WEBVTT

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So this is the last episode in the Pride Month?

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No, Mix, the last episode in Pride Month is leather.

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But this is the last one we have to record. Right.

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Because we do not experience time in a linear

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fashion. Time isn't real. No. Welcome to Don't

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Scare the Newbies, a podcast where we talk kink,

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raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizal, a lifestyle

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submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who likes their

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kink heavy, intense and scary. And I'm S, Carizal's

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dominant who knows how to deliver all of the

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above. And today we're going to be talking about

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sexuality and sexual orientation. Oh, spicy.

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So this is part of our continuing Pride month

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run of episodes. Yeah. Pride season, if you will.

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That's what I should have said. Pride season.

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Pride season. We have one more to go. We do,

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yes. After this, where we'll be talking to some

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really interesting people about leather stuff.

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So stick around for that. Amazing. And it's another

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one of those episodes where people who are here

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for a kink podcast go, well, what has sexuality

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got to do with kink? And I think it's a really

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interesting intersection, isn't there, between

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kind of, for us anyway, between kink and sex

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and our sexual orientation and stuff like that.

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And actually whether being kinky is a sexual

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orientation in itself. Yeah. And I think these

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things are always tangled up to an extent, even

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if people individually feel that their sexual

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orientation, their sort of general sexuality,

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like what? what sort of sexually excites them

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and what forms part of a sexual relationship

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for them how they do kink if those all sit in

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very separate boxes from each other there's always

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going to be lines you can draw between them connections

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you can draw and even just in how you're perceived

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these things make up parts of your identity so

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it's interesting to talk about yeah and this

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is one of those episodes where it's just nice

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to talk a little bit more about who we are yeah

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like we did with the gender episode yeah Exactly.

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You know, kind of give people a bit more of an

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idea of who we are as people as well as being

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shamelessly kinky perverts. Yeah. We are also

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fully formed human beings. Definitely. And I

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think I've started to get more confident that

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people who like listening to us will like listening

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to us. Like when we did the long distance relationships

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episode that had some kink in it, but it was

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relatively light on the kink. Yeah. And we did

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the episode about addiction and recovery where

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again, like the first hour of it was just. Like,

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everyone cried. I am sorry to everyone who...

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I've had comments where people had to pull their

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car over, where people cried on trains. Yeah,

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yeah. I think we caught a lot of people unawares

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with that one, even with all the content notes

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on there. Yes. But people have always responded

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well to it, so... Yeah. I don't know, watch this

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space, maybe we'll just start talking about all

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kinds of random stuff with the most tenuous kink

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connections we can find. Yes, yeah. Ever -increasing

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tangential connections to kink. Yes. Well, while

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we're telling people about ourselves, we have

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some news to share with people, don't we? We

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do, yes, Mix. And probably a lot of people will

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have seen this on Instagram and TikTok already.

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Yeah. And people who listen to our Patreon will

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be like, oh, this is old news. Yeah. Patreon

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people found out back in May. So this is a great

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advert, if ever there was one, for signing up

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for the Patreon. Because the people on Patreon

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got to find out first that we are engaged. We

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are. hurrah amazing you're staring blankly at

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me they go are we shit but yes we got engaged

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in may do you remember the date in may mix eighth

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no mix no no mix 16th no mix oh god when was

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it it was the 10th of may oh my god It is a new

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anniversary. I haven't yet committed that one

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to memory. You'll get there. I'll get there eventually.

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So, yeah, we got engaged on the 10th of May quite

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spontaneously. If you want to hear all about

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it, go over to Patreon. But yes, spontaneous

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engagement. And I held off on posting it on socials

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because I wanted to post it with a visual accompaniment.

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And we had to wait a little while for my engagement

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ring to be special ordered in. Yes. And now it's

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here. It is. And now we're telling everyone.

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And it is beautiful. And it's very exciting.

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I still don't have one. That is our next plan.

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We need to figure out what kind of engagement

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ring you want and then find it for you. Find

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one. Yes. A cheap one. What? No. You have spent

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so much on mine. I know, but that's... Let me

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spoil you. Let me treat you. You're so resistant

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to this. Yes. A few weeks ago, we were away in

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London for Mix's birthday, their birthday, and

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I had to fight them every step of the way to

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let me pay for things. I would I would have to

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be so quick with my card in hand anytime we went

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anywhere where money could be spent, because

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before I knew it, they would be heading for the

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swiping card devices. Yeah, I am kind of like

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that. I struggle with the concept of being spoilt

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personally. And yet you're into fin dom, make

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it make sense. Yeah. That's just how we need

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to frame it. Like frame it as you fin doming

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me into buying you a ring. Yeah, true. And that

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is kind of how, on a couple of occasions, how

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we framed the birthday as well. That's how you

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made it make sense to you, yeah. Yeah, that's

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the way that I rationalise it. But anyway, yes,

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we are engaged. That is very, very exciting.

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We do not have concrete plans. But no doubt we

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will talk about that over the course of the next

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period of time. Yes. It's very cool, very exciting,

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very happy. Yeah. But anyway, we're not here

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to talk about engagement and marriage and weddings,

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though I'm sure at some point we will be. Today

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we are here to talk about sexual orientation.

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Yes, we are. Well, why don't you start us off?

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Tell us about how you worked out your sexuality

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and where you're at today. Yeah, Mix. So I've

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definitely been on a journey, as we like to say.

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As we like to say. I definitely, so I was, I'm

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non -binary, but I was assigned female at birth.

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So I grew up as a girl. And when I was a really

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small child, I didn't have much concept of having

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a sexual orientation, but just kind of expected

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to be straight by default. That's all I'd been

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taught about. I definitely heard about gay people

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existing when I was quite young. I don't remember.

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where i was taught about that but i feel like

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i was taught it in a relatively neutral way considering

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it was the early 90s and i was being brought

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up in a quite strictly christian home it wasn't

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ever presented as a really terrible thing it

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wasn't presented as a positive either it was

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very much that's what some other people do and

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we don't do that but considering the time period

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and the upbringing i had it probably wasn't as

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negative as it could have been yeah um but i

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just didn't think that was me I grew up on Disney

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movies and was like, yeah, I'm going to be a

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Disney princess and get married to a prince and

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do all of that stuff. But I definitely found

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that I found girls interesting from really young.

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I got like sort of childhood crushes on boys

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and girls. Didn't really understand it or know

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what that was at the time, but in hindsight can

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really see that I was approaching my relationships

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with other kids my age in very similar ways to

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each other. and when i was in my early teens

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definitely started to realize that the people

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that i found attractive in that way the people

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that i would sort of get excited about being

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close to were both boys and girls and i came

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out as bi when i was 14 i had a as is i think

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the like such a common queer girl experience

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of having a massive crush on my best friend um

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absolutely like obsessed with her and then ended

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up getting a crush on another of my close female

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friends and was completely obsessed with her

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for like two years. Both of them straight, of

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course. Obviously. As always happens. Yes. So

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yeah, I came out when I was 14 and this was not

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a great time. So this would have been 2004. This

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was not a great time to be openly queer in a

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just regular comprehensive school or probably

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any school where I didn't know of any other kids

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who were out as any form of LGBT at that time.

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and this was only a year after section 28 had

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been repealed as well for anyone not familiar

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with that section 28 was a law in the uk where

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schools could not promote the homosexual ideology

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was possibly the phrasing of it probably uh they

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couldn't teach children about gay relationships

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about gay sex as part of sex ed they couldn't

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present it as a viable option in any way um i

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think there was sort of certain contexts where

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they could talk about it so like if they were

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talking about a historical figure being gay or

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speculated to be gay they could present like

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factual information but not anything that could

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be seen as encouraging it And a lot of schools

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were so afraid and a lot of teachers were so

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afraid of being prosecuted under Section 28 that

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they would take it even a step further than the

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law required. So they wouldn't defend LGBT kids

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from bullying because they would be concerned

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that that would be seen as promoting it. They

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wouldn't even allow you to have access to information

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or ask questions about information. They were

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very, very afraid of getting in trouble. getting

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a negative response to it. So although that was

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repealed before I came out, it was a few months

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before I came out and that culture hadn't changed.

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Most people probably weren't even aware that

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what they were allowed to do had changed. The

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curriculum certainly hadn't changed. So I came

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out at a time where sex ed was exclusively about

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straight relationships and straight sex, where

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even I remember being in a science class and

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they were talking about biology and puberty.

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And one of the things they said as an indicator

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of puberty was people start becoming attracted

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to the opposite sex. And I got a lot of trouble.

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I scribbled on my worksheet and crossed it out

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to say opposite sex or same sex and got detention.

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I obviously got bullied really badly. I was already

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getting bullied. I was a weird kid. But I started

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getting bullied a lot more and a lot more specifically

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about my sexuality. And when that happened, if

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I tried to go to teachers about it, I would get

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in trouble. And they said that I had been talking

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about inappropriate subjects for schools and

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telling children things about sex, which I had

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not. I just said I was bisexual. Yeah. So I wasn't

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protected at all from any of that. the bullying,

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that experience that had mainly been verbal up

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until that point ended up getting physical. I

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started getting physically attacked and teachers

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still wouldn't step in. So being openly queer

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in the early 2000s was not for the weak. It was,

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it sucked. But I was very sure that that was

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who I was. But I didn't have any experience with

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girls or with women until quite a bit later because

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no one else was out. I'm sure there were bi and

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lesbian girls at my school, but no one was out.

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And then I had some experiences with boys. They

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were a lot more accessible and a lot less scary,

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I think is a big part of it as well. More straightforward.

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Yeah. And then I went to college and then ended

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up moving to the Northeast with a guy that I

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was seeing at the time. And me and him, we weren't

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exactly non -monogamous, but as a lot of straight

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men with a bisexual girlfriend are, he was very

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keen on the idea of threesomes. Of a threesome,

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yeah. And that... like i'm not saying that's

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the ideal way to have your first sexual experiences

00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.460
with women but honestly for me it made it so

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much easier because i'd tried signing up for

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like lesbian dating websites and i just found

00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.279
women way more intimidating to talk to yeah and

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i didn't really know what i was doing and i hadn't

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got anywhere um but with him i basically just

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farmed it out to him i was like find us girls

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and then you can watch me have sex with a girl

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and i didn't have to take any responsibility

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for anything amazing work amazing work even before

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you realized you You were submissive and kinky.

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You were delegating decisions to other people.

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Yeah. So that was where my first experiences

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happened. And then that gave me a little bit

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more confidence with talking to women. So after

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me and him split up, I had more hookups with

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women over the next few years. My next relationship

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was an open relationship. And I continued to

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explore my sexuality with men and with women.

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Didn't really know non -binary people existed.

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was seeing it very much in those binary terms

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still but had a great time excellent stuff so

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it feels like an experience that probably quite

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a lot of people can can relate to it's sort of

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you know that feeling of being a little bit kind

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of outside or being placed outside the norm and

00:12:42.629 --> 00:12:45.210
then tentatively exploring as you got a little

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bit older and a little bit more confident yeah

00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:49.580
definitely a lot of the very stereotypical queer

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woman experiences of the crushes on the straight

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best friends and they're terrified of talking

00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.480
to women and for a lot of bisexual women i think

00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:58.419
defaulting to a lot more relationships with men

00:12:58.419 --> 00:13:00.659
because it's easier while always kind of feeling

00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:02.059
like you're missing out on something through

00:13:02.059 --> 00:13:05.200
that yeah yeah hit all of the all of the tropes

00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:08.159
there yeah and it's it's funny you say that because

00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.259
obviously i'll talk about my experience in a

00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.940
little bit but i kind of had the opposite where

00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:16.570
actually i've had men quite annoying you know

00:13:16.570 --> 00:13:19.590
yeah and as a consequence women were no less

00:13:19.590 --> 00:13:22.730
scary to talk to but definitely less annoying

00:13:22.730 --> 00:13:25.710
women and femme presenting people a little bit

00:13:25.710 --> 00:13:28.669
easier to get along with yeah um so if you get

00:13:28.669 --> 00:13:32.190
over the fear it then got easier yeah whereas

00:13:32.190 --> 00:13:34.909
getting over the fear and then talking to a man

00:13:34.909 --> 00:13:40.049
i was like good grief they're not always the

00:13:40.049 --> 00:13:42.970
most delightful though i did have a period of

00:13:42.970 --> 00:13:46.190
time where i my sexuality sort of shifted through

00:13:46.190 --> 00:13:47.970
my transition i had a period of time where i

00:13:47.970 --> 00:13:50.389
was really only interested in men or mask presenting

00:13:50.389 --> 00:13:52.690
people by that point i did know non -binary people

00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:55.529
existed and sort of masculine presenting and

00:13:55.529 --> 00:13:57.590
masculine leaning non -binary people were very

00:13:57.590 --> 00:14:01.299
much included but after i came out as non -binary

00:14:01.299 --> 00:14:03.980
i also started identifying as gay for a while

00:14:03.980 --> 00:14:06.100
gay in quite a loose term because yeah because

00:14:06.100 --> 00:14:09.259
i wasn't in a binary box but people towards my

00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:12.620
end of the gender spectrum um and this was during

00:14:12.620 --> 00:14:13.960
a period of time where i was on testosterone

00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:17.080
and that's a really common part of like early

00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:19.519
use of testosterone the first six months to a

00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.259
year quite a lot of trans masks find that they

00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:24.000
end up leaning a lot more gay than they have

00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.000
before right either developing an attraction

00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.019
to men if they previously identified as lesbian

00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:31.080
or just exclusively going like men only for a

00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.419
while and sometimes that stays that way and sometimes

00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:35.159
it swings back and no one really knows why it

00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.799
happens um i think there's an element of you

00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:39.460
getting more comfortable with yourself and that

00:14:39.460 --> 00:14:42.399
can allow you to inhabit different parts of your

00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.279
sexuality that you might have closed off for

00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.389
you just closing off parts of yourself in general

00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:48.990
but it was it was really interesting and i thought

00:14:48.990 --> 00:14:51.450
i had lost my bisexuality for a while and then

00:14:51.450 --> 00:14:52.929
during the period of time where i was doing a

00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:54.990
lot of drugs i got really high and had sex with

00:14:54.990 --> 00:14:57.250
a woman because we were both off our tits nice

00:14:57.250 --> 00:14:59.389
afterwards i was like oh yeah no still yeah yeah

00:14:59.389 --> 00:15:03.750
still right still bisexual that was great So

00:15:03.750 --> 00:15:06.230
was that like three coming outs then for you?

00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:08.710
Yeah, they definitely get easier over time because

00:15:08.710 --> 00:15:10.769
it's easier coming out when you're not in a high

00:15:10.769 --> 00:15:13.450
school. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. So I came out as

00:15:13.450 --> 00:15:16.149
bi when I was 14, came out as gay when I was,

00:15:16.149 --> 00:15:19.129
what would I have been, like 25, and then came

00:15:19.129 --> 00:15:22.269
out as bi again when I was 26. Right. And then

00:15:22.269 --> 00:15:24.070
came out as pansexual a couple of years after

00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:27.830
that. Yeah, just to keep it fresh. Which will

00:15:27.830 --> 00:15:29.990
come on to sort of that distinction between bisexual

00:15:29.990 --> 00:15:32.720
and pansexuality. Some people find that's a really

00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.360
important distinction. Some people just kind

00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.159
of pick a label based on vibes. But there was

00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:38.860
definitely a point where I felt it was time to

00:15:38.860 --> 00:15:40.620
switch from one to the other, which felt like

00:15:40.620 --> 00:15:42.700
less of a coming out, more of a clarification.

00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:45.879
And did you get any, obviously you talked about

00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:50.639
coming out as a teenager. And I think it is a

00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.139
shame and it is disappointing to hear that you

00:15:53.139 --> 00:15:55.080
had a negative response to that, but not massively

00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.600
surprising. Yeah. Given the time period and where

00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.559
you were. and all of that kind of stuff. When

00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:03.700
you were going through that period of transitioning

00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:06.360
and then coming out as gay and then deciding

00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.519
to come out as bisexual again and then clarifying

00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.720
that, what was the reaction of the people around

00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:14.519
you? Because a really mean version of that, and

00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:16.700
I've heard that specifically about bisexuals,

00:16:16.700 --> 00:16:20.820
is there's a lack of decisiveness to it. I didn't

00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:22.759
find that I had any negative reactions, at least

00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:24.559
not to my face and not that I ever found out

00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:26.259
about. I think there's definitely that stereotype

00:16:26.259 --> 00:16:29.100
that bisexuals are indecisive or that it's just

00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.039
a phase and you'll eventually end up gay or straight.

00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.740
I think because it happened very much alongside

00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:36.820
my transition, like most of my friend group at

00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:40.340
the time were trans people as well. The people

00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:41.940
who'd had negative reactions to me coming out

00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:43.679
as trans weren't part of my life anymore. So

00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.379
that sort of filtered out a lot of the crap before

00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:47.159
I had to deal with coming out as gay as well.

00:16:47.769 --> 00:16:49.190
And all the trans people were like, oh yeah,

00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:51.470
so you started on T like a month ago. So that

00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:55.789
tracks. No one was surprised. And then coming

00:16:55.789 --> 00:16:58.529
out as bi again, again, it's not uncommon for

00:16:58.529 --> 00:17:01.009
trans people to have their sexual identity shift

00:17:01.009 --> 00:17:03.169
around a little bit during those, even not just

00:17:03.169 --> 00:17:05.589
with hormones, just as part of the self -discovery

00:17:05.589 --> 00:17:08.049
of coming out as trans. You do tend to examine

00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:10.190
things and try things a little bit. And there's

00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:11.809
a lot more of an acceptance that trans people

00:17:11.809 --> 00:17:13.910
will, for lack of a better term, go through some

00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:16.259
phases. yes that's just a thing that happens

00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:19.259
uh the thing that was tough about it was at the

00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.519
time that i came out as non -binary i was married

00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.380
my ex -wife is a trans feminine person so they

00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:28.240
use they then pronouns but at the time that they

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:30.579
first came out we're using she her right and

00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:33.799
uh like on the sort of feminine end of the spectrum

00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.420
yeah and as i transitioned i found that sort

00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:39.789
of end of the gender spectrum didn't appeal to

00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:41.809
me for a period of time yeah our relationship

00:17:41.809 --> 00:17:44.430
had already become largely sexless by that point

00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:46.470
because of stuff that was going on with my mental

00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:48.750
health and the relationship starting to we were

00:17:48.750 --> 00:17:51.569
moving in different directions but i think me

00:17:51.569 --> 00:17:53.369
sort of essentially closing that door and saying

00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:55.690
no because of the gender that you are and because

00:17:55.690 --> 00:17:58.029
of the way my sexuality has changed yeah there's

00:17:58.029 --> 00:18:00.069
no potential there anymore i think that was quite

00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:02.269
rough yeah for them and rough for me because

00:18:02.269 --> 00:18:05.569
i felt terrible about that yeah and then i figured

00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:07.950
out i was bisexual again after we'd split up

00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.819
right and i felt really they never said anything

00:18:10.819 --> 00:18:12.759
about it but i always felt really terrible that

00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.119
they might have thought actually i'd just been

00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.500
saying i was gay because i didn't want to have

00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:17.539
sex with them which definitely wasn't the case

00:18:17.539 --> 00:18:20.740
yeah um and me sort of coming out as bi again

00:18:20.740 --> 00:18:23.740
after our relationship had ended i was nervous

00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:25.920
about doing it because of how that might be perceived

00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.380
either by them or by other people yeah but it's

00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:30.460
just that's just the way that shit goes sometimes

00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:33.460
and i don't think my sexuality being anywhere

00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.279
would have saved that relationship like it was

00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.240
yeah it was already fucked yeah for a lot of

00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:41.259
reasons but yeah that was the internal struggle

00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:43.400
I had but no one ever said anything negative

00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.140
about any of that to me yeah and me and my ex

00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:47.819
-wife stayed friends for a good number of years

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:50.519
after that so if they did feel some kind of way

00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:52.700
about it it obviously wasn't enough to blow up

00:18:52.700 --> 00:18:55.960
our relationship over yeah that makes sense So

00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:58.039
yeah, I've definitely experienced my sexuality

00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.420
as very fluid, which is one of those things that,

00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:01.839
again, people sometimes misapply. They're like,

00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.900
oh, sexuality is fluid. Everyone's a little bit

00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:05.700
bi, and I definitely don't think that's the case.

00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:08.519
Yeah. But for me, my sexuality has always been

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.359
quite fluid, where obviously there was that period

00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:13.180
of time where I didn't think I was bi anymore,

00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:15.579
but even... throughout the time that I've identified

00:19:15.579 --> 00:19:18.420
as bisexual, the times where I felt like I was

00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:20.180
leaning more towards the masculine end and more

00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:22.019
towards the feminine and would often seem to

00:19:22.019 --> 00:19:23.759
be quite reactive to whatever relationship I

00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.259
was in, where whatever I don't have at home,

00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.339
I'm now more interested in, which is why open

00:19:27.339 --> 00:19:30.819
relationships have been quite fun. But I've experienced

00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:32.759
it in a very fluid way, but it's reached a point

00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.420
now where it feels quite settled, where gender

00:19:35.420 --> 00:19:37.660
has become less and less relevant to how I experience

00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.940
sexuality over time. And now I feel pretty sure

00:19:40.940 --> 00:19:43.240
of where I'm at and it feels like a much more

00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.920
lasting phase. Yeah, that's fair. What about

00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.299
you, Mix? Because I know your journey has been

00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:50.720
very... Your journey... My journey... Has been

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:52.720
very different from mine. How did you figure

00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.920
out your sexuality? I was thinking about this

00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.579
when I was kind of making some fairly brief notes

00:19:58.579 --> 00:20:01.680
for this episode. And I think the answer is over

00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:06.960
a really fucking long time. because i have and

00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:09.160
i will refer to myself as a covid queer so i

00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:12.400
came out as bisexual and non -binary during the

00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:17.099
panic during the panic during the pandemic um

00:20:17.099 --> 00:20:19.839
because all i had was time and my own thoughts

00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:22.640
yeah and i think that was possibly just a timing

00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:24.680
thing and i think the thing for me is that's

00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:26.839
when i said it out loud and i said it to other

00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.599
people i think recognizing that i was not fully

00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.000
straight probably has been there for a really

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.799
long time I think when we talked about it on

00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:39.839
the gender episode, never really felt like a

00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.779
boy or a man, but didn't really feel like a woman

00:20:42.779 --> 00:20:45.140
either. So kind of thinking about the language

00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:47.079
that I had access to at the time, didn't feel

00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:48.700
like a man, didn't feel like a woman, didn't

00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:51.579
feel trans. So kind of retreated back to, oh,

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.019
well, I must be a boy and a man then. Yeah, it's

00:20:54.019 --> 00:20:56.619
like if nothing's motivating you to cross a line,

00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.500
you just stick with the default you've been given.

00:20:58.779 --> 00:21:00.759
Yeah. And because, you know, I grew up in the

00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.309
80s. 80s and 90s and that was not a fun time

00:21:04.309 --> 00:21:09.869
for people who were not heterosexual no um or

00:21:09.869 --> 00:21:12.910
aligned to the binary either as you've just described

00:21:12.910 --> 00:21:15.450
it will be a decade before we could talk about

00:21:15.450 --> 00:21:17.750
anything other than heterosexuality in schools

00:21:17.750 --> 00:21:24.069
um I never joined in on the kind of playground

00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:26.589
banter about, you know, using words like gay

00:21:26.589 --> 00:21:29.829
as slurs and kind of, they're a bit fruity kind

00:21:29.829 --> 00:21:32.410
of thing. All of that normalised stigmatising

00:21:32.410 --> 00:21:36.230
language around the LGBT community. I was exposed

00:21:36.230 --> 00:21:38.289
to a lot of that, but didn't really engage with

00:21:38.289 --> 00:21:40.910
it. Partly, I think, because it was cruel. I

00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:42.069
was like, well, that's just mean. Why would you

00:21:42.069 --> 00:21:44.049
say stuff like that? But I think looking back

00:21:44.049 --> 00:21:45.730
on it, there probably was a little bit of like

00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:49.190
being a little bit offended by it. Yeah. Because

00:21:49.190 --> 00:21:52.910
I didn't grow up thinking, yes, I am heterosexual.

00:21:53.349 --> 00:21:57.170
I like girls and women as a boy and then a man.

00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:02.970
You know, a little bit like you probably a little

00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:04.950
bit more low key. But, you know, there were definitely

00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:07.170
boys I went to school with. Something interesting

00:22:07.170 --> 00:22:10.180
about you that I quite like. but I don't know

00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:12.059
what it is. Some of my friends would occasionally

00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:16.839
question whether I was gay because I didn't show

00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.579
a massive amount of interest in girls when I

00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:21.519
was a young, young child. And I think I had that,

00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.720
I mean, you said it just now, everyone's a little

00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.359
bit bi sort of thing. When I started to experience

00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.319
attraction, I knew that I was attracted to women.

00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.720
I knew that I was attracted to kind of femme

00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.660
presenting people and thinking about the, like

00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:39.509
as a school age child. thinking about the boys

00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:41.509
where I was like, oh, you're a bit interesting.

00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:43.650
There's something I like about you. They were

00:22:43.650 --> 00:22:46.589
more at the femme end, I suppose. Yeah. You know,

00:22:46.589 --> 00:22:48.410
like quite delicate features, all of that sort

00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:53.950
of thing. But I kind of had that without having

00:22:53.950 --> 00:22:55.990
the words for it, that internalised biphobia,

00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:59.430
almost kind of, well, that's normal. Yeah. Everybody's...

00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:01.990
everybody's like that everybody can recognize

00:23:01.990 --> 00:23:04.569
when somebody is attractive can't they that was

00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:06.309
sort of a barrier to me figuring out for a little

00:23:06.309 --> 00:23:08.210
bit as well obviously didn't didn't take me as

00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:11.589
long but it still was a question i had in my

00:23:11.589 --> 00:23:13.390
head because i'd been sort of brought up being

00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:15.529
taught that like my mom talked quite a lot about

00:23:15.529 --> 00:23:17.369
how girls will always get crushes on their best

00:23:17.369 --> 00:23:18.950
friend and then you grow out of it and you marry

00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:23.199
a man yeah um so i mean probably she's bi is

00:23:23.199 --> 00:23:26.539
my takeaway from that now but at the time I was

00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:28.200
like oh yeah so straight women feel this way

00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.619
and I think that's where that everyone's a little

00:23:30.619 --> 00:23:32.460
bit bi messaging can be quite harmful it can

00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:33.960
be really harmful to gay people who are like

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.579
no I am I am gay but it can also be really hard

00:23:36.579 --> 00:23:38.359
for bisexuals to figure out they're actually

00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.519
bi and not just yeah well everyone's feeling

00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.700
that way everyone's like that yeah so I think

00:23:44.700 --> 00:23:49.000
I experienced a lot of that and a lot of my well

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:51.880
all of my important relationships were with women

00:23:52.269 --> 00:23:58.730
have been until this one with women um so i kind

00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:00.589
of didn't really examine it much much further

00:24:00.589 --> 00:24:02.470
than that i was like oh yeah okay so i guess

00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:04.230
i must be straight then and didn't really kind

00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:07.230
of unpick that in that way that i tend to do

00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:12.109
i think i grew up with some and experienced as

00:24:12.109 --> 00:24:15.309
an adult some fairly negative perceptions of

00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:18.890
the idea of being bisexual I think you touched

00:24:18.890 --> 00:24:20.930
on some of them. You know, that perception that

00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:24.009
bisexual people are indecisive. They are easy.

00:24:24.109 --> 00:24:27.609
It's just a phase. Kind of bisexual being synonymous

00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:30.710
with being a slut and unfaithful and all of that

00:24:30.710 --> 00:24:33.309
kind of really negative messaging. So even in

00:24:33.309 --> 00:24:35.349
those moments where it did pop up every now and

00:24:35.349 --> 00:24:36.849
again, I was like, no, that's not me. So that

00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:40.390
can't be true. Yeah. Like I said, most of my

00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:43.150
important relationships have been with women.

00:24:43.869 --> 00:24:46.329
As a horny younger person, did some experimenting

00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:48.910
with men and found them a bit annoying, to be

00:24:48.910 --> 00:24:54.170
honest. And after I came out as bisexual, found

00:24:54.170 --> 00:24:57.269
them equally annoying. Yeah, there's a reason

00:24:57.269 --> 00:24:58.950
I don't have much of a track record of dating

00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:02.630
men. No. Very pretty. Yeah, yeah. Lovely to look

00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:10.650
at, but quite annoying. Sorry to our, no doubt,

00:25:10.769 --> 00:25:13.289
lovely male listeners. It's just, I have not...

00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:15.700
successfully been able to find one with the emotional

00:25:15.700 --> 00:25:18.380
intelligence to sustain a relationship i'm sure

00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:20.599
any men listening to this are perfect but i've

00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:23.799
never met you yeah yeah i'm yeah i'm sure men

00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:27.920
are lovely um but yeah never really had the fear

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.119
that you described about talking to girls and

00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.420
women um that never really applied to men for

00:25:34.420 --> 00:25:38.079
me it's just a little bit frustrating because

00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.619
you know they just very just interested in the

00:25:41.619 --> 00:25:44.160
sex part of it and and you know kind of quite

00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.420
demanding in what they wanted yeah which i am

00:25:47.420 --> 00:25:50.619
sure almost all of our women listeners will relate

00:25:50.619 --> 00:25:54.759
to um so they weren't really worth the effort

00:25:54.759 --> 00:26:00.819
um which again meant i put myself back in my

00:26:00.819 --> 00:26:03.299
box kind of going i'll just be straight then

00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:07.720
yeah it's easier um And of course you had a really

00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:09.839
long relationship with one woman in particular

00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:11.220
because you were married. Yeah, I was married

00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:17.740
for years and years and years. So I had no reason

00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:21.039
to kind of unpack that. And then separated from

00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.500
my ex -wife. And then in pretty short order after

00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:28.640
that went into lockdown. So there was that opportunity

00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:31.460
to work out what I wanted from life and who I

00:26:31.460 --> 00:26:33.180
was, which I would have done anyway because I

00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.579
was separated and you have to do that when your

00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:41.480
life gets turned upside down. But COVID gave

00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.819
me the space to just kind of sit with that and

00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:47.339
work it out and did a lot of thinking back and

00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:51.150
going, well, what was that all about? Then, and

00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:53.690
right back to being a teenager and seeing boys

00:26:53.690 --> 00:26:54.970
in my school going, oh, there's something quite

00:26:54.970 --> 00:26:57.849
interesting about you. And not really feeling

00:26:57.849 --> 00:26:59.650
connected to my gender and all of that kind of

00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:03.529
stuff. And I think just came to a level of peace

00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:05.309
with it and kind of challenged myself a little

00:27:05.309 --> 00:27:09.650
bit on some of my own internal biphobia as well.

00:27:09.829 --> 00:27:12.029
How can you be bisexual? How can you be anything

00:27:12.029 --> 00:27:13.589
other than straight if all of your significant

00:27:13.589 --> 00:27:16.910
relationships have been with women? And you're

00:27:16.910 --> 00:27:19.230
like, well, that's just how that works. Sometimes

00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:24.470
I'm challenging myself on it and then sitting

00:27:24.470 --> 00:27:28.789
with those labels and seeing how they felt. Like,

00:27:28.809 --> 00:27:31.430
does that accurately describe how I feel about

00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:33.910
things and how I want to perceive myself and

00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:35.769
want to be perceived by other people? So for

00:27:35.769 --> 00:27:38.349
me, it was a much more gentle process than I

00:27:38.349 --> 00:27:40.710
think some people experience. It was like I had

00:27:40.710 --> 00:27:42.630
the... time and the space for the first time

00:27:42.630 --> 00:27:44.910
in my life probably to actually sit down and

00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:47.450
think about who i am and what i am and how i

00:27:47.450 --> 00:27:51.170
am and all of that so when i got to that conclusion

00:27:51.170 --> 00:27:55.789
it felt pretty comfortable i was like okay those

00:27:55.789 --> 00:27:57.829
are the words i'm going to describe myself as

00:27:57.829 --> 00:27:59.829
and i'm going to act accordingly because i'm

00:27:59.829 --> 00:28:02.170
41 years old the fuck is going to tell me to

00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:08.710
do anything different you know um i sometimes

00:28:08.710 --> 00:28:12.019
feel a little bit guilty because People share

00:28:12.019 --> 00:28:15.420
the process they went through to work out who

00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:17.920
they are and what they are. And then describe

00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:20.359
the process they went through of telling other

00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:23.900
people. And it sounds awful. Like yours sounds

00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:27.660
awful. The negative experiences that you had

00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:30.579
when you came out as a really young person. It

00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:33.700
sounds horrible. Horrible because it happened.

00:28:34.180 --> 00:28:36.200
Because that shouldn't be what happened. But

00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.059
also horrible because of the effect it probably

00:28:38.059 --> 00:28:42.910
had on you. Yeah. and the way that teenagers

00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:45.789
will internalise those negative messages and

00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.049
then feel really bad about themselves as a result

00:28:48.049 --> 00:28:51.049
of that. Doing it at 41, I was like, I don't

00:28:51.049 --> 00:28:54.609
give a fuck. If you don't like it, piss off,

00:28:54.789 --> 00:28:58.670
sort of thing. I had reached the point in my

00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:01.670
life where the opinions of other people don't

00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:03.470
really matter. Whereas if I'd done that as a

00:29:03.470 --> 00:29:05.329
teenager, it would have been a really different

00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:08.579
experience. Yeah. I get that, but that's nothing

00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:11.799
to feel guilty about. Coming out feeling easy

00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:14.420
is something that everyone should have. Yeah,

00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:16.180
yeah. That should be the norm and that should

00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:18.539
be the default, whether that is through people

00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:20.880
reacting better to it or people having the confidence

00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:23.220
not to care what others think, or ideally both.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.119
That's what every queer person should get to

00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:29.019
experience, so you shouldn't feel bad that you

00:29:29.019 --> 00:29:31.900
got that. It's just shit that not everyone does,

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.440
and hopefully we're moving more into a time where

00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.420
everyone will have that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I

00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:41.539
think that's fair. Yeah, I just feel the weight

00:29:41.539 --> 00:29:43.900
of privilege sometimes. Yeah. Because I look

00:29:43.900 --> 00:29:47.099
the way that I do. You know, to all the world,

00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.400
I am a white, well -educated, middle -class,

00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.539
middle -aged man. Unless you know me. You know?

00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:56.559
And then some of those things are still true.

00:29:56.900 --> 00:29:59.059
And even though I am bisexual and non -binary,

00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.220
some of those things are still true. Yeah. So

00:30:01.220 --> 00:30:03.259
there is a degree of privilege that I carry with

00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:07.400
me. This risks being a huge diversion, as will

00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:09.079
shock our audience to know that that's going

00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:13.180
to happen. But I think that's always the first

00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:15.039
response you have to examining your own privileges,

00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:16.920
to feel bad about it. But the point of privilege

00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.910
is what everyone should have. yeah yeah it's

00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:21.690
it's the level that we should all get to be on

00:30:21.690 --> 00:30:24.049
so you're not a bad person for having it and

00:30:24.049 --> 00:30:26.630
i've read some really interesting stuff by by

00:30:26.630 --> 00:30:28.430
black writers particularly talking about how

00:30:28.430 --> 00:30:31.150
white guilt is unproductive yeah sitting at home

00:30:31.150 --> 00:30:32.890
in your house going oh god i feel so bad that

00:30:32.890 --> 00:30:34.490
i'm white i feel so bad about having my white

00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:36.539
privilege it's like That doesn't help anybody.

00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:38.279
What helps people is getting off your ass and

00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.500
saying, everyone should have this. Look at these

00:30:40.500 --> 00:30:42.160
things that I have in my life. Everyone should

00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.940
have this. And sort of confronting it while you

00:30:43.940 --> 00:30:46.460
see others lacking. I think it's a really natural

00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:48.819
first response to have is to feel bad when you

00:30:48.819 --> 00:30:50.599
recognise that you have been handed something

00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:52.259
that other people don't get the opportunity to

00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.039
have. Yeah. But you don't need to. And sometimes

00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:56.839
it can even be a barrier to you doing more good.

00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.019
So try not to be too mean to yourself. no i get

00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:02.000
that i totally understand that and i think it's

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.579
it yeah it's a really weird thing to to feel

00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:07.880
bad about but my coming out experience was was

00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.700
pretty chill yeah how did people react mix i

00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:12.319
know you didn't give a fuck which is great but

00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:17.119
how was it anyway um quick i think it's the first

00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:21.940
thing um that it was um so i had that period

00:31:21.940 --> 00:31:23.759
where i was kind of sitting with it and going

00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:25.859
how do i feel about this how do those labels

00:31:25.859 --> 00:31:28.619
feel does that feel comfortable authentic All

00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:31.400
of that sort of thing. And then when I reached

00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:34.839
the point that they did, I think I came out to

00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:36.660
everybody that was important to me in a day.

00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:40.279
Yeah. I just did it. Did you text people or ring

00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:45.220
them, Mick? Called them. Rang them. Well, called

00:31:45.220 --> 00:31:50.380
my family. To my mum and my dad, who are divorced.

00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:55.819
And my siblings. My siblings except one because

00:31:55.819 --> 00:31:59.799
I've never had a phone number for him. Yeah.

00:31:59.900 --> 00:32:02.480
I've only very, very recently obtained the ability

00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:07.980
to contact my youngest brother directly for no

00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:10.279
other reason that would just like that as a family.

00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:15.180
Yeah. So I spoke to my mum and my dad, my sister

00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:17.880
and my eldest but still younger brother on the

00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.670
phone. And then mum passed on the message to

00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:22.970
my youngest brother. I think I probably told

00:32:22.970 --> 00:32:25.829
friends by text, to be fair. Did that as a mass

00:32:25.829 --> 00:32:30.230
thing. Yeah. Sent an email at work, as you do.

00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:35.569
And I think broadly speaking, pretty positive.

00:32:36.250 --> 00:32:39.529
Nobody was offended, which is nice. Nobody was

00:32:39.529 --> 00:32:45.559
upset, which is nice. I don't think anybody cared

00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:47.680
about the sexuality. I think I'm going to assume

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.759
we covered this in the gender episode, but it

00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:52.279
was a good while ago. I think people had more

00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:54.819
questions about the gender because I came out

00:32:54.819 --> 00:32:57.579
as non -binary and bisexual at the same time.

00:32:57.680 --> 00:32:59.740
Yeah. So I think, logically, people can get their

00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:02.259
head around bisexual much more easily. That's

00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:04.559
a much more familiar term to a wider range of

00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.420
people. But some people struggled a little bit

00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:11.339
to get their head around non -binary. Yeah. Which

00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:13.359
was a little bit frustrating, but kind of understandable.

00:33:14.509 --> 00:33:17.210
I suppose. But yeah, I can imagine that's where

00:33:17.210 --> 00:33:19.329
most of the questions were and most of the sort

00:33:19.329 --> 00:33:20.809
of educating people had to be done because like

00:33:20.809 --> 00:33:22.809
you say, people know what bisexual means. There

00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:24.609
are still those misconceptions that go around

00:33:24.609 --> 00:33:27.390
about it, but people do at least understand what

00:33:27.390 --> 00:33:32.589
the term is. Yeah, yeah. I think the probably

00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:35.549
the most difficult conversation about being bisexual

00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:38.289
was with my ex -wife. Yeah. When I told her I

00:33:38.289 --> 00:33:40.890
was bisexual, she asked whether or not that was

00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:44.640
a reason why we'd split up. Yeah. Which I can

00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.539
understand, because if it was quite recent and

00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:49.299
then you've come out, you would make that connection,

00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.720
even with the best understanding of bisexuality

00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:53.819
and queer identities in general, you would have

00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:56.200
that thing of, so were they missing out with

00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:59.400
me? Yeah, yeah. I think that's possibly where

00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:03.759
it came from for her. But I was like, no, because

00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.980
I'm bisexual and therefore you would still be

00:34:06.980 --> 00:34:08.739
within the group of people that I would be sexually

00:34:08.739 --> 00:34:11.659
attracted to. That's not what precipitated this,

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.679
you know? Yeah. So I think from a sexuality perspective,

00:34:15.900 --> 00:34:18.280
I think that was probably the trickiest conversation

00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:20.380
to have. But it wasn't a negative one. Yeah.

00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:22.599
I think it was probably negative from her perspective

00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:24.619
to begin with, because she was worrying about

00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:28.340
what that meant. But we managed to navigate that

00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:31.179
pretty easily. Yeah. From my perspective, navigated

00:34:31.179 --> 00:34:32.619
it pretty easily. It didn't feel like it was

00:34:32.619 --> 00:34:35.199
a massive issue. Most of my family are a pretty

00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.559
progressive bunch, generally speaking. So didn't

00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:41.980
really get any negative consequences. Yeah. People

00:34:41.980 --> 00:34:43.519
at work aren't stupid enough to say anything

00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.320
negative out loud in response to an email. So,

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.380
you know, I would have caused several problems

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:51.579
in their life if they'd said anything. People

00:34:51.579 --> 00:34:53.559
I worked with were probably actually fine with

00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:55.000
it. But if they weren't, they're probably not

00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.679
stupid enough to say it. Yeah, you know that

00:34:57.679 --> 00:34:59.559
that's not a good idea in your workplace. The

00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.219
anti -discrimination laws that now exist. Yeah,

00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:04.019
they'd be like, well, I sent this email saying

00:35:04.019 --> 00:35:07.119
this and then you said this. Let's go and have

00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.050
a chat with HR. Definitely. Yeah, my coming out

00:35:12.050 --> 00:35:14.750
to family wasn't as bad as I expected it to be.

00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:16.110
I sort of skipped over that when I was talking

00:35:16.110 --> 00:35:17.889
about mine, like coming out of school was rough

00:35:17.889 --> 00:35:19.949
and I didn't come out to anyone in my family

00:35:19.949 --> 00:35:23.530
for about a year after that. Because although,

00:35:23.670 --> 00:35:26.349
as I said, my upbringing wasn't as negative as

00:35:26.349 --> 00:35:28.469
you would have expected around what I was told

00:35:28.469 --> 00:35:32.349
about LGBT people, it still was not exactly positive.

00:35:32.949 --> 00:35:35.739
Yeah. My perception of my parents' view when

00:35:35.739 --> 00:35:37.440
I was a kid was that they saw being gay as like

00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.800
a mental illness or a failure of parenting. Right.

00:35:40.219 --> 00:35:42.599
So there was that worry that if I tell them that

00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.030
I'm bi... they're gonna take it real personal

00:35:45.030 --> 00:35:49.889
yeah um and they were still very strongly christian

00:35:49.889 --> 00:35:52.210
like evangelical leaning christian although they'd

00:35:52.210 --> 00:35:53.750
softened a bit by the time i was in my teens

00:35:53.750 --> 00:35:56.690
and definitely didn't see queer relationships

00:35:56.690 --> 00:35:58.889
as being on the same level of validity as straight

00:35:58.889 --> 00:36:02.070
relationships um so i thought it might be a really

00:36:02.070 --> 00:36:03.929
strongly negative reaction and actually when

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:06.050
i eventually did tell my parents it was kind

00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:09.989
of okay i think basically like my dad just was

00:36:09.989 --> 00:36:13.099
unfazed um but my mom I think just didn't believe

00:36:13.099 --> 00:36:15.199
me and thought it was a phase. And was like,

00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:16.780
well, fine, you can say that if you want, but

00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:20.739
whatever. And then that sort of invalidation

00:36:20.739 --> 00:36:22.420
persisted. So like there was a period of time

00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:24.340
where me and my ex -wife were together, but before

00:36:24.340 --> 00:36:26.539
my ex -wife came out as trans. So at the time

00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:29.500
I appeared to have a husband and we had a polyamorous

00:36:29.500 --> 00:36:31.340
relationship. And I started, this is where it

00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:33.280
gets confusing, started dating someone who at

00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.440
the time identified as a woman, but later ended

00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:37.340
up coming out as trans masc. We're all just swapping.

00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:40.739
But as things stood at the time, I had a husband

00:36:40.739 --> 00:36:43.199
and a girlfriend. Yeah. And my mum struggled

00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.739
with the polyamory thing anyway, but really couldn't

00:36:46.739 --> 00:36:48.239
get her head around the idea that this was a

00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:49.800
romantic relationship and kept being like your

00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:51.800
friend. I was like, no, no, we are dating. This

00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:53.920
is a relationship. Yeah. And she just couldn't

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.940
quite get it. So there was a lot more resistance

00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:59.039
and ignorance rather than outright aggression.

00:36:59.099 --> 00:37:00.900
I think if I'd come out as a lesbian, it might

00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:03.690
have been rougher. Yeah. Because of being bisexual

00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:05.530
and because of those stereotypes people have

00:37:05.530 --> 00:37:08.409
about bisexuality as just being a phase, I don't

00:37:08.409 --> 00:37:10.010
think anyone took it seriously enough to have

00:37:10.010 --> 00:37:11.929
a problem with it, which is kind of a blessing.

00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:15.630
Yeah, that's fair. And I think similarly, I was

00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:17.309
at the age where people aren't going to perceive

00:37:17.309 --> 00:37:20.369
that as a phase. Yeah. Like I said, I think they

00:37:20.369 --> 00:37:24.329
never said this, but I can imagine a lot of the

00:37:24.329 --> 00:37:26.010
people who knew me as a much younger person,

00:37:26.130 --> 00:37:29.429
like my pals, were probably like, finally. Took

00:37:29.429 --> 00:37:33.739
you a while to work that out, didn't it? But

00:37:33.739 --> 00:37:35.579
like saying you're bisexual at 41, you're not

00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:36.900
going to get that kind of, oh, it's a phase,

00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:38.340
you'll grow out of it kind of thing because I'm

00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:41.079
done growing. Yeah. You know, this is who I am.

00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.559
But my parents, my dad is a very chill man of

00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:49.599
few words. And he was supportive of it. Well,

00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:51.920
yeah, if that's what you want to be, then do

00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:53.980
it. I think my mum struggled with the non -binary

00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:59.119
bit more than the bisexual bit. Yeah. But I kind

00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:00.760
of knew it was going to be okay because I can

00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:03.139
remember when I was a younger person trying to

00:38:03.139 --> 00:38:04.559
kind of go into that period of your life where

00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:05.739
you're working out what you want to be when you

00:38:05.739 --> 00:38:09.739
grow up. And my mum essentially said, you can

00:38:09.739 --> 00:38:13.059
do anything with your life. You can have sex

00:38:13.059 --> 00:38:14.699
with whoever you want. You can cover yourself

00:38:14.699 --> 00:38:17.619
in tattoos. You can do any kind of job that you

00:38:17.619 --> 00:38:20.300
want. You can live your life exactly how you

00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:23.559
want to live. But no child of mine is joining

00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:28.699
the army. Like that was literally the only limit

00:38:28.699 --> 00:38:32.500
that she placed on any of our lives was entering

00:38:32.500 --> 00:38:35.119
the armed forces. Yeah. Like no child of mine

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:37.199
is doing that. I don't care what else you do

00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:41.159
with your life. So I figured it would be okay.

00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.940
Yeah. And it was. If you'd been worried, you

00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:46.139
could have warmed her up by saying that you were

00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:48.320
joining the army. And then after she was done

00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.340
freaking out, be like, oh no, I'm not. It's fine.

00:38:50.420 --> 00:38:56.010
I'm just bisexual and non -binary. Bye. Though

00:38:56.010 --> 00:38:57.590
I feel like she might have had some questions

00:38:57.590 --> 00:39:00.590
about you starting a military career at 41 that

00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:02.690
might have overridden the... Yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:39:02.829 --> 00:39:07.710
yeah. Really, yes, really. You think you're fit

00:39:07.710 --> 00:39:11.730
enough to do that? Yeah. You're back on your

00:39:11.730 --> 00:39:16.929
knees going to tolerate that? That's fair. Thank

00:39:16.929 --> 00:39:21.889
you for that. So, yeah, world's longest coming

00:39:21.889 --> 00:39:25.500
out, probably. Yep. Very much a very definition

00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:29.739
of slow burn. Well, now that we have established

00:39:29.739 --> 00:39:34.639
the law around our sexuality, so I identify as

00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.119
bisexual and you are pansexual. Yes, thanks.

00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:41.840
In my head, they're related but different terms.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.059
I feel like there's sometimes a little bit of

00:39:44.059 --> 00:39:46.920
confusion around the difference between them.

00:39:47.179 --> 00:39:51.199
Yep. Do you want to demystify it for us? Yes,

00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.619
Mix. So the definition of bisexual is attraction

00:39:54.619 --> 00:39:57.880
to two or more genders. And pansexual is attraction

00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.400
to all genders or attraction regardless of gender.

00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.880
So obviously a huge amount of crossover. And

00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:04.380
one way of sort of looking at it is bisexual

00:40:04.380 --> 00:40:07.400
is the umbrella term that pansexual fits underneath.

00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:09.860
Polysexual would be another one people sometimes

00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:11.639
use, which is attraction to multiple genders,

00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.179
but not necessarily all. So that would slot under

00:40:14.179 --> 00:40:16.900
there as well. And you could probably put like

00:40:16.900 --> 00:40:18.980
homoflexible and heteroflexible. under there

00:40:18.980 --> 00:40:20.980
where people identify as mostly gay or mostly

00:40:20.980 --> 00:40:24.480
straight but with the odd exception yeah um so

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.960
bisexuality can be seen as like an umbrella term

00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.639
the reason i used bisexual for a long period

00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:32.340
of time and then switched to using pansexual

00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.780
is while i identified as bisexual i felt like

00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:37.980
gender played a role in my attraction um when

00:40:37.980 --> 00:40:39.599
i first came out as bi i didn't know about non

00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.519
-binary people but even once i did i sort of

00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:45.530
had my attraction to women my attraction to men

00:40:45.530 --> 00:40:48.269
my attraction to non -binary people tended to

00:40:48.269 --> 00:40:49.849
feel a little bit different and i would go through

00:40:49.849 --> 00:40:51.610
periods of time of having a preference of being

00:40:51.610 --> 00:40:53.269
more interested in women or being more interested

00:40:53.269 --> 00:40:56.559
in men yeah And when I reached the point of coming

00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:00.320
out as pansexual was when I had started to feel

00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.039
that less and less and less to the point where

00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:04.340
gender really became irrelevant to how I experienced

00:41:04.340 --> 00:41:07.079
attraction. And I was starting to recognize that

00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.780
it's a lot more about compatibility for me and

00:41:09.780 --> 00:41:12.920
it is about personality and it is about things

00:41:12.920 --> 00:41:16.760
that aren't physical in nature at all. So gender

00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.179
really didn't play a part of that. And I don't

00:41:19.179 --> 00:41:20.820
know why that had changed. I don't know if it's

00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:22.400
just because I didn't know myself very well when

00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:24.539
I was younger and was maybe seeing men and women

00:41:24.539 --> 00:41:26.639
as being opposites to each other, which is something

00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:28.579
that I've sort of unlearned over time as I learn

00:41:28.579 --> 00:41:31.400
more about gender. Yeah. So that was sort of

00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:33.860
informing my attraction or whether it is just

00:41:33.860 --> 00:41:36.619
that something shifted within me or a little

00:41:36.619 --> 00:41:39.019
bit of both. But that's why I moved between the

00:41:39.019 --> 00:41:42.190
two. I think a lot of the time picking what label

00:41:42.190 --> 00:41:44.550
fits you is to an extent it's going on vibes.

00:41:44.769 --> 00:41:46.769
So you could look at dictionary definitions all

00:41:46.769 --> 00:41:48.889
day, but you're ultimately going to pick what

00:41:48.889 --> 00:41:50.789
feels like the closest fit. And there will be

00:41:50.789 --> 00:41:53.230
people who identify as pansexual who still feel

00:41:53.230 --> 00:41:54.869
like gender does play a little bit more of a

00:41:54.869 --> 00:41:56.889
role to them than it does to me. Yeah. And there

00:41:56.889 --> 00:41:59.250
will be people whose sexuality feels exactly

00:41:59.250 --> 00:42:01.469
the same as mine does who prefer the term bisexual.

00:42:02.589 --> 00:42:04.289
Either because that's what they've always used.

00:42:04.389 --> 00:42:06.489
You know, it's the older term. Bisexual has been

00:42:06.489 --> 00:42:08.170
around longer than pansexual. So some people

00:42:08.170 --> 00:42:10.849
just stick with what they know. Or because it

00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:13.170
is that all -encompassing term that can cover

00:42:13.170 --> 00:42:16.110
any variety of preference or lack of preference

00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:17.690
within that. I think there's a bit of a misconception

00:42:17.690 --> 00:42:20.650
that bisexual excludes non -binary people. The

00:42:20.650 --> 00:42:22.769
idea that bi... People go, well, by means too,

00:42:22.869 --> 00:42:25.210
so it's just men and women. Firstly, it's two

00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:27.110
or more, but also you could be attracted to,

00:42:27.170 --> 00:42:28.969
even if you are just attracted to two genders,

00:42:28.969 --> 00:42:30.530
it doesn't have to be men and women. It could

00:42:30.530 --> 00:42:32.769
be women and non -binary people, for example,

00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:36.250
or women and people within a certain kind of

00:42:36.250 --> 00:42:39.510
portion of the non -binary spectrum. Sexuality

00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:41.929
is too complicated for these terms to be completely

00:42:41.929 --> 00:42:44.989
like perfect fits ever, I think. And it's always

00:42:44.989 --> 00:42:48.010
about finding what's the easiest way of communicating

00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:53.099
for you. Yeah. What about you, Mix? Why was bisexual

00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:55.139
the one that you've kind of settled on rather

00:42:55.139 --> 00:42:57.219
than pan or something else? Partly because I'm

00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.480
old and pansexual feels like a newfangled word

00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:06.059
that the kids use. And I am not one of the kids

00:43:06.059 --> 00:43:09.559
anymore. I am down with the kids, but I am not

00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:15.000
one myself. But also I paid close attention to

00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:18.360
the definition and I think bisexual works best

00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.420
for me because it is, like you say, it is attraction

00:43:20.420 --> 00:43:25.920
to two or more genders. And for me, I am, like

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.880
there's a meme that I saw years and years ago

00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:31.340
that I strongly identify with. I am attracted

00:43:31.340 --> 00:43:34.000
to all of the women, all of the trans people,

00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:36.900
all of the non -binary people and three specific

00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:41.300
men. So it's, and it's a really cliche and I

00:43:41.300 --> 00:43:45.300
am. joking for comedic effect on a podcast but

00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:48.539
that is kind of how it feels for me is gender

00:43:48.539 --> 00:43:54.019
doesn't matter but men are on thin ice and i

00:43:54.019 --> 00:43:56.739
just don't experience the same level of attraction

00:43:56.739 --> 00:44:00.579
to cis men than i do to other gender identities

00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:04.340
yeah so i think it would be i feel like it would

00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:07.880
be disingenuous of me to use pansexual because

00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:10.820
to an extent it does matter yeah to me it's an

00:44:10.820 --> 00:44:13.579
element of it for you yeah it's yeah you know

00:44:13.579 --> 00:44:17.980
um i don't mean it when i say all of the women

00:44:17.980 --> 00:44:19.900
all of the non -binary people all of the trans

00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:21.880
people because some of those people are dickheads

00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:23.519
and i wouldn't be attracted to them based on

00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:25.880
their personality and their vibe and whether

00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:27.960
we're compatible and all of that kind of thing

00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.980
and the same would apply to men as well i'm not

00:44:30.980 --> 00:44:33.659
saying never men no men but kind of the other

00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:36.360
way around I'm more predisposed to the other

00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.199
gender identities than I am to men. So to take

00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:41.760
gender out of the equation in the way that pansexual

00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.079
does doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, that makes

00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:46.699
sense. And it's something I debate sometimes

00:44:46.699 --> 00:44:49.960
because I joke about it, but I have not really

00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:54.559
dated a man since, God, since I was 19, really.

00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:57.260
I've dated people who identified as men while

00:44:57.260 --> 00:44:59.159
I was with them. but then later came out as something

00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:02.139
else. Yeah, yeah. So your attraction is to pre

00:45:02.139 --> 00:45:05.800
-transition people. Or both. Yeah, my attraction

00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.400
is generally to trans people. Yeah, yeah. But

00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:12.079
yeah, I think just because I haven't dated men

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:14.079
in a while doesn't mean I'm any less attracted

00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.300
to them. Like someone being a man doesn't make

00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:18.800
me any less attracted to them. It's just the

00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:21.139
things that I look for for a relationship, for

00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:24.099
a romantic connection, for a power exchange connection,

00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:27.539
since I figured out my kink identity, is... really

00:45:27.539 --> 00:45:29.760
good quality communication really high levels

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.760
of emotional intelligence people who are really

00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.139
in touch with their feelings and can express

00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:36.239
them that's so important to me people who regardless

00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.420
of how we might negotiate for me to be treated

00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:40.940
respect me as an equal from from the start and

00:45:40.940 --> 00:45:43.960
see me as a equally important person in a relationship

00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.860
whose needs are equally needing to be met and

00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:49.679
under patriarchy with how they're raised currently

00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:52.159
men are less likely to be able to hit those standards

00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.780
for me yeah so i've had a lot of casual sex with

00:45:54.780 --> 00:45:59.059
men and and Very much enjoyed it. But usually

00:45:59.059 --> 00:46:02.659
something comes up relatively early within me

00:46:02.659 --> 00:46:04.579
starting to connect with a man that makes me

00:46:04.579 --> 00:46:06.380
realize we're not compatible to have a relationship.

00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:09.579
Yeah, that's fair. Men up their game a bit. That

00:46:09.579 --> 00:46:12.340
could change. Yeah. But I am now very much off

00:46:12.340 --> 00:46:14.559
the market. So don't improve yourselves for me.

00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:19.539
Yeah. Do it for yourself. Yes. Get better for

00:46:19.539 --> 00:46:21.539
yourself. And for the poor straight women who

00:46:21.539 --> 00:46:27.340
have no options. Yeah. i think my attraction

00:46:27.340 --> 00:46:30.260
to men is pretty shallow yeah i'm gonna be honest

00:46:30.260 --> 00:46:32.139
i'm not mad about that and i'm not ashamed about

00:46:32.139 --> 00:46:34.739
that like quite happily look at a really hot

00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:37.780
man as much as i could look at a hot woman or

00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:40.400
a hot non -binary person but i am probably significantly

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.400
less likely to want to get into i'm obviously

00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.940
not now because i am in a relationship with you

00:46:46.940 --> 00:46:49.300
but i would be significantly less likely to want

00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:52.119
to get into a relationship with a cis man i think

00:46:52.969 --> 00:46:54.989
um a little bit of eye candy a little bit of

00:46:54.989 --> 00:46:58.309
casual sex maybe but that's about it yeah you

00:46:58.309 --> 00:47:01.230
know um and that can be an element as well like

00:47:01.230 --> 00:47:03.869
for some people attraction is split so some people

00:47:03.869 --> 00:47:07.230
can be bisexual but either hetero or homoromantic

00:47:07.230 --> 00:47:09.329
they only really like relationships with one

00:47:09.329 --> 00:47:11.969
gender in particular i think sometimes that can

00:47:11.969 --> 00:47:14.769
come from a internalized homophobia place of

00:47:14.769 --> 00:47:17.570
being like but these relationships are less real

00:47:17.570 --> 00:47:19.250
they're less valid they're less serious and that's

00:47:19.250 --> 00:47:21.269
worth examining but sometimes people just are

00:47:21.269 --> 00:47:25.110
wired that way um same as how like asexuals can

00:47:25.110 --> 00:47:26.869
still have a romantic orientation where there's

00:47:26.869 --> 00:47:28.269
people they like to date but don't experience

00:47:28.269 --> 00:47:30.730
sexual attraction and there's aromantic people

00:47:30.730 --> 00:47:32.949
who might experience sexual attraction to one

00:47:32.949 --> 00:47:35.449
or two or more genders but don't want to date

00:47:35.449 --> 00:47:38.010
them like attraction is complicated not just

00:47:38.010 --> 00:47:39.710
in terms of figuring out where you sit on the

00:47:39.710 --> 00:47:43.989
spectrum but also figuring out where relationships

00:47:43.989 --> 00:47:47.739
fit within that yeah um i wouldn't say that Like

00:47:47.739 --> 00:47:49.260
for me personally, it's not a split attraction

00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:51.179
thing. I can be sort of romantically attracted

00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:54.159
to a man. I just am not able to make the relationship

00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:57.860
work generally because of how they've been raised

00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:00.780
to be a lot of the time. It's not that the potential

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:02.900
isn't there. It's that the reality hasn't ever

00:48:02.900 --> 00:48:06.400
quite lived up to the potential. Yeah, that's

00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:08.719
true. Yeah, it's entirely possible I'm being

00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.820
really unfair to men because I've never particularly

00:48:10.820 --> 00:48:13.699
tried to pursue a romantic relationship with

00:48:13.699 --> 00:48:16.679
a man. So I might be being really unfair to them.

00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:19.300
But it's another kind of facet to it. And it's

00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:20.940
something that I think has bounced around in

00:48:20.940 --> 00:48:24.340
my head since we did the episode with Tom and

00:48:24.340 --> 00:48:29.840
Kay. And then they came on here. They have a

00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.119
really good bit that they do with guests that

00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:37.000
they refer to as Alphabet Mafia. So they go through

00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.320
all of the different variations of that. It's

00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:41.719
not just I am a queer person or I am a bisexual

00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:45.960
person. It is I am. blah romantic blah sexual

00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:49.820
blah amorous blah you know all of the different

00:48:49.820 --> 00:48:51.940
groups of labels that you can have which is a

00:48:51.940 --> 00:48:54.880
nice touch that they have i think partly because

00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.460
they have so many of them themselves they use

00:48:57.460 --> 00:49:00.420
a lot of words to describe themselves but i haven't

00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:04.719
really thought about what my blah romantic would

00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.239
be and whether that would be bi -romantic as

00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.309
well Because it is, you know, on the assumption

00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:12.369
it's the same basic definition, two or more genders.

00:49:12.469 --> 00:49:14.730
Then I kind of assume it would be the same, but

00:49:14.730 --> 00:49:17.429
I haven't really kind of examined that. Yeah.

00:49:17.710 --> 00:49:20.329
Because I haven't needed to, because I am monoromantic

00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:25.250
with you. Yes. Which is the thing with all of

00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:27.570
these labels is they are only as useful as you

00:49:27.570 --> 00:49:29.670
need them to be. I think probably from what you

00:49:29.670 --> 00:49:31.610
said, a big part of why you didn't come out as

00:49:31.610 --> 00:49:33.829
bisexual earlier was because you were in a monogamous

00:49:33.829 --> 00:49:36.500
relationship with a woman for... what like 15

00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:40.019
to 20 years yeah um so although for some people

00:49:40.019 --> 00:49:41.559
it would still be really important to figure

00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:43.880
out and label and come out as their sexuality

00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:46.059
some people in that situation would probably

00:49:46.059 --> 00:49:47.659
feel like it's not particularly relevant and

00:49:47.659 --> 00:49:49.139
they don't need to know because they're with

00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:51.599
who they're with yeah and both of those are completely

00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:55.079
valid and now that we are in a mono romantic

00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:57.739
relationship though yeah a little bit of play

00:49:57.739 --> 00:49:59.739
outside the relationship sometimes like yeah

00:49:59.739 --> 00:50:02.739
figuring out exactly who I could potentially

00:50:02.739 --> 00:50:04.900
have relationships with isn't a top priority.

00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:07.900
I still like to know who I am, but I don't necessarily

00:50:07.900 --> 00:50:10.099
always need to know exactly how to define it

00:50:10.099 --> 00:50:12.659
because the point of those definitions is to

00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:14.340
draw some boundaries around this is the kind

00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:16.039
of relationships and the kind of sex that I would

00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.320
and wouldn't have. And within the context of

00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.400
where I'm at in my life now with you, I don't

00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:23.969
always need all the answers to that. No, and

00:50:23.969 --> 00:50:26.050
I think I'm the same. Like I say, we kind of,

00:50:26.050 --> 00:50:28.989
in defining our relationship, we both really

00:50:28.989 --> 00:50:31.909
quite strongly agreed that monoromantic was important.

00:50:32.210 --> 00:50:34.949
Yeah. But the hypothetical range of romantic

00:50:34.949 --> 00:50:38.429
relationships that I might have aren't all that

00:50:38.429 --> 00:50:40.489
relevant at the moment. Yeah. Because I am in

00:50:40.489 --> 00:50:42.429
a relationship with a non -binary person. Yeah.

00:50:43.429 --> 00:50:51.429
So I'm enbyromantic currently. Yeah. um but it's

00:50:51.429 --> 00:50:54.170
an interesting thought experiment i suppose yeah

00:50:54.170 --> 00:50:56.110
they go well actually where do i sit on that

00:50:56.110 --> 00:50:58.349
on that spectrum of things i might say probably

00:50:58.349 --> 00:51:01.489
by a romantic as well um i think what you said

00:51:01.489 --> 00:51:04.849
about maybe for some people some internal unconscious

00:51:04.849 --> 00:51:07.590
homophobia going on in how they define their

00:51:07.590 --> 00:51:11.099
sexuality in relation to to men I think is a

00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:12.800
little bit challenging to hear and I know you

00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:14.340
didn't mean it in a challenging way you weren't

00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:16.239
saying well you're just a homophobe aren't you

00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.099
really that's what that's what's going on there

00:51:18.099 --> 00:51:20.179
but it is a challenging thing to think about

00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:24.039
and go well what is it what's going on there

00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:27.360
have I got such a low opinion of men that I just

00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:29.719
wouldn't go there with them and actually do I

00:51:29.719 --> 00:51:32.239
need to examine what that's about to work it

00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:34.099
out I think it's always good to ask yourself

00:51:34.099 --> 00:51:36.219
the question but also not to be too harsh on

00:51:36.219 --> 00:51:38.579
yourself like I think you know I touched on I

00:51:38.579 --> 00:51:42.960
used to And still do find women harder to flirt

00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:45.119
with, harder to approach a relationship with,

00:51:45.139 --> 00:51:47.420
like a little bit scary and intimidating. And

00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:49.800
some of that is because women... tend to have

00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:51.639
higher standards and get approached a lot more

00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:54.559
yeah there is a reason for it but i think some

00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:56.780
of it when i was younger was definitely about

00:51:56.780 --> 00:52:00.340
feeling like it's hard to navigate that internalized

00:52:00.340 --> 00:52:02.699
homophobia in yourself and in other people of

00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:05.179
feeling like if i really want a serious committed

00:52:05.179 --> 00:52:06.940
relationship with someone that's for the long

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:09.320
term yeah am i going to be able to have that

00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:11.219
with a woman is that a thing that two women can

00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:13.920
have and i feel like that is definitely something

00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:15.519
that i've moved past and my last relationship

00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:18.329
was with a woman and also i'm no longer one so

00:52:18.329 --> 00:52:20.710
it's yeah it's different the vibe is different

00:52:20.710 --> 00:52:23.170
but i think probably part of why i was a little

00:52:23.170 --> 00:52:25.650
bit slower to get started on meeting women and

00:52:25.650 --> 00:52:27.949
why the easiest way i found to meet women early

00:52:27.949 --> 00:52:30.210
on was getting a boyfriend to do it for me probably

00:52:30.210 --> 00:52:32.510
was coming a little bit from some internalized

00:52:32.510 --> 00:52:35.469
homophobia and that sort of compulsory heterosexuality

00:52:35.469 --> 00:52:37.269
that is particularly pushed onto queer women

00:52:37.269 --> 00:52:39.889
yeah of like okay but you gotta give men a try

00:52:39.889 --> 00:52:43.889
yeah yeah so it's It's complicated, like identity

00:52:43.889 --> 00:52:46.329
and how we've been raised and what society tells

00:52:46.329 --> 00:52:47.769
you to be are always going to be so tangled up

00:52:47.769 --> 00:52:49.769
together that I don't think there's ever going

00:52:49.769 --> 00:52:52.969
to be a solid answer. It's just having some awareness

00:52:52.969 --> 00:52:55.510
of it and thinking about that. But as I said,

00:52:55.530 --> 00:52:57.030
not particularly relevant to either of us now

00:52:57.030 --> 00:52:58.309
because neither of us are trying to date anybody.

00:52:58.989 --> 00:53:00.929
No, that is true. I did just have a slightly

00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:02.909
amusing thought, though, about why you may have

00:53:02.909 --> 00:53:05.250
found it harder to approach and flirt with women.

00:53:05.769 --> 00:53:08.670
I think partly connected to the fact that I am

00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:12.199
just about to make up a new word. Okay. you are

00:53:12.199 --> 00:53:15.500
domosexual. Yes. In that you are sexually attracted

00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:18.780
to dominant people. And some of the scariest

00:53:18.780 --> 00:53:21.320
dominant people I have ever met are women. Yes.

00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:24.579
Oh, God, yeah. You know, I do not have a submissive

00:53:24.579 --> 00:53:27.760
bone in my body, but I have met women dominants

00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:29.760
who I would quite happily let them step on me.

00:53:29.980 --> 00:53:33.800
Yeah. So there might be a little bit of that

00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:36.099
going on. Yeah. Because the kind of women I would

00:53:36.099 --> 00:53:38.099
be going for would be really scary. Yeah. Which

00:53:38.099 --> 00:53:41.659
is a weird thing to think about. It's like, what

00:53:41.659 --> 00:53:44.400
is that about? Is it about, are they just more

00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:46.579
comfortable in their dominance? What's that about?

00:53:46.739 --> 00:53:48.239
Are they just, you know, kind of borrowing the

00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:50.480
language of alpha male and the manosphere, naturally

00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.280
dominant, natural leaders, all of that bullshit

00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:56.420
that men tell themselves. Well, that some men

00:53:56.420 --> 00:54:01.659
sell to other men. Yeah. Is that just how dominant

00:54:01.659 --> 00:54:05.840
women are? That it just exudes from them and

00:54:05.840 --> 00:54:10.320
makes them a little bit scary? Maybe. Would you

00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:13.860
like to hear another spicy hot take from S? Always.

00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.179
Yes, Max. Yeah. You mentioned a couple of labels

00:54:16.179 --> 00:54:18.940
earlier on homoflexible and heteroflexible. Yeah.

00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:24.420
And I have some thoughts about those. All words

00:54:24.420 --> 00:54:26.500
are made up. Literally all words are made up.

00:54:26.619 --> 00:54:29.719
But I feel like homoflexible and heteroflexible

00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:33.400
are a way of erasing bisexual and pansexual identities.

00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:36.599
I think there is a little bit of biphobia going

00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:40.559
on with that. Because what... If you're heteroflexible,

00:54:40.579 --> 00:54:44.159
my conception of heteroflexible, just as an example,

00:54:44.219 --> 00:54:46.699
is that you are primarily sexually attracted

00:54:46.699 --> 00:54:50.619
to people of the opposite gender. Yeah. But you

00:54:50.619 --> 00:54:53.780
are sometimes attracted to people of other genders,

00:54:53.860 --> 00:54:56.780
including your own. yeah how is that any different

00:54:56.780 --> 00:54:59.679
from being bisexual is my spicy hot take i would

00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:01.420
definitely say it fits under the bisexual umbrella

00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:03.880
i think it is worth people examining their motivations

00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.260
for using those labels but i don't think it's

00:55:06.260 --> 00:55:08.760
necessarily always biphobia i think it can be

00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:12.000
um i think there are people who particularly

00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:13.920
people who use the term heteroflexible they want

00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:16.000
to kind of cling on to the privilege that comes

00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:18.239
with being straight while still having the freedom

00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:20.800
to explore, which is coming from a biphobic place

00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.300
to an extent. And I think there are particularly

00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:25.800
some men who are labelling themselves as heteroflexible

00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:29.119
on dating apps and when talking to women because

00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:31.519
they think it makes them seem more evolved in

00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:33.940
some way. Right. Where they may not actually

00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:36.400
be acting on that or experiencing those attractions

00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.800
in any way. They just want to seem more progressive,

00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:41.139
which I'm very suspicious of. Or they want to

00:55:41.139 --> 00:55:45.539
find a threesome. Yes. And it's a MMF threesome,

00:55:45.579 --> 00:55:50.000
but the penises do not touch. Yes. Yeah. But

00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.199
I think there's something for me about how language

00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:56.179
is supposed to communicate. It's supposed to

00:55:56.179 --> 00:55:59.099
express ideas. Labels like bisexual, pansexual,

00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:01.780
homoflexible, heteroflexible, they are not prescriptive.

00:56:01.780 --> 00:56:05.320
They are descriptive. And if you are someone

00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:09.639
who is... A man who is attracted to women 99

00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.159
% of the time has never had or wanted a relationship

00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:14.800
with a man, but every now and again masturbates

00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:16.780
to gay porn or has had a couple of crushes on

00:56:16.780 --> 00:56:19.079
men. Or if I met the right man, maybe I would.

00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.460
Does bisexual actually communicate anything helpful

00:56:22.460 --> 00:56:25.159
about your sexuality to people? It might actually

00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:26.500
cause confusion where you're suddenly going to

00:56:26.500 --> 00:56:28.039
get hit on by loads of guys you have no interest

00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:31.199
in. Where saying that you're heteroflexible maybe

00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:33.179
communicates that a little bit better. Where

00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:34.519
you're saying, I'm basically, I'm on the market

00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.820
for women. I'm not ruling anything out. But also

00:56:37.820 --> 00:56:39.800
if you want someone who's completely 100 % straight

00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:41.219
and is never going to look at a guy, I'm not

00:56:41.219 --> 00:56:43.360
for you. Yeah. Then it can be quite a helpful

00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.559
way of communicating. And my experience is generally

00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:48.840
people using the homoflexible label are using

00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.500
it more in that way. Right. Where it is an honest

00:56:51.500 --> 00:56:53.579
sort of description of how they're experiencing

00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:56.440
their sexuality, where they would feel like bisexual

00:56:56.440 --> 00:56:58.900
was sort of false advertising. Yeah. Completely

00:56:58.900 --> 00:57:01.519
gay, completely lesbian, completely homosexual.

00:57:02.190 --> 00:57:04.829
doesn't quite fit um so i think there can be

00:57:04.829 --> 00:57:07.469
some value in it for that and obviously people

00:57:07.469 --> 00:57:09.329
who who do have a very strong preference one

00:57:09.329 --> 00:57:11.449
way or the other can use bisexual if they want

00:57:11.449 --> 00:57:13.429
to but as i said sometimes it can lead to a bit

00:57:13.429 --> 00:57:17.070
of confusion so i i can sympathize there um but

00:57:17.070 --> 00:57:19.329
i do tend to be a little bit suspicious of heteroflexible

00:57:19.329 --> 00:57:21.969
men because most of the ones that i've met they

00:57:21.969 --> 00:57:24.150
are as i said either using it to try to pick

00:57:24.150 --> 00:57:26.070
up women by seeming like they're more evolved

00:57:26.070 --> 00:57:28.610
in some way which is crazy because There's nothing

00:57:28.610 --> 00:57:30.550
unevolved about being straight. That's just your

00:57:30.550 --> 00:57:33.869
sexuality. Or sometimes they're using it in a

00:57:33.869 --> 00:57:35.590
transphobic way to be like, oh, I'm attracted

00:57:35.590 --> 00:57:37.670
to women, even if they've got a penis. It's like,

00:57:37.750 --> 00:57:39.849
OK, so you're straight. Those are women. Yeah,

00:57:39.889 --> 00:57:43.329
that makes that makes sense. I will continue

00:57:43.329 --> 00:57:46.090
to be a little bit suspicious. But yeah, I can

00:57:46.090 --> 00:57:50.250
see that perspective. And I think I do. I feel

00:57:50.250 --> 00:57:53.699
a little bit like kind of. Because I am a younger

00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:56.119
Generation X. I am at the tail end of Generation

00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:59.840
X. On the cusp. I'm on the cusp. There was a

00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:02.340
brief period where we all tried to convince ourselves

00:58:02.340 --> 00:58:04.900
that we were a different micro -generation. It's

00:58:04.900 --> 00:58:07.679
like, no, we are different to the Millennials.

00:58:08.900 --> 00:58:13.039
We give fewer fucks than the Millennials, generally.

00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:18.420
But I think there is a little bit of older Generation

00:58:18.420 --> 00:58:25.750
X in me as well, about... um the language evolving

00:58:25.750 --> 00:58:29.090
in the way that it does but in queer spaces leading

00:58:29.090 --> 00:58:32.989
to more and more specific labels and really kind

00:58:32.989 --> 00:58:36.050
of very very niche labels as well and i think

00:58:36.050 --> 00:58:38.409
there is peril in that and you sometimes see

00:58:38.409 --> 00:58:41.409
and the internet is not the yardstick by which

00:58:41.409 --> 00:58:44.130
we should be measuring discourse on anything

00:58:44.130 --> 00:58:49.809
but the more labels we create and the more specific

00:58:49.809 --> 00:58:52.789
our labels get the more divided we become, I

00:58:52.789 --> 00:58:55.989
think is the danger. I get where you're coming

00:58:55.989 --> 00:58:59.349
from, but I am. I am a millennial. So yeah, I

00:58:59.349 --> 00:59:01.269
have a different vibe. I think having those sort

00:59:01.269 --> 00:59:03.329
of umbrella terms for quick communication is

00:59:03.329 --> 00:59:05.269
really helpful. A lot of people who are using

00:59:05.269 --> 00:59:08.150
the really specific micro labels are more looking

00:59:08.150 --> 00:59:10.630
for a feeling of, oh my God, there is something

00:59:10.630 --> 00:59:12.510
that applies to me, something really specific

00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:13.869
that applies to me, because that feels really

00:59:13.869 --> 00:59:15.929
good when you find that. And often we'll have

00:59:15.929 --> 00:59:17.889
other labels that they use as their general sort

00:59:17.889 --> 00:59:21.030
of descriptors alongside it. because yeah like

00:59:21.030 --> 00:59:22.590
there's always that moment where someone you're

00:59:22.590 --> 00:59:24.849
talking to someone about their identity and they

00:59:24.849 --> 00:59:26.110
use a word and you're like i'm sorry what does

00:59:26.110 --> 00:59:27.949
that mean but it's always a little bit awkward

00:59:27.949 --> 00:59:29.369
where it's like actually the point of these terms

00:59:29.369 --> 00:59:32.210
is so that i know what you mean but also it's

00:59:32.210 --> 00:59:34.969
quite cool to find descriptions for experiences

00:59:34.969 --> 00:59:37.050
that you thought were a unique experience yeah

00:59:37.050 --> 00:59:38.750
and then there's someone on tumblr has come up

00:59:38.750 --> 00:59:40.909
for a word for it i'm like oh my god same yeah

00:59:40.909 --> 00:59:43.389
that's really nice so i think i think there's

00:59:43.389 --> 00:59:45.789
value to all of it as long as we don't allow

00:59:45.789 --> 00:59:47.929
it to make us divided and still recognize ourselves

00:59:47.929 --> 00:59:49.650
as all being part of this interconnected queer

00:59:49.650 --> 00:59:52.010
community and having commonality with people

00:59:52.010 --> 00:59:53.849
who use a different micro label to you but are

00:59:53.849 --> 00:59:56.030
still part of the same sort of general broader

00:59:56.030 --> 00:59:58.869
range of experiences yeah there's balance there

00:59:58.869 --> 01:00:03.150
yeah yeah i get that like i find finding a word

01:00:03.150 --> 01:00:05.369
that fits can be really can be really positive

01:00:05.369 --> 01:00:08.210
can be really affirming for people and i wouldn't

01:00:08.210 --> 01:00:11.170
want to deny people that i just worry about the

01:00:11.170 --> 01:00:14.360
balkanization of the queer community As we break

01:00:14.360 --> 01:00:16.900
ourselves down into ever increasingly small nation

01:00:16.900 --> 01:00:20.139
states, then actually we lose something really,

01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:22.500
really valuable. Yeah. And it's just as important

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:24.599
to remember that my words are different to your

01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:27.059
words, but we're all part of the same family.

01:00:27.219 --> 01:00:29.960
Yeah. You know? This is a spicy take, though,

01:00:29.980 --> 01:00:32.199
coming from the generation that brought us metrosexual.

01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:35.900
I never got on board with metrosexual. Never

01:00:35.900 --> 01:00:38.460
got on board. I saw through that from day fucking

01:00:38.460 --> 01:00:40.820
one. Metrosexual means you had a fucking shower.

01:00:43.309 --> 01:00:45.710
piss off with that bullshit yeah it is alarming

01:00:45.710 --> 01:00:47.289
that there was a time where we thought we needed

01:00:47.289 --> 01:00:49.590
a special word for men who knew how to wash their

01:00:49.590 --> 01:00:53.429
own ass yeah and that was a hundred percent driven

01:00:53.429 --> 01:00:55.650
by the media yeah and i think that's the difference

01:00:55.650 --> 01:00:58.510
is even niche queer media are not necessarily

01:00:58.510 --> 01:01:00.789
coming up with all of these new labels some of

01:01:00.789 --> 01:01:03.510
them will be i suppose but a lot of the new words

01:01:03.510 --> 01:01:05.210
that come along at least they are coming from

01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:07.789
the community yeah i can't remember where metrosexual

01:01:07.789 --> 01:01:10.409
came from but it was some fucking magazine yeah

01:01:10.409 --> 01:01:14.590
um And millennials, we had ladettes, which was

01:01:14.590 --> 01:01:18.110
just as toxic. Yes, we did. Imagine women watching

01:01:18.110 --> 01:01:22.230
football and drinking beer. What? What? How could

01:01:22.230 --> 01:01:25.750
that? It was very much like women who like to

01:01:25.750 --> 01:01:30.230
do things that only men should be doing. Absolute

01:01:30.230 --> 01:01:32.250
misogyny. And loads of people who didn't think

01:01:32.250 --> 01:01:34.230
of themselves as misogynists got very on board

01:01:34.230 --> 01:01:37.099
with it. Lots of media panics around it, like,

01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:39.099
oh my God, who's going to raise the children

01:01:39.099 --> 01:01:41.099
and cook the dinner if the women are at the pub?

01:01:41.619 --> 01:01:49.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nuts. But we are missing

01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:54.440
the most important part of the debate about pansexual

01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:58.980
versus bisexual. Oh, yes. Which is the flag.

01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:03.690
Pansexual flag is cooler. Lies. I am absolutely

01:02:03.690 --> 01:02:06.570
correct. The pan flag is the best one. Nope.

01:02:07.409 --> 01:02:09.469
Nope. It's not even the best out of the two.

01:02:10.369 --> 01:02:13.530
It totally is. It's so pretty. Like even before

01:02:13.530 --> 01:02:15.989
I knew it was the pansexual flag, possibly before

01:02:15.989 --> 01:02:17.730
it was the pansexual flag, I'm not sure when

01:02:17.730 --> 01:02:19.929
this was come up with, like yellow, blue and

01:02:19.929 --> 01:02:21.849
pink just look so good together. I have done

01:02:21.849 --> 01:02:24.150
that as nail colours. I've done that with outfits,

01:02:24.230 --> 01:02:27.230
like bright, bright colours that just slightly

01:02:27.230 --> 01:02:31.079
clash a little bit. So good. See, whereas I like

01:02:31.079 --> 01:02:34.360
the bisexual flag for pretty much the opposite

01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.659
reasons. The colours kind of blend really nicely

01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:40.039
together. Yeah. You know, the other colours have

01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:42.280
a really gorgeous sunset, you know, kind of blues

01:02:42.280 --> 01:02:44.679
and pinks and purples and stuff. Yeah. It's like,

01:02:44.699 --> 01:02:46.179
you know, when you look at the sky, you go, oh

01:02:46.179 --> 01:02:49.860
my God, the sky is on fire tonight. I think I

01:02:49.860 --> 01:02:52.820
would like the bi flag more if the blue and the

01:02:52.820 --> 01:02:54.659
purple were slightly brighter ones. They're a

01:02:54.659 --> 01:02:57.039
little bit muted. I like really bright colours.

01:02:57.679 --> 01:02:59.699
I did really enjoy it. The first Pride I went

01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:02.039
to, I dressed up as the bisexual flag. So I had

01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:04.320
a blue skirt, a big, poofy, bright blue skirt.

01:03:04.420 --> 01:03:06.679
I had a bright pink sort of frilly top and then

01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:10.340
a thick sort of like sash belt around my waist

01:03:10.340 --> 01:03:12.940
that was purple. And it looked really cool. But

01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:14.579
it would have looked even cooler in the pan colours.

01:03:14.739 --> 01:03:15.940
I mean, that would have looked, yeah, the pan,

01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:17.639
that would have looked great. You would have

01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:19.619
looked amazing. Yeah. But it's still not as good

01:03:19.619 --> 01:03:22.440
as a flag. Because the blue in the pansexual

01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.360
flag is a brighter shade of blue, and then it's

01:03:24.360 --> 01:03:25.739
got the bright yellow in there, and it's like,

01:03:25.780 --> 01:03:27.940
this is good. Yeah. This is what I like. You're

01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:29.940
just attracted to the bright colours. I do like

01:03:29.940 --> 01:03:33.219
bright colours, yeah. That's fair. But then we

01:03:33.219 --> 01:03:36.139
had pride flag Christmas trees, didn't we? We

01:03:36.139 --> 01:03:38.239
did, yes. We went for the bi flag. Well, I had

01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:41.579
the baubles for the bi flag and the non -binary

01:03:41.579 --> 01:03:44.730
flag. Yes. Which was very cool. Yeah. So our

01:03:44.730 --> 01:03:46.610
first Christmas together, we did the non -binary

01:03:46.610 --> 01:03:48.889
tree. So we used the white tree with the yellow,

01:03:48.949 --> 01:03:51.429
black and purple baubles. And I really like the

01:03:51.429 --> 01:03:52.989
non -binary flag. A lot of people think that

01:03:52.989 --> 01:03:54.349
one's ugly. They're like, these colours don't

01:03:54.349 --> 01:03:55.869
go together. What the fuck is this? I love it.

01:03:56.409 --> 01:03:59.130
That one's probably actually my favourite flag.

01:03:59.309 --> 01:04:01.349
So I've got the non -binary flag and the pansexual

01:04:01.349 --> 01:04:03.030
flag that apply to me. And both of them are the

01:04:03.030 --> 01:04:06.070
best. Yeah, true. I do really like the non -binary

01:04:06.070 --> 01:04:09.050
flag as well. It is very cool. Partly because

01:04:09.050 --> 01:04:13.059
it's got black in it. Like my soul. So as you've

01:04:13.059 --> 01:04:15.679
already touched on, you are often perceived as

01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:19.460
a 47 -year -old man. Yes. And I am generally

01:04:19.460 --> 01:04:23.420
perceived as a plastic Barbie doll. Yes. But

01:04:23.420 --> 01:04:26.420
we are both non -binary. Mm -hmm. Are we actually

01:04:26.420 --> 01:04:33.059
quite gamics? Yes. Yes. Yes, we are. And I really

01:04:33.059 --> 01:04:35.199
like that, especially since we started doing

01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:40.099
the bimbofication. I really like that to the

01:04:40.099 --> 01:04:42.690
outside world. We kind of pass as a straight

01:04:42.690 --> 01:04:45.889
couple. Like, on first glance, kind of pass as

01:04:45.889 --> 01:04:49.409
a straight couple. But we're not. Yeah. Secret

01:04:49.409 --> 01:04:54.210
gays. Secret, secret, yeah, secret agent queers.

01:04:54.909 --> 01:04:59.210
You know? Not in a closeted, hidden way. In a

01:04:59.210 --> 01:05:03.489
infiltrating the enemy way. Like, I really enjoy

01:05:03.489 --> 01:05:05.929
that. No, same. I think, as you say, it's not

01:05:05.929 --> 01:05:07.889
about being closeted or actually trying to pass

01:05:07.889 --> 01:05:10.280
as straight. It's like... we have a surprise

01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:12.699
that we will release at the appropriate moment.

01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:16.360
Yeah. And it's fun. It is really fun. I think

01:05:16.360 --> 01:05:18.780
it was also fun that we did definitely look gayer

01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:20.960
when we first got together because then you got

01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:24.380
to have the experience of being in a gay presenting

01:05:24.380 --> 01:05:27.400
relationship before I started to look like this.

01:05:27.619 --> 01:05:30.260
Yeah. I was just thinking we probably looked

01:05:30.260 --> 01:05:32.119
to the outside world, to the casual observer,

01:05:32.119 --> 01:05:34.300
probably looked more like a queer couple when

01:05:34.300 --> 01:05:37.119
we got together. Yeah. primarily because of the

01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:39.159
way that you were presenting. I still look like

01:05:39.159 --> 01:05:43.059
a, well, I was 45 at the time. 44, right at the

01:05:43.059 --> 01:05:48.159
start. 44, yeah. But I still look like a man.

01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:51.860
I am man -shaped. I would say you will be perceived

01:05:51.860 --> 01:05:54.119
as a man to the world in general, but you do

01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:57.480
not look like a man. You look like Mix, who is

01:05:57.480 --> 01:06:00.300
a non -binary person. you do not look like anyone

01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:02.199
else that i've ever seen you look exactly like

01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:04.800
you and you are non -binary yeah but you present

01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:07.900
in a masculine way yes that is very affirming

01:06:07.900 --> 01:06:11.639
of you to say um but yeah i especially enjoy

01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:13.340
when people get it wrong like not in a malicious

01:06:13.340 --> 01:06:16.880
way not in a mean way just in a in a they're

01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:19.800
not paying very much attention kind of way so

01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:21.699
we are recording this a couple of days after

01:06:21.699 --> 01:06:25.440
my birthday where you very generously um whisked

01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:28.090
me away to london we had a stay in a really fancy

01:06:28.090 --> 01:06:30.730
hotel in london we went to see hamilton which

01:06:30.730 --> 01:06:36.349
was amazing um but every time a bill was presented

01:06:36.349 --> 01:06:40.210
it was presented to me yeah and like even when

01:06:40.210 --> 01:06:42.710
we checked in to the hotel i kind of loitered

01:06:42.710 --> 01:06:45.690
about like away from the desk and they seemed

01:06:45.690 --> 01:06:48.690
really surprised to be dealing with you yeah

01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:51.010
who is clearly the woman in the relationship

01:06:51.010 --> 01:06:58.050
um uh on account of your boobs so it's that double

01:06:58.050 --> 01:06:59.750
assumption isn't it the assumption that i'm a

01:06:59.750 --> 01:07:02.429
woman and the assumption that therefore i shouldn't

01:07:02.429 --> 01:07:04.750
be paying for anything yeah like in the restaurant

01:07:04.750 --> 01:07:07.309
where i asked for the bill i asked for the bill

01:07:07.309 --> 01:07:08.949
and was sitting there holding my wallet and they

01:07:08.949 --> 01:07:10.949
put the bill down in front of you yeah yeah it's

01:07:10.949 --> 01:07:14.190
like what are you doing yeah and it was really

01:07:14.190 --> 01:07:16.530
subtle it was it was obvious because we were

01:07:16.530 --> 01:07:19.570
kind of probably subconsciously looking for it

01:07:19.570 --> 01:07:21.530
but it was really subtle because the bill was

01:07:21.530 --> 01:07:24.380
facing me yeah And it's like, I don't care what

01:07:24.380 --> 01:07:29.219
that says. None of my business. Because you were

01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:31.159
treating me. So it's stuff like that that I enjoy,

01:07:31.260 --> 01:07:35.920
you know, kind of in a slightly snarky way. The

01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:39.159
one I always enjoy is if I spot something I'm

01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:40.780
concerned about with your health and I send you

01:07:40.780 --> 01:07:44.429
to the doctor. Yes. The doctor has not only assigned

01:07:44.429 --> 01:07:46.110
me female, even though you've only ever said

01:07:46.110 --> 01:07:48.309
partner, but has also decided we must be married

01:07:48.309 --> 01:07:50.550
because they're always like, oh, will this stop

01:07:50.550 --> 01:07:52.889
your wife worrying? Yeah, yeah. It's because

01:07:52.889 --> 01:07:55.510
I'm doing the typical wife thing. Yeah. They're

01:07:55.510 --> 01:07:57.869
making that assumption because only a wife would

01:07:57.869 --> 01:08:01.150
be sending her husband to the doctor. Yeah. Yeah,

01:08:01.230 --> 01:08:04.550
yeah. There's an evidence base for that. Like,

01:08:04.570 --> 01:08:06.469
that's why married men live longer, because their

01:08:06.469 --> 01:08:09.300
wife sends them to the doctor. But yeah, they

01:08:09.300 --> 01:08:11.340
just can't imagine that happening in any other

01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:14.400
type of relationship. No, no. And you're right.

01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:16.680
I always use the word partner because that is

01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.859
the word to describe you. Yeah. And I even said

01:08:19.859 --> 01:08:21.619
the last time I went to the doctor about something,

01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:23.600
I said, so can I go home and tell my partner

01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:28.920
that it's fine? And then the nurse said, I'm

01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:30.140
going to send you home with some antibiotics

01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:36.420
so she'll be fine. Yeah, OK. and it's not the

01:08:36.420 --> 01:08:38.439
kind of argument i want to have in a doctor's

01:08:38.439 --> 01:08:40.600
surgery but it is a little bit frustrating i

01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:43.020
suppose it's a little bit mildly annoying when

01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:47.640
it happens but it is mostly amusing yeah because

01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:49.840
it is that it is that firstly the assumption

01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:52.520
about our genders but as as i said with the restaurant

01:08:52.520 --> 01:08:54.300
bill and stuff it's that assumption of what the

01:08:54.300 --> 01:08:57.140
role of a woman is to essentially become the

01:08:57.140 --> 01:08:59.819
mother of a useless man yeah and that's not what

01:08:59.819 --> 01:09:02.079
it is i just i have more health -related anxiety

01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:04.390
than you yeah and i see what's going on with

01:09:04.390 --> 01:09:05.710
your health from an external perspective and

01:09:05.710 --> 01:09:07.569
you do the same thing to me you sort of bullied

01:09:07.569 --> 01:09:09.670
me into getting medical attention for my back

01:09:09.670 --> 01:09:12.029
and yeah yeah anytime i've been poorly you're

01:09:12.029 --> 01:09:13.350
like if this goes on more than another couple

01:09:13.350 --> 01:09:14.869
of days i'm taking you to the doctor i'm like

01:09:14.869 --> 01:09:17.890
oh so it's it's a mutual thing when you're in

01:09:17.890 --> 01:09:19.590
a relationship you take care of each other but

01:09:19.590 --> 01:09:21.770
there is that assumption that a woman's place

01:09:21.770 --> 01:09:24.909
in a relationship is to to fuss over and care

01:09:24.909 --> 01:09:27.810
for a man and also any children they might have

01:09:27.810 --> 01:09:30.529
and also the house and also she has to be on

01:09:30.529 --> 01:09:32.029
the top of her game in her career now because

01:09:32.029 --> 01:09:33.789
we've accepted that women can do that but not

01:09:33.789 --> 01:09:35.810
taking the pressure off anywhere else it's yeah

01:09:35.810 --> 01:09:38.470
yeah it's fucked up but it's fun to to snark

01:09:38.470 --> 01:09:43.949
about yes a little bit yeah um so yes we are

01:09:43.949 --> 01:09:46.989
definitely in a queer relationship which is great

01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:50.000
Yeah. And that seems to be all I'm capable of.

01:09:50.060 --> 01:09:51.880
It's funny, like I had such a slow start in my

01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:54.000
teens of being like, oh, I'm bi and I really

01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:55.460
want to date girls, but I don't know how to do

01:09:55.460 --> 01:09:56.680
that. So I'm just going to date loads of guys.

01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:02.460
Since 19, like I have not done a straight relationship.

01:10:04.220 --> 01:10:07.039
Like, I thought I did a couple of times. So my

01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:09.039
ex -wife, when we got together, I was identifying

01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:10.899
as a woman, they were identifying as a man, but

01:10:10.899 --> 01:10:13.579
that did not last very long. Essentially swapped,

01:10:13.779 --> 01:10:15.619
both non -binary, but at the other end of the

01:10:15.619 --> 01:10:18.479
gender spectrum from each other. The girlfriend,

01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:20.020
as I thought at the time, that I had for about

01:10:20.020 --> 01:10:22.500
a year during that relationship, later transitioned

01:10:22.500 --> 01:10:26.600
and is transmasc. Obviously, I'm in a relationship

01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:29.399
with you. yeah it's non -binary my last relationship

01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:32.100
was with a woman my relationship with that was

01:10:32.100 --> 01:10:36.279
with someone non -binary um like it's just that's

01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:39.199
just what seems to happen i've had hookups with

01:10:39.199 --> 01:10:41.840
cis men and cis women but my actual relationships

01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:44.100
have all been with trans people and there's a

01:10:44.100 --> 01:10:46.899
label some trans people use of t for t so right

01:10:46.899 --> 01:10:49.979
trans for trans i was gonna ask about that yeah

01:10:49.979 --> 01:10:52.600
do we count as t for t yes mix because we're

01:10:52.600 --> 01:10:54.810
both non -binary which is right trans okay so

01:10:54.810 --> 01:10:58.050
yes we do um but some people it's not just they

01:10:58.050 --> 01:10:59.649
label their relationships as that they'll like

01:10:59.649 --> 01:11:01.810
that's part of their identity as they exclusively

01:11:01.810 --> 01:11:04.710
date trans people right and i've never made that

01:11:04.710 --> 01:11:06.890
decision at any point and still haven't you know

01:11:06.890 --> 01:11:08.829
obviously i expect to be with you forever so

01:11:08.829 --> 01:11:11.670
yeah t for t forever but if i was single again

01:11:11.670 --> 01:11:13.590
i wouldn't be like ruling out the possibility

01:11:13.590 --> 01:11:17.029
of dating someone who wasn't trans but my history

01:11:17.029 --> 01:11:20.430
suggests i probably wouldn't And I think for

01:11:20.430 --> 01:11:22.649
me, it's just so much easier to explain being

01:11:22.649 --> 01:11:25.869
non -binary to someone who has explored their

01:11:25.869 --> 01:11:28.470
own gender. So if I was to date someone who wasn't

01:11:28.470 --> 01:11:30.189
trans, it would probably be someone who'd kind

01:11:30.189 --> 01:11:31.630
of gone through a period of questioning their

01:11:31.630 --> 01:11:33.430
gender and really seriously thought about it.

01:11:33.710 --> 01:11:36.010
Because those conversations are just much easier

01:11:36.010 --> 01:11:38.970
and I don't have to sort of justify myself or

01:11:38.970 --> 01:11:41.170
feel like I'm having to prove my gender to anybody.

01:11:41.289 --> 01:11:44.569
I can just kind of chill and exist. Yeah, I think

01:11:44.569 --> 01:11:47.260
that's fair. I think, yeah, I think there's something

01:11:47.260 --> 01:11:49.399
about even if you haven't gone through that really

01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:52.159
deep examination, you at least have an understanding

01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:55.760
of who you are and how that fits. Yeah. In that

01:11:55.760 --> 01:11:58.720
broader range of thinking, I suppose. Yeah. We

01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:00.460
are both operating on the assumption that this

01:12:00.460 --> 01:12:02.380
is the last relationship either of us get into.

01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:05.899
Yeah. But like, I guess for me, it wouldn't be

01:12:05.899 --> 01:12:08.319
necessary that people have questioned their gender,

01:12:08.420 --> 01:12:10.659
but they have at least examined the concept of

01:12:10.659 --> 01:12:12.899
gender. Yeah. And have that baseline level of

01:12:12.899 --> 01:12:15.260
understanding. Yeah. I suppose would be important.

01:12:15.609 --> 01:12:18.750
to me yeah um i'm really finding it particularly

01:12:18.750 --> 01:12:20.869
good being i mean i'm finding it great being

01:12:20.869 --> 01:12:22.350
in a relationship with you for lots of reasons

01:12:22.350 --> 01:12:24.289
but with you being non -binary those conversations

01:12:24.289 --> 01:12:28.050
have been much easier yeah than um so my ex hope

01:12:28.050 --> 01:12:30.729
is a trans woman and is very much binary all

01:12:30.729 --> 01:12:35.500
woman 100 identifies as a woman um so she has

01:12:35.500 --> 01:12:37.720
a really good understanding of figuring out that

01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:39.399
you're trans and that your gender isn't what

01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:40.840
you're assigned at birth and things like that

01:12:40.840 --> 01:12:43.779
and she in theory understands what non -binary

01:12:43.779 --> 01:12:45.579
is and is supportive of non -binary people and

01:12:45.579 --> 01:12:47.939
validating all of that stuff but there was still

01:12:47.939 --> 01:12:49.359
definitely times where i was talking about my

01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:50.899
feelings of gender where i could see she just

01:12:50.899 --> 01:12:53.930
didn't quite get it yeah or would try to be really

01:12:53.930 --> 01:12:56.770
affirming by putting me in a very masculine box

01:12:56.770 --> 01:12:58.750
sort of using lots and lots of really gendered

01:12:58.750 --> 01:13:00.930
male terms yeah like we'd always call me handsome

01:13:00.930 --> 01:13:02.390
not pretty and things like that and it's like

01:13:02.390 --> 01:13:03.970
i see what you're doing and i love the intention

01:13:03.970 --> 01:13:06.270
and it's really sweet yeah but i'm a bit more

01:13:06.270 --> 01:13:08.789
complicated than that yeah and with you and when

01:13:08.789 --> 01:13:10.890
i've been in relationships with non -binary people

01:13:10.890 --> 01:13:13.149
before that always feels a little bit easier

01:13:13.149 --> 01:13:15.529
yeah so i think i might actually be non -binary

01:13:15.529 --> 01:13:20.069
for non -binary As a preference, at least, if

01:13:20.069 --> 01:13:23.270
not a hard rule. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I think

01:13:23.270 --> 01:13:25.729
using the right words can be tricky sometimes.

01:13:26.109 --> 01:13:28.850
I can see why Hope did what she did. I can really

01:13:28.850 --> 01:13:31.289
see the intent behind what she was doing, trying

01:13:31.289 --> 01:13:33.430
to be kind of affirming of what was at that time

01:13:33.430 --> 01:13:37.109
your desire to present in a more mask way. Maybe

01:13:37.109 --> 01:13:41.140
overshot a little bit. And I was never mad about

01:13:41.140 --> 01:13:43.420
it. No. It's just it's easier when I don't have

01:13:43.420 --> 01:13:45.960
to do the 101 for it. No, but then it made me

01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:48.159
think about the words I used to use for you.

01:13:48.779 --> 01:13:52.680
So I call you baby boy. Yeah. As like a pet name.

01:13:54.619 --> 01:13:57.739
But I do use words like beautiful and gorgeous,

01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.140
which are in my head anyway, relatively gendered

01:14:01.140 --> 01:14:03.699
terms. I feel like gorgeous is quite neutral.

01:14:04.079 --> 01:14:06.439
I feel like that one is a neutral one, but beautiful

01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:08.180
and pretty tend to be seen as more feminine.

01:14:08.340 --> 01:14:10.539
Yeah. And I will use both of those words? Well,

01:14:10.579 --> 01:14:12.039
I suppose I will use all three of those words,

01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:15.140
which might be the point, I suppose. Yeah, I

01:14:15.140 --> 01:14:18.020
think you, it seems, from my perspective at least,

01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:20.039
pretty effortlessly and naturally get a range

01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:22.300
of language that all feels correct. And when

01:14:22.300 --> 01:14:25.279
you're unsure, you check as well. Yeah. So you've

01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:27.220
asked about, like, how does this feel? Does this

01:14:27.220 --> 01:14:28.640
feel all right? Is this something where you're

01:14:28.640 --> 01:14:30.199
happy with a gendered word or do you need me

01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:32.600
to use something completely neutral? Yeah, yeah.

01:14:33.100 --> 01:14:36.670
Okay, good. i definitely use some typically gendered

01:14:36.670 --> 01:14:40.050
stereotypically gendered words yeah to describe

01:14:40.050 --> 01:14:43.470
you but good okay i'm pleased that that all feels

01:14:43.470 --> 01:14:45.970
okay and i feel like you would have said yeah

01:14:45.970 --> 01:14:48.109
if if it didn't i feel like we would have had

01:14:48.109 --> 01:14:50.329
this conversation not on microphone yeah and

01:14:50.329 --> 01:14:51.850
if anything hope had said would have been like

01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:53.899
wrong we would have had that conversation. It

01:14:53.899 --> 01:14:55.600
was never like, like I said, I was never mad

01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:58.119
about it. It was just like, I could see the cogs

01:14:58.119 --> 01:14:59.979
turning a little bit where she was working really

01:14:59.979 --> 01:15:02.840
hard to be actively affirming and sometimes overshooting

01:15:02.840 --> 01:15:05.819
a bit. Where with you, it doesn't ever, and now

01:15:05.819 --> 01:15:07.539
we've just talked about it, maybe you are overthinking

01:15:07.539 --> 01:15:12.939
it, but you certainly hide it better. Fair. I

01:15:12.939 --> 01:15:15.239
think there is another area where I am at risk

01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.640
of possibly overthinking is when I asked about

01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:21.590
T for T dating and whether we... counted because

01:15:21.590 --> 01:15:25.689
i sometimes worry that labeling i am non -binary

01:15:25.689 --> 01:15:28.149
i'm a non -binary person but i sometimes worry

01:15:28.149 --> 01:15:31.170
that kind of counting myself within the trans

01:15:31.170 --> 01:15:35.050
umbrella is somehow disrespectful of trans people

01:15:35.050 --> 01:15:38.609
which in my fairly simplistic head is an identity

01:15:38.609 --> 01:15:40.770
in its own right and doesn't need to be co -opted

01:15:40.770 --> 01:15:43.470
by people like me i think a lot of non -binary

01:15:43.470 --> 01:15:45.409
people struggle with that yeah so transgender

01:15:45.409 --> 01:15:49.210
means that you identify as a gender that is not

01:15:49.210 --> 01:15:51.159
the one you're assigned at birth yeah so non

01:15:51.159 --> 01:15:54.199
-binary by definition counts because no one was

01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:56.739
assigned non -binary at birth even intersex people

01:15:56.739 --> 01:15:59.859
they they still get put into a box so non -binary

01:15:59.859 --> 01:16:03.850
people are trans sort of on that basis um There

01:16:03.850 --> 01:16:06.550
is also the term transsexual, which has become

01:16:06.550 --> 01:16:09.010
less popular over time. Like a lot of trans people

01:16:09.010 --> 01:16:11.170
don't like it. Some people still really do. But

01:16:11.170 --> 01:16:13.729
transsexual specifically is about changing your

01:16:13.729 --> 01:16:15.829
sex. It's about going through medical transition.

01:16:16.609 --> 01:16:19.350
So people who would identify with the term transsexual,

01:16:19.470 --> 01:16:21.289
which no one has to use if they don't want to,

01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:23.130
but people who do are people generally who've

01:16:23.130 --> 01:16:24.949
had some kind of medical elements to their transition.

01:16:25.949 --> 01:16:28.350
So I could be classed as transsexual as well.

01:16:28.449 --> 01:16:30.010
It's not a term I use for myself, but because

01:16:30.010 --> 01:16:32.189
I have done medical stuff as part of my transition.

01:16:33.000 --> 01:16:35.619
would but trans is usually understood to be short

01:16:35.619 --> 01:16:38.340
for transgender which is much more varied and

01:16:38.340 --> 01:16:40.270
there will always be debate and discourse about

01:16:40.270 --> 01:16:42.029
who fits under the umbrella and who doesn't but

01:16:42.029 --> 01:16:44.750
non -binary people 100 % are allowed to if they

01:16:44.750 --> 01:16:48.130
want to yeah um and some non -binary people don't

01:16:48.130 --> 01:16:50.569
want to if they feel like their gender is very

01:16:50.569 --> 01:16:52.510
closely aligned to what they were assigned at

01:16:52.510 --> 01:16:54.470
birth and it's it's more of a minor variance

01:16:54.470 --> 01:16:57.569
they might not but a lot of it is like we talked

01:16:57.569 --> 01:16:59.569
about with internalized biphobia might be why

01:16:59.569 --> 01:17:01.470
someone might choose a label like heteroflexible

01:17:01.470 --> 01:17:04.090
internalized transphobia is often why non -binary

01:17:04.090 --> 01:17:05.590
people think they're not allowed to claim that

01:17:05.590 --> 01:17:07.729
term Because you would never say to someone else,

01:17:07.750 --> 01:17:09.229
you're not trans enough to call yourself trans.

01:17:10.050 --> 01:17:15.329
No. But you will say it to yourself. Yeah, that's

01:17:15.329 --> 01:17:16.989
a fair point. I think I was coming at it from

01:17:16.989 --> 01:17:19.770
more of an experiential position. Maybe thinking

01:17:19.770 --> 01:17:22.550
specifically about myself is the experience that

01:17:22.550 --> 01:17:25.810
the average trans man will have is very different

01:17:25.810 --> 01:17:28.949
to the experience that I have had and will have

01:17:28.949 --> 01:17:34.030
as a non -binary man -shaped person. Yeah. And

01:17:34.030 --> 01:17:36.850
so in my head, there is a risk of either that

01:17:36.850 --> 01:17:39.869
I am perceived to be trying to co -opt the experiences

01:17:39.869 --> 01:17:43.130
of trans men. And I'm using trans men as the

01:17:43.130 --> 01:17:47.069
example because I am man -shaped. It seems like

01:17:47.069 --> 01:17:49.310
a logical comparison, but it applies equally

01:17:49.310 --> 01:17:53.850
to trans women. So, yeah, it feels like it could

01:17:53.850 --> 01:17:55.869
be perceived that I am trying to co -opt that

01:17:55.869 --> 01:17:58.510
experience and go, well, I am oppressed in the

01:17:58.510 --> 01:18:02.020
same way. well i am simply not yeah i can kind

01:18:02.020 --> 01:18:03.939
of quite easily fly under the radar as a non

01:18:03.939 --> 01:18:06.039
-binary person if i so choose because no one's

01:18:06.039 --> 01:18:08.819
going to say anything yeah but invisibility is

01:18:08.819 --> 01:18:10.899
not a privilege it can sometimes be a protective

01:18:10.899 --> 01:18:12.659
factor but it's not a privilege it comes with

01:18:12.659 --> 01:18:15.500
its own pressures and the thing is like those

01:18:15.500 --> 01:18:17.439
different experiences will still happen even

01:18:17.439 --> 01:18:19.659
if you take non -binary people completely out

01:18:19.659 --> 01:18:22.359
the equation trans men and trans women don't

01:18:22.359 --> 01:18:24.140
experience oppression in the same ways there

01:18:24.140 --> 01:18:25.680
is some overlap but there are also some major

01:18:25.680 --> 01:18:28.220
differences between sort of generalized transphobia

01:18:28.220 --> 01:18:31.960
and specific trans misogyny. A trans person of

01:18:31.960 --> 01:18:33.819
colour is going to have very different experiences

01:18:33.819 --> 01:18:36.619
to a white trans person. A trans person living

01:18:36.619 --> 01:18:38.859
in some of the really high risk countries, like

01:18:38.859 --> 01:18:40.760
parts of South America, for example, in the United

01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:43.619
States, is experiencing transphobia and trans

01:18:43.619 --> 01:18:45.720
misogyny very, very differently to a trans person

01:18:45.720 --> 01:18:47.920
living in the UK, where our rate of transphobic

01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:50.590
violence is incredibly low. But on the flip side,

01:18:50.729 --> 01:18:53.310
a trans person living in most of the rest of

01:18:53.310 --> 01:18:55.310
Europe is probably having a better experience

01:18:55.310 --> 01:18:57.189
than trans people in the UK right now with what

01:18:57.189 --> 01:19:00.329
our government is doing. So even if you ignore

01:19:00.329 --> 01:19:02.750
non -binary people, you could take 100 different

01:19:02.750 --> 01:19:04.630
trans people from around the world and their

01:19:04.630 --> 01:19:08.010
experiences of oppression and intersectionality

01:19:08.010 --> 01:19:10.670
and the things that they do have access to and

01:19:10.670 --> 01:19:11.850
the things that they don't are going to vary

01:19:11.850 --> 01:19:15.930
wildly. So acknowledging that like our identity

01:19:15.930 --> 01:19:19.500
is not oppression based. you don't have to be

01:19:19.500 --> 01:19:22.800
this oppressed to join it's about who we are

01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:24.479
as people and the things that we have in common

01:19:24.479 --> 01:19:27.039
and like you said about not allowing the specifics

01:19:27.039 --> 01:19:30.060
of our labels to fragment us yeah and that we

01:19:30.060 --> 01:19:32.359
are having a shared experience but that yeah

01:19:32.359 --> 01:19:34.909
absolutely also recognizing the The privilege

01:19:34.909 --> 01:19:37.590
of if you are someone who doesn't need to access

01:19:37.590 --> 01:19:39.670
medical transition to feel comfortable in yourself,

01:19:39.810 --> 01:19:41.470
if you're not living in a country where your

01:19:41.470 --> 01:19:44.210
identity is criminalised or subject to really

01:19:44.210 --> 01:19:46.770
extreme levels of violence, if you are someone

01:19:46.770 --> 01:19:49.130
who generally isn't perceived as being trans

01:19:49.130 --> 01:19:52.329
in any way, like you are having advantages there,

01:19:52.369 --> 01:19:54.369
but that doesn't deprive you of your identity.

01:19:54.909 --> 01:19:57.369
True. And like you say, actually, I need to...

01:19:57.600 --> 01:19:59.539
shift my mindset a little bit and go yeah i am

01:19:59.539 --> 01:20:01.420
a non -binary person with quite a lot of privilege

01:20:01.420 --> 01:20:04.380
so let's do something with that yeah rather than

01:20:04.380 --> 01:20:07.060
reusing it as a reason to like hide away a little

01:20:07.060 --> 01:20:09.800
bit yeah yeah and i know i already said this

01:20:09.800 --> 01:20:11.819
but i think it bears repeating invisibility is

01:20:11.819 --> 01:20:14.119
not a privilege it can protect you it can be

01:20:14.119 --> 01:20:16.779
a shield but something i've experienced with

01:20:16.779 --> 01:20:19.300
identifying as bisexual and pansexual but being

01:20:19.300 --> 01:20:21.279
in sort of straight appearing relationships at

01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:24.140
times something that you experience as a non

01:20:24.140 --> 01:20:26.319
-binary person and i'm experiencing more as a

01:20:26.319 --> 01:20:27.859
non -binary person who's quite femme presenting

01:20:27.859 --> 01:20:31.539
now is that the constant sort of invalidation

01:20:31.539 --> 01:20:34.220
and erasure of your identity can be really quite

01:20:34.220 --> 01:20:37.880
damaging yeah um and i'm reaching the i'm in

01:20:37.880 --> 01:20:40.800
my gen x era as well of not giving a fuck yeah

01:20:40.800 --> 01:20:43.500
but something that i found when i presented really

01:20:43.500 --> 01:20:46.939
androgynously or more masculine is a lot of people

01:20:46.939 --> 01:20:49.100
would actively sort of validate me by throwing

01:20:49.100 --> 01:20:51.500
other non -binary people under the bus. It makes

01:20:51.500 --> 01:20:53.180
me like, oh, I always thought non -binary people

01:20:53.180 --> 01:20:55.020
were just attention seekers and making stuff

01:20:55.020 --> 01:20:58.199
up, but you obviously are. You're a non -binary

01:20:58.199 --> 01:21:00.739
person. I'm like, no, no, I'm just androgynous.

01:21:00.739 --> 01:21:03.159
That doesn't make me more valid. And no one says

01:21:03.159 --> 01:21:05.840
that to me anymore because I'm now the kind of

01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:07.479
non -binary person that people just roll their

01:21:07.479 --> 01:21:09.840
eyes at and go, oh, that's just a woman who wants

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:13.819
to be different. And that is harmful in its own

01:21:13.819 --> 01:21:16.020
way. Like I was more visible and more at risk

01:21:16.020 --> 01:21:18.319
while looking visibly non -binary. Yeah. But

01:21:18.319 --> 01:21:20.939
now I have that to deal with while also dealing

01:21:20.939 --> 01:21:23.100
with the fact that because of things that I've

01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:25.460
done as part of my medical transition, I don't

01:21:25.460 --> 01:21:28.039
100 % completely pass as a woman, even though

01:21:28.039 --> 01:21:30.159
that's what I was assigned at birth. Yeah, yeah.

01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:31.960
So I do sometimes get people doing a double take

01:21:31.960 --> 01:21:33.600
when I walk into the ladies' toilets because

01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:35.300
I can't really go in the men's now looking like

01:21:35.300 --> 01:21:38.279
this. Yeah. but i've got a little bit of stubble

01:21:38.279 --> 01:21:41.100
and a deep voice and i'm tall anyway yeah and

01:21:41.100 --> 01:21:43.800
now it's like oh god is that a trans woman so

01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:46.439
i get this like weird misdirected trans misogyny

01:21:46.439 --> 01:21:48.800
as well yeah so it's never as straightforward

01:21:48.800 --> 01:21:51.760
as well i fit in this box so i've got loads of

01:21:51.760 --> 01:21:53.539
privilege it's like you fit in that box so you

01:21:53.539 --> 01:21:55.220
get a certain conditional privilege and that's

01:21:55.220 --> 01:21:59.159
not quite the same thing yeah that is true anyway

01:21:59.159 --> 01:22:01.060
should we get back to sexuality We should do

01:22:01.060 --> 01:22:02.960
that. That was a heck of a diversion, wasn't

01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:04.380
it? I mean, it was a diversion that was in the

01:22:04.380 --> 01:22:06.840
outline because it was about our sexuality as

01:22:06.840 --> 01:22:09.479
relates to gender. Yeah, that is true. So the

01:22:09.479 --> 01:22:11.159
last thing I think we wanted to talk about was,

01:22:11.220 --> 01:22:13.560
and it goes back to something, the word I made

01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:17.100
up earlier on, domosexual, which is definitely

01:22:17.100 --> 01:22:21.739
what you are. But it does raise the question

01:22:21.739 --> 01:22:24.960
of whether or not being kinky is in itself a

01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:28.649
sexuality. Yeah, Mix. And for me, I would say

01:22:28.649 --> 01:22:30.329
it definitely is. Like, we joke about domosexual,

01:22:30.569 --> 01:22:32.670
but I am increasingly starting to identify myself

01:22:32.670 --> 01:22:34.949
more as a submissive than I am as a pansexual.

01:22:35.529 --> 01:22:38.770
Because for me, the move to identifying as pansexual

01:22:38.770 --> 01:22:40.670
happened around the time that I started exploring

01:22:40.670 --> 01:22:43.189
kink more and started recognising what it actually

01:22:43.189 --> 01:22:45.390
was that I looked for in relationships. Like,

01:22:45.409 --> 01:22:47.729
what I looked for to establish my attraction

01:22:47.729 --> 01:22:50.409
to somebody was someone that I felt could dominate

01:22:50.409 --> 01:22:52.489
me and lead me, even before I figured out I was

01:22:52.489 --> 01:22:55.649
kinky. Like, I looked fair. traits that i associated

01:22:55.649 --> 01:22:59.529
with that um so i realized that defining my sexuality

01:22:59.529 --> 01:23:02.329
primarily by gender didn't really make sense

01:23:02.329 --> 01:23:03.930
because that wasn't really particularly relevant

01:23:03.930 --> 01:23:06.609
to me anymore so pansexual this attraction regardless

01:23:06.609 --> 01:23:10.109
of gender felt like a good fit but i've started

01:23:10.109 --> 01:23:11.770
to feel over the last couple of years that i'm

01:23:11.770 --> 01:23:14.329
still what i'm doing now is essentially defining

01:23:14.329 --> 01:23:17.250
my sexuality by what it's not Yeah. Saying my

01:23:17.250 --> 01:23:19.109
attraction to people is not based on gender,

01:23:19.189 --> 01:23:20.930
but I'm not giving the information on what it

01:23:20.930 --> 01:23:23.470
is based on. And what it's based on for me is

01:23:23.470 --> 01:23:26.210
dominance. I'm attracted to dominance and sadists.

01:23:26.390 --> 01:23:28.810
Ideally, ideally, people need to be both. Really,

01:23:28.909 --> 01:23:32.869
that's my type. There's an element of sort of

01:23:32.869 --> 01:23:36.369
connection with personality and emotional intelligence

01:23:36.369 --> 01:23:38.090
and those things. But those are more my standards

01:23:38.090 --> 01:23:40.069
for a relationship than they are required for

01:23:40.069 --> 01:23:42.829
my attraction. I can be attracted to people and

01:23:42.829 --> 01:23:45.239
have casual hookups with them without. necessarily

01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:47.300
feeling like they are suitable for me to have

01:23:47.300 --> 01:23:50.000
a relationship with but i'm not attracted at

01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:53.840
all if they aren't dominant right so i'm starting

01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:56.000
to feel like now like if i'm asked what my sexual

01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:58.220
orientation is the actual honest answer is that

01:23:58.220 --> 01:24:01.220
i'm a submissive i'm attractive to people who

01:24:01.220 --> 01:24:04.520
are dominance my my sort of mirror in that is

01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:06.659
what i'm looking for yeah so that's the case

01:24:06.659 --> 01:24:08.279
for me i know that's not the case for everybody

01:24:08.279 --> 01:24:10.619
there's a lot of kinky people who it's more like

01:24:10.619 --> 01:24:12.779
a hobby for them or it's something that enhances

01:24:12.779 --> 01:24:14.779
their sex life or their intimate life or their

01:24:14.779 --> 01:24:18.180
relationships. And it's not even a necessary

01:24:18.180 --> 01:24:20.340
factor to have in a relationship. And it's definitely

01:24:20.340 --> 01:24:22.560
not part of the initial attraction. Yeah. For

01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:25.560
me, it definitely is. Yeah. And I think probably

01:24:25.560 --> 01:24:27.619
for me too, I kind of haven't gone through that

01:24:27.619 --> 01:24:32.079
thought process of, is my sexual identity, my

01:24:32.079 --> 01:24:37.329
sexuality dominant, submissive sexual? Sub -sexual,

01:24:37.449 --> 01:24:39.890
I suppose. So I think I couldn't, now that I've

01:24:39.890 --> 01:24:41.750
been in the kind of relationship that we have

01:24:41.750 --> 01:24:43.369
been in, and hopefully this will be the last

01:24:43.369 --> 01:24:45.050
relationship that I am in, so this is completely

01:24:45.050 --> 01:24:47.850
hypothetical and irrelevant, but I don't think

01:24:47.850 --> 01:24:50.470
I could be in a long -term relationship with

01:24:50.470 --> 01:24:52.470
someone where there wasn't an element of power

01:24:52.470 --> 01:24:55.130
exchange. So I would be looking for someone whose

01:24:55.130 --> 01:25:00.430
orientation is submissive. Yeah. I guess I haven't

01:25:00.430 --> 01:25:02.789
necessarily made the connection between those

01:25:02.789 --> 01:25:05.449
two things in my head. My sexuality and my kink

01:25:05.449 --> 01:25:09.130
orientation are two parts of my identity, two

01:25:09.130 --> 01:25:12.109
really important parts of my identity, rather

01:25:12.109 --> 01:25:14.949
than being my identity. Yeah. If that makes sense.

01:25:15.149 --> 01:25:18.010
It does, yeah, Mix. And I think my perception

01:25:18.010 --> 01:25:19.470
from having talked to you about this before,

01:25:19.550 --> 01:25:22.090
the difference between us is the initial attraction

01:25:22.090 --> 01:25:25.539
is not possible for me without... some indication

01:25:25.539 --> 01:25:27.560
of dominance they don't necessarily need to be

01:25:27.560 --> 01:25:29.520
someone who identifies themselves as a dominant

01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:31.140
they might not have any kink experience at all

01:25:31.140 --> 01:25:32.739
but there needs to be something i see in them

01:25:32.739 --> 01:25:35.859
that is a dominant quality yeah for me to experience

01:25:35.859 --> 01:25:39.760
any level of attraction like physical sort of

01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:42.779
romantic any of that i need to perceive dominance

01:25:42.779 --> 01:25:45.260
in someone where i think for you the initial

01:25:45.260 --> 01:25:48.340
spark of attraction can be there Yeah. But then

01:25:48.340 --> 01:25:50.279
if you got to know them and found out they didn't

01:25:50.279 --> 01:25:51.920
want any kind of power exchange in the relationship,

01:25:52.060 --> 01:25:53.840
that would be a deal breaker in terms of compatibility,

01:25:54.000 --> 01:25:56.500
but it wouldn't be the attraction. Yeah. I think

01:25:56.500 --> 01:25:58.300
that's where we experience it a little bit differently.

01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:01.779
Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah. I could be attracted

01:26:01.779 --> 01:26:03.840
to people who aren't submissive, but I wouldn't

01:26:03.840 --> 01:26:05.800
want to be in a long term relationship with them.

01:26:05.960 --> 01:26:09.770
Yeah. I think like one of the. the labels that

01:26:09.770 --> 01:26:11.710
i've never used but has sort of floated around

01:26:11.710 --> 01:26:13.750
on the edge of my perception occasionally i've

01:26:13.750 --> 01:26:15.750
looked at and gone maybe that's me is demisexual

01:26:15.750 --> 01:26:18.390
which is where you're not physically attracted

01:26:18.390 --> 01:26:20.430
to someone unless you have some sort of emotional

01:26:20.430 --> 01:26:23.270
connection first yeah The reason I don't use

01:26:23.270 --> 01:26:25.590
it is typically the people who use the term demisexual,

01:26:25.729 --> 01:26:27.890
that's quite a lengthy process where they have

01:26:27.890 --> 01:26:29.689
to build an emotional connection over a period

01:26:29.689 --> 01:26:32.630
of time. It can be almost instant for me, but

01:26:32.630 --> 01:26:34.989
I don't experience physical attraction until

01:26:34.989 --> 01:26:37.689
I'm attracted to the person mentally first. Right.

01:26:38.430 --> 01:26:40.750
So, you know, if I'm swiping through dating apps,

01:26:40.810 --> 01:26:42.289
I'll look at the pictures and I might think that's

01:26:42.289 --> 01:26:44.529
a nice picture you've taken aesthetically. I

01:26:44.529 --> 01:26:47.310
can appreciate it. But I've never messaged someone

01:26:47.310 --> 01:26:49.649
or swiped whichever way you swipe to match with

01:26:49.649 --> 01:26:51.760
someone if they didn't have interesting... text

01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:54.420
in their profile or something that gives me a

01:26:54.420 --> 01:26:56.359
bit of their personality so a picture showing

01:26:56.359 --> 01:26:58.279
them doing an activity that makes their their

01:26:58.279 --> 01:27:01.060
personality seem interesting to me yeah my attraction

01:27:01.060 --> 01:27:03.899
is very much something that's happening in in

01:27:03.899 --> 01:27:07.119
the mental space yeah and then once i've got

01:27:07.119 --> 01:27:09.239
that that mental connection then the physical

01:27:09.239 --> 01:27:10.840
attraction can follow and as i said it can be

01:27:10.840 --> 01:27:13.079
very quickly it could be a five minute conversation

01:27:13.079 --> 01:27:15.199
and then i'll start thinking they're super hot

01:27:15.199 --> 01:27:17.420
to look at as well yeah but that doesn't come

01:27:17.420 --> 01:27:20.970
first so i think if i was going to move to another

01:27:20.970 --> 01:27:23.189
of the sort of standard set of sexuality labels

01:27:23.189 --> 01:27:27.569
maybe demisexual would be it but because i know

01:27:27.569 --> 01:27:29.750
exactly what the thing is that i'm looking for

01:27:29.750 --> 01:27:31.729
from the mental connection and it's the dominance

01:27:31.729 --> 01:27:34.329
yeah it makes more sense to really justify myself

01:27:34.329 --> 01:27:37.390
as a submissive and the rest of it is is kind

01:27:37.390 --> 01:27:40.539
of just noise for me yeah Because demisexuality

01:27:40.539 --> 01:27:42.619
is about placing yourself on the spectrum between

01:27:42.619 --> 01:27:45.800
asexual and allosexual. And pansexual is about

01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:48.819
placing yourself on the spectrum between gay

01:27:48.819 --> 01:27:51.420
and straight. And actually, none of that is particularly

01:27:51.420 --> 01:27:53.699
relevant to me. I'm horny as fuck for a dominant.

01:27:53.920 --> 01:27:56.960
So that's the important bit of information there.

01:27:58.000 --> 01:28:01.020
Yeah, fair. So just in case people aren't familiar,

01:28:01.199 --> 01:28:04.380
allosexual? Allosexual is the opposite of asexual

01:28:04.380 --> 01:28:06.560
mix. So someone who does experience sexual attraction.

01:28:07.119 --> 01:28:08.819
right in a typical way in the way that you would

01:28:08.819 --> 01:28:13.779
expect yeah okay it's dead interesting to think

01:28:13.779 --> 01:28:16.760
about isn't it like what is it that drives sexual

01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:19.739
attraction and sexuality and like a lot of the

01:28:19.739 --> 01:28:22.039
labels are kind of built around the gender binary

01:28:22.039 --> 01:28:26.779
yeah or the gender spectrum yeah um or about

01:28:26.779 --> 01:28:29.899
physical attraction yeah um yeah the majority

01:28:29.899 --> 01:28:33.909
of sexuality terms do It makes the assumption

01:28:33.909 --> 01:28:36.029
that sexuality is always something to do with

01:28:36.029 --> 01:28:38.350
gender, even if gender isn't important to your

01:28:38.350 --> 01:28:41.369
sexuality. And actually the things that make

01:28:41.369 --> 01:28:43.949
people attracted to each other are often about

01:28:43.949 --> 01:28:46.170
a lot more than that, often about a range of

01:28:46.170 --> 01:28:49.029
things. And I'm not just talking about the things

01:28:49.029 --> 01:28:51.829
that you're looking for to have a healthy, positive,

01:28:51.909 --> 01:28:53.590
fulfilling relationship with someone. I mean

01:28:53.590 --> 01:28:55.409
that initial thing that makes you go, God, I

01:28:55.409 --> 01:28:57.090
want to fuck them or God, I want to date them

01:28:57.090 --> 01:28:59.270
before you've actually analysed whether that's

01:28:59.270 --> 01:29:01.500
something you're going to do or not. Yeah. Even

01:29:01.500 --> 01:29:05.279
then, it often isn't just about sort of sex characteristics,

01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:08.880
gender expression, physical appearance. It is

01:29:08.880 --> 01:29:10.739
often more complicated than that for other people.

01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:14.340
Like I can, as I said, I can aesthetically appreciate

01:29:14.340 --> 01:29:16.859
a good looking person. But in the same way, I

01:29:16.859 --> 01:29:20.520
appreciate a piece of art on the wall. I don't

01:29:20.520 --> 01:29:21.920
want to fuck someone based on what they look

01:29:21.920 --> 01:29:23.579
like. I want to fuck someone based on what's

01:29:23.579 --> 01:29:26.180
going on in their brain. yeah and i think for

01:29:26.180 --> 01:29:27.840
a start a lot of people don't really sort of

01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:29.600
acknowledge that as a thing and when people do

01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:31.659
they often act like that means you're more evolved

01:29:31.659 --> 01:29:33.539
or special or something it's like no like i can

01:29:33.539 --> 01:29:37.460
still have casual sex and yeah just want to hook

01:29:37.460 --> 01:29:40.000
up with someone because they get me hot and bothered

01:29:40.000 --> 01:29:42.180
like i can still be really shallow about it it's

01:29:42.180 --> 01:29:43.939
just the things i'm shallow about are different

01:29:43.939 --> 01:29:46.260
yeah another dead interesting podcast i hope

01:29:46.260 --> 01:29:49.020
people found that interesting i just it is obviously

01:29:49.020 --> 01:29:51.890
always good to talk about kinky things But it

01:29:51.890 --> 01:29:54.109
is also just as much fun to kind of delve into

01:29:54.109 --> 01:29:57.510
stuff that's kink adjacent. Yeah. You know, because

01:29:57.510 --> 01:29:59.890
there's that. We've said it before, and I think

01:29:59.890 --> 01:30:02.109
we've said it, we will continue to say it. The

01:30:02.109 --> 01:30:04.350
Venn diagram of kinky people and queer people

01:30:04.350 --> 01:30:07.550
is not a circle. But there is definitely a good

01:30:07.550 --> 01:30:10.890
amount of kind of overlap, isn't there? And it's

01:30:10.890 --> 01:30:13.350
always fascinating to think about, is that a

01:30:13.350 --> 01:30:15.949
directional thing? yeah are kind of people who

01:30:15.949 --> 01:30:18.189
have queer sexualities more likely to be kinky

01:30:18.189 --> 01:30:20.149
or are kinky people more likely to have queer

01:30:20.149 --> 01:30:23.289
sexualities or is it just random yeah i really

01:30:23.289 --> 01:30:26.310
liked when we had lydia on the podcast yes the

01:30:26.310 --> 01:30:29.149
founder of kilter um talking about her experiences

01:30:29.149 --> 01:30:33.250
as a kinky lesbian one of her theories for why

01:30:33.250 --> 01:30:35.109
there is that strong overlap between the two

01:30:35.109 --> 01:30:37.770
is that if you're a queer person you're having

01:30:37.770 --> 01:30:40.529
to sort of acquaint yourself with more equipment

01:30:40.529 --> 01:30:43.649
and education yeah so you're having to go looking

01:30:43.649 --> 01:30:45.210
for things that are a little bit off the standard

01:30:45.210 --> 01:30:47.670
menu anyway yeah um you know if you're going

01:30:47.670 --> 01:30:49.949
out to buy a strap -on harness yeah you might

01:30:49.949 --> 01:30:51.970
pick up a flogger while you're at it yeah yeah

01:30:51.970 --> 01:30:54.250
your curiosity is going to be drawn where if

01:30:54.250 --> 01:30:56.029
you're straight i think about you know the first

01:30:56.029 --> 01:30:59.250
time i tried anal sex in a as far as i knew at

01:30:59.250 --> 01:31:00.810
the time completely straight relationship you

01:31:00.810 --> 01:31:02.949
know i was i was identifying as a woman i was

01:31:02.949 --> 01:31:05.010
in a relationship with a man we were both way

01:31:05.010 --> 01:31:08.989
too embarrassed to buy lube google any safety

01:31:08.989 --> 01:31:12.000
information learn anything about you know pre

01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:14.460
-play clean up any of that and we just had a

01:31:14.460 --> 01:31:16.340
terrible time we just had some really bad anal

01:31:16.340 --> 01:31:20.319
sex yeah yeah where if you are if your sort of

01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:23.180
normal sex is already seen as a little bit outside

01:31:23.180 --> 01:31:26.060
the norm you kind of have to get over that at

01:31:26.060 --> 01:31:28.039
a certain point relatively quickly so you might

01:31:28.039 --> 01:31:30.279
find your way into kink a little bit easier yeah

01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:33.859
so i think that's a solid theory yeah yeah well

01:31:33.859 --> 01:31:35.859
there you go on that note let's go and have a

01:31:35.859 --> 01:31:57.310
cup of tea bye See you next time.