Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizal,
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S. Carizal's Dominant, who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today it's another kinky
movie night. This time we're talking about Crash.
Just hit me with your car! You stole my line!
So, crash. Crash. For clarity, the 1996 crash,
because there's been a more recent crash and
people getting those two confused sometimes causes
problems in their lives. I don't know what the
other one is about, but probably. I'm not sure
either, but I think it was an Oscar winner or
Oscar nominated and doesn't involve people having
sex in car crashes mix. So if people downloaded
the wrong one, they got a bit of an upset sometimes,
I think. Yes, I can well imagine they did. There
were similar confusions with the pianist and
the piano teacher. with the same problems because
the piano teacher is fucked up. Right. I don't
think I've ever heard of that film. We will have
to watch it sometime for a kinky movie night.
Is that a kinky movie night movie? There you
go. It's a sadomasochistic movie anyway. Right.
It's not about consensual kink. No. But it's
interesting. Excellent. That's all the best things
you usually have. So yes, Crash. Why? Why did
we watch Crash? Well, Mix, I mean, you agreed
to this, even though you'd seen it before and
already knew you weren't a big fan. Yeah. But
I wanted us to do something different next because
we've, so far for the movies we've talked about,
we've done Fifty Shades, we've done Pillion and
we've done Secretary. Yes. All very different
movies that we had different sort of views and
reactions to, but they are all about power exchange
relationships. Yeah. They're about a couple exploring
BDSM, sometimes better than others. Yes. And
done better than others. Yes. Yeah. Where Crash
is about kink or fetishism in a very, very different
way. It's not about power exchange. It's about
people who are turned on by car crashes, which
is totally different. Plus, I'd never seen it
before. No, so it's always interesting to watch
a film you've seen before with someone who hasn't.
It's always a fun experience. Yeah. Kind of having
to sit on your hands a little bit and not get
too kind of... hung up on going oh I know what
happens next you're not going to believe what
happens next though what happens next was never
particularly surprising in this one I would say
no it is a little bit one note yeah and as we'll
get into as we talk more about it I think I liked
it more than you but it's not a movie where its
greatest strength is its twisty turny unpredictable
complex plot yes yeah it's got some really interesting
ideas I think but not necessarily a very surprising
story No, it's pretty straightforward, isn't
it? And another film in which James Spader plays
a little pervert. Yeah. With hair. Yes, we love
that for him. He does seem to really like being
just a little freak. Yes, yes, he does. And I
still cannot get over James Spader with hair.
A slim James Spader with lots of hair. Just doesn't
look right. Only movies I've seen him in are
two movies where he's a little pervert who is
slim with hair. So that's just... That's just
normal to me now. That's what I expect from him.
Yeah. And that's completely valid. I think if
you watch The Blacklist, you'd be like, who is
that guy? He sounds familiar. Not a little pervert
with hair anymore, Mick. Well, I think Raymond
Reddington is probably a bit of a pervert. He
seems the type, but he's filled out over the
years and still very handsome, very handsome
man, but bald. Yeah. Very different. Yes. I don't
know why. I am so obsessed with the fact that
James Spader once had hair and I just cannot
get my head around it. It is often the case with
people who are now bald is that once they had
hair. They once had hair. Like yourself, Mix.
Like myself. Before I became a bald baddie. Just
to be clear, because I can't remember whether
we've talked about that on any of the episodes
before, that is not a self -imposed title. That
is something that somebody described me as in
your TikTok comment. Yes. Yeah, because I never
show your face, but I sometimes show the back
of your head. And that was the response. Yes.
Apparently a bald baddie. Yes. Something else
that I thought was interesting about this movie
is that it feels timely for us to talk about
it because the reaction this movie got when it
came out, there was a huge media panic around
it and a lot of controversy about how explicit
it was, how dangerous the behaviour was in it.
Some criticism around its depiction of disability
as well. And it was all very much like a media
driven panic where a lot of people who hadn't
seen the movie but had seen articles in the Daily
Mail talking about it got really worked. up about
it and there were calls to ban it um it was reviewed
in depth in the uk by the bbfc and they cleared
it their investigation included like talking
to a psychologist or a psychiatrist they talked
to disabled people to get their perspective on
it and they weren't able to find grounds to ban
it which is a rare good decision from the bbfc
because they do sometimes like to do that yeah
yeah they didn't require any cuts or anything
no And I can see why, to be fair. They have passed
some pretty gnarly films with limited cuts in
the past. Yeah. And some really strange cuts
as well. Like you see some horror movies and
slasher -type movies where you compare the cinema
version to the uncut version. And you're like,
why? Why is that five seconds of blood too much?
Yeah. It's sometimes hard to understand. And
there was a long period of time where they were
banning any headbutts, at least from movies that
weren't 18 rated. If you showed a headbutt, that
would have to be cut, even in sort of quite kind
of cartoonish action violence. The Matrix originally
had some headbutts removed and you had to get
the American version to see it. I was obsessed
with The Matrix movies when I was a teenager,
so I know all the law there. I did not know that.
I'd be interested to see the American versions
of those films. But yes, because you were very
young when this came out. I would have been six,
yes. Much too young to watch it. I would have
been 17. And I remember the kind of panic about
it. Didn't see it when it first came out, but
was aware of the content of it. And I think I
had a similar thing to you of kind of, why? Why
are we? What's the big deal? It's just weird
people having weird sex. Yeah. Who cares? If
you don't like it, don't watch it. Yeah. If you
start to watch it and you don't like it, turn
it off. Leave the cinema. The adult thing to
do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Act like a fucking grown
-up. But yeah, there were certain local authorities
that banned it from being shown within their
boundaries and it ended up having a delayed release
in the US while they were dithering about whether
it was able to release it or not. I didn't even
know local authorities could do that. Yeah, I
mean, I have no idea if they still can, but at
the time at least, yeah, cinemas within certain...
boundaries weren't showing it right um and the
cinemas that were showing it i think this was
in america actually some of the cinemas that
were showing it hired security to make absolutely
certain no minors were getting in right it was
like okay we can release this but we're taking
it more seriously than age ratings normally are
like absolutely no kids can see this which i
i wouldn't disagree with but yeah panicking about
that rather than any other movies with sex and
violence and feels There's this particular fear
people have, I think, about depictions of sex
and violence together. Yeah. That's where people
start to get really freaked out a lot of the
time. But also I think just perversion in general,
like that's anything that's seen as outside the
norm sexually is where these panics come from.
So we're seeing this at the moment with the way
that the government and the media are looking
at depictions of incest, including step incest
in porn. Yeah. The way that they're looking at
age play. going back a couple of years you know
the bringing in of age verification for access
to porn yeah i don't think anyone wants kids
watching porn but the fact that we now are all
just expected to upload our ids to any website
with adult material on is yeah yeah very heavy
-handed way of dealing with that yeah hand over
our government id or our credit card number yeah
to a porn site yeah not ideal not ideal And a
lot of the fear around BDSM and depictions of
violence in sexual material being a contributing
factor to violence against women and girls. And
that being sort of what the conversation centers
around completely ignoring the gender and sexuality
diversity in this stuff, ignoring consent, ignoring
ethics, involving ignoring risk awareness, all
of that just. To whip up hysteria about violence
against women and girls is a really serious problem
and it's really important. But using people's
understandable fear and concern about that to
turn them against other things. Yeah. It feels
like nothing's really changed in nearly 30 years.
Yes. It feels like it's an easy target, isn't
it? Kind of films like Crash, porn. are easy
targets but are the wrong targets in in the majority
of cases so yeah controversial i think is probably
the word definitely yeah i think it's worth mentioning
at this point as well that given that this movie
is about 30 years old and very popular at the
time but maybe not as commonly seen by by some
of our younger listeners um i think this episode
is one that you could probably get a lot out
of will get a lot out of even if you haven't
seen the movie usually if we're doing a movie
i say like go away watch the movie first but
in this case for a start us talking in depth
about the plot of crash won't really spoil it
for you the plot isn't really the point the ideas
are um it's it's light on plot I love that the
plot isn't really the point as if there is one.
There is. It's just there's not a lot to it.
And we're going to be talking a lot about some
of the thoughts that came up for us and some
of the themes of the movie, which even if you
haven't seen it, will be things that you probably
know a little bit about or have some interest
in. Now, I know we've said that the plot was
not particularly important, maybe not the main
focus. No. It had a plot. So do you want to tell
us what that was, Mix? Yeah, probably more accurately
described as a sequence of events. That's fair.
But the movie centres on a movie producer called
James, James Ballard. A little bit of a shout
out to the person who wrote the book that the
film is based on. Yep. And the character after
himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his wife, partner,
Catherine, who are in an open relationship. Never
really understand the detail or the nuance of
the openness of that relationship, but they fuck
other people, is about as much as we are told.
James is involved in a car crash and encounters,
on the other side of that, a woman whose character
name I forget, I think it's Helen, who is visibly
aroused and flashes her boobs at him. Yeah, makes.
And as part of his recovery from that crash,
he meets Helen properly and someone called Vaughn.
who is a bit of a mad scientist kind of guy.
And they are Helen and... I'm going to assume
she's called Helen. I think she is. Should I
Google it before we say any more? She is, yes.
So he meets these two people as part of his recovery
and they are turned on by being in or around
cars and car crashes, essentially. Yep. And...
At first James, but then Catherine get drawn
into that underground world of a fairly small
group of people who fetishise cars and car crashes.
They have lots of sex in and around car crashes.
They simulate famous car crashes. So James Dean,
James Mansfield, people like that, kind of iconic
people who have died in iconic car crashes. And
that escalates throughout the film. So they go
from watching instant recreations of car crashes.
They get involved themselves in car crashes and
put themselves in situations where they are aroused
by kind of being in and around cars. The seriousness
of the car crashes escalates throughout the movie
to the point where one of the characters, Vaughn,
creates quite a significant car crash and dies,
which is like the ultimate. orgasm for him and
then Catherine and James together at the end
do a similar sort of thing they both survive
but they're both really turned on by it and the
movie finishes with them in the aftermath of
a car crash that they've been involved with having
sex and the implication is that that is part
of their fetish part of their sex life now as
they continue I suppose I think that's a pretty
straightforward summary of the plot. I would
say so, yes. Makes it amazing. I think there
is probably about two minutes of dialogue in
that entire film, which actually explains the
motivation, certainly from Vaughn's perspective,
who is played brilliantly by Elias Koteas, I
will say. He is a brilliant actor and he is very
good in that. But yeah, there is about two minutes
of dialogue, which explains it for the audience.
And other than that, it is essentially a montage
of car crash erotica. Yeah, because when you
start describing the whole plot, it's like, oh,
OK, so quite a lot happens. But what you don't
understand is the pace of the movie is very much
driven by here is a car crash and then some people
are fucking in it. Here is a slow -mo sequence
of someone wandering around in a car crash that
has happened with multiple vehicles involved
and vehicles on fire. It's very much filmed as
erotica at times. Yeah. while showing things
that are not particularly erotic. No. Like, this
is not a thing most people would be into seeing,
but it's filmed in a way as if it's giving you
that sort of voyeuristic insight into it. Yeah,
I'd agree with that. And it's not massively explicit
either, I don't think. I feel like you may have
seen too much porn mix. It is quite explicit
for a movie. Yeah, for a movie that was released
in the mainstream cinemas. There's quite a lot
of boobs in it. Yeah. There's a little bit of...
Vagina. Vagina. I was going to say pubic mound.
But it's not like... I don't think you see a
penis. You don't see a penis, Nomix, but I feel
like that is probably a little bit of misogyny.
Yeah, probably. Yeah, a little bit of male gaze
going on there, probably. But for the reputation
that it's got, even by the standards of other
erotic thrillers, there's probably less in it.
then you might expect it isn't really about the
sex and the nudity. It's about something else,
which I think surprised me watching it again.
Because I think I remembered it being a little
bit filthier than that. Yeah, which makes sense
if you saw it not long after it was released
when you were in your late teens, maybe. Yeah,
yeah. It would have seemed quite spicy. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I don't know how my life has changed.
How my attitudes have changed over the time.
I had a pretty visceral reaction when the film
finished, I think. You did say, I hate it quite
a few times, Mix. Yeah. It's just dull. That
was my initial take on it. And it's such a shame
because it is such a... Like, the idea of it
is really, really good. It's such a transgressive
concept that it could have been brilliant if
it wasn't so slow and so dull. It's my review
of it. Was there anything you did like about
it, Mix? I thought Elias Kosias was really good.
Yeah. I think he played that kind of unhinged
mad scientist kind of character really, really
well. And you could just tell how much he was
into what he was doing. Like when you first meet
him and he's kind of practically licking James
Spader's leg. in the hospital corridor. You could
really, it kind of jumped out at the screen from
you as a really strong contrast to most of the
other characters who I felt were a little bit
flat and a little bit, probably deliberately
flat and a little bit blasé about the whole thing.
He was really into it and you could tell. So
I really liked him in it, like an extreme version
of a proper fetishist as opposed to someone who
has kinks. Yeah. Played that really, really well.
A lot of sort of shaky, heavy breathing and very
intense eye contact and in people's personal
space and stuff. Yeah, he did really well to
show that visually. Yeah, and really, really
cared about what he was doing. There's a scene
where they go to a place where they recreate
the crashes and he's talking about the crash
that killed James Dean. And you can hear, like
you say, the shakes in his voice, the way that
even though he's holding the microphone quite
far away from his face, his breathing is shaky
and heavy and he's really visualising it and
getting into it as he's talking about it is really,
really good. So yeah, I really liked that about
it. I liked a lot of the ideas that we'll talk
about, the message of what it's trying to do.
It was just the way that it was delivered. Yeah.
For us. And, you know, it's written and directed
by David Cronenberg, who is a little bit weird
anyway. Yeah. He's known for creating fairly
weird cinema and kind of uncomfortable cinema
and disturbing in that quite understated way.
So I can see it. If I didn't know that, you kind
of said, who do you think directed that? David
Cronenberg would have been on the list. Yeah.
You know? But, yeah. so Elias Koteas I really
liked excellent in the movie what about you what
did you like about it I liked it mix and it's
been the opposite of what happened to me with
pillion where I came out of it not really liking
it and the longer I went from it the more I disliked
it The opposite has happened with this, where
at the time it was like, the pacing was a little
bit slow for me. I would have liked a little
bit more dialogue, a little bit more plot. So
I did like it, but I had some criticisms. And
the longer I've sat with it, the more it's made
me think. And the more I realise it's occupying
space in my brain rent -free for the last 24
hours or so, the more I'm starting to like it.
It's not a perfect movie. And I think my initial
reaction of, I could have done with maybe a little
bit less sex and a little bit more plot. still
stands yeah but i respect it for what it is and
the ways that it's made me think and the parallels
i've started to draw between areas of kink and
sex that interest me and how people sexuality
was portrayed in that movie i find really really
interesting i like it when a movie makes me actually
think about it and kind of work for it a little
bit rather than just being easy entertainment
sometimes and this definitely fits into that
box yeah i think that's I think that's fair.
And I think as I've thought about it and we talked
about what we wanted to talk about today, I probably
have softened a little bit. I'm not going to
go and watch it again unless somebody says, oh,
let's watch a movie. What do you want to watch?
Oh, I really want to watch Crash. It's one of
the best movies I've ever seen. I think I would
probably tolerate it in that situation, but I'm
not going to go and watch it again. But I guess
the more distance that I've got from the experience
of watching it, I'm going. Okay, yeah, I get
it. I see what you're doing. I see what you're
trying to put across. And I suspect that the
dullness of it was deliberate. Yeah. The pacing
of it would have been deliberate, the flat nature
of the characters. You don't really know very
much about them. You don't really care about
them in a way that you would expect to when you
watch a movie. That's probably deliberate. Yeah.
You know, quite aloof people for a reason. So
I think respect is a really good word. I can
respect the art of it without particularly enjoying
it. Yeah, I definitely picked up that the feel
of it was very deliberate and it was meant to
feel, I think. like a sort of desensitization
experience yeah um where the characters are as
they're becoming more aroused by the the violence
and destruction they're also becoming desensitized
to it which is why you see the escalation and
it feels like the movie tried to sort of draw
us in to experience that with them by having
you become desensitized to it you know the first
car crash you see on screen it makes you jump
a little bit it's shocking by the end of the
movie car crashes are just what happening and
people fucking is what is happening and you stop
really feeling it Much as I said, it's filmed
in a way that is filmed erotically. It's filmed
as erotica. It is a very unerotic experience
to watch it. And not just because getting off
on car crashes is not most people's taste. It's
because by the end of an hour and 40 minutes
of movie, even if you were turned on by it at
the start, you won't be by the end. It reminded
me quite a lot of Nymphomaniac, which is a Lars
von Trier film about a nymphomaniac. And that
has, you know, on screen penetrative sex. They
used like splicing of the footage between the
actors and porn performers so that they could
show actual penetrative sex in the movie. Right.
And the first time you see that, it's like, eee,
it's a bit spicy for a movie that isn't porn.
Yeah, yeah. But by the end of it, it's a two
volume movie. It's, I think when you total it
up, it's about four hours. By the end of it,
you are completely numb to it. And that's the
point because the character is as well by that
point. And it feels like Crash was doing a similar
thing. yeah i've never seen nymphomaniac i'd
be interested to see it we should put that on
the list of yeah weird weird sex films to talk
about because i think that would be really interesting
yeah and it's not it doesn't really fit kinky
movie there's not a lot of kink in it even at
a stretch but that sort of sexual obsession anger
is an interesting one and it's i would be up
for watching it again it's not necessarily an
enjoyable movie but it's a really interesting
movie and again it makes you think because it's
doing that trickery of putting you in the character's
shoes by how desensitized you get to it yeah
but that's another filmmaker who who does that
sort of stuff really well and does it deliberately
yeah you kind of know what you're i was gonna
say you know what you're getting into you don't
necessarily know what you're getting into you
definitely don't know what you're getting into
you know that you're about to experience something
yeah And it's not necessarily going to be an
overwhelmingly positive one. Yeah. You know,
you're going to have some thoughts by the time
you get to the end of a Lars von Trier movie.
Definitely. In the same way that you do David
Cronenberg movies. Yeah. I think my favourite
of his that I've seen was Antichrist, but that
one, like, it takes a lot for me to look away
from screen. Yeah. I had to look away from Antichrist
a fair few times. Like, that's a rough watch.
Yeah. Good though. I think I've seen that one.
I think we're talking ourselves into a Lars von
Trier binge, which probably won't be good for
our mental health. We should talk about Crash
some more. We probably should. I think one of
the thoughts that I had when we finished watching
the movie that has definitely changed since we've
talked about it afterwards is about the kink
representation in this movie. I think I fell
into the trap of, in a way that a lot of people
were offended by some of the other films that
we've... talked about and and that we were offended
by some of the other films that we've talked
about kind of fell into that trap of that is
not a realistic representation of kink but you
actually had some really interesting perspectives
on that that made me rethink that a little bit
and go okay i see what they were doing in there
yeah um why don't you why don't you tell us about
that yeah the other movies that we've talked
about all those ones showing ds relationships
people will take those as representation whether
they're meant to be or not because they show
something relatively realistic with you know
creative license and inaccuracies and things
but elements that you can relate to things like
you know the negotiation scene that you saw in
50 shades and the um way that a leather family
functions that you saw in pillion like there's
those pieces of reality in there yeah so it becomes
quite confusing For people who don't know a lot
about kink, if some of it's right and some of
it's wrong, that's where the representation starts
to, if it's not right, it's bad rep. And even
secretary, you know, there are some consent issues
there. Yeah. Where I feel like there's a few
reasons why I didn't hold crash to the same standards.
A big part of it for me is a really cool term
that someone on Tumblr invented and which I find
so useful to talk about is non -diegetic kink.
Ooh. That sounds very science -y. Yes. First,
I'm going to credit the user because they absolutely
should get credit for making this up because
it's such a useful term. The user is tierlessrain
on Tumblr. Okay. And they seem to come up with
this a few years ago and I've seen it used in
other places now, but that... as best as i can
tell is the source so the idea is like diegetic
is a term that is usually applied to elements
of a movie like music soundtrack sound engineering
that's that's done but also sometimes visual
things like subtitles and credit sequences where
if something is diegetic it means it's experienced
by the characters so music playing on a radio
when a character is in their house yeah or uh
you know a car crash that happens that the character
hears from outside their window would be diegetic
sound where non -diegetic is just for the audience
and the character isn't aware of it so the soundtrack
the the score you know music that's just playing
out of nowhere while the character's getting
on with their day we can assume that they can't
hear it yeah and those lines get blurred sometimes
depending on the style of the movie but that's
that's a general idea yeah and you see that sometimes
where it starts out as soundtrack but then it
zooms in on the scene and it's on the radio yeah
exactly yeah so that's where there's the crossover
between the two yeah um so if you apply that
to kink diegetic kink would be kink that the
characters know is kinky so christian gray and
uh anastasia steel getting into the red room
and him tying her up that's diegetic kink they
know that they're doing it and so when that is
shown people will assume that because the characters
know they're doing it that it's probably right
yeah non -diegetic kink would be more that the
audience might experience it or is intended to
experience in a kinky way but the characters
don't know that it's kinky so that would be rather
than a negotiated consensual non -consent scene
in a smutty novel yeah you show a non -consensual
scene in the novel because the characters don't
need to consent because they don't exist yeah
the characters don't need to negotiate we don't
even need to worry about their physical safety
because we can break the rules of medical science
if we want to but the person reading it is experiencing
it as a fantasy because they get off on that
fantasy Yep. So most of the stuff that I like
in erotic writing is non -diegetic kink. I don't
want to read the characters negotiating for two
chapters about how to do a consensual non -consent
scene. I just want to see someone get tortured
and sexually assaulted because that's the fantasy.
It's a fantasy that is, no one's consent is actually
being violated because that lives in my head.
So I'm consenting to be involved in it and the
people doing it aren't real. And I think that
Crash, even though it is, diegetic fetishism
because the characters know they have a fetish
that they're indulging in yeah because it's so
far removed from reality it starts to cross over
a little bit where you can experience the movie
as an insight into desire and eroticism and perversion
without holding it up to the standards of these
people are teaching me how to do it Because it's
common sense that a movie is not going to set
out to teach you how to crash cars to get yourself
off. Yeah. We know that. Yeah. And when you explained
that to me, I immediately thought of something
else that I'd seen that probably on Tumblr. And
I can't credit the person who said it, but it
was like somebody in a film studies class saying
it is unreasonable to expect the characters to
know what genre of film they're in. Yeah. That's
why people in horror movies go down into the
dark, dark, unlit cellar. Because they don't
know there's a serial killer down there. Because
why would they? Yeah, and they'll read out some
weird Latin script in a book that looks like
it's suspiciously printed on human skin. Because
why would they assume that that's real? They
don't know they're in a horror movie. It's very
much that the characters are existing in their
own little bubble and we're existing in ours.
And they're being presented to us to, in the
case of smut writing, it's to... to be sexy for
us. In the case of something like Crash, it's
more to make us think and give us some insight
into an element of the human condition presented
in a way that's dialed up well beyond reality.
Yeah, yeah. I think it connects to me with the
idea that we have talked about on previous episodes
about that kind of bubble of amorality, I suppose.
That idea that exploring kink allows you to suspend
the normal rules of morality and exist in this
fucked up little bubble. Yeah. Because part of
the issue that I had with Crash when we watched
it was there's a scene where they encounter a
car crash that has nothing to do with them. And
it is a really quite bad car crash. And they
drive past it really, really slowly. They get
out of the car and they wander among the wreckage
and the people who are being treated to and in
quite bad shape in some ways. They're taking
really close up photos of what's happened. And
immediately in my head, that took me into, you
are sexualizing other people's trauma without
their permission. You are invading into this
space which you do not belong in just so you
can get off. And I think in the quote unquote
normal kink world, people quite rightly have
a really strong reaction to that. You don't involve
people who don't know that it's kink in your
kinks. Yeah. Kind of thing. It's like, and it
doesn't have to be grotesquely kind of walking
among a car crash. It's flashing in the supermarket
aisle. Yeah. Is in the same category of that.
So I think I had that reaction to it when I was
watching it of being quite judgmental of it and
going, that's bad representation of kink. People
who watch this are going to think that this is
what fetishists and kinky people do. That's not
true and it's not fair. but actually what's happening
on the screen is kind of existing in a parallel
world. Yeah, and I feel like that scene is a
really good example of how that's actually, in
my opinion, at least made quite clear by the
movie, because that scene, not only would it
be wildly unethical in real life, it also wouldn't
work in real life. This is a multi -car pile
-up. The police are there, fire crew are there,
there's multiple victims, majority of whom are
conscious and aware of what's happening to some
extent, a little bit dazed. If you and a bunch
of your mates wandered into that, started taking
pictures, started lovingly caressing the burning
cars. Yeah, yeah. Someone would stop you or at
least tell you get the fuck out of my face. Yeah.
So the fact that they're completely unchallenged
throughout that entire sequence kind of shows
like we are not supposed to be seeing reality
here. We're seeing a fantasy in that bubble.
Yeah. And that makes sense. And I think part
of my reaction was why aren't they being stopped?
Yeah. Like this just wouldn't happen. That wouldn't
be allowed to happen. People would stop them.
People would be shooing them away. They probably
couldn't even drive past it in the way that they
did. Yeah, it's quite far from reality. And there's
a few scenes like that. I would say like the
first stunt car crash that they put on. Yeah.
The police interrupt that. The police turn up.
Siren's going. And then everyone just sort of
calmly walks away. from the scene yeah there's
not a lot of panicked running one of the characters
is in two leg braces and is sort of hobbling
yeah i think even the the main character james
at that point has only recently come out of hospital
so his leg isn't working very well yeah and they
just stroll away from the scene where they have
just staged a car crash and the police have now
pulled up to find out what the fuck's going on
yeah they would have been chased and they're
not There's the part where Vaughn is in the hospital
and comes and accosts James and takes loads of
photos and is, like you said, practically licking
his leg. Yeah. He probably wouldn't have got
away with that. Probably someone would have stopped
him. So there's a few points through the movie
where it sort of gives you that little bit of
a sign. We're not showing you a realistic depiction
of fetishism here. What we're showing you is
like a sort of what -if world where perversion
is completely unchecked and people can pursue
this to its extreme conclusions. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think it's one of the things that I was
curious, looking at, like side -eyeing curiously,
I suppose. There's a few scenes where they're
in medical settings, they're in hospitals, and
there's nobody around. Yeah. There's nobody else
in this entire ward. and kind of you know there's
no nurses there's no patients there's no it's
it's empty and and again kind of at first i was
like well that's just silly isn't it but actually
i suppose it's that's like a visual representation
of how fetish feels it's like the world doesn't
exist yeah there is nothing else other than what's
going on right now in this moment for a kind
of for a fetishist yeah so that's what i mean
when i kind of say my my thoughts about it have
kind of shifted a little bit where i've stared
at a wall and gone okay yeah that okay that makes
sense i'll buy that just did a really dull movie
but i buy it yeah kind of thing and i'm not offended
by it in quite the way that i was when i watched
it and had that kind of immediate like visceral
reaction to it going why do people why do people
hold this up as a good example of kink adjacent
fetish adjacent movies when it's committing the
same crimes that 50 shades secretary pillion
baby girl committed I think part of it as well
is it helps that the fetish that Crash is showing,
it does have a name, but I'm not necessarily
convinced that it has any people who actually
have it because I've not been able to find any
evidence. It's called Symphorophilia, which is
the fetish for witnessing, creating, or being
involved in disasters. Right. So not just car
crashes, it could be other things as well. Like
I said, that term exists, but... I wouldn't be
entirely surprised if it exists because of the
movie or because of the book that came before
it. I have searched and everything I could find
on Reddit and various other websites was people
asking, does it actually exist? Or people asking,
what does the word mean? But no one saying like,
I have this or I found out my loved one has this.
I searched on FetLife to see if anyone lists
it as a fetish and 18 people do, which is not
a lot in the grand scheme of things. I would
be willing to bet money that at least 17 of them
are big fans. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In the way that
happens in the movie. That is literally what
happens in the movie. Yeah. So it's not like
this movie is representing how anyone is engaging
in a fetish. Yeah. Or if there is anyone engaging
in it in that way, it is one guy. Yeah. So it's
not representing a community in the way that
a lot of these movies are. Yeah, true. Now that
we've said it, this is where the podcast breaks
containment and we get contacted by thousands
of people who are Sim 4 affiliate. Yes. I mean,
if you are, tell us. We're fascinated. We exist.
Yeah. And tell us how you feel about Crash. Is
it good representation? Yeah, yeah. Also, you
guys really need to learn about Rack. Yeah. Yeah,
you are valid. Your kinks and your fetishes are
valid, but maybe take a class. But you have experience
of someone who, at least on paper, or on... The
internet has an adjacent kink? Yes, so not car
crashes, but I had a message about three years
ago, I think. And I found out since that this
poor guy, he is sending it to everyone. Lydia's
had this message. Someone else Lydia knows has
had this message. Like he is going round everyone
and asking them this because it's a very, very
niche fantasy. And I imagine he's going to struggle
to find someone to do it because it's not safe.
But yeah, I had a message from someone asking
me if he could stand against some sort of padded
wall, like maybe a mattress against a wall, he
might have said. Yeah. And for me to drive my
car very, very slowly and very, very gently,
he specifically asked, into. him and crush him
against it right um so i think that's more along
the lines of like crushing fetishes but he very
specifically wanted it to be a car yeah yeah
barking up the wrong tree with me i don't have
a car i don't have a driving license yeah i do
not have the skills to be driving a car very
slowly and very gently into anybody he would
have died no no and that is quite a skill to
be fair to drive it that slowly is It would be
quite hard to do, I think, without... Like you'd
need a... Sorry, you've set me off thinking about
the practicalities of it now. You would need
a bit of a run -up, I think, because I drive
an electric car, so it's like driving a fucking
go -kart. You put your foot down and the car
goes. So you would have to start and then slow
down. Yeah. Because you're going to have that
jerk when the car takes off, like you do. So
you're going to have to have enough time to kind
of get over that. peak of any pressure on the
accelerator makes it go and then slow it down
slow enough so that you you are gently caressing
his chins presumably um god that person's gonna
listen to this and get in touch with me because
i've just worked out how to do it yeah yeah you're
gonna be the next recipient of the message and
like i don't want to i don't want to defend someone
who is spam messaging everyone probably everyone
who they think is a woman with a very direct
message asking them to just dispense a kink for
them that's not good kink etiquette it's it's
bordering on harassment yeah the only reason
i'm saying bordering on is as far as i know he
only ever messaged anyone once he's not pestering
but it's not good behavior and women particularly
get so many messages of people asking them to
fulfill specific sexual fantasies it's it's really
gross um but i do feel a little bit sorry for
people who have really specific desires like
that yeah because probably the reason he's doing
that is because how else has he got even a one
in a million chance of finding someone who's
willing to do it yeah if he blasts that message
out to everyone that he's vaguely interested
in yeah the possibility is that one of them will
be like oh my god i've always wanted to do that
to someone let's go yeah and that'll be why he's
engaging in it i think it must be hard if you
do have something really unusual like that yeah
yeah you can it's not okay but you can see why
he's doing it he's playing the law of averages
yeah like yeah someone someone somewhere will
say yes which is quite sad when you think about
it from that person's perspective it's like if
that's the one thing that you want to do and
you'll feel fulfilled not being able to do it
it's going to be really hard yeah and a better
approach for things like that specific is to
approach professionals but it's entirely possible
he has because i imagine a lot of pro doms would
not want to risk their career and their reputation
and potentially risk going to prison to drive
a car into someone like that's probably going
to be a hard no from most yeah yeah i can't imagine
many pro doms have public liability insurance
that would cover or personal injury insurance
that would cover blow back from that no definitely
not no Something you mentioned earlier as we
were talking about your initial reaction to the
film and you starting to come around to some
of the ideas in it, at least even if not necessarily
the movie viewing experience. Yes. You mentioned
that it's got some interesting ideas about the
intersection of technology and sex. So I thought
I'd let you talk about that one. Yeah, I think
so. Well, technology is part of it, I think.
But the movie is set in Toronto. I don't know
why it's set in Toronto. This is the advantage
of using it twice. I had no idea where it was
set. I didn't pick up on that. The only reason,
very, very sad little reason. The only reason
I know it was set in Canada is that there's a
scene in it where there's a service station in
the background. And the service station is an
ESO station. And they only have them in Canada,
in North America. They're not in the United States.
It's a different brand in the United States.
Great piece of trivia. Thank you. Because many,
many years ago, when I was very young. university
student. I worked for ESO on a placement, so
I knew that it was in Canada, and then I googled
it, and I got it's in Toronto. But it's quite
a bleak setting. You know, the apartment that
Catherine and James live in kind of overlooks
a massive freeway. There's a really strong message
in it, which I quite liked, about urban alienation,
and kind of that's why they're quite flat people.
They're just kind of drudging through their life.
Even though, to be fair, he has quite an interesting
job. He is a movie producer. Yeah. But even when
he's doing that, he looks bored. He looks completely
uninterested. They are not massively interested
in each other. Really, you don't get any sense
that they actually give a shit about each other.
The sex they have is quite normal. I think all
of the sex in it. That's why I said it's not
really kind of very spicy in that way. It's all
quite impersonal. It's all quite awkward. Sex
in cars. I can't do it. I'm too tall for it.
I did have that thought as we were watching it.
It's like, we could not do any of this. You're
six foot five. I'm five foot ten. We could not.
No, we couldn't do it. And there was, I don't
think it was intended to be funny, but it was
a comedic moment for me when the character of
James was trying to have sex in a car with a
character I think played by Rosanna Arquette,
who is in double leg braces. And it's just fucking
awkward. Like this woman cannot bend her legs
because of the braces. So how do you manoeuvre
that to have sex in the back of a car? And it
wasn't intended to be funny, but I couldn't help
but go, that's quite funny. So there's this really
kind of flat, alienated, impersonal tone. And
then you add on top of that the role that technology
plays in our life, but what role technology plays
in these people's sex lives. Because it's all
about the machine of the car. Vaughn's really
interested in all of the pins that are in James's
leg. That kind of... melding of human and non
-human elements to it and it's just a really
fascinating thing to think about kind of how
how in that movie technology in the form of cars
is so central to these people's sexuality And
Vaughan explains that really well in the two
minutes of meaningful dialogue that exists in
the entire movie. He kind of sets all of that
out. It's about this combination of human beings
and technology and how people like James Dean
and Jane Mansfield, who died in horrific car
crashes, kind of achieved the ultimate release,
the ultimate combination of those two things
for him. Yeah. And it's just a really fascinating
thing to think about. given that this film came
out in 1996. So the peak of technology that people
interacted with was probably cars, fairly shit
computers, you know, in their everyday life.
But you fast forward 30 years and you think about
the role that technology plays in our intimate
lives and our sex lives now. You think, shit,
actually, that was a prophetic dystopian novel.
Bear in mind the book that it was based out came
out in the 70s. Yeah. you know so it's just it's
dead interesting to think about that kind of
relationship between people and technology and
how it affects our intimacy and our sex life
yeah i completely agree um because it's i feel
like the the film and i i assume the book it's
based on were seeing that in a very critical
way and it was a warning like yeah but i think
our sort of integration with technology is both
the ultimate form of like beyond body horror
it's like identity horror yeah but also it's
really cool as a reflection on how adaptable
humans are that our sexuality is so shaped by
what we consider to be our natural environment
and when your natural environment is full of
technology you just seamlessly bring it in yeah
think about some of the things we do like tracking
my location only possible with technology using
cameras those are things that maybe are less
common in vanilla intimacy but a lot of people
would have taken and sent nudes Or had phone
sex. Yeah, yeah. Which again is something that
just becomes not only an option in your sex life,
but often becomes a preference. People will develop
specific desires for things like phone sex. Yeah.
Because it's got a sort of a distance to it that
can feel more intimate. Yeah. And well, like
cyber sex generally, isn't it? Yeah. Like sexting
and using online messaging apps. and stuff like
that to do that as a way of getting off. And
if you think back to when we did the episode
about long -distance relationships three weeks
ago, a lot of the ways that me and my ex -partner
managed that was by using technology, which just
wouldn't have been possible 20 years ago. Definitely
wouldn't have been possible in the 70s. No. Not
just phone sex and sexting and things like that,
but spending time intimately together using technology
as the medium, so Disney Plus on the TV. whatsapp
voice call on my phone remote control sex toys
all ways of enhancing our intimacy and maintaining
our intimacy through the medium of technology
and like you say kind of integrating that into
our normal life yeah you know and even sorry
i'm at risk of just pontificating here i like
it but even going back a little bit further to
the findom episode where one of the ways that
we practice that in our dynamic is that i have
access to your banking app and so i can i can
reach in i can pick up your phone and and go
into your banking app and take money out of your
account which wouldn't have been possible 10
years ago probably maybe was 10 years ago but
10 years ago i think you could have probably
done it on the computer on the big on the big
internet yeah yeah um or kind of texting you
and demanding money from you in in in the way
that i do yeah kind of in line with our heavily
negotiated very consensual very consensual dynamic
um in a way that just wouldn't have been possible
when the film came out absolutely not possible
when the when the book came out kind of that
again that kind of adapting to the technology
around us as a way of getting off yeah even thinking
horrible like when you say it like that it's
just awful i i genuinely don't think it is like
i am i am suspicious of technology but i think
it's also it is natural because it's created
by us and we're animals it's as natural as anthills
and we have made the world adapt to us and then
we adapt to it in return and that feels like
about the most natural thing there is but it's
also really alarming when you see it happening
at such a speed that you can look back in your
lifetime and see the difference yeah i even think
about things like online dating yeah like you
You had experiences of online dating when it
was like a text -based service that you would
sort of sign up to and receive a text from someone.
My first experience of online dating was through
dating websites and they were really only used
by big nerds. And now almost everyone meets their
partner through an app. Another generation and
probably everyone will. And it's, I don't think
that's a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's
just interesting that one of the things that
we will sort of adapt our way out of is the ability
to meet a partner organically, just in person.
I think already social norms are really starting
to change around that because quite rightly women
have started to point out how much they are sexually
harassed in public and how much they do not fucking
like it. But as those norms change, they become
less and less acceptable ways to approach someone
in a public place. And we have an alternative
to it. So we don't need to try to find a way
to, sort of adapt or preserve those so they just
go and how we date changes yeah yeah no you're
right i mean and that change in dating isn't
even all that old like i remember what would
it have been i moved up here in 2000 so probably
2008 or 10 a kind of time um somebody on my team
met their husband through a through a dating
website And genuinely, I think it was the first
person who had ever said that out loud to me.
Yeah. You know? And there was no judgment about
that. It was like, okay, that's a way that people
meet. Cool. But they were the first person I
can specifically remember just saying it out
loud. Yeah. Yeah, this is how I met my partner.
And that is 15 years ago, 16 years ago. Yeah.
At most. You know, it's just nuts how that's
changed in a relatively short space of time.
What's terrifying to me is AI dating. Yes, don't
like that. Horrible. I mean, I am anti -AI pretty
much universally. You know, you can think about
the different types of AI and some of them are
less shit than others, but you know. I think
it's the way that it's marketed that horrifies
me. I'll be your AI girlfriend. I'll do anything
you want. yeah like that's just really rapey
isn't it i it is but as someone with rape fantasies
not to defend ai but i think sometimes if you
have fantasies that other people might not be
particularly interested in there might be sort
of risk associated with i can understand the
market for a way to experience those in a way
that doesn't involve another person because often
the other person is the biggest barrier um I
think the way that AI exists currently, and probably
always will, based on just how it's been developed
and the impact that it's having on people and
the planet and the amount of stolen content that
is going into train it and all of these issues,
it's not the solution. But the desire to have
your kink experiences happen with something that
cannot be harmed by them. in itself i don't think
is a bad desire it goes back to what we were
saying about you know me enjoying erotica that
has like non -consensual scenes and torture scenes
and people getting murdered and things like that
those are not things that i can do those are
not things i can experience and and wouldn't
want to experience but they are hot as a fantasy
and that's a way of doing it that doesn't cause
problems for me or anyone else no and i get that
i suppose i'm a little bit more cynical about
They're a bit more cynical about the motivations
of the people who would engage with AI in that
way. And probably a little bit more cynical about
the logical conclusion of that. You can just
see the... And it's a really fine line, and it's
why I'm kind of struggling to get it straight
in my head, I suppose. But if someone who is
just a deeply misogynistic human wants to create
an AI... so they can live their best misogynistic
life on that AI person. I guess there is an argument
which says better a computer than an actual person.
But it is not a big leap to go from, well, I
can do it to a computer so I can do it to a person.
I think that's the bit that really bothers me.
Potentially walking our way into a situation
where some of those norms that you talk about
come back because it's like, well, it's fine.
because i do it to the ai it's a it's a variation
on what grok is capable of doing with people's
photos it's a violation and what's really interesting
sorry to get on the ai bandwagon what's really
interesting is what happens at the point at which
ai achieves consciousness yeah and then we end
up with a situation that you see in films like
ex machina where it's like okay so where's the
where's the moral and ethical line here and and
you know having to navigate all of that Yeah.
Nonsense. I absolutely agree. I think the integration
of technology into our lives is, I still think
it's not ideal. Like I would prefer, even though
I am a bit of a nerd, I would probably prefer
a less integrated life, but it is the life that
we've got. But I just fear for the future. Yeah,
I think generative AI particularly is pretty
concerning and I have some views on that. But
I still, I'm not against technology because I
do believe it's a very natural product of the
type of creature that we are. Yeah. That's why
we've got it. And if we didn't have technology,
we would be missing a lot of our kinks. So it's
interesting to see a movie that kind of covers
that intersection of technology and sex, which
is becoming so prevalent. Where so much of the
ways that we're intimate, the ways that we enjoy
sex, the way that we met each other twice. Yeah,
yeah. all based in technology, and the way that
our sexualities would probably be completely
unrecognisable without it. Yeah, yeah. So it
is surprising that a story that originally came
from a book in the 70s sort of captured that.
Captured that, yeah. But probably captured it
in a slightly dystopian kind of way. Yeah. Like,
this is bad, right? in the same way that you
know the handmaid's tale is what happens you
explained to me this to me the other day what
happens if you take a fundamentalist religious
approach which you see in other countries and
apply it to christian theocracy in america yeah
fundamentally functionally no different from
some of the things that are labeled as terrorist
regimes in other parts of the world but actually
you can absolutely see how christian nationalism
would lead us to exactly the same thing Yeah.
Because it's not the religion that's the issue
there. It's the conservative theocracy. It's
the people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like,
there's been a lot of stories told about, like,
the dangers of technology and warning us about
this sci -fi future where technology will be
fucking us all up. Like Terminator. Yeah, yeah.
We are now potentially living in that. Yeah,
yeah. Not great. No. We don't heed warnings very
well as a species. We like to try new things.
No. And we see these movies and go, that's really
cool. Let's do it. And that is what has happened
in the post -crash era. Wasn't a fucking instruction
manual. Not a fucking TED Talk. We are literally
just fuck around and find out the primate. Yeah,
yeah. Eventually. It's not like I'm some kind
of Luddite who would prefer to be living in a
pre -industrial agrarian economy. Apart from
anything else, I wouldn't survive. But I wish
the world was a little less... a little less
connected, a little less reliant on technology.
I think we would be better off. I will remind
you of this conversation, which we have on record,
next time you're considering paying through the
nose for an early upgrade to get a shiny new
phone mix. Yeah, I know. It is completely hypocritical.
As Greta Thunberg... once said you can work within
a system while also wanting to change the system.
Yes. That is in fact necessary for survival.
It is necessary for my survival to have the latest
Samsung phone. I'm going to say something that's
going to alarm you and make you want to wrap
your nice red Hyundai and bubble wrap mix. Okay.
I found this movie quite relatable. I am not
hitting you with my car. Not because of the car.
So I found there were some really interesting
parallels for me between the people in this movie
who are fetishising something that you should
not be turned on by. Yeah. Categorically, pretty
much anyone would agree, you should not be turned
on by crashing your car, injuring people, injuring
yourself. causing havoc on the road, probably
causing havoc to your insurance company, which
was one of my first thoughts watching it. How
are they reporting these crashes? I would be
investigating the shit out of these people. So
it's, they're breaking all the rules. They're
doing all of this stuff that is very, very deviant,
very immoral, very harmful, very damaging to
people around them. And the feeling of wanting
something like that is the bit I related to because
of the kind of fantasies that I have from really,
really young fantasies about torture, fantasies
about murder and fantasies about rape, which
are all some of the most unacceptable things
to do to other human beings. Yes. Absolutely
awful, unjustifiable cruelty to other people
that I don't support in any way. But it's what
turns me on and gets me off as a fantasy, as
a piece of fiction, as a role play within a kink
relationship. Yeah. So I found that really interesting
to sort of explore that space of kink as where
you explore and experience the worst things you
can think of, but with some degree of control.
Yeah. Now, obviously, how I explore those things
is with a lot more control. than what they had
in the movie because i'm either fantasizing which
is completely safe because it's in my head or
i'm reading something or i'm doing a role play
with you which has been heavily heavily negotiated
and planned and we've talked through everything
we can do to reduce risk because much as we joke
about oh it's not very rack of you we are actually
very rack of us yes um yeah yeah we're obviously
driving a car into oncoming traffic with the
intention of crashing it is not rack at all no
it's there is no control there but the control
is in the decision to do it rather than just
waiting for it to happen to you. Which is, I
think, is again where that parallel comes from,
is the movie shows so many scenes of just these
streams of traffic. There's a few bits of dialogue
talking about, like, does the traffic seem heavier
since the accident that happened at the start
of the plot? Where they're obviously very constantly
aware of the constant threat of it happening.
And the almost inevitability of it, if you drive
every day in heavy traffic every day, at some
point something's going to happen. Hopefully
just a minor bump, but you always know that that
journey you go on to... pop to the shops for
a pint of milk could be the one that kills you.
And that living under the constant threat of
something creates a tension that has to go somewhere.
And I think that's why when you look at studies
of how common rape fantasies are, particularly
in women, that's where a lot of that comes from.
Because the first conversation I remember having
about sexual violence, I can't have been more
than five years old. I'm being warned, you know,
don't talk to strange men. Don't get in anyone's
car. Don't let anyone touch you. If someone tries
to touch you in a place that you don't want to
be touched, like scream for an adult, all of
this stuff. Like, particularly for people who
are assigned female at birth, but I think increasingly
for everybody, people are starting to learn that
boys are victims just as often and are starting
to teach them that as well. You grow up aware
that you are under constant threat and the threat
to you surrounds you because the threat is other
people. Yeah. Eight billion of us on the planet.
They're absolutely fucking everywhere and any
one of them could be the threat. Yes, they are.
And that tension has to go somewhere. So for
a lot of people, where that goes is you eroticise
it. Yeah. And I just found that really interesting.
I have no idea if that was in any way intentional,
given how male -gazy the movie was and how sort
of old the original story is and how old even
the movie is. I would be surprised if it had
that sort of feminist take to it. or like female
sexuality focus take to it but death of the artist
like i'm taking that and running with it because
it felt highly relatable to me yeah i can't imagine
that it was putting that across through a feminist
lens yeah and there'll be a lot of people who
wouldn't consider that a feminist viewpoint to
have but how women cope with the constant threat
of sexual violence regardless of how ugly and
messy and jagged around the edges it is i think
is yeah it has to be part of it like it's it's
women And people who experience gender -based
violence taking control. Yeah. Which I think
is only ever a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think that principle of how do you make
sense of the threat around you and how do you
take control of it and how do you make peace
with it, I suppose. Yeah, I think it's probably
the theme there. But probably not particularly
feminist. Like you say, it's a pretty male gaze
-y kind of film. Yeah. Okay, well, I'm pleased
that you don't want me to hit you with my car
because it is quite a nice car. It is. I don't
want to have to explain to the lease company
what happened to it. Or explain to the police
what happened to me, I think would be your bigger
issue. Yeah, true. I think another element of
that for me as well is the... Sometimes it feels
like the primary motivator for all of my kinks.
The way that you often say the thing about it
for you is power. Yeah. A big one for a lot of
mine is intensity. Yeah. Whether something's
intensely good or intensely bad, I want to feel
like overwhelmed by emotion, sensation, all of
it. all kinds of consensual non -consent play
really hit that button really hard because they're
always intense that feeling like you can't stop
something that's happening to you which isn't
just sort of play that is based around sexual
violence it could be just violence you know the
interrogation scene we did was a form of cnc
even though there was no sexual contact in that
but that feeling of powerlessness in the face
of some form of violence or control is very intense
and The idea that if you boil all of it down,
like intensity is the point, also seemed like
a lot of, particularly for these characters who
were quite flat and quite numb, the only strong
reactions that they ever had were in the peak
of a car crash. Yeah. They were chasing that.
And that's something that I could see a bit of
myself in as well. Yeah. And the way that it
escalated throughout the movie. Yeah. To, you
know, from... I mean, I say it escalated. The
crash that he had at the start of the film was
pretty significant. Had quite a significant impact
on him. But it was also unintentional. The intentional
crashes definitely follow a straight up trajectory
all the way through. Yeah, yeah. Kind of starting
from those kind of recreation of the stunts to
like minor little bonks. Yeah. Through to pretty
catastrophic crashes towards the end. Yeah, it's
like you can see, yeah, I can see that kind of
actually if you apply it to any, a lot of different
kinks I suppose that we do is you start off at
a level and you go, oh yeah. i'll have a little
bit more of that please and a little bit more
of that please and then a little bit more of
that on top um you know before you know it i'm
chasing you through the woods and pinning you
down and fucking you as hard as i can kind of
yeah yes please every now and again listener
i just say things to them just to see the little
smile on their face Anybody who listened to the
degradation and humiliation episode will probably
heard the little smile whenever I said. All the
way through, yeah. It's tough. But yeah, it's
that escalation in both intensity and realism,
I think. You know, the first few scenes I did
that were some form of consensual non -consent,
it was quite cheesy role play and it was quite
playful. And then I've worked out ways to make
that feel more realistic. We've literally taken
classes on how to make it feel more realistic
to heighten the... the illusion for me and the
illusion for you so that you can step into this
other role and have it feel real for a period
of time and so i can respond to you as if you
are a stranger who's broken into the house even
though i know that you're not yeah um that sort
of constant pursuit of just a little bit more
yeah it's something that can be really exciting
and fun and kink and pushes you to innovate and
educate yourself and do all these cool things
but is also a risk factor to take into consideration.
There's times where I've really had to check
myself if I was in a bad headspace and I was
looking for the catharsis and release of intense
play. There was a little voice in the back of
my head that was like, just put yourself in danger
and make it real. And I have to go, no, no, we're
not going to do that. Yeah. So I think the movie
really showed like the dark version of that,
like where it can go right through to, you know,
the end of the movie when James and Catherine
have their crash that they've intentionally set
out to have. And her car goes off the road and
flips over and she's kind of halfway out of it
and very still when he runs up to her. And he
looks really worried. And you think that he's
worried that she's badly injured or killed. And
then she starts responding to him. And she says,
I think I'm all right and breaks down in tears
because she's all right. And they're both. they
wanted they wanted catastrophic injury from it
yeah and the movie ends with him while he's fucking
her saying maybe next time like that's what they're
chasing is for her to be badly injured yeah yeah
yeah and that's just me after an impact scene
when i look in the mirror and there's no bruises
that is just the extreme version of that so maybe
next time yeah yeah yeah and that in the movie
that mirrors what happened to vaughn and like
i said that two minutes of meaningful dialogue
is all about that of actually what he was chasing
was the the ultimate version of what he was doing
yeah and he got it in the end because well i
don't think you actually see him die but you
see the crash i think it's safe to say he was
he was he was dead at that point yeah he was
in an upside down car inside a bus on fire so
yeah i don't think he's walking away no no um
going back to what we were saying earlier on
about the the we create city with the kink that
we do we create those bubbles of amorality but
there are checks and balances on that yeah like
what we do where we do it how we do it the things
that we don't do etc that doesn't exist in the
in the film yeah there isn't that line between
morality and amorality in the world yeah and
there isn't that kind of self -preservation which
is more common in our discussions about the unhinged
things that that we we talk about is the preservation
of others yeah you know there are things that
you have said we joke about it all the time hit
me with your car kind of thing i'm the one going
no and not just because i don't want to fuck
up my nice at least car like no i'm not doing
that giant hogweed we've talked about but no
i'm not doing that kind of thing there's that
natural control and preservation around it which
is just completely absent in the movie yeah there's
no sort of consent or negotiation models or even
attempts at consent and negotiation there's not
any attempts to think about self -preservation
or the safety of other people or the consent
of other people all of that is absent and that
as as we talked about earlier like that could
be a weakness where it's like poor representation
and things like that but also it allows us it
allows the movie to just distill it down into
what does the chasing of intensity and the eroticizing
of danger and injury where is the extreme that
that would go to if you don't have any kind of
check on it? Yeah. And I don't think it's unrealistic
in that. I think if morality wasn't something
that I cared about at all, and my safety wasn't
something I cared about at all, I'd be doing
some pretty fucked up stuff. Yeah. And those
elements are really important. Yeah. That's a
very good point. And I suppose there's a link
there to how fear plays a role in kink generally,
but also how fear plays a role in our kink. And
I don't think it's addressed in the movie, but
you can see James's fear at the start of... You're
kind of going, oh my God, I shouldn't be turned
on to this. Turned on by this. This is dangerous.
What am I doing? And that falls away as things
escalate throughout the movie. But that idea
that sometimes it's hot because it's scary. Yeah.
Is... I definitely think it's a big part of your
motivation for kink. Fear makes me horny, yes.
And I think my fear makes you horny. Yes. Yeah,
I don't want to be scared. You want to be scary.
In my kink, but I do like to be scary. You know,
you talked before about some of the lessons,
some of the education that we've done. around
CNC and emotional sadomasochism and fear. And
it is, for me, that is as simple as putting a
mask on. Yeah. To create the fear in you, but
also to create a version of myself which is scary,
you know? I like to feel scary, not be scared.
Yes. And you're very good at it. Thanks. I haven't
used that mask very much, actually. No, I would
like to request the scary mask next. I think
I need to get a better one. I like that one.
Do you? Yes, Migs. I know it looks good, but
it's not massively comfortable to wear. Okay,
that's fair. I need one that kind of is a little
bit more comfortable to wear. Yeah. And easier
to see out of. Like, because I end up kind of
peering a little bit to try and work out where
I'm going. Struggling to find the hole. Struggling
to find the hole. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. Especially
when it's a struggling hole. Yeah. It's wriggling
around. But the film does show them going through
that process of being scared by it and being
turned on by it and then being turned on by it
because they're scared by it. Yeah. Which is
an interesting thing to see represented. Yeah,
definitely. I think fear kink is something that
isn't necessarily represented a lot. So it's
cool to see that. And it is, as you say, a big
part of the appeal for me. And I think it's quite
a common one where the line between scared and
horny can be pretty thin. Yeah, true. Quite a
lot as well. You like the idea of having a flinch
response. Yeah. Or we both like the idea of you
having a flinch response. Let's be honest. Let's
not just put all of this on you. It was your
idea. And I was like, yes. Yes. Because we're
both little perverts. Both little perverts. Could
easily be played by James Spader. but me james
spader as he is now not as he was in 1986 because
of the hair i see being a little bit more chunky
around the tummy than he was in 1996 yeah definitely
a flinch response is something i really like
to have and for me that's like a green flag in
intimacy the way that that a lot of much more
normal things would be for most people like i
know that power exchange relationship is going
well once i start flinching whenever my partner
raises their hand it's like yeah that's the good
shit um and that has to be approached obviously
carefully as safely as possible lots of negotiation
things like that but yeah yeah Us having a relationship
where I know you can just randomly slap me at
any time because I've specifically asked for
that and we've agreed to it really helps to kind
of prime me for that response. So it's not like
I'm sitting around in a state of constant fear
and that's not good for you. That can really
raise your overall stress levels and make it
hard for you to deal with things. But playing
with just a little bit of fear that's always
present can be really hot. But it's also similar
to what I was talking about with the sort of
eroticizing of the constant threat. If you make
fear into one of your sex games, then fear itself
has a little bit less power. Yeah. And it's like,
okay, this is just a thing I do because it's
hot now, which again can be a risk. There is
a risk of you becoming desensitized to fear and
just wandering around in danger like, oh, this
is so sexy, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your
preservation instinct starts to weaken. Yeah,
which is one of the things that the classes that
we've been to have covered as well is keeping
an eye on that and making sure that doesn't happen
if you're playing with sort of sustained intense
fear. Yeah. Is that it can really damage your
ability to detect danger. But as with all of
these things, if you're able to find a way to
do it that feels in line with your ethics and
feels safe enough for your risk profile, then
it can be really rewarding and it can have knock
-on effects on other areas of your life that
you wouldn't necessarily expect. I definitely
feel less ruled by fear than I have done in the
past. Fear used to be a real limiting factor
in a lot of areas of my life. And I wouldn't
say that it isn't at all now, but I don't think
it should ever not be at all. But it feels less
overwhelming. Which is a good thing. Kink is
not therapy, but. Exactly. And the but is important.
The but is important. I have enjoyed talking
about Crash more than I liked watching it, I
think. And I imagine that's the same for you.
Definitely. I found it really interesting. But
I think talking about some of the ideas that
came up from it are more interesting. Yeah. Which
I suppose, not to get all art wanky about it,
is the point of art, isn't it? You are supposed
to have some thoughts and feelings about the
art that you are perceiving. Definitely. Beyond
just, well, that was a bit fucking dull. I feel
quite bad because there are probably people listening
to this who think that Crash is an amazing film.
And I love that for them. But it is not one that
I will be rushing to watch again. But very interesting
to talk about. Yes. And I think it's not like
we've sat here and kicked the shit out of it.
Like I say, I quite liked it and I like it more
and more as I process. You weren't a big fan
of it. I dislike it less. Exactly. So like you,
you didn't like it and you dislike it less, but
it's not like you've sat here and gone, it's
shit. It was badly made. It was useless. Everyone
involved in it should be shot. Like you can acknowledge
the things that did well. It just wasn't your
kind of movie. Yeah. I feel like we've given
it less of a kicking than we gave Pillion, definitely.
True. Yeah, that is definitely true. And it is,
to be fair, it is a well -made film. Yeah. Crash.
Pillion too, to be fair. I just had my issues
with that. Yeah. It is a really well -made film.
It is always interesting to watch 30 -year -old
films with modern eyes. Yeah. I suppose, like,
some of the scenes when they were driving were
a little bit cheesy. Because the actors do this
thing where, like... You can tell they're on
a soundstage somewhere and they're playing a
video of a road scene behind them. But what they
do with the steering wheel, it's like, I can't,
how do you do this on an audio -only podcast?
They're sort of wiggling it. They're wiggling
it all the time. And you're like, if you were
actually doing that in a car, you would be S
-ing along the road like nobody's business, which
might be the point for Crash. For Crash, to be
fair, yeah. They are trying to crash. But yeah,
they're really kind of going at the steering
wheel to demonstrate that they are acting, that
they are driving. Yeah. It's little things like
that, which I kind of look at it and go, oh my
God, we used to think this was peak cinema. Peak
filmmaking. And you can see the age of the movie
because there was bush. Yes. Yeah. Pubic hair.
Actual pubic hair. Yeah. Unheard of. You're right.
And like, it shouldn't be in any way shocking,
but it is a little bit. When you see it in a
film. Yeah, I think it is starting to swing back
a little bit. I feel like I have seen a little
bit more very, very well trimmed and groomed
pubic hair in movies of late. But there was a
good chunk of time where, if you saw anything,
it was shaved or waxed. Yeah. Weird. I mean,
I am also fully shaved, but that's not... That's
because my job is to be a bimbo fleshlight and...
Yeah. And you like to give me loads of grooming
tasks to do to keep me busy. Yeah, yeah. It's
not because that is the default that everyone
should adhere to. yeah um literally the the very
epitome of just because i can yeah because i
don't care like in normal day -to -day normal
day -to -day interactions how much pussy are
you seeing your normal day -to -day interactions
um without being a pervert not quite as much
as i would like but like as a as a default i
don't care yeah anyway yeah i i don't know what
i was expecting from the wrap -up but discussing
my pubic hair wasn't wasn't on the list but there
we go no well this is what this is what you get
when you just write wrap up however you want
exactly we get good content where we talk about
something random that the listeners will love
to hear i'm sure for anyone who hasn't picked
up on this already my outlines that i write tend
to end up with wrap up however you like and when
it's my turn to wrap up They have no objection
to that. But when it says mix, wrap up however
you like, they hootle, they fuss, they kick up
a stink, they complain. They say that they've
had no notice when they've had the outline in
their inbox for three days. And yet they always
do a great job. Pay attention to how they wrap
up. They always do awesome. So I think you just
need to in confidence yourself. In confidence
myself. Yes. I just need to stop being a whiny
little bitch. I would never say such a thing
to you, Mix. On that note. Thanks everyone for
listening. Bye. See you next time.