WEBVTT

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Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast

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where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,

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a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who

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likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And

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I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver

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all of the above. And today we're going to be

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talking about the discourse -friendly topic,

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kink at pride. Woo! We're here, we're queer.

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Give us a beer. So this is the first of a few

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episodes which are focused around pride. Yes,

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mate. To celebrate Pride Month. Happy Pride Month,

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everyone. Happy Pride Month, everybody. We are

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in Pride Month. So there will be pride flags

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everywhere. Yes. On top of all of the big companies

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who are very gay for 30 days a year. Yes. And

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like to take the queer pound. And then they will

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forget about us. I like to take the queer pound

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mix. Jesus fucking Christ. Oh my God. You just

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turn everything filthy, don't you? You really

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set that one up for me. I did. Not deliberately.

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That was not planned at all. But to be fair.

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a pretty good way of getting into an episode

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about kink at pride yeah and you know what a

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way to start a run of episodes talking about

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and celebrating Pride Month, the most controversial

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bit of it that we could think of. Let's start

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there. Absolutely. So, yeah, we've got just to

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give you a little preview of what's coming up

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in a couple of weeks. We've got an episode talking

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about sexual orientation and sexuality in general.

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The final episode of Pride Month is going to

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be talking about the leather community and boot

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blacking. And then next week is one that wasn't

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specifically a Pride Month one, but I felt like

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fitted in really well because both of the guests

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are trans and they're going to be talking to

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us about age play and ABDA. but specifically

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from a trans perspective and talking about the

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intersections of being the the sort of least

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wanted people at the party from two different

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angles yeah which i think is something that's

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really worth fitting in there yes so yeah we've

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got an exciting month coming up yeah excellent

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stuff so let's talk about our experience of pride

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first i think um because i've only been to a

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couple my first pride experience was with you

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yeah we went to um we went to newcastle pride

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And we did the march. And then we hung about

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with some pals. And it was a really fun time.

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I had a great time doing it. But I got to the

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age of, what would I have been then? 45. And

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never been to Pride. Yeah. I can't remember if

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I've ever asked you why you'd never gone before,

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Mix. I think I was a bit cynical about it. Yeah.

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I think. As if you could tell. By the way that

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I introduced this episode, kind of criticising

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corporate pride efforts. Yeah, I am not the most

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well -educated when it comes to the history of

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pride and queer history, generally. You've taught

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me quite a lot, and other pals have taught me

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quite a lot, but I'm not massively educated on

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it. But one thing I do know... is that Pride

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wasn't started and wasn't intended to be a corporate

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branded street party for kids. Yeah, very much

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not that. That's not what that was. It was a

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protest. It's a cliche, but it's true. Pride

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was a riot. Yeah. So I think I was a little bit

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cynical about the concept of it. So I didn't

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go. and didn't go before I came out as bisexual,

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didn't go after I came out as bisexual for the

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same sort of reasons. I think that changed a

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little bit when we got together because I think

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one of the many, many, many, many, many things

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I love about you is that you are quite fearlessly

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queer in the same way that you are quite fearlessly

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kinky. And that's quite inspiring. I go, actually,

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I'm never going to be as fearlessly queer as

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you are. But I can be visibly queer. And I probably

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should be. So why not? Yeah. But also, you wanted

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to go to Pride. And I was like, yeah, fine. Let's

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do that. You know? And I think the first time

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that we went was really nice because we met up

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with some pals in the pub near where the parade

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starts in Newcastle. We did the parade. And then...

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we went to a couple of things which weren't the

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big official Pride Festival stuff. Like some

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of our friends are involved in local trans groups

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and they were doing things. They had a little

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gathering outside the Civic Centre in Newcastle

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and then they had an event that they were running

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at a place called One Strawberry Lane. Yeah.

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So we did that and it was just really nice to

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kind of be a part of it but not involved in the...

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big flashy lights yeah and part of that was because

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we didn't want to buy tickets for the the main

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arena which is something that that as we'll come

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on to we have done since and it's getting to

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the point where it's very hard to find a pride

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that is actually a free pride all the way through

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especially any of the bigger prides yeah which

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i think is a real shame so i had a real Reluctance

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to pay for tickets to Pride, I object to that.

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Because, yeah, Pride started as riots and protests.

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And it's supposed to be for everybody who's part

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of the community. And it should be accessible

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to all. And paywalling it doesn't sit well with

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me. No. But that does... It pushes you to those

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sort of more community -organised fringe bits,

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which can be really good. But also, if you're

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looking to get drunk and listen to loud music,

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sometimes you can feel like you're missing out

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a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And... You know, to

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be fair to Newcastle Pride, the whole thing isn't

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paywalled. Obviously, the march is not paywalled.

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They have a vigil at the end of it, which is

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free to attend. And there are other things going

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on around the city centre, which are accessible

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to everybody. But it's not the main attraction.

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It feels a bit sort of like afterthought -y to

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me. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know,

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they have a little market in Old Eldon Square,

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but that is mostly... organizations with pride

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branded merch yeah um not a lot of actually local

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actually queer makers and sellers yeah and that

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feels like something that's shifted in pride

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over the years that i've been going to it where

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the market used to be a lot more of a mix there

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were always organizations there but it wasn't

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just organizations and yeah almost exclusively

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is and i don't know if that's pride pricing small

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businesses out i don't know if it's more organizations

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applying that's kind of forced them out or who

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knows who knows what the reason is but um but

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yeah it becomes very much like you're going around

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lots of different big companies telling you how

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great they are yeah which isn't always the vibe

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that you want no and isn't always true yeah either

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um if we're being really cynical about it um

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so yeah my first pride experience was really

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fun pretty low -key we we kind of did the march

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hung out and then realized that we're actually

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quite middle -aged so i came home and ordered

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some takeaway which was good too which was good

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too my first pride was a long time ago right

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my first pride was 2009 Oh, wow. So I don't know

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if there had been any more local to me where

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I lived in Halifax. I'm pretty confident there

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wasn't a Halifax Pride at the time. There might

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be now. So probably my nearest would have been

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like Leeds or Manchester when I was a teenager

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and I'd never been to either of those. And then

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when I was first dating my ex who lived in Newcastle.

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he suggested that we go to newcastle pride and

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i came up for that um so that was at the time

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a much smaller event there was still a pretty

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big march but not as big as it gets these days

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and then it finished up in leases park yeah and

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they had stalls and they had their main stage

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but their main stage then was like one of the

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little like extra stages now it was teeny um

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and they had various different performers on

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the stage and there were bars but it was very

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much The vibe was like going for a picnic with

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your mates in the park where there was a little

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bit of stuff going on. I baked a big, big box

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of rainbow cupcakes and took them around Pride,

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handing them out to people. And people absolutely

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loved it. It was great. We sneaked in our own

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alcohol, which you weren't supposed to do. Naughty.

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And we drank it and I fell over. And then we

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went home and it was really nice. And there were

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downsides too. Like there was people on stage

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like openly saying really biphobic things, which

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was a bit of a slap in the face with me identifying

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as bisexual at the time at my first Pride. Like,

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don't like that. But there were more things good

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about it than there were bad. And a lot of the

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things that I liked most about it, the things

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that have been lost over the years, like now...

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Pride now obviously happens in Newcastle, it

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happens in the city centre, where after the march

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it becomes very sort of scattered. Some people

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are going to the main stage, some people are

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going to the additional stage that there is,

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some people are going to look at the stalls,

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but they're all spread out all across the city

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rather than all being together in one big park.

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When they were still having it in a park, they

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were having it in Exhibition Park, which is quite

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a lot bigger. And they were not allowing people

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to bring in any of their own food and drink.

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I know not letting people sneak in alcohol is

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probably for the best, but not letting people

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bring in picnic food, bring in cakes to share

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and things like that took away some of the community

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feel and prices out a lot of families and people

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who are unemployed, which is a bit of shit because

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the food vans are very expensive. They're often

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really nice, but if you're taking all your kids,

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it's not ideal. And in common with a lot of those,

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like street food vendors, quite a lot of money

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for not a lot of food. Yeah. You don't get great

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portions a lot of the time. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

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And pricing out people who are in work, not just

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people who are unemployed. Like, that shit is

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expensive. Yeah, it does get really expensive.

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So I think, I mean, that's one of the good things

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about the move to Pride in the City that they're

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now doing is that unless you're going into the

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main arena, if you do want to bring your own

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sandwiches or go into one of the shops or cafes

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around town, you can do that, which is a plus.

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But I feel like it makes it feel less community

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focused because everyone scatters in that way.

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Yeah. yeah yeah so there's ups and downs to it

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and definitely having the the main stage being

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a pay to get in situation yeah it's something

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that i'll never be fully on board with but i

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still love pride however much it changes and

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however much it starts to drift away from its

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protest spirit it's still the only time of the

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year that you can go into newcastle and just

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everywhere you see are openly visibly loudly

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proudly queer people everywhere expressing themselves

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that's really cool environment out on the The

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gay scene around the gay bars on Pride Night

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is always just amazing. I mean, very crowded

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and very expensive, but amazing. So there's still

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more good about it than bad. But like you, I'm

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very much like, yeah, this stuff started as a

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protest and that's important. We don't want to

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completely lose that in all the partying. You

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know, things being good enough that we can party

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more than we protest is a good problem to have.

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But I think sometimes we ignore the stuff that

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we still really should be protesting about. Yeah.

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Because it's easier to market. Let's wear rainbows

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and get drunk in the park. Yeah. Yeah. There's

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that level of almost acceptability politics to

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it, isn't there? That kind of this version of

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queer is palatable to the mass market. So it

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is all about partying in the city centre and

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waving rainbow flags and stuff like that. Yeah.

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Because people, not everybody, obviously, because

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you still get the, oh, what about straight pride?

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but that's an easier sell yeah than actually

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things are still a bit shit for a lot of us things

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are actually things are really shit for a good

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number of us and and that's not great yeah the

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messaging has become very palatable it's like

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love is love it's like okay cool but it was sex

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that was criminalized not love so let's remember

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what this is about first um and also like maybe

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we should focus more on like the rollback of

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trans rights and the rights of queer youth and

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the suicide rates and the mental health rates

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and the drug addiction and smoking and all of

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that like those are the things we should really

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be paying attention to there's a lot we have

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to celebrate as well considering how far the

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community has come since the first prides yeah

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but i feel like we should have space for both

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yeah in there yeah there is a way of delivering

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that really hard message yeah without necessarily

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ruining the desired festival vibe of Pride in

00:13:11.750 --> 00:13:14.470
the Sea. Yeah. And I still love the festival

00:13:14.470 --> 00:13:17.169
vibe, as we saw last year. I'm more than capable

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of getting extremely drunk and having a great

00:13:19.110 --> 00:13:22.029
time at a Pride party. Yes, because we did sacrifice

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our morals a little bit, didn't we? At last year's

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Pride. And we purchased tickets for the arena

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bit of the Pride weekend, which was fun. It was.

00:13:35.649 --> 00:13:39.299
It was fun. One of us, and I'm not saying which

00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:43.779
one of us it is, but one of us got extremely

00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:48.679
drunk and almost died. I wouldn't say almost

00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.399
died, Mix. I didn't feel great the next day.

00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:56.000
No. So Newcastle Pride, it's a two -day festival,

00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:58.519
isn't it? It's a two -day thing in the main arena.

00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.799
So we rock up after the march on the Saturday

00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:07.559
and you, in the space of... I would say an hour

00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:12.059
and a half down to two bottles of what I can

00:14:12.059 --> 00:14:15.220
only really describe as vinegar masquerading

00:14:15.220 --> 00:14:18.820
as wine. Overpriced. Masquerading as very expensive

00:14:18.820 --> 00:14:24.019
wine. Yeah. And to be fair to you, that day you

00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:25.559
had a great time. I don't know. Everybody had

00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.580
a great time. You were incredibly drunk, dancing

00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:33.759
around in your tiny little outfit with your nose

00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:38.840
hook on. having a great time um and to be fair

00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.659
it was fun wasn't it in the arena it wasn't as

00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:42.480
busy as i thought it would be i think it got

00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.159
busy later on but we ended up meandering out

00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:48.240
um yeah but yeah it wasn't as busy as i would

00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:51.220
have thought um but it was really fun yeah decent

00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:52.840
entertainment i still think they should spend

00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:55.019
less on entertainment that's i will get on my

00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:56.700
soapbox over and over again today i think if

00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.779
they spent less on entertainment they could do

00:14:58.779 --> 00:15:01.559
more with pride as a whole but yeah seeing as

00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.669
they've done it We go. We have a good time. We

00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:05.190
have two bottles of wine. Everything's great.

00:15:05.629 --> 00:15:08.549
I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Really enjoyed wearing

00:15:08.549 --> 00:15:09.889
my nose hook. And the whole time I was like,

00:15:09.970 --> 00:15:11.509
wow, this is surprising how comfortable this

00:15:11.509 --> 00:15:13.230
is wearing this all day like this. Yeah, it's

00:15:13.230 --> 00:15:15.029
because I was drunk. You were drunk. Because

00:15:15.029 --> 00:15:16.870
you have a harness, a leather harness, don't

00:15:16.870 --> 00:15:18.629
you, which has got like pig ears on it. And you

00:15:18.629 --> 00:15:21.049
can either have a nose hook or a pig nose. Yeah.

00:15:21.090 --> 00:15:26.970
On it. So you were queer pig. Queer pig. At Pride.

00:15:28.909 --> 00:15:30.690
And you looked amazing. Thank you. You looked

00:15:30.690 --> 00:15:33.809
absolutely fabulous. So did you. You stole my

00:15:33.809 --> 00:15:38.970
shirt. I did. Which one was it? Was it the multicoloured

00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:41.549
one? Yeah, rainbow leopard print shirt mix. Yes,

00:15:41.629 --> 00:15:45.149
I did. Yeah. No, you're right. That was really

00:15:45.149 --> 00:15:47.889
good. So we had a great time. I can't remember

00:15:47.889 --> 00:15:49.669
who was on on the Saturday because we saw the

00:15:49.669 --> 00:15:52.669
Taylor Swift tribute, but I feel like that was

00:15:52.669 --> 00:15:54.529
Sunday. That was Sunday when I was dying mix.

00:15:54.669 --> 00:15:56.710
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were in the arena. Then

00:15:56.710 --> 00:15:58.789
we went round the gay scene and then we went

00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:01.679
back to our... tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little

00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:07.039
hotel room with soil in it yes yeah you had suggested

00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.139
very smartly and wisely i think that we stay

00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:10.639
over on the saturday night because even though

00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.320
we don't live far from newcastle if mix is drinking

00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.960
obviously they can't drive so we'd have had to

00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:18.980
either bus or taxi in on the saturday then taxi

00:16:18.980 --> 00:16:21.440
home then traveling again on the sunday by some

00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.139
form of public transport then taxi home again

00:16:23.139 --> 00:16:25.419
on sunday would have been a lot of taxis backwards

00:16:25.419 --> 00:16:28.019
and forwards and also i have found at previous

00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:29.759
prides because they've had it as a two -day thing

00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:33.240
in newcastle for a few years now that if i drink

00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:35.740
on the saturday then if i wake up in my own bed

00:16:35.740 --> 00:16:38.139
on the sunday morning i am inclined to stay there

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.340
Even if I haven't got a bad hangover, I'm just

00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.159
a little bit tired and groggy. And by the time

00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:44.779
I've got myself together and got ready to go

00:16:44.779 --> 00:16:47.480
out, I don't really fancy it anymore. So I thought

00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:50.240
if we stay in town, that will keep me going on

00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:54.659
Power 3. Yeah. So we did that. But with it being

00:16:54.659 --> 00:16:56.720
Pride weekend, a lot of the options were really

00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:58.720
expensive and you found a really cheap... It

00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:00.700
wasn't even an Airbnb. It was like an Airbnb,

00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:04.710
but not hosted through Airbnb. Yeah. these dodgy

00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:07.109
little city apartments for very little money.

00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:09.309
Yeah, yeah. And we found out why it was so cheap

00:17:09.309 --> 00:17:12.690
when we got there. Yeah. Tiny room, tiny bathroom

00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:18.470
and mysterious soil in the bed. Yes. Which was

00:17:18.470 --> 00:17:23.049
fun. I was drunk enough that I wasn't as distraught

00:17:23.049 --> 00:17:25.849
by the soil as I might have been otherwise. No.

00:17:25.950 --> 00:17:28.829
But I was not delighted by the soil either. No,

00:17:28.829 --> 00:17:31.529
no. And you were pretty poorly the next day as

00:17:31.529 --> 00:17:33.960
well, but you powered through. I did. As best

00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.039
you could until the afternoon. Yeah. And then

00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.539
we gave up and came home. Yes. Because you needed

00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:42.759
to sleep. I really did, yeah. I had an amazing

00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:49.640
time. Yeah, it was very, very good. I'm not sure

00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.920
that I would buy the tickets again. Yeah, I'm

00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.980
on the fence. We'll find out. I mean, not this

00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:56.480
year because we aren't going to be able to make

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.140
it this year, but I guess we'll decide next year.

00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:00.900
No. I know, they've really screwed us on the

00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:03.990
timing of... Local Prides this year, isn't it?

00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:06.890
Yeah, Mix. We might be able to make it to Sunderland.

00:18:07.049 --> 00:18:10.269
That one's still possible. Yeah, possibly. But

00:18:10.269 --> 00:18:12.250
Durham Pride, which is our nearest one, which

00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:13.730
we haven't been to together before, but I have

00:18:13.730 --> 00:18:18.289
in the past, it normally falls the weekend before

00:18:18.289 --> 00:18:21.130
your birthday, but this year it falls on the

00:18:21.130 --> 00:18:22.730
weekend of your birthday and we'd already booked

00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:25.730
to be away in London. Yes. Which is a better

00:18:25.730 --> 00:18:27.250
plan anyway. Yeah, yeah. That's going to be really

00:18:27.250 --> 00:18:30.839
exciting. you know clash can't do it and newcastle

00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.640
pride clashes with our kinky camping trip that

00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.000
we're going on yes this year falls on the same

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.880
weekend so we will not be here we will be breaking

00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:43.980
the geneva convention in a field yes uh which

00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:46.539
again probably a better plan yeah but it is a

00:18:46.539 --> 00:18:47.900
shame that we can't get to although we are we

00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.539
but we are vaguely hopeful that we can get to

00:18:50.539 --> 00:18:54.859
sunderland pride it is the day after the alternative

00:18:54.859 --> 00:18:57.960
awards so we'll be up early to get back for it

00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.500
um because we're going to the alternative awards

00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:04.559
holding out a vague hope that we might win we

00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.279
might win i hope you all voted for us we'll be

00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:10.140
real mad if you didn't yeah yeah yeah because

00:19:10.140 --> 00:19:13.740
they give you a list they give you a list of

00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.259
everybody who liked the post so you know we'll

00:19:16.259 --> 00:19:19.400
know we'll know who to ban from listening to

00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:30.470
our podcast so yeah we may not get to many prides

00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:33.329
this year and that's a shame although i will

00:19:33.329 --> 00:19:36.750
say very very funny uh to me that one of the

00:19:36.750 --> 00:19:39.430
first things that the uh reform councillors in

00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:41.890
county durham decided to do was cut the funding

00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:46.569
for pride um and immediately two trade unions

00:19:46.569 --> 00:19:49.329
turned around and said fine we'll raise the money

00:19:49.329 --> 00:19:52.049
for it and actually raised more money than the

00:19:52.049 --> 00:19:54.869
funding that was cut yeah so not only is pride

00:19:54.869 --> 00:19:57.400
still continuing despite the fact that Durham

00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:00.980
County Council is run by fascists, it's going

00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:02.480
to be bigger because they've got more money.

00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:05.460
And I just love that. It's amazing. Yeah, it's

00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:07.759
brilliant. I am very, very pleased about that.

00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.619
It was Equity and the TUC, Trade Unions Congress,

00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.119
who raised the money to make up the shortfall.

00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:17.259
And they got more. Yeah. Which is just mint.

00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:21.180
But I just wanted to mention, because you have

00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:24.200
been to a lot of parties. I have. And you haven't

00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.759
been part of the... organizing of the pride itself

00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.200
but you have been part of like community groups

00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.119
who have organized for people to attend together

00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.940
and have have a good time yeah mick so i used

00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:37.000
to be a volunteer with b which is a local trans

00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.079
organization and while i was part of b i helped

00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.509
in I helped organise getting a group of our members

00:20:43.509 --> 00:20:46.089
together to go to Pride, making sure everyone

00:20:46.089 --> 00:20:47.730
gathered together, making sure people had someone

00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:49.349
to walk with to arrive and things like that.

00:20:49.390 --> 00:20:52.130
And that was always really fun. And I've taken

00:20:52.130 --> 00:20:54.329
a lot of people to their first Prides or taken

00:20:54.329 --> 00:20:56.150
people to Pride for their first Pride after coming

00:20:56.150 --> 00:20:59.490
out as trans when they're a bit nervous. I've

00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:01.750
been to a lot of prides. Like definitely there

00:21:01.750 --> 00:21:03.470
were a few years where I was sort of going to

00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:05.509
Newcastle and Durham and sometimes some of the

00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:07.690
smaller ones further afield as well. That's always

00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:09.930
been a really big feature of my summer is getting

00:21:09.930 --> 00:21:11.809
involved in pride and doing what I can. I've

00:21:11.809 --> 00:21:13.430
done a little bit of volunteering at pride, helping

00:21:13.430 --> 00:21:15.569
out on stalls for various groups and organisations

00:21:15.569 --> 00:21:18.990
before. And it's always been something that feels

00:21:18.990 --> 00:21:23.009
really good, feels rewarding. I think as I get

00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:28.819
older, because I am so old. I like to just go

00:21:28.819 --> 00:21:30.720
to Pride to have a good time for me now. Go with

00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.299
my friends, go with you. Yeah. Go to have some

00:21:33.299 --> 00:21:36.079
drinks and party because as much as it is all

00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.279
about giving back and community and protest and

00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.140
all that good stuff, I have done a lot of that.

00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:43.579
Yeah. And so now sometimes it is nice to just

00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:45.480
go for the party vibes while still remembering

00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.019
what it's there for. Yeah. I think that's totally

00:21:48.019 --> 00:21:51.079
okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with

00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:55.519
that at all. You have done a lot for the community.

00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.440
over the years and beyond just Pride. Yeah, I

00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.779
used to do a huge amount. And I think there is

00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:07.039
a temptation sometimes or like a little bit of

00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:08.579
pressure almost sometimes when you're a queer

00:22:08.579 --> 00:22:11.000
person to feel like your job as a queer person

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.240
is to be a queer activist. Yeah. And the point

00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.319
of queer activism is so that queer people can

00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:17.059
just live queer lives without having to always

00:22:17.059 --> 00:22:19.519
be doing something. Yeah. And now I'm in the

00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.039
phase of not doing something. 100 % valid. Were

00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:28.980
you at the legendary washout? Yes, Mix, I was.

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.200
I had done like a full sort of over the top drag

00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:35.240
makeup and I had neon blue hair at the time.

00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:39.660
Yeah. And my makeup all melted off my face in

00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:41.740
the rain and got all over my clothes and my blue

00:22:41.740 --> 00:22:43.339
hair dye stained everything that I was anywhere

00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:46.859
near. Oh no. And we, me and a bunch of friends

00:22:46.859 --> 00:22:49.339
had made cardboard signs which literally dissolved

00:22:49.339 --> 00:22:51.599
on the march, like fully dissolved. Yeah, yeah.

00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.650
Yeah, it was extremely wet. Yeah. Was it the

00:22:55.650 --> 00:22:57.329
second day that got cancelled or did they cancel

00:22:57.329 --> 00:22:58.789
the first day as well? They cancelled the second

00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.950
day mix, yeah. Not the first, but they had to

00:23:01.950 --> 00:23:03.670
cancel all of the entertainment and stuff on

00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:05.410
the second day. And it's happened a few times.

00:23:05.470 --> 00:23:07.690
That was the worst one, but it's happened quite

00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:09.970
a few times that it's rained so heavily that

00:23:09.970 --> 00:23:12.529
it has just been chaos. Not to the point where

00:23:12.529 --> 00:23:14.190
they've had to cancel any of it before, I don't

00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:16.829
think, but some of the worst wet prides in Newcastle

00:23:16.829 --> 00:23:18.269
were before it was a two -day thing, so they

00:23:18.269 --> 00:23:20.130
sort of struggled through one day of it. Right.

00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:22.980
But yeah, it's however good the weather is in

00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.140
July, because it's July is when the Newcastle

00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:27.440
Pride always happens. It just seems like that

00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.259
weekend is always a really wet weekend. Yeah.

00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:33.740
Yeah, yeah. Because God hates us. That's right.

00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:39.019
That's why. God is homophobic and transphobic.

00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.339
Yes, Mix. Or Geordie -phobic. Maybe he's just

00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:43.059
Geordie -phobic. Maybe, because it is specifically

00:23:43.059 --> 00:23:45.400
Newcastle Pride that gets it. Well, I think that's

00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:47.079
quite enough of the light and fluffy introduction.

00:23:49.139 --> 00:23:51.359
let's talk about let's talk about kink of pride

00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.809
yes mix what's what's that about So this is always

00:23:55.809 --> 00:23:57.890
really controversial. Every year around this

00:23:57.890 --> 00:23:59.670
time of year, I start getting people asking on

00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:01.529
TikTok, like, what do I think about kink at Pride?

00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:03.490
And I start seeing all the discourse about kink

00:24:03.490 --> 00:24:06.529
at Pride from both sides of it. People getting

00:24:06.529 --> 00:24:08.730
really fighty with each other. So even when I

00:24:08.730 --> 00:24:10.890
agree with them, I'm always a bit just exhausted

00:24:10.890 --> 00:24:12.769
by it. But I thought it was worth us talking

00:24:12.769 --> 00:24:15.150
about because we have to have a position on it.

00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:17.069
And I definitely do have a position on it, which

00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:20.109
is that kink 100 % does belong at Pride. And

00:24:20.109 --> 00:24:22.140
what that looks like is going to... vary a lot

00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:24.519
depending on what kind of pride it is and what

00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:26.480
sort of pride related event it is if it's an

00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.299
adult space or if it's a more of a mixed space

00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:31.480
for example but kink is part of pride's history

00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.599
and sexuality more importantly is part of pride

00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:37.660
that's what pride is actually about um i touched

00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:39.900
on this earlier with the love is love messaging

00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:41.940
like that's great love is love love is great

00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:44.980
we love love but the reason that pride started

00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:49.660
is because gay sex was criminalized And people

00:24:49.660 --> 00:24:51.759
who are having gay sex were being persecuted

00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:53.859
and discriminated against because of it. Like

00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:56.960
this is not about who you have nice, squishy,

00:24:57.019 --> 00:24:59.559
lovey feelings for. That is important too. We

00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:01.940
love like marriage equality and all of that good

00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:04.700
stuff that's come off it. But initially what

00:25:04.700 --> 00:25:06.680
Pride was fighting for was the right for people

00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:09.460
to experience their sexuality in a fully authentic

00:25:09.460 --> 00:25:12.890
way. And naturally, kink has always been something

00:25:12.890 --> 00:25:14.809
that has been there alongside it. And I'm not

00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:16.710
primarily talking about straight kinky people,

00:25:16.809 --> 00:25:20.150
but queer culture has always had a lot of elements

00:25:20.150 --> 00:25:23.529
of BDSM and fetish within it. There are definitely

00:25:23.529 --> 00:25:25.490
queer people who don't participate in that, which

00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:27.769
is obviously fine as well. But as we'll talk

00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:29.829
about a lot more in the episode we've got about

00:25:29.829 --> 00:25:32.470
leather culture coming up, like that intersection

00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:35.390
of kinky and queer identity is where some really

00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:37.430
strong pockets of our community are formed and

00:25:37.430 --> 00:25:41.299
some of our history is best preserved. and some

00:25:41.299 --> 00:25:43.420
of the really important sort of queer traditions

00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:45.900
come from. And that is something that Pride has

00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:48.720
fought for and has been defended by and should

00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.660
continue to celebrate in my view. Yeah. And goes

00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:53.920
right back to Pride was a riot. Yeah. In that

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:56.700
it was the leather community that were one of

00:25:56.700 --> 00:25:58.619
many communities putting their bodies on the

00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:01.259
line. Yeah. To fight back against the stuff that

00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:03.640
was happening. Yeah. To those communities. So,

00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:05.380
you know, at the very least, that should probably

00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:07.960
be honoured more than it currently is. definitely

00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:10.240
because both of the prizes i've been to it's

00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.099
been amazing to see like the local leather community

00:26:13.099 --> 00:26:16.559
kind of out in force yeah but not really celebrated

00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.359
in the way that perhaps they should be if we

00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.299
are remembering our roots yeah i completely agree

00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:26.079
i think Pride, as it's morphed into what it is,

00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:27.880
as it's moved further away from protest and more

00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.140
into a party, there's been a strong focus on

00:26:30.140 --> 00:26:32.539
making it as appealing to as many people as possible

00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:34.859
because they want the numbers in, about making

00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:37.160
it family friendly, which I agree with to an

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:39.420
extent. You know, queer people have kids, are

00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:43.099
able to have kids now. Some queer people are

00:26:43.099 --> 00:26:45.500
kids. Exactly, yeah. So there has to be a space

00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:47.920
for families and minors at Pride, but that has

00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.019
to be balanced against the fact that Pride is

00:26:50.019 --> 00:26:53.660
a celebration of what for most of recorded history

00:26:53.660 --> 00:26:56.619
has been considered sexual deviance. That's why

00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:59.640
queer people have been persecuted, is because

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.140
we are considered to be deviant. But I think

00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:05.130
that... need to be inclusive of younger people

00:27:05.130 --> 00:27:07.130
and families needs to be balanced against the

00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:08.990
fact that pride has always been a celebration

00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:13.130
of and a protest in favor of deviants yeah and

00:27:13.130 --> 00:27:15.410
that's not me saying i think being queer is deviant

00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:17.849
that is society for most of recorded history

00:27:17.849 --> 00:27:20.210
has been saying that and that's exactly what

00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:23.609
we are fighting for the right to normalize and

00:27:23.609 --> 00:27:27.069
exist as where if people don't like how our sexuality

00:27:27.069 --> 00:27:30.089
looks and how it functions then they they need

00:27:30.089 --> 00:27:32.579
to manage their own Comfort with that. They need

00:27:32.579 --> 00:27:35.119
to look away if they don't want to see it. We're

00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.299
not going to make ourselves smaller. No. And

00:27:37.299 --> 00:27:39.279
getting all on board with that, but then saying,

00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:42.000
but not if you're wearing a puppet. Not if you're

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.660
wearing leather. Not if you're wearing a collar.

00:27:43.779 --> 00:27:47.079
That's too deviant. Yeah. We're part of the same

00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:50.079
community. Yeah. And I think there's this weird

00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:53.319
misconception, isn't there, about when we ask

00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.240
the question, does kink belong at Pride? And

00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.720
the answer that we give, that we both share,

00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.119
is yes. There's this misconception that what

00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:06.240
that means is a whole bunch of people naked doing

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.180
weird sex things on Northumberland Street. Yeah.

00:28:09.259 --> 00:28:11.000
Which is a major street in Newcastle, if you're

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:13.259
not familiar. And obviously that's not the reality

00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:15.940
of it. And you want to talk about kink at Pride,

00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:18.039
you already have kink at Pride because we were

00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.680
there. You were there wearing an eternity collar.

00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:24.480
Yeah. You know, even if you didn't have, like

00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.130
last year you had your... pig harness and a nose

00:28:28.130 --> 00:28:31.630
hook on which is leather fetish wear even if

00:28:31.630 --> 00:28:33.750
you didn't have that on you were still visibly

00:28:33.750 --> 00:28:37.549
kinky at pride yeah and i think it's worth pointing

00:28:37.549 --> 00:28:40.069
out the exact same amount of visibly kinky that

00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:42.730
i am in my office job in the financial sector

00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:45.869
yeah like and everywhere you go yeah Because

00:28:45.869 --> 00:28:48.230
I wear my collar all the time. So a lot of the

00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:50.390
representation of kink at Pride that people see

00:28:50.390 --> 00:28:52.670
are things that are completely legal to wear

00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:55.009
in public and acceptable in a lot of ordinary

00:28:55.009 --> 00:28:58.109
social situations. And this varies Pride to Pride.

00:28:58.210 --> 00:29:00.009
There are some Prides, I think particularly in

00:29:00.009 --> 00:29:02.069
America, where some level of public nudity is

00:29:02.069 --> 00:29:05.789
quite normalised. Yeah. But even... there you're

00:29:05.789 --> 00:29:07.609
not going to be seeing sex acts you're not going

00:29:07.609 --> 00:29:09.329
to be seeing people tying each other up and hitting

00:29:09.329 --> 00:29:11.730
each other in public as a general rule the law

00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:15.089
still applies you know pride is often quite heavily

00:29:15.089 --> 00:29:18.589
policed um both because police want to have a

00:29:18.589 --> 00:29:20.849
visible presence to portray themselves as allies

00:29:20.849 --> 00:29:23.769
um and because it's a mass gathering in a city

00:29:23.769 --> 00:29:25.210
center of course the police are going to be there

00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:28.869
yeah so if you started whipping me in the middle

00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:31.089
of the street or if i started sucking your dick

00:29:31.089 --> 00:29:33.230
in the middle of the street we are going to jail

00:29:33.230 --> 00:29:37.690
um kink representation at pride isn't going to

00:29:37.690 --> 00:29:39.950
ever be things that you cannot do in that space

00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:42.549
it's going to be things that might shock might

00:29:42.549 --> 00:29:45.329
offend but it's not going to be things that actually

00:29:45.329 --> 00:29:48.410
expose people to sexual activity yeah because

00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:50.390
there's this weird thing about kind of bystander

00:29:50.390 --> 00:29:53.269
consent isn't there of like oh you i didn't consent

00:29:53.269 --> 00:29:56.630
to to see this and therefore it should be banned

00:29:56.630 --> 00:30:02.750
yeah and i and i it's just it's a really weird

00:30:02.750 --> 00:30:05.250
concept There's something in it for sure, but

00:30:05.250 --> 00:30:08.089
I think it's a very misused concept. So bystander

00:30:08.089 --> 00:30:10.450
consent is important to things like public nudity

00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:13.349
and sex acts. Yeah. If I go into the park and

00:30:13.349 --> 00:30:15.069
take all my clothes off and start masturbating,

00:30:15.150 --> 00:30:17.869
I am violating bystander consent because I am

00:30:17.869 --> 00:30:20.089
exposing people to a sex act and to an extent

00:30:20.089 --> 00:30:22.130
involving them in a sex act if part of what's

00:30:22.130 --> 00:30:25.250
getting me off is the non -consensual exhibitionism

00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:27.619
that I'm engaging in. That is a violation of

00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:30.500
bystander consent, but you don't consent to see

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:32.680
people wearing stuff you don't like or being

00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.859
in relationships you don't approve of or being

00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:37.740
a bit weird or being a bit uncomfortable. Yeah.

00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:40.539
I don't consent to seeing people wearing socks

00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:42.299
with sandals, but I still got to deal with it,

00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:46.400
you know? Yeah. Shit happens. Yeah, that is true.

00:30:47.180 --> 00:30:48.799
Because it's almost like that, where do you draw

00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:50.420
the line, isn't it? It's like, well, okay, well,

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:52.299
do we need to ban kind of any kind of public

00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:55.119
display of affection then? Yeah, and that's very

00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.579
much the criteria I use when I'm figuring out

00:30:57.579 --> 00:30:59.740
whether I feel like something feels ethical to

00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:02.400
me as far as public expressions of kinkiness

00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:05.160
or any kind of public play, for lack of a better

00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:08.759
term, fit, is if the vanilla equivalent would

00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.240
be a violation of consent, then it's not okay.

00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.539
Yeah. So having sex in a public place, not okay.

00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.940
So you beating me with a hammer in a public place

00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:21.160
that really turns me on, I'm putting on the same

00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.329
level as that. not okay um a vanilla person calling

00:31:25.329 --> 00:31:27.869
their partner babe or sweetie yeah absolutely

00:31:27.869 --> 00:31:30.529
fine so me calling you mix or you calling me

00:31:30.529 --> 00:31:34.829
baby boy yeah equally fine um a vanilla person

00:31:34.829 --> 00:31:36.529
wearing a wedding ring or an engagement ring

00:31:36.529 --> 00:31:38.950
absolutely fine so i'm gonna wear my fucking

00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:42.130
collar yeah yeah um a vanilla person wearing

00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:44.390
a fancy dress outfit because it makes them feel

00:31:44.390 --> 00:31:47.410
sexy or powerful or scary on halloween yeah absolutely

00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:50.440
fine That goes for puppets. That goes for walking

00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:53.339
someone around on a leash, in my view. It's playing

00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:55.799
dress up and putting yourself into a role because

00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.420
it makes you feel good. These things might...

00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:00.319
surprise people they might shock people they

00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:01.700
might cause people to have questions but they're

00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:04.740
not violating consent and part of the social

00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:07.000
contract of existing in a public space is sometimes

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.500
people are just going to aggravate you someone

00:32:09.500 --> 00:32:11.819
who hasn't had a shower in a couple of days gets

00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:15.359
on the bus not very nice yeah someone is talking

00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.099
loudly with their friend behind you in a queue

00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:19.920
in a shop and oversharing about their dating

00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:23.099
annoying not a violation of consent yeah like

00:32:23.099 --> 00:32:24.980
kinky people are allowed to be a bit annoying

00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:29.640
as well sometimes yeah yeah Which goes back to,

00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:33.160
that is the point of Pride. Yeah. Is to be a

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.500
little bit annoying. This might feel like a bit

00:32:35.500 --> 00:32:38.039
of a tangent. We love a tangent. Go for it. But

00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.539
it's such a weird comparison to draw between

00:32:40.539 --> 00:32:43.460
the Pride Mart, which in Newcastle currently

00:32:43.460 --> 00:32:46.339
starts at the Civic Centre, walks down one side

00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:48.519
of the City Centre, crosses the middle of the

00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:50.480
City Centre, and then comes back up the other

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.759
side. Rolling road closures, police everywhere,

00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:55.259
thousands and thousands of people thronging on

00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:56.900
the streets. And everybody's fine with that.

00:32:56.980 --> 00:32:59.519
But label it a... protest and everybody's suddenly

00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:03.819
mad about it yeah and you're like the one of

00:33:03.819 --> 00:33:06.119
those positions does not make sense and it's

00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.460
that that it is the idea of pride isn't just

00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:12.700
a nice little walk through the city center it

00:33:12.700 --> 00:33:16.559
is a protest march yeah that is what it is and

00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.339
yet everybody oh yeah the queers are out wandering

00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:22.619
it's just a really weird comparison to to make

00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:26.349
yeah It's kind of been defanged. Yeah, a little

00:33:26.349 --> 00:33:27.910
bit. And I think that's where a lot of the pressure

00:33:27.910 --> 00:33:30.769
from people within the queer community to sort

00:33:30.769 --> 00:33:33.470
of sanitise Pride and remove kink from it comes

00:33:33.470 --> 00:33:35.890
from is that desire to continue to defang Pride

00:33:35.890 --> 00:33:39.170
because they want... the acceptability. They

00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:41.970
want us to fully assimilate into straight culture.

00:33:43.009 --> 00:33:45.690
They want Pride to be just a little bit of fun

00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:47.670
with some rainbows and not think too hard about

00:33:47.670 --> 00:33:50.130
what it means. And if you have someone turning

00:33:50.130 --> 00:33:53.589
up in S &M gear or a block of people walking

00:33:53.589 --> 00:33:56.930
in all leather, you start remembering what Pride

00:33:56.930 --> 00:34:00.150
is about. It's about a protest defending our

00:34:00.150 --> 00:34:02.569
sexualities. It's about sexuality. It's about

00:34:02.569 --> 00:34:06.869
sex. And that's an uncomfortable topic, especially

00:34:06.869 --> 00:34:09.130
for the British. We don't talk about sex here.

00:34:09.409 --> 00:34:12.309
No. And they forget that a protest is supposed

00:34:12.309 --> 00:34:14.570
to be a little bit uncomfortable sometimes. Yeah.

00:34:14.670 --> 00:34:18.030
And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. You just imagine

00:34:18.030 --> 00:34:20.309
it, though, can't you? If all of the Pride merchandise

00:34:20.309 --> 00:34:22.949
and banners and stuff like that had sex is sex

00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:27.230
on it. Which is what they're saying. Yeah. Which

00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:29.849
is what the message is. But it's not the words

00:34:29.849 --> 00:34:32.590
that they use. You know, you'd just be fucking

00:34:32.590 --> 00:34:35.789
outraged, wouldn't they? Yeah. If you had Pride

00:34:35.789 --> 00:34:40.579
sex is sex. you know accurate yes but there would

00:34:40.579 --> 00:34:44.079
be outrage is there a weird little quirk in all

00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:47.800
of this going back to the idea that pride actually

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:51.440
is about sexuality and sex part of the queer

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:55.099
community are asexual people yeah and asexuals

00:34:55.099 --> 00:34:57.500
100 have a place at pride of course they do um

00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.570
and i think asexuals you know usually not with

00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:02.429
much of their involvement often get used as a

00:35:02.429 --> 00:35:03.829
scapegoat for why we need to get rid of kink

00:35:03.829 --> 00:35:06.190
at pride yeah but what about the asexuals they

00:35:06.190 --> 00:35:08.150
can't handle seeing this you know there are definitely

00:35:08.150 --> 00:35:10.250
asexuals who are sex repulsed and don't want

00:35:10.250 --> 00:35:12.829
to see people have sex hear a lot of detail about

00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:16.130
sex things like that but they are not these fragile

00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:19.889
innocents who don't know that sex exists just

00:35:19.889 --> 00:35:21.630
like anybody else they are capable of managing

00:35:21.630 --> 00:35:23.469
their own boundaries moving away from someone

00:35:23.469 --> 00:35:24.750
if they're having a conversation they don't want

00:35:24.750 --> 00:35:26.650
to hear things like that and i think what a lot

00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:29.590
of people forget is there are a fuck ton of asexuals

00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:31.889
in the kink community yeah because kink is a

00:35:31.889 --> 00:35:34.550
massive draw like again not to not to every asexual

00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:37.210
by any means but if you don't experience sexual

00:35:37.210 --> 00:35:39.429
attraction or you don't have an interest in sex

00:35:39.429 --> 00:35:41.530
which also isn't the case for all asexuals there

00:35:41.530 --> 00:35:43.630
are asexuals who do have sex they just it's the

00:35:43.630 --> 00:35:46.510
lack of attraction um but yeah if sex isn't as

00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:49.420
much of a focus for you or your primary draw

00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.960
to a partner isn't sexual attraction, alternative

00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.059
forms of intimacy and alternative kind of criteria

00:35:55.059 --> 00:35:57.079
for finding a partner based on your compatibility

00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:01.079
with what interests you can be very attractive

00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:03.039
for people. And I've met a lot of asexuals in

00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.780
the kink community because it gives them an alternative

00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:07.960
form of intimacy, which can be really valuable.

00:36:08.059 --> 00:36:09.840
And because the kink community is so accepting

00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.780
as well. You say to someone, I want you to come

00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:13.280
around and hit me, but I don't want to have sex.

00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.539
They'll be like, yeah, cool. The majority of

00:36:15.539 --> 00:36:19.559
the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same for aromantics.

00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.920
You say, like, I'm looking for people to do kinky

00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:23.940
play with. I want really close friends. I want

00:36:23.940 --> 00:36:26.099
maybe to have people that I have sex with, but

00:36:26.099 --> 00:36:28.639
I don't want a romantic relationship. A lot of

00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.159
people in the rest of the world would sort of

00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:32.820
look at you and go, but why? But in the kink

00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:34.380
community, people are like, yeah, those are your

00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:37.000
boundaries. Those are your limits. It's a much

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:40.219
more sort of fluid space. So a lot of asexuals

00:36:40.219 --> 00:36:42.500
and aromantics are really active within kink.

00:36:42.579 --> 00:36:44.380
And a lot of the people who are wanting to go.

00:36:44.670 --> 00:36:46.469
to pride and express their kinky identity will

00:36:46.469 --> 00:36:50.269
in fact be asexual yeah so it's it's not about

00:36:50.269 --> 00:36:53.010
protecting people it's about using them as a

00:36:53.010 --> 00:36:54.769
shield while also not actually doing very much

00:36:54.769 --> 00:36:56.809
to include them most of the time a lot of people

00:36:56.809 --> 00:36:59.150
will only mention asexuality when they want to

00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:01.389
use it to demonize sexuality not when they want

00:37:01.389 --> 00:37:03.469
to do anything for the asexual community yeah

00:37:03.469 --> 00:37:05.750
yeah true you're right there is that really strong

00:37:05.750 --> 00:37:08.449
parallel isn't it and it kind of echoes a similar

00:37:08.449 --> 00:37:10.630
sort of debate that we've had about like kink

00:37:10.630 --> 00:37:13.030
events about whether or not sex belongs at kink

00:37:13.030 --> 00:37:15.710
events yeah and the same arguments are kind of

00:37:15.710 --> 00:37:18.969
used i suppose it might be sometimes you talk

00:37:18.969 --> 00:37:21.530
about people being triggered by it for trauma

00:37:21.530 --> 00:37:23.889
related reasons yeah completely valid response

00:37:23.889 --> 00:37:27.570
if that is the experience you've had um they

00:37:27.570 --> 00:37:29.690
talk about asexual people people who don't experience

00:37:29.690 --> 00:37:31.570
sexual attraction won't make them feel uncomfortable

00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:37.269
and it's like do we know though do we know that

00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:39.550
that's the case yeah and for some people it might

00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:41.610
be but that's not a reason for everybody else

00:37:41.610 --> 00:37:45.550
to adapt to fit some kind of hypothetical problem

00:37:45.550 --> 00:37:48.869
yeah and there's a lot of ways that that could

00:37:48.869 --> 00:37:50.389
be managed if people don't want to be around

00:37:50.389 --> 00:37:52.590
expressions of sexuality there's a lot of ways

00:37:52.590 --> 00:37:54.769
that that can be managed without so get rid of

00:37:54.769 --> 00:37:57.329
it um you know newcastle pride i'm sure gets

00:37:57.329 --> 00:38:00.710
about 100 000 people attending yeah However welcoming

00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:02.989
of people expressing kink identities they are,

00:38:03.090 --> 00:38:04.750
you are never going to be in a position where

00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:06.809
every single space at Pride is full of people

00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.210
expressing kink, wearing loads of fetish wear,

00:38:09.369 --> 00:38:11.409
acting in their roles, things like that. It's

00:38:11.409 --> 00:38:14.030
a huge crowd. You can simply move away from the

00:38:14.030 --> 00:38:15.510
people that you don't vibe with and don't like

00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:17.530
what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. And same with

00:38:17.530 --> 00:38:19.530
kink events, unless a kink event is happening

00:38:19.530 --> 00:38:21.329
in a single tiny little room that everyone's

00:38:21.329 --> 00:38:24.610
crowded into. Yeah. If some people start having

00:38:24.610 --> 00:38:26.110
sex and you don't want to look at it, you can

00:38:26.110 --> 00:38:27.909
go to another room. It's okay. It's allowed.

00:38:28.170 --> 00:38:30.030
You can leave. It's free and the cops can't stop

00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:31.909
you. Yeah, you don't have to stay and watch it.

00:38:33.409 --> 00:38:35.349
Although, did you not have an experience at Pride

00:38:35.349 --> 00:38:37.550
where there were signs up saying no fetish wear

00:38:37.550 --> 00:38:40.309
in this area or something? Yes, Mix. So this

00:38:40.309 --> 00:38:42.690
made me so mad. And to be fair, it wasn't officially

00:38:42.690 --> 00:38:45.250
done by Pride. Right. It was revealed afterwards.

00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:48.809
So it was in... um there was a health and well

00:38:48.809 --> 00:38:50.469
-being zone and i was volunteering like with

00:38:50.469 --> 00:38:52.570
an organization there and when i went in to start

00:38:52.570 --> 00:38:55.090
my shift someone had put a handwritten sign on

00:38:55.090 --> 00:38:58.090
the outside of that zone saying a list of things

00:38:58.090 --> 00:39:00.309
that weren't allowed in there um no smoking don't

00:39:00.309 --> 00:39:02.409
bring alcohol in can't remember what else some

00:39:02.409 --> 00:39:04.210
fairly reasonable requests for a health and well

00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:06.269
-being zone yeah one of them was no fetish wear

00:39:06.269 --> 00:39:08.949
right and i was signed up for a volunteering

00:39:08.949 --> 00:39:13.130
slot wearing a latex crop top and a collar um

00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:15.630
so i was just sort of like well i'm going in

00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:17.429
and no one said anything like no one tried to

00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:21.449
enforce it um and i saw some of the newcastle

00:39:21.449 --> 00:39:23.250
leather men go in there not long after and it

00:39:23.250 --> 00:39:25.389
was like ah it's fine it's fine like no no one's

00:39:25.389 --> 00:39:27.289
doing anything about it but i took a picture

00:39:27.289 --> 00:39:29.730
of the sign and because i'm a pain in the arse

00:39:29.730 --> 00:39:32.570
and i had the the chair of pride at the time

00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:35.329
on my facebook friends list i posted it on facebook

00:39:35.329 --> 00:39:36.889
and tagged him and was like what's up with this

00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:40.469
can you explain yourself oh no oh no and to be

00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:42.190
fair he replied and was like that has not come

00:39:42.190 --> 00:39:44.230
from us that's not official i will look into

00:39:44.230 --> 00:39:48.590
it and and he got it taken down um but i sort

00:39:48.590 --> 00:39:50.619
of jumped on it and was like you need to be doing

00:39:50.619 --> 00:39:52.719
something about this more than just taking the

00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.860
sign down quietly like you need to find out where

00:39:54.860 --> 00:39:56.599
it came from make sure the person knows that's

00:39:56.599 --> 00:39:58.380
not acceptable and you need to be giving some

00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:00.420
kind of statement when you're organizing pride

00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:03.199
that you welcome all expressions of queer identity

00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.199
including like leather culture and other queer

00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:09.159
kink and fetish communities at pride and then

00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.760
he he just stopped responding oh no i guess i

00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:15.360
guess he didn't He didn't publish said statement.

00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.500
No, Mix, he did not. No. But at least the sign

00:40:18.500 --> 00:40:20.380
got taken down. So that's good. But I was quite

00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:23.880
annoyed about it. Yeah. I can well imagine knowing

00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:25.880
who you are as a person. Particularly for the

00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:27.940
health and wellbeing area as well. Yeah, yeah.

00:40:28.019 --> 00:40:29.760
It's like this is where people go in to get HIV

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.539
testing, to pick up free condoms, to get advice

00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:36.139
about their sexual health. There is stop smoking

00:40:36.139 --> 00:40:38.340
support in there. There are drug and alcohol

00:40:38.340 --> 00:40:40.599
services in there. There was a chem sex specific

00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:43.420
stall in there. Like this is exactly where the

00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:45.000
people who have got a really interesting sex

00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.179
life should be going. Yeah. Because there's a

00:40:47.179 --> 00:40:49.079
lot of information in there that could be relevant

00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:51.900
to their particular risks and their needs. Yeah.

00:40:51.980 --> 00:40:54.539
especially chem sex because that is that is part

00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:57.940
of kink yeah yeah absolutely and particularly

00:40:57.940 --> 00:41:00.099
like this was when pride wasn't in the city center

00:41:00.099 --> 00:41:02.900
this has been it was up on on a big field um

00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:05.079
the clothes you're wearing at pride tend to be

00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.239
the clothes you have it's not like you can just

00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:10.139
take them off get changed um i don't think they

00:41:10.139 --> 00:41:11.659
would have liked you wandering in naked either

00:41:11.659 --> 00:41:13.920
so there was nothing else that people could do

00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.380
apart from either ignore the sign or stay out

00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:18.079
of a zone that they really needed to have access

00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:22.380
to yeah so that was not okay yeah Ridiculous.

00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:24.179
And I believe there have been prides that have

00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:27.500
attempted to ban fetish wear. And again, it often

00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:29.760
comes from that place of conflating it with nudity

00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.800
and sex acts. They're like, you can't wear something

00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:34.679
here that is sort of sexualized clothing. Yeah.

00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:36.380
It's like, how do you define that? Are you going

00:41:36.380 --> 00:41:37.900
to say the same thing to the twink in the booty

00:41:37.900 --> 00:41:41.699
shorts? Yeah. Like people wear stuff they feel

00:41:41.699 --> 00:41:43.820
sexy in at pride. Yeah. Regardless of whether

00:41:43.820 --> 00:41:46.940
they're kinky or not. And it fails the test because

00:41:46.940 --> 00:41:49.260
you wander down the big market on a Saturday

00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:52.619
night. there will be people wearing outfits which

00:41:52.619 --> 00:41:55.480
are designed to make them feel sexy and look

00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:59.199
sexy as well. Yeah. That's what people do. Yeah,

00:41:59.300 --> 00:42:01.940
absolutely. It's like a false equivalence, isn't

00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:04.099
it? Yeah. Like, well, that version of sexy is

00:42:04.099 --> 00:42:06.659
okay, but that one isn't. Yeah, and you don't

00:42:06.659 --> 00:42:08.099
really see anywhere near the level of criticism

00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:10.199
of that at Pride. Like, there will be a lot of,

00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:11.960
I sort of joke about twinks in booty shorts,

00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:13.699
but my God, you will see a lot of twinks in booty

00:42:13.699 --> 00:42:15.800
shorts. Of course you will. Lots of guys walking

00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.809
around shirtless. Yeah, absolutely. Like lots

00:42:19.809 --> 00:42:22.269
of people displaying their bodies in ways that

00:42:22.269 --> 00:42:24.789
make them feel sexy and confident and attract

00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:28.170
sexual attention. People who are actively there

00:42:28.170 --> 00:42:30.329
on the pole, people who just want to show off.

00:42:30.590 --> 00:42:34.030
Like people are dressing in provocative and sexualized

00:42:34.030 --> 00:42:37.389
ways. And unless they're actually naked, no one

00:42:37.389 --> 00:42:39.829
goes after them in the same way as they do for

00:42:39.829 --> 00:42:41.469
someone who's actually pretty modestly dressed

00:42:41.469 --> 00:42:46.900
in latex. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree. I think

00:42:46.900 --> 00:42:48.880
the other thing that often gets people's backs

00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.679
up and why people can be a little bit funny about

00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:54.500
kink at Pride is people have a real fear of people

00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:57.539
conflating kink and queer identities into the

00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.780
same thing. And that extends to poly to a large

00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:03.269
extent as well, like polyamory. Right. Because

00:43:03.269 --> 00:43:05.809
there are various sort of kink related pride

00:43:05.809 --> 00:43:08.369
flags. There's like a rubber one. There's a general

00:43:08.369 --> 00:43:12.010
BDSM one. There's a leather pride flag. Polly

00:43:12.010 --> 00:43:13.869
community have their own pride flag. People get

00:43:13.869 --> 00:43:15.730
their backs up about that a lot as well, saying

00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:18.190
that this means that people are trying to make

00:43:18.190 --> 00:43:20.989
that part of the LGBTQIA+. It's like, are we

00:43:20.989 --> 00:43:22.969
putting a K in there? Are we putting a P in there

00:43:22.969 --> 00:43:27.059
for Polly as well? And I think it's quite rare

00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:28.900
that you will find kinky people or poly people

00:43:28.900 --> 00:43:30.980
saying like, no, this counts as queer. This in

00:43:30.980 --> 00:43:33.880
itself makes me queer. What you will find is

00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.719
people saying we are all communities that are

00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.420
being marginalized on the basis of our perceived

00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:42.400
deviance and on the basis of how we have sex

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.679
and how we conduct our relationships. So that

00:43:44.679 --> 00:43:46.639
gives us some things in common. And we could

00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:49.400
support each other. I think kinky people and

00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:51.539
poly people could learn a lot from how the queer

00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:53.380
community has gone about fighting for their rights.

00:43:53.719 --> 00:43:55.420
And it's often one of my frustrations in kink

00:43:55.420 --> 00:43:58.780
community that a lot of people don't learn those

00:43:58.780 --> 00:44:00.420
lessons. And they're like, none of us should

00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:02.059
come out because it's dangerous. It's like, that's

00:44:02.059 --> 00:44:03.840
exactly why we need more people to come out.

00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:09.900
There are people who... who are sort of learning

00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:11.880
those lessons and are having more fulfilled lives

00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:14.179
because of it and gaining progress for our communities

00:44:14.179 --> 00:44:17.099
because of it and recognizing where a lot of

00:44:17.099 --> 00:44:19.119
the hatred that is directed at queer people and

00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.579
kinky people and poly people all comes from is

00:44:21.579 --> 00:44:25.230
from conservativism and purity culture and misogyny

00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:27.809
and oppositional sexism the idea that men and

00:44:27.809 --> 00:44:29.769
women are opposites and this needs to be enforced

00:44:29.769 --> 00:44:33.150
through threat and oppression yeah um all of

00:44:33.150 --> 00:44:34.769
us are being screwed over by that exact same

00:44:34.769 --> 00:44:36.849
system and we are a lot stronger together than

00:44:36.849 --> 00:44:38.869
we are separate that doesn't mean that there

00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:41.929
needs to be a k in the lgbt yeah but it means

00:44:41.929 --> 00:44:44.469
that maybe we can be their weird cousin and hang

00:44:44.469 --> 00:44:53.119
out yeah yeah Yeah, the weird little gremlin

00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:55.480
in a collar and on a leash in the corner. Yeah,

00:44:56.179 --> 00:44:59.380
they're with us. Yeah. And there's so much crossover

00:44:59.380 --> 00:45:01.659
as well. Like, there are people who are in one

00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:04.320
of those three groups and not the others, 100%.

00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.449
But... So many people I've met take all three

00:45:07.449 --> 00:45:09.769
boxes, queer, kinky, poly, or some form of non

00:45:09.769 --> 00:45:11.909
-monogamous. There is so much overlap between

00:45:11.909 --> 00:45:14.789
the three. And keeping the communities miles

00:45:14.789 --> 00:45:17.389
apart so that we don't get any kind of dirt rubbing

00:45:17.389 --> 00:45:20.289
off on us by association is just throwing those

00:45:20.289 --> 00:45:21.909
people under the bus where they're having to

00:45:21.909 --> 00:45:24.070
sort of put on different masks to hang out with

00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:26.010
their non -monogamous friends, their queer friends,

00:45:26.190 --> 00:45:27.849
and then their kinky friends. Yeah, yeah. Instead

00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.960
of going, no, like... We have some overlap. Let's

00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:33.079
respect that. Let's recognise it. Let's celebrate

00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:35.860
it. And let's all get on. Yeah. While still allowing

00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:38.619
people to say, yeah, I'm queer and poly, but

00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:40.719
none of the bondage shit for me, thanks. Yeah,

00:45:40.780 --> 00:45:43.000
yeah. People can opt out, but it shouldn't be

00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.940
so hard to opt in. No, you're right. And let's

00:45:45.940 --> 00:45:48.280
be honest. Some of the best people are queer,

00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.119
kinky, non -monogamous, neurodivergent people.

00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:53.920
Yeah. They are generally my favourite people.

00:45:53.980 --> 00:45:57.940
Yeah. They're mint. So I had lots to say about

00:45:57.940 --> 00:46:00.429
that. But something I skimmed over a little bit

00:46:00.429 --> 00:46:02.769
is I acknowledge there is a place for children

00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:05.449
and young people at Pride. Yes. And then we started

00:46:05.449 --> 00:46:07.130
talking about how great it is that there's loads

00:46:07.130 --> 00:46:10.110
of openly, proudly sexual deviant behaviour going

00:46:10.110 --> 00:46:13.110
on at Pride. So that seems like a tricky balance

00:46:13.110 --> 00:46:15.250
to get right. So what about the kids mix? Well,

00:46:15.289 --> 00:46:19.900
what about the kids? Leave them at home. is my

00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:22.460
general response to any question about children,

00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.340
to be fair. You can see that this is a podcast

00:46:25.340 --> 00:46:27.940
with one vasectomy and one tubal ligation here.

00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:31.179
Yeah, yeah. Other people's kids are fine. I just

00:46:31.179 --> 00:46:34.639
don't want one in my house. Yeah. A bit like

00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:40.659
dogs. No, the dog lovers will come for you. I

00:46:40.659 --> 00:46:43.059
don't have anything against dogs. I just don't

00:46:43.059 --> 00:46:48.860
want them in my house. I think it is a... as

00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:52.320
we jest yes but it is a it is a really it is

00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.320
a really important thing to think about and i

00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:57.320
i have to confess that as much as i agree with

00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.840
every single thing that you have just said about

00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.860
kink at pride i think absolutely think all of

00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:05.900
the communities that we've talked about belong

00:47:05.900 --> 00:47:09.739
not just belong at pride but should be celebrated

00:47:09.739 --> 00:47:14.010
and elevated at pride I can imagine that it is

00:47:14.010 --> 00:47:16.650
an absolute fucking nightmare for the people

00:47:16.650 --> 00:47:19.050
who organise Pride to get that balance right.

00:47:19.389 --> 00:47:22.349
Because whether we like it or not, it has moved

00:47:22.349 --> 00:47:24.869
away from being the protest that it started as.

00:47:25.010 --> 00:47:28.070
It is marketing itself as a more family friendly

00:47:28.070 --> 00:47:30.969
environment, which is a good thing because a

00:47:30.969 --> 00:47:34.030
lot of kids are queer. Yeah. You know. And a

00:47:34.030 --> 00:47:35.610
lot of queer people have kids. And a lot of queer

00:47:35.610 --> 00:47:38.010
people have kids. So they need a place where

00:47:38.010 --> 00:47:41.250
they can do that together. Yeah. So I can really

00:47:41.250 --> 00:47:47.619
see. the the tension in in all of that of how

00:47:47.619 --> 00:47:50.000
do you get that balance right and i think the

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:54.519
mistake that we make is by making that pride's

00:47:54.519 --> 00:48:01.380
problem to solve in a way i think pride's pride

00:48:01.380 --> 00:48:04.320
the organization has a job to create a space

00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:08.260
where everybody feels welcome, that is inclusive,

00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:12.179
that is supportive and celebratory and what it

00:48:12.179 --> 00:48:14.360
doesn't do quite so much and carries the message

00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:17.400
of what Pride is about. Yeah. The people who

00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:20.460
attend Pride have a responsibility about how

00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:25.280
they act in that space. So just as we said that

00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:28.639
kinky queer people who attend Pride have a responsibility

00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:33.280
not to peg their partner on Northumberland Street.

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:37.860
i think that's valid yeah yeah i have a responsibility

00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:40.719
not to grab you by the throat and start slapping

00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.320
you around on um percy street yeah outside the

00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.920
civic center you know that's my responsibility

00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:49.380
as a kinky queer person there is a responsibility

00:48:49.380 --> 00:48:52.440
on the people who aren't part of the kinky community

00:48:52.440 --> 00:48:55.139
to manage themselves a little bit and go well

00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:57.300
i'm gonna see some stuff today because i'm a

00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:01.320
pride So I'm going to see some stuff today. But

00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:02.980
also, if we're thinking about the kids, there's

00:49:02.980 --> 00:49:05.619
a responsibility on the people who are with those

00:49:05.619 --> 00:49:08.300
kids to have a conversation about it and not

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:11.260
go to outrage about it. So if someone wanders

00:49:11.260 --> 00:49:14.300
past, you know, you gave the example earlier

00:49:14.300 --> 00:49:17.019
on, you know, kind of people in latex and pop

00:49:17.019 --> 00:49:21.139
hoods. I saw tons of those as part of the march

00:49:21.139 --> 00:49:24.380
last year. Someone walks past and a child goes,

00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:27.179
what's that about? I go, well, they're playing

00:49:27.179 --> 00:49:30.360
dress up. because it makes them feel good and

00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.619
they're happy and they're enjoying themselves

00:49:32.619 --> 00:49:35.960
and they're expressing their identity and stuff

00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:41.559
like that I think sometimes we kind of this is

00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:43.139
going to sound silly because we're talking about

00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:47.199
children we infantilize children no i fully get

00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:49.599
you and i agree we assume that they can't handle

00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:51.659
having any answers to their questions well actually

00:49:51.659 --> 00:49:53.139
if they're asking the questions they're probably

00:49:53.139 --> 00:49:55.699
ready to hear at least some version of the answer

00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:57.940
it doesn't need to be the the full ins and outs

00:49:57.940 --> 00:49:59.940
of oh you've asked why that guy's wearing all

00:49:59.940 --> 00:50:01.639
leather i'm going to tell you the entire history

00:50:01.639 --> 00:50:03.280
of the leather community and everything that

00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:05.340
they might get up and up to in the bedroom yeah

00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.599
that's not the answer the child needs yeah but

00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:10.099
telling the child yeah like some parts of the

00:50:10.099 --> 00:50:14.440
gay community um really have this sense of unity

00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.420
and they all like to dress in this way so they

00:50:16.420 --> 00:50:18.440
can recognize each other and they really like

00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:20.320
these kind of textures of fabrics and that makes

00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.300
them feel good yeah fine that'll do a bit like

00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:26.000
when we go to scouts then you know it's that

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.679
sort of vibe to it of and i think you know at

00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.719
the same time we run the risk of infantilizing

00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.849
children which still feels like an oxymoron.

00:50:34.510 --> 00:50:37.369
They're also children and children will accept

00:50:37.369 --> 00:50:39.710
the reality with which they are presented. Yeah.

00:50:40.309 --> 00:50:42.389
So if we just say, yeah, that's what some people

00:50:42.389 --> 00:50:44.710
do and they're having a good time and they're

00:50:44.710 --> 00:50:46.670
not hurting anybody and it's fine. They're not

00:50:46.670 --> 00:50:49.469
going to be like, no, that's an outrage and pride.

00:50:49.929 --> 00:50:52.010
They're going to be like, all right. Yeah. Can

00:50:52.010 --> 00:50:56.309
I have an ice cream? You know? Yeah. We kind

00:50:56.309 --> 00:50:58.710
of overcomplicate it a lot of the time and we

00:50:58.710 --> 00:51:00.969
pass off the responsibility to other people.

00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.699
it's like kink doesn't belong at pride pride

00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:06.860
should do something about that no you need to

00:51:06.860 --> 00:51:09.460
do something about your own opinion and if your

00:51:09.460 --> 00:51:11.500
kids are asking questions you need to answer

00:51:11.500 --> 00:51:14.090
them yeah I think as well, there's an element

00:51:14.090 --> 00:51:16.150
of, you can definitely answer questions that

00:51:16.150 --> 00:51:17.809
kids would have about pretty much any expression

00:51:17.809 --> 00:51:21.090
of kink at Pride without discussing sex at all,

00:51:21.130 --> 00:51:23.550
because a lot of it is not sexual or not overtly

00:51:23.550 --> 00:51:26.690
sexual. But also, I think if you're going to

00:51:26.690 --> 00:51:30.050
take your kids to a celebration of sexuality

00:51:30.050 --> 00:51:34.650
and sexual diversity, you have to make your peace

00:51:34.650 --> 00:51:36.610
with having some conversations that might touch

00:51:36.610 --> 00:51:38.469
on sex a little bit at some point. Yeah, yeah.

00:51:38.530 --> 00:51:40.429
Because that's kind of the point. Again, it doesn't

00:51:40.429 --> 00:51:42.579
need to be anything that is like age and... inappropriate

00:51:42.579 --> 00:51:45.599
and really sexually explicit but acknowledging

00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.820
that the reason that these events exist is because

00:51:47.820 --> 00:51:51.039
sexuality was criminalized and discriminated

00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:53.039
against and people were subject to violence because

00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:56.139
of their sexuality again love is really important

00:51:56.139 --> 00:51:58.599
we love marriage equality but that is not what

00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:00.480
pride started for pride started because people

00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:02.079
couldn't go out and find someone to have sex

00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:04.420
with without being beaten half to death by cops

00:52:04.420 --> 00:52:08.039
yeah that's why we have pride um and you maybe

00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:09.480
don't need to say it in those terms to a kid

00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:13.039
No. But talking about the fact that, you know,

00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:14.460
once kids are old enough to have any level of

00:52:14.460 --> 00:52:16.019
sex education, they know that that's a thing

00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:18.699
adults do. And acknowledging that pride is about

00:52:18.699 --> 00:52:22.000
the right for people to experience that with

00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.599
the people that they care about and that they

00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:25.480
find attractive, not the people that society

00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:27.619
says they should, is an important conversation

00:52:27.619 --> 00:52:30.599
to have. Yeah, I totally agree. And you kind

00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:32.199
of put yourself in the position of the queer

00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:34.400
kids who are there and the risk of the negative

00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:39.599
reaction to people who are visibly kinky. not

00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.400
doing kinky things but just being visibly kinky

00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:46.900
that negative reaction to that group of people

00:52:46.900 --> 00:52:48.980
that queer is that queer kid gonna sit there

00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:51.820
and go well if you think that about that group

00:52:51.820 --> 00:52:53.960
of deviants who are represented at pride what

00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:57.119
do you think about me yeah kind of thing there's

00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:59.199
that risk that it starts to rub off and actually

00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:03.019
you start the the queer kids start to shrink

00:53:03.019 --> 00:53:06.480
into themselves yeah a little bit it's like you

00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.219
can you can be gay but don't be a Don't be that

00:53:09.219 --> 00:53:12.239
kind of queer. Yeah. It's very much the vibe.

00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:14.260
And you do get that from a lot of people who

00:53:14.260 --> 00:53:18.139
have LGBT kids where they're like, I'm fine with

00:53:18.139 --> 00:53:20.440
my son growing up and getting married to a man

00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:22.380
and adopting two children and they get a dog.

00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:24.860
But I don't want him going to Pride and taking

00:53:24.860 --> 00:53:26.519
his shirt off and wearing the tiny little hot

00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:28.860
pants. I don't want him wearing leather. I don't

00:53:28.860 --> 00:53:30.679
want him going to a gay bar and hooking up with

00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.849
four guys in the toilets. It's like... I know

00:53:32.849 --> 00:53:34.050
you don't want to think about your kid in that

00:53:34.050 --> 00:53:36.690
situation, but if you can't accept your kid exploring

00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:38.389
themselves in the ways that feel authentic to

00:53:38.389 --> 00:53:39.869
them, all you're doing is putting up a wall between

00:53:39.869 --> 00:53:42.170
you. Yeah. When they're an adult. I'm not saying

00:53:42.170 --> 00:53:43.730
they should go do all those things when they're

00:53:43.730 --> 00:53:46.769
14. No. But at some point in their life, they

00:53:46.769 --> 00:53:48.489
probably are going to do some of those things.

00:53:48.610 --> 00:53:51.670
Yeah, yeah. And you have to let go. Yeah. No,

00:53:51.769 --> 00:53:56.250
I agree. I agree. One of the solutions that Pride

00:53:56.250 --> 00:53:58.969
seems to have come up with is the concept of

00:53:58.969 --> 00:54:02.750
family zones. Yeah. and how do you how does that

00:54:02.750 --> 00:54:05.210
sit with with you there's there's a lot of good

00:54:05.210 --> 00:54:07.369
ideas in it i think especially if you're a family

00:54:07.369 --> 00:54:10.329
taking young kids they can get really burned

00:54:10.329 --> 00:54:12.409
out by how loud and busy pride is really quickly

00:54:12.409 --> 00:54:15.150
and neurodivergent kids as well so family zones

00:54:15.150 --> 00:54:17.110
often double as a bit of a quiet zone and they'll

00:54:17.110 --> 00:54:19.170
sometimes have a quiet zone as well but the family

00:54:19.170 --> 00:54:22.289
zone will often have less like loud music and

00:54:22.289 --> 00:54:25.309
crowds and stuff in it um kids being able to

00:54:25.309 --> 00:54:28.269
do activities and meet other children there can

00:54:28.269 --> 00:54:32.150
be really good and i think how do i feel about

00:54:32.150 --> 00:54:34.750
if they were to completely ban any visible fetish

00:54:34.750 --> 00:54:37.409
wear from those areas i think that's where it

00:54:37.409 --> 00:54:40.190
gets into a gray area i think a parent who wears

00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:42.510
an eternity collar should be allowed in yeah

00:54:42.510 --> 00:54:45.530
i don't think it's necessarily super helpful

00:54:45.530 --> 00:54:48.449
for someone wearing tiny little latex thong and

00:54:48.449 --> 00:54:51.280
not much else to be going in there yeah there's

00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.119
maybe a bit of a common sense that needs to apply

00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:54.820
here it's true are you in here for the right

00:54:54.820 --> 00:54:56.219
reasons or are you just trying to be shocking

00:54:56.219 --> 00:54:58.280
and i don't think many people would push that

00:54:58.280 --> 00:55:01.920
i think most kinky people are so we are so conscious

00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:03.940
of the fact that people act like we're a threat

00:55:03.940 --> 00:55:07.159
to children by default like yeah yeah no one's

00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:08.800
going to be going around and making a spectacle

00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:11.260
of themselves in the family zone yeah if there's

00:55:11.260 --> 00:55:13.019
someone wearing some subtle fetish wear in there

00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:14.360
they're probably in there because they're a parent

00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.849
or carer yeah and i suppose that's Where my head

00:55:17.849 --> 00:55:19.230
was going as well is where would you draw the

00:55:19.230 --> 00:55:22.090
line with that? It's like, leather men have kids

00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:24.829
too. Yeah. And they're not going to go to Pride.

00:55:24.949 --> 00:55:27.690
They're not going to turn up at Pride not in

00:55:27.690 --> 00:55:31.409
full leather. Probably not, no. Because that's

00:55:31.409 --> 00:55:34.929
what they do. Yeah. You know? So I think you're

00:55:34.929 --> 00:55:36.829
right. I think there has to be a common sense

00:55:36.829 --> 00:55:39.929
approach to it. But it would be really easy,

00:55:39.969 --> 00:55:41.909
wouldn't it, to draw the line in the wrong place?

00:55:42.210 --> 00:55:44.469
Yeah. A bit like the sign at the health and wellbeing

00:55:44.469 --> 00:55:47.610
zone which said... you know no fetish wear well

00:55:47.610 --> 00:55:50.530
that that rules out every single member of the

00:55:50.530 --> 00:55:52.570
leather community then doesn't it yeah really

00:55:52.570 --> 00:55:56.230
is that is that the message is that the message

00:55:56.230 --> 00:55:58.369
we want to send yeah and i think that's where

00:55:58.369 --> 00:56:00.769
clarity and education are so important because

00:56:00.769 --> 00:56:02.710
if people don't understand anything about the

00:56:02.710 --> 00:56:05.190
various intersecting kink and fetish communities

00:56:05.190 --> 00:56:08.289
then in their head the person who gets fisted

00:56:08.289 --> 00:56:10.090
in the middle of the street is the same person

00:56:10.090 --> 00:56:12.130
as the person who's wearing a subtle collar yeah

00:56:12.130 --> 00:56:14.190
and they are not those are not the same behaviors

00:56:14.190 --> 00:56:15.730
they don't need to be managed in the same way

00:56:16.010 --> 00:56:18.829
um there is a huge spectrum of different things

00:56:18.829 --> 00:56:20.349
and if people don't know about that spectrum

00:56:20.349 --> 00:56:21.909
they are just going to stick up a sign that says

00:56:21.909 --> 00:56:24.309
no fetish wear where actually they might say

00:56:24.309 --> 00:56:27.590
um we don't want kind of excessive skin exposure

00:56:27.590 --> 00:56:29.630
in the family zone don't come in here in your

00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:33.119
tiny, tiny, skimpy little outfit. We don't want

00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.699
anything with sexualized slogans on it. We don't

00:56:35.699 --> 00:56:38.739
want anything that is scary to children. So maybe

00:56:38.739 --> 00:56:40.420
you don't come in with like gas masks on, for

00:56:40.420 --> 00:56:43.599
example. But if you are wearing a collar, if

00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:45.880
you're wearing some leather, if you're wearing

00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:48.059
like latex leggings or whatever, that's fine

00:56:48.059 --> 00:56:49.880
because they're just clothes. Yeah. They're just

00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:52.199
alternative clothes at that point. Yeah. And

00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:53.699
I suppose it's common sense in both directions,

00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.500
isn't it? It's common sense expectations of the

00:56:56.500 --> 00:56:58.510
people who are running the family sign. but also

00:56:58.510 --> 00:57:00.190
a common sense response from the people who were

00:57:00.190 --> 00:57:03.829
there. Yeah. Because you're right. Even if you

00:57:03.829 --> 00:57:06.130
are a parent, I suppose, if you wander into the

00:57:06.130 --> 00:57:08.530
family's home in a tiny little thong and a pup

00:57:08.530 --> 00:57:11.630
hood, you kind of have to wonder what the motivation

00:57:11.630 --> 00:57:14.690
for that might be. Yeah, if you're taking your

00:57:14.690 --> 00:57:16.610
kids to Pride, maybe you do need to tone it down

00:57:16.610 --> 00:57:18.250
a little bit so that you can hang out with them

00:57:18.250 --> 00:57:21.289
appropriately. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like...

00:57:21.769 --> 00:57:23.449
It's thinking about the kind of pride experience

00:57:23.449 --> 00:57:26.030
you want to have and dressing appropriately to

00:57:26.030 --> 00:57:27.550
the experience you want to have and accepting

00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:29.110
that that might shut you out of some experiences.

00:57:29.570 --> 00:57:32.269
So, for example, a lot of the people that I know

00:57:32.269 --> 00:57:35.309
through the LGBT network at my job go to pride

00:57:35.309 --> 00:57:37.349
together representing the business. Now, that's

00:57:37.349 --> 00:57:38.789
not something I personally want to do anyway,

00:57:38.849 --> 00:57:41.389
because I'm not a big fan of sort of going representing

00:57:41.389 --> 00:57:43.110
your employer at pride. That kind of corporate

00:57:43.110 --> 00:57:45.829
pride thing just isn't for me. Yeah. But if it

00:57:45.829 --> 00:57:48.429
wasn't for. What I get from Pride and what I

00:57:48.429 --> 00:57:50.449
go to Pride to get from Pride. I would probably

00:57:50.449 --> 00:57:52.429
meet up with them for a little bit. Like, not

00:57:52.429 --> 00:57:54.210
march with them, but hang out with them a bit

00:57:54.210 --> 00:57:57.190
on the day. As it is, like, I don't want the

00:57:57.190 --> 00:57:59.210
pressure of having to look good representing

00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:01.869
my employer at Pride. So I don't mix. I don't

00:58:01.869 --> 00:58:04.349
blur those lines. Yeah, yeah. If I was a parent,

00:58:04.429 --> 00:58:06.389
I would have some decisions to make about, okay,

00:58:06.409 --> 00:58:08.170
this means if I'm taking my kids to Pride and

00:58:08.170 --> 00:58:10.469
taking them into the family zone, I maybe don't

00:58:10.469 --> 00:58:13.250
get to really fly my freak flag today. I've got

00:58:13.250 --> 00:58:15.079
to, like, just... tone it down just a little

00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:17.579
bit yeah um and that's the decision that you

00:58:17.579 --> 00:58:19.659
make and you you have some responsibility for

00:58:19.659 --> 00:58:22.599
that yeah i think that's i think that's totally

00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.900
fair i i do think it's a little bit of a shame

00:58:25.900 --> 00:58:27.539
though because i would have loved to have seen

00:58:27.539 --> 00:58:29.639
the look on the senior person's face when you

00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.769
turned up in your pig harness and tiny little

00:58:32.769 --> 00:58:35.349
shorts last year. That would have been massively

00:58:35.349 --> 00:58:38.690
entertaining. It would. I mean, my employer is

00:58:38.690 --> 00:58:41.230
very supportive and very open to a lot of the

00:58:41.230 --> 00:58:42.769
things I do, but I think that might be where

00:58:42.769 --> 00:58:44.210
they'd drawn the line. If I turned up and was

00:58:44.210 --> 00:58:46.329
like, can I hold the banner with the logo on?

00:58:46.449 --> 00:58:49.449
They'd be like, no, not in that. No, please.

00:58:52.130 --> 00:58:57.829
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I've only ever

00:58:57.829 --> 00:59:00.829
been to two Prides, but I think I have a similar

00:59:00.829 --> 00:59:03.809
sort of perspective on it as well. I work for

00:59:03.809 --> 00:59:05.389
a very different employer in a very different

00:59:05.389 --> 00:59:07.730
sector to you, but I would feel really uneasy

00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:10.349
even going as I do, which is relatively tame.

00:59:10.570 --> 00:59:14.190
Yeah. I don't really fly my freak flag when I

00:59:14.190 --> 00:59:16.869
go to Pride, but I would feel a little bit uneasy

00:59:16.869 --> 00:59:19.710
about marching with my employer at Pride because

00:59:19.710 --> 00:59:22.590
that's not what it's about for me. Yeah. I work

00:59:22.590 --> 00:59:24.250
in a sector where I think there is probably a

00:59:24.250 --> 00:59:29.579
little bit less. the motivation for it is probably

00:59:29.579 --> 00:59:33.360
a little bit less kind of queer washing than

00:59:33.360 --> 00:59:35.599
some of the other companies that go there yeah

00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:38.239
so i think there is genuinely that pride in diversity

00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:40.739
and supporting kind of queer members of our workforce

00:59:40.739 --> 00:59:42.599
i think that is probably coming from a more good

00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:44.940
place yeah it's for some of the others but it

00:59:44.940 --> 00:59:47.079
still makes me feel uneasy to do it yeah there's

00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:49.599
always an interesting sort of There's two motivations

00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:51.619
going on, I think, a lot of the time, where the

00:59:51.619 --> 00:59:53.800
motivation of the company for encouraging that

00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:55.780
happening and sending loads of branded stuff

00:59:55.780 --> 00:59:58.099
and creating loads of sort of freebies that people

00:59:58.099 --> 01:00:00.000
can give out on Pride and stuff is absolutely,

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:01.820
it's a PR move. And that doesn't mean they don't

01:00:01.820 --> 01:00:03.699
care. There's still individuals high up in big

01:00:03.699 --> 01:00:05.760
companies who probably do really care and might

01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:08.960
even be LGBT themselves. But no company does

01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:11.119
anything that isn't profitable. And that's why

01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:12.579
they're doing it. The people who actually march

01:00:12.579 --> 01:00:15.309
representing the company often... and my experience

01:00:15.309 --> 01:00:17.849
within sort of big corporations, is it is almost

01:00:17.849 --> 01:00:20.610
exclusively LGBT people who are really active

01:00:20.610 --> 01:00:22.949
within things like staff networks, providing

01:00:22.949 --> 01:00:25.190
support to staff, things like that. And they

01:00:25.190 --> 01:00:27.750
want to show pride in what they do within their

01:00:27.750 --> 01:00:30.550
employer. Yeah. The hard work they put in above

01:00:30.550 --> 01:00:32.909
and beyond their day job to support sometimes

01:00:32.909 --> 01:00:34.909
quite vulnerable people within the workforce.

01:00:35.710 --> 01:00:38.469
And I really, I understand that. And I've had

01:00:38.469 --> 01:00:40.190
my perspective shifted a little bit on corporate

01:00:40.190 --> 01:00:41.889
pride because I used to be very much like, no,

01:00:42.010 --> 01:00:44.519
that is... bad and stupid and i can't get on

01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:46.619
board with it and then i got involved in in a

01:00:46.619 --> 01:00:49.360
staff network and realized how passionate some

01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:51.179
of my colleagues are about that for completely

01:00:51.179 --> 01:00:53.420
the right reasons yeah so even though it's not

01:00:53.420 --> 01:00:55.219
something i want to participate in myself i'm

01:00:55.219 --> 01:00:57.360
a bit less cynical about it than i used to be

01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:00.539
yeah um i don't like it when it overrides pride

01:01:00.539 --> 01:01:03.460
so when pride is so heavily sponsored that the

01:01:03.460 --> 01:01:04.900
first thing you see at the front of the march

01:01:04.900 --> 01:01:07.000
and the first thing you see on every post that

01:01:07.000 --> 01:01:09.340
i make is some corporate sponsor it's like you

01:01:09.340 --> 01:01:10.920
need to learn when to say no to your sponsors

01:01:11.530 --> 01:01:15.769
yeah but a certain amount of it i think is an

01:01:15.769 --> 01:01:18.869
inevitable part of the way that lgbt rights have

01:01:18.869 --> 01:01:20.690
moved forward and we've become more accepted

01:01:20.690 --> 01:01:23.590
is now showing support to us is something that

01:01:23.590 --> 01:01:25.429
is in company's favor not detriment and that

01:01:25.429 --> 01:01:27.349
is something to celebrate regardless of some

01:01:27.349 --> 01:01:29.269
of the stuff that goes around it like yeah yeah

01:01:29.269 --> 01:01:32.829
that is good um and people being able to celebrate

01:01:32.829 --> 01:01:35.250
positive stuff they're doing for lgbt people

01:01:35.250 --> 01:01:38.309
within their work is really good i think we should

01:01:38.309 --> 01:01:39.909
always stay a little bit cynical though because

01:01:39.909 --> 01:01:42.050
we know that the vast majority of these companies

01:01:42.050 --> 01:01:44.670
would disappear the second it started costing

01:01:44.670 --> 01:01:46.750
them rather than gaining for them yeah of course

01:01:46.750 --> 01:01:48.969
they would and and several already have there

01:01:48.969 --> 01:01:50.849
are companies that used to be major sponsors

01:01:50.849 --> 01:01:52.929
of many many prides that have now pulled out

01:01:52.929 --> 01:01:56.110
of them because of the decisions that they have

01:01:56.110 --> 01:01:59.170
made regarding trans staff for example yeah which

01:01:59.170 --> 01:02:00.809
has made them either no longer welcome at pride

01:02:00.809 --> 01:02:02.809
or attracted a lot of heat and criticism to them

01:02:02.809 --> 01:02:04.429
when they go to pride so they simply pulled their

01:02:04.429 --> 01:02:07.329
money and walked yeah yeah yeah which should

01:02:07.329 --> 01:02:11.159
be a warning to us all Yeah, I would completely

01:02:11.159 --> 01:02:13.579
agree. A lot of what we've talked about around

01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:20.340
the controversy, in very big air quotes, around

01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:23.519
kink at pride and the impact that it has on the

01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:28.480
kids, pity the poor children, is kind of fuelled

01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:31.719
by the media. Media do love a moral panic. They

01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:35.360
do. And especially in this social media age where

01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:38.150
people will post images and video of... what

01:02:38.150 --> 01:02:41.449
apparently happens at pride and some of it is

01:02:41.449 --> 01:02:46.710
quite explicit yeah um so it's it's easy to see

01:02:46.710 --> 01:02:49.050
how that kind of moral panic spreads because

01:02:49.050 --> 01:02:50.750
you see an image you go well this is what happens

01:02:50.750 --> 01:02:52.909
at pride Well, all the prizes should be banned

01:02:52.909 --> 01:02:54.530
then and all these kinky perverts should be locked

01:02:54.530 --> 01:02:57.150
up. But actually, it isn't an accurate representation

01:02:57.150 --> 01:03:00.090
of what happens at the vast majority of Pride

01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:02.650
events. No. And it makes it really hard sort

01:03:02.650 --> 01:03:04.670
of defending kink at Pride. Because when I say

01:03:04.670 --> 01:03:06.409
kink is welcome at Pride, what I'm talking about

01:03:06.409 --> 01:03:10.469
is collars, hoods, leather, latex, maybe a person

01:03:10.469 --> 01:03:13.090
on a leash. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. But

01:03:13.090 --> 01:03:15.849
when I say... I support kink at Pride, what a

01:03:15.849 --> 01:03:17.909
lot of people hear is, so that one video of a

01:03:17.909 --> 01:03:19.949
guy getting fisted in the street, you're cool

01:03:19.949 --> 01:03:22.050
with that in front of children, right? Which

01:03:22.050 --> 01:03:27.789
I am not. And about 98, 99 % of the time, if

01:03:27.789 --> 01:03:30.570
you see a video of an explicit sex act or explicit

01:03:30.570 --> 01:03:33.929
BDSM or even full frontal nudity at what appears

01:03:33.929 --> 01:03:35.809
to be a Pride event, what you're looking at is

01:03:35.809 --> 01:03:39.110
a photo from Folsom Street Fair. Right. Which

01:03:39.110 --> 01:03:41.429
is something that happens, I believe, alongside

01:03:41.429 --> 01:03:44.429
Pride. It's sort of Pride adjacent, but it is

01:03:44.429 --> 01:03:47.969
in a fenced off part of the city. There's like

01:03:47.969 --> 01:03:49.849
gated entrance where you need a ticket to go

01:03:49.849 --> 01:03:52.710
in. To buy a ticket, you have to be over 18.

01:03:53.150 --> 01:03:56.429
You will be ID'd. You will have to know what

01:03:56.429 --> 01:03:57.809
you're signing up for. They will tell you very

01:03:57.809 --> 01:03:59.849
clearly what you're signing up for. And it is

01:03:59.849 --> 01:04:02.989
an S &M and leather focused Pride event. Right.

01:04:03.170 --> 01:04:06.340
So it is essentially a big like... pride vibe

01:04:06.340 --> 01:04:09.059
play party is my understanding right and Folsom

01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:12.880
is in San Francisco it is yes mix yeah so I think

01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:14.519
and I could be wrong on this but I think it happens

01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:16.940
around the same time as San Francisco pride right

01:04:16.940 --> 01:04:20.000
um but it is it's its own event it is separate

01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:23.739
from pride um but with obviously some people

01:04:23.739 --> 01:04:25.360
who would also go to pride will also go to that

01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.159
yeah But if you go in there, you know exactly

01:04:28.159 --> 01:04:29.900
what you're signing up for. No one is going to

01:04:29.900 --> 01:04:31.780
see anything that they haven't agreed they're

01:04:31.780 --> 01:04:33.500
going to see. It's the same as us going to a

01:04:33.500 --> 01:04:35.619
kink event, just on a much larger scale. Yeah.

01:04:36.099 --> 01:04:38.920
And outside. And outside, yeah. So although things

01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:41.199
are happening in the street, it is not at a time

01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:42.719
where the street is accessible to the general

01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:45.940
public. Yeah. So out of context, images and videos

01:04:45.940 --> 01:04:48.079
from Folsom go viral every now and again and

01:04:48.079 --> 01:04:49.860
go, oh my God, look at what's happening at Pride.

01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.920
And that is not what's happening at Pride. The

01:04:52.920 --> 01:04:55.059
remaining 1 % to 2 % of the time there's a panic

01:04:55.059 --> 01:04:58.000
like this. you will see an image of someone who

01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:00.159
has done something inappropriate at Pride that

01:05:00.159 --> 01:05:02.300
no one is supporting them in doing. The Pride

01:05:02.300 --> 01:05:04.820
is not allowing them to do. They have just probably

01:05:04.820 --> 01:05:07.119
got a bit too drunk and they are irresponsible

01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:11.079
and they've decided to flash a camera or grab

01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:12.679
their partner and do something that's crossing

01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:15.559
a line in a public place. That is not representative

01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:18.019
of the kink community as a whole and probably

01:05:18.019 --> 01:05:20.019
not representative of those people's best selves.

01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:22.900
It's not telling you anything about what we're

01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:24.460
talking about when we're talking about kink at

01:05:24.460 --> 01:05:27.679
Pride. Yeah. And when you say crossing a line,

01:05:27.739 --> 01:05:30.719
you mean it's crossing a line, whether it's Pride

01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:32.800
or whether it's an average Tuesday afternoon.

01:05:33.219 --> 01:05:36.239
Yes, exactly. It is stuff that is illegal to

01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:41.739
do. Yeah. Anytime. Yes. Yeah. And is actually

01:05:41.739 --> 01:05:44.500
disregarding bystander consent in the form of

01:05:44.500 --> 01:05:46.699
what that should mean, where it's involving people

01:05:46.699 --> 01:05:49.239
in someone else's sex lives without their consent

01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:53.219
or in some cases knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. Is there

01:05:53.219 --> 01:05:56.500
a similar sort of event? In the UK? There, as

01:05:56.500 --> 01:05:58.599
far as I know, isn't currently. If I'm wrong

01:05:58.599 --> 01:05:59.940
on that, someone please tell me because I want

01:05:59.940 --> 01:06:03.920
to go. But there has been an S &M Pride in the

01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:07.159
UK before. Right. That started in response to

01:06:07.159 --> 01:06:10.280
Operation Spanner. Right. So this was back in

01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:14.139
1990, I want to say. I believe the case started

01:06:14.139 --> 01:06:18.619
in the late 80s. And several gay men were arrested,

01:06:18.780 --> 01:06:20.559
charged, and ultimately most of them went to

01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:24.690
prison for consensual S &M. sadomasochism um

01:06:24.690 --> 01:06:26.869
they had filmed some of the things that they'd

01:06:26.869 --> 01:06:29.869
done and were initially swept up as part of a

01:06:29.869 --> 01:06:33.010
police operation trying to crack down on obscenity

01:06:33.010 --> 01:06:36.610
so um porn pornographic materials that broke

01:06:36.610 --> 01:06:39.250
obscenity law and then ended up being prosecuted

01:06:39.250 --> 01:06:42.730
largely for the acts of violence which were considered

01:06:42.730 --> 01:06:45.610
to be not defensible by saying they were consensual

01:06:45.610 --> 01:06:48.769
right um and in response to that there was an

01:06:48.769 --> 01:06:51.210
snm pride event that was set up i don't think

01:06:51.210 --> 01:06:55.039
it ran for very long unfortunately um as often

01:06:55.039 --> 01:06:56.980
happens with any kind of movements trying to

01:06:56.980 --> 01:06:59.960
fight for kinky rights the momentum goes out

01:06:59.960 --> 01:07:02.079
of it because it is so much easier for people

01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:03.980
to live a closeted life than it is for people

01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:06.260
to live with being called perverts on the front

01:07:06.260 --> 01:07:08.400
page of the newspapers every day yeah and we

01:07:08.400 --> 01:07:12.179
we tend to fold as a community yeah i still keep

01:07:12.539 --> 01:07:14.420
living in hope that that will change in my lifetime

01:07:14.420 --> 01:07:16.980
but yeah no one really wants to get on board

01:07:16.980 --> 01:07:19.360
with the the fight i mean i'm too old for activism

01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:21.980
to be fair i was literally just saying yeah i'm

01:07:21.980 --> 01:07:24.460
too fucking old for activism but if someone starts

01:07:24.460 --> 01:07:26.800
an snm pride i will go and i will get involved

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:30.659
and i will help um because because it's important

01:07:30.659 --> 01:07:33.840
um we do need a movement of that of our own whether

01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:35.260
we call it pride or whether we call it something

01:07:35.260 --> 01:07:41.650
else and we see a lot more call it shame Oh my

01:07:41.650 --> 01:07:45.730
God, I would love that. And you definitely see

01:07:45.730 --> 01:07:48.489
it more with queer kinky people because they

01:07:48.489 --> 01:07:50.289
often do see the fight for their rights as a

01:07:50.289 --> 01:07:52.070
queer person and their fight for their rights

01:07:52.070 --> 01:07:54.409
as a sexual being in general to be very tangled

01:07:54.409 --> 01:07:56.369
up together and hard to separate out from each

01:07:56.369 --> 01:07:59.170
other. Yeah. So in those places where the two

01:07:59.170 --> 01:08:00.989
communities intersect is where you do see more

01:08:00.989 --> 01:08:03.469
pushback against oppression and where you do

01:08:03.469 --> 01:08:05.289
get people wanting to express themselves more

01:08:05.289 --> 01:08:09.139
publicly. But... I think the straight kinky community

01:08:09.139 --> 01:08:11.960
often has a hard time relinquishing their privilege

01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:14.360
to get on board with that, where actually we

01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:16.960
would all be so much stronger and all much better

01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:19.100
protected if we did. Which leads to a really

01:08:19.100 --> 01:08:21.960
interesting question, doesn't it, then? Do straight

01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:25.380
kinky people belong at Pride? I would say yes,

01:08:25.380 --> 01:08:27.319
Mix, but in the same way that I think all straight

01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:29.619
people should go to at least one Pride. Yeah?

01:08:30.199 --> 01:08:34.199
As allies. As allies, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think...

01:08:34.470 --> 01:08:36.149
Like I touched on earlier, it's really important

01:08:36.149 --> 01:08:38.390
that we don't conflate kinky identity and queer

01:08:38.390 --> 01:08:40.329
identity. They have a lot of crossover. There

01:08:40.329 --> 01:08:42.010
are a lot of people with a foot in each camp.

01:08:42.250 --> 01:08:44.590
And we have a lot of shared fights in common.

01:08:44.869 --> 01:08:48.250
But we're not the same. And when people do try

01:08:48.250 --> 01:08:50.590
to lump them together, which, as I said, is quite

01:08:50.590 --> 01:08:52.970
rare, you find that straight people often don't

01:08:52.970 --> 01:08:54.489
really know how to mesh into queer community

01:08:54.489 --> 01:08:57.550
in that way without causing more harm than good.

01:08:57.689 --> 01:09:00.510
Having us as two separate but intersecting communities

01:09:00.510 --> 01:09:02.590
who support each other, I think, is a lot more

01:09:02.590 --> 01:09:05.130
healthy. But I think it's important for straight

01:09:05.130 --> 01:09:06.850
allies to be welcome at Pride. They shouldn't

01:09:06.850 --> 01:09:08.449
ever be the priority. They're not the people

01:09:08.449 --> 01:09:10.829
that Pride is for. No. But they should be welcome

01:09:10.829 --> 01:09:13.390
and they should be encouraged to go because that's

01:09:13.390 --> 01:09:17.310
how you demystify queer identity. That's how

01:09:17.310 --> 01:09:20.569
you learn. That's how you connect with people

01:09:20.569 --> 01:09:22.689
as people instead of just seeing them as this

01:09:22.689 --> 01:09:24.510
other, even if it's another you see in a very

01:09:24.510 --> 01:09:27.640
positive way. Yeah. it's better to have those

01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:29.399
authentic connections and going to Pride can

01:09:29.399 --> 01:09:31.380
be a really good part of that. So I like seeing,

01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:33.760
and I like taking straight kinky people along

01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:36.020
to Pride with me. And I think they should be

01:09:36.020 --> 01:09:37.739
allowed to express Pride in those elements of

01:09:37.739 --> 01:09:39.899
their sexuality, in any elements of their sexuality,

01:09:40.100 --> 01:09:43.380
as long as it's not, but look at me, but make

01:09:43.380 --> 01:09:46.800
it all about me. Yeah. I suppose it goes back

01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:48.039
to that, what we were talking about earlier on,

01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:49.479
where it's like, do we need to be adding a K

01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:55.050
and a P to the LGBTQIA plus? acronym and the

01:09:55.050 --> 01:09:57.810
answer is no probably not no but it's great that

01:09:57.810 --> 01:10:01.510
you're here yeah you know yeah but it must be

01:10:01.510 --> 01:10:04.869
really you know not to not to send straight people

01:10:04.869 --> 01:10:09.029
i suppose but it must be a really strange space

01:10:09.029 --> 01:10:12.810
to occupy yeah because you are as a kinky person

01:10:12.810 --> 01:10:16.310
marginalized but as a straight person massively

01:10:16.310 --> 01:10:19.460
privileged yeah and that must be quite I can

01:10:19.460 --> 01:10:22.159
imagine that's quite a challenging space to navigate.

01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:28.199
Yeah, definitely. And how you actually, like

01:10:28.199 --> 01:10:31.359
how you perform allyship in that way. Like if

01:10:31.359 --> 01:10:33.180
you're kind of switched on and thinking about

01:10:33.180 --> 01:10:37.159
it, it could get quite confusing and complicated.

01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:40.659
Definitely. And I think the frustrating thing

01:10:40.659 --> 01:10:43.500
about that situation is that kink wouldn't be

01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:45.920
marginalised if the people who had the most privilege

01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:50.529
would stand up and fight for it. Um, I mean,

01:10:50.529 --> 01:10:53.470
just to take CNC as an example, 60 % of women

01:10:53.470 --> 01:10:56.810
have rape fantasies, 62%. Yeah. Stand up and

01:10:56.810 --> 01:10:59.970
say it and see how long the stigma around that

01:10:59.970 --> 01:11:02.609
persists. Yeah. But no one wants to give up the

01:11:02.609 --> 01:11:05.090
privilege to do it. You apply the same to every

01:11:05.090 --> 01:11:07.310
other kink and fetish. Like if you combine us

01:11:07.310 --> 01:11:09.590
all together, we're probably a majority, but

01:11:09.590 --> 01:11:11.329
most of us are existing in the shadows because

01:11:11.329 --> 01:11:15.109
no one is prepared to give up that very fragile.

01:11:15.950 --> 01:11:17.770
privilege that they're able to hide behind. And

01:11:17.770 --> 01:11:20.069
that could be taken away the second someone leaks

01:11:20.069 --> 01:11:22.569
your Pornhub history. The second that someone

01:11:22.569 --> 01:11:25.729
takes a photo of you at an event. The second

01:11:25.729 --> 01:11:28.079
that a vindictive partner... breaks up with you

01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:30.439
and posts private photos on the internet or even

01:11:30.439 --> 01:11:32.619
just tells people what you're into like people

01:11:32.619 --> 01:11:34.300
are hiding behind this privilege thinking it

01:11:34.300 --> 01:11:36.659
will protect them and it won't when it comes

01:11:36.659 --> 01:11:39.659
down to it especially in the digital age we're

01:11:39.659 --> 01:11:42.420
losing more and more privacy every day with advancements

01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:45.060
in ai and hacking and all of this like all of

01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.699
our privacy could just be gone overnight and

01:11:47.699 --> 01:11:51.539
people are so scared to lose that illusion of

01:11:51.539 --> 01:11:53.579
privilege that they end up condemning all of

01:11:53.579 --> 01:11:55.960
us yeah um so what i would like to see straight

01:11:55.960 --> 01:11:58.850
people doing not just at pride in general is

01:11:58.850 --> 01:12:01.409
being a bit fucking weirder to make it easier

01:12:01.409 --> 01:12:05.010
for the rest of us yeah yeah yeah using your

01:12:05.010 --> 01:12:08.550
privilege for good rather than evil yeah and

01:12:08.550 --> 01:12:11.789
just just self -interest yeah use it for self

01:12:11.789 --> 01:12:14.649
-interest as well though because like daddy starmer

01:12:14.649 --> 01:12:17.649
is coming for your porn Yeah, yeah. Like, stand

01:12:17.649 --> 01:12:20.590
the fuck up. Because it's not just the perverts

01:12:20.590 --> 01:12:22.869
now. It is all of us. We are all in this together.

01:12:22.949 --> 01:12:25.409
And if people don't start learning some shit

01:12:25.409 --> 01:12:27.270
from Pride and learning some shit from the queer

01:12:27.270 --> 01:12:30.649
community, we are all fucked. Yeah, yeah. Daddy

01:12:30.649 --> 01:12:32.970
Starmer made me feel a bit sick. I thought it

01:12:32.970 --> 01:12:35.750
would. That's a bit much. Well, if everyone would

01:12:35.750 --> 01:12:37.630
stop licking his boots all the time, we wouldn't

01:12:37.630 --> 01:12:39.250
have to call him. We wouldn't have this problem.

01:12:39.470 --> 01:12:43.210
No, you're right. There is something... There's...

01:12:43.210 --> 01:12:45.310
Blah. You were going to say there's something

01:12:45.310 --> 01:12:46.789
really interesting about, weren't you, Mick?

01:12:46.850 --> 01:12:49.550
I was. And I stopped myself because I say it

01:12:49.550 --> 01:12:52.229
a lot. I might call the episode Daddy Starmer

01:12:52.229 --> 01:12:54.189
is coming for your porn. No, because it's about

01:12:54.189 --> 01:12:56.229
pride. I know. It used to be pride related, but

01:12:56.229 --> 01:12:58.289
that is a great episode title. I wonder if that

01:12:58.289 --> 01:13:02.250
will change over time, though. That idea of kink

01:13:02.250 --> 01:13:04.430
being something that should be closeted and something

01:13:04.430 --> 01:13:07.250
that should be quiet. And I wonder whether it

01:13:07.250 --> 01:13:09.829
is the history of that, the root of that, is

01:13:09.829 --> 01:13:11.970
coming from people who have privilege. Yeah.

01:13:12.489 --> 01:13:15.029
And actually, even in the relatively short period

01:13:15.029 --> 01:13:18.449
of time that I've been present in our local community,

01:13:18.750 --> 01:13:21.810
the representation of people who are queer has

01:13:21.810 --> 01:13:24.149
really increased. I think my perception is that

01:13:24.149 --> 01:13:28.529
it's increased. Lots of... There's been a bit

01:13:28.529 --> 01:13:30.529
of an influx, isn't there, of queerer people

01:13:30.529 --> 01:13:33.949
into the community that I've noticed. So I wonder

01:13:33.949 --> 01:13:36.689
whether that perception of how kinky people should

01:13:36.689 --> 01:13:39.130
be will change over time as the demographic.

01:13:40.310 --> 01:13:42.789
changes and some of that kind of older guard

01:13:42.789 --> 01:13:51.529
who've had more privilege um moves on yeah i

01:13:51.529 --> 01:13:54.590
don't know hopefully i'm i'm conscious that there

01:13:54.590 --> 01:13:56.090
has always been a lot of queer people in the

01:13:56.090 --> 01:13:58.369
kink community but not enough of us to do it

01:13:58.369 --> 01:14:01.109
alone yeah and i i fear that may still be the

01:14:01.109 --> 01:14:04.500
case um But I think things are changing. I think

01:14:04.500 --> 01:14:07.000
as we have less and less ability to maintain

01:14:07.000 --> 01:14:09.140
our privacy and as the government stamps down

01:14:09.140 --> 01:14:11.239
harder and harder on sexual freedom and expression,

01:14:11.619 --> 01:14:13.979
there will come a tipping point because there

01:14:13.979 --> 01:14:17.800
has to. You can only push people so far. I just

01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:19.180
feel like the point where we were pushed too

01:14:19.180 --> 01:14:22.119
far was probably Operation Spanner and we should

01:14:22.119 --> 01:14:23.539
have kicked off then and never stopped kicking

01:14:23.539 --> 01:14:27.600
off. Yeah. And it's frustrating that we don't

01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:29.869
understand the fear. And I understand that when

01:14:29.869 --> 01:14:31.689
people have some elements of privilege, it's

01:14:31.689 --> 01:14:34.529
hard to let go of. I think in some ways it's

01:14:34.529 --> 01:14:36.930
easier when you're a very visibly queer person

01:14:36.930 --> 01:14:40.569
like me. And I've never really had, normality

01:14:40.569 --> 01:14:43.489
was never an option. Yeah. That was never a thing

01:14:43.489 --> 01:14:44.970
that I could do. Even when I tried to fake being

01:14:44.970 --> 01:14:47.949
normal, I was terrible at it. So I've never had

01:14:47.949 --> 01:14:50.750
that option. And I think if you have, it's very

01:14:50.750 --> 01:14:54.810
hard to let go of. Yeah, that's fair. And I think

01:14:54.810 --> 01:14:58.140
that to an extent that's true for me. Because

01:14:58.140 --> 01:15:01.859
I'm not obviously queer. When you look at me.

01:15:02.180 --> 01:15:04.340
You are if you keep sticking your dick in me

01:15:04.340 --> 01:15:10.359
mix. Well yeah. Yes. That's fair. But like if

01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:12.600
you encountered me on the street. Yeah. Well

01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:14.619
I am not sticking my dick in you. Because I wouldn't

01:15:14.619 --> 01:15:21.039
do that in the street. No. Then kind of. Don't

01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:25.220
get read as queer. Because I don't look it. I

01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:29.050
look like a. boring 46 year old man nearly 47

01:15:29.050 --> 01:15:31.989
by the time this episode comes out i will be

01:15:31.989 --> 01:15:36.130
47 you will yeah i look like a boring 47 year

01:15:36.130 --> 01:15:39.010
old man i think sometimes we get very into the

01:15:39.010 --> 01:15:41.649
complexities of oppression and marginalization

01:15:41.649 --> 01:15:45.029
and identity and micro labels and sometimes lose

01:15:45.029 --> 01:15:49.550
sight of the the very at a very basic level what

01:15:49.550 --> 01:15:52.930
is often going on is a clash between conservatism

01:15:52.930 --> 01:15:56.100
and progressivism like people Those are the two

01:15:56.100 --> 01:15:58.560
sides. And within that, there are loads and loads

01:15:58.560 --> 01:16:00.939
of splintering and fractures on both sides and

01:16:00.939 --> 01:16:04.100
infighting and drama and chaos. But ultimately,

01:16:04.260 --> 01:16:07.279
what queer people are largely fighting against

01:16:07.279 --> 01:16:09.840
is, like we talked about at the start, oppositional

01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:15.100
sexism, purity culture, fear of sexuality, repression,

01:16:15.220 --> 01:16:17.000
all of that. And that's something that kinky

01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.460
people need to learn from. And that's also what

01:16:19.460 --> 01:16:22.430
people are missing when people who consider themselves

01:16:22.430 --> 01:16:25.210
progressive on the left, feminist, they're part

01:16:25.210 --> 01:16:27.390
of the queer community, start trying to push

01:16:27.390 --> 01:16:29.510
kink out of pride is they often fall into the

01:16:29.510 --> 01:16:32.829
trap of using badly reheated conservative arguments.

01:16:34.570 --> 01:16:36.550
So one of the big ones that we talked about earlier

01:16:36.550 --> 01:16:38.529
is the idea of I don't consent to seeing that.

01:16:38.569 --> 01:16:40.569
I don't consent to seeing someone engaging in

01:16:40.569 --> 01:16:43.729
their kink or fetish in a public place. And there

01:16:43.729 --> 01:16:45.609
is a point where that's valid. Like we said,

01:16:45.649 --> 01:16:47.390
if you are actually getting fisted in a public

01:16:47.390 --> 01:16:51.390
place, don't do that. But that same argument

01:16:51.390 --> 01:16:53.689
has been applied to trans people. And that's

01:16:53.689 --> 01:16:55.569
been a big part of what trans people have had

01:16:55.569 --> 01:16:58.970
to fight against for our liberation is the idea

01:16:58.970 --> 01:17:01.250
that particularly trans women, but it has been

01:17:01.250 --> 01:17:04.600
applied to trans people as a whole. were engaging

01:17:04.600 --> 01:17:08.159
in a fetish the idea that a trans woman is the

01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:09.960
same as a cross -dresser and a cross -dresser

01:17:09.960 --> 01:17:12.239
is inherently doing it for fetish reasons and

01:17:12.239 --> 01:17:15.359
yeah lumping that all into one so saying that

01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:17.260
seeing someone that you perceive as a man wearing

01:17:17.260 --> 01:17:19.319
women's clothing is being exposed to a fetish

01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:21.560
without your consent then gets applied blanket

01:17:21.560 --> 01:17:24.659
across trans women casting them as predators

01:17:24.659 --> 01:17:27.859
casting them as sexually aggressive just for

01:17:27.859 --> 01:17:32.039
identifying and presenting as themselves um And

01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:33.720
people who will say that they're all for trans

01:17:33.720 --> 01:17:35.260
rights and will really push back against that

01:17:35.260 --> 01:17:36.979
argument will then turn it around towards other

01:17:36.979 --> 01:17:40.140
people. Not seeing the irony there. Yeah. And

01:17:40.140 --> 01:17:42.699
another one is when I talk about coming out as

01:17:42.699 --> 01:17:45.060
kinky, about having pride in my kink identity,

01:17:45.300 --> 01:17:47.300
about being really open about it with people,

01:17:47.340 --> 01:17:49.619
including like family and co -workers. People

01:17:49.619 --> 01:17:52.220
immediately put that into the box of oversharing,

01:17:52.220 --> 01:17:54.520
being inappropriate, sexual harassment, talking

01:17:54.520 --> 01:17:55.960
about your sex life to people who don't want

01:17:55.960 --> 01:17:58.319
to hear it. Yeah. And that same argument gets

01:17:58.319 --> 01:18:01.229
applied to particularly to... queer people like

01:18:01.229 --> 01:18:03.989
to gay and lesbian people yeah um saying that

01:18:03.989 --> 01:18:06.250
if you talk about having a boyfriend when you're

01:18:06.250 --> 01:18:08.670
a man or a girlfriend when you're a woman that

01:18:08.670 --> 01:18:10.470
you are talking about your sex life and people

01:18:10.470 --> 01:18:12.550
don't want to hear it and like i've got no problem

01:18:12.550 --> 01:18:14.149
with the gays as long as they keep it private

01:18:14.149 --> 01:18:15.810
and behind closed doors don't shove it in my

01:18:15.810 --> 01:18:18.149
face yeah yeah but the thing is someone saying

01:18:18.149 --> 01:18:20.590
i've got a boyfriend is not inherently sexual

01:18:20.590 --> 01:18:22.569
it might be implied that he's probably fucking

01:18:22.569 --> 01:18:25.390
him but yeah yeah but he's not saying that no

01:18:25.390 --> 01:18:27.930
and me saying i have a dominant or I'm in a power

01:18:27.930 --> 01:18:29.850
exchange relationship, is also telling you nothing

01:18:29.850 --> 01:18:32.329
about my sex life, I'm more than happy to tell

01:18:32.329 --> 01:18:34.729
people about my sex life, as the 40 -odd episodes

01:18:34.729 --> 01:18:37.609
of this podcast will demonstrate. But I can also

01:18:37.609 --> 01:18:40.850
have a conversation about my identity as a submissive

01:18:40.850 --> 01:18:43.609
that has nothing to do with sex at all. Those

01:18:43.609 --> 01:18:45.810
are the conversations I have with work. Those

01:18:45.810 --> 01:18:47.649
are quite a lot of the conversations I have with

01:18:47.649 --> 01:18:49.770
family. I mean, me and my family don't have the

01:18:49.770 --> 01:18:51.890
best boundaries, so sometimes it does get a little

01:18:51.890 --> 01:18:54.449
overshary. That is true. But it doesn't have

01:18:54.449 --> 01:18:56.439
to. That's to do with the comfort level of the

01:18:56.439 --> 01:18:59.189
people involved in those conversations. So I

01:18:59.189 --> 01:19:01.369
think some of the pushback about kink at Pride

01:19:01.369 --> 01:19:04.250
comes from, firstly, the misunderstanding, thinking

01:19:04.250 --> 01:19:06.010
that Pride has nothing to do with sex when it

01:19:06.010 --> 01:19:09.090
absolutely does. But also assuming that any expression

01:19:09.090 --> 01:19:11.350
of your sexual identity at Pride is telling people

01:19:11.350 --> 01:19:13.310
about your sex life or showing people your sex

01:19:13.310 --> 01:19:16.189
life. Where wearing a collar or a pup hood or

01:19:16.189 --> 01:19:18.210
leather or any other way that people express

01:19:18.210 --> 01:19:20.409
their kink identity is telling you about who

01:19:20.409 --> 01:19:23.270
they are and how they connect with people. It

01:19:23.270 --> 01:19:24.810
doesn't tell you anything about what they do

01:19:24.810 --> 01:19:26.800
in the bedroom. You can maybe make a few educated

01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:28.819
guesses, but they are still just guesses. Still

01:19:28.819 --> 01:19:32.020
just guesses. And it doesn't pass that test that

01:19:32.020 --> 01:19:34.260
you outlined earlier on of you wouldn't have

01:19:34.260 --> 01:19:37.899
that response to a vanilla heterosexual couple.

01:19:38.100 --> 01:19:40.739
Yeah. Holding hands, kissing, referring to each

01:19:40.739 --> 01:19:42.319
other as boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or

01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:43.600
wife. More than that. A vanilla heterosexual

01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.420
couple can come into the office in front of their

01:19:46.420 --> 01:19:49.300
big boss and say, we're trying for a baby. Yeah.

01:19:50.100 --> 01:19:52.760
Yeah, yeah. That is telling you about their sex

01:19:52.760 --> 01:19:54.859
life. And I'm not against it. Like, absolutely

01:19:54.859 --> 01:19:57.079
be excited about your life moving forward and

01:19:57.079 --> 01:19:58.199
the things you're doing in your relationship

01:19:58.199 --> 01:20:00.840
and starting a family. That's great. But that

01:20:00.840 --> 01:20:02.720
is telling you a lot more about their sex life

01:20:02.720 --> 01:20:04.699
than anything I've ever said in a professional

01:20:04.699 --> 01:20:07.579
environment. Yeah, yeah. Big pregnancy celebrations

01:20:07.579 --> 01:20:10.699
and announcements. Yeah. Yeah, we fucked. Yeah.

01:20:10.979 --> 01:20:15.100
Raw. Raw. I've never told anyone at my workplace

01:20:15.100 --> 01:20:21.140
that. Yeah. Yeah. Breathe me, daddy. Not Daddy

01:20:21.140 --> 01:20:26.619
Starmer. No. Well, he definitely fucking is,

01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:32.939
isn't he? But no, you're right. I think that's,

01:20:32.939 --> 01:20:36.960
it's been, I think one of the most interesting

01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:39.640
things about this whole episode has been kind

01:20:39.640 --> 01:20:42.600
of thinking through that test of what if it was

01:20:42.600 --> 01:20:45.340
a vanilla heterosexual couple? Yeah. What can

01:20:45.340 --> 01:20:48.140
they, what could they get away with? Yeah. That

01:20:48.140 --> 01:20:53.500
is not, air quotes acceptable at pride yeah and

01:20:53.500 --> 01:20:56.539
it's nuts even like engagement and marriage is

01:20:56.539 --> 01:20:58.939
another big one which is telling the legal definition

01:20:58.939 --> 01:21:01.319
of marriage includes consummation in this country

01:21:01.319 --> 01:21:03.380
at least yeah if you tell people you're getting

01:21:03.380 --> 01:21:05.880
married you're at least telling them you're intending

01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:07.779
to have sex if you tell people you've got married

01:21:07.779 --> 01:21:10.119
yeah if your marriage is legal you're telling

01:21:10.119 --> 01:21:12.779
them that you've had sex yeah and we consider

01:21:12.779 --> 01:21:15.760
that appropriate and it is but yeah accepting

01:21:15.760 --> 01:21:18.180
that humans are sexual beings and sometimes when

01:21:18.180 --> 01:21:20.180
they let you into their life and tell you the

01:21:20.180 --> 01:21:22.539
things that matter to them that there will be

01:21:22.539 --> 01:21:24.659
an implication that some of that means they might

01:21:24.659 --> 01:21:26.699
have done some sexy things with another person

01:21:26.699 --> 01:21:29.819
and that's okay yeah we need to make our peace

01:21:29.819 --> 01:21:32.220
with that and and it is that very british thing

01:21:32.220 --> 01:21:34.699
of but we don't acknowledge sex but sometimes

01:21:34.699 --> 01:21:39.159
you gotta yeah yeah yeah and sometimes you do

01:21:39.159 --> 01:21:41.520
because they come in going i'm having a baby

01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:49.979
is he good in bed i think a lot of this as well

01:21:49.979 --> 01:21:52.319
and it's a separate set of arguments from the

01:21:52.319 --> 01:21:54.359
kink at pride arguments but it is definitely

01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.020
a connected set of arguments where people say

01:21:57.020 --> 01:22:01.319
that engaging in kinks and fetishes or watching

01:22:01.319 --> 01:22:05.170
porn or being a horny pervert deviant in any

01:22:05.170 --> 01:22:07.949
way is an unfeminist act and they talk about

01:22:07.949 --> 01:22:10.090
how women who participate things are being pressured

01:22:10.090 --> 01:22:12.430
into it by the patriarchy and men who participate

01:22:12.430 --> 01:22:15.050
in these things are motivated by misogyny it's

01:22:15.050 --> 01:22:17.310
a massive oversimplification for a start because

01:22:17.310 --> 01:22:19.670
it's making a sort of baseline assumption that

01:22:19.670 --> 01:22:23.350
all of this is about acts of sort of eroticized

01:22:23.350 --> 01:22:25.949
violence by men against women and kink is a much

01:22:25.949 --> 01:22:29.850
wider spectrum than that um but it's also starting

01:22:29.850 --> 01:22:33.149
from a baseline that is actually just pure purity

01:22:33.149 --> 01:22:36.189
culture misogyny that women aren't horny if a

01:22:36.189 --> 01:22:37.869
woman is horny about something then she's been

01:22:37.869 --> 01:22:40.050
brainwashed by a man to do it or she's doing

01:22:40.050 --> 01:22:43.310
it to please a man and like that is fucked yeah

01:22:43.310 --> 01:22:46.909
that is absolute misogyny but if people frame

01:22:46.909 --> 01:22:48.970
it in a feminist enough way then no one calls

01:22:48.970 --> 01:22:53.979
that out um and i think the same sort of logic

01:22:53.979 --> 01:22:55.699
applies to a lot of the arguments against kink

01:22:55.699 --> 01:23:00.300
at pride is that it hinges on casting like the

01:23:00.300 --> 01:23:03.640
good queers as pure unsexual beings who are just

01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:06.340
here for the love and the equal marriage yeah

01:23:06.340 --> 01:23:10.100
and and the rainbows and the glitter yeah party

01:23:10.100 --> 01:23:13.220
in the park and maybe two bottles of wine um

01:23:13.220 --> 01:23:17.779
and it wants to parcel off queer sexuality because

01:23:17.779 --> 01:23:21.979
it's messy and inconvenient and damages our credibility

01:23:21.979 --> 01:23:24.779
to the public but in doing that they're just

01:23:24.779 --> 01:23:27.840
reinforcing the same idea that queer sexuality

01:23:27.840 --> 01:23:30.220
is deviant and disgusting and needs to be pushed

01:23:30.220 --> 01:23:33.340
underground yeah allowing liberation for some

01:23:33.340 --> 01:23:35.260
of us on the condition that they completely de

01:23:35.260 --> 01:23:37.880
-sex themselves is not liberation it's just more

01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:41.960
oppression with more complicated steps yeah it's

01:23:41.960 --> 01:23:45.119
that really stereotypical gay trope isn't it

01:23:45.449 --> 01:23:47.630
kind of little blonde twink who's good with the

01:23:47.630 --> 01:23:49.970
gossip and always tells you how fabulous you

01:23:49.970 --> 01:23:52.229
look and good really good dress sense and all

01:23:52.229 --> 01:23:54.350
of that kind of stuff that's the acceptable version

01:23:54.350 --> 01:23:57.949
of queer um it's a little bit frustrating that

01:23:57.949 --> 01:24:00.489
that's what is presented to us and what is how

01:24:00.489 --> 01:24:02.569
queer people are represented in so much media

01:24:02.569 --> 01:24:06.689
as that kind of sexless stereotype yeah and that's

01:24:06.689 --> 01:24:09.850
the only thing that's acceptable yeah definitely

01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.739
Fuck them. So this is your encouragement to this

01:24:14.739 --> 01:24:18.739
Pride season. Be a horny, deviant pervert. Whatever

01:24:18.739 --> 01:24:21.020
that looks like for you. And if you're not a

01:24:21.020 --> 01:24:22.840
horny, deviant pervert and you would prefer not

01:24:22.840 --> 01:24:25.140
to be, we support you as well. But just be your

01:24:25.140 --> 01:24:27.920
weirdest self. Do not let anyone put you in a

01:24:27.920 --> 01:24:31.460
box. Yep. And if you see the horny, deviant perverts

01:24:31.460 --> 01:24:33.279
at Pride, go and tell them they look great. Yeah.

01:24:33.460 --> 01:24:35.460
They will love it. If you give a leather man

01:24:35.460 --> 01:24:37.159
a compliment on his leather or a leather woman

01:24:37.159 --> 01:24:39.300
a compliment on her leather, they will lose their

01:24:39.300 --> 01:24:41.079
minds. They will. They will be really, really

01:24:41.079 --> 01:24:45.439
pleased. Yeah. And just on that kind of finish

01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:48.239
where we started or I think I started, which

01:24:48.239 --> 01:24:52.199
is it is always so joyous. You know, I've only

01:24:52.199 --> 01:24:54.840
been to two. So, you know, whenever I go to Pride.

01:24:56.180 --> 01:25:01.020
But it is always joyous to see the Leathermen

01:25:01.020 --> 01:25:03.699
just knocking about the city centre. Yeah. You

01:25:03.699 --> 01:25:06.220
know, first time, first Pride we went to, we

01:25:06.220 --> 01:25:07.800
were sitting in Wetherspoons outside the Civic

01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:12.029
Centre in Newcastle. And there was a few of them

01:25:12.029 --> 01:25:15.770
in the pub just sitting and waiting. And it just

01:25:15.770 --> 01:25:18.310
made me so happy. Yeah. Because it's like, that's

01:25:18.310 --> 01:25:21.750
where it started. Yes. So you should be right

01:25:21.750 --> 01:25:25.229
down the front. Big fucking flag leading off

01:25:25.229 --> 01:25:28.689
the march. Not some fucking company. 100 % agree.

01:25:28.930 --> 01:25:31.090
Good. I think we're all done then. I think we

01:25:31.090 --> 01:25:33.789
are, yes. That was a really interesting start

01:25:33.789 --> 01:25:39.560
to our Pride month. run of episodes yes i'm very

01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:49.699
excited for the rest of them yep okay bye thanks

01:25:49.699 --> 01:25:51.819
for listening to this week's episode of don't

01:25:51.819 --> 01:25:54.039
scare the newbies you can support us on patreon

01:25:54.039 --> 01:25:56.180
for a whole extra episode every month and head

01:25:56.180 --> 01:25:58.619
to carizal .com for my blog and links to everywhere

01:25:58.619 --> 01:26:01.180
else you can follow me see you next time