WEBVTT 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:02.379 Off to a great start, I've just drooled wine 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.040 all over myself. Awesome. Extremely professional. 00:00:05.580 --> 00:00:07.459 Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast 00:00:07.459 --> 00:00:10.380 where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel, 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:12.980 a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who 00:00:12.980 --> 00:00:16.179 likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And 00:00:16.179 --> 00:00:18.339 I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver 00:00:18.339 --> 00:00:20.480 all of the above. And today we have a guest. 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:22.620 Ariel Anderson is here to talk to us about sex 00:00:22.620 --> 00:00:25.519 work, trauma, kink and lots of other things you 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:48.479 know how we like to divert. Woohoo! So welcome, 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.219 Ariel. Thank you very much for having me. I love 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:52.759 when we have a guest and you immediately see 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:54.880 the fear as soon as the recording actually starts. 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.740 It's like one minute intro. It goes from completely 00:00:57.740 --> 00:01:00.780 chill to, oh, fuck, it's happening. I think I 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:03.799 have a special voice. Same. Yeah. 100 % got a 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:05.700 podcast voice. And I don't know what you're meant 00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:08.799 to do about that. I think it's just innate. Can't 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:10.920 help it. I have a podcast voice and I have a 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:12.420 TikTok voice and they're not the same voice. 00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:15.159 They're not the same. I think my TikTok voice 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.379 might be my customer service voice. Oh, I have 00:01:19.379 --> 00:01:23.879 a voice like a sex voice and a YouTube voice. 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:29.739 Have you figured out which your podcast voice 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:32.400 is yet? No, I think I might have to do a little 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:37.719 bit of both. My sex voice is very slow. So this 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.500 is a four hour episode, you know. It's because 00:01:40.500 --> 00:01:44.459 of the sex voice. So do you want to introduce 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:47.340 yourself, let us know who you are, as if we already 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:51.420 know. Thank you. I'm Ariel Anderson. I am a BDSM 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:55.200 performer. I specialise in submissive work and 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.500 I've been doing it 23 years, which makes me basically 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:03.700 like the grandmother of BDSM models. And although... 00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:07.310 I do BDSM primarily because that's my kink. I 00:02:07.310 --> 00:02:09.949 do do a lot of other kinks because I'm hired 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:14.550 to do them. And until probably maybe seven or 00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:16.669 eight years ago, I probably wouldn't have really 00:02:16.669 --> 00:02:19.229 called myself a sex worker because all my work 00:02:19.229 --> 00:02:21.330 was photographic modelling and that kind of sits 00:02:21.330 --> 00:02:24.979 in a... sort of grey area between, you know, 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.939 is it sex work or not? Sometimes it feels like 00:02:26.939 --> 00:02:29.560 it is, sometimes it feels like it isn't. But 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:31.680 in the last seven or eight years, I've been doing 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.319 a lot more privately commissioned work for specific 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.759 customers who can't find porn that matches their 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:40.479 interests. And so I'm working much more directly 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:42.300 with people, giving them a sexual experience, 00:02:42.419 --> 00:02:45.520 although it's on video. So these days, I would 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:47.960 very squarely describe myself as a sex worker. 00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:50.680 And I guess in the time I've been doing it, the 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:54.300 term sex worker has kind of expanded to encompass 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:57.159 a lot more different kinds of jobs. So these 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.199 days, I feel really happy and quite proud of 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.699 being that. But if I tell people I'm a sex worker, 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.620 they often still think that that means I'm an 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:08.000 escort. And then I have to tell them they can't 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.159 hire me. It definitely has got broader over the 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:14.740 last few years. Because I used to be a sex worker, 00:03:14.819 --> 00:03:16.520 and I remember when I first started sex work, 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.740 almost no one used that term. It was almost like 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.659 the very politically correct term that you used 00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:23.080 if you were trying really hard not to offend, 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.379 but no sex workers I knew used it. No. Yeah, 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:30.180 and I sometimes wonder what escorts would think 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:32.699 of someone who's in such a kind of gentrified 00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:34.979 aspect of it, where there's no danger, I'm not 00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:38.009 meeting real people, any of that. um photographers 00:03:38.009 --> 00:03:44.189 aren't real people no absolutely not um because 00:03:44.189 --> 00:03:46.110 i sometimes think i would describe myself as 00:03:46.110 --> 00:03:48.349 a porn star but then i sometimes think would 00:03:48.349 --> 00:03:50.830 a hardcore porn star just be like oh for fuck's 00:03:50.830 --> 00:03:54.289 sake you amateur like get out um like you are 00:03:54.289 --> 00:03:57.069 not a porn star but but i feel like we share 00:03:57.069 --> 00:04:00.909 the stigma so it feels kind of stronger to to 00:04:00.909 --> 00:04:03.310 all be together and and say we're the same thing 00:04:03.310 --> 00:04:05.580 and we've you've Told us lots of things about 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:07.360 you, but not told people the thing that they 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:08.819 will probably be really interested in is that 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:12.199 you're also my sister. I was wondering if we 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.360 had just decided not to mention that. We're just 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:15.819 not going to acknowledge it. Both of you have 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:18.459 been talking. I was like, there's something missing 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:21.579 here. Well, yes, I did notice we're sitting in 00:04:21.579 --> 00:04:24.639 exactly the same way, actually. Yes. See, I always 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:26.500 call this sitting bisexually, but you're straight. 00:04:26.620 --> 00:04:29.600 So yeah, it's genetic. Yeah, I think it is. I 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.120 think it is. Maybe you're sitting sex workily. 00:04:32.490 --> 00:04:35.529 Ah, and that's why you're not sitting the same 00:04:35.529 --> 00:04:38.110 way because you have not joined that club. I 00:04:38.110 --> 00:04:43.230 wonder if people will hear any similarity in 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:46.149 our voices. I went out of my way to trash the 00:04:46.149 --> 00:04:48.910 accent, so probably not. And I went to drama 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:51.589 school, so I've got an accent that isn't really 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:54.170 from our childhood. Yeah, yours is definitely 00:04:54.170 --> 00:04:58.129 up a couple levels. But I wonder if maybe tone 00:04:58.129 --> 00:04:59.970 -wise or inflection or something, I wonder if 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:02.189 people would spot that, you know, beyond the 00:05:02.189 --> 00:05:04.389 superficial kind of accent thing. I think we 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:06.350 look more alike than sound alike. I just look 00:05:06.350 --> 00:05:07.990 like the version of you that has had a really 00:05:07.990 --> 00:05:13.089 rough paper round. No! You look like you've lived 00:05:13.089 --> 00:05:15.930 more bravely. I don't have, like, facial tattoos. 00:05:22.449 --> 00:05:25.689 I am fascinated now by what your actual accent 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:28.069 is because I assumed that this is what it was 00:05:28.069 --> 00:05:29.930 for both of you, to be fair. I assumed that's 00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:31.389 just the accent that you grew up with because 00:05:31.389 --> 00:05:35.810 you both sound quite posh. Yeah, so, like, I 00:05:35.810 --> 00:05:37.529 don't know how to explain it because it's not 00:05:37.529 --> 00:05:40.930 quite like either of ours. Ariel's voice is definitely, 00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:43.029 like... more polished because of having gone 00:05:43.029 --> 00:05:44.569 to drama school and the stuff that they learn 00:05:44.569 --> 00:05:47.750 and then i've i've kind of deliberately tried 00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:49.410 to pick up the accents of everyone i've associated 00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:51.829 with that wasn't my family so we've both moved 00:05:51.829 --> 00:05:54.610 away from the the center yeah and also i grew 00:05:54.610 --> 00:05:57.029 up exclusively in the south of england and you 00:05:57.029 --> 00:06:00.009 grew up for like 10 years in the south and then 00:06:00.009 --> 00:06:02.629 i guess you must have been like 10 or 11 so yorkshire 00:06:02.629 --> 00:06:07.050 so so there's also that yeah your peers I mean, 00:06:07.050 --> 00:06:09.250 you moved around so much, your peers were from 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:11.670 all over the place, but you had more of an influence 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:14.810 from Yorkshire than certainly I did. Yeah, I 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:17.129 would say like our parents both sound fairly 00:06:17.129 --> 00:06:20.389 sort of like middle class Southern England. Like 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:23.610 not like super, super posh BBC English, but not 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:26.589 a million miles off. No. You learn something 00:06:26.589 --> 00:06:29.240 new every time. I didn't know whether we were 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:31.439 going to reference being siblings. So this is 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:35.079 very nice. We did discuss this. I totally am 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.600 sure. I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You can cut it if 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:38.779 you don't want to. No, no, no, no, no. Because 00:06:38.779 --> 00:06:41.779 you asked me what things we could talk about. 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.660 You've done very good consent stuff. But I wasn't 00:06:44.660 --> 00:06:46.660 sure if you were going to bring it up or not. 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.959 So this is really cool. Because it means that 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.379 actually we were out of touch with each other 00:06:53.379 --> 00:06:56.790 for like... 10 or 12 maybe even 13 years yeah 00:06:56.790 --> 00:07:01.910 and in that time you became kinky and so now 00:07:01.910 --> 00:07:03.990 we're back in touch with each other and we're 00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:08.360 in this probably very unusual situation where 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:11.759 we're both submissive like submissive masochists 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.620 is that yeah so that's how i describe myself 00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:18.000 um and we're from the same family but it's not 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:20.540 like we went and explored this together we weren't 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:23.180 like oh let's let's go and hang out at a kink 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:25.540 club together like we we did this in isolation 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:29.000 and now we discover we've got a lot of interests 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:33.040 in common and it's i'm not sure many people have 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:35.100 that experience and even if that is something 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:37.240 that's going on a lot of them wouldn't talk about 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.319 it so i think that's the big difference yeah 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.339 because i know a few people in our local kink 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:44.680 community who have a relative that's also in 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:46.579 the local kink community okay and it has tended 00:07:46.579 --> 00:07:48.579 to be they found it independently of each other 00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:50.540 because they didn't want to talk to each other 00:07:50.540 --> 00:07:52.500 sure yeah and they end up running into each other 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:54.560 at lunch at some point it's like ah fuck and 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:56.720 then they have to address it super duper where 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.720 for us the Figuring it out without talking to 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:01.279 each other was because we weren't talking to 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.480 each other at all. Yeah. Not because we don't 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:05.060 talk about kink. No, no, no. As soon as we start 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:06.800 talking to each other, that's all we talk about. 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.959 Yes, totally. I remember our first dinner together 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:12.519 was like... But it is... I don't know how you 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:15.959 feel, but I'm kind of glad that you're not in 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.279 the industry. So I'm never going to turn up to 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.339 a BDSM shoot and you're the other sub. Yeah. 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.040 Because that could be weird. And I don't go to 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.040 clubs and events like you do. So... you're never 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:30.839 just gonna suddenly see me being like flogged 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:32.740 in the middle of the club and yeah maybe that 00:08:32.740 --> 00:08:34.559 might be nice for you though when i was really 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:36.679 new to kink i was chatting to some friends and 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:38.120 i was like i'm starting to explore some kinky 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:39.840 stuff and i'm figuring some stuff out about myself 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:41.320 and all that they're like there's this really 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.799 great documentary on channel four um with alice 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.879 levine oh Oh, oh, yes. Yes. And that was me. 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:52.139 Yeah. About five minutes into the first episode 00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:53.539 of it, I think it was like a little mini series. 00:08:53.620 --> 00:08:57.320 No. Being tied up. And I was like, oh, I know 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:03.240 her. That's very odd. But I think on balance, 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:05.600 we run into each other less than we could. And 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.340 I think like that's probably comfortable. I love 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:10.799 knowing all the things you're doing. I'm not 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:14.149 sure how I'd cope. If I suddenly saw, especially 00:09:14.149 --> 00:09:17.190 because you do some pretty extreme stuff. I'm 00:09:17.190 --> 00:09:19.490 not sure how I cope with that if I was on a night 00:09:19.490 --> 00:09:24.350 out. I think that's fair. Yeah. One of the last 00:09:24.350 --> 00:09:26.330 events we were at, I was like getting waterboarded 00:09:26.330 --> 00:09:27.850 in the bathtub while all the people from the 00:09:27.850 --> 00:09:29.809 event came piling in to have a look. I think 00:09:29.809 --> 00:09:33.590 you might have been a bit like, what's the normal 00:09:33.590 --> 00:09:35.950 social thing to do in this situation? Sibling 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:39.750 rivalry. Is that all you can say? Oh, just imagine 00:09:39.750 --> 00:09:42.500 that. Yes, that would be awful. That would be 00:09:42.500 --> 00:09:45.759 awful. Yeah, I think, like, because I feel like 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:47.340 we're both quite competitive people as well, 00:09:47.379 --> 00:09:49.960 I think that would cause problems and wouldn't 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.179 be very rack of us at all. I try really hard 00:09:53.179 --> 00:09:56.139 not to be competitive because I know being competitive 00:09:56.139 --> 00:09:59.019 comes from being insecure and I'm trying really 00:09:59.019 --> 00:10:01.480 hard not to be insecure. So, yeah, I don't want 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:03.120 to compete with you about waterboarding. That 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:09.929 would be awful. And I think you might win. So, 00:10:09.950 --> 00:10:11.110 yeah, I suppose one of the things that we're 00:10:11.110 --> 00:10:13.389 always interested in, and it is not the question 00:10:13.389 --> 00:10:16.009 that I would ever have expected to ask my partner's 00:10:16.009 --> 00:10:18.549 sibling, but really interested about kind of 00:10:18.549 --> 00:10:21.470 how your kink identity developed, how you discovered 00:10:21.470 --> 00:10:23.730 it, how it's kind of developed over the years. 00:10:24.429 --> 00:10:27.909 So I grew up in a Jehovah's Witness family. You 00:10:27.909 --> 00:10:30.429 did not grow up as a Jehovah's Witness because 00:10:30.429 --> 00:10:33.029 you're 13 years younger than me. But I grew up 00:10:33.029 --> 00:10:37.039 as a Jehovah's Witness. And so I had fairly limited 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.600 exposure to kind of the outside world. So we 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.820 did have books, but they were pretty old fashioned 00:10:42.820 --> 00:10:45.720 books. We didn't have a TV. We didn't get to 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:47.899 listen to pop music. I was rather divorced from 00:10:47.899 --> 00:10:51.559 pop culture. And nevertheless, from my earliest 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:55.309 memories, any stories. where someone got tied 00:10:55.309 --> 00:10:58.070 up or captured or victimized in any way i just 00:10:58.070 --> 00:11:00.549 thought they were amazing so my first crush was 00:11:00.549 --> 00:11:04.809 captain hook just what a charm same okay yeah 00:11:04.809 --> 00:11:08.570 amazing and like i didn't have access to a whole 00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:10.250 load of stuff so you know a lot of people my 00:11:10.250 --> 00:11:14.990 age would reference um the avengers or stuff 00:11:14.990 --> 00:11:16.710 yeah stuff they'd seen on tv and i didn't have 00:11:16.710 --> 00:11:19.610 that but nevertheless there was clearly always 00:11:19.610 --> 00:11:22.429 this interest in people getting tied up or punished. 00:11:22.450 --> 00:11:24.750 That was what I liked. And so I'd read those 00:11:24.750 --> 00:11:27.590 bits of books over and over again. And we didn't 00:11:27.590 --> 00:11:29.450 own all of these books. So I used to go to the 00:11:29.450 --> 00:11:31.389 bookshop, the local bookshop, and read those 00:11:31.389 --> 00:11:34.629 bits. But it didn't occur to me because the Jehovah's 00:11:34.629 --> 00:11:37.330 Witnesses are a very sexually conservative religion, 00:11:37.409 --> 00:11:41.389 as a lot of religions are. So I wasn't aware 00:11:41.389 --> 00:11:44.059 that this could... be the beginning of my sexuality 00:11:44.059 --> 00:11:46.120 i just thought it was a kind of weird hobby i 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.220 had like reading about people being spanked um 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:53.879 and then i realized really suddenly when i was 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:59.600 16 that this was actually a sexual thing um and 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:02.639 i was just absolutely horrified i thought i mean 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:04.899 i thought i should kill myself honestly because 00:12:04.899 --> 00:12:07.919 i hadn't got any framework for kind of accepting 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:10.240 this new interesting thing i found out about 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.639 myself all i could see it as was sin so i just 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:16.399 tried to suppress it i became like a very angry 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:19.620 feminist because that felt like the furthest 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:22.600 i could get from all the things i wanted to do 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:24.779 sexually and it was it seemed like a good way 00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:27.080 of hiding behind it because then i could talk 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:28.919 quite a lot about awful things happening to women 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:31.980 um Because I was really passionately against 00:12:31.980 --> 00:12:34.100 it. So I joined the campaign against pornography 00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:38.240 that was all about how women are degraded in 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:39.960 pornography. I'd never seen any pornography, 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:42.480 but I was just like, oh, this is awful. I was 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.820 very angry about that, but also sort of sadly 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:49.360 thinking, oh gosh, that sounds amazing, but it's 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.899 sin. So I was quite mixed up and I didn't tell 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:55.759 anyone about it because I just assumed that if 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:59.399 I told anyone, they would be like... How disgusting 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:03.600 you are. So I think I might have carried on like 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:07.080 that indefinitely, except that I started modelling 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.519 when I was 25 and a photographer invited me to 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:14.120 an exhibition and it turned out to be a BDSM 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:18.340 exhibition. And I saw all these paintings and 00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:20.480 photographs of people doing all the stuff that 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:23.750 I fantasised about. And it was such a... Such 00:13:23.750 --> 00:13:26.129 an amazing kind of epiphany, because it's not 00:13:26.129 --> 00:13:28.370 like I stumbled across something really seedy. 00:13:28.429 --> 00:13:31.389 It wasn't even very extreme, but it was presented 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.850 like it was beautiful, like it was art, like 00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:36.909 it was a legitimate sexuality. And that was the 00:13:36.909 --> 00:13:38.870 beginning of me being able to start coming to 00:13:38.870 --> 00:13:41.509 terms with what my sexual identity was, meeting 00:13:41.509 --> 00:13:44.370 people, so having a community, and starting to 00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:49.840 do BDSM work. So, I mean, looking back... I think 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:53.000 what a weird response to finding that I wasn't 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:56.720 alone in the world with my kink. Because it just 00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.080 seemed like the thing to do then is to be in 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.340 these photographs and pictures. Whereas I think 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:03.679 someone else might have thought, I'll maybe go 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.440 and explore this in private. It just didn't occur 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.000 to me that that was a thing. And I think maybe 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:14.059 looking back, it's because of our shared experiences 00:14:14.059 --> 00:14:17.570 as children. I was very, very bad at setting 00:14:17.570 --> 00:14:19.990 boundaries. I mean, I basically hadn't got a 00:14:19.990 --> 00:14:22.929 clue how to do that. So I suppose that going 00:14:22.929 --> 00:14:25.929 and doing BDSM at photo shoots felt like a much 00:14:25.929 --> 00:14:28.690 safer thing to do because people's expectations 00:14:28.690 --> 00:14:31.490 when you go and do a bondage shoot are not that 00:14:31.490 --> 00:14:33.210 you're going to have sex with the photographer. 00:14:33.210 --> 00:14:35.110 That's not what people would generally... Not 00:14:35.110 --> 00:14:39.570 if it's a good photographer, anyway. So maybe 00:14:39.570 --> 00:14:42.470 I was somewhat safer in a kind of controlled 00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:44.370 environment where people wouldn't necessarily 00:14:44.370 --> 00:14:46.009 have an expectation of having a relationship 00:14:46.009 --> 00:14:48.070 with me. It did mean that I got to go around 00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:50.769 the world working with people who were broadly 00:14:50.769 --> 00:14:54.250 speaking competent. And I got to sample a lot 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:59.210 of different BDSM. And now... I'm 48 now, I can 00:14:59.210 --> 00:15:01.610 look back at my earliest BDSM experiences and 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:03.490 they're on camera, which is actually kind of 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:06.929 lovely because for me, subspace kind of wipes 00:15:06.929 --> 00:15:11.610 my memory. So having records of my early experiences 00:15:11.610 --> 00:15:14.950 are kind of lovely. And it's one of the reasons 00:15:14.950 --> 00:15:17.570 I've carried on doing it because I like it that 00:15:17.570 --> 00:15:20.070 other people get to watch my work, but I like 00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:22.779 to have a record of it myself. I don't know if 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:24.500 you relate to that at all, the idea of having 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:29.659 a record. Yeah, I've not done BDSM in a professional 00:15:29.659 --> 00:15:32.559 way, but the phone is always out. I have a lot 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:34.639 of pictures. We take a lot of pictures. It's 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.500 really special. And I understand if you're very 00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:39.779 physically self -conscious, it might not be something 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:43.000 that you'd enjoy. But I just love that. And I've 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.740 also realised another reason that I still do 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:48.559 my job is there's less necessity for it probably 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:52.629 now, but I will always remember. being 16 and 00:15:52.629 --> 00:15:56.009 how lonely i felt and how i just thought it was 00:15:56.009 --> 00:15:59.429 me in the world with this awful kind of sexual 00:15:59.429 --> 00:16:02.289 identity that made me kind of deviant and sort 00:16:02.289 --> 00:16:05.230 of disgusting and the idea of putting work into 00:16:05.230 --> 00:16:08.710 the world that future generations of 18 year 00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:11.789 olds will see yeah and and realize they're not 00:16:11.789 --> 00:16:14.289 alone i mean hopefully they won't these days 00:16:14.289 --> 00:16:15.929 because they've got the internet but just in 00:16:15.929 --> 00:16:18.529 case they are i i hope that there is lots of 00:16:18.529 --> 00:16:21.960 work they can find that shows them artistic representations 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.700 of what they're into because for me at least 00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:27.539 that's been immensely powerful in making me feel 00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:31.700 like i'm okay and my sexuality is okay yeah it 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:34.100 is dead interesting that that's having that discovery 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:38.879 through a professional um angle going okay well 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:40.659 this is this is the work that i'm doing oh there's 00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:44.019 this really interesting exciting aspect to that 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:46.240 work that i can do and it kind of builds up built 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.000 up that way yeah i've realized as time's gone 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.350 on that that was not a particularly typical thing 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:54.409 to do no but i still think if you don't mind 00:16:54.409 --> 00:16:57.909 being on camera and you've got no issues with 00:16:57.909 --> 00:17:01.429 privacy it is a decent way to get started yeah 00:17:01.429 --> 00:17:04.890 i imagine it's a lot easier to vet because everyone's 00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:07.109 so public about what they're doing like you've 00:17:07.109 --> 00:17:08.690 got if you look at a photographer's portfolio 00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:11.470 you'll see every submissive that that he's shot 00:17:11.470 --> 00:17:13.829 and then you can ask them yeah totally and i 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:17.059 think maybe these days if people are doing this 00:17:17.059 --> 00:17:20.039 stuff via FetLife, maybe you can do similar. 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:23.420 Yeah. Possibly. But yeah, certainly when I started 00:17:23.420 --> 00:17:27.039 doing BDSM, I guess my options would have been 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.720 either do it professionally like I did or kind 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.660 of go to a club and hope I meet nice people. 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.039 Yeah. I'm not sure what the other options would 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.359 really have been in 2003. No, because I was going 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.339 to say, because I'm a couple of years younger 00:17:42.339 --> 00:17:45.900 than you, and the internet was a thing. But it 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:50.480 wasn't what it is now. Those online communities 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.980 didn't exist. It was quite hard to find anything 00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.240 on early 2000s internet, wasn't it? So that kind 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.420 of outlet wasn't there for you. And I feel like, 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:03.920 I mean, there are incompetent bondage producers, 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:08.480 of course, but compared to just meeting a random 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.140 man who says he's a dominant and letting him 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:14.460 tie you up, I think maybe I was somewhat safer. 00:18:14.809 --> 00:18:19.430 To some extent. Yeah. Yeah. How did you make 00:18:19.430 --> 00:18:22.769 that transition then into doing it as a job and 00:18:22.769 --> 00:18:27.730 into doing it for fun? Yeah. Yeah. That actually 00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:30.950 took me a while because when I started bondage 00:18:30.950 --> 00:18:32.849 modelling, I was in a relationship with someone 00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:37.569 who wasn't kinky. So I thought at the time, well, 00:18:37.589 --> 00:18:39.750 probably the best I can do, you know, I'm not 00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:41.930 going to break up with him because I got all 00:18:41.930 --> 00:18:44.230 these ideas about religion and monogamy. And 00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:46.210 like, once you've had sex with one person, that's 00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:49.500 who you have to stay with. So I didn't see. that 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:51.440 I'd have an opportunity to do it personally. 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:53.839 So I thought, I guess I'll just be happy with 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:55.799 doing it professionally. I mean, that's still 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.960 a fantastic result compared to what I was expecting, 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.220 which was to be alone forever with my kink. And 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:06.880 so I was somewhat satisfied by that. But then 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.980 when he and I broke up, I realised I do have 00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:14.539 an opportunity now to... maybe prioritize finding 00:19:14.539 --> 00:19:16.960 someone who's actually sexually compatible with 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:21.299 me um so i'd been modeling like three or four 00:19:21.299 --> 00:19:25.319 years by the time i actually did any bdsm in 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.799 my personal life just for me and the person i 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.720 was doing it with um and it was it was fantastic 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:35.519 because because at the time i'd got quite a lot 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.059 of rules about what i wouldn't do on camera like 00:19:38.059 --> 00:19:41.650 i didn't want to have sex on camera um for example 00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:43.930 and so there was a whole load of stuff that had 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:48.289 just been kind of not available to me because 00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:51.930 of my own rules i'd set and suddenly to be able 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:54.190 to actually have a fully sexual relationship 00:19:54.190 --> 00:19:56.250 with all the bdsm elements i was interested in 00:19:56.250 --> 00:20:03.230 it was like amazing so i married him find find 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:08.450 one that works like i'm keeping that one when 00:20:08.450 --> 00:20:12.549 was that 25 yeah so i mean old really compared 00:20:12.549 --> 00:20:17.289 to what the same person might do now and for 00:20:17.289 --> 00:20:19.250 like a sort of figuring out of your sexuality 00:20:19.250 --> 00:20:22.029 in general that is it's a big gap from puberty 00:20:22.029 --> 00:20:24.630 to there really really for most people but between 00:20:24.630 --> 00:20:26.329 figuring out what you want to do sexually and 00:20:26.329 --> 00:20:28.750 getting to do it is is generally quite short 00:20:28.750 --> 00:20:31.730 if what you want is vanilla and i think especially 00:20:31.730 --> 00:20:34.650 for those of us who had fantasies of the this 00:20:34.650 --> 00:20:36.990 nature from kind of early childhood which i know 00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:41.009 the same yeah you it it feels like god i like 00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.349 quarter of a century from fancying captain hook 00:20:44.349 --> 00:20:47.240 to actually like doing any of this stuff and 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:49.099 I was really interested when we got back in touch 00:20:49.099 --> 00:20:51.339 with each other that actually you had not been 00:20:51.339 --> 00:20:54.359 particularly quick off the mark yeah with actually 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.140 doing this stuff either yeah I briefly dabbled 00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:59.559 when I was 16 and kind of scared myself off and 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:03.339 then didn't again until I was 31 so late which 00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:06.180 again seems especially given that clearly this 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:09.799 is a really big important part of your life I 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:11.660 kind of look back at my life and think how did 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:14.279 I manage like do you think that definitely yeah 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.519 I was just really unhappy most of the time yeah 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:18.960 but i know there was there was some areas because 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:20.819 of your acting and modeling work you did find 00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:23.039 some outlets for it even yes didn't you what 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:27.059 what did you what did you do so so well as an 00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:30.079 actor i got to play quite a lot of roles where 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.339 i was something of a victim because if you look 00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:35.960 like a woman and you're young in mainstream acting 00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:39.150 Like you get cast as a victim a lot, whether 00:21:39.150 --> 00:21:40.789 or not you want that. Like, I mean, I played 00:21:40.789 --> 00:21:44.789 a dead body quite a lot. This is just what happens 00:21:44.789 --> 00:21:46.910 when you've just graduated drama school and you 00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:50.109 look like a young woman. So I did a lot of roles 00:21:50.109 --> 00:21:52.650 that involved stage fight. I took that quite 00:21:52.650 --> 00:21:54.789 seriously at drama school. So I was very, and 00:21:54.789 --> 00:21:58.369 because it was a bit like BDSM. So I did a lot 00:21:58.369 --> 00:22:00.490 of stuff with like sword fighting and unarmed 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:03.390 combat. And I just really liked it if I got to 00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:09.240 lose. So I tried to select roles where I would 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.579 get beaten up or something, something that was 00:22:12.579 --> 00:22:14.819 somewhat like, oh, I got tied up quite a lot 00:22:14.819 --> 00:22:17.539 again. There were lots of opportunities for that. 00:22:17.619 --> 00:22:20.019 It just always felt a bit kind of tainted because 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:22.880 really I was doing BDSM without the consent of 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:24.579 the person I was doing it with because they didn't 00:22:24.579 --> 00:22:26.680 know it was BDSM. They thought it was just a 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.299 scene from a Shakespeare play. And so looking 00:22:29.299 --> 00:22:31.779 back, I don't feel like I really covered myself 00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:34.839 with glory by selecting those roles, but it was 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.109 all I could. think of doing i mean i thought 00:22:37.109 --> 00:22:40.309 that would be as good as it would get um the 00:22:40.309 --> 00:22:42.170 only other thing i think of doing was maybe like 00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:45.289 joining the army because i thought people were 00:22:45.289 --> 00:22:47.410 quite horrible to you in the army people might 00:22:47.410 --> 00:22:49.549 like at least shout at you or make you do push 00:22:49.549 --> 00:22:52.349 -ups and that wasn't exactly my kink imagine 00:22:52.349 --> 00:22:58.849 the recruitment posters though if that was their 00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:04.349 selling point posited kinksters come and enlist 00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:07.880 in the army It might work. Don't give them ideas. 00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:09.920 They'll do it. Did you do this? Please make me 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:11.619 feel less alone. Did you like eroticize stuff 00:23:11.619 --> 00:23:13.500 that really wasn't designed for that? A hundred 00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:20.819 percent. I feel like Mick's probably less so 00:23:20.819 --> 00:23:22.420 because they didn't figure out they were kinky 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:24.859 until they were like 19. They had a blissfully 00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:28.279 normal childhood and then stumbled into it once 00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:29.940 they were already sexually active and had people 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:32.200 to do kink with. So you just skip past all that. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.119 Finding weird little outlets for it and just... 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.779 Yeah, I managed to avoid all of the shame and 00:23:38.779 --> 00:23:41.000 feeling angry and stuff like that. That does 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.720 seem so healthy. Yeah, I apologise. I kind of 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.720 envy you that. I'm glad that you didn't have 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.359 like seven tortured years in my case and like 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.799 how many tortured years? Jesus, a lot. Yeah. 00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:55.460 Because, I mean, it just, it seems just such 00:23:55.460 --> 00:23:57.259 a waste. Apart from everything else, it just 00:23:57.259 --> 00:23:59.900 seems like such a waste. And I don't, looking 00:23:59.900 --> 00:24:01.599 back, I don't even fully understand where the 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:04.279 shame came from for me, because I know you really, 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:05.980 you know, took a lot of your religious upbringing 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:07.859 really seriously and were really trying to commit 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:10.319 to it. I fully rejected all of the religious 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.220 stuff from very, very young, about 12 or 13. 00:24:13.710 --> 00:24:15.910 But I held on to the shame. I was like, oh, I'll 00:24:15.910 --> 00:24:18.289 keep that bit. Yeah, that's the worst bit. Yeah. 00:24:18.529 --> 00:24:21.170 I won't think about lovely eternal life. I'll 00:24:21.170 --> 00:24:23.150 just have shame. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really sorry 00:24:23.150 --> 00:24:26.009 that was your experience because, like, I would 00:24:26.009 --> 00:24:28.390 have hoped it wouldn't be like that because your 00:24:28.390 --> 00:24:30.410 situation was somewhat different because you 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:32.829 kind of rejected... Yeah, and I wasn't raised 00:24:32.829 --> 00:24:35.269 Jehovah's Witness. Our family had moved into 00:24:35.269 --> 00:24:37.069 sort of mainstream Christianity by the time I 00:24:37.069 --> 00:24:38.829 was born. Yeah. Or, like, very shortly after 00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:41.420 I was born. So I was brought up... christian 00:24:41.420 --> 00:24:43.440 but not jehovah's witness so it was already a 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:45.799 little bit a little bit looser we had you know 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:49.039 we had christmas and stuff yeah um and then i 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.940 same broad same broad messages oh yeah for sure 00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.480 but but for people who've experienced being a 00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:57.519 jehovah's witness like the childhood i had would 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:01.000 seem very very liberated being able to go into 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:02.559 assembly at school and things like that yeah 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.460 you were less cut off From your peer group, maybe. 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:08.000 I was able to at least be influenced a little 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:09.619 bit by the outside world, which is probably why 00:25:09.619 --> 00:25:12.619 I felt able to reject it as long as I did. Realised 00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:15.960 it wasn't working for me and left it. But I think 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.099 shame is such a pervasive thing that even if 00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:19.759 there's no logical reason for it, once you've 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:22.559 lost the God says this is bad part of the equation, 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:25.420 you don't automatically ditch the shame. It's 00:25:25.420 --> 00:25:28.900 not always that easy. I think I know the answer, 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.279 but do you feel any guilt or shame at all? Not 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.240 anymore, no. I think there's maybe one or two 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:38.240 things that we've done that we've made the decision 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.339 not to post on FetLife. But that's not necessarily 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:43.640 a shame thing. It's more, do I want to deal with 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:45.319 how people are going to maybe respond to this 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:47.019 if this is outside their comfort zone? Yeah. 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.039 Yeah, it's not. Which is different, I think. 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:51.359 Yes. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's a much more kind 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.970 of clear -headed... decision so talking about 00:25:53.970 --> 00:25:56.910 shame do you think that doing kink the way that 00:25:56.910 --> 00:25:58.549 you've done it with so much of your kink life 00:25:58.549 --> 00:26:02.069 being on camera has that helped with unlearning 00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:03.730 shame because of it being so public do you think 00:26:03.730 --> 00:26:06.349 yes i think it really really has um i i'm not 00:26:06.349 --> 00:26:09.890 sure where i've got to otherwise because it means 00:26:09.890 --> 00:26:12.849 that you quite quickly start to get feedback 00:26:12.849 --> 00:26:17.269 from people and fortunately early on in my career 00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:20.089 all of that feedback was positive because i don't 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:23.069 think you start getting horrible comments until 00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:27.789 you're quite well known you do on tiktok yeah 00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:32.029 i guess that's probably different now because 00:26:32.029 --> 00:26:34.910 it all used to be just forums um and people just 00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:37.569 said really nice stuff especially back when i 00:26:37.569 --> 00:26:39.910 started it's really like though it's not like 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:43.349 there were thousands of bondage models and so 00:26:43.349 --> 00:26:47.769 i think it made me feel very appreciated um and 00:26:47.769 --> 00:26:50.740 then latterly kind of in the last 10 years or 00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:53.339 so, I've had a YouTube channel and social media 00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:55.839 is a much bigger thing. And I started getting 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:58.579 horrible comments as well. And I think actually 00:26:58.579 --> 00:27:01.819 that in some ways really helped because seeing 00:27:01.819 --> 00:27:04.339 people say the stuff about you that you used 00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:08.079 to be afraid was true and having an opportunity 00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:12.619 to just think and say, no, that's not the case. 00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:16.519 Actually, that has as well been quite helpful. 00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:19.579 for me so it's not like i'd say this is the route 00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:23.220 that everyone should take but yes choosing to 00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:25.900 do it very publicly has sort of forced me to 00:27:25.900 --> 00:27:28.680 confront how i feel about myself and how i'm 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:31.579 representing myself and yeah these days i'm really 00:27:31.579 --> 00:27:35.880 comfortable with it um i think that doing it 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.180 professionally so that the stuff i shoot is all 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:42.680 visible to the public it certainly makes you 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.680 feel some responsibilities in terms of representation 00:27:46.670 --> 00:27:48.730 some of the things that i might like to do in 00:27:48.730 --> 00:27:52.569 private i maybe wouldn't want to shoot um because 00:27:52.569 --> 00:27:54.630 of the possibility of people copying you so there's 00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:56.289 all of that responsibility i'm sure you feel 00:27:56.289 --> 00:27:59.089 as well because yes i have to think so carefully 00:27:59.089 --> 00:28:01.670 about especially with short form content on tiktok 00:28:01.670 --> 00:28:03.890 if i say this without enough nuance and enough 00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:06.970 disclaimers and enough safety information someone's 00:28:06.970 --> 00:28:09.750 going to just go do it yes yes and of course 00:28:09.750 --> 00:28:12.170 that changes things a little bit but but no broadly 00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:15.150 speaking it's been Very good. I mean, these days, 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:18.589 I would say I probably don't feel any shame at 00:28:18.589 --> 00:28:21.269 all. But that's been a very long journey. You 00:28:21.269 --> 00:28:24.930 know, I'm in middle age. And so it's really nice 00:28:24.930 --> 00:28:27.910 to see you arriving at what feels like a similar 00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:30.730 point much younger. definitely like i've i've 00:28:30.730 --> 00:28:32.569 found being so public about things really helpful 00:28:32.569 --> 00:28:34.089 because when i first started doing it i was still 00:28:34.089 --> 00:28:36.089 really working through a lot of that stuff and 00:28:36.089 --> 00:28:38.349 was probably a little bit vulnerable really in 00:28:38.349 --> 00:28:40.710 some of the content i was putting out but i found 00:28:40.710 --> 00:28:43.049 like you said both the positive comments are 00:28:43.049 --> 00:28:45.450 really validating and reaffirming and help to 00:28:45.450 --> 00:28:47.589 heal some of that and then the negatives it was 00:28:47.589 --> 00:28:48.970 sort of like i was looking at them i was like 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.940 Is this fucking amateur hour? Like I can say 00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:53.940 20 things worse than that to myself within less 00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.779 than a second. Yes. It immediately just puts 00:28:57.779 --> 00:28:59.460 things into perspective where it's like, actually, 00:28:59.539 --> 00:29:03.019 this is fine. Yes. Yeah, I don't know if being 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:08.500 non -binary in this one regard might make it 00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:12.289 a bit... easier as a submissive. Tell me if I'm 00:29:12.289 --> 00:29:15.410 wrong. But I have this horrible feeling that 00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:18.109 I'm sort of responsible for how women are seen. 00:29:18.309 --> 00:29:21.789 So as a female submissive, I'm scared that my 00:29:21.789 --> 00:29:25.630 work might be used to justify the idea of women 00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.950 being submissive, like wholesale. And I hope 00:29:28.950 --> 00:29:32.460 maybe you don't have quite that same... worry 00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:34.259 it's complicated so when i first started being 00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:36.259 really public about kink i was a lot more masculine 00:29:36.259 --> 00:29:38.740 presenting okay and so then people were generally 00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:42.039 reading me as either male or people who understood 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:43.559 that i was non -binary and were accepting of 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:45.039 that was still making the assumption i was assigned 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:47.700 male at birth because i had facial hair short 00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:49.779 hair it's a bit skinnier so i had a bit more 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:51.299 structure to my face like i looked a lot more 00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:53.299 masculine and then as i've started presenting 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:54.920 more and more feminine and i've gained weight 00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:56.740 so i look more feminine regardless of what i 00:29:56.740 --> 00:29:59.609 do with my presentation That perception has changed 00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:01.470 where people are reading me as female more often. 00:30:01.670 --> 00:30:03.390 And I don't think people worry about male subs 00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:05.589 as much as they worry about female. No, like 00:30:05.589 --> 00:30:07.329 if I got negative comments, it was basically 00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:13.650 like I was a weak beta cuck. Which is fine. But 00:30:13.650 --> 00:30:17.990 people weren't saying that that made any sense. 00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:22.329 but people weren't assuming that made any kind 00:30:22.329 --> 00:30:24.210 of commentary about men as a whole but yeah absolutely 00:30:24.210 --> 00:30:26.650 people do when they read you as female yes and 00:30:26.650 --> 00:30:29.210 i think like we went to a really really thought 00:30:29.210 --> 00:30:31.589 -provoking class around feminism and kink recently 00:30:31.589 --> 00:30:33.970 and one of the things that the educator in that 00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:36.190 talked about was about the difference between 00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:41.269 like impact and optics So my impact is important. 00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:44.349 I need to think about the messages that I'm putting 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:46.089 out into the world and the influence that I have 00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:48.829 on people where I'm not saying to women, your 00:30:48.829 --> 00:30:51.109 role is a submissive. You are naturally supposed 00:30:51.109 --> 00:30:54.009 to submit. You are supposed to be in this role. 00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:55.470 You should let your partner do whatever they 00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.170 want to you. It's really important that I don't 00:30:57.170 --> 00:31:00.440 do that. And I don't. It's not important. for 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.079 people to perceive me as a good feminist it's 00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.400 not important for me to perform feminism correctly 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:07.619 so people go oh yes your relationship is good 00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:09.880 and feminist and you are a good and feminist 00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:13.299 woman or person like that doesn't actually have 00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:15.259 any kind of positive or negative impact that 00:31:15.259 --> 00:31:18.440 is just fluff and pr what's important is that 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.619 i am not harming people and causing damage yes 00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:23.910 and that's Before that class, I hadn't really 00:31:23.910 --> 00:31:25.509 had word to put to it, but that's very much the 00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:27.670 approach I've taken. It's like, I'm not saying 00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:30.509 that people who look like me or have the same 00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:32.809 anatomy as me should be in this role. I'm saying 00:31:32.809 --> 00:31:34.309 that if you want to be in this role, you should 00:31:34.309 --> 00:31:35.990 be able to do it without feeling shame. That's 00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:39.369 the important thing. Yeah. And the way I think 00:31:39.369 --> 00:31:43.809 about it is that if I was a male, I would be 00:31:43.809 --> 00:31:46.930 a male submissive. If everything else about me 00:31:46.930 --> 00:31:49.029 was still the same, I'd be a submissive. And, 00:31:49.029 --> 00:31:51.859 you know, I could have been. born dominant and 00:31:51.859 --> 00:31:54.440 hopefully if i was dominant i would be doing 00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:56.259 all of these things from a different point of 00:31:56.259 --> 00:32:00.960 view it's just chance that i'm female and i don't 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.400 think i should not be allowed to explore the 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.160 things i like just because of oh what about representing 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.660 women is strong um so yeah So something I found 00:32:10.660 --> 00:32:12.259 really interesting is leaving me as male more. 00:32:12.339 --> 00:32:13.940 Most of my hate comments were from men. And when 00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:15.720 people perceive me as female more, most of my 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:17.240 hate comments are from women. Oh God, that's 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:19.559 depressing. People love to police their own gender. 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.740 It's wild. It's so fascinating. Like someone 00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:25.740 should study this. Someone probably has. Gosh, 00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:29.500 that is very interesting. I want to find out 00:32:29.500 --> 00:32:32.859 more about that. What's going on there? Wow. 00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:34.599 Yeah. Maybe people are just more mean to their 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:38.539 own gender. I think that's how, like, a lot of, 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.640 we risk fully diverting here, but how gender 00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:44.200 roles and sort of expectations really work is 00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:46.200 we're kind of self -policing. Yeah. The idea 00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:47.920 of this is what a man is and this is what a woman 00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:49.960 is. Oh, yeah. And, like, we're a traitor to our, 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.720 like, a gender traitor. Yeah. Yeah. Because a 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:56.299 lot of the stuff that... that women i think feel 00:32:56.299 --> 00:32:58.180 under pressure to do for their appearance and 00:32:58.180 --> 00:32:59.680 their gender role and stuff it more comes from 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:01.660 women than men a lot of men are like i like women 00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:05.059 with no or very natural makeup and don't particularly 00:33:05.059 --> 00:33:06.920 care what she's dressed up in and don't really 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:08.519 notice the difference and then women are like 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:12.160 why are you wearing that yes yeah yes i agree 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.420 well it's like even with even with the the bimbofication 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:16.940 stuff that we've done we've got rules around 00:33:16.940 --> 00:33:20.990 makeup But, like, Griesel will sometimes say 00:33:20.990 --> 00:33:22.230 to me, oh, I've done something different with 00:33:22.230 --> 00:33:24.130 my makeup today. Can you tell what it is? And 00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:26.569 I have got absolutely no fucking sweet clue. 00:33:26.670 --> 00:33:27.450 Because it's still your face. Still a really 00:33:27.450 --> 00:33:30.130 gorgeous face. You look great. One time the thing 00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:32.130 I'd done differently was I'd accidentally massively 00:33:32.130 --> 00:33:34.369 over -plucked my eyebrows to the point that I 00:33:34.369 --> 00:33:36.410 looked permanently surprised. Amazing. They couldn't 00:33:36.410 --> 00:33:39.730 tell. Oh, wow. Because you still looked amazing. 00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:50.680 something that i was really interested in is 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.359 we both do kink very publicly but in very different 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.319 ways so you do kink on screen and it could be 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.259 potentially seen by hundreds of thousands of 00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:02.799 people um where i do kink i my public content 00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:04.960 is not explicit it's it's me talking about my 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.039 life so when i do kink publicly it's at events 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.980 yes so smaller numbers of people but in person 00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:13.449 people do you feel like like that feels like 00:34:13.449 --> 00:34:15.510 very different to me and i feel like i would 00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:17.110 be nervous in a very different way doing what 00:34:17.110 --> 00:34:18.789 you do but i know you don't really play at events 00:34:18.789 --> 00:34:22.269 do you know and i really wouldn't want to like 00:34:22.269 --> 00:34:24.789 i i'm delighted that lots of people do enjoy 00:34:24.789 --> 00:34:28.400 doing it but To me, the fear of judgment for 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.260 doing that seems huge. And I don't have that 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:32.920 fear of judgment when I'm doing performances, 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:35.480 even though the risk of being judged is just 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.579 as much. And I think that's just an illusion. 00:34:38.579 --> 00:34:41.500 And I'm guessing it's just that my preference 00:34:41.500 --> 00:34:45.039 is for performance. And if my preference was 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.480 going and doing stuff in clubs, I would be doing 00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:49.760 it and I'd be discovering it was lovely. And 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.139 it's just not my preference. I think that the 00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.460 biggest thing for me about not wanting to do. 00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:58.860 kink in actual public is the idea of like my 00:34:58.860 --> 00:35:02.119 dominant being judged like that the idea of someone 00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:04.119 coming up and saying no you're doing it wrong 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.719 or like you're hitting her too hard that's the 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.199 image i get in my mind if i think of doing it 00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:12.619 and it just horrifies me yeah whereas you have 00:35:12.619 --> 00:35:16.500 done lots of that but you've not done bdsm like 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:19.639 on camera for people to watch like what do you 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.360 think that would be like for you i think like 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:24.099 because i've done sex work before including some 00:35:24.099 --> 00:35:27.679 video stuff it's i don't think it would be hugely 00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.679 sort of difficult i think it's a there'd be a 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:32.900 bit of nerves but nerves i could get past um 00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:35.260 it's not something that i do now partly because 00:35:35.260 --> 00:35:38.679 of my day job and partly because like i'm middle 00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:40.460 -aged and chubby and i like being able to relax 00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:44.909 definitely there is that Don't you feel, so I'm 00:35:44.909 --> 00:35:47.230 always, if I'm doing BDSM performance, unless 00:35:47.230 --> 00:35:49.150 it's so intense, I kind of lose the ability. 00:35:49.409 --> 00:35:51.489 I'm always thinking about like pulling my tummy 00:35:51.489 --> 00:35:54.429 in good posture, all of that. But don't you feel 00:35:54.429 --> 00:35:56.849 that when you're doing stuff at clubs in public? 00:35:57.050 --> 00:35:59.210 No, because I think because everyone else there 00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:01.889 is just regular people as well. Like when you're 00:36:01.889 --> 00:36:03.989 doing modelling or when you're doing porn. you're 00:36:03.989 --> 00:36:05.869 comparing yourself against other models and porn 00:36:05.869 --> 00:36:07.889 stars. Fair enough, yes. And the standard is 00:36:07.889 --> 00:36:11.889 so high and so narrow. So you do feel like, yes, 00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:13.969 suck your stomach in, don't have a big meal before 00:36:13.969 --> 00:36:15.769 you shoot, make sure your makeup is flawless, 00:36:15.849 --> 00:36:18.650 all of this. When you're in a club, they are 00:36:18.650 --> 00:36:20.610 just regular people and there's some gorgeous 00:36:20.610 --> 00:36:23.579 people there. Yeah. But it's diversity of body 00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:25.840 types, it's diversity of ages. Like there will 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:27.659 be people there who some people have made loads 00:36:27.659 --> 00:36:29.039 of effort and spent four hours on their makeup 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.280 and some people have just rolled out of bed, 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.980 had a shower and come in. So there's less of 00:36:32.980 --> 00:36:35.099 that comparison and there's less of that sort 00:36:35.099 --> 00:36:38.840 of rigid aesthetic expectation, which I think 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:40.639 makes it a lot more relaxed. Yeah, yeah, I can 00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:43.059 see that. And certainly I really love it when 00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:45.940 I get to a state at a shoot, which doesn't happen 00:36:45.940 --> 00:36:48.079 for every shoot by any means. But if I'm doing 00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:49.699 really intense stuff with someone I've got a 00:36:49.699 --> 00:36:52.900 good dynamic with, Getting to the point of not 00:36:52.900 --> 00:36:56.440 caring anymore is a really lovely place to get 00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:59.639 to. So yeah, if it could always be like that, 00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:01.980 that would be amazing. But as it is, I'm pulling 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:06.179 my tummy in. I think a big part of what I get 00:37:06.179 --> 00:37:09.019 out of BDSM is the permission to be ugly and 00:37:09.019 --> 00:37:11.480 messy. Because in the environment we grew up 00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:13.340 in, being ugly and messy were like the biggest 00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:16.079 sins you could commit. It was so unacceptable 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:19.719 to not be pretty and perfect and polished. Yeah. 00:37:19.820 --> 00:37:22.940 And having a space to like cry my mascara halfway 00:37:22.940 --> 00:37:26.340 down my face and throw up a little bit and snot 00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:29.679 everywhere and be a little bit chubby and be 00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.079 a little bit hairy and be a little bit sweaty 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.400 and pee myself if it gets too intense. Like that's 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.110 so freeing. And I'm not saying I couldn't do 00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:40.590 that on camera. I absolutely could. But I don't 00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:41.869 know what I would make would be particularly 00:37:41.869 --> 00:37:43.789 commercial because that ugliness is something 00:37:43.789 --> 00:37:45.969 that I would really want to preserve. Yeah, yeah, 00:37:45.989 --> 00:37:48.929 totally understood. But yeah, that is a really 00:37:48.929 --> 00:37:51.349 nice aspect of BDSM that it doesn't, you don't 00:37:51.349 --> 00:37:54.269 have to be presentable. Yeah. Yeah, I like that 00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:58.110 too. It's an oddly accepting space, isn't it? 00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:00.349 It's not what you would expect. Like when you 00:38:00.349 --> 00:38:03.130 go into a kink, like public kink events, it is 00:38:03.130 --> 00:38:05.860 really like by default. accepting of whoever 00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:08.159 walks through the door as long as they behave 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:10.139 yeah as long as you're like following the rules 00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:12.639 sticking to the dress code if there is one having 00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:14.519 some basic etiquette so not running up to someone 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.079 going hi when they're in the middle of a scene 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.079 like yeah yeah everyone's gonna be cool i know 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:21.880 you from tiktok i have had that before that's 00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:23.559 always the funniest thing if someone at a kink 00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:25.559 event recognizes me do you feel like you're really 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:28.480 walking the walk yeah but also it's like it's 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:30.980 like you're not getting the most pr version of 00:38:30.980 --> 00:38:33.239 me at a kink event no and they're probably not 00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:35.780 presenting the most like the version of yourself 00:38:35.780 --> 00:38:37.179 you would want to present to someone you look 00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:39.719 up to either we've definitely had a kink events 00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.019 where someone who was like fully gone in subspace 00:38:42.019 --> 00:38:44.699 floating away barely coherent it's gone oh my 00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:47.019 god i know you're from tiktok and it's like neither 00:38:47.019 --> 00:38:50.139 of us are our best selves right now are we you 00:38:50.139 --> 00:38:52.619 are maybe you're your most authentic self i'm 00:38:52.619 --> 00:38:58.250 very interested to know if we have any followers 00:38:58.250 --> 00:39:01.210 in common because we're both in BDSM we're both 00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:04.349 submissive masochists but you are covering like 00:39:04.349 --> 00:39:08.489 the educational end of things on TikTok and I 00:39:08.489 --> 00:39:12.170 am covering the porn end of things like on Twitter 00:39:12.170 --> 00:39:15.489 and I know we've talked about it a bit before 00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:21.010 that your kind of viewer base is young Younger 00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:23.550 than mine. Young and mainly female, yeah. So 00:39:23.550 --> 00:39:27.130 yeah, most of our viewers are below 30. I think 00:39:27.130 --> 00:39:30.449 most below 25. Like 20 to 25 is like our main 00:39:30.449 --> 00:39:34.050 sort of bracket. And about 85 % female on both 00:39:34.050 --> 00:39:36.889 TikTok and the pod. And mine is like 90 % male. 00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:40.159 and tends to be older. And so I'd be really interested 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:42.019 to see if anyone comes forward and goes, oh, 00:39:42.019 --> 00:39:45.719 yes, I know. I hope so, because that would make 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:50.519 me feel like you're a dynasty. Yes. And that 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.460 we've covered the whole, we've covered the whole, 00:39:52.539 --> 00:39:56.219 all the demographics. Yes. That's my ambition. 00:39:56.659 --> 00:39:58.699 Imagine, though, someone's mind being completely 00:39:58.699 --> 00:40:00.440 blown if they followed both of us for years. 00:40:01.159 --> 00:40:03.659 and just now finding out we're related yeah finding 00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:06.039 out today like there'll be like one person and 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.079 it's just gonna blow their minds and i think 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.639 it sounds like the sort of thing people make 00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:12.320 up as well yeah because in porn people are always 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.119 having fake But, you know, like on FetLife, people 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:18.420 will be like, oh, mommy to this person and like 00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:21.340 daddy Dom to this person and sister to this person. 00:40:21.340 --> 00:40:23.920 And we actually are siblings. And I think people 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:25.900 might think we're just making it up for reasons 00:40:25.900 --> 00:40:29.780 of kink. Yeah, if I launch an OnlyFans next week, 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:36.719 it's going to look really suspicious. It is an 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:38.239 interesting thing you said earlier on about feeling 00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:42.619 judged. The potential to feel judged in those 00:40:42.619 --> 00:40:44.119 spaces. Because initially when you said that, 00:40:44.139 --> 00:40:45.940 I thought you were kind of calling back to those 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:48.239 feelings of shame. But actually it sounded like 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:51.099 you were concerned about how other people will 00:40:51.099 --> 00:40:54.119 perceive your performance, I suppose. Or your 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:56.039 dominance performance. Definitely my dominance 00:40:56.039 --> 00:40:59.420 performance. Yeah. And I think maybe part of 00:40:59.420 --> 00:41:04.219 this is simply because I look like a woman and 00:41:04.219 --> 00:41:09.199 I only play with men. And I... just the idea 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.199 because because from time to time actually the 00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:14.059 criticism that has hurt me and stuck with me 00:41:14.059 --> 00:41:16.119 the most has been when people have said like 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.840 your boyfriend or now your husband um is abusing 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:21.480 you yeah um and obviously a kink club that'd 00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.079 be a very weird thing for someone to come and 00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:26.639 say to you but yeah and because i've not done 00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:28.900 it i don't really know what the culture is like 00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:30.579 probably if i did it i'd realize no one's going 00:41:30.579 --> 00:41:32.219 to come up and be like oh that's too hard but 00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:35.849 um but yeah it The idea of that is so unpleasant 00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:39.849 that I think I'm very avoidant of it. And I think 00:41:39.849 --> 00:41:42.710 some of that will come from, because we've experienced 00:41:42.710 --> 00:41:44.130 a little bit of that, haven't we, at some of 00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:46.090 the events we've been to where it's like we've 00:41:46.090 --> 00:41:50.510 gone too far, been too loud or too hard. It's 00:41:50.510 --> 00:41:53.489 usually a noise issue. I'm a screamer and we 00:41:53.489 --> 00:41:56.170 do play pretty hard. I'm very loud also. And 00:41:56.170 --> 00:42:00.750 to be fair, on at least one occasion, the... 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.320 It was probably justified. The way that it was 00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:06.039 dealt with was probably not the best. But I was 00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:09.039 hitting two very, very loud, very differently 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.900 loud as well. Because Carriza is quite kind of 00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:15.239 deep and quite guttural when they're getting 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.860 hit. And the other person that I was hitting 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:22.039 was very loud and very shrill with it, covering 00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:26.829 a whole range of sounds. And this particular 00:42:26.829 --> 00:42:30.610 venue is on a high street and we were loud enough. 00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:33.110 Apparently we could be heard outdoors. Okay. 00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:37.170 So understandable. Yeah. But I kind of relate 00:42:37.170 --> 00:42:38.929 to that fear of judgment because it's something 00:42:38.929 --> 00:42:42.510 that I, certainly when we first started going 00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:44.369 to events, was really, really conscious of and 00:42:44.369 --> 00:42:47.590 really worried about was I've done this stuff 00:42:47.590 --> 00:42:49.369 before. I know what I'm doing, but I've never 00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:51.789 done it in public before. What if people think 00:42:51.789 --> 00:42:53.469 I'm doing it wrong? Or even worse, what if I 00:42:53.469 --> 00:42:55.469 am actually doing it wrong? Yeah, totally, totally. 00:42:55.809 --> 00:42:57.590 And somebody calls me on it and it's like, yeah, 00:42:57.590 --> 00:42:59.190 not only are you doing that wrong, you're doing 00:42:59.190 --> 00:43:01.809 completely, in a really bad way, get out of my 00:43:01.809 --> 00:43:06.409 club, never come back kind of thing. Yeah. That's 00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:08.269 something that I've never experienced. No, good, 00:43:08.309 --> 00:43:10.849 good. But it was a real... But no, the idea of 00:43:10.849 --> 00:43:14.369 my dominant being told off, I don't want to see 00:43:14.369 --> 00:43:17.110 that. That's a horrible idea. I can confirm when 00:43:17.110 --> 00:43:19.329 mixes got told off, anyone who says anything 00:43:19.329 --> 00:43:21.010 negative to them, I want to bite them like a 00:43:21.010 --> 00:43:23.210 rat. I have to be physically restrained. It's 00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:26.690 not good. No. Because I don't know if it's exactly 00:43:26.690 --> 00:43:28.889 the same for you, but in the little universe 00:43:28.889 --> 00:43:32.349 I've constructed in my head, my dom is the king 00:43:32.349 --> 00:43:35.389 of the world. No one gets to tell them to stop. 00:43:35.969 --> 00:43:40.829 That is a very upsetting idea. Yeah. So I hope 00:43:40.829 --> 00:43:43.309 that never happens again. Because it sounds like 00:43:43.309 --> 00:43:44.869 you found some places where the kind of play 00:43:44.869 --> 00:43:47.090 you do is welcome. Yeah, it's a combination of 00:43:47.090 --> 00:43:49.610 finding the right places and like learning to 00:43:49.610 --> 00:43:51.230 predict how things are going to turn out. I think 00:43:51.230 --> 00:43:52.849 in the early days, like it was sometimes hard 00:43:52.849 --> 00:43:54.980 to know how loud it was going to get. Then you're 00:43:54.980 --> 00:43:56.539 in the moment and you're not thinking about it. 00:43:56.619 --> 00:43:58.619 And yeah, like in any venue, you're going to 00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:00.420 have to think a little bit about noise. But most 00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:02.340 of the places we go now, you don't have to worry 00:44:02.340 --> 00:44:04.820 too much about it. I mean, like there was an 00:44:04.820 --> 00:44:07.500 event that we went to last year where I ended 00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:09.440 up screaming so loud people could hear it in 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.739 the entire venue and in the smoking area. And 00:44:11.739 --> 00:44:13.460 the response was people coming up to me afterwards 00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:15.119 being like, you sounded like that was really 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.619 good. That's nice. And that's the vibe. That 00:44:18.619 --> 00:44:21.219 suits us. I like it. You're clearly prepared 00:44:21.219 --> 00:44:23.559 to travel quite far in order to do these things 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:25.440 as well. We do, yeah. Like, there are events 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.519 that happen locally, but we've just found, like, 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.480 the more we get into our dynamic and the heavier 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.360 we play, we need to find events that are really, 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.860 like, really broad -minded. So that's worth travelling 00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:38.059 for. And once you get to meet new people, you 00:44:38.059 --> 00:44:39.860 get to experience different styles of events. 00:44:39.940 --> 00:44:42.300 I think if you only ever go to events in one 00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:44.300 area, you can just kind of get it in your head, 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:45.980 this is what a kink event is. And it's always 00:44:45.980 --> 00:44:47.619 really good to see how different areas do it, 00:44:47.659 --> 00:44:49.179 even if you end up preferring your local area. 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.039 perspective so we've we really value getting 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.239 to travel yeah yeah i have found i've wanted 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.860 to i there's no distance i won't go really in 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:01.079 order to have good bdsm experiences it's so nice 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:03.980 um and so especially early on in my career i 00:45:03.980 --> 00:45:07.019 was seeking out all these producers who were 00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:09.599 all over the place and you know going to america 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:12.829 or going to australia because Because your sex 00:45:12.829 --> 00:45:15.849 drive is powerful, isn't it? Even if you're not 00:45:15.849 --> 00:45:18.309 having actual sex, just the desire to experience 00:45:18.309 --> 00:45:22.389 these things, it feels worth making sacrifices 00:45:22.389 --> 00:45:24.409 for and, yeah, travelling up and down the M1 00:45:24.409 --> 00:45:27.670 for. Yeah, for sure. Have you found, because 00:45:27.670 --> 00:45:29.269 it sounds like it's a very different sort of 00:45:29.269 --> 00:45:31.289 version of kink community, the experience, a 00:45:31.289 --> 00:45:33.869 lot of our experiences of kink community are 00:45:33.869 --> 00:45:36.309 through going to munches and then going to play 00:45:36.309 --> 00:45:38.030 events and that's how we know a lot of our kinky 00:45:38.030 --> 00:45:39.989 friends. Yeah. But with that not being something 00:45:39.989 --> 00:45:42.800 you do. But you still sound very much like you've 00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.099 found yourself a community of people and formed 00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:47.420 those same connections. Yes, yeah, definitely, 00:45:47.539 --> 00:45:49.860 definitely. I think the difference is that in 00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:52.639 my industry, I would say almost all the producers 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:55.880 are introverts because they get to do this on 00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:58.820 their own. They invite one model at a time to 00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:00.639 come into their environment for a set amount 00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:03.260 of time and then they send her away again. And 00:46:03.260 --> 00:46:05.719 so all my friends are introverts as a result. 00:46:05.860 --> 00:46:08.179 So I'm guessing the sort of people who go to 00:46:08.179 --> 00:46:11.679 munches and events would... not necessarily all 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:14.480 be introverts yeah there's a mix there's still 00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:16.800 a lot of introverts there if they're not if they're 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:18.219 not a photographer and they're not a model they 00:46:18.219 --> 00:46:19.980 kind of don't have any other options so sure 00:46:19.980 --> 00:46:22.139 they turn up and they sit looking terrified holding 00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:24.739 a pint but but yeah like there's definitely more 00:46:24.739 --> 00:46:27.940 more extroverts there yeah and we kind of keep 00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:30.730 the room circulating a little bit totally and 00:46:30.730 --> 00:46:32.949 so it definitely does feel like i'm part of a 00:46:32.949 --> 00:46:35.230 community but it's a community of people who 00:46:35.230 --> 00:46:38.070 don't meet up en masse so much so i would do 00:46:38.070 --> 00:46:40.610 a lot more socializing in very small groups because 00:46:40.610 --> 00:46:42.489 that's that i mean that's my preference and that 00:46:42.489 --> 00:46:44.710 also seems to be the preference of a lot of the 00:46:44.710 --> 00:46:47.829 people in my industry and i really like that 00:46:47.829 --> 00:46:50.610 i really like the sort of intimacy of meeting 00:46:50.610 --> 00:46:52.610 and working with people kind of one -on -one 00:46:52.610 --> 00:46:56.110 or maybe just two or three of you um that's how 00:46:56.110 --> 00:46:59.389 i feel like i make friends the best so yeah it 00:46:59.389 --> 00:47:01.989 suits my temperament very much because i think 00:47:01.989 --> 00:47:04.829 there's a sort of a perception within the mainstream 00:47:04.829 --> 00:47:07.309 standard kink scene that we're a part of that 00:47:07.309 --> 00:47:10.110 if you don't participate in that you are not 00:47:10.110 --> 00:47:12.090 involved in kink community it's like a very either 00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:14.530 or thing um i've heard a lot of people say like 00:47:14.530 --> 00:47:15.989 it's a red flag if you've never seen someone 00:47:15.989 --> 00:47:17.710 play at an event and stuff like that and it's 00:47:17.710 --> 00:47:20.219 like Not everyone wants to do that. The first 00:47:20.219 --> 00:47:22.420 two or three years that I was doing kink, I didn't 00:47:22.420 --> 00:47:24.320 go to events because the partner I was with at 00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:26.579 the time wasn't interested. And also we didn't 00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:28.639 have a car. So getting to the venues where they 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:32.840 happen was a lot more difficult. And people tend 00:47:32.840 --> 00:47:34.579 to sort of advise like playing for your first 00:47:34.579 --> 00:47:36.119 time at an event and things like that, which 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:37.719 for some people really works. But I couldn't 00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:39.940 have done that my first time. Could not. No, 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:42.159 me neither. I mean, because that would have been 00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.710 terrifying to me as well. So no, I feel like 00:47:45.710 --> 00:47:47.630 there's a space for lots of different people 00:47:47.630 --> 00:47:50.289 in kink and we just express it in different ways. 00:47:50.489 --> 00:47:52.289 I think that just shows like there's a lot of 00:47:52.289 --> 00:47:54.150 different ways to have kink community. I think 00:47:54.150 --> 00:47:56.070 it's not good for kinky people to be isolated 00:47:56.070 --> 00:47:57.449 because you can end up feeling like you're the 00:47:57.449 --> 00:47:59.170 biggest pervert on the planet and oh my god, 00:47:59.170 --> 00:48:01.289 I'm so disgusting. How do I cope with this? We 00:48:01.289 --> 00:48:03.429 need each other and it's good to learn things 00:48:03.429 --> 00:48:04.969 from other people and bounce ideas off other 00:48:04.969 --> 00:48:06.849 people and we need people to play with. Yes. 00:48:06.969 --> 00:48:10.269 But I think going to a munch and sitting around 00:48:10.269 --> 00:48:13.559 in a circle talking about... stuff isn't to everyone's 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:15.780 taste i really like it but i am a huge extrovert 00:48:15.780 --> 00:48:17.840 and being in a big group of people and talking 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.059 to loads of people is my ideal i think it's important 00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:22.800 to kind of get out there that there's a lot of 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.320 ways to find like your kinky tribe and that isn't 00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.579 the only one yeah yeah totally and on the other 00:48:27.579 --> 00:48:29.980 hand i i think the idea of meeting one or two 00:48:29.980 --> 00:48:32.039 people at a time for a very set period of time 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:34.579 sounds ideal you should be a photographer yeah 00:48:34.579 --> 00:48:41.929 or a model or a model Maybe a photographer. With 00:48:41.929 --> 00:48:44.190 the career you've had, you said about 20 years, 00:48:44.289 --> 00:48:47.789 right? What have been some of the best experiences 00:48:47.789 --> 00:48:49.650 in that, the coolest stuff you've experienced? 00:48:50.349 --> 00:48:53.989 Like when I think of kind of high points, one 00:48:53.989 --> 00:48:57.809 of the particular high points for me was I'd 00:48:57.809 --> 00:49:01.849 been modelling, I guess, like about 14, 13 or 00:49:01.849 --> 00:49:03.889 14 years by this point, full time. So I'd had 00:49:03.889 --> 00:49:06.190 loads of experiences and I thought I'd kind of 00:49:06.190 --> 00:49:08.809 experienced. everything I was capable of doing 00:49:08.809 --> 00:49:11.789 and everything I was that I wanted to do. But 00:49:11.789 --> 00:49:14.349 then I went and worked with Eric Kane, who runs 00:49:14.349 --> 00:49:17.010 a website called Futile Struggles. And it's just 00:49:17.010 --> 00:49:20.929 like a whole other level of terrifying, really. 00:49:21.150 --> 00:49:24.760 He does very, very secure. rope bondage and with 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.280 most rope bondage even with people who are good 00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:29.639 riggers you can just often get out if you tried 00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:31.840 hard enough you could just get out but his work 00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:35.599 is genuinely inescapable really frightening and 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:37.480 at the time at least he shot in the middle of 00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.440 nowhere so there's if something went wrong there's 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:42.599 really no one to come and immediately let you 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.760 out um and i remember looking at his work and 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:48.940 thinking like i love it like it's sexy to me 00:49:48.940 --> 00:49:51.960 like i like looking at it as porn i really don't 00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:54.380 know if i can do this or not but i'm gonna definitely 00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:57.739 contact him and try because i'd like to believe 00:49:57.739 --> 00:50:00.320 i could do this um and so i went and worked with 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.519 him and it was just tremendous but it felt like 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.780 kind of getting into fifth gear for the first 00:50:05.780 --> 00:50:08.059 time ever like wow there's another dimension 00:50:08.059 --> 00:50:13.039 of this and that was just i know with with bdsm 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.920 as a sub at least for me a lot of it is sort 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:18.500 of trying to find the line between what's enough 00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:21.320 and what's too much and obviously when you try 00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:24.619 to do that sometimes it's too much um And it 00:50:24.619 --> 00:50:26.960 felt like, you know, the first few times I worked 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.119 with him, I felt like I was really discovering 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.960 where the line between enough and too much was. 00:50:32.699 --> 00:50:37.420 And it was just I think I mean, it was sexy and 00:50:37.420 --> 00:50:39.219 everything. It was hot. And also it was kind 00:50:39.219 --> 00:50:41.760 of spiritual because subspace is such an interesting 00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:45.360 state to get to. But also I felt like just like 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:48.980 a stunt performer. Like this is like a circus. 00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:54.820 And that I hadn't really expected to. ever experienced 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:57.179 that and so I kind of became quite addicted to 00:50:57.179 --> 00:50:58.559 it and I've been working with him for a really 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.739 long time now and I think that's one of the really 00:51:02.739 --> 00:51:05.000 nice things about doing my job is that you do 00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:07.260 get to sample a lot of different people's version 00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:10.500 of doing BDSM a bit like if you were having multiple 00:51:10.500 --> 00:51:12.539 play partners you just get to sample lots of 00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:15.699 things and you know a lot of it will be fine 00:51:15.699 --> 00:51:17.820 and then occasionally you'll just find something 00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:21.809 that just feels perfect like yeah wow what a 00:51:21.809 --> 00:51:25.110 extraordinary kind of complete experience that 00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:27.849 was I remember last time I worked with him um 00:51:27.849 --> 00:51:31.710 we did a post like post shoot interview and I 00:51:31.710 --> 00:51:33.829 remember saying it's just like there's no it 00:51:33.829 --> 00:51:36.389 feels like there's no past and no future all 00:51:36.389 --> 00:51:38.989 there is is kind of this moment and yeah that's 00:51:38.989 --> 00:51:42.550 just um I'm amazing I'm a very I've got very 00:51:42.550 --> 00:51:44.750 loud in a monologue I'm very kind of impatient 00:51:44.750 --> 00:51:49.250 and um energetic and and how Find those few moments. 00:51:49.309 --> 00:51:54.289 It's just transformative. Yeah, it's so beautiful. 00:51:54.829 --> 00:51:57.130 That's always what I'm chasing from kink. Yeah, 00:51:57.630 --> 00:52:00.449 like the brain off is so, so important. I think 00:52:00.449 --> 00:52:01.989 I remember you saying, do you get the kind of 00:52:01.989 --> 00:52:04.769 subspace amnesia as well? I don't tend to forget 00:52:04.769 --> 00:52:06.809 stuff, but I can end up with most of my brain 00:52:06.809 --> 00:52:08.329 just kind of shutting down during play where 00:52:08.329 --> 00:52:10.550 I'm not really aware of pain. I'm not really 00:52:10.550 --> 00:52:13.230 thinking anything. It's just very, very quiet 00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:16.429 upstairs, which is nice. Yeah, it's one of the 00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:19.150 things. It's not that I don't want people to 00:52:19.150 --> 00:52:21.110 think my job is sexual, because it is. I'm not 00:52:21.110 --> 00:52:26.409 saying, oh, no, it's far more elevated than sexual. 00:52:26.650 --> 00:52:29.630 But the fact is, it is something as well as sexual. 00:52:29.809 --> 00:52:32.949 And the fact that it can be both of those things 00:52:32.949 --> 00:52:36.389 so intensely at once is, I mean, really addictive. 00:52:36.949 --> 00:52:39.449 And I hope I can carry on enjoying that for a 00:52:39.449 --> 00:52:41.309 long time, because obviously the stuff that both 00:52:41.309 --> 00:52:46.280 of us like to do, it requires a somewhat... healthy 00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:49.780 body so i'm always aware that me in 20 years 00:52:49.780 --> 00:52:52.300 time might not be getting to do some of the more 00:52:52.300 --> 00:52:54.900 extreme stuff i guess scale down stuff will feel 00:52:54.900 --> 00:52:56.960 more extreme as you get older though like i hope 00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:00.739 so it's like this could break my hip yeah yeah 00:53:00.739 --> 00:53:05.539 i think that's probably true but i think like 00:53:05.539 --> 00:53:07.380 80 year old me will be happy to have done these 00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:09.099 extreme things and be able to look back at them 00:53:09.099 --> 00:53:11.340 as long as none of them have like broken my spine 00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:14.340 that's fair i remember the first time i experienced 00:53:14.340 --> 00:53:19.340 your zen -like state uh -huh what happened it's 00:53:19.340 --> 00:53:23.320 it's quite disconcerting to be fair because you 00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:26.239 go from because what we did when we first got 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:28.679 together was lots of impact so there was lots 00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:31.420 of wriggling there was lots of noises that you 00:53:31.420 --> 00:53:32.860 would expect when you're hitting people with 00:53:32.860 --> 00:53:36.559 stuff and then all of a sudden it just stopped 00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:39.739 you got really really quiet and really really 00:53:39.739 --> 00:53:43.409 still and it and it's it's I can see that might 00:53:43.409 --> 00:53:45.989 be eerie. It's a little bit, yeah, quite disconcerting 00:53:45.989 --> 00:53:49.550 to experience that. You go, are they okay? But 00:53:49.550 --> 00:53:52.230 then sometimes you'll just start giggling. Yeah, 00:53:52.309 --> 00:53:54.869 that happens as well. Oh, I don't do that. Yeah, 00:53:54.949 --> 00:53:57.070 if I stay in that sort of state where I'm not 00:53:57.070 --> 00:53:58.969 really processing pain anymore for long enough, 00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:01.900 generally they'll... Mix will try to break through 00:54:01.900 --> 00:54:03.599 it by hitting me harder and harder with worse 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:06.460 and worse things. And either that works and I 00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:08.380 start screaming and struggling again. Great. 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:11.639 Or I stay in that state, but I start laughing 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:13.760 at what they're doing because it's so funny seeing 00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.980 them try to hurt me. And then once I get the 00:54:15.980 --> 00:54:17.880 giggles, I can't stop. And so I kind of come 00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:19.599 out of the Zen state, but I'm still not really 00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:21.460 feeling pain and I'm just laughing hysterically. 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:23.500 So that's like kind of being drunk. That's very 00:54:23.500 --> 00:54:26.019 interesting. I've never been to that state. It 00:54:26.019 --> 00:54:29.019 sounds really nice. It's great. Yeah. It's been 00:54:29.019 --> 00:54:31.280 really fun exploring that with Mix because in 00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.000 my last relationship, it was once I got to the 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:35.559 state where I wasn't really responding to pain, 00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:37.719 that was outside my ex -partner's risk profile. 00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:39.440 She was concerned she wouldn't be able to tell 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:41.599 if she gave me an injury or something like that. 00:54:41.619 --> 00:54:43.579 So she didn't like to play past that point. So 00:54:43.579 --> 00:54:45.079 if I got to that state, she would wrap it up. 00:54:45.780 --> 00:54:49.070 Completely fair from a risk perspective. Because 00:54:49.070 --> 00:54:50.590 it's something we've talked about and talked 00:54:50.590 --> 00:54:52.829 about, like the fact that really intense pain 00:54:52.829 --> 00:54:54.730 will still pull me out of it. So a serious injury 00:54:54.730 --> 00:54:57.190 or something we probably could pick up on makes 00:54:57.190 --> 00:54:59.429 us comfortable continuing to play past that point. 00:54:59.510 --> 00:55:02.090 And that's when we discovered the drunken giggly 00:55:02.090 --> 00:55:04.590 stage that comes later. And it's great. It's 00:55:04.590 --> 00:55:07.849 so much fun. Can I ask, because I always hope 00:55:07.849 --> 00:55:12.989 for tops and doms, do you relate to this sort 00:55:12.989 --> 00:55:15.190 of getting to a different mental state at all? 00:55:16.369 --> 00:55:20.219 I think... I think to an extent. There's some 00:55:20.219 --> 00:55:23.579 of the things that we do which are quite meditative, 00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.519 I think because they're quite detailed processes 00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:29.119 to them. Probably less so with waterboard, but 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:33.760 like the stuff we do with nettles. Yeah. There's 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:36.380 a whole process to it, you know, from going and 00:55:36.380 --> 00:55:39.780 finding the nettles to preparing them to preparing 00:55:39.780 --> 00:55:46.260 cariesel. Oh my God. And then... doing the things 00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:48.179 with the nettles it's quite a meditative process 00:55:48.179 --> 00:55:52.300 um i don't think when we're doing like impact 00:55:52.300 --> 00:55:55.079 especially like heavy impact i think i will get 00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:57.039 into a rhythm and i will get into like a flow 00:55:57.039 --> 00:55:59.559 state but i don't get that kind of almost kind 00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:02.239 of zen floating away kind of feeling because 00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:05.159 i am still keeping an eye on what's happening 00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:08.340 yeah that's what i'm always suspicious of anchor 00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:12.519 that goes no i i i need to retain a level of 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:17.239 like monitoring while i'm doing things i'm not 00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:19.239 in your head but the thing i perceive as being 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:21.639 the most mind -altering for you is breath play 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:24.179 and rate play both of those it seems like you 00:56:24.179 --> 00:56:26.440 just become another person yeah like there's 00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.780 a little bit of a ferality to you yeah that seems 00:56:28.780 --> 00:56:31.880 like more of a a headspace change than i usually 00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:35.500 see yeah yeah i think that's probably fair though 00:56:35.500 --> 00:56:37.860 those things which are more it's the extreme 00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:40.519 imbalance of power yeah pure expressions of power 00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:43.940 yeah i think are probably it's probably the closest 00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:46.300 that i get but even then there's still a an anchor 00:56:46.300 --> 00:56:48.760 to it you still have to monitor to make sure 00:56:48.760 --> 00:56:51.239 that you're not damaging me yeah yeah yeah you 00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:52.880 have to be a little bit sensible when i really 00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:56.739 don't yeah yeah yeah it's like um i guess you 00:56:56.739 --> 00:56:59.340 can afford to be a bit less self -indulgent i 00:56:59.340 --> 00:57:03.940 guess like as the sub you kind of you can I think 00:57:03.940 --> 00:57:06.039 just kind of really indulge in the experience. 00:57:06.820 --> 00:57:08.559 So I always feel a bit sorry for doms because 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.880 it seems like a lot of work. I definitely find 00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:13.900 even from a sub perspective though, I think because 00:57:13.900 --> 00:57:17.360 I'm a bit of an overthinker and I do a lot of 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:19.500 thinking about my risk profile and really like 00:57:19.500 --> 00:57:21.280 in -depth risk assessment, you can tell I work 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:22.920 in insurance with the headspace I bring into 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:26.820 kink. I think there's always a part of me that 00:57:26.820 --> 00:57:29.500 is kind of analysing the risk of anything we're 00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:31.219 doing, being prepared to speak up if something 00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:33.400 doesn't feel right, things like that. It's just 00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:35.519 that that part gets really quiet and it's just 00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:37.219 sort of there, almost like a click track in the 00:57:37.219 --> 00:57:39.320 background. Yeah. Where if it starts alerting, 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.460 I'll notice it. But if it's not, I can tune it 00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:43.900 out. Yeah. So I've got a really good separation 00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:47.940 from that in a voice where I think maybe mixes 00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:50.760 is a little bit louder. And maybe it needs to 00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:52.579 be. I think as a dominant, you do have a little 00:57:52.579 --> 00:57:55.059 bit more responsibility within the moment. Yeah. 00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:57.840 So it's maybe not something that you feel able 00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.039 to tune out quite as much. Yeah. I don't think 00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:03.800 I would want to. Yeah. either to be fair like 00:58:03.800 --> 00:58:05.960 the click click track is a really good analogy 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:08.800 because i think there is an element of that but 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:10.940 it is a little bit louder and you you're kind 00:58:10.940 --> 00:58:12.860 of more conscious of it as you as you're doing 00:58:12.860 --> 00:58:15.739 whatever you're doing yeah um even with the stuff 00:58:15.739 --> 00:58:17.199 like you say i think because i think you're right 00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:18.960 there is definitely a headspace shift when we 00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:22.000 do like breath play or kind of consensual non 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.179 -consent stuff so that's probably the closest 00:58:25.179 --> 00:58:27.199 i get as well as those kind of meditative things 00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:31.199 that i talked about yeah yeah um It would feel 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:34.880 dangerous to kind of completely zen out. I can 00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.860 see that. Yeah, I can see that. Which would be 00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:40.820 a bit worrying for me. Yeah. You are the bus 00:58:40.820 --> 00:58:42.880 driver in this situation. You can't fall asleep 00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:47.460 at the wheel. No, unfortunately not. No. Slightly 00:58:47.460 --> 00:58:50.000 different angle on reflecting on your career, 00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:55.280 I suppose. I think there's a lot in the media 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:58.190 at the moment about... The porn laws in this 00:58:58.190 --> 00:59:01.469 country and the approach to censorship of porn 00:59:01.469 --> 00:59:04.269 and stuff like that. How has that been kind of 00:59:04.269 --> 00:59:05.889 over the course of your career? Have you noticed 00:59:05.889 --> 00:59:09.010 that that is changing? Is it going backwards? 00:59:09.269 --> 00:59:12.869 It's very interesting that when I started modelling, 00:59:12.969 --> 00:59:19.320 it was 2003, and websites were just... booming 00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:21.900 people were starting membership sites for all 00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:23.760 sorts of things and a lot of them were doing 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.119 really well because there was this hunger people 00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:29.260 wanted to to go and see the porn that they related 00:59:29.260 --> 00:59:33.500 to and so a lot of people were making money from 00:59:33.500 --> 00:59:38.079 very niche things like bondage wearing 1970s 00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.260 blouses there was a website that was just for 00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:42.780 bondage in white blouses i mean it could be very 00:59:42.780 --> 00:59:46.500 niche And it was amazing. I mean, the opportunities 00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:49.639 for a fetish model who was kind of hungry to 00:59:49.639 --> 00:59:53.019 experience lots, it was great. Looking back, 00:59:53.179 --> 00:59:58.559 it was, of course, not at all regulated. So... 00:59:59.250 --> 01:00:01.530 people who were doing dangerous stuff didn't 01:00:01.530 --> 01:00:03.610 get shut down particularly quickly eventually 01:00:03.610 --> 01:00:06.429 word would get around to all the models and no 01:00:06.429 --> 01:00:08.030 one would work with them anymore but it would 01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:11.889 take years so looking back it's not like it was 01:00:11.889 --> 01:00:15.309 all good but it was certainly a really kind of 01:00:15.309 --> 01:00:19.369 fertile time for the industry and at the time 01:00:19.369 --> 01:00:23.480 the rules of what we could sell were laxed Really, 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.800 because no one was trying to really moderate 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.400 yet. So I remember I never worked for this website, 01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:32.239 but there was a website that was based near where 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:35.980 I lived that was like fake snuff, which these 01:00:35.980 --> 01:00:40.039 days, I mean, getting billing for that, you would 01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:43.179 go to jail. I can't believe, looking back, that 01:00:43.179 --> 01:00:46.300 people got away with so much. But then in the 01:00:46.300 --> 01:00:48.780 years that have passed, Visa and Mastercard, 01:00:48.900 --> 01:00:50.949 who provide the billing for it. all of these 01:00:50.949 --> 01:00:54.750 sites have started tightening up and so i think 01:00:54.750 --> 01:00:58.190 some of that is probably fair because i think 01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:01.210 there were some really unwise things being shot 01:01:01.210 --> 01:01:03.389 not not just in terms of representation but in 01:01:03.389 --> 01:01:06.710 terms of like literal actual danger yeah um but 01:01:06.710 --> 01:01:10.969 we've got to a point right now in like 2026 where 01:01:10.969 --> 01:01:14.530 a whole load of things aren't allowed for reasons 01:01:14.530 --> 01:01:21.280 that i find quite stupid so we've got a law against 01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:25.039 anything that looks like breath play and i can 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:27.039 see you know breath play clearly is quite dangerous 01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:29.400 there are some things we probably shouldn't film 01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:33.079 because people might copy but what happens is 01:01:33.079 --> 01:01:35.300 you know having a rope that goes around the neck 01:01:35.300 --> 01:01:36.760 that isn't putting any pressure on your neck 01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:39.940 can it you could say it looks like breath play 01:01:39.940 --> 01:01:42.019 if you don't really know anything about bondage 01:01:42.019 --> 01:01:45.150 um you know a hood over someone's face we know 01:01:45.150 --> 01:01:46.789 you can often breathe through a hood but someone 01:01:46.789 --> 01:01:48.389 who's never worn one doesn't necessarily know 01:01:48.389 --> 01:01:52.110 that so content that i think really probably 01:01:52.110 --> 01:01:57.539 should be okay is being censored A lot of words 01:01:57.539 --> 01:02:00.639 aren't allowed anymore. So if you use OnlyFans, 01:02:00.699 --> 01:02:03.960 for example, you can't use any numbers under 01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.800 18 in case you're talking about someone underage. 01:02:06.900 --> 01:02:09.360 So you can't say six strokes of the cane. And 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:15.219 also you can't say cane. So the rules are quite 01:02:15.219 --> 01:02:18.599 difficult to navigate. Creatively, it's quite 01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:21.199 frustrating, especially if you're someone with 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:24.960 very word -heavy content. my content is very 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:28.880 talky and having to avoid all of these words 01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:33.940 is quite hard work and i sometimes feel increasingly 01:02:33.940 --> 01:02:37.960 i feel that that representation of more niche 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:42.320 kinks is beginning to be stamped down on um so 01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:45.980 you know hardcore boy girl is all still fine 01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:48.039 you can still do double and triple penetration 01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:51.360 all sorts of kind of hardcore activities But 01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:53.900 if you've got a more marginalised sexual identity 01:02:53.900 --> 01:02:56.940 and what you like to see is women pretending 01:02:56.940 --> 01:02:59.789 they've been chloroformed... you're out of luck 01:02:59.789 --> 01:03:02.269 now because they might be dead um they might 01:03:02.269 --> 01:03:03.489 be being trafficked and they might have been 01:03:03.489 --> 01:03:05.630 killed and so you can't see this so we can't 01:03:05.630 --> 01:03:07.590 even pretend to be asleep in the at the beginning 01:03:07.590 --> 01:03:10.909 of a scene there's there's a lot um and it is 01:03:10.909 --> 01:03:14.070 beginning to really seriously impact some of 01:03:14.070 --> 01:03:18.510 my peers uh so far i've been okay um because 01:03:18.510 --> 01:03:21.329 the core of my business is custom videos where 01:03:21.329 --> 01:03:23.849 no one else necessarily sees the video it can 01:03:23.849 --> 01:03:26.250 be just for the customer but reselling those 01:03:26.250 --> 01:03:30.849 videos is becoming Quite challenging. you can 01:03:30.849 --> 01:03:33.309 no longer mention family relations unless you 01:03:33.309 --> 01:03:36.130 put the word step in front. And you end up having 01:03:36.130 --> 01:03:39.769 like step aunts and step nephews and step grandmothers. 01:03:39.769 --> 01:03:43.349 And it sounds ridiculous. But it's not, I mean, 01:03:43.389 --> 01:03:46.250 it's interesting. It's not, and I started having 01:03:46.250 --> 01:03:48.230 this awful kind of Pavlovian response when I 01:03:48.230 --> 01:03:52.489 use some of these words in real life. You can't 01:03:52.489 --> 01:03:54.690 use the word force. Like even if it's like I 01:03:54.690 --> 01:03:58.489 forced him to get out of my flat. And yeah, I 01:03:58.489 --> 01:04:00.250 know. I remember exactly when you, stop being 01:04:00.250 --> 01:04:07.809 able to search for forced okay a lot of sites 01:04:07.809 --> 01:04:10.469 block brutal as well that used to be a good yes 01:04:10.469 --> 01:04:15.230 i can't say captive um yeah and it does feel 01:04:15.230 --> 01:04:18.969 like it squashes just personal expression and 01:04:18.969 --> 01:04:22.409 how much of that this is like potentially showing 01:04:22.409 --> 01:04:24.650 my ignorance here how much of that is because 01:04:24.650 --> 01:04:27.099 of legislation and how much of that is the payment 01:04:27.099 --> 01:04:30.219 processes yeah it's more payment processes right 01:04:30.219 --> 01:04:35.219 so they tend to be more draconian than most right 01:04:35.219 --> 01:04:39.119 like western governments anyway the uk has started 01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:41.739 bringing in they brought in like the age verification 01:04:41.739 --> 01:04:45.320 yes law so that websites with i think it's more 01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:47.659 than one -third pornographic content have to 01:04:47.659 --> 01:04:51.239 have like more robust age verification yeah yeah 01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:54.400 um i mean at least in theory i think that's a 01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:57.719 good idea in practice it puts a lot of pressure 01:04:57.719 --> 01:05:00.380 on potentially very small websites. Because if 01:05:00.380 --> 01:05:02.519 you look at mainstream film, they have to get 01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:06.480 certificates like 18, 15, PG, whatever. But we've 01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:08.800 got a relatively small number of production companies 01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:11.920 which are relatively big and relatively wealthy. 01:05:12.380 --> 01:05:14.719 But when you put the same kind of pressure on 01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:17.699 an individual shooting from their bedroom, if 01:05:17.699 --> 01:05:21.599 you give them the same responsibility to... to 01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:23.980 implement age verification on their website it 01:05:23.980 --> 01:05:26.099 might not be possible for them it might not be 01:05:26.099 --> 01:05:28.500 affordable so we've seen some smaller websites 01:05:28.500 --> 01:05:30.880 being shut down or shutting themselves down over 01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:34.280 this yeah and then all of the the data privacy 01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:37.360 issues that come with that as well like now these 01:05:37.360 --> 01:05:39.519 porn websites have everyone's credit card details 01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:42.300 and passport photos like that's not ideal and 01:05:42.300 --> 01:05:44.119 potentially they could leak the sort of porn 01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:46.039 that you're buying which is obviously for a lot 01:05:46.039 --> 01:05:47.719 of people it's their absolute worst nightmare 01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:50.760 the idea of the whole world finding out what 01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:53.019 they're into yeah so yeah it's an interesting 01:05:53.019 --> 01:05:56.039 time for the industry for sure but even on a 01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.019 more practical level i feel like it might sound 01:05:58.019 --> 01:05:59.780 a little bit ageist but definitely for kind of 01:05:59.780 --> 01:06:02.400 younger generations that kind of age verification 01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.719 in the uk might as well not be there because 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:07.800 everybody knows that you can get vpns you don't 01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:10.619 even have to pay for them no and you immediately 01:06:10.619 --> 01:06:13.559 get around it it's so i think in the us they're 01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:17.760 trying to make either make vpns illegal or like 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:19.980 regulate them in some additional way i just read 01:06:19.980 --> 01:06:23.360 about this last week so yeah clearly what will 01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:26.980 happen next yeah is vpns are going to be in the 01:06:26.980 --> 01:06:28.760 firing line and i believe quite a lot of people 01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:31.039 have to use them for completely legitimate normal 01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:33.440 day jobs i have one for my day job okay right 01:06:33.440 --> 01:06:35.340 yeah my day job as well yeah so that's clearly 01:06:35.340 --> 01:06:37.940 not been really thought out very well yet i think 01:06:37.940 --> 01:06:39.639 the uk government have talked at least in vague 01:06:39.639 --> 01:06:41.599 terms about age restricting them because if you 01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:44.119 need them for work you're an adult but okay but 01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:46.500 it does start to just get messier and messier 01:06:46.500 --> 01:06:48.320 and any protections you put in place to make 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:50.409 it harder The young people are going to figure 01:06:50.409 --> 01:06:52.289 out a way around it. Like a 14 year old who wants 01:06:52.289 --> 01:06:54.150 to watch porn is going to find porn. Yes. And 01:06:54.150 --> 01:06:55.750 it's going to take them about 20 minutes. You 01:06:55.750 --> 01:06:58.889 ban VPNs, you ban torrent sites, you require 01:06:58.889 --> 01:07:00.449 age verification. They're still going to do it. 01:07:00.510 --> 01:07:02.650 Like when this age verification rolled out, there 01:07:02.650 --> 01:07:04.309 were a bunch of teenagers who were getting access 01:07:04.309 --> 01:07:06.409 to Pornhub by using a filter from a video game. 01:07:06.809 --> 01:07:09.829 and using like a live like feed of their video 01:07:09.829 --> 01:07:12.789 game character like the teenagers will figure 01:07:12.789 --> 01:07:15.369 it out yeah it's gonna be the sort of 60 plus 01:07:15.369 --> 01:07:17.849 who are like i guess i can't watch porn anymore 01:07:17.849 --> 01:07:20.570 which just doesn't seem fair no it doesn't and 01:07:20.570 --> 01:07:23.269 i feel like um you know the the biggest porn 01:07:23.269 --> 01:07:26.329 studios have got resources to throw at it but 01:07:26.329 --> 01:07:29.150 the people who are representing minority sexual 01:07:29.150 --> 01:07:31.909 tastes are more likely to suffer so we're likely 01:07:31.909 --> 01:07:34.150 to see if this really is implemented successfully 01:07:34.150 --> 01:07:37.139 we'll start to see a lot more vanilla representation 01:07:37.139 --> 01:07:41.840 and a lot less representation of stuff that really 01:07:41.840 --> 01:07:43.619 needs to be represented to make people aware 01:07:43.619 --> 01:07:47.659 that they're not alone yeah so that is troubling 01:07:47.659 --> 01:07:50.659 but interesting and I think it might get quite 01:07:50.659 --> 01:07:53.239 a lot worse before it gets any better but we'll 01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:55.619 see it's such a tricky one because no one really 01:07:55.619 --> 01:07:57.780 wants to like stand up and fight for their right 01:07:57.780 --> 01:07:59.940 to watch porn because no one wants to talk about 01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:02.119 the fact that they watch porn and a lot of people 01:08:02.119 --> 01:08:07.250 do and there's that risk of Almost like respectability 01:08:07.250 --> 01:08:10.889 politics in it, isn't it? And you see it sometimes 01:08:10.889 --> 01:08:13.570 on FetLife where there's a big reaction to a 01:08:13.570 --> 01:08:16.470 particular kink, kind of negative reaction to 01:08:16.470 --> 01:08:18.050 a particular kink. Oh, well, we should ban that 01:08:18.050 --> 01:08:21.770 kink because that kink is wrong and bad. Well, 01:08:21.770 --> 01:08:25.630 that's fine. But where do you draw the line? 01:08:25.810 --> 01:08:28.470 If you get rid of that really out there kink, 01:08:28.489 --> 01:08:33.220 then what about the next most out there? kink 01:08:33.220 --> 01:08:35.239 and the one after that and the one after that 01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:37.779 and it's kind of like you say it's just shrinking 01:08:37.779 --> 01:08:41.720 what is acceptable Totally. I think about that 01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:44.500 a lot because I shoot some stuff that is quite 01:08:44.500 --> 01:08:46.779 marginal and quite edgy. And if it was in real 01:08:46.779 --> 01:08:48.739 life, it would be really terrible. Like, you 01:08:48.739 --> 01:08:51.460 know, any kind of CNC stuff, of course it would 01:08:51.460 --> 01:08:54.439 be criminal. But then I think, I mean, but it 01:08:54.439 --> 01:08:56.739 wouldn't be okay for a secretary to start stripping 01:08:56.739 --> 01:08:59.939 in the office either. And I do that all the time. 01:09:00.060 --> 01:09:02.020 And I mean, is any of this okay? And the answer 01:09:02.020 --> 01:09:05.680 is like, no, not really. No, it's not okay to 01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:07.659 flirt with your step -nephew. Even if he is only 01:09:07.659 --> 01:09:10.710 a step -nephew, that's not okay. And yeah, certainly 01:09:10.710 --> 01:09:13.529 exposure to this industry as time has gone on, 01:09:13.590 --> 01:09:16.789 I have found myself becoming less and less judgmental, 01:09:16.789 --> 01:09:18.949 even of things that are very surprising to hear 01:09:18.949 --> 01:09:23.289 about. I just try to hear about new things, new 01:09:23.289 --> 01:09:27.010 to me kinks with a kind of spirit of open hearted 01:09:27.010 --> 01:09:30.029 curiosity rather than any kind of judgment. And 01:09:30.029 --> 01:09:32.229 having grown up in a very judgmental religion, 01:09:32.369 --> 01:09:34.670 that doesn't necessarily come particularly naturally, 01:09:34.909 --> 01:09:37.510 but it's really important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 01:09:38.280 --> 01:09:40.060 I was just thinking we had an electrician around 01:09:40.060 --> 01:09:41.359 recently, didn't we? I think we would have had 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:43.000 something to say if he suddenly started stripping 01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:45.520 off. Yeah. In the middle of the kitchen. I think 01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.079 the cats would as well. The cats were already 01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:50.199 scared enough. True. The cats usually like visitors, 01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:52.340 but they just took a dislike to the electrician. 01:09:52.340 --> 01:09:54.880 They both cowered under my desk, glaring the 01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:57.359 entire time he was here. They did not trust him. 01:09:57.359 --> 01:09:59.760 I don't think they liked him. taking the guts 01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:02.520 out of their house. Yeah. Maybe they were right. 01:10:02.579 --> 01:10:04.479 Was he quite a horrible man, do you think? No, 01:10:04.500 --> 01:10:07.739 he seemed lovely. He's quite tall, he's quite 01:10:07.739 --> 01:10:09.680 well built, and he's got a bit of a booming voice. 01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:13.579 Yeah. But yeah, no, they were both just cowering 01:10:13.579 --> 01:10:16.939 away, weren't they? Anyway. Is that... Because 01:10:16.939 --> 01:10:19.359 you don't just work in the UK, you work all over 01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:23.659 the world. Is that different in other countries, 01:10:23.699 --> 01:10:26.920 that kind of approach to censorship and legislation, 01:10:27.100 --> 01:10:31.140 or is it... Yes. In the States, like don't quote 01:10:31.140 --> 01:10:36.180 me on exactly this, but like Florida, for example, 01:10:36.279 --> 01:10:42.560 I think any BDSM is illegal. I mean, I don't 01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:45.060 think anyone's been prosecuted or not that I've 01:10:45.060 --> 01:10:48.859 heard of at least. In the UK, basically all impact 01:10:48.859 --> 01:10:52.539 play is technically illegal and you can't consent 01:10:52.539 --> 01:10:55.880 to assault. So that's a big issue for those of 01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:58.470 us who like to be assaulted. I'm like... in a 01:10:58.470 --> 01:11:04.550 controlled environment. And so there are some 01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:08.270 countries that they don't seem to have any laws 01:11:08.270 --> 01:11:10.529 that particularly address this stuff. So some 01:11:10.529 --> 01:11:13.909 countries and some states in the US, you'd be 01:11:13.909 --> 01:11:16.430 in a better position doing this kind of thing. 01:11:16.510 --> 01:11:20.510 But no, it does vary quite a lot. I think there's 01:11:20.510 --> 01:11:23.090 something in Singapore. Oh my gosh, in Singapore, 01:11:23.189 --> 01:11:28.359 if someone sees you naked, in your house so if 01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:31.819 they can see you from outside that's illegal 01:11:31.819 --> 01:11:35.159 like you've committed a like public indecency 01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:39.859 offense thing so yes it varies a lot was it singapore 01:11:39.859 --> 01:11:42.760 where you nearly got arrested it was it was nudity 01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:47.939 yes yes like when no one saw the nudity police 01:11:47.939 --> 01:11:50.880 seized the photographer's camera and saw that 01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:53.640 we'd shot nudity. And that counted as public 01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:55.359 nudity, even though no one had seen it, which 01:11:55.359 --> 01:11:57.859 was new to me. Like, that is not something I'd 01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:02.819 expected. So, yes. And fortunately slash unfortunately, 01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:05.319 Visa and MasterCard are everywhere. So the fact 01:12:05.319 --> 01:12:07.279 that their rules are kind of stricter than most 01:12:07.279 --> 01:12:09.520 countries' rules means that there is a sort of 01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:13.109 unifying... thing yeah that even if you are living 01:12:13.109 --> 01:12:16.270 in a country that's super duper liberal mastercard 01:12:16.270 --> 01:12:19.130 slash visa will still be able to shut you down 01:12:19.130 --> 01:12:21.029 stop you being able to make any money from it 01:12:21.029 --> 01:12:23.050 wherever you're based so yeah really the economic 01:12:23.050 --> 01:12:26.390 censorship so far has been worse than any particular 01:12:26.390 --> 01:12:30.670 territories right um attempt at censoring us 01:12:30.670 --> 01:12:32.569 are there many people working using cryptocurrency 01:12:32.569 --> 01:12:34.710 and stuff to get around that or is it just not 01:12:34.710 --> 01:12:37.579 stable enough to really be viable yeah i I only 01:12:37.579 --> 01:12:40.720 know of one person who takes cryptocurrency as 01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:43.520 payment. So there might be some very edgy, exciting 01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:45.699 people who I don't know about who are using it. 01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.420 But no, only one of the people I know has used 01:12:48.420 --> 01:12:50.500 it at all. I figured because of how much it fluctuates, 01:12:50.539 --> 01:12:52.920 it's never really become viable for running a 01:12:52.920 --> 01:12:55.760 business because that's not how business works. 01:12:55.899 --> 01:12:59.300 You can't have your income double or half overnight. 01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:05.539 No, no, that would be really stressful. at the 01:13:05.539 --> 01:13:08.159 whim of some fella in a white house yeah saying 01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:11.079 something weird yeah i'm not clever enough to 01:13:11.079 --> 01:13:13.880 understand it i don't want to i want pounds you 01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:16.279 done with your section mix yeah cool i i take 01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:18.859 a break for this bit yeah i was gonna say i mean 01:13:18.859 --> 01:13:20.239 at this point makes really you should probably 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:21.800 get a cuppa and chill because you're far too 01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:23.420 well adjusted for this we're gonna talk a little 01:13:23.420 --> 01:13:27.140 bit about trauma and came And this is dangerous 01:13:27.140 --> 01:13:28.960 because this would run to about four hours. Once 01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:32.039 we start trauma dumping, we just go. Like the 01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:33.779 number of times we've been out to dinner and 01:13:33.779 --> 01:13:36.140 Mix is just sitting there in the corner, like 01:13:36.140 --> 01:13:44.439 gently dissociating. It's always really, I will 01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:46.300 say it is always really, really interesting and 01:13:46.300 --> 01:13:48.560 really fascinating to listen to. I just cannot 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:51.289 relate to it. No, well, I'm glad. I almost feel 01:13:51.289 --> 01:13:54.289 sorry for that. You have a very lovely family 01:13:54.289 --> 01:13:57.069 and a very nice life. And we love that for you. 01:13:57.789 --> 01:14:02.329 Well done. But we had, as we've touched on a 01:14:02.329 --> 01:14:04.649 little bit with the very conservative sort of 01:14:04.649 --> 01:14:07.409 religious upbringing, but also various other 01:14:07.409 --> 01:14:09.729 things that happened. Like we, obviously, I know 01:14:09.729 --> 01:14:11.510 you've started to talk about this a little bit 01:14:11.510 --> 01:14:14.189 more publicly recently. And I have as well that 01:14:14.189 --> 01:14:16.890 we... We went through quite a lot of abuse as 01:14:16.890 --> 01:14:19.270 children separately because of the age gap. But 01:14:19.270 --> 01:14:20.729 then as we've been adults, we've talked about 01:14:20.729 --> 01:14:24.729 it. How have you found that with kink? Do you 01:14:24.729 --> 01:14:26.970 feel like the two bleed into each other at all 01:14:26.970 --> 01:14:30.090 or not for you? I'm really interested in this 01:14:30.090 --> 01:14:33.149 subject, as you know, because I think our approaches 01:14:33.149 --> 01:14:38.060 have been different, wildly different. And it's 01:14:38.060 --> 01:14:41.000 hard for me to disentangle a little bit because 01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:44.460 as a professional submissive, I've been dominated 01:14:44.460 --> 01:14:46.720 by all sorts of different people, like men, women, 01:14:46.939 --> 01:14:49.159 like older people, younger people, all of this. 01:14:49.300 --> 01:14:53.600 And broadly speaking, it's okay. But what I actually 01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:58.079 get something out of personally is I'm just a 01:14:58.079 --> 01:15:00.859 heterosexual woman. I like being dominated by 01:15:00.859 --> 01:15:05.819 men. I can do other stuff for work, but my preference 01:15:05.819 --> 01:15:08.659 will always be that. And that might be just that 01:15:08.659 --> 01:15:12.680 I'm heterosexual or it might be that I am avoiding 01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:18.500 stuff that feels reminiscent of some of the worst 01:15:18.500 --> 01:15:23.060 things from my childhood. And I don't really 01:15:23.060 --> 01:15:27.140 have an answer for that. Although I've been doing 01:15:27.140 --> 01:15:29.319 this a really long time, it's only been a tiny 01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:32.539 handful of times where I've done something at 01:15:32.539 --> 01:15:36.420 work or in play where there's been a kind of 01:15:36.420 --> 01:15:39.699 resonance in an uncomfortable way that I thought, 01:15:39.819 --> 01:15:42.180 God, this suddenly is reminding me of something 01:15:42.180 --> 01:15:45.520 that I don't want to be remembering in this nice, 01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:50.550 sexy situation. But it has been only a handful 01:15:50.550 --> 01:15:53.449 of times. But I guess you could say I was maybe 01:15:53.449 --> 01:15:56.770 avoiding anything that is likely to kind of trigger 01:15:56.770 --> 01:15:59.850 the worst things. Like, for example, I don't 01:15:59.850 --> 01:16:05.550 really do any religious kind of play. The idea 01:16:05.550 --> 01:16:09.149 of being like a naughty nun being punished by 01:16:09.149 --> 01:16:11.390 like the Mother Superior, that doesn't sound 01:16:11.390 --> 01:16:14.729 hot to me. And I don't know if that's... because 01:16:14.729 --> 01:16:17.770 of abuse or just because well i'm heterosexual 01:16:17.770 --> 01:16:20.109 i like men in suits or maybe pirate costumes 01:16:20.109 --> 01:16:25.890 so i would say i guess generally the two just 01:16:25.890 --> 01:16:30.149 those two things um so i guess you would say 01:16:30.149 --> 01:16:33.569 i was kind of avoidant of stuff that feels a 01:16:33.569 --> 01:16:37.289 bit close to home yeah whereas i think your strategy 01:16:37.289 --> 01:16:41.020 or your um preference is very different yeah 01:16:41.020 --> 01:16:43.579 i'm very much an emotional masochist and i like 01:16:43.579 --> 01:16:45.680 to find the triggers and poke at them a little 01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:50.739 bit um so i i mean there's definitely things 01:16:50.739 --> 01:16:53.140 where i feel like trauma has shaped some of my 01:16:53.140 --> 01:16:56.460 limits i'm very uncomfortable with anything involving 01:16:56.460 --> 01:16:59.359 age play or like sort of addressing a partner 01:16:59.359 --> 01:17:01.720 as daddy or mommy that right yeah that comes 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:04.539 to a line for me because it makes me feel not 01:17:04.539 --> 01:17:07.079 just helpless but powerless okay there's a subtle 01:17:07.079 --> 01:17:09.239 distinction for me i like feelings of helplessness 01:17:09.239 --> 01:17:12.819 i don't like complete powerlessness um and being 01:17:12.819 --> 01:17:14.760 in a position where i feel like i'm in a childlike 01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:16.739 role or someone else's in a parental role is 01:17:16.739 --> 01:17:19.520 really challenging for that and tends to just 01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:21.720 make me angry like positions where i feel like 01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:23.699 i'm being treated like a child i don't just mean 01:17:23.699 --> 01:17:25.359 in kink i mean in life in general if i feel like 01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:28.520 i'm being spoken to like a child It's the worst 01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:30.380 side of me you will ever see because just the 01:17:30.380 --> 01:17:32.520 pure rage that comes out is like a defense mechanism. 01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:34.939 Okay, yeah. So that's an area where I'm definitely, 01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:39.100 where my trauma has shaped sort of how I respond 01:17:39.100 --> 01:17:40.640 to those kinks, whether I'd have been into them 01:17:40.640 --> 01:17:44.079 or not, otherwise is impossible to know. But 01:17:44.079 --> 01:17:46.140 my strong reaction to them is definitely trauma 01:17:46.140 --> 01:17:49.180 shaped. But in other areas, it's like, no, poke 01:17:49.180 --> 01:17:52.840 at it. Poke at it really bad. I don't know. I 01:17:52.840 --> 01:17:55.460 think I'm definitely, I'm an emotional, I'm a 01:17:55.460 --> 01:17:57.399 general purpose emotional masochist. It's not 01:17:57.399 --> 01:18:00.159 just in kinks. So like a lot of the music I listen 01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:02.180 to is stuff that makes me cry. And it's like, 01:18:02.220 --> 01:18:04.399 if that makes me cry, that's a real banger. Yeah, 01:18:04.399 --> 01:18:07.079 I can relate to that. Certainly, yeah. In a non 01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:10.039 -sexual way. Yeah. Yes. And that just very much 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:12.840 bleeds over into my sexuality where I like to... 01:18:13.210 --> 01:18:14.909 I think there's a lot of freedom in it. It's 01:18:14.909 --> 01:18:16.649 like these are really strong emotions that really 01:18:16.649 --> 01:18:18.470 governed a lot of my life. You know, like my 01:18:18.470 --> 01:18:21.369 feelings around my trauma drove me into unhappy 01:18:21.369 --> 01:18:24.170 relationships. They put me into dangerous situations 01:18:24.170 --> 01:18:27.090 with potentially abusive people. They pushed 01:18:27.090 --> 01:18:29.710 my addiction. They drove self -harm. Like a lot 01:18:29.710 --> 01:18:31.390 of really bad stuff happened because of my trauma, 01:18:31.409 --> 01:18:33.970 because I felt like it was driving me. And so 01:18:33.970 --> 01:18:35.630 putting myself back in the driver's seat and 01:18:35.630 --> 01:18:37.470 going, today we're going to play with sexual 01:18:37.470 --> 01:18:41.779 abuse trauma. Let's poke it. It takes the power 01:18:41.779 --> 01:18:43.720 and puts it in my hands instead. And that feels 01:18:43.720 --> 01:18:46.239 really freeing. And I think having a controlled 01:18:46.239 --> 01:18:48.460 environment to feel all the stuff. And instead 01:18:48.460 --> 01:18:50.560 of, like a lot of my most self -destructive behavior 01:18:50.560 --> 01:18:52.319 has come from, I'm going to try to shut this 01:18:52.319 --> 01:18:54.460 down. I don't want to feel that. So I'm going 01:18:54.460 --> 01:18:56.319 to drug it or I'm going to drink it or I'm going 01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:58.920 to hurt myself and that'll make it go away. Instead 01:18:58.920 --> 01:19:00.859 going like, we've got like a protected bubble 01:19:00.859 --> 01:19:04.210 here and we're going to get it all out. and blow 01:19:04.210 --> 01:19:06.109 it up to 100 times bigger and make it as bad 01:19:06.109 --> 01:19:08.649 as possible and then in two hours time it's going 01:19:08.649 --> 01:19:10.029 to be over and you're not going to have to deal 01:19:10.029 --> 01:19:12.729 with it anymore and it's like it's boxed off 01:19:12.729 --> 01:19:15.489 that feels really freeing as well really comforting 01:19:15.489 --> 01:19:18.630 so i do you think you are actually looking for 01:19:18.630 --> 01:19:20.989 kind of trauma resolution in your play or is 01:19:20.989 --> 01:19:23.979 it just that it's hot a little of both okay yeah 01:19:23.979 --> 01:19:26.659 a little both it's i don't ever do kink purely 01:19:26.659 --> 01:19:29.020 with the aim of like this is therapy because 01:19:29.020 --> 01:19:31.399 it's not sure and i think it could be quite risky 01:19:31.399 --> 01:19:33.380 to try to approach it like that there's always 01:19:33.380 --> 01:19:36.539 an element of this is hot or this is meeting 01:19:36.539 --> 01:19:38.479 some need that might not be entirely sexual so 01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:40.279 i would say like the interrogation scene we did 01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:42.699 for example generally didn't feel sexual because 01:19:42.699 --> 01:19:45.140 it was just it was just too intense to get into 01:19:45.140 --> 01:19:48.460 that space but it met a lot of needs that weren't 01:19:48.460 --> 01:19:51.039 weren't therapy and weren't sex it was kind of 01:19:51.590 --> 01:19:55.210 challenge and and sort of overcoming adversity 01:19:55.210 --> 01:19:57.189 and that kind of stuff that can feel really good 01:19:57.189 --> 01:20:00.329 um so i can be pursuing some kind of need like 01:20:00.329 --> 01:20:02.590 that and then it's like as a side effect of that 01:20:02.590 --> 01:20:05.289 also it straightens some stuff out in my brain 01:20:05.289 --> 01:20:08.329 so even though you're not seeking therapy in 01:20:08.329 --> 01:20:12.350 that regard it actually has been somewhat therapeutic 01:20:12.350 --> 01:20:15.869 definitely yeah i think it's important for people 01:20:15.869 --> 01:20:17.710 to know that kink isn't a substitute for therapy, 01:20:17.789 --> 01:20:19.729 but I would also say that therapy is not a substitute 01:20:19.729 --> 01:20:22.029 for kink. Yeah. It can really address things 01:20:22.029 --> 01:20:24.250 in a very different way. And for someone like 01:20:24.250 --> 01:20:26.369 me, who outside of kink really has difficulty 01:20:26.369 --> 01:20:29.510 with authority figures, has difficulty with trust, 01:20:29.890 --> 01:20:32.949 has probably some residual issues, particularly 01:20:32.949 --> 01:20:35.350 with opening up to women, but also has issues 01:20:35.350 --> 01:20:36.989 with opening up to men for different reasons. 01:20:37.609 --> 01:20:40.090 Like therapy is very, very challenging for me 01:20:40.090 --> 01:20:42.819 to access where kink is not. So it gives me a 01:20:42.819 --> 01:20:44.439 kind of side route into dealing with some of 01:20:44.439 --> 01:20:46.819 that stuff. Yes, I can understand that. And certainly 01:20:46.819 --> 01:20:50.500 I relate to the just feeling angry. So that is 01:20:50.500 --> 01:20:55.180 exactly what happens sometimes if something I'm 01:20:55.180 --> 01:20:59.520 doing at play or work strays into stuff that 01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:01.720 feels too close to really horrible memories. 01:21:02.579 --> 01:21:05.840 What I discover is I just suddenly feel angry. 01:21:06.380 --> 01:21:08.979 I don't feel terribly upset and tearful. I just 01:21:08.979 --> 01:21:11.920 feel angry. And when I'm angry, I'm not submissive. 01:21:11.920 --> 01:21:15.279 So it's just like a sort of switch. Well, now 01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:18.220 I'm irritated. I was in a scene years and years 01:21:18.220 --> 01:21:20.699 ago. I was doing a spanking shoot and it was 01:21:20.699 --> 01:21:24.220 a headmaster student storyline. I was obviously 01:21:24.220 --> 01:21:27.220 the student and he, the headmaster, called me 01:21:27.220 --> 01:21:31.100 stupid. And I... well i thought well i'm not 01:21:31.100 --> 01:21:32.760 going to make any noise now when you spank me 01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:36.699 at all because now i'm annoyed and it wasn't 01:21:36.699 --> 01:21:39.680 me at my most submissive i just felt irritated 01:21:39.680 --> 01:21:43.000 yeah and yeah that's it's quite easy to tip over 01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:47.140 into irritation um and yeah that's not really 01:21:47.140 --> 01:21:50.060 my kink but i think that i honestly feel pretty 01:21:50.060 --> 01:21:53.659 grateful and glad that although our strategies 01:21:53.659 --> 01:21:57.539 are different The things we went through didn't 01:21:57.539 --> 01:21:59.779 kind of crush this interest that we both have. 01:21:59.819 --> 01:22:03.420 I wouldn't like to be without this part of me. 01:22:03.500 --> 01:22:06.739 It's a really precious part of me. I really love 01:22:06.739 --> 01:22:09.840 it. And I can see how it might have done for 01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:12.340 some people. Maybe it would have just made them 01:22:12.340 --> 01:22:15.060 avoidant of this whole world of power exchange 01:22:15.060 --> 01:22:17.220 because it would just feel too risky and too 01:22:17.220 --> 01:22:22.020 tainted. And so I think it's really lucky that 01:22:22.020 --> 01:22:25.920 it didn't do that to us. I think people sometimes 01:22:25.920 --> 01:22:28.399 as well feel like they need to explain all of 01:22:28.399 --> 01:22:29.960 their kinks as coming from their trauma and that 01:22:29.960 --> 01:22:32.039 can taint it in its own way as well. Like, oh 01:22:32.039 --> 01:22:33.760 yeah, I'm into all this and it's just a trauma 01:22:33.760 --> 01:22:36.060 response. And it's like, my kinks are definitely 01:22:36.060 --> 01:22:38.760 shaped by trauma, but I don't think I would be 01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:40.899 less kinky if I didn't have trauma. I think just 01:22:40.899 --> 01:22:43.380 the flavour and the way that I express it would 01:22:43.380 --> 01:22:45.359 be different. Totally, yeah. And I might have 01:22:45.359 --> 01:22:48.840 a slightly wider spectrum of things I was interested 01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:51.600 in if it wasn't. possibly but but yeah i mean 01:22:51.600 --> 01:22:54.039 i'm happy with what i've got yeah in terms of 01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:58.159 sexuality and kink it doesn't feel like it's 01:22:58.159 --> 01:22:59.899 robbed me of a whole load of things i'd have 01:22:59.899 --> 01:23:02.840 really liked to enjoy and it clearly hasn't done 01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:05.020 that for you because like you're happy poking 01:23:05.020 --> 01:23:09.539 at that stuff yeah i i really like i think there's 01:23:09.539 --> 01:23:11.420 a lot of power in it for me i think a lot of 01:23:11.420 --> 01:23:13.939 the ways that i sort of poke at trauma through 01:23:13.939 --> 01:23:18.899 kink is It's about feeling a lot of power in 01:23:18.899 --> 01:23:21.520 it, feeling I'm back in control of it, even though 01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:23.260 I look for as little power as possible in my 01:23:23.260 --> 01:23:25.939 life. It's deciding what parts of myself I hand 01:23:25.939 --> 01:23:28.739 over and what I allow people to weaponize. Yes. 01:23:28.800 --> 01:23:32.479 It all happens very much on my terms. And I think 01:23:32.479 --> 01:23:36.579 there's a certain amount of just releasing this 01:23:36.579 --> 01:23:38.800 pressure that survivors of abuse often put on 01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:41.119 ourselves of being like, I must fix myself to 01:23:41.119 --> 01:23:44.170 be the person I was pre -trauma. oh wow like 01:23:44.170 --> 01:23:46.149 this idea of I must put the pieces of myself 01:23:46.149 --> 01:23:48.909 back together and I must erase this thing that 01:23:48.909 --> 01:23:51.350 happened and that's impossible when when abuse 01:23:51.350 --> 01:23:53.670 started so young oh my gosh yeah like I can't 01:23:53.670 --> 01:23:55.210 recover that person because I have no idea who 01:23:55.210 --> 01:23:56.689 that person would have been no I mean that person 01:23:56.689 --> 01:23:59.569 didn't really exist yeah I mean because they'd 01:23:59.569 --> 01:24:03.369 be unrecognizable yeah um so instead of trying 01:24:03.369 --> 01:24:05.090 to do that instead of trying to repair all the 01:24:05.090 --> 01:24:08.010 damage it's going actually because of the life 01:24:08.010 --> 01:24:10.149 I've had I think trauma bonds are really hot 01:24:10.539 --> 01:24:13.220 Because of the life I've had, love to me looks 01:24:13.220 --> 01:24:16.539 like violence, and so does sex. And because of 01:24:16.539 --> 01:24:19.140 the life I've had, being verbally abused makes 01:24:19.140 --> 01:24:22.220 me feel valued. And that's fucked up. We can 01:24:22.220 --> 01:24:24.880 acknowledge that it's fucked up. But that's the 01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:27.819 reality that I'm living in. So instead of trying 01:24:27.819 --> 01:24:29.840 to recover the person that I would have been, 01:24:29.899 --> 01:24:31.640 and instead of trying to undo all of that, and 01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:34.000 instead of trying to figure out this impossible 01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:36.579 tangle of... of who i would have been without 01:24:36.579 --> 01:24:38.239 all of these ingredients that have been put in 01:24:38.239 --> 01:24:41.380 let's just work with with what i've got to work 01:24:41.380 --> 01:24:43.699 with yeah and have a good time with it yeah yeah 01:24:43.699 --> 01:24:46.300 just like playing the hand that we have yeah 01:24:46.300 --> 01:24:49.859 i'm very interested that you are capable of kind 01:24:49.859 --> 01:24:53.479 of enjoying what sound to me like just insults 01:24:53.479 --> 01:24:57.079 like you you seem to quite enjoy being insulted 01:24:57.079 --> 01:25:01.260 like physically yeah which it interests me very 01:25:01.260 --> 01:25:03.920 much because basically what the abuse did to 01:25:03.920 --> 01:25:09.149 me if I kind of distill it, it's four main beliefs 01:25:09.149 --> 01:25:12.029 I had about myself. The belief that I was ugly, 01:25:12.149 --> 01:25:17.310 stupid, lazy, and, like, dirty. Yeah, same. Okay. 01:25:17.789 --> 01:25:23.310 What a surprise. I wonder why. Yeah, that person 01:25:23.310 --> 01:25:25.510 really just, like, picked a theme and stuck to 01:25:25.510 --> 01:25:28.729 it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to admire the 01:25:28.729 --> 01:25:36.220 consistency. Yeah. And so, like, My play partners 01:25:36.220 --> 01:25:40.420 tell me I'm beautiful and clever and hardworking 01:25:40.420 --> 01:25:45.100 and clean. Those things are really important 01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:47.920 and it's very entertaining to me and kind of 01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.439 flabbergasting that no, you're quite up for being 01:25:50.439 --> 01:25:54.619 told you're ugly. Ugly, disgusting pig, yes. 01:25:54.779 --> 01:25:58.279 I mean, I'm glad for you because it seems like, 01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:01.100 well, that's a decent way of processing it. If 01:26:01.100 --> 01:26:04.550 that is where it comes from, then great. But 01:26:04.550 --> 01:26:11.850 I don't relate. I like very gentlemanly behaviour 01:26:11.850 --> 01:26:18.289 from a dominant. I like kind of courtesy. Like, 01:26:18.329 --> 01:26:20.550 you know, wiping away my tears with a pocket 01:26:20.550 --> 01:26:24.949 handkerchief and then caning me some more. And 01:26:24.949 --> 01:26:29.689 not telling me I'm ugly. So it's an interesting 01:26:29.689 --> 01:26:32.409 case study, I guess, in two individuals who have 01:26:32.409 --> 01:26:35.819 rather similar... backgrounds but have just processed 01:26:35.819 --> 01:26:39.539 stuff differently yeah definitely I think it's 01:26:39.539 --> 01:26:42.060 I don't know why it happens so differently but 01:26:42.060 --> 01:26:45.319 a lot of that for me is like when someone who 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:47.260 I know really loves and really respects me says 01:26:47.260 --> 01:26:50.180 things like that to me it just highlights how 01:26:50.180 --> 01:26:52.739 ridiculous it is oh okay because because like 01:26:52.739 --> 01:26:54.359 in the moment I can still feel that I can still 01:26:54.359 --> 01:26:56.899 get upset in the moment but in the the sort of 01:26:56.899 --> 01:26:59.380 outside of that bubble of play it's like I know 01:26:59.380 --> 01:27:02.119 that Mix doesn't think I'm ugly and that they 01:27:02.119 --> 01:27:04.619 don't think I'm disgusting Like, I know that. 01:27:04.819 --> 01:27:08.699 So it just means that those things have absolutely 01:27:08.699 --> 01:27:10.420 no real weight to them. And then people who've 01:27:10.420 --> 01:27:13.000 said them and meant it just go into that same 01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:16.579 sort of like, same clown car. It's like, that's 01:27:16.579 --> 01:27:21.060 fake. So what's it like for you, S? Like, dealing 01:27:21.060 --> 01:27:25.920 or like playing with someone with this stuff 01:27:25.920 --> 01:27:29.779 in their background? I think I find it quite 01:27:29.779 --> 01:27:32.319 challenging sometimes, especially if we introduce 01:27:32.319 --> 01:27:39.159 a new idea. I think if I think back to the beginning 01:27:39.159 --> 01:27:41.760 of our relationship, we kind of had that conversation 01:27:41.760 --> 01:27:44.119 where you kind of shared a lot of information 01:27:44.119 --> 01:27:48.479 about what had happened to you and some kind 01:27:48.479 --> 01:27:53.079 of areas to explore, I suppose. And we had that 01:27:53.079 --> 01:27:55.220 conversation, gave me the list, and I was just... 01:27:55.319 --> 01:27:57.899 like horrified horrified on two levels but not 01:27:57.899 --> 01:28:00.739 in a kind of negative or a critical way horrified 01:28:00.739 --> 01:28:04.439 because that happened but also horrified by the 01:28:04.439 --> 01:28:08.319 idea that i might weaponize that and use it yeah 01:28:08.319 --> 01:28:11.039 that was a that that kind of emotional sadism 01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:15.079 was a really new thing right yes to me and it's 01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:16.739 a lot more challenging than just hitting someone 01:28:16.739 --> 01:28:19.640 harder yeah there is there is a world of difference 01:28:19.640 --> 01:28:23.600 between calling someone a filthy slut Yes. And 01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:26.800 targeting someone as a person in the way that 01:28:26.800 --> 01:28:30.380 they have previously been targeted. Yeah. I mean, 01:28:30.399 --> 01:28:31.979 the privilege of being given that information. 01:28:32.100 --> 01:28:34.880 Yeah. But the responsibility of using it. Yeah, 01:28:35.039 --> 01:28:37.500 absolutely. So, yeah, there was absolutely that 01:28:37.500 --> 01:28:40.800 level of like, holy shit, this is a big deal 01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:43.979 to be trusted with this level of information, 01:28:44.119 --> 01:28:50.699 this level of access. And I think I'm still doing 01:28:50.699 --> 01:28:54.710 it, to be fair. kind of working through some 01:28:54.710 --> 01:28:58.289 of that and we'll try something and we'll poke 01:28:58.289 --> 01:29:00.189 at a particular drama or we'll push at a particular 01:29:00.189 --> 01:29:03.590 topic. And then I will have that kind of, I think, 01:29:03.609 --> 01:29:06.310 perfectly natural response of going, what kind 01:29:06.310 --> 01:29:12.569 of fucking monster am I? And then retreat a little 01:29:12.569 --> 01:29:15.729 bit. Yeah. And then try again and then retreat 01:29:15.729 --> 01:29:18.170 a little. That's brave. It sounds brave. It sounds 01:29:18.170 --> 01:29:22.279 quite hard. It is because in the moment, you 01:29:22.279 --> 01:29:24.720 know not ashamed to say in the moment it's really 01:29:24.720 --> 01:29:27.020 exciting and really hot and really and again 01:29:27.020 --> 01:29:30.819 it's that kind of display of of of power i think 01:29:30.819 --> 01:29:34.020 which is a real core of a lot of my kinks it's 01:29:34.020 --> 01:29:37.939 the moments after yeah where i go holy shit that 01:29:37.939 --> 01:29:42.699 just happened didn't it um and you cariesel because 01:29:42.699 --> 01:29:46.020 they are incredibly resilient just bounces back 01:29:46.020 --> 01:29:48.680 right it's like oh yeah let's get some let's 01:29:48.680 --> 01:29:50.760 get some greasy meats from the internet right 01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:54.439 you know yeah like my aftercare needs for emotional 01:29:54.439 --> 01:29:57.539 masochism are very very low generally i feel 01:29:57.539 --> 01:29:59.739 like i'm on a high afterwards yeah that's interesting 01:29:59.739 --> 01:30:02.560 i mean and i relate like i'm not like i'm not 01:30:02.560 --> 01:30:05.220 in a kind of weepy post subspace state generally 01:30:05.220 --> 01:30:07.439 i kind of feel like i've bungee jumped it's lovely 01:30:07.439 --> 01:30:10.960 and the feeling of achievement you know it's 01:30:10.960 --> 01:30:13.779 not like i feel victimized it feels good yeah 01:30:13.779 --> 01:30:18.000 um has i mean because this does sound edgy and 01:30:18.000 --> 01:30:21.420 has it ever gone wrong like I wouldn't necessarily 01:30:21.420 --> 01:30:24.479 say gone wrong. I think it is... There's been 01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:26.100 once that I can think of where it hit me a lot 01:30:26.100 --> 01:30:29.180 harder than I ever expected it to, where because 01:30:29.180 --> 01:30:31.500 of the way that we negotiate things is we'll 01:30:31.500 --> 01:30:34.079 talk about what's on the table, but the where 01:30:34.079 --> 01:30:36.239 and the when and the how is very much left to 01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:39.220 mix. And there'd been about an 18 month gap between 01:30:39.220 --> 01:30:41.359 negotiating a scene and that actually landing. 01:30:41.399 --> 01:30:44.100 So it was completely unexpected for me. And it 01:30:44.100 --> 01:30:46.600 was probably the most emotionally sadistic thing 01:30:46.600 --> 01:30:49.060 that they'd ever done. And I was absolutely fine 01:30:49.060 --> 01:30:50.779 in the immediate aftermath of the scene, but 01:30:50.779 --> 01:30:53.609 I got... like my mental health had a little bit 01:30:53.609 --> 01:30:56.560 of a dip the next day and it wasn't major it 01:30:56.560 --> 01:30:58.460 wasn't long lasting and it wasn't unsafe but 01:30:58.460 --> 01:31:00.899 it was unexpected and i ended up having to like 01:31:00.899 --> 01:31:03.619 take a half day off work and um they took me 01:31:03.619 --> 01:31:06.659 to the metro center to buy a squeaky pig toy 01:31:06.659 --> 01:31:10.680 that soothes me very much um so it was like something 01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:15.399 where the pig that cures ptsd ptsd um so yeah 01:31:15.399 --> 01:31:16.960 it was definitely a time where my aftercare needs 01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:18.960 were higher than expected and that sort of has 01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:20.920 gone into our risk management moving forward 01:31:20.920 --> 01:31:22.920 of like okay if we're going to poke really hard 01:31:22.920 --> 01:31:24.939 at something that we haven't done before Like, 01:31:24.960 --> 01:31:27.399 maybe not on a Tuesday night. Make sure that 01:31:27.399 --> 01:31:28.680 you're going to be around to keep an eye on me 01:31:28.680 --> 01:31:30.159 for a day or two afterwards, that kind of thing. 01:31:30.220 --> 01:31:32.560 So we've just sort of adjusted course with the 01:31:32.560 --> 01:31:35.819 really edgy stuff. But it's not been anything... 01:31:35.819 --> 01:31:37.439 There's not been any scenes we've done that I've 01:31:37.439 --> 01:31:40.140 regretted. And generally, my experience has been 01:31:40.140 --> 01:31:42.239 that my limits are further out than most dominants. 01:31:42.340 --> 01:31:44.640 Like, for us to find the level that I'm not comfortable 01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:47.399 with would require us to go well past the point 01:31:47.399 --> 01:31:49.399 that Mix isn't comfortable with. So it's very 01:31:49.399 --> 01:31:52.239 unlikely to happen for me. Yeah, I mean, honestly, 01:31:52.340 --> 01:31:54.470 that... I mean, I'm sorry it happened, but that 01:31:54.470 --> 01:31:57.310 really doesn't sound too bad. Yeah. If that was 01:31:57.310 --> 01:31:59.909 the worst when you've been deliberately poking 01:31:59.909 --> 01:32:02.729 at trauma. I mean, that seems great. That seems 01:32:02.729 --> 01:32:06.130 like a very good result. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. 01:32:07.770 --> 01:32:10.550 I think a part of that is down to mix being as 01:32:10.550 --> 01:32:12.409 much of an overthinker as they are. That sort 01:32:12.409 --> 01:32:15.710 of guilt and that fear of going too far can sometimes 01:32:15.710 --> 01:32:18.289 be a hindrance for you. But a lot of the time, 01:32:18.310 --> 01:32:20.130 it's also a really good safety factor that it 01:32:20.130 --> 01:32:21.909 doesn't allow us to just impulsively jump into 01:32:21.909 --> 01:32:24.229 things because they need their two months processing 01:32:24.229 --> 01:32:26.189 time to figure out how they feel about themselves 01:32:26.189 --> 01:32:27.829 as a human being. And by the time they've done 01:32:27.829 --> 01:32:30.329 that, we've done our risk assessment. Yeah, yeah. 01:32:30.409 --> 01:32:34.369 No, I can absolutely see that. It's a very, it 01:32:34.369 --> 01:32:38.199 feels for me like a very gradual. kind of escalation 01:32:38.199 --> 01:32:41.020 doesn't it it's it's i don't think it's as gradual 01:32:41.020 --> 01:32:42.960 as you think i think if you look back to where 01:32:42.960 --> 01:32:45.020 we started with this kind of trauma play and 01:32:45.020 --> 01:32:47.680 emotional sadism the stuff you're doing now would 01:32:47.680 --> 01:32:50.880 horrify the you from two years ago that's true 01:32:50.880 --> 01:32:53.800 that yeah that's and probably impressed them 01:32:53.800 --> 01:33:00.060 quite a lot what kind of monster are you but 01:33:00.060 --> 01:33:01.859 i think some of the stuff that we're doing at 01:33:01.859 --> 01:33:04.210 the moment about, in theory, ramping up some 01:33:04.210 --> 01:33:06.649 crueler aspects of eye dynamic. I suppose that's 01:33:06.649 --> 01:33:10.050 taken me a little while to get my head around. 01:33:10.810 --> 01:33:12.750 It's one of those things, it's really hot in 01:33:12.750 --> 01:33:16.850 theory, and I want to give it a go. It's that 01:33:16.850 --> 01:33:19.649 overthinking to the point of paralysis sometimes 01:33:19.649 --> 01:33:21.470 and kind of thinking about all of the different 01:33:21.470 --> 01:33:23.949 angles and what might be... too much what might 01:33:23.949 --> 01:33:26.649 be not enough i suppose and how do we manage 01:33:26.649 --> 01:33:28.949 that i think yeah i think it's when we take it 01:33:28.949 --> 01:33:31.529 out of controlled individual scenes and start 01:33:31.529 --> 01:33:33.409 integrating it into the dynamic that's where 01:33:33.409 --> 01:33:35.250 it feels less controllable for you and that's 01:33:35.250 --> 01:33:37.029 where yeah where you're thinking through risk 01:33:37.029 --> 01:33:39.350 a lot yeah that sounds that sounds like it would 01:33:39.350 --> 01:33:42.029 be pretty challenging i know one of the things 01:33:42.029 --> 01:33:45.149 you don't do i don't think is you don't kind 01:33:45.149 --> 01:33:49.090 of take refuge in role playing so you're being 01:33:49.090 --> 01:33:51.670 someone else yeah we're basically like versions 01:33:51.670 --> 01:33:53.710 of ourselves all the time obviously not always 01:33:53.710 --> 01:33:55.729 the exact same versions of ourselves that you 01:33:55.729 --> 01:33:58.449 see on a day -to -day basis but we're not like 01:33:58.449 --> 01:34:00.569 a nurse or a pirate or anything like that we're 01:34:00.569 --> 01:34:03.350 just just just tweaked versions of who we are 01:34:03.640 --> 01:34:06.199 And I think maybe one of the ways I have avoided 01:34:06.199 --> 01:34:09.260 stuff that feels too resonant from my past is 01:34:09.260 --> 01:34:12.079 by taking refuge in roles. Because, yeah, if 01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:14.539 you're being a pirate, you didn't have a bad 01:34:14.539 --> 01:34:18.220 childhood. Are we saying the pirates generally 01:34:18.220 --> 01:34:20.520 had great childhoods? Yeah, happy childhoods. 01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:28.140 Okay. They grew up on a boat. Yes, exactly. Foreign 01:34:28.140 --> 01:34:32.119 travel, dolphin friends. It would be fine. Desert 01:34:32.119 --> 01:34:35.500 Island, mint. Yes. I know something you've done 01:34:35.500 --> 01:34:36.939 differently for me. Stop me if you don't want 01:34:36.939 --> 01:34:38.760 this on the podcast. You've done some therapy. 01:34:39.079 --> 01:34:41.399 Yes. How have you found that as a kinky person? 01:34:41.680 --> 01:34:44.640 Because I have done a little bit, but not very 01:34:44.640 --> 01:34:46.479 much. And I know that that's sometimes tricky 01:34:46.479 --> 01:34:49.239 for people to navigate. Yes, I got really lucky 01:34:49.239 --> 01:34:51.960 because I tried having therapy a few years before 01:34:51.960 --> 01:34:55.319 the time that I found a therapist who was actually 01:34:55.319 --> 01:34:58.260 good for me. And actually, in the time I saw 01:34:58.260 --> 01:35:00.239 my first therapist, which was only probably... 01:35:00.460 --> 01:35:02.539 like four or five sessions. I never actually 01:35:02.539 --> 01:35:04.640 told her I was kinky and I never told her the 01:35:04.640 --> 01:35:08.060 sort of modelling I did. And I was aware that 01:35:08.060 --> 01:35:10.140 partly it was because she wasn't asking the right 01:35:10.140 --> 01:35:12.199 questions, I guess, but partly it was that I 01:35:12.199 --> 01:35:15.960 didn't know how to explain that. So I stopped 01:35:15.960 --> 01:35:18.819 having therapy and I only started again when 01:35:18.819 --> 01:35:21.279 I got a personal recommendation from someone, 01:35:21.439 --> 01:35:25.020 someone who I know slightly, who had this therapist 01:35:25.020 --> 01:35:28.699 and this guy who recommended her, he is kinky. 01:35:28.859 --> 01:35:32.100 So he had outed himself as kinky to her, and 01:35:32.100 --> 01:35:35.619 he said her response was entirely positive. So 01:35:35.619 --> 01:35:39.199 I felt safe just from the outset, saying, okay, 01:35:39.279 --> 01:35:42.520 I'm a BDSM model. That's what I do. That's also 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:46.539 my sexual identity. And so I personally was totally 01:35:46.539 --> 01:35:50.560 fine. So I'm always trying to recommend my therapist 01:35:50.560 --> 01:35:53.199 to kinky people because I know that she's never 01:35:53.199 --> 01:35:56.020 even questioned whether that might be a part 01:35:56.020 --> 01:35:58.579 of my life that I should look at and adjust at 01:35:58.579 --> 01:36:01.479 all. We've looked at many, many other aspects 01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:04.020 of my life, but she's just accepted what I've 01:36:04.020 --> 01:36:07.239 said about my kinky life being... one of the 01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:09.159 healthiest and best bits of my life she's just 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:11.479 accepted that and that's been really valuable 01:36:11.479 --> 01:36:13.699 because i've needed to talk about lots of stuff 01:36:13.699 --> 01:36:15.899 but i don't need to talk about whether my job 01:36:15.899 --> 01:36:19.180 is bad for me or whether my sexuality is a result 01:36:19.180 --> 01:36:21.659 of bad stuff happening in my past and that's 01:36:21.659 --> 01:36:24.260 been really nice and affirming so it's been incredibly 01:36:24.260 --> 01:36:27.199 helpful for me but i'm sad to hear that that 01:36:27.199 --> 01:36:29.720 is not everyone's experience of therapy at all 01:36:29.720 --> 01:36:31.819 so yeah i had some therapy like i've only had 01:36:32.140 --> 01:36:34.220 a very little bit of therapy after me and my 01:36:34.220 --> 01:36:36.579 ex broke up because at the point i got referred 01:36:36.579 --> 01:36:38.699 into therapy i was in crisis and by the time 01:36:38.699 --> 01:36:40.960 i got seen by a therapist i was not like it was 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:43.420 quite a brief crisis like i was just having some 01:36:43.420 --> 01:36:45.659 very strong emotions without the emotional resilience 01:36:45.659 --> 01:36:48.699 to handle them um and they didn't really know 01:36:48.699 --> 01:36:51.470 what to do with me because Because I'm very self 01:36:51.470 --> 01:36:53.609 -aware and therapists don't always love that. 01:36:53.890 --> 01:36:55.970 And I have a lot of coping strategies. And I 01:36:55.970 --> 01:36:57.449 was in a pretty stable place by the time I got 01:36:57.449 --> 01:36:58.670 into therapy. So they're like, well, why are 01:36:58.670 --> 01:37:00.390 you here? And I was like, well, because next 01:37:00.390 --> 01:37:02.210 time I go through an inconvenience in my life, 01:37:02.229 --> 01:37:04.369 I don't want to want to die about it. Like, can 01:37:04.369 --> 01:37:07.069 we teach me to not get to that stage? They didn't 01:37:07.069 --> 01:37:08.829 know how to do that. So I wasn't there for very 01:37:08.829 --> 01:37:10.630 long. But they were great about King. Like, they 01:37:10.630 --> 01:37:12.220 didn't... They didn't have a negative reaction 01:37:12.220 --> 01:37:14.899 to that. Sort of the, what we spent the sessions 01:37:14.899 --> 01:37:17.420 I had doing was kind of going through like all 01:37:17.420 --> 01:37:19.960 of my life story, basically just so I could get 01:37:19.960 --> 01:37:21.800 it all out to somebody. And that seemed to help 01:37:21.800 --> 01:37:24.960 a little bit. That was still like felt valuable. 01:37:25.340 --> 01:37:27.640 And so kink was a part of that and they were 01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:29.100 really positive and really encouraging about 01:37:29.100 --> 01:37:31.260 it. Like that's nice. You figured out what you 01:37:31.260 --> 01:37:33.600 want in relationships. That's really good. And 01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:35.819 at the time I had some fears that because I'd 01:37:35.819 --> 01:37:37.600 been so compatible with my ex -partner, I was 01:37:37.600 --> 01:37:39.319 worried I wouldn't be able to find a compatible 01:37:39.319 --> 01:37:41.199 partner again with all the stuff I'm into. You 01:37:41.199 --> 01:37:43.300 seem to have achieved it. I did. Yeah, definitely. 01:37:44.700 --> 01:37:46.960 And the therapist seemed to just get that, as 01:37:46.960 --> 01:37:48.739 far as I know, wasn't kinky herself, but immediately 01:37:48.739 --> 01:37:50.800 understood why that would be a fear for me if 01:37:50.800 --> 01:37:52.899 I have very non -standard desires. Like, of course, 01:37:52.899 --> 01:37:55.560 that's going to be scary to be single again suddenly 01:37:55.560 --> 01:37:57.260 after thinking you've got it all sorted out. 01:37:57.340 --> 01:37:59.939 I think it's getting that way more and more where 01:37:59.939 --> 01:38:01.840 people are more aware of the need to be like 01:38:01.840 --> 01:38:04.579 that. Like, I know you said you had, like, surgery 01:38:04.579 --> 01:38:08.779 and you told the medical team they were going 01:38:08.779 --> 01:38:10.340 to see stuff on your body that was going to make 01:38:10.340 --> 01:38:12.640 it clear. Just the fact that you did that and 01:38:12.640 --> 01:38:15.930 their response was, was absolutely fine it was 01:38:15.930 --> 01:38:18.949 really nice thing to hear yeah like medical experiences 01:38:18.949 --> 01:38:20.489 like that have been really positive that was 01:38:20.489 --> 01:38:22.949 when i was getting my tubal ligation done and 01:38:22.949 --> 01:38:25.270 the surgeon's only question was were there any 01:38:25.270 --> 01:38:26.729 scars around the points where she wanted to cut 01:38:26.729 --> 01:38:28.390 into me and she had a look to check that that 01:38:28.390 --> 01:38:31.250 wasn't going to be an issue um it was a bit funnier 01:38:31.250 --> 01:38:32.729 after the operation though because someone who 01:38:32.729 --> 01:38:34.789 hadn't been involved in my initial sort of care 01:38:34.789 --> 01:38:36.670 team was looking after me as i came around and 01:38:36.670 --> 01:38:38.369 she needed to roll me over to check if there 01:38:38.369 --> 01:38:39.850 were any kind of pressure sores or anything while 01:38:39.850 --> 01:38:42.899 i'd been unconscious and i was still loopy from 01:38:42.899 --> 01:38:44.840 all the drugs and couldn't communicate very well 01:38:44.840 --> 01:38:46.800 so she's like i'm gonna roll you over now and 01:38:46.800 --> 01:38:50.399 i went oh ho ho you're going to see something 01:38:50.399 --> 01:38:54.899 and she went what am i gonna see and i was like 01:38:54.899 --> 01:38:57.949 you're gonna see something Oh my God. And she 01:38:57.949 --> 01:38:59.829 rolled me over and what she saw was the brand 01:38:59.829 --> 01:39:02.430 across my lower back that says fuck pig. That 01:39:02.430 --> 01:39:04.970 is something. And I just lay there cackling because 01:39:04.970 --> 01:39:09.449 I was high as balls. It's amazing. So she was 01:39:09.449 --> 01:39:12.189 definitely surprised. Yes. Years and years and 01:39:12.189 --> 01:39:15.229 years ago, I had an appointment which I didn't, 01:39:15.229 --> 01:39:16.869 I wasn't expecting to have to take any of my 01:39:16.869 --> 01:39:19.609 clothes off. I thought it was like. they were 01:39:19.609 --> 01:39:22.149 meeting me to talk to me about a physical thing. 01:39:22.310 --> 01:39:25.069 And then unexpectedly they wanted, I think I 01:39:25.069 --> 01:39:27.510 need to take my top off or something. And my 01:39:27.510 --> 01:39:29.770 husband had written his name on like the back 01:39:29.770 --> 01:39:34.069 of my neck. And I'd forgotten. And they were 01:39:34.069 --> 01:39:36.010 like, what? Because it's not a tattoo because 01:39:36.010 --> 01:39:37.869 it was a mess. They were like, what is this? 01:39:37.970 --> 01:39:40.890 And I was like, my husband was writing on me. 01:39:41.010 --> 01:39:43.189 And we just didn't mention why he might have 01:39:43.189 --> 01:39:48.449 been doing that. We just ignored it. But I really 01:39:48.449 --> 01:39:51.770 like to think that this is becoming less taboo. 01:39:52.050 --> 01:39:56.470 And that... different lifestyles are being accepted 01:39:56.470 --> 01:39:59.029 a bit more readily without medical professionals 01:39:59.029 --> 01:40:02.130 thinking they need to do an intervention yeah 01:40:02.130 --> 01:40:04.449 the most i've ever had is people just saying 01:40:04.449 --> 01:40:06.189 like i just need to check is has that all been 01:40:06.189 --> 01:40:07.729 some from something consensual or do you want 01:40:07.729 --> 01:40:09.489 to talk about anything which is a good thing 01:40:09.489 --> 01:40:11.069 for them to do good to open that conversation 01:40:11.069 --> 01:40:13.489 absolutely um i had that when i went for a cervical 01:40:13.489 --> 01:40:17.170 screening test um i'd got really uh from my first 01:40:17.170 --> 01:40:19.430 hookup with mix actually massive bruises down 01:40:19.430 --> 01:40:21.489 both inner thighs like fully black it was great 01:40:21.489 --> 01:40:23.949 i don't bruise like that anymore i'm now but 01:40:23.949 --> 01:40:26.310 it was great at the time um the person doing 01:40:26.310 --> 01:40:28.550 the the test just said like i just i have to 01:40:28.550 --> 01:40:30.489 ask is that from something consensual and i was 01:40:30.489 --> 01:40:32.390 like yeah yeah and then she told me a story about 01:40:32.390 --> 01:40:34.489 how once she'd had a patient come in to have 01:40:34.489 --> 01:40:36.850 a cervical screening done and got there and realized 01:40:36.850 --> 01:40:39.449 that her labia were padlocked together and that 01:40:39.449 --> 01:40:44.750 her boyfriend had the key oh my god and had to 01:40:44.750 --> 01:40:51.199 leave amazing I do sometimes think about where 01:40:51.199 --> 01:40:53.979 we might be in like 50 years time as a society 01:40:53.979 --> 01:40:57.699 with kink acceptance, because I would have thought 01:40:57.699 --> 01:41:00.500 it would just get better and better. But because 01:41:00.500 --> 01:41:02.680 of the political situation in the world at the 01:41:02.680 --> 01:41:04.199 moment, you know, it's not getting better and 01:41:04.199 --> 01:41:07.520 better in the US at the moment. And so we quite 01:41:07.520 --> 01:41:09.640 often follow the US to some extent. So I don't 01:41:09.640 --> 01:41:11.760 want to assume it's just going to be just lovely 01:41:11.760 --> 01:41:13.960 open season with everyone being open. But I would 01:41:13.960 --> 01:41:16.039 love to believe that it might be. And stories 01:41:16.039 --> 01:41:17.880 like that kind of make me think, yeah, maybe, 01:41:17.979 --> 01:41:20.039 maybe. I think overall things are moving in the 01:41:20.039 --> 01:41:21.960 right direction. I think the thing that's tricky 01:41:21.960 --> 01:41:25.399 is like a lot of Gen Z sort of experience their 01:41:25.399 --> 01:41:27.659 kind of sexual awakenings during COVID time and 01:41:27.659 --> 01:41:29.739 have been sort of conditioned by that to be quite 01:41:29.739 --> 01:41:31.460 fearful of sex. And a lot of the most negative 01:41:31.460 --> 01:41:33.979 reactions they get are from people a decade younger 01:41:33.979 --> 01:41:37.199 than me. And that's concerning. That is worrying 01:41:37.199 --> 01:41:39.539 because that indicates the direction things might 01:41:39.539 --> 01:41:41.600 go. And I think it sort of circles back to what 01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:43.680 we talked about earlier about impact versus optics 01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:46.449 with feminism. I think because of... Because 01:41:46.449 --> 01:41:48.470 of social media being something that now most 01:41:48.470 --> 01:41:51.270 people have grown up on, the shift has happened 01:41:51.270 --> 01:41:54.029 from your impact to your optics because being 01:41:54.029 --> 01:41:56.170 sort of cancelled or being publicly criticised 01:41:56.170 --> 01:41:57.930 or being like publicly dogpiled used to be a 01:41:57.930 --> 01:41:59.470 thing that just happened to celebrities and now 01:41:59.470 --> 01:42:02.050 it happens to teenagers. And I think what that 01:42:02.050 --> 01:42:03.989 does to people's headspace where we're constantly 01:42:03.989 --> 01:42:05.989 on, constantly performing, constantly trying 01:42:05.989 --> 01:42:08.729 to demonstrate our values and our beliefs and 01:42:08.729 --> 01:42:12.060 what we're trying to do with our lives. That 01:42:12.060 --> 01:42:14.399 takes people's focus into the optics very, very 01:42:14.399 --> 01:42:16.880 strongly. And then that leads to the policing 01:42:16.880 --> 01:42:19.239 and that leads to the fear of being weird and 01:42:19.239 --> 01:42:22.439 fear of being cringe and fear of doing something 01:42:22.439 --> 01:42:24.300 that's against social norms. And I think the 01:42:24.300 --> 01:42:27.819 impact of that is potentially terrifying. No, 01:42:27.819 --> 01:42:31.699 no, totally. I agree. I just really hope that 01:42:31.699 --> 01:42:35.159 in 20 years time going in for surgery, like you 01:42:35.159 --> 01:42:37.279 wouldn't even have to worry about whether people 01:42:37.279 --> 01:42:40.460 would respond. Yeah, I just I hope that's the 01:42:40.460 --> 01:42:43.199 direction we end up going in. Yeah. So just a 01:42:43.199 --> 01:42:47.140 slight change of tone for this one. You're not 01:42:47.140 --> 01:42:49.539 going to do one of your smooth podcast segways 01:42:49.539 --> 01:42:51.020 mix. You're just going to change topic abruptly. 01:42:51.020 --> 01:42:53.260 I'm just going to abruptly change topic because 01:42:53.260 --> 01:42:56.779 I can't quite work out how I get from talking 01:42:56.779 --> 01:42:59.640 about trauma and the hopes for the future generations 01:42:59.640 --> 01:43:04.739 into talking about your books. Because as well 01:43:04.739 --> 01:43:08.939 as being a famous model, you are also. also a 01:43:08.939 --> 01:43:11.899 published author i am so tell us about that i 01:43:11.899 --> 01:43:15.180 wrote my first book which is a memoir called 01:43:15.180 --> 01:43:18.880 playing to lose um in during covid and it was 01:43:18.880 --> 01:43:23.159 published in 2023 and i have just finished my 01:43:23.159 --> 01:43:26.159 second book which is called dirty which is hopefully 01:43:26.159 --> 01:43:29.840 coming out like sometime between May and July 01:43:29.840 --> 01:43:34.739 this year. And Carisel is in this one because 01:43:34.739 --> 01:43:36.699 when I wrote the first one, we weren't in touch. 01:43:36.760 --> 01:43:38.600 So I certainly wasn't going to start like telling 01:43:38.600 --> 01:43:42.140 your story just without permission. And anyway, 01:43:42.140 --> 01:43:46.840 I was telling mine. I am very much the side character 01:43:46.840 --> 01:43:52.039 here. But this time I wrote about a year in my 01:43:52.039 --> 01:43:54.239 life. So it's got lots of stuff about being a 01:43:54.239 --> 01:43:58.390 professional BDSM performer. But one of the things 01:43:58.390 --> 01:44:01.550 we were doing in 2024, which is the year I wrote 01:44:01.550 --> 01:44:04.550 about, was trying to get some sort of resolution, 01:44:04.670 --> 01:44:07.289 some kind of justice for the things we experienced 01:44:07.289 --> 01:44:10.869 as children. So it was a sort of more difficult 01:44:10.869 --> 01:44:13.869 book to write in some ways because it was talking 01:44:13.869 --> 01:44:16.409 about stuff that had been too painful to address 01:44:16.409 --> 01:44:18.649 in my first book. I think I just needed a bit 01:44:18.649 --> 01:44:20.689 more experience as a writer before I was even 01:44:20.689 --> 01:44:24.029 comfortable opening up that much. But also it 01:44:24.029 --> 01:44:28.170 feels... Maybe kind of more of an important book 01:44:28.170 --> 01:44:33.750 to me, even because as a submissive model, I 01:44:33.750 --> 01:44:36.750 think, especially and as a submissive, I've always 01:44:36.750 --> 01:44:39.350 wanted to tell people that I've got a really 01:44:39.350 --> 01:44:41.670 happy background. No, I'm perfect. I'm perfectly 01:44:41.670 --> 01:44:44.949 fine. My background is fine. I'm just kinky because 01:44:44.949 --> 01:44:47.430 I am. It's nothing to do with trauma. And I honestly 01:44:47.430 --> 01:44:50.050 don't think it is because of trauma. But writing 01:44:50.050 --> 01:44:53.050 my second book and kind of admitting to a really 01:44:53.050 --> 01:44:57.310 suboptimal. childhood it it feels like opening 01:44:57.310 --> 01:45:00.609 myself up to accusations that you know i'm a 01:45:00.609 --> 01:45:04.649 sex worker because i'm damaged and or i'm submissive 01:45:04.649 --> 01:45:06.890 because i'm damaged and i've got low self -esteem 01:45:06.890 --> 01:45:10.649 or something so it's it's scary to have written 01:45:10.649 --> 01:45:13.710 but i often think maybe your best creative work 01:45:13.710 --> 01:45:17.449 is the stuff that is challenging and frightening 01:45:17.449 --> 01:45:20.609 to produce so i'm actually really excited about 01:45:20.609 --> 01:45:25.140 coming out um And it's frightening, but that 01:45:25.140 --> 01:45:29.659 feels worthwhile. So yes, happy about it. I think 01:45:29.659 --> 01:45:32.300 for what it's worth, people assume that you are 01:45:32.300 --> 01:45:34.340 submissive and a sex worker because you're damaged, 01:45:34.399 --> 01:45:36.260 regardless of whether you disclose the damage. 01:45:36.279 --> 01:45:38.199 So you might as well. That is absolutely true. 01:45:38.220 --> 01:45:40.380 I found that whether I disclose it or not, I 01:45:40.380 --> 01:45:42.279 get the same reaction. So it's like, fuck it, 01:45:42.319 --> 01:45:45.899 just tell them what happened. Yeah, and I think 01:45:45.899 --> 01:45:48.930 to be able to say... And at this point in my 01:45:48.930 --> 01:45:52.890 life, I have a sex life that delights me and 01:45:52.890 --> 01:45:56.590 romance in my life that makes me feel really 01:45:56.590 --> 01:45:59.409 happy and valued. And my life is OK. My life 01:45:59.409 --> 01:46:01.789 is together. You know, that's true as well. So 01:46:01.789 --> 01:46:04.489 it's not like I'm having to confess to just being 01:46:04.489 --> 01:46:06.250 a massive fuck up and my whole life's been a 01:46:06.250 --> 01:46:08.789 fuck up because of my fucked up childhood. And 01:46:08.789 --> 01:46:12.149 I think hopefully that sends actually quite a 01:46:12.149 --> 01:46:15.130 useful and important message that you can you 01:46:15.130 --> 01:46:18.810 can have come from a non -ideal. place but you 01:46:18.810 --> 01:46:20.909 can end up okay anyway what sort of reaction 01:46:20.909 --> 01:46:24.850 did the did your first book have oh it was really 01:46:24.850 --> 01:46:28.090 lovely because for most of my career the feedback 01:46:28.090 --> 01:46:30.289 i've got has been from people who have masturbated 01:46:30.289 --> 01:46:32.649 to my porn so they do say very nice things but 01:46:32.649 --> 01:46:34.750 basically it's it's variants of oh and then i 01:46:34.750 --> 01:46:40.310 came but the sort of response you get when someone's 01:46:40.310 --> 01:46:44.050 read your book is yeah it tends to be a bit subtler 01:46:44.050 --> 01:46:47.180 a bit more varied so what i mostly got from my 01:46:47.180 --> 01:46:49.979 first book is just a lot of letters from people 01:46:49.979 --> 01:46:52.859 who were ex -jehovah's witnesses or people who'd 01:46:52.859 --> 01:46:55.960 grown up in various religious cults and honestly 01:46:55.960 --> 01:46:59.039 like speaking to those people felt really valuable 01:46:59.039 --> 01:47:02.279 especially i've like some ex -jehovah's witnesses 01:47:02.279 --> 01:47:04.340 who are kinky have got in touch because of course 01:47:04.340 --> 01:47:06.399 it's a big religion there will be there'll be 01:47:06.399 --> 01:47:08.859 a few of us yeah um and being submissive is not 01:47:08.859 --> 01:47:13.039 like a tiny proportion of the population so it 01:47:13.039 --> 01:47:17.319 was just lovely because you know i wanted to 01:47:17.319 --> 01:47:20.779 write a book for the 16 year old i once was and 01:47:20.779 --> 01:47:23.399 so they then to hear from a whole load of people 01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:25.920 who had felt rather similar to me it's definitely 01:47:25.920 --> 01:47:28.220 it's very motivating like once you've got letters 01:47:28.220 --> 01:47:30.689 like that you definitely want to write more I'm 01:47:30.689 --> 01:47:34.010 sure you feel the same yeah like I I never expected 01:47:34.010 --> 01:47:36.250 the the sort of impact that my TikTok has had 01:47:36.250 --> 01:47:38.789 when I started it it started out as just a bit 01:47:38.789 --> 01:47:40.250 of fun and then even once I started answering 01:47:40.250 --> 01:47:42.430 questions and leaning a little bit more educational 01:47:42.430 --> 01:47:44.869 I didn't expect some of the messages I've ended 01:47:44.869 --> 01:47:46.829 up having like really personal things people 01:47:46.829 --> 01:47:48.829 have shared with me and and ways that content 01:47:48.829 --> 01:47:51.770 has been helpful and that does that does feel 01:47:51.770 --> 01:47:54.369 really rewarding. Yes. Keeps you going even when 01:47:54.369 --> 01:47:57.510 it's stressful and annoying and nothing seems 01:47:57.510 --> 01:47:59.810 to be working right. Like it's knowing that you're 01:47:59.810 --> 01:48:01.630 doing positive things for people is great. And 01:48:01.630 --> 01:48:03.930 I think it's really interesting because I consume 01:48:03.930 --> 01:48:07.470 a lot of media. I watch a lot of YouTube and 01:48:07.470 --> 01:48:10.210 the YouTubers I watch, they're really valuable 01:48:10.210 --> 01:48:12.670 to me for all sorts of different reasons. And 01:48:12.670 --> 01:48:15.329 to have consumed so much of other people's product 01:48:15.329 --> 01:48:17.390 and then make your own and have people respond 01:48:17.390 --> 01:48:19.829 to it the way. I respond as an audience member. 01:48:20.489 --> 01:48:23.090 I mean, that's just, it's lovely because it feels 01:48:23.090 --> 01:48:25.189 like I can't have a huge cultural impact, but 01:48:25.189 --> 01:48:29.050 I can have a little drop in the ocean of cultural 01:48:29.050 --> 01:48:33.170 impact. And, you know, I'm really happy about 01:48:33.170 --> 01:48:35.390 that. I know I'm not going to achieve anything 01:48:35.390 --> 01:48:38.850 absolutely massive, but I can have my small effect 01:48:38.850 --> 01:48:41.649 on social change and destigmatisation of kink 01:48:41.649 --> 01:48:44.750 and sex work. And I'm really proud to have that. 01:48:44.890 --> 01:48:48.539 And I like writing. I write in cafes. When I'm 01:48:48.539 --> 01:48:51.300 writing, I'm allowed pots of tea and sometimes 01:48:51.300 --> 01:48:55.899 a cake. It feels quite sophisticated, doesn't 01:48:55.899 --> 01:48:57.399 it? Sitting in a cafe with your laptop. It feels 01:48:57.399 --> 01:49:00.560 very sophisticated. And also it feels so different 01:49:00.560 --> 01:49:02.960 from my day job because I can wear whatever I 01:49:02.960 --> 01:49:06.140 want. I can wear quite a lot of clothes when 01:49:06.140 --> 01:49:08.119 I'm writing. And I like that. I'm always cold. 01:49:08.239 --> 01:49:10.539 So yeah, it's great. That's fair. I'm usually, 01:49:10.659 --> 01:49:13.149 my writing is usually... Typing with my thumbs 01:49:13.149 --> 01:49:15.890 on my phone curled up shrimp style. Oh my gosh. 01:49:16.649 --> 01:49:19.149 Oh, I can never. Wow, that's very impressive. 01:49:19.510 --> 01:49:21.649 I find it a lot easier to write on my phone than 01:49:21.649 --> 01:49:23.329 I do on a laptop or anything now because I'm 01:49:23.329 --> 01:49:25.630 on my phone all the time. So I'm... Oh, wow. 01:49:25.729 --> 01:49:27.609 I cannot imagine writing anything significant 01:49:27.609 --> 01:49:29.949 on my phone. Very, very millennial vibes with 01:49:29.949 --> 01:49:32.210 my writing. Yeah. Usually in the notes app, not 01:49:32.210 --> 01:49:34.529 even a word processor. And using your thumbs. 01:49:34.550 --> 01:49:36.390 Apparently that's massively millennial. Like 01:49:36.390 --> 01:49:38.750 I don't use my thumbs. I use a mix. It depends 01:49:38.750 --> 01:49:40.289 on what I'm typing. Sometimes it is my thumbs. 01:49:40.310 --> 01:49:42.369 Sometimes then I do switch to my fingers. But 01:49:42.369 --> 01:49:44.569 either way, it's always on my phone. Oh gosh, 01:49:44.649 --> 01:49:47.949 that is. So like long form stuff you write. Yeah. 01:49:48.109 --> 01:49:50.409 Jesus. Yeah, literally everything I write. The 01:49:50.409 --> 01:49:52.710 only stuff I do on the laptop is record the podcast. 01:49:53.350 --> 01:49:57.310 Wow. We are very different in that regard. Well, 01:49:57.329 --> 01:50:00.210 we've had this with our age gap where Mix is 01:50:00.210 --> 01:50:02.510 horrified that I will book plane tickets on a 01:50:02.510 --> 01:50:05.920 phone. That is a big internet. They wouldn't 01:50:05.920 --> 01:50:07.939 feel real. Yeah, you're definitely big internet. 01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:12.180 No, small internet. It's fine. It's a miracle 01:50:12.180 --> 01:50:15.739 we went on holiday. It is. I wouldn't trust my 01:50:15.739 --> 01:50:17.920 phone to buy anything that was more than like 01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:21.460 £4 .99. I think it's something that we've talked 01:50:21.460 --> 01:50:25.239 about as well. Because I am a little bit in awe 01:50:25.239 --> 01:50:27.260 of both of you, if I'm honest, because you are 01:50:27.260 --> 01:50:32.140 fabulously famous. thank you I have tried to 01:50:32.140 --> 01:50:34.359 explain to them that I am not famous but it's 01:50:34.359 --> 01:50:38.560 not worked but I think there's something interesting 01:50:38.560 --> 01:50:41.039 about the you said you're not going to have a 01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:43.279 you can have a tiny drop of impact in the cultural 01:50:43.279 --> 01:50:45.640 ocean and I think if you're thinking about it 01:50:45.640 --> 01:50:48.159 at the level of populations and that that might 01:50:48.159 --> 01:50:50.439 be a fair thing to say but same thing that I've 01:50:50.439 --> 01:50:52.859 said to Carisa in the past is there are people 01:50:52.859 --> 01:50:56.039 out there that what you've written or what you've 01:50:56.039 --> 01:50:59.149 recorded and put out there has a massive impact 01:50:59.149 --> 01:51:02.569 on people. So at the individual level, it's huge. 01:51:02.909 --> 01:51:04.970 Yeah, there's that, isn't there, at least. Yeah, 01:51:04.989 --> 01:51:06.890 you can have a really big impact on a few people, 01:51:06.909 --> 01:51:11.289 maybe, rather than a huge impact on loads of 01:51:11.289 --> 01:51:14.810 people like Taylor Swift. I would not want to 01:51:14.810 --> 01:51:16.789 be as famous as Taylor Swift. That just seems 01:51:16.789 --> 01:51:18.930 like a nightmare. I wouldn't be as famous as 01:51:18.930 --> 01:51:22.989 her. That's awful, awful. But I quite would. 01:51:23.210 --> 01:51:25.510 I think, like, when I was, like, a teenager, 01:51:25.729 --> 01:51:28.770 I thought I wanted that. But as soon as you start 01:51:28.770 --> 01:51:31.550 having any level of public attention, I've just 01:51:31.550 --> 01:51:33.970 realised, like, I don't want this scaled up. 01:51:34.189 --> 01:51:37.329 Okay. I am at the exact level of famous I want 01:51:37.329 --> 01:51:39.609 to be, which is not actually famous at all. Like, 01:51:39.609 --> 01:51:41.310 that is very lucky because you get recognised, 01:51:41.329 --> 01:51:43.550 but you get recognised in environments where 01:51:43.550 --> 01:51:47.109 people... are a bit like you yeah like small 01:51:47.109 --> 01:51:49.430 numbers of people every now and again yeah and 01:51:49.430 --> 01:51:52.510 they're pretty chill mostly yes um no one has 01:51:52.510 --> 01:51:54.949 broken into my home and slept in my bed for example 01:51:54.949 --> 01:52:00.029 yeah a policeman at birmingham new street recognized 01:52:00.029 --> 01:52:02.630 me and because it doesn't happen all the time 01:52:02.630 --> 01:52:05.850 i really like it and so i think i was too effusive 01:52:05.850 --> 01:52:07.569 and i think he started to regret that he'd said 01:52:07.569 --> 01:52:11.989 anything Because I think I got quite excited 01:52:11.989 --> 01:52:14.090 because he was in a police uniform. So I was 01:52:14.090 --> 01:52:16.529 like, oh, are you going to arrest me? And I could 01:52:16.529 --> 01:52:21.670 see him just dying. So I think I cured him by 01:52:21.670 --> 01:52:27.890 saying hello to everyone. It's just, it always 01:52:27.890 --> 01:52:29.829 makes me so happy. I feel like surely I'd be 01:52:29.829 --> 01:52:36.710 more happy if this happened ten times. So I wanted 01:52:36.710 --> 01:52:38.369 to ask, you mentioned the next book is coming 01:52:38.369 --> 01:52:40.949 out sort of in the next couple of months, like 01:52:40.949 --> 01:52:43.810 May, June kind of time. Where can people find 01:52:43.810 --> 01:52:45.829 you if they want your first book and anything 01:52:45.829 --> 01:52:48.949 else that you're creating? So my website is Ariel 01:52:48.949 --> 01:52:51.789 Anderson Author. So you just need to spell Anderson 01:52:51.789 --> 01:52:55.750 with two S's, E -N, or honestly, if you just 01:52:55.750 --> 01:52:58.359 search Ariel Anderson. on Google. And if you 01:52:58.359 --> 01:53:01.380 spell it wrong, it still comes up. So my website 01:53:01.380 --> 01:53:04.039 has links. Also, you can find me on Twitter slash 01:53:04.039 --> 01:53:07.600 X. I'm at Ariel Anderson and then you'll find 01:53:07.600 --> 01:53:09.819 my links to everything. Oh, I'm on Substack, 01:53:09.819 --> 01:53:13.220 which I love very much. So just search Ariel 01:53:13.220 --> 01:53:16.659 Anderson Substack and I will appear and I advertise 01:53:16.659 --> 01:53:19.300 and link to where you can buy my books from all 01:53:19.300 --> 01:53:21.500 of those places. I will put some links in the 01:53:21.500 --> 01:53:23.600 description of the podcast also. Thank you. You 01:53:23.600 --> 01:53:25.239 are allowed to promote your porn here if you 01:53:25.239 --> 01:53:26.739 want to. You're being very polite, being like, 01:53:26.840 --> 01:53:28.479 I do books, I do books. Oh, bless you. Thank 01:53:28.479 --> 01:53:30.119 you. You are allowed to promote your main job. 01:53:30.640 --> 01:53:33.399 If you find me on X slash Twitter, you will also 01:53:33.399 --> 01:53:38.460 see all of my porn. you're welcome that is pretty 01:53:38.460 --> 01:53:41.159 much why anyone is still on x right it's the 01:53:41.159 --> 01:53:42.779 only place where there's loads of porn so people 01:53:42.779 --> 01:53:47.399 know i know and it's becoming so unsavory i think 01:53:47.399 --> 01:53:51.319 x briefly blocked all of the porn stuff and oh 01:53:51.319 --> 01:53:54.329 until you age verified yeah and honestly not 01:53:54.329 --> 01:53:56.609 having to see all of my friends' vaginas for 01:53:56.609 --> 01:53:59.770 a few days, it was quite nice. And I thought 01:53:59.770 --> 01:54:01.869 that's not how I should feel, but actually it 01:54:01.869 --> 01:54:04.350 can be a bit relentless. So I am relentlessly 01:54:04.350 --> 01:54:06.390 pornographic on X, so don't come and look for 01:54:06.390 --> 01:54:10.670 me unless that is what you are okay with. Amazing. 01:54:11.199 --> 01:54:13.420 Well, thank you so much for joining us. This 01:54:13.420 --> 01:54:15.380 has been really good. I feel like we definitely 01:54:15.380 --> 01:54:18.319 diverted loads, as I knew we would, because when 01:54:18.319 --> 01:54:21.140 we get together, we just trauma dump and overshare. 01:54:21.300 --> 01:54:24.779 And Mick sits in the corner vibrating in entertainment 01:54:24.779 --> 01:54:29.439 or horror, hard to tell. A little bit of both. 01:54:30.199 --> 01:54:32.000 But we've kept you included this time. There 01:54:32.000 --> 01:54:34.279 was less of the dissociating and more of the 01:54:34.279 --> 01:54:37.369 participating. Yeah, it's been really good. Thank 01:54:37.369 --> 01:54:40.670 you for having me. It makes me feel like a millennial 01:54:40.670 --> 01:54:45.789 to be on a millennials podcast. Thank you so 01:54:45.789 --> 01:54:58.369 much. Thanks for listening to this week's episode 01:54:58.369 --> 01:55:00.670 of Don't Scare the Newbies. You can support us 01:55:00.670 --> 01:55:02.850 on Patreon for a whole extra episode every month 01:55:02.850 --> 01:55:05.229 and head to carizal .com for my blog and links 01:55:05.229 --> 01:55:07.720 to everywhere else you can follow me. See you 01:55:07.720 --> 01:55:08.260 next time.