Off to a great start, I've just drooled wine
all over myself. Awesome. Extremely professional.
Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizel,
a lifestyle submissive and a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizel's dominant, who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we have a guest.
Ariel Anderson is here to talk to us about sex
work, trauma, kink and lots of other things you
know how we like to divert. Woohoo! So welcome,
Ariel. Thank you very much for having me. I love
when we have a guest and you immediately see
the fear as soon as the recording actually starts.
It's like one minute intro. It goes from completely
chill to, oh, fuck, it's happening. I think I
have a special voice. Same. Yeah. 100 % got a
podcast voice. And I don't know what you're meant
to do about that. I think it's just innate. Can't
help it. I have a podcast voice and I have a
TikTok voice and they're not the same voice.
They're not the same. I think my TikTok voice
might be my customer service voice. Oh, I have
a voice like a sex voice and a YouTube voice.
Have you figured out which your podcast voice
is yet? No, I think I might have to do a little
bit of both. My sex voice is very slow. So this
is a four hour episode, you know. It's because
of the sex voice. So do you want to introduce
yourself, let us know who you are, as if we already
know. Thank you. I'm Ariel Anderson. I am a BDSM
performer. I specialise in submissive work and
I've been doing it 23 years, which makes me basically
like the grandmother of BDSM models. And although...
I do BDSM primarily because that's my kink. I
do do a lot of other kinks because I'm hired
to do them. And until probably maybe seven or
eight years ago, I probably wouldn't have really
called myself a sex worker because all my work
was photographic modelling and that kind of sits
in a... sort of grey area between, you know,
is it sex work or not? Sometimes it feels like
it is, sometimes it feels like it isn't. But
in the last seven or eight years, I've been doing
a lot more privately commissioned work for specific
customers who can't find porn that matches their
interests. And so I'm working much more directly
with people, giving them a sexual experience,
although it's on video. So these days, I would
very squarely describe myself as a sex worker.
And I guess in the time I've been doing it, the
term sex worker has kind of expanded to encompass
a lot more different kinds of jobs. So these
days, I feel really happy and quite proud of
being that. But if I tell people I'm a sex worker,
they often still think that that means I'm an
escort. And then I have to tell them they can't
hire me. It definitely has got broader over the
last few years. Because I used to be a sex worker,
and I remember when I first started sex work,
almost no one used that term. It was almost like
the very politically correct term that you used
if you were trying really hard not to offend,
but no sex workers I knew used it. No. Yeah,
and I sometimes wonder what escorts would think
of someone who's in such a kind of gentrified
aspect of it, where there's no danger, I'm not
meeting real people, any of that. um photographers
aren't real people no absolutely not um because
i sometimes think i would describe myself as
a porn star but then i sometimes think would
a hardcore porn star just be like oh for fuck's
sake you amateur like get out um like you are
not a porn star but but i feel like we share
the stigma so it feels kind of stronger to to
all be together and and say we're the same thing
and we've you've Told us lots of things about
you, but not told people the thing that they
will probably be really interested in is that
you're also my sister. I was wondering if we
had just decided not to mention that. We're just
not going to acknowledge it. Both of you have
been talking. I was like, there's something missing
here. Well, yes, I did notice we're sitting in
exactly the same way, actually. Yes. See, I always
call this sitting bisexually, but you're straight.
So yeah, it's genetic. Yeah, I think it is. I
think it is. Maybe you're sitting sex workily.
Ah, and that's why you're not sitting the same
way because you have not joined that club. I
wonder if people will hear any similarity in
our voices. I went out of my way to trash the
accent, so probably not. And I went to drama
school, so I've got an accent that isn't really
from our childhood. Yeah, yours is definitely
up a couple levels. But I wonder if maybe tone
-wise or inflection or something, I wonder if
people would spot that, you know, beyond the
superficial kind of accent thing. I think we
look more alike than sound alike. I just look
like the version of you that has had a really
rough paper round. No! You look like you've lived
more bravely. I don't have, like, facial tattoos.
I am fascinated now by what your actual accent
is because I assumed that this is what it was
for both of you, to be fair. I assumed that's
just the accent that you grew up with because
you both sound quite posh. Yeah, so, like, I
don't know how to explain it because it's not
quite like either of ours. Ariel's voice is definitely,
like... more polished because of having gone
to drama school and the stuff that they learn
and then i've i've kind of deliberately tried
to pick up the accents of everyone i've associated
with that wasn't my family so we've both moved
away from the the center yeah and also i grew
up exclusively in the south of england and you
grew up for like 10 years in the south and then
i guess you must have been like 10 or 11 so yorkshire
so so there's also that yeah your peers I mean,
you moved around so much, your peers were from
all over the place, but you had more of an influence
from Yorkshire than certainly I did. Yeah, I
would say like our parents both sound fairly
sort of like middle class Southern England. Like
not like super, super posh BBC English, but not
a million miles off. No. You learn something
new every time. I didn't know whether we were
going to reference being siblings. So this is
very nice. We did discuss this. I totally am
sure. I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. You can cut it if
you don't want to. No, no, no, no, no. Because
you asked me what things we could talk about.
You've done very good consent stuff. But I wasn't
sure if you were going to bring it up or not.
So this is really cool. Because it means that
actually we were out of touch with each other
for like... 10 or 12 maybe even 13 years yeah
and in that time you became kinky and so now
we're back in touch with each other and we're
in this probably very unusual situation where
we're both submissive like submissive masochists
is that yeah so that's how i describe myself
um and we're from the same family but it's not
like we went and explored this together we weren't
like oh let's let's go and hang out at a kink
club together like we we did this in isolation
and now we discover we've got a lot of interests
in common and it's i'm not sure many people have
that experience and even if that is something
that's going on a lot of them wouldn't talk about
it so i think that's the big difference yeah
because i know a few people in our local kink
community who have a relative that's also in
the local kink community okay and it has tended
to be they found it independently of each other
because they didn't want to talk to each other
sure yeah and they end up running into each other
at lunch at some point it's like ah fuck and
then they have to address it super duper where
for us the Figuring it out without talking to
each other was because we weren't talking to
each other at all. Yeah. Not because we don't
talk about kink. No, no, no. As soon as we start
talking to each other, that's all we talk about.
Yes, totally. I remember our first dinner together
was like... But it is... I don't know how you
feel, but I'm kind of glad that you're not in
the industry. So I'm never going to turn up to
a BDSM shoot and you're the other sub. Yeah.
Because that could be weird. And I don't go to
clubs and events like you do. So... you're never
just gonna suddenly see me being like flogged
in the middle of the club and yeah maybe that
might be nice for you though when i was really
new to kink i was chatting to some friends and
i was like i'm starting to explore some kinky
stuff and i'm figuring some stuff out about myself
and all that they're like there's this really
great documentary on channel four um with alice
levine oh Oh, oh, yes. Yes. And that was me.
Yeah. About five minutes into the first episode
of it, I think it was like a little mini series.
No. Being tied up. And I was like, oh, I know
her. That's very odd. But I think on balance,
we run into each other less than we could. And
I think like that's probably comfortable. I love
knowing all the things you're doing. I'm not
sure how I'd cope. If I suddenly saw, especially
because you do some pretty extreme stuff. I'm
not sure how I cope with that if I was on a night
out. I think that's fair. Yeah. One of the last
events we were at, I was like getting waterboarded
in the bathtub while all the people from the
event came piling in to have a look. I think
you might have been a bit like, what's the normal
social thing to do in this situation? Sibling
rivalry. Is that all you can say? Oh, just imagine
that. Yes, that would be awful. That would be
awful. Yeah, I think, like, because I feel like
we're both quite competitive people as well,
I think that would cause problems and wouldn't
be very rack of us at all. I try really hard
not to be competitive because I know being competitive
comes from being insecure and I'm trying really
hard not to be insecure. So, yeah, I don't want
to compete with you about waterboarding. That
would be awful. And I think you might win. So,
yeah, I suppose one of the things that we're
always interested in, and it is not the question
that I would ever have expected to ask my partner's
sibling, but really interested about kind of
how your kink identity developed, how you discovered
it, how it's kind of developed over the years.
So I grew up in a Jehovah's Witness family. You
did not grow up as a Jehovah's Witness because
you're 13 years younger than me. But I grew up
as a Jehovah's Witness. And so I had fairly limited
exposure to kind of the outside world. So we
did have books, but they were pretty old fashioned
books. We didn't have a TV. We didn't get to
listen to pop music. I was rather divorced from
pop culture. And nevertheless, from my earliest
memories, any stories. where someone got tied
up or captured or victimized in any way i just
thought they were amazing so my first crush was
captain hook just what a charm same okay yeah
amazing and like i didn't have access to a whole
load of stuff so you know a lot of people my
age would reference um the avengers or stuff
yeah stuff they'd seen on tv and i didn't have
that but nevertheless there was clearly always
this interest in people getting tied up or punished.
That was what I liked. And so I'd read those
bits of books over and over again. And we didn't
own all of these books. So I used to go to the
bookshop, the local bookshop, and read those
bits. But it didn't occur to me because the Jehovah's
Witnesses are a very sexually conservative religion,
as a lot of religions are. So I wasn't aware
that this could... be the beginning of my sexuality
i just thought it was a kind of weird hobby i
had like reading about people being spanked um
and then i realized really suddenly when i was
16 that this was actually a sexual thing um and
i was just absolutely horrified i thought i mean
i thought i should kill myself honestly because
i hadn't got any framework for kind of accepting
this new interesting thing i found out about
myself all i could see it as was sin so i just
tried to suppress it i became like a very angry
feminist because that felt like the furthest
i could get from all the things i wanted to do
sexually and it was it seemed like a good way
of hiding behind it because then i could talk
quite a lot about awful things happening to women
um Because I was really passionately against
it. So I joined the campaign against pornography
that was all about how women are degraded in
pornography. I'd never seen any pornography,
but I was just like, oh, this is awful. I was
very angry about that, but also sort of sadly
thinking, oh gosh, that sounds amazing, but it's
sin. So I was quite mixed up and I didn't tell
anyone about it because I just assumed that if
I told anyone, they would be like... How disgusting
you are. So I think I might have carried on like
that indefinitely, except that I started modelling
when I was 25 and a photographer invited me to
an exhibition and it turned out to be a BDSM
exhibition. And I saw all these paintings and
photographs of people doing all the stuff that
I fantasised about. And it was such a... Such
an amazing kind of epiphany, because it's not
like I stumbled across something really seedy.
It wasn't even very extreme, but it was presented
like it was beautiful, like it was art, like
it was a legitimate sexuality. And that was the
beginning of me being able to start coming to
terms with what my sexual identity was, meeting
people, so having a community, and starting to
do BDSM work. So, I mean, looking back... I think
what a weird response to finding that I wasn't
alone in the world with my kink. Because it just
seemed like the thing to do then is to be in
these photographs and pictures. Whereas I think
someone else might have thought, I'll maybe go
and explore this in private. It just didn't occur
to me that that was a thing. And I think maybe
looking back, it's because of our shared experiences
as children. I was very, very bad at setting
boundaries. I mean, I basically hadn't got a
clue how to do that. So I suppose that going
and doing BDSM at photo shoots felt like a much
safer thing to do because people's expectations
when you go and do a bondage shoot are not that
you're going to have sex with the photographer.
That's not what people would generally... Not
if it's a good photographer, anyway. So maybe
I was somewhat safer in a kind of controlled
environment where people wouldn't necessarily
have an expectation of having a relationship
with me. It did mean that I got to go around
the world working with people who were broadly
speaking competent. And I got to sample a lot
of different BDSM. And now... I'm 48 now, I can
look back at my earliest BDSM experiences and
they're on camera, which is actually kind of
lovely because for me, subspace kind of wipes
my memory. So having records of my early experiences
are kind of lovely. And it's one of the reasons
I've carried on doing it because I like it that
other people get to watch my work, but I like
to have a record of it myself. I don't know if
you relate to that at all, the idea of having
a record. Yeah, I've not done BDSM in a professional
way, but the phone is always out. I have a lot
of pictures. We take a lot of pictures. It's
really special. And I understand if you're very
physically self -conscious, it might not be something
that you'd enjoy. But I just love that. And I've
also realised another reason that I still do
my job is there's less necessity for it probably
now, but I will always remember. being 16 and
how lonely i felt and how i just thought it was
me in the world with this awful kind of sexual
identity that made me kind of deviant and sort
of disgusting and the idea of putting work into
the world that future generations of 18 year
olds will see yeah and and realize they're not
alone i mean hopefully they won't these days
because they've got the internet but just in
case they are i i hope that there is lots of
work they can find that shows them artistic representations
of what they're into because for me at least
that's been immensely powerful in making me feel
like i'm okay and my sexuality is okay yeah it
is dead interesting that that's having that discovery
through a professional um angle going okay well
this is this is the work that i'm doing oh there's
this really interesting exciting aspect to that
work that i can do and it kind of builds up built
up that way yeah i've realized as time's gone
on that that was not a particularly typical thing
to do no but i still think if you don't mind
being on camera and you've got no issues with
privacy it is a decent way to get started yeah
i imagine it's a lot easier to vet because everyone's
so public about what they're doing like you've
got if you look at a photographer's portfolio
you'll see every submissive that that he's shot
and then you can ask them yeah totally and i
think maybe these days if people are doing this
stuff via FetLife, maybe you can do similar.
Yeah. Possibly. But yeah, certainly when I started
doing BDSM, I guess my options would have been
either do it professionally like I did or kind
of go to a club and hope I meet nice people.
Yeah. I'm not sure what the other options would
really have been in 2003. No, because I was going
to say, because I'm a couple of years younger
than you, and the internet was a thing. But it
wasn't what it is now. Those online communities
didn't exist. It was quite hard to find anything
on early 2000s internet, wasn't it? So that kind
of outlet wasn't there for you. And I feel like,
I mean, there are incompetent bondage producers,
of course, but compared to just meeting a random
man who says he's a dominant and letting him
tie you up, I think maybe I was somewhat safer.
To some extent. Yeah. Yeah. How did you make
that transition then into doing it as a job and
into doing it for fun? Yeah. Yeah. That actually
took me a while because when I started bondage
modelling, I was in a relationship with someone
who wasn't kinky. So I thought at the time, well,
probably the best I can do, you know, I'm not
going to break up with him because I got all
these ideas about religion and monogamy. And
like, once you've had sex with one person, that's
who you have to stay with. So I didn't see. that
I'd have an opportunity to do it personally.
So I thought, I guess I'll just be happy with
doing it professionally. I mean, that's still
a fantastic result compared to what I was expecting,
which was to be alone forever with my kink. And
so I was somewhat satisfied by that. But then
when he and I broke up, I realised I do have
an opportunity now to... maybe prioritize finding
someone who's actually sexually compatible with
me um so i'd been modeling like three or four
years by the time i actually did any bdsm in
my personal life just for me and the person i
was doing it with um and it was it was fantastic
because because at the time i'd got quite a lot
of rules about what i wouldn't do on camera like
i didn't want to have sex on camera um for example
and so there was a whole load of stuff that had
just been kind of not available to me because
of my own rules i'd set and suddenly to be able
to actually have a fully sexual relationship
with all the bdsm elements i was interested in
it was like amazing so i married him find find
one that works like i'm keeping that one when
was that 25 yeah so i mean old really compared
to what the same person might do now and for
like a sort of figuring out of your sexuality
in general that is it's a big gap from puberty
to there really really for most people but between
figuring out what you want to do sexually and
getting to do it is is generally quite short
if what you want is vanilla and i think especially
for those of us who had fantasies of the this
nature from kind of early childhood which i know
the same yeah you it it feels like god i like
quarter of a century from fancying captain hook
to actually like doing any of this stuff and
I was really interested when we got back in touch
with each other that actually you had not been
particularly quick off the mark yeah with actually
doing this stuff either yeah I briefly dabbled
when I was 16 and kind of scared myself off and
then didn't again until I was 31 so late which
again seems especially given that clearly this
is a really big important part of your life I
kind of look back at my life and think how did
I manage like do you think that definitely yeah
I was just really unhappy most of the time yeah
but i know there was there was some areas because
of your acting and modeling work you did find
some outlets for it even yes didn't you what
what did you what did you do so so well as an
actor i got to play quite a lot of roles where
i was something of a victim because if you look
like a woman and you're young in mainstream acting
Like you get cast as a victim a lot, whether
or not you want that. Like, I mean, I played
a dead body quite a lot. This is just what happens
when you've just graduated drama school and you
look like a young woman. So I did a lot of roles
that involved stage fight. I took that quite
seriously at drama school. So I was very, and
because it was a bit like BDSM. So I did a lot
of stuff with like sword fighting and unarmed
combat. And I just really liked it if I got to
lose. So I tried to select roles where I would
get beaten up or something, something that was
somewhat like, oh, I got tied up quite a lot
again. There were lots of opportunities for that.
It just always felt a bit kind of tainted because
really I was doing BDSM without the consent of
the person I was doing it with because they didn't
know it was BDSM. They thought it was just a
scene from a Shakespeare play. And so looking
back, I don't feel like I really covered myself
with glory by selecting those roles, but it was
all I could. think of doing i mean i thought
that would be as good as it would get um the
only other thing i think of doing was maybe like
joining the army because i thought people were
quite horrible to you in the army people might
like at least shout at you or make you do push
-ups and that wasn't exactly my kink imagine
the recruitment posters though if that was their
selling point posited kinksters come and enlist
in the army It might work. Don't give them ideas.
They'll do it. Did you do this? Please make me
feel less alone. Did you like eroticize stuff
that really wasn't designed for that? A hundred
percent. I feel like Mick's probably less so
because they didn't figure out they were kinky
until they were like 19. They had a blissfully
normal childhood and then stumbled into it once
they were already sexually active and had people
to do kink with. So you just skip past all that.
Finding weird little outlets for it and just...
Yeah, I managed to avoid all of the shame and
feeling angry and stuff like that. That does
seem so healthy. Yeah, I apologise. I kind of
envy you that. I'm glad that you didn't have
like seven tortured years in my case and like
how many tortured years? Jesus, a lot. Yeah.
Because, I mean, it just, it seems just such
a waste. Apart from everything else, it just
seems like such a waste. And I don't, looking
back, I don't even fully understand where the
shame came from for me, because I know you really,
you know, took a lot of your religious upbringing
really seriously and were really trying to commit
to it. I fully rejected all of the religious
stuff from very, very young, about 12 or 13.
But I held on to the shame. I was like, oh, I'll
keep that bit. Yeah, that's the worst bit. Yeah.
I won't think about lovely eternal life. I'll
just have shame. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really sorry
that was your experience because, like, I would
have hoped it wouldn't be like that because your
situation was somewhat different because you
kind of rejected... Yeah, and I wasn't raised
Jehovah's Witness. Our family had moved into
sort of mainstream Christianity by the time I
was born. Yeah. Or, like, very shortly after
I was born. So I was brought up... christian
but not jehovah's witness so it was already a
little bit a little bit looser we had you know
we had christmas and stuff yeah um and then i
same broad same broad messages oh yeah for sure
but but for people who've experienced being a
jehovah's witness like the childhood i had would
seem very very liberated being able to go into
assembly at school and things like that yeah
you were less cut off From your peer group, maybe.
I was able to at least be influenced a little
bit by the outside world, which is probably why
I felt able to reject it as long as I did. Realised
it wasn't working for me and left it. But I think
shame is such a pervasive thing that even if
there's no logical reason for it, once you've
lost the God says this is bad part of the equation,
you don't automatically ditch the shame. It's
not always that easy. I think I know the answer,
but do you feel any guilt or shame at all? Not
anymore, no. I think there's maybe one or two
things that we've done that we've made the decision
not to post on FetLife. But that's not necessarily
a shame thing. It's more, do I want to deal with
how people are going to maybe respond to this
if this is outside their comfort zone? Yeah.
Yeah, it's not. Which is different, I think.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's a much more kind
of clear -headed... decision so talking about
shame do you think that doing kink the way that
you've done it with so much of your kink life
being on camera has that helped with unlearning
shame because of it being so public do you think
yes i think it really really has um i i'm not
sure where i've got to otherwise because it means
that you quite quickly start to get feedback
from people and fortunately early on in my career
all of that feedback was positive because i don't
think you start getting horrible comments until
you're quite well known you do on tiktok yeah
i guess that's probably different now because
it all used to be just forums um and people just
said really nice stuff especially back when i
started it's really like though it's not like
there were thousands of bondage models and so
i think it made me feel very appreciated um and
then latterly kind of in the last 10 years or
so, I've had a YouTube channel and social media
is a much bigger thing. And I started getting
horrible comments as well. And I think actually
that in some ways really helped because seeing
people say the stuff about you that you used
to be afraid was true and having an opportunity
to just think and say, no, that's not the case.
Actually, that has as well been quite helpful.
for me so it's not like i'd say this is the route
that everyone should take but yes choosing to
do it very publicly has sort of forced me to
confront how i feel about myself and how i'm
representing myself and yeah these days i'm really
comfortable with it um i think that doing it
professionally so that the stuff i shoot is all
visible to the public it certainly makes you
feel some responsibilities in terms of representation
some of the things that i might like to do in
private i maybe wouldn't want to shoot um because
of the possibility of people copying you so there's
all of that responsibility i'm sure you feel
as well because yes i have to think so carefully
about especially with short form content on tiktok
if i say this without enough nuance and enough
disclaimers and enough safety information someone's
going to just go do it yes yes and of course
that changes things a little bit but but no broadly
speaking it's been Very good. I mean, these days,
I would say I probably don't feel any shame at
all. But that's been a very long journey. You
know, I'm in middle age. And so it's really nice
to see you arriving at what feels like a similar
point much younger. definitely like i've i've
found being so public about things really helpful
because when i first started doing it i was still
really working through a lot of that stuff and
was probably a little bit vulnerable really in
some of the content i was putting out but i found
like you said both the positive comments are
really validating and reaffirming and help to
heal some of that and then the negatives it was
sort of like i was looking at them i was like
Is this fucking amateur hour? Like I can say
20 things worse than that to myself within less
than a second. Yes. It immediately just puts
things into perspective where it's like, actually,
this is fine. Yes. Yeah, I don't know if being
non -binary in this one regard might make it
a bit... easier as a submissive. Tell me if I'm
wrong. But I have this horrible feeling that
I'm sort of responsible for how women are seen.
So as a female submissive, I'm scared that my
work might be used to justify the idea of women
being submissive, like wholesale. And I hope
maybe you don't have quite that same... worry
it's complicated so when i first started being
really public about kink i was a lot more masculine
presenting okay and so then people were generally
reading me as either male or people who understood
that i was non -binary and were accepting of
that was still making the assumption i was assigned
male at birth because i had facial hair short
hair it's a bit skinnier so i had a bit more
structure to my face like i looked a lot more
masculine and then as i've started presenting
more and more feminine and i've gained weight
so i look more feminine regardless of what i
do with my presentation That perception has changed
where people are reading me as female more often.
And I don't think people worry about male subs
as much as they worry about female. No, like
if I got negative comments, it was basically
like I was a weak beta cuck. Which is fine. But
people weren't saying that that made any sense.
but people weren't assuming that made any kind
of commentary about men as a whole but yeah absolutely
people do when they read you as female yes and
i think like we went to a really really thought
-provoking class around feminism and kink recently
and one of the things that the educator in that
talked about was about the difference between
like impact and optics So my impact is important.
I need to think about the messages that I'm putting
out into the world and the influence that I have
on people where I'm not saying to women, your
role is a submissive. You are naturally supposed
to submit. You are supposed to be in this role.
You should let your partner do whatever they
want to you. It's really important that I don't
do that. And I don't. It's not important. for
people to perceive me as a good feminist it's
not important for me to perform feminism correctly
so people go oh yes your relationship is good
and feminist and you are a good and feminist
woman or person like that doesn't actually have
any kind of positive or negative impact that
is just fluff and pr what's important is that
i am not harming people and causing damage yes
and that's Before that class, I hadn't really
had word to put to it, but that's very much the
approach I've taken. It's like, I'm not saying
that people who look like me or have the same
anatomy as me should be in this role. I'm saying
that if you want to be in this role, you should
be able to do it without feeling shame. That's
the important thing. Yeah. And the way I think
about it is that if I was a male, I would be
a male submissive. If everything else about me
was still the same, I'd be a submissive. And,
you know, I could have been. born dominant and
hopefully if i was dominant i would be doing
all of these things from a different point of
view it's just chance that i'm female and i don't
think i should not be allowed to explore the
things i like just because of oh what about representing
women is strong um so yeah So something I found
really interesting is leaving me as male more.
Most of my hate comments were from men. And when
people perceive me as female more, most of my
hate comments are from women. Oh God, that's
depressing. People love to police their own gender.
It's wild. It's so fascinating. Like someone
should study this. Someone probably has. Gosh,
that is very interesting. I want to find out
more about that. What's going on there? Wow.
Yeah. Maybe people are just more mean to their
own gender. I think that's how, like, a lot of,
we risk fully diverting here, but how gender
roles and sort of expectations really work is
we're kind of self -policing. Yeah. The idea
of this is what a man is and this is what a woman
is. Oh, yeah. And, like, we're a traitor to our,
like, a gender traitor. Yeah. Yeah. Because a
lot of the stuff that... that women i think feel
under pressure to do for their appearance and
their gender role and stuff it more comes from
women than men a lot of men are like i like women
with no or very natural makeup and don't particularly
care what she's dressed up in and don't really
notice the difference and then women are like
why are you wearing that yes yeah yes i agree
well it's like even with even with the the bimbofication
stuff that we've done we've got rules around
makeup But, like, Griesel will sometimes say
to me, oh, I've done something different with
my makeup today. Can you tell what it is? And
I have got absolutely no fucking sweet clue.
Because it's still your face. Still a really
gorgeous face. You look great. One time the thing
I'd done differently was I'd accidentally massively
over -plucked my eyebrows to the point that I
looked permanently surprised. Amazing. They couldn't
tell. Oh, wow. Because you still looked amazing.
something that i was really interested in is
we both do kink very publicly but in very different
ways so you do kink on screen and it could be
potentially seen by hundreds of thousands of
people um where i do kink i my public content
is not explicit it's it's me talking about my
life so when i do kink publicly it's at events
yes so smaller numbers of people but in person
people do you feel like like that feels like
very different to me and i feel like i would
be nervous in a very different way doing what
you do but i know you don't really play at events
do you know and i really wouldn't want to like
i i'm delighted that lots of people do enjoy
doing it but To me, the fear of judgment for
doing that seems huge. And I don't have that
fear of judgment when I'm doing performances,
even though the risk of being judged is just
as much. And I think that's just an illusion.
And I'm guessing it's just that my preference
is for performance. And if my preference was
going and doing stuff in clubs, I would be doing
it and I'd be discovering it was lovely. And
it's just not my preference. I think that the
biggest thing for me about not wanting to do.
kink in actual public is the idea of like my
dominant being judged like that the idea of someone
coming up and saying no you're doing it wrong
or like you're hitting her too hard that's the
image i get in my mind if i think of doing it
and it just horrifies me yeah whereas you have
done lots of that but you've not done bdsm like
on camera for people to watch like what do you
think that would be like for you i think like
because i've done sex work before including some
video stuff it's i don't think it would be hugely
sort of difficult i think it's a there'd be a
bit of nerves but nerves i could get past um
it's not something that i do now partly because
of my day job and partly because like i'm middle
-aged and chubby and i like being able to relax
definitely there is that Don't you feel, so I'm
always, if I'm doing BDSM performance, unless
it's so intense, I kind of lose the ability.
I'm always thinking about like pulling my tummy
in good posture, all of that. But don't you feel
that when you're doing stuff at clubs in public?
No, because I think because everyone else there
is just regular people as well. Like when you're
doing modelling or when you're doing porn. you're
comparing yourself against other models and porn
stars. Fair enough, yes. And the standard is
so high and so narrow. So you do feel like, yes,
suck your stomach in, don't have a big meal before
you shoot, make sure your makeup is flawless,
all of this. When you're in a club, they are
just regular people and there's some gorgeous
people there. Yeah. But it's diversity of body
types, it's diversity of ages. Like there will
be people there who some people have made loads
of effort and spent four hours on their makeup
and some people have just rolled out of bed,
had a shower and come in. So there's less of
that comparison and there's less of that sort
of rigid aesthetic expectation, which I think
makes it a lot more relaxed. Yeah, yeah, I can
see that. And certainly I really love it when
I get to a state at a shoot, which doesn't happen
for every shoot by any means. But if I'm doing
really intense stuff with someone I've got a
good dynamic with, Getting to the point of not
caring anymore is a really lovely place to get
to. So yeah, if it could always be like that,
that would be amazing. But as it is, I'm pulling
my tummy in. I think a big part of what I get
out of BDSM is the permission to be ugly and
messy. Because in the environment we grew up
in, being ugly and messy were like the biggest
sins you could commit. It was so unacceptable
to not be pretty and perfect and polished. Yeah.
And having a space to like cry my mascara halfway
down my face and throw up a little bit and snot
everywhere and be a little bit chubby and be
a little bit hairy and be a little bit sweaty
and pee myself if it gets too intense. Like that's
so freeing. And I'm not saying I couldn't do
that on camera. I absolutely could. But I don't
know what I would make would be particularly
commercial because that ugliness is something
that I would really want to preserve. Yeah, yeah,
totally understood. But yeah, that is a really
nice aspect of BDSM that it doesn't, you don't
have to be presentable. Yeah. Yeah, I like that
too. It's an oddly accepting space, isn't it?
It's not what you would expect. Like when you
go into a kink, like public kink events, it is
really like by default. accepting of whoever
walks through the door as long as they behave
yeah as long as you're like following the rules
sticking to the dress code if there is one having
some basic etiquette so not running up to someone
going hi when they're in the middle of a scene
like yeah yeah everyone's gonna be cool i know
you from tiktok i have had that before that's
always the funniest thing if someone at a kink
event recognizes me do you feel like you're really
walking the walk yeah but also it's like it's
like you're not getting the most pr version of
me at a kink event no and they're probably not
presenting the most like the version of yourself
you would want to present to someone you look
up to either we've definitely had a kink events
where someone who was like fully gone in subspace
floating away barely coherent it's gone oh my
god i know you're from tiktok and it's like neither
of us are our best selves right now are we you
are maybe you're your most authentic self i'm
very interested to know if we have any followers
in common because we're both in BDSM we're both
submissive masochists but you are covering like
the educational end of things on TikTok and I
am covering the porn end of things like on Twitter
and I know we've talked about it a bit before
that your kind of viewer base is young Younger
than mine. Young and mainly female, yeah. So
yeah, most of our viewers are below 30. I think
most below 25. Like 20 to 25 is like our main
sort of bracket. And about 85 % female on both
TikTok and the pod. And mine is like 90 % male.
and tends to be older. And so I'd be really interested
to see if anyone comes forward and goes, oh,
yes, I know. I hope so, because that would make
me feel like you're a dynasty. Yes. And that
we've covered the whole, we've covered the whole,
all the demographics. Yes. That's my ambition.
Imagine, though, someone's mind being completely
blown if they followed both of us for years.
and just now finding out we're related yeah finding
out today like there'll be like one person and
it's just gonna blow their minds and i think
it sounds like the sort of thing people make
up as well yeah because in porn people are always
having fake But, you know, like on FetLife, people
will be like, oh, mommy to this person and like
daddy Dom to this person and sister to this person.
And we actually are siblings. And I think people
might think we're just making it up for reasons
of kink. Yeah, if I launch an OnlyFans next week,
it's going to look really suspicious. It is an
interesting thing you said earlier on about feeling
judged. The potential to feel judged in those
spaces. Because initially when you said that,
I thought you were kind of calling back to those
feelings of shame. But actually it sounded like
you were concerned about how other people will
perceive your performance, I suppose. Or your
dominance performance. Definitely my dominance
performance. Yeah. And I think maybe part of
this is simply because I look like a woman and
I only play with men. And I... just the idea
because because from time to time actually the
criticism that has hurt me and stuck with me
the most has been when people have said like
your boyfriend or now your husband um is abusing
you yeah um and obviously a kink club that'd
be a very weird thing for someone to come and
say to you but yeah and because i've not done
it i don't really know what the culture is like
probably if i did it i'd realize no one's going
to come up and be like oh that's too hard but
um but yeah it The idea of that is so unpleasant
that I think I'm very avoidant of it. And I think
some of that will come from, because we've experienced
a little bit of that, haven't we, at some of
the events we've been to where it's like we've
gone too far, been too loud or too hard. It's
usually a noise issue. I'm a screamer and we
do play pretty hard. I'm very loud also. And
to be fair, on at least one occasion, the...
It was probably justified. The way that it was
dealt with was probably not the best. But I was
hitting two very, very loud, very differently
loud as well. Because Carriza is quite kind of
deep and quite guttural when they're getting
hit. And the other person that I was hitting
was very loud and very shrill with it, covering
a whole range of sounds. And this particular
venue is on a high street and we were loud enough.
Apparently we could be heard outdoors. Okay.
So understandable. Yeah. But I kind of relate
to that fear of judgment because it's something
that I, certainly when we first started going
to events, was really, really conscious of and
really worried about was I've done this stuff
before. I know what I'm doing, but I've never
done it in public before. What if people think
I'm doing it wrong? Or even worse, what if I
am actually doing it wrong? Yeah, totally, totally.
And somebody calls me on it and it's like, yeah,
not only are you doing that wrong, you're doing
completely, in a really bad way, get out of my
club, never come back kind of thing. Yeah. That's
something that I've never experienced. No, good,
good. But it was a real... But no, the idea of
my dominant being told off, I don't want to see
that. That's a horrible idea. I can confirm when
mixes got told off, anyone who says anything
negative to them, I want to bite them like a
rat. I have to be physically restrained. It's
not good. No. Because I don't know if it's exactly
the same for you, but in the little universe
I've constructed in my head, my dom is the king
of the world. No one gets to tell them to stop.
That is a very upsetting idea. Yeah. So I hope
that never happens again. Because it sounds like
you found some places where the kind of play
you do is welcome. Yeah, it's a combination of
finding the right places and like learning to
predict how things are going to turn out. I think
in the early days, like it was sometimes hard
to know how loud it was going to get. Then you're
in the moment and you're not thinking about it.
And yeah, like in any venue, you're going to
have to think a little bit about noise. But most
of the places we go now, you don't have to worry
too much about it. I mean, like there was an
event that we went to last year where I ended
up screaming so loud people could hear it in
the entire venue and in the smoking area. And
the response was people coming up to me afterwards
being like, you sounded like that was really
good. That's nice. And that's the vibe. That
suits us. I like it. You're clearly prepared
to travel quite far in order to do these things
as well. We do, yeah. Like, there are events
that happen locally, but we've just found, like,
the more we get into our dynamic and the heavier
we play, we need to find events that are really,
like, really broad -minded. So that's worth travelling
for. And once you get to meet new people, you
get to experience different styles of events.
I think if you only ever go to events in one
area, you can just kind of get it in your head,
this is what a kink event is. And it's always
really good to see how different areas do it,
even if you end up preferring your local area.
perspective so we've we really value getting
to travel yeah yeah i have found i've wanted
to i there's no distance i won't go really in
order to have good bdsm experiences it's so nice
um and so especially early on in my career i
was seeking out all these producers who were
all over the place and you know going to america
or going to australia because Because your sex
drive is powerful, isn't it? Even if you're not
having actual sex, just the desire to experience
these things, it feels worth making sacrifices
for and, yeah, travelling up and down the M1
for. Yeah, for sure. Have you found, because
it sounds like it's a very different sort of
version of kink community, the experience, a
lot of our experiences of kink community are
through going to munches and then going to play
events and that's how we know a lot of our kinky
friends. Yeah. But with that not being something
you do. But you still sound very much like you've
found yourself a community of people and formed
those same connections. Yes, yeah, definitely,
definitely. I think the difference is that in
my industry, I would say almost all the producers
are introverts because they get to do this on
their own. They invite one model at a time to
come into their environment for a set amount
of time and then they send her away again. And
so all my friends are introverts as a result.
So I'm guessing the sort of people who go to
munches and events would... not necessarily all
be introverts yeah there's a mix there's still
a lot of introverts there if they're not if they're
not a photographer and they're not a model they
kind of don't have any other options so sure
they turn up and they sit looking terrified holding
a pint but but yeah like there's definitely more
more extroverts there yeah and we kind of keep
the room circulating a little bit totally and
so it definitely does feel like i'm part of a
community but it's a community of people who
don't meet up en masse so much so i would do
a lot more socializing in very small groups because
that's that i mean that's my preference and that
also seems to be the preference of a lot of the
people in my industry and i really like that
i really like the sort of intimacy of meeting
and working with people kind of one -on -one
or maybe just two or three of you um that's how
i feel like i make friends the best so yeah it
suits my temperament very much because i think
there's a sort of a perception within the mainstream
standard kink scene that we're a part of that
if you don't participate in that you are not
involved in kink community it's like a very either
or thing um i've heard a lot of people say like
it's a red flag if you've never seen someone
play at an event and stuff like that and it's
like Not everyone wants to do that. The first
two or three years that I was doing kink, I didn't
go to events because the partner I was with at
the time wasn't interested. And also we didn't
have a car. So getting to the venues where they
happen was a lot more difficult. And people tend
to sort of advise like playing for your first
time at an event and things like that, which
for some people really works. But I couldn't
have done that my first time. Could not. No,
me neither. I mean, because that would have been
terrifying to me as well. So no, I feel like
there's a space for lots of different people
in kink and we just express it in different ways.
I think that just shows like there's a lot of
different ways to have kink community. I think
it's not good for kinky people to be isolated
because you can end up feeling like you're the
biggest pervert on the planet and oh my god,
I'm so disgusting. How do I cope with this? We
need each other and it's good to learn things
from other people and bounce ideas off other
people and we need people to play with. Yes.
But I think going to a munch and sitting around
in a circle talking about... stuff isn't to everyone's
taste i really like it but i am a huge extrovert
and being in a big group of people and talking
to loads of people is my ideal i think it's important
to kind of get out there that there's a lot of
ways to find like your kinky tribe and that isn't
the only one yeah yeah totally and on the other
hand i i think the idea of meeting one or two
people at a time for a very set period of time
sounds ideal you should be a photographer yeah
or a model or a model Maybe a photographer. With
the career you've had, you said about 20 years,
right? What have been some of the best experiences
in that, the coolest stuff you've experienced?
Like when I think of kind of high points, one
of the particular high points for me was I'd
been modelling, I guess, like about 14, 13 or
14 years by this point, full time. So I'd had
loads of experiences and I thought I'd kind of
experienced. everything I was capable of doing
and everything I was that I wanted to do. But
then I went and worked with Eric Kane, who runs
a website called Futile Struggles. And it's just
like a whole other level of terrifying, really.
He does very, very secure. rope bondage and with
most rope bondage even with people who are good
riggers you can just often get out if you tried
hard enough you could just get out but his work
is genuinely inescapable really frightening and
at the time at least he shot in the middle of
nowhere so there's if something went wrong there's
really no one to come and immediately let you
out um and i remember looking at his work and
thinking like i love it like it's sexy to me
like i like looking at it as porn i really don't
know if i can do this or not but i'm gonna definitely
contact him and try because i'd like to believe
i could do this um and so i went and worked with
him and it was just tremendous but it felt like
kind of getting into fifth gear for the first
time ever like wow there's another dimension
of this and that was just i know with with bdsm
as a sub at least for me a lot of it is sort
of trying to find the line between what's enough
and what's too much and obviously when you try
to do that sometimes it's too much um And it
felt like, you know, the first few times I worked
with him, I felt like I was really discovering
where the line between enough and too much was.
And it was just I think I mean, it was sexy and
everything. It was hot. And also it was kind
of spiritual because subspace is such an interesting
state to get to. But also I felt like just like
a stunt performer. Like this is like a circus.
And that I hadn't really expected to. ever experienced
that and so I kind of became quite addicted to
it and I've been working with him for a really
long time now and I think that's one of the really
nice things about doing my job is that you do
get to sample a lot of different people's version
of doing BDSM a bit like if you were having multiple
play partners you just get to sample lots of
things and you know a lot of it will be fine
and then occasionally you'll just find something
that just feels perfect like yeah wow what a
extraordinary kind of complete experience that
was I remember last time I worked with him um
we did a post like post shoot interview and I
remember saying it's just like there's no it
feels like there's no past and no future all
there is is kind of this moment and yeah that's
just um I'm amazing I'm a very I've got very
loud in a monologue I'm very kind of impatient
and um energetic and and how Find those few moments.
It's just transformative. Yeah, it's so beautiful.
That's always what I'm chasing from kink. Yeah,
like the brain off is so, so important. I think
I remember you saying, do you get the kind of
subspace amnesia as well? I don't tend to forget
stuff, but I can end up with most of my brain
just kind of shutting down during play where
I'm not really aware of pain. I'm not really
thinking anything. It's just very, very quiet
upstairs, which is nice. Yeah, it's one of the
things. It's not that I don't want people to
think my job is sexual, because it is. I'm not
saying, oh, no, it's far more elevated than sexual.
But the fact is, it is something as well as sexual.
And the fact that it can be both of those things
so intensely at once is, I mean, really addictive.
And I hope I can carry on enjoying that for a
long time, because obviously the stuff that both
of us like to do, it requires a somewhat... healthy
body so i'm always aware that me in 20 years
time might not be getting to do some of the more
extreme stuff i guess scale down stuff will feel
more extreme as you get older though like i hope
so it's like this could break my hip yeah yeah
i think that's probably true but i think like
80 year old me will be happy to have done these
extreme things and be able to look back at them
as long as none of them have like broken my spine
that's fair i remember the first time i experienced
your zen -like state uh -huh what happened it's
it's quite disconcerting to be fair because you
go from because what we did when we first got
together was lots of impact so there was lots
of wriggling there was lots of noises that you
would expect when you're hitting people with
stuff and then all of a sudden it just stopped
you got really really quiet and really really
still and it and it's it's I can see that might
be eerie. It's a little bit, yeah, quite disconcerting
to experience that. You go, are they okay? But
then sometimes you'll just start giggling. Yeah,
that happens as well. Oh, I don't do that. Yeah,
if I stay in that sort of state where I'm not
really processing pain anymore for long enough,
generally they'll... Mix will try to break through
it by hitting me harder and harder with worse
and worse things. And either that works and I
start screaming and struggling again. Great.
Or I stay in that state, but I start laughing
at what they're doing because it's so funny seeing
them try to hurt me. And then once I get the
giggles, I can't stop. And so I kind of come
out of the Zen state, but I'm still not really
feeling pain and I'm just laughing hysterically.
So that's like kind of being drunk. That's very
interesting. I've never been to that state. It
sounds really nice. It's great. Yeah. It's been
really fun exploring that with Mix because in
my last relationship, it was once I got to the
state where I wasn't really responding to pain,
that was outside my ex -partner's risk profile.
She was concerned she wouldn't be able to tell
if she gave me an injury or something like that.
So she didn't like to play past that point. So
if I got to that state, she would wrap it up.
Completely fair from a risk perspective. Because
it's something we've talked about and talked
about, like the fact that really intense pain
will still pull me out of it. So a serious injury
or something we probably could pick up on makes
us comfortable continuing to play past that point.
And that's when we discovered the drunken giggly
stage that comes later. And it's great. It's
so much fun. Can I ask, because I always hope
for tops and doms, do you relate to this sort
of getting to a different mental state at all?
I think... I think to an extent. There's some
of the things that we do which are quite meditative,
I think because they're quite detailed processes
to them. Probably less so with waterboard, but
like the stuff we do with nettles. Yeah. There's
a whole process to it, you know, from going and
finding the nettles to preparing them to preparing
cariesel. Oh my God. And then... doing the things
with the nettles it's quite a meditative process
um i don't think when we're doing like impact
especially like heavy impact i think i will get
into a rhythm and i will get into like a flow
state but i don't get that kind of almost kind
of zen floating away kind of feeling because
i am still keeping an eye on what's happening
yeah that's what i'm always suspicious of anchor
that goes no i i i need to retain a level of
like monitoring while i'm doing things i'm not
in your head but the thing i perceive as being
the most mind -altering for you is breath play
and rate play both of those it seems like you
just become another person yeah like there's
a little bit of a ferality to you yeah that seems
like more of a a headspace change than i usually
see yeah yeah i think that's probably fair though
those things which are more it's the extreme
imbalance of power yeah pure expressions of power
yeah i think are probably it's probably the closest
that i get but even then there's still a an anchor
to it you still have to monitor to make sure
that you're not damaging me yeah yeah yeah you
have to be a little bit sensible when i really
don't yeah yeah yeah it's like um i guess you
can afford to be a bit less self -indulgent i
guess like as the sub you kind of you can I think
just kind of really indulge in the experience.
So I always feel a bit sorry for doms because
it seems like a lot of work. I definitely find
even from a sub perspective though, I think because
I'm a bit of an overthinker and I do a lot of
thinking about my risk profile and really like
in -depth risk assessment, you can tell I work
in insurance with the headspace I bring into
kink. I think there's always a part of me that
is kind of analysing the risk of anything we're
doing, being prepared to speak up if something
doesn't feel right, things like that. It's just
that that part gets really quiet and it's just
sort of there, almost like a click track in the
background. Yeah. Where if it starts alerting,
I'll notice it. But if it's not, I can tune it
out. Yeah. So I've got a really good separation
from that in a voice where I think maybe mixes
is a little bit louder. And maybe it needs to
be. I think as a dominant, you do have a little
bit more responsibility within the moment. Yeah.
So it's maybe not something that you feel able
to tune out quite as much. Yeah. I don't think
I would want to. Yeah. either to be fair like
the click click track is a really good analogy
because i think there is an element of that but
it is a little bit louder and you you're kind
of more conscious of it as you as you're doing
whatever you're doing yeah um even with the stuff
like you say i think because i think you're right
there is definitely a headspace shift when we
do like breath play or kind of consensual non
-consent stuff so that's probably the closest
i get as well as those kind of meditative things
that i talked about yeah yeah um It would feel
dangerous to kind of completely zen out. I can
see that. Yeah, I can see that. Which would be
a bit worrying for me. Yeah. You are the bus
driver in this situation. You can't fall asleep
at the wheel. No, unfortunately not. No. Slightly
different angle on reflecting on your career,
I suppose. I think there's a lot in the media
at the moment about... The porn laws in this
country and the approach to censorship of porn
and stuff like that. How has that been kind of
over the course of your career? Have you noticed
that that is changing? Is it going backwards?
It's very interesting that when I started modelling,
it was 2003, and websites were just... booming
people were starting membership sites for all
sorts of things and a lot of them were doing
really well because there was this hunger people
wanted to to go and see the porn that they related
to and so a lot of people were making money from
very niche things like bondage wearing 1970s
blouses there was a website that was just for
bondage in white blouses i mean it could be very
niche And it was amazing. I mean, the opportunities
for a fetish model who was kind of hungry to
experience lots, it was great. Looking back,
it was, of course, not at all regulated. So...
people who were doing dangerous stuff didn't
get shut down particularly quickly eventually
word would get around to all the models and no
one would work with them anymore but it would
take years so looking back it's not like it was
all good but it was certainly a really kind of
fertile time for the industry and at the time
the rules of what we could sell were laxed Really,
because no one was trying to really moderate
yet. So I remember I never worked for this website,
but there was a website that was based near where
I lived that was like fake snuff, which these
days, I mean, getting billing for that, you would
go to jail. I can't believe, looking back, that
people got away with so much. But then in the
years that have passed, Visa and Mastercard,
who provide the billing for it. all of these
sites have started tightening up and so i think
some of that is probably fair because i think
there were some really unwise things being shot
not not just in terms of representation but in
terms of like literal actual danger yeah um but
we've got to a point right now in like 2026 where
a whole load of things aren't allowed for reasons
that i find quite stupid so we've got a law against
anything that looks like breath play and i can
see you know breath play clearly is quite dangerous
there are some things we probably shouldn't film
because people might copy but what happens is
you know having a rope that goes around the neck
that isn't putting any pressure on your neck
can it you could say it looks like breath play
if you don't really know anything about bondage
um you know a hood over someone's face we know
you can often breathe through a hood but someone
who's never worn one doesn't necessarily know
that so content that i think really probably
should be okay is being censored A lot of words
aren't allowed anymore. So if you use OnlyFans,
for example, you can't use any numbers under
18 in case you're talking about someone underage.
So you can't say six strokes of the cane. And
also you can't say cane. So the rules are quite
difficult to navigate. Creatively, it's quite
frustrating, especially if you're someone with
very word -heavy content. my content is very
talky and having to avoid all of these words
is quite hard work and i sometimes feel increasingly
i feel that that representation of more niche
kinks is beginning to be stamped down on um so
you know hardcore boy girl is all still fine
you can still do double and triple penetration
all sorts of kind of hardcore activities But
if you've got a more marginalised sexual identity
and what you like to see is women pretending
they've been chloroformed... you're out of luck
now because they might be dead um they might
be being trafficked and they might have been
killed and so you can't see this so we can't
even pretend to be asleep in the at the beginning
of a scene there's there's a lot um and it is
beginning to really seriously impact some of
my peers uh so far i've been okay um because
the core of my business is custom videos where
no one else necessarily sees the video it can
be just for the customer but reselling those
videos is becoming Quite challenging. you can
no longer mention family relations unless you
put the word step in front. And you end up having
like step aunts and step nephews and step grandmothers.
And it sounds ridiculous. But it's not, I mean,
it's interesting. It's not, and I started having
this awful kind of Pavlovian response when I
use some of these words in real life. You can't
use the word force. Like even if it's like I
forced him to get out of my flat. And yeah, I
know. I remember exactly when you, stop being
able to search for forced okay a lot of sites
block brutal as well that used to be a good yes
i can't say captive um yeah and it does feel
like it squashes just personal expression and
how much of that this is like potentially showing
my ignorance here how much of that is because
of legislation and how much of that is the payment
processes yeah it's more payment processes right
so they tend to be more draconian than most right
like western governments anyway the uk has started
bringing in they brought in like the age verification
yes law so that websites with i think it's more
than one -third pornographic content have to
have like more robust age verification yeah yeah
um i mean at least in theory i think that's a
good idea in practice it puts a lot of pressure
on potentially very small websites. Because if
you look at mainstream film, they have to get
certificates like 18, 15, PG, whatever. But we've
got a relatively small number of production companies
which are relatively big and relatively wealthy.
But when you put the same kind of pressure on
an individual shooting from their bedroom, if
you give them the same responsibility to... to
implement age verification on their website it
might not be possible for them it might not be
affordable so we've seen some smaller websites
being shut down or shutting themselves down over
this yeah and then all of the the data privacy
issues that come with that as well like now these
porn websites have everyone's credit card details
and passport photos like that's not ideal and
potentially they could leak the sort of porn
that you're buying which is obviously for a lot
of people it's their absolute worst nightmare
the idea of the whole world finding out what
they're into yeah so yeah it's an interesting
time for the industry for sure but even on a
more practical level i feel like it might sound
a little bit ageist but definitely for kind of
younger generations that kind of age verification
in the uk might as well not be there because
everybody knows that you can get vpns you don't
even have to pay for them no and you immediately
get around it it's so i think in the us they're
trying to make either make vpns illegal or like
regulate them in some additional way i just read
about this last week so yeah clearly what will
happen next yeah is vpns are going to be in the
firing line and i believe quite a lot of people
have to use them for completely legitimate normal
day jobs i have one for my day job okay right
yeah my day job as well yeah so that's clearly
not been really thought out very well yet i think
the uk government have talked at least in vague
terms about age restricting them because if you
need them for work you're an adult but okay but
it does start to just get messier and messier
and any protections you put in place to make
it harder The young people are going to figure
out a way around it. Like a 14 year old who wants
to watch porn is going to find porn. Yes. And
it's going to take them about 20 minutes. You
ban VPNs, you ban torrent sites, you require
age verification. They're still going to do it.
Like when this age verification rolled out, there
were a bunch of teenagers who were getting access
to Pornhub by using a filter from a video game.
and using like a live like feed of their video
game character like the teenagers will figure
it out yeah it's gonna be the sort of 60 plus
who are like i guess i can't watch porn anymore
which just doesn't seem fair no it doesn't and
i feel like um you know the the biggest porn
studios have got resources to throw at it but
the people who are representing minority sexual
tastes are more likely to suffer so we're likely
to see if this really is implemented successfully
we'll start to see a lot more vanilla representation
and a lot less representation of stuff that really
needs to be represented to make people aware
that they're not alone yeah so that is troubling
but interesting and I think it might get quite
a lot worse before it gets any better but we'll
see it's such a tricky one because no one really
wants to like stand up and fight for their right
to watch porn because no one wants to talk about
the fact that they watch porn and a lot of people
do and there's that risk of Almost like respectability
politics in it, isn't it? And you see it sometimes
on FetLife where there's a big reaction to a
particular kink, kind of negative reaction to
a particular kink. Oh, well, we should ban that
kink because that kink is wrong and bad. Well,
that's fine. But where do you draw the line?
If you get rid of that really out there kink,
then what about the next most out there? kink
and the one after that and the one after that
and it's kind of like you say it's just shrinking
what is acceptable Totally. I think about that
a lot because I shoot some stuff that is quite
marginal and quite edgy. And if it was in real
life, it would be really terrible. Like, you
know, any kind of CNC stuff, of course it would
be criminal. But then I think, I mean, but it
wouldn't be okay for a secretary to start stripping
in the office either. And I do that all the time.
And I mean, is any of this okay? And the answer
is like, no, not really. No, it's not okay to
flirt with your step -nephew. Even if he is only
a step -nephew, that's not okay. And yeah, certainly
exposure to this industry as time has gone on,
I have found myself becoming less and less judgmental,
even of things that are very surprising to hear
about. I just try to hear about new things, new
to me kinks with a kind of spirit of open hearted
curiosity rather than any kind of judgment. And
having grown up in a very judgmental religion,
that doesn't necessarily come particularly naturally,
but it's really important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I was just thinking we had an electrician around
recently, didn't we? I think we would have had
something to say if he suddenly started stripping
off. Yeah. In the middle of the kitchen. I think
the cats would as well. The cats were already
scared enough. True. The cats usually like visitors,
but they just took a dislike to the electrician.
They both cowered under my desk, glaring the
entire time he was here. They did not trust him.
I don't think they liked him. taking the guts
out of their house. Yeah. Maybe they were right.
Was he quite a horrible man, do you think? No,
he seemed lovely. He's quite tall, he's quite
well built, and he's got a bit of a booming voice.
Yeah. But yeah, no, they were both just cowering
away, weren't they? Anyway. Is that... Because
you don't just work in the UK, you work all over
the world. Is that different in other countries,
that kind of approach to censorship and legislation,
or is it... Yes. In the States, like don't quote
me on exactly this, but like Florida, for example,
I think any BDSM is illegal. I mean, I don't
think anyone's been prosecuted or not that I've
heard of at least. In the UK, basically all impact
play is technically illegal and you can't consent
to assault. So that's a big issue for those of
us who like to be assaulted. I'm like... in a
controlled environment. And so there are some
countries that they don't seem to have any laws
that particularly address this stuff. So some
countries and some states in the US, you'd be
in a better position doing this kind of thing.
But no, it does vary quite a lot. I think there's
something in Singapore. Oh my gosh, in Singapore,
if someone sees you naked, in your house so if
they can see you from outside that's illegal
like you've committed a like public indecency
offense thing so yes it varies a lot was it singapore
where you nearly got arrested it was it was nudity
yes yes like when no one saw the nudity police
seized the photographer's camera and saw that
we'd shot nudity. And that counted as public
nudity, even though no one had seen it, which
was new to me. Like, that is not something I'd
expected. So, yes. And fortunately slash unfortunately,
Visa and MasterCard are everywhere. So the fact
that their rules are kind of stricter than most
countries' rules means that there is a sort of
unifying... thing yeah that even if you are living
in a country that's super duper liberal mastercard
slash visa will still be able to shut you down
stop you being able to make any money from it
wherever you're based so yeah really the economic
censorship so far has been worse than any particular
territories right um attempt at censoring us
are there many people working using cryptocurrency
and stuff to get around that or is it just not
stable enough to really be viable yeah i I only
know of one person who takes cryptocurrency as
payment. So there might be some very edgy, exciting
people who I don't know about who are using it.
But no, only one of the people I know has used
it at all. I figured because of how much it fluctuates,
it's never really become viable for running a
business because that's not how business works.
You can't have your income double or half overnight.
No, no, that would be really stressful. at the
whim of some fella in a white house yeah saying
something weird yeah i'm not clever enough to
understand it i don't want to i want pounds you
done with your section mix yeah cool i i take
a break for this bit yeah i was gonna say i mean
at this point makes really you should probably
get a cuppa and chill because you're far too
well adjusted for this we're gonna talk a little
bit about trauma and came And this is dangerous
because this would run to about four hours. Once
we start trauma dumping, we just go. Like the
number of times we've been out to dinner and
Mix is just sitting there in the corner, like
gently dissociating. It's always really, I will
say it is always really, really interesting and
really fascinating to listen to. I just cannot
relate to it. No, well, I'm glad. I almost feel
sorry for that. You have a very lovely family
and a very nice life. And we love that for you.
Well done. But we had, as we've touched on a
little bit with the very conservative sort of
religious upbringing, but also various other
things that happened. Like we, obviously, I know
you've started to talk about this a little bit
more publicly recently. And I have as well that
we... We went through quite a lot of abuse as
children separately because of the age gap. But
then as we've been adults, we've talked about
it. How have you found that with kink? Do you
feel like the two bleed into each other at all
or not for you? I'm really interested in this
subject, as you know, because I think our approaches
have been different, wildly different. And it's
hard for me to disentangle a little bit because
as a professional submissive, I've been dominated
by all sorts of different people, like men, women,
like older people, younger people, all of this.
And broadly speaking, it's okay. But what I actually
get something out of personally is I'm just a
heterosexual woman. I like being dominated by
men. I can do other stuff for work, but my preference
will always be that. And that might be just that
I'm heterosexual or it might be that I am avoiding
stuff that feels reminiscent of some of the worst
things from my childhood. And I don't really
have an answer for that. Although I've been doing
this a really long time, it's only been a tiny
handful of times where I've done something at
work or in play where there's been a kind of
resonance in an uncomfortable way that I thought,
God, this suddenly is reminding me of something
that I don't want to be remembering in this nice,
sexy situation. But it has been only a handful
of times. But I guess you could say I was maybe
avoiding anything that is likely to kind of trigger
the worst things. Like, for example, I don't
really do any religious kind of play. The idea
of being like a naughty nun being punished by
like the Mother Superior, that doesn't sound
hot to me. And I don't know if that's... because
of abuse or just because well i'm heterosexual
i like men in suits or maybe pirate costumes
so i would say i guess generally the two just
those two things um so i guess you would say
i was kind of avoidant of stuff that feels a
bit close to home yeah whereas i think your strategy
or your um preference is very different yeah
i'm very much an emotional masochist and i like
to find the triggers and poke at them a little
bit um so i i mean there's definitely things
where i feel like trauma has shaped some of my
limits i'm very uncomfortable with anything involving
age play or like sort of addressing a partner
as daddy or mommy that right yeah that comes
to a line for me because it makes me feel not
just helpless but powerless okay there's a subtle
distinction for me i like feelings of helplessness
i don't like complete powerlessness um and being
in a position where i feel like i'm in a childlike
role or someone else's in a parental role is
really challenging for that and tends to just
make me angry like positions where i feel like
i'm being treated like a child i don't just mean
in kink i mean in life in general if i feel like
i'm being spoken to like a child It's the worst
side of me you will ever see because just the
pure rage that comes out is like a defense mechanism.
Okay, yeah. So that's an area where I'm definitely,
where my trauma has shaped sort of how I respond
to those kinks, whether I'd have been into them
or not, otherwise is impossible to know. But
my strong reaction to them is definitely trauma
shaped. But in other areas, it's like, no, poke
at it. Poke at it really bad. I don't know. I
think I'm definitely, I'm an emotional, I'm a
general purpose emotional masochist. It's not
just in kinks. So like a lot of the music I listen
to is stuff that makes me cry. And it's like,
if that makes me cry, that's a real banger. Yeah,
I can relate to that. Certainly, yeah. In a non
-sexual way. Yeah. Yes. And that just very much
bleeds over into my sexuality where I like to...
I think there's a lot of freedom in it. It's
like these are really strong emotions that really
governed a lot of my life. You know, like my
feelings around my trauma drove me into unhappy
relationships. They put me into dangerous situations
with potentially abusive people. They pushed
my addiction. They drove self -harm. Like a lot
of really bad stuff happened because of my trauma,
because I felt like it was driving me. And so
putting myself back in the driver's seat and
going, today we're going to play with sexual
abuse trauma. Let's poke it. It takes the power
and puts it in my hands instead. And that feels
really freeing. And I think having a controlled
environment to feel all the stuff. And instead
of, like a lot of my most self -destructive behavior
has come from, I'm going to try to shut this
down. I don't want to feel that. So I'm going
to drug it or I'm going to drink it or I'm going
to hurt myself and that'll make it go away. Instead
going like, we've got like a protected bubble
here and we're going to get it all out. and blow
it up to 100 times bigger and make it as bad
as possible and then in two hours time it's going
to be over and you're not going to have to deal
with it anymore and it's like it's boxed off
that feels really freeing as well really comforting
so i do you think you are actually looking for
kind of trauma resolution in your play or is
it just that it's hot a little of both okay yeah
a little both it's i don't ever do kink purely
with the aim of like this is therapy because
it's not sure and i think it could be quite risky
to try to approach it like that there's always
an element of this is hot or this is meeting
some need that might not be entirely sexual so
i would say like the interrogation scene we did
for example generally didn't feel sexual because
it was just it was just too intense to get into
that space but it met a lot of needs that weren't
weren't therapy and weren't sex it was kind of
challenge and and sort of overcoming adversity
and that kind of stuff that can feel really good
um so i can be pursuing some kind of need like
that and then it's like as a side effect of that
also it straightens some stuff out in my brain
so even though you're not seeking therapy in
that regard it actually has been somewhat therapeutic
definitely yeah i think it's important for people
to know that kink isn't a substitute for therapy,
but I would also say that therapy is not a substitute
for kink. Yeah. It can really address things
in a very different way. And for someone like
me, who outside of kink really has difficulty
with authority figures, has difficulty with trust,
has probably some residual issues, particularly
with opening up to women, but also has issues
with opening up to men for different reasons.
Like therapy is very, very challenging for me
to access where kink is not. So it gives me a
kind of side route into dealing with some of
that stuff. Yes, I can understand that. And certainly
I relate to the just feeling angry. So that is
exactly what happens sometimes if something I'm
doing at play or work strays into stuff that
feels too close to really horrible memories.
What I discover is I just suddenly feel angry.
I don't feel terribly upset and tearful. I just
feel angry. And when I'm angry, I'm not submissive.
So it's just like a sort of switch. Well, now
I'm irritated. I was in a scene years and years
ago. I was doing a spanking shoot and it was
a headmaster student storyline. I was obviously
the student and he, the headmaster, called me
stupid. And I... well i thought well i'm not
going to make any noise now when you spank me
at all because now i'm annoyed and it wasn't
me at my most submissive i just felt irritated
yeah and yeah that's it's quite easy to tip over
into irritation um and yeah that's not really
my kink but i think that i honestly feel pretty
grateful and glad that although our strategies
are different The things we went through didn't
kind of crush this interest that we both have.
I wouldn't like to be without this part of me.
It's a really precious part of me. I really love
it. And I can see how it might have done for
some people. Maybe it would have just made them
avoidant of this whole world of power exchange
because it would just feel too risky and too
tainted. And so I think it's really lucky that
it didn't do that to us. I think people sometimes
as well feel like they need to explain all of
their kinks as coming from their trauma and that
can taint it in its own way as well. Like, oh
yeah, I'm into all this and it's just a trauma
response. And it's like, my kinks are definitely
shaped by trauma, but I don't think I would be
less kinky if I didn't have trauma. I think just
the flavour and the way that I express it would
be different. Totally, yeah. And I might have
a slightly wider spectrum of things I was interested
in if it wasn't. possibly but but yeah i mean
i'm happy with what i've got yeah in terms of
sexuality and kink it doesn't feel like it's
robbed me of a whole load of things i'd have
really liked to enjoy and it clearly hasn't done
that for you because like you're happy poking
at that stuff yeah i i really like i think there's
a lot of power in it for me i think a lot of
the ways that i sort of poke at trauma through
kink is It's about feeling a lot of power in
it, feeling I'm back in control of it, even though
I look for as little power as possible in my
life. It's deciding what parts of myself I hand
over and what I allow people to weaponize. Yes.
It all happens very much on my terms. And I think
there's a certain amount of just releasing this
pressure that survivors of abuse often put on
ourselves of being like, I must fix myself to
be the person I was pre -trauma. oh wow like
this idea of I must put the pieces of myself
back together and I must erase this thing that
happened and that's impossible when when abuse
started so young oh my gosh yeah like I can't
recover that person because I have no idea who
that person would have been no I mean that person
didn't really exist yeah I mean because they'd
be unrecognizable yeah um so instead of trying
to do that instead of trying to repair all the
damage it's going actually because of the life
I've had I think trauma bonds are really hot
Because of the life I've had, love to me looks
like violence, and so does sex. And because of
the life I've had, being verbally abused makes
me feel valued. And that's fucked up. We can
acknowledge that it's fucked up. But that's the
reality that I'm living in. So instead of trying
to recover the person that I would have been,
and instead of trying to undo all of that, and
instead of trying to figure out this impossible
tangle of... of who i would have been without
all of these ingredients that have been put in
let's just work with with what i've got to work
with yeah and have a good time with it yeah yeah
just like playing the hand that we have yeah
i'm very interested that you are capable of kind
of enjoying what sound to me like just insults
like you you seem to quite enjoy being insulted
like physically yeah which it interests me very
much because basically what the abuse did to
me if I kind of distill it, it's four main beliefs
I had about myself. The belief that I was ugly,
stupid, lazy, and, like, dirty. Yeah, same. Okay.
What a surprise. I wonder why. Yeah, that person
really just, like, picked a theme and stuck to
it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to admire the
consistency. Yeah. And so, like, My play partners
tell me I'm beautiful and clever and hardworking
and clean. Those things are really important
and it's very entertaining to me and kind of
flabbergasting that no, you're quite up for being
told you're ugly. Ugly, disgusting pig, yes.
I mean, I'm glad for you because it seems like,
well, that's a decent way of processing it. If
that is where it comes from, then great. But
I don't relate. I like very gentlemanly behaviour
from a dominant. I like kind of courtesy. Like,
you know, wiping away my tears with a pocket
handkerchief and then caning me some more. And
not telling me I'm ugly. So it's an interesting
case study, I guess, in two individuals who have
rather similar... backgrounds but have just processed
stuff differently yeah definitely I think it's
I don't know why it happens so differently but
a lot of that for me is like when someone who
I know really loves and really respects me says
things like that to me it just highlights how
ridiculous it is oh okay because because like
in the moment I can still feel that I can still
get upset in the moment but in the the sort of
outside of that bubble of play it's like I know
that Mix doesn't think I'm ugly and that they
don't think I'm disgusting Like, I know that.
So it just means that those things have absolutely
no real weight to them. And then people who've
said them and meant it just go into that same
sort of like, same clown car. It's like, that's
fake. So what's it like for you, S? Like, dealing
or like playing with someone with this stuff
in their background? I think I find it quite
challenging sometimes, especially if we introduce
a new idea. I think if I think back to the beginning
of our relationship, we kind of had that conversation
where you kind of shared a lot of information
about what had happened to you and some kind
of areas to explore, I suppose. And we had that
conversation, gave me the list, and I was just...
like horrified horrified on two levels but not
in a kind of negative or a critical way horrified
because that happened but also horrified by the
idea that i might weaponize that and use it yeah
that was a that that kind of emotional sadism
was a really new thing right yes to me and it's
a lot more challenging than just hitting someone
harder yeah there is there is a world of difference
between calling someone a filthy slut Yes. And
targeting someone as a person in the way that
they have previously been targeted. Yeah. I mean,
the privilege of being given that information.
Yeah. But the responsibility of using it. Yeah,
absolutely. So, yeah, there was absolutely that
level of like, holy shit, this is a big deal
to be trusted with this level of information,
this level of access. And I think I'm still doing
it, to be fair. kind of working through some
of that and we'll try something and we'll poke
at a particular drama or we'll push at a particular
topic. And then I will have that kind of, I think,
perfectly natural response of going, what kind
of fucking monster am I? And then retreat a little
bit. Yeah. And then try again and then retreat
a little. That's brave. It sounds brave. It sounds
quite hard. It is because in the moment, you
know not ashamed to say in the moment it's really
exciting and really hot and really and again
it's that kind of display of of of power i think
which is a real core of a lot of my kinks it's
the moments after yeah where i go holy shit that
just happened didn't it um and you cariesel because
they are incredibly resilient just bounces back
right it's like oh yeah let's get some let's
get some greasy meats from the internet right
you know yeah like my aftercare needs for emotional
masochism are very very low generally i feel
like i'm on a high afterwards yeah that's interesting
i mean and i relate like i'm not like i'm not
in a kind of weepy post subspace state generally
i kind of feel like i've bungee jumped it's lovely
and the feeling of achievement you know it's
not like i feel victimized it feels good yeah
um has i mean because this does sound edgy and
has it ever gone wrong like I wouldn't necessarily
say gone wrong. I think it is... There's been
once that I can think of where it hit me a lot
harder than I ever expected it to, where because
of the way that we negotiate things is we'll
talk about what's on the table, but the where
and the when and the how is very much left to
mix. And there'd been about an 18 month gap between
negotiating a scene and that actually landing.
So it was completely unexpected for me. And it
was probably the most emotionally sadistic thing
that they'd ever done. And I was absolutely fine
in the immediate aftermath of the scene, but
I got... like my mental health had a little bit
of a dip the next day and it wasn't major it
wasn't long lasting and it wasn't unsafe but
it was unexpected and i ended up having to like
take a half day off work and um they took me
to the metro center to buy a squeaky pig toy
that soothes me very much um so it was like something
where the pig that cures ptsd ptsd um so yeah
it was definitely a time where my aftercare needs
were higher than expected and that sort of has
gone into our risk management moving forward
of like okay if we're going to poke really hard
at something that we haven't done before Like,
maybe not on a Tuesday night. Make sure that
you're going to be around to keep an eye on me
for a day or two afterwards, that kind of thing.
So we've just sort of adjusted course with the
really edgy stuff. But it's not been anything...
There's not been any scenes we've done that I've
regretted. And generally, my experience has been
that my limits are further out than most dominants.
Like, for us to find the level that I'm not comfortable
with would require us to go well past the point
that Mix isn't comfortable with. So it's very
unlikely to happen for me. Yeah, I mean, honestly,
that... I mean, I'm sorry it happened, but that
really doesn't sound too bad. Yeah. If that was
the worst when you've been deliberately poking
at trauma. I mean, that seems great. That seems
like a very good result. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent.
I think a part of that is down to mix being as
much of an overthinker as they are. That sort
of guilt and that fear of going too far can sometimes
be a hindrance for you. But a lot of the time,
it's also a really good safety factor that it
doesn't allow us to just impulsively jump into
things because they need their two months processing
time to figure out how they feel about themselves
as a human being. And by the time they've done
that, we've done our risk assessment. Yeah, yeah.
No, I can absolutely see that. It's a very, it
feels for me like a very gradual. kind of escalation
doesn't it it's it's i don't think it's as gradual
as you think i think if you look back to where
we started with this kind of trauma play and
emotional sadism the stuff you're doing now would
horrify the you from two years ago that's true
that yeah that's and probably impressed them
quite a lot what kind of monster are you but
i think some of the stuff that we're doing at
the moment about, in theory, ramping up some
crueler aspects of eye dynamic. I suppose that's
taken me a little while to get my head around.
It's one of those things, it's really hot in
theory, and I want to give it a go. It's that
overthinking to the point of paralysis sometimes
and kind of thinking about all of the different
angles and what might be... too much what might
be not enough i suppose and how do we manage
that i think yeah i think it's when we take it
out of controlled individual scenes and start
integrating it into the dynamic that's where
it feels less controllable for you and that's
where yeah where you're thinking through risk
a lot yeah that sounds that sounds like it would
be pretty challenging i know one of the things
you don't do i don't think is you don't kind
of take refuge in role playing so you're being
someone else yeah we're basically like versions
of ourselves all the time obviously not always
the exact same versions of ourselves that you
see on a day -to -day basis but we're not like
a nurse or a pirate or anything like that we're
just just just tweaked versions of who we are
And I think maybe one of the ways I have avoided
stuff that feels too resonant from my past is
by taking refuge in roles. Because, yeah, if
you're being a pirate, you didn't have a bad
childhood. Are we saying the pirates generally
had great childhoods? Yeah, happy childhoods.
Okay. They grew up on a boat. Yes, exactly. Foreign
travel, dolphin friends. It would be fine. Desert
Island, mint. Yes. I know something you've done
differently for me. Stop me if you don't want
this on the podcast. You've done some therapy.
Yes. How have you found that as a kinky person?
Because I have done a little bit, but not very
much. And I know that that's sometimes tricky
for people to navigate. Yes, I got really lucky
because I tried having therapy a few years before
the time that I found a therapist who was actually
good for me. And actually, in the time I saw
my first therapist, which was only probably...
like four or five sessions. I never actually
told her I was kinky and I never told her the
sort of modelling I did. And I was aware that
partly it was because she wasn't asking the right
questions, I guess, but partly it was that I
didn't know how to explain that. So I stopped
having therapy and I only started again when
I got a personal recommendation from someone,
someone who I know slightly, who had this therapist
and this guy who recommended her, he is kinky.
So he had outed himself as kinky to her, and
he said her response was entirely positive. So
I felt safe just from the outset, saying, okay,
I'm a BDSM model. That's what I do. That's also
my sexual identity. And so I personally was totally
fine. So I'm always trying to recommend my therapist
to kinky people because I know that she's never
even questioned whether that might be a part
of my life that I should look at and adjust at
all. We've looked at many, many other aspects
of my life, but she's just accepted what I've
said about my kinky life being... one of the
healthiest and best bits of my life she's just
accepted that and that's been really valuable
because i've needed to talk about lots of stuff
but i don't need to talk about whether my job
is bad for me or whether my sexuality is a result
of bad stuff happening in my past and that's
been really nice and affirming so it's been incredibly
helpful for me but i'm sad to hear that that
is not everyone's experience of therapy at all
so yeah i had some therapy like i've only had
a very little bit of therapy after me and my
ex broke up because at the point i got referred
into therapy i was in crisis and by the time
i got seen by a therapist i was not like it was
quite a brief crisis like i was just having some
very strong emotions without the emotional resilience
to handle them um and they didn't really know
what to do with me because Because I'm very self
-aware and therapists don't always love that.
And I have a lot of coping strategies. And I
was in a pretty stable place by the time I got
into therapy. So they're like, well, why are
you here? And I was like, well, because next
time I go through an inconvenience in my life,
I don't want to want to die about it. Like, can
we teach me to not get to that stage? They didn't
know how to do that. So I wasn't there for very
long. But they were great about King. Like, they
didn't... They didn't have a negative reaction
to that. Sort of the, what we spent the sessions
I had doing was kind of going through like all
of my life story, basically just so I could get
it all out to somebody. And that seemed to help
a little bit. That was still like felt valuable.
And so kink was a part of that and they were
really positive and really encouraging about
it. Like that's nice. You figured out what you
want in relationships. That's really good. And
at the time I had some fears that because I'd
been so compatible with my ex -partner, I was
worried I wouldn't be able to find a compatible
partner again with all the stuff I'm into. You
seem to have achieved it. I did. Yeah, definitely.
And the therapist seemed to just get that, as
far as I know, wasn't kinky herself, but immediately
understood why that would be a fear for me if
I have very non -standard desires. Like, of course,
that's going to be scary to be single again suddenly
after thinking you've got it all sorted out.
I think it's getting that way more and more where
people are more aware of the need to be like
that. Like, I know you said you had, like, surgery
and you told the medical team they were going
to see stuff on your body that was going to make
it clear. Just the fact that you did that and
their response was, was absolutely fine it was
really nice thing to hear yeah like medical experiences
like that have been really positive that was
when i was getting my tubal ligation done and
the surgeon's only question was were there any
scars around the points where she wanted to cut
into me and she had a look to check that that
wasn't going to be an issue um it was a bit funnier
after the operation though because someone who
hadn't been involved in my initial sort of care
team was looking after me as i came around and
she needed to roll me over to check if there
were any kind of pressure sores or anything while
i'd been unconscious and i was still loopy from
all the drugs and couldn't communicate very well
so she's like i'm gonna roll you over now and
i went oh ho ho you're going to see something
and she went what am i gonna see and i was like
you're gonna see something Oh my God. And she
rolled me over and what she saw was the brand
across my lower back that says fuck pig. That
is something. And I just lay there cackling because
I was high as balls. It's amazing. So she was
definitely surprised. Yes. Years and years and
years ago, I had an appointment which I didn't,
I wasn't expecting to have to take any of my
clothes off. I thought it was like. they were
meeting me to talk to me about a physical thing.
And then unexpectedly they wanted, I think I
need to take my top off or something. And my
husband had written his name on like the back
of my neck. And I'd forgotten. And they were
like, what? Because it's not a tattoo because
it was a mess. They were like, what is this?
And I was like, my husband was writing on me.
And we just didn't mention why he might have
been doing that. We just ignored it. But I really
like to think that this is becoming less taboo.
And that... different lifestyles are being accepted
a bit more readily without medical professionals
thinking they need to do an intervention yeah
the most i've ever had is people just saying
like i just need to check is has that all been
some from something consensual or do you want
to talk about anything which is a good thing
for them to do good to open that conversation
absolutely um i had that when i went for a cervical
screening test um i'd got really uh from my first
hookup with mix actually massive bruises down
both inner thighs like fully black it was great
i don't bruise like that anymore i'm now but
it was great at the time um the person doing
the the test just said like i just i have to
ask is that from something consensual and i was
like yeah yeah and then she told me a story about
how once she'd had a patient come in to have
a cervical screening done and got there and realized
that her labia were padlocked together and that
her boyfriend had the key oh my god and had to
leave amazing I do sometimes think about where
we might be in like 50 years time as a society
with kink acceptance, because I would have thought
it would just get better and better. But because
of the political situation in the world at the
moment, you know, it's not getting better and
better in the US at the moment. And so we quite
often follow the US to some extent. So I don't
want to assume it's just going to be just lovely
open season with everyone being open. But I would
love to believe that it might be. And stories
like that kind of make me think, yeah, maybe,
maybe. I think overall things are moving in the
right direction. I think the thing that's tricky
is like a lot of Gen Z sort of experience their
kind of sexual awakenings during COVID time and
have been sort of conditioned by that to be quite
fearful of sex. And a lot of the most negative
reactions they get are from people a decade younger
than me. And that's concerning. That is worrying
because that indicates the direction things might
go. And I think it sort of circles back to what
we talked about earlier about impact versus optics
with feminism. I think because of... Because
of social media being something that now most
people have grown up on, the shift has happened
from your impact to your optics because being
sort of cancelled or being publicly criticised
or being like publicly dogpiled used to be a
thing that just happened to celebrities and now
it happens to teenagers. And I think what that
does to people's headspace where we're constantly
on, constantly performing, constantly trying
to demonstrate our values and our beliefs and
what we're trying to do with our lives. That
takes people's focus into the optics very, very
strongly. And then that leads to the policing
and that leads to the fear of being weird and
fear of being cringe and fear of doing something
that's against social norms. And I think the
impact of that is potentially terrifying. No,
no, totally. I agree. I just really hope that
in 20 years time going in for surgery, like you
wouldn't even have to worry about whether people
would respond. Yeah, I just I hope that's the
direction we end up going in. Yeah. So just a
slight change of tone for this one. You're not
going to do one of your smooth podcast segways
mix. You're just going to change topic abruptly.
I'm just going to abruptly change topic because
I can't quite work out how I get from talking
about trauma and the hopes for the future generations
into talking about your books. Because as well
as being a famous model, you are also. also a
published author i am so tell us about that i
wrote my first book which is a memoir called
playing to lose um in during covid and it was
published in 2023 and i have just finished my
second book which is called dirty which is hopefully
coming out like sometime between May and July
this year. And Carisel is in this one because
when I wrote the first one, we weren't in touch.
So I certainly wasn't going to start like telling
your story just without permission. And anyway,
I was telling mine. I am very much the side character
here. But this time I wrote about a year in my
life. So it's got lots of stuff about being a
professional BDSM performer. But one of the things
we were doing in 2024, which is the year I wrote
about, was trying to get some sort of resolution,
some kind of justice for the things we experienced
as children. So it was a sort of more difficult
book to write in some ways because it was talking
about stuff that had been too painful to address
in my first book. I think I just needed a bit
more experience as a writer before I was even
comfortable opening up that much. But also it
feels... Maybe kind of more of an important book
to me, even because as a submissive model, I
think, especially and as a submissive, I've always
wanted to tell people that I've got a really
happy background. No, I'm perfect. I'm perfectly
fine. My background is fine. I'm just kinky because
I am. It's nothing to do with trauma. And I honestly
don't think it is because of trauma. But writing
my second book and kind of admitting to a really
suboptimal. childhood it it feels like opening
myself up to accusations that you know i'm a
sex worker because i'm damaged and or i'm submissive
because i'm damaged and i've got low self -esteem
or something so it's it's scary to have written
but i often think maybe your best creative work
is the stuff that is challenging and frightening
to produce so i'm actually really excited about
coming out um And it's frightening, but that
feels worthwhile. So yes, happy about it. I think
for what it's worth, people assume that you are
submissive and a sex worker because you're damaged,
regardless of whether you disclose the damage.
So you might as well. That is absolutely true.
I found that whether I disclose it or not, I
get the same reaction. So it's like, fuck it,
just tell them what happened. Yeah, and I think
to be able to say... And at this point in my
life, I have a sex life that delights me and
romance in my life that makes me feel really
happy and valued. And my life is OK. My life
is together. You know, that's true as well. So
it's not like I'm having to confess to just being
a massive fuck up and my whole life's been a
fuck up because of my fucked up childhood. And
I think hopefully that sends actually quite a
useful and important message that you can you
can have come from a non -ideal. place but you
can end up okay anyway what sort of reaction
did the did your first book have oh it was really
lovely because for most of my career the feedback
i've got has been from people who have masturbated
to my porn so they do say very nice things but
basically it's it's variants of oh and then i
came but the sort of response you get when someone's
read your book is yeah it tends to be a bit subtler
a bit more varied so what i mostly got from my
first book is just a lot of letters from people
who were ex -jehovah's witnesses or people who'd
grown up in various religious cults and honestly
like speaking to those people felt really valuable
especially i've like some ex -jehovah's witnesses
who are kinky have got in touch because of course
it's a big religion there will be there'll be
a few of us yeah um and being submissive is not
like a tiny proportion of the population so it
was just lovely because you know i wanted to
write a book for the 16 year old i once was and
so they then to hear from a whole load of people
who had felt rather similar to me it's definitely
it's very motivating like once you've got letters
like that you definitely want to write more I'm
sure you feel the same yeah like I I never expected
the the sort of impact that my TikTok has had
when I started it it started out as just a bit
of fun and then even once I started answering
questions and leaning a little bit more educational
I didn't expect some of the messages I've ended
up having like really personal things people
have shared with me and and ways that content
has been helpful and that does that does feel
really rewarding. Yes. Keeps you going even when
it's stressful and annoying and nothing seems
to be working right. Like it's knowing that you're
doing positive things for people is great. And
I think it's really interesting because I consume
a lot of media. I watch a lot of YouTube and
the YouTubers I watch, they're really valuable
to me for all sorts of different reasons. And
to have consumed so much of other people's product
and then make your own and have people respond
to it the way. I respond as an audience member.
I mean, that's just, it's lovely because it feels
like I can't have a huge cultural impact, but
I can have a little drop in the ocean of cultural
impact. And, you know, I'm really happy about
that. I know I'm not going to achieve anything
absolutely massive, but I can have my small effect
on social change and destigmatisation of kink
and sex work. And I'm really proud to have that.
And I like writing. I write in cafes. When I'm
writing, I'm allowed pots of tea and sometimes
a cake. It feels quite sophisticated, doesn't
it? Sitting in a cafe with your laptop. It feels
very sophisticated. And also it feels so different
from my day job because I can wear whatever I
want. I can wear quite a lot of clothes when
I'm writing. And I like that. I'm always cold.
So yeah, it's great. That's fair. I'm usually,
my writing is usually... Typing with my thumbs
on my phone curled up shrimp style. Oh my gosh.
Oh, I can never. Wow, that's very impressive.
I find it a lot easier to write on my phone than
I do on a laptop or anything now because I'm
on my phone all the time. So I'm... Oh, wow.
I cannot imagine writing anything significant
on my phone. Very, very millennial vibes with
my writing. Yeah. Usually in the notes app, not
even a word processor. And using your thumbs.
Apparently that's massively millennial. Like
I don't use my thumbs. I use a mix. It depends
on what I'm typing. Sometimes it is my thumbs.
Sometimes then I do switch to my fingers. But
either way, it's always on my phone. Oh gosh,
that is. So like long form stuff you write. Yeah.
Jesus. Yeah, literally everything I write. The
only stuff I do on the laptop is record the podcast.
Wow. We are very different in that regard. Well,
we've had this with our age gap where Mix is
horrified that I will book plane tickets on a
phone. That is a big internet. They wouldn't
feel real. Yeah, you're definitely big internet.
No, small internet. It's fine. It's a miracle
we went on holiday. It is. I wouldn't trust my
phone to buy anything that was more than like
£4 .99. I think it's something that we've talked
about as well. Because I am a little bit in awe
of both of you, if I'm honest, because you are
fabulously famous. thank you I have tried to
explain to them that I am not famous but it's
not worked but I think there's something interesting
about the you said you're not going to have a
you can have a tiny drop of impact in the cultural
ocean and I think if you're thinking about it
at the level of populations and that that might
be a fair thing to say but same thing that I've
said to Carisa in the past is there are people
out there that what you've written or what you've
recorded and put out there has a massive impact
on people. So at the individual level, it's huge.
Yeah, there's that, isn't there, at least. Yeah,
you can have a really big impact on a few people,
maybe, rather than a huge impact on loads of
people like Taylor Swift. I would not want to
be as famous as Taylor Swift. That just seems
like a nightmare. I wouldn't be as famous as
her. That's awful, awful. But I quite would.
I think, like, when I was, like, a teenager,
I thought I wanted that. But as soon as you start
having any level of public attention, I've just
realised, like, I don't want this scaled up.
Okay. I am at the exact level of famous I want
to be, which is not actually famous at all. Like,
that is very lucky because you get recognised,
but you get recognised in environments where
people... are a bit like you yeah like small
numbers of people every now and again yeah and
they're pretty chill mostly yes um no one has
broken into my home and slept in my bed for example
yeah a policeman at birmingham new street recognized
me and because it doesn't happen all the time
i really like it and so i think i was too effusive
and i think he started to regret that he'd said
anything Because I think I got quite excited
because he was in a police uniform. So I was
like, oh, are you going to arrest me? And I could
see him just dying. So I think I cured him by
saying hello to everyone. It's just, it always
makes me so happy. I feel like surely I'd be
more happy if this happened ten times. So I wanted
to ask, you mentioned the next book is coming
out sort of in the next couple of months, like
May, June kind of time. Where can people find
you if they want your first book and anything
else that you're creating? So my website is Ariel
Anderson Author. So you just need to spell Anderson
with two S's, E -N, or honestly, if you just
search Ariel Anderson. on Google. And if you
spell it wrong, it still comes up. So my website
has links. Also, you can find me on Twitter slash
X. I'm at Ariel Anderson and then you'll find
my links to everything. Oh, I'm on Substack,
which I love very much. So just search Ariel
Anderson Substack and I will appear and I advertise
and link to where you can buy my books from all
of those places. I will put some links in the
description of the podcast also. Thank you. You
are allowed to promote your porn here if you
want to. You're being very polite, being like,
I do books, I do books. Oh, bless you. Thank
you. You are allowed to promote your main job.
If you find me on X slash Twitter, you will also
see all of my porn. you're welcome that is pretty
much why anyone is still on x right it's the
only place where there's loads of porn so people
know i know and it's becoming so unsavory i think
x briefly blocked all of the porn stuff and oh
until you age verified yeah and honestly not
having to see all of my friends' vaginas for
a few days, it was quite nice. And I thought
that's not how I should feel, but actually it
can be a bit relentless. So I am relentlessly
pornographic on X, so don't come and look for
me unless that is what you are okay with. Amazing.
Well, thank you so much for joining us. This
has been really good. I feel like we definitely
diverted loads, as I knew we would, because when
we get together, we just trauma dump and overshare.
And Mick sits in the corner vibrating in entertainment
or horror, hard to tell. A little bit of both.
But we've kept you included this time. There
was less of the dissociating and more of the
participating. Yeah, it's been really good. Thank
you for having me. It makes me feel like a millennial
to be on a millennials podcast. Thank you so
much. Thanks for listening to this week's episode
of Don't Scare the Newbies. You can support us
on Patreon for a whole extra episode every month
and head to carizal .com for my blog and links
to everywhere else you can follow me. See you
next time.