All right, welcome to another episode of the
Interfaith Podcast, which is a podcast with our
FIU online courses in Religious Studies and Politics
and International Relations. I'm your host, Professor
Iqbal Akhtar, and we're very honored to have
two... guests who are students in our Jewish
-Muslim dialogue group. They've been very consistent,
which has been great to have them come and talk
to us. They're going to talk to us a little bit
about who they are, their background, what they're
studying, and then we'll get into kind of the
dynamics of sort of interfaith dialogue, especially
among students. So take it away. I'm Sarah Correa.
I'm a sophomore here at FIU. I joined the class
because I love studying religion, and it's not
my major, so any class I can take that's related
to it, I definitely jumped on it, especially
because it was one credit. I had some professors
recommend it and got to meet some interesting
people. Are you in the Honors College too? I
am. Okay. Hello, my name is Sarah Nosegood. I'm
from Germany, but originally I'm from Turkey.
What was the question again? Tell us a little
bit about yourself. More about myself. Yeah,
I also participated in the Jewish Muslim Fellowship.
I'm Muslim. I was born and raised actually as
a Muslim. I was a long time, though I raised
as a Catholic. I went to a Catholic elementary
school, a Catholic kindergarten. Also during
my high school time, especially my final diploma,
I took Catholic courses. Okay. So I was dealing
with a lot of, like, Catholicism as religion.
A long time I was still agnostic throughout my
youth. And more like the last three years, I
found myself more in my parents' religion. I
deal with it more. And, yeah, I fell in love
with it and I embraced it. Okay. Well, tell us
a little bit about your religious background.
So I'm Christian. Both of my parents are Christian.
We've become more into our faith since COVID.
We spent a lot more time together and realized
that we need to be more grounded in our beliefs.
But yeah, I'm Protestant. My father's side of
the family is Catholic. My other side of the
family is closer to Seventh -day Adventists.
So kind of in the middle of those ideologies.
Okay, interesting. And what are you guys studying
and what do you plan on doing? So I'm studying
here at College of Economics. I'm thinking of
doing a double major. What my double major is
going to be, I don't know. I'm thinking of maybe
doing something in finance, maybe going into
computer science. I like also those international
relations things that we do, or like the science
stuff. So I'm really still finding myself, so
what I should do? I think religious studies would
be great. I would take your courses. Of course.
Please. I'm doing international relations. I'll
definitely tell you to do that. So I'm doing
that through SIPA and then business and government
leadership through the Adam Smith Center. OK.
All right. Great. And then you're and you're
going to D .C. in next semester. Yeah, hopefully
I'm halfway there. I got into the D .C. campus,
but I haven't really found an internship yet.
But I'm back hopefully two weeks. OK, great.
OK, good. And so what. brought you to the jewish
muslim dialogue um course so for me it's like
um as i said i'm very raised in germany I went
to the high school of Josef Goebbels. I was born
and raised in Mönchengladbach, which is in Germany.
And particularly my high school, we call it Gymnasium,
was his Gymnasium. So during the time of the
Nazi era, it was called also the Josef Goebbels
Gymnasium because it was his. And our city has,
since it was his home city, had a strong relationship
with the Nazi regime. So especially our city
is doing and engaging a lot of anti -Semitism
workshops. remembrance culture. So this is how
I grew up. I was participating, but also volunteering
in a lot of those kind of events, fostering more
democratization, fighting against radicalization,
extremism, political extremism, but also particularly
anti -Semitism. I was hosting some of those events
as well, like working on project management.
We invited the mayor, for instance, and other
institutional nonprofit organizations that help
us doing engaging in this. Personally, I see
myself, as I said, as a Muslim, but... Because
I was more into Wahhabism, much more Islamic
extremism. I was lost for it inside that. It's
very difficult to notice it. That's why, as you
know, I got out of it. And it's like, I have
much more mission to like help people to understand
that this form of radicalization is not good.
That human beings should live their life as they
want to live it. And that we shouldn't have the
right to judge. interfere in the lives of people
we should help people to yeah as i said like
leave in peace and harmony and so what um what
took you out of wahhabism what took me out of
wahhabism so The thing is that I had a very difficult
relationship with Islam in the beginning. My
father was very forceful when it came to religion.
My mom is a Kemalist, so she has a lot of things
to do with religion in general. They take it
much more private and say that liberal, like
secularist. So they say that you should do it
when you want to do it, but nobody's going to
force you to do it. My father is much more conservative,
so he would force it on you. He would be like,
when you want to go traveling with me, you need
to memorize this in this chapter of the Quran.
be like i'm too lazy to do this i'm not into
it on the other hand i was also delayed in the
mosque so i have um for a long time had really
problems with like self -esteem and self -confidence
and those kind of moments like when i was a child
it shaped me a lot so i it instilled me like
an hate against islam so for a long time i didn't
want to have anything to do with it uh this is
for like a longer time then during covid i see
very similar i found myself much more theism
i engaged much more with the question of god
and it was i think very important for a lot of
people during that time and i found myself much
more into also islamic theology i was studying
it much more and it was mostly all the social
media tiktok and instagram islam which is basically
extremism prime so there you go embrace and got
indoctrinated in a sim like in a small way um
i never noticed it though so i accepted it as
a true spam and people see arabs as muslims we
do we should we consider arabs as the good muslims
or like the perfect example as muslims so you
would dress like them with red things like them
you would talk like them and you would be like
really fully obsessed with like the arabic culture
The thing is that Saudi Arabia is the prime example
for, as I said, Wahhabism. So I would try to
be more like them. Until there was a girl she
wanted to convert and I helped her to get into
a mosque. But I never knew the imam that was
doing those conversions, etc. So he was calling
me. And meanwhile, I was working in the startup
tech. And he was like, hey, that's interesting.
Can you help me get in? And I was like, yeah.
And he was like, yeah, imam. And I was like,
well, you're an imam as well. And we got into
good conversations. But the vibes were really
chill. He invited me over to his mosques. And
then he saw that I'm really also intellectual.
I'm really engaging. I try to get into university,
which is a big thing, going to America. Yeah,
of course. For us Germans, it's a big, big thing.
he invited me to his Usul of Fiqh classes so
there I learned that it's much more than just
like taking the Hadith or doing whatever you
want to do and he helped me a lot also to get
this like it's like you call it radicalization
like people associate with like ISIS and like
Taliban and Hamas but it is a much more internalized
extremism applied on yourself so it's much more
and when I do this I will go to hell when I do
this this is bad I can't touch a woman I can
look at woman i can't like breathe next to a
woman you know like you're getting like ocd like
wipes and you you try to emancipate you but you
think that a former and during the process like
trying emancipating you it's like you're doing
something wrong like blasphemy or whatever uh
but alhamdulillah he helped me really out of
this he taught me like a better path and since
then he gives me better books and teachings etc
and then it was my first year so like since now
like two years has passed already i'm This is
the route I got off. What about you? What got
you interested in the course and exploring this
type of engagement? I had met a friend, the first
Muslim that I had really become good friends
with. I never really knew very much about Islam.
As you said, religion from social media. That's
all I really saw. And I realized that I just
didn't know about religion. I've traveled so
much. I know cultures, I know foods, but I didn't
know the people's beliefs. So I figured that
was a really big hole in my knowledge. And yeah,
so I just, I signed up for the Middle East and
Muslim World Certificate as part of that. And
then I saw this class being offered actually
through the Honors College. They sent out an
email about the fellowship. I was like, that's
awesome. I'm going to do that. Wonderful. And
I was kind of concerned because I'm Christian
and I saw it was a Jewish and Muslim dialogue.
So I was like, maybe I'm just going to be sitting
in the corner, like quietly listening. But you
encouraged me to speak as well and sort of like
share my perspective. And I really enjoyed the
conversations we had. I learned a lot. So tell
us some of the stuff that you learned. What kind
of struck out most to you in terms of like what
you gained from it? being in the in the conversations
yeah how much me how much we agreed on things
okay like i was kind of i thought it was going
to be a little bit more like head heads butting
yeah um but we agreed on all the fundamental
things like we both did every all three of us
all of our religions deserve to be peacefully
coexist um we all wanted to find you know commonalities
among us and really Just have peaceful discussions.
And that's what everybody was there for. Nobody
was there for a fight. Nobody was there to prove
that their religion was the right one. Their
religion was superior. None of that, which I
wasn't really expecting. It was sort of the back
of my mind. I tried to go in there with as much
of an open mind as possible, but I was really,
really happy about it. From your perspective,
what do you think that other students could...
could learn um about a course like this or what
do you think that we could incorporate into like
other courses where students would what type
of skills do you think that you could gain from
a course like this um learning the importance
of peaceful discussions okay and it's not maybe
it's not just to to reach a conclusion or or
have everybody agree on one thing but it's just
for the sake of discussion just to have it i
think it's really important i think it's something
that's so lost on society now That we view just
somebody discussing things as you're compromising
your values or what you believe in. In fact,
it's the opposite. You're affirming what you
believe in and you're sharing it, which I think
everyone should do. Yeah, absolutely. What about
you? What is something that you've learned or
what have you gained from that, from the experience?
I learned much more about Judaism than I thought.
It was really interesting. Me too. As I said,
I studied a lot of Christianity already. And
my religion is basic. But Judaism, I had always
the question in my mind, okay, what's the difference
between Jews and Muslims? Which was really interesting
because I knew that the thing that sets Muslims
and Christians apart is especially the Trinity
and Jesus. But what is the thing that sets us
apart? I know from a Muslim standpoint, it's
the question of Muhammad. So is he not a prophet
or not? But for the Jews, it's like, what is
the problem? So this was really interesting to
see. What I also learned is that the internal
structure of Judaism is very similar to Islam.
We have the different school of laws. We have
mysticism, a mystical version of Islam. We have
the Tariqat. They have the similar things. They
consider them orthodox. We have secular Muslims,
like Turkish Muslims. They're like, we are Muslim.
We don't have anything to do with it. And then
you have secular Jews. It's basically the same.
And I was like... crazy they were talking about
what what we what do you need to do in order
to get to paradise and he was talking about the
uh the north laws and i'm like it's the same
thing we have the same same requirements same
conditions i was like what's the difference what
says you apart from me what is making you better
than me so this was very interesting to learn
on the other hand something that i would say
about your point is that the thing is that when
we are like in this very agitated society and
when we're not really engaging in conversations
and discussion with the opposite what happens
is that i'm installing a picture of this person
in my mind and like this is what i believe that
is the true case so why i'm thinking this way
about jews am i like forcing myself to believe
in this and then i'm applying this concept on
every other person and i'm expecting everybody
being like that and then you sit with them actually
and you see they're just some human being like
you they have the same problems they have the
same questions they also have exams they also
have money problems maybe whatever like they
have problems with their girlfriends it's like
you see the problems all the same the solutions
may be different they go read the bible or read
the torah whatever right and i met yesterday
it was really funny i met a turkish jew okay
which is for me it's like this is what i mean
it's like i just know turkish people being muslims
so when i met them the turkish jew and he was
starting talking speaking turkish i was like
this this is weird so this was really interesting
and i'm like the concepts that you have of a
jew they were not applying you know this is like
so i was i was not getting those vibes i was
like You know, it's difficult. So those are the
kind of moments in my life when I'm like... It's
like indoctrination. You are out to believe in
a specific way, but it's not true. When you meet
those people, you definitely realize that this
is not what it is. Actually, it doesn't make
any sense. It's just a point of ideology, maybe
imagination, a picture that you have created
in your mind about those people. Very often,
frequently, about hate. Right. But... I don't
know from where it comes from. We had also yesterday
our final discussion, right? Yes. With John.
Yeah. And I also talked with him about it. I
was like, why do you have people always this
hostility towards everybody else? It's like,
I heard it's like an evolutionary thing that
we instantaneously when there's something new,
we react with fear or with like, you know, with
like concerns and very like doubt. But I'm like,
why is this always leading us to hate the other
person? Because when I go in a room and I see
people, it doesn't matter from where. doesn't
matter which religion or sexuality or even background
i'm not looking at a person like okay you're
falling into this category i hate you know you're
falling in this country i love you now this is
not the way how it should be and how it acts
i sit in a room that could be republican there
could be a democrat i mean try to see the human
being behind him right and i think this is also
something my mom always tried to teach me see
the human being other than the religion because
you can have in your own religion he said It
doesn't matter if she's a Muslim or a Christian
or a Jew, wherever you will go, you will find
some people that will lie, they will cheat, they
will deceive, they will do bad things to you,
they will murder, whatever. She said, don't take,
just because he's a non -Muslim, don't take him
as your family or don't take him as, no, he's
no better, better him being than him. She said
that anybody could be better. It doesn't matter
which religion you follow. So I really go by
this idea. I always say we all bleed red. Yeah,
that's right. Good summary. We talked a bit about
also the Israel -Palestine conflict as well.
That was like, I think that came up quite a bit
at that time as well. What is your understanding
of the conflict and like kind of what's happening
through the dialogue? Did you get new perspectives
in terms of what's happening? Yeah. Oh, both
sides are definitely. Okay. Definitely. Because
I just hear from the Muslim bubble, right? So
I hear the Israeli government is doing this and
the Israeli government is doing that. hmm and
now you hear them talking about what happened
to them and they're like realizing that one second
they're both sides to the same scenario right
yeah and i think the most shocking story that
i heard like what happened or like in fiction
is like when the hamas was on 7th october going
to this concert right and then like killing 1
300 people and like shooting them to their genitals
and recording everything posting and then submitting
on in the internet and i'm like what you're expecting
and right as your government to react on this
one there's no this will won't be chill anymore
there are like lines to be recrossed and if it
would be just an attack on military institutions
whatever it's still not legiminating what happened
it's still bad but it would be still different
than rather than just attacking random civilians
on the street so i think it helped me to see
that there are both sides to the picture and
that it is not really black and white that there
are more things included in this whole situation
and it helped me also much more to judge it objectively
rather than being, as I said, a Muslim. It's
on one side. Exactly. It's not one side anymore.
I can see both sides. I still see both sides
false. This would be a big fall on the Palestinian
side. I could also name plenty on the other side.
So I always believed in that when it comes to
an argument and discussion, when there's a fight,
both did something wrong. So I never really believed
that even in a war, it could be the truth. I
see it here, I realize it in that moment as well.
So it's the same thing. It helped me a lot. What
about you in terms of understanding the conflict?
Did it give you different perspectives or different
understanding? Yeah, so as an IR major, I'm used
to my classes being very factual. This is the
law, this is the history, this is the circumstances.
We're not going to give you our opinion, but
these are all the facts. And then you have students
that are just emotionally charged about it, and
we'll try to debate those facts. It's all about
facts. What I liked in the discussion was about
how does this make you feel as an Aslan, or as
a Jew? How did this affect you? Did you have
family? How has this changed how you feel your
life in America, especially in Miami, as diverse
as it is? How has your life changed because of
this? Even down, like, we talked even how this
affected domestic politics, how this affected
Hillel, the protests on campus. I like that we
brought such an international issue and made
it about FIU. Right. And, like, about the people
in the room. I like it as well. John asks those
questions always, like, how does it make you
feel, though, right here on campus? It's really
interesting to learn. Which makes it more of
a discussion than an argument. Exactly. Which
I really liked. Like, we were able to... To bond
over the fact that it affected everybody. Right.
Not just like, I'm right, you're wrong. It was
like, we both kind of suffered because of this.
Right, right. Yeah, I was very, I mean, I was
very shocked. I mean, I think one of the good
things about having John as kind of a partner
in the build up is leading it. I mean, I'm coming
from more from the teaching side and he's coming
from the campus, you know, sort of lived experience
and kind of the stories that he was telling in
terms of like what students are coming to tell
him. And kind of how people feel like, you know.
I think the saddest part about it all is how
here in the United States, people didn't feel
safe. And I think that has been something that
has been a big change. Because when I was going
to university, 9 -11 happened. And I was at...
You know, there's a big number. It's kind of
a Jewish university. There are a lot of Jewish
people at the university. And they really made
sure that we, as Muslim students, felt safe.
And they made sure that, like, you know, they
put extra security around where we were staying
after 9 -11 because there was a lot of hatred
against Muslims after September 11th. I mean,
just, it was everywhere, all over the place.
And, you know, there was a... There were people
being, you know, targeted and there was a couple
of people got killed because they were Muslim.
Mosques were being shot at. I mean, it was a
kind of a very scary moment. So it was very,
very sad to hear that the Jewish students were
feeling the same way and that they were being
harassed and they were being attacked because
I felt like after September 11th, at least the
Jewish community kind of really protected Muslim
students. And it was very sad that... in a situation
like that, you know, I would have liked ideally
that Muslim faculty and students would have been
able to defend their Jewish sort of, you know,
sort of compatriots, right? And it was actually
the opposite where Muslim students were harassing
Jewish students and making them feel unsafe.
So I think that's been very, very hard to see,
I think, yeah. Yeah. And kind of like going off
of that, one of the students from the dialogue
class was saying, um that he's born in this country
he's um a jew and he said that that after october
7th people stopped seeing him as an american
yeah and only as a jew like like i was born here
too i'm just so disappointed it's it's very very
sad it's very sad and also sides of the aisle
like treating reducing somebody down to a conflict
on the other side of the world. Instead of like,
you're a human. Even more than that, you're my
fellow American. It's interesting because, how
can I say it? I come from Germany, so the way
how I see things is always very different than
how Americans see it. So for us, we didn't have
really Billy culture on campus. We didn't really
have... things where we didn't feel unsafe when
it comes to the gun problem right those were
not things for us so i could say my opinion and
i was feeling safe because i knew that the worst
thing that's going to happen is someone's going
to stand up and going to punish me for it but
there will be people my friends myself they can
defend me right so but here it's a bit different
because The security measurements sometimes are
not really, how can I say, sophisticated. So
you don't know if the opposite is correct. Can
you say whatever you want to say currently at
the moment? Are you going to do something that
is going to make this person so upset that they're
going to take those kind of measurements because
they are, I don't know, mentally disturbed. So
those are the things that I see. On the other
hand, it's like... Being in Germany, we are very
far away of a lot of things that are happening.
Like for instance, Israel -Palestinian conflict,
we're closer to it, but still it's a thing for
us, but it's still far away. So how we see those
things is like... We just know them from stories.
We talk about Nazi, we talk about Hitler, we
talk about all the things that happened like
the Shoah. And we're talking about this very
often, but it becomes much more like a story
rather than reality. And hate against people,
this is not something that you really see. You
see, of course, on the street, someone who's
just pissed and is like talking to you in a very
derogatory way. But really, racism is not something
you perceive. so when i came here it changed
so for the first time i see this hatred that
everybody's talking about in real life because
i was on campus i also told this in the dialogues
right and then like those uh students came to
me and they were like making anti -semitic jokes
and like not even like in a in a way how you
would do it under people without every anybody
noticing it and nobody would say anything about
like no like publicly screaming and like screaming
nazi powerful and they asked me where i'm from
i said i'm jerry so they were in a direct into
this nazi bubble And those are things that are
scary things how they see this hatred being normal
and being, what can I say? Yeah, normal. So the
hatred things was scary. Yeah. I think for the
students that are watching, what is it like something
that you would like to tell other students who
are kind of interested in? um sort of peace building
and sort of uh interfaith dialogue um asking
questions is the point okay it's like if you
have a question you have a stereotype in your
head get it out ask it maybe do some research
before okay um but that this is a place to sort
of get over that and realize that that's just
it's like brain rot it's just brain rot that
you see online um none of it's true And you can
only really get over that once you meet face
to face with that person. You realize like, wow,
that was totally off base. This person and I
are actually really similar. You sort of get
over that. I think it's really important to have
these kinds of discussions everywhere in religion,
politics, like we need to start seeing each other
as humans instead of like you mentioned their
box, their label. Yeah, I mean, I think that's
part of the reason why we decided to do it this
way. And then also have, you know, have some
food as well, which I think is always helpful.
And then just sit. The reps off. We can all bond
over falafels. Exactly. Oh, the chickens are
really good, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think, I mean,
just having it in person, I think is a whole
different quality than doing it on Zoom or something
like that. Absolutely. Definitely. yeah yeah
what i would say i think it's a bit difficult
i know students they have not really a lot of
time engaging in those kind of discussions and
debates are much more like i like doing it as
a matter of course exactly i invest my time in
it and it will be definitely busy the only thing
i can give to people is especially students is
that currently they we all become adults right
we're children teenagers you know we're going
from this new step exactly known to new world
let's call it and the problem is that there are
things that i can do as a child that things that
i can do in mid school in high school saying
things maybe like you know having those kind
of parts which is fine because you're still learning
right my history professor dr john said you have
you're developing until you're 37 you take those
years do your mistakes and do your errors but
on the other hand like you should also start
thinking like an animal acting like an animal
and going onto campus and insulting people and
screaming kill israel or whatever or i'm going
on campus very very often i hear often christians
talking very dictatorial about muslims and doing
very islamophobic statements and those kind of
stuff and i'm like why would you do this because
you might disagree to his ideologies religion
is whatever he believes in this doesn't empower
you though to sit there and make joke like derogatory
jokes in terms of like insulting being racist
you know and for me it's feeling um how can i
say that i don't feel secure or safe right i
went to the charlie kirk uh gallery right uh
so charlie kirk was murdered i think it was in
september the 13th the 12th on the same or the
next day they did like an uh exactly you really
oh my god it was so scary so anyways so i went
there like a friend of mine well i was really
into like republican things which is pretty good
okay but uh he asked me if i want to join and
i was like i'm not really into this i'm you know
he was not really supporting muslims in general
but i was like at the end still as a human still
i want to set a statement that this was wrong
that you don't murder people that this is not
the solution so i said let's go join the praying
session the ceremony right and sit there and
make a statement and i was sitting there and
they were all being very emotional which was
very interesting on the one hand but they started
to talk about how this is not a spiritual war
of christianity against islam and i'm like this
kind of rhetoric i don't like it it's like getting
very aggressive and agitating and i'm sitting
there as a muslim and i feel very uncomfortable
especially because two of my friends are Not
like me having the privilege of looking very
German. Coming from Arabia or from Pakistan.
And you can see that they're Muslim. They have
their looks coming on you. And we got in. And
this is the thing that I as a man and a German
have done in my mind. They didn't do testing
at all. They didn't look if we checked. If we
have guns on us or whatever. So we were sitting
there. All those people being very emotional.
People when they're extremely emotional, they
don't know what they're doing. So I was really
uncomfortable. Next moment I heard that, I left.
So those are the kind of moments that I... really
shaping me here on campus they make me feel unsafe
as well so i see that there's like an what can
i say it and thing of ideology is getting currently
strong like it's university of course you're
going to be like one day you're communist one
day you i don't know democrat you will you need
to find yourself but it's currently weaponized
against other people and i see how a lot of people
feel unsafe on campus not only jews muslims christians
etc yeah in the next iteration of the dialogue
group class, what do you think, what are some
things that you think that we can improve upon
or what do you think we should do differently
that might make it more effective? It's a good
question. I think I like the food part a lot.
I like the timing. A lot of people are like,
it's evening. I like the timing. The morning
thing was even worse for me because I need to
skip a class. So I think keeping it in the evening
is good. It's not about, I think, the way how
it was conducted. Maybe the way how we're recruiting
more people. Yeah. I think we need more people.
What do you think we could do to recruit more
people? It's a very difficult thing. On the one
hand, we need to convince people to invest time.
Invest time, yeah. On the other hand, make it
interesting, right? On the third thing is people
are discussing and debating and arguing a lot.
And they're like, what should I not take my free
time arguing for? free food but let's go to starbucks
or yeah so it's going to be a difficult thing
i think what i wish more of getting more muslims
inside yeah this would be more um yeah that what
can i say because initially the first meeting
there was quite a number of muslims and then
like basically they're all oh but they were my
friends okay so i forced them before so i was
like actually committed between james right but
besides those two jamies and me there was no
other muslim john again of course you yeah and
mohammed but i think we need much more also stronger
presence of the ones who are representing each
group right so we had for instance a session
only one june then three Muslims. Exactly. Like
one session, one Muslim and six or seven Jews.
Exactly. It's not really helping to pair up.
Exactly. So it's a difficult thing. I would suggest
reaching out to all those kind of student buddies,
right? Like the clubs. Yeah. But I know, I'm
coming from those clubs, so I know how they think
about those kind of events. So it's going to
be difficult. Yeah. What I can maybe suggest
is still finding any personal contact in those
kind of groups and trying to convince. There
will be definitely people. On the other hand,
as you also discussed yesterday, maybe also making
outreach outside of all universities. Exactly,
that's right. Trying to recruit people from different
campuses, different universities and maybe writing
them over. Maybe also having guest speakers over.
People like seeing interesting and famous people.
I actually think the guest speakers might take
away from at least for me like what the club
was or what the the meetings were most well one
of the things we're going to try to do next semester
is do a movie as well um yeah do like a screening
of like a palestinian age really movie um and
so that you can kind of um you know do something
a little bit different as well and actually have
the producer come and talk to the students and
stuff like that yeah maybe you can also talk
more about maybe faculty right yeah asking them
if they can get this faculty members but I mean
also that they can help getting it out to students
we had this one history event about the winter
crew on the first world war and they reached
out to our professor we invite your whole class
to come and join and we filled the whole room
so I think reaching out to faculty and asking
them if they have like if they are interested
there will be definitely people that will see
it as a way to force much more harmony between
everybody. I agree with what he said, that there
should be more Muslim representation. I love
the fact that we agreed on a lot of things, which
is great, but I think what would make the discussion
even better is to have people that... That we
just disagree with. Right. Like. Yes. On everything.
That would make. That would just drive the point.
Yeah. Not because I'm arguing. The point. The
point is not to argue. The point is to. Is to
realize that you're more than what you disagree
on. Right. And seeing also the perspective of
different Muslims as well. Yeah. We have this
big, big, big. diverse opinions within Islam
itself, right? The opinion of Hanafi is going
to be different from Shia, right? So we want
to have much more people within those kind of
conversations from the Muslim group, also trying
to get much more diversity. For the Jews, for
instance, we had a secular Jew, we had an Orthodox
Jew, a conservative Jew, Israeli person, etc.
So it gave much more different perspectives because
all of them had different perspectives on the
same issue, even being in the same group. So
for the Muslims, it would be also interesting
to see if we can get, for instance, Mahmoud Mahabi
inside, or other people. who might also offer
their kind of discussions. I was feeling the
whole time in those kind of debates, we were
like trying to be politically correct and like
not saying things. I noticed everybody was kind
of like on their best behavior. Exactly. In Germany,
you say Sunday face, you know, like Sunday, your
best behavior you can demonstrate. Do you think
it got more real towards the end? Yeah. It got,
definitely. I think everybody said at the end
of the last class, not the one on Wednesday,
but the last one I was on in the evening, was
that we needed people. more people that disagree
yeah exactly it's like we can we can have the
we're all agreed yeah we all agreed like like
we just we just get along too well we all became
friends like i was in a session i would just
go with everybody to halal and we would just
joke around i mean that's the thing i really
am so happy about that i feel like you guys have
developed friendship together you know and that's
a really powerful and important thing it's gonna
For me, I think the friendships that I had when
I was in high school and college really had a
huge impact in terms of me later in life as well.
So it's wonderful that you're developing these
networks, and I hope you're able to keep in touch
with each other as well. And my whole exploration
of religion just stemmed from a friendship. I
realized how little I know about religions, even
my own. He was asking me questions about my own,
and I was like, I never explored my religion
from that standpoint. I have no idea how to answer
that. It's true. For me, it was the same thing.
It was like our friends, my friend group, we
started to become more religious. And then it
was a thing that was first upon you, but you
were not feeling it. Everybody was just more
engaging with it. So you started also engaging.
And you don't learn anything from an echo chamber.
Right, exactly. Or from social media. Or from
social media. Oh, no, definitely. You know, the
best thing, how we can secure world peace is
delete social media. I think... There would be
no depression anymore, no hate anymore, no agitation.
Everybody would live in peace. I was just telling
him I needed to delete TikTok. Yes, I never installed
it. I knew it was going to be the biggest mistake.
You can perceive it even in discussions. I was
talking with Christians and I took my time to
study Christianity. So they're expecting with
me when we have a discussion on things, like
those kind of TikTok arguments of Muslims. I'm
not following those arguments because I'm not
watching them. I'm studying from a different
perspective, but I sometimes see it on Instagram
and YouTube. You see it. I'm also using it. I'm
not reliving behind a rug. So I see how Christians
are arguing, and then I see Christians coming
to me in real life arguing the same way. I'm
like, you never deal with it. You just watch
it on social media. Anybody talked about it,
and I'm like, you know, even when religion is
something personal, it's not something, how can
I say, commercial, right? There are still also,
for instance, in Islam, those kind of institutional
things, ranking things. And we see it as you
wouldn't go to an engineer to have a question
which is particularly to a doctor. I would not
ask him about which medicine I should take. I
would ask him, can you help me repair my car?
He's like a mechanic. So you would go to someone
who knows the studies and a specialist and ask
him questions about your religion because you
want to make sure that he knows what he's talking
about. Because religion at the end is something
that we take very lightly. And we fall into it
very blindly. And I think that's why it's so
dangerous because they can sell you anything.
That's how cold start. Exactly. And you take
whatever they say as granted because you take
it a person, you're like, yeah, this person looks
really like, you know, authentic. When they talk,
they're talking about the right thing. So you
take whatever they say and you... this is the
way you fall into Wahhabism as well you take
whatever they're saying it's just a random guy
who also got it from a random guy who got it
from a random guy and you're like who got it
from TikTok who got it from TikTok or talking
to cops or whatever and they're saying that this
is Islam this is Christianity and you're like
it's not really so yeah this is the thing so
i'm getting time to study and learn yeah exactly
take the time to study and learn uh get much
more learning how to be respectful understand
that those are not easy things because i think
religion is a very personal matter as i said
but it's something i do embrace right I'm bracing
it with everything I have and it's becoming my
personality. It's becoming my everything, my
life, my ideology, my heart. So when you attack
it, it's like an attack against me, against,
you know, so it installs in me like emotions.
It's going to create emotions in me and you don't
want that there will be negative, right? I don't
want to hurt you. So I will sit there and I'm
going to try in the most respectful way as possible,
saying things the way I view them, not trying
to put them into, like not reducing them to absurdity
or trying to. make it insultive like of course
from a from a muslim standpoint maybe the trinity
concept might be that you don't understand that
this is wrong right would be like why you don't
understand it you make jokes about it the same
wise person they would be like how can you don't
understand it so you weren't making jokes about
it the thing is If I would know you really well,
like my best friend, I think we can do those
kind of jokes because I know that your intention
behind doing those kind of jokes is pure and
you just do it because we're friends. This is
what friends nowadays do, insulting each other.
But when it's like a random stranger on the street,
pay attention to how you talk because people
don't know your intention behind it, right? So
those kind of things. It's already a very agitated
moment, I think, in our society. And I think
we don't need much more. idiots talking on the
streets very loud and derogatory about people
and harming and insulting and cursing yeah and
you can kind of like get over that by practicing
yeah like becoming more respectful through practice
um like you you really can't do it any other
way this is the only way to to become a respectful
debater not even debating just sharing right
I wrote a paper on cancer culture. This is the
other argument that I would have to the same
thing. All the other people need to understand
how to grow thicker skin. There will be people
saying things and you should not always take
it too personal. But like, for instance, there
was this hate, Christian hate preacher. And nobody
told me that this is something you should not
engage with. I was like, oh, this is interesting.
A hate preacher? Yeah, the one who was in front
of GC and screaming, you go to hell. They're
like, are you going to hell? they'll go to me
they're like you're going down I was like oh
okay it was really interesting conversation and
I reparted the video they recorded because I
didn't know they were recording us they were
doing like yes they were recording it I didn't
like it I didn't know that and he was starting
to insult the prophet and those kind of moments
it's like I am not reacting very emotionally
in those kind of moments because it happened
very often so I'm like okay this is not really
an argument against me anymore I'm like do it
but what is the purpose of you doing it yeah
because the discussion he was i was he was talking
about very funny maybe also for you we found
the bones of jesus so this is proving he's god
and i was trying just to be rational and i was
like i could find anybody's bones this is not
going to you know that's not even possible though
yes the whole point is thanks so we were i was
like so I was talking to him I tried I was trying
to talk in the most respectful way I could and
he as I said people don't see immediately Muslims
so I was talking to him and then the hijabi would
come and he was like I am Muslim and I was like
yeah and then he was like punchline after punchline
and I'm like there you go I was holding your
prophet everything which is holy to you and I'm
like he was trying to state that i was trying
the same way and i'm like no i'm just trying
to critically tell you that what you're saying
is from a christian standpoint stupid and from
my standpoint you know so it's not even what
you're saying you can believe in it but why are
you screaming everybody why are you spreading
so much hate i was saying in the video and i
was like this doesn't make sense because when
you're really believing in this this is your
belief believe in it right i would also not sit
down with someone who's believing their earth
is flat and i would try to scream at him i'm
like leave that the earth is flat i'm not going
to put you into a bite like geography class in
physics you should not teach children but this
is something you can believe it i think this
is totally up to you i don't like that definitely
i don't like it after that i just he destroyed
my mood the whole day because i was like no i
would that would be me too i mean there's a little
verse that talks about how you should share your
belief it's like know in your heart what you
believe and why you believe it and share it with
gentleness it should never be like you're wrong
this is why you're wrong like you're so stupid
you're an idiot like that exactly yeah first
of all nobody should be saying that the bones
thing is kind of funny though i've never the
bone thing i've never heard of that before we
don't even need to argue from like a religious
paper right going into a religion and then arguing
from there we can also just go into like theism
what is the point of we not knowing what is not
the right thing or not right so even when i'm
a muslim and you're a christian or he's a jew
you still not know for sure that this is the
right thing there's still this thing of i'm believing
it that it's true so i make it myself at the
end it's still remaining subjective i would claim
it's objective right to believe in god is objective
for me but personally individually it remains
subjective so why are you coming to me and trying
to And first of all, calling everybody stupid.
Because at the end, my background is different.
I raise up differently. I have maybe different
access to information, et cetera. So what I believe
may be different to you, even when we're in the
same religion. I could be a Muslim. You could
be a Muslim. You could still have the different
belief than me. You could still disagree on points
because still your background is going to have
a huge, huge impact on whatever you believe in
the moment. Exactly. Well, I wanted to thank
you both for sticking with me through the entire
process. It's quite a ride, I think, in terms
of every session was quite an experience, I think,
when you're done. It's still going to end, though,
right? No, we're definitely going to keep going.
But I really appreciate it. I'm very thankful
to have you guys as students and to be able to
join me on this journey. So thank you. Thank
you.