Pam, thank you so much for coming. My name, of
course, is Iqbal Akhtar, and this is another
episode of our podcast on Interfaith Miami, looking
and connecting to the leaders of the interfaith
movement here in South Florida. So we are very
honored to have Pam here with us, and we want
you to talk to us a little bit about your background
and your history. Okay, I'd be more than happy
to. Thank you for inviting me to join you for
this. Of course. So my name is Pamela Lear. I've
lived in Miami for 13 years now. Moved here from
Southern California. And I lived in Southern
California 30 years. Prior to that, I was an
Air Force kid. So I've traveled all over the
world. I've lived in a whole variety of places,
including six, seven different states and overseas.
Okay. Two different times. And I'd say... In
regard to the Jewish community, I've always been
very active. It's always been a large part of
my identity. However, the first 10 years of my
life when we lived on Air Force bases, it was
not really relevant. It wasn't part of my life.
I don't think I even knew I was Jewish, to be
perfectly honest. Although my family is of Ashkenazi
background, has been for many, many years, going
back I think at least as many generations as
we can count. I'll put it that way. And then
I moved to Memphis, Tennessee, which a lot of
people don't know is actually... a fabulous Jewish
community. It's large, it's active, it's got
plenty of resources, and it was one of the best
places I could imagine growing up Jewish. At
the same time, it was the 1970s, and segregation
and busing were in full force. So I was in the
midst of a community that was struggling hugely,
primarily with the African American community,
but really with anyone who was not Southern and
white, to be honest. And there was a significant
degree of anti -Semitism even back then. in the
1970s. It's come and gone over the years. So
my Jewish identity is very important to me, always
has been. But it's also been unique in that I've
been living in numerous different places over
the years. So you said that you lived abroad.
Where did you live? So I lived abroad in Japan
with the Air Force when my father was in the
service. And I also lived abroad in Ireland when
my husband got a job over there. My children
were ages two and six. That must have been interesting.
So how was that experience, Levine? It was fascinating.
I'm really grateful that I got to have it. It
was really insightful into another population,
I'd say. Now, this was before a lot of immigrants
had moved to Ireland, which has happened in the
last 20 years. This was 25 years ago. And what
I saw that was probably most interesting to me...
was the long -lasting effect on the Irish people
of the British occupation. The British having
been in there during the potato famine, during
the times of feudal periods, during times when
they just kept the Irish down. And even then,
at that point, which was, what, 50, 60 years
later, after Ireland had its independence, at
least the southern part of Ireland, I still saw
so much repercussion. from that and so many people
who were having a very difficult time um learning
how to be independent on their own really to
stand up straight i could literally walk into
a shop and someone would say oh so you're an
american how did you know yeah and they would
say well it's the way you walked in you walked
in looked around like you own the place we irish
we don't do that that's very interesting yeah
yeah i know the the impact of Yeah, the English
colonization, I think it had a huge impact in
terms of, yeah. It did. It did. And the impact,
I think, of growing up in the Mid -South, which
is what Memphis, Tennessee is considered. Right.
It's also called the Bible Belt. Right. Part
of that culture. And having people work in our
home. My father was a physician, so we had a
very comfortable life. And having people work
in the home who were never quite like us. Did
people in Memphis know you were Jewish? Yes and
no. Okay. We were a very active part of the Jewish
community. We had a huge Jewish community center.
I did things. I was very fortunate. I went away
to Jewish camp every summer for eight or nine
weeks. It was a fabulous experience. Went to
synagogue a lot. I even was a bat mitzvah at
the age of 13, which a lot of Jews nowadays don't
experience, girls at least. At the same time,
we had to be careful. My mother was a radio broadcaster.
And she had a talk show on air every afternoon
for a number of years. And she didn't use my
father's last name when she was on air. Because
number one, he was a known physician. And number
two, it was a Jewish name. The name was Rosen,
R -O -S -E -N. Rosen, okay. Which he had actually
shortened from Rosenzweig. Sure. Which was the
German name his family had been given. His parents
were still Rosenzweigs. Okay. But he had shortened
it because, as he said... The nurses can't pronounce
it. No one can spell it. But it was also part
of assimilating into America. So my mother used
her, actually, first name and middle name, Sherry
Lee, when she was on the radio. And she interviewed
people of all different faiths, colors, backgrounds,
etc. She even interviewed, I forget his name
at the moment, but the fellow who led the Ku
Klux Klan for years. She interviewed all kinds
of celebrities. But there were also a lot of,
she also worked as a journalist. And so she got
to know people in difficult situations who were
being kept down, kept in their place, so to speak,
because of culture or religion. And I know that
she fought for some of them and she stood up
for the rights of various people. And I know
this from newspaper articles because I was a
teenager and I didn't care. To be honest, I learned
more about my mother after she passed away than
I really knew when she was alive. So, yeah, I
mean, it's very interesting because I think,
like, being in the South, you're kind of, there's
this point, like, you're both Jewish and also
seen as white, I think, right? Correct. Always
felt white. Right. Always felt that way. Yeah.
And so you're kind of, like, in between these
sorts of identities. I wasn't impacted directly
by anti -Semitism. Okay. With a few exceptions.
Stories for things like I went to a, I did because
of the busing and all of that. My parents did
send me to a very small elite private school.
But we had a lot of different people there, and
I'll never forget things like people tossing
out coins on the floor, saying, let's watch the
Jews go pick up the coins. Because there was
this reputation that the Jewish people were scrambling
for money. I had a job at one point with a boss
who was a Methodist preacher, I think. But we
were in a business circumstance. We were on our
way to meet a client. And we're in the car, and
he's strategizing how to deal with the client.
And he says, you know, we've got to do them down.
Wow. And I'm pretty forward, so I did say I find
that very offensive, and we need to talk about
why that kind of language is not okay. So the
encounters I've had have been difficult, but
they didn't affect me personally in terms of
who I am and what I'm able to be doing. So at
what point did your sense of Jewish identity
and Jewish consciousness come to the fore? Was
there an event? in your life that you can say,
okay, well, this is really when, yeah. So when
we moved to Memphis, Tennessee, my father, again,
I was 11 years old. My father and mother decided
that it was time to join the Jewish community,
which they'd always been a part of growing up.
And one year we went to the Yom Kippur service,
which is the highest holiday of the year. It's
a day when you fast. It's a day when you're...
really asking for forgiveness for all of the
things you've done wrong. Like a day of atonement.
A day of atonement, exactly. And a day when they
open the gates or close the gates on whatever
your life will be this next year. So we're sitting
in the synagogue. My father and I went by ourselves
for some reason. And about midway through the
service, he turns to me and he says, you want
to get out of here? I've been in Hebrew school.
I'm learning from my bat mitzvah. I'm 12 or 13
years old at this point. And I said, well, what
do you mean? He says, let's go. Let's go get
something to eat. And I'm very... What's the
word? I'm very inculcated at this point in what
I'm learning in Hebrew school. And my dad's saying,
let's get out of here. So we got up and left.
What do you do? And we went over to one of those
hibachi restaurants. And we ordered shrimp and
steak and all of these things. Shrimp is not
a Jewish food. It's not kosher. You don't eat
on Yom Kippur. You don't do all of these things.
And here my dad is breaking all the rules. And
sending me to Hebrew school at the same time
to say, You need to learn how to be Jewish. So
I felt a real disconnect there. And I feel like
that was a time when I had to make a decision.
Is this really my thing? Is this who I am? Or
is this not who I am? And I really believe it
was at that age that I decided this matters to
me. This sense of religion, of spirituality,
of community, of faith is something that matters
to me a lot. And it was right at that point I
made that decision. And my parents continued
to support me in that decision, but it wasn't
the way they chose to go. And we see that with
families. People go this way, people go that
way. And it is a choice. For me, it was a choice
to be a part of the Jewish community. Okay. Wow,
that's amazing. So then you ended up, you also
got married. Talk to us a little bit from your
youth and then kind of how your relationship
to Judaism changed as you got older. Okay. So
I went off to college in California from Tennessee
when I was 17. And I met my husband almost immediately.
My husband is not Jewish. This month we're celebrating
our 41st anniversary. Wow. Congratulations. Thank
you. And we have two children. So my husband
has never really laid claim to a religion that
he... cares about i'd say and he loves the judaism
he's never converted i've never asked him to
i think that's a personal decision um he's never
converted but he's always been supportive we've
always belonged to a synagogue we've always been
part of the community part of the activities
he comes to services and knows a few of the prayers
in hebrew now which is very exciting for me And
he has a lot of friends in the Jewish community
as well. Interestingly enough, we have two children
who are grown now in their mid -30s, and they're
both with Jewish partners, which is kind of like
a dream come true. I'm not sure how that happened,
but I did try to give them a good Jewish education
and to let them know how important it is, to
me at least, with the hopes that that would carry
on, and it seems to have done so. And that's
great. And here we are, 41 years, my husband
is still as supportive as ever when it comes
to my Judaism. And I do feel like it's a very
personal choice. If I had married someone Jewish,
it would have been a different ballgame. I don't
know how different, though, because I can't do
that. Yeah, exactly. So what is, as you were
transmitting these values, what did Judaism mean
to you? Oh, Judaism is my identity, to be honest.
It's my basic identity and has been ever since
I was 11, 12 years old. Judaism to me is a sense
of self. It's a sense of spirituality. It's a
sense of religion in regards to faith, study,
learning, being a part of a community that is
always growing, always learning, and always reaching
out to try and make this world a better place.
And I like being a part of that. I find that
it gives my life purpose and value and meaning.
My relationship to the Jewish community is my...
Primary focus, in all honesty. I've participated
in many, many ways and continue to do so. What
does it mean to be an American? What does it
mean to be an American? It means to have freedom,
which I hope will continue. We've often pondered
the question, am I a Jewish American or am I
an American Jew? And that's always been an issue
in my mind because my grandparents were all Jewish
and they were... more assimilated, but they work
to be more assimilated, I should say. It's interesting.
My father passed away recently. He wrote a letter
to us four kids. I'm one of them, the oldest
of four children. And he wrote a letter to us
and he said, the one regret I have is not understanding
how difficult it was for my parents, his parents,
my grandparents in the 1930s as Americans, even
though they weren't in Europe and they didn't
experience the Holocaust and Nazism and all that,
how difficult it was in the 30s for them. So
he grew up with that, and I believe that that
came through to me in whatever way we have our
generational, we call it generational trauma,
but our generational messages we pass on. It
came to me that we are a people who need to exist
and will survive and will go through difficult
times. But to be an American to me means a sense
of freedom, the ability to speak my mind. and
to belong to the organizations I wish to belong
to, and more importantly, to interact with the
people I choose to interact with. That's right.
Because I choose to interact with more than just
the Jewish community. I think that's where this
interfaith work comes in. Yeah, it's amazing.
I choose to interact with people of all different
faiths, nationalities, colors, backgrounds, you
name it. There's a lot of opportunity out there
to get to know others. Absolutely. And to learn
and grow, and hopefully together, build a better
world. Absolutely. That's very interesting because
I know, so from my understanding, your family
didn't directly go through the Holocaust, but
it had a huge impact, I think, for the American
Jewish community as a whole. Talk to us a little
bit about that. My family did not go through
the Holocaust directly. All of my grandparents
came to this country around the turn of the century.
They were all escaping the pogroms in Russia,
so they were all escaping for religious reasons.
and leaving. But they all spoke English. All
the grandparents I knew spoke perfect English.
Some of them still knew a little Yiddish, not
a lot. But I think what happened was after the
Holocaust, and I've read about this some, there
was a real deep need amongst the Jewish people
to teach the children about what happened. So
I was inundated as a child with Holocaust education.
And I remember going to a conference for BBYO.
the Benebrith Youth Organization, of which I
was a very active part, and even writing a script
for a story I told that was about being in a
concentration camp, as if I had been there. The
education was so hard -hitting. I think they
might have overdone it a little bit. But it was
very important because we had to learn never
again. Never again can we let this happen. And
I think the Holocaust is very deep within...
within me, as is much of Jewish history. Because
the Holocaust is probably the worst thing that's
ever happened, but there's so many other instances
in history where, unfortunately, the Jewish people
have been subjugated. There are also times where
they have subjugated others, and this is a world
we live in that is just not, humankind is not
that kind to each other. It's very unfortunate.
So as an American Jew, or Jewish American, what
does Israel mean to you then? Israel means an
opportunity. Okay. I think that's the way I see
it. Unlike some of my cohort at the synagogue
in Temple Beth Am, I've only been to Israel once
in my whole life, and I was 22 years old. And
I'll be perfectly honest, the reason I went is
my parents sent me to try and get me to leave
my non -Jewish boyfriend. That's why they sent
me. They failed. I came back and married him.
But it had a tremendous impact on me. Israel
to me is, they use, they, we use the word promised
land, Eretz Israel, we use a lot of different
terminology. To me, it's an opportunity that
I believe needs to exist in a certain shape and
form for people to realize that the Jewish people,
as small as we are, we are teeny tiny, 0 .2 %
of the population of the world are tiny. We have
a right to exist and a right to survive. Albeit,
I hate to think of it being to the detriment
of others. But again, I look at history and I'm
not sure how to do it in a way that everyone's
going to be happy. But Israel is very important
to me, yes. I can't sing Hatikvah, which is the
national anthem, without crying. I just can't
even do it. Okay. Yeah. Okay. You said that you
talked a little bit about you had some experience
with anti -Semitism when you were growing up.
How do you see anti -Semitism today in the United
States? In the United States, I do not experience
it personally, directly, very often. The last
time I experienced it was when my son, who's
now in his 30s, was in high school and someone
drew Nazi swastikas all over his notebook. And
we went to the principal and the principal said,
boys will be boys. What can I tell you? That
was the response we got. Other than that, I hear
a lot. I read a lot. I am aware of a lot. There
are some things that frighten me when I hear
about them. But honestly, we've created a world.
We're a little bit in a bubble. I think we're
a little bit in a bubble where we feel very,
very safe. And I think we as Jewish people. need
to get out of that bubble more often, and we
need to be really brutally honest about what
we see in the world and what we want to make
happen in the world. And it's very hard for a
lot of people to be that honest and that blunt.
But I feel as if we don't have a choice. We are
human beings. We are normal people like anyone
else. We may have a slightly different perspective,
but doesn't everyone have, depending on where
they grew up, what they learned, how they were
educated, what they've experienced? We're all
unique human beings and I wish we could all focus
more on that fact than the fact that we have
these different ideas about the world. I'd like
to think there's one God up there that really
just wants us to get along and say, come on guys,
work a little harder, you can do this. So what
is your vision for the world? I mean, where do
you see, I mean, what would you like the world
to look like? What would I like the world to
look like? Based on history, I am concerned.
because I don't think we've ever seen a time
in history where there hasn't been war. I think
it is apparently human nature to battle with
each other, to want the power, to profit from,
to feel comfortable with. I think there's a human
nature part of us that fears, and I think this
is what it maybe really is, a human nature part
of us that fears not having something that we,
for whatever reason, believe we deserve or we
own. The way I look at it, we don't really own
anything. We are here on this earth. We are taking
advantage of what we can while we can. For a
short time. Hopefully taking care of it and treating
it as just like our lives. This is lent to us
on a very... Our lives are not even ours in a
sense. We do what we can with them, but our lives
are short. And once you're gone, you're gone.
You can leave an influence, but only to some
degree. Right. And I wish that... We could see
a world where people realize I'm a tiny part
of something very big, very important, and very,
very beautiful. And I want to just make it more
beautiful. I want to get along. I want to learn
more about each other. I've had a chance to meet
your little son. He's only a year old now. Many
times. And I want that little baby to know that
I'm just another human being who cares about
him and cares about his welfare as much as anyone
does. Absolutely. I think that's the world we
need to create is the world where we listen to
each other, where we learn to dialogue and listen
in ways that for whatever reason we weren't taught.
I heard you interviewing someone a little bit
earlier and asking about, I forget the term you
used, but the way we treat each other. And I
remember when I was teaching sixth grade at one
point, I've had a couple of different careers,
when I was teaching sixth grade and I realized
that the kids in my class were just not... really
being kind to each other. And I remember creating
these big posters with words on them that had
to do with our behavior. And I hung them up from
the ceiling all over the room. And every week
we talked about a different one. Yeah, that's
what I'm trying to focus on practically doing
research and thinking about character and value
formation. Yeah, and that's really important.
you know, something that we've kind of lost,
I think, in terms of education. We focus on the
technical aspect of, like, science or, you know,
sort of these terminologies. But if you're not
given these intellectual tools, like humility
and things like that, then it's very, very difficult
to create a better society and a better world,
right? And those things start. Kindness, generosity.
Absolutely. You know, just giving each other
the benefit of the doubt. I think I have a book
in me. I've been writing it for a couple of years,
actually. That's good. About giving people the
benefit of the doubt. Because we are not raised
to think that way. We are raised to pass judgment.
Very easily, yeah. And that's a shame. That's
a shame. In Yiddish, we call it a shanda. It's
a shanda. It's a shame. But it's something we
can fix. And that gives me hope. What does tikkun
olam mean to you? Tikkun olam is sort of a translation
of repairing the world. That's what people will
tell you. It really means a little bit more than
that. Because it comes from a Kabbalistic...
background, and I don't know if you know much
about Kabbalah, but Kabbalah is basically a mystical
Jewish belief that began many, many years ago.
And it goes relatively deep. It can go very,
very deep. So Tikkun Olam is the concept of making
the world whole, more than repairing the world.
Kabbalah has a concept of the world initially
being... I don't know. I forget all the terminology.
It's been a few years since I studied it. But
the whole world being something that was shattered
at one point. And God pulled himself back from
it. I don't like to say himself. God pulled God's
self back from it. And there were shards everywhere.
But he pulled himself back so that people could
create and to give people an opportunity to build
back what had been created. He needed to. to
do that in order for people to have an opportunity
to be human. And our job is to put all those
pieces back together. That's the Kabbalistic
idea of what the world, why we're here and what
we're doing. And Tikkun Olam is not just repairing
the world, but it's bringing it back to a whole.
That's what it means to me. That's beautiful.
Thank you. It's more than just doing good deeds.
There's a term, mitzvah, we use a lot. A mitzvah
is a good deed. This is not really a good deed.
A mitzvah is a commandment from the Torah that
tells us this is what you need to do in order
to make this world whole again. Yeah. So mitzvot
and tikkun olam and all of those ideas, I think
they're all about making the world a better place.
Right, exactly. You know, for all of us, especially
for our children and our grandchildren. Yeah,
absolutely. Two more questions. One, in terms
of this Jewish -Muslim dialogue, what are some
of the things that you are hoping to learn? We're
really, you know, very happy that you're part
of it, and you have done so much, I think, in
terms of, like, you go very deep into the materials
and the ideas, and you're very, very thorough,
which I think really, you bring a lot, I think,
to the discussion. Thank you. Yeah. So what was
your question again? What more do you hope to
learn from this Jewish -Muslim dialogue? So much.
I could never learn enough. I hope to learn more
about the individual people, more than anything.
I want to learn who they are, what makes their
heart tick, what really matters deep down. I
think, for example, when we talk about the Israel
-Palestine situation, I feel like a lot of us
are putting out bullet points. We read in the
news, this happened, and this happened, and this
happened, and this happened. We're referring
to a specific story of history. Right, exactly.
And yet there's so much more nuance, and there
are so many more layers to get into. And I mean,
I have very mixed feelings about a lot of what's
going on. I love Israel. I am absolutely adamant
that the Jewish people survive and exist. At
the same time, there are a lot of layers to this
because we're all human. Of course, yeah. And
I do see... I feel like I could argue a number
of different sides of it. So what I hope to gain
from it, or what I hope will happen, is just
more humanity, more ability to listen, more ability
to say, oh, if I knew that you were from here
and you had experienced that and you had gone
through this, now I see you more as a human being
rather than someone who's... telling me the history
all over again because I've heard it all. Right,
exactly. We know all the bullet points. Exactly.
I think what's been helpful, I think, and I think
what we'll try to do also on Friday as well,
is like talking about that emotional journey,
I think, which is a really important part of
that. I like that. To think about, because a
lot of times what ends up happening is that our
reaction and the way that we process the world
tends to be emotional. And then we kind of create
a logical kind of overlay of it. So I think being
able to get to sort of the emotional and I think
something that you talked about, which I think
was very important, is the Holocaust. I think
that is something that is in the background of
this entire discussion and this idea of what
it means to have a homeland, to have safety.
And, you know, that's something that's very basic.
If you don't have that, then you're really not
able to talk about anything else beyond that,
you know. And it's part of why I'm so grateful
to be an American. Yeah. Because I do feel secure.
Yeah, no, it's very interesting that, you know,
this background of being, I mean, you can't be
any more American than being in the military,
right? So, like, being part of that world and
that culture, and then also having all these
different layers of identity and then being able
to see the world through many different perspectives,
I think is really quite remarkable. It's interesting
you say that, too, because in my father's letter
when he passed on just a few months ago, again,
he talked about how much he loved being American.
It was really important to him. He was in the
service. My brother was in the Navy life career.
My father was in the service. I'm sorry, I said
that already. My brother, my son was in the Marine
Corps for 10 years, and my husband was in the
Air Force. So we have four members being in four
different elements of the service, and I think
that has influenced me quite a bit. It's a very
different world than people who've... Never had
family in the military. So how did your dad react
to the creation of the State of Israel? I think
he was for it initially. He thought it would
be a good idea, knowing everything that happened
in Europe. Over time, he became somewhat anti
-Zionist, to be honest. And by the time he died,
he wanted nothing to do with any of it. He was
a little bit of a radical, and he tended to speak
his mind. I don't know where I got that from.
He became very anti -Zionist. Okay. He felt that
Israel had gone about becoming a state and establishing
its, especially with, I won't go into specifics
right now, but especially with the number of
things that they'd done, he didn't agree. Okay.
He didn't agree with what they were doing. He
was always very Jewish at heart. Right. But he
was not happy with the way things were going
there. Right. I mean, that's something that's
been very remarkable, you know, working with
Temple Bethlehem, just to see the, range in the
diversity of perspectives and beliefs, and that
at the same time everyone is able to come together
as people of the Jewish faith. Well, if I can
tell you one thing about Judaism, probably my
favorite thing about Judaism, is that we are
taught to argue. We are taught to disagree. We
are not taught that the Torah says this and this
is what it means. Ever. Ever. We are taught this
is what we understand the language to mean, and
you study Biblical Hebrew if you want to get
a better grasp of that. But what it means, how
you interpret it, and how you apply it to your
life today, much less to history, is up to you.
And you are respected for arguing about it. You're
not told, no, you're wrong, it's this way. You
are respected for that. And that is one thing
I appreciate about being Jewish. Probably my
favorite thing. So the last question, similar
to what we were telling Joe, but what is the
message that you want to communicate to future
generations? Oh, my message to future generations
is that there's so much to hope for. I think
we have a lot of reason to be very positive,
to be very optimistic. I look at the next generation,
my kids' generation, the millennials, as they
call them. And they're so smart. They're so capable.
They're so educated. They have such amazing resources.
I believe that they will create the world through
different eyes than we did. And then I look at
the grandchildren. I have two grandchildren who
are the most beautiful creatures in the world
to me, of course. And they only know positivity.
They're still young enough. They're six and seven
years old. They're still young enough that they
believe anything's possible. You know, the world
is a beautiful place. It's a beautiful place
and that's all there is to it. Absolutely. And
they're growing up knowing more and more people
from other backgrounds than we did. And so I
believe there's a tremendous reason to hope and
believe that it's a beautiful world we live in.
We're very fortunate to be here. And I tend to
look more towards gratitude for what we do have
than being angry. and upset about what we don't
have. We need to be resilient. We need to be
resilient. Absolutely, yeah. No one's life would
be easy. Yeah, yeah. I think that humility and
gratitude are very important concepts, I think.
Absolutely critical. For not just our ability
to... get along with other people but also just
you know that resilience within the self right
spiritual resilience and and helping others with
resilience absolutely you know I have so many
people sometimes we'll sit down and we'll talk
and they're so negative and they're so they're
distraught right I shouldn't say negative they're
distraught about the state of the world hopeless
yeah I'm like wait a minute let's look at all
these great things that are happening exactly
there's a lot and all these good people we know
right It can't be all bad. Exactly. It's hard,
you know, it's like they say you do 100 things,
one of them goes wrong. Right. What do you think
about the one that went wrong? Right, exactly.
Wait, there were 99 other things. Exactly correct.
Absolutely. That's how I look at the world, at
least. Well, thank you so much, Pam. It's been
very inspiring. Thank you. This interview and
especially having you. part of our dialogue group
at Temple Beth Am. So thank you for your inspirational
leadership. And I have enjoyed this interview
very much. Thank you. Great job. Wonderful. Looking
forward to it. Thank you again.