WEBVTT 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:09.519 Hello, my name is Iqbal Akhter, and I wanted 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:15.199 to welcome you all to our dialogue, our work 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:18.480 on sort of interfaith relations and the future 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:24.620 of covenantal pluralism, I suppose, here in the 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:26.539 United States and around the world. So we're 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:30.359 very honored to have our first guest of this 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:37.090 series, who is Professor coming to us. He has 00:00:37.090 --> 00:00:38.890 multiple hats, but he's also the Director of 00:00:38.890 --> 00:00:43.409 the Interfaith Studies Program here in Miami, 00:00:43.609 --> 00:00:46.350 and I'll let him introduce himself. Hi, everyone, 00:00:46.409 --> 00:00:48.789 and thank you so much, Professor Iqbal, for having 00:00:48.789 --> 00:00:51.630 us here. My name is Mohamed Homo -Invesh, and 00:00:51.630 --> 00:00:54.770 I'm the Director of the Jaffar Institute for 00:00:54.770 --> 00:00:57.350 Interfaith Dialogue and Education at Miami Dade 00:00:57.350 --> 00:00:59.329 College. I'm also Professor of International 00:00:59.329 --> 00:01:02.549 Relations here at FIU, as well as the University 00:01:02.549 --> 00:01:05.680 of Miami. Again, glad and honored to be here. 00:01:06.260 --> 00:01:10.340 Wonderful. Thank you so much. So as we start, 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:13.959 can you talk to us a little bit about your background? 00:01:14.819 --> 00:01:17.340 You know, sort of where you grew up and your 00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:19.780 academic sort of background as well. Sure. Yeah, 00:01:19.819 --> 00:01:21.879 I was born in Iran in northwestern part in the 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.420 city of Tabriz. So I speak Turkish, Azeri Turkish 00:01:25.420 --> 00:01:28.719 as my first language. Then I went to university 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:31.180 in the city of Tehran. I did my bachelor's degree 00:01:31.180 --> 00:01:35.480 in linguistics. And in the late 2000s, I came 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.459 to the United States to pursue my master's and 00:01:38.459 --> 00:01:41.680 PhD studies in international relations here at 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:46.739 FIU, upon which I went to Columbia University. 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.500 I did a program there, then went to South Africa, 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.620 did a postdoc there, came back to Louisiana State 00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:57.659 University, taught there for two years. And since 00:01:57.659 --> 00:02:02.980 2020, We established the Jaffer Institute for 00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:05.939 Interfaith Dialogue at Miami Dade College, and 00:02:05.939 --> 00:02:10.479 I've been doing that work ever since. Okay, that's 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:16.860 wonderful. What made you get interested in interfaith 00:02:16.860 --> 00:02:18.759 dialogue? Was there an event in your life or 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:22.139 a perspective or a series of events that motivated 00:02:22.139 --> 00:02:24.960 you to pursue this line of research and work? 00:02:25.259 --> 00:02:29.409 Yeah, so I started my sort of graduate intellectual 00:02:29.409 --> 00:02:32.370 work in hardcore international relations. I was 00:02:32.370 --> 00:02:35.430 focused on security studies. I did my dissertation 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:40.210 on proliferation and so this was very sort of 00:02:40.210 --> 00:02:44.569 realist type mainstream security studies. And 00:02:44.569 --> 00:02:48.310 then, you know, I just realized that the canvas 00:02:48.310 --> 00:02:50.889 of international relations needed to be broadened 00:02:50.889 --> 00:02:55.550 out and we could include few more items in the 00:02:55.550 --> 00:02:58.050 mix because identity politics was also on the 00:02:58.050 --> 00:03:01.169 rise. It looked like there was a transnational 00:03:01.169 --> 00:03:06.530 movement towards more identitarian sort of international 00:03:06.530 --> 00:03:10.729 relations and Islam had made a comeback into 00:03:10.729 --> 00:03:14.389 international relations. So I figured in order 00:03:14.389 --> 00:03:18.500 to have a more holistic view on the globe we 00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:22.400 needed to include religion not just as a theological 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.680 issue but more as a civilizational issue in the 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.479 way we study international relations and so I 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:32.960 sort of branched out and removed that you know 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:36.659 hardcore security studies shrink wrap and just 00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:40.439 allowed myself to be exposed to new type of ecosystems. 00:03:40.699 --> 00:03:44.360 I got involved with the Muslim community here 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:47.639 in Miami and that was instrumental in sort of 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.500 pushing me forward in that direction. And then 00:03:51.500 --> 00:03:54.439 that work got more institutionalized after the 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.020 Jaffer Center here at FIU was established with 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.759 which I was initially affiliated and then that 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:05.300 work here at FIU and Professor Mizbahi's work. 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:11.159 sort of led the way to establishing the Jaffer 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:16.259 Institute at Miami Dade College. The Miami Dade 00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:19.680 College was very embracing of the idea and I 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.839 think we've done tremendous work over the past 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:27.079 four or five years that we've been around to 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:32.639 bring a little bit of this wide world. to our 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:34.720 students at Miami Dade College who might not 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.720 have exposure to that type of experience if they 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:45.439 were to pursue their academic studies. So what 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:49.420 impact do you ultimately hope that your program 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:56.379 has? Well, we want to hopefully engender a sense 00:04:56.379 --> 00:05:01.860 of intercultural curiosity. and maybe literacy 00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:07.600 into our students to show them that this is a 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:12.800 big world and there's a lot of things that are 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.279 going on in the world that unless you actively 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:18.600 seek them, you might not get exposure to. And 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:21.040 from a purely functional perspective, I always 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.709 tell our students at MDC, that this is an essential 00:05:25.709 --> 00:05:29.589 skill. This is not a soft skill anymore. This 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:32.329 is something that will equip you to become marketable 00:05:32.329 --> 00:05:37.009 in a global workplace. So although it looks good 00:05:37.009 --> 00:05:40.029 on your resume cosmetically, but beyond that, 00:05:40.170 --> 00:05:42.209 if you want to be successful in your professional 00:05:42.209 --> 00:05:46.310 careers, you need to have some sense of agricultural 00:05:46.310 --> 00:05:50.050 interfaith, curiosity, and literacy. So when 00:05:50.050 --> 00:05:53.290 we're exposed to a globalized work... place, 00:05:53.350 --> 00:05:57.990 you can sort of masterfully navigate that terrain 00:05:57.990 --> 00:06:00.730 and interact with people that will most likely 00:06:00.730 --> 00:06:04.050 come from different religious, ethnic, linguistic, 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:08.829 national backgrounds. I think it teaches a lot 00:06:08.829 --> 00:06:10.649 of different types of skills as well. I mean, 00:06:10.689 --> 00:06:14.810 it teaches communication skills. It teaches social 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:18.610 and emotional, cultural awareness, being able 00:06:18.610 --> 00:06:23.670 to translate. across cultures and just being 00:06:23.670 --> 00:06:29.769 more socially conversant with different perspectives. 00:06:30.029 --> 00:06:33.069 And I think that that has a lot of different... 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.420 you know, effects in terms of people's careers. 00:06:36.699 --> 00:06:39.120 Yeah, because oftentimes, you know, people get 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:41.279 sort of trapped in their little comfort zone 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.819 and they cocoon themselves. And that, I mean, 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:47.040 I think doing that, they deprive themselves of 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.779 a lot of opportunities to grow, you know, intellectually, 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.079 to grow character -wise and also professionally, 00:06:55.379 --> 00:06:59.120 like I said. So, you know, at Miami Dade College, 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:01.560 we're part of SESI. Change -making education 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.800 and social innovation has three pillars at MDC, 00:07:04.980 --> 00:07:08.420 one of which is the Jaffa Institute, the work 00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:10.660 that we do, but we also have the Earth Ethics 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.620 Institute and Institute for Civic Engagement 00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:17.819 and Democracy. Holistically, we're trying to 00:07:17.819 --> 00:07:23.699 bring that non -curricular dimension to our students. 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:28.500 Like I said, I think... This is the type of work 00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:32.860 that at least our demographics at MDC might not 00:07:32.860 --> 00:07:38.560 organically get exposure to. So speaking of that, 00:07:38.740 --> 00:07:41.660 I mean, I think there's some challenges that 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:44.240 there's a lot of miscommunication, I think, among 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.980 people of different sort of faith traditions 00:07:46.980 --> 00:07:53.759 and cultures. When you see what are the major 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:57.189 challenges the students have in terms of I guess 00:07:57.189 --> 00:07:59.790 engaging with the interfaith work that you guys 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:05.509 do? I think some of the challenges include the 00:08:05.509 --> 00:08:09.170 media ecosystem that we have in this country 00:08:09.170 --> 00:08:12.589 because our work is largely focused on the Abrahamic 00:08:12.589 --> 00:08:16.050 tradition with even more emphasis put on Islam 00:08:16.050 --> 00:08:23.459 as a more underrepresented perspective. I think, 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:25.740 you know, we sometimes think that in this country 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:30.180 we live in a sort of rich media ecosystem. But 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:32.659 when it comes to choice, when it comes to the 00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:36.919 mainstream media, you know, Islam's image is 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:39.639 still in the West in general, maybe in the United 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.659 States even more so, is crisis driven. So a lot 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:46.559 of students don't get access to a more organic... 00:08:47.149 --> 00:08:51.149 narrative or understanding of Islam. So we're 00:08:51.149 --> 00:08:58.570 trying to move beyond those cliches and introduce 00:08:58.570 --> 00:09:02.090 the Abrahamic tradition of which Islam is an 00:09:02.090 --> 00:09:06.620 important part as a civilizational entity. So 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:09.720 that's why most of the work that we do doesn't 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.759 deal with theological stuff per se. We're trying 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:16.919 to build bridges, and as bridge builders, I try 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.240 to focus mostly on sort of cultural dimensions 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.039 and aspects of Islam, like Islamic philosophy, 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:30.100 Islamic art, Islamic fashion even. We've done 00:09:30.100 --> 00:09:35.879 an event on architecture. culinary traditions 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:40.340 in the Muslim world. And I think those are the 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:44.620 issue areas that have the most potential for 00:09:44.620 --> 00:09:49.779 bridge building and instilling a genuine sense 00:09:49.779 --> 00:09:57.320 of curiosity in our students. So when we look 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:02.200 at the world as a whole today, what are the major... 00:10:05.290 --> 00:10:09.950 clashes that you see between sort of faith traditions 00:10:09.950 --> 00:10:17.789 that more dialogue could perhaps help to promote 00:10:17.789 --> 00:10:21.340 peace. So what are the kind of the major What 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:23.860 are the directions in which interfaith dialogue 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:27.500 at a global level can go? I think oftentimes 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:30.759 what happens with interfaith dialogue is that 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:35.159 it sort of degenerates into a debate. Because 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:40.230 dialogue has certain prerequisites. that differentiates 00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:43.669 it from debate. So you need to be willing to 00:10:43.669 --> 00:10:47.610 be self -deprecating to a certain degree. You 00:10:47.610 --> 00:10:52.070 need to come to dialogue with an open mind and 00:10:52.070 --> 00:10:56.830 be willing to be wrong. And so a lot of times 00:10:56.830 --> 00:11:00.750 when we focus purely on theological stuff, people 00:11:00.750 --> 00:11:05.330 are just not willing to have that. openness of 00:11:05.330 --> 00:11:08.950 mind and maybe even heart that is a prerequisite 00:11:08.950 --> 00:11:11.590 for having an authentic genuine and productive 00:11:11.590 --> 00:11:19.629 dialogue. I think the fact that our global politics 00:11:19.629 --> 00:11:23.710 is saturated with identity issues doesn't help 00:11:23.710 --> 00:11:30.049 us either. So we have a highly polarized globe 00:11:30.049 --> 00:11:35.620 right now and that makes our work even more challenging. 00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:42.100 So tribalism, puritanical ideas, they're on the 00:11:42.100 --> 00:11:45.419 rise across the world, not just here in the United 00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:49.279 States, which makes our work challenging, but 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:55.019 also much more impactful and valuable. And I 00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:59.460 think the trick is to find champions for this 00:11:59.460 --> 00:12:03.059 work. And I think those types of people do exist 00:12:03.059 --> 00:12:06.440 in every society and community. I mean, here 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:10.000 in South Florida, we've been very fortunate to 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:15.419 liaison, to work with, you know, folks, religious 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:20.279 leaders and secular folks as well from different... 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.440 faith traditions and they've been contributing 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.600 a ton to our work. As you know, you've been part 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.059 of that ecosystem here in South Florida as well. 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:34.139 I think this could be a little incubator for 00:12:34.139 --> 00:12:37.820 us to further develop our ideas and become a 00:12:37.820 --> 00:12:42.080 role model for this type of community work and 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:46.080 bridge building in the community that could be 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.360 emulated elsewhere in the country. Absolutely. 00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:51.360 Do you think that there is something unique about 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:57.179 South Florida that has sort of helped to create 00:12:57.179 --> 00:13:00.480 this ecosystem? I think that has a lot to do 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:05.740 with the community, community leaders. It also 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:08.960 has to do with... with champions of this work. 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:13.279 I mentioned Dr. Mizbahi, Dr. Jaffer, and so forth. 00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:16.879 So these are people who have been quite instrumental 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:21.200 in, I think, laying the groundwork for people 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:27.100 like us to come on board and further expand and 00:13:27.100 --> 00:13:30.200 deepen that work. I mean, this type of work needs 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:35.440 those types of... initial sort of pushers and 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.899 creating momentum for it. And we've been very 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:41.960 fortunate that we have that kind of momentum, 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:47.600 both at the academic level from FIU, from Miami 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.639 Dade College, but also at the community level, 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:53.620 all the religious institutes that we work with, 00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:58.379 be it mosques, temples. and churches and so forth. 00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:01.480 And once you have that critical mass of people 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.200 who are dedicated to this work genuinely, then 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.759 I think it just gets much easier and over time 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.580 it sort of creates this positive feedback loop 00:14:12.580 --> 00:14:16.720 that I hope and I think we're in the process 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:21.519 of. You know, one of the things that it's easier 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.460 to do interfaith work in a place like... the 00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:26.139 United States, there's a lot of religious freedom, 00:14:26.299 --> 00:14:29.980 there's a lot of pluralism. When you're looking 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:32.659 at other places, and particularly in the Muslim 00:14:32.659 --> 00:14:35.779 world, in Iran, in Pakistan, other places where 00:14:35.779 --> 00:14:39.919 there are minorities, but religious freedom is 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.519 not something that is understood the way that 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:49.980 it is in the West. How do you build this sort 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:55.210 of work in those societies? Well, I think this 00:14:55.210 --> 00:15:00.570 work has to be contextualized based on the organic 00:15:00.570 --> 00:15:04.529 realities of every society, every country, maybe 00:15:04.529 --> 00:15:08.690 even every community. So I don't think we have 00:15:08.690 --> 00:15:11.730 a one -size -fits -all recipe for how to do this 00:15:11.730 --> 00:15:16.029 work. This work that we do that works quite wonderfully 00:15:16.029 --> 00:15:19.629 in South Florida might not be applicable to the 00:15:19.629 --> 00:15:24.090 United Kingdom, for example. I think one of the 00:15:24.090 --> 00:15:26.950 challenges Islamophobia and Islamophobia, which 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:30.110 is a major barrier to building these types of 00:15:30.110 --> 00:15:33.429 bridges, manifests itself differently in different 00:15:33.429 --> 00:15:37.710 societal ecosystems, but political realities 00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:41.190 and also geopolitics is as part of it. Now, artificial 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:44.029 intelligence, these large language models are 00:15:44.029 --> 00:15:50.179 also part of this ecosystem. So I'm a little 00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:53.500 bit hesitant to tell folks what to do, but I 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:57.940 think once we establish the baseline for how 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:01.740 to have an authentic dialogue and generate a 00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:06.019 genuine sense of interfaith and intercultural 00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:09.559 curiosity, then maybe half the battle is already 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:13.139 won. Then it's the question of tweaking it and 00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:16.279 making it work with the... existing circumstances 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.279 and conditions on the ground. And then you need 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.679 to have people who are well -versed in their 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:25.480 community, the realities of their community, 00:16:25.700 --> 00:16:30.279 but who are also well -versed in terms of different 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.860 faith systems. We have in Florida folks who are 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:41.000 genuinely interested in multi... faith and interfaith 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.200 work because they have genuine curiosity about 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.340 other faith systems. So to find those people 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.740 is key and it's, by the way, not easy because, 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.759 like he said, tribalism and these puritanical 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.899 tendencies are on the rise and that makes, you 00:16:57.899 --> 00:17:01.940 know, finding those folks very difficult or well 00:17:01.940 --> 00:17:05.779 -versed in multiple faiths and cultural traditions. 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.289 But I think in general because You know, it's 00:17:09.289 --> 00:17:14.609 so easy to travel these days and to have exposure 00:17:14.609 --> 00:17:17.829 to other countries and cultures. Maybe that could 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:22.089 be something that could contribute to enriching 00:17:22.089 --> 00:17:24.549 this work and facilitating this work. I mean, 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:26.930 for me personally, I've traveled to over 100 00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:31.230 countries and that's been very instrumental in 00:17:31.230 --> 00:17:36.470 sort of instilling in me the self -confidence 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:40.710 but also hope. that people are people. They're 00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:45.509 functionally, for the most part, the same. It's 00:17:45.509 --> 00:17:48.690 just that we sometimes tend to overemphasize 00:17:48.690 --> 00:17:51.849 the differences that could sometimes be actually 00:17:51.849 --> 00:17:56.869 minor and inconsequential at the expense of the 00:17:56.869 --> 00:18:01.710 commonalities of our humanity. I think that's 00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:04.900 the thing I've also noticed. we're all sharing 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:07.559 a very common human experience and even in situations 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:16.019 where literally there is no connection with the 00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:19.799 Varsa language, verbal language at least. you 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:21.799 can communicate and you get a sense of who people 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.400 are just by their actions, by their facial expressions, 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:27.700 by their attitude. There's so many other ways 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.519 to be able to read and connect to people and 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.160 share those experiences. I mean, it's kind of 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.599 odd that back in the day in Andalusia, we had 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.880 this interfaith ecosystem where Muslims, Jews, 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.940 and Christians worked so collaboratively together. 00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:45.640 And this was not even about interfaith tolerance. 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:50.170 They viewed each other... as vehicles for enrichment. 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:55.930 And I think we'll be lucky if we could emulate 00:18:55.930 --> 00:18:59.210 that Andalusian experience that you see in the 00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:03.309 south of Spain in cities like Granada, in Sevilla, 00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:10.789 in Cordoba in the 21st century. And again, at 00:19:10.789 --> 00:19:14.910 least on paper, we should be able to emulate 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:18.569 that experience on steroids in the 21st century. 00:19:18.730 --> 00:19:21.210 So why is it that we're not able to do that? 00:19:21.309 --> 00:19:24.109 Part of that has to do that we had a lot of these 00:19:24.109 --> 00:19:27.410 puritanical approaches to religion, which are 00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:31.069 very modern, recent phenomena. So maybe getting 00:19:31.069 --> 00:19:33.950 back to that traditional type of understanding 00:19:33.950 --> 00:19:39.069 religion will go a long way in facilitating that 00:19:39.069 --> 00:19:42.480 type of interaction. I mean, my perspective has 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.660 always been that part of the challenge also is 00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:51.180 that, you know, so much, even in not just, you 00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:53.480 know, the work that I do in this tradition, but 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:58.079 in other religious traditions as well, people 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.759 who are colonized especially are still... they're 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.740 still responding to their colonizers, even though 00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:07.680 the colonizers are gone. So that's one part of 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.819 it. And second is that they're constantly trying 00:20:10.819 --> 00:20:15.500 to defend their faith and trying to articulate 00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:22.519 it in a way that makes it, that is justifiable, 00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:27.059 I think, to an audience that's not their own. 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.869 And then also... they don't necessarily have 00:20:29.869 --> 00:20:34.549 the access to the intellectual tradition itself 00:20:34.549 --> 00:20:39.930 to create an organic creative space for the development 00:20:39.930 --> 00:20:44.210 of ideas within the civilization itself. And 00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:46.710 I think that that is a big challenge. So when 00:20:46.710 --> 00:20:49.470 you don't have the confidence that your civilization 00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:52.289 has something unique to tell the world, that 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:55.329 you're not constantly in response to someone 00:20:55.329 --> 00:20:58.430 else that's denigrating the tradition, you don't 00:20:58.430 --> 00:21:03.569 have that ability to be as creative, I think. 00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:07.049 And I think that's one of the challenges. I also 00:21:07.049 --> 00:21:09.289 think another challenge is that for a lot of 00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:17.279 people, they probably overmix religion and their 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:21.539 culture. Because I think it's much easier to 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:25.099 build interfaith bridges if folks could sort 00:21:25.099 --> 00:21:30.480 of separate out the cultural dimensions of their 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:35.440 faith. Because religions, when you strip them 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:37.380 down to their core, they're very easy. Like, 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:39.799 you know, think about Islam. It's the easiest 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:41.519 thing in the world to become Muslim. You just 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.849 profess. Oneness of God and the fact that the 00:21:44.849 --> 00:21:49.589 Prophet Muhammad is his messenger. So you're 00:21:49.589 --> 00:21:51.470 already part of that ecosystem. But when you 00:21:51.470 --> 00:21:54.509 talk to Muslims about what Islam means, they 00:21:54.509 --> 00:21:57.390 sort of accessorize it with a lot of cultural 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:01.970 stuff. And for a lot of these folks, they're 00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:05.069 not quite aware of where religion, like Islam, 00:22:05.210 --> 00:22:10.670 ends and when their cultural background begins. 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.599 in case they come from Pakistan or Iran or what 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.740 have you, they inject too much cultural stuff, 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:24.460 too many of their personal experiences into religion. 00:22:24.619 --> 00:22:28.779 And that makes our work very complicated. So 00:22:28.779 --> 00:22:32.500 I think it would be good for folks to understand. 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:36.869 and to be able to differentiate between the DNA 00:22:36.869 --> 00:22:39.109 of their religion, religion of Islam has a very 00:22:39.109 --> 00:22:44.150 simple DNA, and separate out, at least suspend 00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:48.569 the cultural accessories of their religion and 00:22:48.569 --> 00:22:52.529 enter the interfaith dialogue ecosystem in a 00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:56.089 very simple manner. I think that will make our 00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:59.130 work much easier. And this is what I tell my 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:03.160 students when I teach courses on Islam. that 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:11.259 need to understand the chromosome of Islam. And 00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:15.099 then learn about other things over history that 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:18.240 have been sedimented onto this religion. But 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:23.180 don't let that historical process impede your 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:26.660 ability to connect with other faith traditions. 00:23:26.859 --> 00:23:29.200 We have this notion of transcendental unity of 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:33.089 all religions. And that becomes... achievable 00:23:33.089 --> 00:23:37.109 when you understand that the kernel of truth 00:23:37.109 --> 00:23:42.589 in the Abrahamic tradition is largely the same. 00:23:43.930 --> 00:23:49.609 Absolutely. One of the challenges also, I know 00:23:49.609 --> 00:23:53.710 that you're working on many of these topics. 00:23:54.569 --> 00:23:58.569 How do you see the role of technology in AI? 00:23:59.769 --> 00:24:02.190 affecting interface dialogue and intercultural 00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:08.269 communication? Well, I think that needs to play 00:24:08.269 --> 00:24:11.710 out its full potential. But based on my initial 00:24:11.710 --> 00:24:17.329 experience with AI, especially with large language 00:24:17.329 --> 00:24:20.369 models, we have the problem of algorithmic biases 00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:24.289 that are baked into a lot of these systems. So 00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:29.109 you have all types of algorithmic biases. in 00:24:29.109 --> 00:24:31.029 these large language models and that has to do 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:33.630 a lot with their pre -training data, most of 00:24:33.630 --> 00:24:36.329 which has been harvested from the internet, mostly 00:24:36.329 --> 00:24:41.369 from Reddit. So the type of biases that you have 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:45.690 on platforms like Reddit get amplified in the 00:24:45.690 --> 00:24:49.009 large language models and a lot of folks, a lot 00:24:49.009 --> 00:24:54.039 of our students as well, they treat platforms 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:58.720 like ChatGPT as completely neutral and unbiased 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.259 and that becomes their primary source of getting 00:25:02.259 --> 00:25:05.519 information. So that is one challenge. But there's 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:07.700 also other types of biases, you know, there's 00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:11.059 selection bias, there's non -algorithmic types 00:25:11.059 --> 00:25:16.079 of biases that have created the problem of Islamophobia 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:21.730 in these large language models. And those are 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:25.210 issues that need to be addressed. I think the 00:25:25.210 --> 00:25:28.390 Muslim community has to be more proactive in 00:25:28.390 --> 00:25:32.829 addressing some of those pathologies that are 00:25:32.829 --> 00:25:39.210 in those platforms, both at the algorithmic and 00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:44.309 non -algorithmic level, because these platforms 00:25:44.309 --> 00:25:49.980 will shape our... our cognitive reality and a 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:55.480 lot of the ways in which we come to socialize 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.279 with the world because remember a lot of Gen 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.900 Z, the way they socialize with the world is not 00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:05.140 through physical interactions anymore. So they 00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:09.200 heavily rely on the cyber domain and on these 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.779 platforms. So that potentially could be a major 00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:19.980 roadblock. in the way of the work that we're 00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:24.019 trying to do. So that's why I've been a big advocate 00:26:24.019 --> 00:26:29.420 of creating some connectivity with these LLM 00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:34.039 platforms to expose, to flag, and then try and 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.299 come up with solutions to address some of these 00:26:38.299 --> 00:26:40.920 challenges like Islamophobia, like anti -Semitism, 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:44.079 and so forth that you see on those platforms. 00:26:44.990 --> 00:26:49.630 Okay, great. Last question. What do you want 00:26:49.630 --> 00:26:54.589 the community to take away from the work that 00:26:54.589 --> 00:26:57.369 you're doing, the research, the community activism? 00:26:58.029 --> 00:27:00.589 What are some important things that you think 00:27:00.589 --> 00:27:04.549 should be takeaways for the people that you're 00:27:04.549 --> 00:27:07.609 trying to reach? I think it'd be great if the 00:27:07.609 --> 00:27:12.299 community was more... actively, proactively engaged 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:17.140 and involved in the university ecosystem and 00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:20.559 there are a variety of ways they could contribute 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.819 to our work. The simplest of which is to come 00:27:24.819 --> 00:27:28.339 to our events in different capacities as audience, 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:34.519 as speakers, to our workshops and also I think 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.039 they could also give us feedback in terms of 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.140 what it is that they want us to do. to build 00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:44.039 those bridges. Because a lot of our work is organically 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:48.359 community -facing. Obviously, our primary audience 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:52.099 is our students, but our objective ultimately 00:27:52.099 --> 00:27:56.279 is to create these organic links between the 00:27:56.279 --> 00:28:01.579 community and our students. And I think that'd 00:28:01.579 --> 00:28:03.640 be a huge contribution by the community if they 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:05.680 could do that, but they can also contribute more 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:09.980 institutionally to our work. different types 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:14.400 of support that we could benefit from. We could 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:18.619 always work with more religious institutions 00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:26.799 in South Florida as well. And I mean, I think 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:31.019 as takeaway, like I said, the model that I always 00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:36.660 have in my mind is Andalusia and to somehow recreate. 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:43.170 that ecosystem in the 21st century. And that 00:28:43.170 --> 00:28:49.670 ecosystem obviously had a core of academics and 00:28:49.670 --> 00:28:53.170 intellectuals, that part of it, but then they 00:28:53.170 --> 00:28:58.609 were part of a larger community that was socialized 00:28:58.609 --> 00:29:01.309 into thinking about their existence in the world. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.480 in terms of an interfaith reality, intercultural 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.559 reality, and viewing folks from other faith traditions 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:15.680 as sources for mutual enrichment, for opening 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.680 new horizons and new avenues for development. 00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:23.900 And for our students, I always tell them that 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:25.819 they need to develop their character muscles. 00:29:26.299 --> 00:29:30.279 And this is the type of work that will... definitely 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:33.880 help facilitate the development of those character 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.480 muscles, which are essential to become successful 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.359 in any capacity, professional and non -professional, 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:46.059 that they will encounter in their lives. Absolutely. 00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.660 I think that's a very important point that a 00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:53.660 lot of the work that we do is critical, I think, 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.119 thinking about character and virtue. It's like 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.039 we're also trying to develop better people and 00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:03.019 when you actually have a deep spiritual core 00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:07.420 and you have an idea of you know ideas of justice 00:30:07.420 --> 00:30:10.400 of compassion these things are part of your character 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:14.220 this makes the work not only much easier but 00:30:14.220 --> 00:30:18.839 also becomes something that is creative, generative, 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.259 self -sustaining, and it just becomes part of 00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:23.019 your everyday life. So it's not something that's 00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:26.059 separate, interfaith dialogue or intercultural 00:30:26.059 --> 00:30:28.799 sort of competency, but it becomes part of who 00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:30.799 you are and how you sort of move through the 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.859 world. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone is... 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:37.619 born intolerant towards other religions or other 00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:40.440 people so this is something that you learn and 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.460 then unlearning it becomes complicated but that 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:50.420 is what we're trying to do to give them another 00:30:50.420 --> 00:30:54.000 opportunity to re -socialize themselves into 00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:01.539 a not a different reality but a more interfaith 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:06.000 you know, reality, hopefully. So there's this 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.200 process of unlearning that for me is very problematic 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:12.900 because unlearning means that you need to be 00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:17.640 willing to leave your comfort zone. And for a 00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:19.720 lot of people, that's difficult. But my advice 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:21.740 to students is that, you know, your comfort zone 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:26.279 is essentially a trap. And it takes some courage 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:29.660 to do that, but the rewards are absolutely worth 00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:34.970 it. in the long term. And we learn our best by 00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:38.650 challenges, by failures. All those things actually 00:31:38.650 --> 00:31:40.529 help us to grow as people. So it's really important 00:31:40.529 --> 00:31:43.289 to be able to have a bit of challenge out there 00:31:43.289 --> 00:31:45.950 to develop who we are as people. Well, thank 00:31:45.950 --> 00:31:48.269 you very much, Dr. Humayunbash. It's an honor 00:31:48.269 --> 00:31:50.470 and a pleasure to have you as our first guest 00:31:50.470 --> 00:31:52.430 in the series and look forward to continuing 00:31:52.430 --> 00:31:54.599 to work with you. Thank you so much. And I hope 00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:57.259 this is the beginning of a sustainable series 00:31:57.259 --> 00:32:00.160 of podcasts and hopefully YouTube channel. And 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:03.880 this is an amazing initiative. And I want to 00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:06.359 applaud you for taking this initiative. Thank 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:07.019 you. Thank you.