WEBVTT

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Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast

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where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,

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a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who

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likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And

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I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver

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all of the above. And today we're going to be

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talking all about leather. We've got a couple

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of guests who I will be introducing very soon.

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So, welcome. Today we have T and Duncan with

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us. Hello. Hello. So I thought we'd start off

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in the obvious and terrifying way of asking you

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to tell us a little bit about yourselves. I'll

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say it. My name's Duncan. I am part of the gay

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lover community. I've been part of the community

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for nearly five years now, so I sometimes see

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it as a relatively newbie, but I also run the

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local social club as well. Amazing. I'm T. I'm

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quite new to the leather scene, but I'm a boot

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black and have been for an amount of time now.

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An amount of time. An amount of time. I've been

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actively polishing boots and caring for leather

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as an act of service for a few years, but I'm

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newer to the act of boot blacking as its own

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self -contained thing. Right. and that's i think

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a really interesting distinction that we'll want

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to dive into later it's sort of at what point

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does it become like the thing um but no that's

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cool i wondered when you said like an amount

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of time of that was like being conscious that

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we're sort of like all relative newbies and then

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you've been part of the kink scene for like a

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thousand years right yes i am actually one thousand

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and three years old i spent my formative years

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in antarctica it does wonders for the skin And

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what about for both of you, what drew you to

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the leather and kink communities? I can tell

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you a little bit about myself, how I came into

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it. So I am quite short. You've probably noticed

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that. And before lockdown, it was difficult finding

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any leather that fitted me and any kink clothing

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that fitted me because of my size. Then during

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lockdown, obviously, we had a little bit more

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money in our pockets. I'd actually handed my

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notice in just before lockdown. So I was like,

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I don't really care. I can do whatever I want

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now. I don't answer to anybody. And that's where

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I started coming from. And then I went online,

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started chatting to people on X and Instagram,

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and they pointed me in the right direction of

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where I could buy leather. And then suddenly,

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ordered a little bit, it fitted. Ordered a bit

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more, it fitted. No savings left anymore, but

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a large wardrobe now of leather items. And then

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I was online. So basically, I was one of those

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persons. During lockdown, and again, lockdown

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did help me, I'm one of the few people that really

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like lockdown, that I didn't have to be anywhere.

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You know, you could just be like this little

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leather guy taking pictures of yourself, and

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it started with no headshots, and then one day

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I just started taking headshots as well, because

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I've got nothing to lose, really. And then you

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start chatting to more people online, and then

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that's when you really discover that leather

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is quite a social thing. It is a sexual thing

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as well, but it is also very social. And then

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you start doing Zooms online as well. The very

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first time I used Zoom, I'm not very technical,

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as you guys know already. And it was major fail.

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Turned it on. My mic didn't work. Turned the

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camera off. And there's literally, it's the Muppet

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show of leather guys from all around the world

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just watching you, 40 little faces. And it's

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the first to the outside world. being a social

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thing that leather men couldn't go out in their

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gear couldn't meet up so there was lots of online

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communities as well um i joined leather men scotland

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and they actually had a grant from the government

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to actually host a zoom call as well wow um because

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again not specifically for for leather but it

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was for the lgbtq community and and to stop loneliness

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as well so i made a lot of friends so about six

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seven eight months later when we could go out

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in our leather suddenly i started meeting people

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and it just all came but by then community wise

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i already met people from all around the world

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that we chatted we zoomed um i've stayed in people's

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homes in san francisco people have stayed with

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me um talking early about some australian friends

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that came over as well so we really are two degrees

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of separation somebody knows somebody who knows

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somebody if you're confident enough and you want

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to be that that part of it as well so As you

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say, I've come in almost full leathers here as

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well. I'll be out in public like this as well.

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My parents know about it. My work knows about

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it. I kept being outed on Facebook, to be honest.

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So again, I just stopped caring. So basically,

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I present myself as a leather man to give other

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people confidence as well. I love that because

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I think that's something that's really important

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to me as well. Since I figured out my identity

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as a submissive, I never wanted... I never wanted

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other people to have the power to tell other

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people about it. I didn't want to be having to

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be scared of people finding out. So I'm very,

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very open as well. And it's nice to meet other

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people who've taken that approach because it's,

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I think, scary, but worth it. Yeah, it is. It

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is. And again, it's almost like a weight being

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off your shoulders as well. And you kind of think,

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was it really that big a deal? It was. And I

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don't want to take away from that. But I compare

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it to coming out. When you come out as gay or

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lesbian. There's a huge thing and that weights

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off your shoulders. And then when you do it again

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as a leather guy or a fetish guy or kink guy

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or gal or them, that weight comes off a second

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time. Yeah. And the first time I went out, out

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in public was to Glasgow. I often tell people

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it helps if it's not your local city. And I remember

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fully in leather, boots on, cap on, in the hotel

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room. Right, I'm going to stay in now. I don't

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want to go out. And suddenly the fear came. And

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I did not want to go out. I thought, this is

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stupid. Then I went out and then suddenly I wasn't

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scared anymore. Either people smiled or they

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looked straightforward and ignored you. And I

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love that power. Suddenly you mattered enough

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that you didn't exist anymore. Like, oh my God.

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Most people assume you're a biker until you put

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your mule cap on and then they know. So when

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I walked in here, that mule cap was underneath

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my arm. That way that you're just a biker until

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you put the mule cap on you. And then suddenly

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it's like, oh, oh, you're one of those. There

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was a moment actually at Newcastle Leather Weekend

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where we were all out on the quayside at the

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market. And someone walked past us and went,

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they must be a bike gang. Did that make you feel

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like a proper badass? Tiny bit. And how about

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you, T? What sort of drew you into, I guess there's

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two for you, the kink scene and then now finding

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leather specifically. Yeah, so I came to the

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kink scene about 10 years ago just to find people

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into the same weird stuff I was into, like I

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think a lot of us do. And then one of those things

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I became into, rather than very sort of generic

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service submission and just, I will make your

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shoes nice and clean before you go out tonight,

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which is a lovely thing in its own right, I'm

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not going to detract from that, was actually

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becoming interested in boot blacking. which is

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a whole distinct, different thing. And I went,

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well, not a lot of people are doing this on the

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fetish scene. I know it's starting to pick up

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a bit of traction now and more people are being

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interested. So I need to find the experts. So

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I googled Newcastle leather scene and that's

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how I found Newcastle Leather Men. So I sent

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Duncan a message just being like, you know, I'm

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not your stereotypical leather man. I'm really

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interested in boot blacking. I want to learn.

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I want to contribute. Can I come along? And he

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was just like, yes, see you next Friday. Amazing.

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We were actively looking for as well. Because

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again, we're a fairly new group. So we're only

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four years old. The oldest active group is London

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Leather and they're 50, they're about 51, 52

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years old now. So we're fairly new, but a lot

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of groups actually started up after COVID as

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well, where basically we're a much bigger scene

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and we're probably equal to what would have been

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in the 70s or early 80s now as well. But the

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boot blacking community is growing more and more

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in importance and Providence as well, where they

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are seen as very important. So to the point of

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last year, the prize fund and the budget for

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international boot black. is the same as international

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leather now so there's that recognition where

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a few years ago there was an instance where where

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basically boot blacks were forgotten about And

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like, oh, we'll put them in a corridor. And like,

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you know, that was outrageous. And ever since

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then, it's felt like, you know, to prominence.

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If you go to any festival as well, like Folsom,

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you'll find the queues for the boot plaques as

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well, dark clubs and everything like that. So

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they are a real valuable and important part of

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the community. And we look to them to mentor

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us as well, you know, that they can often give

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us advice on how to look after something. And

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it's not just about looking after our booths,

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it's looking after our leather and being part

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of a greater, bigger community as well. So it

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is very important. amazing yeah because this

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is this is my favorite type of episode to do

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because i don't know very much I have approximate

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knowledge of the leather community and approximate

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knowledge of boot blacking. So I'm going to learn

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a bunch of stuff today. Do you want to just tell

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us a little bit about what the leather community

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is and a little bit more about Newcastle Leather

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Men as well? Okay, yeah. Well, I'll try to. So

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some of this might be from my point of view and

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some might be history, and I hope I've got some

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of the names and dates and things right as well.

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But the leather community is the oldest subsection

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of the gay community, or the oldest organised.

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It started off after World War II, and it comes

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from a lot of people being away for the first

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time and being in all -male environments as well.

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So from that came a liking of uniform, being

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used to being in uniform, and leather was involved

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as well. Both in America, it mainly comes from

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as well, and then also in Europe, and it kind

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of evolved at the same time and went in slightly

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different directions and slightly different styles.

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Once it came to the 50s, one of the easiest ways

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to be gay and be in a community was to be in

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a bike gang. And nobody would think anything

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of a load of men going away together, dressed

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in leather on motorbikes. Wouldn't think anything

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of it at all. And from that, the almost governing

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body, the ECMC... which is the European Confederation

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of Motorcycle Clubs, and that's the European

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branch of it. There was an American side of it

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as well. So before the internet and everything

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like that, it was fan clubs that could write

00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:48.840
to each other and let know what was going on.

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So once it came to the 60s, it got more organised.

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So the uniforms became stylised as well. Fan

00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:57.600
clubs like Bluff, and you'll often hear that,

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which is the Breaches and Uniform Fan Club. So

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when you see somebody in complete full leather

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with the mule cap and everything, that is known

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as Bluff. or full cow we call it as well sometimes

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as well so it's very stylized very uniform from

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the boots through to like like the the traditional

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cap but during the 50s like many things that

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some things became mainstream as well so it's

00:11:19.100 --> 00:11:21.460
also seen as rebellious as well so you've got

00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:24.580
rebel that cause yes you know borrowing some

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other things as well from it and even through

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to like the 70s where you've got the village

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people as well so there's the stereotype there

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as well so quite often Um, if I'm ever out, you'll

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hear people singing and YMCA or shouting out

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something or whatever. And then we've got like

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a little bingo tip card. So if somebody shouts

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out like, you know, Hitler or whatever, like,

00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.460
right, thank you for that. I can take that. Some

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of the things YMCA can do that as well. But basically,

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from that, it became quite an organized community.

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So there is the Leather Archives in Chicago,

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and Chicago is seen as the spiritual home for

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leather. And in fact, this weekend coming up

00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:05.039
is International Mr. Leather. So a number of

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friends of mine are actually entering it. So

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basically, I shouldn't call it a big beauty pageant

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because I'll get told off for doing that. But

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basically, to be at that, you already have to

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have had a title. So Newcastle Leathermen do

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not have a title. But Leather Scotland are introducing

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a title for this year. So basically Leatherman

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Cymru, so Wales has got a title. Leatherman London

00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.279
has got a title as well. Leatherman Ireland have

00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:37.220
got Mr. Leather Dublin as well. So a game where

00:12:37.220 --> 00:12:39.399
basically that you can put yourself forward for

00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.779
it. You're judged on what you've done for the

00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:45.019
community, what you plan to do, what you look

00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:48.299
like, basically. And you look like a community

00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:50.529
leader. So it's not just about what you look

00:12:50.529 --> 00:12:53.490
like. And that comes down to charity work and

00:12:53.490 --> 00:12:55.730
things like that. So this was really in its high

00:12:55.730 --> 00:12:58.750
in the 70s and early 80s. Then the AIDS crisis

00:12:58.750 --> 00:13:03.029
came along. So what we found is that the AIDS

00:13:03.029 --> 00:13:06.149
crisis did decimate the leather community because

00:13:06.149 --> 00:13:08.409
basically sexually we did a lot more. We put

00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:11.070
ourselves out there more. So we were more susceptible

00:13:11.070 --> 00:13:14.830
as well. Also, the greater gay community also.

00:13:15.309 --> 00:13:17.750
turned on us as well and saw us as as basically

00:13:17.750 --> 00:13:19.629
causing a lot of problems also because we're

00:13:19.629 --> 00:13:21.950
more visible as well sometimes the gay community

00:13:21.950 --> 00:13:24.529
doesn't want visibility they want normality sometimes

00:13:24.529 --> 00:13:29.429
as well so again um we were blamed for the aids

00:13:29.429 --> 00:13:32.320
crisis in some point I'm being very generalistic

00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:34.600
there. But also what happened there was that

00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:36.899
because it decimated our community, we were one

00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:38.820
of the communities that also the forefront of

00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:40.799
safe sex messaging and things like that and looking

00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.120
after and buddying as well. Because my understanding

00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:45.700
is that's where the term safe, sane, consensual

00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:47.960
started was where the communities during the

00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.580
AIDS crisis sort of realised there needed to

00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:53.000
be like a structure and an agreed approach to

00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.460
preventing transmission primarily more than some

00:13:55.460 --> 00:13:58.179
of the risks that we think of relating to BDSM

00:13:58.179 --> 00:14:00.769
now. It was more about, OK, so whatever. kind

00:14:00.769 --> 00:14:02.090
of play you're doing the first thing you think

00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:04.090
about is transmission risk and that's where that

00:14:04.090 --> 00:14:07.049
idea sort of came into to both curtail some of

00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:09.370
the spread and also some of the kind of nihilistic

00:14:09.370 --> 00:14:11.450
self -destructive behavior that that people were

00:14:11.450 --> 00:14:12.809
doing if they kind of felt like nothing mattered

00:14:12.809 --> 00:14:16.269
they were taking more risks yeah so the the community

00:14:16.269 --> 00:14:19.330
still did survive and exist but it kind of got

00:14:19.330 --> 00:14:21.370
smaller it's always been there but it was kind

00:14:21.370 --> 00:14:23.809
of seen as uncool or whatever or something very

00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:26.669
old -fashioned and then covid came along and

00:14:26.669 --> 00:14:28.909
then suddenly we discovered you know back to

00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:31.210
our roots. And if we always wanted to do it,

00:14:31.230 --> 00:14:33.009
and you know, do you know what? We could not

00:14:33.009 --> 00:14:34.289
be here next year. We don't know what's happening

00:14:34.289 --> 00:14:37.250
with COVID. So a lot of people took risks and

00:14:37.250 --> 00:14:40.129
did things they wouldn't normally do. And I was

00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:43.110
one of those. So again, full circle. So then

00:14:43.110 --> 00:14:46.269
because we had this bond online with people and

00:14:46.269 --> 00:14:48.389
people were talking to each other, and there's

00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:51.909
a lot more communication as well within the love

00:14:51.909 --> 00:14:53.250
community and the bond community. And again,

00:14:53.389 --> 00:14:55.210
like you said, with consent and things like that.

00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:57.490
So we would better communicate. So I'm not saying

00:14:57.490 --> 00:14:59.490
we're perfect. And somebody might disagree with

00:14:59.490 --> 00:15:02.769
me or what I'm saying as well. But basically

00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:05.330
that I just found a kinder community that understood

00:15:05.330 --> 00:15:09.350
and listened more. And then from that, you know,

00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:11.730
you make friends and it's easier to talk to each

00:15:11.730 --> 00:15:13.490
other. So it's quite amazing that I probably

00:15:13.490 --> 00:15:15.250
am friends with people that I wouldn't have been

00:15:15.250 --> 00:15:17.470
if it wasn't for leather. And it's come to the

00:15:17.470 --> 00:15:19.470
point now that I've got leather friends that

00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:21.789
we talk about gardening. Or people would be very

00:15:21.789 --> 00:15:23.830
disappointed if they listened in. They assume

00:15:23.830 --> 00:15:25.590
we're talking about fisting or bonding or something

00:15:25.590 --> 00:15:27.889
like that. And sometimes we are, but it's mainly

00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:30.769
about quiche and kittens, we always say. We forget

00:15:30.769 --> 00:15:32.590
we're in leather and it's the social element

00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:35.169
as well. So we were out last night, weren't we,

00:15:35.309 --> 00:15:37.889
at the Leather Social. And again, there's a real

00:15:37.889 --> 00:15:39.490
mix of people there and people that probably

00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:41.710
wouldn't give me the time of day if it wasn't

00:15:41.710 --> 00:15:44.350
for the leather starting it off as well. It gives

00:15:44.350 --> 00:15:46.669
you a common starting point, something that you

00:15:46.669 --> 00:15:47.990
share and then you find the rest of the things.

00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.860
And sometimes the gay scene can be seen as a

00:15:50.860 --> 00:15:53.620
bit unfriendly. If you don't go out with friends

00:15:53.620 --> 00:15:54.820
and you go out there maybe because you want to

00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:56.419
meet somebody or take somebody home, whatever,

00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.740
it's that whole thing all night of, like, cat

00:15:58.740 --> 00:16:00.740
and mouse and, like, you know, am I, you know,

00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.200
going to pull somebody? The leather social, again,

00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:05.980
this is not a sexual thing that we've got. It's

00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.580
a social. So basically people can meet up together.

00:16:08.659 --> 00:16:11.320
And the thing they've got in common is that we

00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.759
like or wear leather. And, again, that's something

00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.379
that I've got to point out as well is that just

00:16:15.379 --> 00:16:18.200
because we're called Newcastle Leather Men, Always

00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.659
when I give a card, I ignore the pronouns. We're,

00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:23.779
you know, we're open to everybody as well. And

00:16:23.779 --> 00:16:28.019
T, you were our first member as well. So I was

00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:31.600
very excited by that as well. So one of the downsides

00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:34.940
with the community is it's largely white male.

00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:37.639
And there are clubs and, like, Leather Dykes.

00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.639
Again, people are joining together more. There's

00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.500
Proteus as well, which is the trans side of it.

00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:44.620
And Leather Dykes has always been very trans

00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:47.019
-inclusive. Again, it comes from being seen as

00:16:47.019 --> 00:16:49.370
an... that was a bit more of an outcast or you're

00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:53.129
more willing to so that basically is our community

00:16:53.129 --> 00:16:56.940
is quite big and quite fluid overall yeah that's

00:16:56.940 --> 00:16:58.679
definitely what i've heard is the sort of perception

00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.419
of it is from the outside people see it as very

00:17:01.419 --> 00:17:03.179
much this is for men and then there's a couple

00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:05.099
of smaller groups of women and that's it but

00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:06.720
then the people i know who've engaged with it

00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:08.140
are always like yeah vast majority of the time

00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:10.359
people are really trans inclusive willing to

00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.019
sort of accept non -binary people into wherever

00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:13.700
they feel like they best fit things like that

00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:15.880
which is is great and i know t you've had a really

00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:17.339
positive experience with that and we're really

00:17:17.339 --> 00:17:19.740
excited that as a non -binary person you were

00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.759
allowed yeah you get some of my excited messages

00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:25.579
yeah Oh, well, everyone listening to this can't

00:17:25.579 --> 00:17:28.160
see me. I'm quite a femme presenting non -binary

00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.880
person. So initially I was a little concerned

00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.680
that I would be co -opting a space that wasn't

00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:36.059
built for me, which is never something that you

00:17:36.059 --> 00:17:39.259
want to do intentionally. And I've never been

00:17:39.259 --> 00:17:41.380
made to feel unwelcome. I've never been made

00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.460
to feel different. You know, I've just been kind

00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:46.619
of folded in from day one. They were just like,

00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.920
we've got boot blacks now. This is amazing. Thank

00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.849
you. My gender and anatomy is utterly irrelevant

00:17:53.849 --> 00:17:56.130
to everyone there, which is amazing. I suppose

00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:57.990
there's a couple of things for me, because it

00:17:57.990 --> 00:18:01.210
sounds from what you're saying about the value

00:18:01.210 --> 00:18:04.990
from the leather community is primarily a social

00:18:04.990 --> 00:18:08.009
thing. I suppose my uneducated perception of

00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:09.750
it, especially thinking about the history that

00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:12.670
you described, is that there's an element of

00:18:12.670 --> 00:18:16.130
it which is quite protocol -driven and slightly

00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:19.890
hierarchical. Is that still part of it? Yes and

00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:23.609
no. That is classed as what's called old guard.

00:18:23.849 --> 00:18:27.730
Right. So old guard is things like you can't

00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:30.390
buy a meal cap for yourself. You've got to earn

00:18:30.390 --> 00:18:32.250
it and it's going to be given to you. Right.

00:18:32.269 --> 00:18:35.170
And then you go from like a sub to a master or

00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:38.769
a boy to a sir. So what I did gloss over, which

00:18:38.769 --> 00:18:40.829
is probably a big part of this, especially for

00:18:40.829 --> 00:18:44.349
your podcast as well, is that side of it as well.

00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:47.130
So the BDSM, the power play and things like that,

00:18:47.150 --> 00:18:51.660
which was very much part of it as well. So Old

00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:54.680
Guard was basically that you get introduced,

00:18:55.059 --> 00:18:58.480
you get given leather or you earn leather, you

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.740
earn your keep basically as well. So there's

00:19:00.740 --> 00:19:02.660
the leather handbook, which has been around since

00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.279
the 70s, still available from Amazon and all

00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.140
good bookshops. And again, that was the time

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:11.200
where it was very male orientated. You know,

00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:13.180
you do not have coloured leather. You do not

00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:15.279
do this, you know that. You've got to be in this

00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.960
kind of way. You wear your Sam Brown belt in

00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.859
a certain way. Yeah. there's new guard so basically

00:19:21.859 --> 00:19:25.099
nowadays that the say like if you join um a club

00:19:25.099 --> 00:19:27.240
like bluff bluff is a great club some people

00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:31.359
see it as um quite exclusive one downside of

00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:34.839
bluff one downside of it is it is for for men

00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.599
at the moment women are not admitting to it where

00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.680
where basically you have to send a picture of

00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.259
yourself in a uniform yeah um which is form of

00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:45.400
leather or leather and cloth you get given a

00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.259
number and then that's your bluff number as well

00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:49.349
so if you look on instagram if i leather men

00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:51.730
and they'll have um a bluff number i'm fighting

00:19:51.730 --> 00:19:55.170
the bio sometimes so i'm 599 if you google me

00:19:55.170 --> 00:19:59.289
or or look it up um and again it's one way of

00:19:59.289 --> 00:20:02.069
identifying each other with it as well but not

00:20:02.069 --> 00:20:04.049
everyone joins that some people say think no

00:20:04.049 --> 00:20:06.289
you don't need that i can be my own person as

00:20:06.289 --> 00:20:08.750
well and many people are so that's where new

00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:10.809
guard comes in so basically if you want to wear

00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:12.950
pink leather you can If you want to wear green

00:20:12.950 --> 00:20:15.049
leather, you can. If you want to mix it up, you

00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:17.250
can. If you want to buy your own mule cap, you

00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:20.690
can. It's your fetish. It's what you want to

00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:23.410
do. And it's how you want to be. So basically,

00:20:23.630 --> 00:20:28.029
so Old Guard does have some romanticism and a

00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:30.309
lot of people like that as well. And I'll dip

00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:32.369
in and out of it as well. But I'll just dip in

00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:35.309
and out. It doesn't rule my life. And for that

00:20:35.309 --> 00:20:38.349
reason, the Newcastle Leathermen does not have

00:20:38.349 --> 00:20:41.400
a uniform policy or a rule. So there'll be some

00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.119
socials that you won't be admitted unless you're

00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:48.259
fully in leather. And that's not us. It excludes

00:20:48.259 --> 00:20:49.559
people. It could be for whatever reason that

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:51.819
you don't want to be out in leather. You don't

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:54.619
own leather. You like leather wrong and want

00:20:54.619 --> 00:20:56.980
to be in it. But then that then excludes you.

00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.460
Because it's quite an expensive thing to buy,

00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:02.059
isn't it? It is. That's why I've got to be careful

00:21:02.059 --> 00:21:04.279
because my partner could be listening in to this

00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.380
podcast. Yes, I found a receipt the other day.

00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:09.819
Apparently I told a little white lie about how

00:21:09.819 --> 00:21:13.299
much something costs. It does creep up on you.

00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:17.779
But the rule of thumb there is don't spend more

00:21:17.779 --> 00:21:19.700
than you can afford and start off with something

00:21:19.700 --> 00:21:23.900
you want. Leather lasts a lifetime if it's looked

00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:26.799
after. So this jacket was actually given to me

00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:31.279
and it's probably from the 70s or the 80s. And

00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.480
it's still with us. The cap was given to me as

00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.079
well. And I gave somebody else another cap. And

00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.240
then this is probably at least 30, 40 years old

00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.180
as well. They last. Boots are secondhand as well

00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:46.000
from eBay. They weren't cheap, but again, I had

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.599
the money in my pocket and it's what I wanted.

00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:51.720
The jeans are also secondhand as well. So there's

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.240
a secondhand marketplace called Second Skin where

00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.319
a lot of kinksters sell. Sometimes you get a

00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.099
bargain, these were. Sometimes you want something

00:22:00.099 --> 00:22:02.960
specific as well. And you can buy new as well.

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.079
Leather is one of those things is that you can

00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:08.339
borrow it as well. And the community has also

00:22:08.339 --> 00:22:11.640
got, slightly back to the old guard, is a gifting

00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.559
as well. So people gave me things when I started.

00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:16.779
I give people things when I start as well. And

00:22:16.779 --> 00:22:19.880
I found a lot of short leather guys in the world

00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.500
as well. So we do swap and borrow each other's

00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:26.160
clothes. So again, it's easy to say, but don't

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:28.519
spend more than you have to. And then bit by

00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.480
bit, you blink and before you know it, you've

00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.319
got 17 million jackets that you don't have to

00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.039
pinch your own anymore. It's one of the reasons

00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.299
bootblacks are so valued by the community is

00:22:37.299 --> 00:22:39.900
because we're helping you maintain that investment

00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:42.180
in your gear. We're helping it last longer and

00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:44.750
we're helping you. carry those memories of people

00:22:44.750 --> 00:22:46.250
who have given you that leather who have worn

00:22:46.250 --> 00:22:48.670
it before you like that's a legacy as much as

00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:50.450
anything else yeah it's definitely something

00:22:50.450 --> 00:22:52.309
you'd want to take good care of it reminds me

00:22:52.309 --> 00:22:55.130
of i i um briefly dated someone who had a latex

00:22:55.130 --> 00:22:56.890
fetish and it seems like there's a very similar

00:22:56.890 --> 00:22:59.289
sort of thing there where it's a huge investment

00:22:59.289 --> 00:23:01.430
it can absolutely drain all of your savings away

00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:03.369
and taking care of it is so important and i know

00:23:03.369 --> 00:23:05.329
that that person spent a lot of their time and

00:23:05.329 --> 00:23:08.190
money in maintaining their collection definitely

00:23:08.190 --> 00:23:11.150
so you mentioned newcastle lesman a couple of

00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:16.019
times yes um Tell us about that, and you're involved

00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:19.779
in that. Okay, so I was on a well -known app,

00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:22.460
which should remain nameless, that I mainly just

00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:27.740
socialise on. And another person just answered,

00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:29.519
and we were chatting, and it's got leather in

00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:35.000
my likes, and we met for a coffee. And then we

00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.279
met for another coffee a week later, and then

00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:38.980
he brought his laptop round, because we had talked

00:23:38.980 --> 00:23:42.380
about it. I'm on another site called Recon, which

00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:46.180
is like a fetish dating app or a fetish. I use

00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:48.119
it like Facebook, to be honest. So a lot of my

00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:50.400
friends are on that. I've always wanted to start

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.420
up something up here. So as you can hear, I'm

00:23:52.420 --> 00:23:54.180
not a Geordie. I've been up here since 2000.

00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:57.440
And it's something I've wanted to start up for

00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.099
a long time and talk to people out there that

00:23:59.099 --> 00:24:01.400
I'd never met, but were interested in something.

00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:04.140
And it just took somebody to start it off. So

00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:08.579
me and my friend just, okay, design the logo.

00:24:09.399 --> 00:24:12.480
We decided on a launch day. We had all the social

00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.980
media set up and we just did it. We showed up

00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:17.759
at a local bar. We didn't ask. Right. Because

00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.039
what I often find is that sometimes if you ask

00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:22.740
bars and things, they say no because they don't

00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:24.619
want to be part of it. That's my perception.

00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:28.119
Again, it's often a false perception, but sometimes

00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.099
I've heard of other clubs as well that ask to

00:24:30.099 --> 00:24:31.200
be at a bar and they're like, no, we don't want

00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.460
you here. Right. So we just turned up and it

00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:35.779
was like four people the first month, six the

00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:38.339
next, eight, back to six again because it was

00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:40.690
Easter. But one thing we always wanted to make

00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:42.609
sure is that if we say we're going to meet up

00:24:42.609 --> 00:24:46.309
somewhere, we will. And even if it's like Christmas

00:24:46.309 --> 00:24:49.230
Eve or Christmas Day, if our meet fell on that

00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:51.390
day, you never know who's going to turn up. And

00:24:51.390 --> 00:24:52.650
to be honest with you, whenever we've done it,

00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:55.349
there's been one new person. And I'd hate us

00:24:55.349 --> 00:24:57.990
not to be there for that one person that was

00:24:57.990 --> 00:25:00.769
brave enough to put leather on or to meet. So

00:25:00.769 --> 00:25:02.650
we're also in a mixed environment as well. So

00:25:02.650 --> 00:25:04.529
that's what we wanted to be as well. So we didn't

00:25:04.529 --> 00:25:06.869
want it to be exclusive. We wanted to be proud.

00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.079
And on view as well, but interact. So going a

00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.180
step back. So me and my friend then went on social

00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:17.099
media and just said, right, we're here. Who wants

00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:21.339
to come? Yeah. So now we regularly get 15 to

00:25:21.339 --> 00:25:23.900
30 people coming as well. We often get visitors

00:25:23.900 --> 00:25:26.759
from other areas coming up to us as well. So

00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.039
I've already put pictures on social media out

00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.059
there. And again, I'm careful to know who wants

00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:33.619
to be in social media or not. So quite often

00:25:33.619 --> 00:25:35.720
the backgrounds are blurry. You can't see who's

00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:37.779
in it. unless i'm at the forefront or whatever

00:25:37.779 --> 00:25:39.980
like that um yeah i think my favorite one is

00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:41.539
the one where i've just got an emoji for a face

00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:45.740
yeah it's such a good picture i think you were

00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:47.960
you were boot backing me as well so like there

00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.660
you go smiley emoji on top of it and then and

00:25:50.660 --> 00:25:53.240
then Bender boots as well. That's what I do with

00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.319
Mix when I post them on my public socials because

00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.460
they're a much more private person than me. Obviously,

00:25:57.460 --> 00:25:59.160
happy to have their voice on the podcast, but

00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:00.759
not their face all over Instagram and TikTok.

00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:02.619
So if I'm sharing a picture of them, I always

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:05.220
put the smiling purple devil emoji over their

00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:07.660
face. That's become probably what people most

00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:10.119
think of you as now. You're trying to get me

00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:14.380
to buy an actual smiling devil emoji mask or

00:26:14.380 --> 00:26:20.920
something, aren't you? Yes, yes. So from there,

00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:23.859
we hosted our first leather weekend, which we

00:26:23.859 --> 00:26:26.119
thought, oh, maybe 20 people will attend. We

00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:28.900
sold nearly 60 tickets for it. We sold out the

00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:36.279
restaurant as well. Right. We had... um uk boot

00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.099
black 2025 visit us we had mr leather europe

00:26:40.099 --> 00:26:42.759
visit us as well from ireland right and we attracted

00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:44.619
people from all over the country and it did put

00:26:44.619 --> 00:26:46.519
newcastle on the map because that's something

00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:49.460
i'm very passionate about is making the northeast

00:26:49.460 --> 00:26:53.539
a kinkier place and we are but again that there's

00:26:53.539 --> 00:26:55.920
this there's manchester there's london there's

00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.480
a lot of other cities around what's wrong with

00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.809
the northeast as well Our hotels are a lot cheaper.

00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:03.089
You know, the people are friendly. And again,

00:27:03.170 --> 00:27:05.869
it's great. So it showcased. So we're starting

00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:07.990
planning next year and already had a lot of interest

00:27:07.990 --> 00:27:10.309
in people wanting to come across. So that did

00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:13.990
touch our hearts as well. but we are in communication

00:27:13.990 --> 00:27:16.490
with most of the other clubs in the UK and Ireland

00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:18.269
as well so that's something as well when it comes

00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:20.869
to communication that we do talk to each other

00:27:20.869 --> 00:27:23.630
so our dates don't clash if we've got like a

00:27:23.630 --> 00:27:26.210
I think we had a safeguarding issue in another

00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:28.529
club and all the clubs got together and we actually

00:27:28.529 --> 00:27:31.730
did a zoom together to discuss and we strengthened

00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:34.750
up our codes of conduct to make sure it doesn't

00:27:34.750 --> 00:27:37.819
happen again or anything like that so yeah I'm

00:27:37.819 --> 00:27:39.599
from a retail background originally, so we have

00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:42.099
a little shop and I'm constantly designing something

00:27:42.099 --> 00:27:44.559
new and selling something new just to get club

00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.160
funds in as well. And is it primarily a social

00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.799
thing for the group or are there kind of community

00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.200
-facing things that you do as well? We do communicate.

00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:54.900
So we have been fundraising. There's things we

00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:56.720
plan to do later on in the year, some more fundraising.

00:27:56.819 --> 00:28:01.059
We go to the theatre. We do walks. We visit other

00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:03.660
clubs. This weekend, I attended Torre Molinos

00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:06.400
Fetish Weekend as well. Again, representing the

00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.019
club with another member as well. Weekend before

00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:13.880
I was in Dublin. Between work and... I've got

00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:16.160
no time for myself. But again, something to support

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:17.799
another club where it's their sixth birthday.

00:28:18.099 --> 00:28:21.180
So I just appeared. Yeah. You know, it's actually

00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.119
a £31 return as he thinks about, you know, like

00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:26.160
not booking a hotel and just sleeping in the

00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.509
airport on the way back. I didn't have to sleep

00:28:28.509 --> 00:28:30.309
in the airport in the end. Somebody offered me

00:28:30.309 --> 00:28:33.549
an airbed in their living room as well. But they

00:28:33.549 --> 00:28:36.369
were fun things to do. And it's keeping the community

00:28:36.369 --> 00:28:38.430
alive. And it's a much bigger community than

00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.470
just us in the northeast as well. So it is very

00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:46.210
important. And what do you, just listening to

00:28:46.210 --> 00:28:47.490
the way that you talk, it's obviously really

00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:49.630
important to you and you get a lot out of it.

00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:51.170
What are the things that you've kind of got from

00:28:51.170 --> 00:28:55.450
being part of that and leading that group? It's

00:28:55.450 --> 00:28:58.670
friendship. I keep saying community. It's like

00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:00.630
community bingo. You know how many times I say

00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:05.210
community before they shout house. It is, again,

00:29:06.569 --> 00:29:09.109
it's a sense of importance. I don't want that

00:29:09.109 --> 00:29:12.410
to sound arrogant either. But before I became

00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:14.609
a Leatherman and part of the community, kind

00:29:14.609 --> 00:29:16.710
of like I was kind of like drifting along. I

00:29:16.710 --> 00:29:19.309
didn't feel I was doing a lot in the gay community.

00:29:20.130 --> 00:29:23.950
And to a point, I didn't feel that I really...

00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:27.529
was part of the gay community. I'm with a partner

00:29:27.529 --> 00:29:31.309
that's a non -kinkster as well. And the gay community

00:29:31.309 --> 00:29:33.170
and, you know, the bars and things didn't hold

00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:35.730
a lot for us. You know, overpriced drinks, go

00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:37.690
there, you don't meet any friends or whatever.

00:29:38.009 --> 00:29:40.450
We're not there to cruise or pull. So like, okay,

00:29:40.490 --> 00:29:43.369
let's go home after spending like a million pounds

00:29:43.369 --> 00:29:48.869
on drinks. So again, so it got me more political

00:29:48.869 --> 00:29:51.710
as well. With a lot what's happening to the trans

00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:56.670
community at the moment. Yeah. Again, if we stand

00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:59.730
by and do nothing, then bad things happen. And

00:29:59.730 --> 00:30:02.349
like we keep saying, once they start going over

00:30:02.349 --> 00:30:05.589
one part of the community, what's next? Who are

00:30:05.589 --> 00:30:07.589
they going to get? So that's something that we're

00:30:07.589 --> 00:30:09.730
very passionate about as well. For me personally,

00:30:09.950 --> 00:30:11.849
it's got me more social. It's got me more political.

00:30:12.150 --> 00:30:14.869
So I didn't really go to prides. Now, any excuse

00:30:14.869 --> 00:30:19.009
to dress up in leather and wave a flag. And sometimes

00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:22.029
we're not always welcome because, again, we...

00:30:22.269 --> 00:30:24.490
You know, that they're like normal things. You

00:30:24.490 --> 00:30:28.190
know, like if you're adopting children and it

00:30:28.190 --> 00:30:32.210
normalises it. Yeah. And sometimes, you know,

00:30:32.230 --> 00:30:34.569
we often think it's our imagination, but quite

00:30:34.569 --> 00:30:37.049
often I think there was one pride, in fact two

00:30:37.049 --> 00:30:38.789
prides, where they asked all the kid community

00:30:38.789 --> 00:30:40.390
to march at the front. Brilliant, they marched

00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:43.410
at the front. In all the videos and that, it

00:30:43.410 --> 00:30:44.789
didn't appear because we were all at the front

00:30:44.789 --> 00:30:46.730
and it was cut out. It's easy to cut out and

00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:49.450
you get the boxes and things. Is it our imagination?

00:30:50.250 --> 00:30:54.009
We like to think it is, but it isn't. But there

00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:56.390
you go. But that's my opinion, my personal opinion.

00:30:56.470 --> 00:30:58.210
I remember the first Pride I met you. You might

00:30:58.210 --> 00:30:59.470
not remember because I looked super different

00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:02.369
then. But it was like four years ago, Newcastle

00:31:02.369 --> 00:31:04.750
Pride. And they'd got a sign outside the health

00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:07.170
and welfare zone saying no fetish were allowed.

00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:10.029
And I made a giant fuss and was messaging the

00:31:10.029 --> 00:31:11.769
guy who organised Pride and making trouble for

00:31:11.769 --> 00:31:14.359
him. Oh, I remember that now. Do you know what?

00:31:14.380 --> 00:31:16.559
I hesitated for one second before going and I

00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.480
just went in. Yeah. Yeah. And you think, what?

00:31:20.180 --> 00:31:22.099
Yeah. Yeah. I had nothing else to change into

00:31:22.099 --> 00:31:23.480
and I was signed up for a volunteering slot.

00:31:23.539 --> 00:31:27.339
So I was in there in latex. But again, they didn't

00:31:27.339 --> 00:31:29.559
stop us. There was nobody to police it. Yeah.

00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:32.400
But because there's always that debate of does

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.960
fetish revolve pride? And hell yes, it does.

00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.640
And the one thing I always say to people is,

00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.059
and it's the first time I saw. a rubber man or

00:31:43.059 --> 00:31:45.720
a leather man or a leather woman or was that

00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:48.900
a pride? And not being funny, people love us

00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:51.799
as well. Yeah. People want to see us. Again,

00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.680
you know, the pups, the leather guys, the rubber

00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:58.519
guys. And again, it is a political statement

00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.220
as well of going out in that as well. And you

00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:04.339
don't give a damn. I nearly swore then. You can

00:32:04.339 --> 00:32:06.180
definitely swear on this podcast. It is a very

00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:09.819
adult podcast. And I have to say, I've only been

00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:12.160
to a... A couple of prides, because I think there's

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:13.859
a little bit of that in me as well about being

00:32:13.859 --> 00:32:15.680
part of the queer community and being part of

00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.400
the kink community, but not being particularly

00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.400
active in it, kind of feeling like I should do

00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.539
more and, you know, kind of using the privilege

00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:24.460
that comes with looking like this sort of thing

00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:28.359
to do more. But I will also say at both of the

00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:31.299
prides I've been to, one of the happiest memories

00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:34.299
I have is sitting in Wetherspoons and seeing

00:32:34.299 --> 00:32:36.980
members of the Newcastle Leathermen just getting

00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:39.779
ready for pride in all of their leather, looking

00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:43.559
really... absolutely amazing and just being really

00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.759
proud of it as well it just makes me so happy

00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.299
yeah to see that for exactly that reason because

00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.380
if the leather community doesn't belong at pride

00:32:51.380 --> 00:32:54.680
then who the fuck does you know it's that sort

00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:56.900
of thing for me yeah and i also recognize that

00:32:56.900 --> 00:33:00.319
not everyone can yeah as well so again i kind

00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.460
of do it for them so it does give people a lot

00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:05.299
of confidence to see it normalized yeah if i

00:33:05.299 --> 00:33:07.980
can use that yeah horrible word normal but there

00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:12.230
you go So my only experience of this kind of

00:33:12.230 --> 00:33:14.809
community is through what people just call the

00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:16.670
kink scene or the kink community as if it's the

00:33:16.670 --> 00:33:19.210
only one and I know T that that has been for

00:33:19.210 --> 00:33:21.210
a lot of your experience that's been the same

00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:23.369
for you. Have you found that there are a lot

00:33:23.369 --> 00:33:26.750
of differences between the kink scene and leather

00:33:26.750 --> 00:33:28.690
communities? I'd say there are differences but

00:33:28.690 --> 00:33:31.690
they're more kind of stylistic and quite surface

00:33:31.690 --> 00:33:35.309
level. On the outside, the communities look very

00:33:35.309 --> 00:33:37.869
different. The leather scene is very out and

00:33:37.869 --> 00:33:41.009
proud. It's very public. A lot of us use our

00:33:41.009 --> 00:33:43.150
first names. I use my first name on the leather

00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:45.789
scene, whereas the FetLife community, as I tend

00:33:45.789 --> 00:33:49.009
to compartmentalise the two in my head now, because

00:33:49.009 --> 00:33:51.190
people also say the kink scene about aspects

00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:53.450
of the leather community and it stops me getting

00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:55.170
confused about who's going where and who's doing

00:33:55.170 --> 00:33:59.500
what. The FetLife community... I don't want to

00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:01.579
say we're secretive because that's not the right

00:34:01.579 --> 00:34:04.640
word, but there is definitely a layer of not

00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.259
exposing our community to the general vanilla

00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:09.760
population. Yeah. So munchies tend to run in

00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.659
private spaces. Events tend to happen in private

00:34:12.659 --> 00:34:15.719
venues. And you don't really get into mingling

00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.000
with the wider queer scene. Yeah. No, that makes

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.699
sense. And I definitely noticed that as well.

00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:23.960
And it's interesting you mentioned, obviously,

00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:26.340
you think of that community as being like the

00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:29.639
fet life scene. Do people from the leather community

00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.900
tend not to use FetLife much? Because I kind

00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:33.420
of assumed everyone would end up there at some

00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:35.880
point. A lot of people I meet just aren't on

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.099
FetLife. Yeah. I get the same when I trade at

00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.739
kink markets as well. People ask about events

00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:42.500
locally and I'll go, oh, yeah, sure, you can

00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:45.619
look on FetLife. And they go, on what? And I

00:34:45.619 --> 00:34:48.480
have to kind of unlearn that everyone is on it

00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:52.539
mentality. Yeah. Because on the gay scene, you've

00:34:52.539 --> 00:34:55.659
got entirely separate rope events and play events

00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:58.650
and all of these other things. There was a guy

00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:01.809
who came in 2022, I think, to give a talk at

00:35:01.809 --> 00:35:04.610
the Playmunch and he was from the leather scene

00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.030
in Minnesota. So he'd been to the Eagle the night

00:35:07.030 --> 00:35:08.610
before, which is like the big, like the bar in

00:35:08.610 --> 00:35:11.530
Newcastle. And then he'd come to the Playmunch

00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:12.929
the next day to give a talk and he was like,

00:35:12.989 --> 00:35:16.130
well, they're all there and you're all here and

00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:17.889
you don't know about them and they don't know

00:35:17.889 --> 00:35:21.360
about you. That in a nutshell, really. Yeah.

00:35:21.460 --> 00:35:23.300
It's fascinating because there's definitely an

00:35:23.300 --> 00:35:25.500
attitude I've found of people who, if you're

00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:27.679
not on FetLife and if you're not going to your

00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.000
local munch and if you haven't been seen playing

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:32.579
at your local play event, like you're not really

00:35:32.579 --> 00:35:35.119
kinky, like you're still a newbie, you're still

00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.900
figuring it out. We don't know you. We don't

00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:38.719
trust you. That. Get your endorsements on LinkedIn

00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.380
first. Yes. Very that. How have you found that

00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.179
sort of cultural difference between the two?

00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:47.260
Or is there an equivalent in leather? So I'm

00:35:47.260 --> 00:35:48.800
still fairly new. So take what I say with a pinch

00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:51.659
of salt. But I find in my personal experience,

00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.059
people take me at face value. People trust me

00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:57.119
to be honest about my skills. People trust me

00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.059
to go, actually, that is a massive divot in that

00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:02.079
boot. And I can't fix it without making it worse

00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.119
rather than just going for it and causing a disaster.

00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.219
And, you know, I take those people at face value.

00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:11.800
So if they say, you know, I want this done to

00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:13.579
my jacket and just a bit of a cleaner condition,

00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.340
I'm not going to expect anything more in either

00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:17.679
of it. That makes sense. Because I think that's

00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:19.469
something that... that we've talked about a couple

00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:21.269
of times on the podcast that there is people

00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:23.170
often think that the community they're in is

00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:25.690
the kink community and and that nothing else

00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:27.610
exists and are a little suspicious of anyone

00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:29.389
who claims to have experience and knowledge from

00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:32.329
outside that but i know when we had um ariel

00:36:32.329 --> 00:36:34.969
anderson on she was talking about how there is

00:36:34.969 --> 00:36:36.610
very much like a model and photographer community

00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:38.969
that a lot of them don't go to munches they don't

00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:40.630
go to play events but they all know each other

00:36:40.630 --> 00:36:43.230
and they all kind of vet on that basis and know

00:36:43.230 --> 00:36:46.250
people's reputation on that basis and i think

00:36:46.809 --> 00:36:48.750
The thing that I keep coming back to is everyone

00:36:48.750 --> 00:36:50.590
needs some kind of community and connection,

00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:52.429
like feeling like you're different from everyone

00:36:52.429 --> 00:36:53.869
else and not having connection to others who

00:36:53.869 --> 00:36:56.349
feel the same way is really hard. But those connections

00:36:56.349 --> 00:36:58.510
don't always have to look the same for other

00:36:58.510 --> 00:37:01.150
people. They can be whatever makes the most sense

00:37:01.150 --> 00:37:03.610
to you. Yeah, I think specifically in the boot

00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:06.210
camp community, your reputation is a lot more

00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:08.849
tangible than in other aspects because people

00:37:08.849 --> 00:37:10.610
see what you do, they see the result of what

00:37:10.610 --> 00:37:14.599
you do, and it's right there. Yeah. You know,

00:37:14.619 --> 00:37:16.360
you were describing before about some of the

00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:19.940
events that you run. And I was really struck

00:37:19.940 --> 00:37:22.619
by something you said about kind of some of the

00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:25.480
bars and the clubs don't want you there sometimes.

00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.599
I think that's something that we've kind of talked

00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:30.300
about and experienced within kind of organizing

00:37:30.300 --> 00:37:33.280
munchies. The struggle for venues is hard. The

00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.619
different approaches to what people say to the

00:37:35.619 --> 00:37:37.760
venue. And you end up in this really weird situation

00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:40.960
where if anyone asks you going to a gaming club.

00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.219
And it's like, okay, well, I know nothing about

00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:46.000
gaming. So if anybody challenges me, I'm going

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:48.500
to be talking about Monopoly. And for a community

00:37:48.500 --> 00:37:50.940
that values honesty so highly, it feels like

00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:52.599
a huge contradiction to me that we're going to

00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.920
disregard the consent of the venue owners to

00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:56.920
decide what happens in their space. Yeah, yeah.

00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.579
I will always run an event with the complete

00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:01.539
understanding of the venue for that reason. Yeah.

00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:05.139
Also, because I was once at a different event

00:38:05.139 --> 00:38:08.239
and someone who wasn't an attendee had managed

00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:09.780
to make their way in, walked up to me at the

00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:12.780
bar and just said, are you all swingers like

00:38:12.780 --> 00:38:19.940
i just went i had no idea what to say whereas

00:38:19.940 --> 00:38:23.000
if people attending other things i run know it's

00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.940
okay to say the staff you know we're a life drawing

00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:28.800
group we're a rope group any of this then it

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:31.340
just takes all of that pressure off yeah because

00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:33.000
the events that you run are quite visible aren't

00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:35.340
they i mean yeah you talked about the um weekend

00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:37.699
which i think was a very fancy restaurant it

00:38:37.699 --> 00:38:41.400
was we did tell them what we who we were a few

00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:43.619
days before when we paid the deposit and everything

00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.760
like that. It was all done and dusted. And do

00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:48.480
you know what? We didn't need to worry. And basically

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:50.500
the meal hadn't even ended and they said, you

00:38:50.500 --> 00:38:52.480
know, when are you next here? Which is what we

00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:56.980
wanted to hear. And they were great. There's

00:38:56.980 --> 00:38:58.840
another venue that we use for brunches quite

00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:01.760
regularly. And again, after the first time of

00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.579
us just, you know, like, you know, 20 -level

00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:05.099
guys setting it up. And it was like, oh, okay.

00:39:05.380 --> 00:39:07.440
And the next time they didn't ask for a deposit

00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.119
and it was all fine. To be fair, I've not had

00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:15.980
any issues in Newcastle with us. I've heard of

00:39:15.980 --> 00:39:18.179
other venues and other places. So we were looking

00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:22.039
for somewhere for a cigar social. Right. And

00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.000
we were just, like, you know, just sending emails

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.519
out and saying, OK, you've got an outdoor space,

00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:31.400
you know, would we be able to use it for a cigar

00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:34.880
social? And it was all fine until we said who

00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:38.030
we were. And then suddenly... we didn't get any

00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:40.170
replies or anything like that yeah yeah yeah

00:39:40.170 --> 00:39:42.030
but another venue was oh yep yep you're very

00:39:42.030 --> 00:39:43.929
welcome so it just depends and these weren't

00:39:43.929 --> 00:39:46.349
necessarily gay venues either but again it's

00:39:46.349 --> 00:39:48.949
just how how people perceive things as well or

00:39:48.949 --> 00:39:52.510
or the unknown that we're just trying to yeah

00:39:52.510 --> 00:39:55.409
almost normalize ourselves if we can be that

00:39:55.409 --> 00:39:58.349
word again yes and you almost want it to happen

00:39:58.349 --> 00:39:59.829
that kind of way around don't you because i think

00:39:59.829 --> 00:40:04.079
part of the You mentioned the consent of the

00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.320
venue earlier on. Part of the challenge with

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.659
keeping things secret is if the secret goes out,

00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.079
that causes you bigger problems in the future,

00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:14.559
whereas your approach seems to be going to a

00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:16.179
venue, this is who we are, this is what we want

00:40:16.179 --> 00:40:18.679
to do. And it's almost better if they say no,

00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:20.900
because at least you know then you're in a space

00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:22.860
where you're welcome, and that gives the people

00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:26.300
who come along a little bit more comfort and

00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:29.030
safety, I suppose. There's a security. From a

00:40:29.030 --> 00:40:30.829
host perspective as well, of knowing that your

00:40:30.829 --> 00:40:33.429
event can't be outed to the venue. Because I

00:40:33.429 --> 00:40:37.250
can't picture anything worse than mid -event,

00:40:37.250 --> 00:40:39.230
suddenly an angry bar manager comes up to me

00:40:39.230 --> 00:40:41.050
and says, right, all 30 of you have got to leave.

00:40:41.389 --> 00:40:43.690
Yeah, absolutely. If I might jump in as well

00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:45.789
as a lurker who happens to be sitting in the

00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:48.289
same room. Amazing. For anyone who is surprised

00:40:48.289 --> 00:40:50.389
at the lurker, this is V, who is mostly here

00:40:50.389 --> 00:40:51.869
just to hang out, but is going to join in now.

00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.500
Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said about

00:40:54.500 --> 00:40:56.739
the normality within a certain community. The

00:40:56.739 --> 00:40:59.619
leather scene is very open. It's, as I understand

00:40:59.619 --> 00:41:01.719
it, always been kind of founded to be quite open.

00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:06.059
Whereas the FetLife scene, as T says, is very

00:41:06.059 --> 00:41:09.039
secretive. It's got its very definitive way of

00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.460
doing things and it will stick to that and just

00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:16.679
kind of get that staying. And yeah, that was

00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:19.119
before the club was formed, that there was definitely

00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:21.780
guys and gals that played in leather. There's

00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:23.320
definitely a lot of people that play in rubber.

00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:26.280
And again, but there was no outlet for them.

00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:28.280
So, you know, they would think nothing of travelling

00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.360
to Berlin for a leather event or Manchester for

00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.320
a rubber event. Yeah. And sometimes when I say

00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:36.019
to people, sometimes it's easier in a different

00:41:36.019 --> 00:41:38.460
city or town the first time you do it than in

00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:41.530
your hometown. But there is a lot of people out

00:41:41.530 --> 00:41:44.010
there that show something. So there's a club

00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:46.570
night called DILF. I don't know if it's called

00:41:46.570 --> 00:41:49.110
DILF, though, because it's mostly full of younger

00:41:49.110 --> 00:41:53.510
disco buddies. Occasionally some old people like

00:41:53.510 --> 00:41:56.010
me that go to it. Like DILFs in training, mainly.

00:41:56.670 --> 00:41:59.750
When it came to Newcastle, indeed. But suddenly

00:41:59.750 --> 00:42:03.130
there was like, you know, like... People in harnesses

00:42:03.130 --> 00:42:06.389
and jockstraps. And I'd only seen that in Darklands

00:42:06.389 --> 00:42:09.690
before in Antwerp. Or you'd see it in San Francisco.

00:42:10.110 --> 00:42:13.829
Suddenly, Newcastle was kinky. Yeah, yeah. It

00:42:13.829 --> 00:42:16.170
was great to see that as well. And then suddenly,

00:42:16.250 --> 00:42:18.449
they just disappeared. And like, you know, well,

00:42:18.510 --> 00:42:20.530
then, you know, they're in a leather jockstrap.

00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:22.230
But where are they normally? And again, people

00:42:22.230 --> 00:42:24.349
come from around. And it is great to see that.

00:42:24.650 --> 00:42:27.030
in Newcastle at long last as well. And other

00:42:27.030 --> 00:42:29.309
things have come from that. I think one thing

00:42:29.309 --> 00:42:33.190
we do need is more inclusivity. It is still very

00:42:33.190 --> 00:42:35.650
much male dominated where DILF is a male only

00:42:35.650 --> 00:42:38.030
space. And that's something that going back to

00:42:38.030 --> 00:42:40.170
something that struck me with boot blacking is

00:42:40.170 --> 00:42:43.230
boot blacking is probably one of the most equal

00:42:43.230 --> 00:42:47.769
parts of the community where it isn't a Mr. Boot

00:42:47.769 --> 00:42:51.230
Black. It is boot black. And Wookiee won it two

00:42:51.230 --> 00:42:55.059
years ago. There's been many non -binary winners

00:42:55.059 --> 00:42:58.079
of it. There's trans, like international bootblacks

00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:01.380
as well, trans, non -binary, and they're just

00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:04.139
ahead of the game, is what I'd say as well. So

00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:08.639
like London Leather Dykes as well, you know,

00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:10.739
is run by somebody that is a very formidable

00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:14.730
bootblack. I think because... Boot blacking in

00:43:14.730 --> 00:43:16.610
its own thing is like a slightly newer scene.

00:43:16.829 --> 00:43:19.090
We don't have as much of the old guard baggage

00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:21.429
because we don't have an old guard. And that's

00:43:21.429 --> 00:43:23.829
it. And I think me personally, I look towards

00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:26.130
that. It's like one degree of separation where

00:43:26.130 --> 00:43:28.530
we both know people. And, you know, I was in

00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:33.829
Dublin and your name came up. Oh, gosh. The fear.

00:43:34.449 --> 00:43:38.010
It's all good. It's all good. You're being perceived

00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:41.150
internationally now. No, it is. It's all good.

00:43:42.090 --> 00:43:44.170
You mock as if you don't get that terror when

00:43:44.170 --> 00:43:45.590
you realise there's people listening to this

00:43:45.590 --> 00:43:48.570
all over the world. If you're listening from

00:43:48.570 --> 00:43:52.710
really far away, comment and freak us out. Yes,

00:43:52.750 --> 00:43:58.090
please do. Thanks. Thanks for that. How, with

00:43:58.090 --> 00:44:00.349
the Newcastle Leathermen and the leather community

00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:04.869
being more kind of open and visible, how can

00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:07.070
you kind of support people who are new to it

00:44:07.070 --> 00:44:09.599
who might be a little bit... Because there is

00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:11.239
that crossover, I suppose, isn't there? That

00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:14.579
fear of if you're entering a space for the first

00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:16.400
time or entering a community for the first time,

00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:19.000
that fear of being perceived, that fear of being

00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:21.300
hated and the potential social impact that it

00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:23.019
might. One thing that sometimes is perceived

00:44:23.019 --> 00:44:24.900
about the love community is that we're quite

00:44:24.900 --> 00:44:27.079
arrogant and we're quite clicky. I'm not saying

00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.170
that doesn't happen. But when people are coming

00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:32.050
into it and they suddenly think, and I felt the

00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:34.690
same as well, is that would I be welcome? I've

00:44:34.690 --> 00:44:37.469
not done it for very long. My park is not kinky.

00:44:37.550 --> 00:44:39.570
And then all these things and all these people

00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:41.190
have told me the same thing. And they might have

00:44:41.190 --> 00:44:44.329
10 ,000 followers on Instagram, be really a famous

00:44:44.329 --> 00:44:47.730
leather person. But again, everyone feels the

00:44:47.730 --> 00:44:50.739
same. has imposter syndrome as well they think

00:44:50.739 --> 00:44:54.360
oh god what am i doing so when someone's getting

00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:57.940
into so my dms are open so i'm on instagram um

00:44:57.940 --> 00:45:01.280
i'm back up 761 i just thought of that name and

00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:05.860
then it stuck so so it is it is a private instagram

00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:08.960
but if if i see that you're a kinkster or all

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.480
my dms are open so if you message me and i've

00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:13.599
met some some great friends some people that

00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:15.949
weren't leather people And now they love people

00:45:15.949 --> 00:45:17.530
with 10 ,000 followers or whatever and quite

00:45:17.530 --> 00:45:19.809
well known, like the UK and Europe or whatever

00:45:19.809 --> 00:45:23.530
like that. And it's great giving somebody the

00:45:23.530 --> 00:45:25.710
same start that I was given. When it comes to

00:45:25.710 --> 00:45:28.530
us, we're very much aware that people might be

00:45:28.530 --> 00:45:31.989
in the bar that are there for us, but too frightened

00:45:31.989 --> 00:45:34.449
to go. So I usually do a thing, oh, I've got

00:45:34.449 --> 00:45:37.070
my stickers. And I go around and say who I am,

00:45:37.190 --> 00:45:40.230
what we're doing. Do you want a sticker? Are

00:45:40.230 --> 00:45:42.730
you here for us? And quite often you do find

00:45:42.730 --> 00:45:44.849
that somebody is, but they're just too... shy

00:45:44.849 --> 00:45:47.309
to come across or too nervous right you've got

00:45:47.309 --> 00:45:49.710
that icebreaker as well um across our social

00:45:49.710 --> 00:45:52.369
media as well we do a mentoring system so we'll

00:45:52.369 --> 00:45:54.050
meet people outside we met people at their hotel

00:45:54.050 --> 00:45:56.210
rooms and brought them across and i've met people

00:45:56.210 --> 00:45:58.510
for coffee separately not in leather and and

00:45:58.510 --> 00:46:00.230
like you know that i'm not going to eat you or

00:46:00.230 --> 00:46:03.050
anything like that yeah not on a thursday anyway

00:46:03.050 --> 00:46:06.889
but and again and it's that part of it as well

00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:10.739
yeah so so again that that that We try. We don't

00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:12.460
always get it right, but we do try and nurture.

00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.920
And it's remembering what came before. Yeah.

00:46:14.980 --> 00:46:18.340
So there is a very grand person. He's 90 this

00:46:18.340 --> 00:46:21.679
year. And he's really looked after us. And he's

00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:26.719
patron of the ECMC as well. So Daddy Ian. And

00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:29.159
he's taken an active interest in us. You know,

00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.039
he's one of those legendary people. He lives

00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:34.179
in Manchester. And when you see him out, basically

00:46:34.179 --> 00:46:36.900
he's got so much knowledge about the community.

00:46:37.579 --> 00:46:40.320
And he knows so many people as well. So, again,

00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.139
I think that we had a question about Newcastle

00:46:42.139 --> 00:46:45.420
and he didn't know the answer, but he got his

00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:49.139
iPad out, started dutying of it. Yeah. message

00:46:49.139 --> 00:46:51.019
were coming back and he likes what we're doing

00:46:51.019 --> 00:46:52.380
as well so obviously that we're quite visible

00:46:52.380 --> 00:46:54.639
on social media but he loves it when we go to

00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.599
the theatre and we we sometimes are in a bit

00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:58.699
of leather we went to the rocky horror show nobody

00:46:58.699 --> 00:47:09.800
noticed us we're trying to normalize it and and

00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.380
say that that you know it we're a community as

00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:15.679
well i think that we we come back a few we've

00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:17.400
come back a few times to the idea of normalization

00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:19.860
and it's so important not because i personally

00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:22.099
have any desire to be normal in my life never

00:47:22.099 --> 00:47:26.610
have born weird but like no community no group

00:47:26.610 --> 00:47:29.750
no person has achieved acceptance and respect

00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:33.250
and equality without being visible like visibility

00:47:33.250 --> 00:47:35.170
can very much be a double -edged sword and come

00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:37.389
with a lot of risk but it is the only way to

00:47:37.389 --> 00:47:40.309
improve the situation and it's always a frustration

00:47:40.309 --> 00:47:44.320
of mine that it feels like almost as if the biggest

00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.800
opponent of kink being destigmatized is often

00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:50.219
other kinky people because not only do they not

00:47:50.219 --> 00:47:51.860
want to come out which is completely valid but

00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:53.440
they often don't want other people to either

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:55.980
and sort of treat it as like a risk of guilt

00:47:55.980 --> 00:47:58.699
by association like my my loud mouth and visible

00:47:58.699 --> 00:48:00.760
collar is going to cause problems for them and

00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:03.000
it's it seems like you guys have really got it

00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.579
right from my perspective yeah i'll say i have

00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:08.480
lost the fear i'm not gonna lie i just i just

00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.139
don't you know when people are like looking at

00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:11.739
me or whatever i'm talking to them like you know

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.280
And I'm talking in an open mouth. Oh, yeah, I've

00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:17.719
been wearing leather. I forgot that. Again, it's

00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:21.159
just normal. But that comes down to prides and

00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:23.059
things like that and people wanting to come over

00:48:23.059 --> 00:48:25.139
to you. And to be honest with you, we are vain

00:48:25.139 --> 00:48:26.780
creatures as well. We haven't spent all this

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:28.820
money on it not to have pictures taken of us.

00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:32.239
Yeah. And again, so you usually find that, you

00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.139
know, you will stop for a photo with people or

00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:37.099
whatever and they just want that. So, yeah, one

00:48:37.099 --> 00:48:40.179
of my favourites is two ladies holding on to

00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:43.570
me. And it was at Durham. It's like, you smell

00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:50.409
like new shoes. It is so much fun. I have never,

00:48:50.510 --> 00:48:53.750
I've been going to Pride since, I think, 2009

00:48:53.750 --> 00:48:56.449
might have been my first Pride. I had never seen

00:48:56.449 --> 00:48:58.250
myself in any photos from a Pride other than

00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:00.550
the ones I'd taken until last year. I went wearing

00:49:00.550 --> 00:49:03.369
a pig hood with a nose hook in and I was in so

00:49:03.369 --> 00:49:05.110
many pictures all over social media. Everyone

00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:09.829
wanted the pig. It was great. You're popular.

00:49:10.250 --> 00:49:14.210
Yeah. My nose was in pain for a while, though,

00:49:14.230 --> 00:49:16.110
having a nose hook in for about six hours straight.

00:49:17.050 --> 00:49:18.730
It was fine at the time because I had two bottles

00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:22.269
of wine as well, but the next day... And I remember

00:49:22.269 --> 00:49:24.170
asking you through the day, like, are you sure

00:49:24.170 --> 00:49:25.690
you're okay? Do you want to take it out and have

00:49:25.690 --> 00:49:27.929
a bit of a rest? No, no, it's fine. It's fine.

00:49:27.949 --> 00:49:32.510
I'm having a good time. Yeah. And then we woke

00:49:32.510 --> 00:49:33.969
up and I saw you in the infested cupboard the

00:49:33.969 --> 00:49:36.010
next day and you were suffering a little bit.

00:49:36.130 --> 00:49:37.750
Yeah. So this is probably going to be mainly

00:49:37.750 --> 00:49:39.550
all about you, T, because we're going to talk

00:49:39.550 --> 00:49:42.630
about some boot blacking. Do you want to first

00:49:42.630 --> 00:49:45.670
tell us what boot blacking is? I feel like some

00:49:45.670 --> 00:49:47.929
of the clue is in the name, but I would like

00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:50.730
to hear more. Yes, so boot blacking originally

00:49:50.730 --> 00:49:55.070
came from shoeshiners. So in the olden days,

00:49:55.190 --> 00:49:57.250
we didn't have indoor plumbing. The streets were

00:49:57.250 --> 00:49:59.130
disgusting, but everyone still wanted clean shoes.

00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:02.449
So you would see a shoeshine boy or a boot black

00:50:02.449 --> 00:50:05.750
on basically every street corner. These later

00:50:05.750 --> 00:50:09.150
moved into barbers, especially in America. And

00:50:09.150 --> 00:50:11.190
that was when the term boot black really took

00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:14.489
off, I think. And they would actually have competitions.

00:50:14.670 --> 00:50:17.489
So even back then, there was an element of this

00:50:17.489 --> 00:50:19.789
is a skill we have and something that you can

00:50:19.789 --> 00:50:23.389
be incredibly good at. So they would have competitions

00:50:23.389 --> 00:50:25.010
in these barbershops for who was the boot black

00:50:25.010 --> 00:50:26.889
for that particular city, which is something

00:50:26.889 --> 00:50:29.570
that we now do. We have the UK boot blacks and

00:50:29.570 --> 00:50:31.190
we have the title holders around the world. On

00:50:31.190 --> 00:50:33.630
the scene, it's more, I think, an act of service.

00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:37.340
a community thing than an act of play a lot of

00:50:37.340 --> 00:50:40.139
the time so i will happily shine shoes for a

00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:42.860
person i've never met before because we've communicated

00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:45.960
what our expectations are ahead of time and what

00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:48.699
i'm there for is to keep their gear in good condition

00:50:48.699 --> 00:50:51.000
to keep it looking its best to keep them looking

00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:54.119
their best and you know maybe just give a break

00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:56.679
in like a quite noisy hectic event a lot of people

00:50:56.679 --> 00:50:59.079
just enjoy having 20 minutes to just sit down

00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.219
and be gently fussed over yeah you know Club

00:51:02.219 --> 00:51:04.159
events can be quite loud, they're very bright,

00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:07.739
they can be a bit much. And just being able to

00:51:07.739 --> 00:51:09.880
take a little break while still being a part

00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.599
of the night is really valuable to some people.

00:51:13.139 --> 00:51:15.920
Yeah, I can imagine that. What got you into that?

00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:17.820
Because it is, as you say, it's starting to become

00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:19.480
a little bit more popular now, but it is still

00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.579
quite a niche one, isn't it? Yeah, so when I

00:51:22.579 --> 00:51:25.280
was growing up, I was a sea cadet. So I got really

00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:27.739
good at mirror shining shoes because that was

00:51:27.739 --> 00:51:31.030
just a thing that we did. And that was, for the

00:51:31.030 --> 00:51:33.809
longest time, just another thing in my service

00:51:33.809 --> 00:51:36.369
submission toolbox. So I could sit in front of

00:51:36.369 --> 00:51:38.750
a movie and make my Dom's boots really shiny

00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:42.190
before he goes out for the night. And then I

00:51:42.190 --> 00:51:44.510
started finding more and more about boot blacking

00:51:44.510 --> 00:51:47.429
online. There's been quite a few workshops. There's

00:51:47.429 --> 00:51:49.389
a boot black munch in Birmingham that I went

00:51:49.389 --> 00:51:51.369
to, which really opened my eyes and pushed all

00:51:51.369 --> 00:51:54.150
the happy buttons in my brain. And I went, oh,

00:51:54.250 --> 00:51:57.590
there's actually more to this than just one act

00:51:57.590 --> 00:52:00.619
of service. So that was when I started exploring

00:52:00.619 --> 00:52:04.079
more, looking into the culture, the scene, reaching

00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.139
out to Newcastle Leathermen and, you know, actually

00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:10.219
bootblacking at the socials. Yeah, that's amazing.

00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:13.699
You said it's something that is often very much

00:52:13.699 --> 00:52:16.920
an act of service rather than play. I know for

00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:19.900
me, service can sometimes feel like it sort of

00:52:19.900 --> 00:52:21.880
taps into the kind of flow state, productive,

00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:26.030
useful brain more than the... sexy hot this is

00:52:26.030 --> 00:52:29.130
super fun as a kink brain it kind of sits in

00:52:29.130 --> 00:52:30.710
a different place is bootblacking like that for

00:52:30.710 --> 00:52:33.130
you or can it cross over into more kind of intimate

00:52:33.130 --> 00:52:35.210
feelings for me at the socials it's definitely

00:52:35.210 --> 00:52:38.190
very much that space um it can cross over if

00:52:38.190 --> 00:52:39.889
i'm doing something more private with someone

00:52:39.889 --> 00:52:42.190
i have a connection with and i know for some

00:52:42.190 --> 00:52:45.530
people it is just more of an open thing um i

00:52:45.530 --> 00:52:47.710
would say if anything i'm probably a little more

00:52:47.710 --> 00:52:53.309
prudish than some bootblacks i know um you know

00:52:53.309 --> 00:52:55.750
a lot of people will be more open to maybe exploring

00:52:55.750 --> 00:52:57.610
a connection on the night at the stand than i

00:52:57.610 --> 00:52:59.849
might particularly be yeah it's very much a personal

00:52:59.849 --> 00:53:03.670
choice it's like rope or impact or any other

00:53:03.670 --> 00:53:06.650
kink there's no this is how you must do it and

00:53:06.650 --> 00:53:08.530
this is what you must get from it it's just about

00:53:08.530 --> 00:53:10.489
what brings you and the other person you're with

00:53:10.489 --> 00:53:13.889
joy yeah it's something that I think it's always

00:53:13.889 --> 00:53:15.690
so personal with any kink, isn't it? Whether

00:53:15.690 --> 00:53:18.849
it fits in the sort of sexual box, the non -sexual

00:53:18.849 --> 00:53:21.429
but still very intimate box, or the this is just

00:53:21.429 --> 00:53:23.889
a fun, weird hobby that I have. Yeah. There's

00:53:23.889 --> 00:53:26.650
a whole sort of spectrum there. But I know when

00:53:26.650 --> 00:53:28.369
I talk about having a service kink, people are

00:53:28.369 --> 00:53:29.929
often like, so you're like super horny doing

00:53:29.929 --> 00:53:31.650
the washing up. And it's like, no, that doesn't.

00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:33.699
That doesn't sit in that box. Nothing is hotter

00:53:33.699 --> 00:53:39.440
than unplugging the box. But then if Mix makes

00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:41.699
me clean the entire house wearing a bikini and

00:53:41.699 --> 00:53:43.579
verbally degrades me for the room not being clean

00:53:43.579 --> 00:53:45.440
enough while I'm doing it, then it goes back

00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:48.099
in the sexy box. It's one of those things where

00:53:48.099 --> 00:53:50.760
context and individual can both make a big impact,

00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:53.480
I think. 100%. And I'd say bootblacking for me

00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:56.059
comes from the same place. Yeah. And what do

00:53:56.059 --> 00:53:59.219
you most get from it? Is it... just like any

00:53:59.219 --> 00:54:00.860
other service or has it gone beyond that now

00:54:00.860 --> 00:54:03.119
and become its own thing for you i think it's

00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:05.340
very much become its own thing it's community

00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:07.760
i know i'm just adding another one to the community

00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:13.199
bingo um having like a place and a role in newcastle

00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.099
leatherman has been something that's really valuable

00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:18.260
to me um especially as someone who was not a

00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:20.099
man turning up and knowing what my position is

00:54:20.099 --> 00:54:22.000
in the group just makes my life a lot easier

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:27.079
and makes socializing a lot easier and like you

00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:29.130
said it just ticks off the useful brain because

00:54:29.130 --> 00:54:31.090
i'm not just useful to the person in front of

00:54:31.090 --> 00:54:33.909
me in the chair i'm useful to the whole group

00:54:33.909 --> 00:54:36.909
it makes me feel like i'm contributing like i've

00:54:36.909 --> 00:54:38.769
earned my place there a little bit more than

00:54:38.769 --> 00:54:40.909
just turning up and having a few drinks and a

00:54:40.909 --> 00:54:42.869
crack on definitely yeah i think a lot of people

00:54:42.869 --> 00:54:44.849
use the word community which we are using a lot

00:54:44.849 --> 00:54:46.889
this episode people throw the word around and

00:54:46.889 --> 00:54:50.130
what they mean is a place to go and do stuff

00:54:50.130 --> 00:54:54.159
where What you're talking about and what I always

00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:56.380
try to look for an opportunity for is a chance

00:54:56.380 --> 00:54:58.260
to actually be part of community, contribute

00:54:58.260 --> 00:55:00.940
something, like pull your weight in some way.

00:55:00.980 --> 00:55:02.460
And it can be something small. It can just be

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:04.059
making someone feel welcome at their first munch

00:55:04.059 --> 00:55:06.099
or whatever. You don't have to run an event or

00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:08.960
do education or offer service in the way that

00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:11.599
you do with boot blacking. But doing something

00:55:11.599 --> 00:55:13.460
that's actually giving something back, not just

00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:16.480
taking, is what makes it the difference between

00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:17.880
having a place to go and having a community.

00:55:18.349 --> 00:55:20.489
Yeah. And there's a really good feeling having

00:55:20.489 --> 00:55:22.710
a skill that you've worked hard for and developed

00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:25.489
over a long time and getting to use that in a

00:55:25.489 --> 00:55:27.590
way that makes people feel really good. Yeah.

00:55:28.010 --> 00:55:31.210
Is boot blacking something that you, I know you

00:55:31.210 --> 00:55:32.909
said you'd learned like the actual, the skills

00:55:32.909 --> 00:55:35.190
of shining shoes through Sea Cadets. Is that

00:55:35.190 --> 00:55:37.469
something that happens within kink spaces as

00:55:37.469 --> 00:55:39.369
well? Is there sort of boot black like classes

00:55:39.369 --> 00:55:41.289
and workshops that people go to? There is a boot

00:55:41.289 --> 00:55:44.070
black munch. I believe there are workshops. It's

00:55:44.070 --> 00:55:46.429
not something I see a lot of on scene. Like I've

00:55:46.429 --> 00:55:48.780
been approached to do. boot blacking scenes in

00:55:48.780 --> 00:55:51.639
the past but there's always been like at more

00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:54.019
traditional fet life play events a few years

00:55:54.019 --> 00:55:55.880
back there were always concerns about sort of

00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:58.460
the space it would take up and you know the paraffin

00:55:58.460 --> 00:56:00.579
the polish smells like some people don't like

00:56:00.579 --> 00:56:04.159
that and just kind of where it would fit because

00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:06.380
it's not something that you you necessarily walk

00:56:06.380 --> 00:56:10.579
into a dungeon and go that's really hot it's

00:56:10.579 --> 00:56:11.960
a shame there's that resistance to it though

00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:13.820
and i think i mean i know we've attended a lot

00:56:13.820 --> 00:56:15.320
of the same events in the past and there does

00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.869
seem to be within certain certain events a kind

00:56:18.869 --> 00:56:21.010
of reluctance to have anything new or different

00:56:21.010 --> 00:56:23.610
or that some people might not like rather than

00:56:23.610 --> 00:56:25.110
thinking actually the whole point of these events

00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:26.630
is we're all doing the stuff that a lot of people

00:56:26.630 --> 00:56:29.469
won't like to see and we we make it work i think

00:56:29.469 --> 00:56:31.510
in more in more recent history it's met with

00:56:31.510 --> 00:56:34.969
a lot more curiosity yeah it used to be um the

00:56:34.969 --> 00:56:37.530
first public boot blacking scene i did with my

00:56:37.530 --> 00:56:40.329
partner was you slightly further down south and

00:56:40.329 --> 00:56:41.909
it was just outside in the smoking area on a

00:56:41.909 --> 00:56:43.909
bench and then i looked up and suddenly we had

00:56:43.909 --> 00:56:48.119
a crowd and i was like why is everyone looking

00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:50.780
a lot of people had questions or like you know

00:56:50.780 --> 00:56:53.199
that was cool can we ask you more about it so

00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:56.780
that was fun yeah that's amazing um it's something

00:56:56.780 --> 00:56:59.199
i think it's really nice to see anything a little

00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:00.940
bit different happen at events it keeps things

00:57:00.940 --> 00:57:03.219
more interesting it's almost like you come from

00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:05.539
the vanilla world where you don't see any of

00:57:05.539 --> 00:57:07.119
the things you want to do and then you come into

00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:09.360
kink space and you see all the things you want

00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:11.300
to do at first and then you've been coming for

00:57:11.300 --> 00:57:13.309
a couple of years and it's like Now I want to

00:57:13.309 --> 00:57:14.809
see something different. I want to see something

00:57:14.809 --> 00:57:16.409
interesting. I want to see something that I haven't

00:57:16.409 --> 00:57:18.090
experienced before. I want to see something I

00:57:18.090 --> 00:57:19.269
don't like that makes me a bit uncomfortable.

00:57:19.510 --> 00:57:22.469
You know, you want those experiences. So anything

00:57:22.469 --> 00:57:24.170
that adds that variety, I think is really, really

00:57:24.170 --> 00:57:26.530
cool. How have you found that? Because I think

00:57:26.530 --> 00:57:28.550
both of you mentioned that it was something that

00:57:28.550 --> 00:57:30.269
Newcastle Leathermen were really looking for,

00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:33.030
was to have boot blacks involved. How has that

00:57:33.030 --> 00:57:35.329
been coming into that space where it's... People

00:57:35.329 --> 00:57:36.969
aren't just curious and interested, but actively

00:57:36.969 --> 00:57:39.630
looking for you. The first time I came with the

00:57:39.630 --> 00:57:41.369
intention to actually set up a boot black stand,

00:57:41.469 --> 00:57:44.210
I was really nervous. I actually messaged Duncan

00:57:44.210 --> 00:57:46.869
beforehand because I didn't want to be presumptuous,

00:57:46.869 --> 00:57:48.929
just turning up with my box of polish and everything,

00:57:49.090 --> 00:57:51.570
being like, right, sit down, I'm ready to go.

00:57:53.389 --> 00:57:55.590
So, yeah, we had a little discussion about it

00:57:55.590 --> 00:57:57.489
and where it would be best to... And again, it's

00:57:57.489 --> 00:57:59.909
still fairly new for us as well. So I think that's

00:57:59.909 --> 00:58:03.329
something that we need to promote more and do

00:58:03.329 --> 00:58:05.780
more. They might make a sign for the next social.

00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:08.380
But even us putting it on social media before,

00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:11.360
I just remind people. Culture -wise, if you go

00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:13.980
to a bigger venue or a more established venue,

00:58:14.139 --> 00:58:16.079
then there's an expectation for boot black to

00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.940
be there, an expectation to use them. But with

00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:21.480
us, we're still very newbie. And again, it's

00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:23.780
just expanding out. But we have got a great space

00:58:23.780 --> 00:58:26.460
in the venue we use at the moment. I'm just thinking

00:58:26.460 --> 00:58:27.920
about what you're saying there is that the boot

00:58:27.920 --> 00:58:30.699
blacking is much more visible as well. People

00:58:30.699 --> 00:58:32.940
promoting it as well, the competitions. And there

00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:35.059
is an expectation if you go somewhere. So I was

00:58:35.059 --> 00:58:38.039
at Torremolinos Fetish Weekend and it was raining.

00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:41.639
And I walked past one of the venues and underneath

00:58:41.639 --> 00:58:44.340
an umbrella was a leather guy being boot blacked.

00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.059
Nice. And then it was just, to me it is fairly

00:58:47.059 --> 00:58:49.760
normal, but I remember going to Darklands and

00:58:49.760 --> 00:58:52.179
my eyes being opened and talking to so many people

00:58:52.179 --> 00:58:54.059
I'd seen online and getting like... You know,

00:58:54.099 --> 00:58:55.880
fangirling is what I do. I'm famous for that

00:58:55.880 --> 00:58:57.900
as well. Like, calm down. Calm down, Duncan.

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:01.940
And having great conversations as well with people

00:59:01.940 --> 00:59:04.820
that I had talked to online and meeting in the

00:59:04.820 --> 00:59:07.659
flesh for the first time and exchanging pin badges

00:59:07.659 --> 00:59:09.440
and things. And where was I going with this?

00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:12.199
I do ramble. That was it. So basically, they

00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:14.300
were hosting competitions. Like, you know, I

00:59:14.300 --> 00:59:15.820
think they had some boots that really messed

00:59:15.820 --> 00:59:19.210
up on purpose. Who cleaned them the fastest as

00:59:19.210 --> 00:59:22.130
well? And it was like, you know, and giving damaged

00:59:22.130 --> 00:59:24.030
boots and things like that and just testing the

00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:26.409
skills. It really put it to the forefront and

00:59:26.409 --> 00:59:29.250
it was an important part of Darklands. And I

00:59:29.250 --> 00:59:32.530
went to San Francisco. I went to Berlin. Huge

00:59:32.530 --> 00:59:36.369
areas given to boot blacking as well and queues

00:59:36.369 --> 00:59:38.570
and waiting for them. So there is a lot more

00:59:38.570 --> 00:59:40.730
value put onto it. And to be honest, we need

00:59:40.730 --> 00:59:43.289
to put more value on it as well. Yeah. And get

00:59:43.289 --> 00:59:47.019
more people's boots out as well. I think the

00:59:47.019 --> 00:59:49.900
first time that I ever had T saw out a pair of

00:59:49.900 --> 00:59:52.119
my boots, they were a set of, and some people

00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:53.519
in the audience will probably know the type,

00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:56.360
the very old, I think, German para boots. They

00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.199
meet every single boot safety standard you can

00:59:58.199 --> 01:00:01.420
imagine, and then some. But I'd basically not

01:00:01.420 --> 01:00:03.239
taken care of them at all. And I remember being

01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:05.699
so impressed at what T managed to actually do

01:00:05.699 --> 01:00:08.050
to them. You could literally see your face in

01:00:08.050 --> 01:00:11.130
them by the time they were done. Somewhere there's

01:00:11.130 --> 01:00:13.170
a before and after photo where one of them is

01:00:13.170 --> 01:00:16.030
completely chewed up. The front of it's been

01:00:16.030 --> 01:00:18.409
pitted by rocks and sticks and all kinds of nonsense

01:00:18.409 --> 01:00:21.510
like that. And the other's just, it's worn, but

01:00:21.510 --> 01:00:24.230
it looks good. It looks like it's been worn and

01:00:24.230 --> 01:00:26.789
taken care of, not worn and just let to fester.

01:00:27.630 --> 01:00:31.070
Oh, I like that word, fester. That was too much

01:00:31.070 --> 01:00:33.730
praise. You have to cut that bit out. You have

01:00:33.730 --> 01:00:38.110
gone bright red. Because it's a really skilled

01:00:38.110 --> 01:00:40.230
thing to do, isn't it? I wouldn't know where

01:00:40.230 --> 01:00:44.369
to begin. I have my kit. I should probably learn

01:00:44.369 --> 01:00:46.409
some basics. I've got some quite nice leather

01:00:46.409 --> 01:00:48.550
boots and a leather jacket and I simply do not

01:00:48.550 --> 01:00:50.730
do anything to them. They just, they do what

01:00:50.730 --> 01:00:53.750
they do. Because it is, you know, my experience

01:00:53.750 --> 01:00:57.389
of cleaning shoes is the rubbish stuff that you

01:00:57.389 --> 01:00:59.130
get from Tesco and just kind of rub over it and

01:00:59.130 --> 01:01:00.550
stuff like that, which makes you feel itchy,

01:01:00.630 --> 01:01:02.409
doesn't it? I can see you getting quite mad about

01:01:02.409 --> 01:01:06.480
that. There was someone who had just done that

01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:08.619
over their vest at the Newcastle Leather Weekend

01:01:08.619 --> 01:01:12.000
a couple of weeks ago. And one of the other boot

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:13.679
blacks actually said someone was walking past

01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:14.980
because there was just like this little sheen

01:01:14.980 --> 01:01:17.139
on their shoulder. She went, have you spilled

01:01:17.139 --> 01:01:20.059
something on yourself there? And I went, no,

01:01:20.139 --> 01:01:22.559
it's the little polishy sponge. And he just went,

01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:26.320
come back and see me later. So you're not using

01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:28.179
the little Kiwi sticks then? Definitely not.

01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:36.360
Can't. Oh no, I'm offended too. Seeing how we

01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:38.599
treat our leather. Need a pair of shoes with

01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:44.719
those. It's been a lot of fun boot blacking with

01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:47.000
Newcastle Leathermen because like Duncan says,

01:01:47.099 --> 01:01:49.900
we are just feeling it out as a collective. The

01:01:49.900 --> 01:01:53.019
first night I set the stand up, the second person

01:01:53.019 --> 01:01:55.119
who got in my chair was more nervous than I was.

01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:59.500
He'd never sat for a boot black before and we

01:01:59.500 --> 01:02:01.840
just... You're like, it's all right, we'll just

01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:06.380
learn together. This is fine. Nervous about what

01:02:06.380 --> 01:02:07.940
you might do to their boots or nervous about

01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:11.659
the setting, I suppose? I think the setting,

01:02:11.699 --> 01:02:13.960
it's hard not to feel a little bit pressured.

01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:17.500
Like some of these guys' boots are horrendously

01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:20.739
expensive. A guy sat for me at the leather weekend

01:02:20.739 --> 01:02:22.840
who had just chipped his on the way up on the

01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:25.480
train. And I looked at it and my first reaction

01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:28.960
was just quiet horror. And he was really happy

01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:31.380
with the repair I did. It was all fine. I had

01:02:31.380 --> 01:02:33.960
everything I needed. Right. But just the initial

01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:37.659
moment of, you know how important everyone's

01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:41.320
gear is to them. Yeah. And the last thing you

01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:45.260
want to do is cause damage or just make things

01:02:45.260 --> 01:02:48.380
worse than they were. Yeah. yeah I imagine there's

01:02:48.380 --> 01:02:50.659
like the double pressure within the leather community

01:02:50.659 --> 01:02:52.500
that one you know a lot of this stuff is really

01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:55.159
expensive and some of it really old as well but

01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:57.659
also it's so personal to people it's something

01:02:57.659 --> 01:03:00.099
that they really are personally invested in where

01:03:00.099 --> 01:03:01.739
someone where that's not part of their community

01:03:01.739 --> 01:03:03.400
and part of their identity who owns a really

01:03:03.400 --> 01:03:05.719
expensive leather jacket for example they're

01:03:05.719 --> 01:03:06.760
going to care about it because they've spent

01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:08.619
hundreds of pounds on it but it's not like a

01:03:08.619 --> 01:03:11.829
part of them yeah I think it must be a lot a

01:03:11.829 --> 01:03:13.789
lot more pressure within that space especially

01:03:13.789 --> 01:03:15.010
if you go back to what you were saying earlier

01:03:15.010 --> 01:03:16.510
on about kind of leather which has either been

01:03:16.510 --> 01:03:18.949
gifted or earned as part of the community it's

01:03:18.949 --> 01:03:20.510
like you don't you want to get that right don't

01:03:20.510 --> 01:03:22.809
you make sure it's but on a positive as well

01:03:22.809 --> 01:03:24.869
is that there is that trust and there is that

01:03:24.869 --> 01:03:27.849
link as well yeah yeah so so basically that that

01:03:27.849 --> 01:03:30.550
that you do have that symbiosis as well between

01:03:30.550 --> 01:03:33.309
the boot black your gear and yourself yeah and

01:03:33.309 --> 01:03:35.650
it just runs there isn't necessary sexual either

01:03:35.650 --> 01:03:39.289
but again it it is is that part of being and

01:03:39.289 --> 01:03:41.400
it does Does come with that trust. So when are

01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:45.800
you entering the Boot Black competition? Approximately

01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:54.860
2045. No current plans. Being a title holder

01:03:54.860 --> 01:03:57.679
comes with an enormous responsibility. Right.

01:03:57.840 --> 01:03:59.880
I don't think I'm ready to consider at this point.

01:03:59.980 --> 01:04:02.099
Previous winners have set up things like the

01:04:02.099 --> 01:04:04.659
Boot Black Munch. Right. Wookiee, who's the current

01:04:04.659 --> 01:04:06.699
title holder, is travelling to every leather

01:04:06.699 --> 01:04:09.960
event in the UK. Oh, wow. To support them. Right.

01:04:10.940 --> 01:04:13.699
I just do not have the time to even think about

01:04:13.699 --> 01:04:15.380
that before I even look at the technical skills.

01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:21.820
Do you know what? That's fair. Yeah. That's totally

01:04:21.820 --> 01:04:23.699
fair. I think I'd asked everything I could think

01:04:23.699 --> 01:04:25.860
of for that section. So over to you, Mix. Oh,

01:04:25.900 --> 01:04:27.760
God, you gave me the really hard one. I genuinely

01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:31.659
don't know how to start. Well, I have put several

01:04:31.659 --> 01:04:33.880
prompts and suggested questions in there, so

01:04:33.880 --> 01:04:38.900
I'm sure you'll do amazing. This is what happens.

01:04:39.019 --> 01:04:41.099
This is like a little bit behind the scenes.

01:04:41.179 --> 01:04:44.559
This is top -notch retting. Well done. And they

01:04:44.559 --> 01:04:48.059
also know this because I will fully confess that

01:04:48.059 --> 01:04:49.679
I often look at the outline 10 minutes before

01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:55.860
we start. If that, yeah. If that. Thanks, V.

01:04:58.139 --> 01:05:01.679
We have talked a lot. today about being part

01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:03.760
of the kink community being part of queer community

01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:07.119
and i guess i'm always interested to think about

01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:09.360
the connection or the overlap between those two

01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:11.280
kind of thinking about kind of your part parts

01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:14.239
of the leather community do you see that as something

01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:17.679
distinct from or part of your kink and or queer

01:05:17.679 --> 01:05:21.460
identity does that make sense it does i do so

01:05:21.460 --> 01:05:23.800
that gives me a heritage and a legacy behind

01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:26.360
it as well so so there's there's many posters

01:05:26.360 --> 01:05:28.630
like um like the leather archives and things

01:05:28.630 --> 01:05:30.570
like that, regularly post things from the past

01:05:30.570 --> 01:05:32.829
as well. And again, there's a lot of documentation

01:05:32.829 --> 01:05:35.269
as well. So we do look to the past because you

01:05:35.269 --> 01:05:36.869
can't move forward without it. And there's a

01:05:36.869 --> 01:05:38.909
lot of great people that have come before us

01:05:38.909 --> 01:05:42.050
and done things. And then we're just forwarding

01:05:42.050 --> 01:05:45.829
that as well. And it has been part of the queer

01:05:45.829 --> 01:05:49.269
community for the last, well, almost 70 years.

01:05:49.570 --> 01:05:52.110
Starting off, you know, in the quiet back rooms

01:05:52.110 --> 01:05:54.590
and that, right through to being on a stage.

01:05:55.190 --> 01:05:57.670
and winning Mr. Leather Universe, basically.

01:05:58.130 --> 01:06:01.670
Yeah, that makes sense. How about for you, T?

01:06:01.989 --> 01:06:04.369
This is a very big question. It is a big question,

01:06:04.409 --> 01:06:07.550
yeah. I think it's slightly different for me

01:06:07.550 --> 01:06:09.769
because while I do relate to all the things Duncan

01:06:09.769 --> 01:06:14.110
has said, especially as someone newer, having

01:06:14.110 --> 01:06:17.289
that heritage and lineage to fall back on and

01:06:17.289 --> 01:06:19.469
know exactly where I am and what I'm doing and

01:06:19.469 --> 01:06:22.599
where I'm going is really useful. I feel like

01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:24.380
it's slightly different to my overall identity

01:06:24.380 --> 01:06:26.800
as a queer person because leather is just one

01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:28.719
part of who I am and being queer is just one

01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:31.059
part of who I am. And being into rope and running

01:06:31.059 --> 01:06:35.739
events is just another part. Well, I got that

01:06:35.739 --> 01:06:37.380
because that's where you're at at the moment.

01:06:37.539 --> 01:06:40.280
Yeah. So give it 10, 20 years time when you're

01:06:40.280 --> 01:06:42.500
writing books and doing seminars and things like

01:06:42.500 --> 01:06:44.760
that. about what you've done but again that could

01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:47.019
be part of where you're going but you are somewhere

01:06:47.019 --> 01:06:49.780
now and everything you do is adding into the

01:06:49.780 --> 01:06:52.820
community everything you do is current now and

01:06:52.820 --> 01:06:54.619
then somebody will relate to that in the future

01:06:54.619 --> 01:06:57.239
and look back on it as well yeah like i don't

01:06:57.239 --> 01:06:59.079
think any of us are finished objects you know

01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:01.400
we're all just finding our way as best we can

01:07:01.400 --> 01:07:03.719
working out who we are and where we're going

01:07:03.719 --> 01:07:06.139
and what we're buying next so in 10 years time

01:07:06.139 --> 01:07:09.880
when you've got the capacity for the boot black

01:07:09.880 --> 01:07:14.010
title that's the Yeah, by then I'll have it all

01:07:14.010 --> 01:07:16.269
figured out. You'll be a complete person. Because

01:07:16.269 --> 01:07:18.110
sometimes, I think it goes back to what you were

01:07:18.110 --> 01:07:20.070
saying when we were talking earlier on about

01:07:20.070 --> 01:07:22.289
the no fetish wear at Pride debate, isn't it?

01:07:22.309 --> 01:07:24.909
It's that challenge from kind of either vanilla

01:07:24.909 --> 01:07:27.309
queer people or kind of kinky straight people

01:07:27.309 --> 01:07:29.710
and almost kind of having to fight for that acceptance

01:07:29.710 --> 01:07:31.469
of actually all those different parts of us are

01:07:31.469 --> 01:07:32.969
valid and they should all be visible and they

01:07:32.969 --> 01:07:37.030
should all be seen and to use the word that we

01:07:37.030 --> 01:07:39.489
keep using, normalised. Normalised as part of

01:07:39.489 --> 01:07:45.510
our community. to really go for the bingo. Normalize

01:07:45.510 --> 01:07:47.050
as part of our community and exposure therapy

01:07:47.050 --> 01:07:50.510
for everyone else. It's sub -normalize a word.

01:07:51.630 --> 01:07:54.369
You've just given us all an identity crisis.

01:07:55.449 --> 01:07:59.929
What are we? Yeah, because as Mix mentioned,

01:08:00.170 --> 01:08:02.750
there is sometimes that tension of being too

01:08:02.750 --> 01:08:05.329
kinky for queer spaces and too queer for straight

01:08:05.329 --> 01:08:08.449
kinky spaces. Have you found that? challenging

01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:10.090
in any areas trying to find the place that you

01:08:10.090 --> 01:08:11.929
both fit i would say there's no one size fits

01:08:11.929 --> 01:08:14.329
all space at the moment i don't know if that's

01:08:14.329 --> 01:08:15.969
something that we'll find ourselves with in the

01:08:15.969 --> 01:08:20.329
future i find for me queer events are queer events

01:08:20.329 --> 01:08:22.770
and kink events are kink events and the two will

01:08:22.770 --> 01:08:24.949
sometimes occasionally meet but not in a big

01:08:24.949 --> 01:08:29.630
meaningful fashion yeah for me it started off

01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:31.869
of being separate but then it's something like

01:08:38.729 --> 01:08:42.029
place and basically that that sometimes i need

01:08:42.029 --> 01:08:44.770
to go somewhere and i have to travel in gear

01:08:44.770 --> 01:08:47.550
and there's no hiding that the 40 people that

01:08:47.550 --> 01:08:49.729
work with you every day see you going through

01:08:49.729 --> 01:08:52.210
through that that place of work as well it's

01:08:52.210 --> 01:08:54.670
just just normalized for me and again people

01:08:54.670 --> 01:08:58.529
like to see it people like to see someone doing

01:08:58.529 --> 01:09:01.430
something different and not apologizing for it.

01:09:01.470 --> 01:09:03.029
And that's just my personal journey. I'm not

01:09:03.029 --> 01:09:05.189
saying that everyone needs to do that, but I've

01:09:05.189 --> 01:09:07.069
gone, I've just got to the stage now of after

01:09:07.069 --> 01:09:09.890
I kept being outed and like only my auntie liking

01:09:09.890 --> 01:09:11.930
it, but you know that your mother's seen it and

01:09:11.930 --> 01:09:13.850
you know, your gran's seen it and they've not

01:09:13.850 --> 01:09:16.130
said a word, but you know, they viewed it. So

01:09:16.130 --> 01:09:19.180
it's just, yeah, it is now. I'm aware we are

01:09:19.180 --> 01:09:21.140
recording this in May, but the release date of

01:09:21.140 --> 01:09:22.939
this episode is in June. So for the purposes

01:09:22.939 --> 01:09:24.880
of this, we're in Pride Month right now. And

01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:26.180
so it's something we've been talking about a

01:09:26.180 --> 01:09:29.279
lot on the podcast this month about how we feel

01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:31.779
like our kink identities and our queer identities

01:09:31.779 --> 01:09:34.140
sort of overlap and mesh with each other. It

01:09:34.140 --> 01:09:35.420
makes us looking baffled right now because we

01:09:35.420 --> 01:09:39.399
haven't recorded any of those episodes yet. But

01:09:39.399 --> 01:09:41.939
do you feel that kink is an inherent part of

01:09:41.939 --> 01:09:44.079
your sexual identities in a similar way to orientation

01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:45.920
or does that sit in a very separate box for you

01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:49.130
two? Sorry, go on. I would say personally it

01:09:49.130 --> 01:09:52.489
is just an inherent part for me. I think that

01:09:52.489 --> 01:09:54.430
I've been in, you know, vanilla monogamous relationships

01:09:54.430 --> 01:09:56.989
before and it's just not quite worked out. There's

01:09:56.989 --> 01:09:59.710
always been a thing missing. So I think it's

01:09:59.710 --> 01:10:01.890
not a thing that I could just switch off or call

01:10:01.890 --> 01:10:05.270
a preference. Yeah. For me, it is a political

01:10:05.270 --> 01:10:08.649
statement as well as a sexual one. So it's that

01:10:08.649 --> 01:10:11.510
whole thing of pride. It's just like, oh, keep,

01:10:11.609 --> 01:10:14.560
you know, you know. tea only please we're british

01:10:14.560 --> 01:10:16.079
and everything like that and again you've got

01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:19.640
to kink keep sex and kink and i'm not saying

01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:21.420
that you know run around naked or anything like

01:10:21.420 --> 01:10:25.060
that but the big element of being queer is what

01:10:25.060 --> 01:10:27.600
you do and who you're with as well so if you

01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:30.140
have to sanitize that and you have to pretend

01:10:30.140 --> 01:10:32.920
that that you know that that you know that you're

01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:34.359
dressed as an angel and everything like that

01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:38.119
so so with me i I will go out in full bluff as

01:10:38.119 --> 01:10:40.239
well, and probably bright colours and things

01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:42.239
as well. So I think I made the chronicle in bright

01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:45.420
yellow leather. Amazing. I didn't buy it not

01:10:45.420 --> 01:10:47.520
to be spotted, but part of that is talking to

01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:49.819
people as well, giving out stickers and everything

01:10:49.819 --> 01:10:52.079
like that. So it is very important. So I was

01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:54.720
at a meeting this morning with somebody about

01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:58.000
Sunderland Pride, and I won't be attending it

01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:00.439
because I'm away, but we're very much like, is

01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:02.579
that we need a presence there as well. It's not

01:11:02.579 --> 01:11:06.319
just about being in Newcastle. Pride season has

01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:09.760
well and truly started. So Durham Pride, there's

01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:11.439
a lot of the smaller prides as well that we like

01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:14.199
to be part of as well. Especially not that I

01:11:14.199 --> 01:11:15.939
want to get too political, especially the climate

01:11:15.939 --> 01:11:18.220
at the moment with local councils and things

01:11:18.220 --> 01:11:20.739
and cutting of funding. It makes it all the more

01:11:20.739 --> 01:11:23.699
important to be visible at them as well and just

01:11:23.699 --> 01:11:26.520
say, right, I'm here, I'm not going away. Absolutely,

01:11:26.659 --> 01:11:29.039
yeah. It all definitely blends for me where,

01:11:29.140 --> 01:11:33.600
like... kink and my sexual orientation and sex

01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:35.600
and politics like they are also mixed up with

01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:37.760
each other you can't separate them like sex and

01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:40.500
kink are inherently political sexual orientation

01:11:40.500 --> 01:11:42.819
and your sexual identity in general is inherently

01:11:42.819 --> 01:11:45.279
political because it's it's politics that will

01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:48.960
fuck it up um it's yeah trying to separate any

01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:52.760
of those things gets really messy be honest because

01:11:52.760 --> 01:11:55.939
the leather gate it stopped my indifference where

01:11:55.939 --> 01:11:58.920
i was indifferent to pride for a long time And

01:11:58.920 --> 01:12:00.500
like, you know, while we're here, we've got marriage,

01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:02.979
but there's a lot we still haven't got. Or a

01:12:02.979 --> 01:12:04.960
lot of people that want to be here and they're

01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:07.000
not for whatever reason as well. So again, it's

01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.600
important to display and be visible as well.

01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:12.739
It's very much uncomfortable. It has put fire

01:12:12.739 --> 01:12:14.579
in my belly. And with everything that's going

01:12:14.579 --> 01:12:17.800
on at the moment, it's put extra as well. Yeah.

01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:20.319
So again, I'm not going to disappear. Amazing.

01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:24.000
And even tiny bits of visibility bring positives.

01:12:24.140 --> 01:12:26.100
We had a new boot black come to the social last

01:12:26.100 --> 01:12:28.359
night who came because they'd seen Newcastle

01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:31.119
Edmund posting about me, reached out to me as

01:12:31.119 --> 01:12:33.340
a non -binary person to see how comfortable I

01:12:33.340 --> 01:12:35.079
felt there. I'd gone, yeah, it's amazing. Be

01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.460
there. So they came. They had a great time. And

01:12:37.460 --> 01:12:38.979
they said afterwards they probably wouldn't have

01:12:38.979 --> 01:12:41.680
made that step as soon as they did if they didn't

01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:44.359
already know that it was a wholesome, safe space

01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:46.720
for a non -binary person to be in. That's really

01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:49.159
good. That's really good to hear. I think you're

01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:51.039
right about that kind of the way the world is

01:12:51.039 --> 01:12:54.380
at the moment, that kind of tabloid reaction

01:12:54.380 --> 01:12:57.960
to the very idea of kink at pride sort of thing.

01:12:58.100 --> 01:13:01.479
They assume that you have kink at pride and you're

01:13:01.479 --> 01:13:03.380
going to see people being whipped in the street

01:13:03.380 --> 01:13:05.199
and stuff like that. And it's, well, actually,

01:13:05.279 --> 01:13:06.979
I could turn up in jeans and a T -shirt and you've

01:13:06.979 --> 01:13:09.500
got kink at pride because I'm a kinky person

01:13:09.500 --> 01:13:13.619
at pride. Yeah. And it's a little bit like yourself.

01:13:15.650 --> 01:13:17.770
For a long time, I was a little bit kind of indifferent

01:13:17.770 --> 01:13:20.649
to pride. I think partly for the tiny bit of

01:13:20.649 --> 01:13:23.369
anti -capitalist in me and kind of the corporatization

01:13:23.369 --> 01:13:25.489
of pride and stuff like that. But actually, it's

01:13:25.489 --> 01:13:28.170
a really important thing. And you have to be

01:13:28.170 --> 01:13:31.789
more increasingly visible for it to be accepted

01:13:31.789 --> 01:13:34.649
and not in an acceptability politics kind of

01:13:34.649 --> 01:13:36.670
way. This is the sanitized version of the thing

01:13:36.670 --> 01:13:38.069
that everybody will accept. It's not actually,

01:13:38.109 --> 01:13:42.350
this is who I am. And, you know, as the great

01:13:42.350 --> 01:13:45.460
Gandalf once said, deal with it. I think it's

01:13:45.460 --> 01:13:47.819
less about striving for acceptance than genuine

01:13:47.819 --> 01:13:51.180
welcome. Yeah, I think that's a really good point.

01:13:51.380 --> 01:13:53.000
So we've come to the sad time when it's time

01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:55.579
to start winding down, but it has been so good

01:13:55.579 --> 01:13:57.340
chatting to both of you. Really interesting.

01:13:57.460 --> 01:13:59.199
And like Mick's picked up on at the beginning,

01:13:59.340 --> 01:14:01.279
these are always some of our favourite episodes

01:14:01.279 --> 01:14:02.859
to do when it's something that we don't already

01:14:02.859 --> 01:14:04.800
know loads about and we get to sit and learn

01:14:04.800 --> 01:14:08.520
for an hour or two. So thank you both. Is there

01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:11.659
anything that the Newcastle Leathermen have got

01:14:11.659 --> 01:14:13.479
coming up that you want to tell us about? Because

01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:15.279
I hope some people will want to get involved.

01:14:15.659 --> 01:14:19.500
Well, next month in July is Newcastle Pride.

01:14:19.779 --> 01:14:22.579
So we usually make a weekend of it as well. So

01:14:22.579 --> 01:14:25.119
we'll be out and about on the Friday night. It's

01:14:25.119 --> 01:14:29.880
not our social night. It's actually Energy, which

01:14:29.880 --> 01:14:32.420
is the rubber social night. It's going to be

01:14:32.420 --> 01:14:34.340
very busy, so we will be out on the Friday night.

01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:37.979
We will be out in the parade march, and we'll

01:14:37.979 --> 01:14:40.119
be out and about, probably with a little cocktail

01:14:40.119 --> 01:14:43.380
or two, somewhere around the scene. You can find

01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:46.800
us on our website. It's www .newcastleathermen

01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:48.819
.com. We have a little shop there that we sell

01:14:48.819 --> 01:14:51.399
all sorts on as well, from T -shirts through

01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:53.500
to the new belt buckle. I'm not going to push

01:14:53.500 --> 01:14:55.380
that too much, but we have a brand new belt buckle.

01:14:55.899 --> 01:14:59.079
There we go. But again, you'll find all our socials

01:14:59.079 --> 01:15:02.140
as well. on that as well, and a list of where

01:15:02.140 --> 01:15:04.680
we'll be and what we're doing as well. So again,

01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:07.380
if we're planning a theatre trip, whatever, that

01:15:07.380 --> 01:15:10.159
will be on there as well, links as well. I will

01:15:10.159 --> 01:15:11.739
include some links in the description to make

01:15:11.739 --> 01:15:13.539
sure people have no excuse not to find you. We

01:15:13.539 --> 01:15:16.380
also are planning our next level weekend as well.

01:15:16.619 --> 01:15:20.850
So it is going to be... from the 19th to the

01:15:20.850 --> 01:15:25.689
21st of March as part of our fifth birthday as

01:15:25.689 --> 01:15:27.409
well. So that's the reason we have it in March.

01:15:27.529 --> 01:15:29.729
It doesn't clash with many other things in the

01:15:29.729 --> 01:15:33.310
leather community as well. So let's make Newcastle

01:15:33.310 --> 01:15:35.970
extra kinky. That is definitely a mission that

01:15:35.970 --> 01:15:38.060
I can get on board with. And thank you both again

01:15:38.060 --> 01:15:40.500
so much for coming on. Really massively appreciated.

01:15:40.539 --> 01:15:42.619
It sounds like you are both extremely busy people

01:15:42.619 --> 01:15:44.819
with lots of events to organise and lots of leather

01:15:44.819 --> 01:15:46.659
to polish. So thank you for taking the time out

01:15:46.659 --> 01:15:48.300
to come and chat to us. Thank you so much. Thank

01:15:48.300 --> 01:15:50.619
you for having us. Thank you for having us. Excellent.

01:15:51.020 --> 01:15:54.079
Amazing. Okay, that is us done for today. Thank

01:15:54.079 --> 01:16:14.819
you. Bye. Bye. See you next time.