Welcome back to another episode of Interfaith
Miami podcast here at FIU. We are honored to
have Yasmin here who is joining us and she's
part of our Muslim Jewish dialogue and she's
a local faith leader and a Muslim theologian.
So we're very honored to have her as part of.
our scholars. She's also a professor here at
FIU and teaches courses on religion in the Department
of Religious Studies. So we're very honored to
have you here with us. Talk to us a little bit
about yourself and your background. First of
all, I'm very honored to be here. I think this
is a great idea. So thank you so much for inviting
me on this show. My background. So Ethnically,
I come from the Middle East, Iraq, Turkey, Saudi
Arabia, add a little sprinkling of Armenian,
and then we found ourselves in the United States
when I was about to start college, and I have
been here, but I've really lived in three continents,
six countries, and seven states within the United
States. for a very long period of time. And I
spent 28 years in the Arab world, another five
years on top of that in Turkey. I was in Germany,
I was in England, and in many different places.
So I was exposed to a lot of different things.
And I can say that throughout the course of my
life, I think I've definitely, the one consistent
thing that I... can say about myself is I've
always been very curious about being a seeker
of truth and what that looked like. But what
that looked like for me in my early days was
very different than who I am now. But I'm grateful
for the transformation. Talk to us about your
spiritual progress. Okay. So I grew up in Saudi
Arabia. I was born and raised there. And my parents...
Unlike most non -Saudis who used to go to American
schools, British schools, French schools, etc.,
foreign schools that were tied to embassies,
my parents decided to put myself and my brothers
in Saudi schools, Saudi Arabian madrasas, hardcore
Islamic schools, where we studied five different
Islamic subjects every single day for 12 years.
and it was very strict it was highly segregated
it was very serious and it was you know it inculcated
a certain understanding a certain flavor of of
Sunni Islam typically today I don't I'd like
to shy away from labels but unfortunately we
live in a world where when you use language,
you have to really use labels too. So very loosely,
you know, Wahhabi or Salafi kind of. ideology
towards Islamic practice and so that was my upbringing
and then I came to the United States and all
of a sudden I was exposed to freedom of thought
and I didn't quite know what to do with it initially
I was overwhelmed and I had a very brief I would
say agnostic period and then I found that that
didn't really satiate me I couldn't make meaning
of it. I couldn't understand or grapple with
the idea that something comes from nothing. I
couldn't make sense of a world without grand
design. And so there are many different atheistic
tendencies that didn't sit well with me. So I
sought the truth at that time. And incidentally...
And this is a very important story because it
changed the course of my life. When I was 19
years old, one of my friends who actually wasn't
even Muslim from college gifted me a book. It
was called The Essentials of Rumi. And in Saudi
Arabia, all the books of Rumi at the time, not
now, at the time were banned. So I grew up not
knowing anything about the poet, philosopher,
theologian Jalal ad -Din Rumi. So when I first
picked up the book, and this was pre -internet
generation, I had no idea what it was. And the
gentleman, the boy who, you know, the guy who
gave it to me, he was just a normal friend. But
when I opened and I started reading some of the
poetry, it felt initially like it was a love
between a man and a woman. I couldn't understand
why he would give me this book. But then I quickly
understood that it was actually the love between
a human and the divine. And that really struck
me because, you know, you grew up in, theological
tradition that teaches you fear where you know
God is something that you feared God wasn't necessarily
something that you loved and I was like wait
what do you mean love God who loves God you fear
God and so I decided to go on this quest and
I have been on this journey since I was 19 years
old Wow of what it means to be in a love affair
with the divine okay and So you're also an Islamic
theologian. What does the study of Islam bring
to you? So, you know, even that has taken me
from one step to another where where i started
isn't where i am right now uh even in my own
uh beliefs and and and my theological evolution
uh initially uh after you know i became a seeker
of truth of this divine love it was i would again
have to use some labelings i was very interested
in the sufi path uh of uh of of um islam but
you know i was inculcated in sunni Hanafi Islam.
Those were the tendencies or the terminologies
that I was raised with. And so initially, I was
sort of pigeonholed within that. So my worldview,
I felt, was still quite narrow. So I drew upon
Sufi ideology, but I was still, I would say...
stuck with Sunni Hanafi Islam. And I can say
that quite confidently now because I feel that
I've broken those boundaries. So what unstuck
you? So what unstuck me is I felt that there
was a need for us to create these cages for ourselves
because that's where... felt comfortable and
you know it's how we were raised it was in my
environment it was our social sector we had created
these uh self -imposed restrictions and i felt
that you know if god is limitless then why can't
we expand our world view and see things from
other people's perspective there's you know we
have a world at the time now we're probably over
a billion at the time it was you know younger
but then the more you travel, I've traveled to
over 70 countries, and you go and you see so
many genuine people who grew up in different
environments, different families, right? Whether
they're Buddhist or even Hindu, things that were
so alien to me. We were like, oh, Hindus are
just idol worshipers. And you go into their temple,
and when you focus on the form, you might actually
say that because, you know, you see the elephant
and the snake and the monkey and so on and so
forth. Same thing with, I traveled all over the
Far East, right? You see different forms of Buddha
laying, standing. They look different, you know,
whether it's Taoist or Shinto or whatnot. But
then... I realized something very critical, and
this is my latest journey, which is when you
focus on the form, things can take you to a very
restricted place. But when you focus on the meaning,
you can very easily, or at least I was very easily,
able to understand what it really meant to say
we believe in the oneness of God. And to me,
that no longer means believing in the oneness
of God. you don't have statues in front of you
that you worship. Believing in the oneness of
God to me means that there's everything. manifest
from it. And the essence of all is one. The essence
of all creation is one. And so even my traditional
Islamic identity that was very much focused on
rituals and community, I really felt the need.
It was suffocating me. I felt that I had to break
those barriers. And I say this as a Muslim theologian,
actually, because My worldview of a Muslim theologian,
in my understanding, is a very inclusive, adaptive,
ever -evolving worldview of what Islam ought
to be, not necessarily what we see the form being
presented today. So you have a very unique perspective,
I think. within the Islamic tradition. I mean,
what is the reception by other Muslims then?
Oh, you know, generally, I don't, you know, I
try to, as an academic, you know, you have to
know your audience. Sure. So... Sometimes I take
a different approach. So depending on where I'm
at, if I'm invited to speak at a mosque, I try
to gauge, depending on the conversation, I have
to be harmonious and congruent with my beliefs.
So it's not like I can't say that I say something
I don't mean, but I have to use a language that
my audience is able to understand. And so sometimes
I don't approach subjects that I feel that, my
audience is not receptive to or i'm not really
invited there to talk about those subjects so
i keep a lot of my thoughts, unfortunately, to
myself, because I feel that the receptiveness
level is actually very low. There are very, very
few people, you certainly would be one of those
very few people, who I can sincerely say that
I would be able to express my Islamic beliefs
in a way where I don't feel like I would get
any backlash. So Are there any spaces I Mean
you've traveled all over the world. So are there
any Muslim communities where you feel? The most
sense of community where you're able to fully
be yourself So I would say More than a specific
country. Yeah, I would say where I felt the most
safe to able to sort of, or a community that
where I felt the most compatible with was a community
that I joined, loosely joined, it's not really
a club, but it's sort of a, you know, a community
in Istanbul, led by a lady, her name is Cemal
Nur Sargut, and her... outlook, her world, her
Islamic worldview really resonated with me. She
took me on a path of this thing that's known
in Tasawwuf called the nothingness, hijik, where
you lose yourself in, and it's a very philosophical
way, and it's very hard to do it justice in this
form, but it's a way where You really go on this
journey through different stations to fade away
in your love of the divine. Now, I'm very much
aware that I am a human being. I'm a mother.
I'm a spouse. I'm a daughter. And I have daily
responsibilities. But I feel that if you really
know how to stretch those spiritual muscles,
you can genuinely... live in that hal stage,
whether you're cooking or driving or working,
you really can't. Is it easy? No. I think it's
very difficult because we're human, we're fallible,
and we can get angry. But at least I have a destination.
At least I'm trying, I'm making an effort to
stretch those muscles in every... instance or
every moment of my life. Wow, that's very interesting.
Yeah, I mean, that's been something that growing
up in the United States, I think American Muslims
kind of think of themselves as being exceptional
in many ways. But in terms of, I think, the diversity
and complexity of Islamic thought, I... At least
from what I've seen, American Muslims are definitely
not at the cutting edge. I've seen some going
to even places like Pakistan, which you wouldn't
kind of think about. But there's some very interesting
discussions I've had in Lahore and Istanbul and
many of these other parts of the Islamic world
where you're in the thick of Islamic culture
and ideas, and you're actually able to be very
generative. Whereas I think In the United States,
I think there's just a lot less, I think, knowing
of the diversity of the Islamic tradition. And
then being a minority, you kind of feel, especially
after September 11th, so for the last 25 years
or so, being in a state of kind of having to
defend your religion. And so then there's very
little space for diversity of thought and sort
of opinion and things like that. I couldn't agree
more. I can only speak for South Florida. I've
definitely had a lot of engagement with the Muslim
community in all the seven states that I lived
in because I was always a seeker. I was always
a seeker of truth and I would try to go to different
congregations and mosques and so on. I can't
say in all honesty that there's a single Islamic
center here in South Florida that is anywhere
near where... where I would feel safe to be able
to examine some of those ideas at all. But do
I go? Do I go at least on a weekly basis? Absolutely.
But I go for the camaraderie. I go for the community.
We go because we have book clubs and children
have activities. And those are where my friends
are. Do I go there for intellectual thought?
Absolutely not. And what I sense and what I've
observed is that the Muslim community, you know,
maybe here in South Florida maybe I can generalize
I don't know is that you know how sometimes people
convert to Islam and they become so protective
right over what they know I even remember one
time having a conversation with Cat Stevens you
know the singer whose Muslim name I just forgot
right now I can't remember. Anyway, it'll come
back to me. So, you know, I remember meeting
him in Dubai and, you know, we had spoken. Yusuf
Islam. Yusuf Islam. Thank you. You know, where
we came from, he told me about his journey. Sure.
And I feel a lot of Muslims in the United States
are also like that. They're so insular and they
want to protect. They want to protect their mosques
and their community and their traditions and
their practices. And the reason why I say they,
even though I'm Muslim, is that I can no longer
relate to that. It's come to a stage where I
genuinely feel like oftentimes I have to not
go to a Friday sermon or not go to a khutbah,
because I have to protect my ears so that I can
protect my heart. It really impacts me a great
deal. And I feel that... I feel so incredibly
disconnected. I can't overstate it enough. Yeah,
no, I mean, I think I felt, I mean, that's why
I think it's been, for me, what's been really
remarkable about the interfaith work, like working
with different faith communities, is that you're
able to see very different perspectives or insights
and have spiritual discussions that you're not
necessarily able to have within your own community.
I think the Jain community has been remarkable
working with them because ideas of nonviolence,
for instance, just remarkable. Or the idea of
plurality of perspectives, right? You know, anekantavad
or aparigraha, sort of the idea that we don't
want to, the non -acquisitiveness of sort of
living a life without sort of... desiring or
attachment. You know, there are really remarkable
aspects that I don't think are things that don't
exist in Islam, but these are ideas and thoughts
that have existed in Islamic history and Islamic
philosophy and Islamic theology that are just
not either known to American Muslims or for some
reason they don't see it as relevant at all because,
you know, that sort of separation between the
mystical and the legal like the focus is all
on the law and just sort of observance of the
law rather than you know understanding the spirit
and sort of the nature and the mystical aspects
of the religious tradition very true and that's
actually one of the main reasons why i chose
to focus, when you go into a PhD program within
Islamic theology, you have to focus on one of
the four tracks. You can't just do everything.
And so I focused on Islamic law and jurisprudence
specifically because I found it to be so incredibly
problematic. I found that, you know, even within
the Muslim tradition, this idea that the Quran
is protected, but then that translated to Hadith
is protected, and that translated... to football
has predicted and I was just like well no I don't
know who told you that and who made that claim
and so this static rules and regulations that
is cookie cutter that somehow needs to be universal
and applied to all time and place has actually
no basis in this Islamic theology whatsoever.
And yet, it's a slapstick approach. And it's
behooving to me, to be honest with you. And so
one of the reasons I went into it is because
I found it so incredibly problematic. And I really
felt the need to study it so that I can have
uh you know a more formed discussion about these
subjects right that's amazing well thank you
so much for sharing your spiritual journey two
last questions um one is in terms of the interfaith
work um why do you think it's important what
do you hope to learn from it so uh i think that
my my understanding of interfaith work used to
be where two people from different traditions
come together and each one says what they want
to say and what they believe and then you know
we have pastries and everybody goes home and
then we pat each other on the back and say you
know what we're like you know really swell people
who just we're so open -minded and we got together
I think that we're fooling ourselves when we
do that I think that real interfaith work is
when you genuinely make every effort in trying
to imagine their truth as being yours and that's
a very difficult thing to do but really is interfaith
work often and I've been in lots of interfaith
work, especially after September 11th, where
you're really just there to try to convince the
other person of what you believe. And I don't
believe that that's interfaith work. I think
that you see two people just having a monologue.
It's not real dialogue. But it's very difficult.
What I'm saying is also very difficult because
human beings, even if you belong into the same
tradition, even if you're two Muslims or two
Jewish people, you filter. knowledge and information
through your own life lenses. And so my hope
through all of the efforts that you're making
and FIU is making in the Jewish -Muslim dialogue
is for me to genuinely go to these gatherings
really trying to understand somebody else's truth.
Genuinely try to really embody that truth and
also hope that perhaps I can share some of the
truth. that I see as well and hope that they
may be able to, because ultimately the idea is
that if we can really have that compassionate
understanding of each other, then perhaps we
can. go home to our families and to our communities
and communicate other people's truth to one another.
And that's when, you know, real change hopefully
can happen so that we can live in a much better
world where we live in harmony and safety and
pursue collective love and happiness that we
all human beings seek. I see. Yeah, absolutely.
Good. Last question. What is your message to
future generations? Well, I would say be a good
person. I know that that sounds really cliche
and very generous in general, and somebody might
say, well, what does that really mean? I believe
in a journey towards excellence in whatever you
do, in character and conduct. Ultimately, those
are the two litmus tests for how we measure ourselves.
So the advice that I give to my children would
be the same that I give here today is that really
elevate your character and conduct. Be the best
version of yourself. Invest in whatever God -given
capabilities that you have to serve humanity
in the best way. Uphold universal truths and
really believe in the power of goodness. Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much, Yasmin. It's been an
honor and a pleasure having you and working with
you and looking forward to many, many more conversations
together. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks
a lot.