So this is the last episode in the Pride Month?
No, Mix, the last episode in Pride Month is leather.
But this is the last one we have to record. Right.
Because we do not experience time in a linear
fashion. Time isn't real. No. Welcome to Don't
Scare the Newbies, a podcast where we talk kink,
raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizal, a lifestyle
submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who likes their
kink heavy, intense and scary. And I'm S, Carizal's
dominant who knows how to deliver all of the
above. And today we're going to be talking about
sexuality and sexual orientation. Oh, spicy.
So this is part of our continuing Pride month
run of episodes. Yeah. Pride season, if you will.
That's what I should have said. Pride season.
Pride season. We have one more to go. We do,
yes. After this, where we'll be talking to some
really interesting people about leather stuff.
So stick around for that. Amazing. And it's another
one of those episodes where people who are here
for a kink podcast go, well, what has sexuality
got to do with kink? And I think it's a really
interesting intersection, isn't there, between
kind of, for us anyway, between kink and sex
and our sexual orientation and stuff like that.
And actually whether being kinky is a sexual
orientation in itself. Yeah. And I think these
things are always tangled up to an extent, even
if people individually feel that their sexual
orientation, their sort of general sexuality,
like what? what sort of sexually excites them
and what forms part of a sexual relationship
for them how they do kink if those all sit in
very separate boxes from each other there's always
going to be lines you can draw between them connections
you can draw and even just in how you're perceived
these things make up parts of your identity so
it's interesting to talk about yeah and this
is one of those episodes where it's just nice
to talk a little bit more about who we are yeah
like we did with the gender episode yeah Exactly.
You know, kind of give people a bit more of an
idea of who we are as people as well as being
shamelessly kinky perverts. Yeah. We are also
fully formed human beings. Definitely. And I
think I've started to get more confident that
people who like listening to us will like listening
to us. Like when we did the long distance relationships
episode that had some kink in it, but it was
relatively light on the kink. Yeah. And we did
the episode about addiction and recovery where
again, like the first hour of it was just. Like,
everyone cried. I am sorry to everyone who...
I've had comments where people had to pull their
car over, where people cried on trains. Yeah,
yeah. I think we caught a lot of people unawares
with that one, even with all the content notes
on there. Yes. But people have always responded
well to it, so... Yeah. I don't know, watch this
space, maybe we'll just start talking about all
kinds of random stuff with the most tenuous kink
connections we can find. Yes, yeah. Ever -increasing
tangential connections to kink. Yes. Well, while
we're telling people about ourselves, we have
some news to share with people, don't we? We
do, yes, Mix. And probably a lot of people will
have seen this on Instagram and TikTok already.
Yeah. And people who listen to our Patreon will
be like, oh, this is old news. Yeah. Patreon
people found out back in May. So this is a great
advert, if ever there was one, for signing up
for the Patreon. Because the people on Patreon
got to find out first that we are engaged. We
are. hurrah amazing you're staring blankly at
me they go are we shit but yes we got engaged
in may do you remember the date in may mix eighth
no mix no no mix 16th no mix oh god when was
it it was the 10th of may oh my god It is a new
anniversary. I haven't yet committed that one
to memory. You'll get there. I'll get there eventually.
So, yeah, we got engaged on the 10th of May quite
spontaneously. If you want to hear all about
it, go over to Patreon. But yes, spontaneous
engagement. And I held off on posting it on socials
because I wanted to post it with a visual accompaniment.
And we had to wait a little while for my engagement
ring to be special ordered in. Yes. And now it's
here. It is. And now we're telling everyone.
And it is beautiful. And it's very exciting.
I still don't have one. That is our next plan.
We need to figure out what kind of engagement
ring you want and then find it for you. Find
one. Yes. A cheap one. What? No. You have spent
so much on mine. I know, but that's... Let me
spoil you. Let me treat you. You're so resistant
to this. Yes. A few weeks ago, we were away in
London for Mix's birthday, their birthday, and
I had to fight them every step of the way to
let me pay for things. I would I would have to
be so quick with my card in hand anytime we went
anywhere where money could be spent, because
before I knew it, they would be heading for the
swiping card devices. Yeah, I am kind of like
that. I struggle with the concept of being spoilt
personally. And yet you're into fin dom, make
it make sense. Yeah. That's just how we need
to frame it. Like frame it as you fin doming
me into buying you a ring. Yeah, true. And that
is kind of how, on a couple of occasions, how
we framed the birthday as well. That's how you
made it make sense to you, yeah. Yeah, that's
the way that I rationalise it. But anyway, yes,
we are engaged. That is very, very exciting.
We do not have concrete plans. But no doubt we
will talk about that over the course of the next
period of time. Yes. It's very cool, very exciting,
very happy. Yeah. But anyway, we're not here
to talk about engagement and marriage and weddings,
though I'm sure at some point we will be. Today
we are here to talk about sexual orientation.
Yes, we are. Well, why don't you start us off?
Tell us about how you worked out your sexuality
and where you're at today. Yeah, Mix. So I've
definitely been on a journey, as we like to say.
As we like to say. I definitely, so I was, I'm
non -binary, but I was assigned female at birth.
So I grew up as a girl. And when I was a really
small child, I didn't have much concept of having
a sexual orientation, but just kind of expected
to be straight by default. That's all I'd been
taught about. I definitely heard about gay people
existing when I was quite young. I don't remember.
where i was taught about that but i feel like
i was taught it in a relatively neutral way considering
it was the early 90s and i was being brought
up in a quite strictly christian home it wasn't
ever presented as a really terrible thing it
wasn't presented as a positive either it was
very much that's what some other people do and
we don't do that but considering the time period
and the upbringing i had it probably wasn't as
negative as it could have been yeah um but i
just didn't think that was me I grew up on Disney
movies and was like, yeah, I'm going to be a
Disney princess and get married to a prince and
do all of that stuff. But I definitely found
that I found girls interesting from really young.
I got like sort of childhood crushes on boys
and girls. Didn't really understand it or know
what that was at the time, but in hindsight can
really see that I was approaching my relationships
with other kids my age in very similar ways to
each other. and when i was in my early teens
definitely started to realize that the people
that i found attractive in that way the people
that i would sort of get excited about being
close to were both boys and girls and i came
out as bi when i was 14 i had a as is i think
the like such a common queer girl experience
of having a massive crush on my best friend um
absolutely like obsessed with her and then ended
up getting a crush on another of my close female
friends and was completely obsessed with her
for like two years. Both of them straight, of
course. Obviously. As always happens. Yes. So
yeah, I came out when I was 14 and this was not
a great time. So this would have been 2004. This
was not a great time to be openly queer in a
just regular comprehensive school or probably
any school where I didn't know of any other kids
who were out as any form of LGBT at that time.
and this was only a year after section 28 had
been repealed as well for anyone not familiar
with that section 28 was a law in the uk where
schools could not promote the homosexual ideology
was possibly the phrasing of it probably uh they
couldn't teach children about gay relationships
about gay sex as part of sex ed they couldn't
present it as a viable option in any way um i
think there was sort of certain contexts where
they could talk about it so like if they were
talking about a historical figure being gay or
speculated to be gay they could present like
factual information but not anything that could
be seen as encouraging it And a lot of schools
were so afraid and a lot of teachers were so
afraid of being prosecuted under Section 28 that
they would take it even a step further than the
law required. So they wouldn't defend LGBT kids
from bullying because they would be concerned
that that would be seen as promoting it. They
wouldn't even allow you to have access to information
or ask questions about information. They were
very, very afraid of getting in trouble. getting
a negative response to it. So although that was
repealed before I came out, it was a few months
before I came out and that culture hadn't changed.
Most people probably weren't even aware that
what they were allowed to do had changed. The
curriculum certainly hadn't changed. So I came
out at a time where sex ed was exclusively about
straight relationships and straight sex, where
even I remember being in a science class and
they were talking about biology and puberty.
And one of the things they said as an indicator
of puberty was people start becoming attracted
to the opposite sex. And I got a lot of trouble.
I scribbled on my worksheet and crossed it out
to say opposite sex or same sex and got detention.
I obviously got bullied really badly. I was already
getting bullied. I was a weird kid. But I started
getting bullied a lot more and a lot more specifically
about my sexuality. And when that happened, if
I tried to go to teachers about it, I would get
in trouble. And they said that I had been talking
about inappropriate subjects for schools and
telling children things about sex, which I had
not. I just said I was bisexual. Yeah. So I wasn't
protected at all from any of that. the bullying,
that experience that had mainly been verbal up
until that point ended up getting physical. I
started getting physically attacked and teachers
still wouldn't step in. So being openly queer
in the early 2000s was not for the weak. It was,
it sucked. But I was very sure that that was
who I was. But I didn't have any experience with
girls or with women until quite a bit later because
no one else was out. I'm sure there were bi and
lesbian girls at my school, but no one was out.
And then I had some experiences with boys. They
were a lot more accessible and a lot less scary,
I think is a big part of it as well. More straightforward.
Yeah. And then I went to college and then ended
up moving to the Northeast with a guy that I
was seeing at the time. And me and him, we weren't
exactly non -monogamous, but as a lot of straight
men with a bisexual girlfriend are, he was very
keen on the idea of threesomes. Of a threesome,
yeah. And that... like i'm not saying that's
the ideal way to have your first sexual experiences
with women but honestly for me it made it so
much easier because i'd tried signing up for
like lesbian dating websites and i just found
women way more intimidating to talk to yeah and
i didn't really know what i was doing and i hadn't
got anywhere um but with him i basically just
farmed it out to him i was like find us girls
and then you can watch me have sex with a girl
and i didn't have to take any responsibility
for anything amazing work amazing work even before
you realized you You were submissive and kinky.
You were delegating decisions to other people.
Yeah. So that was where my first experiences
happened. And then that gave me a little bit
more confidence with talking to women. So after
me and him split up, I had more hookups with
women over the next few years. My next relationship
was an open relationship. And I continued to
explore my sexuality with men and with women.
Didn't really know non -binary people existed.
was seeing it very much in those binary terms
still but had a great time excellent stuff so
it feels like an experience that probably quite
a lot of people can can relate to it's sort of
you know that feeling of being a little bit kind
of outside or being placed outside the norm and
then tentatively exploring as you got a little
bit older and a little bit more confident yeah
definitely a lot of the very stereotypical queer
woman experiences of the crushes on the straight
best friends and they're terrified of talking
to women and for a lot of bisexual women i think
defaulting to a lot more relationships with men
because it's easier while always kind of feeling
like you're missing out on something through
that yeah yeah hit all of the all of the tropes
there yeah and it's it's funny you say that because
obviously i'll talk about my experience in a
little bit but i kind of had the opposite where
actually i've had men quite annoying you know
yeah and as a consequence women were no less
scary to talk to but definitely less annoying
women and femme presenting people a little bit
easier to get along with yeah um so if you get
over the fear it then got easier yeah whereas
getting over the fear and then talking to a man
i was like good grief they're not always the
most delightful though i did have a period of
time where i my sexuality sort of shifted through
my transition i had a period of time where i
was really only interested in men or mask presenting
people by that point i did know non -binary people
existed and sort of masculine presenting and
masculine leaning non -binary people were very
much included but after i came out as non -binary
i also started identifying as gay for a while
gay in quite a loose term because yeah because
i wasn't in a binary box but people towards my
end of the gender spectrum um and this was during
a period of time where i was on testosterone
and that's a really common part of like early
use of testosterone the first six months to a
year quite a lot of trans masks find that they
end up leaning a lot more gay than they have
before right either developing an attraction
to men if they previously identified as lesbian
or just exclusively going like men only for a
while and sometimes that stays that way and sometimes
it swings back and no one really knows why it
happens um i think there's an element of you
getting more comfortable with yourself and that
can allow you to inhabit different parts of your
sexuality that you might have closed off for
you just closing off parts of yourself in general
but it was it was really interesting and i thought
i had lost my bisexuality for a while and then
during the period of time where i was doing a
lot of drugs i got really high and had sex with
a woman because we were both off our tits nice
afterwards i was like oh yeah no still yeah yeah
still right still bisexual that was great So
was that like three coming outs then for you?
Yeah, they definitely get easier over time because
it's easier coming out when you're not in a high
school. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. So I came out as
bi when I was 14, came out as gay when I was,
what would I have been, like 25, and then came
out as bi again when I was 26. Right. And then
came out as pansexual a couple of years after
that. Yeah, just to keep it fresh. Which will
come on to sort of that distinction between bisexual
and pansexuality. Some people find that's a really
important distinction. Some people just kind
of pick a label based on vibes. But there was
definitely a point where I felt it was time to
switch from one to the other, which felt like
less of a coming out, more of a clarification.
And did you get any, obviously you talked about
coming out as a teenager. And I think it is a
shame and it is disappointing to hear that you
had a negative response to that, but not massively
surprising. Yeah. Given the time period and where
you were. and all of that kind of stuff. When
you were going through that period of transitioning
and then coming out as gay and then deciding
to come out as bisexual again and then clarifying
that, what was the reaction of the people around
you? Because a really mean version of that, and
I've heard that specifically about bisexuals,
is there's a lack of decisiveness to it. I didn't
find that I had any negative reactions, at least
not to my face and not that I ever found out
about. I think there's definitely that stereotype
that bisexuals are indecisive or that it's just
a phase and you'll eventually end up gay or straight.
I think because it happened very much alongside
my transition, like most of my friend group at
the time were trans people as well. The people
who'd had negative reactions to me coming out
as trans weren't part of my life anymore. So
that sort of filtered out a lot of the crap before
I had to deal with coming out as gay as well.
And all the trans people were like, oh yeah,
so you started on T like a month ago. So that
tracks. No one was surprised. And then coming
out as bi again, again, it's not uncommon for
trans people to have their sexual identity shift
around a little bit during those, even not just
with hormones, just as part of the self -discovery
of coming out as trans. You do tend to examine
things and try things a little bit. And there's
a lot more of an acceptance that trans people
will, for lack of a better term, go through some
phases. yes that's just a thing that happens
uh the thing that was tough about it was at the
time that i came out as non -binary i was married
my ex -wife is a trans feminine person so they
use they then pronouns but at the time that they
first came out we're using she her right and
uh like on the sort of feminine end of the spectrum
yeah and as i transitioned i found that sort
of end of the gender spectrum didn't appeal to
me for a period of time yeah our relationship
had already become largely sexless by that point
because of stuff that was going on with my mental
health and the relationship starting to we were
moving in different directions but i think me
sort of essentially closing that door and saying
no because of the gender that you are and because
of the way my sexuality has changed yeah there's
no potential there anymore i think that was quite
rough yeah for them and rough for me because
i felt terrible about that yeah and then i figured
out i was bisexual again after we'd split up
right and i felt really they never said anything
about it but i always felt really terrible that
they might have thought actually i'd just been
saying i was gay because i didn't want to have
sex with them which definitely wasn't the case
yeah um and me sort of coming out as bi again
after our relationship had ended i was nervous
about doing it because of how that might be perceived
either by them or by other people yeah but it's
just that's just the way that shit goes sometimes
and i don't think my sexuality being anywhere
would have saved that relationship like it was
yeah it was already fucked yeah for a lot of
reasons but yeah that was the internal struggle
I had but no one ever said anything negative
about any of that to me yeah and me and my ex
-wife stayed friends for a good number of years
after that so if they did feel some kind of way
about it it obviously wasn't enough to blow up
our relationship over yeah that makes sense So
yeah, I've definitely experienced my sexuality
as very fluid, which is one of those things that,
again, people sometimes misapply. They're like,
oh, sexuality is fluid. Everyone's a little bit
bi, and I definitely don't think that's the case.
Yeah. But for me, my sexuality has always been
quite fluid, where obviously there was that period
of time where I didn't think I was bi anymore,
but even... throughout the time that I've identified
as bisexual, the times where I felt like I was
leaning more towards the masculine end and more
towards the feminine and would often seem to
be quite reactive to whatever relationship I
was in, where whatever I don't have at home,
I'm now more interested in, which is why open
relationships have been quite fun. But I've experienced
it in a very fluid way, but it's reached a point
now where it feels quite settled, where gender
has become less and less relevant to how I experience
sexuality over time. And now I feel pretty sure
of where I'm at and it feels like a much more
lasting phase. Yeah, that's fair. What about
you, Mix? Because I know your journey has been
very... Your journey... My journey... Has been
very different from mine. How did you figure
out your sexuality? I was thinking about this
when I was kind of making some fairly brief notes
for this episode. And I think the answer is over
a really fucking long time. because i have and
i will refer to myself as a covid queer so i
came out as bisexual and non -binary during the
panic during the panic during the pandemic um
because all i had was time and my own thoughts
yeah and i think that was possibly just a timing
thing and i think the thing for me is that's
when i said it out loud and i said it to other
people i think recognizing that i was not fully
straight probably has been there for a really
long time I think when we talked about it on
the gender episode, never really felt like a
boy or a man, but didn't really feel like a woman
either. So kind of thinking about the language
that I had access to at the time, didn't feel
like a man, didn't feel like a woman, didn't
feel trans. So kind of retreated back to, oh,
well, I must be a boy and a man then. Yeah, it's
like if nothing's motivating you to cross a line,
you just stick with the default you've been given.
Yeah. And because, you know, I grew up in the
80s. 80s and 90s and that was not a fun time
for people who were not heterosexual no um or
aligned to the binary either as you've just described
it will be a decade before we could talk about
anything other than heterosexuality in schools
um I never joined in on the kind of playground
banter about, you know, using words like gay
as slurs and kind of, they're a bit fruity kind
of thing. All of that normalised stigmatising
language around the LGBT community. I was exposed
to a lot of that, but didn't really engage with
it. Partly, I think, because it was cruel. I
was like, well, that's just mean. Why would you
say stuff like that? But I think looking back
on it, there probably was a little bit of like
being a little bit offended by it. Yeah. Because
I didn't grow up thinking, yes, I am heterosexual.
I like girls and women as a boy and then a man.
You know, a little bit like you probably a little
bit more low key. But, you know, there were definitely
boys I went to school with. Something interesting
about you that I quite like. but I don't know
what it is. Some of my friends would occasionally
question whether I was gay because I didn't show
a massive amount of interest in girls when I
was a young, young child. And I think I had that,
I mean, you said it just now, everyone's a little
bit bi sort of thing. When I started to experience
attraction, I knew that I was attracted to women.
I knew that I was attracted to kind of femme
presenting people and thinking about the, like
as a school age child. thinking about the boys
where I was like, oh, you're a bit interesting.
There's something I like about you. They were
more at the femme end, I suppose. Yeah. You know,
like quite delicate features, all of that sort
of thing. But I kind of had that without having
the words for it, that internalised biphobia,
almost kind of, well, that's normal. Yeah. Everybody's...
everybody's like that everybody can recognize
when somebody is attractive can't they that was
sort of a barrier to me figuring out for a little
bit as well obviously didn't didn't take me as
long but it still was a question i had in my
head because i'd been sort of brought up being
taught that like my mom talked quite a lot about
how girls will always get crushes on their best
friend and then you grow out of it and you marry
a man yeah um so i mean probably she's bi is
my takeaway from that now but at the time I was
like oh yeah so straight women feel this way
and I think that's where that everyone's a little
bit bi messaging can be quite harmful it can
be really harmful to gay people who are like
no I am I am gay but it can also be really hard
for bisexuals to figure out they're actually
bi and not just yeah well everyone's feeling
that way everyone's like that yeah so I think
I experienced a lot of that and a lot of my well
all of my important relationships were with women
have been until this one with women um so i kind
of didn't really examine it much much further
than that i was like oh yeah okay so i guess
i must be straight then and didn't really kind
of unpick that in that way that i tend to do
i think i grew up with some and experienced as
an adult some fairly negative perceptions of
the idea of being bisexual I think you touched
on some of them. You know, that perception that
bisexual people are indecisive. They are easy.
It's just a phase. Kind of bisexual being synonymous
with being a slut and unfaithful and all of that
kind of really negative messaging. So even in
those moments where it did pop up every now and
again, I was like, no, that's not me. So that
can't be true. Yeah. Like I said, most of my
important relationships have been with women.
As a horny younger person, did some experimenting
with men and found them a bit annoying, to be
honest. And after I came out as bisexual, found
them equally annoying. Yeah, there's a reason
I don't have much of a track record of dating
men. No. Very pretty. Yeah, yeah. Lovely to look
at, but quite annoying. Sorry to our, no doubt,
lovely male listeners. It's just, I have not...
successfully been able to find one with the emotional
intelligence to sustain a relationship i'm sure
any men listening to this are perfect but i've
never met you yeah yeah i'm yeah i'm sure men
are lovely um but yeah never really had the fear
that you described about talking to girls and
women um that never really applied to men for
me it's just a little bit frustrating because
you know they just very just interested in the
sex part of it and and you know kind of quite
demanding in what they wanted yeah which i am
sure almost all of our women listeners will relate
to um so they weren't really worth the effort
um which again meant i put myself back in my
box kind of going i'll just be straight then
yeah it's easier um And of course you had a really
long relationship with one woman in particular
because you were married. Yeah, I was married
for years and years and years. So I had no reason
to kind of unpack that. And then separated from
my ex -wife. And then in pretty short order after
that went into lockdown. So there was that opportunity
to work out what I wanted from life and who I
was, which I would have done anyway because I
was separated and you have to do that when your
life gets turned upside down. But COVID gave
me the space to just kind of sit with that and
work it out and did a lot of thinking back and
going, well, what was that all about? Then, and
right back to being a teenager and seeing boys
in my school going, oh, there's something quite
interesting about you. And not really feeling
connected to my gender and all of that kind of
stuff. And I think just came to a level of peace
with it and kind of challenged myself a little
bit on some of my own internal biphobia as well.
How can you be bisexual? How can you be anything
other than straight if all of your significant
relationships have been with women? And you're
like, well, that's just how that works. Sometimes
I'm challenging myself on it and then sitting
with those labels and seeing how they felt. Like,
does that accurately describe how I feel about
things and how I want to perceive myself and
want to be perceived by other people? So for
me, it was a much more gentle process than I
think some people experience. It was like I had
the... time and the space for the first time
in my life probably to actually sit down and
think about who i am and what i am and how i
am and all of that so when i got to that conclusion
it felt pretty comfortable i was like okay those
are the words i'm going to describe myself as
and i'm going to act accordingly because i'm
41 years old the fuck is going to tell me to
do anything different you know um i sometimes
feel a little bit guilty because People share
the process they went through to work out who
they are and what they are. And then describe
the process they went through of telling other
people. And it sounds awful. Like yours sounds
awful. The negative experiences that you had
when you came out as a really young person. It
sounds horrible. Horrible because it happened.
Because that shouldn't be what happened. But
also horrible because of the effect it probably
had on you. Yeah. and the way that teenagers
will internalise those negative messages and
then feel really bad about themselves as a result
of that. Doing it at 41, I was like, I don't
give a fuck. If you don't like it, piss off,
sort of thing. I had reached the point in my
life where the opinions of other people don't
really matter. Whereas if I'd done that as a
teenager, it would have been a really different
experience. Yeah. I get that, but that's nothing
to feel guilty about. Coming out feeling easy
is something that everyone should have. Yeah,
yeah. That should be the norm and that should
be the default, whether that is through people
reacting better to it or people having the confidence
not to care what others think, or ideally both.
That's what every queer person should get to
experience, so you shouldn't feel bad that you
got that. It's just shit that not everyone does,
and hopefully we're moving more into a time where
everyone will have that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I
think that's fair. Yeah, I just feel the weight
of privilege sometimes. Yeah. Because I look
the way that I do. You know, to all the world,
I am a white, well -educated, middle -class,
middle -aged man. Unless you know me. You know?
And then some of those things are still true.
And even though I am bisexual and non -binary,
some of those things are still true. Yeah. So
there is a degree of privilege that I carry with
me. This risks being a huge diversion, as will
shock our audience to know that that's going
to happen. But I think that's always the first
response you have to examining your own privileges,
to feel bad about it. But the point of privilege
is what everyone should have. yeah yeah it's
it's the level that we should all get to be on
so you're not a bad person for having it and
i've read some really interesting stuff by by
black writers particularly talking about how
white guilt is unproductive yeah sitting at home
in your house going oh god i feel so bad that
i'm white i feel so bad about having my white
privilege it's like That doesn't help anybody.
What helps people is getting off your ass and
saying, everyone should have this. Look at these
things that I have in my life. Everyone should
have this. And sort of confronting it while you
see others lacking. I think it's a really natural
first response to have is to feel bad when you
recognise that you have been handed something
that other people don't get the opportunity to
have. Yeah. But you don't need to. And sometimes
it can even be a barrier to you doing more good.
So try not to be too mean to yourself. no i get
that i totally understand that and i think it's
it yeah it's a really weird thing to to feel
bad about but my coming out experience was was
pretty chill yeah how did people react mix i
know you didn't give a fuck which is great but
how was it anyway um quick i think it's the first
thing um that it was um so i had that period
where i was kind of sitting with it and going
how do i feel about this how do those labels
feel does that feel comfortable authentic All
of that sort of thing. And then when I reached
the point that they did, I think I came out to
everybody that was important to me in a day.
Yeah. I just did it. Did you text people or ring
them, Mick? Called them. Rang them. Well, called
my family. To my mum and my dad, who are divorced.
And my siblings. My siblings except one because
I've never had a phone number for him. Yeah.
I've only very, very recently obtained the ability
to contact my youngest brother directly for no
other reason that would just like that as a family.
Yeah. So I spoke to my mum and my dad, my sister
and my eldest but still younger brother on the
phone. And then mum passed on the message to
my youngest brother. I think I probably told
friends by text, to be fair. Did that as a mass
thing. Yeah. Sent an email at work, as you do.
And I think broadly speaking, pretty positive.
Nobody was offended, which is nice. Nobody was
upset, which is nice. I don't think anybody cared
about the sexuality. I think I'm going to assume
we covered this in the gender episode, but it
was a good while ago. I think people had more
questions about the gender because I came out
as non -binary and bisexual at the same time.
Yeah. So I think, logically, people can get their
head around bisexual much more easily. That's
a much more familiar term to a wider range of
people. But some people struggled a little bit
to get their head around non -binary. Yeah. Which
was a little bit frustrating, but kind of understandable.
I suppose. But yeah, I can imagine that's where
most of the questions were and most of the sort
of educating people had to be done because like
you say, people know what bisexual means. There
are still those misconceptions that go around
about it, but people do at least understand what
the term is. Yeah, yeah. I think the probably
the most difficult conversation about being bisexual
was with my ex -wife. Yeah. When I told her I
was bisexual, she asked whether or not that was
a reason why we'd split up. Yeah. Which I can
understand, because if it was quite recent and
then you've come out, you would make that connection,
even with the best understanding of bisexuality
and queer identities in general, you would have
that thing of, so were they missing out with
me? Yeah, yeah. I think that's possibly where
it came from for her. But I was like, no, because
I'm bisexual and therefore you would still be
within the group of people that I would be sexually
attracted to. That's not what precipitated this,
you know? Yeah. So I think from a sexuality perspective,
I think that was probably the trickiest conversation
to have. But it wasn't a negative one. Yeah.
I think it was probably negative from her perspective
to begin with, because she was worrying about
what that meant. But we managed to navigate that
pretty easily. Yeah. From my perspective, navigated
it pretty easily. It didn't feel like it was
a massive issue. Most of my family are a pretty
progressive bunch, generally speaking. So didn't
really get any negative consequences. Yeah. People
at work aren't stupid enough to say anything
negative out loud in response to an email. So,
you know, I would have caused several problems
in their life if they'd said anything. People
I worked with were probably actually fine with
it. But if they weren't, they're probably not
stupid enough to say it. Yeah, you know that
that's not a good idea in your workplace. The
anti -discrimination laws that now exist. Yeah,
they'd be like, well, I sent this email saying
this and then you said this. Let's go and have
a chat with HR. Definitely. Yeah, my coming out
to family wasn't as bad as I expected it to be.
I sort of skipped over that when I was talking
about mine, like coming out of school was rough
and I didn't come out to anyone in my family
for about a year after that. Because although,
as I said, my upbringing wasn't as negative as
you would have expected around what I was told
about LGBT people, it still was not exactly positive.
Yeah. My perception of my parents' view when
I was a kid was that they saw being gay as like
a mental illness or a failure of parenting. Right.
So there was that worry that if I tell them that
I'm bi... they're gonna take it real personal
yeah um and they were still very strongly christian
like evangelical leaning christian although they'd
softened a bit by the time i was in my teens
and definitely didn't see queer relationships
as being on the same level of validity as straight
relationships um so i thought it might be a really
strongly negative reaction and actually when
i eventually did tell my parents it was kind
of okay i think basically like my dad just was
unfazed um but my mom I think just didn't believe
me and thought it was a phase. And was like,
well, fine, you can say that if you want, but
whatever. And then that sort of invalidation
persisted. So like there was a period of time
where me and my ex -wife were together, but before
my ex -wife came out as trans. So at the time
I appeared to have a husband and we had a polyamorous
relationship. And I started, this is where it
gets confusing, started dating someone who at
the time identified as a woman, but later ended
up coming out as trans masc. We're all just swapping.
But as things stood at the time, I had a husband
and a girlfriend. Yeah. And my mum struggled
with the polyamory thing anyway, but really couldn't
get her head around the idea that this was a
romantic relationship and kept being like your
friend. I was like, no, no, we are dating. This
is a relationship. Yeah. And she just couldn't
quite get it. So there was a lot more resistance
and ignorance rather than outright aggression.
I think if I'd come out as a lesbian, it might
have been rougher. Yeah. Because of being bisexual
and because of those stereotypes people have
about bisexuality as just being a phase, I don't
think anyone took it seriously enough to have
a problem with it, which is kind of a blessing.
Yeah, that's fair. And I think similarly, I was
at the age where people aren't going to perceive
that as a phase. Yeah. Like I said, I think they
never said this, but I can imagine a lot of the
people who knew me as a much younger person,
like my pals, were probably like, finally. Took
you a while to work that out, didn't it? But
like saying you're bisexual at 41, you're not
going to get that kind of, oh, it's a phase,
you'll grow out of it kind of thing because I'm
done growing. Yeah. You know, this is who I am.
But my parents, my dad is a very chill man of
few words. And he was supportive of it. Well,
yeah, if that's what you want to be, then do
it. I think my mum struggled with the non -binary
bit more than the bisexual bit. Yeah. But I kind
of knew it was going to be okay because I can
remember when I was a younger person trying to
kind of go into that period of your life where
you're working out what you want to be when you
grow up. And my mum essentially said, you can
do anything with your life. You can have sex
with whoever you want. You can cover yourself
in tattoos. You can do any kind of job that you
want. You can live your life exactly how you
want to live. But no child of mine is joining
the army. Like that was literally the only limit
that she placed on any of our lives was entering
the armed forces. Yeah. Like no child of mine
is doing that. I don't care what else you do
with your life. So I figured it would be okay.
Yeah. And it was. If you'd been worried, you
could have warmed her up by saying that you were
joining the army. And then after she was done
freaking out, be like, oh no, I'm not. It's fine.
I'm just bisexual and non -binary. Bye. Though
I feel like she might have had some questions
about you starting a military career at 41 that
might have overridden the... Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Really, yes, really. You think you're fit
enough to do that? Yeah. You're back on your
knees going to tolerate that? That's fair. Thank
you for that. So, yeah, world's longest coming
out, probably. Yep. Very much a very definition
of slow burn. Well, now that we have established
the law around our sexuality, so I identify as
bisexual and you are pansexual. Yes, thanks.
In my head, they're related but different terms.
I feel like there's sometimes a little bit of
confusion around the difference between them.
Yep. Do you want to demystify it for us? Yes,
Mix. So the definition of bisexual is attraction
to two or more genders. And pansexual is attraction
to all genders or attraction regardless of gender.
So obviously a huge amount of crossover. And
one way of sort of looking at it is bisexual
is the umbrella term that pansexual fits underneath.
Polysexual would be another one people sometimes
use, which is attraction to multiple genders,
but not necessarily all. So that would slot under
there as well. And you could probably put like
homoflexible and heteroflexible. under there
where people identify as mostly gay or mostly
straight but with the odd exception yeah um so
bisexuality can be seen as like an umbrella term
the reason i used bisexual for a long period
of time and then switched to using pansexual
is while i identified as bisexual i felt like
gender played a role in my attraction um when
i first came out as bi i didn't know about non
-binary people but even once i did i sort of
had my attraction to women my attraction to men
my attraction to non -binary people tended to
feel a little bit different and i would go through
periods of time of having a preference of being
more interested in women or being more interested
in men yeah And when I reached the point of coming
out as pansexual was when I had started to feel
that less and less and less to the point where
gender really became irrelevant to how I experienced
attraction. And I was starting to recognize that
it's a lot more about compatibility for me and
it is about personality and it is about things
that aren't physical in nature at all. So gender
really didn't play a part of that. And I don't
know why that had changed. I don't know if it's
just because I didn't know myself very well when
I was younger and was maybe seeing men and women
as being opposites to each other, which is something
that I've sort of unlearned over time as I learn
more about gender. Yeah. So that was sort of
informing my attraction or whether it is just
that something shifted within me or a little
bit of both. But that's why I moved between the
two. I think a lot of the time picking what label
fits you is to an extent it's going on vibes.
So you could look at dictionary definitions all
day, but you're ultimately going to pick what
feels like the closest fit. And there will be
people who identify as pansexual who still feel
like gender does play a little bit more of a
role to them than it does to me. Yeah. And there
will be people whose sexuality feels exactly
the same as mine does who prefer the term bisexual.
Either because that's what they've always used.
You know, it's the older term. Bisexual has been
around longer than pansexual. So some people
just stick with what they know. Or because it
is that all -encompassing term that can cover
any variety of preference or lack of preference
within that. I think there's a bit of a misconception
that bisexual excludes non -binary people. The
idea that bi... People go, well, by means too,
so it's just men and women. Firstly, it's two
or more, but also you could be attracted to,
even if you are just attracted to two genders,
it doesn't have to be men and women. It could
be women and non -binary people, for example,
or women and people within a certain kind of
portion of the non -binary spectrum. Sexuality
is too complicated for these terms to be completely
like perfect fits ever, I think. And it's always
about finding what's the easiest way of communicating
for you. Yeah. What about you, Mix? Why was bisexual
the one that you've kind of settled on rather
than pan or something else? Partly because I'm
old and pansexual feels like a newfangled word
that the kids use. And I am not one of the kids
anymore. I am down with the kids, but I am not
one myself. But also I paid close attention to
the definition and I think bisexual works best
for me because it is, like you say, it is attraction
to two or more genders. And for me, I am, like
there's a meme that I saw years and years ago
that I strongly identify with. I am attracted
to all of the women, all of the trans people,
all of the non -binary people and three specific
men. So it's, and it's a really cliche and I
am. joking for comedic effect on a podcast but
that is kind of how it feels for me is gender
doesn't matter but men are on thin ice and i
just don't experience the same level of attraction
to cis men than i do to other gender identities
yeah so i think it would be i feel like it would
be disingenuous of me to use pansexual because
to an extent it does matter yeah to me it's an
element of it for you yeah it's yeah you know
um i don't mean it when i say all of the women
all of the non -binary people all of the trans
people because some of those people are dickheads
and i wouldn't be attracted to them based on
their personality and their vibe and whether
we're compatible and all of that kind of thing
and the same would apply to men as well i'm not
saying never men no men but kind of the other
way around I'm more predisposed to the other
gender identities than I am to men. So to take
gender out of the equation in the way that pansexual
does doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, that makes
sense. And it's something I debate sometimes
because I joke about it, but I have not really
dated a man since, God, since I was 19, really.
I've dated people who identified as men while
I was with them. but then later came out as something
else. Yeah, yeah. So your attraction is to pre
-transition people. Or both. Yeah, my attraction
is generally to trans people. Yeah, yeah. But
yeah, I think just because I haven't dated men
in a while doesn't mean I'm any less attracted
to them. Like someone being a man doesn't make
me any less attracted to them. It's just the
things that I look for for a relationship, for
a romantic connection, for a power exchange connection,
since I figured out my kink identity, is... really
good quality communication really high levels
of emotional intelligence people who are really
in touch with their feelings and can express
them that's so important to me people who regardless
of how we might negotiate for me to be treated
respect me as an equal from from the start and
see me as a equally important person in a relationship
whose needs are equally needing to be met and
under patriarchy with how they're raised currently
men are less likely to be able to hit those standards
for me yeah so i've had a lot of casual sex with
men and and Very much enjoyed it. But usually
something comes up relatively early within me
starting to connect with a man that makes me
realize we're not compatible to have a relationship.
Yeah, that's fair. Men up their game a bit. That
could change. Yeah. But I am now very much off
the market. So don't improve yourselves for me.
Yeah. Do it for yourself. Yes. Get better for
yourself. And for the poor straight women who
have no options. Yeah. i think my attraction
to men is pretty shallow yeah i'm gonna be honest
i'm not mad about that and i'm not ashamed about
that like quite happily look at a really hot
man as much as i could look at a hot woman or
a hot non -binary person but i am probably significantly
less likely to want to get into i'm obviously
not now because i am in a relationship with you
but i would be significantly less likely to want
to get into a relationship with a cis man i think
um a little bit of eye candy a little bit of
casual sex maybe but that's about it yeah you
know um and that can be an element as well like
for some people attraction is split so some people
can be bisexual but either hetero or homoromantic
they only really like relationships with one
gender in particular i think sometimes that can
come from a internalized homophobia place of
being like but these relationships are less real
they're less valid they're less serious and that's
worth examining but sometimes people just are
wired that way um same as how like asexuals can
still have a romantic orientation where there's
people they like to date but don't experience
sexual attraction and there's aromantic people
who might experience sexual attraction to one
or two or more genders but don't want to date
them like attraction is complicated not just
in terms of figuring out where you sit on the
spectrum but also figuring out where relationships
fit within that yeah um i wouldn't say that Like
for me personally, it's not a split attraction
thing. I can be sort of romantically attracted
to a man. I just am not able to make the relationship
work generally because of how they've been raised
to be a lot of the time. It's not that the potential
isn't there. It's that the reality hasn't ever
quite lived up to the potential. Yeah, that's
true. Yeah, it's entirely possible I'm being
really unfair to men because I've never particularly
tried to pursue a romantic relationship with
a man. So I might be being really unfair to them.
But it's another kind of facet to it. And it's
something that I think has bounced around in
my head since we did the episode with Tom and
Kay. And then they came on here. They have a
really good bit that they do with guests that
they refer to as Alphabet Mafia. So they go through
all of the different variations of that. It's
not just I am a queer person or I am a bisexual
person. It is I am. blah romantic blah sexual
blah amorous blah you know all of the different
groups of labels that you can have which is a
nice touch that they have i think partly because
they have so many of them themselves they use
a lot of words to describe themselves but i haven't
really thought about what my blah romantic would
be and whether that would be bi -romantic as
well Because it is, you know, on the assumption
it's the same basic definition, two or more genders.
Then I kind of assume it would be the same, but
I haven't really kind of examined that. Yeah.
Because I haven't needed to, because I am monoromantic
with you. Yes. Which is the thing with all of
these labels is they are only as useful as you
need them to be. I think probably from what you
said, a big part of why you didn't come out as
bisexual earlier was because you were in a monogamous
relationship with a woman for... what like 15
to 20 years yeah um so although for some people
it would still be really important to figure
out and label and come out as their sexuality
some people in that situation would probably
feel like it's not particularly relevant and
they don't need to know because they're with
who they're with yeah and both of those are completely
valid and now that we are in a mono romantic
relationship though yeah a little bit of play
outside the relationship sometimes like yeah
figuring out exactly who I could potentially
have relationships with isn't a top priority.
I still like to know who I am, but I don't necessarily
always need to know exactly how to define it
because the point of those definitions is to
draw some boundaries around this is the kind
of relationships and the kind of sex that I would
and wouldn't have. And within the context of
where I'm at in my life now with you, I don't
always need all the answers to that. No, and
I think I'm the same. Like I say, we kind of,
in defining our relationship, we both really
quite strongly agreed that monoromantic was important.
Yeah. But the hypothetical range of romantic
relationships that I might have aren't all that
relevant at the moment. Yeah. Because I am in
a relationship with a non -binary person. Yeah.
So I'm enbyromantic currently. Yeah. um but it's
an interesting thought experiment i suppose yeah
they go well actually where do i sit on that
on that spectrum of things i might say probably
by a romantic as well um i think what you said
about maybe for some people some internal unconscious
homophobia going on in how they define their
sexuality in relation to to men I think is a
little bit challenging to hear and I know you
didn't mean it in a challenging way you weren't
saying well you're just a homophobe aren't you
really that's what that's what's going on there
but it is a challenging thing to think about
and go well what is it what's going on there
have I got such a low opinion of men that I just
wouldn't go there with them and actually do I
need to examine what that's about to work it
out I think it's always good to ask yourself
the question but also not to be too harsh on
yourself like I think you know I touched on I
used to And still do find women harder to flirt
with, harder to approach a relationship with,
like a little bit scary and intimidating. And
some of that is because women... tend to have
higher standards and get approached a lot more
yeah there is a reason for it but i think some
of it when i was younger was definitely about
feeling like it's hard to navigate that internalized
homophobia in yourself and in other people of
feeling like if i really want a serious committed
relationship with someone that's for the long
term yeah am i going to be able to have that
with a woman is that a thing that two women can
have and i feel like that is definitely something
that i've moved past and my last relationship
was with a woman and also i'm no longer one so
it's yeah it's different the vibe is different
but i think probably part of why i was a little
bit slower to get started on meeting women and
why the easiest way i found to meet women early
on was getting a boyfriend to do it for me probably
was coming a little bit from some internalized
homophobia and that sort of compulsory heterosexuality
that is particularly pushed onto queer women
yeah of like okay but you gotta give men a try
yeah yeah so it's It's complicated, like identity
and how we've been raised and what society tells
you to be are always going to be so tangled up
together that I don't think there's ever going
to be a solid answer. It's just having some awareness
of it and thinking about that. But as I said,
not particularly relevant to either of us now
because neither of us are trying to date anybody.
No, that is true. I did just have a slightly
amusing thought, though, about why you may have
found it harder to approach and flirt with women.
I think partly connected to the fact that I am
just about to make up a new word. Okay. you are
domosexual. Yes. In that you are sexually attracted
to dominant people. And some of the scariest
dominant people I have ever met are women. Yes.
Oh, God, yeah. You know, I do not have a submissive
bone in my body, but I have met women dominants
who I would quite happily let them step on me.
Yeah. So there might be a little bit of that
going on. Yeah. Because the kind of women I would
be going for would be really scary. Yeah. Which
is a weird thing to think about. It's like, what
is that about? Is it about, are they just more
comfortable in their dominance? What's that about?
Are they just, you know, kind of borrowing the
language of alpha male and the manosphere, naturally
dominant, natural leaders, all of that bullshit
that men tell themselves. Well, that some men
sell to other men. Yeah. Is that just how dominant
women are? That it just exudes from them and
makes them a little bit scary? Maybe. Would you
like to hear another spicy hot take from S? Always.
Yes, Max. Yeah. You mentioned a couple of labels
earlier on homoflexible and heteroflexible. Yeah.
And I have some thoughts about those. All words
are made up. Literally all words are made up.
But I feel like homoflexible and heteroflexible
are a way of erasing bisexual and pansexual identities.
I think there is a little bit of biphobia going
on with that. Because what... If you're heteroflexible,
my conception of heteroflexible, just as an example,
is that you are primarily sexually attracted
to people of the opposite gender. Yeah. But you
are sometimes attracted to people of other genders,
including your own. yeah how is that any different
from being bisexual is my spicy hot take i would
definitely say it fits under the bisexual umbrella
i think it is worth people examining their motivations
for using those labels but i don't think it's
necessarily always biphobia i think it can be
um i think there are people who particularly
people who use the term heteroflexible they want
to kind of cling on to the privilege that comes
with being straight while still having the freedom
to explore, which is coming from a biphobic place
to an extent. And I think there are particularly
some men who are labelling themselves as heteroflexible
on dating apps and when talking to women because
they think it makes them seem more evolved in
some way. Right. Where they may not actually
be acting on that or experiencing those attractions
in any way. They just want to seem more progressive,
which I'm very suspicious of. Or they want to
find a threesome. Yes. And it's a MMF threesome,
but the penises do not touch. Yes. Yeah. But
I think there's something for me about how language
is supposed to communicate. It's supposed to
express ideas. Labels like bisexual, pansexual,
homoflexible, heteroflexible, they are not prescriptive.
They are descriptive. And if you are someone
who is... A man who is attracted to women 99
% of the time has never had or wanted a relationship
with a man, but every now and again masturbates
to gay porn or has had a couple of crushes on
men. Or if I met the right man, maybe I would.
Does bisexual actually communicate anything helpful
about your sexuality to people? It might actually
cause confusion where you're suddenly going to
get hit on by loads of guys you have no interest
in. Where saying that you're heteroflexible maybe
communicates that a little bit better. Where
you're saying, I'm basically, I'm on the market
for women. I'm not ruling anything out. But also
if you want someone who's completely 100 % straight
and is never going to look at a guy, I'm not
for you. Yeah. Then it can be quite a helpful
way of communicating. And my experience is generally
people using the homoflexible label are using
it more in that way. Right. Where it is an honest
sort of description of how they're experiencing
their sexuality, where they would feel like bisexual
was sort of false advertising. Yeah. Completely
gay, completely lesbian, completely homosexual.
doesn't quite fit um so i think there can be
some value in it for that and obviously people
who who do have a very strong preference one
way or the other can use bisexual if they want
to but as i said sometimes it can lead to a bit
of confusion so i i can sympathize there um but
i do tend to be a little bit suspicious of heteroflexible
men because most of the ones that i've met they
are as i said either using it to try to pick
up women by seeming like they're more evolved
in some way which is crazy because There's nothing
unevolved about being straight. That's just your
sexuality. Or sometimes they're using it in a
transphobic way to be like, oh, I'm attracted
to women, even if they've got a penis. It's like,
OK, so you're straight. Those are women. Yeah,
that makes that makes sense. I will continue
to be a little bit suspicious. But yeah, I can
see that perspective. And I think I do. I feel
a little bit like kind of. Because I am a younger
Generation X. I am at the tail end of Generation
X. On the cusp. I'm on the cusp. There was a
brief period where we all tried to convince ourselves
that we were a different micro -generation. It's
like, no, we are different to the Millennials.
We give fewer fucks than the Millennials, generally.
But I think there is a little bit of older Generation
X in me as well, about... um the language evolving
in the way that it does but in queer spaces leading
to more and more specific labels and really kind
of very very niche labels as well and i think
there is peril in that and you sometimes see
and the internet is not the yardstick by which
we should be measuring discourse on anything
but the more labels we create and the more specific
our labels get the more divided we become, I
think is the danger. I get where you're coming
from, but I am. I am a millennial. So yeah, I
have a different vibe. I think having those sort
of umbrella terms for quick communication is
really helpful. A lot of people who are using
the really specific micro labels are more looking
for a feeling of, oh my God, there is something
that applies to me, something really specific
that applies to me, because that feels really
good when you find that. And often we'll have
other labels that they use as their general sort
of descriptors alongside it. because yeah like
there's always that moment where someone you're
talking to someone about their identity and they
use a word and you're like i'm sorry what does
that mean but it's always a little bit awkward
where it's like actually the point of these terms
is so that i know what you mean but also it's
quite cool to find descriptions for experiences
that you thought were a unique experience yeah
and then there's someone on tumblr has come up
for a word for it i'm like oh my god same yeah
that's really nice so i think i think there's
value to all of it as long as we don't allow
it to make us divided and still recognize ourselves
as all being part of this interconnected queer
community and having commonality with people
who use a different micro label to you but are
still part of the same sort of general broader
range of experiences yeah there's balance there
yeah yeah i get that like i find finding a word
that fits can be really can be really positive
can be really affirming for people and i wouldn't
want to deny people that i just worry about the
balkanization of the queer community As we break
ourselves down into ever increasingly small nation
states, then actually we lose something really,
really valuable. Yeah. And it's just as important
to remember that my words are different to your
words, but we're all part of the same family.
Yeah. You know? This is a spicy take, though,
coming from the generation that brought us metrosexual.
I never got on board with metrosexual. Never
got on board. I saw through that from day fucking
one. Metrosexual means you had a fucking shower.
piss off with that bullshit yeah it is alarming
that there was a time where we thought we needed
a special word for men who knew how to wash their
own ass yeah and that was a hundred percent driven
by the media yeah and i think that's the difference
is even niche queer media are not necessarily
coming up with all of these new labels some of
them will be i suppose but a lot of the new words
that come along at least they are coming from
the community yeah i can't remember where metrosexual
came from but it was some fucking magazine yeah
um And millennials, we had ladettes, which was
just as toxic. Yes, we did. Imagine women watching
football and drinking beer. What? What? How could
that? It was very much like women who like to
do things that only men should be doing. Absolute
misogyny. And loads of people who didn't think
of themselves as misogynists got very on board
with it. Lots of media panics around it, like,
oh my God, who's going to raise the children
and cook the dinner if the women are at the pub?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nuts. But we are missing
the most important part of the debate about pansexual
versus bisexual. Oh, yes. Which is the flag.
Pansexual flag is cooler. Lies. I am absolutely
correct. The pan flag is the best one. Nope.
Nope. It's not even the best out of the two.
It totally is. It's so pretty. Like even before
I knew it was the pansexual flag, possibly before
it was the pansexual flag, I'm not sure when
this was come up with, like yellow, blue and
pink just look so good together. I have done
that as nail colours. I've done that with outfits,
like bright, bright colours that just slightly
clash a little bit. So good. See, whereas I like
the bisexual flag for pretty much the opposite
reasons. The colours kind of blend really nicely
together. Yeah. You know, the other colours have
a really gorgeous sunset, you know, kind of blues
and pinks and purples and stuff. Yeah. It's like,
you know, when you look at the sky, you go, oh
my God, the sky is on fire tonight. I think I
would like the bi flag more if the blue and the
purple were slightly brighter ones. They're a
little bit muted. I like really bright colours.
I did really enjoy it. The first Pride I went
to, I dressed up as the bisexual flag. So I had
a blue skirt, a big, poofy, bright blue skirt.
I had a bright pink sort of frilly top and then
a thick sort of like sash belt around my waist
that was purple. And it looked really cool. But
it would have looked even cooler in the pan colours.
I mean, that would have looked, yeah, the pan,
that would have looked great. You would have
looked amazing. Yeah. But it's still not as good
as a flag. Because the blue in the pansexual
flag is a brighter shade of blue, and then it's
got the bright yellow in there, and it's like,
this is good. Yeah. This is what I like. You're
just attracted to the bright colours. I do like
bright colours, yeah. That's fair. But then we
had pride flag Christmas trees, didn't we? We
did, yes. We went for the bi flag. Well, I had
the baubles for the bi flag and the non -binary
flag. Yes. Which was very cool. Yeah. So our
first Christmas together, we did the non -binary
tree. So we used the white tree with the yellow,
black and purple baubles. And I really like the
non -binary flag. A lot of people think that
one's ugly. They're like, these colours don't
go together. What the fuck is this? I love it.
That one's probably actually my favourite flag.
So I've got the non -binary flag and the pansexual
flag that apply to me. And both of them are the
best. Yeah, true. I do really like the non -binary
flag as well. It is very cool. Partly because
it's got black in it. Like my soul. So as you've
already touched on, you are often perceived as
a 47 -year -old man. Yes. And I am generally
perceived as a plastic Barbie doll. Yes. But
we are both non -binary. Mm -hmm. Are we actually
quite gamics? Yes. Yes. Yes, we are. And I really
like that, especially since we started doing
the bimbofication. I really like that to the
outside world. We kind of pass as a straight
couple. Like, on first glance, kind of pass as
a straight couple. But we're not. Yeah. Secret
gays. Secret, secret, yeah, secret agent queers.
You know? Not in a closeted, hidden way. In a
infiltrating the enemy way. Like, I really enjoy
that. No, same. I think, as you say, it's not
about being closeted or actually trying to pass
as straight. It's like... we have a surprise
that we will release at the appropriate moment.
Yeah. And it's fun. It is really fun. I think
it was also fun that we did definitely look gayer
when we first got together because then you got
to have the experience of being in a gay presenting
relationship before I started to look like this.
Yeah. I was just thinking we probably looked
to the outside world, to the casual observer,
probably looked more like a queer couple when
we got together. Yeah. primarily because of the
way that you were presenting. I still look like
a, well, I was 45 at the time. 44, right at the
start. 44, yeah. But I still look like a man.
I am man -shaped. I would say you will be perceived
as a man to the world in general, but you do
not look like a man. You look like Mix, who is
a non -binary person. you do not look like anyone
else that i've ever seen you look exactly like
you and you are non -binary yeah but you present
in a masculine way yes that is very affirming
of you to say um but yeah i especially enjoy
when people get it wrong like not in a malicious
way not in a mean way just in a in a they're
not paying very much attention kind of way so
we are recording this a couple of days after
my birthday where you very generously um whisked
me away to london we had a stay in a really fancy
hotel in london we went to see hamilton which
was amazing um but every time a bill was presented
it was presented to me yeah and like even when
we checked in to the hotel i kind of loitered
about like away from the desk and they seemed
really surprised to be dealing with you yeah
who is clearly the woman in the relationship
um uh on account of your boobs so it's that double
assumption isn't it the assumption that i'm a
woman and the assumption that therefore i shouldn't
be paying for anything yeah like in the restaurant
where i asked for the bill i asked for the bill
and was sitting there holding my wallet and they
put the bill down in front of you yeah yeah it's
like what are you doing yeah and it was really
subtle it was it was obvious because we were
kind of probably subconsciously looking for it
but it was really subtle because the bill was
facing me yeah And it's like, I don't care what
that says. None of my business. Because you were
treating me. So it's stuff like that that I enjoy,
you know, kind of in a slightly snarky way. The
one I always enjoy is if I spot something I'm
concerned about with your health and I send you
to the doctor. Yes. The doctor has not only assigned
me female, even though you've only ever said
partner, but has also decided we must be married
because they're always like, oh, will this stop
your wife worrying? Yeah, yeah. It's because
I'm doing the typical wife thing. Yeah. They're
making that assumption because only a wife would
be sending her husband to the doctor. Yeah. Yeah,
yeah. There's an evidence base for that. Like,
that's why married men live longer, because their
wife sends them to the doctor. But yeah, they
just can't imagine that happening in any other
type of relationship. No, no. And you're right.
I always use the word partner because that is
the word to describe you. Yeah. And I even said
the last time I went to the doctor about something,
I said, so can I go home and tell my partner
that it's fine? And then the nurse said, I'm
going to send you home with some antibiotics
so she'll be fine. Yeah, OK. and it's not the
kind of argument i want to have in a doctor's
surgery but it is a little bit frustrating i
suppose it's a little bit mildly annoying when
it happens but it is mostly amusing yeah because
it is that it is that firstly the assumption
about our genders but as as i said with the restaurant
bill and stuff it's that assumption of what the
role of a woman is to essentially become the
mother of a useless man yeah and that's not what
it is i just i have more health -related anxiety
than you yeah and i see what's going on with
your health from an external perspective and
you do the same thing to me you sort of bullied
me into getting medical attention for my back
and yeah yeah anytime i've been poorly you're
like if this goes on more than another couple
of days i'm taking you to the doctor i'm like
oh so it's it's a mutual thing when you're in
a relationship you take care of each other but
there is that assumption that a woman's place
in a relationship is to to fuss over and care
for a man and also any children they might have
and also the house and also she has to be on
the top of her game in her career now because
we've accepted that women can do that but not
taking the pressure off anywhere else it's yeah
yeah it's fucked up but it's fun to to snark
about yes a little bit yeah um so yes we are
definitely in a queer relationship which is great
Yeah. And that seems to be all I'm capable of.
It's funny, like I had such a slow start in my
teens of being like, oh, I'm bi and I really
want to date girls, but I don't know how to do
that. So I'm just going to date loads of guys.
Since 19, like I have not done a straight relationship.
Like, I thought I did a couple of times. So my
ex -wife, when we got together, I was identifying
as a woman, they were identifying as a man, but
that did not last very long. Essentially swapped,
both non -binary, but at the other end of the
gender spectrum from each other. The girlfriend,
as I thought at the time, that I had for about
a year during that relationship, later transitioned
and is transmasc. Obviously, I'm in a relationship
with you. yeah it's non -binary my last relationship
was with a woman my relationship with that was
with someone non -binary um like it's just that's
just what seems to happen i've had hookups with
cis men and cis women but my actual relationships
have all been with trans people and there's a
label some trans people use of t for t so right
trans for trans i was gonna ask about that yeah
do we count as t for t yes mix because we're
both non -binary which is right trans okay so
yes we do um but some people it's not just they
label their relationships as that they'll like
that's part of their identity as they exclusively
date trans people right and i've never made that
decision at any point and still haven't you know
obviously i expect to be with you forever so
yeah t for t forever but if i was single again
i wouldn't be like ruling out the possibility
of dating someone who wasn't trans but my history
suggests i probably wouldn't And I think for
me, it's just so much easier to explain being
non -binary to someone who has explored their
own gender. So if I was to date someone who wasn't
trans, it would probably be someone who'd kind
of gone through a period of questioning their
gender and really seriously thought about it.
Because those conversations are just much easier
and I don't have to sort of justify myself or
feel like I'm having to prove my gender to anybody.
I can just kind of chill and exist. Yeah, I think
that's fair. I think, yeah, I think there's something
about even if you haven't gone through that really
deep examination, you at least have an understanding
of who you are and how that fits. Yeah. In that
broader range of thinking, I suppose. Yeah. We
are both operating on the assumption that this
is the last relationship either of us get into.
Yeah. But like, I guess for me, it wouldn't be
necessary that people have questioned their gender,
but they have at least examined the concept of
gender. Yeah. And have that baseline level of
understanding. Yeah. I suppose would be important.
to me yeah um i'm really finding it particularly
good being i mean i'm finding it great being
in a relationship with you for lots of reasons
but with you being non -binary those conversations
have been much easier yeah than um so my ex hope
is a trans woman and is very much binary all
woman 100 identifies as a woman um so she has
a really good understanding of figuring out that
you're trans and that your gender isn't what
you're assigned at birth and things like that
and she in theory understands what non -binary
is and is supportive of non -binary people and
validating all of that stuff but there was still
definitely times where i was talking about my
feelings of gender where i could see she just
didn't quite get it yeah or would try to be really
affirming by putting me in a very masculine box
sort of using lots and lots of really gendered
male terms yeah like we'd always call me handsome
not pretty and things like that and it's like
i see what you're doing and i love the intention
and it's really sweet yeah but i'm a bit more
complicated than that yeah and with you and when
i've been in relationships with non -binary people
before that always feels a little bit easier
yeah so i think i might actually be non -binary
for non -binary As a preference, at least, if
not a hard rule. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I think
using the right words can be tricky sometimes.
I can see why Hope did what she did. I can really
see the intent behind what she was doing, trying
to be kind of affirming of what was at that time
your desire to present in a more mask way. Maybe
overshot a little bit. And I was never mad about
it. No. It's just it's easier when I don't have
to do the 101 for it. No, but then it made me
think about the words I used to use for you.
So I call you baby boy. Yeah. As like a pet name.
But I do use words like beautiful and gorgeous,
which are in my head anyway, relatively gendered
terms. I feel like gorgeous is quite neutral.
I feel like that one is a neutral one, but beautiful
and pretty tend to be seen as more feminine.
Yeah. And I will use both of those words? Well,
I suppose I will use all three of those words,
which might be the point, I suppose. Yeah, I
think you, it seems, from my perspective at least,
pretty effortlessly and naturally get a range
of language that all feels correct. And when
you're unsure, you check as well. Yeah. So you've
asked about, like, how does this feel? Does this
feel all right? Is this something where you're
happy with a gendered word or do you need me
to use something completely neutral? Yeah, yeah.
Okay, good. i definitely use some typically gendered
stereotypically gendered words yeah to describe
you but good okay i'm pleased that that all feels
okay and i feel like you would have said yeah
if if it didn't i feel like we would have had
this conversation not on microphone yeah and
if anything hope had said would have been like
wrong we would have had that conversation. It
was never like, like I said, I was never mad
about it. It was just like, I could see the cogs
turning a little bit where she was working really
hard to be actively affirming and sometimes overshooting
a bit. Where with you, it doesn't ever, and now
we've just talked about it, maybe you are overthinking
it, but you certainly hide it better. Fair. I
think there is another area where I am at risk
of possibly overthinking is when I asked about
T for T dating and whether we... counted because
i sometimes worry that labeling i am non -binary
i'm a non -binary person but i sometimes worry
that kind of counting myself within the trans
umbrella is somehow disrespectful of trans people
which in my fairly simplistic head is an identity
in its own right and doesn't need to be co -opted
by people like me i think a lot of non -binary
people struggle with that yeah so transgender
means that you identify as a gender that is not
the one you're assigned at birth yeah so non
-binary by definition counts because no one was
assigned non -binary at birth even intersex people
they they still get put into a box so non -binary
people are trans sort of on that basis um There
is also the term transsexual, which has become
less popular over time. Like a lot of trans people
don't like it. Some people still really do. But
transsexual specifically is about changing your
sex. It's about going through medical transition.
So people who would identify with the term transsexual,
which no one has to use if they don't want to,
but people who do are people generally who've
had some kind of medical elements to their transition.
So I could be classed as transsexual as well.
It's not a term I use for myself, but because
I have done medical stuff as part of my transition.
would but trans is usually understood to be short
for transgender which is much more varied and
there will always be debate and discourse about
who fits under the umbrella and who doesn't but
non -binary people 100 % are allowed to if they
want to yeah um and some non -binary people don't
want to if they feel like their gender is very
closely aligned to what they were assigned at
birth and it's it's more of a minor variance
they might not but a lot of it is like we talked
about with internalized biphobia might be why
someone might choose a label like heteroflexible
internalized transphobia is often why non -binary
people think they're not allowed to claim that
term Because you would never say to someone else,
you're not trans enough to call yourself trans.
No. But you will say it to yourself. Yeah, that's
a fair point. I think I was coming at it from
more of an experiential position. Maybe thinking
specifically about myself is the experience that
the average trans man will have is very different
to the experience that I have had and will have
as a non -binary man -shaped person. Yeah. And
so in my head, there is a risk of either that
I am perceived to be trying to co -opt the experiences
of trans men. And I'm using trans men as the
example because I am man -shaped. It seems like
a logical comparison, but it applies equally
to trans women. So, yeah, it feels like it could
be perceived that I am trying to co -opt that
experience and go, well, I am oppressed in the
same way. well i am simply not yeah i can kind
of quite easily fly under the radar as a non
-binary person if i so choose because no one's
going to say anything yeah but invisibility is
not a privilege it can sometimes be a protective
factor but it's not a privilege it comes with
its own pressures and the thing is like those
different experiences will still happen even
if you take non -binary people completely out
the equation trans men and trans women don't
experience oppression in the same ways there
is some overlap but there are also some major
differences between sort of generalized transphobia
and specific trans misogyny. A trans person of
colour is going to have very different experiences
to a white trans person. A trans person living
in some of the really high risk countries, like
parts of South America, for example, in the United
States, is experiencing transphobia and trans
misogyny very, very differently to a trans person
living in the UK, where our rate of transphobic
violence is incredibly low. But on the flip side,
a trans person living in most of the rest of
Europe is probably having a better experience
than trans people in the UK right now with what
our government is doing. So even if you ignore
non -binary people, you could take 100 different
trans people from around the world and their
experiences of oppression and intersectionality
and the things that they do have access to and
the things that they don't are going to vary
wildly. So acknowledging that like our identity
is not oppression based. you don't have to be
this oppressed to join it's about who we are
as people and the things that we have in common
and like you said about not allowing the specifics
of our labels to fragment us yeah and that we
are having a shared experience but that yeah
absolutely also recognizing the The privilege
of if you are someone who doesn't need to access
medical transition to feel comfortable in yourself,
if you're not living in a country where your
identity is criminalised or subject to really
extreme levels of violence, if you are someone
who generally isn't perceived as being trans
in any way, like you are having advantages there,
but that doesn't deprive you of your identity.
True. And like you say, actually, I need to...
shift my mindset a little bit and go yeah i am
a non -binary person with quite a lot of privilege
so let's do something with that yeah rather than
reusing it as a reason to like hide away a little
bit yeah yeah and i know i already said this
but i think it bears repeating invisibility is
not a privilege it can protect you it can be
a shield but something i've experienced with
identifying as bisexual and pansexual but being
in sort of straight appearing relationships at
times something that you experience as a non
-binary person and i'm experiencing more as a
non -binary person who's quite femme presenting
now is that the constant sort of invalidation
and erasure of your identity can be really quite
damaging yeah um and i'm reaching the i'm in
my gen x era as well of not giving a fuck yeah
but something that i found when i presented really
androgynously or more masculine is a lot of people
would actively sort of validate me by throwing
other non -binary people under the bus. It makes
me like, oh, I always thought non -binary people
were just attention seekers and making stuff
up, but you obviously are. You're a non -binary
person. I'm like, no, no, I'm just androgynous.
That doesn't make me more valid. And no one says
that to me anymore because I'm now the kind of
non -binary person that people just roll their
eyes at and go, oh, that's just a woman who wants
to be different. And that is harmful in its own
way. Like I was more visible and more at risk
while looking visibly non -binary. Yeah. But
now I have that to deal with while also dealing
with the fact that because of things that I've
done as part of my medical transition, I don't
100 % completely pass as a woman, even though
that's what I was assigned at birth. Yeah, yeah.
So I do sometimes get people doing a double take
when I walk into the ladies' toilets because
I can't really go in the men's now looking like
this. Yeah. but i've got a little bit of stubble
and a deep voice and i'm tall anyway yeah and
now it's like oh god is that a trans woman so
i get this like weird misdirected trans misogyny
as well yeah so it's never as straightforward
as well i fit in this box so i've got loads of
privilege it's like you fit in that box so you
get a certain conditional privilege and that's
not quite the same thing yeah that is true anyway
should we get back to sexuality We should do
that. That was a heck of a diversion, wasn't
it? I mean, it was a diversion that was in the
outline because it was about our sexuality as
relates to gender. Yeah, that is true. So the
last thing I think we wanted to talk about was,
and it goes back to something, the word I made
up earlier on, domosexual, which is definitely
what you are. But it does raise the question
of whether or not being kinky is in itself a
sexuality. Yeah, Mix. And for me, I would say
it definitely is. Like, we joke about domosexual,
but I am increasingly starting to identify myself
more as a submissive than I am as a pansexual.
Because for me, the move to identifying as pansexual
happened around the time that I started exploring
kink more and started recognising what it actually
was that I looked for in relationships. Like,
what I looked for to establish my attraction
to somebody was someone that I felt could dominate
me and lead me, even before I figured out I was
kinky. Like, I looked fair. traits that i associated
with that um so i realized that defining my sexuality
primarily by gender didn't really make sense
because that wasn't really particularly relevant
to me anymore so pansexual this attraction regardless
of gender felt like a good fit but i've started
to feel over the last couple of years that i'm
still what i'm doing now is essentially defining
my sexuality by what it's not Yeah. Saying my
attraction to people is not based on gender,
but I'm not giving the information on what it
is based on. And what it's based on for me is
dominance. I'm attracted to dominance and sadists.
Ideally, ideally, people need to be both. Really,
that's my type. There's an element of sort of
connection with personality and emotional intelligence
and those things. But those are more my standards
for a relationship than they are required for
my attraction. I can be attracted to people and
have casual hookups with them without. necessarily
feeling like they are suitable for me to have
a relationship with but i'm not attracted at
all if they aren't dominant right so i'm starting
to feel like now like if i'm asked what my sexual
orientation is the actual honest answer is that
i'm a submissive i'm attractive to people who
are dominance my my sort of mirror in that is
what i'm looking for yeah so that's the case
for me i know that's not the case for everybody
there's a lot of kinky people who it's more like
a hobby for them or it's something that enhances
their sex life or their intimate life or their
relationships. And it's not even a necessary
factor to have in a relationship. And it's definitely
not part of the initial attraction. Yeah. For
me, it definitely is. Yeah. And I think probably
for me too, I kind of haven't gone through that
thought process of, is my sexual identity, my
sexuality dominant, submissive sexual? Sub -sexual,
I suppose. So I think I couldn't, now that I've
been in the kind of relationship that we have
been in, and hopefully this will be the last
relationship that I am in, so this is completely
hypothetical and irrelevant, but I don't think
I could be in a long -term relationship with
someone where there wasn't an element of power
exchange. So I would be looking for someone whose
orientation is submissive. Yeah. I guess I haven't
necessarily made the connection between those
two things in my head. My sexuality and my kink
orientation are two parts of my identity, two
really important parts of my identity, rather
than being my identity. Yeah. If that makes sense.
It does, yeah, Mix. And I think my perception
from having talked to you about this before,
the difference between us is the initial attraction
is not possible for me without... some indication
of dominance they don't necessarily need to be
someone who identifies themselves as a dominant
they might not have any kink experience at all
but there needs to be something i see in them
that is a dominant quality yeah for me to experience
any level of attraction like physical sort of
romantic any of that i need to perceive dominance
in someone where i think for you the initial
spark of attraction can be there Yeah. But then
if you got to know them and found out they didn't
want any kind of power exchange in the relationship,
that would be a deal breaker in terms of compatibility,
but it wouldn't be the attraction. Yeah. I think
that's where we experience it a little bit differently.
Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah. I could be attracted
to people who aren't submissive, but I wouldn't
want to be in a long term relationship with them.
Yeah. I think like one of the. the labels that
i've never used but has sort of floated around
on the edge of my perception occasionally i've
looked at and gone maybe that's me is demisexual
which is where you're not physically attracted
to someone unless you have some sort of emotional
connection first yeah The reason I don't use
it is typically the people who use the term demisexual,
that's quite a lengthy process where they have
to build an emotional connection over a period
of time. It can be almost instant for me, but
I don't experience physical attraction until
I'm attracted to the person mentally first. Right.
So, you know, if I'm swiping through dating apps,
I'll look at the pictures and I might think that's
a nice picture you've taken aesthetically. I
can appreciate it. But I've never messaged someone
or swiped whichever way you swipe to match with
someone if they didn't have interesting... text
in their profile or something that gives me a
bit of their personality so a picture showing
them doing an activity that makes their their
personality seem interesting to me yeah my attraction
is very much something that's happening in in
the mental space yeah and then once i've got
that that mental connection then the physical
attraction can follow and as i said it can be
very quickly it could be a five minute conversation
and then i'll start thinking they're super hot
to look at as well yeah but that doesn't come
first so i think if i was going to move to another
of the sort of standard set of sexuality labels
maybe demisexual would be it but because i know
exactly what the thing is that i'm looking for
from the mental connection and it's the dominance
yeah it makes more sense to really justify myself
as a submissive and the rest of it is is kind
of just noise for me yeah Because demisexuality
is about placing yourself on the spectrum between
asexual and allosexual. And pansexual is about
placing yourself on the spectrum between gay
and straight. And actually, none of that is particularly
relevant to me. I'm horny as fuck for a dominant.
So that's the important bit of information there.
Yeah, fair. So just in case people aren't familiar,
allosexual? Allosexual is the opposite of asexual
mix. So someone who does experience sexual attraction.
right in a typical way in the way that you would
expect yeah okay it's dead interesting to think
about isn't it like what is it that drives sexual
attraction and sexuality and like a lot of the
labels are kind of built around the gender binary
yeah or the gender spectrum yeah um or about
physical attraction yeah um yeah the majority
of sexuality terms do It makes the assumption
that sexuality is always something to do with
gender, even if gender isn't important to your
sexuality. And actually the things that make
people attracted to each other are often about
a lot more than that, often about a range of
things. And I'm not just talking about the things
that you're looking for to have a healthy, positive,
fulfilling relationship with someone. I mean
that initial thing that makes you go, God, I
want to fuck them or God, I want to date them
before you've actually analysed whether that's
something you're going to do or not. Yeah. Even
then, it often isn't just about sort of sex characteristics,
gender expression, physical appearance. It is
often more complicated than that for other people.
Like I can, as I said, I can aesthetically appreciate
a good looking person. But in the same way, I
appreciate a piece of art on the wall. I don't
want to fuck someone based on what they look
like. I want to fuck someone based on what's
going on in their brain. yeah and i think for
a start a lot of people don't really sort of
acknowledge that as a thing and when people do
they often act like that means you're more evolved
or special or something it's like no like i can
still have casual sex and yeah just want to hook
up with someone because they get me hot and bothered
like i can still be really shallow about it it's
just the things i'm shallow about are different
yeah another dead interesting podcast i hope
people found that interesting i just it is obviously
always good to talk about kinky things But it
is also just as much fun to kind of delve into
stuff that's kink adjacent. Yeah. You know, because
there's that. We've said it before, and I think
we've said it, we will continue to say it. The
Venn diagram of kinky people and queer people
is not a circle. But there is definitely a good
amount of kind of overlap, isn't there? And it's
always fascinating to think about, is that a
directional thing? yeah are kind of people who
have queer sexualities more likely to be kinky
or are kinky people more likely to have queer
sexualities or is it just random yeah i really
liked when we had lydia on the podcast yes the
founder of kilter um talking about her experiences
as a kinky lesbian one of her theories for why
there is that strong overlap between the two
is that if you're a queer person you're having
to sort of acquaint yourself with more equipment
and education yeah so you're having to go looking
for things that are a little bit off the standard
menu anyway yeah um you know if you're going
out to buy a strap -on harness yeah you might
pick up a flogger while you're at it yeah yeah
your curiosity is going to be drawn where if
you're straight i think about you know the first
time i tried anal sex in a as far as i knew at
the time completely straight relationship you
know i was i was identifying as a woman i was
in a relationship with a man we were both way
too embarrassed to buy lube google any safety
information learn anything about you know pre
-play clean up any of that and we just had a
terrible time we just had some really bad anal
sex yeah yeah where if you are if your sort of
normal sex is already seen as a little bit outside
the norm you kind of have to get over that at
a certain point relatively quickly so you might
find your way into kink a little bit easier yeah
so i think that's a solid theory yeah yeah well
there you go on that note let's go and have a
cup of tea bye See you next time.