Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, an award
-winning podcast where we talk kink, raw and
unfiltered. I'm Carizel, an award -winning lifestyle
submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who likes their
kink heavy, intense, award -winning and scary.
And I'm S, Carizel's award -winning dominant
who knows how to deliver all of the above in
an award -winning way. And today we're going
to be talking about an award -winning movie.
We're going to be talking about The Piano Teacher.
You stole my joke. So the obnoxious introduction
is not a permanent feature. No. Oh, is it not?
No, because I think that would really get annoying
really fast. I don't care. I won an award. That's
so fair. But we wanted to chat just briefly about
the award that we won, because this is the first
episode we've recorded since it happened. We
won... Best Media at the 2026 Alternative Awards.
Yes, we did. And it was so much fun. Yes, that
was an amazing night. That was, for me, a surprise.
Yeah. I think you had got it in your head that
we were going to win. Up until the day, I really
did. I was confident. I felt like we have a really
engaged... sort of base of listeners i think
we get a lot of like comments and people sending
us messages and things like that which is always
a good sign for any kind of publicly voted award
and i thought we had a really good chance and
then on the day the imposter syndrome got in
my head and i was like no we've been running
this less than a year that would be silly it's
not gonna happen i didn't like it's not like
my confidence was knocked but i just went in
with more realistic expectations i think of yeah
it's probably not gonna happen we're just gonna
have a good night anyway yeah yeah and i don't
know about you but when i got to the venue for
it and we kind of found our table that it kind
of like hit me a little bit it was like no we're
we're surrounded by like proper proper people
yeah who do this who do this for a job yeah you
know we're just two sex nerds with a microphone
yeah um that's probably not gonna be what happens
but then it did and it did yeah and i didn't
write a speech partly because they'd said it's
up to you whether you say anything or not and
until we got there i didn't know how many people
would be and i didn't want to be the obnoxious
one getting up there with loads to say but also
it felt like it would jinx it yeah so i didn't
and then as we started getting closer to it i
started thinking a little bit about what i might
want to say because we'd agreed i would go up
on stage and you wouldn't because you didn't
want to be photographed and also you didn't want
to stand up in front of that many people um and
i asked you if there was anything you wanted
to say and you gave me that line um we're just
two sex nerds with microphones. So I was like,
cool, I'll open with that and then I'll say some
stuff. And I did. Yeah. And it was amazing. And
everybody seemed very nice about it. Yeah. The
people on our table were lovely. Yeah. Really
award winning table. Yeah. There were four awards
or something. There were four awards, including
us on our table. Yes. Yeah. Best Newcomer, the
Icon Award and I think Best Content Creator.
Icon and Best Content Creator were the same person.
Big Rob and Evil Mendez got Best Newcomer. Yeah.
So, yeah, it felt like a lucky table because
all of those awards were announced before ours
and it was coming around towards us. It was like,
oh, so maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. We were really.
late in the awards weren't we we were like practically
the last one yeah it was like within the last
three awards announced or something yeah oh we
had a great time yeah very very happy the award
is still sitting on our coffee table we need
to find a proper home for a proper home for it
yeah and obviously thank you to everybody who
voted yes thank you so much really appreciate
it very much appreciate and we will probably
have to come to you asking begging for votes
again before too long because there are more
awards coming up yes and if they do what they
did this year we'll be nominated in another award
next year Yes. Alternative awards, they don't
allow you to enter the same category two years
in a row to give other people a chance, which
I think is really cool. But to make up for that,
they put everyone who won an award this year
into a best of category next year. So we saw
the best of 2025 get announced and then next
year we'll be nominated for best of 2026. It's
going to be a tough category that. I don't have
high hopes there. But if anyone wants to vote
for us in that, that will also be very much appreciated.
Hurrah. I guess we should talk about a film.
Yes. Movie night. Yes, we decided to have another
kinky movie night. It's been a little while since
we did one. Yeah. Last one was Crash. Crash,
yes. I think. I had some thoughts about that.
Yeah. And I, as we are about to come on to as
we discuss what we thought about this movie,
I had the moment of realisation as we were watching
this week's movie, which was The Piano Teacher.
I was sitting there. And it was the second watch
of it for me. I'd seen it a few years ago by
myself. But I was watching it with you. And so
watching it through your eyes the way that you
do when you introduce a movie to someone. And
I was like, if they didn't like Crash, I don't
think they're going to like this. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So tell me, what did you think of it, Mix?
I think a little bit like Crash. It has. I wouldn't
say it's grown on me since we watched it. And
the more I thought about it. But I can see what
they were saying and I can see the intention
behind it. And there's a bunch of interesting
stuff going on in that movie. Kind of the themes
of it and the questions that it raises are all
really interesting and really good to think about.
But it was dull. And I think that's not even
about the actors in it or the plot. I just think
it's a little bit arty and a little bit pretentious.
And that immediately turns me off. Yeah, it's
a very sort of sparse movie, the way it's directed,
the way that it's filmed. It's very sort of cold
and quite clinical at times. Yeah. And I feel
like that adds to it for me. But I can also immediately
see how that would switch someone off. Yeah.
And it's very slow paced, particularly the first
sort of half to two thirds of the movie. Yeah.
Really kind of creeps along, which again, really
works for me. But I can see why it wouldn't be
for you. It's not a bad movie. It's not a bad
story. there's some good acting in it but i think
if you're going to be arty and a bit pretentious
you have to do it really well and see i fully
agree with that it's just where we differ is
i think the piano teacher did it exceptionally
well yeah i don't have a lot of patience with
a movie that feels like it's trying to be cleverer
than it is but i think the piano teacher is exactly
as clever as it thinks it is which is why i love
it yeah um and i really like what i've seen of
the director michael haneke i've only seen two
of his movies And I would like to see more, but
I feel like they're a kind of once a decade event
for me because I saw Funny Games when I was 19
and I had seen it precisely once. And I would
say it is possibly the movie that has had the
biggest impact on me. Like it's one that has
just stayed with me for getting on for 20 years
now. Where if you show me a single still frame
from that movie, I will instantly recognize it
and remember how I felt seeing it. It's got so
much to say about sort of voyeuristic sadism
and how we all have that. like dark urgeness
it just i i we're not going to turn this into
an episode about funny games but i very easily
could i have so many thoughts about that movie
even though it's been a long time since i saw
it but it's not one i have any desire to re -watch
because it was a brutal experience and the piano
teacher is one that i've now seen twice and would
watch again but it's so uncomfortable and so
immersive and really invites you into i think
both of the the characters headspace is so much
i think It's a movie that you're not necessarily
meant to entirely enjoy. Yeah. And I enjoyed
not enjoying it, but I'm the masochist in this
relationship. That's fair. But Funny Games is
a good comparison. Same director, obviously.
But for me, both of those films suffer from a
similar problem. From my perspective, I don't
think The Piano Teacher is clever enough to be
as arty and pretentious as it is. Yeah. And I
don't think Funny Games is clever enough to be
as voyeuristically violent as it is. Because
I think I've only seen Funny Games once, and
I put it in the same kind of broad category as
films like the Saw franchise and the Hills Have
Eyes franchise, which is just gratuitous torture
porn. And I know that Funny Games has a message
to it, but I don't think the message is powerful
enough, and I don't think it does it cleverly
enough for it not to just feel a little bit unnecessarily
gratuitous in the way that Saw and Hills Have
Eyes and films like that. do yeah i can definitely
see that funny games wouldn't hit its mark for
everybody yeah but i think it uses violence in
a way that for the people that it does land with
who maybe see it at the right time or in the
right headspace it really makes you question
everything you thought you knew about yourself
and your relationship with violence it is something
that is completely shaped the way that I sort
of self -critique how I'm engaging with violent
media, violent fantasy, everything. And I say
this as someone who very happily does engage
with violent media and violent fantasy. You know,
it's not like Funny Games has made me go, oh,
I should never, I should never do such a thing.
But it makes me think about it and be more self
-aware every single time that I engage with those
kind of things to question, am I doing that in
a way that is harmful to me or others? Am I,
am I actually... benefiting from other people's
misery and how can i make sure i don't do that
and it was such a huge shift for me as a teenager
as someone who just demolished all of the horror
all of the things like sore and hostile and things
like that completely uncritically it hasn't stopped
me enjoying those kind of things though it did
for a little while but it changed how i engage
with them and change how i view them um So I
can completely recognise it's not going to have
that effect on everybody. I don't think it even...
The person I was dating at the time, who was
a huge, huge movie nerd, absolutely loved any
kind of arty, sort of slightly ambiguous movie,
loved that kind of stuff. I think it hit me harder
than him, even though he was really locked in
on the themes. Because he was quite frustrated
with me afterwards that I didn't want to watch
loads of gory horror movies for a little bit.
But I don't think it would be fair to say it
doesn't... nail it i think it just can't ever
get that to quite land for everybody because
because you have to be in the right place to
be receptive to it i think maybe seeing that
as you are a new adult is maybe the perfect time
to see it like when you are sort of figuring
out who you are and who you want to be and what
values you're carrying into adulthood like that's
probably the time where funny games is going
to be the best best thing you've ever seen in
your life and maybe seeing it older or younger
than that wouldn't hit the same i don't know
yeah Yeah, that's fair. I will die on the hill
of defending Funny Games. I will allow you a
lot more hate of the piano teacher, but Funny
Games is my child. that's fair we should probably
talk about the piano teacher we should yes um
but also if you are up for having potentially
your entire value system upended and the worst
parts of yourself held up to you like a mirror
also check out funny games but yes let's talk
about the piano teacher um i if it wasn't obvious
from now absolutely love it it's another one
of those movies that i feel like will stay with
me forever even if i never watch it again um
so we're going to talk about are the things that
we got from it, the things that it made us think
about. And first, I thought we'd better start
off with hearing a little bit about what happens
in it for anyone who's not familiar or wants
a refresher. Do you want to tell us the story,
Mix? Yes, I will do my best, courtesy of Wikipedia,
as a way of reminding me what the plot of the
movie was. Yeah, we've taken a few days to record
this time, where we usually try to record straight
after watching. So Mix is also needing the refresher.
Yes. So The Piano Teacher is about a woman called...
Erica, who is, funnily enough, a piano teacher,
played by Isabel Huppert. She's a bigwig in some
fancy Vienna conservatory. And in her day -to
-day life, very focused on her music, very kind
of aloof and a little bit cold in her day -to
-day life. But under the surface, she's dealing
with a lot of sexual repression. Yeah. She clearly
has fantasies about other quite sadomasochistic
nature. which involves some self -harm at some
point. So she's living this kind of almost like
double life where she's hiding this really important
part of herself. In the course of her work, she
meets a guy called Walter, who is a engineer
-cum -master pianist. She is quite taken by him,
it's fair to say. She likes Walter, but then
repeatedly seems to reject him both professionally
as a piano player. And sexually, there's quite
a lot of her almost kind of giving him the come
on, for want of a better phrase, and then stopping
it dead and setting the rules and being quite
controlling and almost manipulative in the way
that she deals with him. But she shares with
him all of her darkest fantasies and what she
wants to happen. And they develop this kind of
fucked up sadomasochistic relationship. All of
this is going on while... Erica lives with her
abusive mum, which is an interesting thing for
us to talk about. Yes, there's a lot to say about
that. She's living with her abusive mum. And
this relationship between Erica and Walter is
quite dysfunctional. He's not the best person
in the world. She is, on the one hand, very,
very repressed and almost ashamed of what she
wants, whilst also trying to encourage Walter
to be the worst kind of sadist. In the world.
And that all leads to a climax where Walter comes
to her house and either gives her what she wants
or sexually assaults her. And we're not quite
sure which it is. Yep. Which is one of the big
messages of the movie. Very ambiguous ending,
yeah. And then the film ends and you are left
without answers. Which is not a bad thing. I
almost sounded critical when I said that. That's
not necessary. That's not the thing I dislike
about the movie. um i like the fact that it's
really ambiguous yeah very very unclear and i
think particularly ambiguous for us because of
who we are as people i think 99 of people watching
that at least on a first watch would definitely
unambiguously see that as a rape scene um and
i think that certainly by the time that happens
she is not in control of the situation and has
has found a side of walter that she is not able
to rein in even if she wants to yeah but the
ambiguity for me is in whether what happened
there was that she found that things had gone
too far and she could lost control and had been
raped or whether even after getting everything
that she specifically asked for it's still not
enough yeah because she's devastated afterwards
but what exactly is happening internally in her
as a mystery as it is throughout the movie she
is We are very much invited to get under her
skin with her and feel a lot of things we're
feeling, but we very rarely get any insight into
the things she's thinking. And I really like
that, that sort of tension as the audience experience.
And I think possibly that's one of the things
that kind of frustrated me a little bit about
it is that we didn't really know what she was
thinking. Like the ambiguity of the final scene
is fine. It's a good way to end the movie and
kind of not understanding how she's feeling at
that moment kind of makes sense. But the whole
movie just feels really quite cold and quite
clinical. And you don't really understand anyone.
Yeah. You're guessing at what's going on a lot
of the time. That's fair. Yeah, definitely. And
I think having seen it a second time, I felt
like I knew the characters a little better a
second time. But there is an element of these
are people who are quite closed books, quite
closed off from each other. Not just Walter and
Erica. All of the characters that we really see.
are working their own agendas and we're not necessarily
because we see them from every character's point
of view we're not necessarily seeing them as
who they are we're seeing them as who they are
presenting to the world i would say that's true
of the mother i would say it as um the student
who i've called in my notes perpetually crying
girl um like her mother just everyone that we
meet is in their own bubble detached from everyone
else with their own shit going on and i think
the audience being detached from them as well
that works for me yeah i do think one of the
curious things about this movie is that it's
not an explicitly kink focused movie weirdly
it is about sadism and masochism but it's not
about a kinky lifestyle or kink as a concept
very much focused on sadism and masochism Almost
as mental states or mental disorders. Yeah, and
it's definitely taking those to their extreme
points through a lot of it. I was thinking, it's
interesting, I wouldn't say there is a single...
consensual sex act shown in that movie apart
from when erica is completely alone the things
that she does completely on her own um anything
where there's a sexual interaction between two
people it's not consensual um there's a scene
early on in the movie where she sneaks into a
drive -in and is watching people have sex in
a car um without their knowledge and then they
find they find her watching and they are not
happy about it one of them chases her off um
there is all of the interactions between her
and walter where there's a real push and pull
of power but it's never negotiated and it's never
both people equally happy with what's going on
at any given time and that i think is what separates
it from being a movie about kink where a movie
could be about a bdsm relationship and show sort
of poor negotiation or like not ideal consent
but if a movie is about bdsm is it is at least
going to attempt to show some form of consent
or enthusiasm from everyone involved and this
really doesn't because it's not about that although
the relationship that she tries to initiate with
walter is a consensual kinky relationship that
doesn't work that doesn't ever happen because
his initial reaction is disgust and then when
he does engage with it it's in a way of sort
of losing control of some of the worst parts
of himself it's never Something where either
or both of them really have full control over
what's happening. And I find that really interesting
because the way that I like to experience sadism
and masochism is through consensual kink. I like
it to be negotiated and risk managed and all
of that good stuff. But the way that I fantasize
about kink and the way that I feel my masochism
when I'm alone and when I'm just processing my
thoughts. consent doesn't need to be a part of
that because there's no one involved other than
me yeah so it is about those really extreme and
intense feelings it is about chasing what are
the worst things i could experience and what
might that feel like that sort of curiosity and
exploring that through fiction i think is a really
interesting way of learning more about that kind
of headspace and having more acceptance of that
kind of headspace because much as no responsible
ethical sadist or masochist should be doing any
other stuff from that movie we may feel sometimes
like some of the characters in that movie we
may in our like darkest most innermost thoughts
feel like them yeah and having that externalized
can can be really healthy um it's actually similar
to some stuff we're going to be talking about
in an episode in a couple of weeks that we have
with an author who's going to be chatting to
us about dark romance and pitch black romance
and how particularly for women but for increasingly
people in general that is becoming a way of externalizing
some of the most fucked up things that rattle
around in their heads and how healing that can
be for sort of overcoming shame and i feel like
it's a very different genre and it's a very different
vibe but i feel like the piano teacher really
nails that as well i think What was interesting
about what you just said there was it made me
smile a little bit because you were talking about
kind of consensual kink, which is obviously what
we do. Yeah. Heavily negotiated, always consensual.
But the way that we do that, and you've said
before on this very here award winning podcast,
is that, yes, it's important that it's consensual,
but you want your consent to be as far away from
the moment as possible. Yeah. So actually what
you're experiencing in the moment. is probably
more like what happens in the movie yeah i think
that's fair definitely in terms of the the feel
of it the level of violence in the final scene
i would say we would struggle to justify under
rack yes i don't want to be punched and kicked
in the face no i mean i kind of do but it wouldn't
be safe yeah um and that scene obviously involves
a non -consenting third party as well because
her mother is locked in the next room while it's
happening hearing everything so absolutely i
i want no part in that um but yeah a lot of the
stuff we do on the surface if you're a fly on
the wall watching it very much looks like non
-consensual um and in the moment if i get into
the headspace deep enough and we add enough to
keep it intense enough it can it can feel non
-consensual while also having that double think
going on of knowing that it is knowing that we
consented and we negotiated and we put all the
safety planning in place and knowing that i can
just fall into those intense feelings while knowing
that they're not completely real yeah yeah Yeah.
Which is also what a movie does because it's
not real. It's not real. But you can feel stuff
along with the characters. True. Like another
aspect of the non -consensual, poorly negotiated,
definitely not very rack of them approach is
there's quite a lot of their interactions are
quite manipulative and kind of coercive on both
sides. Definitely. The movie is kind of set up
as she's the one doing the manipulating and she's
the one doing the coercing of this naive but
pretty awful. young man yeah but it kind of goes
both ways doesn't it it's it's there is definitely
elements of her kind of manipulating the situation
and trying to almost coerce him into doing things
but he's not great yeah there are a lot of times
where he just grabs her and starts doing stuff
to her without her consent even before the the
final rape scene um there are a lot of times
where he will say sort of guilting coercive things
to her like you know you can't get a man riled
up like this and then pull away and things like
that where he acts as if he's entitled to sex
because she's kissed him um they both at different
times and in different ways push each other's
boundaries or fully just step over each other's
boundaries with no regard for them yeah and it's
interesting because on the surface you could
very much see it as a from two different perspectives
you could see it as a one -sided power imbalance
where one she is a teacher he is an adult but
he is coming to her to be taught um he is younger
than her she is really well established in her
field you know there's a power imbalance there
but on the flip side she's asking him to dominate
her and at times he is violent towards her so
you could also see it entirely one -sided from
that perspective is she's this sexually repressed
teacher who doesn't really know what she's getting
into and then this man is pushing her boundaries
coercing her assaulting her multiple times um
and you see it as abusive in that direction but
the way that power exists in both of them is
so different from each other that they are able
to do each other quite a lot of harm at different
times in the movie which i yeah as an examination
of power rather than consensual power exchange
i find really really interesting yeah which is
also something i really liked with baby girl
which is another one that you weren't the biggest
fan of um but we've got a older female ceo who's
also sexually submissive, with a younger male
dominant who is an intern, I believe, in her
company. So it's one of those things where the
power, the sort of real world power, is all one
-sided. But the sexual power and the power in
their relationship often drifts over to him,
but with some push and pull because of her position.
And I really like that because it didn't put
them into too neat. clear boxes where this is
dominant and this is submissive and there is
no no blaring yeah i enjoy that yeah that's fair
we should probably watch baby girl again and
do it as an episode maybe i will go into it with
a slightly different perspective i agree but
the next movie we watch should be one that you
either already know you like or are confident
that you're going to because i feel bad that
we're like we've had crash we've had the piano
teacher if we do baby girl next you're just you're
gonna veto any more movie episodes yeah true
true i Without wanting to sound like a bloodite,
my concern is that a lot of the movies that are
about kink or BDSM or deviant sexuality or whatever
kind of topics you might want to cover are going
to be pretentious art school nonsense. I mean,
yeah, one that's really high on my list to do
is Nymphomaniac, which, again, I absolutely love.
But it's you're going to hate it. And it's four
hours. You're going to hate it for a really long
time. You know, yeah. I just really struggle
with that kind of movie. Yeah. It's a bit like,
just to go completely off topic, it's a bit like
watching the Oscar movies every year. There's
some really, really good movies that are nominated
for that. But there are also some movies that
are really hard work. Yeah. Because they're trying
to create something which is worthy of an Oscar.
And you can see the workings. And you can see
them doing it. And I'm very unforgiving of that
if they're not good enough to be worth my effort
and time in engaging with it. But when they do
it right, I absolutely love it. And I think sometimes
with the Oscar movies, I feel like your tolerance
for it is higher than mine because I'm really
picky. I have to really like a movie to be willing
to sort of put in the extra brain work to understand
what they're saying to me. If I don't love it
in the first 20 minutes, then I start to switch
off from that. Yeah. Where a lot of the time
you give a really fair chance to Oscar movies
where if it was down to me, I would be switching
them off. Yeah. And that's fair. And that's because
I make a bit of a game of it. Yeah. I like to
watch the movies that are nominated for Oscars.
Yeah. And I like to be able to watch because
I like to watch the Oscars. And I like to be
able to watch it with a bit of a view on what
I think should win. Yeah. Rather than just knowing
a handful of the most popular or most famous,
most well advertised one. So yeah, maybe I am
a little bit more. more forgiving um of those
films so what what i want is a film that is about
deviant sexuality kink or bdsm which doesn't
have to be a kind of popular populist movie but
just well made you know and and telling a good
story and being really clever in the way that
it does it you want like a clear beginning middle
and end sort of narrative where you understand
what the character's motivations are without
having to interpret symbolism too much is that
kind of the vibe you want i don't think it's
quite that stark but somewhere between the two
yeah like you know as well as we'll come on to
And we've already mentioned there's a lot in
The Piano Teacher which is about being disconnected
and being isolated in the same way that Crash
did. But you can achieve that without disconnecting
and isolating and alienating your audience. Maybe
I am asking too much. I guess there's something
about my perspective as well. Films like The
Piano Teacher have a bit of a reputation as being
shocking and disturbing. Those kind of words
are applied to it by the general population.
And from my perspective, as a kinky, dominant,
sadist, physically and emotionally sadist person,
I watched The Piano Teacher and went, looks like
a lot of the stuff that happens in our house.
Not all of it. Obviously, there are elements
of it, like you've already said, that would not
be safe or ethical for us to do. But it's not
a million miles away from some of the stuff that
we will consensually engage in and enjoy. Yeah,
I think movies like... like The Piano Teacher
and like Crash, the people who find them extremely
shocking are not generally people who have...
Not saying that they don't have sort of interesting
or varied sex lives, but they're maybe not branching
out into some of the heavier ends of kink. No.
Because, yeah, if you do, although there will
be things in those kind of movies that you'll
see and go, yeah, I wouldn't do that. That's
not acceptable. That's not okay. That's not safe.
There won't be a lot in it where you can't imagine
why someone would like it. Yeah. And that's...
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, just
as we've been talking there, it's kind of, I
worry with these artfully made, ambiguous, shocking
and disturbing films that are made around kink
and BDSM and deviant sexuality. It feels a little
bit contrived to achieve the shock and the outrage
and the disturbance by focusing on something
that is a very real part of people's sexuality.
Like sadism and masochism are very real parts
of people's sexual identity. Yeah. And actually,
if you're just using that as a vehicle to shock
and disturb and titillate your audience, then
actually you can fuck off. I can see that, yeah.
So I have that suspicion in the back of my head
with films like this. Are you actually trying
to do an intelligent social commentary? Or are
you just making a film that's going to get you
famous and probably get you mentioned at Cannes?
Yeah. And I personally, I would put The Piano
Teacher in. in the first box if they're doing
it for the right reasons to make a point because
the more i think about it and both times i've
watched it the more sort of just fires off for
me in my head about it where i feel like although
it is a movie about sadism and masochism i think
a lot of what it's about is more about the disconnection
that we're going to come on to and about what
happens when you have desire without empathy
um which is very much i would say the case for
both of the main characters where my interpretation
is that erica sees walter as the sort of symbolic
realization of all the fantasies that she's been
having alone of this is someone who i can bring
out these qualities in that will be able to deliver
all of these things that i want to happen to
me he has a darkness to him he has a violent
edge to him and she wants to nurture that and
find out what it can deliver but it's seeing
him as a kink dispenser essentially she's seeing
him as what he can provide and what she can make
use of him for even though she's wanting to cast
him in a dominant role where walter sees her
as this sort of idealized fantasy figure that
he has a crush on, and as soon as he finds out
that the idealised fantasy he has isn't who she
actually is on the inside, that her sexuality
isn't going to be about yielding to him and doing
things the way that he wants them to be and giving
him everything he wants as soon as he demands
it, then he is actively disgusted by her. And
I don't think his disgust is primarily about
her masochism, that's what he expresses disgust
about, but I think his disgust is about her lack
of compliance. Right. She is not the... meek
submissive woman that he had cast her as in his
head when he saw that she was quiet and restrained
and repressed he probably thought not a lot of
sexual experience gonna be absolutely desperate
for a little bit of attention a little bit of
love and by saying and doing a few of the right
things i can get anything i want from her yeah
and as soon as he found out that's not who she
was he didn't want it anymore but he still found
himself fascinated by her and that that mutual
objectification between them and the inability
for either of them to see the other as a whole
person yeah that felt like more of the point
to me than the masochism and so bringing masochism
into that yes it's to a mainstream audience probably
very shocking but it also creates sort of a visual
language for the intensity of that yeah of the
the sort of in a war that they're both having
with these idealized versions of each other that
they've created and the refusal of the other
to comply with it and the messiness of that all
spilling out and that like i said desire without
empathy and how messy and damaging and actually
violent that is in itself you kind of to show
that in a movie you need some violence yeah i
think that's yeah that's why i think there was
masochism in it yeah and i really like that that
sort of tension between them explores a corruption
story but not in the stereotypical way you think
of corruption as like corruption of innocence
there's someone who is completely you know sexually
inexperienced never had a bad thought about anyone
in their life being led down a bad path by another
person it's kind of what you think of as a corruption
storyline walter is not that He's very much corrupted
over the course of The Piano Teacher, but he's
definitely not an innocent. He is, I would say
the early scenes we see of Walter, he's a rapist
in training already. Like, entitled, pushy, no
regard for boundaries, very arrogant, very demanding.
And as I said already, kind of... has put erica
in a box and will react very hostile to any indication
that she doesn't fit that box for him so it's
not an innocent being corrupted what it is is
is her being drawn to those worst parts of him
and setting out to bring them out more and more
and more for her own needs yeah um and With the
ambiguity of the ending, it's debatable whether
she succeeds in that or loses control of that
process or a little of both. But that's certainly
what the early stages of their relationship were
about. She saw something violent in him and wanted
to make use of it, which I thought was a really
interesting way of exploring corruption without
having to put him, you know, wearing a white
dress and a halo. to to tell that story yeah
yeah almost that kind of i can make him worse
yeah sort of instead of i can fix him yeah i
can make him even worse um yeah because he's
a bit of a shit isn't he i mean his mates are
a bit a bit shitty yeah you know there's a couple
of scenes like the the one on the ice rink where
they go out to play ice hockey and just completely
bulldoze these two women who are doing ice dance
and she's off in the corner kind of watching
it going oh yeah yeah clearly excited or interested
or aroused by what he's doing yeah so yeah i
don't think it would have worked if he had been
innocent no like the way that things went would
have seemed unbelievable i wouldn't have been
believable that she would have been interested
in him anyway yeah and the way that he responded
to to his sort of shock at what she was asking
for i think would have been very different um
yeah because so much of his reaction to that
is coming from his entitlement and feeling like
what he what he wants isn't going to be delivered
by this woman because she's a huge pervert so
the severity of his rejection of her initially
i think is yet another of his red flags you needed
you needed him to be full of red flags to tell
the story that i was sorry yeah yeah yeah yeah
he's not gonna get his meat compliant little
woman is he no definitely not me one of the themes
that comes through quite clearly in the film
is about people being disconnected and people
feeling apart from the world um erica is very
in her professional life very aloof and a lot
of her sexual exploration or her exploration
of her masochism is is done alone so you know
stuff we've talked about about her self -harm
when she went to the drive -in even when she
goes to the sex shop you know she's the only
woman in the room only woman in the shop And
she goes into one of the little cubby holes where
you can watch the films, kind of no interaction
with everybody else. In fact, the only interaction
she has with anybody in any of those places is
when she catches two of her students looking
at porn mags. Yeah. And she shames them for it.
Which is hilarious. Which is... Very, very hypocritical,
but completely on brand for her. Yeah, because
she's incredibly cruel to her students just all
the time. Their piano skills, their personalities,
all of it she will rip into them for. Yeah, yeah.
So I can see the point of that. She's kind of
separating herself from the people around her
and separating herself from the world. And the
only way that she can feel real is by the things
that she does to herself. And then she looked
to Walter to deliver that. for her like you say
like you've said in that kind of kink dispensary
way and i can get that logically but i've one
of the things i really struggled with this film
was because it was done in a way that made you
feel disconnected you were supposed to feel the
isolation that these people feel and the disconnection
that these people feel and the alienation or
whatever word you want to describe to it that
didn't work for me because it made me feel disconnected
and alienated from what was happening on the
screen You know, it didn't click in that way.
And in some ways it kind of makes me feel a little
bit like I'm not smart enough to understand the
film because I didn't engage with it in that
way, in that kind of knowing way. Oh yes, this
is what the artist is trying to create. It left
me feeling a little bit cold and like, well,
I don't really care. Yeah, and I don't think
that's a... an intelligence thing i think different
movies are always going to work differently for
different people regardless of how smart you
are it's entirely possible i'm just a pretentious
dickhead who likes to think too hard about things
and you know no one's right or wrong here i think
sometimes movies that kind of instead of setting
out to tell you a story and entertain you that
instead set out to make you identify with a character
or feel what a character's feeling and kind of
draw you into it they often can be a little bit
more of a headache to appreciate they're not
really movies that you enjoy it's more of an
immersive experience and and a piece of art and
that doesn't mean that you are like better or
smarter or anything else if you like those kind
of movies or if you like to just watch a story
yeah both of those are completely valid um and
and meet different needs and sometimes it's even
just down to like the timing of when you saw
a I don't know if Funny Games would have had
so much of an impact on me if I'd watched it
in my 30s and had already kind of got a really
sort of good level of self -awareness about myself
and knew myself really well. I think watching
something like that in a transitional phase of
life where I was figuring out who I was and then
having myself like violently confronted with
things about myself was like an experience that
can't be replicated. Yeah. So it might be that
the day you watched The Piano Teacher was not
the day for you to... sit for a couple of hours
and experience sort of sexual repression and
disconnection from the world through a woman
in austria yeah that's fair that's fair and i
think it is it goes back to what i said before
kind of watching it as i do in my mid -40s when
i've really kind of stepped into my identity
my kink identity and my my sadism yeah you know
with the with the kind of dynamic that we've
got this is the most authentic i've ever felt
in my entire life so that kind of raises the
bar a little bit about what is shocking and disturbing
to me but also means that i find that kind of
separation and repression almost feels a little
bit foreign to me now yeah i wonder if you might
have experienced the movie differently if you'd
watched it 10 years ago yeah Yeah, that's what
I was kind of thinking as well. If I'd watched
this, I don't know if I would have been... How
old is it? 20 years old? About that, yeah. Mid
to late 20s when it came out. Maybe I would have
felt differently about it. But yeah, maybe that's
the bit that I'm struggling with a little bit
on this. I don't relate to that. I don't relate
to the repression part of it because I'm not
repressing that. And I don't relate to the idea
of it being kind of shocking and disturbing because
my baseline is different. Yeah. To the... to
the average movie -watching audience. But you
did have some thoughts about the way that it
portrayed that kind of isolation and disconnection
in the movie. Yeah, like you, it made me feel
really disconnected and sort of cold. But I loved
that. I loved the immersion of it. And it really
felt like it was creating and inviting us to
experience with her the contrast between the...
intensity and rage and really, really raw desire
that are going on under the surface with Erica.
with who she is and who she has to be on the
outside of that um she has a very controlling
mother who monitors everywhere that she goes
and everything that she does so even just being
able to have time to explore her sexuality is
very difficult for her she's in this line of
work which is very much driven by sort of respectability
and class and having to present yourself in a
certain way that would be really at odds with
not just her sexuality but sexuality in general
and experiencing her navigate that really sort
of made me feel connected to her as a character
her life is very different from mine and her
sexuality is very different from mine we're both
masochists and that's about about all we've got
but I have very strong memories of the period
of time where I was repressing my masochism of
just feeling like there was a storm under the
surface all the time like there was just this
internal screaming going on all the time and
because I wasn't letting it out I never felt
quite real I never felt quite present in my relationships
and in sex it was always like i was watching
it from 30 feet away and a movie that really
manages to capture how that feels like and the
relief and the emotional messiness that comes
with finally letting that crack and come out
yeah um that's what really hit home for me with
it yeah because that's the only time that you
really see her present i suppose isn't it is
when she's doing those things you know you can
kind of see it on her face when she cuts herself
in the bathroom And even at the drive -ins. Because
she pees, doesn't she? She watches them have
sex and then she pees. Yeah. And then they get
out of the car. And chase her. And chase her
away. That's one of the few moments in the movie
where she kind of comes to life. Yeah. For me,
it's because she's feeling something. Yeah. She's
letting that stuff come to the surface and experience
it. And then she runs away and then she buttons
up again. Yeah. You know? Or she leaves the sex
shop. buttons up again and shames the teenagers
for looking at porn magazines yeah and the whole
pattern until she gets involved with walter the
whole pattern is that she is exploring sexuality
and desire but without connection and that having
sort of persisted so late into her life i don't
know exactly how old she's meant to be but she's
probably in her 30s yeah um you know, long enough
without connection to another person that that
has become her norm, which I think is a big part
of where the lack of sort of ability to see Walter
as a whole person and the lack of ability to
make any attempt to communicate with him as a
fellow partner in the relationship and someone
who might have his own desires he wants to explore
because she's so used to this being a thing that
she does completely alone without any knowledge
or feedback or involvement of another person
that she doesn't know how to be anything else.
Yeah. It's that really sort of chronic, severe
isolation. Yeah. It reminds me a lot of like
the term incel was originally developed by women.
It was a term for women who had sort of reached
a point in their life where they had been single
and sexually inexperienced for so long that it
felt like an insurmountable barrier to explore
with anyone else. And then the term has been
horribly co -opted by misogynist men who think
that women turning them down. is is a personal
affront and that obviously is the women who are
wrong here and not their own obnoxious behavior
that is stopping them from getting laid but it
started as a beginning to understand the the
not uniquely female experience but an experience
that is maybe more common in women of becoming
sexually invisible at not even an old age at
anything older older than 21 if you haven't made
your sexual debut and established your sexuality
and figured out what you want and figured out
how to have the confidence to go after it After
that point, it becomes so much harder year after
year after year to the point where it becomes
almost impossible to overcome. And the way that
a woman who isn't openly expressing sexuality
becomes completely invisible instead. Yeah. That
very much felt like what Erica was going through,
or at least perceiving in herself. Clearly wasn't
sexually invisible because Walter was very interested,
but definitely put herself in that box. And there
was a certain amount of desperation to all of
her solo exploration of her sexuality, where
it was both... these needs coming to the surface
and really just bursting out of her but also
like almost kind of frantic like this is all
there is and i have to hold on to this because
what if even this goes as well yeah like that
fear of losing that part of herself completely
that i really like yeah yeah yeah because she
does go quite hard doesn't she when she kind
of reveals to walter what she's into she writes
her um a very long letter outlining everything
that she wants him to do in almost kind of psychopath
scrawl as well yeah you know like pages and pages
of this tiny little wiggly handwriting it made
me for some reason the image that popped into
my head is that scene from friends where ross
says you wrote 18 pages front and back yeah you
had rambled on It was a little like that, yeah.
And also like the weird messages you get from
guys on FetLife that is like, not usually quite
that long, but like two or three paragraphs of
explicit detail of what they want. And it's like,
hello? Yes. What do I do with all of this information?
Sir, this is a Wendy's. Yeah. And like, Walter
is not a great person. He has a lot of red flags
that some therapy would fix. But I did feel a
bit of sympathy for him when he read that letter.
Because out of the blue, that is quite a lot.
It is quite a lot to receive, yeah. And quite
a lot to be told, not only to receive that information,
but to be told you have to just sit and read
this. She tried to get him to take it away and
read it by himself. And he refused in typical
Walter fashion, ignored all of her boundaries,
followed her home, pushed his way into her house
and came and sat with her in her room. and then
agreed to read it after much complaining about
it. But yeah, to be in a position where you have
a crush on someone and want to hook up with them
and their response is to give you pages and pages
and pages and tell you to go away and read it
by yourself. It's quite a lot to handle. Yeah,
yeah. That scene as well, there was, for such
a sort of heavy and also quite cold movie, it
had some moments of humour and I think that scene
was definitely one of them because this takes
place at Erica's home where she lives with her
mother. who is extremely controlling and when
walter pushes his way into the house the mother
is immediately not happy about this um very displeased
at the thought that erica might be having some
sort of relationship and so erica takes walter
into the bedroom shuts the door and pushes a
chest of drawers in front of it to keep the mother
out and her mother is banging on the door trying
the handle rattling it yelling and screaming
calling her all sorts of names and then goes
and sits in the other room like huffs about it
and throughout this scene while erica's explaining
her desires walter's reading the letter and walter's
getting upset and and rejecting her and saying
this is disgusting all of this really heavy stuff
going on in the bedroom just every now and again
we cut to the mother just absolutely furious
that she's being left out of what's going on
and trying to listen at the door and things yeah
yeah um she's kind of hate watching tv isn't
she well well while all of this is going on yeah
thanks um and it is funny but also quite uncomfortable
as well because it's such an abnormal reaction
to your adult daughter wanting to have a conversation
in her room or even wanting to have sex in her
room she is a grown -ass adult yeah go put tv
on and leave her to it yeah it's such a disproportionate
reaction i think one of the things the movie
does a lot of is creates moments of discomfort
like we talked about i think how shocking the
movie is depends a lot on on your level of sensitivity
and what your experiences are and what kind of
things you've watched before. But I think the
discomfort is very universal. I think there are
not many people who would be able to sit through
that movie without ever feeling uncomfortable
and awkward and not really knowing where to look
at times. I think so. And one scene in particular,
after all of that happens, where they're in the
bedroom and she's banging on the door and stuff,
is when they go to bed that night and one of
the... really uncomfortable things throughout
this movie is that they share a bed yeah erica
and her mother and there is another bedroom the
bedroom where erica had the conversation with
walter is her bedroom but she doesn't sleep in
there she sleeps in the bed with her mother sleeps
in bed with her mother um but they're lying in
bed and all of a sudden erica climbs on top of
her mum and starts passionately kissing her yeah
and that talk about an uncomfortable thing to
to watch and from my perspective like that really
visceral kind of what the fuck is going on what
what is all of this um seemingly out of nowhere
i know we've got they've got an abusive relationship
but that's the first time you see something like
that between the two of them it's usually kind
of fighting and arguing yeah but they've throughout
the movie they are it's not a happy closeness
but they are incredibly close and enmeshed with
each other um where the mother particularly seems
to really depend on erica being present at all
times can't handle any level of distance can't
handle not knowing where she is yeah you know
calls repeatedly if she's out of the house and
things like that and that scene is incredibly
uncomfortable and shocking and the first time
i saw it i definitely wasn't expecting it and
was just like oh my god what the fuck like you
yeah but it also makes complete sense to me because
the whole relationship is emotionally incestuous
yeah where erica has been put in the role of
of the husband of the parent of everything to
the mother yeah um and because that's something
i have some experience of that was very much
a feature of some of the abuse that i went through
it's part of what's horrifying about that is
the adultification that you experience as a child
and the incredible amount of responsibility part
of the damage from that comes from the lack of
healthy boundaries and not knowing how to set
any boundaries because you've essentially been
forbidden from having them since birth but part
of the damage from emotional incest is the constant
threat of it crossing that line even if nothing
sexual is ever explicitly said or stated if you
know the boundaries between you and a parent
or an adult family member are inappropriate and
you know that the boundaries that you do have
are very much within their control to fluctuate
and change at any time once you become aware
of the threat of potential sexual abuse once
you know that that's a thing that can happen
you constantly feel like it might So when you're
living under that threat and there's always the
potential it becomes something more, one way
to deal with that is to try to avoid the threat
and that is how most people try to deal with
it and that's definitely how I dealt with it.
But I can understand for Erica who has a very
strong need to take control of things and has
a tendency to repress, shut down, repress, shut
down and then explode. That's her cycle throughout
of her taking control of that by making the bad
thing happen. Yeah. It's like, this is clearly
where this is going. So I'm going to be the one
that crosses that line, not you claiming control
over it. Yeah. I think that also ends up meaning
that her mother's story runs in parallel to hers
in a way because her mother wants this emotionally
entangled, emotionally incestuous relationship.
And she is. pushing for that and creating that
and forcing it to happen through her control
and then ultimately gets the conclusion of what
she has essentially been asking for throughout
yeah of her daughter becoming sexually confused
about the nature of their relationship and not
just kissing her but trying to force herself
on her like starting to pull up her nightgown
and things like that and yeah her having to confront
that thing that she has essentially manipulated
them both towards yeah and then obviously that
is is similar to what happens with erica where
she wants to bring out the violence and the aggression
in walter she wants him to do all these violent
things to her part of the letter that she writes
to him describes a home invasion rape fantasy
where he breaks into her home locks her mother
in another room beats her and rapes her and ties
her up while her mother is banging on the door
shouting for him to stop and that's exactly what
happens at the end of the film yeah and so it's
something about that being careful what you wish
for i guess and and understanding sort of where
where those kind of explorations can lead and
then will you actually want what you were chasing
once you have it yeah that both erica and her
mother end up having to deal with yeah but it
also comes out of fucking nowhere it's easy enough
to say like oh yeah these are all the themes
and the symbolism in hindsight but at the time
it's like jesus fucking christ she's kissing
her mother yes yeah A really uncomfortable thing
to watch. And, you know, given everything I've
said, one of the genuinely shocking moments of
the film. Yeah. It was not expecting that at
all. No. You know? And credit to the director
and the people who made the film. I think, to
be fair to them, the way that they shot it made
that even more so. Yeah. It's quite a still movie.
Which seems like a really silly thing to say.
But there aren't lots of cuts. There isn't a
load of music over it. It is quite cold and quite
dispassionate. Yeah, quite a lot of static cameras
and cameras at quite a distance from the characters.
Yeah, yeah. So that scene and the final scene,
where the home invasion scene at the end, almost
kind of filmed in a way that kind of challenges
you to watch it. Yeah. In a kind of way going,
you shouldn't be looking at this. But here it
is. Static camera. This is all you can see. There
are no cuts to break up what is happening. Deal
with it. Yeah, it's like the movie is making
eye contact with you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which
is very unsettling. Yeah. I'll be honest with
you, because we watched it a week ago. I can't
remember how the final scene is shot, but it
feels like it was kind of a single camera. Yeah.
I don't think there was lots of cuts, which is
quite clever. There's definitely a couple of
really long takes in there, yeah, which adds
to that. So if this isn't something you should
be looking at, but you have to look. Yeah. It's
confrontational in the same way that Funny Games
is. Yeah. Like, you sat down to watch this movie.
Yeah. Deal with it. Deal with it now. Yeah, yeah.
Or look away, you coward. I think it was, it's
interesting for me how the film intentionally
creates a lot of discomfort. And I mean, based
on the one other film by this director, I've
seen maybe that he just loves making people uncomfortable.
But I think for this movie specifically, it felt
like it was encouraging us to, as with the disconnection,
to sort of step into the skin of the characters
a bit. Because Erica and Walter are two deeply
uncomfortable people. um and they are both uncomfortable
with their sexuality in their own way so erica
is repressing herself she has these sort of brief
bursts of letting it out mostly alone then finds
walter and and lets it out with him sort of more
full force but with this sort of constant self
-loathing that overlays it all of knowing that
this is messy and difficult to deal with and
she doesn't know how to present that to someone
and then with walter he puts a lot of the blame
of this onto erica and tries to make it her problem
and saying you know you've got me worked up you
have to deal with it kind of thing but he is
clearly completely incapable of sitting with
desire without action yeah if he wants to fuck
her he needs to fuck her right there and then
otherwise it's unbearable for him and he can't
cope like go home and have a wank my guy so he
doesn't have the the security in his solo sexuality
to manage his desires almost the opposite of
erica in a way where he hasn't created this secretive
inner world to go into so doesn't know where
to put himself when he doesn't have an outlet
um and they're both in this so sexually tense
sexually uncomfortable space for the entire movie
where what they want is so at odds from each
other but they're both pushing each other to
try to cave to each other's demands and they
don't know themselves sexually and they don't
have any comfort with themselves sexually it's
I think something that most perverts will relate
to to some level. Not that we all behave like
either of those characters, I certainly hope.
But that feeling of, God, there are so many sexual
thoughts in me that no one else is going to want
to understand and I don't know where to put them
and I don't know how to cope, I think is definitely
a period that a lot of us have gone through.
And so the movie having scenes that are really
uncomfortable, at times shocking, often really
awkward, like a lot of Erica's social interactions
are just a little bit awkward and cringy to watch.
Yeah. Because she's so fucking rude to everybody.
To everybody. And just the secondhand embarrassment
sometimes of watching the things that she's saying
and the way she's behaving is like, oh God, to
me is more uncomfortable than a lot of the sexual
stuff and violent stuff in the movie. Oh, oh
no. I think that making the audience as uncomfortable
as the characters are is again, a really good
way of, for a movie about two people with very
limited empathy, it's a good way of making sure
that you at least get the double dose of it.
Yeah. I will give the film that. Definitely succeeded
at being uncomfortable for you, Mix, if nothing
else. Yes. Which is, again, I think why it's
a divisive movie. I know there's been, as with
a lot of movies like this, a lot of controversy
about some of the specific content, you know,
the violent and particularly the sexually violent
content. But I think this is a movie that some
people would always hate because it makes you
feel disconnected and it makes you feel uncomfortable.
Neither of those are feelings that most people
want to experience ever. No. So I don't think
it's surprising at all that you... didn't like
it and i think if you ever wanted to give it
a second watch and you went in knowing you were
going to feel that way you might get more out
of it but also it's okay to just not like a movie
because it deliberately sets out to make you
feel like you're having a bad time yeah that
is true that is true yeah maybe i will like i
mean it's i said earlier on we should probably
watch baby girl again i think there is an element
of that as well that wasn't about discomfort
or anything like that i just thought the male
lead was a dick um I didn't relate to it. I think,
not to pivot to a completely different movie,
but I think you related to it a lot more than
I did. Yeah. And you probably related to the
piano teacher more than I did. Yeah. That's probably
why you're getting, that might be part of why
you're getting more from it as well. It's like
I didn't have a character in Baby Girl that I
saw. like related to yeah no i can totally see
that because the dominant in baby girl was nothing
like you yeah and there's there's no one in the
piano teacher who's like you i think yeah if
you went in with adjusted expectations i think
you might see parts of yourself in erica because
i think anyone who's been a repressed pervert
will see a bit of themselves in erica yeah um
but you maybe have to look for it a little bit
more and there is that huge wall with the piano
teacher where just as erica's putting up a wall
with everyone in the movie the movie is putting
up a wall between us and erica by making it really
distant cold uncomfortable and tense yeah you're
not going to want to see yourself in her when
you don't like her and you feel like she doesn't
want you to know her yeah you have to work a
little bit to get to know her and therefore get
to know yourself One thing that we both did find
really interesting and talked about quite a lot
after the movie finished was the ambiguity of
the ending. So as we've talked about a few times,
one of the penultimate scene of the movie is
Walter forces his way into Erica's house, locks
her mother in a room, beats her and rapes her,
which is very much aligned with the stuff that
was in her letter. And then after that, we see
her the next day putting a knife in her purse,
going to the concert that she is going to be
performing in. where walter is is attending also
um waiting around for him in the lobby seeing
him laughing with his friends as if nothing's
happened and then she pulls out the knife stabs
herself in the shoulder and walks out and that's
where the movie ends and both the rape scene
and that scene are the things that the movie
is most infamous for i think of being an ending
that really makes you question what exactly what
exactly you've just watched yeah and what it
all means um and that was something we both found
really interesting to chat about afterwards i
think i think so and there is there is a non
-zero chance i'm going to say something which
is going to sound really not really problematic
while we talk about this bit i think it's very
hard to talk about this movie without talking
about the fact that it very intentionally raises
some problematic questions that's yeah yeah yeah
because on the face of it walter broke into her
home and raped her yeah that is literally what
happened on the screen but as you say that is
a fairly detailed fantasy which erica shared
with him so there's an element of so he's doing
what she asked him to do and either she didn't
like it or she liked it and i think there's an
element of that ambiguity for me as well it's
not a hundred percent clear how erica feels about
it after the fact Yeah, the only thing I think
that is really clear in that final scene when
she stabs herself is she is feeling some emotional
devastation. Yeah. But the question is, is she
devastated because she's been raped? And it's
the very standard normal response to being raped.
She is traumatized and shaken up and upset and
hurt and all of those things. Yeah. is she devastated
because she got everything that she'd asked for
and she still feels like she's not connected
like she's not feeling those things that she
wants to feel like it's still not enough yeah
or is she feeling devastated because walter is
laughing and joking with his friends like nothing
happened and he's not come running to her he's
not said you have awoken this side of me i know
who i am now i know what i want i can do all
of this for you and i love it yeah that she has
brought someone into her world and been rejected
and left alone again yeah It could be any of
those three things. And I think the sort of most
common interpretation of it is she has lost control
of the situation. This was good as a fantasy,
but not as a reality. And now she's traumatized
and she's a rape victim. And I think whichever
of those interpretations you get, she's still
a rape victim because they haven't actually negotiated
that. They haven't done any kind of safety planning.
Even if it was exactly what she wanted, it's
still not being done in a way that could be called
consensual. whether she is responding to it as
a rape victim or whether she is responding to
it as a sexually repressed lonely traumatized
woman who is still feeling unseen and unloved
that's where the ambiguity is for me and that's
what i really like about it yeah and that's a
really uncomfortable set of questions to be kind
of left with yeah you kind of sit staring at
the screen or what just happened here because
you know in a really messed up kind of way she
was literally asking for it Yeah. I think that's
the really uncomfortable kind of question that
you're left with, is she wrote down that this
is what she wanted? Yeah. And like you say, either
it wasn't what she wanted and she regretted it,
it wasn't enough, or it didn't lead to the outcome
that she wanted. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really difficult
thing to get your head around. But it got me
thinking about the way that we talk about consent,
and in particular consent violations in the kink
scene. So if you... Pick the version of that
film where she described a fantasy to Walter.
Walter delivered on that fantasy and she regretted
it. There is a version, I suppose, where that
would be described as a violation of consent.
Yeah. In the kink community, in the BDSM community,
it went too far. Walter went too far. He punched
her in the face. kicked her in the stomach all
of that kind of stuff so if you take that out
of the it being a movie and you bring it into
a more realistic situation of you agree to do
something you do something something goes wrong
or it doesn't feel the way that you wanted it
to feel that is described as a violation of consent
quite legitimately yeah described as a violation
of consent and then we talk about repair and
restoration and how you how you rebuild from
that but what actually happened in that moment
was an assault yeah and we don't talk about that
In that way, we talk about it as violating consent.
We kind of soften that language around it. And
I just think watching that kind of raised a load
of really interesting questions for me about
kind of how in the kink community, somehow we
are able to draw a line between violation of
consent and assault. Yeah, the language, even
though the word violation is a really strong
word, the way that consent violation is used.
often does feel a little bit euphemistic i think
especially because it can be applied to a very
very broad range of things yeah and none of the
things it's applied to are okay but you know
i've seen people describe um someone sort of
oversharing some really personal details with
them inappropriately and making them feel uncomfortable
as a consent violation or touching them on the
arm to get their attention like absolutely if
you've said i don't want to be touched and someone
touches you they have violated your consent It's
absolutely fine to say that. But then when that
is the only term that is used and it is also
being used to describe... cases where people
have not consented to being hit and end up being
punched repeatedly until they're bruised and
bloody or cases where someone has been raped
or has had their genitals groped and things like
that it's like actually for those we probably
do need to be saying sexual assault we need to
be saying assault we need to be saying rape yeah
um because that's what's happening in those moments
and when you flatten it all to say anything that's
crossed any boundary of yours is all in the same
box yes all of those things are wrong But some
of those things are much more likely to cause
lasting trauma. And I think, yeah, like even
with the ambiguity of the ending, in fact, probably
because of the ambiguity of the ending, we don't
know exactly what Erica is thinking about what's
happened and whether she does put it in the rape
box or whether she puts it in a boundaries cost
box. But we see it and we know that it's rape.
yeah regardless of which of those three interpretations
that you take walter has a responsibility to
approach that responsibly it's the first time
for either of them doing that kind of thing he
is angry with her genuinely angry with her in
the moment because he feels like he's been led
on and teased and messed around and controlled
um so that's not a safe headspace for him to
be doing any kind of consensual kink in they
don't have any kind of safe word and i know we
don't either but we took a long time to get there
yeah that is a deliberate choice yeah and we
have other ways of communicating and ways that
i can tell you in scene if i think things are
becoming unsafe or going too far they have no
kind of checking in even sort of checking in
in code the way that that we can sometimes do
during that kind of play you know things like
if you keep struggling i'm going to give you
another slap in the face if i struggle i'm asking
for another slap in the face yeah there's nothing
negotiated to make that safe so what he did is
completely inexcusable and is rape regardless
of how she responded to it yeah um And I think
by showing that and showing it really uncomfortable,
really tense, showing her sort of dissociated
through it, it makes you, hopefully, if you're
watching it with any kind of decent values, makes
you think, actually, if this had been described
to me by someone in the kink scene and they said,
yeah, I'd sent this person a long list of all
my rape fantasies and then they came around and
did it and I feel like I've been violated, how
many of us would... start to make excuses and
say well was it a misunderstanding were you not
clear enough yeah did you not bother to use your
safe word like that sort of victim blaming stuff
that comes out yeah when the movie shows it to
you so brutally and uncomfortably you can't make
any excuse for it because regardless of what
she said or did what he did was still completely
out of line yeah yeah yeah and it's really interesting
that movie can make you feel all that while also
raising the question of did she ask for that
yeah yeah it's such a contradiction it's a really
contradictory headspace to leave you in yeah
um and i think you're right i think you're spot
on when you say we kind of flatten everything
down to i had my consent violated i'm not saying
that that is untrue in any situation where a
person has said that but me hitting you in slightly
the wrong place is my head different to touching
your genitals or fucking you when you didn't
want to be fucked as part of a scene yeah you
know Definitely. Yeah. Like one can be a misunderstanding
or a mistake and it's still serious and still
needs to be addressed. Yeah. But it tells you
less about the value system of the person who's
done it. Yeah. And it's a frustration of mine
quite often where there are certain people that
we know or know of who are serial rapists. Yeah.
And what they sometimes get referred to as as
consent violators or this person has violated
people's consent or cross multiple people's boundaries.
And it's like that is true. But why aren't you
saying that they've raped? Yeah. Why aren't we
using the words? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, or say allegedly
if you must, you know, but that's what they are
accused of doing. That is what the concern is.
That is what the safety risk is, is that they
are accused of having raped several people. Yeah.
You need to acknowledge that because anything
that can be used in a euphemistic way and softens
that is actually putting people more at risk.
Yeah, 100 % agree. One of the things that I found
really interesting about this movie is about
the way that it explores the difference between
fantasy and reality. Because whatever sort of
interpretation of the ending you take, she clearly
is not happy about what's happened. Like, that
is one thing we can very safely say. Like, it
has shaken her to her core. Yeah. But, you know,
an hour earlier in the movie, we were seeing
her explaining how much she wants. Yeah. Very
much, you know, a scene along those lines. and
i think there's something there about particularly
when you are quite inexperienced and quite repressed
and your only way to explore your sexuality is
through play by yourself and a fantasy life your
fantasies can become more and more extreme over
time as you As you sort of look for things that
are going to make you feel enough. And just by
their nature, fantasies tend to be more extreme
than real life anyway. Because you can't actually
feel it. You can't actually smell it, taste it,
hear it. You know, you can't experience it with
any of your real senses. So you do tend to heighten
things in a fantasy so that you... get a kick
out of it yeah the things i enjoy in play are
what a lot of people would consider extreme but
the things i enjoy in fantasy are much more extreme
than that like torture murder having all my teeth
pulled out stuff that i know i wouldn't actually
want in real life yeah and there was something
interesting for me about because she is so disconnected
from people that maybe there's a part of her
that's lost the awareness that her fantasies
won't mesh well into reality in that way yeah
yeah she spent so much time in her own head that
she's a lot further along in her development,
I suppose, for want of a better word, than she
really, really is. And kind of faced with the
reality of what's in her head, it has that devastating
impact. She's very much a hit -me -with -your
-car kind of person, isn't she? Very, very detailed,
very extreme version of sadism and masochism
that she fantasises about and just seems to think
that you can just do that. Yeah. That's where
I'll start. Yeah. Makes me think of the people
that you see signing up on FetLife and their
first post on a group or whatever is, hi, I'm
a no -limits submissive looking for a mistress.
Yeah. Like, you haven't been here long enough
to know that you're no -limits. I don't think
you understand quite what that includes yet.
Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other discourse
in itself, isn't it? The criticism of people
who describe themselves as no -limits. Even leaving
aside the day one FetLife members who write their
most unhinged. fantasies out and say i want someone
to do this to me um like even in response to
people who have gone through that process don't
have safe words haven't set limits for their
partner or partners like the criticism that those
people face sometimes is is just beyond wild
to me because it always goes to the extreme and
i've seen people say it of Or if anybody contacts
me and tells me that there are no limits submissive,
I'm going to reply and say, OK, I'm going to
chop your arms off then. And it's like those
two things are not the same. Yeah. I mean, because
would you actually chop their arms off? Do you
want to chop their arms off? Yeah. Probably not.
Yeah. Yeah. You know. I think a lot of the criticism,
it comes from conflating two entirely different
groups of people. There's the day one on FetLife,
day one to kink, don't actually know any of what's
out there. And when they say I'm no limits, what
they mean is all of my fantasies feel good. And
every kink that I know that people actually do
sounds good. So that it's ignorance and naivety.
And the second group of people who describe themselves
as no limits are people who are usually very,
very experienced. in long -term dynamics, who
have reached that point after months or usually
years of hard work. Yeah. And when they say there
are no limits, what they mean is the dominant
in this relationship, the master, the mistress,
whoever the person in control in this relationship
is, is the one who decides when I've had enough.
Yeah. You don't give that level of control over
your life to someone who has any intention of
running you over with their car, chopping off
all your arms and legs. Yeah. Killing you. Yeah.
Running up. a million pounds of debt in your
name yeah like part of the trust to be no limits
with someone is is knowing the dominant partner
and knowing what their limits are and how far
they would take it and trusting them to make
those decisions for you um we don't have a no
limits dynamic but i have previously had a no
limits dynamic and it's it comes with its own
risks for sure like there's a huge element of
psychological risk but i have not ever had a
relationship with someone who i felt like if
i said you're allowed to chop my arms off would
have done it Yeah. And if I was in a relationship
with someone who would do that, I don't think
me setting chopping my arms off as a hard limit
would necessarily keep me safe. No, that's it.
If you have to set that as a hard limit with
a specific person, then there are some thoughts
to be had about that person. Yeah. You know,
it's agonisingly frustrating when I see that
snarky kind of response to that. Yeah. I think
what does have value is when the newbies turn
up saying there are no limits, is making them
aware of a selection of some of the things that
people do actually quite commonly do. And being
like, if you're going to describe yourself as
no limits, you may find completely reasonable
ethical sadists who actually want to do some
of this stuff to you. Are you sure that's the
message you want to be putting out there? And
so acknowledging things like, you know, not amputation
of limbs as far as I know, but there are people
who do digit amputations. There are people who
do sort of large sized needle and skewer play
where they will be putting skewers through your
breasts, for example. There are people like us
who like to play with burns and branding. looking
at some of that and going are you sure that that's
on your yes list because if not maybe don't describe
yourself as no limits because that isn't one
psychopath living in the woods somewhere that
are people that you might meet at your local
munch yeah like from the other side of that maybe
the sensible thing to do is to describe yourself
as someone who hasn't discovered their limits
absolutely yeah rather than saying no limits
maybe that's a more sensible way of describing
it, but we're not always our best self when we've
discovered a fun new thing and we're really excited
to live out all of our fantasies as we discovered
in this movie. Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing
we can definitely say is that Erica probably
found some of her limits in this movie and learned
in some of the most horrific ways and unnecessary
ways that could have been avoided with an ethical
partner and a communicated, negotiated relationship.
Yes. Because if Walter had been an experienced
and ethical dominant and had been presented with
that letter, he might have suggested some slightly
more lighthearted and playful CNC as an entry
point. As an entry point, yes. Rather than a
brutally violent home invasion. Yeah. And would
have respected when she didn't want to have sex
rather than saying, you can't get me worked up
like this. Yeah. He's a little shit. And trapping
the mother in another room while it all happens.
The mother should not have been involved in any
of that. That's not how we do CNC or, in fact,
anything. No. We don't involve our mothers in
anything. I mean, I don't even want my mother
in the house. Another thing that I think was
quite interesting and ambiguous is the way that
the power and control shifts a lot between Erica
and Walter. As we talked about briefly before
when we were comparing it with Baby Girl, where
it's not a straightforward dominant sadist sits
in one box, submissive masochist sits in the
other, and they have no blurring of the lines.
It was definitely a more interesting... way of
exploring power um but one of the things that
i think it left ambiguous was is she a dominant
character with a masochistic sexuality you know
she always tries to take control in her relationship
with walter she wants to make all the decision
of what happens um but her desires are for him
to be you know physically violent towards her
or is it actually that she has a submissive side
to her and her walls are up too high to let that
side out yet so she's presenting her masochism
first I felt like that was quite ambiguous as
well because she has moments of saying you can
do anything you want to me and then flips back
of going, but it's all going to be my way. Yeah.
Classic topping from the bottom. Another phrase
which I think should be banned. Absolutely. And
frustrates me incredibly when people get into
a discourse about it. You're just talking bullshit.
But anyway, there is a version of that film where
it kind of does fall into the baby girl trope
a little bit of. Someone who is very in control
of her life is at the top of her game professionally.
She's clearly respected as a musician and as
a piano teacher, but actually what she wants
is to let all of that go and have somebody else
be in charge and not have to think too much.
But she doesn't seem to be able to let go of
her need to control her environment, which I
guess is the tension with Walter, isn't it? He
wants someone who is just going to roll over
and... do as he says even if that is fairly vanilla
sex yeah yeah it's it's such an interesting conflict
where she is both too submissive and too dominant
for him yeah because he doesn't want her to be
setting any boundaries taking the lead taking
control telling him what what's what um but he
also doesn't want to dominate her in the way
that she's asking for he doesn't want to do all
of that weird shit yeah um yeah he he It says
a lot about the sort of impossible sexual standard
for women, I think, where you have to be exactly
the sexual object that a man wants you to be.
And if you step outside that in any direction,
it's seen as a moral failing. And Erica has plenty
of moral failings. The things that make Walter
the angriest with her are not it. She's a sexually
complex woman figuring herself out. Yeah. Dominant
masochist. That's the... I guess it's not a paradox,
is it? Because dominance and submission, as we
have discussed. dominance and submission and
sadism and masochism are different things yeah
they're not which talk about that on the podcast
is i think how we ended up picking the piano
teacher as the next movie to watch because you
said i struggle to get my head around a dominant
masochist and i was like i i know exactly the
one to show you yeah yeah yeah that's fair yeah
that's growth you see growth and development
and learning yep there we go That's what we're
all about. That's why we're award winning. That's
why we win awards. So considering that this was
an episode that I struggled to figure out how
to outline because I have so many thoughts about
The Piano Teacher, I feel like I could talk about
it all day, but I never know what direction to
start in. And you felt like you didn't have a
lot to say about because you hadn't been the
biggest fan of the movie. I think we've ended
up with quite a lot to say between us. Yeah,
I think so. Yeah, let's stick a microphone in
front of us and we'll waffle about anything.
Yeah, it's usually when I outline. For me, I
think... Why did I pick this topic for an episode?
I have no idea what I want to say about it. I
have zero thoughts. I don't know what makes me
want to say about it. This is going to be terrible.
And I sit down and I get my little outline document
up and I put the intro in because I still need
a script for the intro, even after like 50 episodes,
I think we're at now, very close to it. And then
I put our initials alternating down the side
of the page to know who's going to take the rough
lead on each section. And I go, I've got no fucking
ideas, but I'll put some bullet points in and
I put the introduction and I put the wrap up
in and then suddenly the rest of it is full.
And it's a whole page. And I'm like, how the
fuck? How did that happen? Yeah. And then I come
along and read it and go, yep, that makes sense.
Yep. Or sometimes you don't read it and then
we start recording and you look at it and go,
why am I starting? Why have you got me talking
about this? I have no thoughts on that. What
have you done? Why does it say wrap up however
you like? Yeah. Yes. But we muddle through. We
do. there you go that's why we win awards that's
why we win awards muddling through excellent
bye thanks for listening to this week's episode
of don't scare the newbies you can support us
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next time