Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,
a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we're going to be
talking about the discourse -friendly topic,
kink at pride. Woo! We're here, we're queer.
Give us a beer. So this is the first of a few
episodes which are focused around pride. Yes,
mate. To celebrate Pride Month. Happy Pride Month,
everyone. Happy Pride Month, everybody. We are
in Pride Month. So there will be pride flags
everywhere. Yes. On top of all of the big companies
who are very gay for 30 days a year. Yes. And
like to take the queer pound. And then they will
forget about us. I like to take the queer pound
mix. Jesus fucking Christ. Oh my God. You just
turn everything filthy, don't you? You really
set that one up for me. I did. Not deliberately.
That was not planned at all. But to be fair.
a pretty good way of getting into an episode
about kink at pride yeah and you know what a
way to start a run of episodes talking about
and celebrating Pride Month, the most controversial
bit of it that we could think of. Let's start
there. Absolutely. So, yeah, we've got just to
give you a little preview of what's coming up
in a couple of weeks. We've got an episode talking
about sexual orientation and sexuality in general.
The final episode of Pride Month is going to
be talking about the leather community and boot
blacking. And then next week is one that wasn't
specifically a Pride Month one, but I felt like
fitted in really well because both of the guests
are trans and they're going to be talking to
us about age play and ABDA. but specifically
from a trans perspective and talking about the
intersections of being the the sort of least
wanted people at the party from two different
angles yeah which i think is something that's
really worth fitting in there yes so yeah we've
got an exciting month coming up yeah excellent
stuff so let's talk about our experience of pride
first i think um because i've only been to a
couple my first pride experience was with you
yeah we went to um we went to newcastle pride
And we did the march. And then we hung about
with some pals. And it was a really fun time.
I had a great time doing it. But I got to the
age of, what would I have been then? 45. And
never been to Pride. Yeah. I can't remember if
I've ever asked you why you'd never gone before,
Mix. I think I was a bit cynical about it. Yeah.
I think. As if you could tell. By the way that
I introduced this episode, kind of criticising
corporate pride efforts. Yeah, I am not the most
well -educated when it comes to the history of
pride and queer history, generally. You've taught
me quite a lot, and other pals have taught me
quite a lot, but I'm not massively educated on
it. But one thing I do know... is that Pride
wasn't started and wasn't intended to be a corporate
branded street party for kids. Yeah, very much
not that. That's not what that was. It was a
protest. It's a cliche, but it's true. Pride
was a riot. Yeah. So I think I was a little bit
cynical about the concept of it. So I didn't
go. and didn't go before I came out as bisexual,
didn't go after I came out as bisexual for the
same sort of reasons. I think that changed a
little bit when we got together because I think
one of the many, many, many, many, many things
I love about you is that you are quite fearlessly
queer in the same way that you are quite fearlessly
kinky. And that's quite inspiring. I go, actually,
I'm never going to be as fearlessly queer as
you are. But I can be visibly queer. And I probably
should be. So why not? Yeah. But also, you wanted
to go to Pride. And I was like, yeah, fine. Let's
do that. You know? And I think the first time
that we went was really nice because we met up
with some pals in the pub near where the parade
starts in Newcastle. We did the parade. And then...
we went to a couple of things which weren't the
big official Pride Festival stuff. Like some
of our friends are involved in local trans groups
and they were doing things. They had a little
gathering outside the Civic Centre in Newcastle
and then they had an event that they were running
at a place called One Strawberry Lane. Yeah.
So we did that and it was just really nice to
kind of be a part of it but not involved in the...
big flashy lights yeah and part of that was because
we didn't want to buy tickets for the the main
arena which is something that that as we'll come
on to we have done since and it's getting to
the point where it's very hard to find a pride
that is actually a free pride all the way through
especially any of the bigger prides yeah which
i think is a real shame so i had a real Reluctance
to pay for tickets to Pride, I object to that.
Because, yeah, Pride started as riots and protests.
And it's supposed to be for everybody who's part
of the community. And it should be accessible
to all. And paywalling it doesn't sit well with
me. No. But that does... It pushes you to those
sort of more community -organised fringe bits,
which can be really good. But also, if you're
looking to get drunk and listen to loud music,
sometimes you can feel like you're missing out
a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And... You know, to
be fair to Newcastle Pride, the whole thing isn't
paywalled. Obviously, the march is not paywalled.
They have a vigil at the end of it, which is
free to attend. And there are other things going
on around the city centre, which are accessible
to everybody. But it's not the main attraction.
It feels a bit sort of like afterthought -y to
me. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you know,
they have a little market in Old Eldon Square,
but that is mostly... organizations with pride
branded merch yeah um not a lot of actually local
actually queer makers and sellers yeah and that
feels like something that's shifted in pride
over the years that i've been going to it where
the market used to be a lot more of a mix there
were always organizations there but it wasn't
just organizations and yeah almost exclusively
is and i don't know if that's pride pricing small
businesses out i don't know if it's more organizations
applying that's kind of forced them out or who
knows who knows what the reason is but um but
yeah it becomes very much like you're going around
lots of different big companies telling you how
great they are yeah which isn't always the vibe
that you want no and isn't always true yeah either
um if we're being really cynical about it um
so yeah my first pride experience was really
fun pretty low -key we we kind of did the march
hung out and then realized that we're actually
quite middle -aged so i came home and ordered
some takeaway which was good too which was good
too my first pride was a long time ago right
my first pride was 2009 Oh, wow. So I don't know
if there had been any more local to me where
I lived in Halifax. I'm pretty confident there
wasn't a Halifax Pride at the time. There might
be now. So probably my nearest would have been
like Leeds or Manchester when I was a teenager
and I'd never been to either of those. And then
when I was first dating my ex who lived in Newcastle.
he suggested that we go to newcastle pride and
i came up for that um so that was at the time
a much smaller event there was still a pretty
big march but not as big as it gets these days
and then it finished up in leases park yeah and
they had stalls and they had their main stage
but their main stage then was like one of the
little like extra stages now it was teeny um
and they had various different performers on
the stage and there were bars but it was very
much The vibe was like going for a picnic with
your mates in the park where there was a little
bit of stuff going on. I baked a big, big box
of rainbow cupcakes and took them around Pride,
handing them out to people. And people absolutely
loved it. It was great. We sneaked in our own
alcohol, which you weren't supposed to do. Naughty.
And we drank it and I fell over. And then we
went home and it was really nice. And there were
downsides too. Like there was people on stage
like openly saying really biphobic things, which
was a bit of a slap in the face with me identifying
as bisexual at the time at my first Pride. Like,
don't like that. But there were more things good
about it than there were bad. And a lot of the
things that I liked most about it, the things
that have been lost over the years, like now...
Pride now obviously happens in Newcastle, it
happens in the city centre, where after the march
it becomes very sort of scattered. Some people
are going to the main stage, some people are
going to the additional stage that there is,
some people are going to look at the stalls,
but they're all spread out all across the city
rather than all being together in one big park.
When they were still having it in a park, they
were having it in Exhibition Park, which is quite
a lot bigger. And they were not allowing people
to bring in any of their own food and drink.
I know not letting people sneak in alcohol is
probably for the best, but not letting people
bring in picnic food, bring in cakes to share
and things like that took away some of the community
feel and prices out a lot of families and people
who are unemployed, which is a bit of shit because
the food vans are very expensive. They're often
really nice, but if you're taking all your kids,
it's not ideal. And in common with a lot of those,
like street food vendors, quite a lot of money
for not a lot of food. Yeah. You don't get great
portions a lot of the time. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
And pricing out people who are in work, not just
people who are unemployed. Like, that shit is
expensive. Yeah, it does get really expensive.
So I think, I mean, that's one of the good things
about the move to Pride in the City that they're
now doing is that unless you're going into the
main arena, if you do want to bring your own
sandwiches or go into one of the shops or cafes
around town, you can do that, which is a plus.
But I feel like it makes it feel less community
focused because everyone scatters in that way.
Yeah. yeah yeah so there's ups and downs to it
and definitely having the the main stage being
a pay to get in situation yeah it's something
that i'll never be fully on board with but i
still love pride however much it changes and
however much it starts to drift away from its
protest spirit it's still the only time of the
year that you can go into newcastle and just
everywhere you see are openly visibly loudly
proudly queer people everywhere expressing themselves
that's really cool environment out on the The
gay scene around the gay bars on Pride Night
is always just amazing. I mean, very crowded
and very expensive, but amazing. So there's still
more good about it than bad. But like you, I'm
very much like, yeah, this stuff started as a
protest and that's important. We don't want to
completely lose that in all the partying. You
know, things being good enough that we can party
more than we protest is a good problem to have.
But I think sometimes we ignore the stuff that
we still really should be protesting about. Yeah.
Because it's easier to market. Let's wear rainbows
and get drunk in the park. Yeah. Yeah. There's
that level of almost acceptability politics to
it, isn't there? That kind of this version of
queer is palatable to the mass market. So it
is all about partying in the city centre and
waving rainbow flags and stuff like that. Yeah.
Because people, not everybody, obviously, because
you still get the, oh, what about straight pride?
but that's an easier sell yeah than actually
things are still a bit shit for a lot of us things
are actually things are really shit for a good
number of us and and that's not great yeah the
messaging has become very palatable it's like
love is love it's like okay cool but it was sex
that was criminalized not love so let's remember
what this is about first um and also like maybe
we should focus more on like the rollback of
trans rights and the rights of queer youth and
the suicide rates and the mental health rates
and the drug addiction and smoking and all of
that like those are the things we should really
be paying attention to there's a lot we have
to celebrate as well considering how far the
community has come since the first prides yeah
but i feel like we should have space for both
yeah in there yeah there is a way of delivering
that really hard message yeah without necessarily
ruining the desired festival vibe of Pride in
the Sea. Yeah. And I still love the festival
vibe, as we saw last year. I'm more than capable
of getting extremely drunk and having a great
time at a Pride party. Yes, because we did sacrifice
our morals a little bit, didn't we? At last year's
Pride. And we purchased tickets for the arena
bit of the Pride weekend, which was fun. It was.
It was fun. One of us, and I'm not saying which
one of us it is, but one of us got extremely
drunk and almost died. I wouldn't say almost
died, Mix. I didn't feel great the next day.
No. So Newcastle Pride, it's a two -day festival,
isn't it? It's a two -day thing in the main arena.
So we rock up after the march on the Saturday
and you, in the space of... I would say an hour
and a half down to two bottles of what I can
only really describe as vinegar masquerading
as wine. Overpriced. Masquerading as very expensive
wine. Yeah. And to be fair to you, that day you
had a great time. I don't know. Everybody had
a great time. You were incredibly drunk, dancing
around in your tiny little outfit with your nose
hook on. having a great time um and to be fair
it was fun wasn't it in the arena it wasn't as
busy as i thought it would be i think it got
busy later on but we ended up meandering out
um yeah but yeah it wasn't as busy as i would
have thought um but it was really fun yeah decent
entertainment i still think they should spend
less on entertainment that's i will get on my
soapbox over and over again today i think if
they spent less on entertainment they could do
more with pride as a whole but yeah seeing as
they've done it We go. We have a good time. We
have two bottles of wine. Everything's great.
I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Really enjoyed wearing
my nose hook. And the whole time I was like,
wow, this is surprising how comfortable this
is wearing this all day like this. Yeah, it's
because I was drunk. You were drunk. Because
you have a harness, a leather harness, don't
you, which has got like pig ears on it. And you
can either have a nose hook or a pig nose. Yeah.
On it. So you were queer pig. Queer pig. At Pride.
And you looked amazing. Thank you. You looked
absolutely fabulous. So did you. You stole my
shirt. I did. Which one was it? Was it the multicoloured
one? Yeah, rainbow leopard print shirt mix. Yes,
I did. Yeah. No, you're right. That was really
good. So we had a great time. I can't remember
who was on on the Saturday because we saw the
Taylor Swift tribute, but I feel like that was
Sunday. That was Sunday when I was dying mix.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we were in the arena. Then
we went round the gay scene and then we went
back to our... tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little
hotel room with soil in it yes yeah you had suggested
very smartly and wisely i think that we stay
over on the saturday night because even though
we don't live far from newcastle if mix is drinking
obviously they can't drive so we'd have had to
either bus or taxi in on the saturday then taxi
home then traveling again on the sunday by some
form of public transport then taxi home again
on sunday would have been a lot of taxis backwards
and forwards and also i have found at previous
prides because they've had it as a two -day thing
in newcastle for a few years now that if i drink
on the saturday then if i wake up in my own bed
on the sunday morning i am inclined to stay there
Even if I haven't got a bad hangover, I'm just
a little bit tired and groggy. And by the time
I've got myself together and got ready to go
out, I don't really fancy it anymore. So I thought
if we stay in town, that will keep me going on
Power 3. Yeah. So we did that. But with it being
Pride weekend, a lot of the options were really
expensive and you found a really cheap... It
wasn't even an Airbnb. It was like an Airbnb,
but not hosted through Airbnb. Yeah. these dodgy
little city apartments for very little money.
Yeah, yeah. And we found out why it was so cheap
when we got there. Yeah. Tiny room, tiny bathroom
and mysterious soil in the bed. Yes. Which was
fun. I was drunk enough that I wasn't as distraught
by the soil as I might have been otherwise. No.
But I was not delighted by the soil either. No,
no. And you were pretty poorly the next day as
well, but you powered through. I did. As best
you could until the afternoon. Yeah. And then
we gave up and came home. Yes. Because you needed
to sleep. I really did, yeah. I had an amazing
time. Yeah, it was very, very good. I'm not sure
that I would buy the tickets again. Yeah, I'm
on the fence. We'll find out. I mean, not this
year because we aren't going to be able to make
it this year, but I guess we'll decide next year.
No. I know, they've really screwed us on the
timing of... Local Prides this year, isn't it?
Yeah, Mix. We might be able to make it to Sunderland.
That one's still possible. Yeah, possibly. But
Durham Pride, which is our nearest one, which
we haven't been to together before, but I have
in the past, it normally falls the weekend before
your birthday, but this year it falls on the
weekend of your birthday and we'd already booked
to be away in London. Yes. Which is a better
plan anyway. Yeah, yeah. That's going to be really
exciting. you know clash can't do it and newcastle
pride clashes with our kinky camping trip that
we're going on yes this year falls on the same
weekend so we will not be here we will be breaking
the geneva convention in a field yes uh which
again probably a better plan yeah but it is a
shame that we can't get to although we are we
but we are vaguely hopeful that we can get to
sunderland pride it is the day after the alternative
awards so we'll be up early to get back for it
um because we're going to the alternative awards
holding out a vague hope that we might win we
might win i hope you all voted for us we'll be
real mad if you didn't yeah yeah yeah because
they give you a list they give you a list of
everybody who liked the post so you know we'll
know we'll know who to ban from listening to
our podcast so yeah we may not get to many prides
this year and that's a shame although i will
say very very funny uh to me that one of the
first things that the uh reform councillors in
county durham decided to do was cut the funding
for pride um and immediately two trade unions
turned around and said fine we'll raise the money
for it and actually raised more money than the
funding that was cut yeah so not only is pride
still continuing despite the fact that Durham
County Council is run by fascists, it's going
to be bigger because they've got more money.
And I just love that. It's amazing. Yeah, it's
brilliant. I am very, very pleased about that.
It was Equity and the TUC, Trade Unions Congress,
who raised the money to make up the shortfall.
And they got more. Yeah. Which is just mint.
But I just wanted to mention, because you have
been to a lot of parties. I have. And you haven't
been part of the... organizing of the pride itself
but you have been part of like community groups
who have organized for people to attend together
and have have a good time yeah mick so i used
to be a volunteer with b which is a local trans
organization and while i was part of b i helped
in I helped organise getting a group of our members
together to go to Pride, making sure everyone
gathered together, making sure people had someone
to walk with to arrive and things like that.
And that was always really fun. And I've taken
a lot of people to their first Prides or taken
people to Pride for their first Pride after coming
out as trans when they're a bit nervous. I've
been to a lot of prides. Like definitely there
were a few years where I was sort of going to
Newcastle and Durham and sometimes some of the
smaller ones further afield as well. That's always
been a really big feature of my summer is getting
involved in pride and doing what I can. I've
done a little bit of volunteering at pride, helping
out on stalls for various groups and organisations
before. And it's always been something that feels
really good, feels rewarding. I think as I get
older, because I am so old. I like to just go
to Pride to have a good time for me now. Go with
my friends, go with you. Yeah. Go to have some
drinks and party because as much as it is all
about giving back and community and protest and
all that good stuff, I have done a lot of that.
Yeah. And so now sometimes it is nice to just
go for the party vibes while still remembering
what it's there for. Yeah. I think that's totally
okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with
that at all. You have done a lot for the community.
over the years and beyond just Pride. Yeah, I
used to do a huge amount. And I think there is
a temptation sometimes or like a little bit of
pressure almost sometimes when you're a queer
person to feel like your job as a queer person
is to be a queer activist. Yeah. And the point
of queer activism is so that queer people can
just live queer lives without having to always
be doing something. Yeah. And now I'm in the
phase of not doing something. 100 % valid. Were
you at the legendary washout? Yes, Mix, I was.
I had done like a full sort of over the top drag
makeup and I had neon blue hair at the time.
Yeah. And my makeup all melted off my face in
the rain and got all over my clothes and my blue
hair dye stained everything that I was anywhere
near. Oh no. And we, me and a bunch of friends
had made cardboard signs which literally dissolved
on the march, like fully dissolved. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it was extremely wet. Yeah. Was it the
second day that got cancelled or did they cancel
the first day as well? They cancelled the second
day mix, yeah. Not the first, but they had to
cancel all of the entertainment and stuff on
the second day. And it's happened a few times.
That was the worst one, but it's happened quite
a few times that it's rained so heavily that
it has just been chaos. Not to the point where
they've had to cancel any of it before, I don't
think, but some of the worst wet prides in Newcastle
were before it was a two -day thing, so they
sort of struggled through one day of it. Right.
But yeah, it's however good the weather is in
July, because it's July is when the Newcastle
Pride always happens. It just seems like that
weekend is always a really wet weekend. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Because God hates us. That's right.
That's why. God is homophobic and transphobic.
Yes, Mix. Or Geordie -phobic. Maybe he's just
Geordie -phobic. Maybe, because it is specifically
Newcastle Pride that gets it. Well, I think that's
quite enough of the light and fluffy introduction.
let's talk about let's talk about kink of pride
yes mix what's what's that about So this is always
really controversial. Every year around this
time of year, I start getting people asking on
TikTok, like, what do I think about kink at Pride?
And I start seeing all the discourse about kink
at Pride from both sides of it. People getting
really fighty with each other. So even when I
agree with them, I'm always a bit just exhausted
by it. But I thought it was worth us talking
about because we have to have a position on it.
And I definitely do have a position on it, which
is that kink 100 % does belong at Pride. And
what that looks like is going to... vary a lot
depending on what kind of pride it is and what
sort of pride related event it is if it's an
adult space or if it's a more of a mixed space
for example but kink is part of pride's history
and sexuality more importantly is part of pride
that's what pride is actually about um i touched
on this earlier with the love is love messaging
like that's great love is love love is great
we love love but the reason that pride started
is because gay sex was criminalized And people
who are having gay sex were being persecuted
and discriminated against because of it. Like
this is not about who you have nice, squishy,
lovey feelings for. That is important too. We
love like marriage equality and all of that good
stuff that's come off it. But initially what
Pride was fighting for was the right for people
to experience their sexuality in a fully authentic
way. And naturally, kink has always been something
that has been there alongside it. And I'm not
primarily talking about straight kinky people,
but queer culture has always had a lot of elements
of BDSM and fetish within it. There are definitely
queer people who don't participate in that, which
is obviously fine as well. But as we'll talk
about a lot more in the episode we've got about
leather culture coming up, like that intersection
of kinky and queer identity is where some really
strong pockets of our community are formed and
some of our history is best preserved. and some
of the really important sort of queer traditions
come from. And that is something that Pride has
fought for and has been defended by and should
continue to celebrate in my view. Yeah. And goes
right back to Pride was a riot. Yeah. In that
it was the leather community that were one of
many communities putting their bodies on the
line. Yeah. To fight back against the stuff that
was happening. Yeah. To those communities. So,
you know, at the very least, that should probably
be honoured more than it currently is. definitely
because both of the prizes i've been to it's
been amazing to see like the local leather community
kind of out in force yeah but not really celebrated
in the way that perhaps they should be if we
are remembering our roots yeah i completely agree
i think Pride, as it's morphed into what it is,
as it's moved further away from protest and more
into a party, there's been a strong focus on
making it as appealing to as many people as possible
because they want the numbers in, about making
it family friendly, which I agree with to an
extent. You know, queer people have kids, are
able to have kids now. Some queer people are
kids. Exactly, yeah. So there has to be a space
for families and minors at Pride, but that has
to be balanced against the fact that Pride is
a celebration of what for most of recorded history
has been considered sexual deviance. That's why
queer people have been persecuted, is because
we are considered to be deviant. But I think
that... need to be inclusive of younger people
and families needs to be balanced against the
fact that pride has always been a celebration
of and a protest in favor of deviants yeah and
that's not me saying i think being queer is deviant
that is society for most of recorded history
has been saying that and that's exactly what
we are fighting for the right to normalize and
exist as where if people don't like how our sexuality
looks and how it functions then they they need
to manage their own Comfort with that. They need
to look away if they don't want to see it. We're
not going to make ourselves smaller. No. And
getting all on board with that, but then saying,
but not if you're wearing a puppet. Not if you're
wearing leather. Not if you're wearing a collar.
That's too deviant. Yeah. We're part of the same
community. Yeah. And I think there's this weird
misconception, isn't there, about when we ask
the question, does kink belong at Pride? And
the answer that we give, that we both share,
is yes. There's this misconception that what
that means is a whole bunch of people naked doing
weird sex things on Northumberland Street. Yeah.
Which is a major street in Newcastle, if you're
not familiar. And obviously that's not the reality
of it. And you want to talk about kink at Pride,
you already have kink at Pride because we were
there. You were there wearing an eternity collar.
Yeah. You know, even if you didn't have, like
last year you had your... pig harness and a nose
hook on which is leather fetish wear even if
you didn't have that on you were still visibly
kinky at pride yeah and i think it's worth pointing
out the exact same amount of visibly kinky that
i am in my office job in the financial sector
yeah like and everywhere you go yeah Because
I wear my collar all the time. So a lot of the
representation of kink at Pride that people see
are things that are completely legal to wear
in public and acceptable in a lot of ordinary
social situations. And this varies Pride to Pride.
There are some Prides, I think particularly in
America, where some level of public nudity is
quite normalised. Yeah. But even... there you're
not going to be seeing sex acts you're not going
to be seeing people tying each other up and hitting
each other in public as a general rule the law
still applies you know pride is often quite heavily
policed um both because police want to have a
visible presence to portray themselves as allies
um and because it's a mass gathering in a city
center of course the police are going to be there
yeah so if you started whipping me in the middle
of the street or if i started sucking your dick
in the middle of the street we are going to jail
um kink representation at pride isn't going to
ever be things that you cannot do in that space
it's going to be things that might shock might
offend but it's not going to be things that actually
expose people to sexual activity yeah because
there's this weird thing about kind of bystander
consent isn't there of like oh you i didn't consent
to to see this and therefore it should be banned
yeah and i and i it's just it's a really weird
concept There's something in it for sure, but
I think it's a very misused concept. So bystander
consent is important to things like public nudity
and sex acts. Yeah. If I go into the park and
take all my clothes off and start masturbating,
I am violating bystander consent because I am
exposing people to a sex act and to an extent
involving them in a sex act if part of what's
getting me off is the non -consensual exhibitionism
that I'm engaging in. That is a violation of
bystander consent, but you don't consent to see
people wearing stuff you don't like or being
in relationships you don't approve of or being
a bit weird or being a bit uncomfortable. Yeah.
I don't consent to seeing people wearing socks
with sandals, but I still got to deal with it,
you know? Yeah. Shit happens. Yeah, that is true.
Because it's almost like that, where do you draw
the line, isn't it? It's like, well, okay, well,
do we need to ban kind of any kind of public
display of affection then? Yeah, and that's very
much the criteria I use when I'm figuring out
whether I feel like something feels ethical to
me as far as public expressions of kinkiness
or any kind of public play, for lack of a better
term, fit, is if the vanilla equivalent would
be a violation of consent, then it's not okay.
Yeah. So having sex in a public place, not okay.
So you beating me with a hammer in a public place
that really turns me on, I'm putting on the same
level as that. not okay um a vanilla person calling
their partner babe or sweetie yeah absolutely
fine so me calling you mix or you calling me
baby boy yeah equally fine um a vanilla person
wearing a wedding ring or an engagement ring
absolutely fine so i'm gonna wear my fucking
collar yeah yeah um a vanilla person wearing
a fancy dress outfit because it makes them feel
sexy or powerful or scary on halloween yeah absolutely
fine That goes for puppets. That goes for walking
someone around on a leash, in my view. It's playing
dress up and putting yourself into a role because
it makes you feel good. These things might...
surprise people they might shock people they
might cause people to have questions but they're
not violating consent and part of the social
contract of existing in a public space is sometimes
people are just going to aggravate you someone
who hasn't had a shower in a couple of days gets
on the bus not very nice yeah someone is talking
loudly with their friend behind you in a queue
in a shop and oversharing about their dating
annoying not a violation of consent yeah like
kinky people are allowed to be a bit annoying
as well sometimes yeah yeah Which goes back to,
that is the point of Pride. Yeah. Is to be a
little bit annoying. This might feel like a bit
of a tangent. We love a tangent. Go for it. But
it's such a weird comparison to draw between
the Pride Mart, which in Newcastle currently
starts at the Civic Centre, walks down one side
of the City Centre, crosses the middle of the
City Centre, and then comes back up the other
side. Rolling road closures, police everywhere,
thousands and thousands of people thronging on
the streets. And everybody's fine with that.
But label it a... protest and everybody's suddenly
mad about it yeah and you're like the one of
those positions does not make sense and it's
that that it is the idea of pride isn't just
a nice little walk through the city center it
is a protest march yeah that is what it is and
yet everybody oh yeah the queers are out wandering
it's just a really weird comparison to to make
yeah It's kind of been defanged. Yeah, a little
bit. And I think that's where a lot of the pressure
from people within the queer community to sort
of sanitise Pride and remove kink from it comes
from is that desire to continue to defang Pride
because they want... the acceptability. They
want us to fully assimilate into straight culture.
They want Pride to be just a little bit of fun
with some rainbows and not think too hard about
what it means. And if you have someone turning
up in S &M gear or a block of people walking
in all leather, you start remembering what Pride
is about. It's about a protest defending our
sexualities. It's about sexuality. It's about
sex. And that's an uncomfortable topic, especially
for the British. We don't talk about sex here.
No. And they forget that a protest is supposed
to be a little bit uncomfortable sometimes. Yeah.
And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. You just imagine
it, though, can't you? If all of the Pride merchandise
and banners and stuff like that had sex is sex
on it. Which is what they're saying. Yeah. Which
is what the message is. But it's not the words
that they use. You know, you'd just be fucking
outraged, wouldn't they? Yeah. If you had Pride
sex is sex. you know accurate yes but there would
be outrage is there a weird little quirk in all
of this going back to the idea that pride actually
is about sexuality and sex part of the queer
community are asexual people yeah and asexuals
100 have a place at pride of course they do um
and i think asexuals you know usually not with
much of their involvement often get used as a
scapegoat for why we need to get rid of kink
at pride yeah but what about the asexuals they
can't handle seeing this you know there are definitely
asexuals who are sex repulsed and don't want
to see people have sex hear a lot of detail about
sex things like that but they are not these fragile
innocents who don't know that sex exists just
like anybody else they are capable of managing
their own boundaries moving away from someone
if they're having a conversation they don't want
to hear things like that and i think what a lot
of people forget is there are a fuck ton of asexuals
in the kink community yeah because kink is a
massive draw like again not to not to every asexual
by any means but if you don't experience sexual
attraction or you don't have an interest in sex
which also isn't the case for all asexuals there
are asexuals who do have sex they just it's the
lack of attraction um but yeah if sex isn't as
much of a focus for you or your primary draw
to a partner isn't sexual attraction, alternative
forms of intimacy and alternative kind of criteria
for finding a partner based on your compatibility
with what interests you can be very attractive
for people. And I've met a lot of asexuals in
the kink community because it gives them an alternative
form of intimacy, which can be really valuable.
And because the kink community is so accepting
as well. You say to someone, I want you to come
around and hit me, but I don't want to have sex.
They'll be like, yeah, cool. The majority of
the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same for aromantics.
You say, like, I'm looking for people to do kinky
play with. I want really close friends. I want
maybe to have people that I have sex with, but
I don't want a romantic relationship. A lot of
people in the rest of the world would sort of
look at you and go, but why? But in the kink
community, people are like, yeah, those are your
boundaries. Those are your limits. It's a much
more sort of fluid space. So a lot of asexuals
and aromantics are really active within kink.
And a lot of the people who are wanting to go.
to pride and express their kinky identity will
in fact be asexual yeah so it's it's not about
protecting people it's about using them as a
shield while also not actually doing very much
to include them most of the time a lot of people
will only mention asexuality when they want to
use it to demonize sexuality not when they want
to do anything for the asexual community yeah
yeah true you're right there is that really strong
parallel isn't it and it kind of echoes a similar
sort of debate that we've had about like kink
events about whether or not sex belongs at kink
events yeah and the same arguments are kind of
used i suppose it might be sometimes you talk
about people being triggered by it for trauma
related reasons yeah completely valid response
if that is the experience you've had um they
talk about asexual people people who don't experience
sexual attraction won't make them feel uncomfortable
and it's like do we know though do we know that
that's the case yeah and for some people it might
be but that's not a reason for everybody else
to adapt to fit some kind of hypothetical problem
yeah and there's a lot of ways that that could
be managed if people don't want to be around
expressions of sexuality there's a lot of ways
that that can be managed without so get rid of
it um you know newcastle pride i'm sure gets
about 100 000 people attending yeah However welcoming
of people expressing kink identities they are,
you are never going to be in a position where
every single space at Pride is full of people
expressing kink, wearing loads of fetish wear,
acting in their roles, things like that. It's
a huge crowd. You can simply move away from the
people that you don't vibe with and don't like
what they're doing. Yeah, yeah. And same with
kink events, unless a kink event is happening
in a single tiny little room that everyone's
crowded into. Yeah. If some people start having
sex and you don't want to look at it, you can
go to another room. It's okay. It's allowed.
You can leave. It's free and the cops can't stop
you. Yeah, you don't have to stay and watch it.
Although, did you not have an experience at Pride
where there were signs up saying no fetish wear
in this area or something? Yes, Mix. So this
made me so mad. And to be fair, it wasn't officially
done by Pride. Right. It was revealed afterwards.
So it was in... um there was a health and well
-being zone and i was volunteering like with
an organization there and when i went in to start
my shift someone had put a handwritten sign on
the outside of that zone saying a list of things
that weren't allowed in there um no smoking don't
bring alcohol in can't remember what else some
fairly reasonable requests for a health and well
-being zone yeah one of them was no fetish wear
right and i was signed up for a volunteering
slot wearing a latex crop top and a collar um
so i was just sort of like well i'm going in
and no one said anything like no one tried to
enforce it um and i saw some of the newcastle
leather men go in there not long after and it
was like ah it's fine it's fine like no no one's
doing anything about it but i took a picture
of the sign and because i'm a pain in the arse
and i had the the chair of pride at the time
on my facebook friends list i posted it on facebook
and tagged him and was like what's up with this
can you explain yourself oh no oh no and to be
fair he replied and was like that has not come
from us that's not official i will look into
it and and he got it taken down um but i sort
of jumped on it and was like you need to be doing
something about this more than just taking the
sign down quietly like you need to find out where
it came from make sure the person knows that's
not acceptable and you need to be giving some
kind of statement when you're organizing pride
that you welcome all expressions of queer identity
including like leather culture and other queer
kink and fetish communities at pride and then
he he just stopped responding oh no i guess i
guess he didn't He didn't publish said statement.
No, Mix, he did not. No. But at least the sign
got taken down. So that's good. But I was quite
annoyed about it. Yeah. I can well imagine knowing
who you are as a person. Particularly for the
health and wellbeing area as well. Yeah, yeah.
It's like this is where people go in to get HIV
testing, to pick up free condoms, to get advice
about their sexual health. There is stop smoking
support in there. There are drug and alcohol
services in there. There was a chem sex specific
stall in there. Like this is exactly where the
people who have got a really interesting sex
life should be going. Yeah. Because there's a
lot of information in there that could be relevant
to their particular risks and their needs. Yeah.
especially chem sex because that is that is part
of kink yeah yeah absolutely and particularly
like this was when pride wasn't in the city center
this has been it was up on on a big field um
the clothes you're wearing at pride tend to be
the clothes you have it's not like you can just
take them off get changed um i don't think they
would have liked you wandering in naked either
so there was nothing else that people could do
apart from either ignore the sign or stay out
of a zone that they really needed to have access
to yeah so that was not okay yeah Ridiculous.
And I believe there have been prides that have
attempted to ban fetish wear. And again, it often
comes from that place of conflating it with nudity
and sex acts. They're like, you can't wear something
here that is sort of sexualized clothing. Yeah.
It's like, how do you define that? Are you going
to say the same thing to the twink in the booty
shorts? Yeah. Like people wear stuff they feel
sexy in at pride. Yeah. Regardless of whether
they're kinky or not. And it fails the test because
you wander down the big market on a Saturday
night. there will be people wearing outfits which
are designed to make them feel sexy and look
sexy as well. Yeah. That's what people do. Yeah,
absolutely. It's like a false equivalence, isn't
it? Yeah. Like, well, that version of sexy is
okay, but that one isn't. Yeah, and you don't
really see anywhere near the level of criticism
of that at Pride. Like, there will be a lot of,
I sort of joke about twinks in booty shorts,
but my God, you will see a lot of twinks in booty
shorts. Of course you will. Lots of guys walking
around shirtless. Yeah, absolutely. Like lots
of people displaying their bodies in ways that
make them feel sexy and confident and attract
sexual attention. People who are actively there
on the pole, people who just want to show off.
Like people are dressing in provocative and sexualized
ways. And unless they're actually naked, no one
goes after them in the same way as they do for
someone who's actually pretty modestly dressed
in latex. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely agree. I think
the other thing that often gets people's backs
up and why people can be a little bit funny about
kink at Pride is people have a real fear of people
conflating kink and queer identities into the
same thing. And that extends to poly to a large
extent as well, like polyamory. Right. Because
there are various sort of kink related pride
flags. There's like a rubber one. There's a general
BDSM one. There's a leather pride flag. Polly
community have their own pride flag. People get
their backs up about that a lot as well, saying
that this means that people are trying to make
that part of the LGBTQIA+. It's like, are we
putting a K in there? Are we putting a P in there
for Polly as well? And I think it's quite rare
that you will find kinky people or poly people
saying like, no, this counts as queer. This in
itself makes me queer. What you will find is
people saying we are all communities that are
being marginalized on the basis of our perceived
deviance and on the basis of how we have sex
and how we conduct our relationships. So that
gives us some things in common. And we could
support each other. I think kinky people and
poly people could learn a lot from how the queer
community has gone about fighting for their rights.
And it's often one of my frustrations in kink
community that a lot of people don't learn those
lessons. And they're like, none of us should
come out because it's dangerous. It's like, that's
exactly why we need more people to come out.
There are people who... who are sort of learning
those lessons and are having more fulfilled lives
because of it and gaining progress for our communities
because of it and recognizing where a lot of
the hatred that is directed at queer people and
kinky people and poly people all comes from is
from conservativism and purity culture and misogyny
and oppositional sexism the idea that men and
women are opposites and this needs to be enforced
through threat and oppression yeah um all of
us are being screwed over by that exact same
system and we are a lot stronger together than
we are separate that doesn't mean that there
needs to be a k in the lgbt yeah but it means
that maybe we can be their weird cousin and hang
out yeah yeah Yeah, the weird little gremlin
in a collar and on a leash in the corner. Yeah,
they're with us. Yeah. And there's so much crossover
as well. Like, there are people who are in one
of those three groups and not the others, 100%.
But... So many people I've met take all three
boxes, queer, kinky, poly, or some form of non
-monogamous. There is so much overlap between
the three. And keeping the communities miles
apart so that we don't get any kind of dirt rubbing
off on us by association is just throwing those
people under the bus where they're having to
sort of put on different masks to hang out with
their non -monogamous friends, their queer friends,
and then their kinky friends. Yeah, yeah. Instead
of going, no, like... We have some overlap. Let's
respect that. Let's recognise it. Let's celebrate
it. And let's all get on. Yeah. While still allowing
people to say, yeah, I'm queer and poly, but
none of the bondage shit for me, thanks. Yeah,
yeah. People can opt out, but it shouldn't be
so hard to opt in. No, you're right. And let's
be honest. Some of the best people are queer,
kinky, non -monogamous, neurodivergent people.
Yeah. They are generally my favourite people.
Yeah. They're mint. So I had lots to say about
that. But something I skimmed over a little bit
is I acknowledge there is a place for children
and young people at Pride. Yes. And then we started
talking about how great it is that there's loads
of openly, proudly sexual deviant behaviour going
on at Pride. So that seems like a tricky balance
to get right. So what about the kids mix? Well,
what about the kids? Leave them at home. is my
general response to any question about children,
to be fair. You can see that this is a podcast
with one vasectomy and one tubal ligation here.
Yeah, yeah. Other people's kids are fine. I just
don't want one in my house. Yeah. A bit like
dogs. No, the dog lovers will come for you. I
don't have anything against dogs. I just don't
want them in my house. I think it is a... as
we jest yes but it is a it is a really it is
a really important thing to think about and i
i have to confess that as much as i agree with
every single thing that you have just said about
kink at pride i think absolutely think all of
the communities that we've talked about belong
not just belong at pride but should be celebrated
and elevated at pride I can imagine that it is
an absolute fucking nightmare for the people
who organise Pride to get that balance right.
Because whether we like it or not, it has moved
away from being the protest that it started as.
It is marketing itself as a more family friendly
environment, which is a good thing because a
lot of kids are queer. Yeah. You know. And a
lot of queer people have kids. And a lot of queer
people have kids. So they need a place where
they can do that together. Yeah. So I can really
see. the the tension in in all of that of how
do you get that balance right and i think the
mistake that we make is by making that pride's
problem to solve in a way i think pride's pride
the organization has a job to create a space
where everybody feels welcome, that is inclusive,
that is supportive and celebratory and what it
doesn't do quite so much and carries the message
of what Pride is about. Yeah. The people who
attend Pride have a responsibility about how
they act in that space. So just as we said that
kinky queer people who attend Pride have a responsibility
not to peg their partner on Northumberland Street.
i think that's valid yeah yeah i have a responsibility
not to grab you by the throat and start slapping
you around on um percy street yeah outside the
civic center you know that's my responsibility
as a kinky queer person there is a responsibility
on the people who aren't part of the kinky community
to manage themselves a little bit and go well
i'm gonna see some stuff today because i'm a
pride So I'm going to see some stuff today. But
also, if we're thinking about the kids, there's
a responsibility on the people who are with those
kids to have a conversation about it and not
go to outrage about it. So if someone wanders
past, you know, you gave the example earlier
on, you know, kind of people in latex and pop
hoods. I saw tons of those as part of the march
last year. Someone walks past and a child goes,
what's that about? I go, well, they're playing
dress up. because it makes them feel good and
they're happy and they're enjoying themselves
and they're expressing their identity and stuff
like that I think sometimes we kind of this is
going to sound silly because we're talking about
children we infantilize children no i fully get
you and i agree we assume that they can't handle
having any answers to their questions well actually
if they're asking the questions they're probably
ready to hear at least some version of the answer
it doesn't need to be the the full ins and outs
of oh you've asked why that guy's wearing all
leather i'm going to tell you the entire history
of the leather community and everything that
they might get up and up to in the bedroom yeah
that's not the answer the child needs yeah but
telling the child yeah like some parts of the
gay community um really have this sense of unity
and they all like to dress in this way so they
can recognize each other and they really like
these kind of textures of fabrics and that makes
them feel good yeah fine that'll do a bit like
when we go to scouts then you know it's that
sort of vibe to it of and i think you know at
the same time we run the risk of infantilizing
children which still feels like an oxymoron.
They're also children and children will accept
the reality with which they are presented. Yeah.
So if we just say, yeah, that's what some people
do and they're having a good time and they're
not hurting anybody and it's fine. They're not
going to be like, no, that's an outrage and pride.
They're going to be like, all right. Yeah. Can
I have an ice cream? You know? Yeah. We kind
of overcomplicate it a lot of the time and we
pass off the responsibility to other people.
it's like kink doesn't belong at pride pride
should do something about that no you need to
do something about your own opinion and if your
kids are asking questions you need to answer
them yeah I think as well, there's an element
of, you can definitely answer questions that
kids would have about pretty much any expression
of kink at Pride without discussing sex at all,
because a lot of it is not sexual or not overtly
sexual. But also, I think if you're going to
take your kids to a celebration of sexuality
and sexual diversity, you have to make your peace
with having some conversations that might touch
on sex a little bit at some point. Yeah, yeah.
Because that's kind of the point. Again, it doesn't
need to be anything that is like age and... inappropriate
and really sexually explicit but acknowledging
that the reason that these events exist is because
sexuality was criminalized and discriminated
against and people were subject to violence because
of their sexuality again love is really important
we love marriage equality but that is not what
pride started for pride started because people
couldn't go out and find someone to have sex
with without being beaten half to death by cops
yeah that's why we have pride um and you maybe
don't need to say it in those terms to a kid
No. But talking about the fact that, you know,
once kids are old enough to have any level of
sex education, they know that that's a thing
adults do. And acknowledging that pride is about
the right for people to experience that with
the people that they care about and that they
find attractive, not the people that society
says they should, is an important conversation
to have. Yeah, I totally agree. And you kind
of put yourself in the position of the queer
kids who are there and the risk of the negative
reaction to people who are visibly kinky. not
doing kinky things but just being visibly kinky
that negative reaction to that group of people
that queer is that queer kid gonna sit there
and go well if you think that about that group
of deviants who are represented at pride what
do you think about me yeah kind of thing there's
that risk that it starts to rub off and actually
you start the the queer kids start to shrink
into themselves yeah a little bit it's like you
can you can be gay but don't be a Don't be that
kind of queer. Yeah. It's very much the vibe.
And you do get that from a lot of people who
have LGBT kids where they're like, I'm fine with
my son growing up and getting married to a man
and adopting two children and they get a dog.
But I don't want him going to Pride and taking
his shirt off and wearing the tiny little hot
pants. I don't want him wearing leather. I don't
want him going to a gay bar and hooking up with
four guys in the toilets. It's like... I know
you don't want to think about your kid in that
situation, but if you can't accept your kid exploring
themselves in the ways that feel authentic to
them, all you're doing is putting up a wall between
you. Yeah. When they're an adult. I'm not saying
they should go do all those things when they're
14. No. But at some point in their life, they
probably are going to do some of those things.
Yeah, yeah. And you have to let go. Yeah. No,
I agree. I agree. One of the solutions that Pride
seems to have come up with is the concept of
family zones. Yeah. and how do you how does that
sit with with you there's there's a lot of good
ideas in it i think especially if you're a family
taking young kids they can get really burned
out by how loud and busy pride is really quickly
and neurodivergent kids as well so family zones
often double as a bit of a quiet zone and they'll
sometimes have a quiet zone as well but the family
zone will often have less like loud music and
crowds and stuff in it um kids being able to
do activities and meet other children there can
be really good and i think how do i feel about
if they were to completely ban any visible fetish
wear from those areas i think that's where it
gets into a gray area i think a parent who wears
an eternity collar should be allowed in yeah
i don't think it's necessarily super helpful
for someone wearing tiny little latex thong and
not much else to be going in there yeah there's
maybe a bit of a common sense that needs to apply
here it's true are you in here for the right
reasons or are you just trying to be shocking
and i don't think many people would push that
i think most kinky people are so we are so conscious
of the fact that people act like we're a threat
to children by default like yeah yeah no one's
going to be going around and making a spectacle
of themselves in the family zone yeah if there's
someone wearing some subtle fetish wear in there
they're probably in there because they're a parent
or carer yeah and i suppose that's Where my head
was going as well is where would you draw the
line with that? It's like, leather men have kids
too. Yeah. And they're not going to go to Pride.
They're not going to turn up at Pride not in
full leather. Probably not, no. Because that's
what they do. Yeah. You know? So I think you're
right. I think there has to be a common sense
approach to it. But it would be really easy,
wouldn't it, to draw the line in the wrong place?
Yeah. A bit like the sign at the health and wellbeing
zone which said... you know no fetish wear well
that that rules out every single member of the
leather community then doesn't it yeah really
is that is that the message is that the message
we want to send yeah and i think that's where
clarity and education are so important because
if people don't understand anything about the
various intersecting kink and fetish communities
then in their head the person who gets fisted
in the middle of the street is the same person
as the person who's wearing a subtle collar yeah
and they are not those are not the same behaviors
they don't need to be managed in the same way
um there is a huge spectrum of different things
and if people don't know about that spectrum
they are just going to stick up a sign that says
no fetish wear where actually they might say
um we don't want kind of excessive skin exposure
in the family zone don't come in here in your
tiny, tiny, skimpy little outfit. We don't want
anything with sexualized slogans on it. We don't
want anything that is scary to children. So maybe
you don't come in with like gas masks on, for
example. But if you are wearing a collar, if
you're wearing some leather, if you're wearing
like latex leggings or whatever, that's fine
because they're just clothes. Yeah. They're just
alternative clothes at that point. Yeah. And
I suppose it's common sense in both directions,
isn't it? It's common sense expectations of the
people who are running the family sign. but also
a common sense response from the people who were
there. Yeah. Because you're right. Even if you
are a parent, I suppose, if you wander into the
family's home in a tiny little thong and a pup
hood, you kind of have to wonder what the motivation
for that might be. Yeah, if you're taking your
kids to Pride, maybe you do need to tone it down
a little bit so that you can hang out with them
appropriately. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like...
It's thinking about the kind of pride experience
you want to have and dressing appropriately to
the experience you want to have and accepting
that that might shut you out of some experiences.
So, for example, a lot of the people that I know
through the LGBT network at my job go to pride
together representing the business. Now, that's
not something I personally want to do anyway,
because I'm not a big fan of sort of going representing
your employer at pride. That kind of corporate
pride thing just isn't for me. Yeah. But if it
wasn't for. What I get from Pride and what I
go to Pride to get from Pride. I would probably
meet up with them for a little bit. Like, not
march with them, but hang out with them a bit
on the day. As it is, like, I don't want the
pressure of having to look good representing
my employer at Pride. So I don't mix. I don't
blur those lines. Yeah, yeah. If I was a parent,
I would have some decisions to make about, okay,
this means if I'm taking my kids to Pride and
taking them into the family zone, I maybe don't
get to really fly my freak flag today. I've got
to, like, just... tone it down just a little
bit yeah um and that's the decision that you
make and you you have some responsibility for
that yeah i think that's i think that's totally
fair i i do think it's a little bit of a shame
though because i would have loved to have seen
the look on the senior person's face when you
turned up in your pig harness and tiny little
shorts last year. That would have been massively
entertaining. It would. I mean, my employer is
very supportive and very open to a lot of the
things I do, but I think that might be where
they'd drawn the line. If I turned up and was
like, can I hold the banner with the logo on?
They'd be like, no, not in that. No, please.
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I've only ever
been to two Prides, but I think I have a similar
sort of perspective on it as well. I work for
a very different employer in a very different
sector to you, but I would feel really uneasy
even going as I do, which is relatively tame.
Yeah. I don't really fly my freak flag when I
go to Pride, but I would feel a little bit uneasy
about marching with my employer at Pride because
that's not what it's about for me. Yeah. I work
in a sector where I think there is probably a
little bit less. the motivation for it is probably
a little bit less kind of queer washing than
some of the other companies that go there yeah
so i think there is genuinely that pride in diversity
and supporting kind of queer members of our workforce
i think that is probably coming from a more good
place yeah it's for some of the others but it
still makes me feel uneasy to do it yeah there's
always an interesting sort of There's two motivations
going on, I think, a lot of the time, where the
motivation of the company for encouraging that
happening and sending loads of branded stuff
and creating loads of sort of freebies that people
can give out on Pride and stuff is absolutely,
it's a PR move. And that doesn't mean they don't
care. There's still individuals high up in big
companies who probably do really care and might
even be LGBT themselves. But no company does
anything that isn't profitable. And that's why
they're doing it. The people who actually march
representing the company often... and my experience
within sort of big corporations, is it is almost
exclusively LGBT people who are really active
within things like staff networks, providing
support to staff, things like that. And they
want to show pride in what they do within their
employer. Yeah. The hard work they put in above
and beyond their day job to support sometimes
quite vulnerable people within the workforce.
And I really, I understand that. And I've had
my perspective shifted a little bit on corporate
pride because I used to be very much like, no,
that is... bad and stupid and i can't get on
board with it and then i got involved in in a
staff network and realized how passionate some
of my colleagues are about that for completely
the right reasons yeah so even though it's not
something i want to participate in myself i'm
a bit less cynical about it than i used to be
yeah um i don't like it when it overrides pride
so when pride is so heavily sponsored that the
first thing you see at the front of the march
and the first thing you see on every post that
i make is some corporate sponsor it's like you
need to learn when to say no to your sponsors
yeah but a certain amount of it i think is an
inevitable part of the way that lgbt rights have
moved forward and we've become more accepted
is now showing support to us is something that
is in company's favor not detriment and that
is something to celebrate regardless of some
of the stuff that goes around it like yeah yeah
that is good um and people being able to celebrate
positive stuff they're doing for lgbt people
within their work is really good i think we should
always stay a little bit cynical though because
we know that the vast majority of these companies
would disappear the second it started costing
them rather than gaining for them yeah of course
they would and and several already have there
are companies that used to be major sponsors
of many many prides that have now pulled out
of them because of the decisions that they have
made regarding trans staff for example yeah which
has made them either no longer welcome at pride
or attracted a lot of heat and criticism to them
when they go to pride so they simply pulled their
money and walked yeah yeah yeah which should
be a warning to us all Yeah, I would completely
agree. A lot of what we've talked about around
the controversy, in very big air quotes, around
kink at pride and the impact that it has on the
kids, pity the poor children, is kind of fuelled
by the media. Media do love a moral panic. They
do. And especially in this social media age where
people will post images and video of... what
apparently happens at pride and some of it is
quite explicit yeah um so it's it's easy to see
how that kind of moral panic spreads because
you see an image you go well this is what happens
at pride Well, all the prizes should be banned
then and all these kinky perverts should be locked
up. But actually, it isn't an accurate representation
of what happens at the vast majority of Pride
events. No. And it makes it really hard sort
of defending kink at Pride. Because when I say
kink is welcome at Pride, what I'm talking about
is collars, hoods, leather, latex, maybe a person
on a leash. Yeah. That kind of thing. Yeah. But
when I say... I support kink at Pride, what a
lot of people hear is, so that one video of a
guy getting fisted in the street, you're cool
with that in front of children, right? Which
I am not. And about 98, 99 % of the time, if
you see a video of an explicit sex act or explicit
BDSM or even full frontal nudity at what appears
to be a Pride event, what you're looking at is
a photo from Folsom Street Fair. Right. Which
is something that happens, I believe, alongside
Pride. It's sort of Pride adjacent, but it is
in a fenced off part of the city. There's like
gated entrance where you need a ticket to go
in. To buy a ticket, you have to be over 18.
You will be ID'd. You will have to know what
you're signing up for. They will tell you very
clearly what you're signing up for. And it is
an S &M and leather focused Pride event. Right.
So it is essentially a big like... pride vibe
play party is my understanding right and Folsom
is in San Francisco it is yes mix yeah so I think
and I could be wrong on this but I think it happens
around the same time as San Francisco pride right
um but it is it's its own event it is separate
from pride um but with obviously some people
who would also go to pride will also go to that
yeah But if you go in there, you know exactly
what you're signing up for. No one is going to
see anything that they haven't agreed they're
going to see. It's the same as us going to a
kink event, just on a much larger scale. Yeah.
And outside. And outside, yeah. So although things
are happening in the street, it is not at a time
where the street is accessible to the general
public. Yeah. So out of context, images and videos
from Folsom go viral every now and again and
go, oh my God, look at what's happening at Pride.
And that is not what's happening at Pride. The
remaining 1 % to 2 % of the time there's a panic
like this. you will see an image of someone who
has done something inappropriate at Pride that
no one is supporting them in doing. The Pride
is not allowing them to do. They have just probably
got a bit too drunk and they are irresponsible
and they've decided to flash a camera or grab
their partner and do something that's crossing
a line in a public place. That is not representative
of the kink community as a whole and probably
not representative of those people's best selves.
It's not telling you anything about what we're
talking about when we're talking about kink at
Pride. Yeah. And when you say crossing a line,
you mean it's crossing a line, whether it's Pride
or whether it's an average Tuesday afternoon.
Yes, exactly. It is stuff that is illegal to
do. Yeah. Anytime. Yes. Yeah. And is actually
disregarding bystander consent in the form of
what that should mean, where it's involving people
in someone else's sex lives without their consent
or in some cases knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. Is there
a similar sort of event? In the UK? There, as
far as I know, isn't currently. If I'm wrong
on that, someone please tell me because I want
to go. But there has been an S &M Pride in the
UK before. Right. That started in response to
Operation Spanner. Right. So this was back in
1990, I want to say. I believe the case started
in the late 80s. And several gay men were arrested,
charged, and ultimately most of them went to
prison for consensual S &M. sadomasochism um
they had filmed some of the things that they'd
done and were initially swept up as part of a
police operation trying to crack down on obscenity
so um porn pornographic materials that broke
obscenity law and then ended up being prosecuted
largely for the acts of violence which were considered
to be not defensible by saying they were consensual
right um and in response to that there was an
snm pride event that was set up i don't think
it ran for very long unfortunately um as often
happens with any kind of movements trying to
fight for kinky rights the momentum goes out
of it because it is so much easier for people
to live a closeted life than it is for people
to live with being called perverts on the front
page of the newspapers every day yeah and we
we tend to fold as a community yeah i still keep
living in hope that that will change in my lifetime
but yeah no one really wants to get on board
with the the fight i mean i'm too old for activism
to be fair i was literally just saying yeah i'm
too fucking old for activism but if someone starts
an snm pride i will go and i will get involved
and i will help um because because it's important
um we do need a movement of that of our own whether
we call it pride or whether we call it something
else and we see a lot more call it shame Oh my
God, I would love that. And you definitely see
it more with queer kinky people because they
often do see the fight for their rights as a
queer person and their fight for their rights
as a sexual being in general to be very tangled
up together and hard to separate out from each
other. Yeah. So in those places where the two
communities intersect is where you do see more
pushback against oppression and where you do
get people wanting to express themselves more
publicly. But... I think the straight kinky community
often has a hard time relinquishing their privilege
to get on board with that, where actually we
would all be so much stronger and all much better
protected if we did. Which leads to a really
interesting question, doesn't it, then? Do straight
kinky people belong at Pride? I would say yes,
Mix, but in the same way that I think all straight
people should go to at least one Pride. Yeah?
As allies. As allies, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think...
Like I touched on earlier, it's really important
that we don't conflate kinky identity and queer
identity. They have a lot of crossover. There
are a lot of people with a foot in each camp.
And we have a lot of shared fights in common.
But we're not the same. And when people do try
to lump them together, which, as I said, is quite
rare, you find that straight people often don't
really know how to mesh into queer community
in that way without causing more harm than good.
Having us as two separate but intersecting communities
who support each other, I think, is a lot more
healthy. But I think it's important for straight
allies to be welcome at Pride. They shouldn't
ever be the priority. They're not the people
that Pride is for. No. But they should be welcome
and they should be encouraged to go because that's
how you demystify queer identity. That's how
you learn. That's how you connect with people
as people instead of just seeing them as this
other, even if it's another you see in a very
positive way. Yeah. it's better to have those
authentic connections and going to Pride can
be a really good part of that. So I like seeing,
and I like taking straight kinky people along
to Pride with me. And I think they should be
allowed to express Pride in those elements of
their sexuality, in any elements of their sexuality,
as long as it's not, but look at me, but make
it all about me. Yeah. I suppose it goes back
to that, what we were talking about earlier on,
where it's like, do we need to be adding a K
and a P to the LGBTQIA plus? acronym and the
answer is no probably not no but it's great that
you're here yeah you know yeah but it must be
really you know not to not to send straight people
i suppose but it must be a really strange space
to occupy yeah because you are as a kinky person
marginalized but as a straight person massively
privileged yeah and that must be quite I can
imagine that's quite a challenging space to navigate.
Yeah, definitely. And how you actually, like
how you perform allyship in that way. Like if
you're kind of switched on and thinking about
it, it could get quite confusing and complicated.
Definitely. And I think the frustrating thing
about that situation is that kink wouldn't be
marginalised if the people who had the most privilege
would stand up and fight for it. Um, I mean,
just to take CNC as an example, 60 % of women
have rape fantasies, 62%. Yeah. Stand up and
say it and see how long the stigma around that
persists. Yeah. But no one wants to give up the
privilege to do it. You apply the same to every
other kink and fetish. Like if you combine us
all together, we're probably a majority, but
most of us are existing in the shadows because
no one is prepared to give up that very fragile.
privilege that they're able to hide behind. And
that could be taken away the second someone leaks
your Pornhub history. The second that someone
takes a photo of you at an event. The second
that a vindictive partner... breaks up with you
and posts private photos on the internet or even
just tells people what you're into like people
are hiding behind this privilege thinking it
will protect them and it won't when it comes
down to it especially in the digital age we're
losing more and more privacy every day with advancements
in ai and hacking and all of this like all of
our privacy could just be gone overnight and
people are so scared to lose that illusion of
privilege that they end up condemning all of
us yeah um so what i would like to see straight
people doing not just at pride in general is
being a bit fucking weirder to make it easier
for the rest of us yeah yeah yeah using your
privilege for good rather than evil yeah and
just just self -interest yeah use it for self
-interest as well though because like daddy starmer
is coming for your porn Yeah, yeah. Like, stand
the fuck up. Because it's not just the perverts
now. It is all of us. We are all in this together.
And if people don't start learning some shit
from Pride and learning some shit from the queer
community, we are all fucked. Yeah, yeah. Daddy
Starmer made me feel a bit sick. I thought it
would. That's a bit much. Well, if everyone would
stop licking his boots all the time, we wouldn't
have to call him. We wouldn't have this problem.
No, you're right. There is something... There's...
Blah. You were going to say there's something
really interesting about, weren't you, Mick?
I was. And I stopped myself because I say it
a lot. I might call the episode Daddy Starmer
is coming for your porn. No, because it's about
pride. I know. It used to be pride related, but
that is a great episode title. I wonder if that
will change over time, though. That idea of kink
being something that should be closeted and something
that should be quiet. And I wonder whether it
is the history of that, the root of that, is
coming from people who have privilege. Yeah.
And actually, even in the relatively short period
of time that I've been present in our local community,
the representation of people who are queer has
really increased. I think my perception is that
it's increased. Lots of... There's been a bit
of an influx, isn't there, of queerer people
into the community that I've noticed. So I wonder
whether that perception of how kinky people should
be will change over time as the demographic.
changes and some of that kind of older guard
who've had more privilege um moves on yeah i
don't know hopefully i'm i'm conscious that there
has always been a lot of queer people in the
kink community but not enough of us to do it
alone yeah and i i fear that may still be the
case um But I think things are changing. I think
as we have less and less ability to maintain
our privacy and as the government stamps down
harder and harder on sexual freedom and expression,
there will come a tipping point because there
has to. You can only push people so far. I just
feel like the point where we were pushed too
far was probably Operation Spanner and we should
have kicked off then and never stopped kicking
off. Yeah. And it's frustrating that we don't
understand the fear. And I understand that when
people have some elements of privilege, it's
hard to let go of. I think in some ways it's
easier when you're a very visibly queer person
like me. And I've never really had, normality
was never an option. Yeah. That was never a thing
that I could do. Even when I tried to fake being
normal, I was terrible at it. So I've never had
that option. And I think if you have, it's very
hard to let go of. Yeah, that's fair. And I think
that to an extent that's true for me. Because
I'm not obviously queer. When you look at me.
You are if you keep sticking your dick in me
mix. Well yeah. Yes. That's fair. But like if
you encountered me on the street. Yeah. Well
I am not sticking my dick in you. Because I wouldn't
do that in the street. No. Then kind of. Don't
get read as queer. Because I don't look it. I
look like a. boring 46 year old man nearly 47
by the time this episode comes out i will be
47 you will yeah i look like a boring 47 year
old man i think sometimes we get very into the
complexities of oppression and marginalization
and identity and micro labels and sometimes lose
sight of the the very at a very basic level what
is often going on is a clash between conservatism
and progressivism like people Those are the two
sides. And within that, there are loads and loads
of splintering and fractures on both sides and
infighting and drama and chaos. But ultimately,
what queer people are largely fighting against
is, like we talked about at the start, oppositional
sexism, purity culture, fear of sexuality, repression,
all of that. And that's something that kinky
people need to learn from. And that's also what
people are missing when people who consider themselves
progressive on the left, feminist, they're part
of the queer community, start trying to push
kink out of pride is they often fall into the
trap of using badly reheated conservative arguments.
So one of the big ones that we talked about earlier
is the idea of I don't consent to seeing that.
I don't consent to seeing someone engaging in
their kink or fetish in a public place. And there
is a point where that's valid. Like we said,
if you are actually getting fisted in a public
place, don't do that. But that same argument
has been applied to trans people. And that's
been a big part of what trans people have had
to fight against for our liberation is the idea
that particularly trans women, but it has been
applied to trans people as a whole. were engaging
in a fetish the idea that a trans woman is the
same as a cross -dresser and a cross -dresser
is inherently doing it for fetish reasons and
yeah lumping that all into one so saying that
seeing someone that you perceive as a man wearing
women's clothing is being exposed to a fetish
without your consent then gets applied blanket
across trans women casting them as predators
casting them as sexually aggressive just for
identifying and presenting as themselves um And
people who will say that they're all for trans
rights and will really push back against that
argument will then turn it around towards other
people. Not seeing the irony there. Yeah. And
another one is when I talk about coming out as
kinky, about having pride in my kink identity,
about being really open about it with people,
including like family and co -workers. People
immediately put that into the box of oversharing,
being inappropriate, sexual harassment, talking
about your sex life to people who don't want
to hear it. Yeah. And that same argument gets
applied to particularly to... queer people like
to gay and lesbian people yeah um saying that
if you talk about having a boyfriend when you're
a man or a girlfriend when you're a woman that
you are talking about your sex life and people
don't want to hear it and like i've got no problem
with the gays as long as they keep it private
and behind closed doors don't shove it in my
face yeah yeah but the thing is someone saying
i've got a boyfriend is not inherently sexual
it might be implied that he's probably fucking
him but yeah yeah but he's not saying that no
and me saying i have a dominant or I'm in a power
exchange relationship, is also telling you nothing
about my sex life, I'm more than happy to tell
people about my sex life, as the 40 -odd episodes
of this podcast will demonstrate. But I can also
have a conversation about my identity as a submissive
that has nothing to do with sex at all. Those
are the conversations I have with work. Those
are quite a lot of the conversations I have with
family. I mean, me and my family don't have the
best boundaries, so sometimes it does get a little
overshary. That is true. But it doesn't have
to. That's to do with the comfort level of the
people involved in those conversations. So I
think some of the pushback about kink at Pride
comes from, firstly, the misunderstanding, thinking
that Pride has nothing to do with sex when it
absolutely does. But also assuming that any expression
of your sexual identity at Pride is telling people
about your sex life or showing people your sex
life. Where wearing a collar or a pup hood or
leather or any other way that people express
their kink identity is telling you about who
they are and how they connect with people. It
doesn't tell you anything about what they do
in the bedroom. You can maybe make a few educated
guesses, but they are still just guesses. Still
just guesses. And it doesn't pass that test that
you outlined earlier on of you wouldn't have
that response to a vanilla heterosexual couple.
Yeah. Holding hands, kissing, referring to each
other as boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or
wife. More than that. A vanilla heterosexual
couple can come into the office in front of their
big boss and say, we're trying for a baby. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. That is telling you about their sex
life. And I'm not against it. Like, absolutely
be excited about your life moving forward and
the things you're doing in your relationship
and starting a family. That's great. But that
is telling you a lot more about their sex life
than anything I've ever said in a professional
environment. Yeah, yeah. Big pregnancy celebrations
and announcements. Yeah. Yeah, we fucked. Yeah.
Raw. Raw. I've never told anyone at my workplace
that. Yeah. Yeah. Breathe me, daddy. Not Daddy
Starmer. No. Well, he definitely fucking is,
isn't he? But no, you're right. I think that's,
it's been, I think one of the most interesting
things about this whole episode has been kind
of thinking through that test of what if it was
a vanilla heterosexual couple? Yeah. What can
they, what could they get away with? Yeah. That
is not, air quotes acceptable at pride yeah and
it's nuts even like engagement and marriage is
another big one which is telling the legal definition
of marriage includes consummation in this country
at least yeah if you tell people you're getting
married you're at least telling them you're intending
to have sex if you tell people you've got married
yeah if your marriage is legal you're telling
them that you've had sex yeah and we consider
that appropriate and it is but yeah accepting
that humans are sexual beings and sometimes when
they let you into their life and tell you the
things that matter to them that there will be
an implication that some of that means they might
have done some sexy things with another person
and that's okay yeah we need to make our peace
with that and and it is that very british thing
of but we don't acknowledge sex but sometimes
you gotta yeah yeah yeah and sometimes you do
because they come in going i'm having a baby
is he good in bed i think a lot of this as well
and it's a separate set of arguments from the
kink at pride arguments but it is definitely
a connected set of arguments where people say
that engaging in kinks and fetishes or watching
porn or being a horny pervert deviant in any
way is an unfeminist act and they talk about
how women who participate things are being pressured
into it by the patriarchy and men who participate
in these things are motivated by misogyny it's
a massive oversimplification for a start because
it's making a sort of baseline assumption that
all of this is about acts of sort of eroticized
violence by men against women and kink is a much
wider spectrum than that um but it's also starting
from a baseline that is actually just pure purity
culture misogyny that women aren't horny if a
woman is horny about something then she's been
brainwashed by a man to do it or she's doing
it to please a man and like that is fucked yeah
that is absolute misogyny but if people frame
it in a feminist enough way then no one calls
that out um and i think the same sort of logic
applies to a lot of the arguments against kink
at pride is that it hinges on casting like the
good queers as pure unsexual beings who are just
here for the love and the equal marriage yeah
and and the rainbows and the glitter yeah party
in the park and maybe two bottles of wine um
and it wants to parcel off queer sexuality because
it's messy and inconvenient and damages our credibility
to the public but in doing that they're just
reinforcing the same idea that queer sexuality
is deviant and disgusting and needs to be pushed
underground yeah allowing liberation for some
of us on the condition that they completely de
-sex themselves is not liberation it's just more
oppression with more complicated steps yeah it's
that really stereotypical gay trope isn't it
kind of little blonde twink who's good with the
gossip and always tells you how fabulous you
look and good really good dress sense and all
of that kind of stuff that's the acceptable version
of queer um it's a little bit frustrating that
that's what is presented to us and what is how
queer people are represented in so much media
as that kind of sexless stereotype yeah and that's
the only thing that's acceptable yeah definitely
Fuck them. So this is your encouragement to this
Pride season. Be a horny, deviant pervert. Whatever
that looks like for you. And if you're not a
horny, deviant pervert and you would prefer not
to be, we support you as well. But just be your
weirdest self. Do not let anyone put you in a
box. Yep. And if you see the horny, deviant perverts
at Pride, go and tell them they look great. Yeah.
They will love it. If you give a leather man
a compliment on his leather or a leather woman
a compliment on her leather, they will lose their
minds. They will. They will be really, really
pleased. Yeah. And just on that kind of finish
where we started or I think I started, which
is it is always so joyous. You know, I've only
been to two. So, you know, whenever I go to Pride.
But it is always joyous to see the Leathermen
just knocking about the city centre. Yeah. You
know, first time, first Pride we went to, we
were sitting in Wetherspoons outside the Civic
Centre in Newcastle. And there was a few of them
in the pub just sitting and waiting. And it just
made me so happy. Yeah. Because it's like, that's
where it started. Yes. So you should be right
down the front. Big fucking flag leading off
the march. Not some fucking company. 100 % agree.
Good. I think we're all done then. I think we
are, yes. That was a really interesting start
to our Pride month. run of episodes yes i'm very
excited for the rest of them yep okay bye thanks
for listening to this week's episode of don't
scare the newbies you can support us on patreon
for a whole extra episode every month and head
to carizal .com for my blog and links to everywhere
else you can follow me see you next time