Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we're going to be
talking all about leather. We've got a couple
of guests who I will be introducing very soon.
So, welcome. Today we have T and Duncan with
us. Hello. Hello. So I thought we'd start off
in the obvious and terrifying way of asking you
to tell us a little bit about yourselves. I'll
say it. My name's Duncan. I am part of the gay
lover community. I've been part of the community
for nearly five years now, so I sometimes see
it as a relatively newbie, but I also run the
local social club as well. Amazing. I'm T. I'm
quite new to the leather scene, but I'm a boot
black and have been for an amount of time now.
An amount of time. An amount of time. I've been
actively polishing boots and caring for leather
as an act of service for a few years, but I'm
newer to the act of boot blacking as its own
self -contained thing. Right. and that's i think
a really interesting distinction that we'll want
to dive into later it's sort of at what point
does it become like the thing um but no that's
cool i wondered when you said like an amount
of time of that was like being conscious that
we're sort of like all relative newbies and then
you've been part of the kink scene for like a
thousand years right yes i am actually one thousand
and three years old i spent my formative years
in antarctica it does wonders for the skin And
what about for both of you, what drew you to
the leather and kink communities? I can tell
you a little bit about myself, how I came into
it. So I am quite short. You've probably noticed
that. And before lockdown, it was difficult finding
any leather that fitted me and any kink clothing
that fitted me because of my size. Then during
lockdown, obviously, we had a little bit more
money in our pockets. I'd actually handed my
notice in just before lockdown. So I was like,
I don't really care. I can do whatever I want
now. I don't answer to anybody. And that's where
I started coming from. And then I went online,
started chatting to people on X and Instagram,
and they pointed me in the right direction of
where I could buy leather. And then suddenly,
ordered a little bit, it fitted. Ordered a bit
more, it fitted. No savings left anymore, but
a large wardrobe now of leather items. And then
I was online. So basically, I was one of those
persons. During lockdown, and again, lockdown
did help me, I'm one of the few people that really
like lockdown, that I didn't have to be anywhere.
You know, you could just be like this little
leather guy taking pictures of yourself, and
it started with no headshots, and then one day
I just started taking headshots as well, because
I've got nothing to lose, really. And then you
start chatting to more people online, and then
that's when you really discover that leather
is quite a social thing. It is a sexual thing
as well, but it is also very social. And then
you start doing Zooms online as well. The very
first time I used Zoom, I'm not very technical,
as you guys know already. And it was major fail.
Turned it on. My mic didn't work. Turned the
camera off. And there's literally, it's the Muppet
show of leather guys from all around the world
just watching you, 40 little faces. And it's
the first to the outside world. being a social
thing that leather men couldn't go out in their
gear couldn't meet up so there was lots of online
communities as well um i joined leather men scotland
and they actually had a grant from the government
to actually host a zoom call as well wow um because
again not specifically for for leather but it
was for the lgbtq community and and to stop loneliness
as well so i made a lot of friends so about six
seven eight months later when we could go out
in our leather suddenly i started meeting people
and it just all came but by then community wise
i already met people from all around the world
that we chatted we zoomed um i've stayed in people's
homes in san francisco people have stayed with
me um talking early about some australian friends
that came over as well so we really are two degrees
of separation somebody knows somebody who knows
somebody if you're confident enough and you want
to be that that part of it as well so As you
say, I've come in almost full leathers here as
well. I'll be out in public like this as well.
My parents know about it. My work knows about
it. I kept being outed on Facebook, to be honest.
So again, I just stopped caring. So basically,
I present myself as a leather man to give other
people confidence as well. I love that because
I think that's something that's really important
to me as well. Since I figured out my identity
as a submissive, I never wanted... I never wanted
other people to have the power to tell other
people about it. I didn't want to be having to
be scared of people finding out. So I'm very,
very open as well. And it's nice to meet other
people who've taken that approach because it's,
I think, scary, but worth it. Yeah, it is. It
is. And again, it's almost like a weight being
off your shoulders as well. And you kind of think,
was it really that big a deal? It was. And I
don't want to take away from that. But I compare
it to coming out. When you come out as gay or
lesbian. There's a huge thing and that weights
off your shoulders. And then when you do it again
as a leather guy or a fetish guy or kink guy
or gal or them, that weight comes off a second
time. Yeah. And the first time I went out, out
in public was to Glasgow. I often tell people
it helps if it's not your local city. And I remember
fully in leather, boots on, cap on, in the hotel
room. Right, I'm going to stay in now. I don't
want to go out. And suddenly the fear came. And
I did not want to go out. I thought, this is
stupid. Then I went out and then suddenly I wasn't
scared anymore. Either people smiled or they
looked straightforward and ignored you. And I
love that power. Suddenly you mattered enough
that you didn't exist anymore. Like, oh my God.
Most people assume you're a biker until you put
your mule cap on and then they know. So when
I walked in here, that mule cap was underneath
my arm. That way that you're just a biker until
you put the mule cap on you. And then suddenly
it's like, oh, oh, you're one of those. There
was a moment actually at Newcastle Leather Weekend
where we were all out on the quayside at the
market. And someone walked past us and went,
they must be a bike gang. Did that make you feel
like a proper badass? Tiny bit. And how about
you, T? What sort of drew you into, I guess there's
two for you, the kink scene and then now finding
leather specifically. Yeah, so I came to the
kink scene about 10 years ago just to find people
into the same weird stuff I was into, like I
think a lot of us do. And then one of those things
I became into, rather than very sort of generic
service submission and just, I will make your
shoes nice and clean before you go out tonight,
which is a lovely thing in its own right, I'm
not going to detract from that, was actually
becoming interested in boot blacking. which is
a whole distinct, different thing. And I went,
well, not a lot of people are doing this on the
fetish scene. I know it's starting to pick up
a bit of traction now and more people are being
interested. So I need to find the experts. So
I googled Newcastle leather scene and that's
how I found Newcastle Leather Men. So I sent
Duncan a message just being like, you know, I'm
not your stereotypical leather man. I'm really
interested in boot blacking. I want to learn.
I want to contribute. Can I come along? And he
was just like, yes, see you next Friday. Amazing.
We were actively looking for as well. Because
again, we're a fairly new group. So we're only
four years old. The oldest active group is London
Leather and they're 50, they're about 51, 52
years old now. So we're fairly new, but a lot
of groups actually started up after COVID as
well, where basically we're a much bigger scene
and we're probably equal to what would have been
in the 70s or early 80s now as well. But the
boot blacking community is growing more and more
in importance and Providence as well, where they
are seen as very important. So to the point of
last year, the prize fund and the budget for
international boot black. is the same as international
leather now so there's that recognition where
a few years ago there was an instance where where
basically boot blacks were forgotten about And
like, oh, we'll put them in a corridor. And like,
you know, that was outrageous. And ever since
then, it's felt like, you know, to prominence.
If you go to any festival as well, like Folsom,
you'll find the queues for the boot plaques as
well, dark clubs and everything like that. So
they are a real valuable and important part of
the community. And we look to them to mentor
us as well, you know, that they can often give
us advice on how to look after something. And
it's not just about looking after our booths,
it's looking after our leather and being part
of a greater, bigger community as well. So it
is very important. amazing yeah because this
is this is my favorite type of episode to do
because i don't know very much I have approximate
knowledge of the leather community and approximate
knowledge of boot blacking. So I'm going to learn
a bunch of stuff today. Do you want to just tell
us a little bit about what the leather community
is and a little bit more about Newcastle Leather
Men as well? Okay, yeah. Well, I'll try to. So
some of this might be from my point of view and
some might be history, and I hope I've got some
of the names and dates and things right as well.
But the leather community is the oldest subsection
of the gay community, or the oldest organised.
It started off after World War II, and it comes
from a lot of people being away for the first
time and being in all -male environments as well.
So from that came a liking of uniform, being
used to being in uniform, and leather was involved
as well. Both in America, it mainly comes from
as well, and then also in Europe, and it kind
of evolved at the same time and went in slightly
different directions and slightly different styles.
Once it came to the 50s, one of the easiest ways
to be gay and be in a community was to be in
a bike gang. And nobody would think anything
of a load of men going away together, dressed
in leather on motorbikes. Wouldn't think anything
of it at all. And from that, the almost governing
body, the ECMC... which is the European Confederation
of Motorcycle Clubs, and that's the European
branch of it. There was an American side of it
as well. So before the internet and everything
like that, it was fan clubs that could write
to each other and let know what was going on.
So once it came to the 60s, it got more organised.
So the uniforms became stylised as well. Fan
clubs like Bluff, and you'll often hear that,
which is the Breaches and Uniform Fan Club. So
when you see somebody in complete full leather
with the mule cap and everything, that is known
as Bluff. or full cow we call it as well sometimes
as well so it's very stylized very uniform from
the boots through to like like the the traditional
cap but during the 50s like many things that
some things became mainstream as well so it's
also seen as rebellious as well so you've got
rebel that cause yes you know borrowing some
other things as well from it and even through
to like the 70s where you've got the village
people as well so there's the stereotype there
as well so quite often Um, if I'm ever out, you'll
hear people singing and YMCA or shouting out
something or whatever. And then we've got like
a little bingo tip card. So if somebody shouts
out like, you know, Hitler or whatever, like,
right, thank you for that. I can take that. Some
of the things YMCA can do that as well. But basically,
from that, it became quite an organized community.
So there is the Leather Archives in Chicago,
and Chicago is seen as the spiritual home for
leather. And in fact, this weekend coming up
is International Mr. Leather. So a number of
friends of mine are actually entering it. So
basically, I shouldn't call it a big beauty pageant
because I'll get told off for doing that. But
basically, to be at that, you already have to
have had a title. So Newcastle Leathermen do
not have a title. But Leather Scotland are introducing
a title for this year. So basically Leatherman
Cymru, so Wales has got a title. Leatherman London
has got a title as well. Leatherman Ireland have
got Mr. Leather Dublin as well. So a game where
basically that you can put yourself forward for
it. You're judged on what you've done for the
community, what you plan to do, what you look
like, basically. And you look like a community
leader. So it's not just about what you look
like. And that comes down to charity work and
things like that. So this was really in its high
in the 70s and early 80s. Then the AIDS crisis
came along. So what we found is that the AIDS
crisis did decimate the leather community because
basically sexually we did a lot more. We put
ourselves out there more. So we were more susceptible
as well. Also, the greater gay community also.
turned on us as well and saw us as as basically
causing a lot of problems also because we're
more visible as well sometimes the gay community
doesn't want visibility they want normality sometimes
as well so again um we were blamed for the aids
crisis in some point I'm being very generalistic
there. But also what happened there was that
because it decimated our community, we were one
of the communities that also the forefront of
safe sex messaging and things like that and looking
after and buddying as well. Because my understanding
is that's where the term safe, sane, consensual
started was where the communities during the
AIDS crisis sort of realised there needed to
be like a structure and an agreed approach to
preventing transmission primarily more than some
of the risks that we think of relating to BDSM
now. It was more about, OK, so whatever. kind
of play you're doing the first thing you think
about is transmission risk and that's where that
idea sort of came into to both curtail some of
the spread and also some of the kind of nihilistic
self -destructive behavior that that people were
doing if they kind of felt like nothing mattered
they were taking more risks yeah so the the community
still did survive and exist but it kind of got
smaller it's always been there but it was kind
of seen as uncool or whatever or something very
old -fashioned and then covid came along and
then suddenly we discovered you know back to
our roots. And if we always wanted to do it,
and you know, do you know what? We could not
be here next year. We don't know what's happening
with COVID. So a lot of people took risks and
did things they wouldn't normally do. And I was
one of those. So again, full circle. So then
because we had this bond online with people and
people were talking to each other, and there's
a lot more communication as well within the love
community and the bond community. And again,
like you said, with consent and things like that.
So we would better communicate. So I'm not saying
we're perfect. And somebody might disagree with
me or what I'm saying as well. But basically
that I just found a kinder community that understood
and listened more. And then from that, you know,
you make friends and it's easier to talk to each
other. So it's quite amazing that I probably
am friends with people that I wouldn't have been
if it wasn't for leather. And it's come to the
point now that I've got leather friends that
we talk about gardening. Or people would be very
disappointed if they listened in. They assume
we're talking about fisting or bonding or something
like that. And sometimes we are, but it's mainly
about quiche and kittens, we always say. We forget
we're in leather and it's the social element
as well. So we were out last night, weren't we,
at the Leather Social. And again, there's a real
mix of people there and people that probably
wouldn't give me the time of day if it wasn't
for the leather starting it off as well. It gives
you a common starting point, something that you
share and then you find the rest of the things.
And sometimes the gay scene can be seen as a
bit unfriendly. If you don't go out with friends
and you go out there maybe because you want to
meet somebody or take somebody home, whatever,
it's that whole thing all night of, like, cat
and mouse and, like, you know, am I, you know,
going to pull somebody? The leather social, again,
this is not a sexual thing that we've got. It's
a social. So basically people can meet up together.
And the thing they've got in common is that we
like or wear leather. And, again, that's something
that I've got to point out as well is that just
because we're called Newcastle Leather Men, Always
when I give a card, I ignore the pronouns. We're,
you know, we're open to everybody as well. And
T, you were our first member as well. So I was
very excited by that as well. So one of the downsides
with the community is it's largely white male.
And there are clubs and, like, Leather Dykes.
Again, people are joining together more. There's
Proteus as well, which is the trans side of it.
And Leather Dykes has always been very trans
-inclusive. Again, it comes from being seen as
an... that was a bit more of an outcast or you're
more willing to so that basically is our community
is quite big and quite fluid overall yeah that's
definitely what i've heard is the sort of perception
of it is from the outside people see it as very
much this is for men and then there's a couple
of smaller groups of women and that's it but
then the people i know who've engaged with it
are always like yeah vast majority of the time
people are really trans inclusive willing to
sort of accept non -binary people into wherever
they feel like they best fit things like that
which is is great and i know t you've had a really
positive experience with that and we're really
excited that as a non -binary person you were
allowed yeah you get some of my excited messages
yeah Oh, well, everyone listening to this can't
see me. I'm quite a femme presenting non -binary
person. So initially I was a little concerned
that I would be co -opting a space that wasn't
built for me, which is never something that you
want to do intentionally. And I've never been
made to feel unwelcome. I've never been made
to feel different. You know, I've just been kind
of folded in from day one. They were just like,
we've got boot blacks now. This is amazing. Thank
you. My gender and anatomy is utterly irrelevant
to everyone there, which is amazing. I suppose
there's a couple of things for me, because it
sounds from what you're saying about the value
from the leather community is primarily a social
thing. I suppose my uneducated perception of
it, especially thinking about the history that
you described, is that there's an element of
it which is quite protocol -driven and slightly
hierarchical. Is that still part of it? Yes and
no. That is classed as what's called old guard.
Right. So old guard is things like you can't
buy a meal cap for yourself. You've got to earn
it and it's going to be given to you. Right.
And then you go from like a sub to a master or
a boy to a sir. So what I did gloss over, which
is probably a big part of this, especially for
your podcast as well, is that side of it as well.
So the BDSM, the power play and things like that,
which was very much part of it as well. So Old
Guard was basically that you get introduced,
you get given leather or you earn leather, you
earn your keep basically as well. So there's
the leather handbook, which has been around since
the 70s, still available from Amazon and all
good bookshops. And again, that was the time
where it was very male orientated. You know,
you do not have coloured leather. You do not
do this, you know that. You've got to be in this
kind of way. You wear your Sam Brown belt in
a certain way. Yeah. there's new guard so basically
nowadays that the say like if you join um a club
like bluff bluff is a great club some people
see it as um quite exclusive one downside of
bluff one downside of it is it is for for men
at the moment women are not admitting to it where
where basically you have to send a picture of
yourself in a uniform yeah um which is form of
leather or leather and cloth you get given a
number and then that's your bluff number as well
so if you look on instagram if i leather men
and they'll have um a bluff number i'm fighting
the bio sometimes so i'm 599 if you google me
or or look it up um and again it's one way of
identifying each other with it as well but not
everyone joins that some people say think no
you don't need that i can be my own person as
well and many people are so that's where new
guard comes in so basically if you want to wear
pink leather you can If you want to wear green
leather, you can. If you want to mix it up, you
can. If you want to buy your own mule cap, you
can. It's your fetish. It's what you want to
do. And it's how you want to be. So basically,
so Old Guard does have some romanticism and a
lot of people like that as well. And I'll dip
in and out of it as well. But I'll just dip in
and out. It doesn't rule my life. And for that
reason, the Newcastle Leathermen does not have
a uniform policy or a rule. So there'll be some
socials that you won't be admitted unless you're
fully in leather. And that's not us. It excludes
people. It could be for whatever reason that
you don't want to be out in leather. You don't
own leather. You like leather wrong and want
to be in it. But then that then excludes you.
Because it's quite an expensive thing to buy,
isn't it? It is. That's why I've got to be careful
because my partner could be listening in to this
podcast. Yes, I found a receipt the other day.
Apparently I told a little white lie about how
much something costs. It does creep up on you.
But the rule of thumb there is don't spend more
than you can afford and start off with something
you want. Leather lasts a lifetime if it's looked
after. So this jacket was actually given to me
and it's probably from the 70s or the 80s. And
it's still with us. The cap was given to me as
well. And I gave somebody else another cap. And
then this is probably at least 30, 40 years old
as well. They last. Boots are secondhand as well
from eBay. They weren't cheap, but again, I had
the money in my pocket and it's what I wanted.
The jeans are also secondhand as well. So there's
a secondhand marketplace called Second Skin where
a lot of kinksters sell. Sometimes you get a
bargain, these were. Sometimes you want something
specific as well. And you can buy new as well.
Leather is one of those things is that you can
borrow it as well. And the community has also
got, slightly back to the old guard, is a gifting
as well. So people gave me things when I started.
I give people things when I start as well. And
I found a lot of short leather guys in the world
as well. So we do swap and borrow each other's
clothes. So again, it's easy to say, but don't
spend more than you have to. And then bit by
bit, you blink and before you know it, you've
got 17 million jackets that you don't have to
pinch your own anymore. It's one of the reasons
bootblacks are so valued by the community is
because we're helping you maintain that investment
in your gear. We're helping it last longer and
we're helping you. carry those memories of people
who have given you that leather who have worn
it before you like that's a legacy as much as
anything else yeah it's definitely something
you'd want to take good care of it reminds me
of i i um briefly dated someone who had a latex
fetish and it seems like there's a very similar
sort of thing there where it's a huge investment
it can absolutely drain all of your savings away
and taking care of it is so important and i know
that that person spent a lot of their time and
money in maintaining their collection definitely
so you mentioned newcastle lesman a couple of
times yes um Tell us about that, and you're involved
in that. Okay, so I was on a well -known app,
which should remain nameless, that I mainly just
socialise on. And another person just answered,
and we were chatting, and it's got leather in
my likes, and we met for a coffee. And then we
met for another coffee a week later, and then
he brought his laptop round, because we had talked
about it. I'm on another site called Recon, which
is like a fetish dating app or a fetish. I use
it like Facebook, to be honest. So a lot of my
friends are on that. I've always wanted to start
up something up here. So as you can hear, I'm
not a Geordie. I've been up here since 2000.
And it's something I've wanted to start up for
a long time and talk to people out there that
I'd never met, but were interested in something.
And it just took somebody to start it off. So
me and my friend just, okay, design the logo.
We decided on a launch day. We had all the social
media set up and we just did it. We showed up
at a local bar. We didn't ask. Right. Because
what I often find is that sometimes if you ask
bars and things, they say no because they don't
want to be part of it. That's my perception.
Again, it's often a false perception, but sometimes
I've heard of other clubs as well that ask to
be at a bar and they're like, no, we don't want
you here. Right. So we just turned up and it
was like four people the first month, six the
next, eight, back to six again because it was
Easter. But one thing we always wanted to make
sure is that if we say we're going to meet up
somewhere, we will. And even if it's like Christmas
Eve or Christmas Day, if our meet fell on that
day, you never know who's going to turn up. And
to be honest with you, whenever we've done it,
there's been one new person. And I'd hate us
not to be there for that one person that was
brave enough to put leather on or to meet. So
we're also in a mixed environment as well. So
that's what we wanted to be as well. So we didn't
want it to be exclusive. We wanted to be proud.
And on view as well, but interact. So going a
step back. So me and my friend then went on social
media and just said, right, we're here. Who wants
to come? Yeah. So now we regularly get 15 to
30 people coming as well. We often get visitors
from other areas coming up to us as well. So
I've already put pictures on social media out
there. And again, I'm careful to know who wants
to be in social media or not. So quite often
the backgrounds are blurry. You can't see who's
in it. unless i'm at the forefront or whatever
like that um yeah i think my favorite one is
the one where i've just got an emoji for a face
yeah it's such a good picture i think you were
you were boot backing me as well so like there
you go smiley emoji on top of it and then and
then Bender boots as well. That's what I do with
Mix when I post them on my public socials because
they're a much more private person than me. Obviously,
happy to have their voice on the podcast, but
not their face all over Instagram and TikTok.
So if I'm sharing a picture of them, I always
put the smiling purple devil emoji over their
face. That's become probably what people most
think of you as now. You're trying to get me
to buy an actual smiling devil emoji mask or
something, aren't you? Yes, yes. So from there,
we hosted our first leather weekend, which we
thought, oh, maybe 20 people will attend. We
sold nearly 60 tickets for it. We sold out the
restaurant as well. Right. We had... um uk boot
black 2025 visit us we had mr leather europe
visit us as well from ireland right and we attracted
people from all over the country and it did put
newcastle on the map because that's something
i'm very passionate about is making the northeast
a kinkier place and we are but again that there's
this there's manchester there's london there's
a lot of other cities around what's wrong with
the northeast as well Our hotels are a lot cheaper.
You know, the people are friendly. And again,
it's great. So it showcased. So we're starting
planning next year and already had a lot of interest
in people wanting to come across. So that did
touch our hearts as well. but we are in communication
with most of the other clubs in the UK and Ireland
as well so that's something as well when it comes
to communication that we do talk to each other
so our dates don't clash if we've got like a
I think we had a safeguarding issue in another
club and all the clubs got together and we actually
did a zoom together to discuss and we strengthened
up our codes of conduct to make sure it doesn't
happen again or anything like that so yeah I'm
from a retail background originally, so we have
a little shop and I'm constantly designing something
new and selling something new just to get club
funds in as well. And is it primarily a social
thing for the group or are there kind of community
-facing things that you do as well? We do communicate.
So we have been fundraising. There's things we
plan to do later on in the year, some more fundraising.
We go to the theatre. We do walks. We visit other
clubs. This weekend, I attended Torre Molinos
Fetish Weekend as well. Again, representing the
club with another member as well. Weekend before
I was in Dublin. Between work and... I've got
no time for myself. But again, something to support
another club where it's their sixth birthday.
So I just appeared. Yeah. You know, it's actually
a £31 return as he thinks about, you know, like
not booking a hotel and just sleeping in the
airport on the way back. I didn't have to sleep
in the airport in the end. Somebody offered me
an airbed in their living room as well. But they
were fun things to do. And it's keeping the community
alive. And it's a much bigger community than
just us in the northeast as well. So it is very
important. And what do you, just listening to
the way that you talk, it's obviously really
important to you and you get a lot out of it.
What are the things that you've kind of got from
being part of that and leading that group? It's
friendship. I keep saying community. It's like
community bingo. You know how many times I say
community before they shout house. It is, again,
it's a sense of importance. I don't want that
to sound arrogant either. But before I became
a Leatherman and part of the community, kind
of like I was kind of like drifting along. I
didn't feel I was doing a lot in the gay community.
And to a point, I didn't feel that I really...
was part of the gay community. I'm with a partner
that's a non -kinkster as well. And the gay community
and, you know, the bars and things didn't hold
a lot for us. You know, overpriced drinks, go
there, you don't meet any friends or whatever.
We're not there to cruise or pull. So like, okay,
let's go home after spending like a million pounds
on drinks. So again, so it got me more political
as well. With a lot what's happening to the trans
community at the moment. Yeah. Again, if we stand
by and do nothing, then bad things happen. And
like we keep saying, once they start going over
one part of the community, what's next? Who are
they going to get? So that's something that we're
very passionate about as well. For me personally,
it's got me more social. It's got me more political.
So I didn't really go to prides. Now, any excuse
to dress up in leather and wave a flag. And sometimes
we're not always welcome because, again, we...
You know, that they're like normal things. You
know, like if you're adopting children and it
normalises it. Yeah. And sometimes, you know,
we often think it's our imagination, but quite
often I think there was one pride, in fact two
prides, where they asked all the kid community
to march at the front. Brilliant, they marched
at the front. In all the videos and that, it
didn't appear because we were all at the front
and it was cut out. It's easy to cut out and
you get the boxes and things. Is it our imagination?
We like to think it is, but it isn't. But there
you go. But that's my opinion, my personal opinion.
I remember the first Pride I met you. You might
not remember because I looked super different
then. But it was like four years ago, Newcastle
Pride. And they'd got a sign outside the health
and welfare zone saying no fetish were allowed.
And I made a giant fuss and was messaging the
guy who organised Pride and making trouble for
him. Oh, I remember that now. Do you know what?
I hesitated for one second before going and I
just went in. Yeah. Yeah. And you think, what?
Yeah. Yeah. I had nothing else to change into
and I was signed up for a volunteering slot.
So I was in there in latex. But again, they didn't
stop us. There was nobody to police it. Yeah.
But because there's always that debate of does
fetish revolve pride? And hell yes, it does.
And the one thing I always say to people is,
and it's the first time I saw. a rubber man or
a leather man or a leather woman or was that
a pride? And not being funny, people love us
as well. Yeah. People want to see us. Again,
you know, the pups, the leather guys, the rubber
guys. And again, it is a political statement
as well of going out in that as well. And you
don't give a damn. I nearly swore then. You can
definitely swear on this podcast. It is a very
adult podcast. And I have to say, I've only been
to a... A couple of prides, because I think there's
a little bit of that in me as well about being
part of the queer community and being part of
the kink community, but not being particularly
active in it, kind of feeling like I should do
more and, you know, kind of using the privilege
that comes with looking like this sort of thing
to do more. But I will also say at both of the
prides I've been to, one of the happiest memories
I have is sitting in Wetherspoons and seeing
members of the Newcastle Leathermen just getting
ready for pride in all of their leather, looking
really... absolutely amazing and just being really
proud of it as well it just makes me so happy
yeah to see that for exactly that reason because
if the leather community doesn't belong at pride
then who the fuck does you know it's that sort
of thing for me yeah and i also recognize that
not everyone can yeah as well so again i kind
of do it for them so it does give people a lot
of confidence to see it normalized yeah if i
can use that yeah horrible word normal but there
you go So my only experience of this kind of
community is through what people just call the
kink scene or the kink community as if it's the
only one and I know T that that has been for
a lot of your experience that's been the same
for you. Have you found that there are a lot
of differences between the kink scene and leather
communities? I'd say there are differences but
they're more kind of stylistic and quite surface
level. On the outside, the communities look very
different. The leather scene is very out and
proud. It's very public. A lot of us use our
first names. I use my first name on the leather
scene, whereas the FetLife community, as I tend
to compartmentalise the two in my head now, because
people also say the kink scene about aspects
of the leather community and it stops me getting
confused about who's going where and who's doing
what. The FetLife community... I don't want to
say we're secretive because that's not the right
word, but there is definitely a layer of not
exposing our community to the general vanilla
population. Yeah. So munchies tend to run in
private spaces. Events tend to happen in private
venues. And you don't really get into mingling
with the wider queer scene. Yeah. No, that makes
sense. And I definitely noticed that as well.
And it's interesting you mentioned, obviously,
you think of that community as being like the
fet life scene. Do people from the leather community
tend not to use FetLife much? Because I kind
of assumed everyone would end up there at some
point. A lot of people I meet just aren't on
FetLife. Yeah. I get the same when I trade at
kink markets as well. People ask about events
locally and I'll go, oh, yeah, sure, you can
look on FetLife. And they go, on what? And I
have to kind of unlearn that everyone is on it
mentality. Yeah. Because on the gay scene, you've
got entirely separate rope events and play events
and all of these other things. There was a guy
who came in 2022, I think, to give a talk at
the Playmunch and he was from the leather scene
in Minnesota. So he'd been to the Eagle the night
before, which is like the big, like the bar in
Newcastle. And then he'd come to the Playmunch
the next day to give a talk and he was like,
well, they're all there and you're all here and
you don't know about them and they don't know
about you. That in a nutshell, really. Yeah.
It's fascinating because there's definitely an
attitude I've found of people who, if you're
not on FetLife and if you're not going to your
local munch and if you haven't been seen playing
at your local play event, like you're not really
kinky, like you're still a newbie, you're still
figuring it out. We don't know you. We don't
trust you. That. Get your endorsements on LinkedIn
first. Yes. Very that. How have you found that
sort of cultural difference between the two?
Or is there an equivalent in leather? So I'm
still fairly new. So take what I say with a pinch
of salt. But I find in my personal experience,
people take me at face value. People trust me
to be honest about my skills. People trust me
to go, actually, that is a massive divot in that
boot. And I can't fix it without making it worse
rather than just going for it and causing a disaster.
And, you know, I take those people at face value.
So if they say, you know, I want this done to
my jacket and just a bit of a cleaner condition,
I'm not going to expect anything more in either
of it. That makes sense. Because I think that's
something that... that we've talked about a couple
of times on the podcast that there is people
often think that the community they're in is
the kink community and and that nothing else
exists and are a little suspicious of anyone
who claims to have experience and knowledge from
outside that but i know when we had um ariel
anderson on she was talking about how there is
very much like a model and photographer community
that a lot of them don't go to munches they don't
go to play events but they all know each other
and they all kind of vet on that basis and know
people's reputation on that basis and i think
The thing that I keep coming back to is everyone
needs some kind of community and connection,
like feeling like you're different from everyone
else and not having connection to others who
feel the same way is really hard. But those connections
don't always have to look the same for other
people. They can be whatever makes the most sense
to you. Yeah, I think specifically in the boot
camp community, your reputation is a lot more
tangible than in other aspects because people
see what you do, they see the result of what
you do, and it's right there. Yeah. You know,
you were describing before about some of the
events that you run. And I was really struck
by something you said about kind of some of the
bars and the clubs don't want you there sometimes.
I think that's something that we've kind of talked
about and experienced within kind of organizing
munchies. The struggle for venues is hard. The
different approaches to what people say to the
venue. And you end up in this really weird situation
where if anyone asks you going to a gaming club.
And it's like, okay, well, I know nothing about
gaming. So if anybody challenges me, I'm going
to be talking about Monopoly. And for a community
that values honesty so highly, it feels like
a huge contradiction to me that we're going to
disregard the consent of the venue owners to
decide what happens in their space. Yeah, yeah.
I will always run an event with the complete
understanding of the venue for that reason. Yeah.
Also, because I was once at a different event
and someone who wasn't an attendee had managed
to make their way in, walked up to me at the
bar and just said, are you all swingers like
i just went i had no idea what to say whereas
if people attending other things i run know it's
okay to say the staff you know we're a life drawing
group we're a rope group any of this then it
just takes all of that pressure off yeah because
the events that you run are quite visible aren't
they i mean yeah you talked about the um weekend
which i think was a very fancy restaurant it
was we did tell them what we who we were a few
days before when we paid the deposit and everything
like that. It was all done and dusted. And do
you know what? We didn't need to worry. And basically
the meal hadn't even ended and they said, you
know, when are you next here? Which is what we
wanted to hear. And they were great. There's
another venue that we use for brunches quite
regularly. And again, after the first time of
us just, you know, like, you know, 20 -level
guys setting it up. And it was like, oh, okay.
And the next time they didn't ask for a deposit
and it was all fine. To be fair, I've not had
any issues in Newcastle with us. I've heard of
other venues and other places. So we were looking
for somewhere for a cigar social. Right. And
we were just, like, you know, just sending emails
out and saying, OK, you've got an outdoor space,
you know, would we be able to use it for a cigar
social? And it was all fine until we said who
we were. And then suddenly... we didn't get any
replies or anything like that yeah yeah yeah
but another venue was oh yep yep you're very
welcome so it just depends and these weren't
necessarily gay venues either but again it's
just how how people perceive things as well or
or the unknown that we're just trying to yeah
almost normalize ourselves if we can be that
word again yes and you almost want it to happen
that kind of way around don't you because i think
part of the You mentioned the consent of the
venue earlier on. Part of the challenge with
keeping things secret is if the secret goes out,
that causes you bigger problems in the future,
whereas your approach seems to be going to a
venue, this is who we are, this is what we want
to do. And it's almost better if they say no,
because at least you know then you're in a space
where you're welcome, and that gives the people
who come along a little bit more comfort and
safety, I suppose. There's a security. From a
host perspective as well, of knowing that your
event can't be outed to the venue. Because I
can't picture anything worse than mid -event,
suddenly an angry bar manager comes up to me
and says, right, all 30 of you have got to leave.
Yeah, absolutely. If I might jump in as well
as a lurker who happens to be sitting in the
same room. Amazing. For anyone who is surprised
at the lurker, this is V, who is mostly here
just to hang out, but is going to join in now.
Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about
the normality within a certain community. The
leather scene is very open. It's, as I understand
it, always been kind of founded to be quite open.
Whereas the FetLife scene, as T says, is very
secretive. It's got its very definitive way of
doing things and it will stick to that and just
kind of get that staying. And yeah, that was
before the club was formed, that there was definitely
guys and gals that played in leather. There's
definitely a lot of people that play in rubber.
And again, but there was no outlet for them.
So, you know, they would think nothing of travelling
to Berlin for a leather event or Manchester for
a rubber event. Yeah. And sometimes when I say
to people, sometimes it's easier in a different
city or town the first time you do it than in
your hometown. But there is a lot of people out
there that show something. So there's a club
night called DILF. I don't know if it's called
DILF, though, because it's mostly full of younger
disco buddies. Occasionally some old people like
me that go to it. Like DILFs in training, mainly.
When it came to Newcastle, indeed. But suddenly
there was like, you know, like... People in harnesses
and jockstraps. And I'd only seen that in Darklands
before in Antwerp. Or you'd see it in San Francisco.
Suddenly, Newcastle was kinky. Yeah, yeah. It
was great to see that as well. And then suddenly,
they just disappeared. And like, you know, well,
then, you know, they're in a leather jockstrap.
But where are they normally? And again, people
come from around. And it is great to see that.
in Newcastle at long last as well. And other
things have come from that. I think one thing
we do need is more inclusivity. It is still very
much male dominated where DILF is a male only
space. And that's something that going back to
something that struck me with boot blacking is
boot blacking is probably one of the most equal
parts of the community where it isn't a Mr. Boot
Black. It is boot black. And Wookiee won it two
years ago. There's been many non -binary winners
of it. There's trans, like international bootblacks
as well, trans, non -binary, and they're just
ahead of the game, is what I'd say as well. So
like London Leather Dykes as well, you know,
is run by somebody that is a very formidable
bootblack. I think because... Boot blacking in
its own thing is like a slightly newer scene.
We don't have as much of the old guard baggage
because we don't have an old guard. And that's
it. And I think me personally, I look towards
that. It's like one degree of separation where
we both know people. And, you know, I was in
Dublin and your name came up. Oh, gosh. The fear.
It's all good. It's all good. You're being perceived
internationally now. No, it is. It's all good.
You mock as if you don't get that terror when
you realise there's people listening to this
all over the world. If you're listening from
really far away, comment and freak us out. Yes,
please do. Thanks. Thanks for that. How, with
the Newcastle Leathermen and the leather community
being more kind of open and visible, how can
you kind of support people who are new to it
who might be a little bit... Because there is
that crossover, I suppose, isn't there? That
fear of if you're entering a space for the first
time or entering a community for the first time,
that fear of being perceived, that fear of being
hated and the potential social impact that it
might. One thing that sometimes is perceived
about the love community is that we're quite
arrogant and we're quite clicky. I'm not saying
that doesn't happen. But when people are coming
into it and they suddenly think, and I felt the
same as well, is that would I be welcome? I've
not done it for very long. My park is not kinky.
And then all these things and all these people
have told me the same thing. And they might have
10 ,000 followers on Instagram, be really a famous
leather person. But again, everyone feels the
same. has imposter syndrome as well they think
oh god what am i doing so when someone's getting
into so my dms are open so i'm on instagram um
i'm back up 761 i just thought of that name and
then it stuck so so it is it is a private instagram
but if if i see that you're a kinkster or all
my dms are open so if you message me and i've
met some some great friends some people that
weren't leather people And now they love people
with 10 ,000 followers or whatever and quite
well known, like the UK and Europe or whatever
like that. And it's great giving somebody the
same start that I was given. When it comes to
us, we're very much aware that people might be
in the bar that are there for us, but too frightened
to go. So I usually do a thing, oh, I've got
my stickers. And I go around and say who I am,
what we're doing. Do you want a sticker? Are
you here for us? And quite often you do find
that somebody is, but they're just too... shy
to come across or too nervous right you've got
that icebreaker as well um across our social
media as well we do a mentoring system so we'll
meet people outside we met people at their hotel
rooms and brought them across and i've met people
for coffee separately not in leather and and
like you know that i'm not going to eat you or
anything like that yeah not on a thursday anyway
but and again and it's that part of it as well
yeah so so again that that that We try. We don't
always get it right, but we do try and nurture.
And it's remembering what came before. Yeah.
So there is a very grand person. He's 90 this
year. And he's really looked after us. And he's
patron of the ECMC as well. So Daddy Ian. And
he's taken an active interest in us. You know,
he's one of those legendary people. He lives
in Manchester. And when you see him out, basically
he's got so much knowledge about the community.
And he knows so many people as well. So, again,
I think that we had a question about Newcastle
and he didn't know the answer, but he got his
iPad out, started dutying of it. Yeah. message
were coming back and he likes what we're doing
as well so obviously that we're quite visible
on social media but he loves it when we go to
the theatre and we we sometimes are in a bit
of leather we went to the rocky horror show nobody
noticed us we're trying to normalize it and and
say that that you know it we're a community as
well i think that we we come back a few we've
come back a few times to the idea of normalization
and it's so important not because i personally
have any desire to be normal in my life never
have born weird but like no community no group
no person has achieved acceptance and respect
and equality without being visible like visibility
can very much be a double -edged sword and come
with a lot of risk but it is the only way to
improve the situation and it's always a frustration
of mine that it feels like almost as if the biggest
opponent of kink being destigmatized is often
other kinky people because not only do they not
want to come out which is completely valid but
they often don't want other people to either
and sort of treat it as like a risk of guilt
by association like my my loud mouth and visible
collar is going to cause problems for them and
it's it seems like you guys have really got it
right from my perspective yeah i'll say i have
lost the fear i'm not gonna lie i just i just
don't you know when people are like looking at
me or whatever i'm talking to them like you know
And I'm talking in an open mouth. Oh, yeah, I've
been wearing leather. I forgot that. Again, it's
just normal. But that comes down to prides and
things like that and people wanting to come over
to you. And to be honest with you, we are vain
creatures as well. We haven't spent all this
money on it not to have pictures taken of us.
Yeah. And again, so you usually find that, you
know, you will stop for a photo with people or
whatever and they just want that. So, yeah, one
of my favourites is two ladies holding on to
me. And it was at Durham. It's like, you smell
like new shoes. It is so much fun. I have never,
I've been going to Pride since, I think, 2009
might have been my first Pride. I had never seen
myself in any photos from a Pride other than
the ones I'd taken until last year. I went wearing
a pig hood with a nose hook in and I was in so
many pictures all over social media. Everyone
wanted the pig. It was great. You're popular.
Yeah. My nose was in pain for a while, though,
having a nose hook in for about six hours straight.
It was fine at the time because I had two bottles
of wine as well, but the next day... And I remember
asking you through the day, like, are you sure
you're okay? Do you want to take it out and have
a bit of a rest? No, no, it's fine. It's fine.
I'm having a good time. Yeah. And then we woke
up and I saw you in the infested cupboard the
next day and you were suffering a little bit.
Yeah. So this is probably going to be mainly
all about you, T, because we're going to talk
about some boot blacking. Do you want to first
tell us what boot blacking is? I feel like some
of the clue is in the name, but I would like
to hear more. Yes, so boot blacking originally
came from shoeshiners. So in the olden days,
we didn't have indoor plumbing. The streets were
disgusting, but everyone still wanted clean shoes.
So you would see a shoeshine boy or a boot black
on basically every street corner. These later
moved into barbers, especially in America. And
that was when the term boot black really took
off, I think. And they would actually have competitions.
So even back then, there was an element of this
is a skill we have and something that you can
be incredibly good at. So they would have competitions
in these barbershops for who was the boot black
for that particular city, which is something
that we now do. We have the UK boot blacks and
we have the title holders around the world. On
the scene, it's more, I think, an act of service.
a community thing than an act of play a lot of
the time so i will happily shine shoes for a
person i've never met before because we've communicated
what our expectations are ahead of time and what
i'm there for is to keep their gear in good condition
to keep it looking its best to keep them looking
their best and you know maybe just give a break
in like a quite noisy hectic event a lot of people
just enjoy having 20 minutes to just sit down
and be gently fussed over yeah you know Club
events can be quite loud, they're very bright,
they can be a bit much. And just being able to
take a little break while still being a part
of the night is really valuable to some people.
Yeah, I can imagine that. What got you into that?
Because it is, as you say, it's starting to become
a little bit more popular now, but it is still
quite a niche one, isn't it? Yeah, so when I
was growing up, I was a sea cadet. So I got really
good at mirror shining shoes because that was
just a thing that we did. And that was, for the
longest time, just another thing in my service
submission toolbox. So I could sit in front of
a movie and make my Dom's boots really shiny
before he goes out for the night. And then I
started finding more and more about boot blacking
online. There's been quite a few workshops. There's
a boot black munch in Birmingham that I went
to, which really opened my eyes and pushed all
the happy buttons in my brain. And I went, oh,
there's actually more to this than just one act
of service. So that was when I started exploring
more, looking into the culture, the scene, reaching
out to Newcastle Leathermen and, you know, actually
bootblacking at the socials. Yeah, that's amazing.
You said it's something that is often very much
an act of service rather than play. I know for
me, service can sometimes feel like it sort of
taps into the kind of flow state, productive,
useful brain more than the... sexy hot this is
super fun as a kink brain it kind of sits in
a different place is bootblacking like that for
you or can it cross over into more kind of intimate
feelings for me at the socials it's definitely
very much that space um it can cross over if
i'm doing something more private with someone
i have a connection with and i know for some
people it is just more of an open thing um i
would say if anything i'm probably a little more
prudish than some bootblacks i know um you know
a lot of people will be more open to maybe exploring
a connection on the night at the stand than i
might particularly be yeah it's very much a personal
choice it's like rope or impact or any other
kink there's no this is how you must do it and
this is what you must get from it it's just about
what brings you and the other person you're with
joy yeah it's something that I think it's always
so personal with any kink, isn't it? Whether
it fits in the sort of sexual box, the non -sexual
but still very intimate box, or the this is just
a fun, weird hobby that I have. Yeah. There's
a whole sort of spectrum there. But I know when
I talk about having a service kink, people are
often like, so you're like super horny doing
the washing up. And it's like, no, that doesn't.
That doesn't sit in that box. Nothing is hotter
than unplugging the box. But then if Mix makes
me clean the entire house wearing a bikini and
verbally degrades me for the room not being clean
enough while I'm doing it, then it goes back
in the sexy box. It's one of those things where
context and individual can both make a big impact,
I think. 100%. And I'd say bootblacking for me
comes from the same place. Yeah. And what do
you most get from it? Is it... just like any
other service or has it gone beyond that now
and become its own thing for you i think it's
very much become its own thing it's community
i know i'm just adding another one to the community
bingo um having like a place and a role in newcastle
leatherman has been something that's really valuable
to me um especially as someone who was not a
man turning up and knowing what my position is
in the group just makes my life a lot easier
and makes socializing a lot easier and like you
said it just ticks off the useful brain because
i'm not just useful to the person in front of
me in the chair i'm useful to the whole group
it makes me feel like i'm contributing like i've
earned my place there a little bit more than
just turning up and having a few drinks and a
crack on definitely yeah i think a lot of people
use the word community which we are using a lot
this episode people throw the word around and
what they mean is a place to go and do stuff
where What you're talking about and what I always
try to look for an opportunity for is a chance
to actually be part of community, contribute
something, like pull your weight in some way.
And it can be something small. It can just be
making someone feel welcome at their first munch
or whatever. You don't have to run an event or
do education or offer service in the way that
you do with boot blacking. But doing something
that's actually giving something back, not just
taking, is what makes it the difference between
having a place to go and having a community.
Yeah. And there's a really good feeling having
a skill that you've worked hard for and developed
over a long time and getting to use that in a
way that makes people feel really good. Yeah.
Is boot blacking something that you, I know you
said you'd learned like the actual, the skills
of shining shoes through Sea Cadets. Is that
something that happens within kink spaces as
well? Is there sort of boot black like classes
and workshops that people go to? There is a boot
black munch. I believe there are workshops. It's
not something I see a lot of on scene. Like I've
been approached to do. boot blacking scenes in
the past but there's always been like at more
traditional fet life play events a few years
back there were always concerns about sort of
the space it would take up and you know the paraffin
the polish smells like some people don't like
that and just kind of where it would fit because
it's not something that you you necessarily walk
into a dungeon and go that's really hot it's
a shame there's that resistance to it though
and i think i mean i know we've attended a lot
of the same events in the past and there does
seem to be within certain certain events a kind
of reluctance to have anything new or different
or that some people might not like rather than
thinking actually the whole point of these events
is we're all doing the stuff that a lot of people
won't like to see and we we make it work i think
in more in more recent history it's met with
a lot more curiosity yeah it used to be um the
first public boot blacking scene i did with my
partner was you slightly further down south and
it was just outside in the smoking area on a
bench and then i looked up and suddenly we had
a crowd and i was like why is everyone looking
a lot of people had questions or like you know
that was cool can we ask you more about it so
that was fun yeah that's amazing um it's something
i think it's really nice to see anything a little
bit different happen at events it keeps things
more interesting it's almost like you come from
the vanilla world where you don't see any of
the things you want to do and then you come into
kink space and you see all the things you want
to do at first and then you've been coming for
a couple of years and it's like Now I want to
see something different. I want to see something
interesting. I want to see something that I haven't
experienced before. I want to see something I
don't like that makes me a bit uncomfortable.
You know, you want those experiences. So anything
that adds that variety, I think is really, really
cool. How have you found that? Because I think
both of you mentioned that it was something that
Newcastle Leathermen were really looking for,
was to have boot blacks involved. How has that
been coming into that space where it's... People
aren't just curious and interested, but actively
looking for you. The first time I came with the
intention to actually set up a boot black stand,
I was really nervous. I actually messaged Duncan
beforehand because I didn't want to be presumptuous,
just turning up with my box of polish and everything,
being like, right, sit down, I'm ready to go.
So, yeah, we had a little discussion about it
and where it would be best to... And again, it's
still fairly new for us as well. So I think that's
something that we need to promote more and do
more. They might make a sign for the next social.
But even us putting it on social media before,
I just remind people. Culture -wise, if you go
to a bigger venue or a more established venue,
then there's an expectation for boot black to
be there, an expectation to use them. But with
us, we're still very newbie. And again, it's
just expanding out. But we have got a great space
in the venue we use at the moment. I'm just thinking
about what you're saying there is that the boot
blacking is much more visible as well. People
promoting it as well, the competitions. And there
is an expectation if you go somewhere. So I was
at Torremolinos Fetish Weekend and it was raining.
And I walked past one of the venues and underneath
an umbrella was a leather guy being boot blacked.
Nice. And then it was just, to me it is fairly
normal, but I remember going to Darklands and
my eyes being opened and talking to so many people
I'd seen online and getting like... You know,
fangirling is what I do. I'm famous for that
as well. Like, calm down. Calm down, Duncan.
And having great conversations as well with people
that I had talked to online and meeting in the
flesh for the first time and exchanging pin badges
and things. And where was I going with this?
I do ramble. That was it. So basically, they
were hosting competitions. Like, you know, I
think they had some boots that really messed
up on purpose. Who cleaned them the fastest as
well? And it was like, you know, and giving damaged
boots and things like that and just testing the
skills. It really put it to the forefront and
it was an important part of Darklands. And I
went to San Francisco. I went to Berlin. Huge
areas given to boot blacking as well and queues
and waiting for them. So there is a lot more
value put onto it. And to be honest, we need
to put more value on it as well. Yeah. And get
more people's boots out as well. I think the
first time that I ever had T saw out a pair of
my boots, they were a set of, and some people
in the audience will probably know the type,
the very old, I think, German para boots. They
meet every single boot safety standard you can
imagine, and then some. But I'd basically not
taken care of them at all. And I remember being
so impressed at what T managed to actually do
to them. You could literally see your face in
them by the time they were done. Somewhere there's
a before and after photo where one of them is
completely chewed up. The front of it's been
pitted by rocks and sticks and all kinds of nonsense
like that. And the other's just, it's worn, but
it looks good. It looks like it's been worn and
taken care of, not worn and just let to fester.
Oh, I like that word, fester. That was too much
praise. You have to cut that bit out. You have
gone bright red. Because it's a really skilled
thing to do, isn't it? I wouldn't know where
to begin. I have my kit. I should probably learn
some basics. I've got some quite nice leather
boots and a leather jacket and I simply do not
do anything to them. They just, they do what
they do. Because it is, you know, my experience
of cleaning shoes is the rubbish stuff that you
get from Tesco and just kind of rub over it and
stuff like that, which makes you feel itchy,
doesn't it? I can see you getting quite mad about
that. There was someone who had just done that
over their vest at the Newcastle Leather Weekend
a couple of weeks ago. And one of the other boot
blacks actually said someone was walking past
because there was just like this little sheen
on their shoulder. She went, have you spilled
something on yourself there? And I went, no,
it's the little polishy sponge. And he just went,
come back and see me later. So you're not using
the little Kiwi sticks then? Definitely not.
Can't. Oh no, I'm offended too. Seeing how we
treat our leather. Need a pair of shoes with
those. It's been a lot of fun boot blacking with
Newcastle Leathermen because like Duncan says,
we are just feeling it out as a collective. The
first night I set the stand up, the second person
who got in my chair was more nervous than I was.
He'd never sat for a boot black before and we
just... You're like, it's all right, we'll just
learn together. This is fine. Nervous about what
you might do to their boots or nervous about
the setting, I suppose? I think the setting,
it's hard not to feel a little bit pressured.
Like some of these guys' boots are horrendously
expensive. A guy sat for me at the leather weekend
who had just chipped his on the way up on the
train. And I looked at it and my first reaction
was just quiet horror. And he was really happy
with the repair I did. It was all fine. I had
everything I needed. Right. But just the initial
moment of, you know how important everyone's
gear is to them. Yeah. And the last thing you
want to do is cause damage or just make things
worse than they were. Yeah. yeah I imagine there's
like the double pressure within the leather community
that one you know a lot of this stuff is really
expensive and some of it really old as well but
also it's so personal to people it's something
that they really are personally invested in where
someone where that's not part of their community
and part of their identity who owns a really
expensive leather jacket for example they're
going to care about it because they've spent
hundreds of pounds on it but it's not like a
part of them yeah I think it must be a lot a
lot more pressure within that space especially
if you go back to what you were saying earlier
on about kind of leather which has either been
gifted or earned as part of the community it's
like you don't you want to get that right don't
you make sure it's but on a positive as well
is that there is that trust and there is that
link as well yeah yeah so so basically that that
that you do have that symbiosis as well between
the boot black your gear and yourself yeah and
it just runs there isn't necessary sexual either
but again it it is is that part of being and
it does Does come with that trust. So when are
you entering the Boot Black competition? Approximately
2045. No current plans. Being a title holder
comes with an enormous responsibility. Right.
I don't think I'm ready to consider at this point.
Previous winners have set up things like the
Boot Black Munch. Right. Wookiee, who's the current
title holder, is travelling to every leather
event in the UK. Oh, wow. To support them. Right.
I just do not have the time to even think about
that before I even look at the technical skills.
Do you know what? That's fair. Yeah. That's totally
fair. I think I'd asked everything I could think
of for that section. So over to you, Mix. Oh,
God, you gave me the really hard one. I genuinely
don't know how to start. Well, I have put several
prompts and suggested questions in there, so
I'm sure you'll do amazing. This is what happens.
This is like a little bit behind the scenes.
This is top -notch retting. Well done. And they
also know this because I will fully confess that
I often look at the outline 10 minutes before
we start. If that, yeah. If that. Thanks, V.
We have talked a lot. today about being part
of the kink community being part of queer community
and i guess i'm always interested to think about
the connection or the overlap between those two
kind of thinking about kind of your part parts
of the leather community do you see that as something
distinct from or part of your kink and or queer
identity does that make sense it does i do so
that gives me a heritage and a legacy behind
it as well so so there's there's many posters
like um like the leather archives and things
like that, regularly post things from the past
as well. And again, there's a lot of documentation
as well. So we do look to the past because you
can't move forward without it. And there's a
lot of great people that have come before us
and done things. And then we're just forwarding
that as well. And it has been part of the queer
community for the last, well, almost 70 years.
Starting off, you know, in the quiet back rooms
and that, right through to being on a stage.
and winning Mr. Leather Universe, basically.
Yeah, that makes sense. How about for you, T?
This is a very big question. It is a big question,
yeah. I think it's slightly different for me
because while I do relate to all the things Duncan
has said, especially as someone newer, having
that heritage and lineage to fall back on and
know exactly where I am and what I'm doing and
where I'm going is really useful. I feel like
it's slightly different to my overall identity
as a queer person because leather is just one
part of who I am and being queer is just one
part of who I am. And being into rope and running
events is just another part. Well, I got that
because that's where you're at at the moment.
Yeah. So give it 10, 20 years time when you're
writing books and doing seminars and things like
that. about what you've done but again that could
be part of where you're going but you are somewhere
now and everything you do is adding into the
community everything you do is current now and
then somebody will relate to that in the future
and look back on it as well yeah like i don't
think any of us are finished objects you know
we're all just finding our way as best we can
working out who we are and where we're going
and what we're buying next so in 10 years time
when you've got the capacity for the boot black
title that's the Yeah, by then I'll have it all
figured out. You'll be a complete person. Because
sometimes, I think it goes back to what you were
saying when we were talking earlier on about
the no fetish wear at Pride debate, isn't it?
It's that challenge from kind of either vanilla
queer people or kind of kinky straight people
and almost kind of having to fight for that acceptance
of actually all those different parts of us are
valid and they should all be visible and they
should all be seen and to use the word that we
keep using, normalised. Normalised as part of
our community. to really go for the bingo. Normalize
as part of our community and exposure therapy
for everyone else. It's sub -normalize a word.
You've just given us all an identity crisis.
What are we? Yeah, because as Mix mentioned,
there is sometimes that tension of being too
kinky for queer spaces and too queer for straight
kinky spaces. Have you found that? challenging
in any areas trying to find the place that you
both fit i would say there's no one size fits
all space at the moment i don't know if that's
something that we'll find ourselves with in the
future i find for me queer events are queer events
and kink events are kink events and the two will
sometimes occasionally meet but not in a big
meaningful fashion yeah for me it started off
of being separate but then it's something like
place and basically that that sometimes i need
to go somewhere and i have to travel in gear
and there's no hiding that the 40 people that
work with you every day see you going through
through that that place of work as well it's
just just normalized for me and again people
like to see it people like to see someone doing
something different and not apologizing for it.
And that's just my personal journey. I'm not
saying that everyone needs to do that, but I've
gone, I've just got to the stage now of after
I kept being outed and like only my auntie liking
it, but you know that your mother's seen it and
you know, your gran's seen it and they've not
said a word, but you know, they viewed it. So
it's just, yeah, it is now. I'm aware we are
recording this in May, but the release date of
this episode is in June. So for the purposes
of this, we're in Pride Month right now. And
so it's something we've been talking about a
lot on the podcast this month about how we feel
like our kink identities and our queer identities
sort of overlap and mesh with each other. It
makes us looking baffled right now because we
haven't recorded any of those episodes yet. But
do you feel that kink is an inherent part of
your sexual identities in a similar way to orientation
or does that sit in a very separate box for you
two? Sorry, go on. I would say personally it
is just an inherent part for me. I think that
I've been in, you know, vanilla monogamous relationships
before and it's just not quite worked out. There's
always been a thing missing. So I think it's
not a thing that I could just switch off or call
a preference. Yeah. For me, it is a political
statement as well as a sexual one. So it's that
whole thing of pride. It's just like, oh, keep,
you know, you know. tea only please we're british
and everything like that and again you've got
to kink keep sex and kink and i'm not saying
that you know run around naked or anything like
that but the big element of being queer is what
you do and who you're with as well so if you
have to sanitize that and you have to pretend
that that you know that that you know that you're
dressed as an angel and everything like that
so so with me i I will go out in full bluff as
well, and probably bright colours and things
as well. So I think I made the chronicle in bright
yellow leather. Amazing. I didn't buy it not
to be spotted, but part of that is talking to
people as well, giving out stickers and everything
like that. So it is very important. So I was
at a meeting this morning with somebody about
Sunderland Pride, and I won't be attending it
because I'm away, but we're very much like, is
that we need a presence there as well. It's not
just about being in Newcastle. Pride season has
well and truly started. So Durham Pride, there's
a lot of the smaller prides as well that we like
to be part of as well. Especially not that I
want to get too political, especially the climate
at the moment with local councils and things
and cutting of funding. It makes it all the more
important to be visible at them as well and just
say, right, I'm here, I'm not going away. Absolutely,
yeah. It all definitely blends for me where,
like... kink and my sexual orientation and sex
and politics like they are also mixed up with
each other you can't separate them like sex and
kink are inherently political sexual orientation
and your sexual identity in general is inherently
political because it's it's politics that will
fuck it up um it's yeah trying to separate any
of those things gets really messy be honest because
the leather gate it stopped my indifference where
i was indifferent to pride for a long time And
like, you know, while we're here, we've got marriage,
but there's a lot we still haven't got. Or a
lot of people that want to be here and they're
not for whatever reason as well. So again, it's
important to display and be visible as well.
It's very much uncomfortable. It has put fire
in my belly. And with everything that's going
on at the moment, it's put extra as well. Yeah.
So again, I'm not going to disappear. Amazing.
And even tiny bits of visibility bring positives.
We had a new boot black come to the social last
night who came because they'd seen Newcastle
Edmund posting about me, reached out to me as
a non -binary person to see how comfortable I
felt there. I'd gone, yeah, it's amazing. Be
there. So they came. They had a great time. And
they said afterwards they probably wouldn't have
made that step as soon as they did if they didn't
already know that it was a wholesome, safe space
for a non -binary person to be in. That's really
good. That's really good to hear. I think you're
right about that kind of the way the world is
at the moment, that kind of tabloid reaction
to the very idea of kink at pride sort of thing.
They assume that you have kink at pride and you're
going to see people being whipped in the street
and stuff like that. And it's, well, actually,
I could turn up in jeans and a T -shirt and you've
got kink at pride because I'm a kinky person
at pride. Yeah. And it's a little bit like yourself.
For a long time, I was a little bit kind of indifferent
to pride. I think partly for the tiny bit of
anti -capitalist in me and kind of the corporatization
of pride and stuff like that. But actually, it's
a really important thing. And you have to be
more increasingly visible for it to be accepted
and not in an acceptability politics kind of
way. This is the sanitized version of the thing
that everybody will accept. It's not actually,
this is who I am. And, you know, as the great
Gandalf once said, deal with it. I think it's
less about striving for acceptance than genuine
welcome. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
So we've come to the sad time when it's time
to start winding down, but it has been so good
chatting to both of you. Really interesting.
And like Mick's picked up on at the beginning,
these are always some of our favourite episodes
to do when it's something that we don't already
know loads about and we get to sit and learn
for an hour or two. So thank you both. Is there
anything that the Newcastle Leathermen have got
coming up that you want to tell us about? Because
I hope some people will want to get involved.
Well, next month in July is Newcastle Pride.
So we usually make a weekend of it as well. So
we'll be out and about on the Friday night. It's
not our social night. It's actually Energy, which
is the rubber social night. It's going to be
very busy, so we will be out on the Friday night.
We will be out in the parade march, and we'll
be out and about, probably with a little cocktail
or two, somewhere around the scene. You can find
us on our website. It's www .newcastleathermen
.com. We have a little shop there that we sell
all sorts on as well, from T -shirts through
to the new belt buckle. I'm not going to push
that too much, but we have a brand new belt buckle.
There we go. But again, you'll find all our socials
as well. on that as well, and a list of where
we'll be and what we're doing as well. So again,
if we're planning a theatre trip, whatever, that
will be on there as well, links as well. I will
include some links in the description to make
sure people have no excuse not to find you. We
also are planning our next level weekend as well.
So it is going to be... from the 19th to the
21st of March as part of our fifth birthday as
well. So that's the reason we have it in March.
It doesn't clash with many other things in the
leather community as well. So let's make Newcastle
extra kinky. That is definitely a mission that
I can get on board with. And thank you both again
so much for coming on. Really massively appreciated.
It sounds like you are both extremely busy people
with lots of events to organise and lots of leather
to polish. So thank you for taking the time out
to come and chat to us. Thank you so much. Thank
you for having us. Thank you for having us. Excellent.
Amazing. Okay, that is us done for today. Thank
you. Bye. Bye. See you next time.