Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carisel,
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carisel's dominant who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And today we have had another
movie night and we are finally going to be talking
about Secretary, which I think is the most requested
movie that people have been asking about. Yeah,
I think everybody seems to ask that one. There
was a little period, wasn't there, when everybody
wanted to know what we thought about Baby Girl.
oh we never talked about baby girl everyone forgot
about baby girl quite quickly yeah and so did
we So yeah, Secretary. Yeah, it's one of those
films of this type, I guess, along with Fifty
Shades of Grey that everybody has seen. Yeah.
And everybody has an opinion on. Yeah. And it's
quite old as well, like old enough that people
are probably like, oh, yeah, that's a classic.
Oh, God. What is it, 2002? It is. Yeah, mix.
And you say 2002 and you're like, that's not
that long ago. And then you. look at the time
and it's like ah fuck that's 24 years ago yeah
it is yeah to be fair it is nearly a quarter
of a century old i just it's it's it's a difficult
thing for me to get my head around yeah the things
that things that were made halfway through my
life are um are considered classics now i know
you know and i feel like the period in which
something becomes a classic is getting shorter
yeah maybe it's just because we're getting older
so time is moving a lot faster Wow, that's a
really fucking depressing thought to start the
podcast off with, isn't it? Jesus Christ. Thanks
for that. We're just going to pause for a sec
while I go and stare at the wall for a few minutes.
Just break for an existential crisis over here.
The wildest thing about Secretary, though, which
is not in any way related to how good it is as
a movie or the plot or any of that good stuff,
it's that I find James Spader with hair really,
really weird to look at. Does he not normally
have hair mix? Not anymore. I'm not sure if I've
seen him in anything else. No? No. No, he's put
a little bit of weight on as he's got older and
he's got less hair. Yeah. And now when I look
at him, it looks like he's wearing a wig. His
hair looks perfectly normal to me, I think, because
I'm not conditioned to expect him to be bald.
No, it's just so weird. It's really jarring to
see him as a relatively young man. There you
go. That's my take on Secretary. That's it. That's
the only thing I wrote down the entire film.
What the fuck is James Bader doing with air?
I mean, seeing as we are a kink podcast, not
a hairdressing podcast, we should probably talk
about some of the kink in it. Probably. Yeah.
And I really like the kink in it. We're obviously
going to dive into it deeper than that, but just
as a general overview, I think as far as kinky
movies go, it's a good one. It's my favourite.
I really love it. I've seen it a lot of times.
And I think it's important that we sort of talk
early on, get it out of the way, the exact same
criticisms we had of consent in Fifty Shades
of Grey and in Pillion and that we'll probably
have in every kinky movie that we ever watch
on this podcast do also apply to Secretary. And
it gets a pass from a lot of people, I think,
because it's so fucking good. Yeah. I've seen
a lot of people like comparing Fifty Shades to
it and was like, oh, Secretary is so much better.
And it's like, it is. But the things you're criticising
Fifty Shades for are also a problem here. Yeah,
but I think some of that forgiveness probably
comes from the way that the plot pans out. Yeah.
Which kind of make up for it. So you don't see
a specific negotiation scene in Secretary. Although
you do, weirdly, in Fifty Shades. Yeah. But it's
obvious that everybody's into it in this film
and the way that the story pans out. You're like,
okay, yeah. Clearly they have talked about something
at some point and they are both. into it yeah
i agree that's my interpretation too is that
the communication between the characters is lacking
the sort of good consent practices is lacking
but the enthusiastic consent and the active participation
is not a one -sided thing um but if it happened
in real life i would hope it would go without
saying that sexual harassment you can't hire
someone and then psychologically and sexually
torture them that's that's not allowed no For
that, you have to go on Tinder. Yes, true. Well,
do you want to give us a bit of a run through
of what occurs in the middle? Because we're not
going to do it scene by scene, are we? No. so
what's there what happens yes mix um secretary
is a film about a young woman called lee at the
start of the film she has just come out of a
mental institution where she has been because
of some difficulties with self -harm and she
returns to her family home and pretty soon after
that does start self -harming again there's a
lot of tension in her family both with her parents
being worried about her and a little bit on edge
around her because of her past but also difficulties
between them with her father being an alcoholic
and her parents having a really unhealthy relationship
um so she's trying to get back on track and get
her life in order she goes to try to find a job
and gets job as a secretary and very rapidly
things start to develop between her and her boss
who's a lawyer interestingly called mr gray yeah
yeah it's just that's just what dominance is
called now so mr gray is very very particular
about how he likes things done and can be very
harsh in how he corrects her behavior and it
is very clear that he is finding it hard to control
that side of himself and is getting something
from it more than just getting things done the
way that he likes them done yeah and lee starts
to realize that she is also getting something
from that she is getting some kind of fulfillment
from his harsh treatment and from his controlling
behavior they sort of fall into uh as far as
we see on screen at least quite unnegotiated
ds dynamic with a strong element of punishment
and discipline as part of it and then he starts
to pull back from that because of guilt and shame
around what he's doing and recognizing the way
he's gone about it is wrong Lee tries to explore
kink through other people that she meets and
doesn't find what she's looking for. And all
the time this has been going on, she's been sort
of reluctantly dating a guy that she grew up
with. And she commits to getting married to this
guy and to try to have a normal, typical vanilla
life. But ultimately, she is not able to go through
with that. The draw of this kinky lifestyle she's
found is too much. She comes back. to mr gray
and says that she wants this relationship with
him and he open to interpretation how this happens
but my view of it is very much that he's testing
if she really is prepared for what he is yeah
um leaves her to sit with her feet on the floor
and her hands on the desk for a period of several
days and then he returns to her after she has
proven her submission and they have a 24 7 dynamic
moving forward yeah that's a really good Really
good synopsis. I think there's a couple of really
interesting things for me about the plot is one
right at the start. Like he clearly gets through
quite a lot of secretaries. Yes. Because it's
not like a little sign in the window, is it?
It's a wooden sign with lights on it that he
hangs out whenever he loses a secretary. Yeah.
So I suspect this is not the first time that
Mr. Gray has tried this with his secretaries.
Yeah. Which is deeply problematic when you say
it out loud. Yes. And the other bit is, and we
had a bit of a conversation while we were watching
it, because I've seen it twice. Yeah. Both times
with you. And that sequence at the end where
she is sitting at the desk in his office, it's
over a period of days. People are coming in to
try and convince her to leave her fiancé, who
she's just left, her dad. There is a news crew.
All of that stuff is going on about this when
she's sitting at this desk. And I don't know,
on the second watch, whether all of that actually
happens. Yeah, I definitely think some of those
interactions were in her head. It feels like
the different parts of herself processing through
and almost arguing with herself. Yeah. But I
feel like the whole movie, it feels like it exists
in a slightly... sort of heightened reality or
slightly altered reality like it's got a little
bit of a this isn't supposed to quite feel like
the real world kind of like um the substance
very different movie yeah but it feels like you're
supposed to know this is a movie set yeah yeah
i see that i see i think the first time i watched
it i just thought oh yeah this is that kind of
just completely ridiculous yeah plot twist so
yeah of course her fiance goes in and her dad
goes in of course a news crew turns up and starts
talking about about it on the on the daily news
because that's just how this movie goes um but
the second time around i kind of thought what
like what you said actually no is this in her
head is she working things out for herself yeah
kind of in that moment and going no actually
this really is what i want nobody can convince
me otherwise not in a combative way but in a
in like a reflective way those things are popping
up and she is seeing those things because she
is processing Yeah. And I think the first time
we watched it together, we hadn't done our interrogation
scene yet. And obviously the second time we've
watched it together, we have. And it was interesting
seeing prolonged isolation as kink in the context
of having experienced it. Yeah. No, I wasn't
left alone for very long periods at all during
the interrogation because you were popping in
and out the room to do awful stuff to me. Yeah.
But I was left alone with my thoughts for some
periods that felt quite long at times. And your
head does start. creating scenarios and creating
dialogue with yourself and doing this stuff to
to pass the time and to make sense of the intense
situation you're in so i think having seen this
movie a bunch of times but i think my current
interpretation of that scene is that he did leave
her there she was there and isolated for a period
of time yeah probably a few hours yeah and that
was her process and her perception of time during
that yeah no i would agree with that Because
it does go into, like I say, it's a bit of flight
of fantasy right at the end, isn't it? I mean,
the whole film is a bit flight of fantasy, I
suppose, because, like you say, it's that very
weird situation, a very atypical situation. Yeah.
For two people to find themselves in. Yeah. I
love it. This is probably obvious from the fact
I've seen it loads of times and have slightly
different interpretations of bits of it every
time I see it. It is one of my favourite movies,
but how have you found it, Mix? Now you've seen
it twice. I probably enjoyed it more the second
time than I did the first time. Yeah. I think
I probably went into watching it the first time
quite sceptical because it was like, here we
go again. Yet another example of Hollywood trying
to do something with kinky relationships or BDSM
as a lifestyle and then just not getting it right.
So I think I went into it quite sceptical, but
enjoyed it. And then I think watching it the
second time round, A, with the knowledge of how
the plot goes, but also specifically because
I was paying more attention to it, because I
knew I was going to talk about it for an hour
and a half on a podcast episode. I think it's
quite clever. the way that it does it there's
a lot going on that you wouldn't notice unless
you were looking for it yeah which i really liked
about in terms of their like how their dynamic
plays out i think is really quite subtle not
very subtle in some ways but really quite subtle
in others yeah well you earlier on you mentioned
um something you'd spotted about how at one point
he asks he tells her that she should have put
more sugar in his coffee yeah and then at a later
point says now there's too much sugar in his
coffee yeah and i'd never picked up on that having
seen this probably eight or nine times and it
is just the more times you watch it the more
little subtle behaviors you start to spot like
that which is really cool yeah and that and that's
the kind of thing that i really liked about it
yeah like that even to them subtle power play
going on there you know because she could never
get it right and that's the point um But yeah,
I definitely didn't know it's like the first
time round. I think one of the things I really
like about it was finally there was a relatable
dominant. Yes. On the screen. Because he's not
Mr. Grey from Fifty Shades. He's not whatever
the guy's name is in Baby Girl. I can't even
remember the name of the actor there. How little
I care about that film. I will say I really liked
Baby Girl, but I don't think it's had a massive
cultural impact because the dominant was not
that interesting. I'm 100 % in it for the submissive,
but that's another episode. But finally, there
is a dominant character that not only can I relate
to, but is actually quite common in the kink
community and in the BDSM community. He's really
talented. He's very intelligent, but he is shy
as fuck and awkward as fuck. Yep. And in some
way neurodivergent. Yeah. Like, I'm not going
to label him as autistic, but yeah, very neurodivergent
in his approach to his work and the way he lives
his life. You know, his obsessive care over his
orchids and really quite elaborate system for
caring for them as well. Yes. Like the contraption
that he has to mist them and stuff like that.
Very fancy. So it was just nice to kind of turn
that trope on its head a little bit of kind of
the arrogant... The classically attractive, well
-built, rich, dominant man kind of thing, you
know, chiseled jaw and all of that kind of stuff.
And James Spader is an attractive man, but he
is not that stereotype that you usually see.
I agree, and very much played him as an awkward
nerd, which is what almost every dominant I've
ever met is. I really enjoy as well the switch
you see with him between like when he's interviewing
her and when he's talking to her and he's trying
not to step into his dominant role when he's
trying to just be his at work self. He struggles
to make eye contact. He's sort of awkwardly moving
his hands a lot. He can't seem to settle in one
position for very long and kind of moves around
the room. It's like he's not at home in his skin.
But then when he is acting in his dominant role.
You see direct eye contact, confident body language,
completely in control. And I've seen that flip
with every dominant that I've interacted with
socially and then have either played with or
watched play. Like that is what it is like. And
I find that so much more believable than characters
who are just this sort of perfectly confident,
perfectly charming, perfectly in control dominant
all the time because that's just not how people
are. Yeah, and it's really nice to see. Because
you're right, you can see the difference in him
when he's not doing that and trying not to do
that. And when he is doing that, when he feels
able to. And again, especially at the end, where
they are together in a 24 -7 DS dynamic, they
both seem so much more at ease. Like, in the
world, in that three -minute scene or whatever
it is at the end of the film. Definitely. Which
is really nice to see. Because you also don't
often see that. in this kind of film yeah you
know oh let's be fair my experience of kink films
is I haven't seen lots of them but They don't
all end happily, do they? I think it depends.
It depends on the film. And we have many more
that we all watch. I think it's not only relatively
rare to see a film about a couple ending up in
a kinky relationship together because we don't
have enough representation as it is, but for
the kink not to be presented as a barrier to
intimacy in any way. Secretary very much shows
the kink as the intimacy. When he pulls back
from the kink, he pulls back from everything.
When they resolve their problems and get together,
it's done through kink and it's done with kink
integrated into the relationship. they have in
pillion that we talked about yeah the nature
of the dynamic is a barrier to intimacy the message
of the film seemed to be very much you can't
do this 24 7 there needs to be a break there
needs to be a point where you get away from the
kink because the kink is what's blocking your
intimacy secretary says absolutely fuck that
yeah if you say to me we can't do this 24 hours
a day seven days a week i say why not Yeah. Like
that line is the core message of Secretary. And
that's why I love it so much, I think, because
it dares to say, actually, this stuff is really
fucking intimate. Yeah. I think what was interesting
to me about the way that it presented intimacy,
kink as being intimate, is there isn't actually
a lot of sex in the film. There's not. And the
vast majority of sexual contact in the film is
between Lee and her fiancé that she is not happy
with. And actually that scene where she has sex
with her fiancé is probably the most coercive
thing that happens in the film. Yeah. You know,
because of the way that he approaches it. Yeah,
and that she's visibly not into it. Visibly not
into it, kind of giving in to his desire to have
sex. Yeah. In a film about kink, and given some
of the attitudes that there are to it, actually
the most coercive thing in the film is. is vanilla
sex yeah and that whole relationship and I don't
think it's definitely not framed as anything
sort of malicious from his side no no but that
whole relationship is very much he thinks that
they should have a relationship and then he thinks
they should have sex and then he thinks they
should get married yeah and she just goes along
with it because she doesn't know how to how to
not yeah and that could be down to her being
submissive it could be down to her social awkwardness
it could be down to sort of pressures from family
it could be a lot of things but it's societal
scripts yes because it was very much it feels
really relatable to me not the specific relationship
because her specific relationship with peter
her fiance is much more of a terrible mess than
anything i've been in i think but that relationship
on rails where you just take the next step because
that's what you're supposed to do really was
just a good summing up of every vanilla relationship
i ever had where there was no malice on the other
person's part usually there was no conscious
decision from me to force myself into a box and
conform there was just and then you do this and
then you do this and then it's been 10 years
and you're still not happy and having a film
that really showed how how shit that feels and
how monotonous it feels and how coercive it can
feel and sets that up in contrast to here's a
kink relationship that breaks All of the rules.
It breaks all the rules of what Vanilla Society
tells you you should have. It also breaks a lot
of rules that we should have, like don't sexually
harass your secretary. Yeah. But it's transgressive
and therefore it's more real. Yeah. And I think
that's something that we don't see represented
a lot. No, I agree. Something else that we don't
often see in this type of film, or which is kind
of easily overlooked in this type of film, is
a submissive woman with agency. Yes. I think
this is something that you... were if i wanted
to put words in your mouth i think this is probably
a strong contender for one of the top reasons
why you like this film so lee is without a doubt
a very shy and inexperienced inexperienced um
submissive someone inexperienced in the kink
world and the trope would go that the big manly
arrogant dominant would come along and teach
her the ways yes and be leading and directing
and that kind of doesn't happen i mean it happens
a little bit in this movie But that's not the
whole story. Definitely. Because I feel like
it very much starts out like that. She is, as
you say, shy, inexperienced. She doesn't really
know a lot about relationships. She's never had
a job before. Very naive. And then he just starts
doing BDSM to her. So it could very easily have
stayed on that track where he's now going to
teach her everything. He's going to just tell
her what's what and she's just going to go along
with it. maybe she'll like it maybe she won't
but he's going to be in the lead and actually
very quickly it flips where she is the one pursuing
him yeah because at the point where he starts
to pull back he's obviously in this pattern of
doing all of this stuff to his secretaries and
he feels like shit about it as he should because
that's not the way to go about this stuff yeah
um but he obviously feels a lot of shame around
his desires in general and doesn't see any other
healthier more consensual outlook for them so
he tries to stop and he tries to resist those
urges that he has and that's where we see the
sub in frenzy she is acting out she is not just
making typos in her documents anymore she's putting
worms into his letters she is bending over his
desk and wriggling her butt to try to get attention
yeah she is doing all of this ah the butt wiggle
of mischief the butt wiggle of mischief is a
good technique And at the end, it's her that
confronts him about his shame, about the way
that he's withdrawn from her, about what she
wants and what she knows he wants. It's her that
forces him to be vulnerable and says that she
can see the way that he suffers too. It's her
that toughs out that unknown period of time where
she's feet planted, hands planted in his office,
refusing to leave until he accepts her as a submissive.
Yeah. Like this is not a submissive who's just
been told you have to be a sub now because you're
the girl in this movie and I'm going to teach
you how to be a sub. Yeah. This is someone who
has had something wake up in her and it is hungry.
Yeah. And I fucking love that because that is
more relatable to me by a long way. Yeah. Yeah.
She's really driving things by the end of it.
Yeah. She's completely driving things. Yeah.
By the end of the movie. You don't see enough.
I don't think. No. Which I think as we talk about
a little bit at the start, I think that. that
balances out some of the consent issues in the
movie for me it would it's like obviously this
is not a scenario that should play out like this
in real life shouldn't be fucking around with
co -workers shouldn't be jumping into this stuff
without a proper conversation about it but as
a piece of fiction where these characters are
expressing elements of ourselves that we can
recognize I think it's beautiful because it shows
the intimacy and it shows the agency in submission
and it shows how it can be collaborative and
how there is that push and pull where both of
you are leading each other in different ways.
Yeah. It captures a lot of what kink feels like,
even if it doesn't capture how kink should be
done. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think that's
a really good, I think that's a really good way
of putting it. And it's something that we've
talked about before of putting a detailed negotiation
where consent is really, really clear. in a movie
can go one of two ways i suppose either it can
be kind of fun which in a weird way it was in
50 shades or it could just be quite dull yeah
because for them i'm struggling today as well
for the most part the negotiation part of for
it whether it's for a scene or for a dynamic
or whatever it's exciting but it's exciting to
the people who are doing it yeah It's probably
not that exciting to watch. I also feel like
an extended negotiation scene in Secretary wouldn't
have been believable for either character until
the end of the movie, where they resolve all
of their difficulties and go off to start a relationship
together. At that point, I imagine they had some
really clear negotiation and they probably learned
how to do that. But the point of this movie is
it's about two people who don't have a fucking
clue what they're doing. They're hardwired to
be a dominant and a submissive, but they don't
know how. They are muddling through and they
are making mistakes and they are crossing each
other's boundaries and they are fucking it up,
but they find each other. Yeah. And I think sometimes
you have to let characters in movies be messy
because they're not here to teach us how to do
kink. They're here to entertain us for an hour
and a half. No, that is true. And if you had
characters in movies who weren't messing, it
would be quite a boring film. I don't know. I'm
one of these people who would quite happily watch
a movie where everything goes right, but I know
I'm in a minority. I can't think of a single
film where that has happened. No, people like
conflict, so it doesn't happen. Yeah. But there
was an episode of Star Trek, I think it was a
Deep Space Nine episode, where they just played
baseball. And it was great. It was really chill.
I don't remember that one. I'm going to Google
to check that I'm right. Yeah, so in Star Trek
Deep Space Nine, there is an episode called Take
Me Out to the Hollow Suite. And all that happens
in it is they play baseball. Nice. Yep. And there
should be more stuff like that. Everyone just
has a nice low -stakes time where nothing bad
happens. Yeah. Yeah. I think Star Trek is good
at that kind of thing, though. There's proper
diversion now. I think there are a few episodes
like that in all of the series. Deep Space Nine
did it with Trials and Tribulations, which was
the throwback to Trouble with Tribbles from the
original series. Yes. Which in itself was a silly
episode. Yeah. You know? But those silly episodes
had peril. Yeah, but it was peril with a small
p. Yeah. Wasn't it? But I like when there is
no peril. No peril at all. I just want everything
to go really smoothly for a bit. Yeah. Fair.
But that's just how stories go, isn't it? It
is. How films go. Three -act stories. All of
that nonsense. Anyway, should we talk a bit more
about... secretary given that that's what the
people are paying for we probably should yes
mix well they're not paying for it good thing
they're not paying for it yeah it's free though
you get what you're given yeah but then on patreon
they do pay for it and we're even worse true
oh there you go that's the best advert for our
patreon that i've heard so far pay for it and
it's even worse you're like this but worse Anyway,
secondary. Something I really like about this
movie but is definitely controversial when I
see people criticising this movie, this is usually
what they're complaining about, is the way that
it shows a masochist character who struggles
with self -harm. Because I think that is a risky
choice. And there are a lot of versions of this
movie that it could have been that would have
really pissed me off. But I like how they did
it because it felt quite real to me. Right. Because
I think it's such a difficult thing to talk about.
As soon as you start saying, I'm a masochist
and I have self -harmed, immediately people start
going, ah, you should go to therapy instead of
doing weird sex games. And ah, you are into masochism
because it's just outsourcing your self -harm
and all of these kind of misconceptions. And
the instinct that you have as a masochist to
go, no, no, no, they're completely different.
They sit in completely different boxes. They
have nothing in common. And to an extent, that's
true. But I don't think... Much as it's not always
comfortable to think about, I don't think you
can ignore the way that those wires will connect
somewhere in your head. I think there is going
to be an element, if you're someone who's inclined
towards masochism, when your brain is looking
for a coping strategy for depression or trauma,
if you already have an atypical relationship
to pain, could that predispose you towards self
-harm being the direction that goes in? I think
probably the answer for at least some people
is going to be yes. I hadn't really thought about
it in that order. I suppose I think I'd fallen
into the trap of assuming that it only ever goes
in the other direction of self -harm to masochism
rather than masochism to self -harm. I guess
in terms of the chronology of the movie, that
is what happens. She is self -harming and then
she discovers masochism. But if you understand
masochism as something that's an inherent part
of who people are, even before they discover
it, her masochism was always there. Yeah. And
you can see that she has a pleasure response
to her self -harming. Yeah. There's an element
of it being seeking a release of some sort or
seeking a distraction from other things that
are going on in her life. Yeah. But she also
visibly enjoys it. Yeah. Which is a very taboo
thing to show. Yeah. And it's a difficult thing
to talk about because no one wants to start romanticising
or glorifying self -harm. That's definitely not
what we're about. Yeah. And when I think about
my... history of self -harm it's good for my
sanity to put that in a box of that was bad and
we don't do that anymore yeah yeah but it's not
always completely honest to put it in a box of
that was entirely bad and i never had any positive
experience from it because if i didn't get something
from it i wouldn't have done it yeah and that's
a really tricky thing to navigate and i think
i think the movie choosing to go there was brave
um i think choosing to show a masochist that
struggles with self -harm was a really risky
thing to do and being able to do it in a way
that didn't feel judgmental and didn't feel stigmatizing
was impressive because it very easily could have
been yeah it's really interesting to hear you
talk about that because i i think i not having
had experience of self -harm in that in in that
way i think i kind of read that a little bit
differently. I saw the connection between how
she responded when she was hurting herself and
when she was being hurt by Edward. And a positive,
almost kind of sense of relief happening in both
of those scenarios. But I think the thing that
stood out more for me was that developing dynamic
with Edward was kind of diversionary in a way.
I mean, he specifically instructs her not to...
hurt herself again yeah and she doesn't and i
don't think that is a simple act of obedience
i think there is something about for her that
relationship with edward as weird as it is is
probably the most stable thing in her life yeah
like she's got quite a chaotic life at home like
her dad is an alcoholic he is hurting her mother
um she doesn't feel happy or or settled in her
other relationship with with with her boyfriend
and actually what you've got in this dynamic
is something solid something clear and structured
like as as difficult as he makes it for her to
follow the rules there are rules and and kind
of so i kind of almost saw it i guess from a
different perspective and it's probably a little
bit of both yeah like actually what helped her
to get on top of the self -help was partly because
somebody else was hurting her, but partly because
she felt safe. Yeah, and I definitely don't disagree
with that. I think it shows both sides of that.
I think it shows how masochism and self -harm
can often exist in the same person, and they
fit in different boxes and they have a different
context, and that masochism and self -harm are
not the same thing, but how someone who has an
unusual relationship with pain might be drawn
to pain. in some ways that aren't healthy and
i think it also does a good job of showing a
submissive who has an issue with self -harm and
how clear structure and stability and guidance
can be one of the things that becomes a protective
factor for that and all manner of other self
-destructive behaviors which i really liked as
well yeah um because you're right i think it's
not just a simple act of obedience i think she's
very drawn to obedience but i think when he tells
her to stop self -harming It's similar to the
part where she walks home on her own for the
first time. Yeah. And she talks about how she
felt confident enough to do it because he had
given her permission. Yeah. I think maybe when
he told her to stop self -harming might have
been the first time she'd ever believed she was
capable of that. Yeah. And having someone that
she really trusts as an authority figure tell
her that she can and she will is what took for
her to be able to do that. Yeah. Because I've
seen some people being quite uncomfortable with
the idea of a dominant making that a rule. or
giving that as an instruction um because it starts
to get into that tricky area of people using
kink as therapy and how high risk and unethical
that can be yeah if your partner is If your partner
is in a position where they are the thing that
is keeping your life together and they are treating
your problems, then it can be a huge amount of
pressure on everyone involved and it's not sustainable
and can create really unhealthy dependence. But
it is unavoidably true that many, many submissives
have a much better quality of life when we have
a lot of clear rules and guidance and structure
that force us to do things that we wouldn't do
for ourselves. And I think it shows that really
well. yeah yeah and i think that's a really good
point to make because not only is kink not therapy
and therapy is not kink but in this specific
context the man is a lawyer not a therapist yeah
um i got to admit i think i would really struggle
with implementing that rule yeah i think i would
feel very out of my depth that's fair telling
you or telling anyone to not self -harm simply
because although logically I can understand why
that might be happening and you could tell me
why that is I feel like that would be something
that is so deeply ingrained in in your life history
and the reasons behind that are not going to
be fixed just by me telling you not to do it
the interesting thing is we obviously we don't
have that rule and I haven't self -harmed for
a long time but my personal reading of our contract
would be that I am not allowed to do that anyway
Because there's stuff in there about my responsibility
to take care of your property. So although we
don't have a rule that says you will not self
-harm, I would feel like I was doing something
completely wrong and in conflict with all of
the core values of our dynamic. If I was to do
that, hurting me is not my job. Yeah, I think
that's a fair point. I think the point to make
there is that although you have self -harmed
in the past, that is something that you haven't
done for a long time and isn't. a present risk
yeah i think if it was we might have ended up
in the same place with the contract and we might
even have ended up with a rule about it but we
would have talked about it and we would have
talked about it a lot yes yes we would you know
i'm not i'm not sure and i i would be fully comfortable
with setting up a rule that said you will not
self -harm i think i would probably be more comfortable
with a set of rules which says if you feel like
you need to you need to communicate that and
if you're going to do it you're going to do it
in a safe way so harm reduction rather than stopping
yeah i think and that seems fair as well i think
when you start getting into any kind of rules
to be fair you have to think a lot about unintended
consequences and you know if you modify a behavior
in this area what knock -on effect is it going
to have on a behavior in that area particularly
when you start getting into people's coping strategies
even unhealthy ones yeah you don't know where
that pressure is going to burst out if you tell
someone you are forbidden from self -harming
you don't know what is going to pop up as the
next on their list of coping strategies so i
think it's it's definitely something better addressed
through more conventional means like therapy
yeah But also I know that a lot of the worst
impulses I have are very effectively managed
by a power exchange relationship. And the fact
that I always see like the most important responsibility
I have is to be of service and be useful and
be behaving in the way that you would want me
to behave. Taking good care of your property
comes within that. So I feel like even if we
never discussed it, if I suddenly had a self
-harm urge now, my first thought would be, I
can't do that. yeah that's not allowed even without
that being a rule yeah but i think maybe that's
yeah having it be implied by the general overview
of the rules is probably a little healthier than
having you step in and take that on as your responsibility
because that's a lot yeah yeah i think so i think
so because you're right to be fair to edward
gray that rule is very much you know we talked
about those categories of rules that we have
that's very much in there These are the rules
that protect the health and well -being of the
submissive. Yeah. Totally understand where that
came from. I think it was a bold move to do that
because stopping you from doing the thing doesn't
solve the problem that led to you doing the thing.
Yeah. That's where I would be. That's where my
worry would come from. The cause of that need
doesn't go away. Yeah. Just because I say you
can't do it. Yeah. so where does that go and
it feels like the movie kind of implies that
having the structure of a dynamic and having
the pain being spanked and things like that is
solving the problem and i think that's where
it's maybe a little bit weaker because for some
people it might but for some people for most
people i think that is not going to be enough
to completely resolve things yeah yeah yeah but
overall i still i like that it's and i think
it was handled pretty pretty damn well considering
Yeah. And again, the first time I saw it, it
felt like the first time when we watched it together.
You kind of see this vulnerable young woman coming
out of a mental institution and then going home
to a chaotic situation and harming herself. And
you're like, oof. Are they really? Is that really
where they're starting with this film? So it
does give you that visceral response when you
see it for the first time. So I can understand
why people kind of have a negative reaction to
it. But in the context of the rest of the movie,
yeah, it tracks and it makes sense. One of the
things I really like about this movie, and I
think one of the first things that really stood
out to me the first time I saw it, was how properly
kinky it is. Sometimes kink in movies, it's very
much that polished sort of kink that vanilla
people will still think is sexy. The kind of
thing that... people who aren't into kink will
try a little bit of to spice things up. Yeah.
And I think, for me at least, Secretary feels
like it is willing to show stuff that people
will look at and go, like, why? Yeah, like, how
is that kinky? Yeah. Sort of thing. What did
you think of that mix? Yeah, I think I loved
that. I really enjoyed that about it. And I know
when we do these movie review episodes, we try
not to compare and contrast too much, but there
is night and day. between how films like 50 shades
deal with with kink and how this movie deals
with kink like you kind of mr gray with his dungeon
and all his very expensive floggers and and canes
and stuff like that i there's very little what
you would call obvious kink equipment yeah in
the movie yeah the only thing i can really think
of is the opening scene where we see her walking
through the office with her hands attached to
her cuff to a bar yes of course there is yeah
there's the spreader bars that she uses yeah
yeah yeah but other than that it is all very
much perversion of everyday objects and human
interactions which i really like yeah yeah like
the idea of using a red pen a red sharpie yeah
as a as an item of kink equipment I think it's
just lovely because she has to type everything
using a typewriter. And he is a very strict grammarian
and doesn't like, you know, really kind of has
quite a strong reaction to typos and spelling
mistakes and stuff like that. And he red pens
all of her mistakes. Yeah. And it's stuff. Yeah.
I really enjoy seeing things like that because
it's not an unreasonable thing for a lawyer who
employs a secretary to do is to correct letters
and send it back and go do that again because
you made mistakes. Yeah. It's the way that he
does it. which is just wonderful to see. It's
very ritualised and you see the red pens pop
up through the movie. When he first hires her,
he sweeps a bunch of red pens into the bin, which
is very much him swearing off doing any of that
perverted stuff this time around. And then you
see him start using the red pens to correct her
mistakes. There's a scene where she has put a
worm into an envelope instead of a letter to
try to get his attention. And he gets it out,
lays it out carefully on a piece of paper and
then circles it over and over and over again.
in red pen yeah before finally caving and summoning
her in there's a another point where he throws
away all his red pens and then opens a drawer
and there's a single red pen in a sort of gold
bowl sitting in a drawer like ready for him to
start this shit again like the the obsession
with the red pens yeah is so delightfully perverse
yeah and it feels so much more real to me than
here's six expensive riding crops because it's
And I don't mean this in a gatekeepy way. But
it's proper power exchange. Yeah. For me, it
is proper use of authority. You know? And in
the context of that employment relationship,
fairly obvious, I suppose. But it's a smart use
of power on authority transfer. Yeah. Which is,
yeah, I just love stuff like that. And the way
that he exerts that power and exerts that control,
like the scene where she's on the phone to him
and he's giving her really fucking weird instructions
about how much food and really specific instructions
about how much food she can eat. Yeah. It's like
saying you can have this much of your steak and
you can have a tablespoon or whatever it is of
potato and four peas. Yeah. And then she just
does it. With absolutely no shame, no hint of
embarrassment or anything. She's sitting with
her family with her tiny little cube of steak,
a little spoonful of potatoes and four peas on
her plate. Yeah. It's just that's fucked up.
You know, it's really messed up, but it's brilliant.
Yeah. You know, really enjoyed sort of seeing
that play out where it would be so easy for it
just to go down a more stereotypical. discipline
route where you do something wrong and then you
get caned for it and that happens she gets spanked
on a number of occasions for doing things wrong
yeah but that's only a tiny part of it yeah which
feels a lot more like how kink is for us because
we do the sexy stuff we do the spanking and we
do the handcuffs and we do all of that but also
we end up getting turned on by the stupidest
things Yeah. Like when we first started Findom
and you were just demanding money for Greg's
pasties and coffees. No one would look at that
and go, that's sexual. But for us, it's really
hot. And letting kink be just really weird. It's
just, I love it. Yeah. And then out of nowhere,
they do a pony play scene. Yeah. It's like right
in the middle of the movie, isn't it? Where they're
in their groove before it starts to go wrong.
It's that little montage of what office life
is like. And right in the middle of it. There's
like 30 seconds where she's kneeling on his desk
and he puts a saddle on her back and a carrot
in her mouth. Yeah. And anyone who's not, well,
even people who are kinky, I suppose, but definitely
people who aren't kinky watching that will just
go, what the fuck? But it's the exact kind of
thing that happens in a kinky relationship is
you just go, should we try a bit of that? Like,
why not? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then we've
already talked about the end scene, but talk
about, regardless of how long she is actually
sitting in that position, whether it is a number
of hours or a number of days, the devotion that
is required to do that. Yeah. And it draws a
lot on, I think, more traditional forms of BDSM,
so kind of slave positions and stuff like that,
where you say it out loud, feet flat on the floor
and hands on the desk. Doesn't sound like it
would be all that uncomfortable. But like, try
it, not move. Yeah, I can't sit at the same position
at my desk for more than about 30 seconds. That's
what I mean, though. It's like, it doesn't sound
like it's physically strenuous. But try doing
it. Yeah. And not moving. I would find that really,
really hard. Yeah. And I say you would as well.
I would lose my mind, yeah. Interesting. Oh,
no. Interesting. I would do it, though. If you
told me to, I would do it. I would just strongly
prefer not to. But I'm not sure which kind of
branch of BDSM that comes from, but it's a nod
to that really ritualised aspect of BDSM and
kind of holding slave positions as an act of
service or as an act of devotion or as an act
of worship or whatever. Yeah. It is, which is
just, yeah, again, just really nice to see a
range of ways that kink can be done. that power
and authority and control can be exercised and
discipline yeah as well can be exercised yeah
something i really like with that scene is that
she pisses herself as well yes and i don't mean
i like it because i'm a huge pervert i mean it's
just because you're a huge pervert yeah um but
like again it's allowing it's allowing the film
to show something very deviant And it's also
showing that depth of submission as well, to
be prepared to really humiliate yourself like
that, to piss yourself and continue to hold position
and then sit there in your piss -soaked wedding
dress and continue to hold position. Yeah. And
the fact that when he then comes and gets her,
he quite happily picks her up and he goes and
washes her in the bath. Yeah. I love that scene
so much because it's proper. We finally get aftercare.
because that's definitely a weak spot through
the movie is that we're not seeing that and that's
because they are both figuring this out and they're
both or at least particularly he is trying to
resist being fully engaged in this so there's
a lot of kind of we're done play and get out
my office yeah And then at the end, when he finally
embraces that side of himself, he has no discomfort
with the fact that she's been sitting there for
God knows how long and she stinks of piss. He
just wants to take care of her and be intimate
with her. Yeah. And that really captures for
me how King sort of breaks down a lot of that
self -consciousness and disgust and shame and
all of these things that we feel about ourselves
and feel about other people and put up these
walls between us. The thing that makes King so
intimate is that permission to be messy and disgusting
and raw in front of each other. Yeah. I really
like that it showed that. Yeah, I agree. And
for me, I think what I got from that was more
about probably the devotional aspect of it. Yeah.
I'm going to stay here no matter what to prove
that I am worthy of them and to prove how much
they mean to me. Yeah. Actually, I'm just going
to... If I piss myself, I piss myself. Yeah.
Because the task is this. Yeah. You know? Which
I guess I would. In my position, I would pick
up on more, I suppose. I was thinking that it's
really interesting that we pick up on different
things from that because of our roles. So for
you, the thing that you love to see is the depth
of devotion and submission. And the thing that
I love to see is the way that she's accepted
while being a mess. Yeah. Because that's maybe
a summary of what we both get from this. Yeah.
I mean, it's good for me to see both sides of
them. But yeah, it was that devotional act. I
think that was the thing for me. That's what
that symbolised for me when she pissed herself.
Yeah. In a wedding dress. In a boss's office.
Yeah. Living the dream. Living the literal dream.
I think there are some aspects of the movie where
the practice of kink is not fully authentic.
So we do not see the proper consent and negotiation
done. You have to properly negotiate your scenes
and your dynamics and you have to have consent
to all of the things that happen. If you're not
doing those things, it's abuse. But you don't
see that. So there's an element of unreality,
I suppose, which in this context doesn't detract
from the authenticity of everything else that
we saw. No, I agree. And the thing that I did
think was really authentic was... the way that
you see her agency expressed. So though, yes,
we're lacking on the verbal communication, the
negotiation, we see things like when she has
made a mistake and didn't get the reaction she
wanted from it. intentionally doing things to
draw attention so the one i've mentioned with
the worm there's a part where he he um notices
a mistake but doesn't react to it or doesn't
notice a mistake i forget which but then walks
out of the room she's in and she starts loudly
sniffing because he previously told her he doesn't
like it when she sniffs and kind of snuffles
her nose all the time she just sits there like
and what that reminded me of is when i am doing
um every evening we do worship where i i'm kissing
your feet kneeling in front of the mirror kissing
your feet and sometimes you put your foot on
my head or on my back while i'm doing that and
i really like that and if it's been a couple
of days and i haven't had a foot put on me i
will start like raising my butt up in the air
and wiggling it so i get stamped on yeah it was
very very those vibes yeah yeah yes you have
your ways of um seeking attention yeah don't
you yes mix um you make it sound like i don't
give you attention no you do i'm just i'm just
very needy yeah however much attention you give
me i will politely request politely request more
yeah very politely well i've never given you
an envelope with a worm in it no no From the
look I'm getting, I think it might not be advisable
for me to try that. My first response wouldn't
be to circle it in red pen. No, Mix? No, put
it on your desk. No, that would not be my first
response. What would it be, Mix? Well, if I'm
being honest, I think my first response would
be, what the fuck is this? What is the deranged
pig doing now? i think would probably be my genuine
response to it yeah something i wanted to like
cautiously talk about is you touched on this
as well i definitely read both characters as
neurodivergent and i think lee particularly reads
as potentially autistic now as you said we can't
be diagnosing anybody neither of us are qualified
to diagnose anybody and also these are fictional
characters yep but i have looked online to see
if i was completely alone in thinking this and
it does seem like a few other people including
autistic people really is autistic there's certain
things she does like scripting her conversations
before she goes into them um a lot of her mannerisms
and the way that she interacts with other people
and some of the ways that her vulnerability is
expressed are things that some autistic people
have picked up on as being relatable to them
so even if the character wasn't intended to be
autistic yeah it's certain that there are traits
that people are going to see themselves in, in
that way. And I thought that was interesting
because we know that there is a very high amount
of neurodivergent people in the kink community.
Yes. You go to a munch and you've got everyone
sitting around. There's usually someone with
a box of fidget toys. No one's making eye contact.
Someone is info dumping in the corner. It's fantastic.
Yeah, yeah. It is a whole vibe. Yeah. And I feel
like a lot of the time when kink is presented
in mainstream media, it's tried because they're
trying to make it glossy and sexy and appealing
to everybody yeah they don't want their characters
to come across as awkward or having any kind
of social difficulties or anything like that
so they don't really represent that where these
felt like people you would run into at your local
munch i could 100 see myself sitting down at
a table at a munch and edward and leah there
Yeah, I think you're right. Like I said at the
start, I don't know what the writer's intention
was for those characters, but you look at both
of them and you can kind of see that neurodivergence
in them. He is very particular in a lot of things
and very focused on a lot of things and has kind
of his own rituals and stuff, which could read
as autistic, I suppose. It is just really nice.
to see people represented in that way that are
real, I think. Because you're right, it's like
the stereotypical dom -de -dom kind of persona,
very together, very confident, very charming
and clear and all of that kind of stuff. And
even the submissives who are almost exclusively
women in these films. The worst thing about them,
the worst in very big kind of air quotes, I suppose,
is that they might be a little bit dowdy. Yeah.
You know, that mid -movie transformation from
bookish woman with straight hair and glasses
and might wear cardigans and stuff like that
into this submissive sex siren kind of thing.
That's as deep as it gets. a lot of the time
yeah not that there is anything wrong with bookish
women with straight hair who wear glasses and
wear cardigans like that that's that's a sounds
really good to me but yeah female submissives
in these kind of stories tend to be allowed to
be a little bit shy yeah and maybe not very good
at chatting to men yeah but other than that pretty
typical yeah and then the male dominance are
supposed to really have their shit together And
be super confident at all times. Yeah. And then
in secretary, having them both be just pretty
regular people, little bit quirky. Yeah. Probably
neurodivergent. Yeah. Definitely awkward. Yeah.
Neither of them really knowing how to interact
with each other or really anyone else. Yeah.
And really finding a lot of this stuff really
difficult. Again, just really grounded it in
the kind of people that you meet in the kink
community. Yeah. Instead of feeling like, OK,
but these people are nothing like us. It was
like these people are exactly like us. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And that goes back to where we started,
the relatability of the characters. It was nice
to see someone that I recognised for myself.
Yeah. Because I can't stand the kind of people
that are usually represented in kink movies,
if I'm being honest. I think particularly dominance.
Dominance tend to be done really badly. Yeah.
Yeah, if Christian Grey turned up at a bunch,
I would avoid him. Yeah. Because I would just
think, arsehole. Edward Grey we could hang out
with. Edward Grey, I'd love to chat to Edward
Grey. I think he'd be fascinating. Yeah. What
was it that Mark referred to at the Council of
Debauchery or something? Oh, it was something
like that, yeah. Yeah, he would definitely fit
into that. You know, you get the reports from
the... department of power exchange department
of degradation and stuff like that he would edward
would fit in at the council of debauchery i feel
yes and i think i mean this is going well outside
of the topic of let's talk about secretary as
a movie but it's nice to see something that draws
attention to how that intersection exists because
i think a lot of people outside the kink community
probably have just absolutely no knowledge of
that it's all of their knowledge is coming from
the media but then when people do hear about
autistic people and people with adhd and other
other neurodivergent people participating in
kink there's often that instant reaction of ah
vulnerable people being taken advantage of being
sucked into something and it actually a lot of
the time it's more that people who experience
the world in an atypical way also experienced
love and intimacy and romance and sensory connection
and pain in ways that are not quite aligned with
neurotypical people as well. And so it makes
sense that they're going to be seeking something
from their relationships that you don't find
on the standard menu. And the movie didn't make
any commentary on that. It didn't even outright
say anything about whether the characters were
neurodivergent or not. But I think having something
like that visible that at least gives a hint
at it, a little glimpse at it, could maybe pave
the way for better representation and better
understanding of that in the future. Yes. Yeah.
I mean, given that the movie is 24 years old,
it didn't. Yet, but it's still influential. I
don't think we would have Fifty Shades. I mean,
we probably wouldn't want to have Fifty Shades,
but I don't think Fifty Shades would exist without
a secretary. Definitely Baby Girl wouldn't exist
without a secretary. No. I think it has really
started to influence things and has continued
to influence things. And the ripple effect of
that will go on. So there's still time. That's
very optimistic of you. Yes, thanks. So we've
talked a lot about the themes that we really
liked in the film. But there was a few things
that I think were fairly small moments in the
film that we really, really enjoyed. Yes. Why
don't you start off with one? yeah i mean first
my absolute favorite bit of this movie and possibly
any movie ever and i know i referenced this earlier
on as well is the part where she confronts him
and says that she wants that relationship with
him and he says we can't do this 24 hours a day
seven days a week and she says why not just love
that because there is this feeling that people
have both kinky people and non -kinky people
who look at this stuff and go yeah but that's
completely unrealistic no one can live that way
yeah and definitely in my early stages of figuring
out my kink identity i knew i wanted a power
exchange relationship but i had those thoughts
in my head of but obviously you can't go too
far and obviously you can't give people control
over this and obviously you can't live like that
all the time yeah and then having that realization
but but why not if that's what's authentic to
me why not yeah and finding that there are people
who can do that with you who are capable of that
and want that just as much as you do, is just
so fucking cool. And seeing that represented
is just amazing to me. I just think it's a really
powerful moment and something that really sums
up an important turning point in my life when
I figured out that I could have this. Yeah. Aww.
I think so. I think that kind of talks to a really
big misconception about... about what 24 -7 dynamics
are in reality and i guess it kind of it comes
from a misconception about what kink is because
i read something the other day on on fetlife
about someone who on this very topic addressing
that criticism that that question of whether
or not you can actually have a 24 -7 approach
to kink and and what she was saying is yes but
that doesn't mean that we are both wandering
around the house wearing head -to -toe rubber
and whipping my partner's balls all the time
there are levels to this yeah there is subtlety
to this and and it changes throughout a day it
changes over time it changes depending on where
we are and what we're doing and who we're with
and all of that stuff but it's always there's
always something present there that kind of brings
you back into that seven space yeah like it doesn't
stop at hour 23 you know what day seven yeah
but it might look different day to day yeah and
that's how it is for us and i think that's something
that people sometimes the the questions i get
on tiktok and stuff people try to get their heads
around is if we're 24 7 they'll ask so do you
ever watch a movie together and do you make jokes
and do you go for days out and stuff and it's
like yeah we do all of that stuff yeah the 24
7 dynamic isn't a barrier to that it's just the
framework it happens within yeah yeah so there'll
still be little bits of protocol there you know
we're watching a movie together i get up off
the couch to get a drink and when i come back
and wait to be invited onto the couch you make
me kneel on the floor for a couple of minutes
yeah things like that but none of that detracts
from the fact that we're cuddling up and watching
a movie together yeah you'll let me on the couch
eventually and the cuddles will continue yeah
it's yeah it's the 24 7 dynamic integrates into
an ordinary life and you can have both yeah weird
little aside I don't find it difficult. I don't
find it challenging in that way. But that rule
we have about you having to be invited on the
sofa, part of the reason I tell you to sit so
much is because if you're on the floor, then
we're not on the sofa together. Aw. You know?
Do you remember when we first started out with
punishments? One of the punishments was that
you would have furniture privileges removed.
Yeah. and you broke a rule and the punishment
that i decided on was that you would you wouldn't
you would lose your furniture privileges which
meant you had to sleep on the floor and i think
i suffered more than you did yeah for that because
you kind of thought that was quite hot yeah it
was humanizing and stuff like that and i'm just
there in bed on like what the fuck do i do now
Yeah, and I missed cuddling up with you as well.
But yeah, it did tap into that sort of, yeah,
this is my place. Yeah. So it felt more like
play than punishment to me. But it felt like
a punishment to you. So we scrapped that one.
Yeah, it did not last long at all. But it's stuff
like that. It's in the asking, isn't it? It's
not in the outcome. It's in the asking where
the dynamic exists. It's like you sit on the
sofa because I allow it. Yeah. And even if I
allow it all the time or most of the time. I
allow it. Yeah. And that's the point. I think
one of the things that I really enjoyed as a
dominant and a bit of a sadist was the power
plays in it and the testing, especially in the
early parts of the film, where he would use some
subtle and not so subtle ways of... Exerting
power and control and testing where she would
go with it. I just found it really fascinating.
So I think we talked about it earlier on. The
inconsistency about how much sugar he liked in
his coffee. Yes. Or the fact that she couldn't
get it right. There was either too much or not
enough in there. There was the really funny scene
where he says that he loses his notes. And they're
probably in the garbage. And most people would
have said... Oh, they're gone then, aren't they?
But she climbs into the garbage. Yeah. Big, massive
garbage bin. And she finds the notes. You know,
it's little things like that that I really enjoyed.
And it goes back to that authentic deviance.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think testing is a really
good way of describing it because it was very
much like... You talk about sometimes having
a mad science approach to kink where you just
do stuff to see if you can do it. And it felt
like a psychological version of that at times
where he was figuring out at what point she would
push back if she ever would. And obviously she
didn't. And seeing him thrive off that submission
that she was leaning further and further into
the way that she would just debase herself for
him. Yeah. And the way that they both sort of
fed off each other's energy in that. Yeah. Was
really... Yeah. Again, I keep saying it, but
it feels really real. It feels like a lot of
how I like Kink to feel. Yeah. I really liked...
A lot of mine seemed to come from the end of
the movie. I like the whole thing, but there's
just some of the dialogue towards the end of
the movie is just such good ways of summing up
how Kink is. So there's a part where she's sitting
at the desk at the end and... Her fiance comes
to try to talk her out of it and says, why won't
you move your hands? And her response is because
I don't want to, which I love because they could
have easily written that line as I've been told
not to or I'm not allowed to. But the actual
answer is because she doesn't want to. She's
choosing to submit. She's choosing to follow
the orders that she's been given. She's choosing
the life that she is there proving her loyalty
to. And that reminder that submission is a choice.
I don't like the sort of oversimplification that
people say of, oh, the submissive is the one
with the real power. Because in a healthy dynamic,
both people have the real power to create it
together and negotiate it together and to stop
it together. But... The other misconception is
that submissives have no power and are just passive,
weak -willed people who are being dragged along
by someone who's taking advantage of them. And
actually saying, no, she is submitting because
she chooses to. And she is doing this weird thing
that no one understands because she chooses to
and she wants to. I really like that. It just
kind of captured the whole movie. Yeah, that
was really nice. A really nice moment in the
movie. And there was a lot in that sort of montage
at the end. It really showed the whole range
of reactions you get. to being in this kind of
relationship if you're open about it or if you
sort of become exposed and people find out about
it where there were people who were sort of supportive
and understanding and then there was the usual
criticisms like more or less why can't you just
be normal I think the actual line was there are
other ways to show your devotion more conventional
ways there was the woman who came in with a big
stack of feminist literature and was like you
need to read this and understand and that sort
of Those interesting things where you've got
on one side the sort of conservative view of
why can't you just be normal and conventional
and fit in with everyone else. And on the other
side, be like, you need to be more progressive
and you need to be more proud of being a strong,
independent woman. And if you're not living up
to these ideals, you're failing. So you're failing
on two counts opposite ends of the spectrum of
each other. Maybe that means you're not failing
at all. Yeah, it was clever because it was subtle
and it was quick. You know, you blink and you
miss it. That's there's a lot going on in that
scene. But just having all of the noise of the
world around you telling you, don't let someone
else tell you what to do, let us tell you what
to do. And just sitting there throughout it with
your feet on the floor and your hands on the
desk is sometimes how my life feels. Yeah, I
think that's fair. I think that's fair. Yours
are much deeper than mine. Mine were just fun
bits that I saw. I have seen it a lot of times
though, Max. Yeah, true, true. I think there
was one bit that I guess I related to less directly,
but I understand it, was that period after Edward
pulled away completely and then she set about
kind of educating herself and trying to find
other people. And I really liked that it goes
back to agency and it goes back to the desire
and the need of the submissive as being an active
participant in this. Because she was educating
herself. She was reading about it and she was
learning about it. But she was also trying to
find people. Yeah. And it was just that kind
of slightly heartbreaking. comparison between
the two where she's really keen and really excited
and trying to learn as much as she can and then
just being a bit disappointed by the people that
she meets who aren't edward yeah i think they
show three people don't they video makes yeah
none of them are the finest examples of kinky
people no you know i think one of them she says
pinched her nipples before they even got in the
car yeah so in a movie that doesn't show explicit
consent and negotiation even less so um there
was the guy who she was throwing tomatoes at
yes he wanted her to throw tomatoes at him while
he was chained to a lit grill yeah which in itself
valid valid like if that's how he gets off then
then amazing but it wasn't satisfying for her
no um and then there was who was the third guy
he wanted her to piss on his porch mix and then
when she said she didn't want to do that he said
i thought you were a masochist that's it yeah
that was it So just like instantly relatable,
bad example, bad experiences, I suppose, of when
you've had something that is really, really positive
and then going out to find similar things and
being a bit disappointed. Yeah, that was my fear
after my last breakup. Like literally, I thought
I was going to end up meeting tomato guy. And
that's not what happened. I played with a couple
of very nice people and then I met you. But there
is that fear when you found really high compatibility
with someone. That sounds awful. I played with
a couple of really nice people and then I met
you. No, I meant, and then even better, I met
you. A couple of nice people who I played with
and had a good time with, but didn't look for
a relationship with. And then I met the love
of my life. If you want to choose to take it
as something negative, that's on you. Two nice
people and you. I jest, of course. I am merely
teasing. Have you got any more? I have a whole...
Big ass paragraph mix. But I'm scared if I try
to read this quote out loud, I might make myself
cry because it is my favourite. So I don't have
a lot to say about this. I just love this whole
chunk from the end of the movie as well. She
says, in one way or another, I've always suffered.
I'm going to cry for fuck's sake. Do you want
me to read it? I will try once more and then
if not, then yes, you mix. She says, in one way
or another, I've always suffered. Fuck's sake.
Okay, so Mix is going to read this because I
can't get through it without crying. Good grief.
I have to be stoic now. Okay. In one way or another,
I've always suffered. I didn't know why exactly,
but I do know that I'm not so scared of suffering
now. I feel more than I've ever felt, and I've
found someone to feel with, to play with. to
love in a way that feels right for me i hope
he knows that i can see that he suffers too and
i want to love him oh that is the most me thing
in the whole movie and it makes me very soft
yes yeah this really sums up how my submission
feels really specifically that idea of kind of
finding meaning in pain but also feeling things
intensely in a trusted space as you can tell
from the fact that I cannot read out a movie
quote without crying I feel my feelings really
hard my emotions are really close to the surface
like I cry at a lot of the music I like I cry
at a lot of movies I've cried at every season
so far of Bridgerton that we've been watching
yes I am soft um and a lot of the time I think
that can feel like a vulnerability and like a
weakness and in submission that feels like a
space to really feel all that stuff as intensely
as i feel it and that is celebrated and wanted
yeah because it's necessary i think to do this
stuff you have to let your emotions out especially
on the submissive side because there's so much
intense feeling in it and how you respond to
that is the communication a lot of the time yeah
um the thing that really drew me into kink was
having that permission to feel things intensely
and be messy and cry and scream and do all of
that stuff and not have it be seen as embarrassing
or weak or uncomfortable or the thing that people
would look away from but actually a thing that
attracted people to me um yeah that really feels
very relatable to me as a an explanation of why
we do the things that we do and it also acknowledges
submission as a expression of love and a form
of love as well this isn't just a kinky relationship
that is also a loving relationship it isn't a
dynamic that has a romantic relationship running
along with it it is two people who the only way
that they know how to love is through dominance
and submission yeah figuring that out together
And that has been my journey in kink very much,
where I didn't really know what love felt like
until I started expressing it through submission.
And it's like, oh, that's the thing that's been
missing. So yeah, that quote makes me very emotional
every single time. And I, as it turns out, cannot
read it out loud. But it's very sweet. But luckily
I have you here to do things like that for me
when I'm a mess. Yeah. Cold -hearted bastard
who's completely unfeeling and unaffected by
that. By that quote. Yeah, but you've cried on
the podcast before and I'm sure I'll get you
again sometime. True. I'll just get you to read
out one of my blog posts. Oh God. No. I'm sure
it's the last three in a row have made you cry.
Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. But
I too have cried at Bridgerton. Yes. But for
different things. Yes. We cry at different things,
don't we? Yeah. You cry when the stupid people
kiss. Yes. And I cry when Queen Charlotte worries
about what she's going to do when her husband
dies. Which is something that does upset me quite
a lot. Yeah. Quite existential. But yeah, both
a little bit soft. We are. Around different things.
Yeah. We need to watch something low stakes like
the baseball episode of Star Trek. Send us your
recommendations for low stakes Star Trek episodes.
And we'll see which of us cries at one first.
The problem with some of the low -stakes Star
Trek episodes is that they're a bit rubbish.
They can be. Yeah. Apart from the baseball bat.
Not the baseball bat one. The baseball one. The
baseball one. Yeah. The baseball bat episode
is coming up in two weeks. Nice. Nice bit of
promo. Anyway. Anyway, any last thoughts on Secretary
Mix? I really like this one, if it wasn't obvious.
Yeah, it's a really good film. I would encourage
people to watch it. Have an open mind when you
watch it. It's a well -made movie as well, I
think. Like, well -directed, well -shot, well
-thought -through kind of movie as well. And
finally, we've watched a film that involves kink
and BDSM that we are... generally positive about
yeah like majority positive about yeah long may
that continue my only negative thing i want to
say is that nothing that has come out since 2002
has come anywhere near close no and i keep thinking
i thought baby girl was going to be the new secretary
i thought pillion was going to be the new secretary
yeah and we're not we're not beating it no on
a much broader point i have a friend who said
you know just generally movies have got a bit
less good since the 2000s no i think that is
a an old person gripe i don't think that's true
at all i think movies overall are a lot better
over the last 10 -15 years she is younger than
both of us i've just realized who it would be
as well she is yeah quite some way i think this
year's batch of oscar nominations are pretty
disappointing though that's my hot take oh god
yeah If Sinners wins everything, I'll be happy.
And K -pop Demon Hunters, I wouldn't be too mad
about winning some things. Yeah. But that's it.
There you go. There are our Oscar tips. If Sinners
doesn't win everything, we're going to be mad
about it. Yep. Top and bottom of it. And K -pop
Demon Hunters, best anime. Yes. And best song,
probably. This is the thing that's going to be
difficult for me. both Sinners and K -Pop Demon
Hunters should win Best Original Song, though
in my opinion, neither of them for the song they're
nominated for. Ooh, spicy hot take. It should
be between Pale Pale Moon and... From Sinners.
From Sinners, yes. And What It Sounds Like from
K -Pop Demon Hunters. And it is golden from K
-Pop and... I Lied To You from Sinners. Which
are also both excellent. I Light You is the one
with all of the past and future ancestors, isn't
it? Yes, Mix. So you can see why that's been
nominated, but only if you watch it with that
scene. Yeah, that's the thing. As a song in the
movie, it's the best scene. As a song to listen
to, I think Pale Pale Moon is better. And it's
supposed to be best original song, not best scene
with an original song in it. Yeah, Academy. I
still don't know which one I would want to win
if it was those two nominated. I will go for
Sinners every time. That's fair. K -pop Demon
Hunters was fun and I enjoyed it. But Sinners
was brilliant. Both of those songs are brilliant.
Yeah, but in my brain I made all of K -pop Demon
Hunters about my trauma mix. As I tend to do.
It's all about you. Yeah. That's valid. Yeah.
I can see that. That's fair. Anyway, we are rambling
and this is going to end up just becoming a movies
podcast that has nothing to do with kink if we
don't stop soon. Okay. We're going to wrap up
there. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye. Bye.
See you next time.