Welcome back to the Interfaiths program. I'm
your host, Iqbal Akhtar, and we are here with
a... power couple Stuart and Diane who are pillars
of the Jewish community here and they do a lot
of remarkable work here in Israel in terms of
supporting humanitarian causes and they've been
an integral part of our Muslim Jewish dialogue
group and so we're going to start a little bit
about their backgrounds what got them interested
their own identity and kind of evolution in terms
of being Jewish and how they understand some
of the challenges that we have today and their
hopes for the future in terms of developing interfaith
dialogue and relationships and particularly Jewish
-Muslim sort of engagement, which I think is
something that is at the heart of the work that
they do. So who wants to start? You start. Okay,
start. Give us a little bit about your background.
Where do you come from? Who are you? Well, since
I think it's important. I was born in 1940, which
was eight years before the establishment of the
State of Israel. So I was kind of just becoming
aware of things. And that does color my long
-term views of things. But I was born into a
family. We have four of us, three boys and a
girl, in a... pretty blue -collar community with
a well -established middle -class Jewish community
and my family was not religious in the sense
of observance, but we were very Zionistic, very
involved as I remember in the state of Israel
once it began to be established. And we were
very Zionistic. My parents contributed to it.
They participated in the groups that discussed
it. And I guess some of that rubbed off. My dad
was a meatpacker. And I, as in many fairly large
Jewish families, was thought, come into the business.
And so I worked from the time I was very small
as butcher. which kind of plays itself out later
on in life. So I knew what it was like to work.
I was active in high school, a fairly normal
high school, public school life and education.
I was president of the student government. I
was active in gymnastics. And then went on to
undergraduate school at Franklin and Marshall,
a small liberal arts school in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
where we were also exposed to the Amish and Mennonite
people that were a little different and it was
it was it was an education in itself was an education
and made me very interested in some of the other
ways that people live their lives out. I went
then to med school at the University of Pennsylvania
in Philadelphia and then did my residency in
radiology and then deciding that I didn't like
that. I had been very fortunate to be exposed
to one of the early pioneers in echocardiography
and use of diagnostic ultrasound, Claude Joyner,
in 1962 when I came to med school and he kind
of took me under his wing and exposed me to echocardiography
which then of course played itself out later
in my career. I was also interested in nuclear
medicine and particularly in nuclear cardiology
and decided that I really didn't like radiology.
I liked the physics and clinical aspects of both
echocardiography and nuclear cardiology, and
so another Penn graduate, Manny Viamonte, who
was head of the radiology department here at
the University of Miami, asked me to come down,
start those two areas, and complete a residency
in nuclear medicine, which is what I did. So
I stayed at the university for almost 10 years.
and started other programs in both those fields
and ran them for many years in other hospitals.
As you can tell, I kind of like physics and a
kind of combination of clinical medicine and
physics. But I was here during the influx from
71 until 80 of the Cuban migration. was fascinating
to me. But I don't have a very interesting background.
That kind of sums up where I am. I've since been
in private practice and taken an interest in
what we do because I think that, as I pointed
out in the beginning, my age tends to tends to
have associated with it certain prejudices and
biases and there's certain aspects of that that
are a little bit confusing to me. I had one patient
from Saudi Arabia who I used to see periodically
and he would always hug me and say cousin you're
my cousin and I guess I had Harvard and still,
to some extent, harbor doubt about my relationship
with Islam. And I thought, gosh, that's true.
We are cousins. Why all this animosity? And I
wasn't ignorant of the history, of a 3 ,000 -year
history. But nevertheless, it created some confusion
and some desire to kind of learn more about what
it was that I seemed to have these prejudices
about and that's what took me into doing what
we do now. I think to some extent those same
prejudices are different from the younger generation
and sometimes I wonder if they hold us back or
hold me back but one thing I have learned that's
been interesting is that through the dialogue,
it is possible to, with time and some confrontation,
to trust. And I've always felt that in order
to solve a problem, to have a dialogue, die,
it's two. Two people have to talk. Two groups
have to talk. But two people talk and they learn
to trust. And even friendship. to some extent
comes out of this with all of its complications
and all of its expectations but I have learned
that it's possible and that's why I continue
and why I hope that you know perhaps if you know
that others will see that we can struggle with
this and come out of it understanding one another
a little bit, trusting one another, perhaps more
so even than understanding, and that that can
serve as a basis for going forward. Absolutely,
yeah. That's been very, very important, I think,
the trust part of it. I think the other thing
that has dawned on me as well is just that how,
in a way, we live within our own worlds and our
faith traditions, and they're things that are
self -evident. that sometimes need to be said.
And that was one of the things that, you know,
with our anti -Semitism statements and stuff
like that. I mean, I thought it was self -evident
that people realized that the majority, you know,
I would say majority Muslims are not okay. I
mean, they completely condemned that sort of
violence. It was unacceptable. But then, you
know, actually it was because of you, Stuart.
Like, you would ask me, I was like, where are
the, you had messaged me, I think earlier about,
you know, where the Muslim, moderate Muslim voices
and where you've seen that. And then I would
actually, I was like, well, I'm sure. Everybody's
been saying stuff. And then I looked online,
I was searching, and I was like, there are very
few statements that are actually condemning anti
-Semitic violence from Muslims. And so I was
like, wow, that's very surprising to me. So I
think that that's part of it is also just being
able to communicate that. and learning what is
the language of communicating in a pluralistic
democracy, that there are ways that you need
to say things, you need to support people, you
need to be able to articulate your position and
your viewpoint. And I think that's been really,
really helpful, just sort of being able to have
these conversations and having that honesty.
Yeah. That's been very, very helpful. It also,
you know, what comes along with it is an expectation.
And sometimes those expectations aren't completely
met and we take a step back. But then we step
forward and say, you know, you didn't meet my
expectation. I wrote you because I feel close
to you now. And we've had a number of personal
meetings. I would expect that when things happen,
that you say something as I feel I would. And
you responded. And that reinforced. That relationship.
So we can take another step forward. Right, exactly.
Absolutely. So Diane, talk to us about you. So
I have a very different story than most people.
I was raised Catholic. And when I was young,
I was married and I got divorced. And at that
time, the Catholic Church really didn't embrace
people who were divorced. And I decided if the
Catholic Church doesn't want me, then I don't
really want to be part of a faith that I don't
feel comfortable accepting. So I really was not
doing anything. And my parents, my father was
fairly observant. So I saw that in him. And I
didn't really do anything about it. And then
I met Stuart. And he made it pretty clear that
even if we weren't going to have children or
whatever, that he was not getting involved with
somebody who wasn't Jewish. So I had been thinking
about Judaism because my father worked in the
garment industry, which was primarily Jewish.
And we had a lot of friends, unlike most. Christians
that don't really know Jews. I knew a lot of
Jews. A lot of our friends, we went to their
celebrations and stuff. So it wasn't foreign.
And I kind of thought to myself, maybe I should
explore this. But I didn't do anything formal.
So when he said that, I said, you know, this
is as good a time as any to do it. So I went
down that path and I became a Jew by choice.
But part of it is that I kind of made the commitment
to myself that There wasn't a reason to give
up a religion to embrace another if you weren't
going to understand that religion. Because part
of my problem with Catholicism is I really didn't
understand it that much. You know, you just grow
up and you learn certain things and you do them.
And when you don't do them, you have to go atone
for them. And that didn't go with me, really.
So I always credit... my husband, my mother -in
-law for teaching me about Judaism, my rabbi.
And then I stumbled onto Hadassah, which is a
women's Zionist organization. It's the largest
Jewish volunteer organization in the world. And
they really taught me about the connection that
you were embracing, not just a religion, but
a peoplehood. And so I really learned about the
culture, about the religious practices, but mostly
I learned about Israel. So I learned one of the
things that you learn is that to be Jewish is
to embrace the land of Israel, the history, the
people, you know, how we started there, how we
remain there, how we have been expelled, come
back. But still, we survive. And then, of course,
the Holocaust played a role in creating the state.
So I really learned a lot about Israel. And I
kind of fell in love. I fell in love with the
country, the people with the concept. I guess
it was because I was looking for something. I
was really looking for something to connect to.
The funny thing, my mother, I thought she'd be
upset when I was converting. She said, well,
at least you're going to do something. So my
parents were fine with me converting because
they were just happy to see me have some kind
of faith -based practice. And one of the things
I learned through Hadassah was that in Israel,
despite what people might think, there is cooperation
between the Arabs and the Jews because they have
to. They live in the same country. They use the
same health care system. They go to the same
schools. So at Hadassah, it was very easy. I
mean, we have 25 % of the staff is Palestinian.
More are Arabs, Israeli Arabs. When patients
come in the door, they check their religion at
the door, and the caregiver checks his religion
when he comes to work. and the Arab is in bed
next to the Jew and the Druze and the Christian
and whatever. And it seems for the most part
to work. We have remarkable stories about, you
know, Palestinian doctors who saved the life
of a Jewish child and now he goes to the bar
mitzvahs and the weddings and vice versa. So
I really... I really believed in that and believed
that it can work and that believed that medicine
could be a bridge to peace. And I'm a nurse midwife
by profession. I'm a nurse. So that was kind
of part of me was that medicine is a tool that
we can use to build bridges. So when October
7th came, it kind of turned everything upside
down because there were struggles in the hospital
with the staff and just like here, everybody
trying to deal with. this kumbaya aspect you
have of everything and that you can make everything
better. And then these things happen. So when
I heard about the Unbiased Initiative, I thought,
you know, I feel really strongly that we all
really are just human beings and have common
issues and want to solve them together. And that
maybe this is something I, and you know, after
October 7th, everybody feels like they want to
do something. Right. So when they asked me to
get involved, I said, yes, because I'm comfortable
with this work. I don't have a lot of, because
of how I grew up, I don't have a lot of preconceived
notions about Arabs, Jews, and whatever. It's
mostly what I've learned as an adult. So I thought
it was a good fit. And I've enjoyed it because
it's... You know, it does challenge a lot of
the things that you think are fine and you don't
have to worry about it. It does challenge that.
But by the same token, I feel that once people
know each other, it's very hard to hate people
that you're having a meal with. Right, exactly.
And that you know their son and that they talk
about their wife or something. So I think it's
important work. And I hope that we, we always
use the phrase, move the needle. But if we can.
If 10 people can change their idea about things,
I think that that's a start. We're not going
to change the world, but we can do it. And I
feel like through Hadassah, I try to make a bigger
change. And then through this, a smaller change.
Absolutely. I mean, you have this interesting
perspective because you're kind of an insider
-outsider. What has been your general impression
of your engagement with... With with Muslims
because you you You know, you kind of convert
it into Judaism you all you work with with Muslims
in Israel and also now you're getting to know
people here in the United States What do you
see are the commonalities into the differences
in terms? It's fascinating because you know,
I had to learn about Jewish practice So I know
a lot about more about Jewish than a lot of Jews
do exactly My friends call me and say what do
we do for that holiday? So does your husband.
So we're so similar. It's really so sad that
we really are cousins. Somebody was talking about
burial practices and how quick you have a funeral.
I said, that's exactly the way Jews do things.
We do the same thing. So it is sad. But look,
politics is responsible for most of the world's
ills and challenges. And I think if left to our
own devices, we would all get along because it's
much better for us. Because all we really want
is to send our kids to school and have a home
and raise our kids and have enough to eat and
whatever. Do we really care about these other
things? I don't think so. But we're forced into
those positions. And I work with a lot of, we
have a lot of initiatives in Hadassah. to train
Palestinian nurses and doctors to go back to
their community. I'm involved with a group called
Nurses in the Middle East, and they do that.
So I have very positive opinion of Muslim health
care workers. I mean, that's my experience and
how dedicated they are to their community, how
they want to learn and help and how we learn
things from them. So I really didn't have that.
kind of ingrained thing like, oh, let's see what
happens. But October 7th, you know, what's that
phrase where it's like it shakes you up a little
bit and you think, was I just being naive? So
I'm trying to push that down and just say, no,
we can go back to the way things were. Because
it's not the first time this has happened in
history, that there's clashes between different
cultures, people, and you have to overcome it.
I think the challenge is for us to overcome it
in a positive way. Yeah, I mean, I think that
it's been very interesting because I've never
been to Israel. I'm probably going to go in November.
So there's a conference that I've been invited
to the University of Haifa. So I think that'd
be really interesting to go see. Haifa is a largely
an Arab town. Yeah, and they have a really good
interfaith studies program there at the university.
So I'll be giving a lecture there. But I think
that's been... something very interesting to
hear and understand Israel from your perspectives,
as people that are kind of going there quite
often, just to understand kind of the complexity
and diversity of the society. Because I think
that's another thing is that if you've never
been there, you assume things about the society.
And I think that that's something that in the
long run, That's my hope with the Abraham Accords
as well, is once you actually start having Arabs
going, hopefully it goes to Saudi Arabia and
other places, you have people coming back and
forth, they'll really be able to have that citizen
-to -citizen diplomacy. I think that's something
that's remarkable about it. the programs we have
in America, like the Fulbright and all these
sorts of programs where once you have people
to people connections across societies, across
civilizations, you're able to kind of change
people's entire perspectives in terms of like
how they relate their understanding. And I think
that that barrier, the fact that a lot of the
country, Muslim countries don't recognize Israel
and that their people don't go there. They're
not able to see what a remarkable society Israel
is and to create it from such a short period
of time into a very dynamic and prosperous society
that has its own challenges as well and its own
problems. But to see that, I think that's quite
an achievement in that, you know, the society
is able to build and create things. I think that's
also something that's really valuable because
when you go to a lot of these other countries
in the Middle East right now, they tend to be
purely consumer societies. They just buy things,
but then rarely are they producing. technologies,
ideas, things like that. And I think that's something
that they could probably learn from Israel as
well, kind of the entrepreneurship sort of as
an idea for society. And especially, you know,
you're constrained, right? You're constrained
by geography, by climate. um but despite those
constraints you're able to develop and construct
um and grow things i think that's really quite
a remarkable experience so i think just sort
of that lived reality i think would be in the
long run something very very helpful for muslims
and jews and to be able to do yeah and i think
that they've tried that i that if when you get
around the existential issues which is a big
issue Israel has a lot to teach and they want
to share. They've already done that in many places
in South America, for example. And their handling
of water conservation, of growing products, is
really secondary to none. And I believe what
we've seen, the willingness to share that is
there. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, I think that
in the, you know, in the long run, a lot of this
stuff, I think doing those trips, I think in
the long run, I think would be also extremely
helpful. And then I think, you know, vice versa
to have, you know, people from Israel and from
the Jewish diaspora to go to Muslim countries
and to be able to experience those, those societies
and kind of the openness and willingness that
they're, it's not such a. It's not as hostile
as it appears to be from the outside, that there
is incredible spaces for generosity and hospitality
and getting to know each other. So it was very,
I mean, one of the heartbreaking things I was
listening to, there was a podcast about the two
Israeli interns that were killed. And right before
that, they actually had gone to Morocco and they
were there on kind of like an interfaith. uh
project um and then you know right after and
they were very much dedicated towards kind of
building peace unfortunately that's that's what's
happening in boulder we had a home in boulder
and it's really a community that embraces i can't
say embraces diversity it doesn't have a lot
of diversity but the concept and there would
more likely be as many rallies in support of
something, an Arab Muslim issue, as there is
for a Jewish issue. And so the fact that it was
targeted, I think the problem with that is the
fact that it was targeted. Does that make people
say maybe it's not worth those efforts? then
we seem to be targeted rather than rewarded for
those things. That's the danger of that. With
October 7th, too. I mean, the people that were
killed there, they were also, you know. And that's
something that's not generally appreciated either.
That the Kibbutzim that were located near the
border very often were the most liberal of the
Israelis. They were the group that used to take
people to hospitals, etc., etc. And that was
unfortunate. They were the most vulnerable. We
spent four days on a kibbutz a few weeks ago
and you know, we see the fence and we see life
on one side and it seems to me that they want
what we all want. The kids are running around.
They want a certain amount of security and feed
their families and do their thing, which is what
really everyone wants. The educational aspect
of that is the most difficult, I think. How does
one establish the trust that if one's worried
about an existential... about existential issues.
How do we want to go on and then put these other
things into focus? How do we get to young people
so that this isn't repeated time after time?
And I am hoping that groups like this and the
younger people establishing a dialogue with yourself
will offer that opportunity. But I have to say
that I'm... I can only start with one person
which is me and hope that that serves as an example
that it can be done because otherwise we're kind
of doomed to repeat it. Yeah, absolutely. And
I think that we have to... These days we can't
rely on... politicians and government to make
things better. I think we have to find our own
space where we have control and we can make things
better in our own world. And then maybe if every
single person we know does that, then it'll just
happen by itself because then we'll have tens
of thousands of people doing that at the same
time. But I'm losing my faith in the ability.
government to help us get out of that. Right
now it's just a mess across the world I think
at this point. But I think exactly having these
sorts of like small groups and sort of being
able to and then I think you know whatever our
best practices are things that we're learning
being able to share that with other people and
being able to replicate it in other parts of
the country in other parts of the world I think
are very important you know. So I'm very grateful
for both of you in terms of like just taking
the time and interest and putting your energy
into developing these relationships and having
these very tough conversations. And for Stuart,
especially, I think you do a really great job
of probing me and asking very difficult questions,
but it really gets you to think and it really
helps me to be able to better understand. It
just clarifies not just my own thinking, but
also pushing me to think about things in different
ways that I'm not used to. Thank you for doing
that. I appreciate that. Thank you for doing
that. It means a lot. It really does. You know,
I know she keeps reminding me that I say how
old I am, but unfortunately that really colors
our feelings about this. And having been exposed
to these different things, I approach this with
a lot of skepticism and very strong feelings.
I don't have a lot of time to waste. I want to
ask you the things that need to be asked and
not dance around them. Fortunately, you've been
honest enough to answer them. And that means
a lot. Thank you. That means a lot. I mean, the
good thing is that you're, I think... Your age
also, like you've also been very thoughtful,
right? So you just haven't grown old. I feel
you've also grown wise. And that's really helpful
because you're able then to bring a perspective
to the conversation that most of us don't have,
right? I mean, you've seen events and you've
lived through things that we haven't been through.
And so that gives us a different sort of lens
in terms of thinking about understanding, you
know, understanding kind of what it means, right?
But I hope I don't take us back. so far that
it becomes difficult to get through that, to
relive these kind of hurts. No, no, I think it
gives us a good perspective. And one of the things
I like also about our group is that it's kind
of multi -generational. So we have younger people,
we have older people, so you have a much more...
um comprehensive set of um ages and sort of groups
that are that are represented so there's a diversity
of opinions and perspectives and each of the
generations can kind of give their own perspective
and i think that that that's also been very helpful
to us yeah because it's uninteresting if there's
only one group of people right that are kind
of and we're just talking within our own generation
You're able to get people from different countries,
different generations, different backgrounds
here in the United States. I mean, you've grown
up differently from from Diane, Susan. Like everyone
has had such interesting perspectives. Right.
And then, you know, from conversion to interfaith
marriage to all types of stuff. I mean, all of
these different perspectives, I think, gives
us different ways of thinking about it and also
gives us hopefully. We're developing a language
that we can talk about these things together
with each other. That's important. That's really
important. You have to have the words to be able
to say that. It's not just a trust, but being
able to communicate. And understand the emotion
attached to those words. The subtleties of differences
in what a word means to you and means to me.
I think that's right. This is the thing that
I think with our last dialogue. when we were
talking about kind of the emotion, the emotional
sort of characteristic of this idea of settler
colonialism and all these sorts of things and
how it's resonating with you all. And I think
that was something that you don't necessarily
get the Jewish perspective on that because I
think, yeah, I mean, there's a whole emotional
level to sort of what that means. Even the word
Zionism. and how Zionism has a resonance within
the Jewish community and then outside of the
Jewish community, what Zionism means. But it's
been given that negative connotation. Yeah, exactly.
And it takes on. Right. You know, I think that
the conflation of Zionism and Judaism and Jew
is sometimes not well understood. Oh, yeah. And
it can be negative in terms of that if it's utilization.
Right. And becomes a political. Right. Judaism
and you have Zionism becomes used as a political
tool. Well, that's the thing I've seen with anti
-Semitism as well, particularly like in the Muslim
world. It's like everything is conflated with
each other. Israeli, Jew, you know, ideas of,
you know, being. And just kind of like a lot
of the conspiracy theories and things like that
as well. So being able to explain to people that
there are differences and there are differences
of opinion. And also I think the other thing
that's been really helpful from your perspective
on Israel and then even me kind of exploring
a little bit more through, you know, the times
of Israel and stuff like that. that there's so
much diversity within the state of Israel itself.
There's so much diversity among American Jews
in terms of thinking about lots of these issues.
So you can't just say this is the Jewish position,
Jewish perspective on one issue. And there's
a lot. And, you know, especially the other thing
that I think has been remarkable is just seeing
how committed you all are to social justice.
And that's been really, you know, this whole
Tikkun Olam thing, but just... trying to make
the world a better place and putting your time,
your energy, your money into these sorts of philanthropic
efforts. I think that's also been quite remarkable
to see. What's the saying? If not now, when?
Yeah, exactly. And I appreciate you, Diane, for
supporting Stuart all the time. You're always
at his side and I really do appreciate that.
I know you could be doing other things, but you
really are coming and supporting and that's very
much appreciated. With that, I want to thank
you both. Thank you. Thank you so much for this.
And we're looking forward to continuing the conversation.
So thank you so much. Thank you. Of course.