Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,
a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we're going to be
talking about degradation and humiliation. Oh,
you'd like that, wouldn't you? You'd enjoy that,
wouldn't you, you little pervert? Yeah, mix.
That was so easy. I know. I know. It is not difficult.
No. I am a little turned on by that. Such a simple
creature. I know. Oh, well, get yourself together.
We have a podcast to record. I know. We are podcasting
professionals. Podcasting, serious podcasting
people. So I thought to start off, we should
probably talk about what degradation and humiliation
actually are. always a good place to start yes
and i'm glad that this is your section because
it's actually quite hard it is i had to google
it to make sure i was getting this right because
i i was right it turned out when i googled it
but they are words that we tend to use a little
bit interchangeably i just sort of flip backwards
and forwards between them and just go on vibes
yeah that's That seems perfectly sensible. Yeah.
I mean, like we're going to explain what they
are and what the difference between them is,
just so people are clear why there's two words
for essentially a very similar topic. But language
is only as useful as you want it to be. Like
if you just call it all degradation because that
makes sense in your brain, I think that's fine.
Yeah, I think so. So what we're basically saying
is that as we go through this podcast and we
change our own internal definitions of degradation
and humiliation, depending on what we're talking
about. In fact, we meant to do that. Of course,
yes. To illustrate the point. Very deliberate.
We're doing it as critique of the prescriptive
nature of language mix. Yes. So degradation first.
Degradation is about creating feelings of being
lesser in some way. So triggering feelings of
worthlessness, uselessness, feeling objectified.
So less than human being reduced to the status
of an object. So that could include, for example,
things like a human ashtray, which is a favorite
of mine or human furniture in general, but also
being treated like an animal. in a distinct way
from pet play i think there's a difference between
playing as an animal and being treated like an
animal and it's yeah being treated like an animal
tends to come into degradation though the line
is definitely blurry there yeah you got that
kind of Like cows and pigs seem to be quite a
popular genre of that kind of degradation. Yeah,
though those can also be people's personas for
pet play as well. This is where it gets really
complicated. But yeah, I'm definitely a pig more
in the sense of it's degrading to be a pig than
I want you to treat me like your pet pig and...
Yes. Fuss me. Yes. Fuss you. Fuss you like a
pig. Yes, I would fuss a pig. you have fussed
a pig i have fussed a pig several pigs yeah i
love to fuss pigs it's great that we're talking
about how cows and pigs are examples of how like
animal like qualities can be a form of degradation
and i am a person who you regularly call pig
and i'm sitting here right now wearing a fluffy
cow print tracksuit yes really like going for
the right vibe here and it is a very cute tracksuit
as well it is i might say absolute stellar find
on um tell me yeah by the time this episode comes
out people are going to be sick of seeing it
on tiktok because it's all i'm going to be wearing
yeah true anyway some other examples of degradation
would also be being treated like a sex toy and
verbal degradation to meet any of those kind
of needs so yeah language and insults and sort
of call and response kind of questioning designed
to bring up those feelings of being lesser yes
that's really good really clear definition yeah
i googled it Yeah. So then degradation. No. No.
You've just done degradation. We've started already.
So then humiliation is about triggering feelings
of shame or a little bit less common, but also
embarrassment would definitely fall under humiliation.
Yeah. That's not one you see quite as often,
but it's definitely very much some people's thing.
Wanting that sort of feeling of like, you know,
when you have that dream that you're in school
and the teacher asks you a question, you realize
you've got no pants on. Yeah. Some people are
really trying to capture that in their king.
And that would be humiliation. That would be
humiliation, yes. But also things like insults
to appearance, bringing up insecurities, potentially
playing with trauma can fall under this, bringing
up past behaviours, so things that you're ashamed
of that you've done in the past, being laughed
at or being publicly humiliated, so things like
going out wearing unflattering clothing and public
scenes designed to trigger shame. Obviously,
we would always hope that if people are doing
that, they're doing it in an ethical way. So
when I say public, I mean at a kink event where
people are on board with some public humiliation.
getting on not in Tesco's no let's not do that
there's definitely a lot of overlap between these
two even aside from people being unsure about
the exact boundary between them like there's
a lot of things that you can do during play that
could tap into both of these so a verbal degradation
scene is often degradation and humiliation you
will often say things to me that treat me as
something lesser make me feel sort of small and
worthless and useless and all of that while also
looking for things that will trigger a shame
response because shame is super hot to me yes
it is you definitely enjoy both sides of that
coin very much yes don't you yeah um and i think
that's probably for me that's the that's the
thing with the with the two sides of it they
are two sides of a coin yeah especially when
it comes to language it can be quite hard to
differentiate between what is degrading and what
is humiliating yeah um and i think to be fair
a lot of it is in how it is received rather than
how it is given definitely when you know a partner
well or you've negotiated well for a scene you
have a fair amount of fine control over the emotions
that you trigger in a person but that's never
an exact science things can hit very differently
one day to the next or with a very slight change
in wording you're going to get a different response
and this stuff is part of a much broader category
of emotional sadomasochism so that would include
things like fear play in there as well for example
so where you're playing with any of those strong
emotions that are commonly seen as negative or
difficult or challenging. And yes, you can sort
of box those into little categories, go this
is about fear and this is about shame and this
is about feeling less than. But actually all
of those lines are going to be really blurry
and a lot of the time the feeling is going to
be quite hard to identify and might be crossing
over between all of those and several others
as well. Yeah, because I don't think I ever,
I don't think I consciously set out to either
degrade or to humiliate you. I kind of... I just
mean to you. Yeah. I suppose that's not strictly
true. It depends what we're doing. Yeah. So there's
a lot of what we do, which is around objectification.
Like the bimbofication thing that we do is all
about objectifying you, about reducing you to
a plastic sex doll that I play with and dress
up and do whatever I want to. Yeah. There's an
element of degradation to that because you are
being treated as something that is less than
human. You are reduced to a pretty set of holes.
Yes, mix. Kind of thing. There you go again.
A little smile, a little wiggle on the sofa.
Oh, yes. But we don't do that in a humiliating
way in order to make you feel shame about that.
I would say that our general bimbofication as
part of our dynamic has never included humiliation,
but we have definitely included humiliation in
play that is based around the bimbofication mix.
So things like scenes we've done where you've
had me watching bimbo porn and been pointing
out to me all the ways that I am not as good
as the bimbos in the porn. Saying, look at her
tits, look at her lips, you'll never be as hot
as this, stuff like that. I would say that starts
to then move more into humiliation. right but
with the degradation aspect of me also being
dehumanized by the process of you sort of reshaping
me in that way yeah see it's not easy is it it's
not mixed but it's fun to think about and it's
interesting and i feel like this is going to
be one of those episodes that even though we
kind of already know what we're going to say
going into it just having this conversation for
a couple of hours we're going to have a much
deeper understanding of these kinks which is
always fun yes possibly Oh, we'll get to the
end of it. Christ, whose idea was this one? Jesus
Christ, my head hurts. Well, it was my idea.
So if you are really frustrated and find the
subject matter difficult, Mix, you know who to
take it out on. Take it out on you. Call you
stupid for having such a bad idea for an episode.
Yeah, Mix. All of that kind of stuff. I think
it's going to be a cracking one. I think everyone's
going to enjoy this one. Good. I hope so. For
your sake. So how about you start us off with
a little bit about what you get out of degradation
and humiliation mix? Because it was interesting
you said you don't necessarily always set out
with a specific emotional reaction in mind. I
don't think it's that I don't set out with a
particular emotional response in mind. I guess
what I meant was I don't necessarily separate
the two in my head. And I think it is a really
blurry line between what is just degradation
and what is just humiliation and what is a combination
of the two. I think it's a really movable thing
depending on the context and the scene and what
the plan is. Which makes it really difficult
to talk about because it's like, how do you separate
the two? I think a lot of what I get out of it,
which is a really interesting thing to think
about given... where we started with some of
this stuff i think what i get out of it is that
permission to just be an arsehole and to to kind
of to have that permission to say say and do
things that you just don't do or say to another
person i think there's an element of that for
me as well because especially when we're thinking
about your life experiences which have not all
been great um kind of there's something there
about using those for play purposes or to exploit
them for play or sexual purposes which is really
really quite powerful and and and quite exciting
really difficult to get your head around at first
and it was really difficult to get my head around
it at first um because you have that kind of
moral battle in your head about just because
you can doesn't mean you should um so i think
that's a yeah there's an element of that to it
and i think the way that we do it especially
around behavioural language, which is specifically
more on the degrading side of things. Like it's
just hot. Like it is one of those things that
for me, there's not necessarily a really kind
of deep and meaningful thing to it. It's just
really hot. Yeah, I agree. I think like we always
try to go really deep and really analyse what's
going on. But ultimately, the reason we do any
of this stuff is because we like it. That's a
really simple answer. And sometimes it is at
least on the level we're consciously aware of
that is about as deep as it gets. It's just this
turns me on. This turns you on. Let's do it.
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But I think it's one
of those things which is often tied to other
parts of our kink and our dynamic and the things
that I enjoy. So we have free use as part of
our dynamic. And there are different ways you
could go about doing that. So just because I
can initiate sex whenever I want. doesn't mean
that I have to do it in a particular way. It
could be, and you would hate this, which is always
a fun thing to think about, but it could be really
quiet missionary on a Tuesday night. Oh no. All
the time. And that would be okay. Yeah. From
my perspective, from the concept of free use,
but what we layer on top of that is, I'm just
going to treat you like a flashlight and just
fuck you however, wherever, whenever I want to.
For the sole purpose of getting myself off. Yeah.
I particularly like sometimes when you do that,
you'll walk into the room. Usually it's if I'm
still in bed and you've already got up or if
I've like had a nap or if I'm like restful and
peaceful and having a nice time. Yeah. You'll
walk into the room and say, get on your back
or bend over. I need to masturbate. And that's
so dehumanizing. Like you're not even acknowledging
it as sex. It's just masturbation using me. And
that's. yeah that is really hot yeah so i think
that's the that's the that it's like the um i've
suddenly forgotten all food i'm trying to think
of a really good food analogy what you can what
we're doing there is kind of layering degradation
on top on top of something else yeah so the being
able to have sex whenever i want is is the main
thing that is in a dehumanizing degrading objectifying
kind of way So that layer of degradation, it's
like jalapenos on top of nachos. Not strictly
necessary, but makes it a better experience.
Yeah. You know? I agree with that. That was a
good one. It was. And they're spicy. And they're
spicy. There you go. So I think degradation particularly
is a really good way of kind of enhancing the
things that we do already. Yeah. And I guess
humiliation would be as well. And you think about
most of the time when we're doing kind of like
an impact scene, I'm not being particularly kind
of verbally mean to you. Yeah, you're often really
nice during impact. Yeah. Giving me lots of praise
and lots of head pettings and things like that.
Yeah, telling you you're doing a good job. But
every now and again, I will berate you for shuffling
about and trying to get away and hootling and
shrieking and all of the rest of it and kind
of say things like, I'm hardly hitting you. Yeah.
What are you doing? Stop being so useless kind
of thing. and I think that kind of moves more
into humiliation I think to make you feel a little
bit embarrassed about the fact that the way that
you are reacting yeah definitely because it does
it does like I always even though I know from
how other people have reacted to seeing me play
like I've got a pretty high pain threshold and
I can take a pretty good beating but every time
we're doing impact it always feels like it's
not hard enough for how I'm reacting to it I
always feel like I'm being a little bit of a
wuss. So if you start telling me I am, it's like
my worst fears are coming true. It's like, no,
no. Yeah. I mean, that's not something that we
do very often. Because like you say, when we're
doing an impact scene, it is like for what is
occurring, generally actually quite chill. Yeah.
Psychologically chill. Psychologically chill.
Yeah. I think. No, you don't. No, I don't. I
very rarely think. See, this is the thing, because
you sent this three ages ago, I thought about
it at the time and now it's all gone out of my
head. You complain if I send you the outline
too far in advance because you've forgotten it
and you complain if I send it you five minutes
before because you haven't had time to think.
Maybe this is a skill issue. Yeah, it is a skill
issue. You need to find the right time to send
it to me. you need to do better i think one of
the other things which has been really interesting
in how we've approached degradation and humiliation
compared to how i've done it in the past i think
it's probably fair to say that with with previous
partners i think the focus has probably been
more on degradation than it has been on over
humiliation yeah and pretty light degradation
at that you know you know kind of a little bit
objectifying calling someone a slut and a whore
and stuff like that And not really much beyond
that, really. It's so interesting, and this is
not a criticism of you, because this is definitely
something that is very widespread, that we think
of that as light degradation, but those are slurs.
And if it was slurs against any other group,
that's the heavy shit. Yeah. Like what I've done
quite a lot of transphobia play with people saying,
including you, saying horrific things about my
gender identity and my transition and things.
And that is considered quite extreme and quite
controversial. Yeah. But we don't think of misogyny
in the same terms. And like I said, this isn't
a criticism of you because a lot of sort of kinky,
submissive women who want to start dipping their
toe in degradation, those are the things they'll
suggest. It's like, don't get too personal, but
you can call me a slut. And it's like, we should
unpack that a little bit. We probably should
unpack that. And I think what I meant was comparatively.
Yes. Compared to some of the things that we do,
notwithstanding that everything you have just
said is right. It is relatively light. It is
at the less extreme end of the whole continuum
of what could be degrading behaviour and language.
Yeah. Because whether it is the right thing or
not, it is generally accepted within a safe and
consensual space. Yeah. Not everybody, but if
you're going to be comfortable with degrading
words as a female submissive or a female presenting
submissive, slut and whore are probably going
to be the words. Yeah, it's definitely very,
very common. It's just, it's always an interesting
thing and it risks becoming a huge diversion
how misogyny kink. is sort of so mainstream and
seen as often quite tame yeah where any of the
other kinks that play with gender identity that
play with race that play with body type that
play with disability yeah suddenly are a lot
more niche and a lot more of a sticky area um
and i definitely i i love a bit of misogyny kink
you know in a consensual environment with someone
that i trust and know isn't an actual misogynist
it's great um but i think it makes it sometimes
hard to navigate as a kink community the difference
between misogyny kink and masked misogyny within
the community because it's because it's so rife
you have to get really good at reading between
the lines to tell whether someone's approaching
it in a good way or not so yeah that's a diversion
for another time yeah no i think it's a really
interesting thing to think about with this with
this topic because you're absolutely right it's
with any kind of degrading language um You have
to be really careful about thinking, particularly
from the giver's perspective, what's actually
going on there. It's like you say, there's a
difference between play that imitates misogyny
and just misogyny. Yeah. In the same way that
play that imitates transphobia versus actual
transphobic views. Yeah. Two very different things.
Yeah. But about 40 minutes ago. Don't, because
people will ask me for the cut 40 minutes and
it has not been that long. No, you're right.
It's been 72. So my experience of using degrading
language and being degrading towards someone
is very much in that mainstream idea of what
it is. Yeah. And then I met you and... with my
permission and consent you basically trauma dumped
on me yeah um and you didn't do that in a pushy
way you didn't do that in a way that was about
eliciting sympathy or anything like that you
know it was was here is a bunch of stuff that
you could weaponize and use against me for sex
reasons yeah um and i was a little bit blown
away by that because that was a lot of information
to receive in one go. But it was also really,
really intimate. And I think there's something
about that for me as well with the way that we
do degradation and humiliation, as well as layering
it on top of other things. It really, it kind
of shows me who you are. I agree. I think it's
one of the more intimate kinks because to hit
someone well, you need to understand anatomy.
To hurt someone emotionally, you need to understand
the anatomy of that person's mind very specifically.
Like, yeah, there's things you can say that are
going to, be somewhat offensive or hurtful to
pretty much anybody yeah but to do it well you
need the detail yeah and it's a really big trust
exercise as well where negotiating that as you
say it does involve giving you the weapons whether
that is telling you about past trauma or deeply
held insecurities or anything along those lines
like if you're going to start doing this in a
way that's more effective than just you know
spit in my mouth and call me a slut You have
to start getting really specific. It's a great
second date activity. And spitting in your mouth
and calling you a slut is fun. We do that. Yeah,
always a good time. Everyone's having fun there.
But I think, yeah, there's something really quite
powerful, really quite intimate about knowing
the things about you that will cause a negative
emotional response and using that against you.
yeah there's something really quite like almost
intoxicating about that experience of knowing
that stuff about you is in itself an intimate
thing and and demonstrates a level of trust for
being able to kind of weaponize that in that
way and and and produce a sobbing wreck of a
human person on the on the floor in front of
me is yeah really quite powerful yeah which if
you think about the journey that we've been on
with that stuff is quite remarkable, given where
we started. Yeah, because I know you found this
quite scary. Yeah. And you didn't know if you'd
be good at it. You didn't know if you'd be comfortable
with it. And there were definitely times where
I never pushed you to go faster than you were
comfortable with. But I think you pushed yourself
at times because you were keen and you did find
it hot. And I think there was maybe an element
of wanting to sort of keep up with me because
you knew I was used to a lot of that. And there
were times where you definitely pushed yourself
a bit too far. just crashed into a wall at full
speed and we needed to rebuild you before we
could approach it again yeah but you've come
a long way you're very good at this stuff now
thanks i am i'm a bastard i'm really good at
being a bastard he's an evil evil person he's
in my nature but what about you What do you get
from being degraded and humiliated? I think you've
definitely touched on some of the answers for
me as well, Mix. The intimacy of it is a big
one. You know, this is usually your go -to answer,
but the power of it for you, the way that you
have that power to kind of tug on my emotions
and control my responses in that way. A lot of
it for me, you know, usual disclaimer, kink is
not therapy, but I have found a lot of healing
through it. And I wouldn't suggest that people
set out with the goal of using this as a fix
for any mental health issues. But as a side effect
of enjoying it and finding it hot, I found that
it has increased my confidence a lot. It's helped
me to kind of process and work through a lot
of things that are difficult to look at on my
own. But getting them out to play with with a
partner feels like a much safer environment for
that. It takes a lot of power out of things for
me where some of the worst things that I think
about myself and things that have really hit
me hard when other people have said them to me
or said them about me. When I get those out with
someone that I trust and allow them to say those
things and reenact some of that stuff and heighten
some of that stuff and make it even worse. And
then afterwards we have a cuddle and we order
a pizza and everything's chill. It makes me realize
like those things don't have that much weight.
it takes them out of being something real and
into a toy that we play with and that is something
that does a lot for me um and it's hot it's hot
i don't know exactly probably a combination of
all those things and several others as well but
something about being particularly like verbally
insulted and being objectified are kind of two
of my really big things that just really get
me going yeah a lot of your kink seems to centre
around being used and being useful. Yeah, that
sums it up really well. So that ties into, obviously,
service. It ties into the bimbofication we do.
It ties into free use. It ties into all forms
of consensual non -consent play. It ties into
human ashtray. There's this big spider web of
objectification just all the way through so many
of my favourite kinks. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah.
We've mentioned how that sits under the broader
emotional sadomasochism umbrella. Yep. Which
is a really big topic and probably about seven
episodes in their own right to properly do that
justice. How did that come about for you? How
did you discover that side of your kink? Yeah,
because I can talk about that definitely all
day, probably. I think, as you touched on, emotional
sadomasochism is so much more of a broad topic.
And I think that was definitely the first thing.
The emotional masochism was the first thing that
I identified, but I didn't really know what to
do with that. And that was a very toxic situationship
I had before I started consciously exploring
kink, where someone was essentially head -fucking
me. Not in a consensual and negotiated way. Yeah,
yeah. Things like, you know, getting upset with
me because I had too much to drink on a date
and I was a bit of a mess. And so I would say,
fine, I'll drink less next time we go out. And
then we would go out and he would be buying me
drinks every five minutes and then attacking
me for being a mess. That sort of mind games.
And it was awful. And it ended, luckily. But
I realised... Yeah, that wasn't me. No. Though
we could play with some stuff like that. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. She's given me an idea. But it did
make me realise there is something for me where...
I get off on that. And I didn't want to explore
it in that way. But it made me realise there
was something about having a partner who could
make me sob on the floor was something that was
essential to me in a relationship. To feel desire
and to feel desired and to feel close. And I
was like, well, that's fucked up and I don't
know what to do with that. So maybe I'll ask
people to just like hit me and pull my hair and
spit in my mouth and that will meet the same
need and we don't have to examine that too closely.
So that's what I set out to do. And I... There
was someone that at the time I'd been friends
with for a few years who I knew was involved
in the kink community and I asked if that person
wanted to hook up and just kind of give me a
trial session of kink, essentially. And I didn't
know a lot about kink. And so my suggestions
were like, just hit me with some stuff. And then
because they had more experience, they sort of
rattled off a whole list of things and was like,
is any of this interesting to you? Tell me some
things that you think are limits for you, at
least for now. Tell me some things that you're
curious about, want to try. Tell me which of
these things you are unsure about. Really good
approach to it. Really good sort of starting
point into kink, I think. But one of the things
on that very long list was verbal degradation.
And I was like, oh, is that what it sounds like?
And they were like, yeah, like calling your names
and being a bit mean. And I was like, yeah, no,
I want to give that a go. So I can't remember
the specifics of what they said in that first
hookup, but I'm pretty sure it was things like
calling me a slut and a bitch and, you know,
the stuff that you think of as entry level until
you think about it for five minutes and go, hmm.
But I liked it. and i wanted more of it and i
immediately started doing some googling and some
searching around on fat life and i was like okay
this verbal degradation stuff can get pretty
interesting so i was texting them and be like
how about like commenting on my body yeah and
and my weight and they were like ah and i was
like and how about bringing up the fact that
i was abused when i was a kid and they were like
ah i was like how about attacking my gender identity
and degrading me because i'm non -binary and
they were like um and then they were like yeah
fuck it and i'll do all of that and and we also
was not me no it is a similar similar pipeline
yeah Yeah, so we tried quite a bit. And there
were areas of that that they found quite comfortable
and found their feet with and were able to do.
And there were areas of that that were not so
much within their comfort zone. A pattern that
started with that relationship and has continued
throughout my... my kink experiences is that
my limits with psychological play in general
are really far out and hard to hit and i tend
to run smack bang into dom's limits on this stuff
well before mine which is fine i think that's
probably quite good to keep me in check sometimes
and also everyone it's really valid to have limits
and i think a lot of this stuff is harder for
the top than it is for the bottom a lot of the
time yep it's you have to hear yourself saying
some really awful shit like i know i'm getting
off on it in the moment you don't necessarily
i think that's harder But yeah, they were up
for a lot and we did quite a lot. So we started
playing around with things like bringing up my
past as a sex worker, which isn't something I
consider shameful. But I had some really difficult
times during that period of my life being shamed
by other people and going through traumatic experiences.
And it's not hard to tap into those feelings.
It's not about me thinking like, oh God, I'm
so ashamed that I had sex for money because I'm
not and I never have been. But I experienced
some really pervasive shame because of the way
that the world responds to sex workers. Then
that continued after that relationship ended
and I had my relationship with Hope. who obviously
has been on the podcast before go check out her
episodes they are fantastic yes um but yeah my
relationship with hope for two years she had
a lot of previous experience of doing emotional
sadomasochism heavy verbal degradation humiliation
um a lot of fear play psychological play in general
like she she really knew her shit with this stuff
so because i already knew enough to know i wanted
more we really hit the ground running with that
We really, we like the head fucky, messed up,
dark, gritty side of kink. Yeah. But even with
her, we definitely did run into her limits sometimes.
A big one for me that I always wanted to try
was having scenes where someone was telling me
that I was unlovable or like mocking me for thinking
that they could be in love with me. Like having
a loving relationship with someone and having
them say that stuff. Super hot to me. That first
partner could not do that. Hope could not do
that. And you took a long time to be able to
do that. And I think that's still your hardest
one. Yeah, definitely is. Yeah. Definitely is.
I think that is fundamentally different from
some of the other things. Because I think, in
my head anyway, almost all of the things that
we do around degradation and humiliation are
about you. I am critiquing your body, your experiences.
I am directing slurs at you. When you get into
talking about... You being unlovable and you
being foolish for thinking that this is anything
other than a transactional relationship, which
are things that I have said to you. That's about
me. Yeah. And that sounds really, really selfish.
But it hits different. Yeah. Well, you're not
an emotional masochist. So saying something that
hurts your own feelings is always going to be
a bit tricky. Yeah. And I think it also kind
of strays into an area where it is potentially
harder for you to discern. that I don't mean
it. Yeah. If that makes sense. So just as an
example, in the episode about Findom, we talked
about the blowjob game. Yes. That we played.
As part of that scene, I said something like,
you used to get paid to do this. How on earth
did you get paid to do this when you're so fucking
useless at it? That's about you. Yeah. And you
know, we both know that that's not what I think
because you're really, really good at giving
really, really good blowjobs. Thank you. I know.
I made a lot of money doing it. You made a lot
of money doing it. And I have experienced them.
So we know that's not true. Yeah. I think when
it comes to things like saying that you're unlovable.
I think there is a slightly higher risk that
it is harder to discern that it is not true.
I think that's probably why I like it as well,
because it's my biggest fear. Yeah. It's something
that I held as a real belief for a very, very
long time. Yeah. And every relationship I've
had that has ended has just reinforced that fear.
this constant feeling of being too much for people
or not enough. And I think I have a more secure
attachment with you than I've ever had before.
Like it's something that both I have worked on
for myself because I know that constantly thinking
I'm on the edge of crisis as soon as I go on
a date with someone, they're going to abandon
me. It's not good for me. But partly also because
you are very good at giving the right amount
of reassurance in a way that doesn't encourage
me to sort of obsessively ask for reassurance,
but actively makes me feel reassured all the
time. You're a very direct person, which I think
helps. Like if there's an issue, if there's something
I'm doing that's hurting you or there's something
we need to address, you will address it. So I
can be pretty confident that if you're not saying
there's a problem, there probably isn't one.
Yeah. But I still have that fear because every
relationship I've had in the past has ended.
And generally it's been ended along with a message
that in some way I am deficient. And that's rough.
Yeah. But that's exactly why I like playing with
it because it hits really fucking hard. Hits
like a truck. Yeah. And I can see that from your
perspective. And I accept that my perspective
on it is a little bit selfish because I am hurting
my own feelings when I'm saying that because
it is everything else that I would do to you
or say to you in that degradation, humiliation
space. I know isn't true. Yeah. And I also know
that you are not unlovable. And I'm not here
just for the transaction of it. But that kind
of more direct connection to me makes it a lot
harder for me to get my head around. Does it
sort of stray into that kind of like moral injury
territory for you, Mix, where it feels like you're
creating a reality where you have been faking
elements of our relationship? That's essentially
what you'd be saying in that scenario is when
I tell you I love you, I'm lying. When I show
love to you, it's fake. It's putting yourself
into a box where you are. a genuinely terrible
person even though you're just playing with it
and even though we play with you being a terrible
person quite a lot maybe it bumps up against
a line where it's like actually this version
of a terrible person is not one i even want to
pretend to be i think i think it might be and
and that might step it becomes a bit of a feedback
loop i suppose because um i i know that about
you you know i know that that's been your experience
you've often been told by people that you're
in relationships that you are somehow deficient
Or also weirdly too much. Yeah. You know, you've
always had that. Both too much and not enough
is very much a theme of my life. Yeah. Which
like I get it. If I take a step back, I get it
because I am not necessarily a straightforward
person. I am very emotionally heightened. I think
I'm quite emotionally high maintenance. And I
think I just needed to find someone who was on
my level with that shit, which you really are.
But for a long time, I really just felt like
I'm either going to have to fundamentally change
who I am as a person or I'm going to die alone.
Those are the options. Yeah, that's which is
terrible. Well, that got real depressing. It
did. It did. But I think that I think you're
right. It is maybe straying a little bit further.
than than perhaps i am it's butting up against
my comfort level i suppose because a lot of what
we do is about targeting your insecurities and
targeting your experiences calling you unlovable
targets your insecurity but it is an insecurity
i have influence over yeah whereas a lot of the
other thing i can't really do anything about
them yeah do you know what i mean they're things
that have happened in your past they are things
that are fairly deeply ingrained in in you and
beyond being a supportive partner there isn't
a lot that i can do about that yeah whereas the
unlovable stuff actually there i could have an
influence over that yeah do you know what i mean
So, yeah, it's a difficult one. Does that make
sense? It does. You look a little bit confused.
No, I'm not looking confused, Mix. It's that
my face is all swollen from the eyelashes that
I tried to tough out. This is completely irrelevant
to the episode, but just for the awareness of
anyone listening, I am an idiot. My eyes started
itching and burning. I just thought, no, no,
I'm just going to ignore this. And it's reached
a point where most of today I basically haven't
been able to see and my eyes have been watering
constantly and I'm fully red around the eyes.
And I still didn't volunteer to take them off.
Mix put the big light on to set up for the podcast,
saw my eyes in full light for the first time
in a couple of days and went, take your eyelashes
off now, which I have. so i need to try a different
kind of glue after i heal up yes anyway so i
think this is one of the especially if you're
going to play it at the um poking at people's
insecurities and poking at people's experiences
is not something that you just kind of jump into
and go oh it'll be fine let's give that a go
kind of thing i think i don't think there's any
kinks that you should you should do that but
there are some kinks where it's probably okay
to wing it a little bit you're more likely to
get away with it yeah yeah more likely to get
away with it if you wing it a little bit but
this is definitely not one of them i don't think
um so what would you say are important things
to think about in terms of negotiating for it
and caring for each other through it and after
it yeah for sure um i First, I will admit there
has definitely been times, Mix, where I have
just fully jumped into this. Early days, I was
doing some unwise things. I would recommend that
this kind of play is best done either with someone
that you know really, really well. Or if you
are doing it as a casual pickup play with someone
that you feel comfortable getting real vulnerable
with real quickly, like you can't do this kind
of play without a good amount of trust and some
really good communication. Yeah. For me personally,
as I've developed a better understanding of my
kinks and some of the risks around them, both
to me and particularly to other people, I have
started to... take more of an approach with this
kind of play that i would probably only do it
in an established relationship or with someone
i've been playing with regularly for a while
right um it definitely wasn't always like that
but i had experiences where i triggered really
bad drop in someone else from not approaching
it carefully enough and I'm a lot more comfortable
taking risks with me than I am with other people
once I'd seen that impact it was like this isn't
something I'm going to do casually anymore however
well you try to negotiate it it just it's outside
my risk profile and that doesn't mean that it's
not right and I think if you're a really good
communicator and the person you're playing with
is a really good communicator it can be done
so I think I was going to mention this later
on but I'm going to mention it now as well there
is a really good educator for all things emotional
sadomasochism called Vahavta I'm going to put
a link to her website in the description of this
as well because I think if you have any level
of interest in this kind of play even if you're
planning to do it at a slightly lighter level
than what we're talking about it's worth getting
some proper education like she does a class about
negotiating for emotional sadomasochism and I
wish I'd done that in 2021 like I would have
approached this stuff so much more carefully
if I had it's brilliant but the main things for
me is having a good level of trust so if you
don't already have that you work on building
that before you start doing high risk psychological
play and then having really clear transparency
with each other the stuff that i like to talk
about in negotiation is talking about what you
actually want to get from it and that doesn't
have to be as specific as oh i really want you
to cry or i want you to feel this very specific
emotion but the general feel of what you're trying
to get from it and what you're not trying to
get from it is just as important, if not more
so. Because if you don't get what you want from
it, it's a bit disappointing. But if you get
a feeling you don't want from it, it might really
fuck you up. So I like to experience feelings
of numbness. I like to feel really sort of deep
feelings of sadness and grief and cry. I like
to feel fear. I don't like to feel panic. And
I don't want to experience actual trauma disorder
symptoms. So I don't want to have a flashback.
I don't want to fully dissociate. A bit of like
going a little bit fuzzy around the edges of
my brain level dissociation, great. Actually,
you know, losing time or losing chunks of memory,
absolutely not what I'm going for. So talking
about that and then talking through, and this
goes for both sides, much as you're poking at
the emotions of the submissive in these situations,
the dominant is going to have some strong feelings
as well. So talking about what feelings they
want to avoid and then talking about what you
know of what can trigger those feelings in you.
So you can then avoid the actions that lead to
the feelings. I would say this stuff applies
whether you're doing the lightest end of a little
bit of verbal degradation, you know, a few slightly
objectifying words and phrases during sex, or
you're going into trauma play. Anywhere on that
spectrum, it's worth talking about that. Even
if it's only in quite a surface level way, if
it's for lighter play, just to have an idea.
I think... talking through what a bad emotional
reaction again for everyone involved looks like
so uh we talked quite early on about what happens
if i have a flashback or if i have a panic attack
what you might see and how you should respond
to it um i actually think that's a good idea
for negotiating for any play because you never
know when something's going to trigger something
like that if you're someone who gets panic attacks
you can't guarantee that a spanking isn't going
to be the thing that sets you off one of these
days so talking about that if you're going to
be intimate with someone i think it's a good
idea because there's nothing worse than if you're
having some kind of mental health crisis and
then someone reacts in a way that makes it worse
um i've experienced this a lot if i have a flashback
or a panic attack people will try to hug me or
they will try to give me a glass of water don't
know why everyone's so obsessed with glasses
of water it's the last thing i want because i
can't breathe i definitely can't drink um but
if i'm already overwhelmed and someone grabs
me and squeezes me really tight when i feel like
i can't breathe and then he's trying to get me
to drink water when i feel like i can't breathe
my response is going to be as if you're trying
to drown me in that moment i'm not going to be
pleased um so talking about stuff like that because
that's my need someone else's might be the complete
opposite so yeah you kind of plan for how you
deal with a bad thing if it happens you talk
about the kind of good things you want to have
and then you start do as i say not as i do start
at a low level and work up relatively slowly
don't jump from first degradation experience
to throw everything in the kitchen sink at me
and see what happens yeah um you want to ramp
up in a gradual way so that you can see how it's
sitting with you not just in the scene not just
the immediate aftermath but also potentially
a couple of weeks later you don't want to have
like a sort of stacking effect where you play
with four people in four days and then they all
hit you on day eight yeah not a good time no
not at all and i think talking about different
aftercare needs i think for that kind this kind
of play degradation humiliation emotional play
i think almost you you need to talk specifically
about the aftercare that you need for that versus
anything else yeah it can often be very different
it definitely is for me I tend to have quite
low aftercare needs for any kind of play like
I do in most cases bounce back quite well but
I find this probably makes perfect logical sense
for physical play I need more physical aftercare
so I need a cigarette I need a drink I need some
food I need a warm blanket I need a hug psychological
play I need to talk I tend to be quite chatty
I want to debrief the scene i want to give reassurance
to my partner and potentially receive some reassurance
i tend to need that less i tend to want to give
more um but i want i want our brains to connect
and for them to get back into the place that
they normally are at so very verbal and i think
in my experience at least everyone's going to
vary but in my experience at least like tops
and dominance need a lot of aftercare from this
yeah um usually more than not just me like usually
more than kind of an average bottom will um because
i think in the aftermath is where you kind of
suddenly remember all the things you've said
and done and go oh my god yeah and it's very
common for dominance to need a lot of verbal
and physical reassurance and comfort i think
yeah i think that's fair i'm thinking about my
own aftercare needs when we do any any kind of
play like generally speaking like you say if
we're doing something physical then i will come
and give you a cuddle afterwards but like that's
that's less of a need for me. Obviously, it's
always nice to have a cuddle. Yeah. But I don't
feel like I need that to be able to kind of process
the scene. Whereas when we do things that are
more kind of psychological or emotional, then
I definitely do need that more. And actually,
sometimes what I need is to go outside and stare
at the grass for a bit. Yeah. You know, there's
been a few times where we've done something where
it's like, I've made sure that you're okay. But
I've said, I just need to go and decompress for
a few minutes outside, get some fresh air, look
at some flowers, have a cigarette, and then I'll
come back. Yeah. Just to kind of provide that,
I think, little bit of separation between the
scene and the aftercare for me. And I definitely
think that in itself is an aftercare need. And
for you, it's never been a long period. But there
are people who just want to be alone after a
scene for sometimes hours. They really they just
want whoever they've been playing with to go
away and leave them to process for a bit. And
that wouldn't be for me. That wouldn't be my
preference. I'm absolutely fine with with you
or if I was playing with someone else with anybody
needing a few minutes to themselves. But being
fully alone for a long period after a scene would
be really challenging for me and I think would
trigger drop. But I think there's almost a stigma
about it when people say that they don't want
to receive any aftercare or they don't want to
give any aftercare. Often what they're trying
to communicate is my aftercare need is quiet,
alone, processing time. yeah and that's just
as valid as anything else it could be a deal
breaker it could be a compatibility issue yeah
if you're someone who needs like two hours of
cuddling and chatting yeah you can't really play
with someone who needs two hours of complete
alone time like at least one of you is gonna
end up having a terrible time there yeah that's
a compatibility issue but that doesn't mean that
any anyone in that situation is wrong i agree
it's one of those truisms isn't it about what
aftercare looks like if you don't provide aftercare
you're a bad person well actually maybe maybe
that's them like you say that's them communicating
a need yeah and i'm not saying that there aren't
people out there who don't provide aftercare
because they're bad people they definitely are
but that kind of universal truth of this is what
aftercare looks like and if you're not doing
it like this it is wrong yeah and bad and you
are wrong and bad is is just as unhelpful as
as anything else yeah the time that it's bad
is if people have negotiated for aftercare and
then and then someone doesn't deliver yeah unless
there's some kind of emergency or something's
come up for them where they just can't someone
just going actually now fuck that i'm just gonna
go that's when it becomes an issue yeah um but
as long as everyone's clear and upfront about
about what their aftercare needs are and can
find a way to make those work together that's
their business So we've talked quite a lot about
how verbal aspects of degradation and humiliation
can be used. I think that's a really strong focus
for both of us. But another one that I really
enjoy and you really enjoy is what I would consider
the umbrella of gross kinks. Do you want to talk
to us about those, Mix? The umbrella of gross
kinks. Yes, Mix. Oh, that was a fun topic. Yeah,
and I think... I think the first thing to say
is that a lot of those kind of kinks exist in
their own right. They're not of themselves degrading
and humiliating necessarily. I think for us and
for me, they're back to my jalapenos analogy.
They're the jalapenos on the nachos. So in this
case, the jalapenos are piss, spit, cum, vomit
and... such things mix yes yeah tasty little
tasty little treats tasty little mortals um on
there um so yeah weirdly one of the grossest
things i do to you is i spit on your face yeah
i don't know why that above all of the things
that i do to you The time you spit in my tea
was worse. That was the grossest thing you've
ever done to me. And people listening to this
as we get further into this section are going
to dispute that that's the grossest thing. But
I maintain the grossest thing was when you brought
me a cup of tea, made direct eye contact and
then spat in it. Yeah. I did drink it though.
You did drink it. Yeah. I think that was probably
one of the meanest things I've ever done to you.
Yeah. It's probably something about the fact
that we're British. It is. Tea is like a... holy
thing it is British blasphemy that to interfere
with someone's cuppa yeah but it was great fun
yeah and it was great fun seeing the look on
your face when I did it because I didn't make
no announcement of it I just made you a cup of
tea and then spat in it and then went about my
day which was which was amazing um but there
is something isn't there about bodily fluids
that feels a little bit icky and can add a layer
of degradation to whatever you're you're doing
so whether you're kneeling on the floor and i
am slapping you about and then i spit on your
face or um one of the things that i really like
to do is to um fuck your throat so violently
that you throw up and piss yourself that's one
of my favorites too yeah yeah um just add to
the to add to the objectification of using your
mouth in the way that I am using it to then have
you just vomit all over the place and then pee
yourself on the on the bath mat yeah there's
something about like the aftermath of those scenes
which is always good as well because usually
when you do that to me it's usually in the bathroom
for the sake of our carpets yes so I throw up
I piss myself and then usually you'll either
come on my face or you'll fuck me and come inside
me yeah and then I end up just sort of like slumped
on the bathroom floor tear street face really
sweaty vomit splattered all over me cum dripping
out of me from one end or the other yeah sitting
in my own piss and it's just so depraved it's
just like just really sticky and utterly ruined
and it just feels so good and it really plays
into that kind of dehumanization stuff as well
doesn't it that kind of absolutely less than
a person right now you couldn't get any lower
yeah if you tried um and we will try i think
there's an interesting thing about um poop poop
poop so scat play is a kink in its own in its
own right people don't necessarily do that for
reasons of degradation and humiliation but they
might yeah some people are just into it yeah
a lot of people it can tie into vulnerability
as well from some of the stuff that i've read
on fetlife it's there's something very very intimate
about pooping which is like the most private
thing to involve someone else in that yeah but
it often for a lot of people it has crossover
with with humiliation and it's a really interesting
thing for us because that's not one of our kinks
scat is not one of our kinks no it's just not
something that either of us are into if people
are into it love that for you i wish you a life
full of poop i am one of the most aggressive
scat allies because i have so many kinks that
people are like oh that's gross oh that's fucked
up oh you should be ashamed of that so i'm so
defensive of anyone else who's getting that shit
i mean yeah yeah shit's maybe the wrong word
getting that stuff thrown their way um like i've
i've known it's not much better no it's not no
it's not i'm sorry But no, I've met a few people
who are into scat and often are made to feel
like outsiders in the kink community. And it
tends to be one of those things where people
are like, oh, I'd be up for anything except that.
And that's fine if that is your one limit. But
it's the way that it's presented as if that's
so obvious that no one would do that when people
do. That's the difference, isn't it? It's like,
I'm up for anything except scat, obviously. It's
the obviously that's the problem, yeah. Yeah,
it's horrible to behave like that. So that's
not something that we are into, but it is a risk
that we take that we do some accidental scat
play. Because obviously I like to put things
in your butt. Yeah. Generally my penis. And without
really any warning. So because of the free use
arrangement we have and the fact that like mix
likes to be spontaneous, so they might not even
know when they're planning to butt fuck me. We
basically just do it when we do it. And if shit
happens, shit happens. Yes. I try to eat a reasonably
good diet. I try to do things to minimize that
risk. But I'm not going and douching before we
do anal because I don't get that kind of warning.
No. So it is a risk we take. And it's interesting.
I'm not interested in what would be considered
scat play. So actively playing in shit is not
for me. But I definitely do find there's an interesting
thing that happens in my brain where if we do
anal and it gets a bit messy, I am deeply and
genuinely. horrified and humiliated like it's
really i feel really bad i'd feel bad for you
and i feel just gross but because of who i am
as a person i also get off on that yeah so i
think it's not something that we're likely to
really push at beyond that but i think i think
a lot of people who say that scat is a limit
and they're not into scat if they really examine
some of their kinks they would realize they have
more scat adjacent kinks than they think if you
say that scat is a hard limit but you do anal
then you're lying about it being a hard limit
because you're willing to take that risk um like
if you're doing butt stuff if you're doing ass
to mouth if you're eating ass particularly like
these are scat adjacent kinks you might not want
someone to actively poop while you're doing those
things but you are you are getting real up close
and personal with it and i think people should
have a bit more self -awareness about that sometimes
because yeah i think a lot of the fascination
that we have with butts does come from there
yeah and you might just be on the fringes of
scat and that's okay i'm quite happy being on
the fringes of scat i don't need to go any further
in but i do like to be honest about where i am
yes i always remember i think it was a pal of
ours wasn't it we were talking about butt stuff
um and they said you know you have to accept
that if you're going to put something in someone's
butt there's a chance of there being some poop
involved because you are intruding on poop's
domain. Poop is not intruding in your domain.
Yeah. It's a really good way of thinking about
it. It's a funny one because I've never really
exploited that. And given the kind of person
that I am, you'd think I would. But whenever
that happens, whenever you are worried, after
I have fucked you in the butt, that there might
have been a small accident of some kind, you're
always really apologetic. Yeah. I'm going to
go, oh, I'm sorry. And like 99 % of the time,
nothing's happened. We have been quite lucky.
Yeah. I think with not having any kind of major...
I love how you say it's luck when I'm micromanaging
everything that goes into my body to control
it. Yeah, that's true. That's a fair point. Top
privilege here. Like, what? Like, it's just naturally
clean back there. Is it? It's fine. But we haven't
had many incidents, I suppose. But I have also
never really kind of exploited that and kind
of leaned into the humiliation of it. Yeah. You
know, I think if it does, I should remember this.
And if it does happen, kind of really lean into
humiliating you for it. So moving swiftly on
from poop. I guess another fluid that we haven't
mentioned is tears. yeah and you um you very
you very much enjoy crying yes and you very much
enjoy me crying so it's a good combination definitely
enjoy you crying there is a word for it isn't
there there is a philia of uh for crying dacrophilia
dacrophilia that's a great name for it so yeah
i think i would i would probably classify myself
as a dacrophiliac now that i've learned the word
for it yeah um i do really enjoy seeing you crying
i can tell Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I never fake
cry because I like all I can to feel very, very
real. But if I'm on the edge where I could cry
or could not, and then I notice that you're maybe
taking a minute to get hard or you're maybe struggling
to finish while we're having sex, if I can cry,
I will because it works. It really does. It does.
You're right. And I think that probably ties
into a wider thing about kind of seeing you in
distress. Yeah. Is quite hot to me. But yes,
when you cry, it is always a good time. For me.
And for me. Like, I really enjoy it. If a scene
makes me cry, I consider that a very successful
scene. Yeah? Yeah, like proper, like messy, ugly
crying as well. Yeah, yeah. What do you get out
of that? Why is that such a thing for you? A
lot of kink for me, one of the things I want
to get from it is feeling very present and very
real and raw and authentic in the moment. Sorry,
I keep getting like a weird... Like I'm trying
to burp, but I don't know how to burp, so it
doesn't happen. Anyway. You don't know how to
burp? I don't know how to burp, Mix. I'm not
going to be able to cut this now, am I? You're
going to question me about it. We'll come back
to the crying question. You don't know how to
burp. I don't know how to burp, Mix. I've never
burped. I don't think that's true. I don't think
burping is something that you learn. Is it? I
don't know if it's something that you learn,
but it is definitely something you can be taught
not to do, Mix. And that was the issue. So I
would be in severe trouble when I was a small
child if I burped. Right. And I don't remember
the last time I did it, but I obviously learned
pretty quick. So now I sometimes feel like I
get like there is something going on in that
region. Right. And I don't know what to do about
it. So I just kind of panic until it goes. Right.
Because I don't know how. That's really interesting.
It's wild the shit you can condition people to
do if you abuse them badly enough. I know. That
is wild. I'm going to have to pay attention to
that now. I don't think I've ever noticed the
fact that you don't burp. Anyway, you asked me
about what I get out of crying. So I find that
there's a lot of... A lot of freedom in being
kind of really raw and present and authentic
and messy and all of that. It's stripping all
the pretense away. I often found, before I discovered
King, that I would be very focused on performing
during sex. It's like, suck your tummy in, make
sure that you're pulling the right faces, make
sure that you're making the right noises in the
sexy way. All of that stuff. And it really just
took me out of being present and enjoying it.
And some of that was because vanilla sex isn't
for me, but some of it, I think, is just that
pressure. to do it like porn. And for me, when
kink is really good, kink done right completely
strips away any of that self -consciousness.
And it's about sensation and experience and emotion.
It's not about putting on a good show. As a result
of that, when we do take pictures of it, it looks
fucking awesome. But it's a very different kind
of aesthetic. It's not about being pretty. It's
about showing something really real. So crying
is just the ultimate expression of that for me.
It's like it's got so intense that I'm having
this really strong, overwhelming physical reaction
to my emotions. I love that. And it adds to all
those other things like the jalapenos on the
nachos. If I'm also crying and pissing and throwing
up and all of this stuff's going on, it's just
all of the mess is being purged out of me. Yeah.
Feels really, really freeing. tying into the
dehumanization of it and and the humiliation
of it it's like being the worst most messy and
chaotic version of myself and being accepted
and desired because of it yeah it's very similar
to that used and useful combination that we have
yeah like i'm a mess but i'm your mess yeah you
are yeah you are yeah i mean i think it's fair
to say isn't it that that um we've been on a
bit of a journey with exploring degradation and
humiliation and have escalated quite a bit in
terms of what we do and how we do it. And a lot
of that has been driven by my comfort at any
given time. But one of the early things that
we experimented with when we started to push
at degradation and humiliation was around body
shaming. Yep. Big fave. Big fave of yours. So
yeah, talk about that. What's that about, Carizo?
Body image is something that I've really struggled
with for basically forever, Mix. I'm probably
in the best place now that I've ever been with
it, but I would still say I have the odd day
where my relationship with my body isn't what
I would quite like it to be. It's always a work
in progress. So I think a lot of what draws me
to playing with that is... that taking the power
out of it and demystifying it and making it into
a game instead of a thing that actually has the
power to ruin my life which at times it has i've
experienced both dysphoria and dysmorphia so
dysphoria is gender dysphoria specifically is
around feeling like my body is actively working
against me feeling like my true self in regards
to my gender yeah um and then dysmorphia is seeing
my body as something very distorted from reality
so looking at myself in the mirror and seeing
myself as having a lot more body fat than i actually
have or seeing my proportions as being off like
people often talk about dysmorphia is just thinking
you're fat and it's nowhere near that simple
it often for me is extended to things like physically
seeing my features actually move and warp in
the mirror where my nose will become much bigger
or my eyes will move further apart and things
like that and really seeing myself as something
grotesque And that's something that has eased
over time and removing negative influences from
my life and making sure to follow people with
diverse looks on social media has done me a lot
of good. And working on really sort of... like
one of the reasons i take a lot of pictures is
pictures don't distort as badly for me as the
mirror does so i can look at a picture of me
and i mean sometimes it me up because i'll be
like why am i so much hotter in that picture
than i am in real life and i have to remind myself
that is me that is a picture of me taken three
days ago that is what i look like calm down um
that really helps for me for creating a bit of
a sense of permanence about my appearance So
I have really enjoyed the reclamation of that
and turning it into something tangible, I think,
as well, because so much of this battle has gone
on in my head on my own for decades and suddenly
turning that into a thing that actually exists
in the physical world. And I can resist, even
if all I'm doing is sitting there crying about
it while you say terrible shit to me. At least
I'm interacting with it in reality instead of
by myself. Yeah. So I'm not alone with it anymore
in a weird way. yeah so it's an interesting one
and as we have said a few times it is just hot
it is just hot having you say absolutely unjustifiably
cruel stuff about my appearance just gets me
off sometimes which is a good time yeah and like
that's okay i know we keep saying this don't
we but it is okay for it not to be that deep
yeah you know um yeah for sure this is one that
i definitely feel is quite deep for me but it
doesn't have to be yeah and there's a lot of
aspects of this kind of play that that aren't
necessarily um but the stuff around body image
i think i started doing it just because i was
like i'll probably get off on this and it's hot
and then i found how much more it did for me
it has given me a much more stable sense of myself
like how i look yeah um and a much more neutral
view of how i look as well where it's now I look
at myself and it's not about picking out the
flaws and it's not even about picking out the
good things to try to make myself feel better.
It's just like, oh yeah, there's a human body.
Yeah. It does stuff. Cool. Which is amazing.
They say kink isn't therapy, but. Yeah, kink
isn't therapy, but. The but is an important part
of that phrase. yeah and we have to balance some
things quite carefully i think in our relationship
because we play with body shaming in play yeah
we also play with bimbofication which is very
integrated into the dynamic and involves a lot
of appearance control yeah um which i found incidentally
like i found that really helpful in similar ways
as well because if my appearance now if success
is doing what you've told me to do and doing
it consistently i stop measuring myself against
a beauty standard or against a version of me
that i think is ideal and success is now marked
by have i done all the stuff mix told me to do
and that takes a lot of pressure off yeah where
anything else really matters not that much because
if you are happy with the result of your control
yeah then i'm winning at appearance you know
i've got 100 in that awesome so that's really
helped as well But it's a very different vibe
because that's not about tearing me down. That's
about changing me. It's a different thing. And
also we have sort of connected to bimbofication,
but also connected to health and well -being.
We have elements of exercise control and very,
very light, very, very hands -off dietary control
in our relationship as well. Focused around making
sure that I'm eating healthy meals, but I'm not
overeating, that I'm getting enough exercise
to be healthy and work towards my goal of losing
a little bit of weight. yeah so that can be a
very tricky balance i think where if we're doing
a scene where you're pinching my stomach and
berating me for having fat there and then the
next day you're like okay so your food allowance
is x amount and i want you to do at least 30
minutes of walking today there is that risk there
of those becoming merged in either or both of
our heads yeah and so we have to be quite careful
about making sure those sit in the right boxes
and that none of that ever becomes sort of genuinely
destructive. Yeah. And we have spent quite a
lot of time, haven't we, talking about the different
aspects of that. And I think having control over
your diet, I think one of those areas that, again,
I kind of found really quite difficult to wrap
my head around. I have a pretty cynical view
of diets. Yeah. I think it's probably fair to
say. And me too. I've been on all of them and
they don't work. Yeah, I think that's the thing.
I've known people, I've been in relationships
with people who have kind of cycled through all
of the fad diets that there are. And I include
Slimming World and Weight Watchers in that. Oh,
absolutely. I am not a fan of either of those.
They are fad diets because the system that they
use legally has to change. Yeah. They have to
change it every three years or something ridiculous
like that so they will... Teach everybody one
system and then three years later they'll say,
oh no, now we're going to do something completely
different. If that's not a fad diet, I don't
know what is. So I've kind of had that experience
of people trying all of those diets and not succeeding
and feeling really, really shit about it. So
I'm really quite kind of cynical about diets
and structured diets in that way. And as a result
of that, kind of struggle with the idea of having
too much control over your diet. Yeah. Because
who the fuck am I to say anything? about what
what somebody should do if they want to lose
weight which is i think why we agreed the approach
we have where i know quite a lot both about all
the stupid fad diets i've tried but also generally
about nutrition for health yeah and how to do
weight loss relatively sustainably i say relatively
because the evidence is mounting up more and
more and more there is no such thing as sustainable
weight loss any method that you lose to you Any
methods that you use to lose weight, however
slowly you do it, however healthily you do it,
however carefully, if you have been heavier already,
your body will naturally draw to go back to that.
It will panic at the loss of weight and it will
be fighting you to get bigger again. That's just
biology. But weight loss that is more likely
to be sustained for a longer period of time and
easier to get back to if you do regain weight
at some point. I know quite a lot about sort
of the least harmful ways to achieve that. um
and i've been really into fitness and i've been
really into nutrition in the past and i'm now
working to find the right balance between that
but also loving to bake sourdough and loving
to cook you big meat and potato based meals.
Yes. And liking to also eat those myself and
enjoying eating cheese. I don't want to be stick
thin. I don't want to have perfect abs. I want
to have a body that complains at the knees and
hips a little bit less and can maybe run slightly
longer distances and feels healthier and yeah,
looks aesthetically more like what I personally
want. But I'm not aiming for perfection. I'm
not aiming for something that is actually not
achievable for someone of my build in my mid
-30s. You know, it's not about punishing myself
for having body fat. And so if I set what I need
to do to achieve that, all that your role is,
is you take over the authority of making sure
that I stick to it. yeah if i say this is the
balance of nutrition that i need to be eating
this is around the amount of calories that i
should be eating to get to where i want to be
this is the amount of exercise i should be doing
to ramp up my fitness again you hold me to account
which i feel is a really good balance and a more
ethical way of doing it than even if you were
qualified for you to combine dominance with being
a personal trainer feels like it would get iffy
in the same way i think we've talked about before
like trying to combine being someone's therapist
with doing kink to them you're not there to treat
a problem even if the kink ends up being therapeutic
you're also not here to be my pt yeah yeah yeah
and i wouldn't want to be but we try don't we
to keep those as separate things mostly yeah
but i think as we've started to get comfortable
with the darker elements of our dynamic we are
allowing a controlled blurring yeah But it is
a controlled and context specific and time limited
blurring. So generally play and your control
around my diet sit in two very separate boxes.
And then we will negotiate scenes that will be
a one off instance where if I've gained weight
at my way and you will verbally degrade me, for
example. Yeah. But that's not something that's
going to happen on a random Tuesday. Yeah. yeah
yeah that's that's where the line is for us and
that's something that we've worked up to over
a couple of years of playing around with these
things in complete isolation from each other
before we started yeah like okay but what if
we what if we mix them yeah what if yeah yeah
yeah i guess it's that for me it's that separation
between actually enforcing the rules and playing
at playing for me yeah And you're right, there
is a little bit of blurring of the lines, like
you said, about verbally degrading you when you
weigh yourself, as an example. But if I actually
had any concerns about your commitment to or
your achievement of meeting the rules, that would
be a separate conversation? Yeah, definitely.
I'm not going to turn around and grab a hold
of your belly and start degrading you in that
context? Yeah. yeah when you degrade me about
my body it's always in the context of i am doing
what i'm supposed to be doing in the rules and
we're having fun yeah one that i really liked
a while ago like in my in the rules uh we've
agreed like i'll track what i eat and make sure
that i'm eating the right things for the goals
i want to achieve yeah but there's certain things
that i don't track so i don't track drinks for
example i know people who are serious about their
diets will be horrified at that but I drink sugar
-free squash and one coffee a day. It's fine.
And I don't track what I call the butter tax,
which is where if I'm cooking with butter, I
will cut myself a thin slice of cold butter and
eat it like it's cheese, which Mick finds absolutely
disgusting. It's disgusting. It's delicious.
But yeah, it's completely within the rules. I
don't have to track the butter tax. The butter
tax doesn't count towards anything. The butter
tax is completely legal. But there have been
a couple of times where you've come in and seen
me eating a slab of butter and gone, well, you're
going to still be fat if you keep eating slices
of butter like that. Stop eating butter. And
I'm like, oh, and then I eat my butter and I
have a great time. Yeah. And that's the really
tricky thing with that. So, you know, we're starting
to play with a little bit of kind of unreasonable
tyranny on my part. Love a bit of unreasonable
tyranny. Where I will say things like that or
manufacture a situation where I can degrade you
or humiliate you or do something mean to you.
And it's really, really fun exploring that. But
it is really difficult to stay in that mean headspace
when you're doing a little wiggle and trying
not to smile when it's happening. Because you
really enjoy it. We wouldn't be doing it if you
didn't actually enjoy it. Yeah. And you can't
stop yourself. No, I'm so happy. I'm so proud
of you as well. And if you do something like
that, I'm like, oh, yes, they're really like
they're going for it. They're going for it. I'm
so proud. And it's really hot. And I've got a
slice of butter. Life is so good. Everything
is coming together. I think the funniest, and
I mean, you must have known this one was going
to make me giggle, was I need to give some background
here. So I have got a ladybird stuffy whose name
is Fat Fuck. And that sounds really mean. Most
of my stuffies have names that are usually like
food related or something really cutesy. Fat
Fuck is named that because of a meme where someone
had. posted one for sale on amazon and probably
it was like their draft for the listing they
called him fat fuck and then posted it without
realizing it yeah so there's a screenshot going
around if you google fat fuck ladybird i promise
you you will find it and it's great yeah um so
i have that actual ladybird and i named him fat
fuck that's his name yeah yeah and he loves it
yeah um so every time i pick him up i go oh yes
fat fuck and i'm delighted by it um it's absolutely
affectionate fat fuck yeah um but not long after
i got fat fuck we had started wanting to integrate
the body shaming play that we do more into our
day -to -day life rather than isolated scenes
um and mix came up to me when i was i think getting
dressed not wearing very much so my tummy was
out grabbed a handful of my tummy and said a
bunch of mean things to me and then was like
look at this you fat fuck and i immediately just
cracked up laughing yeah yeah And as soon as
I said it, I knew. You knew. The second the words
went, before I'd even registered that you were
chortling, I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. But
it's that kind of thing. It's exactly that kind
of thing, is that for all of the reasons that
you have just laid out, it is so hard for you
to stay in the moment. Yeah. If you get mean
enough, I do, though. You just have to get really
nasty to stop me grinning and giggling about
it. Yeah. Because I think one of the things that
I'm kind of trying to practice a little bit is
be a little bit more offhand about it. Yeah.
You know, rather than kind of making it a big
thing, like coming in and standing over you and
kind of overpowering you and grabbing a hold
of you and being really mean and stuff. It's
like trying out kind of more offhand comments
that just kind of slip in and like drift away.
But even then, I kind of look at you and you've
got that little smile in the corner of your mouth.
Like that is not the impact that I'm trying to
have here. But I don't think it's a bad thing
because some of that is about building up your
comfort with it. So it can be quite casual and
quite chill. And some of it is about the cumulative
effect of that over time. I think a lot of this
is very experimental where it's like, yeah, the
first time that you berate me for eating butter,
I'm going to grin and wiggle about it. But the
50th time you do it, I might start looking over
my shoulder before I cut a slab of butter. It's
things like that that can have that drip, drip,
drip in your brain. And also when we do scenes
where it's like full immersion, full intensity,
I do get genuinely upset. I do feel really strong
emotions. It's not like I'm losing the ability
or becoming desensitized. It's nice that this
kind of play has levels. Like when you start
talking about degradation, humiliation, emotional
sadomasochism, dark dynamics, it can all start
to sound like really edgy, gritty, nasty stuff.
And that's great. But also this kind of stuff
can be integrated into... just really silly goofy
moments as well like giggling about a ladybird
called fat fuck and yeah yeah running around
the kitchen eating my butter trying to get away
from you it's not always super serious it's still
part of the same genre of kink just yeah just
a lighter version different version of it what
about you mix what do you enjoy about body shaming
me and being a huge fat phobe i i think it's
the um i think it's the cruelty of it i i that
that Most appeals to me, it's just so personal
and so potentially so nasty. And I think we've
kind of talked about this before and said Elle
talks about it a lot. A lot of kink is about
replicating things that happen at the level of
society within a safe and ethical and consensual
framework. And that idea of absolving yourself
of the moral responsibility for being a good
person in that specific context. Yeah. And I
just think there is something about the way that
people who don't conform to our societal expectations
of what a good body is, the way that those people
are treated is so awful that to be able to kind
of do that in our very specific context, to take
that level of cruelty that people experience
and apply it in our context is just... incredibly
exciting yeah which is an awful thing to say
people it is amazing we have any listeners at
all the way that i talk about some of this stuff
sometimes um i think people want to understand
it even if they can't relate to it it's Like
it's demystifying. Like, yeah, the reality is
you are a sadist. You get off on hurting people
physically and emotionally. And what I hope we
show through this podcast is that the only time
that interests you is when you are doing it consensually
with someone who actively loves and gets off
on it themselves. Yeah. You're not just using
me as an easy option and you would be out here.
kidnapping people off the street otherwise you
want to do this with someone who likes it as
much as you do yeah and i'm really glad sadists
exist because otherwise i would not have a sex
life yeah you'd be very bored i would be masturbating
a lot yeah um so yeah i think there's that powerfulness
of it the excitement of kind of doing those things
that are just really really unacceptable societally
and and and you wouldn't dream of saying being
able to direct that at someone and have that
kind of the response that you get from it, both
in terms of the emotional distress, but also
the enjoyment I think is, I think is what I get
from it. And it just feels so personal again.
So it's that kind of intimate thing of really
poking at someone's insecurity is really, really
quite intimate in a fucked up kind of way. So
I really kind of really enjoy. really enjoy that
it's a demonstration of trust as well that that
is something that you will allow me to do yeah
i need to i think particularly for the body shaming
stuff need to feel really secure and knowing
that that's not how you see me yeah um the amount
of reassurance you've given me when i have been
struggling with body image issues in the past
um the way that that you express desire and attraction
and admiration for a lot of different body types
is really good for me as well. You have a very
broad type and it's not all stick -thin people
in their early 20s. So that's really reassuring
to me. And I think I would struggle to do this
kind of play with someone if I thought that it
was very real to them. And that's something that
varies a lot between different masochists. Like
for me... a lot of this stuff. It's not that
I want it to be completely divorced from reality,
it needs to be picking at, like, real insecurities,
real trauma, real fears, all of that stuff. But
I need there to be a sort of safety bubble around
that, of knowing that the person I'm doing it
with doesn't see me in those ways, doesn't reduce
me down to those things. And I know sometimes
people pursue this stuff because they actually
want it to feel quite real, they want to actually
hear, like, the worst thoughts that their partner
has ever had about them. and meant and that's
completely valid but that's not for me like that's
we talk about having a hard time finding my limits
i think that would be it that would be too far
for me yeah it is play it is about taking the
stuff that is very real to me and very not real
to you yeah and playing in that space where we
we blur those lines but not in a way that i ever
fully believe yeah yeah you kind of come out
of it yeah and we're back to normal Yeah. I think
for me as well, like knowing that it's fake doesn't
reduce the impact in the moment. I had a few
people ask about that when we released the episode
about our interrogation scene where you did like
the fake breakup with me partway through. Yes.
People saying like, but you knew that you weren't
actually breaking up. Yeah. Obviously, like no
even slightly sane person would end their relationship
halfway through the most intense BDSM they'd
ever done. So yeah, like I knew it was fake.
Obviously, you knew it was fake because you were
the one doing it. But it doesn't make it any
less real in the moment for me because the emotions
are real. The fear is tapping into a real. So
I knew that you weren't actually ending our relationship
then. But you were acting in a way that I can
reasonably assume you might if you were breaking
up with me. Yeah. It's not like it was completely
unbelievable. Yeah. And the emotions that you
were displaying and the things that you were
saying triggered the real emotional reaction
in me. yeah yeah it's like if you watch a sad
movie like we know that they're fake people but
you're still getting upset about them they're
not actually great yeah yeah um and the oscar
for achievement in sadism goes to sugar absolutely
it would it would you're so good at it um so
yeah it's the it's it's almost like i'm existing
in two two realities when we're in the middle
of an intense scene with any of this kind of
stuff, any kind of psychological play. There's
the reality that I know that I'm in, where you're
saying things that you don't mean, or you're
heightening things, or you are creating an atmosphere,
or role -playing to an extent. We're not necessarily
big role -players, but there's like fake elements
brought in. There's the part of me that knows
that all of that's true, but then there's the
part of me that is the character in the movie.
Yeah. So it's fake, but I'm in it. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's what I find fascinating
about this kind of play, is one of the biggest
worries I had at the start, when we started talking
about kind of using your insecurities and traumatic
experiences and things like that as part of play,
was it required me to say things that, A, I don't
believe, and B, that you just don't say to someone
that you care about. Yeah. You don't grab a hold
of someone's stomach and call them a fat fuck.
You don't write gender -based slurs all over
their body while you call them a failure of a
person. You know, you just don't do that. Yeah.
But also because it's not true. I was like, well,
why would I, would I cause myself the upset of
saying something that I don't, I and you don't
believe I believe? How is that going to work?
But actually when we started experimenting on
it. the genuineness of your responses to it kind
of took me took me a little bit by surprise and
that in itself was quite difficult to deal with
at first you know oh shit i've actually i've
actually upset them yeah um yeah that's the point
yeah do it harder yeah yeah um so it's yeah it's
it's a fascinating psychology to me that you
can kind of hold both of those things in your
head and for them both to be true in that moment
yeah you've got the confidence of knowing that
i don't actually mean it but you've got the very
visceral reaction of what is happening yeah and
they're both true we should get a psychologist
on to just investigate us oh jesus god no we
would end up in an institution no this has been
loads of fun to talk about and we've we've said
a lot of stuff yes we have So I'm just going
to repeat the recommendation to, if this is a
kind of thing that you want to explore, or if
you just want to hear more from someone who does
a lot of emotional masochism, check out Vahavta,
who I'm going to link in the description. Meg's
also mentioned Ancilla L, who we've mentioned
on the podcast before, another really good resource
for this kind of stuff. And just to bear in mind
as well, if you came into this being like, oh,
I want to learn a little bit about light, degradation,
humiliation, and then you've come into... just
the most deranged shit you've ever heard in your
life this is not the level you have to play at
this is the level we play at because this is
what we like there's a lot of ways that this
can be done in a little bit more of a light -hearted
playful way and hopefully some of the stuff we
talked about about that side of our relationship
has been more useful yes and i think we kind
of really think through no matter which end that
you want to aim for kind of really think it through
yeah this stuff can hit harder than you expect
even if you think that you're starting at a light
end like playing with feelings is a lot less
predictable than playing with bodies yeah which
is a really good way to end the episode it is
isn't it very wise of me yes thanks everyone
for listening bye See you next time.