WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.740 Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast 00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:04.519 where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel, 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:07.059 a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who 00:00:07.059 --> 00:00:09.740 likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And 00:00:09.740 --> 00:00:11.919 I'm S, Carizel's dominant who knows how to deliver 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.000 all of the above. And today we're going to be 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:16.839 talking about dark romance, pitch black and erotic 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:19.719 horror. And we have a guest. We do. Let the fangirling 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:43.189 commence. So welcome. Our guest today is Ellie 00:00:43.189 --> 00:00:45.570 Sanders, who is an author. And I thought I would 00:00:45.570 --> 00:00:47.409 start with the question everyone hates and ask 00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:49.170 you to tell us a little bit about you and what 00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:51.969 you do. Oh, amazing. I actually really like this 00:00:51.969 --> 00:00:54.229 question because I feel like, oh, this is my 00:00:54.229 --> 00:00:58.009 moment. So yeah, I'm Ellie Sanders. I'm a... 00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:00.850 Absolute introvert. I'm going to spend my entire 00:01:00.850 --> 00:01:02.909 life in a dark room if I could. And then for 00:01:02.909 --> 00:01:05.170 some reason, whenever I'm talking about my writing, 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:07.469 it's like I flip. And I'm just like, yeah, I 00:01:07.469 --> 00:01:10.650 can do this. This is amazing. So yeah, I write 00:01:10.650 --> 00:01:13.989 dark romance and what I call pitch black romance. 00:01:14.670 --> 00:01:17.689 So some people call it erotic horror. I, for 00:01:17.689 --> 00:01:20.930 various reasons, have, I just feel deeply uncomfortable 00:01:20.930 --> 00:01:23.769 calling mine erotic horror. But it does kind 00:01:23.769 --> 00:01:27.069 of fit in that genre, if that makes sense. Yeah, 00:01:27.109 --> 00:01:30.120 so that's me. awesome and that was something 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:31.540 I was going to ask about is where you would sort 00:01:31.540 --> 00:01:33.659 of where you would kind of classify your writing 00:01:33.659 --> 00:01:35.879 and I would say from my perspective at least 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:37.739 it seems like you sort of leaned darker as you've 00:01:37.739 --> 00:01:39.560 gone on sort of started more in dark romance 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.180 and then gone into pitch black Yeah, that's exactly 00:01:42.180 --> 00:01:44.659 what happened. So I, years and years ago, I started 00:01:44.659 --> 00:01:47.579 writing fantasy or what I class as dark fantasy 00:01:47.579 --> 00:01:51.019 or romantasy as it's now been relabeled. But 00:01:51.019 --> 00:01:53.819 mine was always a little bit dark and no one 00:01:53.819 --> 00:01:56.459 ever read it. And I was like, OK, this is clearly 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:59.540 not my genre. This is not working. And then I 00:01:59.540 --> 00:02:02.519 wrote a series which I did zero research on and 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:04.859 should have really researched, which was more 00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:07.340 dark romance. It had a lot of like BDSM elements 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:10.889 with... none of the research into the BDSM community 00:02:10.889 --> 00:02:13.669 so it's absolutely diabolical and it thankfully 00:02:13.669 --> 00:02:16.389 has been unpublished now honestly it's it's looking 00:02:16.389 --> 00:02:19.449 back it's not a great series um but what I started 00:02:19.449 --> 00:02:21.789 doing was writing darker and darker and it just 00:02:21.789 --> 00:02:24.449 it's almost like I niched myself and found my 00:02:24.449 --> 00:02:26.789 calling and it's it's really weird because I 00:02:26.789 --> 00:02:28.469 kind of then got to a point where what I've been 00:02:28.469 --> 00:02:30.990 writing to my penultimate book in the series 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:34.330 um for my current series uh called Deprivation 00:02:34.330 --> 00:02:37.240 really like I don't know what it was about that 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:39.039 book, but that book really knocked me off my 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:40.280 kilter a little bit. And I was like, oh God, 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:42.240 I feel really, and normally I finish the book 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:43.939 and they're horrible. Like what happens in these 00:02:43.939 --> 00:02:45.939 books is horrific. It's really horrible stuff. 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.560 It's not romanticized at all. These are nasty, 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:52.139 nasty books. But at the same time, normally I 00:02:52.139 --> 00:02:54.780 finish, I'm like, yeah, this is great. It's unhinged. 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:57.099 And that one, for some reason, just really affected 00:02:57.099 --> 00:03:00.139 me. So then the spinal one, I was like, right, 00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:02.060 I need to kind of pull myself back a little bit. 00:03:02.650 --> 00:03:04.889 although i've gone really really dark now i'm 00:03:04.889 --> 00:03:07.650 gonna try and be slightly less dark um for the 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:09.689 next series just because i didn't think i had 00:03:09.689 --> 00:03:11.349 a level and i'm like oh yeah there it is there's 00:03:11.349 --> 00:03:13.889 my boundary okay yeah no that completely makes 00:03:13.889 --> 00:03:17.349 sense i think much as they are incredible to 00:03:17.349 --> 00:03:19.430 read i imagine inhabiting that world and the 00:03:19.430 --> 00:03:20.750 headspace of the characters for long periods 00:03:20.750 --> 00:03:22.129 of time the way you have to when you're writing 00:03:22.129 --> 00:03:25.740 must feel like a lot sometimes Yeah. And I do 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:28.319 this thing. So the best way to explain it is 00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:29.979 if you had like, I'm sure lots of people had 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.400 it, but if you had a method acting. So, you know, 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.360 like, yeah, I kind of do that a little bit of 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:37.819 my writing. I'm like almost like method writing 00:03:37.819 --> 00:03:39.780 where I'm like, right, I'm fully in this headspace. 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:42.159 I am the FMC. I'm going through this. And the 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.240 way I write, I can I visualize the scene. So 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:47.629 it's like I'm living that scene. And that's how 00:03:47.629 --> 00:03:49.389 I kind of get in the right headspace and pull 00:03:49.389 --> 00:03:51.629 the emotions and do it all. And obviously, if 00:03:51.629 --> 00:03:53.990 you're just writing a lot of non -con scenes, 00:03:54.430 --> 00:03:57.389 after a while, that kind of takes effect. And 00:03:57.389 --> 00:04:00.669 when you're writing the MMC, sometimes it's really 00:04:00.669 --> 00:04:02.770 quite fun because you're like, yeah, I'm a complete 00:04:02.770 --> 00:04:04.810 villain. This is great. And then after a while, 00:04:04.810 --> 00:04:06.569 I was like, oh, God, this is all starting to... 00:04:07.250 --> 00:04:09.629 actually kind of like made me not depressed because 00:04:09.629 --> 00:04:11.629 I think that's too far of a stretch but it definitely 00:04:11.629 --> 00:04:13.830 was starting to affect my mental health and my 00:04:13.830 --> 00:04:15.810 poor partner he'd come home for work sometimes 00:04:15.810 --> 00:04:17.490 and I'd be in the foulest of moods he's like 00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:19.269 what's happened and I'm like oh yeah I'm in a 00:04:19.269 --> 00:04:20.829 foul mood because I've just written this really 00:04:20.829 --> 00:04:23.689 incredibly horrible scene and I can't switch 00:04:23.689 --> 00:04:25.750 off from that I think sometimes it's like the 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:28.899 line blurs a little bit yeah how do you pull 00:04:28.899 --> 00:04:30.620 yourself out of that when that sort of thing 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:34.100 happened I've become really old so I for one 00:04:34.100 --> 00:04:35.939 I have a massive baby face so everyone thinks 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:39.199 I'm like mid -20s and it's like I wish um so 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.459 I'm I'm about to sadly hit 40 and I think maybe 00:04:42.459 --> 00:04:45.040 just because I've got really old um I've got 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.699 really into gardening which i like i clearly 00:04:48.699 --> 00:04:51.360 this is my thing so i'm on my facebook you know 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.120 you get like videos from other little facebook 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.180 pages and stuff all i get is like these people 00:04:55.180 --> 00:04:57.100 with like they're growing their beautiful flowers 00:04:57.100 --> 00:04:59.560 and their gardens and they're watering and i 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.800 just sit there i watch them like oh this is lovely 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.560 and it's all and then i I before we've we've 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:07.240 just got a puppy and she's kind of taken over 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.379 my life but before we got the puppy I get up 00:05:09.379 --> 00:05:11.120 at half five every morning and I'd be listening 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:13.540 to lovely music and I'd be like watering I'm 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:15.819 like this is amazing and then I go write the 00:05:15.819 --> 00:05:18.579 most horrific stuff but like mentally I think 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:21.399 that balanced really well I think it's just that 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.990 there's definitely an element of managing your 00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:26.970 own headspace um and also like things like mindfulness 00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:31.430 and I uh I sleep with um this meditation music 00:05:31.430 --> 00:05:34.069 so all night all I'm hearing is this really lovely 00:05:34.069 --> 00:05:36.050 meditation music so every morning I wake up and 00:05:36.050 --> 00:05:38.370 I feel really great and positive and that I think 00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:41.709 that that definitely helps me yeah yeah that 00:05:41.709 --> 00:05:44.550 makes sense so what inspired you to start writing 00:05:44.550 --> 00:05:46.730 dark romance and what has inspired the the kind 00:05:46.730 --> 00:05:50.870 of darker turn yeah so for me um I like I think 00:05:50.870 --> 00:05:53.699 a lot of people um I've had some really, what 00:05:53.699 --> 00:05:55.660 I pass as unpleasant experiences in my life. 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:00.319 I didn't have a great childhood, sadly. And what 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.439 I found growing up was reading books that probably 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:05.740 weren't appropriate for my age, but reading books 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:09.160 and reading about this stuff, I found, like, 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:11.339 if you've been through something incredibly traumatic, 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:13.899 it can be incredibly isolating and it can really, 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.759 it makes you feel very lonely and very cut off 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:17.699 from the rest of the world because you feel like 00:06:17.699 --> 00:06:19.199 no one else has been through it and it's only 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:22.949 you. And then for me, reading about these characters 00:06:22.949 --> 00:06:26.269 that were going through similar things made me 00:06:26.269 --> 00:06:28.949 realise that I wasn't the only person. And I 00:06:28.949 --> 00:06:30.730 know it's kind of obvious when you say that out 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:33.009 loud as an adult, but as a child, you're like, 00:06:33.129 --> 00:06:35.410 oh, OK, it's not, you know, it's not just me. 00:06:35.470 --> 00:06:38.069 It's not a me problem. This is, it is bigger 00:06:38.069 --> 00:06:41.269 than me. And then when I started reading Dark 00:06:41.269 --> 00:06:43.629 Romance, when I, it sounds weird. So I have a 00:06:43.629 --> 00:06:45.329 huge thing about imposter syndrome. I have this 00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:48.120 massive, I think it's... part of my trauma that 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:49.560 I always have this thing where I never feel I'm 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:52.220 good enough and I was so scared about writing 00:06:52.220 --> 00:06:54.160 this stuff because what I didn't want it to be 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:57.720 was gratuitous and I didn't want it to be glorifying 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.319 I was like I'm never going to do this justice 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:00.740 I'm never going to be able to write these scenes 00:07:00.740 --> 00:07:04.079 in a way so I was very scared of writing this 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:05.680 stuff and then after a while I was like well 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:09.019 I've got to try it I've got to get these stories 00:07:09.019 --> 00:07:11.459 out because I felt I was reading some of it and 00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:14.120 some of it was maybe unintentionally but was 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:15.939 romanticizing it or not showing the psychological 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:18.519 side and for me when i'm writing all this stuff 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:20.019 for me it's really really important not just 00:07:20.019 --> 00:07:23.240 to show the physical horror but also what that 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.699 does to a person psychologically and how it breaks 00:07:25.699 --> 00:07:30.639 them um and so i try to always focus on the psychological 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:34.100 side and do that and actually particularly with 00:07:34.100 --> 00:07:36.970 the brethren lords because the FMCs go through 00:07:36.970 --> 00:07:41.449 absolutely horrifying situations and actually 00:07:41.449 --> 00:07:44.110 they all evolve, they all change, and that is 00:07:44.110 --> 00:07:45.850 a direct result of the trauma they go through. 00:07:46.850 --> 00:07:49.649 And I think I just felt like it was, not to sound 00:07:49.649 --> 00:07:51.629 cheesy, but it felt like this was what I needed 00:07:51.629 --> 00:07:53.569 to do, like I needed to get these stories out. 00:07:54.170 --> 00:07:55.910 And I know they're quite controversial. I know 00:07:55.910 --> 00:07:58.529 some people really don't like these stories and 00:07:58.529 --> 00:08:00.310 say some really horrible stuff. And I've been 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:02.889 on the receiving end of a lot of that. But I 00:08:02.889 --> 00:08:06.149 do think they are definitely a niche. I don't 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:07.589 think these stories are for everyone. But at 00:08:07.589 --> 00:08:09.509 the same time, I think there is a very needed 00:08:09.509 --> 00:08:13.129 place for them. No, that makes a lot of sense. 00:08:13.509 --> 00:08:16.490 Yeah. And it's kind of a topic that we've talked 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:18.550 about with guests on the podcast before, kind 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:21.990 of who create all different kinds of content 00:08:21.990 --> 00:08:24.240 and, you know, careers in Europe. content create 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:26.620 yourself on on TikTok so you get a little bit 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:29.660 of this kind of interested in talking about censorship 00:08:29.660 --> 00:08:33.820 and stigma and how you how people kind of react 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:37.720 to their yeah to the works that you've done yeah 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:40.659 so I I had my first video go viral on TikTok 00:08:40.659 --> 00:08:44.379 I think it was three years ago um It wasn't a 00:08:44.379 --> 00:08:46.080 particularly controversial video, in my opinion. 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:48.919 It went viral. And as a result of that, like 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:50.879 a lot of women who've experienced when suddenly 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:52.399 there's a bit of attention on them, they get 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.519 the usual dick pics and the usual standard bullshit, 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.620 shall I say. And there was a part of me that 00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:00.299 was like, oh, God, oh, this is really horrible. 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.000 And then I kind of sat myself down and was like, 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:04.080 look, I need to be able to, if I'm going to be 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:06.360 a writer, I'm putting myself in a public space. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:08.740 If I'm not ready to deal with this attention, 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:10.700 I need to stop right now, stop the writing, step 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:13.179 back. This is not for me. And I just kind of 00:09:13.179 --> 00:09:14.740 thought, I'm not going to do that. I want to 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:16.759 do this. I need to be able to manage this psychologically. 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:19.559 Otherwise, so I kind of thought, right, okay, 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:21.980 I'm just going to, that's it. This is my moment 00:09:21.980 --> 00:09:24.200 where I'm like, I'm dealing with this from now 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.580 on. That's fine. And then as a result, I regularly 00:09:28.580 --> 00:09:32.919 get death threats. I regularly, at least once 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:34.799 or twice a month, I get told that I deserve to 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:37.460 be raped. I deserve my family to be raped. I 00:09:37.460 --> 00:09:40.179 deserve for us all to be murdered. I get told 00:09:40.179 --> 00:09:41.700 that I should just do the world a favour and 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:45.600 kill myself. And to be honest, I can laugh about 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.230 it. Because that's how I deal with stuff. Like 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:50.830 I'm very black humor and very, you either laugh 00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:53.009 or cry and I'm not willing to cry because I don't 00:09:53.009 --> 00:09:56.909 cry about stuff. Probably not very helpful, but 00:09:56.909 --> 00:09:58.690 quite often I reply to these people saying, you 00:09:58.690 --> 00:10:01.950 okay, hon? Because I'm like, if you're willing 00:10:01.950 --> 00:10:05.190 to send that level of something to someone else 00:10:05.190 --> 00:10:06.990 on the internet who you've never met, then... 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:09.620 Clearly you've got issues in your life, whatever 00:10:09.620 --> 00:10:12.580 they are. And I've had people that have been 00:10:12.580 --> 00:10:13.700 messing with me going, why do you write this 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:15.320 stuff? And they've started off with a, you know, 00:10:15.379 --> 00:10:17.139 you're disgusting, why are you writing this? 00:10:17.259 --> 00:10:19.019 And then not saying I've changed their mind entirely, 00:10:19.179 --> 00:10:22.500 but having had that conversation back with them, 00:10:22.580 --> 00:10:24.860 they've kind of understood it from a different 00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:27.440 perspective. And I think a lot of it comes down 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.200 to communication and people, people are very 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:31.899 black and white, aren't they? They're very much, 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.960 this is my lived experience. anything anyone 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:37.080 else has lived is not the same as mine and therefore 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.279 I'm right and they're wrong and I think sometimes 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:41.379 when you have that conversation around it you 00:10:41.379 --> 00:10:46.100 can change someone's perspective not always but 00:10:46.100 --> 00:10:48.879 I think yeah and I think there's a very needed 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:52.070 place for these books despite the hate for them 00:10:52.070 --> 00:10:55.090 yeah it depends i think sometimes doesn't it 00:10:55.090 --> 00:10:57.490 whether people are engaging in good faith whether 00:10:57.490 --> 00:10:59.149 they actually want to understand your perspective 00:10:59.149 --> 00:11:01.470 at least on some level or those people who go 00:11:01.470 --> 00:11:03.110 straight in with a death or a rape threat it's 00:11:03.110 --> 00:11:04.990 like they they are not here to learn they just 00:11:04.990 --> 00:11:06.870 want to yeah they don't want to learn they just 00:11:06.870 --> 00:11:09.409 want to send some hate um i get quite often because 00:11:09.409 --> 00:11:12.210 i get a lot of it on tiktok and what i find really 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:14.049 amusing is what they'll do is they'll create 00:11:14.049 --> 00:11:16.909 an account they'll send me a load of hate and 00:11:16.909 --> 00:11:19.289 then they'll delete their account And I'm like, 00:11:19.309 --> 00:11:21.889 wow, like I live that rent free in your head 00:11:21.889 --> 00:11:24.250 that you've gone to that much effort. And it's 00:11:24.250 --> 00:11:26.450 like that for me just makes me chuckle a little 00:11:26.450 --> 00:11:28.070 bit. But it's like, OK, you like literally you 00:11:28.070 --> 00:11:30.269 just wanted to send your anonymous hate to someone 00:11:30.269 --> 00:11:32.470 and not have a reply. And it's like, OK, that's 00:11:32.470 --> 00:11:34.889 fine. That for me, I'm OK with that. I'm comfortable 00:11:34.889 --> 00:11:36.769 with that. If that's how you deal with whatever 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:38.570 you've got going on in your life. OK, that's 00:11:38.570 --> 00:11:41.149 fine. Because it's not really aimed at me, the 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.529 individual. It's just they're angry at the world 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:45.309 and they've got to get that anger out. And that's 00:11:45.309 --> 00:11:47.090 what it is. Do you ever get like sometimes on? 00:11:47.610 --> 00:11:50.909 your tiktoks you will have um somebody will say 00:11:50.909 --> 00:11:52.769 something negative and then somebody another 00:11:52.769 --> 00:11:54.750 follower will kind of come along and kind of 00:11:54.750 --> 00:11:57.950 leap to your defense kind of thing and i guess 00:11:57.950 --> 00:11:59.629 that can it's a little bit like the good faith 00:11:59.629 --> 00:12:01.490 bad faith argument isn't it that can go kind 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:04.169 of one of two ways either yeah everybody learns 00:12:04.169 --> 00:12:07.250 something Or it's a complete shit show. Usually 00:12:07.250 --> 00:12:11.970 with mine, it's a complete shit show. And there's 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:13.809 a part of me that's really honoured that fans 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:15.389 are like, oh, God, they're leaping to my defence. 00:12:15.950 --> 00:12:19.070 I'm honoured that someone is wanting to defend 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:20.409 me. But there's a part of me that's like, please 00:12:20.409 --> 00:12:22.330 don't, because then they are going to aim that 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:25.070 shit at you. And I'm comfortable. Do you know 00:12:25.070 --> 00:12:26.370 what I mean? I'm comfortable with getting that 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:27.870 shit aimed at me. It doesn't affect me anymore. 00:12:28.429 --> 00:12:30.210 But if someone else is suddenly getting a whole 00:12:30.210 --> 00:12:33.950 load of messages. There was an Instagram post. 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.220 I think it was like two, three months ago, about 00:12:37.220 --> 00:12:41.539 a fellow. She writes pitch black slash horror 00:12:41.539 --> 00:12:44.980 erotica, as she labels it. And she wrote a book 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:46.720 that's got really, really, really controversial. 00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:50.360 I'm, what I'd say, good friends with her. I'm 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:51.759 good friends with a lot of other authors because 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:53.460 I'm very much, you know, we're all in this together. 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.960 It's an incredibly lonely. space at Times Writing 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:57.679 and actually if we can help and bounce ideas. 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.659 So her name's Miranda Grant and she wrote what 00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:04.320 is a very controversial book and people were 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.820 reading it partly because it got so controversial. 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:09.779 So it's about a coma patient and it kind of went 00:13:09.779 --> 00:13:12.720 viral on TikTok. And people were reading it simply 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:15.620 just to kind of content, in my opinion, and to 00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:17.539 be like, look, isn't this outrageous? It's disgusting. 00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:18.919 And it's like, but that book was never meant 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.100 for you. That's not your, you know, you're not 00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:24.320 that person to read this book. The controversy 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.259 around that book was how I discovered it, though, 00:13:26.299 --> 00:13:28.419 which was great. I get my recommendations from 00:13:28.419 --> 00:13:30.500 the hate. Yeah. Yeah. Keeping her under, right? 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.279 Yeah. Yeah. Keeping her under. Yeah. I've not 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.820 read the book. I probably should at some point, 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:39.129 but I'm. I'm very strict in my writing. Sorry, 00:13:39.210 --> 00:13:40.590 I've gone on a tangent here, but I'm very strict 00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:42.649 in my writing. If I write in, I will not read 00:13:42.649 --> 00:13:44.929 someone else's book at the same time because 00:13:44.929 --> 00:13:46.570 I don't want their voice to influence me and 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:48.450 I don't want to accidentally, not plagiarise, 00:13:48.450 --> 00:13:49.889 but do you know what I mean? I just think if 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:52.370 I'm not looking at their stuff, there's no risk 00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:55.370 of any crossover whatsoever. But yeah, I wrote 00:13:55.370 --> 00:13:59.169 a little defence on someone's post about how 00:13:59.169 --> 00:14:00.710 outrageous this book was saying, you know, this 00:14:00.710 --> 00:14:03.200 book is very... targeted audience and you're 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.820 clearly not it and the amount of shit i've got 00:14:05.820 --> 00:14:08.519 back for it and i was like this is exactly what 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.840 my readers or my fans must get when they reply 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.059 back to something on my post and then it's just 00:14:13.059 --> 00:14:15.879 it's a shit show yeah it's an absolute shit show 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.980 it's just just as a bit of an aside is that the 00:14:18.980 --> 00:14:21.889 book where she had to write all kinds of trigger 00:14:21.889 --> 00:14:23.490 warnings because there was people saying, it 00:14:23.490 --> 00:14:25.330 would have been great to hear more from the female 00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:27.909 main character. It's like, she's in a coma. So 00:14:27.909 --> 00:14:30.210 the page to buy it, it says she's in a coma like 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:32.210 multiple times on the page, yeah. She did this 00:14:32.210 --> 00:14:35.309 really funny, what's the word, visual. I'm really 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:37.309 bad with words. I'm great at writing. I'm bad 00:14:37.309 --> 00:14:39.129 at speaking. She did this visual where she's 00:14:39.129 --> 00:14:40.929 got the cover of the book and then that's very 00:14:40.929 --> 00:14:42.509 arrogant of me saying I'm great at writing, isn't 00:14:42.509 --> 00:14:48.970 it? No, I fully agree. but she did this great 00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:50.490 image where she had to pick the cover of the 00:14:50.490 --> 00:14:53.370 book and then she had she's in a coma she's like 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:55.330 and she read it in so many different ways and 00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:58.090 it was really like like she's in a coma how many 00:14:58.090 --> 00:14:59.649 more times do you want that's why there's no 00:14:59.649 --> 00:15:02.350 point of you because she's in a coma um yeah 00:15:02.350 --> 00:15:05.549 so i think sometimes the the hate can end up 00:15:05.549 --> 00:15:07.250 being it can do your marketing for you because 00:15:07.250 --> 00:15:09.769 people who are your target audience We know that 00:15:09.769 --> 00:15:11.129 if a book is blowing up and people are saying 00:15:11.129 --> 00:15:13.070 it's really controversial and people are review 00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:14.610 bombing it and things like that, we know it's 00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:16.850 probably going to be what we like. So I guess 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:19.490 that's the bright side to it is the publicity. 00:15:19.490 --> 00:15:22.309 That is definitely, yeah. And getting a banned 00:15:22.309 --> 00:15:25.769 book is, it's interesting because everyone was 00:15:25.769 --> 00:15:27.149 like, oh yeah, once you've got a banned book, 00:15:27.169 --> 00:15:30.019 you've made it. And then obviously I had... I 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:31.779 had debt provision banned and that went from 00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:33.419 like two seconds up like, ha ha, this is funny, 00:15:33.500 --> 00:15:34.960 they banned my book to like, oh my God, this 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:37.179 is a complete fucking disaster. Because from 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:40.639 a logistical perspective, it was a absolute fucking 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.200 nightmare. But then actually on the flip side, 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:45.759 it's done really well and everyone seems to want 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.039 to read it. So I think with everything in life, 00:15:49.059 --> 00:15:53.559 there's pros and cons. And I think, yeah, I think... 00:15:53.929 --> 00:15:55.789 if you look at reviews i don't look at reviews 00:15:55.789 --> 00:15:59.669 um any of my reviews because i'm like half the 00:15:59.669 --> 00:16:01.070 people like this is the best book ever and half 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:02.830 the people like this is the worst book and it 00:16:02.830 --> 00:16:04.649 you need to die and i'm like okay that's fine 00:16:04.649 --> 00:16:06.169 you know everyone's entitled to their opinion 00:16:06.169 --> 00:16:09.309 um but i think you can tell generally from reviews 00:16:09.309 --> 00:16:12.970 where a book fits in your dark um what's the 00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:16.250 word trigger list trigger list um on the on the 00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:18.110 scope of like the level of darkness that you 00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:24.710 want there we go you can tell from reviews roughly 00:16:24.710 --> 00:16:27.210 where it sits so from a reader perspective reviews 00:16:27.210 --> 00:16:29.509 are really really helpful i always find that 00:16:29.509 --> 00:16:31.549 the trigger warnings at the beginning of these 00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:33.090 kind of books absolutely fascinating because 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:36.149 yours are like pages and pages two or three pages 00:16:36.149 --> 00:16:39.809 typically right i think i think the problem sometimes 00:16:39.809 --> 00:16:42.649 is you can get a book that's quite light in my 00:16:42.649 --> 00:16:44.429 opinion and it's got loads of trigger warnings 00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:46.169 and it's like i can see why you've put that trigger 00:16:46.169 --> 00:16:49.490 warning in but having like kidnapping there's 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.049 there's various different forms of kidnapping 00:16:51.049 --> 00:16:52.929 there's nice kidnapping and then there is horrible 00:16:52.929 --> 00:16:54.970 brutal kidnapping and i think sometimes people 00:16:54.970 --> 00:16:56.830 had their trigger warnings to make their book 00:16:56.830 --> 00:16:59.309 look more than it is and then you get to a book 00:16:59.309 --> 00:17:03.169 yeah like deviant and they're like wow this can't 00:17:03.169 --> 00:17:04.670 be that bad and then they're like this is the 00:17:04.670 --> 00:17:07.009 most horrifying thing ever and it's like and 00:17:07.009 --> 00:17:09.509 i i get a lot of people going i didn't take your 00:17:09.509 --> 00:17:11.490 trigger warning seriously and i'm really traumatized 00:17:11.490 --> 00:17:14.410 and i was like like i can't do more than tell 00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:16.509 you to take them seriously like this book is 00:17:16.809 --> 00:17:19.309 fucking horrible like be aware of it when you're 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:22.670 reading it so yeah yeah that's it i mean i'm 00:17:22.670 --> 00:17:25.710 a fairly new fairly new arrival to the whole 00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:27.970 genre really but as part of kind of doing a little 00:17:27.970 --> 00:17:31.170 bit of research for for this i read deviant and 00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:33.890 i was like wow that's there's that's that's a 00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:37.210 lot um like they never even read like romanticy 00:17:37.210 --> 00:17:40.960 like sort of vanilla smut nothing like that and 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.839 they went straight to jump in with as well yeah 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.779 yeah oh because you because you talked about 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:48.700 it so positively you're such a big fan of the 00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:52.319 the yeah that series so it's like okay if i'm 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:53.799 gonna if i'm gonna talk to the author i need 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:55.700 to kind of understand a little bit oh my gosh 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:58.339 and then the realization no it was it was good 00:17:58.339 --> 00:18:02.200 i enjoyed it i i yeah really i did did really 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.059 get into it but like understanding that that's 00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:08.220 the probably the lighter part of the series it 00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:10.960 kind of I know it gets darker as you go through 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.660 like wow honestly I wrote that book and I was 00:18:14.660 --> 00:18:16.259 like right this is either gonna make me or get 00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:17.960 me cancelled and I was like fuck it let's do 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.400 it let's see what happens and like the taxidermy 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.440 dick scene I was like oh so I'm really into vintage 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.819 taxidermy um there isn't any in this room but 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:29.779 almost like that sounds really creepy not my 00:18:29.779 --> 00:18:31.099 bedroom because it's creepy to have dead things 00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:33.519 in your bedroom but like I have You know, like 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.700 the Victorian arsenic type. Oh, I love it all. 00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:39.960 I love. So I was like, right, I'm putting taxidermy 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.460 in and this is amazing. And I did so much research 00:18:42.460 --> 00:18:45.400 into how to taxidermy skin. And I was like, this 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:49.759 is disgusting, but great. And then I didn't think 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.880 depravity was as bad as everyone said it was. 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.500 Like I like I know it's. it's dark but I didn't 00:18:56.500 --> 00:18:58.160 think people like this is the most horrifying 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.079 thing and I was like okay um and then everyone 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:02.819 is like the next book that I've written everyone's 00:19:02.819 --> 00:19:04.299 like god it gets darker and darker and I was 00:19:04.299 --> 00:19:07.319 like does it maybe just maybe I'm too jaded now 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.099 like maybe it doesn't affect me anymore and then 00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:12.480 deprivation came and kicked me in the ass um 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.559 I think it's the ending on deprivation that got 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:17.599 me because all the others the ending is so bleak 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:23.019 yeah it's so fucking bleak I have this thing 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:24.660 when I finish a book, I'm always like, right, 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.619 book's done, it's got to go to the editor. So 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:29.039 I then always go and do like a little celebratory, 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.700 go up to Costa, I've got a little Costa up the 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:32.400 road. So I go up there, I get myself a hot chocolate 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.319 and I get myself a little Cina Panini. And I 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:38.019 was like, and I went up there and I was like, 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.279 I need a cake. I need, like, this is not enough. 00:19:40.339 --> 00:19:43.480 I need, like, I need something positive. Yeah, 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:48.329 that book is so depressing. I think out of the 00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:51.210 series, Deprivation is my favourite, but the 00:19:51.210 --> 00:19:54.069 ending is so bleak. And I think it's all the 00:19:54.069 --> 00:19:55.470 bleaker for the fact that probably at about the 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:57.849 85 % mark, there is a spark of hope there. It's 00:19:57.849 --> 00:19:59.869 like, this is still going to be pitch black as 00:19:59.869 --> 00:20:03.990 hell, but it's Antonio's softening and the relationship 00:20:03.990 --> 00:20:06.309 could develop into something slightly less horrific. 00:20:07.170 --> 00:20:10.349 And then you pull rug. I think the thing is, 00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:11.829 you get to that point and you're like, oh God, 00:20:11.950 --> 00:20:13.609 because there's a point where they both kind 00:20:13.609 --> 00:20:16.519 of... almost there is that positivity and you 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:19.099 think something is going to happen and then obviously 00:20:19.099 --> 00:20:21.880 something happens which then creates something 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.220 which not to give it away but it and then you're 00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:26.500 just like antonio you're a complete fucking twat 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:29.319 i just kind of want to get into the book i'm 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.359 like slapping but like what are you doing like 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.880 yeah and like sabotaging himself as well like 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.299 ruins it for himself as well as everyone else 00:20:37.299 --> 00:20:39.380 yeah he does and it's like you're you're a grown 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:41.599 man like you're not even like grace is what 21 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:44.970 22 in the book like she's really young he's like 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:47.410 a 40 year old man like come on give her some 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:52.230 grace considering ironic but um um yeah like 00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:55.289 she's gone through all this absolute horror give 00:20:55.289 --> 00:20:57.490 her a little bit of time to get over it and you 00:20:57.490 --> 00:21:02.410 could fix this and instead he's just yeah a piece 00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:05.990 of shit absolute piece of shit you will have 00:21:05.990 --> 00:21:11.440 to read it it's yeah you probably will I think 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.299 probably the most disturbing part of it was after 00:21:13.299 --> 00:21:15.539 I finished reading it, we were kind of talking 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:17.099 about the characters and stuff like that. And 00:21:17.099 --> 00:21:19.700 given the kind of kinks that we do and the dynamic 00:21:19.700 --> 00:21:22.000 that we have, probably not massively surprising, 00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:25.400 but you said the male main character kind of 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:31.259 reminds me of you. I was like, wow. Like a consensual 00:21:31.259 --> 00:21:33.880 version, like a consensual version of Magnus. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.220 But a consensual version of Magnus is hot. like 00:21:37.220 --> 00:21:39.980 that is you know that is really hot and non -consensual 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:42.440 scary as fuck but it is it i think that is it 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:45.019 is exactly it's the consent that is yeah yeah 00:21:45.019 --> 00:21:48.160 because we do a lot of like what sort of psychological 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.759 we do quite a lot of like psychological play 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:53.519 and sort of playing with conditioning and things 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.940 like that and that's exactly what magnus is so 00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.039 good at like out of all of the the male main 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:00.650 characters that you've written he actually is 00:22:00.650 --> 00:22:03.529 capable at it where someone like Conrad is very 00:22:03.529 --> 00:22:07.410 much a blunt instrument he's like yeah he really 00:22:07.410 --> 00:22:09.910 is because he thinks he's as good as Magnus he's 00:22:09.910 --> 00:22:11.809 like yeah I can do this and then he's like fuck 00:22:11.809 --> 00:22:17.549 it get the mallet I'm done yeah to the point 00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:21.950 yeah Conrad is up next for you if you continue 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:24.089 the series in order Conrad is the next one you'll 00:22:24.089 --> 00:22:27.410 meet yeah interesting okay he's the blunt instrument 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.859 um you mentioned that you had uh one of your 00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:42.400 books deprivation uh banned um what happened 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.440 there one thing that i think happened and it's 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.380 been happening to a lot of authors recently is 00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:49.900 i think amazon has done something with their 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:52.259 internal system whether it's ai bots or whatever 00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:53.920 it is but there is something because a lot of 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:57.480 people's books are getting flagged um Some of 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.240 them unnecessarily, some of them maybe more, 00:23:01.339 --> 00:23:05.720 what's the word, appropriately flagged. For me, 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.920 I think I've been dodging a ban for a little 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:11.720 while now. So when it happened, I was like, oh, 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:13.420 OK, like I didn't expect it. But at the same 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:15.079 time, I've been waiting for them to come out 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:21.480 and say enough, like you've enough. So it was 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:23.759 more the timing that I didn't quite expect it 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.559 when it happened. behind the scenes what happens 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:28.480 is when you get banned you get an email that 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.500 says you're basically we've done a content review 00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:34.460 uh you go against our policy guidelines or the 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:38.920 content um guidelines and as such we're basically 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.000 we've blocked your book and then it has this 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.819 little bit that says if you can fix whatever 00:23:42.819 --> 00:23:48.029 we will uh reconsider um With me, what happened 00:23:48.029 --> 00:23:49.990 was, one, that email went to my junk, which was 00:23:49.990 --> 00:23:51.990 rather unhelpful, because then I started getting 00:23:51.990 --> 00:23:53.569 messages from people going, we can't get your 00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:55.369 book, you can't get your book. And then I was 00:23:55.369 --> 00:23:58.069 almost getting it. like live time that they were 00:23:58.069 --> 00:23:59.309 getting it we're all going through this together 00:23:59.309 --> 00:24:01.690 going oh shit where's the book and then I was 00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:03.230 like right I'll go into what's called the KDP 00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:06.009 platform which is the back end and there it just 00:24:06.009 --> 00:24:08.970 had in really big red letters blocked and was 00:24:08.970 --> 00:24:12.890 like oh shit okay that's why it's banned and 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:15.650 then I found that email and then I went back 00:24:15.650 --> 00:24:17.009 to them and said can you just tell me what the 00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:20.950 content is and they have never told me what the 00:24:20.950 --> 00:24:24.430 content is to date they've not said specifically 00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:29.470 what triggered it i have a suspicion so my my 00:24:29.470 --> 00:24:32.529 books um the earlier books have not safe for 00:24:32.529 --> 00:24:36.029 work art in them um but it's covered not safe 00:24:36.029 --> 00:24:38.049 for work art in that it doesn't have boobs it 00:24:38.049 --> 00:24:40.869 doesn't have the naughty bit showing so it's 00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:44.410 naughty but it's not explicit naughty um i was 00:24:44.410 --> 00:24:46.710 a bit lazy with deprivation in that the artwork 00:24:46.710 --> 00:24:48.910 has her sitting on his lap and she's wearing 00:24:48.910 --> 00:24:52.549 this like see -through sexy outfit thing but 00:24:52.549 --> 00:24:56.160 you can see her nipples um And I think that is 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:57.880 one of the things that flagged because they were 00:24:57.880 --> 00:24:59.619 like, well, those nipples were not, that's a 00:24:59.619 --> 00:25:03.720 game over. So I replied back saying, if I remove 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.750 this art. will the book get passed and they basically 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:09.910 were like absolutely not um but then what happened 00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:12.289 is they then unblocked it for some reason no 00:25:12.289 --> 00:25:14.210 idea why they unblocked it it became available 00:25:14.210 --> 00:25:16.650 for everyone again for about a day and then they 00:25:16.650 --> 00:25:18.450 re -blocked it again and then they were acting 00:25:18.450 --> 00:25:20.289 like it was me that had unblocked it and I was 00:25:20.289 --> 00:25:22.750 like oh shit now I'm in big shit now because 00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:25.410 they're like this is inappropriate and I was 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:26.910 like mate I haven't done anything like this was 00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:31.930 you guys unblocking it um and I spoke to uh Do 00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:34.130 you guys, have you heard of Lauren Bill? She's 00:25:34.130 --> 00:25:37.950 a big US author. Yeah. I'm quite friendly with 00:25:37.950 --> 00:25:40.309 her. She's been like, she's so helpful for advice. 00:25:40.630 --> 00:25:42.670 So I message her all the time. And I messaged 00:25:42.670 --> 00:25:44.109 her when it happened and said like, oh shit, 00:25:44.150 --> 00:25:45.630 what do I do? Because she's had a whole load 00:25:45.630 --> 00:25:48.549 of banned books. And her advice was, do not fight 00:25:48.549 --> 00:25:50.390 the ban. She was like, absolutely do not fight 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:52.150 it. If you fight it, they will probably ban your 00:25:52.150 --> 00:25:54.369 entire account and you'll lose everything. And 00:25:54.369 --> 00:25:56.609 I was like, okay, fine. And there is a part of 00:25:56.609 --> 00:26:00.259 me that feels... like I think that one there 00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:01.819 is a place for these books and absolutely there 00:26:01.819 --> 00:26:04.079 should be a place but there is a part of me that 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.420 feels like I can understand why they've banned 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:09.980 the book so it would feel a little bit bad faith 00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:12.000 for me to go oh no why have you banned it because 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.619 actually the book is really fucking horrible 00:26:14.619 --> 00:26:17.299 like what happens in the book is horrible and 00:26:17.299 --> 00:26:20.039 if they feel it's inappropriate then I'm comfortable 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.900 with them making that decision but what I find 00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:27.299 frustrating at times is these books are regularly 00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:29.819 banned and actually what happens is you're silencing 00:26:29.819 --> 00:26:33.299 this whole genre and actually for a lot of people 00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:37.319 this genre is really important um but logistically 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:39.420 it was a flipping nightmare trying to get it 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:40.819 sorted because then obviously you have to find 00:26:40.819 --> 00:26:42.079 a different printer and then you're like well 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:43.980 how do I get the distribution and all of that 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:48.680 um yeah so that was a good learning curve yeah 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:50.279 because I was gonna I was gonna ask about that 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.240 because as an independent author kind of amazon 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.000 feels on the one hand relatively straightforward 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:57.119 way of getting your content out there because 00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:58.740 they will pick up a lot of that stuff for you 00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:02.759 but also you're kind of fighting a giant that 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:08.690 is exactly it it's for me amazon is both been 00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:11.109 the most incredible thing like in terms of an 00:27:11.109 --> 00:27:13.890 author journey kdp is the easiest platform to 00:27:13.890 --> 00:27:16.329 upload to the way they've done it is absolutely 00:27:16.329 --> 00:27:18.269 beautiful because you can upload your books and 00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:20.569 they bring up a proof and it's it's amazing because 00:27:20.569 --> 00:27:23.130 it's so easy when they have the the monopoly 00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:26.269 because of kindle unlimited um and it's been 00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:28.710 like it's made my career it's been amazing but 00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:31.539 the flip side is you're fighting and absolute 00:27:31.539 --> 00:27:34.980 giant and they hold all the cards so if they 00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:36.700 say we don't like this there's nothing you can 00:27:36.700 --> 00:27:39.599 do about it they set the the page reads for kindle 00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:43.500 unlimited um so february this year they dropped 00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.200 so we get paid i think it's like 0 .001 something 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.299 or other per page read it's absolutely like it's 00:27:50.909 --> 00:27:53.690 like not even pennies it's like points of pennies 00:27:53.690 --> 00:27:56.470 per page read and in February they set so every 00:27:56.470 --> 00:27:58.009 month they set the page reads in February they 00:27:58.009 --> 00:28:00.250 set the lowest page reads and I think it was 00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:02.730 like four years and then everyone's royalties 00:28:02.730 --> 00:28:04.589 like halved because you're like well shit like 00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:06.470 it's and they're still like obviously taking 00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:08.150 their cut but there's nothing we can do about 00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:10.250 it because they hold all the cards and you just 00:28:10.250 --> 00:28:11.769 got to deal with what you got to deal with haven't 00:28:11.769 --> 00:28:13.849 you you can't fight forever and you just got 00:28:13.849 --> 00:28:15.930 to work with the situation you're in basically 00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:19.519 yeah it's such a huge amount of power for a private 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:21.579 company to hold to essentially decide what is 00:28:21.579 --> 00:28:25.259 and isn't appropriate to publish um because different 00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:27.200 countries will have different laws about you 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:28.660 know some countries do restrict what you can 00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:31.740 publish and what you can't but those are decided 00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:34.619 over a period of time by a government that at 00:28:34.619 --> 00:28:36.279 least in theory is completely democratically 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:39.849 elected it's to an extent a reflection of the 00:28:39.849 --> 00:28:42.089 values of a society where a private company deciding 00:28:42.089 --> 00:28:44.650 this is inappropriate for people to read there 00:28:44.650 --> 00:28:47.430 is no there is no way that anyone can influence 00:28:47.430 --> 00:28:49.289 that they can just do it and they can just change 00:28:49.289 --> 00:28:51.130 their minds overnight which seems really scary 00:28:51.130 --> 00:28:52.849 particularly when they have almost a monopoly 00:28:52.849 --> 00:28:55.789 the way amazon do i think i think that's exactly 00:28:55.789 --> 00:28:57.390 it and when you look at the world in the way 00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.309 that it's going right now not to be political 00:28:59.309 --> 00:29:01.569 because i i try to stay away from politics because 00:29:01.569 --> 00:29:06.399 it's a horrible subject right now but um It's 00:29:06.399 --> 00:29:08.420 scary to think someone has that much power and 00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:10.440 actually if you had the wrong government in charge 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.039 and they made those decisions, they could censor 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.500 so much. Overnight they could flick a button 00:29:15.500 --> 00:29:18.259 and that's it. And what do you do to fight that? 00:29:18.299 --> 00:29:20.740 We as individuals would really struggle to fight 00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:24.339 that and it's very 1984 and it's quite scary 00:29:24.339 --> 00:29:27.380 when you think about what the power they have 00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:28.960 and the potential of what they could do with 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:32.240 it if they used it. positively or is they used 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.279 it negatively well that's depressing yeah yeah 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:38.779 so what did you do about that because people 00:29:38.779 --> 00:29:42.579 can buy deprivation So what I did, I was really 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:45.099 lucky in that I could pivot, set up an Etsy store 00:29:45.099 --> 00:29:48.140 very quickly because I had the digital file and 00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:50.900 Etsy is really good for selling digital things. 00:29:51.019 --> 00:29:52.839 I basically straight away put it up on there 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:55.839 so then people could download it and get it that 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.779 way, which was brilliant. I can't do that with 00:29:57.779 --> 00:29:59.759 my other books because they're in Kindle Unlimited 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.579 and that is a contract which means they have 00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:05.579 to be. on Kindle Unlimited only. But then what 00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:08.420 it meant is I had to source a publisher for the 00:30:08.420 --> 00:30:11.720 physical books. So at the moment I use BookVault. 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.119 who've been amazing and it's a really streamlined 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:17.779 process in terms of uploading the the documents 00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:20.759 getting a proof and then going yep this is great 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.259 and then I basically just order like 200 at a 00:30:23.259 --> 00:30:25.420 time they arrive at my house and then people 00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:29.019 buy it through Etsy and the complication I have 00:30:29.019 --> 00:30:33.119 is that I have quite a few stores in the US particularly 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.000 and Australia who buy from me and and I basically 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.140 they they basically order the books from me and 00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:42.490 then I ship them to their bookshop. But deprivation, 00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:45.410 because it doesn't sit within the Amazon platform, 00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:49.640 it is a fucking nightmare. and it shouldn't be 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:51.240 it should be really simple but right now it's 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:53.440 like i can't i can't ship that book to any bookshop 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.519 um and i think i've i was at them what's called 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.819 the self -publishing show last week um which 00:30:58.819 --> 00:31:01.700 if you're an aspiring author or you are an author 00:31:01.700 --> 00:31:04.640 oh my god it's amazing absolutely you have to 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.640 go it's i learned so much last week from it was 00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.119 amazing and and i found a solution last week 00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:12.660 to how to fix that which is fantastic but it's 00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:14.339 brilliant The problem is physical books weigh 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:16.880 a shit ton and I can't have them printed here 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.859 and then posted there and then with tariffs and 00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:21.680 it's, but it's all like little teething problems. 00:31:21.819 --> 00:31:27.819 And now I know for decimation. So I am looking 00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:30.519 at the way Amazon is managing decimation at the 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:32.599 moment in that you can't find it on Amazon. If 00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:34.160 you put it in there, it's disappeared. You have 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:36.480 to go to the series link. and then the whole 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:37.920 way down to find it. So they've basically hidden 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.720 it. So I am very aware that that book is almost 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.299 certainly going to get banned as soon as it comes 00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:44.319 out. There's also a couple of scenes in there 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:46.259 which probably mean it will get banned, which 00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:49.680 I've tried to hide in the trigger warnings because 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:51.200 I was like, if I write, so there's certain things 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:54.000 like if you, on Amazon, if you write, so there's 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:56.059 big no -no's that no one should write. So obviously 00:31:56.059 --> 00:31:58.720 children, that's disgusting. I don't write children 00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:01.539 in any capacity because for me, that's a massive 00:32:01.539 --> 00:32:03.650 trigger. Even if you're writing as a... a past 00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:07.349 experience i i don't write that at all um bestiality 00:32:07.349 --> 00:32:09.410 you can't write and then the other thing you 00:32:09.410 --> 00:32:13.930 can't write is uh necrophilia so not to give 00:32:13.930 --> 00:32:16.369 anything away on the final book but there's definitely 00:32:16.369 --> 00:32:21.089 definitely a flag for this but it's not i don't 00:32:21.089 --> 00:32:22.730 want to give away the scene but it technically 00:32:22.730 --> 00:32:27.039 is necrophilia um So I think the book is banned. 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:29.799 Well, it hasn't come out yet, but I think it 00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:32.279 will be banned. So what I'm doing already is 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:34.680 I've uploaded those files to BookVault. I am 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:39.039 already amassing my poor home. Basically, it's 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:40.539 lucky me and my partner, it's just us in the 00:32:40.539 --> 00:32:43.059 house and two dogs. We don't have kids. Could 00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:48.220 not handle. So this house just basically becomes 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:51.160 a store for my books and his tools and stuff 00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:54.200 for his job. And yeah, amassing books because 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:56.039 I'm like, I'm going to do a pre -order. So when 00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:59.109 people... with decimation because i i can see 00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:00.450 what's going to happen it's going to get banned 00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:02.369 almost immediately and then people will be like 00:33:02.369 --> 00:33:04.349 well how do i get this book so what i want to 00:33:04.349 --> 00:33:07.190 do is ship this book ahead of the release and 00:33:07.190 --> 00:33:08.970 be a little bit sneaky but like if you want to 00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:12.130 guarantee this book on the 21st of august i'll 00:33:12.130 --> 00:33:14.650 do a different pre -order and then i can ship 00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:18.549 it out so 21st of august either before that if 00:33:18.549 --> 00:33:21.410 you're UK or if you're US or Australia where 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:22.910 it takes a bit longer to ship I will have it 00:33:22.910 --> 00:33:26.170 to you at least on the 21st of August and do 00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:28.990 it that way just to kind of yeah but it's yeah 00:33:28.990 --> 00:33:31.950 it's all a bit of a learning curve yeah yeah 00:33:31.950 --> 00:33:34.789 it's all a yeah yeah kind of figure out what 00:33:34.789 --> 00:33:36.089 you do wrong the first time and make sure you 00:33:36.089 --> 00:33:38.650 do it right the second time yeah yeah that's 00:33:38.650 --> 00:33:40.990 fair and then they throw another curveball at 00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:46.769 you yeah for fuck's sake Did it have a, this 00:33:46.769 --> 00:33:48.390 is going to sound like a really strange question, 00:33:48.450 --> 00:33:50.769 did it have a positive impact? Because there's 00:33:50.769 --> 00:33:53.910 nothing like a banned book to get people interested. 00:33:54.210 --> 00:33:57.450 Yeah, it definitely, especially on TikTok. TikTok 00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:01.109 love a banned book. Something about crack cocaine 00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:05.769 or something. So I had all these people messaging, 00:34:05.890 --> 00:34:07.690 like, where can I get this book? Where can I 00:34:07.690 --> 00:34:09.369 get this book? And I was like, fucking hell, 00:34:09.389 --> 00:34:12.510 I'm trying. I do this thing where I get stressed, 00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:14.469 where I rip at my hair, and my hair was like 00:34:14.469 --> 00:34:17.510 this. And I was like, oh, my God, I have a state. 00:34:17.889 --> 00:34:20.469 And, yeah, it had a really positive effect. Obviously, 00:34:20.789 --> 00:34:22.849 it was incredibly stressful when it happened, 00:34:22.909 --> 00:34:26.269 but actually the knock -on effect is I've sold 00:34:26.269 --> 00:34:28.250 so much more. I think I've become a bigger name 00:34:28.250 --> 00:34:32.400 because it's been banned. Yeah. And people have 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.559 wanted to read the book purely because it's banned. 00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:38.059 Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely been a positive. 00:34:38.659 --> 00:34:40.840 Yeah. And then stuck around for the rest of the 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:44.440 series. Yeah. They're like, this is crazy. Let's 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:49.000 read the rest. Yeah. When Amazon bans a book, 00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.079 does it disappear from people's Kindles? Because 00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.039 I remember seeing some discussion about whether 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:55.730 that was happening or not. yeah officially it 00:34:55.730 --> 00:34:57.769 does i think a few people got lucky and it didn't 00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:01.030 um so what happens is when you buy a kindle file 00:35:01.030 --> 00:35:04.030 i didn't know this but when you buy like not 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:06.590 kindle unlimited but an actual like kindle book 00:35:06.590 --> 00:35:10.980 um you don't actually own that book you own I 00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:13.739 think it's like the right to read that book or 00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:16.199 something. It's really cleverly worded. So if 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:18.019 a book gets banned, they basically just remove 00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:19.619 that from your Kindle, even though you've paid 00:35:19.619 --> 00:35:22.500 for it. And I think a lot of people that had 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:24.940 bought that book didn't even get a refund, which 00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:27.559 for me was the thing that pissed me off the most. 00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:32.159 Yeah. Because there is like a limited time in 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.400 this world and we have a limited amount of money. 00:35:36.170 --> 00:35:37.969 you know if you don't get the book then you should 00:35:37.969 --> 00:35:40.309 at least get the what was it 4 .99 back to buy 00:35:40.309 --> 00:35:42.869 a different book like that's really unfair to 00:35:42.869 --> 00:35:45.909 take that money and not give the product um so 00:35:45.909 --> 00:35:48.449 what i have got a policy for decimation when 00:35:48.449 --> 00:35:51.409 it comes out is if someone has bought the kindle 00:35:51.409 --> 00:35:52.929 file and it does get banned and they lose it 00:35:52.929 --> 00:35:54.989 if they can show me proof of purchase i'm sending 00:35:54.989 --> 00:35:58.780 them a free book Because I'd rather do the right 00:35:58.780 --> 00:36:00.980 thing and make sure people have the end product 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:03.519 than screw people over, even though it wasn't 00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:05.760 me doing it. Do you know what I mean? For me, 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.019 conscious -wise, I'm all about doing the right 00:36:09.019 --> 00:36:13.840 thing for people. Yeah, so that was really unfair 00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.599 the way people... And there was this work around 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.860 where if you put your Kindle in airplane mode... 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:21.199 if it hadn't disappeared if you put your kindle 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:22.820 in airplane mode basically it couldn't connect 00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:24.519 to the server so then you could read the whole 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:27.059 thing and then as soon as you put out of airplane 00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:28.719 mode it would disappear but i was like this is 00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:30.699 a workaround guys like everyone put your kindle 00:36:30.699 --> 00:36:33.929 in airplane mode read the book And then obviously 00:36:33.929 --> 00:36:35.690 it disappears, but at least you've got your money's 00:36:35.690 --> 00:36:38.869 worth from it. So, yeah. Yeah, I was so relieved 00:36:38.869 --> 00:36:41.809 when that happened that I was an advanced reader 00:36:41.809 --> 00:36:45.309 for that one. So I had it. I was safe. But I 00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:46.949 saw loads of comments of people saying, is it 00:36:46.949 --> 00:36:48.769 going to disappear? And I was like, oh, God, 00:36:48.809 --> 00:36:52.590 I'm so glad that I've already got it. Yeah. it's 00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:54.710 just it's all the little things as well that 00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:56.710 add to it and it's really unfair as a reader 00:36:56.710 --> 00:36:58.809 and an end user to have that happen because it's 00:36:58.809 --> 00:37:00.909 not your fault if a book gets banned it's yeah 00:37:00.909 --> 00:37:03.210 you know you've bought a product you deserve 00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:06.710 the product so yeah and it's again that having 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:10.019 so much power with a private company like it 00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:11.739 just feels like such a common sense thing that 00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:13.099 if they're going to withdraw it from people's 00:37:13.099 --> 00:37:14.900 kindles they should be refunding them but obviously 00:37:14.900 --> 00:37:16.519 they're not going to do that if if they're not 00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:17.920 forced to because they get to keep their money 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:20.980 so yeah i think a few people challenged and they 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:22.960 got their money back but i think if people didn't 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.699 know to challenge but it's it's unfair that you 00:37:25.699 --> 00:37:27.619 should have to again take that step and it's 00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:29.920 not just an automatic okay here you go refund 00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:34.380 yeah i think you've probably touched on a few 00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:36.400 things i suppose but kind of thinking about other 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.940 people who are well either getting into writing 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:40.980 or already kind of established authors is there 00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:43.119 any advice that you would give for dealing with 00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.219 the things that we've talked about that response 00:37:45.219 --> 00:37:48.500 that you get from the public dealing with amazon 00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:51.840 and things like that i think the biggest thing 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.679 and it's it's something you have to learn is 00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.420 how to have the thick skin and how not let stuff 00:37:56.420 --> 00:37:59.079 affect you and i can sit here now and say this 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.960 to you and then go cry in the corner so it's 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.320 i think it's and it affects a different point 00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:09.699 so like right now I'm in I'm in a really horrible 00:38:09.699 --> 00:38:12.780 emotional space because my beautiful dog bless 00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:17.239 him died in March and I still I don't know I've 00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:19.300 never been affected like this sounds awful like 00:38:19.300 --> 00:38:21.599 this before like I've never lost someone before 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.059 this is my first real experience of grief and 00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:26.960 it is like it's nuts the way I'm just constantly 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.699 crying and I'm not a crier um so I think there's 00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:32.199 certain moments You have to be kind to yourself 00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:33.760 and you have to realise there are times when 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:35.480 you can laugh it all off and be like, ha ha, 00:38:35.539 --> 00:38:37.840 this is really funny. And there are times where 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.940 just one message is enough to make you go into 00:38:39.940 --> 00:38:43.579 an absolute spiral. And I think sometimes it's 00:38:43.579 --> 00:38:45.860 also important to sit there and kind of think, 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:48.420 well, why is this affecting me like this? Like, 00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:51.960 why is this one message really? And recognising 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:56.659 writing can be incredibly lonely and it can be 00:38:56.659 --> 00:39:00.880 emotionally very draining. and it's a case of 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.820 um just making sure you protect yourself and 00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:06.460 your mental health and I read this beautiful 00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:08.440 thing where it was like make yourself fall in 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.809 love with the life you have And I was like, I 00:39:10.809 --> 00:39:12.730 really like that because I went through some 00:39:12.730 --> 00:39:14.750 horrible medical stuff a few years ago and was 00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:16.869 in a really shit place because of that. And I 00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:19.550 was like, God, my life is really shit. And I 00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:21.949 was so lucky the NHS was there and helped me 00:39:21.949 --> 00:39:23.610 and I had my surgery and everything has been 00:39:23.610 --> 00:39:25.909 great since. I'm in such a great place now. I'm 00:39:25.909 --> 00:39:28.570 pain free. I've got all this positivity going 00:39:28.570 --> 00:39:31.010 in my life. So, yeah, if I want a little cake, 00:39:31.170 --> 00:39:32.809 then I'm going to have that because that's the, 00:39:32.949 --> 00:39:34.550 do you know what I mean? And it is about falling 00:39:34.550 --> 00:39:36.349 in love with the life you have and looking at 00:39:36.349 --> 00:39:39.260 what you've got with gratitude and being... that 00:39:39.260 --> 00:39:41.000 sounds really cheesy but being grateful for what 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.659 you have but also there is a huge thing about 00:39:44.659 --> 00:39:48.760 protecting your space so um i am a closet people 00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:51.500 pleaser because of the way i was sadly brought 00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:53.800 up and went through shit and that my theory is 00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:55.320 if i'm really nice to someone then might not 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:58.039 hurt me so much which is something that i'm trying 00:39:58.039 --> 00:39:59.940 to reteach myself out of because that's not a 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:04.159 healthy healthy way to live um but also i think 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:08.230 a lot of authors um they try and help other authors 00:40:08.230 --> 00:40:10.349 they try and and sometimes there's an element 00:40:10.349 --> 00:40:12.650 of you're spreading yourself too thin and you 00:40:12.650 --> 00:40:16.210 need to make yourself the priority um and this 00:40:16.210 --> 00:40:19.469 year i've been which i kind of hate because i 00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:21.190 don't i've got so many author friends and they're 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:22.989 amazing i want to help and support them as much 00:40:22.989 --> 00:40:25.869 as i can but also i've recognized that i am spreading 00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:27.690 myself too thin with other people and i need 00:40:27.690 --> 00:40:31.449 to pull myself back And also, there is always 00:40:31.449 --> 00:40:35.690 drama on BookTok. You go on Friends and there 00:40:35.690 --> 00:40:37.389 is always someone kicking off about something 00:40:37.389 --> 00:40:39.369 that someone's done and it's wild. And then on 00:40:39.369 --> 00:40:42.289 BookTok, there's always, and the secret is not 00:40:42.289 --> 00:40:44.590 to get involved. So I've got this new phrase, 00:40:44.650 --> 00:40:47.110 which is, everyone's probably heard of Not My 00:40:47.110 --> 00:40:49.429 Circus, Not My Monkeys. Yeah, we both like that 00:40:49.429 --> 00:40:51.739 one. Yeah, and you know when you're like halfway 00:40:51.739 --> 00:40:53.420 through typing and you're like, what the fuck 00:40:53.420 --> 00:40:55.440 am I doing here? Like, no one cares about my 00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:58.139 opinion. Delete this. Come out of it. Don't get 00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:00.800 involved. And that's been a retraining of my 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.340 headspace to be like, stop picking every fight. 00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:06.539 Like, not every fight is for you. And I think 00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:09.400 there's so many of us that become, what's the 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:12.000 word? Keyboard warriors. And, you know, whether 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.420 you're not necessarily being a troll, you're 00:41:14.420 --> 00:41:16.039 just like, actually, I want to defend this person. 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:17.500 I want to, you know, this situation's awful. 00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.750 I want to say something. But actually... what 00:41:19.750 --> 00:41:21.690 are you getting back from that because all you're 00:41:21.690 --> 00:41:23.150 doing is giving energy and then someone else 00:41:23.150 --> 00:41:24.750 is going to come and start arguing with you and 00:41:24.750 --> 00:41:27.530 then you're escalating something when actually 00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:34.869 yeah yeah it's wild the world is wild yeah we 00:41:34.869 --> 00:41:36.869 say that to each other quite a lot don't we well 00:41:36.869 --> 00:41:39.610 i say it to you quite a lot with the frustrations 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:42.429 you have at work it's like this is not your circus 00:41:42.429 --> 00:41:45.590 those are not your monkeys yeah it's just a job 00:41:46.429 --> 00:41:48.989 i sometimes struggle to internalize it i tend 00:41:48.989 --> 00:41:50.869 to make the monkeys my monkeys that's my problem 00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:54.929 oh yeah i get i get that a lot it's nice once 00:41:54.929 --> 00:41:56.429 you kind of get to the point where you're like 00:41:56.429 --> 00:41:59.309 fuck it not just fuck it and that's a really 00:41:59.309 --> 00:42:01.650 nice headspace to get into but it's it's hard 00:42:01.650 --> 00:42:03.989 to get into that headspace so how long of wow 00:42:03.989 --> 00:42:05.510 this is a bit of a stupid question i was gonna 00:42:05.510 --> 00:42:07.829 ask you how long have you been reading like what 00:42:07.829 --> 00:42:10.690 the fuck was that even as a question reading 00:42:10.690 --> 00:42:12.949 like forever but reading these kind of books 00:42:12.949 --> 00:42:15.630 not as not as long as a lot of people I think 00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:19.150 I I used to have a lot of shame around being 00:42:19.150 --> 00:42:21.070 interested in in reading that kind of thing and 00:42:21.070 --> 00:42:22.590 a lot of shame around like the kinks that I have 00:42:22.590 --> 00:42:25.329 as well so that took me a long time to get over 00:42:25.329 --> 00:42:27.650 started exploring kink in my 30s but the shame 00:42:27.650 --> 00:42:30.050 about reading dark stuff persisted for longer 00:42:30.050 --> 00:42:32.929 um so probably about about three years ago started 00:42:32.929 --> 00:42:36.239 reading dark romance and always had the thing 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:37.559 of finishing a book being like that was good 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:39.039 but it could be darker that could be good but 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:40.860 it could be darker and deviant was actually the 00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:43.000 one that i found i was like no this this is what 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.119 i'm looking for and then i discovered like miranda 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:47.300 grant and lauren beale as well and various others 00:42:47.300 --> 00:42:49.860 and have found like now now i know to search 00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:51.719 for either pitch black or erotic horror i know 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:53.159 how to find the stuff that is actually what i'm 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:56.159 looking for yeah this is how i felt reading like 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.019 when i first started i was in my teens i was 00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:00.880 reading this shit that was definitely not appropriate 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.219 for a teenager but i was like this is what i'm 00:43:03.219 --> 00:43:06.090 going through and it's good to read it but it 00:43:06.090 --> 00:43:08.809 wasn't delving enough if that makes sense like 00:43:08.809 --> 00:43:11.469 it wasn't getting into it felt like it was too 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:14.630 brushing over what was happening it was it wasn't 00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:17.389 getting into the emotional enough um and yeah 00:43:17.389 --> 00:43:20.269 when i found dark romance as it is now so like 00:43:20.269 --> 00:43:22.070 haunting adeline and all those kind of books 00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:24.710 i was like yeah fucking hell finally like there 00:43:24.710 --> 00:43:26.670 is you know this is more mainstream because it 00:43:26.670 --> 00:43:29.690 felt like a dirty word and it felt like if you're 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:32.840 writing this stuff it felt like there was something 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:34.260 wrong with you and if you're reading it then 00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:35.519 there was something wrong with you and it was 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.539 this horrible taboo and now thankfully it feels 00:43:38.539 --> 00:43:42.119 like it's not so much of a taboo and it's people 00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:43.840 are starting to understand why there is a need 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:47.599 for it it's yeah I hate that you felt shame about 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:51.079 it though because it's unfair it's it's shit 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:53.039 it's really fucking shit got there in the end 00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:55.940 though I think like The thing that has taken 00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:57.880 me a while is like telling people what I read. 00:43:57.920 --> 00:43:59.579 That feels way more personal than telling people 00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:02.659 what I do. I've been talking about my kink life 00:44:02.659 --> 00:44:05.159 on the internet for about four years. But up 00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.320 until maybe three months ago, if people asked 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:08.860 me for recommendations of the kind of stuff I 00:44:08.860 --> 00:44:10.300 read, I'm like, no, no, I'm not telling you that. 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:13.019 That's a secret. So doing this episode is great 00:44:13.019 --> 00:44:14.840 exposure therapy for me because everyone's going 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:17.139 to know at least one series that I've read. Yeah. 00:44:18.139 --> 00:44:21.860 I don't tell people what I write. Most people 00:44:21.860 --> 00:44:23.760 who know that I write think I write meals and 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:28.119 boons. But this is kind of where I struggle with 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.820 people I know reading my stuff, because I feel 00:44:30.820 --> 00:44:33.400 that shame that you were saying, that's the same. 00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.280 And it's unfair that we should feel that shame. 00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:39.639 But at the same time, it's, yeah, it's weird, 00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:41.420 isn't it? Because it's like, I'm proud of what 00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:43.119 I've achieved. I'm proud of what I've written. 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:47.159 you know there is a need for these books so why 00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.360 do I and like at SBS last week when people were 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.460 like oh what do you write I went oh I write and 00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:55.820 I'm like why am I cringing like I'm proud of 00:44:55.820 --> 00:44:57.699 what I fucking do I go on TikTok every day I 00:44:57.699 --> 00:45:01.579 show my face so why why do I have this kind of 00:45:01.579 --> 00:45:05.559 like oh and I don't know I need there's some 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:08.960 therapy i clearly still need in my own shame 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.440 is so pervasive and you can't just logic your 00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:14.539 way out of it i i sort of deal with it by kind 00:45:14.539 --> 00:45:16.699 of forcing myself to tell people things because 00:45:16.699 --> 00:45:18.440 once i've done it that always takes some of the 00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:20.780 power out of it but that doesn't always make 00:45:20.780 --> 00:45:23.199 it easy it's it's very much a process and i think 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.340 there's something about like what you write what 00:45:25.340 --> 00:45:27.940 you read what you fantasize about things like 00:45:27.940 --> 00:45:31.619 that are so intensely personal not just not just 00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:33.440 this kind of stuff like even just reading like 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.889 a you know a kind of standard novel the things 00:45:36.889 --> 00:45:39.130 that make you feel something and make you want 00:45:39.130 --> 00:45:41.289 to read them tells people something about you 00:45:41.289 --> 00:45:44.429 and i think that's that's sometimes challenging 00:45:44.429 --> 00:45:48.389 to share i think that's exactly it yeah one of 00:45:48.389 --> 00:45:50.789 the things that i imagine draws a lot of people 00:45:50.789 --> 00:45:52.469 to your books and certainly drew me to your books 00:45:52.469 --> 00:45:56.630 was um having a safe space to explore those kind 00:45:56.630 --> 00:45:58.469 of ideas where no one gets hurt and there's no 00:45:58.469 --> 00:46:01.730 consequence is that something that that you would 00:46:01.730 --> 00:46:03.969 say is kind of the The draw for most of your 00:46:03.969 --> 00:46:06.869 readers, is that what it's about? Yeah, absolutely. 00:46:06.949 --> 00:46:09.809 I think for me, when I first started as a reader, 00:46:09.929 --> 00:46:13.630 I could almost process what I had gone through 00:46:13.630 --> 00:46:17.329 in a way that I could walk away. If it got too 00:46:17.329 --> 00:46:19.909 much, I can throw the book. I can, do you know 00:46:19.909 --> 00:46:21.690 what I mean? I can shut the book. I can throw 00:46:21.690 --> 00:46:23.230 the book. I can burn the book if I want to, if 00:46:23.230 --> 00:46:26.769 it's too much. But I'm not, I'm also processing 00:46:26.769 --> 00:46:31.119 what I went through with my books. I think for 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:34.840 a lot of people, there's a curiosity maybe about 00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:36.820 some of the scenes because obviously no one hopefully 00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:39.000 is ever going to get attacked with a taxidermy 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.539 dick. So that's kind of like, oh, okay, that's 00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:45.199 morbid curiosity, if you will. But I think for 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.659 a lot of it, it is a type of therapy, reading 00:46:49.659 --> 00:46:51.559 these books and going, actually, maybe I didn't 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.159 experience all of this, but I experienced certain 00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:58.960 moments of this. And actually... there is I think 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.260 it is that safe space around it um and for me 00:47:02.260 --> 00:47:05.599 writing it when I first started writing it I 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:08.199 wrote so many stories that I haven't published 00:47:08.199 --> 00:47:09.860 so many little scenes I was like I'm just going 00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:13.059 to write this horrible horrible scene down and 00:47:13.059 --> 00:47:15.610 it was cathartic for me to kind of get all this 00:47:15.610 --> 00:47:19.010 shit in my head out and onto paper. And I think 00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:21.349 for me, it felt at first like this is my safe 00:47:21.349 --> 00:47:23.230 space. No one's seeing these words. No, I'm never 00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:24.849 going to publish that shit. But at the same time, 00:47:24.889 --> 00:47:27.050 I need to get all of this crap out of my head 00:47:27.050 --> 00:47:32.190 and down. And like a therapist told me, you know, 00:47:32.190 --> 00:47:34.750 read these books. They literally did say read 00:47:34.750 --> 00:47:37.250 these kind of books because for some people it 00:47:37.250 --> 00:47:38.710 works, some people it doesn't. And if someone 00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:40.650 tries to read it and finds it triggering, absolutely, 00:47:40.809 --> 00:47:42.550 it's not working for you. Don't do it. But for 00:47:42.550 --> 00:47:44.760 some people, they will find it. It does work. 00:47:44.780 --> 00:47:47.280 It does provide that safe space for them to process 00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.199 and heal, which is really what these books are 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:51.760 about. I mean, they're fucking horrible, but 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.539 at the same time, there's a need for them in 00:47:54.539 --> 00:47:56.699 terms of people's experiences and what we've 00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:59.239 gone through and trying to get over what we've 00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:02.599 gone through. Yeah. Do you find there's a lot 00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:04.719 of crossover between people who read your books 00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.440 and people who engage in kinks like CNC, for 00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:10.480 example, where they are, again, sort of reliving 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.309 or experiencing things in a way, but... in a 00:48:13.309 --> 00:48:16.670 way that is controlled. Yeah, absolutely. I think 00:48:16.670 --> 00:48:18.909 C &C is one of these things that's really misunderstood 00:48:18.909 --> 00:48:21.289 for a lot of people because if they've not gone 00:48:21.289 --> 00:48:23.150 through that trauma, they're like, either they're 00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:24.829 like, oh yeah, it's really fun and really sexy. 00:48:25.030 --> 00:48:27.010 And it's like, well, it can be, yeah. When it's 00:48:27.010 --> 00:48:28.909 done right, like the key thing is the C. I think 00:48:28.909 --> 00:48:32.989 a lot of people have curiosity around C &C. I 00:48:32.989 --> 00:48:34.710 think like you've got books where they've got 00:48:34.710 --> 00:48:36.349 it and they've shown it in a way that's quite 00:48:36.349 --> 00:48:38.789 fun and quite playful. And then you've got books, 00:48:38.809 --> 00:48:41.010 like one book that I wrote, Reckoning, where 00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:45.190 it's consent, non -consent. But it is very close 00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:48.449 to non -consent because that's how she's processing 00:48:48.449 --> 00:48:50.389 her trauma. That's what she needs. That's how 00:48:50.389 --> 00:48:53.730 they heal together, the MMC and the FMC. I love 00:48:53.730 --> 00:48:56.610 that one, by the way. So good. That book for 00:48:56.610 --> 00:48:59.969 me was healing. Like I felt really that book 00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:02.210 holds such a special place. And then when I published 00:49:02.210 --> 00:49:03.409 it, I was really worried everyone would hate 00:49:03.409 --> 00:49:06.050 it. And the reaction really helped me as well 00:49:06.050 --> 00:49:08.369 because I felt like it put so much of me into 00:49:08.369 --> 00:49:11.110 it. But I think CNC is one of those things where 00:49:11.110 --> 00:49:14.519 it really is. a crossover for people because 00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.239 you've got the people that are curious about 00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:20.579 kink and that one it's a really interesting kink 00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:22.500 to read about and then you've got the people 00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:24.760 that feel that shame and they're like oh no this 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.780 feels but it's it's not it's not NC it's not 00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:30.280 non -con therefore it's okay to read this and 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:33.480 it's kind of I feel like it's almost to use the 00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:35.460 wrong word a gateway drug and people read it 00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:37.099 and they kind of do you know what I mean like 00:49:37.099 --> 00:49:40.050 it opens their mind and I go okay actually I'm 00:49:40.050 --> 00:49:41.829 really curious about this. Now I'm going to start 00:49:41.829 --> 00:49:43.590 reading more about this stuff because I read 00:49:43.590 --> 00:49:45.710 that and it felt okay to read that. And I was 00:49:45.710 --> 00:49:47.269 comfortable reading that. Therefore, I'm going 00:49:47.269 --> 00:49:51.530 to try and explore more. Yeah, I think CNC particularly 00:49:51.530 --> 00:49:54.989 is one of those ones that is, it's a really powerful, 00:49:55.010 --> 00:49:56.730 when it's written right, it's really powerful. 00:49:57.010 --> 00:49:59.269 Yeah, I find for me personally, there's a lot 00:49:59.269 --> 00:50:02.269 of crossover between reading sort of really dark 00:50:02.269 --> 00:50:05.530 fiction with a lot of non -consent in it. And 00:50:05.530 --> 00:50:09.539 CNC is something that I do within our... relationship 00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:13.500 and in previous relationships as both a way of 00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:15.760 sort of eroticizing dark feelings and having 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:18.800 like that makes it feel safer but also is just 00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:20.820 a cathartic release it doesn't always i think 00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:22.519 people always think it's just about it being 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.380 a turn -on and it can be but it it doesn't have 00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:27.139 to just be that it can meet so many different 00:50:27.139 --> 00:50:29.239 needs and i feel like dark fiction does does 00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:32.340 the same thing yeah i think i think particularly 00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:35.000 if you've been through a really horrible traumatic 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.789 experience If you're with a partner that you 00:50:37.789 --> 00:50:39.710 feel safe and you've had that conversation and 00:50:39.710 --> 00:50:44.329 your role play in CNC, I think it can be incredibly 00:50:44.329 --> 00:50:47.989 empowering, actually, to know that at any moment 00:50:47.989 --> 00:50:50.909 you can say stop. Do you know what I mean? You've 00:50:50.909 --> 00:50:54.710 got that power. And I think it's really healing 00:50:54.710 --> 00:50:56.329 when it's done right. I think it can be really, 00:50:56.369 --> 00:51:00.030 really healing. Yeah. Having a safe space to 00:51:00.030 --> 00:51:03.309 be a mess for a bit is such a powerful part of 00:51:03.309 --> 00:51:06.880 that. Yeah. Do you think... People being able 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:09.260 to not just read this stuff, but know that there 00:51:09.260 --> 00:51:11.159 are people out there writing it and enough other 00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:12.860 people out there reading it, that there's a market 00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:15.239 for it, helps with the shame as well. It helps 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:16.760 people feel less alone with those kind of thoughts. 00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:19.380 I think it definitely does. I think that's partly 00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:21.679 why there's been such an explosion in dark romance 00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:23.900 over the last... I mean, obviously, it's coincided 00:51:23.900 --> 00:51:26.099 with TikTok getting so big, but dark romance 00:51:26.099 --> 00:51:28.219 has got huge. You've got all these famous books 00:51:28.219 --> 00:51:31.119 with particularly dark scenes going on. And then, 00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:32.840 obviously, Pitch Black and Horror at Watakura 00:51:32.840 --> 00:51:35.809 has come along. And I think... It's really helped 00:51:35.809 --> 00:51:38.389 people deal with the shame because if it's just 00:51:38.389 --> 00:51:41.730 you in your home and you feel like this is me, 00:51:41.789 --> 00:51:44.469 I'm a weirdo, then all those internalised shame 00:51:44.469 --> 00:51:46.329 come. But if you're reading about it and it's 00:51:46.329 --> 00:51:48.969 normalised, then you think, you realise that 00:51:48.969 --> 00:51:51.110 you're not a weirdo. There's nothing wrong with 00:51:51.110 --> 00:51:53.750 you. There is a spectrum and some people are 00:51:53.750 --> 00:51:56.690 completely vanilla. Some people are... completely 00:51:56.690 --> 00:51:58.630 the other side and actually it's just finding 00:51:58.630 --> 00:52:00.349 your place and where you're comfortable and what 00:52:00.349 --> 00:52:02.570 works for you and what doesn't work for you and 00:52:02.570 --> 00:52:06.250 I think it has really really helped reduce that 00:52:06.250 --> 00:52:09.329 level of shame and I think it's it's it's brought 00:52:09.329 --> 00:52:11.329 it out into the open where people can have those 00:52:11.329 --> 00:52:13.130 conversations with their partners in a way that 00:52:13.839 --> 00:52:15.480 maybe before they wouldn't and they would have 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:17.260 just suppressed that part of themselves and gone 00:52:17.260 --> 00:52:20.500 okay it's fine i'm just going to be normal um 00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:22.960 in inverted commas whatever that is do you know 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:24.380 what i mean i'm going to play this part and i'm 00:52:24.380 --> 00:52:25.900 going to repress this part of myself and be this 00:52:25.900 --> 00:52:27.400 person and feel like there is a part of them 00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:31.639 that actually doesn't um reflect who they are 00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:34.119 and they can't be themselves fully and i think 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:37.239 dark romance has really really helped break down 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:38.980 that shame and i think it's really empowering 00:52:38.980 --> 00:52:41.059 particularly for women to be able to feel they 00:52:41.059 --> 00:52:43.769 can be exactly who they are sexually And that 00:52:43.769 --> 00:52:46.750 it's okay to be sexually whoever they are. And 00:52:46.750 --> 00:52:49.550 that actually you shouldn't just have to be missionary 00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:51.710 or whatever it is. You can be, you know, if you're 00:52:51.710 --> 00:52:54.010 into certain kinks, then you should vocalize 00:52:54.010 --> 00:52:55.530 those kinks and have that healthy conversation 00:52:55.530 --> 00:52:58.869 with your partner. And yeah, be who you want 00:52:58.869 --> 00:53:02.489 to be. Yeah. Do you think a lot of people use 00:53:02.489 --> 00:53:04.389 these kind of books as a jumping off point to 00:53:04.389 --> 00:53:06.389 talk to partners about things they want? And 00:53:06.389 --> 00:53:10.360 yeah. Yeah. i can see you smiling yeah yeah because 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:12.539 i i'm on quite a few facebook groups and i try 00:53:12.539 --> 00:53:15.519 not to comment on like um like the facebook uh 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:17.820 like dark romance groups and stuff like reader 00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:19.219 groups and i try not to comment too much because 00:53:19.219 --> 00:53:21.039 in my opinion it's a reader space so i don't 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.840 really want to uh come in there and be like oh 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:26.239 hi i'm an author um but i see people all the 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:29.340 time saying um can you wreck a book that's got 00:53:29.340 --> 00:53:32.980 this and this in it me and my partner want to 00:53:32.980 --> 00:53:35.239 try this or I want to show my partner what this 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.400 is and then you get all these other girls that 00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:39.860 are like saying oh not necessarily girls now 00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:41.559 which is lovely you get all these people because 00:53:41.559 --> 00:53:44.800 it used to be primarily a female genre and now 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:46.840 you see so many more men reading it which is 00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:49.699 really great to see actually it's not just a 00:53:49.699 --> 00:53:52.239 female thing um but yeah you see all these people 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.980 commenting and saying oh yeah I use this book 00:53:54.980 --> 00:53:56.800 and me and my partner tried this with this book 00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:59.880 and it's like yes this is exactly like obviously 00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:04.260 in books It's fictionalised. It isn't necessarily 00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:06.199 as researched as well. You're not seeing some 00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:08.420 of the more boring side of it. But at the same 00:54:08.420 --> 00:54:11.039 time, if someone can read a scene and think, 00:54:11.179 --> 00:54:13.860 wow, that's really sexy, I want to play this 00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:16.099 with my partner, and then go talk to their partner 00:54:16.099 --> 00:54:17.639 and their partner's going, yeah, you're right, 00:54:17.659 --> 00:54:20.579 actually, I can do this with you. I think it's 00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:24.039 a great way to try it and test it in a safe way 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:25.739 that they know exactly what the boundary is because 00:54:25.739 --> 00:54:28.260 they're just doing that one scene. And I think 00:54:28.260 --> 00:54:30.670 it's... I think it's a really good way for them 00:54:30.670 --> 00:54:33.409 to access and, yeah, try different kinks and 00:54:33.409 --> 00:54:36.010 try things that they're curious about in a safe 00:54:36.010 --> 00:54:39.329 space. Yeah, I've definitely had a few kink -unlocked 00:54:39.329 --> 00:54:41.170 moments reading books, and it's good to know 00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:44.489 it's not just me. Yeah, I've also had a few trigger 00:54:44.489 --> 00:54:45.889 -unlocked, so I was like, I would never have 00:54:45.889 --> 00:54:48.510 said that was a trigger, but OK. But, yeah, you 00:54:48.510 --> 00:54:49.650 know, when you read something, you're like, why 00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:51.610 is this really hot? And you're like, oh, oh, 00:54:51.630 --> 00:54:55.030 OK. I would never have pegged me down for interested 00:54:55.030 --> 00:54:58.900 in that, but that's OK, OK. So, yeah. And then, 00:54:58.900 --> 00:55:00.679 bless my partner, he doesn't really read. So 00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:03.679 I'm always like, for fuck's sake. He's going 00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:06.300 to read. I've tapped the bits. Just please go 00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:08.119 and read that bit and then come back to me in 00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:11.920 half an hour. Yeah, I just info dump on you after 00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:13.699 I read something particularly spicy, don't I? 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:18.699 Yeah, yeah. You do. You do. Yeah. And I usually 00:55:18.699 --> 00:55:22.159 have that kind of initially horrified face of 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.440 going, oh my God, what have I just heard? And 00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:26.199 then start to think about it and be like, hmm. 00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:30.420 hmm how can we that's that that's become interesting 00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:33.440 yeah like what's like the safer more consensual 00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:36.099 version of that that doesn't hospitalize anyone 00:55:36.099 --> 00:55:42.440 let's yeah yeah yeah can we take this remove 00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:45.480 the dangerous bits and then yeah exactly yeah 00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:50.599 yeah You come along like the feral gremlin with 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:52.239 all the ideas and I'm the one going, right, so 00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:53.800 how do we do this in a way that keeps you out 00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:57.079 of hospital and me out of jail? You're the project 00:55:57.079 --> 00:56:00.039 manager. Yeah. That's what you are. You're the 00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:01.840 creative director. You're the project manager. 00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:05.699 Yes. Okay, let's teamwork. You know what? I love 00:56:05.699 --> 00:56:08.139 that. I'm stealing that to drive us into future. 00:56:10.539 --> 00:56:14.699 One of the things that we sometimes do. uh on 00:56:14.699 --> 00:56:17.480 our podcast is that we will review a film we'll 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:20.619 watch a kinky film or a kink coded film and then 00:56:20.619 --> 00:56:22.280 we'll do a bit of a review of it and one of the 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:24.679 things that we keep coming back to is about how 00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:29.699 kink is represented in media um so i suppose 00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:31.000 just kind of picking up on what we were talking 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.559 about before kind of really interested in in 00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:35.639 kind of your take on that and what kind of research 00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:40.579 you do when you're developing your books so i 00:56:41.630 --> 00:56:43.469 I have a bit of a love -hate relationship with 00:56:43.469 --> 00:56:46.809 how kink is shown in media. Generally in books, 00:56:46.989 --> 00:56:50.590 it's shown really well, is what I'd say. I think 00:56:50.590 --> 00:56:54.329 some books or some movies like Fifty Shades of 00:56:54.329 --> 00:56:59.389 Grey, less well. But I think it's done in a way 00:56:59.389 --> 00:57:02.989 that is sensationalised because it's to make 00:57:02.989 --> 00:57:07.710 money. For me, I'm all about research. Like, 00:57:07.710 --> 00:57:11.650 I'm a massive... massive geek part I will research 00:57:11.650 --> 00:57:13.630 the hell out of something and know all the useless 00:57:13.630 --> 00:57:15.570 like my brain just seems to love useless facts 00:57:15.570 --> 00:57:17.789 and I will learn even if it's not relevant to 00:57:17.789 --> 00:57:19.510 the story anymore like oh I'm not gonna write 00:57:19.510 --> 00:57:22.570 about that I still want to know all the research 00:57:22.570 --> 00:57:24.489 how exactly it works because what I'd hate to 00:57:24.489 --> 00:57:28.030 do and what I have done in the past is I've written 00:57:28.030 --> 00:57:29.989 a book that was completely incorrect complete 00:57:29.989 --> 00:57:33.690 bullshit and then people that actually were in 00:57:33.690 --> 00:57:35.670 the BDSM lifestyle were like this is fucking 00:57:35.670 --> 00:57:39.039 bullshit and I was like oh and I So that series, 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:40.539 my first series I published, it was called the 00:57:40.539 --> 00:57:42.320 Blackwater series and I've unpublished it because 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.659 it basically was like, oh, I can do a 50 Shades 00:57:44.659 --> 00:57:47.900 of Grey, did fuck all research, wrote this absolutely 00:57:47.900 --> 00:57:50.239 diabolical series and was like, oh, isn't this 00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:52.280 fun? Ha ha. And then people were like, the fuck 00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:55.119 is this? And I was like, yeah, you're right. 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:58.440 This is complete fucking horseshit. So I unpublished 00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:02.000 it because for me, it's really important. It's 00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:04.039 really important to do it right. Like I get you're 00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:06.059 not going to write in a fictional book everything 00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:07.679 that happens in kink. You're not going to write 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:09.900 about all those conversations that need to happen. 00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:12.199 You're not going to write maybe about all the 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:14.360 consent and all that stuff. because it's maybe 00:58:14.360 --> 00:58:16.840 not as glamorous or as sexy in the book and you've 00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:18.940 got so much of a word count that you want to 00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:21.059 keep the story moving. But at the same time, 00:58:21.079 --> 00:58:23.599 you need to write it in a way that doesn't sensationalise 00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:26.300 the parts that aren't healthy. BDSM community 00:58:26.300 --> 00:58:29.800 is, from my understanding, so I'm not part of 00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:34.219 a BDSM community. I've definitely got some kinks. 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:37.860 Because of my past trauma, it's hard to work 00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:39.539 through a lot of all of the shit. that I have 00:58:39.539 --> 00:58:41.480 and figure out if that's actually a kink or what 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:45.800 the fuck that is um so I try not to label what 00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:48.000 I am or any do you know what I mean it's kind 00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:52.000 of yeah um yeah and but for me it's very important 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.860 to to show in books what is realistic and what 00:58:55.860 --> 00:58:59.179 is genuine and obviously when you're writing 00:58:59.179 --> 00:59:02.500 things like non -con non -con is very different 00:59:02.500 --> 00:59:06.500 to to cnc they are different things and i think 00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:08.659 it's really important as an author to do your 00:59:08.659 --> 00:59:11.119 research and represent in the same way that you 00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:13.480 wouldn't want to write a stereotypical character 00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:17.199 from like a stereotypical russian okay they eat 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:19.059 water and they drink vodka do you know what i 00:59:19.059 --> 00:59:20.420 mean like you would have write a character like 00:59:20.420 --> 00:59:22.739 that because it's so stereotypical bullshit in 00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:24.699 the same way and be the sm community you don't 00:59:24.699 --> 00:59:26.440 want to stick to stereotypes you want to make 00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:29.980 it genuine you want to do your research um I 00:59:29.980 --> 00:59:32.099 do struggle when I read other people's books 00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:33.639 and I feel like they haven't done their research 00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:36.019 or they're kind of not representing it in the 00:59:36.019 --> 00:59:38.579 same way. And I'm very like, I'm just going to 00:59:38.579 --> 00:59:40.280 DNF them because I feel like if they haven't 00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:43.440 done their research, unless the story is really, 00:59:43.539 --> 00:59:45.639 really good and compelling for me, that breaks 00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:50.340 the spell. So I feel like part of the telling 00:59:50.340 --> 00:59:52.000 a good story is knowing all your background. 00:59:52.380 --> 00:59:55.039 So like The Brethren, I've got this whole ridiculous 00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:57.599 history that goes back to the 12th century, which... 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.420 No one needs to know. It's irrelevant to a story 01:00:00.420 --> 01:00:03.139 set in the modern world. But for me, I know it 01:00:03.139 --> 01:00:05.280 all. I know it. And it's kind of that I feel 01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:09.099 like an author should have maybe not that extensive 01:00:09.099 --> 01:00:10.519 background, but if they're going to write about 01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:12.199 a topic, they should know that topic really well 01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:15.559 to be able to do it justice. I could be remembering 01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:17.219 this completely wrong, but I think I saw like 01:00:17.219 --> 01:00:18.539 maybe on one of your socials or it might have 01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:19.900 been in the acknowledgements of one of your books. 01:00:20.179 --> 01:00:22.239 You've got a family member who's a doctor who 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:24.239 you go to for research sometimes. Is that right? 01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.250 Bless her. I have a sister who's a doctor and 01:00:29.250 --> 01:00:33.570 I will drop her messages being like, if this 01:00:33.570 --> 01:00:35.769 happened and you decapitated someone on this, 01:00:35.829 --> 01:00:37.389 how would the body react? And she'll be like, 01:00:37.429 --> 01:00:42.150 for fuck's sake. She is the most... I love my 01:00:42.150 --> 01:00:44.030 sister. She's amazing, but she is the most straight 01:00:44.030 --> 01:00:47.429 -laced. Like, her idol is Kate Middleton. No 01:00:47.429 --> 01:00:51.110 exaggeration, she models herself on Kate Middleton. 01:00:51.369 --> 01:00:53.210 So that gives you an idea of what she's like. 01:00:54.010 --> 01:00:56.510 And then there's obviously me, who's like a clusterfuck 01:00:56.510 --> 01:00:58.630 of whatever the fuck I am. And she's just like, 01:00:58.869 --> 01:01:03.010 what? Like, she doesn't read my books. She doesn't 01:01:03.010 --> 01:01:05.989 really read, bless her. She asked me ages ago 01:01:05.989 --> 01:01:08.550 to curate a library for her because she had... 01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:10.960 She'd moved into a new house that had a library 01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:14.739 space and she wanted to look very erudite and 01:01:14.739 --> 01:01:18.019 well -read. And so I had so much fun because 01:01:18.019 --> 01:01:20.000 I did a literature degree. So I bought all these 01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:22.260 books, like proper, really, you know, like Booker 01:01:22.260 --> 01:01:24.619 Prize books and filled her library so she looked 01:01:24.619 --> 01:01:27.059 like the smartest person in the room. And then 01:01:27.059 --> 01:01:28.320 apparently all her friends were asking about 01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:29.820 all these books and which ones she liked and 01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:31.539 she didn't have a fucking clue because she's 01:01:31.539 --> 01:01:34.920 not read any of them. So that's my sister. She's 01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.639 great. But for medical knowledge, she's... she's 01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.699 helpful I also have um my my mother -in -law 01:01:41.699 --> 01:01:44.719 is a nurse I was a nurse she's just retired but 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:47.559 she was a a cancer a head and neck cancer specialist 01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:50.880 nurse um I'd go to my mother -in -law and she'd 01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:53.159 be like hmm well and then she'd sit there and 01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:55.519 she'd like bounce the idea back and forth with 01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:58.159 me and I was like yes this is the relationship 01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:00.000 everyone needs with their mother -in -law if 01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:01.739 they're like right if we're gonna lobotomize 01:02:01.739 --> 01:02:06.480 someone and she she was amazing so yeah yeah 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:09.840 Meanwhile, your partner is sitting in the corner 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:11.760 going, remind me not to piss either of those 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:17.280 people off. Yeah, that literally is a runny joke 01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:20.139 in his family of like, actually, just be careful 01:02:20.139 --> 01:02:23.119 because, yeah, you don't want to piss her off. 01:02:25.539 --> 01:02:28.679 So you said you feel quite a sense of responsibility 01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:31.420 to kind of do the research, make sure that what 01:02:31.420 --> 01:02:34.320 you're portraying in your books is accurate. 01:02:34.780 --> 01:02:37.820 On the other side of that. Do you think people 01:02:37.820 --> 01:02:40.920 are reading your books, reading the stuff that 01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:45.460 you write and using that as education? I really 01:02:45.460 --> 01:02:49.699 hope not. Some of it. The Brethren Lords, I hope 01:02:49.699 --> 01:02:52.719 they're not. I want people to read my books and 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:54.719 be educated because it's not... But at the same 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:58.519 time, like especially the Brethren Lords, I felt 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:01.440 like I needed to show what rape and torture and 01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:03.719 all that shit does to a person and the psychological 01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:07.170 side. And I kind of... With every bit that I've 01:03:07.170 --> 01:03:09.670 written where that happens to a character, I 01:03:09.670 --> 01:03:14.630 wanted to show logically and not in a way that's 01:03:14.630 --> 01:03:15.909 kind of like, oh, yeah, they woke up the next 01:03:15.909 --> 01:03:17.449 day and they were fine and everything was great. 01:03:17.610 --> 01:03:19.389 Because that's not what happens when people go 01:03:19.389 --> 01:03:21.389 through traumatic experiences. So I felt like 01:03:21.389 --> 01:03:23.789 there is an obligation for me to show that kind 01:03:23.789 --> 01:03:26.710 of educational side without it feeling educational 01:03:26.710 --> 01:03:32.400 or feel like I'm giving a sermon. Yeah. I think, 01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:34.320 again, it's got to be a balance, hasn't it? Because 01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:36.860 if it's too research heavy, too kind of down 01:03:36.860 --> 01:03:39.519 that line, then you lose the fun of the story 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:42.139 and you lose the momentum. And it's kind of all 01:03:42.139 --> 01:03:45.780 about balancing it all and making it work. Yeah, 01:03:45.780 --> 01:03:48.960 that's often how I feel is that balance needs 01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:50.920 to be right when I... sort of read this kind 01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:54.400 of stuff i can overlook some sort of skimmed 01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:56.780 over consent conversations if it's a like a consensual 01:03:56.780 --> 01:03:59.460 kink book i can skim over some minor medical 01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:02.920 inaccuracies if it's either kink or or sort of 01:04:02.920 --> 01:04:05.900 torture going on um i mean like for example i've 01:04:05.900 --> 01:04:07.539 i've been branded and i've been waterboarded 01:04:07.539 --> 01:04:09.199 so when i read those scenes i really know whether 01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:12.719 they're right um in a consensual way in a fun 01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:15.960 way um yeah so like i sometimes do see little 01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:17.519 things and i'm like that's not quite spot on 01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:20.320 but also this is fiction i'm i'm reading this 01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.599 for fun i'm not expecting it to be perfect but 01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:25.000 if it's completely massively apart from it or 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:27.340 if it's presenting it as this is how you do a 01:04:27.340 --> 01:04:29.260 healthy kink relationship and then it's toxic 01:04:29.260 --> 01:04:31.719 and messy like 50 shades was sort of portrayed 01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:34.659 as this like big sweeping romance and it's like 01:04:34.659 --> 01:04:37.139 no this is an abusive relationship if you wanted 01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:39.800 to write an abusive relationship like do that 01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:43.639 yeah that's when i that's when where the line 01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:46.860 is i think for me Yeah, I agree. I think for 01:04:46.860 --> 01:04:48.800 me, it's where the magic, if that's the right 01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:51.920 term, breaks. And especially, like, I've read 01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:54.179 scenes where the woman's given birth and then 01:04:54.179 --> 01:04:55.780 the next day she's having sex. And I'm like, 01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:59.699 she's just pushed a baby out of her vagina. She's 01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:04.420 not having sex. And it kind of, it feels like 01:05:04.420 --> 01:05:07.440 plot flaws. And it's like, if you fail to kind 01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:09.360 of write that logically, then the rest of the 01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:11.360 story falls apart and it doesn't work for me. 01:05:12.119 --> 01:05:14.260 Yeah. It is really tricky because we talked a 01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:15.980 couple of times about Fifty Shades of Grey and 01:05:15.980 --> 01:05:20.420 quite rightly it is the criticisms of it are 01:05:20.420 --> 01:05:22.960 justified. But some of the really basic things 01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:24.920 that people complain about it getting wrong are 01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:27.659 about kind of consent and negotiation. And I 01:05:27.659 --> 01:05:30.900 kind of think, yeah, if that was an educational 01:05:30.900 --> 01:05:33.320 resource about how to get into a DS dynamic, 01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:35.539 I could understand that point. But it's entertainment. 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:40.119 Yeah. as fun as consent and negotiation is for 01:05:40.119 --> 01:05:43.960 us and as important as it is to us it's not particularly 01:05:43.960 --> 01:05:48.099 scintillating on the screen or on the page i 01:05:48.099 --> 01:05:52.820 agree yeah i absolutely agree but then you've 01:05:52.820 --> 01:05:55.559 got um what's the book praised by sarah kate 01:05:55.559 --> 01:05:57.800 and obviously that's not a particularly dark 01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.239 book at all but it's it's um salacious players 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.920 book one and it's set in this kink club and he's 01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:07.869 a dominant and he's all in like oh i can't remember 01:06:07.869 --> 01:06:10.170 that someone if anyone's listening to this they'll 01:06:10.170 --> 01:06:12.190 be like you have got this all fucking wrong but 01:06:12.190 --> 01:06:15.050 basically he's really he's really into like dominant 01:06:15.050 --> 01:06:19.010 submissive in a healthy way and she's his son's 01:06:19.010 --> 01:06:21.570 ex -girlfriend and basically she kind of starts 01:06:21.570 --> 01:06:24.469 working for him for whatever reason um and then 01:06:24.469 --> 01:06:26.110 obviously there's some tension between them and 01:06:26.110 --> 01:06:29.070 she realizes what's going on and she goes off 01:06:29.070 --> 01:06:32.500 and she gets the like she researches bdsm and 01:06:32.500 --> 01:06:35.760 she gets the consent form or whatever it is form 01:06:35.760 --> 01:06:37.579 that she downloads from some kink website and 01:06:37.579 --> 01:06:39.400 it's got like tick what you're interested in 01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:42.019 tick what you yeah yeah and and the way she writes 01:06:42.019 --> 01:06:43.920 it is really clever because she writes it in 01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:45.920 a way that you don't think all right this is 01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:47.340 because you've done your research and you want 01:06:47.340 --> 01:06:50.320 to show a safe bdsm community she writes in a 01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:53.420 way that actually makes it quite fun and i think 01:06:53.420 --> 01:06:55.760 there's a way you can do it that you know you're 01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:57.440 not going into all the nitty -gritty but it does 01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:59.920 show it quite well But then also on the flip 01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:01.820 side, I completely agree with you in that Fifty 01:07:01.820 --> 01:07:04.099 Shades of Grey is entertainment. It's a bit of 01:07:04.099 --> 01:07:06.980 a laugh. And actually, I sat there on a day when 01:07:06.980 --> 01:07:10.219 I feel sorry for myself and I'm recovering from 01:07:10.219 --> 01:07:11.360 surgery or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I'm 01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:12.880 going to put this movie on and I'm going to sit 01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.099 here and eat shit and watch this movie. And actually, 01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:18.280 it is a fun thing to watch, even though you acknowledge 01:07:18.280 --> 01:07:21.900 so much about it is not right for the BDSM community. 01:07:22.059 --> 01:07:25.739 And I think. you can't always now i'm going back 01:07:25.739 --> 01:07:27.199 myself you can't always write everything correctly 01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:29.880 you can't always have everything that is purely 01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:31.619 written in a way that makes sure you tick all 01:07:31.619 --> 01:07:33.320 the boxes because then you lose the entertainment 01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:37.079 so i think it everything is all i keep going 01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:38.920 back to this but it is all a balance isn't it 01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:41.719 and it's finding where that line is and that's 01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:44.519 the skill in writing well i guess is having that 01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:47.460 balance right definitely a certain amount of 01:07:47.460 --> 01:07:49.519 reader responsibility as well I think is if you 01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:50.699 read something in a book and you're like this 01:07:50.699 --> 01:07:52.659 is hot I want to do it at least doing a quick 01:07:52.659 --> 01:07:54.340 google first to make sure what you read in the 01:07:54.340 --> 01:07:58.099 book was was right yeah yeah yeah the thing that 01:07:58.099 --> 01:07:59.820 bugs me is when you're reading a scene and the 01:07:59.820 --> 01:08:01.539 girl's never had anal before and then they go 01:08:01.539 --> 01:08:03.500 straight for it no prep no nothing and I'm like 01:08:03.500 --> 01:08:08.840 that is not how it works at all just just make 01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.980 that one thing in almost every book just a little 01:08:11.980 --> 01:08:13.860 bit more realistic unless you want it to be horrible 01:08:13.860 --> 01:08:15.360 like i've done it in my book so it's horrible 01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:18.420 but then if you want it to be you know if you're 01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:20.539 trying to write it as a sexy thing between consenting 01:08:20.539 --> 01:08:23.340 adults just just make it a little bit better 01:08:23.340 --> 01:08:29.409 like come on yeah yeah a degree of realism i 01:08:29.409 --> 01:08:31.630 think would help yeah with that sort of thing 01:08:31.630 --> 01:08:35.029 yeah and it doesn't have to be like boring so 01:08:35.029 --> 01:08:36.810 like with anal as an example you don't want to 01:08:36.810 --> 01:08:39.210 have like a full chapter of someone like douching 01:08:39.210 --> 01:08:41.869 and you know gradually training and stuff for 01:08:41.869 --> 01:08:43.529 a couple of weeks beforehand like you don't you 01:08:43.529 --> 01:08:45.250 can skim over some of that stuff but acknowledge 01:08:45.250 --> 01:08:48.350 that it's happened briefly um yeah and like at 01:08:48.350 --> 01:08:50.909 least have some foreplay yeah yeah absolutely 01:08:50.909 --> 01:08:54.850 yeah yeah there's an art to saying it in a way 01:08:54.850 --> 01:08:57.989 that would show it really well without You know, 01:08:57.989 --> 01:09:00.649 making it realistic without making it brutally, 01:09:00.649 --> 01:09:06.029 boringly realistic. Thinking about the characters 01:09:06.029 --> 01:09:09.250 in your book, are there some positive things 01:09:09.250 --> 01:09:15.810 that people could learn from them? The listeners 01:09:15.810 --> 01:09:18.130 won't see this, but the look on your face then 01:09:18.130 --> 01:09:25.819 was a treat. It's hard because... Obviously, 01:09:25.819 --> 01:09:28.319 the Brethren Lords, most of the women are absolute 01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:30.880 angels and they get put through the most horrendous 01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:32.680 stuff and they don't deserve any of it. And all 01:09:32.680 --> 01:09:35.439 the men are an absolute piece of shit that deserve 01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:37.479 to be put down. I don't know. It's hard because 01:09:37.479 --> 01:09:39.439 even in the ones where it's like downfall, where 01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:41.039 they're, you know, it's dark romance. It's not 01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:43.479 so bad. They still do some really fucking horrible 01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:45.880 stuff. Like, they're human beings. Do you know 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:47.340 what I mean? Like, when you think about what 01:09:47.340 --> 01:09:48.880 they're actually doing, yes, you know, you can 01:09:48.880 --> 01:09:54.770 put a romance spin on it. Yeah. Yeah. So what 01:09:54.770 --> 01:09:57.130 I'm hearing is you just write completely irredeemable 01:09:57.130 --> 01:10:00.069 characters. Yeah, completely irredeemable. The 01:10:00.069 --> 01:10:02.210 only ones that aren't irredeemable are Dominic 01:10:02.210 --> 01:10:05.810 and Eden from Good Girl. I've not read that one 01:10:05.810 --> 01:10:09.470 yet. It's on my list. It's completely different 01:10:09.470 --> 01:10:11.010 to all the others because it's got a couple of 01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:14.569 moments of not dark, not really. They're just 01:10:14.569 --> 01:10:16.489 slightly triggering, not very nice scenes, but 01:10:16.489 --> 01:10:19.810 they're not. But it's basically just like a stepdad, 01:10:19.810 --> 01:10:23.359 stepdaughter, spicy, 70 % smut. absolute feel 01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.119 fest but it's a really fun read and i think yeah 01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:28.819 they're the only redeemable characters in all 01:10:28.819 --> 01:10:30.300 of it but then even then they're cheating on 01:10:30.300 --> 01:10:34.680 the mum so still not not great behavior there 01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:40.020 so yeah i i am responsible for the outline i 01:10:40.020 --> 01:10:41.720 put that in there because i was curious because 01:10:41.720 --> 01:10:44.659 because i feel like like no one should be trying 01:10:44.659 --> 01:10:46.399 to emulate any of the relationships in the brethren 01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:48.420 lords obviously uh we sort of talked about the 01:10:48.420 --> 01:10:50.340 like the consensual version of magnus earlier 01:10:50.340 --> 01:10:53.180 but as they are on the page definitely not but 01:10:53.180 --> 01:10:58.279 i found um deprivation surprisingly like quite 01:10:58.279 --> 01:11:01.119 wholesome in some weird ways in places because 01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:03.739 of the way that Antonio viewed Grace's body. 01:11:04.020 --> 01:11:06.539 I mean, the way that Antonio treated Grace's 01:11:06.539 --> 01:11:09.479 body, a different story. But the fact that she 01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:11.720 was surrounded by so many people making horrible 01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:14.399 comments about her weight, the way she saw herself, 01:11:14.600 --> 01:11:16.939 I read it at least as being quite neutral. And 01:11:16.939 --> 01:11:19.760 then he just absolutely physically worshipped 01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:22.020 her, absolutely found every inch of her desirable. 01:11:22.220 --> 01:11:23.720 And because he's a terrible person, that did 01:11:23.720 --> 01:11:27.279 not translate into good behaviour. But as a mid 01:11:27.279 --> 01:11:30.420 - person reading that like i don't see my body 01:11:30.420 --> 01:11:33.020 type represented in books very often and i don't 01:11:33.020 --> 01:11:36.680 see it represented that well ever um and it was 01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:38.960 i was like i did not get into this to feel like 01:11:38.960 --> 01:11:40.739 emotional and find it surprisingly beautiful 01:11:40.739 --> 01:11:44.579 and yet here we are um the reason i wrote that 01:11:44.579 --> 01:11:48.260 was because i felt so obviously liliana in the 01:11:48.260 --> 01:11:50.399 first book is an older woman because you don't 01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:54.100 see older women always 21 and i was like so i 01:11:54.100 --> 01:11:55.600 wrote her to be a bit older and then obviously 01:11:55.600 --> 01:12:00.590 um Bryn and Paetlyn are younger. So I was like, 01:12:00.630 --> 01:12:02.890 oh, and both of them are your standard skinny 01:12:02.890 --> 01:12:07.729 20s FMC. And they had, well, they didn't necessarily 01:12:07.729 --> 01:12:09.250 have to be skinny, but they had to, do you know 01:12:09.250 --> 01:12:10.829 what I mean, be that age to fit the narrative 01:12:10.829 --> 01:12:13.949 of the plot and to make it work. And with Grace, 01:12:14.250 --> 01:12:16.930 yes, she's young, but I felt I could do something 01:12:16.930 --> 01:12:19.670 really different with her. So I did all my own 01:12:19.670 --> 01:12:22.979 covers for the Brethren Lords. And I also wrote 01:12:22.979 --> 01:12:24.840 another book called Vendetta, where the main 01:12:24.840 --> 01:12:28.720 female character is curvy. And I, when I was 01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:31.899 trying to find stock images of curvy women, it's 01:12:31.899 --> 01:12:35.760 near impossible to find sexy images, like truly, 01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:37.579 you know, you can be like, that woman is fucking 01:12:37.579 --> 01:12:41.069 sexy. And I just found it really frustrating 01:12:41.069 --> 01:12:43.289 because I was like, or what they call plus size. 01:12:43.369 --> 01:12:44.689 I was looking at it going, that's not plus size. 01:12:44.770 --> 01:12:47.189 That's my body. And I wouldn't say I'm plus size. 01:12:47.270 --> 01:12:50.869 And it really pisses me off that there's no representation 01:12:50.869 --> 01:12:55.590 because there are incredibly sexy plus size and 01:12:55.590 --> 01:12:57.890 curvy women. They are fucking gorgeous. And so 01:12:57.890 --> 01:13:00.470 I was like, well, I really want this book to 01:13:00.470 --> 01:13:02.909 have this whole dynamic where she is curvy and 01:13:02.909 --> 01:13:05.130 she's fucking gorgeous. And he's obsessed about 01:13:05.130 --> 01:13:09.380 that because. Instead of all the men, they've 01:13:09.380 --> 01:13:11.119 got complete power. They've got complete control. 01:13:11.260 --> 01:13:12.500 They can do whatever they want and have whatever 01:13:12.500 --> 01:13:14.640 woman they wanted. And I thought it would be 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:17.760 so fucking cliche if every single FMC is a skinny 01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:19.579 blonde. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, 01:13:19.619 --> 01:13:21.319 here we go again. The same fucking bullshit. 01:13:21.619 --> 01:13:23.239 And I was like, actually, what we want is we 01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:26.479 want these men to be real men into real women. 01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:29.119 And a real woman isn't a skinny blonde. I mean, 01:13:29.140 --> 01:13:31.039 obviously, there are skinny blonde women, but 01:13:31.039 --> 01:13:35.359 real women's bodies are not a size zero supermodel. 01:13:35.399 --> 01:13:37.460 And I was like, I'm sick of writing. that size 01:13:37.460 --> 01:13:42.100 zero supermodel. And I kind of wanted to emulate 01:13:42.100 --> 01:13:46.520 in Vendetta, he's like the male main character 01:13:46.520 --> 01:13:49.819 is absolutely obsessed with the female main character's 01:13:49.819 --> 01:13:52.199 body. And I wrote that book in a way that you 01:13:52.199 --> 01:13:54.500 couldn't figure out how big she was. You knew 01:13:54.500 --> 01:13:56.180 she's curvy, but I didn't want someone to be 01:13:56.180 --> 01:13:58.479 like, oh yeah, she's a size 14 or she's a size 01:13:58.479 --> 01:14:01.199 22 or whatever. I wanted it so that whoever was 01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:03.979 reading that book could see their body type. 01:14:04.779 --> 01:14:07.020 And I kind of almost wanted to repeat that again 01:14:07.020 --> 01:14:09.800 in Deprivation and have it where you could see 01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:12.279 your own body type. Because when I read books, 01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.640 I always put myself in as the female main character. 01:14:14.739 --> 01:14:17.560 But if the body isn't fitting, it doesn't work. 01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:19.340 And I was like, actually, I want so many people 01:14:19.340 --> 01:14:22.000 to be able to read this and see. Actually, as 01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:23.119 I'm saying this, I'm like, do you really want 01:14:23.119 --> 01:14:26.720 to see yourself in the Brethren Lords? Kind of 01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:30.260 do, yeah. But at the same time, you want to see 01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:32.810 your... It's the same thing about inclusivity, 01:14:32.930 --> 01:14:35.229 isn't it? In terms of, you know, you read this 01:14:35.229 --> 01:14:36.850 awful stuff and you think, well, I'm not alone. 01:14:37.149 --> 01:14:38.949 It's the same thing with body types. If all you're 01:14:38.949 --> 01:14:41.890 ever reading about is skinny women, then that's 01:14:41.890 --> 01:14:44.409 incredibly isolating. And it's that body positive 01:14:44.409 --> 01:14:47.310 thing of like, actually, we should have so much 01:14:47.310 --> 01:14:50.829 more representation around curvy women. And they 01:14:50.829 --> 01:14:52.729 don't always have to feel great about their body 01:14:52.729 --> 01:14:54.229 either, because something I struggled with a 01:14:54.229 --> 01:14:58.180 little bit of body positivity is either. or curvy 01:14:58.180 --> 01:15:00.460 women books is either they fucking love their 01:15:00.460 --> 01:15:02.819 curvy women they're so powerful and they're so 01:15:02.819 --> 01:15:05.859 like yeah i'm or they have this whole insecurity 01:15:05.859 --> 01:15:08.739 about it and it's like you can have both you 01:15:08.739 --> 01:15:11.020 can like everyone at moments loves their body 01:15:11.020 --> 01:15:12.539 and thinks fuck i look great and other moments 01:15:12.539 --> 01:15:14.920 go oh my god i look awful i need to sort myself 01:15:14.920 --> 01:15:17.680 out i'm a state and actually it's a real person 01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:19.699 never looks at themselves all the time thinks 01:15:19.699 --> 01:15:21.880 i look great or i look horrendous there's there's 01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:24.619 a an in -between and i've gone down a huge tangent 01:15:24.619 --> 01:15:27.760 no that's that's great because that's i so much 01:15:27.760 --> 01:15:29.840 got that like you absolutely nailed it like because 01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:32.460 grace for a start there is enough going on for 01:15:32.460 --> 01:15:34.060 grace that i think her body is the least of her 01:15:34.060 --> 01:15:37.100 worries um and it always did feel like she she 01:15:37.100 --> 01:15:39.699 just wasn't focused on that she wasn't her internal 01:15:39.699 --> 01:15:42.000 voice wasn't constantly going god i'm so hot 01:15:42.000 --> 01:15:44.199 because i'm curvy or oh my god i'm disgusting 01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:46.239 no one should look at me she was just getting 01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:48.260 on with her life while while being the size that 01:15:48.260 --> 01:15:50.560 she is and experiencing the range of people's 01:15:50.560 --> 01:15:53.359 reactions to that and then having that contrasted 01:15:53.359 --> 01:15:54.899 with the people saying the negative things and 01:15:54.899 --> 01:15:57.819 contrasted with antonio thinking it was absolutely 01:15:57.819 --> 01:16:01.979 perfect and and wanting more of it um yeah like 01:16:01.979 --> 01:16:04.979 yeah it just it was one of those reading experiences 01:16:04.979 --> 01:16:06.359 where i was like oh that just healed a little 01:16:06.359 --> 01:16:09.359 bit of me um which is great because i definitely 01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:11.840 have that that sort of conflict with myself with 01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:14.000 my body at times and yeah you you nailed that 01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:16.920 one That's really good to hear because I struggled 01:16:16.920 --> 01:16:20.640 with the whole fat phobic comments and I really 01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:22.699 struggled writing that because I was like, this 01:16:22.699 --> 01:16:25.359 is fucking horrible. So it's really nice to hear 01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:28.539 that from a reader's perspective, it did something 01:16:28.539 --> 01:16:30.539 because it felt fucking horrible writing some 01:16:30.539 --> 01:16:32.699 of those scenes. And I was like, I just, I'm 01:16:32.699 --> 01:16:35.119 really worried. I was so nervous about it. I've 01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:36.899 got two people to read it. One of them had been 01:16:36.899 --> 01:16:39.340 in a relationship where, I think it's like a 01:16:39.340 --> 01:16:41.100 feeder relationship, if that's the right word. 01:16:42.820 --> 01:16:44.560 And she read it and she was like, you're fine, 01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:45.939 you're fine. Because what I didn't want to do 01:16:45.939 --> 01:16:47.520 is publish something and people are like, this 01:16:47.520 --> 01:16:49.359 is the most offensive. Like, obviously it's offensive. 01:16:49.399 --> 01:16:51.420 There's some awful shit in it. But I didn't want 01:16:51.420 --> 01:16:55.819 that to be offensive in it. I mean, the fat phobia 01:16:55.819 --> 01:16:58.520 is fucking horrible. And yeah, I had sensitivity 01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:02.060 readers for it because I was like, I feel deeply 01:17:02.060 --> 01:17:05.279 uncomfortable with some of these scenes. So hearing 01:17:05.279 --> 01:17:07.960 that it helped is that that moment there, it 01:17:07.960 --> 01:17:11.000 just made me feel better. Thank you. Good. Yeah, 01:17:11.100 --> 01:17:12.760 I'd been going to ask about the sensitivity readers 01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:14.380 because that was the first time that you'd you'd 01:17:14.380 --> 01:17:17.899 use sensitivity readers, wasn't it? Yeah, I I'm 01:17:17.899 --> 01:17:21.329 a little bit. So the process of writing a book, 01:17:21.350 --> 01:17:22.569 you're meant to write a book, then you're meant 01:17:22.569 --> 01:17:24.689 to give it to alpha readers, then they come back 01:17:24.689 --> 01:17:26.170 with their comments, then you give it to beta 01:17:26.170 --> 01:17:28.829 readers who then, like you make changes, then 01:17:28.829 --> 01:17:31.689 they give it to beta readers. And then once you're 01:17:31.689 --> 01:17:33.770 happy with it, you then go through all the editors 01:17:33.770 --> 01:17:38.609 and all that stuff. I don't do alpha readers 01:17:38.609 --> 01:17:41.390 or beta readers because I've had experience with 01:17:41.390 --> 01:17:42.630 people reading my books in the past and going, 01:17:42.729 --> 01:17:44.449 right, you need to change this and this and this 01:17:44.449 --> 01:17:46.430 and you need to change this ending and basically 01:17:46.430 --> 01:17:48.850 rewrite the entire story to how they want. And 01:17:48.850 --> 01:17:51.630 I'm like, no, this is my story. They're always 01:17:51.630 --> 01:17:53.649 very loud in my head in terms of where they start, 01:17:53.789 --> 01:17:55.770 what happens and where they end up. So I feel 01:17:55.770 --> 01:17:59.369 like I don't need someone to tell me from a beta 01:17:59.369 --> 01:18:01.529 or an alpha perspective how the story works. 01:18:01.770 --> 01:18:03.970 What I need is to know, does this make sense 01:18:03.970 --> 01:18:09.060 coherently? are the characters full rounded if 01:18:09.060 --> 01:18:12.000 that's the right term for a psychopath um characters 01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:15.939 like do their motives make sense um and i've 01:18:15.939 --> 01:18:18.239 generally stayed away from sensitivity readers 01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:20.340 because i felt like a lot of the triggers i've 01:18:20.340 --> 01:18:23.020 put into those books are triggers or scenes that 01:18:23.020 --> 01:18:26.619 i've been through um so i i and i've had people 01:18:26.619 --> 01:18:28.699 read it but oh it didn't really for me and i 01:18:28.699 --> 01:18:31.000 was like but that's my trauma do you know what 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:32.319 i mean you know when you read something and you 01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:35.520 identify with different bits and i I didn't have 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:37.640 sensitivity readers because I felt some of the 01:18:37.640 --> 01:18:41.800 scenes were so fucking out that I couldn't find 01:18:41.800 --> 01:18:45.260 a sensitivity reader that would really fit. And 01:18:45.260 --> 01:18:50.699 then obviously book four, what's the word? Book 01:18:50.699 --> 01:18:52.659 four, obviously you've got all the horrible fucking 01:18:52.659 --> 01:18:55.060 fat phobic and shit going on. And I was like, 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:59.739 this book is just so... I struggled so much with 01:18:59.739 --> 01:19:02.439 that book that I felt I was questioning myself. 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:04.600 And I was like, I need someone else here just 01:19:04.600 --> 01:19:06.239 because I never want to put something out there 01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:10.500 that offends my readers. Like, I know it's going 01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:12.239 to offend people and I know that and I know I'm 01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:13.699 going to get hate and I'm comfortable with that. 01:19:13.739 --> 01:19:16.159 But what I don't want to do is have my core readership 01:19:16.159 --> 01:19:19.800 read that and go, the fuck is this? They're who 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:24.399 are important to me. And then my final book has... 01:19:24.779 --> 01:19:27.300 a person of color is the female main character 01:19:27.300 --> 01:19:31.359 um and i'm i find this really weird saying but 01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:33.159 i'm i'm a person of color even though i'm white 01:19:33.159 --> 01:19:35.380 passing like complete i am completely fucking 01:19:35.380 --> 01:19:38.220 white passing so i was like i am not comfortable 01:19:38.220 --> 01:19:41.520 writing a person of color without having someone 01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:43.699 read for it as well so i've had a sensitivity 01:19:43.699 --> 01:19:46.880 reader on the final pick as well just to make 01:19:46.880 --> 01:19:50.529 sure because I think it's incredibly easy to 01:19:50.529 --> 01:19:52.649 write a person of colour wrong and write it in 01:19:52.649 --> 01:19:54.909 a way that you think is representing and actually 01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:57.210 is deeply offensive. And I would hate to be offensive 01:19:57.210 --> 01:20:00.529 in the way that I've represented her. So I've 01:20:00.529 --> 01:20:02.590 had a few sensitivity readers with that book 01:20:02.590 --> 01:20:05.609 just to make sure that it, again, it is for my 01:20:05.609 --> 01:20:10.229 audience and it fits. Yeah, I don't know how 01:20:10.229 --> 01:20:12.810 I feel about sensitivity readers because I know 01:20:12.810 --> 01:20:15.189 some people have them for every single book and 01:20:15.189 --> 01:20:18.840 I can absolutely see the value in them. And for 01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:21.539 me, I kind of, I trust my gut, which maybe is 01:20:21.539 --> 01:20:23.939 a bit reckless because maybe one day I'll write 01:20:23.939 --> 01:20:25.859 a book and people will be like, this is absolutely 01:20:25.859 --> 01:20:28.439 horrendous. And I, do you know what I mean? I've 01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:30.880 gone slack and I've let myself down and I hope 01:20:30.880 --> 01:20:33.579 that never happens. But for me, I kind of trust 01:20:33.579 --> 01:20:38.180 my gut on the books. And if I feel, if I feel 01:20:38.180 --> 01:20:39.640 that in my gut, then I'm like, okay, I'm getting 01:20:39.640 --> 01:20:41.560 a sensitivity reader. And if I feel like I'm 01:20:41.560 --> 01:20:43.899 comfortable, then I don't. And I think that's 01:20:43.899 --> 01:20:47.250 a very personal choice. And I think each author 01:20:47.250 --> 01:20:49.569 probably makes that choice for themselves and 01:20:49.569 --> 01:20:52.569 how they are with their writing process. Yeah. 01:20:52.710 --> 01:20:55.880 And it seems like you're sort of... Your threshold 01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:57.359 for it, apart from just that gut feeling, like 01:20:57.359 --> 01:20:59.399 you said, is if you're stepping a little bit 01:20:59.399 --> 01:21:01.460 further outside your own experience or outside 01:21:01.460 --> 01:21:03.439 of things that you can get just from pure research, 01:21:03.500 --> 01:21:06.119 things like, you know, people's experience of 01:21:06.119 --> 01:21:08.239 their body and of the feeder type relationship 01:21:08.239 --> 01:21:11.640 and of a person of colour who isn't white passing, 01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:14.520 like they will have perspectives on it that maybe 01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:16.560 you can't get just from reading stuff on the 01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:19.380 internet. That is exactly it. I think anything 01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:22.600 outside my scope. I feel like something that 01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:23.960 you can make up, you know, something that you 01:21:23.960 --> 01:21:26.100 can imagine, but actually when you're representing 01:21:26.100 --> 01:21:29.439 someone else and their experiences, you have 01:21:29.439 --> 01:21:31.000 to be very careful with that and do that in a 01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:34.420 way that is legitimate and is a fair representation. 01:21:35.539 --> 01:21:39.100 Yeah. So you have, I mean, I have written in 01:21:39.100 --> 01:21:40.500 the outline that we're going to talk about decimation 01:21:40.500 --> 01:21:42.880 now, but then I also noticed you have announced 01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:45.640 another book as well. So just briefly, how much 01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:51.500 do you write? I never stop writing. Basically, 01:21:51.659 --> 01:21:55.659 my brain never shuts up. So I have what I call 01:21:55.659 --> 01:21:57.340 a superpower. And some people will be like, oh, 01:21:57.340 --> 01:22:02.189 here we go. I have ADHD. And basically, I have 01:22:02.189 --> 01:22:03.789 something called hyperfocus, which I think a 01:22:03.789 --> 01:22:07.470 lot of people with ADHD have, where I can literally 01:22:07.470 --> 01:22:10.210 sit and it's the best superpower in the world. 01:22:10.270 --> 01:22:11.930 I can sit here, my partner will go off to work 01:22:11.930 --> 01:22:14.189 at six in the morning, and I will sit here and 01:22:14.189 --> 01:22:16.869 I'll start writing. And I won't move, I won't 01:22:16.869 --> 01:22:19.550 wee, I won't drink, I won't do anything until 01:22:19.550 --> 01:22:21.609 he comes home at night at like six. And then 01:22:21.609 --> 01:22:23.909 I'll hear the door go and I'll snap out of whatever 01:22:23.909 --> 01:22:26.029 I've done and go, oh, fuck, I'm going to piss 01:22:26.029 --> 01:22:28.010 myself. And now I have to run to the toilet. 01:22:29.310 --> 01:22:30.850 And I would have written like 10 ,000 words in 01:22:30.850 --> 01:22:33.909 one day because I'm just like, and my, I taught 01:22:33.909 --> 01:22:35.850 myself to touch type years and years ago. So 01:22:35.850 --> 01:22:39.750 I can literally just, like, maybe not all those 01:22:39.750 --> 01:22:41.390 10 ,000 words will be great. Maybe half of them 01:22:41.390 --> 01:22:42.989 will be absolutely pure shit. And I'll be like, 01:22:43.010 --> 01:22:44.909 right, delete that, start again. But my best 01:22:44.909 --> 01:22:47.630 that I've written was just over 25 ,000 words 01:22:47.630 --> 01:22:49.609 in one day because I was just like. Oh, wow. 01:22:49.869 --> 01:22:53.470 Crikey. And some of it was absolute shit. The 01:22:53.470 --> 01:22:55.250 next day I was like, what the fuck is this? To 01:22:55.250 --> 01:22:58.970 flip this entire paragraph. But it's really helpful 01:22:58.970 --> 01:23:01.229 when you're like, right. And the problem I have 01:23:01.229 --> 01:23:03.289 is my characters, like I said earlier in that, 01:23:03.390 --> 01:23:07.810 I method write. The characters are in my head. 01:23:07.930 --> 01:23:11.569 I dream about them. I run scenes over. So when 01:23:11.569 --> 01:23:13.869 I'm gardening, I used to walk the dogs from my... 01:23:14.109 --> 01:23:17.189 dog was alive and could walk um I used to walk 01:23:17.189 --> 01:23:19.149 him for an hour and a half and I'd be thinking 01:23:19.149 --> 01:23:21.930 scenes through the whole time and my phone has 01:23:21.930 --> 01:23:23.970 got you know um the notes section on your phone 01:23:23.970 --> 01:23:26.850 my phone just has like all the scenes that I'm 01:23:26.850 --> 01:23:28.850 writing if I'm out and I'm like right this scene 01:23:28.850 --> 01:23:30.369 has to be written right now because if I don't 01:23:30.369 --> 01:23:32.109 write it down straight away I've lost it and 01:23:32.109 --> 01:23:34.210 then if I try and rewrite it again it just doesn't 01:23:34.210 --> 01:23:36.949 have that spark so my notes is just filled with 01:23:36.949 --> 01:23:39.670 all these sections of like conversations and 01:23:39.670 --> 01:23:41.470 ideas and stuff and then I'll like write email 01:23:41.470 --> 01:23:45.090 it to myself so I just I just wish I could take 01:23:45.090 --> 01:23:48.050 a break. I'd just love a break. A break would 01:23:48.050 --> 01:23:53.250 be amazing. It'd just be so helpful. Yeah, so 01:23:53.250 --> 01:23:55.149 this book's coming out in November. I'm about 01:23:55.149 --> 01:23:57.550 10 ,000 words in already. Even though I said 01:23:57.550 --> 01:23:59.970 June was going to be my admin month, I was like, 01:24:00.010 --> 01:24:02.579 I need to fix my website because it's... not 01:24:02.579 --> 01:24:05.560 quite working I need to do all this back admin 01:24:05.560 --> 01:24:07.380 I had to sort loads of stuff out for my accountant 01:24:07.380 --> 01:24:10.500 who was like if you don't sort this um I'm quitting 01:24:10.500 --> 01:24:12.180 you and was like wow I'm at the point where my 01:24:12.180 --> 01:24:14.079 accountant wants to fire me this is pretty cool 01:24:14.079 --> 01:24:17.560 and I was like right okay June I'm gonna take 01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:20.579 an admin month and get myself sorted and then 01:24:20.579 --> 01:24:22.399 I started another book because that's what I 01:24:22.399 --> 01:24:25.600 do yeah because I remember when we arranged this 01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.619 recording session a month or two ago you said 01:24:27.619 --> 01:24:29.619 oh yeah my June's completely clear and then you 01:24:29.619 --> 01:24:31.560 announced a new book because if I'm remembering 01:24:31.560 --> 01:24:35.199 right Decimation comes out 21st of August yeah 01:24:35.199 --> 01:24:38.600 21st of August and then the monster you made 01:24:38.600 --> 01:24:41.739 of me coming in November that's a quick turnaround 01:24:41.739 --> 01:24:43.439 when you only just finished Decimation that's 01:24:43.439 --> 01:24:46.060 incredible ridiculous I was like for fuck's sake 01:24:46.060 --> 01:24:49.770 but In my head, I'm like, right, well, I've pretty 01:24:49.770 --> 01:24:51.829 much done all the admin I need to do. It's the 01:24:51.829 --> 01:24:54.270 20th of June. I can start writing this book now. 01:24:54.390 --> 01:24:56.430 I've got most of June and July to get written. 01:24:57.350 --> 01:24:58.909 Decimation's out in August. I could probably 01:24:58.909 --> 01:25:01.270 get it finished in August, get it to editors 01:25:01.270 --> 01:25:04.229 and all of that for September, have it lined 01:25:04.229 --> 01:25:08.350 up. But this is what I always do. And the problem 01:25:08.350 --> 01:25:11.189 is I... I'm one of those people that have the 01:25:11.189 --> 01:25:12.949 best plan in the world and then basically just 01:25:12.949 --> 01:25:17.909 go, ah, fuck it, I'll do what I want. And I'm 01:25:17.909 --> 01:25:21.350 like, what's the word? I'm a chaos gremlin. And 01:25:21.350 --> 01:25:23.430 I have this phrase that diamonds are made under 01:25:23.430 --> 01:25:27.869 pressure. And I love a deadline. I absolutely 01:25:27.869 --> 01:25:29.689 love that. You've got two weeks to get this done 01:25:29.689 --> 01:25:31.449 or you're fucked. And then I'm like, all right, 01:25:31.590 --> 01:25:33.770 here we go. And then I bring out my best work. 01:25:33.989 --> 01:25:36.029 Because I was going to ask, as someone who... 01:25:36.520 --> 01:25:39.260 has possibly a different relationship with deadlines. 01:25:40.880 --> 01:25:44.579 Announcing a launch date for a book you're still 01:25:44.579 --> 01:25:52.060 writing just makes me shiver. I do. But my problem 01:25:52.060 --> 01:25:56.680 is, if I didn't announce the launch date, I wouldn't... 01:25:56.680 --> 01:26:00.819 I'd never write the book. Because I need the 01:26:00.819 --> 01:26:04.840 kick up the butt to get shit done. I don't know 01:26:04.840 --> 01:26:06.920 how to explain it because I... Like, I never 01:26:06.920 --> 01:26:09.060 stop writing, but at the same time, I've got 01:26:09.060 --> 01:26:10.619 all these other books planned for next year. 01:26:10.880 --> 01:26:12.800 So if I'm lucky, I'm going to try and release 01:26:12.800 --> 01:26:15.159 six books next year, which is fucking nuts. But 01:26:15.159 --> 01:26:17.180 I'll probably do it because I'm like, I know 01:26:17.180 --> 01:26:20.000 it's fucking stupid, but at the same time, we'll 01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:24.000 see how much I can break myself. But the problem 01:26:24.000 --> 01:26:27.199 I had with Decimation was I finished Deprivation 01:26:27.199 --> 01:26:31.090 in, what, February? And Decimation is due out 01:26:31.090 --> 01:26:33.369 in August. And I was like, I've got all this 01:26:33.369 --> 01:26:36.149 time in the world. This is amazing. So I wrote 01:26:36.149 --> 01:26:38.590 loads, hated it, deleted it. Wrote loads again, 01:26:38.789 --> 01:26:41.350 hated it, deleted it. I got to 50 ,000 words, 01:26:41.529 --> 01:26:43.489 decided the entire thing was shit again, deleted 01:26:43.489 --> 01:26:45.489 the entire thing. And I've never had this with 01:26:45.489 --> 01:26:48.369 a book before. And I think my problem with that 01:26:48.369 --> 01:26:52.740 book was I had such a long lead time. Yeah. It 01:26:52.740 --> 01:26:54.859 just, it doesn't work for me. Like I need to 01:26:54.859 --> 01:26:57.619 be short and snappy. And I felt with Decimation, 01:26:57.699 --> 01:26:59.819 there were times when I really struggled to hear 01:26:59.819 --> 01:27:02.779 the FMC's voice and I was trying to write it 01:27:02.779 --> 01:27:05.100 and I couldn't figure out her backstory. I had 01:27:05.100 --> 01:27:07.100 a great backstory for her and then decided it 01:27:07.100 --> 01:27:09.159 was shit and deleted it, write an entirely different 01:27:09.159 --> 01:27:11.699 backstory, realised it was shit. And then I finally 01:27:11.699 --> 01:27:13.180 figured out what it was and was like, this makes 01:27:13.180 --> 01:27:15.380 so much sense. Now it clicks into so much other 01:27:15.380 --> 01:27:18.180 stuff and it's fine and it's great. But it felt, 01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:20.159 because I had so much time to work with it, it 01:27:20.159 --> 01:27:23.510 felt the book was fighting me. yeah whereas all 01:27:23.510 --> 01:27:25.189 my other ones where it's like you've got you've 01:27:25.189 --> 01:27:26.689 got a month you've got two months to get this 01:27:26.689 --> 01:27:28.569 book written there's no time for that bullshit 01:27:28.569 --> 01:27:31.489 it's like just get it done and it flowed so much 01:27:31.489 --> 01:27:35.609 six books in a year sounds terrifying as a sort 01:27:35.609 --> 01:27:38.029 of infrequent writer like i mainly blog and i've 01:27:38.029 --> 01:27:39.710 done little bits of fiction and it'll be like 01:27:39.710 --> 01:27:41.810 i'm inspired for three days and you're gonna 01:27:41.810 --> 01:27:43.949 get two blog posts and i'll write a chapter of 01:27:43.949 --> 01:27:46.850 a book and then in six months i might do it again 01:27:46.850 --> 01:27:52.399 i For me, like if you told me a few years ago 01:27:52.399 --> 01:27:54.060 I'd do six books, I'd be like, yeah, absolutely 01:27:54.060 --> 01:27:56.899 nuts. But now I'm like, yeah, this is, I can 01:27:56.899 --> 01:28:01.359 do this. Absolutely. Yeah. No problem. So lots 01:28:01.359 --> 01:28:03.739 of upcoming projects, but we'll talk a little 01:28:03.739 --> 01:28:06.340 bit about Decimation for now, but I will be very 01:28:06.340 --> 01:28:08.119 excited to see what else is coming. Definitely. 01:28:09.340 --> 01:28:11.439 So what can you tell us about what to expect 01:28:11.439 --> 01:28:12.920 in Decimation? I know you won't want to give 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:16.520 us too many spoilers. I'm so nervous. I think 01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:19.920 for me, The pressure really fell on for this 01:28:19.920 --> 01:28:22.800 one because I'd done four books before and because 01:28:22.800 --> 01:28:24.720 everyone's gone, oh, they get darker and darker. 01:28:24.899 --> 01:28:27.000 I was like, oh, fuck. And I don't think, in my 01:28:27.000 --> 01:28:28.659 opinion, and I've said this about everyone, but 01:28:28.659 --> 01:28:31.619 I genuinely mean it with Decimation. I don't 01:28:31.619 --> 01:28:33.779 think it's as dark. I think it's as dark as Deviant, 01:28:33.779 --> 01:28:36.239 maybe Depravity. Like, I don't think it's as 01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:39.319 dark as some of the others. And I think because 01:28:39.319 --> 01:28:44.510 it's the end series, I just... It feels, I don't 01:28:44.510 --> 01:28:47.590 know, I'm shitting myself about this book. I'm 01:28:47.590 --> 01:28:49.090 so worried everyone's going to read about this. 01:28:49.109 --> 01:28:51.770 This is shit. I hate it. I'm never reading one 01:28:51.770 --> 01:28:53.970 of your books again. But I always have this, 01:28:54.010 --> 01:28:56.770 this is the imposter syndrome that's like, oh 01:28:56.770 --> 01:28:59.090 yeah, maybe everyone will realise that actually 01:28:59.090 --> 01:29:01.590 they hate me and they hate my books and this 01:29:01.590 --> 01:29:06.710 has all been a fluke. Was The Brethren Lords 01:29:06.710 --> 01:29:10.489 always going to be five books? No, originally 01:29:10.489 --> 01:29:13.350 it was going to be one book. This is again, this 01:29:13.350 --> 01:29:15.449 is what I do. So like Downfall was only ever 01:29:15.449 --> 01:29:16.850 meant to be one book. And then the story got 01:29:16.850 --> 01:29:19.229 so big, I was like, oh shit, I've got to make 01:29:19.229 --> 01:29:21.970 it into two books of Uprising. And then I realized 01:29:21.970 --> 01:29:24.430 I had to do Reckoning to give Sophia a story 01:29:24.430 --> 01:29:28.069 because she needed a story. And then in Sophia's 01:29:28.069 --> 01:29:30.329 story, it kind of created the Brethren Lords 01:29:30.329 --> 01:29:32.750 because it's all in the same universe. And then 01:29:32.750 --> 01:29:39.199 Deviant was meant to be a one -off. That I then 01:29:39.199 --> 01:29:41.079 realised I could tie into The Brethren Lords 01:29:41.079 --> 01:29:45.159 and realise how I could actually... Yeah, this 01:29:45.159 --> 01:29:46.699 is my problem in that I come up with an idea 01:29:46.699 --> 01:29:48.880 and then as I'm writing the book, the idea gets 01:29:48.880 --> 01:29:51.439 bigger and bigger. And then I was like, oh, well, 01:29:51.500 --> 01:29:53.159 maybe I'll just do it as the three. So originally 01:29:53.159 --> 01:29:54.939 it went from one book to three. So it was going 01:29:54.939 --> 01:30:00.579 to be Magnus, Conrad and... Oh my God, I forgot 01:30:00.579 --> 01:30:04.260 his name. All right, all right. It's all the 01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:07.680 Ds again. All the fucking Ds. And I was like, 01:30:07.739 --> 01:30:09.500 yeah, I'll stop it at Devon. And then I realized 01:30:09.500 --> 01:30:11.699 Antonia had become such an interesting character 01:30:11.699 --> 01:30:15.140 that I had to write a story about Antonia. And 01:30:15.140 --> 01:30:17.560 I was like, well, I also really need to explain 01:30:17.560 --> 01:30:20.359 about the Grandmaster. And by halfway through, 01:30:20.399 --> 01:30:22.319 like book three, I was like, this is so fucking 01:30:22.319 --> 01:30:25.840 big. I actually need these extra books. Otherwise 01:30:25.840 --> 01:30:27.899 it will feel unfinished and it will feel like 01:30:27.899 --> 01:30:31.659 a lazy finish. So yeah, and then from that, the 01:30:31.659 --> 01:30:34.420 Black Orchid has kind of spun out of that. So 01:30:34.420 --> 01:30:37.739 that's another series that's just kind of, yeah, 01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.239 it's ridiculous. Is that going to be connected 01:30:40.239 --> 01:30:42.579 to, is that in the same universe as well? Same 01:30:42.579 --> 01:30:44.479 universe. So some of the characters are going 01:30:44.479 --> 01:30:47.279 to cross over from Decimation into the Black 01:30:47.279 --> 01:30:50.520 Orchid. They're very, one or two of them are 01:30:50.520 --> 01:30:53.960 like minor characters, but it all kind of, so 01:30:53.960 --> 01:30:55.819 the Black Orchid Club is the club that Grace 01:30:55.819 --> 01:30:58.520 was taken to in Deprivation. Of course, yeah. 01:30:59.539 --> 01:31:01.939 Yeah, it's because it's very lightly mentioned 01:31:01.939 --> 01:31:05.000 that I don't know whether many people have made 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.279 that connection. But in the final book, it's 01:31:07.279 --> 01:31:11.220 made more obvious. And then the spinoff series 01:31:11.220 --> 01:31:13.819 is basically the Black Orchid Club as a sex club. 01:31:13.899 --> 01:31:17.140 And then the premise is there's these five girls 01:31:17.140 --> 01:31:19.760 that are auctioned off. So each book is about 01:31:19.760 --> 01:31:22.020 a different girl and a different couple. It's 01:31:22.020 --> 01:31:27.210 going to be a bit more BDSM led. um but it is 01:31:27.210 --> 01:31:28.869 dark romance rather than pitch black romance 01:31:28.869 --> 01:31:32.800 um i don't know if it's going to be fully BDSM 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:35.399 in terms of like the consent I've got to figure 01:31:35.399 --> 01:31:37.460 out how I'm working that so it's trying to again 01:31:37.460 --> 01:31:38.939 it's going back to that earlier thing of education 01:31:38.939 --> 01:31:40.619 and finding the right balance and making sure 01:31:40.619 --> 01:31:42.699 that it shows it's going to be an interesting 01:31:42.699 --> 01:31:44.300 one to write because I've got to balance it and 01:31:44.300 --> 01:31:46.880 make it interesting and have that drama and all 01:31:46.880 --> 01:31:48.779 of it that I've got in the other stories while 01:31:48.779 --> 01:31:50.859 also if I'm going to write BDSM community making 01:31:50.859 --> 01:31:53.180 sure that that fits the right way and it's just 01:31:53.180 --> 01:31:56.960 it's a lot of balls to juggle but it yeah hopefully 01:31:56.960 --> 01:31:58.779 I can do it I'm definitely looking forward to 01:31:58.779 --> 01:32:03.520 those they sound amazing have there been any 01:32:03.520 --> 01:32:08.100 hints in the existing brethren lords books that 01:32:08.100 --> 01:32:10.079 we might have missed that will give us clues 01:32:10.079 --> 01:32:11.960 of what's coming in decimation anything that 01:32:11.960 --> 01:32:14.939 i should be combing through them for there is 01:32:14.939 --> 01:32:20.079 there's a really big hint that no one's really 01:32:20.079 --> 01:32:23.560 like but it's it you you only see in hindsight 01:32:23.560 --> 01:32:30.979 yeah so i can i can say it Do I want to say it? 01:32:32.020 --> 01:32:34.720 There's a few little tales. Like I'm all about 01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:36.420 like dropping little tales that later you read 01:32:36.420 --> 01:32:39.039 back and go, fucking hell. So there's a few, 01:32:39.079 --> 01:32:42.800 particularly in degradation, there's a few little 01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:46.020 things that have just, because they talk about 01:32:46.020 --> 01:32:49.119 right at the end, obviously, Innes and Constantine. 01:32:49.439 --> 01:32:53.260 And there's a few little things, which it's just, 01:32:53.279 --> 01:32:56.520 it's clever. I say that really arrogantly. Oh, 01:32:56.579 --> 01:32:58.220 I'm so clever. Look at me writing all these clever 01:32:58.220 --> 01:33:01.739 things. I hope it's clever. Most people are like, 01:33:01.840 --> 01:33:03.520 this is not clever. This is so fucking obvious. 01:33:04.500 --> 01:33:09.220 Yeah. But, oh, yeah. I'm going to have to go 01:33:09.220 --> 01:33:11.000 Easter egg hunting. I'm totally going to go look 01:33:11.000 --> 01:33:13.579 and see what I can find. I really do. And then 01:33:13.579 --> 01:33:15.420 I've written a few things in decimation, which 01:33:15.420 --> 01:33:17.260 I think people are like, fuck, I never, like 01:33:17.260 --> 01:33:20.380 leading back into like, particularly Caitlin 01:33:20.380 --> 01:33:22.279 and Devin, there's a few little things about. 01:33:22.680 --> 01:33:25.500 of paten's story and paten's heritage that comes 01:33:25.500 --> 01:33:28.699 into the final book as well and because i know 01:33:28.699 --> 01:33:30.079 there was lots of questions about who her father 01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:33.819 really is and stuff like that and it's there's 01:33:33.819 --> 01:33:35.939 a few little like i've left all these little 01:33:35.939 --> 01:33:39.359 what they were not loopholes um plot holes there 01:33:39.359 --> 01:33:42.079 we go um and it's kind of making sure i close 01:33:42.079 --> 01:33:46.529 all those plot holes correctly um Yeah, I'm kind 01:33:46.529 --> 01:33:48.649 of hoping that once people finish the final book, 01:33:48.789 --> 01:33:50.670 then they'll be like, whoa, okay, it's changed 01:33:50.670 --> 01:33:52.909 how I look. And particularly like at the end 01:33:52.909 --> 01:33:56.529 of the final book, you've got the two main characters 01:33:56.529 --> 01:33:59.590 and they're looking back at some of the other 01:33:59.590 --> 01:34:01.409 characters that are there, like Devon and Patlin 01:34:01.409 --> 01:34:04.489 are there and Magnus and Liliana. But you've 01:34:04.489 --> 01:34:06.770 got this main male character's perspective on 01:34:06.770 --> 01:34:09.689 all of them. And what I like about it is it's 01:34:09.689 --> 01:34:12.520 got... you know, like everyone romanticizes Paitlyn 01:34:12.520 --> 01:34:15.000 and Devon's relationship. They're like, oh, isn't 01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:17.300 it? But actually it is one of complete control. 01:34:17.340 --> 01:34:19.720 Like she's blind, not to spoil it, but she's, 01:34:19.720 --> 01:34:22.500 because of what's happened, massive plot spoiler 01:34:22.500 --> 01:34:25.439 there, she's blind. So he has complete control 01:34:25.439 --> 01:34:28.560 over her. And everyone's like, it's this romantic 01:34:28.560 --> 01:34:30.279 relationship. I'm like, it is, but it is also 01:34:30.279 --> 01:34:33.500 incredibly abusive. Like on a certain level, 01:34:33.539 --> 01:34:35.920 it is incredibly toxic and abusive. And I kind 01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:38.630 of really liked. That look back at everyone so 01:34:38.630 --> 01:34:40.329 you can see, yeah, every single one of these 01:34:40.329 --> 01:34:42.449 relationships is horrible and toxic and abusive 01:34:42.449 --> 01:34:44.949 and fucked up. And not one of them, you know, 01:34:44.949 --> 01:34:46.930 we romanticise in a tongue -in -cheek way, but 01:34:46.930 --> 01:34:48.869 not one of them should be something anyone aspires 01:34:48.869 --> 01:34:51.369 to have in real life because it's all horrible. 01:34:52.970 --> 01:34:55.170 Yeah, I feel like Caitlin and Devin got the closest 01:34:55.170 --> 01:34:57.590 to her happily ever after, but it's still, he's 01:34:57.590 --> 01:35:01.590 done some stuff to her. Yeah, it's pretty fucked 01:35:01.590 --> 01:35:04.970 up. A really random thought just popped in my 01:35:04.970 --> 01:35:06.409 head when you were kind of talking about how 01:35:06.409 --> 01:35:09.529 your series of books focus on a particular character 01:35:09.529 --> 01:35:12.489 or a couple of characters in each book. The thought 01:35:12.489 --> 01:35:14.430 that popped into my head was, yeah, it's like 01:35:14.430 --> 01:35:16.390 a really fucked up version of Bridgerton, isn't 01:35:16.390 --> 01:35:22.189 it? Oh my God, it is. I love that. I might steal 01:35:22.189 --> 01:35:24.649 that. I think I possibly had that thought before. 01:35:24.729 --> 01:35:30.000 It is like fucked up Bridgerton. Especially the 01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:31.479 first three because you're following the three 01:35:31.479 --> 01:35:33.260 brothers. It's literally just working through 01:35:33.260 --> 01:35:35.899 the family. I should have given them more brothers. 01:35:36.020 --> 01:35:37.300 There should have been five brothers. It would 01:35:37.300 --> 01:35:41.460 have made more sense. You've mentioned, as we've 01:35:41.460 --> 01:35:42.699 been talking, you kind of mentioned a couple 01:35:42.699 --> 01:35:46.079 of authors that you're friends with or kind of 01:35:46.079 --> 01:35:48.380 know through the work that you do. But if anyone's 01:35:48.380 --> 01:35:51.239 new to dark romance, pitch black type things, 01:35:51.319 --> 01:35:53.399 are there any recommendations that you would 01:35:53.399 --> 01:35:56.760 give people to start with? Your books, obviously. 01:35:57.349 --> 01:36:02.250 I think if you're new to dark romance, don't 01:36:02.250 --> 01:36:04.970 start with my books, unless you know already 01:36:04.970 --> 01:36:08.050 that you don't have many triggers. I think if 01:36:08.050 --> 01:36:10.989 you're new, one that I love to say, and obviously 01:36:10.989 --> 01:36:13.010 she's a huge author and she gets wrecked everywhere, 01:36:13.310 --> 01:36:17.649 is Chantal Tessier. So she writes The Lords. 01:36:17.750 --> 01:36:23.729 She's dark romance. They get progressively darker. 01:36:25.329 --> 01:36:27.680 There's a whole lot of... I guess it is kink. 01:36:27.680 --> 01:36:29.479 It's really hard to explain though because it's... 01:36:29.479 --> 01:36:32.859 Those books are interesting because there's a 01:36:32.859 --> 01:36:34.840 lot of sex going on and there's a lot of stuff 01:36:34.840 --> 01:36:37.640 going on and power dynamics and stuff. But at 01:36:37.640 --> 01:36:41.180 the same time, a lot of it is more coercive. 01:36:41.260 --> 01:36:44.319 But they're great books, I think. I think they're 01:36:44.319 --> 01:36:47.079 a great intro into dark romance and kind of understanding 01:36:47.079 --> 01:36:51.039 because they start off not too dark and then 01:36:51.039 --> 01:36:55.399 they get darker. But they're not... they're not 01:36:55.399 --> 01:36:56.960 pitch black. I think you've got to be pretty 01:36:56.960 --> 01:37:00.100 bold to go straight into pitch black unless you 01:37:00.100 --> 01:37:01.399 know that you're comfortable with it, unless 01:37:01.399 --> 01:37:05.300 you've read it. Someone else who I really love, 01:37:05.340 --> 01:37:07.520 she's not very well known, but I love her writing. 01:37:07.539 --> 01:37:09.500 I think she's amazing. It's Billie Jade Cormack. 01:37:10.260 --> 01:37:13.279 She's another British author. And she writes 01:37:13.279 --> 01:37:17.300 like, she writes like these really sassy, feisty 01:37:17.300 --> 01:37:20.880 females, but not in that, you know, when people 01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:24.380 write strong women and they're just, they just 01:37:24.380 --> 01:37:26.260 feel a bit cliche because all they do is snap 01:37:26.260 --> 01:37:27.760 back and they're just a bit bitchy and you're 01:37:27.760 --> 01:37:29.619 like that's not a strong woman doesn't have to 01:37:29.619 --> 01:37:32.600 always be bitchy like they don't have to she 01:37:32.600 --> 01:37:35.720 she writes them in a really like they're all 01:37:35.720 --> 01:37:37.340 her characters are flawed but they're flawed 01:37:37.340 --> 01:37:40.979 in logical ways and she writes really interesting 01:37:40.979 --> 01:37:44.859 characters and i just i really love her her books. 01:37:45.300 --> 01:37:47.159 Yeah, she's not that well known. She's got audio 01:37:47.159 --> 01:37:49.359 books as well. So yeah, I definitely recommend 01:37:49.359 --> 01:37:51.220 her if you're into, because she doesn't write 01:37:51.220 --> 01:37:53.359 big, chunky books either. So they're quite good 01:37:53.359 --> 01:37:55.500 for shorter books if you're like, right, I want 01:37:55.500 --> 01:37:57.720 a book that's not going to last months for me 01:37:57.720 --> 01:38:01.619 to get through it. Yeah, that's great. And are 01:38:01.619 --> 01:38:04.760 there any, this is a bit like kind of asking 01:38:04.760 --> 01:38:06.979 you to judge your kids or your pets, I suppose, 01:38:07.060 --> 01:38:09.319 but what's, which of your own books are you kind 01:38:09.319 --> 01:38:15.560 of most proud of? So this is, For me, the book 01:38:15.560 --> 01:38:18.840 that I'm so proud of, and it's really ironic 01:38:18.840 --> 01:38:21.000 because it doesn't sell very well at all, is 01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:26.560 Deliria. So Deliria is such a fucking problem 01:38:26.560 --> 01:38:29.039 book because, one, I got the words confused. 01:38:29.119 --> 01:38:32.739 So I got hysteria and delirium mixed up and came 01:38:32.739 --> 01:38:34.739 up with the word deliria, which is where the 01:38:34.739 --> 01:38:36.420 term comes from. I was like, this works, that's 01:38:36.420 --> 01:38:40.600 fine. But it's such an impossible book to market 01:38:40.600 --> 01:38:43.100 because... You start reading it thinking one 01:38:43.100 --> 01:38:45.199 thing is happening and then a couple of chapters 01:38:45.199 --> 01:38:46.859 in you realise it's something else and then you 01:38:46.859 --> 01:38:49.100 realise it's something... And I can't really 01:38:49.100 --> 01:38:51.100 say any of the tropes without giving away the 01:38:51.100 --> 01:38:53.340 entire plot and there's so many shock points 01:38:53.340 --> 01:38:57.840 where you're like, fuck off, fuck. But I love 01:38:57.840 --> 01:38:59.619 it because it's such a psychological head fuck 01:38:59.619 --> 01:39:03.220 that it doesn't sell very well because I can't 01:39:03.220 --> 01:39:06.100 do the... It's got, you know, Captain Prey or 01:39:06.100 --> 01:39:08.600 it's got... this or this or this. I can't put 01:39:08.600 --> 01:39:12.600 tropes to it without ruining the plot and ruining 01:39:12.600 --> 01:39:16.060 the reader experience. But I love the book. It's 01:39:16.060 --> 01:39:18.680 got two versions. It's got the soft version, 01:39:18.779 --> 01:39:21.159 which is the original version I wrote. And then 01:39:21.159 --> 01:39:24.739 I went on holiday and realised on holiday that 01:39:24.739 --> 01:39:25.939 I should have given it a completely different 01:39:25.939 --> 01:39:28.220 ending and messaged my editor and she was like, 01:39:28.300 --> 01:39:30.239 bitch, don't you dare. And I was like, I'll fucking 01:39:30.239 --> 01:39:34.800 do it. So then I wrote the hard version, which 01:39:34.800 --> 01:39:36.680 basically had like a few more extended scenes 01:39:36.680 --> 01:39:39.420 and then a completely different ending. And I 01:39:39.420 --> 01:39:42.720 argue, me being the fucked up person I am, that 01:39:42.720 --> 01:39:44.659 the ending on the hard version is the more romantic 01:39:44.659 --> 01:39:47.800 version. But the ending on the soft version is 01:39:47.800 --> 01:39:52.199 the traditional happy ever after. I've read the 01:39:52.199 --> 01:39:55.779 hard version. Is it worth reading for the other 01:39:55.779 --> 01:39:56.939 ending, do you think? Should I read the soft 01:39:56.939 --> 01:39:58.800 version as well? Or do you think the hard one's 01:39:58.800 --> 01:40:03.239 the best by far? I think the hard one's the best 01:40:03.239 --> 01:40:07.779 because, do you remember on Fred's, was it Fred's 01:40:07.779 --> 01:40:09.520 old book talk a few months ago, everyone was 01:40:09.520 --> 01:40:12.180 like, romance has to have a happy ever after, 01:40:12.260 --> 01:40:14.840 otherwise it's not a romance. And I got into 01:40:14.840 --> 01:40:16.479 a massive argument with people going, that's 01:40:16.479 --> 01:40:19.600 fucking bullshit, rah. And I can see why people 01:40:19.600 --> 01:40:22.199 say it, and I don't want to be controversial, 01:40:22.439 --> 01:40:25.220 but I think there is something incredibly romantic 01:40:25.220 --> 01:40:27.779 about not having a happy ever after when it's 01:40:27.779 --> 01:40:29.920 written the right way. And I know people are 01:40:29.920 --> 01:40:31.140 like, oh, but that makes it romantic tragedy. 01:40:31.699 --> 01:40:35.140 And I'm like, but then, you know, romantic tragedy 01:40:35.140 --> 01:40:38.439 is still, in my opinion, a romance. Like everyone's 01:40:38.439 --> 01:40:41.100 like, Romeo and Juliet is one of the greatest 01:40:41.100 --> 01:40:44.180 romances ever written. It's a tragedy, but it 01:40:44.180 --> 01:40:46.619 is still highly romantic. Like actually, it's 01:40:46.619 --> 01:40:49.520 the Roman ending, isn't it? Of actually, we all 01:40:49.520 --> 01:40:51.600 sacrifice ourselves in the way that Gladiator, 01:40:51.619 --> 01:40:53.460 if it had been any other ending in Gladiator, 01:40:53.560 --> 01:40:55.180 you'd have been like, that is absolute bullshit. 01:40:55.979 --> 01:41:00.909 And I think... sometimes with a love story a 01:41:00.909 --> 01:41:04.109 real love story it doesn't always end in sunshine 01:41:04.109 --> 01:41:07.869 and roses and actually not to ruin the plot for 01:41:07.869 --> 01:41:11.010 delirium but I think sometimes a realistic ending 01:41:11.010 --> 01:41:14.590 for me can be more romantic than that and they 01:41:14.590 --> 01:41:17.170 all lived happily ever after because that feels 01:41:17.170 --> 01:41:21.430 a bit yeah yeah I found the hard version really 01:41:21.430 --> 01:41:23.909 romantic and I think I don't like if something 01:41:23.909 --> 01:41:25.710 is pitched as a romance and ends in a breakup 01:41:25.710 --> 01:41:29.579 that That kills it for me. But other devastation, 01:41:29.619 --> 01:41:33.739 other forms of tragedy. Absolutely. Yeah. Interesting. 01:41:33.899 --> 01:41:35.439 Yeah, absolutely. You can't end it with them 01:41:35.439 --> 01:41:37.920 not being together. Like, that's bullshit. Yeah, 01:41:38.039 --> 01:41:39.720 yeah. I'll read people, like, getting tortured 01:41:39.720 --> 01:41:43.220 quite comfortably, but a breakup? Oh, no. Yeah, 01:41:43.260 --> 01:41:45.619 go fuck yourself. We're not having that. As long 01:41:45.619 --> 01:41:48.380 as they're together at the end. Yeah. However 01:41:48.380 --> 01:41:50.199 terrible it is, as long as they're together. 01:41:54.119 --> 01:41:58.979 Bet. So I think that is everything that we wanted 01:41:58.979 --> 01:42:00.619 to ask you. You have been absolutely incredible 01:42:00.619 --> 01:42:05.000 and given us so much. So thank you. If people 01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:07.140 want to find your books, if we haven't managed 01:42:07.140 --> 01:42:09.840 to scare them off with all of the many warnings, 01:42:10.039 --> 01:42:14.420 where should they find you? So most of my books 01:42:14.420 --> 01:42:16.939 are on Amazon. They're on Kindle Unlimited. If 01:42:16.939 --> 01:42:18.819 you have Kindle Unlimited, I highly recommend 01:42:18.819 --> 01:42:22.119 you... uh start on there because what i love 01:42:22.119 --> 01:42:23.640 about kindle unlimited is obviously you can start 01:42:23.640 --> 01:42:25.300 reading a book and if you don't like it you can 01:42:25.300 --> 01:42:29.979 dnf And you've not invested however much it is 01:42:29.979 --> 01:42:34.060 in an actual book. I'm also on Etsy. So if you 01:42:34.060 --> 01:42:37.020 like your shelf trophies, I have all my signed 01:42:37.020 --> 01:42:41.539 books on Etsy. And then I am currently updating 01:42:41.539 --> 01:42:44.819 my website because I'm going to start doing distribution 01:42:44.819 --> 01:42:47.600 where I can actually ship signed books better 01:42:47.600 --> 01:42:49.779 than with Etsy. And then I've got some really 01:42:49.779 --> 01:42:51.659 cool book merch coming and stuff like that. So 01:42:51.659 --> 01:42:54.760 that's a bit of a watch this space. But I would 01:42:54.760 --> 01:42:58.359 say I'm most... active on TikTok. So yeah, if 01:42:58.359 --> 01:43:01.119 you're on TikTok, feel free to follow me. That's 01:43:01.119 --> 01:43:03.579 where I post all my crazy videos. And then if 01:43:03.579 --> 01:43:06.100 I decide, like when I posted that video on the 01:43:06.100 --> 01:43:08.159 monster that you made of me, I put it up and 01:43:08.159 --> 01:43:10.720 then my PA was like, what the fuck is this? She's 01:43:10.720 --> 01:43:12.460 like, what the fuck is this book? And I was like, 01:43:12.520 --> 01:43:16.760 oh yeah, happy birthday. Surprise. So yeah, I 01:43:16.760 --> 01:43:19.199 quite often post on there and then even my editor 01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:21.859 or my PA is like, oh, for fuck's sake, because 01:43:21.859 --> 01:43:23.380 I just announced something that they didn't have 01:43:23.380 --> 01:43:25.989 a clue about. But yeah, I like to keep everyone 01:43:25.989 --> 01:43:28.890 on their toes. Amazing. I could just imagine 01:43:28.890 --> 01:43:30.489 them having a meeting, kind of watching your 01:43:30.489 --> 01:43:33.710 videos going, the fuck did she just say? Literally. 01:43:35.770 --> 01:43:37.890 That's literally how our meetings go. And then 01:43:37.890 --> 01:43:39.670 Breen, my PA, will sit there and go through stuff. 01:43:39.750 --> 01:43:41.270 She's like, you don't have time for this. And 01:43:41.270 --> 01:43:42.909 she's like, this is your schedule. And I'll be 01:43:42.909 --> 01:43:44.329 like, no, no, I can make it work. She's like, 01:43:44.470 --> 01:43:47.229 I am in charge here, not you. Okay, I'm sorry. 01:43:47.350 --> 01:43:51.199 Please don't yell at me. I will make sure in 01:43:51.199 --> 01:43:52.880 the description for the episode, I will include 01:43:52.880 --> 01:43:56.560 links to your website and your TikTok. And I'll 01:43:56.560 --> 01:44:00.140 put your Etsy store as well. Amazing. Yes. Yeah. 01:44:00.359 --> 01:44:03.840 Brilliant. So, yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, 01:44:03.920 --> 01:44:05.420 thanks so much for your time. Thank you so much. 01:44:05.579 --> 01:44:07.319 I was going to say, thank you so much for having 01:44:07.319 --> 01:44:10.199 me. It's been amazing. Brilliant. Awesome. Excellent 01:44:10.199 --> 01:44:29.819 stuff. Bye. See you next time.