire perspectives in terms of like 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.000 how they relate their understanding. And I think 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.039 that that barrier, the fact that a lot of the 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.200 country, Muslim countries don't recognize Israel 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.279 and that their people don't go there. They're 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.839 not able to see what a remarkable society Israel 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.380 is and to create it from such a short period 00:21:38.380 --> 00:21:42.319 of time into a very dynamic and prosperous society 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.059 that has its own challenges as well and its own 00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:48.799 problems. But to see that, I think that's quite 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.720 an achievement in that, you know, the society 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.119 is able to build and create things. I think that's 00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:58.779 also something that's really valuable because 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:00.160 when you go to a lot of these other countries 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.000 in the Middle East right now, they tend to be 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.740 purely consumer societies. They just buy things, 00:22:06.980 --> 00:22:10.049 but then rarely are they producing. technologies, 00:22:10.210 --> 00:22:12.269 ideas, things like that. And I think that's something 00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:14.690 that they could probably learn from Israel as 00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:17.470 well, kind of the entrepreneurship sort of as 00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:20.490 an idea for society. And especially, you know, 00:22:20.529 --> 00:22:21.829 you're constrained, right? You're constrained 00:22:21.829 --> 00:22:25.809 by geography, by climate. um but despite those 00:22:25.809 --> 00:22:28.049 constraints you're able to develop and construct 00:22:28.049 --> 00:22:31.069 um and grow things i think that's really quite 00:22:31.069 --> 00:22:32.910 a remarkable experience so i think just sort 00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:35.190 of that lived reality i think would be in the 00:22:35.190 --> 00:22:37.990 long run something very very helpful for muslims 00:22:37.990 --> 00:22:40.789 and jews and to be able to do yeah and i think 00:22:40.789 --> 00:22:44.450 that they've tried that i that if when you get 00:22:44.450 --> 00:22:46.650 around the existential issues which is a big 00:22:46.650 --> 00:22:51.329 issue Israel has a lot to teach and they want 00:22:51.329 --> 00:22:54.809 to share. They've already done that in many places 00:22:54.809 --> 00:22:57.890 in South America, for example. And their handling 00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:05.049 of water conservation, of growing products, is 00:23:05.049 --> 00:23:09.769 really secondary to none. And I believe what 00:23:09.769 --> 00:23:13.869 we've seen, the willingness to share that is 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:17.160 there. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, I think that 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.359 in the, you know, in the long run, a lot of this 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:22.859 stuff, I think doing those trips, I think in 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:24.500 the long run, I think would be also extremely 00:23:24.500 --> 00:23:27.480 helpful. And then I think, you know, vice versa 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.099 to have, you know, people from Israel and from 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:33.759 the Jewish diaspora to go to Muslim countries 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:38.279 and to be able to experience those, those societies 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.079 and kind of the openness and willingness that 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:45.009 they're, it's not such a. It's not as hostile 00:23:45.009 --> 00:23:46.910 as it appears to be from the outside, that there 00:23:46.910 --> 00:23:50.670 is incredible spaces for generosity and hospitality 00:23:50.670 --> 00:23:55.269 and getting to know each other. So it was very, 00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:57.309 I mean, one of the heartbreaking things I was 00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:02.589 listening to, there was a podcast about the two 00:24:02.589 --> 00:24:05.269 Israeli interns that were killed. And right before 00:24:05.269 --> 00:24:07.730 that, they actually had gone to Morocco and they 00:24:07.730 --> 00:24:12.140 were there on kind of like an interfaith. uh 00:24:12.140 --> 00:24:15.019 project um and then you know right after and 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:17.140 they were very much dedicated towards kind of 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:19.960 building peace unfortunately that's that's what's 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:22.799 happening in boulder we had a home in boulder 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:30.500 and it's really a community that embraces i can't 00:24:30.500 --> 00:24:32.940 say embraces diversity it doesn't have a lot 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:37.079 of diversity but the concept and there would 00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:42.279 more likely be as many rallies in support of 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.859 something, an Arab Muslim issue, as there is 00:24:45.859 --> 00:24:48.059 for a Jewish issue. And so the fact that it was 00:24:48.059 --> 00:24:51.200 targeted, I think the problem with that is the 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.539 fact that it was targeted. Does that make people 00:24:54.539 --> 00:25:00.329 say maybe it's not worth those efforts? then 00:25:00.329 --> 00:25:03.049 we seem to be targeted rather than rewarded for 00:25:03.049 --> 00:25:06.009 those things. That's the danger of that. With 00:25:06.009 --> 00:25:07.970 October 7th, too. I mean, the people that were 00:25:07.970 --> 00:25:09.970 killed there, they were also, you know. And that's 00:25:09.970 --> 00:25:12.170 something that's not generally appreciated either. 00:25:12.690 --> 00:25:16.230 That the Kibbutzim that were located near the 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:21.150 border very often were the most liberal of the 00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:24.130 Israelis. They were the group that used to take 00:25:24.130 --> 00:25:27.890 people to hospitals, etc., etc. And that was 00:25:27.890 --> 00:25:31.250 unfortunate. They were the most vulnerable. We 00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:35.390 spent four days on a kibbutz a few weeks ago 00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:43.349 and you know, we see the fence and we see life 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:49.390 on one side and it seems to me that they want 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:52.210 what we all want. The kids are running around. 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:56.490 They want a certain amount of security and feed 00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:58.730 their families and do their thing, which is what 00:25:58.730 --> 00:26:02.710 really everyone wants. The educational aspect 00:26:02.710 --> 00:26:08.250 of that is the most difficult, I think. How does 00:26:08.250 --> 00:26:14.190 one establish the trust that if one's worried 00:26:14.190 --> 00:26:18.099 about an existential... about existential issues. 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:20.980 How do we want to go on and then put these other 00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:28.839 things into focus? How do we get to young people 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:33.140 so that this isn't repeated time after time? 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:39.759 And I am hoping that groups like this and the 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.099 younger people establishing a dialogue with yourself 00:26:43.099 --> 00:26:47.349 will offer that opportunity. But I have to say 00:26:47.349 --> 00:26:50.950 that I'm... I can only start with one person 00:26:50.950 --> 00:26:55.490 which is me and hope that that serves as an example 00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:58.329 that it can be done because otherwise we're kind 00:26:58.329 --> 00:27:01.190 of doomed to repeat it. Yeah, absolutely. And 00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:06.609 I think that we have to... These days we can't 00:27:06.609 --> 00:27:10.720 rely on... politicians and government to make 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.000 things better. I think we have to find our own 00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:16.460 space where we have control and we can make things 00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:20.440 better in our own world. And then maybe if every 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.740 single person we know does that, then it'll just 00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:27.539 happen by itself because then we'll have tens 00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.519 of thousands of people doing that at the same 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:34.440 time. But I'm losing my faith in the ability. 00:27:35.879 --> 00:27:37.660 government to help us get out of that. Right 00:27:37.660 --> 00:27:39.759 now it's just a mess across the world I think 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:42.440 at this point. But I think exactly having these 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.160 sorts of like small groups and sort of being 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.180 able to and then I think you know whatever our 00:27:47.180 --> 00:27:48.940 best practices are things that we're learning 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:51.160 being able to share that with other people and 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:52.799 being able to replicate it in other parts of 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:54.420 the country in other parts of the world I think 00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:57.960 are very important you know. So I'm very grateful 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:01.230 for both of you in terms of like just taking 00:28:01.230 --> 00:28:03.470 the time and interest and putting your energy 00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:06.109 into developing these relationships and having 00:28:06.109 --> 00:28:09.130 these very tough conversations. And for Stuart, 00:28:09.250 --> 00:28:11.349 especially, I think you do a really great job 00:28:11.349 --> 00:28:14.690 of probing me and asking very difficult questions, 00:28:14.829 --> 00:28:16.809 but it really gets you to think and it really 00:28:16.809 --> 00:28:20.170 helps me to be able to better understand. It 00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:22.269 just clarifies not just my own thinking, but 00:28:22.269 --> 00:28:24.049 also pushing me to think about things in different 00:28:24.049 --> 00:28:26.289 ways that I'm not used to. Thank you for doing 00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:27.829 that. I appreciate that. Thank you for doing 00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:33.099 that. It means a lot. It really does. You know, 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.980 I know she keeps reminding me that I say how 00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:41.259 old I am, but unfortunately that really colors 00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:46.980 our feelings about this. And having been exposed 00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:49.759 to these different things, I approach this with 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:54.440 a lot of skepticism and very strong feelings. 00:28:58.109 --> 00:29:00.809 I don't have a lot of time to waste. I want to 00:29:00.809 --> 00:29:02.990 ask you the things that need to be asked and 00:29:02.990 --> 00:29:05.990 not dance around them. Fortunately, you've been 00:29:05.990 --> 00:29:10.069 honest enough to answer them. And that means 00:29:10.069 --> 00:29:13.210 a lot. Thank you. That means a lot. I mean, the 00:29:13.210 --> 00:29:16.890 good thing is that you're, I think... Your age 00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:19.369 also, like you've also been very thoughtful, 00:29:19.529 --> 00:29:21.630 right? So you just haven't grown old. I feel 00:29:21.630 --> 00:29:23.589 you've also grown wise. And that's really helpful 00:29:23.589 --> 00:29:26.490 because you're able then to bring a perspective 00:29:26.490 --> 00:29:29.490 to the conversation that most of us don't have, 00:29:29.630 --> 00:29:31.890 right? I mean, you've seen events and you've 00:29:31.890 --> 00:29:34.170 lived through things that we haven't been through. 00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:36.430 And so that gives us a different sort of lens 00:29:36.430 --> 00:29:39.730 in terms of thinking about understanding, you 00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:41.470 know, understanding kind of what it means, right? 00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:46.789 But I hope I don't take us back. so far that 00:29:46.789 --> 00:29:49.950 it becomes difficult to get through that, to 00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:53.970 relive these kind of hurts. No, no, I think it 00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:56.730 gives us a good perspective. And one of the things 00:29:56.730 --> 00:29:58.950 I like also about our group is that it's kind 00:29:58.950 --> 00:30:02.630 of multi -generational. So we have younger people, 00:30:02.890 --> 00:30:06.329 we have older people, so you have a much more... 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.640 um comprehensive set of um ages and sort of groups 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.140 that are that are represented so there's a diversity 00:30:13.140 --> 00:30:15.279 of opinions and perspectives and each of the 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.720 generations can kind of give their own perspective 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.200 and i think that that that's also been very helpful 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.319 to us yeah because it's uninteresting if there's 00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:27.279 only one group of people right that are kind 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:29.099 of and we're just talking within our own generation 00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:31.819 You're able to get people from different countries, 00:30:31.940 --> 00:30:34.720 different generations, different backgrounds 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:36.920 here in the United States. I mean, you've grown 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:40.259 up differently from from Diane, Susan. Like everyone 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:42.819 has had such interesting perspectives. Right. 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.099 And then, you know, from conversion to interfaith 00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:49.380 marriage to all types of stuff. I mean, all of 00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:51.119 these different perspectives, I think, gives 00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:53.259 us different ways of thinking about it and also 00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:57.589 gives us hopefully. We're developing a language 00:30:57.589 --> 00:30:59.269 that we can talk about these things together 00:30:59.269 --> 00:31:00.829 with each other. That's important. That's really 00:31:00.829 --> 00:31:02.569 important. You have to have the words to be able 00:31:02.569 --> 00:31:05.190 to say that. It's not just a trust, but being 00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:09.609 able to communicate. And understand the emotion 00:31:09.609 --> 00:31:14.170 attached to those words. The subtleties of differences 00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:18.130 in what a word means to you and means to me. 00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:21.750 I think that's right. This is the thing that 00:31:21.750 --> 00:31:26.640 I think with our last dialogue. when we were 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.759 talking about kind of the emotion, the emotional 00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:32.740 sort of characteristic of this idea of settler 00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:34.660 colonialism and all these sorts of things and 00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:38.240 how it's resonating with you all. And I think 00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:40.940 that was something that you don't necessarily 00:31:40.940 --> 00:31:44.740 get the Jewish perspective on that because I 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:49.000 think, yeah, I mean, there's a whole emotional 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.859 level to sort of what that means. Even the word 00:31:51.859 --> 00:31:57.859 Zionism. and how Zionism has a resonance within 00:31:57.859 --> 00:31:59.440 the Jewish community and then outside of the 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:01.819 Jewish community, what Zionism means. But it's 00:32:01.819 --> 00:32:04.539 been given that negative connotation. Yeah, exactly. 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.640 And it takes on. Right. You know, I think that 00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.480 the conflation of Zionism and Judaism and Jew 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:20.500 is sometimes not well understood. Oh, yeah. And 00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:23.380 it can be negative in terms of that if it's utilization. 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:28.079 Right. And becomes a political. Right. Judaism 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.920 and you have Zionism becomes used as a political 00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.640 tool. Well, that's the thing I've seen with anti 00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.880 -Semitism as well, particularly like in the Muslim 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:36.980 world. It's like everything is conflated with 00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:44.599 each other. Israeli, Jew, you know, ideas of, 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:49.049 you know, being. And just kind of like a lot 00:32:49.049 --> 00:32:50.769 of the conspiracy theories and things like that 00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:54.789 as well. So being able to explain to people that 00:32:54.789 --> 00:32:57.490 there are differences and there are differences 00:32:57.490 --> 00:32:59.890 of opinion. And also I think the other thing 00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:02.009 that's been really helpful from your perspective 00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:04.390 on Israel and then even me kind of exploring 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:06.789 a little bit more through, you know, the times 00:33:06.789 --> 00:33:09.519 of Israel and stuff like that. that there's so 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.740 much diversity within the state of Israel itself. 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.539 There's so much diversity among American Jews 00:33:14.539 --> 00:33:17.160 in terms of thinking about lots of these issues. 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.460 So you can't just say this is the Jewish position, 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.420 Jewish perspective on one issue. And there's 00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:24.539 a lot. And, you know, especially the other thing 00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:26.599 that I think has been remarkable is just seeing 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.700 how committed you all are to social justice. 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.140 And that's been really, you know, this whole 00:33:33.140 --> 00:33:36.130 Tikkun Olam thing, but just... trying to make 00:33:36.130 --> 00:33:39.109 the world a better place and putting your time, 00:33:39.490 --> 00:33:42.789 your energy, your money into these sorts of philanthropic 00:33:42.789 --> 00:33:45.269 efforts. I think that's also been quite remarkable 00:33:45.269 --> 00:33:47.309 to see. What's the saying? If not now, when? 00:33:48.009 --> 00:33:51.750 Yeah, exactly. And I appreciate you, Diane, for 00:33:51.750 --> 00:33:54.049 supporting Stuart all the time. You're always 00:33:54.049 --> 00:33:56.329 at his side and I really do appreciate that. 00:33:56.430 --> 00:33:59.329 I know you could be doing other things, but you 00:33:59.329 --> 00:34:02.069 really are coming and supporting and that's very 00:34:02.069 --> 00:34:06.839 much appreciated. With that, I want to thank 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.659 you both. Thank you. Thank you so much for this. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.260 And we're looking forward to continuing the conversation. 00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:15.079 So thank you so much. Thank you. Of course.