WEBVTT 00:00:06.229 --> 00:00:09.949 Welcome back to another episode of Interfaith 00:00:09.949 --> 00:00:16.010 Miami podcast here at FIU. We are honored to 00:00:16.010 --> 00:00:19.350 have Yasmin here who is joining us and she's 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.850 part of our Muslim Jewish dialogue and she's 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:26.750 a local faith leader and a Muslim theologian. 00:00:26.809 --> 00:00:29.489 So we're very honored to have her as part of. 00:00:30.250 --> 00:00:36.390 our scholars. She's also a professor here at 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:40.689 FIU and teaches courses on religion in the Department 00:00:40.689 --> 00:00:43.070 of Religious Studies. So we're very honored to 00:00:43.070 --> 00:00:47.049 have you here with us. Talk to us a little bit 00:00:47.049 --> 00:00:49.950 about yourself and your background. First of 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:51.450 all, I'm very honored to be here. I think this 00:00:51.450 --> 00:00:54.590 is a great idea. So thank you so much for inviting 00:00:54.590 --> 00:01:00.850 me on this show. My background. So Ethnically, 00:01:00.990 --> 00:01:05.810 I come from the Middle East, Iraq, Turkey, Saudi 00:01:05.810 --> 00:01:09.590 Arabia, add a little sprinkling of Armenian, 00:01:09.969 --> 00:01:14.209 and then we found ourselves in the United States 00:01:14.209 --> 00:01:18.769 when I was about to start college, and I have 00:01:18.769 --> 00:01:22.129 been here, but I've really lived in three continents, 00:01:22.469 --> 00:01:25.790 six countries, and seven states within the United 00:01:25.790 --> 00:01:29.269 States. for a very long period of time. And I 00:01:29.269 --> 00:01:33.769 spent 28 years in the Arab world, another five 00:01:33.769 --> 00:01:37.230 years on top of that in Turkey. I was in Germany, 00:01:37.310 --> 00:01:39.870 I was in England, and in many different places. 00:01:40.069 --> 00:01:42.950 So I was exposed to a lot of different things. 00:01:43.030 --> 00:01:44.989 And I can say that throughout the course of my 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:47.890 life, I think I've definitely, the one consistent 00:01:47.890 --> 00:01:51.400 thing that I... can say about myself is I've 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:56.719 always been very curious about being a seeker 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.379 of truth and what that looked like. But what 00:01:59.379 --> 00:02:01.900 that looked like for me in my early days was 00:02:01.900 --> 00:02:06.579 very different than who I am now. But I'm grateful 00:02:06.579 --> 00:02:09.120 for the transformation. Talk to us about your 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:13.500 spiritual progress. Okay. So I grew up in Saudi 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:16.979 Arabia. I was born and raised there. And my parents... 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:22.800 Unlike most non -Saudis who used to go to American 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:25.460 schools, British schools, French schools, etc., 00:02:25.460 --> 00:02:27.840 foreign schools that were tied to embassies, 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:31.639 my parents decided to put myself and my brothers 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.159 in Saudi schools, Saudi Arabian madrasas, hardcore 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:39.280 Islamic schools, where we studied five different 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:43.740 Islamic subjects every single day for 12 years. 00:02:45.480 --> 00:02:48.960 and it was very strict it was highly segregated 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:53.259 it was very serious and it was you know it inculcated 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:58.180 a certain understanding a certain flavor of of 00:02:58.180 --> 00:03:02.259 Sunni Islam typically today I don't I'd like 00:03:02.259 --> 00:03:04.360 to shy away from labels but unfortunately we 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:06.650 live in a world where when you use language, 00:03:06.669 --> 00:03:10.210 you have to really use labels too. So very loosely, 00:03:10.349 --> 00:03:15.590 you know, Wahhabi or Salafi kind of. ideology 00:03:15.590 --> 00:03:19.629 towards Islamic practice and so that was my upbringing 00:03:19.629 --> 00:03:21.849 and then I came to the United States and all 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:24.009 of a sudden I was exposed to freedom of thought 00:03:24.009 --> 00:03:27.729 and I didn't quite know what to do with it initially 00:03:27.729 --> 00:03:32.610 I was overwhelmed and I had a very brief I would 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:36.990 say agnostic period and then I found that that 00:03:36.990 --> 00:03:40.479 didn't really satiate me I couldn't make meaning 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.199 of it. I couldn't understand or grapple with 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:48.099 the idea that something comes from nothing. I 00:03:48.099 --> 00:03:51.560 couldn't make sense of a world without grand 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.080 design. And so there are many different atheistic 00:03:55.080 --> 00:04:01.400 tendencies that didn't sit well with me. So I 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:06.080 sought the truth at that time. And incidentally... 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:08.259 And this is a very important story because it 00:04:08.259 --> 00:04:10.580 changed the course of my life. When I was 19 00:04:10.580 --> 00:04:13.120 years old, one of my friends who actually wasn't 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.779 even Muslim from college gifted me a book. It 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:21.069 was called The Essentials of Rumi. And in Saudi 00:04:21.069 --> 00:04:24.230 Arabia, all the books of Rumi at the time, not 00:04:24.230 --> 00:04:28.410 now, at the time were banned. So I grew up not 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:31.089 knowing anything about the poet, philosopher, 00:04:31.490 --> 00:04:35.389 theologian Jalal ad -Din Rumi. So when I first 00:04:35.389 --> 00:04:37.970 picked up the book, and this was pre -internet 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:41.560 generation, I had no idea what it was. And the 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:43.759 gentleman, the boy who, you know, the guy who 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:46.860 gave it to me, he was just a normal friend. But 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:48.899 when I opened and I started reading some of the 00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:52.860 poetry, it felt initially like it was a love 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:54.699 between a man and a woman. I couldn't understand 00:04:54.699 --> 00:04:57.759 why he would give me this book. But then I quickly 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.319 understood that it was actually the love between 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:06.819 a human and the divine. And that really struck 00:05:06.819 --> 00:05:11.459 me because, you know, you grew up in, theological 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:14.120 tradition that teaches you fear where you know 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.079 God is something that you feared God wasn't necessarily 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.800 something that you loved and I was like wait 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.360 what do you mean love God who loves God you fear 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:26.839 God and so I decided to go on this quest and 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:29.980 I have been on this journey since I was 19 years 00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:34.100 old Wow of what it means to be in a love affair 00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:41.879 with the divine okay and So you're also an Islamic 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:47.939 theologian. What does the study of Islam bring 00:05:47.939 --> 00:05:55.370 to you? So, you know, even that has taken me 00:05:55.370 --> 00:05:57.529 from one step to another where where i started 00:05:57.529 --> 00:06:01.589 isn't where i am right now uh even in my own 00:06:01.589 --> 00:06:04.990 uh beliefs and and and my theological evolution 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:09.509 uh initially uh after you know i became a seeker 00:06:09.509 --> 00:06:12.689 of truth of this divine love it was i would again 00:06:12.689 --> 00:06:15.509 have to use some labelings i was very interested 00:06:15.509 --> 00:06:21.269 in the sufi path uh of uh of of um islam but 00:06:21.269 --> 00:06:25.220 you know i was inculcated in sunni Hanafi Islam. 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.160 Those were the tendencies or the terminologies 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:32.860 that I was raised with. And so initially, I was 00:06:32.860 --> 00:06:35.459 sort of pigeonholed within that. So my worldview, 00:06:35.459 --> 00:06:44.399 I felt, was still quite narrow. So I drew upon 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:47.980 Sufi ideology, but I was still, I would say... 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:53.579 stuck with Sunni Hanafi Islam. And I can say 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:56.920 that quite confidently now because I feel that 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:00.060 I've broken those boundaries. So what unstuck 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:05.500 you? So what unstuck me is I felt that there 00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:13.439 was a need for us to create these cages for ourselves 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:18.079 because that's where... felt comfortable and 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:20.279 you know it's how we were raised it was in my 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.399 environment it was our social sector we had created 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.779 these uh self -imposed restrictions and i felt 00:07:26.779 --> 00:07:29.939 that you know if god is limitless then why can't 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:33.540 we expand our world view and see things from 00:07:33.540 --> 00:07:35.959 other people's perspective there's you know we 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.420 have a world at the time now we're probably over 00:07:38.420 --> 00:07:41.240 a billion at the time it was you know younger 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:45.639 but then the more you travel, I've traveled to 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:49.860 over 70 countries, and you go and you see so 00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:54.079 many genuine people who grew up in different 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:56.240 environments, different families, right? Whether 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:59.199 they're Buddhist or even Hindu, things that were 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:04.220 so alien to me. We were like, oh, Hindus are 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:07.600 just idol worshipers. And you go into their temple, 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:10.720 and when you focus on the form, you might actually 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:12.560 say that because, you know, you see the elephant 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:14.519 and the snake and the monkey and so on and so 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.500 forth. Same thing with, I traveled all over the 00:08:18.500 --> 00:08:21.220 Far East, right? You see different forms of Buddha 00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:24.079 laying, standing. They look different, you know, 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.339 whether it's Taoist or Shinto or whatnot. But 00:08:27.339 --> 00:08:30.920 then... I realized something very critical, and 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.679 this is my latest journey, which is when you 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:38.620 focus on the form, things can take you to a very 00:08:38.620 --> 00:08:42.039 restricted place. But when you focus on the meaning, 00:08:42.379 --> 00:08:46.419 you can very easily, or at least I was very easily, 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.720 able to understand what it really meant to say 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:53.860 we believe in the oneness of God. And to me, 00:08:53.899 --> 00:08:56.519 that no longer means believing in the oneness 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:59.230 of God. you don't have statues in front of you 00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:01.289 that you worship. Believing in the oneness of 00:09:01.289 --> 00:09:05.450 God to me means that there's everything. manifest 00:09:05.450 --> 00:09:08.850 from it. And the essence of all is one. The essence 00:09:08.850 --> 00:09:12.889 of all creation is one. And so even my traditional 00:09:12.889 --> 00:09:17.549 Islamic identity that was very much focused on 00:09:17.549 --> 00:09:24.750 rituals and community, I really felt the need. 00:09:24.830 --> 00:09:26.850 It was suffocating me. I felt that I had to break 00:09:26.850 --> 00:09:30.210 those barriers. And I say this as a Muslim theologian, 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:35.700 actually, because My worldview of a Muslim theologian, 00:09:35.700 --> 00:09:40.399 in my understanding, is a very inclusive, adaptive, 00:09:40.899 --> 00:09:47.299 ever -evolving worldview of what Islam ought 00:09:47.299 --> 00:09:51.980 to be, not necessarily what we see the form being 00:09:51.980 --> 00:09:57.480 presented today. So you have a very unique perspective, 00:09:57.659 --> 00:10:01.450 I think. within the Islamic tradition. I mean, 00:10:01.549 --> 00:10:03.809 what is the reception by other Muslims then? 00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:10.110 Oh, you know, generally, I don't, you know, I 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:12.330 try to, as an academic, you know, you have to 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:16.659 know your audience. Sure. So... Sometimes I take 00:10:16.659 --> 00:10:18.720 a different approach. So depending on where I'm 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:24.179 at, if I'm invited to speak at a mosque, I try 00:10:24.179 --> 00:10:26.919 to gauge, depending on the conversation, I have 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.080 to be harmonious and congruent with my beliefs. 00:10:31.100 --> 00:10:33.379 So it's not like I can't say that I say something 00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:36.980 I don't mean, but I have to use a language that 00:10:36.980 --> 00:10:41.220 my audience is able to understand. And so sometimes 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:44.840 I don't approach subjects that I feel that, my 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:46.940 audience is not receptive to or i'm not really 00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:49.960 invited there to talk about those subjects so 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:54.990 i keep a lot of my thoughts, unfortunately, to 00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:58.409 myself, because I feel that the receptiveness 00:10:58.409 --> 00:11:03.450 level is actually very low. There are very, very 00:11:03.450 --> 00:11:07.090 few people, you certainly would be one of those 00:11:07.090 --> 00:11:10.730 very few people, who I can sincerely say that 00:11:10.730 --> 00:11:16.450 I would be able to express my Islamic beliefs 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:19.110 in a way where I don't feel like I would get 00:11:19.110 --> 00:11:29.100 any backlash. So Are there any spaces I Mean 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:32.100 you've traveled all over the world. So are there 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:35.519 any Muslim communities where you feel? The most 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:37.539 sense of community where you're able to fully 00:11:37.539 --> 00:11:45.019 be yourself So I would say More than a specific 00:11:45.019 --> 00:11:49.899 country. Yeah, I would say where I felt the most 00:11:52.680 --> 00:11:57.539 safe to able to sort of, or a community that 00:11:57.539 --> 00:12:03.440 where I felt the most compatible with was a community 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.019 that I joined, loosely joined, it's not really 00:12:07.019 --> 00:12:09.379 a club, but it's sort of a, you know, a community 00:12:09.379 --> 00:12:14.059 in Istanbul, led by a lady, her name is Cemal 00:12:14.059 --> 00:12:19.009 Nur Sargut, and her... outlook, her world, her 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:22.690 Islamic worldview really resonated with me. She 00:12:22.690 --> 00:12:27.330 took me on a path of this thing that's known 00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:32.330 in Tasawwuf called the nothingness, hijik, where 00:12:32.330 --> 00:12:38.149 you lose yourself in, and it's a very philosophical 00:12:38.149 --> 00:12:40.509 way, and it's very hard to do it justice in this 00:12:40.509 --> 00:12:46.490 form, but it's a way where You really go on this 00:12:46.490 --> 00:12:51.049 journey through different stations to fade away 00:12:51.049 --> 00:12:57.169 in your love of the divine. Now, I'm very much 00:12:57.169 --> 00:12:59.509 aware that I am a human being. I'm a mother. 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:02.389 I'm a spouse. I'm a daughter. And I have daily 00:13:02.389 --> 00:13:06.250 responsibilities. But I feel that if you really 00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:09.169 know how to stretch those spiritual muscles, 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:17.200 you can genuinely... live in that hal stage, 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:21.740 whether you're cooking or driving or working, 00:13:21.940 --> 00:13:25.360 you really can't. Is it easy? No. I think it's 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.299 very difficult because we're human, we're fallible, 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:34.600 and we can get angry. But at least I have a destination. 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:38.139 At least I'm trying, I'm making an effort to 00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:42.340 stretch those muscles in every... instance or 00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:45.179 every moment of my life. Wow, that's very interesting. 00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:49.039 Yeah, I mean, that's been something that growing 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:55.100 up in the United States, I think American Muslims 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:57.120 kind of think of themselves as being exceptional 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:04.639 in many ways. But in terms of, I think, the diversity 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:09.090 and complexity of Islamic thought, I... At least 00:14:09.090 --> 00:14:11.309 from what I've seen, American Muslims are definitely 00:14:11.309 --> 00:14:14.870 not at the cutting edge. I've seen some going 00:14:14.870 --> 00:14:17.789 to even places like Pakistan, which you wouldn't 00:14:17.789 --> 00:14:20.470 kind of think about. But there's some very interesting 00:14:20.470 --> 00:14:24.269 discussions I've had in Lahore and Istanbul and 00:14:24.269 --> 00:14:26.190 many of these other parts of the Islamic world 00:14:26.190 --> 00:14:30.570 where you're in the thick of Islamic culture 00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:34.149 and ideas, and you're actually able to be very 00:14:34.149 --> 00:14:39.169 generative. Whereas I think In the United States, 00:14:39.230 --> 00:14:42.710 I think there's just a lot less, I think, knowing 00:14:42.710 --> 00:14:45.789 of the diversity of the Islamic tradition. And 00:14:45.789 --> 00:14:49.049 then being a minority, you kind of feel, especially 00:14:49.049 --> 00:14:54.070 after September 11th, so for the last 25 years 00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:58.210 or so, being in a state of kind of having to 00:14:58.210 --> 00:15:00.610 defend your religion. And so then there's very 00:15:00.610 --> 00:15:02.889 little space for diversity of thought and sort 00:15:02.889 --> 00:15:05.429 of opinion and things like that. I couldn't agree 00:15:05.429 --> 00:15:09.740 more. I can only speak for South Florida. I've 00:15:09.740 --> 00:15:11.720 definitely had a lot of engagement with the Muslim 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.759 community in all the seven states that I lived 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.259 in because I was always a seeker. I was always 00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:18.539 a seeker of truth and I would try to go to different 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:23.620 congregations and mosques and so on. I can't 00:15:23.620 --> 00:15:27.159 say in all honesty that there's a single Islamic 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:30.960 center here in South Florida that is anywhere 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:37.100 near where... where I would feel safe to be able 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:41.440 to examine some of those ideas at all. But do 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.159 I go? Do I go at least on a weekly basis? Absolutely. 00:15:44.299 --> 00:15:47.019 But I go for the camaraderie. I go for the community. 00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:50.019 We go because we have book clubs and children 00:15:50.019 --> 00:15:52.379 have activities. And those are where my friends 00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:55.919 are. Do I go there for intellectual thought? 00:15:56.100 --> 00:15:58.679 Absolutely not. And what I sense and what I've 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.059 observed is that the Muslim community, you know, 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:04.519 maybe here in South Florida maybe I can generalize 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.279 I don't know is that you know how sometimes people 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.700 convert to Islam and they become so protective 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:16.259 right over what they know I even remember one 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:18.659 time having a conversation with Cat Stevens you 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:25.039 know the singer whose Muslim name I just forgot 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.799 right now I can't remember. Anyway, it'll come 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.940 back to me. So, you know, I remember meeting 00:16:31.940 --> 00:16:34.600 him in Dubai and, you know, we had spoken. Yusuf 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.399 Islam. Yusuf Islam. Thank you. You know, where 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.059 we came from, he told me about his journey. Sure. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.080 And I feel a lot of Muslims in the United States 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:50.120 are also like that. They're so insular and they 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.799 want to protect. They want to protect their mosques 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.879 and their community and their traditions and 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.419 their practices. And the reason why I say they, 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.460 even though I'm Muslim, is that I can no longer 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:04.079 relate to that. It's come to a stage where I 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:09.099 genuinely feel like oftentimes I have to not 00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:13.400 go to a Friday sermon or not go to a khutbah, 00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:17.180 because I have to protect my ears so that I can 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:21.500 protect my heart. It really impacts me a great 00:17:21.500 --> 00:17:26.519 deal. And I feel that... I feel so incredibly 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:30.740 disconnected. I can't overstate it enough. Yeah, 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:32.799 no, I mean, I think I felt, I mean, that's why 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.640 I think it's been, for me, what's been really 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.059 remarkable about the interfaith work, like working 00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:41.900 with different faith communities, is that you're 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:45.819 able to see very different perspectives or insights 00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:48.799 and have spiritual discussions that you're not 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:51.420 necessarily able to have within your own community. 00:17:52.360 --> 00:17:54.799 I think the Jain community has been remarkable 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.680 working with them because ideas of nonviolence, 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:02.799 for instance, just remarkable. Or the idea of 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:08.539 plurality of perspectives, right? You know, anekantavad 00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:11.519 or aparigraha, sort of the idea that we don't 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.519 want to, the non -acquisitiveness of sort of 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.930 living a life without sort of... desiring or 00:18:17.930 --> 00:18:20.549 attachment. You know, there are really remarkable 00:18:20.549 --> 00:18:25.289 aspects that I don't think are things that don't 00:18:25.289 --> 00:18:28.930 exist in Islam, but these are ideas and thoughts 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:31.349 that have existed in Islamic history and Islamic 00:18:31.349 --> 00:18:34.750 philosophy and Islamic theology that are just 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:39.369 not either known to American Muslims or for some 00:18:39.369 --> 00:18:41.690 reason they don't see it as relevant at all because, 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:46.450 you know, that sort of separation between the 00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:48.970 mystical and the legal like the focus is all 00:18:48.970 --> 00:18:51.150 on the law and just sort of observance of the 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:54.029 law rather than you know understanding the spirit 00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:55.950 and sort of the nature and the mystical aspects 00:18:55.950 --> 00:18:58.730 of the religious tradition very true and that's 00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:01.529 actually one of the main reasons why i chose 00:19:03.270 --> 00:19:07.789 to focus, when you go into a PhD program within 00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:11.269 Islamic theology, you have to focus on one of 00:19:11.269 --> 00:19:13.309 the four tracks. You can't just do everything. 00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:16.109 And so I focused on Islamic law and jurisprudence 00:19:16.109 --> 00:19:19.829 specifically because I found it to be so incredibly 00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:24.349 problematic. I found that, you know, even within 00:19:24.349 --> 00:19:27.210 the Muslim tradition, this idea that the Quran 00:19:27.210 --> 00:19:31.009 is protected, but then that translated to Hadith 00:19:31.009 --> 00:19:33.079 is protected, and that translated... to football 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.160 has predicted and I was just like well no I don't 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.480 know who told you that and who made that claim 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:43.220 and so this static rules and regulations that 00:19:43.220 --> 00:19:47.940 is cookie cutter that somehow needs to be universal 00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:51.480 and applied to all time and place has actually 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.559 no basis in this Islamic theology whatsoever. 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:59.680 And yet, it's a slapstick approach. And it's 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:02.980 behooving to me, to be honest with you. And so 00:20:02.980 --> 00:20:04.900 one of the reasons I went into it is because 00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:08.019 I found it so incredibly problematic. And I really 00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:13.500 felt the need to study it so that I can have 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.640 uh you know a more formed discussion about these 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.160 subjects right that's amazing well thank you 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.420 so much for sharing your spiritual journey two 00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:25.960 last questions um one is in terms of the interfaith 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:28.559 work um why do you think it's important what 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:33.559 do you hope to learn from it so uh i think that 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:39.160 my my understanding of interfaith work used to 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.359 be where two people from different traditions 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:44.839 come together and each one says what they want 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:47.640 to say and what they believe and then you know 00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:50.809 we have pastries and everybody goes home and 00:20:50.809 --> 00:20:53.349 then we pat each other on the back and say you 00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:56.369 know what we're like you know really swell people 00:20:56.369 --> 00:20:59.430 who just we're so open -minded and we got together 00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:01.710 I think that we're fooling ourselves when we 00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:05.230 do that I think that real interfaith work is 00:21:05.230 --> 00:21:09.589 when you genuinely make every effort in trying 00:21:09.589 --> 00:21:15.029 to imagine their truth as being yours and that's 00:21:15.029 --> 00:21:19.390 a very difficult thing to do but really is interfaith 00:21:19.390 --> 00:21:22.339 work often and I've been in lots of interfaith 00:21:22.339 --> 00:21:24.839 work, especially after September 11th, where 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.579 you're really just there to try to convince the 00:21:28.579 --> 00:21:30.759 other person of what you believe. And I don't 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:32.480 believe that that's interfaith work. I think 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.539 that you see two people just having a monologue. 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:39.640 It's not real dialogue. But it's very difficult. 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.180 What I'm saying is also very difficult because 00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:44.759 human beings, even if you belong into the same 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.460 tradition, even if you're two Muslims or two 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:52.410 Jewish people, you filter. knowledge and information 00:21:52.410 --> 00:21:56.349 through your own life lenses. And so my hope 00:21:56.349 --> 00:22:00.309 through all of the efforts that you're making 00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:02.869 and FIU is making in the Jewish -Muslim dialogue 00:22:02.869 --> 00:22:07.809 is for me to genuinely go to these gatherings 00:22:07.809 --> 00:22:10.890 really trying to understand somebody else's truth. 00:22:11.769 --> 00:22:15.430 Genuinely try to really embody that truth and 00:22:15.430 --> 00:22:19.630 also hope that perhaps I can share some of the 00:22:19.630 --> 00:22:21.769 truth. that I see as well and hope that they 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:25.109 may be able to, because ultimately the idea is 00:22:25.109 --> 00:22:27.710 that if we can really have that compassionate 00:22:27.710 --> 00:22:30.690 understanding of each other, then perhaps we 00:22:30.690 --> 00:22:34.099 can. go home to our families and to our communities 00:22:34.099 --> 00:22:37.440 and communicate other people's truth to one another. 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.240 And that's when, you know, real change hopefully 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.299 can happen so that we can live in a much better 00:22:44.299 --> 00:22:48.319 world where we live in harmony and safety and 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:52.279 pursue collective love and happiness that we 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:55.019 all human beings seek. I see. Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:55.380 --> 00:23:01.210 Good. Last question. What is your message to 00:23:01.210 --> 00:23:07.569 future generations? Well, I would say be a good 00:23:07.569 --> 00:23:11.410 person. I know that that sounds really cliche 00:23:11.410 --> 00:23:14.269 and very generous in general, and somebody might 00:23:14.269 --> 00:23:18.109 say, well, what does that really mean? I believe 00:23:18.109 --> 00:23:25.089 in a journey towards excellence in whatever you 00:23:25.089 --> 00:23:28.740 do, in character and conduct. Ultimately, those 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:32.980 are the two litmus tests for how we measure ourselves. 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.579 So the advice that I give to my children would 00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:38.960 be the same that I give here today is that really 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.079 elevate your character and conduct. Be the best 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:49.009 version of yourself. Invest in whatever God -given 00:23:49.009 --> 00:23:52.150 capabilities that you have to serve humanity 00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:55.869 in the best way. Uphold universal truths and 00:23:55.869 --> 00:24:02.930 really believe in the power of goodness. Wonderful. 00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:04.809 Well, thank you so much, Yasmin. It's been an 00:24:04.809 --> 00:24:08.069 honor and a pleasure having you and working with 00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:10.690 you and looking forward to many, many more conversations 00:24:10.690 --> 00:24:13.329 together. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:13.569 a lot.