Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizel's dominant who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we're going to be
talking about dark romance, pitch black and erotic
horror. And we have a guest. We do. Let the fangirling
commence. So welcome. Our guest today is Ellie
Sanders, who is an author. And I thought I would
start with the question everyone hates and ask
you to tell us a little bit about you and what
you do. Oh, amazing. I actually really like this
question because I feel like, oh, this is my
moment. So yeah, I'm Ellie Sanders. I'm a...
Absolute introvert. I'm going to spend my entire
life in a dark room if I could. And then for
some reason, whenever I'm talking about my writing,
it's like I flip. And I'm just like, yeah, I
can do this. This is amazing. So yeah, I write
dark romance and what I call pitch black romance.
So some people call it erotic horror. I, for
various reasons, have, I just feel deeply uncomfortable
calling mine erotic horror. But it does kind
of fit in that genre, if that makes sense. Yeah,
so that's me. awesome and that was something
I was going to ask about is where you would sort
of where you would kind of classify your writing
and I would say from my perspective at least
it seems like you sort of leaned darker as you've
gone on sort of started more in dark romance
and then gone into pitch black Yeah, that's exactly
what happened. So I, years and years ago, I started
writing fantasy or what I class as dark fantasy
or romantasy as it's now been relabeled. But
mine was always a little bit dark and no one
ever read it. And I was like, OK, this is clearly
not my genre. This is not working. And then I
wrote a series which I did zero research on and
should have really researched, which was more
dark romance. It had a lot of like BDSM elements
with... none of the research into the BDSM community
so it's absolutely diabolical and it thankfully
has been unpublished now honestly it's it's looking
back it's not a great series um but what I started
doing was writing darker and darker and it just
it's almost like I niched myself and found my
calling and it's it's really weird because I
kind of then got to a point where what I've been
writing to my penultimate book in the series
um for my current series uh called Deprivation
really like I don't know what it was about that
book, but that book really knocked me off my
kilter a little bit. And I was like, oh God,
I feel really, and normally I finish the book
and they're horrible. Like what happens in these
books is horrific. It's really horrible stuff.
It's not romanticized at all. These are nasty,
nasty books. But at the same time, normally I
finish, I'm like, yeah, this is great. It's unhinged.
And that one, for some reason, just really affected
me. So then the spinal one, I was like, right,
I need to kind of pull myself back a little bit.
although i've gone really really dark now i'm
gonna try and be slightly less dark um for the
next series just because i didn't think i had
a level and i'm like oh yeah there it is there's
my boundary okay yeah no that completely makes
sense i think much as they are incredible to
read i imagine inhabiting that world and the
headspace of the characters for long periods
of time the way you have to when you're writing
must feel like a lot sometimes Yeah. And I do
this thing. So the best way to explain it is
if you had like, I'm sure lots of people had
it, but if you had a method acting. So, you know,
like, yeah, I kind of do that a little bit of
my writing. I'm like almost like method writing
where I'm like, right, I'm fully in this headspace.
I am the FMC. I'm going through this. And the
way I write, I can I visualize the scene. So
it's like I'm living that scene. And that's how
I kind of get in the right headspace and pull
the emotions and do it all. And obviously, if
you're just writing a lot of non -con scenes,
after a while, that kind of takes effect. And
when you're writing the MMC, sometimes it's really
quite fun because you're like, yeah, I'm a complete
villain. This is great. And then after a while,
I was like, oh, God, this is all starting to...
actually kind of like made me not depressed because
I think that's too far of a stretch but it definitely
was starting to affect my mental health and my
poor partner he'd come home for work sometimes
and I'd be in the foulest of moods he's like
what's happened and I'm like oh yeah I'm in a
foul mood because I've just written this really
incredibly horrible scene and I can't switch
off from that I think sometimes it's like the
line blurs a little bit yeah how do you pull
yourself out of that when that sort of thing
happened I've become really old so I for one
I have a massive baby face so everyone thinks
I'm like mid -20s and it's like I wish um so
I'm I'm about to sadly hit 40 and I think maybe
just because I've got really old um I've got
really into gardening which i like i clearly
this is my thing so i'm on my facebook you know
you get like videos from other little facebook
pages and stuff all i get is like these people
with like they're growing their beautiful flowers
and their gardens and they're watering and i
just sit there i watch them like oh this is lovely
and it's all and then i I before we've we've
just got a puppy and she's kind of taken over
my life but before we got the puppy I get up
at half five every morning and I'd be listening
to lovely music and I'd be like watering I'm
like this is amazing and then I go write the
most horrific stuff but like mentally I think
that balanced really well I think it's just that
there's definitely an element of managing your
own headspace um and also like things like mindfulness
and I uh I sleep with um this meditation music
so all night all I'm hearing is this really lovely
meditation music so every morning I wake up and
I feel really great and positive and that I think
that that definitely helps me yeah yeah that
makes sense so what inspired you to start writing
dark romance and what has inspired the the kind
of darker turn yeah so for me um I like I think
a lot of people um I've had some really, what
I pass as unpleasant experiences in my life.
I didn't have a great childhood, sadly. And what
I found growing up was reading books that probably
weren't appropriate for my age, but reading books
and reading about this stuff, I found, like,
if you've been through something incredibly traumatic,
it can be incredibly isolating and it can really,
it makes you feel very lonely and very cut off
from the rest of the world because you feel like
no one else has been through it and it's only
you. And then for me, reading about these characters
that were going through similar things made me
realise that I wasn't the only person. And I
know it's kind of obvious when you say that out
loud as an adult, but as a child, you're like,
oh, OK, it's not, you know, it's not just me.
It's not a me problem. This is, it is bigger
than me. And then when I started reading Dark
Romance, when I, it sounds weird. So I have a
huge thing about imposter syndrome. I have this
massive, I think it's... part of my trauma that
I always have this thing where I never feel I'm
good enough and I was so scared about writing
this stuff because what I didn't want it to be
was gratuitous and I didn't want it to be glorifying
I was like I'm never going to do this justice
I'm never going to be able to write these scenes
in a way so I was very scared of writing this
stuff and then after a while I was like well
I've got to try it I've got to get these stories
out because I felt I was reading some of it and
some of it was maybe unintentionally but was
romanticizing it or not showing the psychological
side and for me when i'm writing all this stuff
for me it's really really important not just
to show the physical horror but also what that
does to a person psychologically and how it breaks
them um and so i try to always focus on the psychological
side and do that and actually particularly with
the brethren lords because the FMCs go through
absolutely horrifying situations and actually
they all evolve, they all change, and that is
a direct result of the trauma they go through.
And I think I just felt like it was, not to sound
cheesy, but it felt like this was what I needed
to do, like I needed to get these stories out.
And I know they're quite controversial. I know
some people really don't like these stories and
say some really horrible stuff. And I've been
on the receiving end of a lot of that. But I
do think they are definitely a niche. I don't
think these stories are for everyone. But at
the same time, I think there is a very needed
place for them. No, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah. And it's kind of a topic that we've talked
about with guests on the podcast before, kind
of who create all different kinds of content
and, you know, careers in Europe. content create
yourself on on TikTok so you get a little bit
of this kind of interested in talking about censorship
and stigma and how you how people kind of react
to their yeah to the works that you've done yeah
so I I had my first video go viral on TikTok
I think it was three years ago um It wasn't a
particularly controversial video, in my opinion.
It went viral. And as a result of that, like
a lot of women who've experienced when suddenly
there's a bit of attention on them, they get
the usual dick pics and the usual standard bullshit,
shall I say. And there was a part of me that
was like, oh, God, oh, this is really horrible.
And then I kind of sat myself down and was like,
look, I need to be able to, if I'm going to be
a writer, I'm putting myself in a public space.
If I'm not ready to deal with this attention,
I need to stop right now, stop the writing, step
back. This is not for me. And I just kind of
thought, I'm not going to do that. I want to
do this. I need to be able to manage this psychologically.
Otherwise, so I kind of thought, right, okay,
I'm just going to, that's it. This is my moment
where I'm like, I'm dealing with this from now
on. That's fine. And then as a result, I regularly
get death threats. I regularly, at least once
or twice a month, I get told that I deserve to
be raped. I deserve my family to be raped. I
deserve for us all to be murdered. I get told
that I should just do the world a favour and
kill myself. And to be honest, I can laugh about
it. Because that's how I deal with stuff. Like
I'm very black humor and very, you either laugh
or cry and I'm not willing to cry because I don't
cry about stuff. Probably not very helpful, but
quite often I reply to these people saying, you
okay, hon? Because I'm like, if you're willing
to send that level of something to someone else
on the internet who you've never met, then...
Clearly you've got issues in your life, whatever
they are. And I've had people that have been
messing with me going, why do you write this
stuff? And they've started off with a, you know,
you're disgusting, why are you writing this?
And then not saying I've changed their mind entirely,
but having had that conversation back with them,
they've kind of understood it from a different
perspective. And I think a lot of it comes down
to communication and people, people are very
black and white, aren't they? They're very much,
this is my lived experience. anything anyone
else has lived is not the same as mine and therefore
I'm right and they're wrong and I think sometimes
when you have that conversation around it you
can change someone's perspective not always but
I think yeah and I think there's a very needed
place for these books despite the hate for them
yeah it depends i think sometimes doesn't it
whether people are engaging in good faith whether
they actually want to understand your perspective
at least on some level or those people who go
straight in with a death or a rape threat it's
like they they are not here to learn they just
want to yeah they don't want to learn they just
want to send some hate um i get quite often because
i get a lot of it on tiktok and what i find really
amusing is what they'll do is they'll create
an account they'll send me a load of hate and
then they'll delete their account And I'm like,
wow, like I live that rent free in your head
that you've gone to that much effort. And it's
like that for me just makes me chuckle a little
bit. But it's like, OK, you like literally you
just wanted to send your anonymous hate to someone
and not have a reply. And it's like, OK, that's
fine. That for me, I'm OK with that. I'm comfortable
with that. If that's how you deal with whatever
you've got going on in your life. OK, that's
fine. Because it's not really aimed at me, the
individual. It's just they're angry at the world
and they've got to get that anger out. And that's
what it is. Do you ever get like sometimes on?
your tiktoks you will have um somebody will say
something negative and then somebody another
follower will kind of come along and kind of
leap to your defense kind of thing and i guess
that can it's a little bit like the good faith
bad faith argument isn't it that can go kind
of one of two ways either yeah everybody learns
something Or it's a complete shit show. Usually
with mine, it's a complete shit show. And there's
a part of me that's really honoured that fans
are like, oh, God, they're leaping to my defence.
I'm honoured that someone is wanting to defend
me. But there's a part of me that's like, please
don't, because then they are going to aim that
shit at you. And I'm comfortable. Do you know
what I mean? I'm comfortable with getting that
shit aimed at me. It doesn't affect me anymore.
But if someone else is suddenly getting a whole
load of messages. There was an Instagram post.
I think it was like two, three months ago, about
a fellow. She writes pitch black slash horror
erotica, as she labels it. And she wrote a book
that's got really, really, really controversial.
I'm, what I'd say, good friends with her. I'm
good friends with a lot of other authors because
I'm very much, you know, we're all in this together.
It's an incredibly lonely. space at Times Writing
and actually if we can help and bounce ideas.
So her name's Miranda Grant and she wrote what
is a very controversial book and people were
reading it partly because it got so controversial.
So it's about a coma patient and it kind of went
viral on TikTok. And people were reading it simply
just to kind of content, in my opinion, and to
be like, look, isn't this outrageous? It's disgusting.
And it's like, but that book was never meant
for you. That's not your, you know, you're not
that person to read this book. The controversy
around that book was how I discovered it, though,
which was great. I get my recommendations from
the hate. Yeah. Yeah. Keeping her under, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Keeping her under. Yeah. I've not
read the book. I probably should at some point,
but I'm. I'm very strict in my writing. Sorry,
I've gone on a tangent here, but I'm very strict
in my writing. If I write in, I will not read
someone else's book at the same time because
I don't want their voice to influence me and
I don't want to accidentally, not plagiarise,
but do you know what I mean? I just think if
I'm not looking at their stuff, there's no risk
of any crossover whatsoever. But yeah, I wrote
a little defence on someone's post about how
outrageous this book was saying, you know, this
book is very... targeted audience and you're
clearly not it and the amount of shit i've got
back for it and i was like this is exactly what
my readers or my fans must get when they reply
back to something on my post and then it's just
it's a shit show yeah it's an absolute shit show
it's just just as a bit of an aside is that the
book where she had to write all kinds of trigger
warnings because there was people saying, it
would have been great to hear more from the female
main character. It's like, she's in a coma. So
the page to buy it, it says she's in a coma like
multiple times on the page, yeah. She did this
really funny, what's the word, visual. I'm really
bad with words. I'm great at writing. I'm bad
at speaking. She did this visual where she's
got the cover of the book and then that's very
arrogant of me saying I'm great at writing, isn't
it? No, I fully agree. but she did this great
image where she had to pick the cover of the
book and then she had she's in a coma she's like
and she read it in so many different ways and
it was really like like she's in a coma how many
more times do you want that's why there's no
point of you because she's in a coma um yeah
so i think sometimes the the hate can end up
being it can do your marketing for you because
people who are your target audience We know that
if a book is blowing up and people are saying
it's really controversial and people are review
bombing it and things like that, we know it's
probably going to be what we like. So I guess
that's the bright side to it is the publicity.
That is definitely, yeah. And getting a banned
book is, it's interesting because everyone was
like, oh yeah, once you've got a banned book,
you've made it. And then obviously I had... I
had debt provision banned and that went from
like two seconds up like, ha ha, this is funny,
they banned my book to like, oh my God, this
is a complete fucking disaster. Because from
a logistical perspective, it was a absolute fucking
nightmare. But then actually on the flip side,
it's done really well and everyone seems to want
to read it. So I think with everything in life,
there's pros and cons. And I think, yeah, I think...
if you look at reviews i don't look at reviews
um any of my reviews because i'm like half the
people like this is the best book ever and half
the people like this is the worst book and it
you need to die and i'm like okay that's fine
you know everyone's entitled to their opinion
um but i think you can tell generally from reviews
where a book fits in your dark um what's the
word trigger list trigger list um on the on the
scope of like the level of darkness that you
want there we go you can tell from reviews roughly
where it sits so from a reader perspective reviews
are really really helpful i always find that
the trigger warnings at the beginning of these
kind of books absolutely fascinating because
yours are like pages and pages two or three pages
typically right i think i think the problem sometimes
is you can get a book that's quite light in my
opinion and it's got loads of trigger warnings
and it's like i can see why you've put that trigger
warning in but having like kidnapping there's
there's various different forms of kidnapping
there's nice kidnapping and then there is horrible
brutal kidnapping and i think sometimes people
had their trigger warnings to make their book
look more than it is and then you get to a book
yeah like deviant and they're like wow this can't
be that bad and then they're like this is the
most horrifying thing ever and it's like and
i i get a lot of people going i didn't take your
trigger warning seriously and i'm really traumatized
and i was like like i can't do more than tell
you to take them seriously like this book is
fucking horrible like be aware of it when you're
reading it so yeah yeah that's it i mean i'm
a fairly new fairly new arrival to the whole
genre really but as part of kind of doing a little
bit of research for for this i read deviant and
i was like wow that's there's that's that's a
lot um like they never even read like romanticy
like sort of vanilla smut nothing like that and
they went straight to jump in with as well yeah
yeah oh because you because you talked about
it so positively you're such a big fan of the
the yeah that series so it's like okay if i'm
gonna if i'm gonna talk to the author i need
to kind of understand a little bit oh my gosh
and then the realization no it was it was good
i enjoyed it i i yeah really i did did really
get into it but like understanding that that's
the probably the lighter part of the series it
kind of I know it gets darker as you go through
like wow honestly I wrote that book and I was
like right this is either gonna make me or get
me cancelled and I was like fuck it let's do
it let's see what happens and like the taxidermy
dick scene I was like oh so I'm really into vintage
taxidermy um there isn't any in this room but
almost like that sounds really creepy not my
bedroom because it's creepy to have dead things
in your bedroom but like I have You know, like
the Victorian arsenic type. Oh, I love it all.
I love. So I was like, right, I'm putting taxidermy
in and this is amazing. And I did so much research
into how to taxidermy skin. And I was like, this
is disgusting, but great. And then I didn't think
depravity was as bad as everyone said it was.
Like I like I know it's. it's dark but I didn't
think people like this is the most horrifying
thing and I was like okay um and then everyone
is like the next book that I've written everyone's
like god it gets darker and darker and I was
like does it maybe just maybe I'm too jaded now
like maybe it doesn't affect me anymore and then
deprivation came and kicked me in the ass um
I think it's the ending on deprivation that got
me because all the others the ending is so bleak
yeah it's so fucking bleak I have this thing
when I finish a book, I'm always like, right,
book's done, it's got to go to the editor. So
I then always go and do like a little celebratory,
go up to Costa, I've got a little Costa up the
road. So I go up there, I get myself a hot chocolate
and I get myself a little Cina Panini. And I
was like, and I went up there and I was like,
I need a cake. I need, like, this is not enough.
I need, like, I need something positive. Yeah,
that book is so depressing. I think out of the
series, Deprivation is my favourite, but the
ending is so bleak. And I think it's all the
bleaker for the fact that probably at about the
85 % mark, there is a spark of hope there. It's
like, this is still going to be pitch black as
hell, but it's Antonio's softening and the relationship
could develop into something slightly less horrific.
And then you pull rug. I think the thing is,
you get to that point and you're like, oh God,
because there's a point where they both kind
of... almost there is that positivity and you
think something is going to happen and then obviously
something happens which then creates something
which not to give it away but it and then you're
just like antonio you're a complete fucking twat
i just kind of want to get into the book i'm
like slapping but like what are you doing like
yeah and like sabotaging himself as well like
ruins it for himself as well as everyone else
yeah he does and it's like you're you're a grown
man like you're not even like grace is what 21
22 in the book like she's really young he's like
a 40 year old man like come on give her some
grace considering ironic but um um yeah like
she's gone through all this absolute horror give
her a little bit of time to get over it and you
could fix this and instead he's just yeah a piece
of shit absolute piece of shit you will have
to read it it's yeah you probably will I think
probably the most disturbing part of it was after
I finished reading it, we were kind of talking
about the characters and stuff like that. And
given the kind of kinks that we do and the dynamic
that we have, probably not massively surprising,
but you said the male main character kind of
reminds me of you. I was like, wow. Like a consensual
version, like a consensual version of Magnus.
But a consensual version of Magnus is hot. like
that is you know that is really hot and non -consensual
scary as fuck but it is it i think that is it
is exactly it's the consent that is yeah yeah
because we do a lot of like what sort of psychological
we do quite a lot of like psychological play
and sort of playing with conditioning and things
like that and that's exactly what magnus is so
good at like out of all of the the male main
characters that you've written he actually is
capable at it where someone like Conrad is very
much a blunt instrument he's like yeah he really
is because he thinks he's as good as Magnus he's
like yeah I can do this and then he's like fuck
it get the mallet I'm done yeah to the point
yeah Conrad is up next for you if you continue
the series in order Conrad is the next one you'll
meet yeah interesting okay he's the blunt instrument
um you mentioned that you had uh one of your
books deprivation uh banned um what happened
there one thing that i think happened and it's
been happening to a lot of authors recently is
i think amazon has done something with their
internal system whether it's ai bots or whatever
it is but there is something because a lot of
people's books are getting flagged um Some of
them unnecessarily, some of them maybe more,
what's the word, appropriately flagged. For me,
I think I've been dodging a ban for a little
while now. So when it happened, I was like, oh,
OK, like I didn't expect it. But at the same
time, I've been waiting for them to come out
and say enough, like you've enough. So it was
more the timing that I didn't quite expect it
when it happened. behind the scenes what happens
is when you get banned you get an email that
says you're basically we've done a content review
uh you go against our policy guidelines or the
content um guidelines and as such we're basically
we've blocked your book and then it has this
little bit that says if you can fix whatever
we will uh reconsider um With me, what happened
was, one, that email went to my junk, which was
rather unhelpful, because then I started getting
messages from people going, we can't get your
book, you can't get your book. And then I was
almost getting it. like live time that they were
getting it we're all going through this together
going oh shit where's the book and then I was
like right I'll go into what's called the KDP
platform which is the back end and there it just
had in really big red letters blocked and was
like oh shit okay that's why it's banned and
then I found that email and then I went back
to them and said can you just tell me what the
content is and they have never told me what the
content is to date they've not said specifically
what triggered it i have a suspicion so my my
books um the earlier books have not safe for
work art in them um but it's covered not safe
for work art in that it doesn't have boobs it
doesn't have the naughty bit showing so it's
naughty but it's not explicit naughty um i was
a bit lazy with deprivation in that the artwork
has her sitting on his lap and she's wearing
this like see -through sexy outfit thing but
you can see her nipples um And I think that is
one of the things that flagged because they were
like, well, those nipples were not, that's a
game over. So I replied back saying, if I remove
this art. will the book get passed and they basically
were like absolutely not um but then what happened
is they then unblocked it for some reason no
idea why they unblocked it it became available
for everyone again for about a day and then they
re -blocked it again and then they were acting
like it was me that had unblocked it and I was
like oh shit now I'm in big shit now because
they're like this is inappropriate and I was
like mate I haven't done anything like this was
you guys unblocking it um and I spoke to uh Do
you guys, have you heard of Lauren Bill? She's
a big US author. Yeah. I'm quite friendly with
her. She's been like, she's so helpful for advice.
So I message her all the time. And I messaged
her when it happened and said like, oh shit,
what do I do? Because she's had a whole load
of banned books. And her advice was, do not fight
the ban. She was like, absolutely do not fight
it. If you fight it, they will probably ban your
entire account and you'll lose everything. And
I was like, okay, fine. And there is a part of
me that feels... like I think that one there
is a place for these books and absolutely there
should be a place but there is a part of me that
feels like I can understand why they've banned
the book so it would feel a little bit bad faith
for me to go oh no why have you banned it because
actually the book is really fucking horrible
like what happens in the book is horrible and
if they feel it's inappropriate then I'm comfortable
with them making that decision but what I find
frustrating at times is these books are regularly
banned and actually what happens is you're silencing
this whole genre and actually for a lot of people
this genre is really important um but logistically
it was a flipping nightmare trying to get it
sorted because then obviously you have to find
a different printer and then you're like well
how do I get the distribution and all of that
um yeah so that was a good learning curve yeah
because I was gonna I was gonna ask about that
because as an independent author kind of amazon
feels on the one hand relatively straightforward
way of getting your content out there because
they will pick up a lot of that stuff for you
but also you're kind of fighting a giant that
is exactly it it's for me amazon is both been
the most incredible thing like in terms of an
author journey kdp is the easiest platform to
upload to the way they've done it is absolutely
beautiful because you can upload your books and
they bring up a proof and it's it's amazing because
it's so easy when they have the the monopoly
because of kindle unlimited um and it's been
like it's made my career it's been amazing but
the flip side is you're fighting and absolute
giant and they hold all the cards so if they
say we don't like this there's nothing you can
do about it they set the the page reads for kindle
unlimited um so february this year they dropped
so we get paid i think it's like 0 .001 something
or other per page read it's absolutely like it's
like not even pennies it's like points of pennies
per page read and in February they set so every
month they set the page reads in February they
set the lowest page reads and I think it was
like four years and then everyone's royalties
like halved because you're like well shit like
it's and they're still like obviously taking
their cut but there's nothing we can do about
it because they hold all the cards and you just
got to deal with what you got to deal with haven't
you you can't fight forever and you just got
to work with the situation you're in basically
yeah it's such a huge amount of power for a private
company to hold to essentially decide what is
and isn't appropriate to publish um because different
countries will have different laws about you
know some countries do restrict what you can
publish and what you can't but those are decided
over a period of time by a government that at
least in theory is completely democratically
elected it's to an extent a reflection of the
values of a society where a private company deciding
this is inappropriate for people to read there
is no there is no way that anyone can influence
that they can just do it and they can just change
their minds overnight which seems really scary
particularly when they have almost a monopoly
the way amazon do i think i think that's exactly
it and when you look at the world in the way
that it's going right now not to be political
because i i try to stay away from politics because
it's a horrible subject right now but um It's
scary to think someone has that much power and
actually if you had the wrong government in charge
and they made those decisions, they could censor
so much. Overnight they could flick a button
and that's it. And what do you do to fight that?
We as individuals would really struggle to fight
that and it's very 1984 and it's quite scary
when you think about what the power they have
and the potential of what they could do with
it if they used it. positively or is they used
it negatively well that's depressing yeah yeah
so what did you do about that because people
can buy deprivation So what I did, I was really
lucky in that I could pivot, set up an Etsy store
very quickly because I had the digital file and
Etsy is really good for selling digital things.
I basically straight away put it up on there
so then people could download it and get it that
way, which was brilliant. I can't do that with
my other books because they're in Kindle Unlimited
and that is a contract which means they have
to be. on Kindle Unlimited only. But then what
it meant is I had to source a publisher for the
physical books. So at the moment I use BookVault.
who've been amazing and it's a really streamlined
process in terms of uploading the the documents
getting a proof and then going yep this is great
and then I basically just order like 200 at a
time they arrive at my house and then people
buy it through Etsy and the complication I have
is that I have quite a few stores in the US particularly
and Australia who buy from me and and I basically
they they basically order the books from me and
then I ship them to their bookshop. But deprivation,
because it doesn't sit within the Amazon platform,
it is a fucking nightmare. and it shouldn't be
it should be really simple but right now it's
like i can't i can't ship that book to any bookshop
um and i think i've i was at them what's called
the self -publishing show last week um which
if you're an aspiring author or you are an author
oh my god it's amazing absolutely you have to
go it's i learned so much last week from it was
amazing and and i found a solution last week
to how to fix that which is fantastic but it's
brilliant The problem is physical books weigh
a shit ton and I can't have them printed here
and then posted there and then with tariffs and
it's, but it's all like little teething problems.
And now I know for decimation. So I am looking
at the way Amazon is managing decimation at the
moment in that you can't find it on Amazon. If
you put it in there, it's disappeared. You have
to go to the series link. and then the whole
way down to find it. So they've basically hidden
it. So I am very aware that that book is almost
certainly going to get banned as soon as it comes
out. There's also a couple of scenes in there
which probably mean it will get banned, which
I've tried to hide in the trigger warnings because
I was like, if I write, so there's certain things
like if you, on Amazon, if you write, so there's
big no -no's that no one should write. So obviously
children, that's disgusting. I don't write children
in any capacity because for me, that's a massive
trigger. Even if you're writing as a... a past
experience i i don't write that at all um bestiality
you can't write and then the other thing you
can't write is uh necrophilia so not to give
anything away on the final book but there's definitely
definitely a flag for this but it's not i don't
want to give away the scene but it technically
is necrophilia um So I think the book is banned.
Well, it hasn't come out yet, but I think it
will be banned. So what I'm doing already is
I've uploaded those files to BookVault. I am
already amassing my poor home. Basically, it's
lucky me and my partner, it's just us in the
house and two dogs. We don't have kids. Could
not handle. So this house just basically becomes
a store for my books and his tools and stuff
for his job. And yeah, amassing books because
I'm like, I'm going to do a pre -order. So when
people... with decimation because i i can see
what's going to happen it's going to get banned
almost immediately and then people will be like
well how do i get this book so what i want to
do is ship this book ahead of the release and
be a little bit sneaky but like if you want to
guarantee this book on the 21st of august i'll
do a different pre -order and then i can ship
it out so 21st of august either before that if
you're UK or if you're US or Australia where
it takes a bit longer to ship I will have it
to you at least on the 21st of August and do
it that way just to kind of yeah but it's yeah
it's all a bit of a learning curve yeah yeah
it's all a yeah yeah kind of figure out what
you do wrong the first time and make sure you
do it right the second time yeah yeah that's
fair and then they throw another curveball at
you yeah for fuck's sake Did it have a, this
is going to sound like a really strange question,
did it have a positive impact? Because there's
nothing like a banned book to get people interested.
Yeah, it definitely, especially on TikTok. TikTok
love a banned book. Something about crack cocaine
or something. So I had all these people messaging,
like, where can I get this book? Where can I
get this book? And I was like, fucking hell,
I'm trying. I do this thing where I get stressed,
where I rip at my hair, and my hair was like
this. And I was like, oh, my God, I have a state.
And, yeah, it had a really positive effect. Obviously,
it was incredibly stressful when it happened,
but actually the knock -on effect is I've sold
so much more. I think I've become a bigger name
because it's been banned. Yeah. And people have
wanted to read the book purely because it's banned.
Yeah. So, yeah, it's definitely been a positive.
Yeah. And then stuck around for the rest of the
series. Yeah. They're like, this is crazy. Let's
read the rest. Yeah. When Amazon bans a book,
does it disappear from people's Kindles? Because
I remember seeing some discussion about whether
that was happening or not. yeah officially it
does i think a few people got lucky and it didn't
um so what happens is when you buy a kindle file
i didn't know this but when you buy like not
kindle unlimited but an actual like kindle book
um you don't actually own that book you own I
think it's like the right to read that book or
something. It's really cleverly worded. So if
a book gets banned, they basically just remove
that from your Kindle, even though you've paid
for it. And I think a lot of people that had
bought that book didn't even get a refund, which
for me was the thing that pissed me off the most.
Yeah. Because there is like a limited time in
this world and we have a limited amount of money.
you know if you don't get the book then you should
at least get the what was it 4 .99 back to buy
a different book like that's really unfair to
take that money and not give the product um so
what i have got a policy for decimation when
it comes out is if someone has bought the kindle
file and it does get banned and they lose it
if they can show me proof of purchase i'm sending
them a free book Because I'd rather do the right
thing and make sure people have the end product
than screw people over, even though it wasn't
me doing it. Do you know what I mean? For me,
conscious -wise, I'm all about doing the right
thing for people. Yeah, so that was really unfair
the way people... And there was this work around
where if you put your Kindle in airplane mode...
if it hadn't disappeared if you put your kindle
in airplane mode basically it couldn't connect
to the server so then you could read the whole
thing and then as soon as you put out of airplane
mode it would disappear but i was like this is
a workaround guys like everyone put your kindle
in airplane mode read the book And then obviously
it disappears, but at least you've got your money's
worth from it. So, yeah. Yeah, I was so relieved
when that happened that I was an advanced reader
for that one. So I had it. I was safe. But I
saw loads of comments of people saying, is it
going to disappear? And I was like, oh, God,
I'm so glad that I've already got it. Yeah. it's
just it's all the little things as well that
add to it and it's really unfair as a reader
and an end user to have that happen because it's
not your fault if a book gets banned it's yeah
you know you've bought a product you deserve
the product so yeah and it's again that having
so much power with a private company like it
just feels like such a common sense thing that
if they're going to withdraw it from people's
kindles they should be refunding them but obviously
they're not going to do that if if they're not
forced to because they get to keep their money
so yeah i think a few people challenged and they
got their money back but i think if people didn't
know to challenge but it's it's unfair that you
should have to again take that step and it's
not just an automatic okay here you go refund
yeah i think you've probably touched on a few
things i suppose but kind of thinking about other
people who are well either getting into writing
or already kind of established authors is there
any advice that you would give for dealing with
the things that we've talked about that response
that you get from the public dealing with amazon
and things like that i think the biggest thing
and it's it's something you have to learn is
how to have the thick skin and how not let stuff
affect you and i can sit here now and say this
to you and then go cry in the corner so it's
i think it's and it affects a different point
so like right now I'm in I'm in a really horrible
emotional space because my beautiful dog bless
him died in March and I still I don't know I've
never been affected like this sounds awful like
this before like I've never lost someone before
this is my first real experience of grief and
it is like it's nuts the way I'm just constantly
crying and I'm not a crier um so I think there's
certain moments You have to be kind to yourself
and you have to realise there are times when
you can laugh it all off and be like, ha ha,
this is really funny. And there are times where
just one message is enough to make you go into
an absolute spiral. And I think sometimes it's
also important to sit there and kind of think,
well, why is this affecting me like this? Like,
why is this one message really? And recognising
writing can be incredibly lonely and it can be
emotionally very draining. and it's a case of
um just making sure you protect yourself and
your mental health and I read this beautiful
thing where it was like make yourself fall in
love with the life you have And I was like, I
really like that because I went through some
horrible medical stuff a few years ago and was
in a really shit place because of that. And I
was like, God, my life is really shit. And I
was so lucky the NHS was there and helped me
and I had my surgery and everything has been
great since. I'm in such a great place now. I'm
pain free. I've got all this positivity going
in my life. So, yeah, if I want a little cake,
then I'm going to have that because that's the,
do you know what I mean? And it is about falling
in love with the life you have and looking at
what you've got with gratitude and being... that
sounds really cheesy but being grateful for what
you have but also there is a huge thing about
protecting your space so um i am a closet people
pleaser because of the way i was sadly brought
up and went through shit and that my theory is
if i'm really nice to someone then might not
hurt me so much which is something that i'm trying
to reteach myself out of because that's not a
healthy healthy way to live um but also i think
a lot of authors um they try and help other authors
they try and and sometimes there's an element
of you're spreading yourself too thin and you
need to make yourself the priority um and this
year i've been which i kind of hate because i
don't i've got so many author friends and they're
amazing i want to help and support them as much
as i can but also i've recognized that i am spreading
myself too thin with other people and i need
to pull myself back And also, there is always
drama on BookTok. You go on Friends and there
is always someone kicking off about something
that someone's done and it's wild. And then on
BookTok, there's always, and the secret is not
to get involved. So I've got this new phrase,
which is, everyone's probably heard of Not My
Circus, Not My Monkeys. Yeah, we both like that
one. Yeah, and you know when you're like halfway
through typing and you're like, what the fuck
am I doing here? Like, no one cares about my
opinion. Delete this. Come out of it. Don't get
involved. And that's been a retraining of my
headspace to be like, stop picking every fight.
Like, not every fight is for you. And I think
there's so many of us that become, what's the
word? Keyboard warriors. And, you know, whether
you're not necessarily being a troll, you're
just like, actually, I want to defend this person.
I want to, you know, this situation's awful.
I want to say something. But actually... what
are you getting back from that because all you're
doing is giving energy and then someone else
is going to come and start arguing with you and
then you're escalating something when actually
yeah yeah it's wild the world is wild yeah we
say that to each other quite a lot don't we well
i say it to you quite a lot with the frustrations
you have at work it's like this is not your circus
those are not your monkeys yeah it's just a job
i sometimes struggle to internalize it i tend
to make the monkeys my monkeys that's my problem
oh yeah i get i get that a lot it's nice once
you kind of get to the point where you're like
fuck it not just fuck it and that's a really
nice headspace to get into but it's it's hard
to get into that headspace so how long of wow
this is a bit of a stupid question i was gonna
ask you how long have you been reading like what
the fuck was that even as a question reading
like forever but reading these kind of books
not as not as long as a lot of people I think
I I used to have a lot of shame around being
interested in in reading that kind of thing and
a lot of shame around like the kinks that I have
as well so that took me a long time to get over
started exploring kink in my 30s but the shame
about reading dark stuff persisted for longer
um so probably about about three years ago started
reading dark romance and always had the thing
of finishing a book being like that was good
but it could be darker that could be good but
it could be darker and deviant was actually the
one that i found i was like no this this is what
i'm looking for and then i discovered like miranda
grant and lauren beale as well and various others
and have found like now now i know to search
for either pitch black or erotic horror i know
how to find the stuff that is actually what i'm
looking for yeah this is how i felt reading like
when i first started i was in my teens i was
reading this shit that was definitely not appropriate
for a teenager but i was like this is what i'm
going through and it's good to read it but it
wasn't delving enough if that makes sense like
it wasn't getting into it felt like it was too
brushing over what was happening it was it wasn't
getting into the emotional enough um and yeah
when i found dark romance as it is now so like
haunting adeline and all those kind of books
i was like yeah fucking hell finally like there
is you know this is more mainstream because it
felt like a dirty word and it felt like if you're
writing this stuff it felt like there was something
wrong with you and if you're reading it then
there was something wrong with you and it was
this horrible taboo and now thankfully it feels
like it's not so much of a taboo and it's people
are starting to understand why there is a need
for it it's yeah I hate that you felt shame about
it though because it's unfair it's it's shit
it's really fucking shit got there in the end
though I think like The thing that has taken
me a while is like telling people what I read.
That feels way more personal than telling people
what I do. I've been talking about my kink life
on the internet for about four years. But up
until maybe three months ago, if people asked
me for recommendations of the kind of stuff I
read, I'm like, no, no, I'm not telling you that.
That's a secret. So doing this episode is great
exposure therapy for me because everyone's going
to know at least one series that I've read. Yeah.
I don't tell people what I write. Most people
who know that I write think I write meals and
boons. But this is kind of where I struggle with
people I know reading my stuff, because I feel
that shame that you were saying, that's the same.
And it's unfair that we should feel that shame.
But at the same time, it's, yeah, it's weird,
isn't it? Because it's like, I'm proud of what
I've achieved. I'm proud of what I've written.
you know there is a need for these books so why
do I and like at SBS last week when people were
like oh what do you write I went oh I write and
I'm like why am I cringing like I'm proud of
what I fucking do I go on TikTok every day I
show my face so why why do I have this kind of
like oh and I don't know I need there's some
therapy i clearly still need in my own shame
is so pervasive and you can't just logic your
way out of it i i sort of deal with it by kind
of forcing myself to tell people things because
once i've done it that always takes some of the
power out of it but that doesn't always make
it easy it's it's very much a process and i think
there's something about like what you write what
you read what you fantasize about things like
that are so intensely personal not just not just
this kind of stuff like even just reading like
a you know a kind of standard novel the things
that make you feel something and make you want
to read them tells people something about you
and i think that's that's sometimes challenging
to share i think that's exactly it yeah one of
the things that i imagine draws a lot of people
to your books and certainly drew me to your books
was um having a safe space to explore those kind
of ideas where no one gets hurt and there's no
consequence is that something that that you would
say is kind of the The draw for most of your
readers, is that what it's about? Yeah, absolutely.
I think for me, when I first started as a reader,
I could almost process what I had gone through
in a way that I could walk away. If it got too
much, I can throw the book. I can, do you know
what I mean? I can shut the book. I can throw
the book. I can burn the book if I want to, if
it's too much. But I'm not, I'm also processing
what I went through with my books. I think for
a lot of people, there's a curiosity maybe about
some of the scenes because obviously no one hopefully
is ever going to get attacked with a taxidermy
dick. So that's kind of like, oh, okay, that's
morbid curiosity, if you will. But I think for
a lot of it, it is a type of therapy, reading
these books and going, actually, maybe I didn't
experience all of this, but I experienced certain
moments of this. And actually... there is I think
it is that safe space around it um and for me
writing it when I first started writing it I
wrote so many stories that I haven't published
so many little scenes I was like I'm just going
to write this horrible horrible scene down and
it was cathartic for me to kind of get all this
shit in my head out and onto paper. And I think
for me, it felt at first like this is my safe
space. No one's seeing these words. No, I'm never
going to publish that shit. But at the same time,
I need to get all of this crap out of my head
and down. And like a therapist told me, you know,
read these books. They literally did say read
these kind of books because for some people it
works, some people it doesn't. And if someone
tries to read it and finds it triggering, absolutely,
it's not working for you. Don't do it. But for
some people, they will find it. It does work.
It does provide that safe space for them to process
and heal, which is really what these books are
about. I mean, they're fucking horrible, but
at the same time, there's a need for them in
terms of people's experiences and what we've
gone through and trying to get over what we've
gone through. Yeah. Do you find there's a lot
of crossover between people who read your books
and people who engage in kinks like CNC, for
example, where they are, again, sort of reliving
or experiencing things in a way, but... in a
way that is controlled. Yeah, absolutely. I think
C &C is one of these things that's really misunderstood
for a lot of people because if they've not gone
through that trauma, they're like, either they're
like, oh yeah, it's really fun and really sexy.
And it's like, well, it can be, yeah. When it's
done right, like the key thing is the C. I think
a lot of people have curiosity around C &C. I
think like you've got books where they've got
it and they've shown it in a way that's quite
fun and quite playful. And then you've got books,
like one book that I wrote, Reckoning, where
it's consent, non -consent. But it is very close
to non -consent because that's how she's processing
her trauma. That's what she needs. That's how
they heal together, the MMC and the FMC. I love
that one, by the way. So good. That book for
me was healing. Like I felt really that book
holds such a special place. And then when I published
it, I was really worried everyone would hate
it. And the reaction really helped me as well
because I felt like it put so much of me into
it. But I think CNC is one of those things where
it really is. a crossover for people because
you've got the people that are curious about
kink and that one it's a really interesting kink
to read about and then you've got the people
that feel that shame and they're like oh no this
feels but it's it's not it's not NC it's not
non -con therefore it's okay to read this and
it's kind of I feel like it's almost to use the
wrong word a gateway drug and people read it
and they kind of do you know what I mean like
it opens their mind and I go okay actually I'm
really curious about this. Now I'm going to start
reading more about this stuff because I read
that and it felt okay to read that. And I was
comfortable reading that. Therefore, I'm going
to try and explore more. Yeah, I think CNC particularly
is one of those ones that is, it's a really powerful,
when it's written right, it's really powerful.
Yeah, I find for me personally, there's a lot
of crossover between reading sort of really dark
fiction with a lot of non -consent in it. And
CNC is something that I do within our... relationship
and in previous relationships as both a way of
sort of eroticizing dark feelings and having
like that makes it feel safer but also is just
a cathartic release it doesn't always i think
people always think it's just about it being
a turn -on and it can be but it it doesn't have
to just be that it can meet so many different
needs and i feel like dark fiction does does
the same thing yeah i think i think particularly
if you've been through a really horrible traumatic
experience If you're with a partner that you
feel safe and you've had that conversation and
your role play in CNC, I think it can be incredibly
empowering, actually, to know that at any moment
you can say stop. Do you know what I mean? You've
got that power. And I think it's really healing
when it's done right. I think it can be really,
really healing. Yeah. Having a safe space to
be a mess for a bit is such a powerful part of
that. Yeah. Do you think... People being able
to not just read this stuff, but know that there
are people out there writing it and enough other
people out there reading it, that there's a market
for it, helps with the shame as well. It helps
people feel less alone with those kind of thoughts.
I think it definitely does. I think that's partly
why there's been such an explosion in dark romance
over the last... I mean, obviously, it's coincided
with TikTok getting so big, but dark romance
has got huge. You've got all these famous books
with particularly dark scenes going on. And then,
obviously, Pitch Black and Horror at Watakura
has come along. And I think... It's really helped
people deal with the shame because if it's just
you in your home and you feel like this is me,
I'm a weirdo, then all those internalised shame
come. But if you're reading about it and it's
normalised, then you think, you realise that
you're not a weirdo. There's nothing wrong with
you. There is a spectrum and some people are
completely vanilla. Some people are... completely
the other side and actually it's just finding
your place and where you're comfortable and what
works for you and what doesn't work for you and
I think it has really really helped reduce that
level of shame and I think it's it's it's brought
it out into the open where people can have those
conversations with their partners in a way that
maybe before they wouldn't and they would have
just suppressed that part of themselves and gone
okay it's fine i'm just going to be normal um
in inverted commas whatever that is do you know
what i mean i'm going to play this part and i'm
going to repress this part of myself and be this
person and feel like there is a part of them
that actually doesn't um reflect who they are
and they can't be themselves fully and i think
dark romance has really really helped break down
that shame and i think it's really empowering
particularly for women to be able to feel they
can be exactly who they are sexually And that
it's okay to be sexually whoever they are. And
that actually you shouldn't just have to be missionary
or whatever it is. You can be, you know, if you're
into certain kinks, then you should vocalize
those kinks and have that healthy conversation
with your partner. And yeah, be who you want
to be. Yeah. Do you think a lot of people use
these kind of books as a jumping off point to
talk to partners about things they want? And
yeah. Yeah. i can see you smiling yeah yeah because
i i'm on quite a few facebook groups and i try
not to comment on like um like the facebook uh
like dark romance groups and stuff like reader
groups and i try not to comment too much because
in my opinion it's a reader space so i don't
really want to uh come in there and be like oh
hi i'm an author um but i see people all the
time saying um can you wreck a book that's got
this and this in it me and my partner want to
try this or I want to show my partner what this
is and then you get all these other girls that
are like saying oh not necessarily girls now
which is lovely you get all these people because
it used to be primarily a female genre and now
you see so many more men reading it which is
really great to see actually it's not just a
female thing um but yeah you see all these people
commenting and saying oh yeah I use this book
and me and my partner tried this with this book
and it's like yes this is exactly like obviously
in books It's fictionalised. It isn't necessarily
as researched as well. You're not seeing some
of the more boring side of it. But at the same
time, if someone can read a scene and think,
wow, that's really sexy, I want to play this
with my partner, and then go talk to their partner
and their partner's going, yeah, you're right,
actually, I can do this with you. I think it's
a great way to try it and test it in a safe way
that they know exactly what the boundary is because
they're just doing that one scene. And I think
it's... I think it's a really good way for them
to access and, yeah, try different kinks and
try things that they're curious about in a safe
space. Yeah, I've definitely had a few kink -unlocked
moments reading books, and it's good to know
it's not just me. Yeah, I've also had a few trigger
-unlocked, so I was like, I would never have
said that was a trigger, but OK. But, yeah, you
know, when you read something, you're like, why
is this really hot? And you're like, oh, oh,
OK. I would never have pegged me down for interested
in that, but that's OK, OK. So, yeah. And then,
bless my partner, he doesn't really read. So
I'm always like, for fuck's sake. He's going
to read. I've tapped the bits. Just please go
and read that bit and then come back to me in
half an hour. Yeah, I just info dump on you after
I read something particularly spicy, don't I?
Yeah, yeah. You do. You do. Yeah. And I usually
have that kind of initially horrified face of
going, oh my God, what have I just heard? And
then start to think about it and be like, hmm.
hmm how can we that's that that's become interesting
yeah like what's like the safer more consensual
version of that that doesn't hospitalize anyone
let's yeah yeah yeah can we take this remove
the dangerous bits and then yeah exactly yeah
yeah You come along like the feral gremlin with
all the ideas and I'm the one going, right, so
how do we do this in a way that keeps you out
of hospital and me out of jail? You're the project
manager. Yeah. That's what you are. You're the
creative director. You're the project manager.
Yes. Okay, let's teamwork. You know what? I love
that. I'm stealing that to drive us into future.
One of the things that we sometimes do. uh on
our podcast is that we will review a film we'll
watch a kinky film or a kink coded film and then
we'll do a bit of a review of it and one of the
things that we keep coming back to is about how
kink is represented in media um so i suppose
just kind of picking up on what we were talking
about before kind of really interested in in
kind of your take on that and what kind of research
you do when you're developing your books so i
I have a bit of a love -hate relationship with
how kink is shown in media. Generally in books,
it's shown really well, is what I'd say. I think
some books or some movies like Fifty Shades of
Grey, less well. But I think it's done in a way
that is sensationalised because it's to make
money. For me, I'm all about research. Like,
I'm a massive... massive geek part I will research
the hell out of something and know all the useless
like my brain just seems to love useless facts
and I will learn even if it's not relevant to
the story anymore like oh I'm not gonna write
about that I still want to know all the research
how exactly it works because what I'd hate to
do and what I have done in the past is I've written
a book that was completely incorrect complete
bullshit and then people that actually were in
the BDSM lifestyle were like this is fucking
bullshit and I was like oh and I So that series,
my first series I published, it was called the
Blackwater series and I've unpublished it because
it basically was like, oh, I can do a 50 Shades
of Grey, did fuck all research, wrote this absolutely
diabolical series and was like, oh, isn't this
fun? Ha ha. And then people were like, the fuck
is this? And I was like, yeah, you're right.
This is complete fucking horseshit. So I unpublished
it because for me, it's really important. It's
really important to do it right. Like I get you're
not going to write in a fictional book everything
that happens in kink. You're not going to write
about all those conversations that need to happen.
You're not going to write maybe about all the
consent and all that stuff. because it's maybe
not as glamorous or as sexy in the book and you've
got so much of a word count that you want to
keep the story moving. But at the same time,
you need to write it in a way that doesn't sensationalise
the parts that aren't healthy. BDSM community
is, from my understanding, so I'm not part of
a BDSM community. I've definitely got some kinks.
Because of my past trauma, it's hard to work
through a lot of all of the shit. that I have
and figure out if that's actually a kink or what
the fuck that is um so I try not to label what
I am or any do you know what I mean it's kind
of yeah um yeah and but for me it's very important
to to show in books what is realistic and what
is genuine and obviously when you're writing
things like non -con non -con is very different
to to cnc they are different things and i think
it's really important as an author to do your
research and represent in the same way that you
wouldn't want to write a stereotypical character
from like a stereotypical russian okay they eat
water and they drink vodka do you know what i
mean like you would have write a character like
that because it's so stereotypical bullshit in
the same way and be the sm community you don't
want to stick to stereotypes you want to make
it genuine you want to do your research um I
do struggle when I read other people's books
and I feel like they haven't done their research
or they're kind of not representing it in the
same way. And I'm very like, I'm just going to
DNF them because I feel like if they haven't
done their research, unless the story is really,
really good and compelling for me, that breaks
the spell. So I feel like part of the telling
a good story is knowing all your background.
So like The Brethren, I've got this whole ridiculous
history that goes back to the 12th century, which...
No one needs to know. It's irrelevant to a story
set in the modern world. But for me, I know it
all. I know it. And it's kind of that I feel
like an author should have maybe not that extensive
background, but if they're going to write about
a topic, they should know that topic really well
to be able to do it justice. I could be remembering
this completely wrong, but I think I saw like
maybe on one of your socials or it might have
been in the acknowledgements of one of your books.
You've got a family member who's a doctor who
you go to for research sometimes. Is that right?
Bless her. I have a sister who's a doctor and
I will drop her messages being like, if this
happened and you decapitated someone on this,
how would the body react? And she'll be like,
for fuck's sake. She is the most... I love my
sister. She's amazing, but she is the most straight
-laced. Like, her idol is Kate Middleton. No
exaggeration, she models herself on Kate Middleton.
So that gives you an idea of what she's like.
And then there's obviously me, who's like a clusterfuck
of whatever the fuck I am. And she's just like,
what? Like, she doesn't read my books. She doesn't
really read, bless her. She asked me ages ago
to curate a library for her because she had...
She'd moved into a new house that had a library
space and she wanted to look very erudite and
well -read. And so I had so much fun because
I did a literature degree. So I bought all these
books, like proper, really, you know, like Booker
Prize books and filled her library so she looked
like the smartest person in the room. And then
apparently all her friends were asking about
all these books and which ones she liked and
she didn't have a fucking clue because she's
not read any of them. So that's my sister. She's
great. But for medical knowledge, she's... she's
helpful I also have um my my mother -in -law
is a nurse I was a nurse she's just retired but
she was a a cancer a head and neck cancer specialist
nurse um I'd go to my mother -in -law and she'd
be like hmm well and then she'd sit there and
she'd like bounce the idea back and forth with
me and I was like yes this is the relationship
everyone needs with their mother -in -law if
they're like right if we're gonna lobotomize
someone and she she was amazing so yeah yeah
Meanwhile, your partner is sitting in the corner
going, remind me not to piss either of those
people off. Yeah, that literally is a runny joke
in his family of like, actually, just be careful
because, yeah, you don't want to piss her off.
So you said you feel quite a sense of responsibility
to kind of do the research, make sure that what
you're portraying in your books is accurate.
On the other side of that. Do you think people
are reading your books, reading the stuff that
you write and using that as education? I really
hope not. Some of it. The Brethren Lords, I hope
they're not. I want people to read my books and
be educated because it's not... But at the same
time, like especially the Brethren Lords, I felt
like I needed to show what rape and torture and
all that shit does to a person and the psychological
side. And I kind of... With every bit that I've
written where that happens to a character, I
wanted to show logically and not in a way that's
kind of like, oh, yeah, they woke up the next
day and they were fine and everything was great.
Because that's not what happens when people go
through traumatic experiences. So I felt like
there is an obligation for me to show that kind
of educational side without it feeling educational
or feel like I'm giving a sermon. Yeah. I think,
again, it's got to be a balance, hasn't it? Because
if it's too research heavy, too kind of down
that line, then you lose the fun of the story
and you lose the momentum. And it's kind of all
about balancing it all and making it work. Yeah,
that's often how I feel is that balance needs
to be right when I... sort of read this kind
of stuff i can overlook some sort of skimmed
over consent conversations if it's a like a consensual
kink book i can skim over some minor medical
inaccuracies if it's either kink or or sort of
torture going on um i mean like for example i've
i've been branded and i've been waterboarded
so when i read those scenes i really know whether
they're right um in a consensual way in a fun
way um yeah so like i sometimes do see little
things and i'm like that's not quite spot on
but also this is fiction i'm i'm reading this
for fun i'm not expecting it to be perfect but
if it's completely massively apart from it or
if it's presenting it as this is how you do a
healthy kink relationship and then it's toxic
and messy like 50 shades was sort of portrayed
as this like big sweeping romance and it's like
no this is an abusive relationship if you wanted
to write an abusive relationship like do that
yeah that's when i that's when where the line
is i think for me Yeah, I agree. I think for
me, it's where the magic, if that's the right
term, breaks. And especially, like, I've read
scenes where the woman's given birth and then
the next day she's having sex. And I'm like,
she's just pushed a baby out of her vagina. She's
not having sex. And it kind of, it feels like
plot flaws. And it's like, if you fail to kind
of write that logically, then the rest of the
story falls apart and it doesn't work for me.
Yeah. It is really tricky because we talked a
couple of times about Fifty Shades of Grey and
quite rightly it is the criticisms of it are
justified. But some of the really basic things
that people complain about it getting wrong are
about kind of consent and negotiation. And I
kind of think, yeah, if that was an educational
resource about how to get into a DS dynamic,
I could understand that point. But it's entertainment.
Yeah. as fun as consent and negotiation is for
us and as important as it is to us it's not particularly
scintillating on the screen or on the page i
agree yeah i absolutely agree but then you've
got um what's the book praised by sarah kate
and obviously that's not a particularly dark
book at all but it's it's um salacious players
book one and it's set in this kink club and he's
a dominant and he's all in like oh i can't remember
that someone if anyone's listening to this they'll
be like you have got this all fucking wrong but
basically he's really he's really into like dominant
submissive in a healthy way and she's his son's
ex -girlfriend and basically she kind of starts
working for him for whatever reason um and then
obviously there's some tension between them and
she realizes what's going on and she goes off
and she gets the like she researches bdsm and
she gets the consent form or whatever it is form
that she downloads from some kink website and
it's got like tick what you're interested in
tick what you yeah yeah and and the way she writes
it is really clever because she writes it in
a way that you don't think all right this is
because you've done your research and you want
to show a safe bdsm community she writes in a
way that actually makes it quite fun and i think
there's a way you can do it that you know you're
not going into all the nitty -gritty but it does
show it quite well But then also on the flip
side, I completely agree with you in that Fifty
Shades of Grey is entertainment. It's a bit of
a laugh. And actually, I sat there on a day when
I feel sorry for myself and I'm recovering from
surgery or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, I'm
going to put this movie on and I'm going to sit
here and eat shit and watch this movie. And actually,
it is a fun thing to watch, even though you acknowledge
so much about it is not right for the BDSM community.
And I think. you can't always now i'm going back
myself you can't always write everything correctly
you can't always have everything that is purely
written in a way that makes sure you tick all
the boxes because then you lose the entertainment
so i think it everything is all i keep going
back to this but it is all a balance isn't it
and it's finding where that line is and that's
the skill in writing well i guess is having that
balance right definitely a certain amount of
reader responsibility as well I think is if you
read something in a book and you're like this
is hot I want to do it at least doing a quick
google first to make sure what you read in the
book was was right yeah yeah yeah the thing that
bugs me is when you're reading a scene and the
girl's never had anal before and then they go
straight for it no prep no nothing and I'm like
that is not how it works at all just just make
that one thing in almost every book just a little
bit more realistic unless you want it to be horrible
like i've done it in my book so it's horrible
but then if you want it to be you know if you're
trying to write it as a sexy thing between consenting
adults just just make it a little bit better
like come on yeah yeah a degree of realism i
think would help yeah with that sort of thing
yeah and it doesn't have to be like boring so
like with anal as an example you don't want to
have like a full chapter of someone like douching
and you know gradually training and stuff for
a couple of weeks beforehand like you don't you
can skim over some of that stuff but acknowledge
that it's happened briefly um yeah and like at
least have some foreplay yeah yeah absolutely
yeah yeah there's an art to saying it in a way
that would show it really well without You know,
making it realistic without making it brutally,
boringly realistic. Thinking about the characters
in your book, are there some positive things
that people could learn from them? The listeners
won't see this, but the look on your face then
was a treat. It's hard because... Obviously,
the Brethren Lords, most of the women are absolute
angels and they get put through the most horrendous
stuff and they don't deserve any of it. And all
the men are an absolute piece of shit that deserve
to be put down. I don't know. It's hard because
even in the ones where it's like downfall, where
they're, you know, it's dark romance. It's not
so bad. They still do some really fucking horrible
stuff. Like, they're human beings. Do you know
what I mean? Like, when you think about what
they're actually doing, yes, you know, you can
put a romance spin on it. Yeah. Yeah. So what
I'm hearing is you just write completely irredeemable
characters. Yeah, completely irredeemable. The
only ones that aren't irredeemable are Dominic
and Eden from Good Girl. I've not read that one
yet. It's on my list. It's completely different
to all the others because it's got a couple of
moments of not dark, not really. They're just
slightly triggering, not very nice scenes, but
they're not. But it's basically just like a stepdad,
stepdaughter, spicy, 70 % smut. absolute feel
fest but it's a really fun read and i think yeah
they're the only redeemable characters in all
of it but then even then they're cheating on
the mum so still not not great behavior there
so yeah i i am responsible for the outline i
put that in there because i was curious because
because i feel like like no one should be trying
to emulate any of the relationships in the brethren
lords obviously uh we sort of talked about the
like the consensual version of magnus earlier
but as they are on the page definitely not but
i found um deprivation surprisingly like quite
wholesome in some weird ways in places because
of the way that Antonio viewed Grace's body.
I mean, the way that Antonio treated Grace's
body, a different story. But the fact that she
was surrounded by so many people making horrible
comments about her weight, the way she saw herself,
I read it at least as being quite neutral. And
then he just absolutely physically worshipped
her, absolutely found every inch of her desirable.
And because he's a terrible person, that did
not translate into good behaviour. But as a mid
- person reading that like i don't see my body
type represented in books very often and i don't
see it represented that well ever um and it was
i was like i did not get into this to feel like
emotional and find it surprisingly beautiful
and yet here we are um the reason i wrote that
was because i felt so obviously liliana in the
first book is an older woman because you don't
see older women always 21 and i was like so i
wrote her to be a bit older and then obviously
um Bryn and Paetlyn are younger. So I was like,
oh, and both of them are your standard skinny
20s FMC. And they had, well, they didn't necessarily
have to be skinny, but they had to, do you know
what I mean, be that age to fit the narrative
of the plot and to make it work. And with Grace,
yes, she's young, but I felt I could do something
really different with her. So I did all my own
covers for the Brethren Lords. And I also wrote
another book called Vendetta, where the main
female character is curvy. And I, when I was
trying to find stock images of curvy women, it's
near impossible to find sexy images, like truly,
you know, you can be like, that woman is fucking
sexy. And I just found it really frustrating
because I was like, or what they call plus size.
I was looking at it going, that's not plus size.
That's my body. And I wouldn't say I'm plus size.
And it really pisses me off that there's no representation
because there are incredibly sexy plus size and
curvy women. They are fucking gorgeous. And so
I was like, well, I really want this book to
have this whole dynamic where she is curvy and
she's fucking gorgeous. And he's obsessed about
that because. Instead of all the men, they've
got complete power. They've got complete control.
They can do whatever they want and have whatever
woman they wanted. And I thought it would be
so fucking cliche if every single FMC is a skinny
blonde. Do you know what I mean? It's like, oh,
here we go again. The same fucking bullshit.
And I was like, actually, what we want is we
want these men to be real men into real women.
And a real woman isn't a skinny blonde. I mean,
obviously, there are skinny blonde women, but
real women's bodies are not a size zero supermodel.
And I was like, I'm sick of writing. that size
zero supermodel. And I kind of wanted to emulate
in Vendetta, he's like the male main character
is absolutely obsessed with the female main character's
body. And I wrote that book in a way that you
couldn't figure out how big she was. You knew
she's curvy, but I didn't want someone to be
like, oh yeah, she's a size 14 or she's a size
22 or whatever. I wanted it so that whoever was
reading that book could see their body type.
And I kind of almost wanted to repeat that again
in Deprivation and have it where you could see
your own body type. Because when I read books,
I always put myself in as the female main character.
But if the body isn't fitting, it doesn't work.
And I was like, actually, I want so many people
to be able to read this and see. Actually, as
I'm saying this, I'm like, do you really want
to see yourself in the Brethren Lords? Kind of
do, yeah. But at the same time, you want to see
your... It's the same thing about inclusivity,
isn't it? In terms of, you know, you read this
awful stuff and you think, well, I'm not alone.
It's the same thing with body types. If all you're
ever reading about is skinny women, then that's
incredibly isolating. And it's that body positive
thing of like, actually, we should have so much
more representation around curvy women. And they
don't always have to feel great about their body
either, because something I struggled with a
little bit of body positivity is either. or curvy
women books is either they fucking love their
curvy women they're so powerful and they're so
like yeah i'm or they have this whole insecurity
about it and it's like you can have both you
can like everyone at moments loves their body
and thinks fuck i look great and other moments
go oh my god i look awful i need to sort myself
out i'm a state and actually it's a real person
never looks at themselves all the time thinks
i look great or i look horrendous there's there's
a an in -between and i've gone down a huge tangent
no that's that's great because that's i so much
got that like you absolutely nailed it like because
grace for a start there is enough going on for
grace that i think her body is the least of her
worries um and it always did feel like she she
just wasn't focused on that she wasn't her internal
voice wasn't constantly going god i'm so hot
because i'm curvy or oh my god i'm disgusting
no one should look at me she was just getting
on with her life while while being the size that
she is and experiencing the range of people's
reactions to that and then having that contrasted
with the people saying the negative things and
contrasted with antonio thinking it was absolutely
perfect and and wanting more of it um yeah like
yeah it just it was one of those reading experiences
where i was like oh that just healed a little
bit of me um which is great because i definitely
have that that sort of conflict with myself with
my body at times and yeah you you nailed that
one That's really good to hear because I struggled
with the whole fat phobic comments and I really
struggled writing that because I was like, this
is fucking horrible. So it's really nice to hear
that from a reader's perspective, it did something
because it felt fucking horrible writing some
of those scenes. And I was like, I just, I'm
really worried. I was so nervous about it. I've
got two people to read it. One of them had been
in a relationship where, I think it's like a
feeder relationship, if that's the right word.
And she read it and she was like, you're fine,
you're fine. Because what I didn't want to do
is publish something and people are like, this
is the most offensive. Like, obviously it's offensive.
There's some awful shit in it. But I didn't want
that to be offensive in it. I mean, the fat phobia
is fucking horrible. And yeah, I had sensitivity
readers for it because I was like, I feel deeply
uncomfortable with some of these scenes. So hearing
that it helped is that that moment there, it
just made me feel better. Thank you. Good. Yeah,
I'd been going to ask about the sensitivity readers
because that was the first time that you'd you'd
use sensitivity readers, wasn't it? Yeah, I I'm
a little bit. So the process of writing a book,
you're meant to write a book, then you're meant
to give it to alpha readers, then they come back
with their comments, then you give it to beta
readers who then, like you make changes, then
they give it to beta readers. And then once you're
happy with it, you then go through all the editors
and all that stuff. I don't do alpha readers
or beta readers because I've had experience with
people reading my books in the past and going,
right, you need to change this and this and this
and you need to change this ending and basically
rewrite the entire story to how they want. And
I'm like, no, this is my story. They're always
very loud in my head in terms of where they start,
what happens and where they end up. So I feel
like I don't need someone to tell me from a beta
or an alpha perspective how the story works.
What I need is to know, does this make sense
coherently? are the characters full rounded if
that's the right term for a psychopath um characters
like do their motives make sense um and i've
generally stayed away from sensitivity readers
because i felt like a lot of the triggers i've
put into those books are triggers or scenes that
i've been through um so i i and i've had people
read it but oh it didn't really for me and i
was like but that's my trauma do you know what
i mean you know when you read something and you
identify with different bits and i I didn't have
sensitivity readers because I felt some of the
scenes were so fucking out that I couldn't find
a sensitivity reader that would really fit. And
then obviously book four, what's the word? Book
four, obviously you've got all the horrible fucking
fat phobic and shit going on. And I was like,
this book is just so... I struggled so much with
that book that I felt I was questioning myself.
And I was like, I need someone else here just
because I never want to put something out there
that offends my readers. Like, I know it's going
to offend people and I know that and I know I'm
going to get hate and I'm comfortable with that.
But what I don't want to do is have my core readership
read that and go, the fuck is this? They're who
are important to me. And then my final book has...
a person of color is the female main character
um and i'm i find this really weird saying but
i'm i'm a person of color even though i'm white
passing like complete i am completely fucking
white passing so i was like i am not comfortable
writing a person of color without having someone
read for it as well so i've had a sensitivity
reader on the final pick as well just to make
sure because I think it's incredibly easy to
write a person of colour wrong and write it in
a way that you think is representing and actually
is deeply offensive. And I would hate to be offensive
in the way that I've represented her. So I've
had a few sensitivity readers with that book
just to make sure that it, again, it is for my
audience and it fits. Yeah, I don't know how
I feel about sensitivity readers because I know
some people have them for every single book and
I can absolutely see the value in them. And for
me, I kind of, I trust my gut, which maybe is
a bit reckless because maybe one day I'll write
a book and people will be like, this is absolutely
horrendous. And I, do you know what I mean? I've
gone slack and I've let myself down and I hope
that never happens. But for me, I kind of trust
my gut on the books. And if I feel, if I feel
that in my gut, then I'm like, okay, I'm getting
a sensitivity reader. And if I feel like I'm
comfortable, then I don't. And I think that's
a very personal choice. And I think each author
probably makes that choice for themselves and
how they are with their writing process. Yeah.
And it seems like you're sort of... Your threshold
for it, apart from just that gut feeling, like
you said, is if you're stepping a little bit
further outside your own experience or outside
of things that you can get just from pure research,
things like, you know, people's experience of
their body and of the feeder type relationship
and of a person of colour who isn't white passing,
like they will have perspectives on it that maybe
you can't get just from reading stuff on the
internet. That is exactly it. I think anything
outside my scope. I feel like something that
you can make up, you know, something that you
can imagine, but actually when you're representing
someone else and their experiences, you have
to be very careful with that and do that in a
way that is legitimate and is a fair representation.
Yeah. So you have, I mean, I have written in
the outline that we're going to talk about decimation
now, but then I also noticed you have announced
another book as well. So just briefly, how much
do you write? I never stop writing. Basically,
my brain never shuts up. So I have what I call
a superpower. And some people will be like, oh,
here we go. I have ADHD. And basically, I have
something called hyperfocus, which I think a
lot of people with ADHD have, where I can literally
sit and it's the best superpower in the world.
I can sit here, my partner will go off to work
at six in the morning, and I will sit here and
I'll start writing. And I won't move, I won't
wee, I won't drink, I won't do anything until
he comes home at night at like six. And then
I'll hear the door go and I'll snap out of whatever
I've done and go, oh, fuck, I'm going to piss
myself. And now I have to run to the toilet.
And I would have written like 10 ,000 words in
one day because I'm just like, and my, I taught
myself to touch type years and years ago. So
I can literally just, like, maybe not all those
10 ,000 words will be great. Maybe half of them
will be absolutely pure shit. And I'll be like,
right, delete that, start again. But my best
that I've written was just over 25 ,000 words
in one day because I was just like. Oh, wow.
Crikey. And some of it was absolute shit. The
next day I was like, what the fuck is this? To
flip this entire paragraph. But it's really helpful
when you're like, right. And the problem I have
is my characters, like I said earlier in that,
I method write. The characters are in my head.
I dream about them. I run scenes over. So when
I'm gardening, I used to walk the dogs from my...
dog was alive and could walk um I used to walk
him for an hour and a half and I'd be thinking
scenes through the whole time and my phone has
got you know um the notes section on your phone
my phone just has like all the scenes that I'm
writing if I'm out and I'm like right this scene
has to be written right now because if I don't
write it down straight away I've lost it and
then if I try and rewrite it again it just doesn't
have that spark so my notes is just filled with
all these sections of like conversations and
ideas and stuff and then I'll like write email
it to myself so I just I just wish I could take
a break. I'd just love a break. A break would
be amazing. It'd just be so helpful. Yeah, so
this book's coming out in November. I'm about
10 ,000 words in already. Even though I said
June was going to be my admin month, I was like,
I need to fix my website because it's... not
quite working I need to do all this back admin
I had to sort loads of stuff out for my accountant
who was like if you don't sort this um I'm quitting
you and was like wow I'm at the point where my
accountant wants to fire me this is pretty cool
and I was like right okay June I'm gonna take
an admin month and get myself sorted and then
I started another book because that's what I
do yeah because I remember when we arranged this
recording session a month or two ago you said
oh yeah my June's completely clear and then you
announced a new book because if I'm remembering
right Decimation comes out 21st of August yeah
21st of August and then the monster you made
of me coming in November that's a quick turnaround
when you only just finished Decimation that's
incredible ridiculous I was like for fuck's sake
but In my head, I'm like, right, well, I've pretty
much done all the admin I need to do. It's the
20th of June. I can start writing this book now.
I've got most of June and July to get written.
Decimation's out in August. I could probably
get it finished in August, get it to editors
and all of that for September, have it lined
up. But this is what I always do. And the problem
is I... I'm one of those people that have the
best plan in the world and then basically just
go, ah, fuck it, I'll do what I want. And I'm
like, what's the word? I'm a chaos gremlin. And
I have this phrase that diamonds are made under
pressure. And I love a deadline. I absolutely
love that. You've got two weeks to get this done
or you're fucked. And then I'm like, all right,
here we go. And then I bring out my best work.
Because I was going to ask, as someone who...
has possibly a different relationship with deadlines.
Announcing a launch date for a book you're still
writing just makes me shiver. I do. But my problem
is, if I didn't announce the launch date, I wouldn't...
I'd never write the book. Because I need the
kick up the butt to get shit done. I don't know
how to explain it because I... Like, I never
stop writing, but at the same time, I've got
all these other books planned for next year.
So if I'm lucky, I'm going to try and release
six books next year, which is fucking nuts. But
I'll probably do it because I'm like, I know
it's fucking stupid, but at the same time, we'll
see how much I can break myself. But the problem
I had with Decimation was I finished Deprivation
in, what, February? And Decimation is due out
in August. And I was like, I've got all this
time in the world. This is amazing. So I wrote
loads, hated it, deleted it. Wrote loads again,
hated it, deleted it. I got to 50 ,000 words,
decided the entire thing was shit again, deleted
the entire thing. And I've never had this with
a book before. And I think my problem with that
book was I had such a long lead time. Yeah. It
just, it doesn't work for me. Like I need to
be short and snappy. And I felt with Decimation,
there were times when I really struggled to hear
the FMC's voice and I was trying to write it
and I couldn't figure out her backstory. I had
a great backstory for her and then decided it
was shit and deleted it, write an entirely different
backstory, realised it was shit. And then I finally
figured out what it was and was like, this makes
so much sense. Now it clicks into so much other
stuff and it's fine and it's great. But it felt,
because I had so much time to work with it, it
felt the book was fighting me. yeah whereas all
my other ones where it's like you've got you've
got a month you've got two months to get this
book written there's no time for that bullshit
it's like just get it done and it flowed so much
six books in a year sounds terrifying as a sort
of infrequent writer like i mainly blog and i've
done little bits of fiction and it'll be like
i'm inspired for three days and you're gonna
get two blog posts and i'll write a chapter of
a book and then in six months i might do it again
i For me, like if you told me a few years ago
I'd do six books, I'd be like, yeah, absolutely
nuts. But now I'm like, yeah, this is, I can
do this. Absolutely. Yeah. No problem. So lots
of upcoming projects, but we'll talk a little
bit about Decimation for now, but I will be very
excited to see what else is coming. Definitely.
So what can you tell us about what to expect
in Decimation? I know you won't want to give
us too many spoilers. I'm so nervous. I think
for me, The pressure really fell on for this
one because I'd done four books before and because
everyone's gone, oh, they get darker and darker.
I was like, oh, fuck. And I don't think, in my
opinion, and I've said this about everyone, but
I genuinely mean it with Decimation. I don't
think it's as dark. I think it's as dark as Deviant,
maybe Depravity. Like, I don't think it's as
dark as some of the others. And I think because
it's the end series, I just... It feels, I don't
know, I'm shitting myself about this book. I'm
so worried everyone's going to read about this.
This is shit. I hate it. I'm never reading one
of your books again. But I always have this,
this is the imposter syndrome that's like, oh
yeah, maybe everyone will realise that actually
they hate me and they hate my books and this
has all been a fluke. Was The Brethren Lords
always going to be five books? No, originally
it was going to be one book. This is again, this
is what I do. So like Downfall was only ever
meant to be one book. And then the story got
so big, I was like, oh shit, I've got to make
it into two books of Uprising. And then I realized
I had to do Reckoning to give Sophia a story
because she needed a story. And then in Sophia's
story, it kind of created the Brethren Lords
because it's all in the same universe. And then
Deviant was meant to be a one -off. That I then
realised I could tie into The Brethren Lords
and realise how I could actually... Yeah, this
is my problem in that I come up with an idea
and then as I'm writing the book, the idea gets
bigger and bigger. And then I was like, oh, well,
maybe I'll just do it as the three. So originally
it went from one book to three. So it was going
to be Magnus, Conrad and... Oh my God, I forgot
his name. All right, all right. It's all the
Ds again. All the fucking Ds. And I was like,
yeah, I'll stop it at Devon. And then I realized
Antonia had become such an interesting character
that I had to write a story about Antonia. And
I was like, well, I also really need to explain
about the Grandmaster. And by halfway through,
like book three, I was like, this is so fucking
big. I actually need these extra books. Otherwise
it will feel unfinished and it will feel like
a lazy finish. So yeah, and then from that, the
Black Orchid has kind of spun out of that. So
that's another series that's just kind of, yeah,
it's ridiculous. Is that going to be connected
to, is that in the same universe as well? Same
universe. So some of the characters are going
to cross over from Decimation into the Black
Orchid. They're very, one or two of them are
like minor characters, but it all kind of, so
the Black Orchid Club is the club that Grace
was taken to in Deprivation. Of course, yeah.
Yeah, it's because it's very lightly mentioned
that I don't know whether many people have made
that connection. But in the final book, it's
made more obvious. And then the spinoff series
is basically the Black Orchid Club as a sex club.
And then the premise is there's these five girls
that are auctioned off. So each book is about
a different girl and a different couple. It's
going to be a bit more BDSM led. um but it is
dark romance rather than pitch black romance
um i don't know if it's going to be fully BDSM
in terms of like the consent I've got to figure
out how I'm working that so it's trying to again
it's going back to that earlier thing of education
and finding the right balance and making sure
that it shows it's going to be an interesting
one to write because I've got to balance it and
make it interesting and have that drama and all
of it that I've got in the other stories while
also if I'm going to write BDSM community making
sure that that fits the right way and it's just
it's a lot of balls to juggle but it yeah hopefully
I can do it I'm definitely looking forward to
those they sound amazing have there been any
hints in the existing brethren lords books that
we might have missed that will give us clues
of what's coming in decimation anything that
i should be combing through them for there is
there's a really big hint that no one's really
like but it's it you you only see in hindsight
yeah so i can i can say it Do I want to say it?
There's a few little tales. Like I'm all about
like dropping little tales that later you read
back and go, fucking hell. So there's a few,
particularly in degradation, there's a few little
things that have just, because they talk about
right at the end, obviously, Innes and Constantine.
And there's a few little things, which it's just,
it's clever. I say that really arrogantly. Oh,
I'm so clever. Look at me writing all these clever
things. I hope it's clever. Most people are like,
this is not clever. This is so fucking obvious.
Yeah. But, oh, yeah. I'm going to have to go
Easter egg hunting. I'm totally going to go look
and see what I can find. I really do. And then
I've written a few things in decimation, which
I think people are like, fuck, I never, like
leading back into like, particularly Caitlin
and Devin, there's a few little things about.
of paten's story and paten's heritage that comes
into the final book as well and because i know
there was lots of questions about who her father
really is and stuff like that and it's there's
a few little like i've left all these little
what they were not loopholes um plot holes there
we go um and it's kind of making sure i close
all those plot holes correctly um Yeah, I'm kind
of hoping that once people finish the final book,
then they'll be like, whoa, okay, it's changed
how I look. And particularly like at the end
of the final book, you've got the two main characters
and they're looking back at some of the other
characters that are there, like Devon and Patlin
are there and Magnus and Liliana. But you've
got this main male character's perspective on
all of them. And what I like about it is it's
got... you know, like everyone romanticizes Paitlyn
and Devon's relationship. They're like, oh, isn't
it? But actually it is one of complete control.
Like she's blind, not to spoil it, but she's,
because of what's happened, massive plot spoiler
there, she's blind. So he has complete control
over her. And everyone's like, it's this romantic
relationship. I'm like, it is, but it is also
incredibly abusive. Like on a certain level,
it is incredibly toxic and abusive. And I kind
of really liked. That look back at everyone so
you can see, yeah, every single one of these
relationships is horrible and toxic and abusive
and fucked up. And not one of them, you know,
we romanticise in a tongue -in -cheek way, but
not one of them should be something anyone aspires
to have in real life because it's all horrible.
Yeah, I feel like Caitlin and Devin got the closest
to her happily ever after, but it's still, he's
done some stuff to her. Yeah, it's pretty fucked
up. A really random thought just popped in my
head when you were kind of talking about how
your series of books focus on a particular character
or a couple of characters in each book. The thought
that popped into my head was, yeah, it's like
a really fucked up version of Bridgerton, isn't
it? Oh my God, it is. I love that. I might steal
that. I think I possibly had that thought before.
It is like fucked up Bridgerton. Especially the
first three because you're following the three
brothers. It's literally just working through
the family. I should have given them more brothers.
There should have been five brothers. It would
have made more sense. You've mentioned, as we've
been talking, you kind of mentioned a couple
of authors that you're friends with or kind of
know through the work that you do. But if anyone's
new to dark romance, pitch black type things,
are there any recommendations that you would
give people to start with? Your books, obviously.
I think if you're new to dark romance, don't
start with my books, unless you know already
that you don't have many triggers. I think if
you're new, one that I love to say, and obviously
she's a huge author and she gets wrecked everywhere,
is Chantal Tessier. So she writes The Lords.
She's dark romance. They get progressively darker.
There's a whole lot of... I guess it is kink.
It's really hard to explain though because it's...
Those books are interesting because there's a
lot of sex going on and there's a lot of stuff
going on and power dynamics and stuff. But at
the same time, a lot of it is more coercive.
But they're great books, I think. I think they're
a great intro into dark romance and kind of understanding
because they start off not too dark and then
they get darker. But they're not... they're not
pitch black. I think you've got to be pretty
bold to go straight into pitch black unless you
know that you're comfortable with it, unless
you've read it. Someone else who I really love,
she's not very well known, but I love her writing.
I think she's amazing. It's Billie Jade Cormack.
She's another British author. And she writes
like, she writes like these really sassy, feisty
females, but not in that, you know, when people
write strong women and they're just, they just
feel a bit cliche because all they do is snap
back and they're just a bit bitchy and you're
like that's not a strong woman doesn't have to
always be bitchy like they don't have to she
she writes them in a really like they're all
her characters are flawed but they're flawed
in logical ways and she writes really interesting
characters and i just i really love her her books.
Yeah, she's not that well known. She's got audio
books as well. So yeah, I definitely recommend
her if you're into, because she doesn't write
big, chunky books either. So they're quite good
for shorter books if you're like, right, I want
a book that's not going to last months for me
to get through it. Yeah, that's great. And are
there any, this is a bit like kind of asking
you to judge your kids or your pets, I suppose,
but what's, which of your own books are you kind
of most proud of? So this is, For me, the book
that I'm so proud of, and it's really ironic
because it doesn't sell very well at all, is
Deliria. So Deliria is such a fucking problem
book because, one, I got the words confused.
So I got hysteria and delirium mixed up and came
up with the word deliria, which is where the
term comes from. I was like, this works, that's
fine. But it's such an impossible book to market
because... You start reading it thinking one
thing is happening and then a couple of chapters
in you realise it's something else and then you
realise it's something... And I can't really
say any of the tropes without giving away the
entire plot and there's so many shock points
where you're like, fuck off, fuck. But I love
it because it's such a psychological head fuck
that it doesn't sell very well because I can't
do the... It's got, you know, Captain Prey or
it's got... this or this or this. I can't put
tropes to it without ruining the plot and ruining
the reader experience. But I love the book. It's
got two versions. It's got the soft version,
which is the original version I wrote. And then
I went on holiday and realised on holiday that
I should have given it a completely different
ending and messaged my editor and she was like,
bitch, don't you dare. And I was like, I'll fucking
do it. So then I wrote the hard version, which
basically had like a few more extended scenes
and then a completely different ending. And I
argue, me being the fucked up person I am, that
the ending on the hard version is the more romantic
version. But the ending on the soft version is
the traditional happy ever after. I've read the
hard version. Is it worth reading for the other
ending, do you think? Should I read the soft
version as well? Or do you think the hard one's
the best by far? I think the hard one's the best
because, do you remember on Fred's, was it Fred's
old book talk a few months ago, everyone was
like, romance has to have a happy ever after,
otherwise it's not a romance. And I got into
a massive argument with people going, that's
fucking bullshit, rah. And I can see why people
say it, and I don't want to be controversial,
but I think there is something incredibly romantic
about not having a happy ever after when it's
written the right way. And I know people are
like, oh, but that makes it romantic tragedy.
And I'm like, but then, you know, romantic tragedy
is still, in my opinion, a romance. Like everyone's
like, Romeo and Juliet is one of the greatest
romances ever written. It's a tragedy, but it
is still highly romantic. Like actually, it's
the Roman ending, isn't it? Of actually, we all
sacrifice ourselves in the way that Gladiator,
if it had been any other ending in Gladiator,
you'd have been like, that is absolute bullshit.
And I think... sometimes with a love story a
real love story it doesn't always end in sunshine
and roses and actually not to ruin the plot for
delirium but I think sometimes a realistic ending
for me can be more romantic than that and they
all lived happily ever after because that feels
a bit yeah yeah I found the hard version really
romantic and I think I don't like if something
is pitched as a romance and ends in a breakup
that That kills it for me. But other devastation,
other forms of tragedy. Absolutely. Yeah. Interesting.
Yeah, absolutely. You can't end it with them
not being together. Like, that's bullshit. Yeah,
yeah. I'll read people, like, getting tortured
quite comfortably, but a breakup? Oh, no. Yeah,
go fuck yourself. We're not having that. As long
as they're together at the end. Yeah. However
terrible it is, as long as they're together.
Bet. So I think that is everything that we wanted
to ask you. You have been absolutely incredible
and given us so much. So thank you. If people
want to find your books, if we haven't managed
to scare them off with all of the many warnings,
where should they find you? So most of my books
are on Amazon. They're on Kindle Unlimited. If
you have Kindle Unlimited, I highly recommend
you... uh start on there because what i love
about kindle unlimited is obviously you can start
reading a book and if you don't like it you can
dnf And you've not invested however much it is
in an actual book. I'm also on Etsy. So if you
like your shelf trophies, I have all my signed
books on Etsy. And then I am currently updating
my website because I'm going to start doing distribution
where I can actually ship signed books better
than with Etsy. And then I've got some really
cool book merch coming and stuff like that. So
that's a bit of a watch this space. But I would
say I'm most... active on TikTok. So yeah, if
you're on TikTok, feel free to follow me. That's
where I post all my crazy videos. And then if
I decide, like when I posted that video on the
monster that you made of me, I put it up and
then my PA was like, what the fuck is this? She's
like, what the fuck is this book? And I was like,
oh yeah, happy birthday. Surprise. So yeah, I
quite often post on there and then even my editor
or my PA is like, oh, for fuck's sake, because
I just announced something that they didn't have
a clue about. But yeah, I like to keep everyone
on their toes. Amazing. I could just imagine
them having a meeting, kind of watching your
videos going, the fuck did she just say? Literally.
That's literally how our meetings go. And then
Breen, my PA, will sit there and go through stuff.
She's like, you don't have time for this. And
she's like, this is your schedule. And I'll be
like, no, no, I can make it work. She's like,
I am in charge here, not you. Okay, I'm sorry.
Please don't yell at me. I will make sure in
the description for the episode, I will include
links to your website and your TikTok. And I'll
put your Etsy store as well. Amazing. Yes. Yeah.
Brilliant. So, yeah, thank you so much. Yeah,
thanks so much for your time. Thank you so much.
I was going to say, thank you so much for having
me. It's been amazing. Brilliant. Awesome. Excellent
stuff. Bye. See you next time.