WEBVTT

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Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast

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where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,

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a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who

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likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And

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I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver

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all of the above. And today we're going to be

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talking about degradation and humiliation. Oh,

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you'd like that, wouldn't you? You'd enjoy that,

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wouldn't you, you little pervert? Yeah, mix.

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That was so easy. I know. I know. It is not difficult.

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No. I am a little turned on by that. Such a simple

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creature. I know. Oh, well, get yourself together.

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We have a podcast to record. I know. We are podcasting

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professionals. Podcasting, serious podcasting

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people. So I thought to start off, we should

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probably talk about what degradation and humiliation

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actually are. always a good place to start yes

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and i'm glad that this is your section because

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it's actually quite hard it is i had to google

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it to make sure i was getting this right because

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i i was right it turned out when i googled it

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but they are words that we tend to use a little

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bit interchangeably i just sort of flip backwards

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and forwards between them and just go on vibes

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yeah that's That seems perfectly sensible. Yeah.

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I mean, like we're going to explain what they

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are and what the difference between them is,

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just so people are clear why there's two words

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for essentially a very similar topic. But language

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is only as useful as you want it to be. Like

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if you just call it all degradation because that

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makes sense in your brain, I think that's fine.

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Yeah, I think so. So what we're basically saying

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is that as we go through this podcast and we

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change our own internal definitions of degradation

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and humiliation, depending on what we're talking

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about. In fact, we meant to do that. Of course,

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yes. To illustrate the point. Very deliberate.

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We're doing it as critique of the prescriptive

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nature of language mix. Yes. So degradation first.

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Degradation is about creating feelings of being

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lesser in some way. So triggering feelings of

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worthlessness, uselessness, feeling objectified.

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So less than human being reduced to the status

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of an object. So that could include, for example,

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things like a human ashtray, which is a favorite

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of mine or human furniture in general, but also

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being treated like an animal. in a distinct way

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from pet play i think there's a difference between

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playing as an animal and being treated like an

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animal and it's yeah being treated like an animal

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tends to come into degradation though the line

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is definitely blurry there yeah you got that

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kind of Like cows and pigs seem to be quite a

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popular genre of that kind of degradation. Yeah,

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though those can also be people's personas for

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pet play as well. This is where it gets really

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complicated. But yeah, I'm definitely a pig more

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in the sense of it's degrading to be a pig than

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I want you to treat me like your pet pig and...

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Yes. Fuss me. Yes. Fuss you. Fuss you like a

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pig. Yes, I would fuss a pig. you have fussed

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a pig i have fussed a pig several pigs yeah i

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love to fuss pigs it's great that we're talking

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about how cows and pigs are examples of how like

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animal like qualities can be a form of degradation

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and i am a person who you regularly call pig

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and i'm sitting here right now wearing a fluffy

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cow print tracksuit yes really like going for

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the right vibe here and it is a very cute tracksuit

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as well it is i might say absolute stellar find

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on um tell me yeah by the time this episode comes

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out people are going to be sick of seeing it

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on tiktok because it's all i'm going to be wearing

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yeah true anyway some other examples of degradation

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would also be being treated like a sex toy and

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verbal degradation to meet any of those kind

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of needs so yeah language and insults and sort

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of call and response kind of questioning designed

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to bring up those feelings of being lesser yes

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that's really good really clear definition yeah

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i googled it Yeah. So then degradation. No. No.

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You've just done degradation. We've started already.

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So then humiliation is about triggering feelings

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of shame or a little bit less common, but also

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embarrassment would definitely fall under humiliation.

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Yeah. That's not one you see quite as often,

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but it's definitely very much some people's thing.

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Wanting that sort of feeling of like, you know,

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when you have that dream that you're in school

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and the teacher asks you a question, you realize

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you've got no pants on. Yeah. Some people are

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really trying to capture that in their king.

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And that would be humiliation. That would be

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humiliation, yes. But also things like insults

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to appearance, bringing up insecurities, potentially

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playing with trauma can fall under this, bringing

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up past behaviours, so things that you're ashamed

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of that you've done in the past, being laughed

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at or being publicly humiliated, so things like

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going out wearing unflattering clothing and public

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scenes designed to trigger shame. Obviously,

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we would always hope that if people are doing

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that, they're doing it in an ethical way. So

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when I say public, I mean at a kink event where

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people are on board with some public humiliation.

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getting on not in Tesco's no let's not do that

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there's definitely a lot of overlap between these

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two even aside from people being unsure about

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the exact boundary between them like there's

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a lot of things that you can do during play that

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could tap into both of these so a verbal degradation

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scene is often degradation and humiliation you

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will often say things to me that treat me as

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something lesser make me feel sort of small and

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worthless and useless and all of that while also

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looking for things that will trigger a shame

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response because shame is super hot to me yes

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it is you definitely enjoy both sides of that

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coin very much yes don't you yeah um and i think

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that's probably for me that's the that's the

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thing with the with the two sides of it they

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are two sides of a coin yeah especially when

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it comes to language it can be quite hard to

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differentiate between what is degrading and what

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is humiliating yeah um and i think to be fair

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a lot of it is in how it is received rather than

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how it is given definitely when you know a partner

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well or you've negotiated well for a scene you

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have a fair amount of fine control over the emotions

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that you trigger in a person but that's never

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an exact science things can hit very differently

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one day to the next or with a very slight change

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in wording you're going to get a different response

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and this stuff is part of a much broader category

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of emotional sadomasochism so that would include

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things like fear play in there as well for example

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so where you're playing with any of those strong

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emotions that are commonly seen as negative or

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difficult or challenging. And yes, you can sort

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of box those into little categories, go this

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is about fear and this is about shame and this

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is about feeling less than. But actually all

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of those lines are going to be really blurry

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and a lot of the time the feeling is going to

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be quite hard to identify and might be crossing

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over between all of those and several others

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as well. Yeah, because I don't think I ever,

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I don't think I consciously set out to either

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degrade or to humiliate you. I kind of... I just

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mean to you. Yeah. I suppose that's not strictly

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true. It depends what we're doing. Yeah. So there's

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a lot of what we do, which is around objectification.

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Like the bimbofication thing that we do is all

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about objectifying you, about reducing you to

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a plastic sex doll that I play with and dress

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up and do whatever I want to. Yeah. There's an

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element of degradation to that because you are

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being treated as something that is less than

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human. You are reduced to a pretty set of holes.

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Yes, mix. Kind of thing. There you go again.

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A little smile, a little wiggle on the sofa.

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Oh, yes. But we don't do that in a humiliating

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way in order to make you feel shame about that.

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I would say that our general bimbofication as

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part of our dynamic has never included humiliation,

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but we have definitely included humiliation in

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play that is based around the bimbofication mix.

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So things like scenes we've done where you've

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had me watching bimbo porn and been pointing

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out to me all the ways that I am not as good

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as the bimbos in the porn. Saying, look at her

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tits, look at her lips, you'll never be as hot

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as this, stuff like that. I would say that starts

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to then move more into humiliation. right but

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with the degradation aspect of me also being

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dehumanized by the process of you sort of reshaping

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me in that way yeah see it's not easy is it it's

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not mixed but it's fun to think about and it's

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interesting and i feel like this is going to

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be one of those episodes that even though we

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kind of already know what we're going to say

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going into it just having this conversation for

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a couple of hours we're going to have a much

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deeper understanding of these kinks which is

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always fun yes possibly Oh, we'll get to the

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end of it. Christ, whose idea was this one? Jesus

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Christ, my head hurts. Well, it was my idea.

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So if you are really frustrated and find the

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subject matter difficult, Mix, you know who to

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take it out on. Take it out on you. Call you

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stupid for having such a bad idea for an episode.

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Yeah, Mix. All of that kind of stuff. I think

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it's going to be a cracking one. I think everyone's

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going to enjoy this one. Good. I hope so. For

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your sake. So how about you start us off with

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a little bit about what you get out of degradation

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and humiliation mix? Because it was interesting

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you said you don't necessarily always set out

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with a specific emotional reaction in mind. I

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don't think it's that I don't set out with a

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particular emotional response in mind. I guess

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what I meant was I don't necessarily separate

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the two in my head. And I think it is a really

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blurry line between what is just degradation

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and what is just humiliation and what is a combination

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of the two. I think it's a really movable thing

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depending on the context and the scene and what

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the plan is. Which makes it really difficult

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to talk about because it's like, how do you separate

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the two? I think a lot of what I get out of it,

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which is a really interesting thing to think

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about given... where we started with some of

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this stuff i think what i get out of it is that

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permission to just be an arsehole and to to kind

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of to have that permission to say say and do

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things that you just don't do or say to another

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person i think there's an element of that for

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me as well because especially when we're thinking

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about your life experiences which have not all

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been great um kind of there's something there

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about using those for play purposes or to exploit

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them for play or sexual purposes which is really

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really quite powerful and and and quite exciting

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really difficult to get your head around at first

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and it was really difficult to get my head around

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it at first um because you have that kind of

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moral battle in your head about just because

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you can doesn't mean you should um so i think

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that's a yeah there's an element of that to it

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and i think the way that we do it especially

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around behavioural language, which is specifically

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more on the degrading side of things. Like it's

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just hot. Like it is one of those things that

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for me, there's not necessarily a really kind

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of deep and meaningful thing to it. It's just

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really hot. Yeah, I agree. I think like we always

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try to go really deep and really analyse what's

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going on. But ultimately, the reason we do any

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of this stuff is because we like it. That's a

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really simple answer. And sometimes it is at

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least on the level we're consciously aware of

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that is about as deep as it gets. It's just this

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turns me on. This turns you on. Let's do it.

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Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But I think it's one

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of those things which is often tied to other

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parts of our kink and our dynamic and the things

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that I enjoy. So we have free use as part of

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our dynamic. And there are different ways you

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could go about doing that. So just because I

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can initiate sex whenever I want. doesn't mean

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that I have to do it in a particular way. It

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could be, and you would hate this, which is always

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a fun thing to think about, but it could be really

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quiet missionary on a Tuesday night. Oh no. All

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the time. And that would be okay. Yeah. From

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my perspective, from the concept of free use,

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but what we layer on top of that is, I'm just

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going to treat you like a flashlight and just

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fuck you however, wherever, whenever I want to.

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For the sole purpose of getting myself off. Yeah.

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I particularly like sometimes when you do that,

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you'll walk into the room. Usually it's if I'm

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still in bed and you've already got up or if

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I've like had a nap or if I'm like restful and

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peaceful and having a nice time. Yeah. You'll

00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:39.889
walk into the room and say, get on your back

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or bend over. I need to masturbate. And that's

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so dehumanizing. Like you're not even acknowledging

00:12:44.629 --> 00:12:47.730
it as sex. It's just masturbation using me. And

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that's. yeah that is really hot yeah so i think

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that's the that's the that it's like the um i've

00:12:55.179 --> 00:12:57.200
suddenly forgotten all food i'm trying to think

00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.879
of a really good food analogy what you can what

00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:02.340
we're doing there is kind of layering degradation

00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:06.200
on top on top of something else yeah so the being

00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.860
able to have sex whenever i want is is the main

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:12.700
thing that is in a dehumanizing degrading objectifying

00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:17.309
kind of way So that layer of degradation, it's

00:13:17.309 --> 00:13:21.549
like jalapenos on top of nachos. Not strictly

00:13:21.549 --> 00:13:23.669
necessary, but makes it a better experience.

00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:26.690
Yeah. You know? I agree with that. That was a

00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:29.230
good one. It was. And they're spicy. And they're

00:13:29.230 --> 00:13:34.470
spicy. There you go. So I think degradation particularly

00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:36.690
is a really good way of kind of enhancing the

00:13:36.690 --> 00:13:39.269
things that we do already. Yeah. And I guess

00:13:39.269 --> 00:13:42.500
humiliation would be as well. And you think about

00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:44.659
most of the time when we're doing kind of like

00:13:44.659 --> 00:13:47.200
an impact scene, I'm not being particularly kind

00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:51.059
of verbally mean to you. Yeah, you're often really

00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:53.779
nice during impact. Yeah. Giving me lots of praise

00:13:53.779 --> 00:13:55.919
and lots of head pettings and things like that.

00:13:55.940 --> 00:13:57.759
Yeah, telling you you're doing a good job. But

00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.580
every now and again, I will berate you for shuffling

00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:02.519
about and trying to get away and hootling and

00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:04.840
shrieking and all of the rest of it and kind

00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.159
of say things like, I'm hardly hitting you. Yeah.

00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:10.590
What are you doing? Stop being so useless kind

00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:14.990
of thing. and I think that kind of moves more

00:14:14.990 --> 00:14:17.330
into humiliation I think to make you feel a little

00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:19.230
bit embarrassed about the fact that the way that

00:14:19.230 --> 00:14:21.470
you are reacting yeah definitely because it does

00:14:21.470 --> 00:14:26.029
it does like I always even though I know from

00:14:26.029 --> 00:14:28.049
how other people have reacted to seeing me play

00:14:28.049 --> 00:14:30.889
like I've got a pretty high pain threshold and

00:14:30.889 --> 00:14:33.429
I can take a pretty good beating but every time

00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:35.809
we're doing impact it always feels like it's

00:14:35.809 --> 00:14:38.830
not hard enough for how I'm reacting to it I

00:14:38.830 --> 00:14:40.710
always feel like I'm being a little bit of a

00:14:40.710 --> 00:14:43.690
wuss. So if you start telling me I am, it's like

00:14:43.690 --> 00:14:45.509
my worst fears are coming true. It's like, no,

00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:50.970
no. Yeah. I mean, that's not something that we

00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:52.850
do very often. Because like you say, when we're

00:14:52.850 --> 00:14:55.250
doing an impact scene, it is like for what is

00:14:55.250 --> 00:14:58.009
occurring, generally actually quite chill. Yeah.

00:14:59.409 --> 00:15:01.509
Psychologically chill. Psychologically chill.

00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:11.149
Yeah. I think. No, you don't. No, I don't. I

00:15:11.149 --> 00:15:13.370
very rarely think. See, this is the thing, because

00:15:13.370 --> 00:15:15.450
you sent this three ages ago, I thought about

00:15:15.450 --> 00:15:17.570
it at the time and now it's all gone out of my

00:15:17.570 --> 00:15:21.350
head. You complain if I send you the outline

00:15:21.350 --> 00:15:23.070
too far in advance because you've forgotten it

00:15:23.070 --> 00:15:24.649
and you complain if I send it you five minutes

00:15:24.649 --> 00:15:26.129
before because you haven't had time to think.

00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.470
Maybe this is a skill issue. Yeah, it is a skill

00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:31.149
issue. You need to find the right time to send

00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:34.500
it to me. you need to do better i think one of

00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:36.139
the other things which has been really interesting

00:15:36.139 --> 00:15:39.059
in how we've approached degradation and humiliation

00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:41.600
compared to how i've done it in the past i think

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:43.539
it's probably fair to say that with with previous

00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:45.860
partners i think the focus has probably been

00:15:45.860 --> 00:15:49.360
more on degradation than it has been on over

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:54.039
humiliation yeah and pretty light degradation

00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.860
at that you know you know kind of a little bit

00:15:57.860 --> 00:16:01.019
objectifying calling someone a slut and a whore

00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:05.230
and stuff like that And not really much beyond

00:16:05.230 --> 00:16:07.970
that, really. It's so interesting, and this is

00:16:07.970 --> 00:16:09.990
not a criticism of you, because this is definitely

00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:12.889
something that is very widespread, that we think

00:16:12.889 --> 00:16:15.269
of that as light degradation, but those are slurs.

00:16:15.789 --> 00:16:17.870
And if it was slurs against any other group,

00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:20.750
that's the heavy shit. Yeah. Like what I've done

00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:23.509
quite a lot of transphobia play with people saying,

00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:25.629
including you, saying horrific things about my

00:16:25.629 --> 00:16:27.710
gender identity and my transition and things.

00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:30.309
And that is considered quite extreme and quite

00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:33.600
controversial. Yeah. But we don't think of misogyny

00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.460
in the same terms. And like I said, this isn't

00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:38.700
a criticism of you because a lot of sort of kinky,

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.080
submissive women who want to start dipping their

00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:42.679
toe in degradation, those are the things they'll

00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:44.940
suggest. It's like, don't get too personal, but

00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:47.500
you can call me a slut. And it's like, we should

00:16:47.500 --> 00:16:49.179
unpack that a little bit. We probably should

00:16:49.179 --> 00:16:52.679
unpack that. And I think what I meant was comparatively.

00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:56.320
Yes. Compared to some of the things that we do,

00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:58.179
notwithstanding that everything you have just

00:16:58.179 --> 00:17:01.250
said is right. It is relatively light. It is

00:17:01.250 --> 00:17:03.509
at the less extreme end of the whole continuum

00:17:03.509 --> 00:17:05.769
of what could be degrading behaviour and language.

00:17:06.009 --> 00:17:08.750
Yeah. Because whether it is the right thing or

00:17:08.750 --> 00:17:11.970
not, it is generally accepted within a safe and

00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:15.170
consensual space. Yeah. Not everybody, but if

00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:16.789
you're going to be comfortable with degrading

00:17:16.789 --> 00:17:19.069
words as a female submissive or a female presenting

00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:20.650
submissive, slut and whore are probably going

00:17:20.650 --> 00:17:22.829
to be the words. Yeah, it's definitely very,

00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:25.170
very common. It's just, it's always an interesting

00:17:25.170 --> 00:17:26.849
thing and it risks becoming a huge diversion

00:17:26.849 --> 00:17:30.779
how misogyny kink. is sort of so mainstream and

00:17:30.779 --> 00:17:33.519
seen as often quite tame yeah where any of the

00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:36.740
other kinks that play with gender identity that

00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:39.200
play with race that play with body type that

00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.319
play with disability yeah suddenly are a lot

00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.880
more niche and a lot more of a sticky area um

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.019
and i definitely i i love a bit of misogyny kink

00:17:48.019 --> 00:17:50.099
you know in a consensual environment with someone

00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:52.119
that i trust and know isn't an actual misogynist

00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:56.180
it's great um but i think it makes it sometimes

00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:59.960
hard to navigate as a kink community the difference

00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:02.859
between misogyny kink and masked misogyny within

00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:04.900
the community because it's because it's so rife

00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:06.359
you have to get really good at reading between

00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:08.460
the lines to tell whether someone's approaching

00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:11.099
it in a good way or not so yeah that's a diversion

00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:14.299
for another time yeah no i think it's a really

00:18:14.299 --> 00:18:16.059
interesting thing to think about with this with

00:18:16.059 --> 00:18:18.160
this topic because you're absolutely right it's

00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:24.359
with any kind of degrading language um You have

00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.960
to be really careful about thinking, particularly

00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.720
from the giver's perspective, what's actually

00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.440
going on there. It's like you say, there's a

00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.599
difference between play that imitates misogyny

00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:39.660
and just misogyny. Yeah. In the same way that

00:18:39.660 --> 00:18:42.079
play that imitates transphobia versus actual

00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.859
transphobic views. Yeah. Two very different things.

00:18:46.059 --> 00:18:54.240
Yeah. But about 40 minutes ago. Don't, because

00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:56.259
people will ask me for the cut 40 minutes and

00:18:56.259 --> 00:18:59.279
it has not been that long. No, you're right.

00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:09.619
It's been 72. So my experience of using degrading

00:19:09.619 --> 00:19:11.160
language and being degrading towards someone

00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.640
is very much in that mainstream idea of what

00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:20.259
it is. Yeah. And then I met you and... with my

00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:23.440
permission and consent you basically trauma dumped

00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:30.000
on me yeah um and you didn't do that in a pushy

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.500
way you didn't do that in a way that was about

00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:35.660
eliciting sympathy or anything like that you

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:39.099
know it was was here is a bunch of stuff that

00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:41.019
you could weaponize and use against me for sex

00:19:41.019 --> 00:19:45.859
reasons yeah um and i was a little bit blown

00:19:45.859 --> 00:19:48.559
away by that because that was a lot of information

00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.480
to receive in one go. But it was also really,

00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:53.140
really intimate. And I think there's something

00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:55.140
about that for me as well with the way that we

00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.680
do degradation and humiliation, as well as layering

00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:00.539
it on top of other things. It really, it kind

00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:03.839
of shows me who you are. I agree. I think it's

00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.640
one of the more intimate kinks because to hit

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:08.740
someone well, you need to understand anatomy.

00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:11.119
To hurt someone emotionally, you need to understand

00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.339
the anatomy of that person's mind very specifically.

00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:16.420
Like, yeah, there's things you can say that are

00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:19.059
going to, be somewhat offensive or hurtful to

00:20:19.059 --> 00:20:22.400
pretty much anybody yeah but to do it well you

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.079
need the detail yeah and it's a really big trust

00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.799
exercise as well where negotiating that as you

00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:31.059
say it does involve giving you the weapons whether

00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:33.980
that is telling you about past trauma or deeply

00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:36.319
held insecurities or anything along those lines

00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.240
like if you're going to start doing this in a

00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.880
way that's more effective than just you know

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.140
spit in my mouth and call me a slut You have

00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:46.759
to start getting really specific. It's a great

00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:52.500
second date activity. And spitting in your mouth

00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.779
and calling you a slut is fun. We do that. Yeah,

00:20:55.819 --> 00:20:58.259
always a good time. Everyone's having fun there.

00:21:01.180 --> 00:21:03.119
But I think, yeah, there's something really quite

00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.380
powerful, really quite intimate about knowing

00:21:05.380 --> 00:21:09.599
the things about you that will cause a negative

00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:12.160
emotional response and using that against you.

00:21:12.569 --> 00:21:14.829
yeah there's something really quite like almost

00:21:14.829 --> 00:21:17.569
intoxicating about that experience of knowing

00:21:17.569 --> 00:21:20.170
that stuff about you is in itself an intimate

00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:23.269
thing and and demonstrates a level of trust for

00:21:23.269 --> 00:21:26.089
being able to kind of weaponize that in that

00:21:26.089 --> 00:21:30.490
way and and and produce a sobbing wreck of a

00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:32.490
human person on the on the floor in front of

00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:36.150
me is yeah really quite powerful yeah which if

00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:37.670
you think about the journey that we've been on

00:21:37.670 --> 00:21:42.250
with that stuff is quite remarkable, given where

00:21:42.250 --> 00:21:44.589
we started. Yeah, because I know you found this

00:21:44.589 --> 00:21:47.990
quite scary. Yeah. And you didn't know if you'd

00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:49.589
be good at it. You didn't know if you'd be comfortable

00:21:49.589 --> 00:21:51.390
with it. And there were definitely times where

00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:53.630
I never pushed you to go faster than you were

00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:55.569
comfortable with. But I think you pushed yourself

00:21:55.569 --> 00:21:57.750
at times because you were keen and you did find

00:21:57.750 --> 00:21:59.750
it hot. And I think there was maybe an element

00:21:59.750 --> 00:22:02.109
of wanting to sort of keep up with me because

00:22:02.109 --> 00:22:05.009
you knew I was used to a lot of that. And there

00:22:05.009 --> 00:22:06.230
were times where you definitely pushed yourself

00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:09.670
a bit too far. just crashed into a wall at full

00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:12.390
speed and we needed to rebuild you before we

00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:14.950
could approach it again yeah but you've come

00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:17.549
a long way you're very good at this stuff now

00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:24.390
thanks i am i'm a bastard i'm really good at

00:22:24.390 --> 00:22:30.490
being a bastard he's an evil evil person he's

00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:33.299
in my nature but what about you What do you get

00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:36.940
from being degraded and humiliated? I think you've

00:22:36.940 --> 00:22:38.759
definitely touched on some of the answers for

00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:40.900
me as well, Mix. The intimacy of it is a big

00:22:40.900 --> 00:22:45.140
one. You know, this is usually your go -to answer,

00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.400
but the power of it for you, the way that you

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:50.920
have that power to kind of tug on my emotions

00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.960
and control my responses in that way. A lot of

00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:55.920
it for me, you know, usual disclaimer, kink is

00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:59.019
not therapy, but I have found a lot of healing

00:22:59.019 --> 00:23:01.460
through it. And I wouldn't suggest that people

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:04.299
set out with the goal of using this as a fix

00:23:04.299 --> 00:23:06.799
for any mental health issues. But as a side effect

00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.339
of enjoying it and finding it hot, I found that

00:23:09.339 --> 00:23:11.720
it has increased my confidence a lot. It's helped

00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:13.559
me to kind of process and work through a lot

00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.200
of things that are difficult to look at on my

00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:17.920
own. But getting them out to play with with a

00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.920
partner feels like a much safer environment for

00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:23.480
that. It takes a lot of power out of things for

00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:25.339
me where some of the worst things that I think

00:23:25.339 --> 00:23:27.500
about myself and things that have really hit

00:23:27.500 --> 00:23:29.359
me hard when other people have said them to me

00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.119
or said them about me. When I get those out with

00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:35.480
someone that I trust and allow them to say those

00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.720
things and reenact some of that stuff and heighten

00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.200
some of that stuff and make it even worse. And

00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.180
then afterwards we have a cuddle and we order

00:23:43.180 --> 00:23:45.940
a pizza and everything's chill. It makes me realize

00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:48.119
like those things don't have that much weight.

00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:51.240
it takes them out of being something real and

00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:53.200
into a toy that we play with and that is something

00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:55.940
that does a lot for me um and it's hot it's hot

00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:58.359
i don't know exactly probably a combination of

00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.119
all those things and several others as well but

00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.640
something about being particularly like verbally

00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.559
insulted and being objectified are kind of two

00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:08.619
of my really big things that just really get

00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:12.210
me going yeah a lot of your kink seems to centre

00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:14.930
around being used and being useful. Yeah, that

00:24:14.930 --> 00:24:17.829
sums it up really well. So that ties into, obviously,

00:24:17.970 --> 00:24:20.410
service. It ties into the bimbofication we do.

00:24:20.490 --> 00:24:23.789
It ties into free use. It ties into all forms

00:24:23.789 --> 00:24:26.829
of consensual non -consent play. It ties into

00:24:26.829 --> 00:24:30.970
human ashtray. There's this big spider web of

00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:33.349
objectification just all the way through so many

00:24:33.349 --> 00:24:37.630
of my favourite kinks. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah.

00:24:41.289 --> 00:24:44.009
We've mentioned how that sits under the broader

00:24:44.009 --> 00:24:48.069
emotional sadomasochism umbrella. Yep. Which

00:24:48.069 --> 00:24:50.190
is a really big topic and probably about seven

00:24:50.190 --> 00:24:52.970
episodes in their own right to properly do that

00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:56.650
justice. How did that come about for you? How

00:24:56.650 --> 00:25:00.230
did you discover that side of your kink? Yeah,

00:25:00.250 --> 00:25:01.869
because I can talk about that definitely all

00:25:01.869 --> 00:25:05.690
day, probably. I think, as you touched on, emotional

00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:07.970
sadomasochism is so much more of a broad topic.

00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:09.849
And I think that was definitely the first thing.

00:25:10.170 --> 00:25:12.829
The emotional masochism was the first thing that

00:25:12.829 --> 00:25:15.369
I identified, but I didn't really know what to

00:25:15.369 --> 00:25:18.289
do with that. And that was a very toxic situationship

00:25:18.289 --> 00:25:20.309
I had before I started consciously exploring

00:25:20.309 --> 00:25:22.950
kink, where someone was essentially head -fucking

00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:26.420
me. Not in a consensual and negotiated way. Yeah,

00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.039
yeah. Things like, you know, getting upset with

00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.680
me because I had too much to drink on a date

00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:32.759
and I was a bit of a mess. And so I would say,

00:25:32.779 --> 00:25:34.599
fine, I'll drink less next time we go out. And

00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:36.140
then we would go out and he would be buying me

00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:38.319
drinks every five minutes and then attacking

00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:40.859
me for being a mess. That sort of mind games.

00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.839
And it was awful. And it ended, luckily. But

00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.150
I realised... Yeah, that wasn't me. No. Though

00:25:48.150 --> 00:25:49.690
we could play with some stuff like that. Yeah,

00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:51.930
yeah, yeah. She's given me an idea. But it did

00:25:51.930 --> 00:25:54.670
make me realise there is something for me where...

00:25:55.180 --> 00:25:57.640
I get off on that. And I didn't want to explore

00:25:57.640 --> 00:25:59.880
it in that way. But it made me realise there

00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:02.000
was something about having a partner who could

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:03.880
make me sob on the floor was something that was

00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.240
essential to me in a relationship. To feel desire

00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:09.240
and to feel desired and to feel close. And I

00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.700
was like, well, that's fucked up and I don't

00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:12.799
know what to do with that. So maybe I'll ask

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:14.819
people to just like hit me and pull my hair and

00:26:14.819 --> 00:26:16.279
spit in my mouth and that will meet the same

00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:18.039
need and we don't have to examine that too closely.

00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:22.369
So that's what I set out to do. And I... There

00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:23.750
was someone that at the time I'd been friends

00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:25.289
with for a few years who I knew was involved

00:26:25.289 --> 00:26:27.470
in the kink community and I asked if that person

00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:30.269
wanted to hook up and just kind of give me a

00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:33.250
trial session of kink, essentially. And I didn't

00:26:33.250 --> 00:26:35.680
know a lot about kink. And so my suggestions

00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.240
were like, just hit me with some stuff. And then

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:40.160
because they had more experience, they sort of

00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:41.559
rattled off a whole list of things and was like,

00:26:41.619 --> 00:26:44.000
is any of this interesting to you? Tell me some

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:45.680
things that you think are limits for you, at

00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.180
least for now. Tell me some things that you're

00:26:47.180 --> 00:26:49.279
curious about, want to try. Tell me which of

00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:50.759
these things you are unsure about. Really good

00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:52.500
approach to it. Really good sort of starting

00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:55.279
point into kink, I think. But one of the things

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.859
on that very long list was verbal degradation.

00:26:58.579 --> 00:27:00.900
And I was like, oh, is that what it sounds like?

00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:03.440
And they were like, yeah, like calling your names

00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.480
and being a bit mean. And I was like, yeah, no,

00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:07.799
I want to give that a go. So I can't remember

00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:09.740
the specifics of what they said in that first

00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:11.799
hookup, but I'm pretty sure it was things like

00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.180
calling me a slut and a bitch and, you know,

00:27:14.180 --> 00:27:15.960
the stuff that you think of as entry level until

00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:17.559
you think about it for five minutes and go, hmm.

00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.500
But I liked it. and i wanted more of it and i

00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.519
immediately started doing some googling and some

00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:26.640
searching around on fat life and i was like okay

00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.359
this verbal degradation stuff can get pretty

00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:30.059
interesting so i was texting them and be like

00:27:30.059 --> 00:27:34.500
how about like commenting on my body yeah and

00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:37.900
and my weight and they were like ah and i was

00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:40.319
like and how about bringing up the fact that

00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.339
i was abused when i was a kid and they were like

00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:47.859
ah i was like how about attacking my gender identity

00:27:47.859 --> 00:27:50.839
and degrading me because i'm non -binary and

00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:55.619
they were like um and then they were like yeah

00:27:55.619 --> 00:28:00.480
fuck it and i'll do all of that and and we also

00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.059
was not me no it is a similar similar pipeline

00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:09.650
yeah Yeah, so we tried quite a bit. And there

00:28:09.650 --> 00:28:11.930
were areas of that that they found quite comfortable

00:28:11.930 --> 00:28:13.549
and found their feet with and were able to do.

00:28:13.589 --> 00:28:15.029
And there were areas of that that were not so

00:28:15.029 --> 00:28:19.210
much within their comfort zone. A pattern that

00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:21.109
started with that relationship and has continued

00:28:21.109 --> 00:28:24.289
throughout my... my kink experiences is that

00:28:24.289 --> 00:28:26.789
my limits with psychological play in general

00:28:26.789 --> 00:28:29.569
are really far out and hard to hit and i tend

00:28:29.569 --> 00:28:32.430
to run smack bang into dom's limits on this stuff

00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:35.130
well before mine which is fine i think that's

00:28:35.130 --> 00:28:36.930
probably quite good to keep me in check sometimes

00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:39.789
and also everyone it's really valid to have limits

00:28:39.789 --> 00:28:41.210
and i think a lot of this stuff is harder for

00:28:41.210 --> 00:28:42.470
the top than it is for the bottom a lot of the

00:28:42.470 --> 00:28:45.190
time yep it's you have to hear yourself saying

00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:47.269
some really awful shit like i know i'm getting

00:28:47.269 --> 00:28:49.150
off on it in the moment you don't necessarily

00:28:49.150 --> 00:28:52.380
i think that's harder But yeah, they were up

00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:56.420
for a lot and we did quite a lot. So we started

00:28:56.420 --> 00:28:58.940
playing around with things like bringing up my

00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:00.980
past as a sex worker, which isn't something I

00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:03.640
consider shameful. But I had some really difficult

00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:05.940
times during that period of my life being shamed

00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:08.680
by other people and going through traumatic experiences.

00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:11.339
And it's not hard to tap into those feelings.

00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:14.119
It's not about me thinking like, oh God, I'm

00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:15.779
so ashamed that I had sex for money because I'm

00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:18.289
not and I never have been. But I experienced

00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:21.650
some really pervasive shame because of the way

00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:23.650
that the world responds to sex workers. Then

00:29:23.650 --> 00:29:25.849
that continued after that relationship ended

00:29:25.849 --> 00:29:28.819
and I had my relationship with Hope. who obviously

00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:30.980
has been on the podcast before go check out her

00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:33.740
episodes they are fantastic yes um but yeah my

00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:35.940
relationship with hope for two years she had

00:29:35.940 --> 00:29:38.779
a lot of previous experience of doing emotional

00:29:38.779 --> 00:29:41.700
sadomasochism heavy verbal degradation humiliation

00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:45.559
um a lot of fear play psychological play in general

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:47.920
like she she really knew her shit with this stuff

00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:50.380
so because i already knew enough to know i wanted

00:29:50.380 --> 00:29:52.339
more we really hit the ground running with that

00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:56.019
We really, we like the head fucky, messed up,

00:29:56.059 --> 00:29:59.299
dark, gritty side of kink. Yeah. But even with

00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:01.240
her, we definitely did run into her limits sometimes.

00:30:02.009 --> 00:30:04.470
A big one for me that I always wanted to try

00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:07.609
was having scenes where someone was telling me

00:30:07.609 --> 00:30:10.470
that I was unlovable or like mocking me for thinking

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:12.109
that they could be in love with me. Like having

00:30:12.109 --> 00:30:13.630
a loving relationship with someone and having

00:30:13.630 --> 00:30:16.789
them say that stuff. Super hot to me. That first

00:30:16.789 --> 00:30:18.970
partner could not do that. Hope could not do

00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:21.549
that. And you took a long time to be able to

00:30:21.549 --> 00:30:23.109
do that. And I think that's still your hardest

00:30:23.109 --> 00:30:26.569
one. Yeah, definitely is. Yeah. Definitely is.

00:30:27.869 --> 00:30:30.609
I think that is fundamentally different from

00:30:30.609 --> 00:30:33.569
some of the other things. Because I think, in

00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:36.250
my head anyway, almost all of the things that

00:30:36.250 --> 00:30:39.029
we do around degradation and humiliation are

00:30:39.029 --> 00:30:44.390
about you. I am critiquing your body, your experiences.

00:30:44.529 --> 00:30:48.589
I am directing slurs at you. When you get into

00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.079
talking about... You being unlovable and you

00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.240
being foolish for thinking that this is anything

00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.440
other than a transactional relationship, which

00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.319
are things that I have said to you. That's about

00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:01.640
me. Yeah. And that sounds really, really selfish.

00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:06.359
But it hits different. Yeah. Well, you're not

00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.220
an emotional masochist. So saying something that

00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.740
hurts your own feelings is always going to be

00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:14.460
a bit tricky. Yeah. And I think it also kind

00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:16.980
of strays into an area where it is potentially

00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.559
harder for you to discern. that I don't mean

00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:28.460
it. Yeah. If that makes sense. So just as an

00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:32.440
example, in the episode about Findom, we talked

00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:36.079
about the blowjob game. Yes. That we played.

00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.619
As part of that scene, I said something like,

00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.599
you used to get paid to do this. How on earth

00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.880
did you get paid to do this when you're so fucking

00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:52.799
useless at it? That's about you. Yeah. And you

00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.299
know, we both know that that's not what I think

00:31:56.299 --> 00:31:57.880
because you're really, really good at giving

00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:01.440
really, really good blowjobs. Thank you. I know.

00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.079
I made a lot of money doing it. You made a lot

00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:06.000
of money doing it. And I have experienced them.

00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:08.819
So we know that's not true. Yeah. I think when

00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:11.440
it comes to things like saying that you're unlovable.

00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:14.740
I think there is a slightly higher risk that

00:32:14.740 --> 00:32:16.940
it is harder to discern that it is not true.

00:32:17.660 --> 00:32:20.299
I think that's probably why I like it as well,

00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:24.779
because it's my biggest fear. Yeah. It's something

00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:26.980
that I held as a real belief for a very, very

00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:30.180
long time. Yeah. And every relationship I've

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.279
had that has ended has just reinforced that fear.

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.519
this constant feeling of being too much for people

00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.720
or not enough. And I think I have a more secure

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.460
attachment with you than I've ever had before.

00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.859
Like it's something that both I have worked on

00:32:42.859 --> 00:32:44.940
for myself because I know that constantly thinking

00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:46.779
I'm on the edge of crisis as soon as I go on

00:32:46.779 --> 00:32:48.160
a date with someone, they're going to abandon

00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:51.220
me. It's not good for me. But partly also because

00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:52.779
you are very good at giving the right amount

00:32:52.779 --> 00:32:55.019
of reassurance in a way that doesn't encourage

00:32:55.019 --> 00:32:57.559
me to sort of obsessively ask for reassurance,

00:32:57.579 --> 00:33:00.160
but actively makes me feel reassured all the

00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.460
time. You're a very direct person, which I think

00:33:03.460 --> 00:33:08.099
helps. Like if there's an issue, if there's something

00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.859
I'm doing that's hurting you or there's something

00:33:09.859 --> 00:33:12.480
we need to address, you will address it. So I

00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.559
can be pretty confident that if you're not saying

00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:17.240
there's a problem, there probably isn't one.

00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.220
Yeah. But I still have that fear because every

00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:23.000
relationship I've had in the past has ended.

00:33:23.500 --> 00:33:26.359
And generally it's been ended along with a message

00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:29.930
that in some way I am deficient. And that's rough.

00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:33.609
Yeah. But that's exactly why I like playing with

00:33:33.609 --> 00:33:36.230
it because it hits really fucking hard. Hits

00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:41.509
like a truck. Yeah. And I can see that from your

00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:44.250
perspective. And I accept that my perspective

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:46.069
on it is a little bit selfish because I am hurting

00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:48.630
my own feelings when I'm saying that because

00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:50.670
it is everything else that I would do to you

00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:52.609
or say to you in that degradation, humiliation

00:33:52.609 --> 00:33:57.130
space. I know isn't true. Yeah. And I also know

00:33:57.130 --> 00:33:59.569
that you are not unlovable. And I'm not here

00:33:59.569 --> 00:34:02.109
just for the transaction of it. But that kind

00:34:02.109 --> 00:34:05.049
of more direct connection to me makes it a lot

00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:08.489
harder for me to get my head around. Does it

00:34:08.489 --> 00:34:11.469
sort of stray into that kind of like moral injury

00:34:11.469 --> 00:34:13.789
territory for you, Mix, where it feels like you're

00:34:13.789 --> 00:34:15.929
creating a reality where you have been faking

00:34:15.929 --> 00:34:17.670
elements of our relationship? That's essentially

00:34:17.670 --> 00:34:19.429
what you'd be saying in that scenario is when

00:34:19.429 --> 00:34:21.710
I tell you I love you, I'm lying. When I show

00:34:21.710 --> 00:34:24.210
love to you, it's fake. It's putting yourself

00:34:24.210 --> 00:34:27.440
into a box where you are. a genuinely terrible

00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:29.820
person even though you're just playing with it

00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.340
and even though we play with you being a terrible

00:34:31.340 --> 00:34:34.179
person quite a lot maybe it bumps up against

00:34:34.179 --> 00:34:35.880
a line where it's like actually this version

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:37.739
of a terrible person is not one i even want to

00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:39.539
pretend to be i think i think it might be and

00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:41.840
and that might step it becomes a bit of a feedback

00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:47.579
loop i suppose because um i i know that about

00:34:47.579 --> 00:34:50.940
you you know i know that that's been your experience

00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.340
you've often been told by people that you're

00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:55.519
in relationships that you are somehow deficient

00:34:56.119 --> 00:35:00.579
Or also weirdly too much. Yeah. You know, you've

00:35:00.579 --> 00:35:03.380
always had that. Both too much and not enough

00:35:03.380 --> 00:35:05.739
is very much a theme of my life. Yeah. Which

00:35:05.739 --> 00:35:07.900
like I get it. If I take a step back, I get it

00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:10.199
because I am not necessarily a straightforward

00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:14.039
person. I am very emotionally heightened. I think

00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:17.679
I'm quite emotionally high maintenance. And I

00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.420
think I just needed to find someone who was on

00:35:20.420 --> 00:35:22.340
my level with that shit, which you really are.

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:24.619
But for a long time, I really just felt like

00:35:24.619 --> 00:35:26.519
I'm either going to have to fundamentally change

00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:28.420
who I am as a person or I'm going to die alone.

00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:32.380
Those are the options. Yeah, that's which is

00:35:32.380 --> 00:35:37.619
terrible. Well, that got real depressing. It

00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:41.019
did. It did. But I think that I think you're

00:35:41.019 --> 00:35:43.420
right. It is maybe straying a little bit further.

00:35:44.889 --> 00:35:47.449
than than perhaps i am it's butting up against

00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:49.730
my comfort level i suppose because a lot of what

00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:51.590
we do is about targeting your insecurities and

00:35:51.590 --> 00:35:55.389
targeting your experiences calling you unlovable

00:35:55.389 --> 00:35:58.909
targets your insecurity but it is an insecurity

00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:03.929
i have influence over yeah whereas a lot of the

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:06.090
other thing i can't really do anything about

00:36:06.090 --> 00:36:09.280
them yeah do you know what i mean they're things

00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.159
that have happened in your past they are things

00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.940
that are fairly deeply ingrained in in you and

00:36:13.940 --> 00:36:17.719
beyond being a supportive partner there isn't

00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:20.059
a lot that i can do about that yeah whereas the

00:36:20.059 --> 00:36:23.119
unlovable stuff actually there i could have an

00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:26.019
influence over that yeah do you know what i mean

00:36:26.759 --> 00:36:29.760
So, yeah, it's a difficult one. Does that make

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.340
sense? It does. You look a little bit confused.

00:36:31.500 --> 00:36:33.619
No, I'm not looking confused, Mix. It's that

00:36:33.619 --> 00:36:36.039
my face is all swollen from the eyelashes that

00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:40.940
I tried to tough out. This is completely irrelevant

00:36:40.940 --> 00:36:44.099
to the episode, but just for the awareness of

00:36:44.099 --> 00:36:46.539
anyone listening, I am an idiot. My eyes started

00:36:46.539 --> 00:36:48.199
itching and burning. I just thought, no, no,

00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.000
I'm just going to ignore this. And it's reached

00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.260
a point where most of today I basically haven't

00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:54.219
been able to see and my eyes have been watering

00:36:54.219 --> 00:36:56.440
constantly and I'm fully red around the eyes.

00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:59.099
And I still didn't volunteer to take them off.

00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:01.940
Mix put the big light on to set up for the podcast,

00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.139
saw my eyes in full light for the first time

00:37:04.139 --> 00:37:05.880
in a couple of days and went, take your eyelashes

00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:10.679
off now, which I have. so i need to try a different

00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:14.880
kind of glue after i heal up yes anyway so i

00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.460
think this is one of the especially if you're

00:37:16.460 --> 00:37:19.739
going to play it at the um poking at people's

00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:22.000
insecurities and poking at people's experiences

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.460
is not something that you just kind of jump into

00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:28.059
and go oh it'll be fine let's give that a go

00:37:28.059 --> 00:37:30.800
kind of thing i think i don't think there's any

00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:32.889
kinks that you should you should do that but

00:37:32.889 --> 00:37:34.889
there are some kinks where it's probably okay

00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:37.409
to wing it a little bit you're more likely to

00:37:37.409 --> 00:37:39.170
get away with it yeah yeah more likely to get

00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:40.610
away with it if you wing it a little bit but

00:37:40.610 --> 00:37:42.670
this is definitely not one of them i don't think

00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:47.929
um so what would you say are important things

00:37:47.929 --> 00:37:50.989
to think about in terms of negotiating for it

00:37:50.989 --> 00:37:53.409
and caring for each other through it and after

00:37:53.409 --> 00:37:57.360
it yeah for sure um i First, I will admit there

00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.960
has definitely been times, Mix, where I have

00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.139
just fully jumped into this. Early days, I was

00:38:01.139 --> 00:38:03.960
doing some unwise things. I would recommend that

00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:06.539
this kind of play is best done either with someone

00:38:06.539 --> 00:38:09.949
that you know really, really well. Or if you

00:38:09.949 --> 00:38:12.969
are doing it as a casual pickup play with someone

00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:15.230
that you feel comfortable getting real vulnerable

00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:18.409
with real quickly, like you can't do this kind

00:38:18.409 --> 00:38:20.809
of play without a good amount of trust and some

00:38:20.809 --> 00:38:23.590
really good communication. Yeah. For me personally,

00:38:23.670 --> 00:38:25.769
as I've developed a better understanding of my

00:38:25.769 --> 00:38:27.570
kinks and some of the risks around them, both

00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:30.530
to me and particularly to other people, I have

00:38:30.530 --> 00:38:33.719
started to... take more of an approach with this

00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:35.920
kind of play that i would probably only do it

00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:38.000
in an established relationship or with someone

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:39.639
i've been playing with regularly for a while

00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.139
right um it definitely wasn't always like that

00:38:43.139 --> 00:38:45.719
but i had experiences where i triggered really

00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:48.179
bad drop in someone else from not approaching

00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:50.280
it carefully enough and I'm a lot more comfortable

00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:52.179
taking risks with me than I am with other people

00:38:52.179 --> 00:38:54.320
once I'd seen that impact it was like this isn't

00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:56.480
something I'm going to do casually anymore however

00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.480
well you try to negotiate it it just it's outside

00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:01.300
my risk profile and that doesn't mean that it's

00:39:01.300 --> 00:39:02.860
not right and I think if you're a really good

00:39:02.860 --> 00:39:04.599
communicator and the person you're playing with

00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:06.320
is a really good communicator it can be done

00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:09.039
so I think I was going to mention this later

00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:10.559
on but I'm going to mention it now as well there

00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:12.699
is a really good educator for all things emotional

00:39:12.699 --> 00:39:15.400
sadomasochism called Vahavta I'm going to put

00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.650
a link to her website in the description of this

00:39:17.650 --> 00:39:19.349
as well because I think if you have any level

00:39:19.349 --> 00:39:21.329
of interest in this kind of play even if you're

00:39:21.329 --> 00:39:22.829
planning to do it at a slightly lighter level

00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:24.909
than what we're talking about it's worth getting

00:39:24.909 --> 00:39:27.250
some proper education like she does a class about

00:39:27.250 --> 00:39:30.090
negotiating for emotional sadomasochism and I

00:39:30.090 --> 00:39:33.329
wish I'd done that in 2021 like I would have

00:39:33.329 --> 00:39:35.110
approached this stuff so much more carefully

00:39:35.110 --> 00:39:37.329
if I had it's brilliant but the main things for

00:39:37.329 --> 00:39:40.469
me is having a good level of trust so if you

00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:42.030
don't already have that you work on building

00:39:42.030 --> 00:39:43.989
that before you start doing high risk psychological

00:39:43.989 --> 00:39:47.130
play and then having really clear transparency

00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:49.170
with each other the stuff that i like to talk

00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.530
about in negotiation is talking about what you

00:39:52.530 --> 00:39:54.730
actually want to get from it and that doesn't

00:39:54.730 --> 00:39:56.949
have to be as specific as oh i really want you

00:39:56.949 --> 00:39:59.750
to cry or i want you to feel this very specific

00:39:59.750 --> 00:40:03.579
emotion but the general feel of what you're trying

00:40:03.579 --> 00:40:05.739
to get from it and what you're not trying to

00:40:05.739 --> 00:40:08.000
get from it is just as important, if not more

00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.119
so. Because if you don't get what you want from

00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:11.619
it, it's a bit disappointing. But if you get

00:40:11.619 --> 00:40:13.119
a feeling you don't want from it, it might really

00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:17.320
fuck you up. So I like to experience feelings

00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:20.739
of numbness. I like to feel really sort of deep

00:40:20.739 --> 00:40:23.139
feelings of sadness and grief and cry. I like

00:40:23.139 --> 00:40:26.880
to feel fear. I don't like to feel panic. And

00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.179
I don't want to experience actual trauma disorder

00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:31.920
symptoms. So I don't want to have a flashback.

00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.480
I don't want to fully dissociate. A bit of like

00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:37.780
going a little bit fuzzy around the edges of

00:40:37.780 --> 00:40:39.960
my brain level dissociation, great. Actually,

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.300
you know, losing time or losing chunks of memory,

00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:44.820
absolutely not what I'm going for. So talking

00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:47.619
about that and then talking through, and this

00:40:47.619 --> 00:40:49.840
goes for both sides, much as you're poking at

00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.079
the emotions of the submissive in these situations,

00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:53.579
the dominant is going to have some strong feelings

00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:55.500
as well. So talking about what feelings they

00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.019
want to avoid and then talking about what you

00:40:58.019 --> 00:41:01.000
know of what can trigger those feelings in you.

00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:03.000
So you can then avoid the actions that lead to

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.000
the feelings. I would say this stuff applies

00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.079
whether you're doing the lightest end of a little

00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:10.719
bit of verbal degradation, you know, a few slightly

00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:13.360
objectifying words and phrases during sex, or

00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:15.179
you're going into trauma play. Anywhere on that

00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:17.800
spectrum, it's worth talking about that. Even

00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.599
if it's only in quite a surface level way, if

00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.239
it's for lighter play, just to have an idea.

00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:24.800
I think... talking through what a bad emotional

00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.519
reaction again for everyone involved looks like

00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.820
so uh we talked quite early on about what happens

00:41:30.820 --> 00:41:32.940
if i have a flashback or if i have a panic attack

00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:35.579
what you might see and how you should respond

00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:37.880
to it um i actually think that's a good idea

00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:40.239
for negotiating for any play because you never

00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:41.480
know when something's going to trigger something

00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.500
like that if you're someone who gets panic attacks

00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:45.840
you can't guarantee that a spanking isn't going

00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:47.159
to be the thing that sets you off one of these

00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:49.519
days so talking about that if you're going to

00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:50.840
be intimate with someone i think it's a good

00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.340
idea because there's nothing worse than if you're

00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.840
having some kind of mental health crisis and

00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.920
then someone reacts in a way that makes it worse

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.480
um i've experienced this a lot if i have a flashback

00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.699
or a panic attack people will try to hug me or

00:42:04.699 --> 00:42:06.949
they will try to give me a glass of water don't

00:42:06.949 --> 00:42:08.429
know why everyone's so obsessed with glasses

00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:10.210
of water it's the last thing i want because i

00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:13.309
can't breathe i definitely can't drink um but

00:42:13.309 --> 00:42:15.570
if i'm already overwhelmed and someone grabs

00:42:15.570 --> 00:42:17.389
me and squeezes me really tight when i feel like

00:42:17.389 --> 00:42:19.070
i can't breathe and then he's trying to get me

00:42:19.070 --> 00:42:20.710
to drink water when i feel like i can't breathe

00:42:20.710 --> 00:42:22.309
my response is going to be as if you're trying

00:42:22.309 --> 00:42:23.949
to drown me in that moment i'm not going to be

00:42:23.949 --> 00:42:27.650
pleased um so talking about stuff like that because

00:42:27.650 --> 00:42:29.849
that's my need someone else's might be the complete

00:42:29.849 --> 00:42:32.750
opposite so yeah you kind of plan for how you

00:42:32.750 --> 00:42:34.769
deal with a bad thing if it happens you talk

00:42:34.769 --> 00:42:36.710
about the kind of good things you want to have

00:42:36.710 --> 00:42:39.670
and then you start do as i say not as i do start

00:42:39.670 --> 00:42:42.380
at a low level and work up relatively slowly

00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:45.000
don't jump from first degradation experience

00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.400
to throw everything in the kitchen sink at me

00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:50.139
and see what happens yeah um you want to ramp

00:42:50.139 --> 00:42:52.679
up in a gradual way so that you can see how it's

00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:54.500
sitting with you not just in the scene not just

00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:56.099
the immediate aftermath but also potentially

00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:58.320
a couple of weeks later you don't want to have

00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.059
like a sort of stacking effect where you play

00:43:00.059 --> 00:43:02.039
with four people in four days and then they all

00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.980
hit you on day eight yeah not a good time no

00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:08.849
not at all and i think talking about different

00:43:08.849 --> 00:43:11.070
aftercare needs i think for that kind this kind

00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:13.969
of play degradation humiliation emotional play

00:43:13.969 --> 00:43:20.019
i think almost you you need to talk specifically

00:43:20.019 --> 00:43:23.079
about the aftercare that you need for that versus

00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:25.599
anything else yeah it can often be very different

00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.179
it definitely is for me I tend to have quite

00:43:28.179 --> 00:43:30.179
low aftercare needs for any kind of play like

00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:32.900
I do in most cases bounce back quite well but

00:43:32.900 --> 00:43:35.380
I find this probably makes perfect logical sense

00:43:35.380 --> 00:43:37.440
for physical play I need more physical aftercare

00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.099
so I need a cigarette I need a drink I need some

00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:43.079
food I need a warm blanket I need a hug psychological

00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:47.719
play I need to talk I tend to be quite chatty

00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:51.639
I want to debrief the scene i want to give reassurance

00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:53.820
to my partner and potentially receive some reassurance

00:43:53.820 --> 00:43:55.599
i tend to need that less i tend to want to give

00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:59.579
more um but i want i want our brains to connect

00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:02.400
and for them to get back into the place that

00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:05.239
they normally are at so very verbal and i think

00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:08.019
in my experience at least everyone's going to

00:44:08.019 --> 00:44:10.239
vary but in my experience at least like tops

00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.719
and dominance need a lot of aftercare from this

00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:16.380
yeah um usually more than not just me like usually

00:44:16.380 --> 00:44:19.730
more than kind of an average bottom will um because

00:44:19.730 --> 00:44:23.230
i think in the aftermath is where you kind of

00:44:23.230 --> 00:44:25.150
suddenly remember all the things you've said

00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:28.329
and done and go oh my god yeah and it's very

00:44:28.329 --> 00:44:30.449
common for dominance to need a lot of verbal

00:44:30.449 --> 00:44:32.730
and physical reassurance and comfort i think

00:44:32.730 --> 00:44:34.789
yeah i think that's fair i'm thinking about my

00:44:34.789 --> 00:44:38.230
own aftercare needs when we do any any kind of

00:44:38.230 --> 00:44:39.969
play like generally speaking like you say if

00:44:39.969 --> 00:44:42.650
we're doing something physical then i will come

00:44:42.650 --> 00:44:45.809
and give you a cuddle afterwards but like that's

00:44:47.819 --> 00:44:50.099
that's less of a need for me. Obviously, it's

00:44:50.099 --> 00:44:52.599
always nice to have a cuddle. Yeah. But I don't

00:44:52.599 --> 00:44:54.780
feel like I need that to be able to kind of process

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:56.500
the scene. Whereas when we do things that are

00:44:56.500 --> 00:44:59.059
more kind of psychological or emotional, then

00:44:59.059 --> 00:45:03.719
I definitely do need that more. And actually,

00:45:03.739 --> 00:45:06.579
sometimes what I need is to go outside and stare

00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:08.960
at the grass for a bit. Yeah. You know, there's

00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:10.579
been a few times where we've done something where

00:45:10.579 --> 00:45:15.360
it's like, I've made sure that you're okay. But

00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:19.099
I've said, I just need to go and decompress for

00:45:19.099 --> 00:45:21.880
a few minutes outside, get some fresh air, look

00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.000
at some flowers, have a cigarette, and then I'll

00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:29.619
come back. Yeah. Just to kind of provide that,

00:45:29.699 --> 00:45:33.519
I think, little bit of separation between the

00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:37.980
scene and the aftercare for me. And I definitely

00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.260
think that in itself is an aftercare need. And

00:45:40.260 --> 00:45:41.980
for you, it's never been a long period. But there

00:45:41.980 --> 00:45:44.619
are people who just want to be alone after a

00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:48.119
scene for sometimes hours. They really they just

00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:49.820
want whoever they've been playing with to go

00:45:49.820 --> 00:45:52.840
away and leave them to process for a bit. And

00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.019
that wouldn't be for me. That wouldn't be my

00:45:55.019 --> 00:45:57.039
preference. I'm absolutely fine with with you

00:45:57.039 --> 00:45:59.059
or if I was playing with someone else with anybody

00:45:59.059 --> 00:46:01.340
needing a few minutes to themselves. But being

00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:03.559
fully alone for a long period after a scene would

00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:05.159
be really challenging for me and I think would

00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:08.590
trigger drop. But I think there's almost a stigma

00:46:08.590 --> 00:46:10.590
about it when people say that they don't want

00:46:10.590 --> 00:46:12.769
to receive any aftercare or they don't want to

00:46:12.769 --> 00:46:14.849
give any aftercare. Often what they're trying

00:46:14.849 --> 00:46:17.550
to communicate is my aftercare need is quiet,

00:46:17.690 --> 00:46:20.179
alone, processing time. yeah and that's just

00:46:20.179 --> 00:46:22.059
as valid as anything else it could be a deal

00:46:22.059 --> 00:46:24.219
breaker it could be a compatibility issue yeah

00:46:24.219 --> 00:46:26.579
if you're someone who needs like two hours of

00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:29.079
cuddling and chatting yeah you can't really play

00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:30.679
with someone who needs two hours of complete

00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:32.400
alone time like at least one of you is gonna

00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.699
end up having a terrible time there yeah that's

00:46:34.699 --> 00:46:36.480
a compatibility issue but that doesn't mean that

00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.159
any anyone in that situation is wrong i agree

00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:41.300
it's one of those truisms isn't it about what

00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:44.280
aftercare looks like if you don't provide aftercare

00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:48.329
you're a bad person well actually maybe maybe

00:46:48.329 --> 00:46:50.989
that's them like you say that's them communicating

00:46:50.989 --> 00:46:53.369
a need yeah and i'm not saying that there aren't

00:46:53.369 --> 00:46:55.230
people out there who don't provide aftercare

00:46:55.230 --> 00:46:58.170
because they're bad people they definitely are

00:46:58.170 --> 00:47:01.690
but that kind of universal truth of this is what

00:47:01.690 --> 00:47:03.150
aftercare looks like and if you're not doing

00:47:03.150 --> 00:47:05.449
it like this it is wrong yeah and bad and you

00:47:05.449 --> 00:47:08.889
are wrong and bad is is just as unhelpful as

00:47:08.889 --> 00:47:11.579
as anything else yeah the time that it's bad

00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:13.619
is if people have negotiated for aftercare and

00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:16.079
then and then someone doesn't deliver yeah unless

00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:17.519
there's some kind of emergency or something's

00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.420
come up for them where they just can't someone

00:47:19.420 --> 00:47:21.139
just going actually now fuck that i'm just gonna

00:47:21.139 --> 00:47:24.400
go that's when it becomes an issue yeah um but

00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:26.039
as long as everyone's clear and upfront about

00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:29.480
about what their aftercare needs are and can

00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:31.719
find a way to make those work together that's

00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:34.039
their business So we've talked quite a lot about

00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:36.360
how verbal aspects of degradation and humiliation

00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:38.400
can be used. I think that's a really strong focus

00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.119
for both of us. But another one that I really

00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:44.260
enjoy and you really enjoy is what I would consider

00:47:44.260 --> 00:47:46.619
the umbrella of gross kinks. Do you want to talk

00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:48.519
to us about those, Mix? The umbrella of gross

00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:53.820
kinks. Yes, Mix. Oh, that was a fun topic. Yeah,

00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:56.210
and I think... I think the first thing to say

00:47:56.210 --> 00:47:58.690
is that a lot of those kind of kinks exist in

00:47:58.690 --> 00:48:00.929
their own right. They're not of themselves degrading

00:48:00.929 --> 00:48:05.789
and humiliating necessarily. I think for us and

00:48:05.789 --> 00:48:10.690
for me, they're back to my jalapenos analogy.

00:48:10.869 --> 00:48:14.869
They're the jalapenos on the nachos. So in this

00:48:14.869 --> 00:48:18.949
case, the jalapenos are piss, spit, cum, vomit

00:48:18.949 --> 00:48:22.989
and... such things mix yes yeah tasty little

00:48:22.989 --> 00:48:28.670
tasty little treats tasty little mortals um on

00:48:28.670 --> 00:48:34.610
there um so yeah weirdly one of the grossest

00:48:34.610 --> 00:48:37.250
things i do to you is i spit on your face yeah

00:48:37.250 --> 00:48:39.590
i don't know why that above all of the things

00:48:39.590 --> 00:48:41.869
that i do to you The time you spit in my tea

00:48:41.869 --> 00:48:43.849
was worse. That was the grossest thing you've

00:48:43.849 --> 00:48:46.610
ever done to me. And people listening to this

00:48:46.610 --> 00:48:48.309
as we get further into this section are going

00:48:48.309 --> 00:48:50.409
to dispute that that's the grossest thing. But

00:48:50.409 --> 00:48:52.730
I maintain the grossest thing was when you brought

00:48:52.730 --> 00:48:55.329
me a cup of tea, made direct eye contact and

00:48:55.329 --> 00:48:57.869
then spat in it. Yeah. I did drink it though.

00:48:58.010 --> 00:49:01.170
You did drink it. Yeah. I think that was probably

00:49:01.170 --> 00:49:03.010
one of the meanest things I've ever done to you.

00:49:03.250 --> 00:49:06.269
Yeah. It's probably something about the fact

00:49:06.269 --> 00:49:09.840
that we're British. It is. Tea is like a... holy

00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:12.860
thing it is British blasphemy that to interfere

00:49:12.860 --> 00:49:16.179
with someone's cuppa yeah but it was great fun

00:49:16.179 --> 00:49:18.219
yeah and it was great fun seeing the look on

00:49:18.219 --> 00:49:20.039
your face when I did it because I didn't make

00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.719
no announcement of it I just made you a cup of

00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.179
tea and then spat in it and then went about my

00:49:25.179 --> 00:49:29.039
day which was which was amazing um but there

00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:30.699
is something isn't there about bodily fluids

00:49:30.699 --> 00:49:35.480
that feels a little bit icky and can add a layer

00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.500
of degradation to whatever you're you're doing

00:49:37.500 --> 00:49:39.280
so whether you're kneeling on the floor and i

00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:40.840
am slapping you about and then i spit on your

00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:45.280
face or um one of the things that i really like

00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:48.239
to do is to um fuck your throat so violently

00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:52.400
that you throw up and piss yourself that's one

00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:56.179
of my favorites too yeah yeah um just add to

00:49:56.179 --> 00:50:01.519
the to add to the objectification of using your

00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:04.039
mouth in the way that I am using it to then have

00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:06.340
you just vomit all over the place and then pee

00:50:06.340 --> 00:50:09.219
yourself on the on the bath mat yeah there's

00:50:09.219 --> 00:50:11.300
something about like the aftermath of those scenes

00:50:11.300 --> 00:50:12.639
which is always good as well because usually

00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:14.219
when you do that to me it's usually in the bathroom

00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:17.059
for the sake of our carpets yes so I throw up

00:50:17.059 --> 00:50:19.119
I piss myself and then usually you'll either

00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.300
come on my face or you'll fuck me and come inside

00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:24.059
me yeah and then I end up just sort of like slumped

00:50:24.059 --> 00:50:27.440
on the bathroom floor tear street face really

00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.360
sweaty vomit splattered all over me cum dripping

00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:33.739
out of me from one end or the other yeah sitting

00:50:33.739 --> 00:50:37.340
in my own piss and it's just so depraved it's

00:50:37.340 --> 00:50:42.039
just like just really sticky and utterly ruined

00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:47.980
and it just feels so good and it really plays

00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:50.539
into that kind of dehumanization stuff as well

00:50:50.539 --> 00:50:53.599
doesn't it that kind of absolutely less than

00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:56.400
a person right now you couldn't get any lower

00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:01.340
yeah if you tried um and we will try i think

00:51:01.340 --> 00:51:05.219
there's an interesting thing about um poop poop

00:51:05.219 --> 00:51:09.139
poop so scat play is a kink in its own in its

00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:11.940
own right people don't necessarily do that for

00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:14.300
reasons of degradation and humiliation but they

00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:17.579
might yeah some people are just into it yeah

00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:19.360
a lot of people it can tie into vulnerability

00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:20.980
as well from some of the stuff that i've read

00:51:20.980 --> 00:51:23.480
on fetlife it's there's something very very intimate

00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:25.940
about pooping which is like the most private

00:51:25.940 --> 00:51:30.139
thing to involve someone else in that yeah but

00:51:30.139 --> 00:51:31.860
it often for a lot of people it has crossover

00:51:31.860 --> 00:51:34.639
with with humiliation and it's a really interesting

00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.260
thing for us because that's not one of our kinks

00:51:37.260 --> 00:51:39.900
scat is not one of our kinks no it's just not

00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:42.519
something that either of us are into if people

00:51:42.519 --> 00:51:46.349
are into it love that for you i wish you a life

00:51:46.349 --> 00:51:49.670
full of poop i am one of the most aggressive

00:51:49.670 --> 00:51:51.969
scat allies because i have so many kinks that

00:51:51.969 --> 00:51:53.650
people are like oh that's gross oh that's fucked

00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:55.550
up oh you should be ashamed of that so i'm so

00:51:55.550 --> 00:51:57.469
defensive of anyone else who's getting that shit

00:51:57.469 --> 00:51:59.269
i mean yeah yeah shit's maybe the wrong word

00:51:59.269 --> 00:52:03.809
getting that stuff thrown their way um like i've

00:52:03.809 --> 00:52:06.829
i've known it's not much better no it's not no

00:52:06.829 --> 00:52:11.389
it's not i'm sorry But no, I've met a few people

00:52:11.389 --> 00:52:12.889
who are into scat and often are made to feel

00:52:12.889 --> 00:52:14.769
like outsiders in the kink community. And it

00:52:14.769 --> 00:52:16.630
tends to be one of those things where people

00:52:16.630 --> 00:52:18.429
are like, oh, I'd be up for anything except that.

00:52:18.829 --> 00:52:21.070
And that's fine if that is your one limit. But

00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:22.690
it's the way that it's presented as if that's

00:52:22.690 --> 00:52:24.809
so obvious that no one would do that when people

00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:27.050
do. That's the difference, isn't it? It's like,

00:52:27.130 --> 00:52:30.489
I'm up for anything except scat, obviously. It's

00:52:30.489 --> 00:52:32.250
the obviously that's the problem, yeah. Yeah,

00:52:32.250 --> 00:52:41.320
it's horrible to behave like that. So that's

00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:44.460
not something that we are into, but it is a risk

00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:46.900
that we take that we do some accidental scat

00:52:46.900 --> 00:52:48.760
play. Because obviously I like to put things

00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.840
in your butt. Yeah. Generally my penis. And without

00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:55.579
really any warning. So because of the free use

00:52:55.579 --> 00:52:58.739
arrangement we have and the fact that like mix

00:52:58.739 --> 00:53:00.659
likes to be spontaneous, so they might not even

00:53:00.659 --> 00:53:02.579
know when they're planning to butt fuck me. We

00:53:02.579 --> 00:53:04.400
basically just do it when we do it. And if shit

00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:08.179
happens, shit happens. Yes. I try to eat a reasonably

00:53:08.179 --> 00:53:11.239
good diet. I try to do things to minimize that

00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:14.280
risk. But I'm not going and douching before we

00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:15.920
do anal because I don't get that kind of warning.

00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.159
No. So it is a risk we take. And it's interesting.

00:53:19.260 --> 00:53:21.739
I'm not interested in what would be considered

00:53:21.739 --> 00:53:25.400
scat play. So actively playing in shit is not

00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:29.559
for me. But I definitely do find there's an interesting

00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:31.719
thing that happens in my brain where if we do

00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:34.960
anal and it gets a bit messy, I am deeply and

00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:38.460
genuinely. horrified and humiliated like it's

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:41.960
really i feel really bad i'd feel bad for you

00:53:41.960 --> 00:53:44.699
and i feel just gross but because of who i am

00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:48.039
as a person i also get off on that yeah so i

00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:49.860
think it's not something that we're likely to

00:53:49.860 --> 00:53:52.860
really push at beyond that but i think i think

00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:54.559
a lot of people who say that scat is a limit

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:56.719
and they're not into scat if they really examine

00:53:56.719 --> 00:53:59.699
some of their kinks they would realize they have

00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:02.639
more scat adjacent kinks than they think if you

00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:04.460
say that scat is a hard limit but you do anal

00:54:04.460 --> 00:54:07.500
then you're lying about it being a hard limit

00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:10.239
because you're willing to take that risk um like

00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:12.079
if you're doing butt stuff if you're doing ass

00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:14.460
to mouth if you're eating ass particularly like

00:54:14.460 --> 00:54:16.960
these are scat adjacent kinks you might not want

00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:18.960
someone to actively poop while you're doing those

00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:21.480
things but you are you are getting real up close

00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:23.099
and personal with it and i think people should

00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:24.880
have a bit more self -awareness about that sometimes

00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:27.539
because yeah i think a lot of the fascination

00:54:27.539 --> 00:54:29.460
that we have with butts does come from there

00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:31.670
yeah and you might just be on the fringes of

00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:33.570
scat and that's okay i'm quite happy being on

00:54:33.570 --> 00:54:35.369
the fringes of scat i don't need to go any further

00:54:35.369 --> 00:54:37.909
in but i do like to be honest about where i am

00:54:37.909 --> 00:54:40.969
yes i always remember i think it was a pal of

00:54:40.969 --> 00:54:43.010
ours wasn't it we were talking about butt stuff

00:54:43.010 --> 00:54:45.949
um and they said you know you have to accept

00:54:45.949 --> 00:54:48.429
that if you're going to put something in someone's

00:54:48.429 --> 00:54:50.599
butt there's a chance of there being some poop

00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.059
involved because you are intruding on poop's

00:54:53.059 --> 00:54:54.960
domain. Poop is not intruding in your domain.

00:54:55.219 --> 00:54:57.860
Yeah. It's a really good way of thinking about

00:54:57.860 --> 00:54:59.400
it. It's a funny one because I've never really

00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:02.199
exploited that. And given the kind of person

00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:05.300
that I am, you'd think I would. But whenever

00:55:05.300 --> 00:55:09.039
that happens, whenever you are worried, after

00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:12.380
I have fucked you in the butt, that there might

00:55:12.380 --> 00:55:15.079
have been a small accident of some kind, you're

00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:17.179
always really apologetic. Yeah. I'm going to

00:55:17.179 --> 00:55:21.590
go, oh, I'm sorry. And like 99 % of the time,

00:55:21.630 --> 00:55:25.710
nothing's happened. We have been quite lucky.

00:55:25.969 --> 00:55:30.090
Yeah. I think with not having any kind of major...

00:55:30.090 --> 00:55:32.690
I love how you say it's luck when I'm micromanaging

00:55:32.690 --> 00:55:34.570
everything that goes into my body to control

00:55:34.570 --> 00:55:40.690
it. Yeah, that's true. That's a fair point. Top

00:55:40.690 --> 00:55:43.329
privilege here. Like, what? Like, it's just naturally

00:55:43.329 --> 00:55:51.010
clean back there. Is it? It's fine. But we haven't

00:55:51.010 --> 00:55:56.449
had many incidents, I suppose. But I have also

00:55:56.449 --> 00:55:58.630
never really kind of exploited that and kind

00:55:58.630 --> 00:56:01.530
of leaned into the humiliation of it. Yeah. You

00:56:01.530 --> 00:56:04.449
know, I think if it does, I should remember this.

00:56:05.030 --> 00:56:07.250
And if it does happen, kind of really lean into

00:56:07.250 --> 00:56:10.590
humiliating you for it. So moving swiftly on

00:56:10.590 --> 00:56:16.429
from poop. I guess another fluid that we haven't

00:56:16.429 --> 00:56:21.860
mentioned is tears. yeah and you um you very

00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:25.159
you very much enjoy crying yes and you very much

00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:27.400
enjoy me crying so it's a good combination definitely

00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:29.940
enjoy you crying there is a word for it isn't

00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:33.920
there there is a philia of uh for crying dacrophilia

00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:37.199
dacrophilia that's a great name for it so yeah

00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:39.360
i think i would i would probably classify myself

00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:41.400
as a dacrophiliac now that i've learned the word

00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:44.860
for it yeah um i do really enjoy seeing you crying

00:56:44.860 --> 00:56:52.500
i can tell Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I never fake

00:56:52.500 --> 00:56:55.260
cry because I like all I can to feel very, very

00:56:55.260 --> 00:56:57.719
real. But if I'm on the edge where I could cry

00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:00.440
or could not, and then I notice that you're maybe

00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:04.400
taking a minute to get hard or you're maybe struggling

00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:07.699
to finish while we're having sex, if I can cry,

00:57:07.860 --> 00:57:12.280
I will because it works. It really does. It does.

00:57:12.380 --> 00:57:14.780
You're right. And I think that probably ties

00:57:14.780 --> 00:57:16.659
into a wider thing about kind of seeing you in

00:57:16.659 --> 00:57:19.860
distress. Yeah. Is quite hot to me. But yes,

00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:23.420
when you cry, it is always a good time. For me.

00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.539
And for me. Like, I really enjoy it. If a scene

00:57:26.539 --> 00:57:28.639
makes me cry, I consider that a very successful

00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:32.659
scene. Yeah? Yeah, like proper, like messy, ugly

00:57:32.659 --> 00:57:35.119
crying as well. Yeah, yeah. What do you get out

00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:38.800
of that? Why is that such a thing for you? A

00:57:38.800 --> 00:57:40.659
lot of kink for me, one of the things I want

00:57:40.659 --> 00:57:43.800
to get from it is feeling very present and very

00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.539
real and raw and authentic in the moment. Sorry,

00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:51.739
I keep getting like a weird... Like I'm trying

00:57:51.739 --> 00:57:53.699
to burp, but I don't know how to burp, so it

00:57:53.699 --> 00:57:57.239
doesn't happen. Anyway. You don't know how to

00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:01.139
burp? I don't know how to burp, Mix. I'm not

00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:02.480
going to be able to cut this now, am I? You're

00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:04.510
going to question me about it. We'll come back

00:58:04.510 --> 00:58:06.489
to the crying question. You don't know how to

00:58:06.489 --> 00:58:08.530
burp. I don't know how to burp, Mix. I've never

00:58:08.530 --> 00:58:10.670
burped. I don't think that's true. I don't think

00:58:10.670 --> 00:58:14.789
burping is something that you learn. Is it? I

00:58:14.789 --> 00:58:16.469
don't know if it's something that you learn,

00:58:16.570 --> 00:58:18.170
but it is definitely something you can be taught

00:58:18.170 --> 00:58:20.969
not to do, Mix. And that was the issue. So I

00:58:20.969 --> 00:58:22.469
would be in severe trouble when I was a small

00:58:22.469 --> 00:58:25.429
child if I burped. Right. And I don't remember

00:58:25.429 --> 00:58:27.309
the last time I did it, but I obviously learned

00:58:27.309 --> 00:58:29.989
pretty quick. So now I sometimes feel like I

00:58:29.989 --> 00:58:32.269
get like there is something going on in that

00:58:32.269 --> 00:58:34.679
region. Right. And I don't know what to do about

00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:37.320
it. So I just kind of panic until it goes. Right.

00:58:37.500 --> 00:58:40.480
Because I don't know how. That's really interesting.

00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:43.059
It's wild the shit you can condition people to

00:58:43.059 --> 00:58:45.940
do if you abuse them badly enough. I know. That

00:58:45.940 --> 00:58:47.719
is wild. I'm going to have to pay attention to

00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:49.840
that now. I don't think I've ever noticed the

00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.579
fact that you don't burp. Anyway, you asked me

00:58:52.579 --> 00:58:57.300
about what I get out of crying. So I find that

00:58:57.300 --> 00:58:59.460
there's a lot of... A lot of freedom in being

00:58:59.460 --> 00:59:01.360
kind of really raw and present and authentic

00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:04.019
and messy and all of that. It's stripping all

00:59:04.019 --> 00:59:07.119
the pretense away. I often found, before I discovered

00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:09.679
King, that I would be very focused on performing

00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:13.199
during sex. It's like, suck your tummy in, make

00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.019
sure that you're pulling the right faces, make

00:59:15.019 --> 00:59:16.780
sure that you're making the right noises in the

00:59:16.780 --> 00:59:20.300
sexy way. All of that stuff. And it really just

00:59:20.300 --> 00:59:22.739
took me out of being present and enjoying it.

00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:24.780
And some of that was because vanilla sex isn't

00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:26.500
for me, but some of it, I think, is just that

00:59:26.500 --> 00:59:30.829
pressure. to do it like porn. And for me, when

00:59:30.829 --> 00:59:33.650
kink is really good, kink done right completely

00:59:33.650 --> 00:59:36.010
strips away any of that self -consciousness.

00:59:36.030 --> 00:59:38.730
And it's about sensation and experience and emotion.

00:59:38.769 --> 00:59:42.590
It's not about putting on a good show. As a result

00:59:42.590 --> 00:59:44.489
of that, when we do take pictures of it, it looks

00:59:44.489 --> 00:59:47.670
fucking awesome. But it's a very different kind

00:59:47.670 --> 00:59:51.429
of aesthetic. It's not about being pretty. It's

00:59:51.429 --> 00:59:54.579
about showing something really real. So crying

00:59:54.579 --> 00:59:56.619
is just the ultimate expression of that for me.

00:59:56.679 --> 00:59:59.500
It's like it's got so intense that I'm having

00:59:59.500 --> 01:00:02.179
this really strong, overwhelming physical reaction

01:00:02.179 --> 01:00:04.900
to my emotions. I love that. And it adds to all

01:00:04.900 --> 01:00:07.500
those other things like the jalapenos on the

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:11.440
nachos. If I'm also crying and pissing and throwing

01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.460
up and all of this stuff's going on, it's just

01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:17.579
all of the mess is being purged out of me. Yeah.

01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:21.900
Feels really, really freeing. tying into the

01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:24.360
dehumanization of it and and the humiliation

01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:28.500
of it it's like being the worst most messy and

01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:30.980
chaotic version of myself and being accepted

01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:33.679
and desired because of it yeah it's very similar

01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:36.159
to that used and useful combination that we have

01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:39.500
yeah like i'm a mess but i'm your mess yeah you

01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:45.320
are yeah you are yeah i mean i think it's fair

01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:48.820
to say isn't it that that um we've been on a

01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:52.400
bit of a journey with exploring degradation and

01:00:52.400 --> 01:01:00.539
humiliation and have escalated quite a bit in

01:01:00.539 --> 01:01:03.539
terms of what we do and how we do it. And a lot

01:01:03.539 --> 01:01:06.360
of that has been driven by my comfort at any

01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:09.579
given time. But one of the early things that

01:01:09.579 --> 01:01:12.440
we experimented with when we started to push

01:01:12.440 --> 01:01:14.460
at degradation and humiliation was around body

01:01:14.460 --> 01:01:20.199
shaming. Yep. Big fave. Big fave of yours. So

01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:24.960
yeah, talk about that. What's that about, Carizo?

01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:26.780
Body image is something that I've really struggled

01:01:26.780 --> 01:01:30.019
with for basically forever, Mix. I'm probably

01:01:30.019 --> 01:01:31.659
in the best place now that I've ever been with

01:01:31.659 --> 01:01:33.679
it, but I would still say I have the odd day

01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:35.840
where my relationship with my body isn't what

01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:37.980
I would quite like it to be. It's always a work

01:01:37.980 --> 01:01:40.260
in progress. So I think a lot of what draws me

01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:43.440
to playing with that is... that taking the power

01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:46.280
out of it and demystifying it and making it into

01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:48.699
a game instead of a thing that actually has the

01:01:48.699 --> 01:01:51.739
power to ruin my life which at times it has i've

01:01:51.739 --> 01:01:54.880
experienced both dysphoria and dysmorphia so

01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:57.639
dysphoria is gender dysphoria specifically is

01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:00.639
around feeling like my body is actively working

01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:03.840
against me feeling like my true self in regards

01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:07.699
to my gender yeah um and then dysmorphia is seeing

01:02:07.699 --> 01:02:10.670
my body as something very distorted from reality

01:02:10.670 --> 01:02:13.829
so looking at myself in the mirror and seeing

01:02:13.829 --> 01:02:17.050
myself as having a lot more body fat than i actually

01:02:17.050 --> 01:02:19.809
have or seeing my proportions as being off like

01:02:19.809 --> 01:02:22.730
people often talk about dysmorphia is just thinking

01:02:22.730 --> 01:02:24.489
you're fat and it's nowhere near that simple

01:02:24.489 --> 01:02:27.769
it often for me is extended to things like physically

01:02:27.769 --> 01:02:29.730
seeing my features actually move and warp in

01:02:29.730 --> 01:02:31.510
the mirror where my nose will become much bigger

01:02:31.510 --> 01:02:33.210
or my eyes will move further apart and things

01:02:33.210 --> 01:02:35.909
like that and really seeing myself as something

01:02:35.909 --> 01:02:39.480
grotesque And that's something that has eased

01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:42.159
over time and removing negative influences from

01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:44.699
my life and making sure to follow people with

01:02:44.699 --> 01:02:46.920
diverse looks on social media has done me a lot

01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:51.320
of good. And working on really sort of... like

01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:53.440
one of the reasons i take a lot of pictures is

01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:55.219
pictures don't distort as badly for me as the

01:02:55.219 --> 01:02:57.539
mirror does so i can look at a picture of me

01:02:57.539 --> 01:02:59.659
and i mean sometimes it me up because i'll be

01:02:59.659 --> 01:03:01.179
like why am i so much hotter in that picture

01:03:01.179 --> 01:03:02.860
than i am in real life and i have to remind myself

01:03:02.860 --> 01:03:05.260
that is me that is a picture of me taken three

01:03:05.260 --> 01:03:08.139
days ago that is what i look like calm down um

01:03:08.139 --> 01:03:10.480
that really helps for me for creating a bit of

01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:13.659
a sense of permanence about my appearance So

01:03:13.659 --> 01:03:16.599
I have really enjoyed the reclamation of that

01:03:16.599 --> 01:03:18.619
and turning it into something tangible, I think,

01:03:18.619 --> 01:03:20.440
as well, because so much of this battle has gone

01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:24.300
on in my head on my own for decades and suddenly

01:03:24.300 --> 01:03:26.199
turning that into a thing that actually exists

01:03:26.199 --> 01:03:29.059
in the physical world. And I can resist, even

01:03:29.059 --> 01:03:30.739
if all I'm doing is sitting there crying about

01:03:30.739 --> 01:03:33.179
it while you say terrible shit to me. At least

01:03:33.179 --> 01:03:36.880
I'm interacting with it in reality instead of

01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.679
by myself. Yeah. So I'm not alone with it anymore

01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:42.610
in a weird way. yeah so it's an interesting one

01:03:42.610 --> 01:03:45.090
and as we have said a few times it is just hot

01:03:45.090 --> 01:03:48.250
it is just hot having you say absolutely unjustifiably

01:03:48.250 --> 01:03:51.750
cruel stuff about my appearance just gets me

01:03:51.750 --> 01:03:56.889
off sometimes which is a good time yeah and like

01:03:56.889 --> 01:03:58.829
that's okay i know we keep saying this don't

01:03:58.829 --> 01:04:00.869
we but it is okay for it not to be that deep

01:04:00.869 --> 01:04:05.329
yeah you know um yeah for sure this is one that

01:04:05.329 --> 01:04:07.050
i definitely feel is quite deep for me but it

01:04:07.050 --> 01:04:08.849
doesn't have to be yeah and there's a lot of

01:04:08.849 --> 01:04:11.230
aspects of this kind of play that that aren't

01:04:11.230 --> 01:04:13.909
necessarily um but the stuff around body image

01:04:13.909 --> 01:04:16.090
i think i started doing it just because i was

01:04:16.090 --> 01:04:17.710
like i'll probably get off on this and it's hot

01:04:17.710 --> 01:04:19.650
and then i found how much more it did for me

01:04:19.650 --> 01:04:22.510
it has given me a much more stable sense of myself

01:04:22.510 --> 01:04:27.369
like how i look yeah um and a much more neutral

01:04:27.369 --> 01:04:30.440
view of how i look as well where it's now I look

01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:32.079
at myself and it's not about picking out the

01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:34.260
flaws and it's not even about picking out the

01:04:34.260 --> 01:04:36.000
good things to try to make myself feel better.

01:04:36.260 --> 01:04:37.860
It's just like, oh yeah, there's a human body.

01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.699
Yeah. It does stuff. Cool. Which is amazing.

01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:46.599
They say kink isn't therapy, but. Yeah, kink

01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:49.119
isn't therapy, but. The but is an important part

01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:53.820
of that phrase. yeah and we have to balance some

01:04:53.820 --> 01:04:55.900
things quite carefully i think in our relationship

01:04:55.900 --> 01:04:58.480
because we play with body shaming in play yeah

01:04:58.480 --> 01:05:01.340
we also play with bimbofication which is very

01:05:01.340 --> 01:05:03.320
integrated into the dynamic and involves a lot

01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:07.079
of appearance control yeah um which i found incidentally

01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:08.880
like i found that really helpful in similar ways

01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:12.099
as well because if my appearance now if success

01:05:12.099 --> 01:05:14.260
is doing what you've told me to do and doing

01:05:14.260 --> 01:05:18.019
it consistently i stop measuring myself against

01:05:18.019 --> 01:05:19.820
a beauty standard or against a version of me

01:05:19.820 --> 01:05:22.659
that i think is ideal and success is now marked

01:05:22.659 --> 01:05:24.780
by have i done all the stuff mix told me to do

01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:28.000
and that takes a lot of pressure off yeah where

01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.619
anything else really matters not that much because

01:05:31.619 --> 01:05:34.199
if you are happy with the result of your control

01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:36.800
yeah then i'm winning at appearance you know

01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:39.719
i've got 100 in that awesome so that's really

01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:42.059
helped as well But it's a very different vibe

01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:44.059
because that's not about tearing me down. That's

01:05:44.059 --> 01:05:46.139
about changing me. It's a different thing. And

01:05:46.139 --> 01:05:49.639
also we have sort of connected to bimbofication,

01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:51.500
but also connected to health and well -being.

01:05:51.539 --> 01:05:55.300
We have elements of exercise control and very,

01:05:55.420 --> 01:05:58.579
very light, very, very hands -off dietary control

01:05:58.579 --> 01:06:01.539
in our relationship as well. Focused around making

01:06:01.539 --> 01:06:03.619
sure that I'm eating healthy meals, but I'm not

01:06:03.619 --> 01:06:05.860
overeating, that I'm getting enough exercise

01:06:05.860 --> 01:06:08.039
to be healthy and work towards my goal of losing

01:06:08.039 --> 01:06:11.670
a little bit of weight. yeah so that can be a

01:06:11.670 --> 01:06:14.449
very tricky balance i think where if we're doing

01:06:14.449 --> 01:06:17.030
a scene where you're pinching my stomach and

01:06:17.030 --> 01:06:20.030
berating me for having fat there and then the

01:06:20.030 --> 01:06:22.570
next day you're like okay so your food allowance

01:06:22.570 --> 01:06:24.710
is x amount and i want you to do at least 30

01:06:24.710 --> 01:06:27.869
minutes of walking today there is that risk there

01:06:27.869 --> 01:06:30.510
of those becoming merged in either or both of

01:06:30.510 --> 01:06:33.230
our heads yeah and so we have to be quite careful

01:06:33.230 --> 01:06:35.679
about making sure those sit in the right boxes

01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:37.719
and that none of that ever becomes sort of genuinely

01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:41.039
destructive. Yeah. And we have spent quite a

01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:42.960
lot of time, haven't we, talking about the different

01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:45.699
aspects of that. And I think having control over

01:06:45.699 --> 01:06:49.139
your diet, I think one of those areas that, again,

01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:51.260
I kind of found really quite difficult to wrap

01:06:51.260 --> 01:06:53.099
my head around. I have a pretty cynical view

01:06:53.099 --> 01:06:56.079
of diets. Yeah. I think it's probably fair to

01:06:56.079 --> 01:06:59.679
say. And me too. I've been on all of them and

01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:02.980
they don't work. Yeah, I think that's the thing.

01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:05.840
I've known people, I've been in relationships

01:07:05.840 --> 01:07:09.059
with people who have kind of cycled through all

01:07:09.059 --> 01:07:12.820
of the fad diets that there are. And I include

01:07:12.820 --> 01:07:15.679
Slimming World and Weight Watchers in that. Oh,

01:07:15.699 --> 01:07:18.400
absolutely. I am not a fan of either of those.

01:07:19.219 --> 01:07:22.719
They are fad diets because the system that they

01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:26.059
use legally has to change. Yeah. They have to

01:07:26.059 --> 01:07:28.099
change it every three years or something ridiculous

01:07:28.099 --> 01:07:30.210
like that so they will... Teach everybody one

01:07:30.210 --> 01:07:31.829
system and then three years later they'll say,

01:07:31.889 --> 01:07:33.489
oh no, now we're going to do something completely

01:07:33.489 --> 01:07:36.130
different. If that's not a fad diet, I don't

01:07:36.130 --> 01:07:39.809
know what is. So I've kind of had that experience

01:07:39.809 --> 01:07:42.789
of people trying all of those diets and not succeeding

01:07:42.789 --> 01:07:45.969
and feeling really, really shit about it. So

01:07:45.969 --> 01:07:48.309
I'm really quite kind of cynical about diets

01:07:48.309 --> 01:07:51.070
and structured diets in that way. And as a result

01:07:51.070 --> 01:07:53.889
of that, kind of struggle with the idea of having

01:07:53.889 --> 01:07:57.010
too much control over your diet. Yeah. Because

01:07:57.010 --> 01:08:00.840
who the fuck am I to say anything? about what

01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:02.659
what somebody should do if they want to lose

01:08:02.659 --> 01:08:05.260
weight which is i think why we agreed the approach

01:08:05.260 --> 01:08:08.699
we have where i know quite a lot both about all

01:08:08.699 --> 01:08:10.900
the stupid fad diets i've tried but also generally

01:08:10.900 --> 01:08:13.940
about nutrition for health yeah and how to do

01:08:13.940 --> 01:08:16.500
weight loss relatively sustainably i say relatively

01:08:16.500 --> 01:08:18.899
because the evidence is mounting up more and

01:08:18.899 --> 01:08:20.600
more and more there is no such thing as sustainable

01:08:20.600 --> 01:08:23.739
weight loss any method that you lose to you Any

01:08:23.739 --> 01:08:25.340
methods that you use to lose weight, however

01:08:25.340 --> 01:08:27.079
slowly you do it, however healthily you do it,

01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:29.939
however carefully, if you have been heavier already,

01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:32.720
your body will naturally draw to go back to that.

01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:34.800
It will panic at the loss of weight and it will

01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.159
be fighting you to get bigger again. That's just

01:08:37.159 --> 01:08:41.680
biology. But weight loss that is more likely

01:08:41.680 --> 01:08:44.439
to be sustained for a longer period of time and

01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:46.760
easier to get back to if you do regain weight

01:08:46.760 --> 01:08:49.720
at some point. I know quite a lot about sort

01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:52.829
of the least harmful ways to achieve that. um

01:08:52.829 --> 01:08:54.930
and i've been really into fitness and i've been

01:08:54.930 --> 01:08:57.470
really into nutrition in the past and i'm now

01:08:57.470 --> 01:08:59.430
working to find the right balance between that

01:08:59.430 --> 01:09:01.710
but also loving to bake sourdough and loving

01:09:01.710 --> 01:09:05.260
to cook you big meat and potato based meals.

01:09:05.380 --> 01:09:08.060
Yes. And liking to also eat those myself and

01:09:08.060 --> 01:09:10.960
enjoying eating cheese. I don't want to be stick

01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:13.819
thin. I don't want to have perfect abs. I want

01:09:13.819 --> 01:09:16.039
to have a body that complains at the knees and

01:09:16.039 --> 01:09:19.239
hips a little bit less and can maybe run slightly

01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:22.960
longer distances and feels healthier and yeah,

01:09:23.020 --> 01:09:25.020
looks aesthetically more like what I personally

01:09:25.020 --> 01:09:28.460
want. But I'm not aiming for perfection. I'm

01:09:28.460 --> 01:09:30.439
not aiming for something that is actually not

01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:33.119
achievable for someone of my build in my mid

01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:36.260
-30s. You know, it's not about punishing myself

01:09:36.260 --> 01:09:40.279
for having body fat. And so if I set what I need

01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:43.060
to do to achieve that, all that your role is,

01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:45.319
is you take over the authority of making sure

01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:48.079
that I stick to it. yeah if i say this is the

01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:49.960
balance of nutrition that i need to be eating

01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:51.800
this is around the amount of calories that i

01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:53.220
should be eating to get to where i want to be

01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:54.939
this is the amount of exercise i should be doing

01:09:54.939 --> 01:09:57.420
to ramp up my fitness again you hold me to account

01:09:57.420 --> 01:09:59.739
which i feel is a really good balance and a more

01:09:59.739 --> 01:10:02.359
ethical way of doing it than even if you were

01:10:02.359 --> 01:10:05.939
qualified for you to combine dominance with being

01:10:05.939 --> 01:10:08.539
a personal trainer feels like it would get iffy

01:10:08.539 --> 01:10:10.020
in the same way i think we've talked about before

01:10:10.020 --> 01:10:12.789
like trying to combine being someone's therapist

01:10:12.789 --> 01:10:15.329
with doing kink to them you're not there to treat

01:10:15.329 --> 01:10:17.270
a problem even if the kink ends up being therapeutic

01:10:17.270 --> 01:10:21.229
you're also not here to be my pt yeah yeah yeah

01:10:21.229 --> 01:10:24.810
and i wouldn't want to be but we try don't we

01:10:24.810 --> 01:10:29.430
to keep those as separate things mostly yeah

01:10:29.430 --> 01:10:30.949
but i think as we've started to get comfortable

01:10:30.949 --> 01:10:32.930
with the darker elements of our dynamic we are

01:10:32.930 --> 01:10:36.369
allowing a controlled blurring yeah But it is

01:10:36.369 --> 01:10:39.729
a controlled and context specific and time limited

01:10:39.729 --> 01:10:43.569
blurring. So generally play and your control

01:10:43.569 --> 01:10:46.649
around my diet sit in two very separate boxes.

01:10:46.890 --> 01:10:49.670
And then we will negotiate scenes that will be

01:10:49.670 --> 01:10:52.789
a one off instance where if I've gained weight

01:10:52.789 --> 01:10:54.869
at my way and you will verbally degrade me, for

01:10:54.869 --> 01:10:57.189
example. Yeah. But that's not something that's

01:10:57.189 --> 01:11:00.229
going to happen on a random Tuesday. Yeah. yeah

01:11:00.229 --> 01:11:02.770
yeah that's that's where the line is for us and

01:11:02.770 --> 01:11:04.310
that's something that we've worked up to over

01:11:04.310 --> 01:11:06.270
a couple of years of playing around with these

01:11:06.270 --> 01:11:08.029
things in complete isolation from each other

01:11:08.029 --> 01:11:10.390
before we started yeah like okay but what if

01:11:10.390 --> 01:11:13.869
we what if we mix them yeah what if yeah yeah

01:11:13.869 --> 01:11:16.609
yeah i guess it's that for me it's that separation

01:11:16.609 --> 01:11:20.229
between actually enforcing the rules and playing

01:11:20.229 --> 01:11:23.109
at playing for me yeah And you're right, there

01:11:23.109 --> 01:11:25.850
is a little bit of blurring of the lines, like

01:11:25.850 --> 01:11:27.789
you said, about verbally degrading you when you

01:11:27.789 --> 01:11:33.430
weigh yourself, as an example. But if I actually

01:11:33.430 --> 01:11:35.630
had any concerns about your commitment to or

01:11:35.630 --> 01:11:38.470
your achievement of meeting the rules, that would

01:11:38.470 --> 01:11:40.470
be a separate conversation? Yeah, definitely.

01:11:40.909 --> 01:11:43.350
I'm not going to turn around and grab a hold

01:11:43.350 --> 01:11:45.770
of your belly and start degrading you in that

01:11:45.770 --> 01:11:49.539
context? Yeah. yeah when you degrade me about

01:11:49.539 --> 01:11:52.399
my body it's always in the context of i am doing

01:11:52.399 --> 01:11:54.439
what i'm supposed to be doing in the rules and

01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:56.760
we're having fun yeah one that i really liked

01:11:56.760 --> 01:11:59.579
a while ago like in my in the rules uh we've

01:11:59.579 --> 01:12:01.579
agreed like i'll track what i eat and make sure

01:12:01.579 --> 01:12:03.800
that i'm eating the right things for the goals

01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:05.779
i want to achieve yeah but there's certain things

01:12:05.779 --> 01:12:08.000
that i don't track so i don't track drinks for

01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.039
example i know people who are serious about their

01:12:10.039 --> 01:12:13.029
diets will be horrified at that but I drink sugar

01:12:13.029 --> 01:12:15.109
-free squash and one coffee a day. It's fine.

01:12:16.130 --> 01:12:18.890
And I don't track what I call the butter tax,

01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:21.489
which is where if I'm cooking with butter, I

01:12:21.489 --> 01:12:24.270
will cut myself a thin slice of cold butter and

01:12:24.270 --> 01:12:27.310
eat it like it's cheese, which Mick finds absolutely

01:12:27.310 --> 01:12:29.329
disgusting. It's disgusting. It's delicious.

01:12:30.069 --> 01:12:32.989
But yeah, it's completely within the rules. I

01:12:32.989 --> 01:12:34.729
don't have to track the butter tax. The butter

01:12:34.729 --> 01:12:37.420
tax doesn't count towards anything. The butter

01:12:37.420 --> 01:12:39.920
tax is completely legal. But there have been

01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:41.479
a couple of times where you've come in and seen

01:12:41.479 --> 01:12:43.760
me eating a slab of butter and gone, well, you're

01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:45.640
going to still be fat if you keep eating slices

01:12:45.640 --> 01:12:48.000
of butter like that. Stop eating butter. And

01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:50.399
I'm like, oh, and then I eat my butter and I

01:12:50.399 --> 01:12:57.239
have a great time. Yeah. And that's the really

01:12:57.239 --> 01:12:59.979
tricky thing with that. So, you know, we're starting

01:12:59.979 --> 01:13:02.239
to play with a little bit of kind of unreasonable

01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.649
tyranny on my part. Love a bit of unreasonable

01:13:05.649 --> 01:13:09.590
tyranny. Where I will say things like that or

01:13:09.590 --> 01:13:12.470
manufacture a situation where I can degrade you

01:13:12.470 --> 01:13:14.689
or humiliate you or do something mean to you.

01:13:14.810 --> 01:13:17.350
And it's really, really fun exploring that. But

01:13:17.350 --> 01:13:21.029
it is really difficult to stay in that mean headspace

01:13:21.029 --> 01:13:26.569
when you're doing a little wiggle and trying

01:13:26.569 --> 01:13:29.649
not to smile when it's happening. Because you

01:13:29.649 --> 01:13:31.569
really enjoy it. We wouldn't be doing it if you

01:13:31.569 --> 01:13:35.510
didn't actually enjoy it. Yeah. And you can't

01:13:35.510 --> 01:13:38.569
stop yourself. No, I'm so happy. I'm so proud

01:13:38.569 --> 01:13:40.149
of you as well. And if you do something like

01:13:40.149 --> 01:13:42.670
that, I'm like, oh, yes, they're really like

01:13:42.670 --> 01:13:44.170
they're going for it. They're going for it. I'm

01:13:44.170 --> 01:13:46.170
so proud. And it's really hot. And I've got a

01:13:46.170 --> 01:13:49.029
slice of butter. Life is so good. Everything

01:13:49.029 --> 01:13:53.939
is coming together. I think the funniest, and

01:13:53.939 --> 01:13:55.579
I mean, you must have known this one was going

01:13:55.579 --> 01:13:57.979
to make me giggle, was I need to give some background

01:13:57.979 --> 01:14:01.680
here. So I have got a ladybird stuffy whose name

01:14:01.680 --> 01:14:04.399
is Fat Fuck. And that sounds really mean. Most

01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:06.420
of my stuffies have names that are usually like

01:14:06.420 --> 01:14:09.260
food related or something really cutesy. Fat

01:14:09.260 --> 01:14:12.060
Fuck is named that because of a meme where someone

01:14:12.060 --> 01:14:15.159
had. posted one for sale on amazon and probably

01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:17.100
it was like their draft for the listing they

01:14:17.100 --> 01:14:18.779
called him fat fuck and then posted it without

01:14:18.779 --> 01:14:20.720
realizing it yeah so there's a screenshot going

01:14:20.720 --> 01:14:23.239
around if you google fat fuck ladybird i promise

01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:25.279
you you will find it and it's great yeah um so

01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:27.159
i have that actual ladybird and i named him fat

01:14:27.159 --> 01:14:31.060
fuck that's his name yeah yeah and he loves it

01:14:31.060 --> 01:14:34.279
yeah um so every time i pick him up i go oh yes

01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:37.819
fat fuck and i'm delighted by it um it's absolutely

01:14:38.510 --> 01:14:41.189
affectionate fat fuck yeah um but not long after

01:14:41.189 --> 01:14:44.609
i got fat fuck we had started wanting to integrate

01:14:44.609 --> 01:14:47.069
the body shaming play that we do more into our

01:14:47.069 --> 01:14:48.750
day -to -day life rather than isolated scenes

01:14:48.750 --> 01:14:53.010
um and mix came up to me when i was i think getting

01:14:53.010 --> 01:14:55.029
dressed not wearing very much so my tummy was

01:14:55.029 --> 01:14:58.029
out grabbed a handful of my tummy and said a

01:14:58.029 --> 01:14:59.510
bunch of mean things to me and then was like

01:14:59.510 --> 01:15:01.810
look at this you fat fuck and i immediately just

01:15:01.810 --> 01:15:08.319
cracked up laughing yeah yeah And as soon as

01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:12.760
I said it, I knew. You knew. The second the words

01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:14.479
went, before I'd even registered that you were

01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:20.380
chortling, I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. But

01:15:20.380 --> 01:15:22.779
it's that kind of thing. It's exactly that kind

01:15:22.779 --> 01:15:25.319
of thing, is that for all of the reasons that

01:15:25.319 --> 01:15:27.659
you have just laid out, it is so hard for you

01:15:27.659 --> 01:15:30.340
to stay in the moment. Yeah. If you get mean

01:15:30.340 --> 01:15:32.899
enough, I do, though. You just have to get really

01:15:32.899 --> 01:15:35.340
nasty to stop me grinning and giggling about

01:15:35.340 --> 01:15:38.300
it. Yeah. Because I think one of the things that

01:15:38.300 --> 01:15:40.960
I'm kind of trying to practice a little bit is

01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:43.140
be a little bit more offhand about it. Yeah.

01:15:43.899 --> 01:15:45.840
You know, rather than kind of making it a big

01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:48.439
thing, like coming in and standing over you and

01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:50.439
kind of overpowering you and grabbing a hold

01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:53.300
of you and being really mean and stuff. It's

01:15:53.300 --> 01:15:55.939
like trying out kind of more offhand comments

01:15:55.939 --> 01:15:59.060
that just kind of slip in and like drift away.

01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:02.399
But even then, I kind of look at you and you've

01:16:02.399 --> 01:16:04.800
got that little smile in the corner of your mouth.

01:16:05.920 --> 01:16:08.840
Like that is not the impact that I'm trying to

01:16:08.840 --> 01:16:11.800
have here. But I don't think it's a bad thing

01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:13.239
because some of that is about building up your

01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:15.279
comfort with it. So it can be quite casual and

01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:17.859
quite chill. And some of it is about the cumulative

01:16:17.859 --> 01:16:20.220
effect of that over time. I think a lot of this

01:16:20.220 --> 01:16:22.340
is very experimental where it's like, yeah, the

01:16:22.340 --> 01:16:25.279
first time that you berate me for eating butter,

01:16:25.399 --> 01:16:26.760
I'm going to grin and wiggle about it. But the

01:16:26.760 --> 01:16:29.000
50th time you do it, I might start looking over

01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:30.800
my shoulder before I cut a slab of butter. It's

01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:32.859
things like that that can have that drip, drip,

01:16:32.899 --> 01:16:36.369
drip in your brain. And also when we do scenes

01:16:36.369 --> 01:16:38.970
where it's like full immersion, full intensity,

01:16:39.010 --> 01:16:41.670
I do get genuinely upset. I do feel really strong

01:16:41.670 --> 01:16:43.430
emotions. It's not like I'm losing the ability

01:16:43.430 --> 01:16:46.909
or becoming desensitized. It's nice that this

01:16:46.909 --> 01:16:49.430
kind of play has levels. Like when you start

01:16:49.430 --> 01:16:52.670
talking about degradation, humiliation, emotional

01:16:52.670 --> 01:16:55.149
sadomasochism, dark dynamics, it can all start

01:16:55.149 --> 01:16:58.409
to sound like really edgy, gritty, nasty stuff.

01:16:58.609 --> 01:17:01.689
And that's great. But also this kind of stuff

01:17:01.689 --> 01:17:04.840
can be integrated into... just really silly goofy

01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:07.579
moments as well like giggling about a ladybird

01:17:07.579 --> 01:17:10.100
called fat fuck and yeah yeah running around

01:17:10.100 --> 01:17:11.819
the kitchen eating my butter trying to get away

01:17:11.819 --> 01:17:16.039
from you it's not always super serious it's still

01:17:16.039 --> 01:17:18.720
part of the same genre of kink just yeah just

01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:20.699
a lighter version different version of it what

01:17:20.699 --> 01:17:24.079
about you mix what do you enjoy about body shaming

01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:26.699
me and being a huge fat phobe i i think it's

01:17:26.699 --> 01:17:32.840
the um i think it's the cruelty of it i i that

01:17:32.840 --> 01:17:38.699
that Most appeals to me, it's just so personal

01:17:38.699 --> 01:17:44.600
and so potentially so nasty. And I think we've

01:17:44.600 --> 01:17:51.060
kind of talked about this before and said Elle

01:17:51.060 --> 01:17:54.340
talks about it a lot. A lot of kink is about

01:17:54.340 --> 01:17:58.180
replicating things that happen at the level of

01:17:58.180 --> 01:18:02.199
society within a safe and ethical and consensual

01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:05.090
framework. And that idea of absolving yourself

01:18:05.090 --> 01:18:07.430
of the moral responsibility for being a good

01:18:07.430 --> 01:18:10.710
person in that specific context. Yeah. And I

01:18:10.710 --> 01:18:12.909
just think there is something about the way that

01:18:12.909 --> 01:18:15.909
people who don't conform to our societal expectations

01:18:15.909 --> 01:18:18.890
of what a good body is, the way that those people

01:18:18.890 --> 01:18:23.770
are treated is so awful that to be able to kind

01:18:23.770 --> 01:18:27.050
of do that in our very specific context, to take

01:18:27.050 --> 01:18:28.970
that level of cruelty that people experience

01:18:28.970 --> 01:18:34.090
and apply it in our context is just... incredibly

01:18:34.090 --> 01:18:37.449
exciting yeah which is an awful thing to say

01:18:37.449 --> 01:18:42.970
people it is amazing we have any listeners at

01:18:42.970 --> 01:18:44.630
all the way that i talk about some of this stuff

01:18:44.630 --> 01:18:47.949
sometimes um i think people want to understand

01:18:47.949 --> 01:18:51.479
it even if they can't relate to it it's Like

01:18:51.479 --> 01:18:53.720
it's demystifying. Like, yeah, the reality is

01:18:53.720 --> 01:18:56.319
you are a sadist. You get off on hurting people

01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:59.300
physically and emotionally. And what I hope we

01:18:59.300 --> 01:19:01.640
show through this podcast is that the only time

01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:04.539
that interests you is when you are doing it consensually

01:19:04.539 --> 01:19:06.520
with someone who actively loves and gets off

01:19:06.520 --> 01:19:09.260
on it themselves. Yeah. You're not just using

01:19:09.260 --> 01:19:11.060
me as an easy option and you would be out here.

01:19:11.350 --> 01:19:13.310
kidnapping people off the street otherwise you

01:19:13.310 --> 01:19:14.930
want to do this with someone who likes it as

01:19:14.930 --> 01:19:17.510
much as you do yeah and i'm really glad sadists

01:19:17.510 --> 01:19:19.430
exist because otherwise i would not have a sex

01:19:19.430 --> 01:19:22.569
life yeah you'd be very bored i would be masturbating

01:19:22.569 --> 01:19:29.890
a lot yeah um so yeah i think there's that powerfulness

01:19:29.890 --> 01:19:32.470
of it the excitement of kind of doing those things

01:19:32.470 --> 01:19:35.250
that are just really really unacceptable societally

01:19:35.250 --> 01:19:38.149
and and and you wouldn't dream of saying being

01:19:38.149 --> 01:19:41.449
able to direct that at someone and have that

01:19:41.449 --> 01:19:44.569
kind of the response that you get from it, both

01:19:44.569 --> 01:19:46.869
in terms of the emotional distress, but also

01:19:46.869 --> 01:19:52.750
the enjoyment I think is, I think is what I get

01:19:52.750 --> 01:19:55.670
from it. And it just feels so personal again.

01:19:55.729 --> 01:19:59.149
So it's that kind of intimate thing of really

01:19:59.149 --> 01:20:02.329
poking at someone's insecurity is really, really

01:20:02.329 --> 01:20:06.090
quite intimate in a fucked up kind of way. So

01:20:06.090 --> 01:20:08.619
I really kind of really enjoy. really enjoy that

01:20:08.619 --> 01:20:12.359
it's a demonstration of trust as well that that

01:20:12.359 --> 01:20:14.640
is something that you will allow me to do yeah

01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:17.779
i need to i think particularly for the body shaming

01:20:17.779 --> 01:20:19.720
stuff need to feel really secure and knowing

01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:22.859
that that's not how you see me yeah um the amount

01:20:22.859 --> 01:20:24.779
of reassurance you've given me when i have been

01:20:24.779 --> 01:20:27.579
struggling with body image issues in the past

01:20:27.579 --> 01:20:32.670
um the way that that you express desire and attraction

01:20:32.670 --> 01:20:34.989
and admiration for a lot of different body types

01:20:34.989 --> 01:20:37.609
is really good for me as well. You have a very

01:20:37.609 --> 01:20:41.229
broad type and it's not all stick -thin people

01:20:41.229 --> 01:20:44.630
in their early 20s. So that's really reassuring

01:20:44.630 --> 01:20:47.390
to me. And I think I would struggle to do this

01:20:47.390 --> 01:20:50.649
kind of play with someone if I thought that it

01:20:50.649 --> 01:20:53.869
was very real to them. And that's something that

01:20:53.869 --> 01:20:56.449
varies a lot between different masochists. Like

01:20:56.449 --> 01:20:59.090
for me... a lot of this stuff. It's not that

01:20:59.090 --> 01:21:00.829
I want it to be completely divorced from reality,

01:21:01.029 --> 01:21:02.970
it needs to be picking at, like, real insecurities,

01:21:02.970 --> 01:21:06.109
real trauma, real fears, all of that stuff. But

01:21:06.109 --> 01:21:08.689
I need there to be a sort of safety bubble around

01:21:08.689 --> 01:21:10.550
that, of knowing that the person I'm doing it

01:21:10.550 --> 01:21:13.390
with doesn't see me in those ways, doesn't reduce

01:21:13.390 --> 01:21:15.829
me down to those things. And I know sometimes

01:21:15.829 --> 01:21:17.869
people pursue this stuff because they actually

01:21:17.869 --> 01:21:20.029
want it to feel quite real, they want to actually

01:21:20.029 --> 01:21:21.750
hear, like, the worst thoughts that their partner

01:21:21.750 --> 01:21:24.670
has ever had about them. and meant and that's

01:21:24.670 --> 01:21:27.109
completely valid but that's not for me like that's

01:21:27.109 --> 01:21:30.050
we talk about having a hard time finding my limits

01:21:30.050 --> 01:21:32.829
i think that would be it that would be too far

01:21:32.829 --> 01:21:36.489
for me yeah it is play it is about taking the

01:21:36.489 --> 01:21:39.109
stuff that is very real to me and very not real

01:21:39.109 --> 01:21:41.850
to you yeah and playing in that space where we

01:21:41.850 --> 01:21:45.710
we blur those lines but not in a way that i ever

01:21:45.710 --> 01:21:49.510
fully believe yeah yeah you kind of come out

01:21:49.510 --> 01:21:52.520
of it yeah and we're back to normal Yeah. I think

01:21:52.520 --> 01:21:55.039
for me as well, like knowing that it's fake doesn't

01:21:55.039 --> 01:21:57.239
reduce the impact in the moment. I had a few

01:21:57.239 --> 01:21:59.140
people ask about that when we released the episode

01:21:59.140 --> 01:22:00.960
about our interrogation scene where you did like

01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:03.079
the fake breakup with me partway through. Yes.

01:22:03.680 --> 01:22:05.460
People saying like, but you knew that you weren't

01:22:05.460 --> 01:22:08.899
actually breaking up. Yeah. Obviously, like no

01:22:08.899 --> 01:22:12.659
even slightly sane person would end their relationship

01:22:12.659 --> 01:22:14.779
halfway through the most intense BDSM they'd

01:22:14.779 --> 01:22:17.579
ever done. So yeah, like I knew it was fake.

01:22:17.659 --> 01:22:19.220
Obviously, you knew it was fake because you were

01:22:19.220 --> 01:22:21.750
the one doing it. But it doesn't make it any

01:22:21.750 --> 01:22:23.930
less real in the moment for me because the emotions

01:22:23.930 --> 01:22:27.010
are real. The fear is tapping into a real. So

01:22:27.010 --> 01:22:29.529
I knew that you weren't actually ending our relationship

01:22:29.529 --> 01:22:33.029
then. But you were acting in a way that I can

01:22:33.029 --> 01:22:34.829
reasonably assume you might if you were breaking

01:22:34.829 --> 01:22:37.829
up with me. Yeah. It's not like it was completely

01:22:37.829 --> 01:22:40.949
unbelievable. Yeah. And the emotions that you

01:22:40.949 --> 01:22:42.909
were displaying and the things that you were

01:22:42.909 --> 01:22:44.630
saying triggered the real emotional reaction

01:22:44.630 --> 01:22:46.880
in me. yeah yeah it's like if you watch a sad

01:22:46.880 --> 01:22:48.800
movie like we know that they're fake people but

01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:50.399
you're still getting upset about them they're

01:22:50.399 --> 01:22:53.800
not actually great yeah yeah um and the oscar

01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:59.899
for achievement in sadism goes to sugar absolutely

01:22:59.899 --> 01:23:04.079
it would it would you're so good at it um so

01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:07.060
yeah it's the it's it's almost like i'm existing

01:23:07.060 --> 01:23:10.170
in two two realities when we're in the middle

01:23:10.170 --> 01:23:12.529
of an intense scene with any of this kind of

01:23:12.529 --> 01:23:14.289
stuff, any kind of psychological play. There's

01:23:14.289 --> 01:23:16.909
the reality that I know that I'm in, where you're

01:23:16.909 --> 01:23:18.829
saying things that you don't mean, or you're

01:23:18.829 --> 01:23:22.229
heightening things, or you are creating an atmosphere,

01:23:22.369 --> 01:23:24.770
or role -playing to an extent. We're not necessarily

01:23:24.770 --> 01:23:27.090
big role -players, but there's like fake elements

01:23:27.090 --> 01:23:29.590
brought in. There's the part of me that knows

01:23:29.590 --> 01:23:31.430
that all of that's true, but then there's the

01:23:31.430 --> 01:23:33.649
part of me that is the character in the movie.

01:23:34.149 --> 01:23:37.170
Yeah. So it's fake, but I'm in it. Yeah, yeah.

01:23:37.710 --> 01:23:39.710
Yeah, and I think that's what I find fascinating

01:23:39.710 --> 01:23:44.510
about this kind of play, is one of the biggest

01:23:44.510 --> 01:23:47.350
worries I had at the start, when we started talking

01:23:47.350 --> 01:23:50.369
about kind of using your insecurities and traumatic

01:23:50.369 --> 01:23:53.250
experiences and things like that as part of play,

01:23:53.510 --> 01:23:57.270
was it required me to say things that, A, I don't

01:23:57.270 --> 01:24:01.449
believe, and B, that you just don't say to someone

01:24:01.449 --> 01:24:04.270
that you care about. Yeah. You don't grab a hold

01:24:04.270 --> 01:24:05.829
of someone's stomach and call them a fat fuck.

01:24:06.489 --> 01:24:10.390
You don't write gender -based slurs all over

01:24:10.390 --> 01:24:14.189
their body while you call them a failure of a

01:24:14.189 --> 01:24:16.829
person. You know, you just don't do that. Yeah.

01:24:16.930 --> 01:24:20.130
But also because it's not true. I was like, well,

01:24:20.189 --> 01:24:23.149
why would I, would I cause myself the upset of

01:24:23.149 --> 01:24:26.289
saying something that I don't, I and you don't

01:24:26.289 --> 01:24:30.229
believe I believe? How is that going to work?

01:24:30.789 --> 01:24:34.609
But actually when we started experimenting on

01:24:34.609 --> 01:24:37.619
it. the genuineness of your responses to it kind

01:24:37.619 --> 01:24:40.699
of took me took me a little bit by surprise and

01:24:40.699 --> 01:24:42.560
that in itself was quite difficult to deal with

01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:46.859
at first you know oh shit i've actually i've

01:24:46.859 --> 01:24:50.340
actually upset them yeah um yeah that's the point

01:24:50.340 --> 01:24:57.819
yeah do it harder yeah yeah um so it's yeah it's

01:24:57.819 --> 01:25:01.470
it's a fascinating psychology to me that you

01:25:01.470 --> 01:25:03.409
can kind of hold both of those things in your

01:25:03.409 --> 01:25:05.590
head and for them both to be true in that moment

01:25:05.590 --> 01:25:08.069
yeah you've got the confidence of knowing that

01:25:08.069 --> 01:25:10.670
i don't actually mean it but you've got the very

01:25:10.670 --> 01:25:14.630
visceral reaction of what is happening yeah and

01:25:14.630 --> 01:25:17.069
they're both true we should get a psychologist

01:25:17.069 --> 01:25:20.609
on to just investigate us oh jesus god no we

01:25:20.609 --> 01:25:29.409
would end up in an institution no this has been

01:25:29.409 --> 01:25:32.090
loads of fun to talk about and we've we've said

01:25:32.090 --> 01:25:34.630
a lot of stuff yes we have So I'm just going

01:25:34.630 --> 01:25:37.069
to repeat the recommendation to, if this is a

01:25:37.069 --> 01:25:38.869
kind of thing that you want to explore, or if

01:25:38.869 --> 01:25:40.609
you just want to hear more from someone who does

01:25:40.609 --> 01:25:44.569
a lot of emotional masochism, check out Vahavta,

01:25:44.689 --> 01:25:46.710
who I'm going to link in the description. Meg's

01:25:46.710 --> 01:25:48.310
also mentioned Ancilla L, who we've mentioned

01:25:48.310 --> 01:25:50.810
on the podcast before, another really good resource

01:25:50.810 --> 01:25:53.649
for this kind of stuff. And just to bear in mind

01:25:53.649 --> 01:25:55.250
as well, if you came into this being like, oh,

01:25:55.289 --> 01:25:57.130
I want to learn a little bit about light, degradation,

01:25:57.409 --> 01:25:59.930
humiliation, and then you've come into... just

01:25:59.930 --> 01:26:01.670
the most deranged shit you've ever heard in your

01:26:01.670 --> 01:26:03.890
life this is not the level you have to play at

01:26:03.890 --> 01:26:06.590
this is the level we play at because this is

01:26:06.590 --> 01:26:08.550
what we like there's a lot of ways that this

01:26:08.550 --> 01:26:10.609
can be done in a little bit more of a light -hearted

01:26:10.609 --> 01:26:12.649
playful way and hopefully some of the stuff we

01:26:12.649 --> 01:26:14.250
talked about about that side of our relationship

01:26:14.250 --> 01:26:17.909
has been more useful yes and i think we kind

01:26:17.909 --> 01:26:20.949
of really think through no matter which end that

01:26:20.949 --> 01:26:22.789
you want to aim for kind of really think it through

01:26:22.789 --> 01:26:25.310
yeah this stuff can hit harder than you expect

01:26:25.310 --> 01:26:27.869
even if you think that you're starting at a light

01:26:27.869 --> 01:26:30.149
end like playing with feelings is a lot less

01:26:30.149 --> 01:26:32.890
predictable than playing with bodies yeah which

01:26:32.890 --> 01:26:35.229
is a really good way to end the episode it is

01:26:35.229 --> 01:26:38.069
isn't it very wise of me yes thanks everyone

01:26:38.069 --> 01:27:01.420
for listening bye See you next time.