WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.840 Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, an award 00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:03.940 -winning podcast where we talk kink, raw and 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:06.639 unfiltered. I'm Carizel, an award -winning lifestyle 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:09.339 submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who likes their 00:00:09.339 --> 00:00:11.960 kink heavy, intense, award -winning and scary. 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:14.980 And I'm S, Carizel's award -winning dominant 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:17.079 who knows how to deliver all of the above in 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:19.539 an award -winning way. And today we're going 00:00:19.539 --> 00:00:21.079 to be talking about an award -winning movie. 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:22.859 We're going to be talking about The Piano Teacher. 00:00:23.100 --> 00:00:49.500 You stole my joke. So the obnoxious introduction 00:00:49.500 --> 00:00:52.619 is not a permanent feature. No. Oh, is it not? 00:00:52.899 --> 00:00:55.140 No, because I think that would really get annoying 00:00:55.140 --> 00:01:01.280 really fast. I don't care. I won an award. That's 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:05.519 so fair. But we wanted to chat just briefly about 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.120 the award that we won, because this is the first 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.379 episode we've recorded since it happened. We 00:01:09.379 --> 00:01:12.980 won... Best Media at the 2026 Alternative Awards. 00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:16.200 Yes, we did. And it was so much fun. Yes, that 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.459 was an amazing night. That was, for me, a surprise. 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:23.840 Yeah. I think you had got it in your head that 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:26.180 we were going to win. Up until the day, I really 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:30.040 did. I was confident. I felt like we have a really 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.079 engaged... sort of base of listeners i think 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:36.879 we get a lot of like comments and people sending 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:38.640 us messages and things like that which is always 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:40.519 a good sign for any kind of publicly voted award 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.560 and i thought we had a really good chance and 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:44.239 then on the day the imposter syndrome got in 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:45.620 my head and i was like no we've been running 00:01:45.620 --> 00:01:47.340 this less than a year that would be silly it's 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:50.180 not gonna happen i didn't like it's not like 00:01:50.180 --> 00:01:51.879 my confidence was knocked but i just went in 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:54.019 with more realistic expectations i think of yeah 00:01:54.019 --> 00:01:55.579 it's probably not gonna happen we're just gonna 00:01:55.579 --> 00:01:58.260 have a good night anyway yeah yeah and i don't 00:01:58.260 --> 00:02:01.599 know about you but when i got to the venue for 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.019 it and we kind of found our table that it kind 00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:06.200 of like hit me a little bit it was like no we're 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:09.680 we're surrounded by like proper proper people 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:13.199 yeah who do this who do this for a job yeah you 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.400 know we're just two sex nerds with a microphone 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:21.430 yeah um that's probably not gonna be what happens 00:02:21.430 --> 00:02:23.750 but then it did and it did yeah and i didn't 00:02:23.750 --> 00:02:25.969 write a speech partly because they'd said it's 00:02:25.969 --> 00:02:27.250 up to you whether you say anything or not and 00:02:27.250 --> 00:02:28.789 until we got there i didn't know how many people 00:02:28.789 --> 00:02:30.330 would be and i didn't want to be the obnoxious 00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:32.469 one getting up there with loads to say but also 00:02:32.469 --> 00:02:35.069 it felt like it would jinx it yeah so i didn't 00:02:35.069 --> 00:02:37.330 and then as we started getting closer to it i 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:39.009 started thinking a little bit about what i might 00:02:39.009 --> 00:02:40.590 want to say because we'd agreed i would go up 00:02:40.590 --> 00:02:42.050 on stage and you wouldn't because you didn't 00:02:42.050 --> 00:02:43.530 want to be photographed and also you didn't want 00:02:43.530 --> 00:02:46.110 to stand up in front of that many people um and 00:02:46.110 --> 00:02:47.610 i asked you if there was anything you wanted 00:02:47.610 --> 00:02:51.050 to say and you gave me that line um we're just 00:02:51.050 --> 00:02:52.669 two sex nerds with microphones. So I was like, 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:54.650 cool, I'll open with that and then I'll say some 00:02:54.650 --> 00:02:58.569 stuff. And I did. Yeah. And it was amazing. And 00:02:58.569 --> 00:03:01.789 everybody seemed very nice about it. Yeah. The 00:03:01.789 --> 00:03:03.650 people on our table were lovely. Yeah. Really 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:06.069 award winning table. Yeah. There were four awards 00:03:06.069 --> 00:03:08.449 or something. There were four awards, including 00:03:08.449 --> 00:03:12.250 us on our table. Yes. Yeah. Best Newcomer, the 00:03:12.250 --> 00:03:16.310 Icon Award and I think Best Content Creator. 00:03:16.830 --> 00:03:18.770 Icon and Best Content Creator were the same person. 00:03:18.810 --> 00:03:22.750 Big Rob and Evil Mendez got Best Newcomer. Yeah. 00:03:22.810 --> 00:03:24.370 So, yeah, it felt like a lucky table because 00:03:24.370 --> 00:03:26.229 all of those awards were announced before ours 00:03:26.229 --> 00:03:28.210 and it was coming around towards us. It was like, 00:03:28.270 --> 00:03:31.430 oh, so maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. We were really. 00:03:31.900 --> 00:03:34.099 late in the awards weren't we we were like practically 00:03:34.099 --> 00:03:36.180 the last one yeah it was like within the last 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:38.800 three awards announced or something yeah oh we 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.460 had a great time yeah very very happy the award 00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:43.800 is still sitting on our coffee table we need 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:45.520 to find a proper home for a proper home for it 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.300 yeah and obviously thank you to everybody who 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:50.719 voted yes thank you so much really appreciate 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:52.280 it very much appreciate and we will probably 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.400 have to come to you asking begging for votes 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:56.520 again before too long because there are more 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:59.219 awards coming up yes and if they do what they 00:03:59.219 --> 00:04:01.039 did this year we'll be nominated in another award 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.210 next year Yes. Alternative awards, they don't 00:04:04.210 --> 00:04:05.750 allow you to enter the same category two years 00:04:05.750 --> 00:04:07.349 in a row to give other people a chance, which 00:04:07.349 --> 00:04:09.530 I think is really cool. But to make up for that, 00:04:09.590 --> 00:04:11.810 they put everyone who won an award this year 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:14.750 into a best of category next year. So we saw 00:04:14.750 --> 00:04:16.889 the best of 2025 get announced and then next 00:04:16.889 --> 00:04:19.490 year we'll be nominated for best of 2026. It's 00:04:19.490 --> 00:04:21.889 going to be a tough category that. I don't have 00:04:21.889 --> 00:04:26.069 high hopes there. But if anyone wants to vote 00:04:26.069 --> 00:04:27.930 for us in that, that will also be very much appreciated. 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:32.730 Hurrah. I guess we should talk about a film. 00:04:33.129 --> 00:04:36.970 Yes. Movie night. Yes, we decided to have another 00:04:36.970 --> 00:04:38.910 kinky movie night. It's been a little while since 00:04:38.910 --> 00:04:42.209 we did one. Yeah. Last one was Crash. Crash, 00:04:42.209 --> 00:04:44.949 yes. I think. I had some thoughts about that. 00:04:45.250 --> 00:04:48.509 Yeah. And I, as we are about to come on to as 00:04:48.509 --> 00:04:50.069 we discuss what we thought about this movie, 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:52.490 I had the moment of realisation as we were watching 00:04:52.490 --> 00:04:54.509 this week's movie, which was The Piano Teacher. 00:04:55.290 --> 00:04:57.850 I was sitting there. And it was the second watch 00:04:57.850 --> 00:04:59.689 of it for me. I'd seen it a few years ago by 00:04:59.689 --> 00:05:02.170 myself. But I was watching it with you. And so 00:05:02.170 --> 00:05:03.889 watching it through your eyes the way that you 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:05.470 do when you introduce a movie to someone. And 00:05:05.470 --> 00:05:07.610 I was like, if they didn't like Crash, I don't 00:05:07.610 --> 00:05:10.730 think they're going to like this. Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:11.750 --> 00:05:15.350 Yeah. So tell me, what did you think of it, Mix? 00:05:15.589 --> 00:05:20.269 I think a little bit like Crash. It has. I wouldn't 00:05:20.269 --> 00:05:22.370 say it's grown on me since we watched it. And 00:05:22.370 --> 00:05:25.110 the more I thought about it. But I can see what 00:05:25.110 --> 00:05:28.050 they were saying and I can see the intention 00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:30.329 behind it. And there's a bunch of interesting 00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:33.310 stuff going on in that movie. Kind of the themes 00:05:33.310 --> 00:05:36.870 of it and the questions that it raises are all 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:39.430 really interesting and really good to think about. 00:05:40.649 --> 00:05:44.170 But it was dull. And I think that's not even 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:47.730 about the actors in it or the plot. I just think 00:05:47.730 --> 00:05:50.490 it's a little bit arty and a little bit pretentious. 00:05:51.180 --> 00:05:53.779 And that immediately turns me off. Yeah, it's 00:05:53.779 --> 00:05:56.920 a very sort of sparse movie, the way it's directed, 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.800 the way that it's filmed. It's very sort of cold 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.079 and quite clinical at times. Yeah. And I feel 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.879 like that adds to it for me. But I can also immediately 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:06.180 see how that would switch someone off. Yeah. 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:08.480 And it's very slow paced, particularly the first 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.220 sort of half to two thirds of the movie. Yeah. 00:06:11.259 --> 00:06:13.240 Really kind of creeps along, which again, really 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.600 works for me. But I can see why it wouldn't be 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.500 for you. It's not a bad movie. It's not a bad 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:22.079 story. there's some good acting in it but i think 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.819 if you're going to be arty and a bit pretentious 00:06:24.819 --> 00:06:27.699 you have to do it really well and see i fully 00:06:27.699 --> 00:06:29.319 agree with that it's just where we differ is 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:31.079 i think the piano teacher did it exceptionally 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:33.579 well yeah i don't have a lot of patience with 00:06:33.579 --> 00:06:35.339 a movie that feels like it's trying to be cleverer 00:06:35.339 --> 00:06:37.220 than it is but i think the piano teacher is exactly 00:06:37.220 --> 00:06:39.160 as clever as it thinks it is which is why i love 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:41.360 it yeah um and i really like what i've seen of 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.319 the director michael haneke i've only seen two 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.959 of his movies And I would like to see more, but 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:47.819 I feel like they're a kind of once a decade event 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:50.680 for me because I saw Funny Games when I was 19 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:52.939 and I had seen it precisely once. And I would 00:06:52.939 --> 00:06:55.680 say it is possibly the movie that has had the 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:58.240 biggest impact on me. Like it's one that has 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.680 just stayed with me for getting on for 20 years 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.699 now. Where if you show me a single still frame 00:07:04.699 --> 00:07:06.660 from that movie, I will instantly recognize it 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:09.339 and remember how I felt seeing it. It's got so 00:07:09.339 --> 00:07:12.379 much to say about sort of voyeuristic sadism 00:07:12.379 --> 00:07:14.980 and how we all have that. like dark urgeness 00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:18.660 it just i i we're not going to turn this into 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:21.300 an episode about funny games but i very easily 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:23.079 could i have so many thoughts about that movie 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:24.459 even though it's been a long time since i saw 00:07:24.459 --> 00:07:27.579 it but it's not one i have any desire to re -watch 00:07:27.579 --> 00:07:30.459 because it was a brutal experience and the piano 00:07:30.459 --> 00:07:32.300 teacher is one that i've now seen twice and would 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:35.660 watch again but it's so uncomfortable and so 00:07:35.660 --> 00:07:38.759 immersive and really invites you into i think 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.019 both of the the characters headspace is so much 00:07:41.019 --> 00:07:44.730 i think It's a movie that you're not necessarily 00:07:44.730 --> 00:07:47.949 meant to entirely enjoy. Yeah. And I enjoyed 00:07:47.949 --> 00:07:50.930 not enjoying it, but I'm the masochist in this 00:07:50.930 --> 00:07:53.829 relationship. That's fair. But Funny Games is 00:07:53.829 --> 00:07:55.810 a good comparison. Same director, obviously. 00:07:55.949 --> 00:07:58.610 But for me, both of those films suffer from a 00:07:58.610 --> 00:08:01.310 similar problem. From my perspective, I don't 00:08:01.310 --> 00:08:03.629 think The Piano Teacher is clever enough to be 00:08:03.629 --> 00:08:06.329 as arty and pretentious as it is. Yeah. And I 00:08:06.329 --> 00:08:09.329 don't think Funny Games is clever enough to be 00:08:09.329 --> 00:08:12.730 as voyeuristically violent as it is. Because 00:08:12.730 --> 00:08:16.470 I think I've only seen Funny Games once, and 00:08:16.470 --> 00:08:21.910 I put it in the same kind of broad category as 00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:24.910 films like the Saw franchise and the Hills Have 00:08:24.910 --> 00:08:28.110 Eyes franchise, which is just gratuitous torture 00:08:28.110 --> 00:08:30.730 porn. And I know that Funny Games has a message 00:08:30.730 --> 00:08:32.669 to it, but I don't think the message is powerful 00:08:32.669 --> 00:08:34.409 enough, and I don't think it does it cleverly 00:08:34.409 --> 00:08:37.929 enough for it not to just feel a little bit unnecessarily 00:08:37.929 --> 00:08:40.590 gratuitous in the way that Saw and Hills Have 00:08:40.590 --> 00:08:43.889 Eyes and films like that. do yeah i can definitely 00:08:43.889 --> 00:08:46.350 see that funny games wouldn't hit its mark for 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:49.350 everybody yeah but i think it uses violence in 00:08:49.350 --> 00:08:52.789 a way that for the people that it does land with 00:08:52.789 --> 00:08:54.389 who maybe see it at the right time or in the 00:08:54.389 --> 00:08:58.470 right headspace it really makes you question 00:08:58.470 --> 00:08:59.970 everything you thought you knew about yourself 00:08:59.970 --> 00:09:01.909 and your relationship with violence it is something 00:09:01.909 --> 00:09:05.220 that is completely shaped the way that I sort 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:07.059 of self -critique how I'm engaging with violent 00:09:07.059 --> 00:09:10.019 media, violent fantasy, everything. And I say 00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:11.559 this as someone who very happily does engage 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:13.480 with violent media and violent fantasy. You know, 00:09:13.539 --> 00:09:15.220 it's not like Funny Games has made me go, oh, 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:16.879 I should never, I should never do such a thing. 00:09:17.100 --> 00:09:19.679 But it makes me think about it and be more self 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:21.919 -aware every single time that I engage with those 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:25.940 kind of things to question, am I doing that in 00:09:25.940 --> 00:09:28.600 a way that is harmful to me or others? Am I, 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.389 am I actually... benefiting from other people's 00:09:32.389 --> 00:09:34.210 misery and how can i make sure i don't do that 00:09:34.210 --> 00:09:37.149 and it was such a huge shift for me as a teenager 00:09:37.149 --> 00:09:39.909 as someone who just demolished all of the horror 00:09:39.909 --> 00:09:42.230 all of the things like sore and hostile and things 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:44.809 like that completely uncritically it hasn't stopped 00:09:44.809 --> 00:09:46.289 me enjoying those kind of things though it did 00:09:46.289 --> 00:09:48.330 for a little while but it changed how i engage 00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:52.210 with them and change how i view them um So I 00:09:52.210 --> 00:09:54.470 can completely recognise it's not going to have 00:09:54.470 --> 00:09:56.570 that effect on everybody. I don't think it even... 00:09:56.570 --> 00:09:58.070 The person I was dating at the time, who was 00:09:58.070 --> 00:10:00.490 a huge, huge movie nerd, absolutely loved any 00:10:00.490 --> 00:10:04.389 kind of arty, sort of slightly ambiguous movie, 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:06.889 loved that kind of stuff. I think it hit me harder 00:10:06.889 --> 00:10:09.669 than him, even though he was really locked in 00:10:09.669 --> 00:10:12.190 on the themes. Because he was quite frustrated 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:13.669 with me afterwards that I didn't want to watch 00:10:13.669 --> 00:10:15.309 loads of gory horror movies for a little bit. 00:10:16.070 --> 00:10:19.309 But I don't think it would be fair to say it 00:10:19.309 --> 00:10:22.389 doesn't... nail it i think it just can't ever 00:10:22.389 --> 00:10:24.129 get that to quite land for everybody because 00:10:24.129 --> 00:10:26.090 because you have to be in the right place to 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:27.730 be receptive to it i think maybe seeing that 00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:30.090 as you are a new adult is maybe the perfect time 00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:31.789 to see it like when you are sort of figuring 00:10:31.789 --> 00:10:33.269 out who you are and who you want to be and what 00:10:33.269 --> 00:10:35.990 values you're carrying into adulthood like that's 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:37.590 probably the time where funny games is going 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:39.610 to be the best best thing you've ever seen in 00:10:39.610 --> 00:10:41.289 your life and maybe seeing it older or younger 00:10:41.289 --> 00:10:42.710 than that wouldn't hit the same i don't know 00:10:42.710 --> 00:10:46.409 yeah Yeah, that's fair. I will die on the hill 00:10:46.409 --> 00:10:48.149 of defending Funny Games. I will allow you a 00:10:48.149 --> 00:10:50.309 lot more hate of the piano teacher, but Funny 00:10:50.309 --> 00:10:56.250 Games is my child. that's fair we should probably 00:10:56.250 --> 00:10:58.309 talk about the piano teacher we should yes um 00:10:58.309 --> 00:11:00.610 but also if you are up for having potentially 00:11:00.610 --> 00:11:03.009 your entire value system upended and the worst 00:11:03.009 --> 00:11:04.570 parts of yourself held up to you like a mirror 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:06.750 also check out funny games but yes let's talk 00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:09.330 about the piano teacher um i if it wasn't obvious 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.529 from now absolutely love it it's another one 00:11:11.529 --> 00:11:12.929 of those movies that i feel like will stay with 00:11:12.929 --> 00:11:15.429 me forever even if i never watch it again um 00:11:15.429 --> 00:11:17.879 so we're going to talk about are the things that 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:19.279 we got from it, the things that it made us think 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:21.620 about. And first, I thought we'd better start 00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:23.500 off with hearing a little bit about what happens 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:25.179 in it for anyone who's not familiar or wants 00:11:25.179 --> 00:11:27.620 a refresher. Do you want to tell us the story, 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:31.159 Mix? Yes, I will do my best, courtesy of Wikipedia, 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.019 as a way of reminding me what the plot of the 00:11:35.019 --> 00:11:37.379 movie was. Yeah, we've taken a few days to record 00:11:37.379 --> 00:11:39.000 this time, where we usually try to record straight 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:42.139 after watching. So Mix is also needing the refresher. 00:11:42.580 --> 00:11:46.600 Yes. So The Piano Teacher is about a woman called... 00:11:46.730 --> 00:11:49.409 Erica, who is, funnily enough, a piano teacher, 00:11:49.509 --> 00:11:55.909 played by Isabel Huppert. She's a bigwig in some 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:59.429 fancy Vienna conservatory. And in her day -to 00:11:59.429 --> 00:12:02.370 -day life, very focused on her music, very kind 00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:05.269 of aloof and a little bit cold in her day -to 00:12:05.269 --> 00:12:07.629 -day life. But under the surface, she's dealing 00:12:07.629 --> 00:12:10.230 with a lot of sexual repression. Yeah. She clearly 00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:13.190 has fantasies about other quite sadomasochistic 00:12:13.190 --> 00:12:17.509 nature. which involves some self -harm at some 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:19.830 point. So she's living this kind of almost like 00:12:19.830 --> 00:12:21.909 double life where she's hiding this really important 00:12:21.909 --> 00:12:24.590 part of herself. In the course of her work, she 00:12:24.590 --> 00:12:27.649 meets a guy called Walter, who is a engineer 00:12:27.649 --> 00:12:32.990 -cum -master pianist. She is quite taken by him, 00:12:33.029 --> 00:12:35.950 it's fair to say. She likes Walter, but then 00:12:35.950 --> 00:12:39.250 repeatedly seems to reject him both professionally 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:42.110 as a piano player. And sexually, there's quite 00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:44.850 a lot of her almost kind of giving him the come 00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:46.970 on, for want of a better phrase, and then stopping 00:12:46.970 --> 00:12:49.470 it dead and setting the rules and being quite 00:12:49.470 --> 00:12:53.009 controlling and almost manipulative in the way 00:12:53.009 --> 00:12:55.250 that she deals with him. But she shares with 00:12:55.250 --> 00:12:59.169 him all of her darkest fantasies and what she 00:12:59.169 --> 00:13:01.850 wants to happen. And they develop this kind of 00:13:01.850 --> 00:13:07.009 fucked up sadomasochistic relationship. All of 00:13:07.009 --> 00:13:09.350 this is going on while... Erica lives with her 00:13:09.350 --> 00:13:11.629 abusive mum, which is an interesting thing for 00:13:11.629 --> 00:13:15.169 us to talk about. Yes, there's a lot to say about 00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:17.570 that. She's living with her abusive mum. And 00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:20.070 this relationship between Erica and Walter is 00:13:20.070 --> 00:13:23.549 quite dysfunctional. He's not the best person 00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:26.509 in the world. She is, on the one hand, very, 00:13:26.570 --> 00:13:29.669 very repressed and almost ashamed of what she 00:13:29.669 --> 00:13:31.889 wants, whilst also trying to encourage Walter 00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:35.059 to be the worst kind of sadist. In the world. 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:38.840 And that all leads to a climax where Walter comes 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.200 to her house and either gives her what she wants 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.379 or sexually assaults her. And we're not quite 00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:47.759 sure which it is. Yep. Which is one of the big 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.740 messages of the movie. Very ambiguous ending, 00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:53.100 yeah. And then the film ends and you are left 00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:56.860 without answers. Which is not a bad thing. I 00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:58.840 almost sounded critical when I said that. That's 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:00.259 not necessary. That's not the thing I dislike 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:03.340 about the movie. um i like the fact that it's 00:14:03.340 --> 00:14:06.820 really ambiguous yeah very very unclear and i 00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:09.120 think particularly ambiguous for us because of 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.200 who we are as people i think 99 of people watching 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:13.840 that at least on a first watch would definitely 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.039 unambiguously see that as a rape scene um and 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:20.600 i think that certainly by the time that happens 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.779 she is not in control of the situation and has 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:29.019 has found a side of walter that she is not able 00:14:29.019 --> 00:14:32.480 to rein in even if she wants to yeah but the 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.279 ambiguity for me is in whether what happened 00:14:36.279 --> 00:14:38.840 there was that she found that things had gone 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.799 too far and she could lost control and had been 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.759 raped or whether even after getting everything 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:45.580 that she specifically asked for it's still not 00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:47.799 enough yeah because she's devastated afterwards 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.320 but what exactly is happening internally in her 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.299 as a mystery as it is throughout the movie she 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:54.899 is We are very much invited to get under her 00:14:54.899 --> 00:14:56.679 skin with her and feel a lot of things we're 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.759 feeling, but we very rarely get any insight into 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:00.740 the things she's thinking. And I really like 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:03.960 that, that sort of tension as the audience experience. 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:06.820 And I think possibly that's one of the things 00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:08.820 that kind of frustrated me a little bit about 00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:10.659 it is that we didn't really know what she was 00:15:10.659 --> 00:15:13.440 thinking. Like the ambiguity of the final scene 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.360 is fine. It's a good way to end the movie and 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.580 kind of not understanding how she's feeling at 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:21.620 that moment kind of makes sense. But the whole 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:24.399 movie just feels really quite cold and quite 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.000 clinical. And you don't really understand anyone. 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:30.980 Yeah. You're guessing at what's going on a lot 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:33.899 of the time. That's fair. Yeah, definitely. And 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:36.600 I think having seen it a second time, I felt 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:38.179 like I knew the characters a little better a 00:15:38.179 --> 00:15:40.720 second time. But there is an element of these 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.179 are people who are quite closed books, quite 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:46.340 closed off from each other. Not just Walter and 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:48.919 Erica. All of the characters that we really see. 00:15:50.379 --> 00:15:53.659 are working their own agendas and we're not necessarily 00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:56.059 because we see them from every character's point 00:15:56.059 --> 00:15:58.039 of view we're not necessarily seeing them as 00:15:58.039 --> 00:15:59.919 who they are we're seeing them as who they are 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.059 presenting to the world i would say that's true 00:16:02.059 --> 00:16:04.799 of the mother i would say it as um the student 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:06.580 who i've called in my notes perpetually crying 00:16:06.580 --> 00:16:10.980 girl um like her mother just everyone that we 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:15.580 meet is in their own bubble detached from everyone 00:16:15.580 --> 00:16:18.039 else with their own shit going on and i think 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:19.519 the audience being detached from them as well 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.700 that works for me yeah i do think one of the 00:16:22.700 --> 00:16:25.419 curious things about this movie is that it's 00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:30.179 not an explicitly kink focused movie weirdly 00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:33.519 it is about sadism and masochism but it's not 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.019 about a kinky lifestyle or kink as a concept 00:16:37.019 --> 00:16:41.490 very much focused on sadism and masochism Almost 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:44.309 as mental states or mental disorders. Yeah, and 00:16:44.309 --> 00:16:47.129 it's definitely taking those to their extreme 00:16:47.129 --> 00:16:51.129 points through a lot of it. I was thinking, it's 00:16:51.129 --> 00:16:53.529 interesting, I wouldn't say there is a single... 00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:57.070 consensual sex act shown in that movie apart 00:16:57.070 --> 00:17:00.070 from when erica is completely alone the things 00:17:00.070 --> 00:17:02.730 that she does completely on her own um anything 00:17:02.730 --> 00:17:04.890 where there's a sexual interaction between two 00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:08.170 people it's not consensual um there's a scene 00:17:08.170 --> 00:17:11.089 early on in the movie where she sneaks into a 00:17:11.089 --> 00:17:14.769 drive -in and is watching people have sex in 00:17:14.769 --> 00:17:17.349 a car um without their knowledge and then they 00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:18.869 find they find her watching and they are not 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:21.210 happy about it one of them chases her off um 00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:24.460 there is all of the interactions between her 00:17:24.460 --> 00:17:26.039 and walter where there's a real push and pull 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.539 of power but it's never negotiated and it's never 00:17:29.539 --> 00:17:32.339 both people equally happy with what's going on 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:35.240 at any given time and that i think is what separates 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.519 it from being a movie about kink where a movie 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.259 could be about a bdsm relationship and show sort 00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:43.279 of poor negotiation or like not ideal consent 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.319 but if a movie is about bdsm is it is at least 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.089 going to attempt to show some form of consent 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:51.589 or enthusiasm from everyone involved and this 00:17:51.589 --> 00:17:53.809 really doesn't because it's not about that although 00:17:53.809 --> 00:17:56.190 the relationship that she tries to initiate with 00:17:56.190 --> 00:17:58.970 walter is a consensual kinky relationship that 00:17:58.970 --> 00:18:01.250 doesn't work that doesn't ever happen because 00:18:01.250 --> 00:18:03.349 his initial reaction is disgust and then when 00:18:03.349 --> 00:18:05.650 he does engage with it it's in a way of sort 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:07.430 of losing control of some of the worst parts 00:18:07.430 --> 00:18:10.390 of himself it's never Something where either 00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:12.309 or both of them really have full control over 00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:15.150 what's happening. And I find that really interesting 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:18.289 because the way that I like to experience sadism 00:18:18.289 --> 00:18:20.950 and masochism is through consensual kink. I like 00:18:20.950 --> 00:18:23.589 it to be negotiated and risk managed and all 00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:26.509 of that good stuff. But the way that I fantasize 00:18:26.509 --> 00:18:29.470 about kink and the way that I feel my masochism 00:18:29.470 --> 00:18:32.269 when I'm alone and when I'm just processing my 00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:34.609 thoughts. consent doesn't need to be a part of 00:18:34.609 --> 00:18:36.049 that because there's no one involved other than 00:18:36.049 --> 00:18:38.690 me yeah so it is about those really extreme and 00:18:38.690 --> 00:18:41.789 intense feelings it is about chasing what are 00:18:41.789 --> 00:18:43.450 the worst things i could experience and what 00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:46.130 might that feel like that sort of curiosity and 00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:48.910 exploring that through fiction i think is a really 00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:50.690 interesting way of learning more about that kind 00:18:50.690 --> 00:18:53.589 of headspace and having more acceptance of that 00:18:53.589 --> 00:18:55.930 kind of headspace because much as no responsible 00:18:55.930 --> 00:18:58.369 ethical sadist or masochist should be doing any 00:18:58.369 --> 00:19:01.789 other stuff from that movie we may feel sometimes 00:19:01.789 --> 00:19:03.730 like some of the characters in that movie we 00:19:03.730 --> 00:19:05.849 may in our like darkest most innermost thoughts 00:19:05.849 --> 00:19:08.710 feel like them yeah and having that externalized 00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:12.789 can can be really healthy um it's actually similar 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:13.950 to some stuff we're going to be talking about 00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:15.710 in an episode in a couple of weeks that we have 00:19:15.710 --> 00:19:17.210 with an author who's going to be chatting to 00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:19.509 us about dark romance and pitch black romance 00:19:19.509 --> 00:19:22.470 and how particularly for women but for increasingly 00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:26.289 people in general that is becoming a way of externalizing 00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:28.230 some of the most fucked up things that rattle 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:30.269 around in their heads and how healing that can 00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:32.930 be for sort of overcoming shame and i feel like 00:19:32.930 --> 00:19:35.950 it's a very different genre and it's a very different 00:19:35.950 --> 00:19:38.210 vibe but i feel like the piano teacher really 00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:40.769 nails that as well i think What was interesting 00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:43.069 about what you just said there was it made me 00:19:43.069 --> 00:19:44.769 smile a little bit because you were talking about 00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:46.769 kind of consensual kink, which is obviously what 00:19:46.769 --> 00:19:49.950 we do. Yeah. Heavily negotiated, always consensual. 00:19:50.029 --> 00:19:53.490 But the way that we do that, and you've said 00:19:53.490 --> 00:19:56.210 before on this very here award winning podcast, 00:19:56.509 --> 00:20:00.609 is that, yes, it's important that it's consensual, 00:20:00.609 --> 00:20:02.710 but you want your consent to be as far away from 00:20:02.710 --> 00:20:05.170 the moment as possible. Yeah. So actually what 00:20:05.170 --> 00:20:09.299 you're experiencing in the moment. is probably 00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:13.000 more like what happens in the movie yeah i think 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.180 that's fair definitely in terms of the the feel 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:17.599 of it the level of violence in the final scene 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.039 i would say we would struggle to justify under 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.799 rack yes i don't want to be punched and kicked 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.039 in the face no i mean i kind of do but it wouldn't 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.000 be safe yeah um and that scene obviously involves 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.000 a non -consenting third party as well because 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:32.619 her mother is locked in the next room while it's 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.299 happening hearing everything so absolutely i 00:20:35.299 --> 00:20:38.380 i want no part in that um but yeah a lot of the 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:40.279 stuff we do on the surface if you're a fly on 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.160 the wall watching it very much looks like non 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.319 -consensual um and in the moment if i get into 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.319 the headspace deep enough and we add enough to 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:49.259 keep it intense enough it can it can feel non 00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.980 -consensual while also having that double think 00:20:51.980 --> 00:20:53.859 going on of knowing that it is knowing that we 00:20:53.859 --> 00:20:56.160 consented and we negotiated and we put all the 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.779 safety planning in place and knowing that i can 00:20:58.779 --> 00:21:01.799 just fall into those intense feelings while knowing 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.759 that they're not completely real yeah yeah Yeah. 00:21:04.819 --> 00:21:07.059 Which is also what a movie does because it's 00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:08.920 not real. It's not real. But you can feel stuff 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.240 along with the characters. True. Like another 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.339 aspect of the non -consensual, poorly negotiated, 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:18.579 definitely not very rack of them approach is 00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:20.740 there's quite a lot of their interactions are 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:23.400 quite manipulative and kind of coercive on both 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:25.880 sides. Definitely. The movie is kind of set up 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.279 as she's the one doing the manipulating and she's 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:31.779 the one doing the coercing of this naive but 00:21:31.779 --> 00:21:35.960 pretty awful. young man yeah but it kind of goes 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.240 both ways doesn't it it's it's there is definitely 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.880 elements of her kind of manipulating the situation 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.720 and trying to almost coerce him into doing things 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:49.519 but he's not great yeah there are a lot of times 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:51.220 where he just grabs her and starts doing stuff 00:21:51.220 --> 00:21:53.480 to her without her consent even before the the 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:57.180 final rape scene um there are a lot of times 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.099 where he will say sort of guilting coercive things 00:22:00.099 --> 00:22:02.200 to her like you know you can't get a man riled 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:03.900 up like this and then pull away and things like 00:22:03.900 --> 00:22:06.160 that where he acts as if he's entitled to sex 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.779 because she's kissed him um they both at different 00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:12.410 times and in different ways push each other's 00:22:12.410 --> 00:22:14.410 boundaries or fully just step over each other's 00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:16.829 boundaries with no regard for them yeah and it's 00:22:16.829 --> 00:22:18.230 interesting because on the surface you could 00:22:18.230 --> 00:22:20.569 very much see it as a from two different perspectives 00:22:20.569 --> 00:22:22.589 you could see it as a one -sided power imbalance 00:22:22.589 --> 00:22:26.029 where one she is a teacher he is an adult but 00:22:26.029 --> 00:22:29.109 he is coming to her to be taught um he is younger 00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:31.470 than her she is really well established in her 00:22:31.470 --> 00:22:33.190 field you know there's a power imbalance there 00:22:33.190 --> 00:22:35.549 but on the flip side she's asking him to dominate 00:22:35.549 --> 00:22:38.069 her and at times he is violent towards her so 00:22:38.069 --> 00:22:39.710 you could also see it entirely one -sided from 00:22:39.710 --> 00:22:41.930 that perspective is she's this sexually repressed 00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:43.569 teacher who doesn't really know what she's getting 00:22:43.569 --> 00:22:45.930 into and then this man is pushing her boundaries 00:22:45.930 --> 00:22:49.349 coercing her assaulting her multiple times um 00:22:49.349 --> 00:22:51.930 and you see it as abusive in that direction but 00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:55.910 the way that power exists in both of them is 00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:58.329 so different from each other that they are able 00:22:58.329 --> 00:23:00.049 to do each other quite a lot of harm at different 00:23:00.049 --> 00:23:02.670 times in the movie which i yeah as an examination 00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:04.950 of power rather than consensual power exchange 00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:08.849 i find really really interesting yeah which is 00:23:08.849 --> 00:23:10.329 also something i really liked with baby girl 00:23:10.329 --> 00:23:12.230 which is another one that you weren't the biggest 00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:17.220 fan of um but we've got a older female ceo who's 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:20.440 also sexually submissive, with a younger male 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.099 dominant who is an intern, I believe, in her 00:23:23.099 --> 00:23:25.799 company. So it's one of those things where the 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.740 power, the sort of real world power, is all one 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:33.059 -sided. But the sexual power and the power in 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.319 their relationship often drifts over to him, 00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:37.079 but with some push and pull because of her position. 00:23:37.779 --> 00:23:41.180 And I really like that because it didn't put 00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:43.960 them into too neat. clear boxes where this is 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:45.599 dominant and this is submissive and there is 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.680 no no blaring yeah i enjoy that yeah that's fair 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.680 we should probably watch baby girl again and 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.599 do it as an episode maybe i will go into it with 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:55.660 a slightly different perspective i agree but 00:23:55.660 --> 00:23:57.940 the next movie we watch should be one that you 00:23:57.940 --> 00:23:59.599 either already know you like or are confident 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:01.279 that you're going to because i feel bad that 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.539 we're like we've had crash we've had the piano 00:24:03.539 --> 00:24:05.779 teacher if we do baby girl next you're just you're 00:24:05.779 --> 00:24:08.180 gonna veto any more movie episodes yeah true 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:13.250 true i Without wanting to sound like a bloodite, 00:24:13.269 --> 00:24:15.690 my concern is that a lot of the movies that are 00:24:15.690 --> 00:24:19.970 about kink or BDSM or deviant sexuality or whatever 00:24:19.970 --> 00:24:22.450 kind of topics you might want to cover are going 00:24:22.450 --> 00:24:25.869 to be pretentious art school nonsense. I mean, 00:24:25.910 --> 00:24:27.750 yeah, one that's really high on my list to do 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:30.269 is Nymphomaniac, which, again, I absolutely love. 00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.670 But it's you're going to hate it. And it's four 00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:35.289 hours. You're going to hate it for a really long 00:24:35.289 --> 00:24:42.460 time. You know, yeah. I just really struggle 00:24:42.460 --> 00:24:44.720 with that kind of movie. Yeah. It's a bit like, 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:46.240 just to go completely off topic, it's a bit like 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.259 watching the Oscar movies every year. There's 00:24:48.259 --> 00:24:50.480 some really, really good movies that are nominated 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.240 for that. But there are also some movies that 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.079 are really hard work. Yeah. Because they're trying 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.500 to create something which is worthy of an Oscar. 00:24:59.210 --> 00:25:01.650 And you can see the workings. And you can see 00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.990 them doing it. And I'm very unforgiving of that 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:06.670 if they're not good enough to be worth my effort 00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:09.170 and time in engaging with it. But when they do 00:25:09.170 --> 00:25:12.210 it right, I absolutely love it. And I think sometimes 00:25:12.210 --> 00:25:13.990 with the Oscar movies, I feel like your tolerance 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:15.809 for it is higher than mine because I'm really 00:25:15.809 --> 00:25:19.210 picky. I have to really like a movie to be willing 00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:22.269 to sort of put in the extra brain work to understand 00:25:22.269 --> 00:25:24.569 what they're saying to me. If I don't love it 00:25:24.569 --> 00:25:26.769 in the first 20 minutes, then I start to switch 00:25:26.769 --> 00:25:29.359 off from that. Yeah. Where a lot of the time 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:31.019 you give a really fair chance to Oscar movies 00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:33.119 where if it was down to me, I would be switching 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.140 them off. Yeah. And that's fair. And that's because 00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:38.119 I make a bit of a game of it. Yeah. I like to 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:40.200 watch the movies that are nominated for Oscars. 00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:42.519 Yeah. And I like to be able to watch because 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.160 I like to watch the Oscars. And I like to be 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.220 able to watch it with a bit of a view on what 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:49.119 I think should win. Yeah. Rather than just knowing 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.859 a handful of the most popular or most famous, 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.279 most well advertised one. So yeah, maybe I am 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:59.119 a little bit more. more forgiving um of those 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.779 films so what what i want is a film that is about 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:08.680 deviant sexuality kink or bdsm which doesn't 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:13.079 have to be a kind of popular populist movie but 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:17.519 just well made you know and and telling a good 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.380 story and being really clever in the way that 00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:21.809 it does it you want like a clear beginning middle 00:26:21.809 --> 00:26:24.170 and end sort of narrative where you understand 00:26:24.170 --> 00:26:26.369 what the character's motivations are without 00:26:26.369 --> 00:26:28.890 having to interpret symbolism too much is that 00:26:28.890 --> 00:26:31.130 kind of the vibe you want i don't think it's 00:26:31.130 --> 00:26:34.930 quite that stark but somewhere between the two 00:26:34.930 --> 00:26:38.670 yeah like you know as well as we'll come on to 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:41.099 And we've already mentioned there's a lot in 00:26:41.099 --> 00:26:43.660 The Piano Teacher which is about being disconnected 00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:45.880 and being isolated in the same way that Crash 00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.900 did. But you can achieve that without disconnecting 00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:53.380 and isolating and alienating your audience. Maybe 00:26:53.380 --> 00:26:55.160 I am asking too much. I guess there's something 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.359 about my perspective as well. Films like The 00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:02.799 Piano Teacher have a bit of a reputation as being 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.619 shocking and disturbing. Those kind of words 00:27:05.619 --> 00:27:07.819 are applied to it by the general population. 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:13.019 And from my perspective, as a kinky, dominant, 00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.940 sadist, physically and emotionally sadist person, 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.140 I watched The Piano Teacher and went, looks like 00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:22.319 a lot of the stuff that happens in our house. 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:26.920 Not all of it. Obviously, there are elements 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.839 of it, like you've already said, that would not 00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:31.680 be safe or ethical for us to do. But it's not 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.640 a million miles away from some of the stuff that 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.019 we will consensually engage in and enjoy. Yeah, 00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:39.329 I think movies like... like The Piano Teacher 00:27:39.329 --> 00:27:41.710 and like Crash, the people who find them extremely 00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:45.549 shocking are not generally people who have... 00:27:45.549 --> 00:27:48.509 Not saying that they don't have sort of interesting 00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:50.849 or varied sex lives, but they're maybe not branching 00:27:50.849 --> 00:27:53.369 out into some of the heavier ends of kink. No. 00:27:54.250 --> 00:27:56.230 Because, yeah, if you do, although there will 00:27:56.230 --> 00:27:57.470 be things in those kind of movies that you'll 00:27:57.470 --> 00:27:58.890 see and go, yeah, I wouldn't do that. That's 00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:01.369 not acceptable. That's not okay. That's not safe. 00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:04.190 There won't be a lot in it where you can't imagine 00:28:04.190 --> 00:28:06.589 why someone would like it. Yeah. And that's... 00:28:06.589 --> 00:28:09.839 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, just 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:11.420 as we've been talking there, it's kind of, I 00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:15.740 worry with these artfully made, ambiguous, shocking 00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:18.839 and disturbing films that are made around kink 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:23.259 and BDSM and deviant sexuality. It feels a little 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:26.339 bit contrived to achieve the shock and the outrage 00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:29.259 and the disturbance by focusing on something 00:28:29.259 --> 00:28:31.559 that is a very real part of people's sexuality. 00:28:32.299 --> 00:28:35.039 Like sadism and masochism are very real parts 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.759 of people's sexual identity. Yeah. And actually, 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.539 if you're just using that as a vehicle to shock 00:28:41.539 --> 00:28:44.619 and disturb and titillate your audience, then 00:28:44.619 --> 00:28:47.579 actually you can fuck off. I can see that, yeah. 00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:49.319 So I have that suspicion in the back of my head 00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:50.880 with films like this. Are you actually trying 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:55.359 to do an intelligent social commentary? Or are 00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:57.220 you just making a film that's going to get you 00:28:57.220 --> 00:28:58.900 famous and probably get you mentioned at Cannes? 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.359 Yeah. And I personally, I would put The Piano 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:05.119 Teacher in. in the first box if they're doing 00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.019 it for the right reasons to make a point because 00:29:07.019 --> 00:29:10.140 the more i think about it and both times i've 00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:12.839 watched it the more sort of just fires off for 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.440 me in my head about it where i feel like although 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.319 it is a movie about sadism and masochism i think 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.079 a lot of what it's about is more about the disconnection 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.579 that we're going to come on to and about what 00:29:24.579 --> 00:29:27.279 happens when you have desire without empathy 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.519 um which is very much i would say the case for 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.269 both of the main characters where my interpretation 00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:37.210 is that erica sees walter as the sort of symbolic 00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:39.309 realization of all the fantasies that she's been 00:29:39.309 --> 00:29:42.690 having alone of this is someone who i can bring 00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:46.210 out these qualities in that will be able to deliver 00:29:46.210 --> 00:29:48.009 all of these things that i want to happen to 00:29:48.009 --> 00:29:50.970 me he has a darkness to him he has a violent 00:29:50.970 --> 00:29:54.009 edge to him and she wants to nurture that and 00:29:54.009 --> 00:29:56.789 find out what it can deliver but it's seeing 00:29:56.789 --> 00:29:59.170 him as a kink dispenser essentially she's seeing 00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:01.269 him as what he can provide and what she can make 00:30:01.269 --> 00:30:03.049 use of him for even though she's wanting to cast 00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:05.670 him in a dominant role where walter sees her 00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:09.440 as this sort of idealized fantasy figure that 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.039 he has a crush on, and as soon as he finds out 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:14.579 that the idealised fantasy he has isn't who she 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:16.380 actually is on the inside, that her sexuality 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:18.839 isn't going to be about yielding to him and doing 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:20.880 things the way that he wants them to be and giving 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.619 him everything he wants as soon as he demands 00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:26.380 it, then he is actively disgusted by her. And 00:30:26.380 --> 00:30:28.400 I don't think his disgust is primarily about 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:30.799 her masochism, that's what he expresses disgust 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.319 about, but I think his disgust is about her lack 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.799 of compliance. Right. She is not the... meek 00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.359 submissive woman that he had cast her as in his 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.619 head when he saw that she was quiet and restrained 00:30:44.619 --> 00:30:46.299 and repressed he probably thought not a lot of 00:30:46.299 --> 00:30:48.859 sexual experience gonna be absolutely desperate 00:30:48.859 --> 00:30:51.039 for a little bit of attention a little bit of 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:52.880 love and by saying and doing a few of the right 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:54.940 things i can get anything i want from her yeah 00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:56.920 and as soon as he found out that's not who she 00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.900 was he didn't want it anymore but he still found 00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:03.460 himself fascinated by her and that that mutual 00:31:03.460 --> 00:31:05.660 objectification between them and the inability 00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:07.619 for either of them to see the other as a whole 00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:10.460 person yeah that felt like more of the point 00:31:10.460 --> 00:31:12.799 to me than the masochism and so bringing masochism 00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:16.480 into that yes it's to a mainstream audience probably 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.940 very shocking but it also creates sort of a visual 00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:24.500 language for the intensity of that yeah of the 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:28.559 the sort of in a war that they're both having 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:30.940 with these idealized versions of each other that 00:31:30.940 --> 00:31:32.859 they've created and the refusal of the other 00:31:32.859 --> 00:31:36.200 to comply with it and the messiness of that all 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:39.240 spilling out and that like i said desire without 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.859 empathy and how messy and damaging and actually 00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:45.880 violent that is in itself you kind of to show 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.599 that in a movie you need some violence yeah i 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:50.720 think that's yeah that's why i think there was 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.460 masochism in it yeah and i really like that that 00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:57.240 sort of tension between them explores a corruption 00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.640 story but not in the stereotypical way you think 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.140 of corruption as like corruption of innocence 00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:05.640 there's someone who is completely you know sexually 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:08.839 inexperienced never had a bad thought about anyone 00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:11.380 in their life being led down a bad path by another 00:32:11.380 --> 00:32:13.500 person it's kind of what you think of as a corruption 00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:17.160 storyline walter is not that He's very much corrupted 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.200 over the course of The Piano Teacher, but he's 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:22.039 definitely not an innocent. He is, I would say 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:23.859 the early scenes we see of Walter, he's a rapist 00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:28.000 in training already. Like, entitled, pushy, no 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.380 regard for boundaries, very arrogant, very demanding. 00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:35.680 And as I said already, kind of... has put erica 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:39.940 in a box and will react very hostile to any indication 00:32:39.940 --> 00:32:42.380 that she doesn't fit that box for him so it's 00:32:42.380 --> 00:32:45.200 not an innocent being corrupted what it is is 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.839 is her being drawn to those worst parts of him 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:50.240 and setting out to bring them out more and more 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.940 and more for her own needs yeah um and With the 00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:56.619 ambiguity of the ending, it's debatable whether 00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:59.099 she succeeds in that or loses control of that 00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:01.660 process or a little of both. But that's certainly 00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:03.619 what the early stages of their relationship were 00:33:03.619 --> 00:33:06.980 about. She saw something violent in him and wanted 00:33:06.980 --> 00:33:09.259 to make use of it, which I thought was a really 00:33:09.259 --> 00:33:11.900 interesting way of exploring corruption without 00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:14.359 having to put him, you know, wearing a white 00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:17.019 dress and a halo. to to tell that story yeah 00:33:17.019 --> 00:33:19.440 yeah almost that kind of i can make him worse 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.460 yeah sort of instead of i can fix him yeah i 00:33:22.460 --> 00:33:26.900 can make him even worse um yeah because he's 00:33:26.900 --> 00:33:28.599 a bit of a shit isn't he i mean his mates are 00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:30.920 a bit a bit shitty yeah you know there's a couple 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:33.640 of scenes like the the one on the ice rink where 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:35.960 they go out to play ice hockey and just completely 00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:39.359 bulldoze these two women who are doing ice dance 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.019 and she's off in the corner kind of watching 00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:44.859 it going oh yeah yeah clearly excited or interested 00:33:44.859 --> 00:33:48.039 or aroused by what he's doing yeah so yeah i 00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:49.440 don't think it would have worked if he had been 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.519 innocent no like the way that things went would 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.660 have seemed unbelievable i wouldn't have been 00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:56.059 believable that she would have been interested 00:33:56.059 --> 00:33:59.400 in him anyway yeah and the way that he responded 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.140 to to his sort of shock at what she was asking 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:04.559 for i think would have been very different um 00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:06.839 yeah because so much of his reaction to that 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.400 is coming from his entitlement and feeling like 00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.219 what he what he wants isn't going to be delivered 00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:14.239 by this woman because she's a huge pervert so 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.000 the severity of his rejection of her initially 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:20.440 i think is yet another of his red flags you needed 00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.619 you needed him to be full of red flags to tell 00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:25.519 the story that i was sorry yeah yeah yeah yeah 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.380 he's not gonna get his meat compliant little 00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:30.420 woman is he no definitely not me one of the themes 00:34:30.420 --> 00:34:32.559 that comes through quite clearly in the film 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.630 is about people being disconnected and people 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:39.929 feeling apart from the world um erica is very 00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:43.449 in her professional life very aloof and a lot 00:34:43.449 --> 00:34:45.949 of her sexual exploration or her exploration 00:34:45.949 --> 00:34:50.289 of her masochism is is done alone so you know 00:34:50.289 --> 00:34:52.210 stuff we've talked about about her self -harm 00:34:52.210 --> 00:34:54.510 when she went to the drive -in even when she 00:34:54.510 --> 00:34:57.150 goes to the sex shop you know she's the only 00:34:57.150 --> 00:35:00.280 woman in the room only woman in the shop And 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.260 she goes into one of the little cubby holes where 00:35:02.260 --> 00:35:04.719 you can watch the films, kind of no interaction 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.619 with everybody else. In fact, the only interaction 00:35:06.619 --> 00:35:10.199 she has with anybody in any of those places is 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:12.179 when she catches two of her students looking 00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:14.500 at porn mags. Yeah. And she shames them for it. 00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:17.880 Which is hilarious. Which is... Very, very hypocritical, 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.400 but completely on brand for her. Yeah, because 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:22.679 she's incredibly cruel to her students just all 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.579 the time. Their piano skills, their personalities, 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.460 all of it she will rip into them for. Yeah, yeah. 00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:31.460 So I can see the point of that. She's kind of 00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:34.360 separating herself from the people around her 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.659 and separating herself from the world. And the 00:35:37.659 --> 00:35:41.059 only way that she can feel real is by the things 00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:43.699 that she does to herself. And then she looked 00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:48.170 to Walter to deliver that. for her like you say 00:35:48.170 --> 00:35:50.070 like you've said in that kind of kink dispensary 00:35:50.070 --> 00:35:54.769 way and i can get that logically but i've one 00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:56.570 of the things i really struggled with this film 00:35:56.570 --> 00:35:59.010 was because it was done in a way that made you 00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:02.730 feel disconnected you were supposed to feel the 00:36:02.730 --> 00:36:05.030 isolation that these people feel and the disconnection 00:36:05.030 --> 00:36:07.050 that these people feel and the alienation or 00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:09.590 whatever word you want to describe to it that 00:36:09.590 --> 00:36:12.909 didn't work for me because it made me feel disconnected 00:36:12.909 --> 00:36:15.110 and alienated from what was happening on the 00:36:15.110 --> 00:36:19.130 screen You know, it didn't click in that way. 00:36:19.210 --> 00:36:20.929 And in some ways it kind of makes me feel a little 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:22.750 bit like I'm not smart enough to understand the 00:36:22.750 --> 00:36:25.690 film because I didn't engage with it in that 00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:28.510 way, in that kind of knowing way. Oh yes, this 00:36:28.510 --> 00:36:31.269 is what the artist is trying to create. It left 00:36:31.269 --> 00:36:32.849 me feeling a little bit cold and like, well, 00:36:32.849 --> 00:36:35.210 I don't really care. Yeah, and I don't think 00:36:35.210 --> 00:36:37.900 that's a... an intelligence thing i think different 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:40.239 movies are always going to work differently for 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:41.880 different people regardless of how smart you 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:44.460 are it's entirely possible i'm just a pretentious 00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.300 dickhead who likes to think too hard about things 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:49.659 and you know no one's right or wrong here i think 00:36:49.659 --> 00:36:52.800 sometimes movies that kind of instead of setting 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.800 out to tell you a story and entertain you that 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:59.260 instead set out to make you identify with a character 00:36:59.260 --> 00:37:00.840 or feel what a character's feeling and kind of 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.699 draw you into it they often can be a little bit 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:06.340 more of a headache to appreciate they're not 00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:08.679 really movies that you enjoy it's more of an 00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:12.059 immersive experience and and a piece of art and 00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:15.179 that doesn't mean that you are like better or 00:37:15.179 --> 00:37:18.500 smarter or anything else if you like those kind 00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:21.840 of movies or if you like to just watch a story 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:25.000 yeah both of those are completely valid um and 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:27.440 and meet different needs and sometimes it's even 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:29.380 just down to like the timing of when you saw 00:37:29.380 --> 00:37:34.369 a I don't know if Funny Games would have had 00:37:34.369 --> 00:37:36.230 so much of an impact on me if I'd watched it 00:37:36.230 --> 00:37:38.289 in my 30s and had already kind of got a really 00:37:38.289 --> 00:37:40.969 sort of good level of self -awareness about myself 00:37:40.969 --> 00:37:42.809 and knew myself really well. I think watching 00:37:42.809 --> 00:37:44.670 something like that in a transitional phase of 00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:47.309 life where I was figuring out who I was and then 00:37:47.309 --> 00:37:49.989 having myself like violently confronted with 00:37:49.989 --> 00:37:54.449 things about myself was like an experience that 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:57.170 can't be replicated. Yeah. So it might be that 00:37:57.170 --> 00:37:59.590 the day you watched The Piano Teacher was not 00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:01.900 the day for you to... sit for a couple of hours 00:38:01.900 --> 00:38:04.900 and experience sort of sexual repression and 00:38:04.900 --> 00:38:09.059 disconnection from the world through a woman 00:38:09.059 --> 00:38:13.400 in austria yeah that's fair that's fair and i 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:16.699 think it is it goes back to what i said before 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:19.480 kind of watching it as i do in my mid -40s when 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:23.320 i've really kind of stepped into my identity 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.000 my kink identity and my my sadism yeah you know 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:28.780 with the with the kind of dynamic that we've 00:38:28.780 --> 00:38:30.820 got this is the most authentic i've ever felt 00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:33.400 in my entire life so that kind of raises the 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:36.199 bar a little bit about what is shocking and disturbing 00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:39.760 to me but also means that i find that kind of 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.739 separation and repression almost feels a little 00:38:42.739 --> 00:38:45.500 bit foreign to me now yeah i wonder if you might 00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:47.139 have experienced the movie differently if you'd 00:38:47.139 --> 00:38:50.159 watched it 10 years ago yeah Yeah, that's what 00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.280 I was kind of thinking as well. If I'd watched 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:53.960 this, I don't know if I would have been... How 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:56.940 old is it? 20 years old? About that, yeah. Mid 00:38:56.940 --> 00:38:59.260 to late 20s when it came out. Maybe I would have 00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:01.679 felt differently about it. But yeah, maybe that's 00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.920 the bit that I'm struggling with a little bit 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:07.159 on this. I don't relate to that. I don't relate 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.320 to the repression part of it because I'm not 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:13.300 repressing that. And I don't relate to the idea 00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:15.599 of it being kind of shocking and disturbing because 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:18.750 my baseline is different. Yeah. To the... to 00:39:18.750 --> 00:39:25.510 the average movie -watching audience. But you 00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:28.070 did have some thoughts about the way that it 00:39:28.070 --> 00:39:30.329 portrayed that kind of isolation and disconnection 00:39:30.329 --> 00:39:34.230 in the movie. Yeah, like you, it made me feel 00:39:34.230 --> 00:39:38.429 really disconnected and sort of cold. But I loved 00:39:38.429 --> 00:39:40.829 that. I loved the immersion of it. And it really 00:39:40.829 --> 00:39:43.829 felt like it was creating and inviting us to 00:39:43.829 --> 00:39:46.570 experience with her the contrast between the... 00:39:47.309 --> 00:39:51.289 intensity and rage and really, really raw desire 00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:53.170 that are going on under the surface with Erica. 00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:56.179 with who she is and who she has to be on the 00:39:56.179 --> 00:39:59.179 outside of that um she has a very controlling 00:39:59.179 --> 00:40:01.199 mother who monitors everywhere that she goes 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.800 and everything that she does so even just being 00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.719 able to have time to explore her sexuality is 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.440 very difficult for her she's in this line of 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.579 work which is very much driven by sort of respectability 00:40:12.579 --> 00:40:15.400 and class and having to present yourself in a 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:17.739 certain way that would be really at odds with 00:40:17.739 --> 00:40:20.380 not just her sexuality but sexuality in general 00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:24.099 and experiencing her navigate that really sort 00:40:24.099 --> 00:40:25.820 of made me feel connected to her as a character 00:40:25.820 --> 00:40:28.400 her life is very different from mine and her 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.280 sexuality is very different from mine we're both 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.739 masochists and that's about about all we've got 00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:37.380 but I have very strong memories of the period 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.280 of time where I was repressing my masochism of 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:40.980 just feeling like there was a storm under the 00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:44.079 surface all the time like there was just this 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:47.900 internal screaming going on all the time and 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:50.059 because I wasn't letting it out I never felt 00:40:50.059 --> 00:40:53.590 quite real I never felt quite present in my relationships 00:40:53.590 --> 00:40:55.630 and in sex it was always like i was watching 00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:59.170 it from 30 feet away and a movie that really 00:40:59.170 --> 00:41:02.329 manages to capture how that feels like and the 00:41:02.329 --> 00:41:05.469 relief and the emotional messiness that comes 00:41:05.469 --> 00:41:07.449 with finally letting that crack and come out 00:41:07.449 --> 00:41:10.769 yeah um that's what really hit home for me with 00:41:10.769 --> 00:41:12.849 it yeah because that's the only time that you 00:41:12.849 --> 00:41:15.469 really see her present i suppose isn't it is 00:41:15.469 --> 00:41:17.230 when she's doing those things you know you can 00:41:17.230 --> 00:41:19.070 kind of see it on her face when she cuts herself 00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:23.719 in the bathroom And even at the drive -ins. Because 00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:25.579 she pees, doesn't she? She watches them have 00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:27.739 sex and then she pees. Yeah. And then they get 00:41:27.739 --> 00:41:30.159 out of the car. And chase her. And chase her 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.739 away. That's one of the few moments in the movie 00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:36.179 where she kind of comes to life. Yeah. For me, 00:41:36.219 --> 00:41:38.360 it's because she's feeling something. Yeah. She's 00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:42.099 letting that stuff come to the surface and experience 00:41:42.099 --> 00:41:44.599 it. And then she runs away and then she buttons 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:49.000 up again. Yeah. You know? Or she leaves the sex 00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.510 shop. buttons up again and shames the teenagers 00:41:52.510 --> 00:41:55.710 for looking at porn magazines yeah and the whole 00:41:55.710 --> 00:41:57.590 pattern until she gets involved with walter the 00:41:57.590 --> 00:41:59.630 whole pattern is that she is exploring sexuality 00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:03.789 and desire but without connection and that having 00:42:03.789 --> 00:42:05.849 sort of persisted so late into her life i don't 00:42:05.849 --> 00:42:07.550 know exactly how old she's meant to be but she's 00:42:07.550 --> 00:42:11.599 probably in her 30s yeah um you know, long enough 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:14.019 without connection to another person that that 00:42:14.019 --> 00:42:16.400 has become her norm, which I think is a big part 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.079 of where the lack of sort of ability to see Walter 00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.280 as a whole person and the lack of ability to 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.219 make any attempt to communicate with him as a 00:42:25.219 --> 00:42:27.960 fellow partner in the relationship and someone 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:29.639 who might have his own desires he wants to explore 00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:32.480 because she's so used to this being a thing that 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:35.239 she does completely alone without any knowledge 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:37.639 or feedback or involvement of another person 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:39.679 that she doesn't know how to be anything else. 00:42:40.110 --> 00:42:43.190 Yeah. It's that really sort of chronic, severe 00:42:43.190 --> 00:42:46.210 isolation. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of like 00:42:46.210 --> 00:42:49.289 the term incel was originally developed by women. 00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:53.230 It was a term for women who had sort of reached 00:42:53.230 --> 00:42:55.570 a point in their life where they had been single 00:42:55.570 --> 00:42:57.329 and sexually inexperienced for so long that it 00:42:57.329 --> 00:42:59.610 felt like an insurmountable barrier to explore 00:42:59.610 --> 00:43:01.110 with anyone else. And then the term has been 00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:04.429 horribly co -opted by misogynist men who think 00:43:04.429 --> 00:43:07.699 that women turning them down. is is a personal 00:43:07.699 --> 00:43:10.280 affront and that obviously is the women who are 00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.059 wrong here and not their own obnoxious behavior 00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:15.320 that is stopping them from getting laid but it 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.659 started as a beginning to understand the the 00:43:18.659 --> 00:43:21.800 not uniquely female experience but an experience 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:25.380 that is maybe more common in women of becoming 00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:29.079 sexually invisible at not even an old age at 00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.760 anything older older than 21 if you haven't made 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:34.880 your sexual debut and established your sexuality 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:36.699 and figured out what you want and figured out 00:43:36.699 --> 00:43:38.969 how to have the confidence to go after it After 00:43:38.969 --> 00:43:41.769 that point, it becomes so much harder year after 00:43:41.769 --> 00:43:43.369 year after year to the point where it becomes 00:43:43.369 --> 00:43:45.690 almost impossible to overcome. And the way that 00:43:45.690 --> 00:43:48.010 a woman who isn't openly expressing sexuality 00:43:48.010 --> 00:43:51.070 becomes completely invisible instead. Yeah. That 00:43:51.070 --> 00:43:53.150 very much felt like what Erica was going through, 00:43:53.210 --> 00:43:55.969 or at least perceiving in herself. Clearly wasn't 00:43:55.969 --> 00:43:58.030 sexually invisible because Walter was very interested, 00:43:58.130 --> 00:44:01.730 but definitely put herself in that box. And there 00:44:01.730 --> 00:44:04.110 was a certain amount of desperation to all of 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.210 her solo exploration of her sexuality, where 00:44:07.210 --> 00:44:09.690 it was both... these needs coming to the surface 00:44:09.690 --> 00:44:12.150 and really just bursting out of her but also 00:44:12.150 --> 00:44:14.150 like almost kind of frantic like this is all 00:44:14.150 --> 00:44:16.170 there is and i have to hold on to this because 00:44:16.170 --> 00:44:18.730 what if even this goes as well yeah like that 00:44:18.730 --> 00:44:22.449 fear of losing that part of herself completely 00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:25.469 that i really like yeah yeah yeah because she 00:44:25.469 --> 00:44:27.730 does go quite hard doesn't she when she kind 00:44:27.730 --> 00:44:31.610 of reveals to walter what she's into she writes 00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:37.309 her um a very long letter outlining everything 00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:40.989 that she wants him to do in almost kind of psychopath 00:44:40.989 --> 00:44:44.909 scrawl as well yeah you know like pages and pages 00:44:44.909 --> 00:44:47.510 of this tiny little wiggly handwriting it made 00:44:47.510 --> 00:44:50.309 me for some reason the image that popped into 00:44:50.309 --> 00:44:53.789 my head is that scene from friends where ross 00:44:53.789 --> 00:45:01.789 says you wrote 18 pages front and back yeah you 00:45:01.789 --> 00:45:07.710 had rambled on It was a little like that, yeah. 00:45:07.869 --> 00:45:10.010 And also like the weird messages you get from 00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:12.670 guys on FetLife that is like, not usually quite 00:45:12.670 --> 00:45:14.829 that long, but like two or three paragraphs of 00:45:14.829 --> 00:45:17.050 explicit detail of what they want. And it's like, 00:45:17.110 --> 00:45:21.789 hello? Yes. What do I do with all of this information? 00:45:22.289 --> 00:45:27.090 Sir, this is a Wendy's. Yeah. And like, Walter 00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:30.210 is not a great person. He has a lot of red flags 00:45:30.210 --> 00:45:35.360 that some therapy would fix. But I did feel a 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.980 bit of sympathy for him when he read that letter. 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:42.340 Because out of the blue, that is quite a lot. 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.219 It is quite a lot to receive, yeah. And quite 00:45:45.219 --> 00:45:48.519 a lot to be told, not only to receive that information, 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:50.380 but to be told you have to just sit and read 00:45:50.380 --> 00:45:51.940 this. She tried to get him to take it away and 00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:55.320 read it by himself. And he refused in typical 00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:57.039 Walter fashion, ignored all of her boundaries, 00:45:57.219 --> 00:45:59.639 followed her home, pushed his way into her house 00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:02.760 and came and sat with her in her room. and then 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.699 agreed to read it after much complaining about 00:46:05.699 --> 00:46:09.360 it. But yeah, to be in a position where you have 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:11.119 a crush on someone and want to hook up with them 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:13.739 and their response is to give you pages and pages 00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:15.360 and pages and tell you to go away and read it 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.579 by yourself. It's quite a lot to handle. Yeah, 00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:20.860 yeah. That scene as well, there was, for such 00:46:20.860 --> 00:46:23.719 a sort of heavy and also quite cold movie, it 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:25.980 had some moments of humour and I think that scene 00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:28.179 was definitely one of them because this takes 00:46:28.179 --> 00:46:30.019 place at Erica's home where she lives with her 00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:32.900 mother. who is extremely controlling and when 00:46:32.900 --> 00:46:35.260 walter pushes his way into the house the mother 00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:39.800 is immediately not happy about this um very displeased 00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:41.239 at the thought that erica might be having some 00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:43.739 sort of relationship and so erica takes walter 00:46:43.739 --> 00:46:46.460 into the bedroom shuts the door and pushes a 00:46:46.460 --> 00:46:48.199 chest of drawers in front of it to keep the mother 00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:50.500 out and her mother is banging on the door trying 00:46:50.500 --> 00:46:52.599 the handle rattling it yelling and screaming 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.000 calling her all sorts of names and then goes 00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:57.039 and sits in the other room like huffs about it 00:46:57.039 --> 00:46:59.260 and throughout this scene while erica's explaining 00:46:59.260 --> 00:47:01.400 her desires walter's reading the letter and walter's 00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:03.460 getting upset and and rejecting her and saying 00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:05.519 this is disgusting all of this really heavy stuff 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.019 going on in the bedroom just every now and again 00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:09.519 we cut to the mother just absolutely furious 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.820 that she's being left out of what's going on 00:47:11.820 --> 00:47:14.159 and trying to listen at the door and things yeah 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.139 yeah um she's kind of hate watching tv isn't 00:47:17.139 --> 00:47:19.480 she well well while all of this is going on yeah 00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:23.719 thanks um and it is funny but also quite uncomfortable 00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:26.239 as well because it's such an abnormal reaction 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:29.320 to your adult daughter wanting to have a conversation 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.820 in her room or even wanting to have sex in her 00:47:31.820 --> 00:47:34.059 room she is a grown -ass adult yeah go put tv 00:47:34.059 --> 00:47:36.639 on and leave her to it yeah it's such a disproportionate 00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:38.320 reaction i think one of the things the movie 00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:42.280 does a lot of is creates moments of discomfort 00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.039 like we talked about i think how shocking the 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:48.389 movie is depends a lot on on your level of sensitivity 00:47:48.389 --> 00:47:50.449 and what your experiences are and what kind of 00:47:50.449 --> 00:47:52.230 things you've watched before. But I think the 00:47:52.230 --> 00:47:54.949 discomfort is very universal. I think there are 00:47:54.949 --> 00:47:56.610 not many people who would be able to sit through 00:47:56.610 --> 00:47:59.250 that movie without ever feeling uncomfortable 00:47:59.250 --> 00:48:02.989 and awkward and not really knowing where to look 00:48:02.989 --> 00:48:06.630 at times. I think so. And one scene in particular, 00:48:06.670 --> 00:48:08.469 after all of that happens, where they're in the 00:48:08.469 --> 00:48:10.170 bedroom and she's banging on the door and stuff, 00:48:10.250 --> 00:48:12.409 is when they go to bed that night and one of 00:48:12.409 --> 00:48:14.559 the... really uncomfortable things throughout 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.460 this movie is that they share a bed yeah erica 00:48:17.460 --> 00:48:19.659 and her mother and there is another bedroom the 00:48:19.659 --> 00:48:21.380 bedroom where erica had the conversation with 00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:23.179 walter is her bedroom but she doesn't sleep in 00:48:23.179 --> 00:48:24.840 there she sleeps in the bed with her mother sleeps 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:27.440 in bed with her mother um but they're lying in 00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.639 bed and all of a sudden erica climbs on top of 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:33.139 her mum and starts passionately kissing her yeah 00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:37.039 and that talk about an uncomfortable thing to 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:40.780 to watch and from my perspective like that really 00:48:40.780 --> 00:48:44.639 visceral kind of what the fuck is going on what 00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:49.039 what is all of this um seemingly out of nowhere 00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:51.780 i know we've got they've got an abusive relationship 00:48:51.780 --> 00:48:53.900 but that's the first time you see something like 00:48:53.900 --> 00:48:55.460 that between the two of them it's usually kind 00:48:55.460 --> 00:48:59.099 of fighting and arguing yeah but they've throughout 00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:03.139 the movie they are it's not a happy closeness 00:49:03.139 --> 00:49:05.739 but they are incredibly close and enmeshed with 00:49:05.739 --> 00:49:09.239 each other um where the mother particularly seems 00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:13.340 to really depend on erica being present at all 00:49:13.340 --> 00:49:15.420 times can't handle any level of distance can't 00:49:15.420 --> 00:49:17.460 handle not knowing where she is yeah you know 00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:19.300 calls repeatedly if she's out of the house and 00:49:19.300 --> 00:49:22.559 things like that and that scene is incredibly 00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.019 uncomfortable and shocking and the first time 00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:27.179 i saw it i definitely wasn't expecting it and 00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:28.820 was just like oh my god what the fuck like you 00:49:28.820 --> 00:49:31.420 yeah but it also makes complete sense to me because 00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:33.739 the whole relationship is emotionally incestuous 00:49:33.739 --> 00:49:37.619 yeah where erica has been put in the role of 00:49:38.550 --> 00:49:42.150 of the husband of the parent of everything to 00:49:42.150 --> 00:49:44.369 the mother yeah um and because that's something 00:49:44.369 --> 00:49:46.250 i have some experience of that was very much 00:49:46.250 --> 00:49:48.550 a feature of some of the abuse that i went through 00:49:48.550 --> 00:49:52.190 it's part of what's horrifying about that is 00:49:52.190 --> 00:49:54.889 the adultification that you experience as a child 00:49:54.889 --> 00:49:57.690 and the incredible amount of responsibility part 00:49:57.690 --> 00:49:59.449 of the damage from that comes from the lack of 00:49:59.449 --> 00:50:01.170 healthy boundaries and not knowing how to set 00:50:01.170 --> 00:50:02.809 any boundaries because you've essentially been 00:50:02.809 --> 00:50:05.590 forbidden from having them since birth but part 00:50:05.949 --> 00:50:10.210 of the damage from emotional incest is the constant 00:50:10.210 --> 00:50:12.789 threat of it crossing that line even if nothing 00:50:12.789 --> 00:50:15.329 sexual is ever explicitly said or stated if you 00:50:15.329 --> 00:50:17.510 know the boundaries between you and a parent 00:50:17.510 --> 00:50:20.230 or an adult family member are inappropriate and 00:50:20.230 --> 00:50:22.769 you know that the boundaries that you do have 00:50:22.769 --> 00:50:25.590 are very much within their control to fluctuate 00:50:25.590 --> 00:50:28.670 and change at any time once you become aware 00:50:28.670 --> 00:50:31.429 of the threat of potential sexual abuse once 00:50:31.429 --> 00:50:32.809 you know that that's a thing that can happen 00:50:32.809 --> 00:50:36.139 you constantly feel like it might So when you're 00:50:36.139 --> 00:50:37.940 living under that threat and there's always the 00:50:37.940 --> 00:50:41.179 potential it becomes something more, one way 00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:43.280 to deal with that is to try to avoid the threat 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.079 and that is how most people try to deal with 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:46.659 it and that's definitely how I dealt with it. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:50.480 But I can understand for Erica who has a very 00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.500 strong need to take control of things and has 00:50:53.500 --> 00:50:55.820 a tendency to repress, shut down, repress, shut 00:50:55.820 --> 00:50:58.219 down and then explode. That's her cycle throughout 00:50:58.219 --> 00:51:02.579 of her taking control of that by making the bad 00:51:02.579 --> 00:51:04.829 thing happen. Yeah. It's like, this is clearly 00:51:04.829 --> 00:51:06.750 where this is going. So I'm going to be the one 00:51:06.750 --> 00:51:08.730 that crosses that line, not you claiming control 00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:12.010 over it. Yeah. I think that also ends up meaning 00:51:12.010 --> 00:51:14.250 that her mother's story runs in parallel to hers 00:51:14.250 --> 00:51:17.610 in a way because her mother wants this emotionally 00:51:17.610 --> 00:51:19.949 entangled, emotionally incestuous relationship. 00:51:20.690 --> 00:51:23.429 And she is. pushing for that and creating that 00:51:23.429 --> 00:51:25.190 and forcing it to happen through her control 00:51:25.190 --> 00:51:28.090 and then ultimately gets the conclusion of what 00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:29.849 she has essentially been asking for throughout 00:51:29.849 --> 00:51:32.309 yeah of her daughter becoming sexually confused 00:51:32.309 --> 00:51:35.469 about the nature of their relationship and not 00:51:35.469 --> 00:51:36.829 just kissing her but trying to force herself 00:51:36.829 --> 00:51:38.469 on her like starting to pull up her nightgown 00:51:38.469 --> 00:51:41.230 and things like that and yeah her having to confront 00:51:41.230 --> 00:51:46.570 that thing that she has essentially manipulated 00:51:46.570 --> 00:51:49.269 them both towards yeah and then obviously that 00:51:49.269 --> 00:51:51.769 is is similar to what happens with erica where 00:51:51.769 --> 00:51:53.929 she wants to bring out the violence and the aggression 00:51:53.929 --> 00:51:56.369 in walter she wants him to do all these violent 00:51:56.369 --> 00:51:58.110 things to her part of the letter that she writes 00:51:58.110 --> 00:52:01.309 to him describes a home invasion rape fantasy 00:52:01.309 --> 00:52:03.670 where he breaks into her home locks her mother 00:52:03.670 --> 00:52:06.429 in another room beats her and rapes her and ties 00:52:06.429 --> 00:52:08.409 her up while her mother is banging on the door 00:52:08.409 --> 00:52:10.829 shouting for him to stop and that's exactly what 00:52:10.829 --> 00:52:13.739 happens at the end of the film yeah and so it's 00:52:13.739 --> 00:52:16.199 something about that being careful what you wish 00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:20.320 for i guess and and understanding sort of where 00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:23.079 where those kind of explorations can lead and 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:25.480 then will you actually want what you were chasing 00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:27.960 once you have it yeah that both erica and her 00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.099 mother end up having to deal with yeah but it 00:52:30.099 --> 00:52:32.159 also comes out of fucking nowhere it's easy enough 00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:33.599 to say like oh yeah these are all the themes 00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.280 and the symbolism in hindsight but at the time 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:36.880 it's like jesus fucking christ she's kissing 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:43.280 her mother yes yeah A really uncomfortable thing 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:45.739 to watch. And, you know, given everything I've 00:52:45.739 --> 00:52:49.719 said, one of the genuinely shocking moments of 00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:53.980 the film. Yeah. It was not expecting that at 00:52:53.980 --> 00:52:58.800 all. No. You know? And credit to the director 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:01.679 and the people who made the film. I think, to 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:03.440 be fair to them, the way that they shot it made 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:06.519 that even more so. Yeah. It's quite a still movie. 00:53:07.179 --> 00:53:10.159 Which seems like a really silly thing to say. 00:53:10.750 --> 00:53:12.730 But there aren't lots of cuts. There isn't a 00:53:12.730 --> 00:53:15.949 load of music over it. It is quite cold and quite 00:53:15.949 --> 00:53:19.070 dispassionate. Yeah, quite a lot of static cameras 00:53:19.070 --> 00:53:21.030 and cameras at quite a distance from the characters. 00:53:21.289 --> 00:53:25.809 Yeah, yeah. So that scene and the final scene, 00:53:25.969 --> 00:53:30.650 where the home invasion scene at the end, almost 00:53:30.650 --> 00:53:32.610 kind of filmed in a way that kind of challenges 00:53:32.610 --> 00:53:35.409 you to watch it. Yeah. In a kind of way going, 00:53:35.449 --> 00:53:37.750 you shouldn't be looking at this. But here it 00:53:37.750 --> 00:53:41.199 is. Static camera. This is all you can see. There 00:53:41.199 --> 00:53:44.639 are no cuts to break up what is happening. Deal 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:46.280 with it. Yeah, it's like the movie is making 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:49.059 eye contact with you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which 00:53:49.059 --> 00:53:52.260 is very unsettling. Yeah. I'll be honest with 00:53:52.260 --> 00:53:54.800 you, because we watched it a week ago. I can't 00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:57.280 remember how the final scene is shot, but it 00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.079 feels like it was kind of a single camera. Yeah. 00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:02.280 I don't think there was lots of cuts, which is 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:04.420 quite clever. There's definitely a couple of 00:54:04.420 --> 00:54:06.579 really long takes in there, yeah, which adds 00:54:06.579 --> 00:54:09.269 to that. So if this isn't something you should 00:54:09.269 --> 00:54:11.809 be looking at, but you have to look. Yeah. It's 00:54:11.809 --> 00:54:13.789 confrontational in the same way that Funny Games 00:54:13.789 --> 00:54:16.610 is. Yeah. Like, you sat down to watch this movie. 00:54:16.989 --> 00:54:19.670 Yeah. Deal with it. Deal with it now. Yeah, yeah. 00:54:20.590 --> 00:54:26.699 Or look away, you coward. I think it was, it's 00:54:26.699 --> 00:54:28.340 interesting for me how the film intentionally 00:54:28.340 --> 00:54:31.000 creates a lot of discomfort. And I mean, based 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.539 on the one other film by this director, I've 00:54:32.539 --> 00:54:34.500 seen maybe that he just loves making people uncomfortable. 00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:37.340 But I think for this movie specifically, it felt 00:54:37.340 --> 00:54:40.639 like it was encouraging us to, as with the disconnection, 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:42.219 to sort of step into the skin of the characters 00:54:42.219 --> 00:54:45.239 a bit. Because Erica and Walter are two deeply 00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:49.190 uncomfortable people. um and they are both uncomfortable 00:54:49.190 --> 00:54:52.869 with their sexuality in their own way so erica 00:54:52.869 --> 00:54:56.489 is repressing herself she has these sort of brief 00:54:56.489 --> 00:54:59.469 bursts of letting it out mostly alone then finds 00:54:59.469 --> 00:55:02.690 walter and and lets it out with him sort of more 00:55:02.690 --> 00:55:06.570 full force but with this sort of constant self 00:55:06.570 --> 00:55:09.090 -loathing that overlays it all of knowing that 00:55:09.090 --> 00:55:11.469 this is messy and difficult to deal with and 00:55:11.469 --> 00:55:13.829 she doesn't know how to present that to someone 00:55:13.829 --> 00:55:17.460 and then with walter he puts a lot of the blame 00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.960 of this onto erica and tries to make it her problem 00:55:19.960 --> 00:55:21.719 and saying you know you've got me worked up you 00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:23.119 have to deal with it kind of thing but he is 00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:26.179 clearly completely incapable of sitting with 00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:28.900 desire without action yeah if he wants to fuck 00:55:28.900 --> 00:55:30.559 her he needs to fuck her right there and then 00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:33.239 otherwise it's unbearable for him and he can't 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:37.980 cope like go home and have a wank my guy so he 00:55:37.980 --> 00:55:42.510 doesn't have the the security in his solo sexuality 00:55:42.510 --> 00:55:45.389 to manage his desires almost the opposite of 00:55:45.389 --> 00:55:47.849 erica in a way where he hasn't created this secretive 00:55:47.849 --> 00:55:50.150 inner world to go into so doesn't know where 00:55:50.150 --> 00:55:52.030 to put himself when he doesn't have an outlet 00:55:52.030 --> 00:55:55.610 um and they're both in this so sexually tense 00:55:55.610 --> 00:55:57.889 sexually uncomfortable space for the entire movie 00:55:57.889 --> 00:55:59.989 where what they want is so at odds from each 00:55:59.989 --> 00:56:01.510 other but they're both pushing each other to 00:56:01.510 --> 00:56:03.150 try to cave to each other's demands and they 00:56:03.150 --> 00:56:05.809 don't know themselves sexually and they don't 00:56:05.809 --> 00:56:07.969 have any comfort with themselves sexually it's 00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:11.239 I think something that most perverts will relate 00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:13.480 to to some level. Not that we all behave like 00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:15.219 either of those characters, I certainly hope. 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:18.880 But that feeling of, God, there are so many sexual 00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:21.300 thoughts in me that no one else is going to want 00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:23.219 to understand and I don't know where to put them 00:56:23.219 --> 00:56:25.340 and I don't know how to cope, I think is definitely 00:56:25.340 --> 00:56:27.119 a period that a lot of us have gone through. 00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:30.820 And so the movie having scenes that are really 00:56:30.820 --> 00:56:33.780 uncomfortable, at times shocking, often really 00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:36.320 awkward, like a lot of Erica's social interactions 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.519 are just a little bit awkward and cringy to watch. 00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:42.280 Yeah. Because she's so fucking rude to everybody. 00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:44.619 To everybody. And just the secondhand embarrassment 00:56:44.619 --> 00:56:47.079 sometimes of watching the things that she's saying 00:56:47.079 --> 00:56:49.519 and the way she's behaving is like, oh God, to 00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:51.719 me is more uncomfortable than a lot of the sexual 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:54.980 stuff and violent stuff in the movie. Oh, oh 00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:58.739 no. I think that making the audience as uncomfortable 00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:00.639 as the characters are is again, a really good 00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:03.119 way of, for a movie about two people with very 00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:04.980 limited empathy, it's a good way of making sure 00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:06.699 that you at least get the double dose of it. 00:57:07.059 --> 00:57:11.730 Yeah. I will give the film that. Definitely succeeded 00:57:11.730 --> 00:57:13.429 at being uncomfortable for you, Mix, if nothing 00:57:13.429 --> 00:57:16.610 else. Yes. Which is, again, I think why it's 00:57:16.610 --> 00:57:18.650 a divisive movie. I know there's been, as with 00:57:18.650 --> 00:57:20.070 a lot of movies like this, a lot of controversy 00:57:20.070 --> 00:57:22.110 about some of the specific content, you know, 00:57:22.110 --> 00:57:24.030 the violent and particularly the sexually violent 00:57:24.030 --> 00:57:26.030 content. But I think this is a movie that some 00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:27.989 people would always hate because it makes you 00:57:27.989 --> 00:57:30.329 feel disconnected and it makes you feel uncomfortable. 00:57:31.090 --> 00:57:32.730 Neither of those are feelings that most people 00:57:32.730 --> 00:57:36.969 want to experience ever. No. So I don't think 00:57:36.969 --> 00:57:39.849 it's surprising at all that you... didn't like 00:57:39.849 --> 00:57:41.829 it and i think if you ever wanted to give it 00:57:41.829 --> 00:57:43.530 a second watch and you went in knowing you were 00:57:43.530 --> 00:57:44.989 going to feel that way you might get more out 00:57:44.989 --> 00:57:47.010 of it but also it's okay to just not like a movie 00:57:47.010 --> 00:57:48.690 because it deliberately sets out to make you 00:57:48.690 --> 00:57:50.929 feel like you're having a bad time yeah that 00:57:50.929 --> 00:57:54.449 is true that is true yeah maybe i will like i 00:57:54.449 --> 00:57:56.969 mean it's i said earlier on we should probably 00:57:56.969 --> 00:57:58.889 watch baby girl again i think there is an element 00:57:58.889 --> 00:58:01.670 of that as well that wasn't about discomfort 00:58:01.670 --> 00:58:04.469 or anything like that i just thought the male 00:58:04.469 --> 00:58:08.809 lead was a dick um I didn't relate to it. I think, 00:58:08.809 --> 00:58:10.750 not to pivot to a completely different movie, 00:58:10.809 --> 00:58:13.010 but I think you related to it a lot more than 00:58:13.010 --> 00:58:15.289 I did. Yeah. And you probably related to the 00:58:15.289 --> 00:58:18.409 piano teacher more than I did. Yeah. That's probably 00:58:18.409 --> 00:58:19.929 why you're getting, that might be part of why 00:58:19.929 --> 00:58:21.449 you're getting more from it as well. It's like 00:58:21.449 --> 00:58:23.329 I didn't have a character in Baby Girl that I 00:58:23.329 --> 00:58:29.159 saw. like related to yeah no i can totally see 00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:30.840 that because the dominant in baby girl was nothing 00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:33.039 like you yeah and there's there's no one in the 00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:35.659 piano teacher who's like you i think yeah if 00:58:35.659 --> 00:58:37.519 you went in with adjusted expectations i think 00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:39.420 you might see parts of yourself in erica because 00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:41.320 i think anyone who's been a repressed pervert 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:43.699 will see a bit of themselves in erica yeah um 00:58:43.699 --> 00:58:45.840 but you maybe have to look for it a little bit 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:48.380 more and there is that huge wall with the piano 00:58:48.380 --> 00:58:50.260 teacher where just as erica's putting up a wall 00:58:50.260 --> 00:58:52.730 with everyone in the movie the movie is putting 00:58:52.730 --> 00:58:54.949 up a wall between us and erica by making it really 00:58:54.949 --> 00:58:58.309 distant cold uncomfortable and tense yeah you're 00:58:58.309 --> 00:59:01.670 not going to want to see yourself in her when 00:59:01.670 --> 00:59:04.190 you don't like her and you feel like she doesn't 00:59:04.190 --> 00:59:06.510 want you to know her yeah you have to work a 00:59:06.510 --> 00:59:08.369 little bit to get to know her and therefore get 00:59:08.369 --> 00:59:11.090 to know yourself One thing that we both did find 00:59:11.090 --> 00:59:12.610 really interesting and talked about quite a lot 00:59:12.610 --> 00:59:15.449 after the movie finished was the ambiguity of 00:59:15.449 --> 00:59:18.150 the ending. So as we've talked about a few times, 00:59:18.230 --> 00:59:21.070 one of the penultimate scene of the movie is 00:59:21.070 --> 00:59:24.309 Walter forces his way into Erica's house, locks 00:59:24.309 --> 00:59:26.630 her mother in a room, beats her and rapes her, 00:59:26.690 --> 00:59:28.309 which is very much aligned with the stuff that 00:59:28.309 --> 00:59:30.789 was in her letter. And then after that, we see 00:59:30.789 --> 00:59:33.010 her the next day putting a knife in her purse, 00:59:33.190 --> 00:59:36.989 going to the concert that she is going to be 00:59:36.989 --> 00:59:39.940 performing in. where walter is is attending also 00:59:39.940 --> 00:59:43.280 um waiting around for him in the lobby seeing 00:59:43.280 --> 00:59:45.380 him laughing with his friends as if nothing's 00:59:45.380 --> 00:59:47.219 happened and then she pulls out the knife stabs 00:59:47.219 --> 00:59:49.599 herself in the shoulder and walks out and that's 00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:52.860 where the movie ends and both the rape scene 00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:56.420 and that scene are the things that the movie 00:59:56.420 --> 00:59:58.719 is most infamous for i think of being an ending 00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:01.480 that really makes you question what exactly what 01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:03.619 exactly you've just watched yeah and what it 01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:06.239 all means um and that was something we both found 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:08.820 really interesting to chat about afterwards i 01:00:08.820 --> 01:00:12.480 think i think so and there is there is a non 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.440 -zero chance i'm going to say something which 01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:16.139 is going to sound really not really problematic 01:00:16.139 --> 01:00:19.300 while we talk about this bit i think it's very 01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:21.320 hard to talk about this movie without talking 01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:23.179 about the fact that it very intentionally raises 01:00:23.179 --> 01:00:26.119 some problematic questions that's yeah yeah yeah 01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:29.260 because on the face of it walter broke into her 01:00:29.260 --> 01:00:32.280 home and raped her yeah that is literally what 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:34.659 happened on the screen but as you say that is 01:00:34.659 --> 01:00:37.460 a fairly detailed fantasy which erica shared 01:00:37.460 --> 01:00:43.099 with him so there's an element of so he's doing 01:00:43.099 --> 01:00:46.800 what she asked him to do and either she didn't 01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:48.920 like it or she liked it and i think there's an 01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:51.460 element of that ambiguity for me as well it's 01:00:51.460 --> 01:00:54.780 not a hundred percent clear how erica feels about 01:00:54.780 --> 01:00:58.440 it after the fact Yeah, the only thing I think 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.880 that is really clear in that final scene when 01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:04.619 she stabs herself is she is feeling some emotional 01:01:04.619 --> 01:01:07.639 devastation. Yeah. But the question is, is she 01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:10.199 devastated because she's been raped? And it's 01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:12.420 the very standard normal response to being raped. 01:01:12.460 --> 01:01:15.179 She is traumatized and shaken up and upset and 01:01:15.179 --> 01:01:18.179 hurt and all of those things. Yeah. is she devastated 01:01:18.179 --> 01:01:20.659 because she got everything that she'd asked for 01:01:20.659 --> 01:01:22.699 and she still feels like she's not connected 01:01:22.699 --> 01:01:24.460 like she's not feeling those things that she 01:01:24.460 --> 01:01:26.679 wants to feel like it's still not enough yeah 01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:29.639 or is she feeling devastated because walter is 01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:31.179 laughing and joking with his friends like nothing 01:01:31.179 --> 01:01:33.840 happened and he's not come running to her he's 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:35.800 not said you have awoken this side of me i know 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:37.860 who i am now i know what i want i can do all 01:01:37.860 --> 01:01:40.440 of this for you and i love it yeah that she has 01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:42.900 brought someone into her world and been rejected 01:01:42.900 --> 01:01:46.610 and left alone again yeah It could be any of 01:01:46.610 --> 01:01:49.889 those three things. And I think the sort of most 01:01:49.889 --> 01:01:52.849 common interpretation of it is she has lost control 01:01:52.849 --> 01:01:54.710 of the situation. This was good as a fantasy, 01:01:54.750 --> 01:01:56.690 but not as a reality. And now she's traumatized 01:01:56.690 --> 01:01:58.710 and she's a rape victim. And I think whichever 01:01:58.710 --> 01:02:00.369 of those interpretations you get, she's still 01:02:00.369 --> 01:02:02.550 a rape victim because they haven't actually negotiated 01:02:02.550 --> 01:02:05.349 that. They haven't done any kind of safety planning. 01:02:05.449 --> 01:02:07.750 Even if it was exactly what she wanted, it's 01:02:07.750 --> 01:02:10.050 still not being done in a way that could be called 01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:14.000 consensual. whether she is responding to it as 01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.139 a rape victim or whether she is responding to 01:02:16.139 --> 01:02:18.940 it as a sexually repressed lonely traumatized 01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:22.199 woman who is still feeling unseen and unloved 01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:25.619 that's where the ambiguity is for me and that's 01:02:25.619 --> 01:02:27.900 what i really like about it yeah and that's a 01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:29.760 really uncomfortable set of questions to be kind 01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:32.320 of left with yeah you kind of sit staring at 01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:34.920 the screen or what just happened here because 01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:38.320 you know in a really messed up kind of way she 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:41.230 was literally asking for it Yeah. I think that's 01:02:41.230 --> 01:02:43.050 the really uncomfortable kind of question that 01:02:43.050 --> 01:02:46.429 you're left with, is she wrote down that this 01:02:46.429 --> 01:02:49.090 is what she wanted? Yeah. And like you say, either 01:02:49.090 --> 01:02:50.789 it wasn't what she wanted and she regretted it, 01:02:50.849 --> 01:02:53.369 it wasn't enough, or it didn't lead to the outcome 01:02:53.369 --> 01:02:56.409 that she wanted. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really difficult 01:02:56.409 --> 01:02:59.889 thing to get your head around. But it got me 01:02:59.889 --> 01:03:03.449 thinking about the way that we talk about consent, 01:03:03.550 --> 01:03:06.389 and in particular consent violations in the kink 01:03:06.389 --> 01:03:08.760 scene. So if you... Pick the version of that 01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:11.260 film where she described a fantasy to Walter. 01:03:11.739 --> 01:03:14.659 Walter delivered on that fantasy and she regretted 01:03:14.659 --> 01:03:16.940 it. There is a version, I suppose, where that 01:03:16.940 --> 01:03:18.699 would be described as a violation of consent. 01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:22.260 Yeah. In the kink community, in the BDSM community, 01:03:22.460 --> 01:03:25.980 it went too far. Walter went too far. He punched 01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:28.699 her in the face. kicked her in the stomach all 01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:30.559 of that kind of stuff so if you take that out 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:32.579 of the it being a movie and you bring it into 01:03:32.579 --> 01:03:35.840 a more realistic situation of you agree to do 01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:37.699 something you do something something goes wrong 01:03:37.699 --> 01:03:39.159 or it doesn't feel the way that you wanted it 01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:43.219 to feel that is described as a violation of consent 01:03:43.219 --> 01:03:46.039 quite legitimately yeah described as a violation 01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:48.219 of consent and then we talk about repair and 01:03:48.219 --> 01:03:51.059 restoration and how you how you rebuild from 01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:53.179 that but what actually happened in that moment 01:03:53.179 --> 01:03:56.039 was an assault yeah and we don't talk about that 01:03:56.489 --> 01:03:59.550 In that way, we talk about it as violating consent. 01:03:59.670 --> 01:04:02.409 We kind of soften that language around it. And 01:04:02.409 --> 01:04:05.250 I just think watching that kind of raised a load 01:04:05.250 --> 01:04:07.230 of really interesting questions for me about 01:04:07.230 --> 01:04:10.090 kind of how in the kink community, somehow we 01:04:10.090 --> 01:04:12.769 are able to draw a line between violation of 01:04:12.769 --> 01:04:16.650 consent and assault. Yeah, the language, even 01:04:16.650 --> 01:04:18.329 though the word violation is a really strong 01:04:18.329 --> 01:04:20.809 word, the way that consent violation is used. 01:04:21.610 --> 01:04:24.610 often does feel a little bit euphemistic i think 01:04:24.610 --> 01:04:26.489 especially because it can be applied to a very 01:04:26.489 --> 01:04:29.190 very broad range of things yeah and none of the 01:04:29.190 --> 01:04:31.889 things it's applied to are okay but you know 01:04:31.889 --> 01:04:34.630 i've seen people describe um someone sort of 01:04:34.630 --> 01:04:36.829 oversharing some really personal details with 01:04:36.829 --> 01:04:38.869 them inappropriately and making them feel uncomfortable 01:04:38.869 --> 01:04:41.949 as a consent violation or touching them on the 01:04:41.949 --> 01:04:44.170 arm to get their attention like absolutely if 01:04:44.170 --> 01:04:45.510 you've said i don't want to be touched and someone 01:04:45.510 --> 01:04:47.789 touches you they have violated your consent It's 01:04:47.789 --> 01:04:49.670 absolutely fine to say that. But then when that 01:04:49.670 --> 01:04:51.969 is the only term that is used and it is also 01:04:51.969 --> 01:04:54.170 being used to describe... cases where people 01:04:54.170 --> 01:04:55.909 have not consented to being hit and end up being 01:04:55.909 --> 01:04:57.510 punched repeatedly until they're bruised and 01:04:57.510 --> 01:04:59.690 bloody or cases where someone has been raped 01:04:59.690 --> 01:05:01.889 or has had their genitals groped and things like 01:05:01.889 --> 01:05:04.309 that it's like actually for those we probably 01:05:04.309 --> 01:05:06.489 do need to be saying sexual assault we need to 01:05:06.489 --> 01:05:08.849 be saying assault we need to be saying rape yeah 01:05:08.849 --> 01:05:11.289 um because that's what's happening in those moments 01:05:11.289 --> 01:05:14.690 and when you flatten it all to say anything that's 01:05:14.690 --> 01:05:16.489 crossed any boundary of yours is all in the same 01:05:16.489 --> 01:05:19.570 box yes all of those things are wrong But some 01:05:19.570 --> 01:05:21.530 of those things are much more likely to cause 01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:25.090 lasting trauma. And I think, yeah, like even 01:05:25.090 --> 01:05:27.230 with the ambiguity of the ending, in fact, probably 01:05:27.230 --> 01:05:29.809 because of the ambiguity of the ending, we don't 01:05:29.809 --> 01:05:32.269 know exactly what Erica is thinking about what's 01:05:32.269 --> 01:05:34.690 happened and whether she does put it in the rape 01:05:34.690 --> 01:05:37.170 box or whether she puts it in a boundaries cost 01:05:37.170 --> 01:05:39.369 box. But we see it and we know that it's rape. 01:05:39.900 --> 01:05:42.019 yeah regardless of which of those three interpretations 01:05:42.019 --> 01:05:45.400 that you take walter has a responsibility to 01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:47.840 approach that responsibly it's the first time 01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:50.159 for either of them doing that kind of thing he 01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:52.500 is angry with her genuinely angry with her in 01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:53.880 the moment because he feels like he's been led 01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:55.699 on and teased and messed around and controlled 01:05:55.699 --> 01:05:58.480 um so that's not a safe headspace for him to 01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:00.760 be doing any kind of consensual kink in they 01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:02.760 don't have any kind of safe word and i know we 01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:04.820 don't either but we took a long time to get there 01:06:04.820 --> 01:06:07.039 yeah that is a deliberate choice yeah and we 01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:08.940 have other ways of communicating and ways that 01:06:08.940 --> 01:06:10.800 i can tell you in scene if i think things are 01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:13.380 becoming unsafe or going too far they have no 01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:15.360 kind of checking in even sort of checking in 01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:17.400 in code the way that that we can sometimes do 01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:19.159 during that kind of play you know things like 01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:20.559 if you keep struggling i'm going to give you 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:22.599 another slap in the face if i struggle i'm asking 01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:24.940 for another slap in the face yeah there's nothing 01:06:24.940 --> 01:06:27.760 negotiated to make that safe so what he did is 01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:29.940 completely inexcusable and is rape regardless 01:06:29.940 --> 01:06:33.619 of how she responded to it yeah um And I think 01:06:33.619 --> 01:06:36.079 by showing that and showing it really uncomfortable, 01:06:36.440 --> 01:06:39.059 really tense, showing her sort of dissociated 01:06:39.059 --> 01:06:42.579 through it, it makes you, hopefully, if you're 01:06:42.579 --> 01:06:44.760 watching it with any kind of decent values, makes 01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:47.619 you think, actually, if this had been described 01:06:47.619 --> 01:06:49.739 to me by someone in the kink scene and they said, 01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:51.780 yeah, I'd sent this person a long list of all 01:06:51.780 --> 01:06:54.159 my rape fantasies and then they came around and 01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:57.300 did it and I feel like I've been violated, how 01:06:57.300 --> 01:07:00.000 many of us would... start to make excuses and 01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:01.920 say well was it a misunderstanding were you not 01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:04.199 clear enough yeah did you not bother to use your 01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:06.300 safe word like that sort of victim blaming stuff 01:07:06.300 --> 01:07:08.519 that comes out yeah when the movie shows it to 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:11.159 you so brutally and uncomfortably you can't make 01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:13.139 any excuse for it because regardless of what 01:07:13.139 --> 01:07:15.519 she said or did what he did was still completely 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.300 out of line yeah yeah yeah and it's really interesting 01:07:19.300 --> 01:07:21.280 that movie can make you feel all that while also 01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.510 raising the question of did she ask for that 01:07:24.510 --> 01:07:27.250 yeah yeah it's such a contradiction it's a really 01:07:27.250 --> 01:07:29.289 contradictory headspace to leave you in yeah 01:07:29.289 --> 01:07:31.090 um and i think you're right i think you're spot 01:07:31.090 --> 01:07:32.969 on when you say we kind of flatten everything 01:07:32.969 --> 01:07:36.369 down to i had my consent violated i'm not saying 01:07:36.369 --> 01:07:39.110 that that is untrue in any situation where a 01:07:39.110 --> 01:07:42.090 person has said that but me hitting you in slightly 01:07:42.090 --> 01:07:45.409 the wrong place is my head different to touching 01:07:45.409 --> 01:07:47.150 your genitals or fucking you when you didn't 01:07:47.150 --> 01:07:49.389 want to be fucked as part of a scene yeah you 01:07:49.389 --> 01:07:51.880 know Definitely. Yeah. Like one can be a misunderstanding 01:07:51.880 --> 01:07:53.940 or a mistake and it's still serious and still 01:07:53.940 --> 01:07:55.920 needs to be addressed. Yeah. But it tells you 01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:57.900 less about the value system of the person who's 01:07:57.900 --> 01:07:59.940 done it. Yeah. And it's a frustration of mine 01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:02.099 quite often where there are certain people that 01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:05.559 we know or know of who are serial rapists. Yeah. 01:08:06.000 --> 01:08:08.380 And what they sometimes get referred to as as 01:08:08.380 --> 01:08:10.760 consent violators or this person has violated 01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.000 people's consent or cross multiple people's boundaries. 01:08:13.059 --> 01:08:16.300 And it's like that is true. But why aren't you 01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:17.899 saying that they've raped? Yeah. Why aren't we 01:08:17.899 --> 01:08:20.859 using the words? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or say allegedly 01:08:20.859 --> 01:08:23.760 if you must, you know, but that's what they are 01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:25.600 accused of doing. That is what the concern is. 01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:27.460 That is what the safety risk is, is that they 01:08:27.460 --> 01:08:30.520 are accused of having raped several people. Yeah. 01:08:30.579 --> 01:08:33.279 You need to acknowledge that because anything 01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:36.680 that can be used in a euphemistic way and softens 01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:39.140 that is actually putting people more at risk. 01:08:39.340 --> 01:08:42.449 Yeah, 100 % agree. One of the things that I found 01:08:42.449 --> 01:08:45.369 really interesting about this movie is about 01:08:45.369 --> 01:08:47.430 the way that it explores the difference between 01:08:47.430 --> 01:08:50.949 fantasy and reality. Because whatever sort of 01:08:50.949 --> 01:08:53.550 interpretation of the ending you take, she clearly 01:08:53.550 --> 01:08:55.550 is not happy about what's happened. Like, that 01:08:55.550 --> 01:08:57.470 is one thing we can very safely say. Like, it 01:08:57.470 --> 01:09:00.890 has shaken her to her core. Yeah. But, you know, 01:09:00.890 --> 01:09:03.050 an hour earlier in the movie, we were seeing 01:09:03.050 --> 01:09:07.050 her explaining how much she wants. Yeah. Very 01:09:07.050 --> 01:09:10.239 much, you know, a scene along those lines. and 01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:12.399 i think there's something there about particularly 01:09:12.399 --> 01:09:15.439 when you are quite inexperienced and quite repressed 01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:17.460 and your only way to explore your sexuality is 01:09:17.460 --> 01:09:20.899 through play by yourself and a fantasy life your 01:09:20.899 --> 01:09:23.640 fantasies can become more and more extreme over 01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:26.100 time as you As you sort of look for things that 01:09:26.100 --> 01:09:27.520 are going to make you feel enough. And just by 01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.319 their nature, fantasies tend to be more extreme 01:09:29.319 --> 01:09:31.579 than real life anyway. Because you can't actually 01:09:31.579 --> 01:09:34.760 feel it. You can't actually smell it, taste it, 01:09:34.779 --> 01:09:36.260 hear it. You know, you can't experience it with 01:09:36.260 --> 01:09:38.800 any of your real senses. So you do tend to heighten 01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:40.869 things in a fantasy so that you... get a kick 01:09:40.869 --> 01:09:43.609 out of it yeah the things i enjoy in play are 01:09:43.609 --> 01:09:45.329 what a lot of people would consider extreme but 01:09:45.329 --> 01:09:47.970 the things i enjoy in fantasy are much more extreme 01:09:47.970 --> 01:09:50.170 than that like torture murder having all my teeth 01:09:50.170 --> 01:09:52.050 pulled out stuff that i know i wouldn't actually 01:09:52.050 --> 01:09:54.029 want in real life yeah and there was something 01:09:54.029 --> 01:09:57.170 interesting for me about because she is so disconnected 01:09:57.170 --> 01:09:59.609 from people that maybe there's a part of her 01:09:59.609 --> 01:10:01.350 that's lost the awareness that her fantasies 01:10:01.350 --> 01:10:05.189 won't mesh well into reality in that way yeah 01:10:05.189 --> 01:10:07.939 yeah she spent so much time in her own head that 01:10:07.939 --> 01:10:10.460 she's a lot further along in her development, 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:13.420 I suppose, for want of a better word, than she 01:10:13.420 --> 01:10:15.579 really, really is. And kind of faced with the 01:10:15.579 --> 01:10:18.500 reality of what's in her head, it has that devastating 01:10:18.500 --> 01:10:21.819 impact. She's very much a hit -me -with -your 01:10:21.819 --> 01:10:24.920 -car kind of person, isn't she? Very, very detailed, 01:10:25.079 --> 01:10:27.819 very extreme version of sadism and masochism 01:10:27.819 --> 01:10:30.739 that she fantasises about and just seems to think 01:10:30.739 --> 01:10:32.880 that you can just do that. Yeah. That's where 01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:35.680 I'll start. Yeah. Makes me think of the people 01:10:35.680 --> 01:10:37.359 that you see signing up on FetLife and their 01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:39.760 first post on a group or whatever is, hi, I'm 01:10:39.760 --> 01:10:41.439 a no -limits submissive looking for a mistress. 01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:43.979 Yeah. Like, you haven't been here long enough 01:10:43.979 --> 01:10:45.560 to know that you're no -limits. I don't think 01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:47.239 you understand quite what that includes yet. 01:10:47.500 --> 01:10:49.260 Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other discourse 01:10:49.260 --> 01:10:53.859 in itself, isn't it? The criticism of people 01:10:53.859 --> 01:10:57.079 who describe themselves as no -limits. Even leaving 01:10:57.079 --> 01:11:00.119 aside the day one FetLife members who write their 01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:03.810 most unhinged. fantasies out and say i want someone 01:11:03.810 --> 01:11:08.770 to do this to me um like even in response to 01:11:08.770 --> 01:11:12.590 people who have gone through that process don't 01:11:12.590 --> 01:11:14.890 have safe words haven't set limits for their 01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:17.949 partner or partners like the criticism that those 01:11:17.949 --> 01:11:21.430 people face sometimes is is just beyond wild 01:11:21.430 --> 01:11:24.149 to me because it always goes to the extreme and 01:11:24.149 --> 01:11:27.399 i've seen people say it of Or if anybody contacts 01:11:27.399 --> 01:11:29.380 me and tells me that there are no limits submissive, 01:11:29.380 --> 01:11:31.020 I'm going to reply and say, OK, I'm going to 01:11:31.020 --> 01:11:33.500 chop your arms off then. And it's like those 01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:36.880 two things are not the same. Yeah. I mean, because 01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:38.680 would you actually chop their arms off? Do you 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:40.779 want to chop their arms off? Yeah. Probably not. 01:11:41.100 --> 01:11:43.250 Yeah. Yeah. You know. I think a lot of the criticism, 01:11:43.270 --> 01:11:45.250 it comes from conflating two entirely different 01:11:45.250 --> 01:11:47.470 groups of people. There's the day one on FetLife, 01:11:47.649 --> 01:11:50.250 day one to kink, don't actually know any of what's 01:11:50.250 --> 01:11:52.029 out there. And when they say I'm no limits, what 01:11:52.029 --> 01:11:54.550 they mean is all of my fantasies feel good. And 01:11:54.550 --> 01:11:57.029 every kink that I know that people actually do 01:11:57.029 --> 01:11:59.890 sounds good. So that it's ignorance and naivety. 01:12:00.010 --> 01:12:02.449 And the second group of people who describe themselves 01:12:02.449 --> 01:12:05.449 as no limits are people who are usually very, 01:12:05.529 --> 01:12:08.369 very experienced. in long -term dynamics, who 01:12:08.369 --> 01:12:10.810 have reached that point after months or usually 01:12:10.810 --> 01:12:13.770 years of hard work. Yeah. And when they say there 01:12:13.770 --> 01:12:16.909 are no limits, what they mean is the dominant 01:12:16.909 --> 01:12:18.649 in this relationship, the master, the mistress, 01:12:18.909 --> 01:12:21.189 whoever the person in control in this relationship 01:12:21.189 --> 01:12:23.470 is, is the one who decides when I've had enough. 01:12:23.649 --> 01:12:26.109 Yeah. You don't give that level of control over 01:12:26.109 --> 01:12:29.149 your life to someone who has any intention of 01:12:29.149 --> 01:12:31.069 running you over with their car, chopping off 01:12:31.069 --> 01:12:33.750 all your arms and legs. Yeah. Killing you. Yeah. 01:12:33.930 --> 01:12:36.520 Running up. a million pounds of debt in your 01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:39.279 name yeah like part of the trust to be no limits 01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:41.960 with someone is is knowing the dominant partner 01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:44.779 and knowing what their limits are and how far 01:12:44.779 --> 01:12:46.640 they would take it and trusting them to make 01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.100 those decisions for you um we don't have a no 01:12:49.100 --> 01:12:51.600 limits dynamic but i have previously had a no 01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:54.500 limits dynamic and it's it comes with its own 01:12:54.500 --> 01:12:56.960 risks for sure like there's a huge element of 01:12:56.960 --> 01:12:59.920 psychological risk but i have not ever had a 01:12:59.920 --> 01:13:01.800 relationship with someone who i felt like if 01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:03.659 i said you're allowed to chop my arms off would 01:13:03.659 --> 01:13:06.659 have done it Yeah. And if I was in a relationship 01:13:06.659 --> 01:13:08.560 with someone who would do that, I don't think 01:13:08.560 --> 01:13:10.399 me setting chopping my arms off as a hard limit 01:13:10.399 --> 01:13:13.739 would necessarily keep me safe. No, that's it. 01:13:13.779 --> 01:13:15.479 If you have to set that as a hard limit with 01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:17.460 a specific person, then there are some thoughts 01:13:17.460 --> 01:13:19.720 to be had about that person. Yeah. You know, 01:13:19.779 --> 01:13:22.300 it's agonisingly frustrating when I see that 01:13:22.300 --> 01:13:25.880 snarky kind of response to that. Yeah. I think 01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:27.699 what does have value is when the newbies turn 01:13:27.699 --> 01:13:29.699 up saying there are no limits, is making them 01:13:29.699 --> 01:13:31.319 aware of a selection of some of the things that 01:13:31.319 --> 01:13:33.979 people do actually quite commonly do. And being 01:13:33.979 --> 01:13:35.699 like, if you're going to describe yourself as 01:13:35.699 --> 01:13:38.020 no limits, you may find completely reasonable 01:13:38.020 --> 01:13:39.800 ethical sadists who actually want to do some 01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:41.760 of this stuff to you. Are you sure that's the 01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:43.659 message you want to be putting out there? And 01:13:43.659 --> 01:13:47.000 so acknowledging things like, you know, not amputation 01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:48.560 of limbs as far as I know, but there are people 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:51.180 who do digit amputations. There are people who 01:13:51.180 --> 01:13:54.319 do sort of large sized needle and skewer play 01:13:54.319 --> 01:13:57.180 where they will be putting skewers through your 01:13:57.180 --> 01:13:59.479 breasts, for example. There are people like us 01:13:59.479 --> 01:14:02.670 who like to play with burns and branding. looking 01:14:02.670 --> 01:14:05.550 at some of that and going are you sure that that's 01:14:05.550 --> 01:14:07.689 on your yes list because if not maybe don't describe 01:14:07.689 --> 01:14:09.430 yourself as no limits because that isn't one 01:14:09.430 --> 01:14:11.229 psychopath living in the woods somewhere that 01:14:11.229 --> 01:14:12.649 are people that you might meet at your local 01:14:12.649 --> 01:14:15.909 munch yeah like from the other side of that maybe 01:14:15.909 --> 01:14:17.750 the sensible thing to do is to describe yourself 01:14:17.750 --> 01:14:19.590 as someone who hasn't discovered their limits 01:14:19.590 --> 01:14:22.449 absolutely yeah rather than saying no limits 01:14:22.449 --> 01:14:25.239 maybe that's a more sensible way of describing 01:14:25.239 --> 01:14:28.060 it, but we're not always our best self when we've 01:14:28.060 --> 01:14:30.319 discovered a fun new thing and we're really excited 01:14:30.319 --> 01:14:33.000 to live out all of our fantasies as we discovered 01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:35.579 in this movie. Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing 01:14:35.579 --> 01:14:37.159 we can definitely say is that Erica probably 01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:41.079 found some of her limits in this movie and learned 01:14:41.079 --> 01:14:43.060 in some of the most horrific ways and unnecessary 01:14:43.060 --> 01:14:46.180 ways that could have been avoided with an ethical 01:14:46.180 --> 01:14:48.979 partner and a communicated, negotiated relationship. 01:14:49.460 --> 01:14:52.420 Yes. Because if Walter had been an experienced 01:14:52.420 --> 01:14:54.859 and ethical dominant and had been presented with 01:14:54.859 --> 01:14:57.420 that letter, he might have suggested some slightly 01:14:57.420 --> 01:15:00.239 more lighthearted and playful CNC as an entry 01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:02.039 point. As an entry point, yes. Rather than a 01:15:02.039 --> 01:15:05.020 brutally violent home invasion. Yeah. And would 01:15:05.020 --> 01:15:06.819 have respected when she didn't want to have sex 01:15:06.819 --> 01:15:09.060 rather than saying, you can't get me worked up 01:15:09.060 --> 01:15:13.560 like this. Yeah. He's a little shit. And trapping 01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:15.359 the mother in another room while it all happens. 01:15:15.420 --> 01:15:16.939 The mother should not have been involved in any 01:15:16.939 --> 01:15:19.659 of that. That's not how we do CNC or, in fact, 01:15:19.659 --> 01:15:23.979 anything. No. We don't involve our mothers in 01:15:23.979 --> 01:15:26.279 anything. I mean, I don't even want my mother 01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:33.859 in the house. Another thing that I think was 01:15:33.859 --> 01:15:36.319 quite interesting and ambiguous is the way that 01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:38.500 the power and control shifts a lot between Erica 01:15:38.500 --> 01:15:40.979 and Walter. As we talked about briefly before 01:15:40.979 --> 01:15:42.840 when we were comparing it with Baby Girl, where 01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:45.180 it's not a straightforward dominant sadist sits 01:15:45.180 --> 01:15:47.439 in one box, submissive masochist sits in the 01:15:47.439 --> 01:15:49.739 other, and they have no blurring of the lines. 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:52.310 It was definitely a more interesting... way of 01:15:52.310 --> 01:15:55.170 exploring power um but one of the things that 01:15:55.170 --> 01:15:59.289 i think it left ambiguous was is she a dominant 01:15:59.289 --> 01:16:02.090 character with a masochistic sexuality you know 01:16:02.090 --> 01:16:04.149 she always tries to take control in her relationship 01:16:04.149 --> 01:16:06.310 with walter she wants to make all the decision 01:16:06.310 --> 01:16:09.770 of what happens um but her desires are for him 01:16:09.770 --> 01:16:11.729 to be you know physically violent towards her 01:16:11.729 --> 01:16:14.550 or is it actually that she has a submissive side 01:16:14.550 --> 01:16:16.729 to her and her walls are up too high to let that 01:16:16.729 --> 01:16:18.829 side out yet so she's presenting her masochism 01:16:18.829 --> 01:16:21.500 first I felt like that was quite ambiguous as 01:16:21.500 --> 01:16:23.060 well because she has moments of saying you can 01:16:23.060 --> 01:16:25.159 do anything you want to me and then flips back 01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:27.779 of going, but it's all going to be my way. Yeah. 01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:34.819 Classic topping from the bottom. Another phrase 01:16:34.819 --> 01:16:37.260 which I think should be banned. Absolutely. And 01:16:37.260 --> 01:16:39.460 frustrates me incredibly when people get into 01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:41.479 a discourse about it. You're just talking bullshit. 01:16:41.960 --> 01:16:45.500 But anyway, there is a version of that film where 01:16:45.500 --> 01:16:47.739 it kind of does fall into the baby girl trope 01:16:47.739 --> 01:16:50.449 a little bit of. Someone who is very in control 01:16:50.449 --> 01:16:53.069 of her life is at the top of her game professionally. 01:16:53.329 --> 01:16:55.770 She's clearly respected as a musician and as 01:16:55.770 --> 01:16:57.670 a piano teacher, but actually what she wants 01:16:57.670 --> 01:17:00.069 is to let all of that go and have somebody else 01:17:00.069 --> 01:17:03.930 be in charge and not have to think too much. 01:17:04.130 --> 01:17:06.390 But she doesn't seem to be able to let go of 01:17:06.390 --> 01:17:09.510 her need to control her environment, which I 01:17:09.510 --> 01:17:11.390 guess is the tension with Walter, isn't it? He 01:17:11.390 --> 01:17:13.369 wants someone who is just going to roll over 01:17:13.369 --> 01:17:16.069 and... do as he says even if that is fairly vanilla 01:17:16.069 --> 01:17:20.449 sex yeah yeah it's it's such an interesting conflict 01:17:20.449 --> 01:17:23.250 where she is both too submissive and too dominant 01:17:23.250 --> 01:17:26.189 for him yeah because he doesn't want her to be 01:17:26.189 --> 01:17:28.550 setting any boundaries taking the lead taking 01:17:28.550 --> 01:17:32.069 control telling him what what's what um but he 01:17:32.069 --> 01:17:34.510 also doesn't want to dominate her in the way 01:17:34.510 --> 01:17:36.250 that she's asking for he doesn't want to do all 01:17:36.250 --> 01:17:40.960 of that weird shit yeah um yeah he he It says 01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:43.319 a lot about the sort of impossible sexual standard 01:17:43.319 --> 01:17:46.119 for women, I think, where you have to be exactly 01:17:46.119 --> 01:17:48.100 the sexual object that a man wants you to be. 01:17:48.180 --> 01:17:50.500 And if you step outside that in any direction, 01:17:50.699 --> 01:17:53.779 it's seen as a moral failing. And Erica has plenty 01:17:53.779 --> 01:17:57.300 of moral failings. The things that make Walter 01:17:57.300 --> 01:18:00.920 the angriest with her are not it. She's a sexually 01:18:00.920 --> 01:18:03.760 complex woman figuring herself out. Yeah. Dominant 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:06.520 masochist. That's the... I guess it's not a paradox, 01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:08.720 is it? Because dominance and submission, as we 01:18:08.720 --> 01:18:11.159 have discussed. dominance and submission and 01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:13.920 sadism and masochism are different things yeah 01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:15.920 they're not which talk about that on the podcast 01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:17.720 is i think how we ended up picking the piano 01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:19.539 teacher as the next movie to watch because you 01:18:19.539 --> 01:18:22.060 said i struggle to get my head around a dominant 01:18:22.060 --> 01:18:24.020 masochist and i was like i i know exactly the 01:18:24.020 --> 01:18:27.319 one to show you yeah yeah yeah that's fair yeah 01:18:27.319 --> 01:18:31.159 that's growth you see growth and development 01:18:31.159 --> 01:18:33.380 and learning yep there we go That's what we're 01:18:33.380 --> 01:18:35.020 all about. That's why we're award winning. That's 01:18:35.020 --> 01:18:37.079 why we win awards. So considering that this was 01:18:37.079 --> 01:18:38.979 an episode that I struggled to figure out how 01:18:38.979 --> 01:18:41.119 to outline because I have so many thoughts about 01:18:41.119 --> 01:18:42.840 The Piano Teacher, I feel like I could talk about 01:18:42.840 --> 01:18:44.520 it all day, but I never know what direction to 01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:46.520 start in. And you felt like you didn't have a 01:18:46.520 --> 01:18:48.119 lot to say about because you hadn't been the 01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:50.340 biggest fan of the movie. I think we've ended 01:18:50.340 --> 01:18:52.680 up with quite a lot to say between us. Yeah, 01:18:52.760 --> 01:18:55.619 I think so. Yeah, let's stick a microphone in 01:18:55.619 --> 01:18:57.140 front of us and we'll waffle about anything. 01:18:57.579 --> 01:19:00.119 Yeah, it's usually when I outline. For me, I 01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:02.380 think... Why did I pick this topic for an episode? 01:19:02.560 --> 01:19:04.500 I have no idea what I want to say about it. I 01:19:04.500 --> 01:19:06.659 have zero thoughts. I don't know what makes me 01:19:06.659 --> 01:19:08.600 want to say about it. This is going to be terrible. 01:19:08.779 --> 01:19:10.539 And I sit down and I get my little outline document 01:19:10.539 --> 01:19:12.840 up and I put the intro in because I still need 01:19:12.840 --> 01:19:15.159 a script for the intro, even after like 50 episodes, 01:19:15.220 --> 01:19:18.279 I think we're at now, very close to it. And then 01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:20.600 I put our initials alternating down the side 01:19:20.600 --> 01:19:22.579 of the page to know who's going to take the rough 01:19:22.579 --> 01:19:25.640 lead on each section. And I go, I've got no fucking 01:19:25.640 --> 01:19:27.359 ideas, but I'll put some bullet points in and 01:19:27.359 --> 01:19:28.939 I put the introduction and I put the wrap up 01:19:28.939 --> 01:19:31.060 in and then suddenly the rest of it is full. 01:19:31.220 --> 01:19:32.840 And it's a whole page. And I'm like, how the 01:19:32.840 --> 01:19:35.520 fuck? How did that happen? Yeah. And then I come 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:36.899 along and read it and go, yep, that makes sense. 01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:39.439 Yep. Or sometimes you don't read it and then 01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:40.880 we start recording and you look at it and go, 01:19:40.979 --> 01:19:43.539 why am I starting? Why have you got me talking 01:19:43.539 --> 01:19:45.359 about this? I have no thoughts on that. What 01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:47.779 have you done? Why does it say wrap up however 01:19:47.779 --> 01:19:53.380 you like? Yeah. Yes. But we muddle through. We 01:19:53.380 --> 01:19:56.340 do. there you go that's why we win awards that's 01:19:56.340 --> 01:19:58.439 why we win awards muddling through excellent 01:19:58.439 --> 01:20:08.859 bye thanks for listening to this week's episode 01:20:08.859 --> 01:20:11.140 of don't scare the newbies you can support us 01:20:11.140 --> 01:20:13.300 on patreon for a whole extra episode every month 01:20:13.300 --> 01:20:15.739 and head to carizal .com for my blog and links 01:20:15.739 --> 01:20:18.199 to everywhere else you can follow me see you 01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:18.720 next time