WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.960
Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast

00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:04.879
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carisel,

00:00:05.059 --> 00:00:07.679
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who

00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:10.960
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And

00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:13.259
I'm S, Carisel's dominant who knows how to deliver

00:00:13.259 --> 00:00:16.019
all of the above. And today we have had another

00:00:16.019 --> 00:00:18.160
movie night and we are finally going to be talking

00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:20.600
about Secretary, which I think is the most requested

00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.579
movie that people have been asking about. Yeah,

00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:25.519
I think everybody seems to ask that one. There

00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:27.039
was a little period, wasn't there, when everybody

00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:28.699
wanted to know what we thought about Baby Girl.

00:00:29.129 --> 00:00:31.350
oh we never talked about baby girl everyone forgot

00:00:31.350 --> 00:00:33.729
about baby girl quite quickly yeah and so did

00:00:33.729 --> 00:00:57.799
we So yeah, Secretary. Yeah, it's one of those

00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.960
films of this type, I guess, along with Fifty

00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:02.539
Shades of Grey that everybody has seen. Yeah.

00:01:02.659 --> 00:01:05.140
And everybody has an opinion on. Yeah. And it's

00:01:05.140 --> 00:01:07.040
quite old as well, like old enough that people

00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:08.480
are probably like, oh, yeah, that's a classic.

00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:12.939
Oh, God. What is it, 2002? It is. Yeah, mix.

00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:15.579
And you say 2002 and you're like, that's not

00:01:15.579 --> 00:01:17.560
that long ago. And then you. look at the time

00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:19.859
and it's like ah fuck that's 24 years ago yeah

00:01:19.859 --> 00:01:21.859
it is yeah to be fair it is nearly a quarter

00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.739
of a century old i just it's it's it's a difficult

00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:27.180
thing for me to get my head around yeah the things

00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:29.719
that things that were made halfway through my

00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:34.640
life are um are considered classics now i know

00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.280
you know and i feel like the period in which

00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:40.000
something becomes a classic is getting shorter

00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.640
yeah maybe it's just because we're getting older

00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:45.340
so time is moving a lot faster Wow, that's a

00:01:45.340 --> 00:01:47.019
really fucking depressing thought to start the

00:01:47.019 --> 00:01:52.400
podcast off with, isn't it? Jesus Christ. Thanks

00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.700
for that. We're just going to pause for a sec

00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:57.599
while I go and stare at the wall for a few minutes.

00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:59.879
Just break for an existential crisis over here.

00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.879
The wildest thing about Secretary, though, which

00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:05.959
is not in any way related to how good it is as

00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.740
a movie or the plot or any of that good stuff,

00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:12.759
it's that I find James Spader with hair really,

00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:15.469
really weird to look at. Does he not normally

00:02:15.469 --> 00:02:18.349
have hair mix? Not anymore. I'm not sure if I've

00:02:18.349 --> 00:02:21.090
seen him in anything else. No? No. No, he's put

00:02:21.090 --> 00:02:23.110
a little bit of weight on as he's got older and

00:02:23.110 --> 00:02:24.949
he's got less hair. Yeah. And now when I look

00:02:24.949 --> 00:02:29.349
at him, it looks like he's wearing a wig. His

00:02:29.349 --> 00:02:31.090
hair looks perfectly normal to me, I think, because

00:02:31.090 --> 00:02:33.210
I'm not conditioned to expect him to be bald.

00:02:33.469 --> 00:02:37.729
No, it's just so weird. It's really jarring to

00:02:37.729 --> 00:02:42.909
see him as a relatively young man. There you

00:02:42.909 --> 00:02:45.870
go. That's my take on Secretary. That's it. That's

00:02:45.870 --> 00:02:48.050
the only thing I wrote down the entire film.

00:02:48.229 --> 00:02:50.090
What the fuck is James Bader doing with air?

00:02:51.530 --> 00:02:53.789
I mean, seeing as we are a kink podcast, not

00:02:53.789 --> 00:02:55.430
a hairdressing podcast, we should probably talk

00:02:55.430 --> 00:02:58.550
about some of the kink in it. Probably. Yeah.

00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:02.090
And I really like the kink in it. We're obviously

00:03:02.090 --> 00:03:03.810
going to dive into it deeper than that, but just

00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:06.050
as a general overview, I think as far as kinky

00:03:06.050 --> 00:03:08.490
movies go, it's a good one. It's my favourite.

00:03:08.669 --> 00:03:10.550
I really love it. I've seen it a lot of times.

00:03:11.360 --> 00:03:13.500
And I think it's important that we sort of talk

00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:15.900
early on, get it out of the way, the exact same

00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:18.500
criticisms we had of consent in Fifty Shades

00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:20.819
of Grey and in Pillion and that we'll probably

00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:22.659
have in every kinky movie that we ever watch

00:03:22.659 --> 00:03:25.939
on this podcast do also apply to Secretary. And

00:03:25.939 --> 00:03:27.939
it gets a pass from a lot of people, I think,

00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.500
because it's so fucking good. Yeah. I've seen

00:03:30.500 --> 00:03:32.419
a lot of people like comparing Fifty Shades to

00:03:32.419 --> 00:03:34.139
it and was like, oh, Secretary is so much better.

00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:37.379
And it's like, it is. But the things you're criticising

00:03:37.379 --> 00:03:40.639
Fifty Shades for are also a problem here. Yeah,

00:03:40.699 --> 00:03:43.080
but I think some of that forgiveness probably

00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:45.039
comes from the way that the plot pans out. Yeah.

00:03:46.460 --> 00:03:49.960
Which kind of make up for it. So you don't see

00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.860
a specific negotiation scene in Secretary. Although

00:03:53.860 --> 00:03:57.180
you do, weirdly, in Fifty Shades. Yeah. But it's

00:03:57.180 --> 00:04:00.300
obvious that everybody's into it in this film

00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:03.080
and the way that the story pans out. You're like,

00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.020
okay, yeah. Clearly they have talked about something

00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:08.680
at some point and they are both. into it yeah

00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.080
i agree that's my interpretation too is that

00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:13.919
the communication between the characters is lacking

00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:15.919
the sort of good consent practices is lacking

00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:20.379
but the enthusiastic consent and the active participation

00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:24.660
is not a one -sided thing um but if it happened

00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:26.379
in real life i would hope it would go without

00:04:26.379 --> 00:04:29.740
saying that sexual harassment you can't hire

00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:32.360
someone and then psychologically and sexually

00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:36.659
torture them that's that's not allowed no For

00:04:36.659 --> 00:04:45.379
that, you have to go on Tinder. Yes, true. Well,

00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:47.660
do you want to give us a bit of a run through

00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:49.160
of what occurs in the middle? Because we're not

00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:51.579
going to do it scene by scene, are we? No. so

00:04:51.579 --> 00:04:54.740
what's there what happens yes mix um secretary

00:04:54.740 --> 00:04:58.160
is a film about a young woman called lee at the

00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:59.720
start of the film she has just come out of a

00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:01.439
mental institution where she has been because

00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.139
of some difficulties with self -harm and she

00:05:04.139 --> 00:05:07.000
returns to her family home and pretty soon after

00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.300
that does start self -harming again there's a

00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:12.199
lot of tension in her family both with her parents

00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:14.579
being worried about her and a little bit on edge

00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:16.759
around her because of her past but also difficulties

00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:18.920
between them with her father being an alcoholic

00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:21.629
and her parents having a really unhealthy relationship

00:05:21.629 --> 00:05:24.990
um so she's trying to get back on track and get

00:05:24.990 --> 00:05:27.389
her life in order she goes to try to find a job

00:05:27.389 --> 00:05:31.649
and gets job as a secretary and very rapidly

00:05:32.379 --> 00:05:34.720
things start to develop between her and her boss

00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.959
who's a lawyer interestingly called mr gray yeah

00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:40.860
yeah it's just that's just what dominance is

00:05:40.860 --> 00:05:44.540
called now so mr gray is very very particular

00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:47.139
about how he likes things done and can be very

00:05:47.139 --> 00:05:50.000
harsh in how he corrects her behavior and it

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.199
is very clear that he is finding it hard to control

00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:54.879
that side of himself and is getting something

00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:56.660
from it more than just getting things done the

00:05:56.660 --> 00:05:59.480
way that he likes them done yeah and lee starts

00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.129
to realize that she is also getting something

00:06:02.129 --> 00:06:05.170
from that she is getting some kind of fulfillment

00:06:05.170 --> 00:06:08.709
from his harsh treatment and from his controlling

00:06:08.709 --> 00:06:12.689
behavior they sort of fall into uh as far as

00:06:12.689 --> 00:06:14.709
we see on screen at least quite unnegotiated

00:06:14.709 --> 00:06:17.290
ds dynamic with a strong element of punishment

00:06:17.290 --> 00:06:19.709
and discipline as part of it and then he starts

00:06:19.709 --> 00:06:21.910
to pull back from that because of guilt and shame

00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:24.129
around what he's doing and recognizing the way

00:06:24.129 --> 00:06:27.370
he's gone about it is wrong Lee tries to explore

00:06:27.370 --> 00:06:29.790
kink through other people that she meets and

00:06:29.790 --> 00:06:31.670
doesn't find what she's looking for. And all

00:06:31.670 --> 00:06:33.290
the time this has been going on, she's been sort

00:06:33.290 --> 00:06:35.750
of reluctantly dating a guy that she grew up

00:06:35.750 --> 00:06:37.769
with. And she commits to getting married to this

00:06:37.769 --> 00:06:40.470
guy and to try to have a normal, typical vanilla

00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:42.870
life. But ultimately, she is not able to go through

00:06:42.870 --> 00:06:45.189
with that. The draw of this kinky lifestyle she's

00:06:45.189 --> 00:06:48.480
found is too much. She comes back. to mr gray

00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.699
and says that she wants this relationship with

00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:53.779
him and he open to interpretation how this happens

00:06:53.779 --> 00:06:55.699
but my view of it is very much that he's testing

00:06:55.699 --> 00:06:58.060
if she really is prepared for what he is yeah

00:06:58.060 --> 00:07:01.240
um leaves her to sit with her feet on the floor

00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:03.639
and her hands on the desk for a period of several

00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.819
days and then he returns to her after she has

00:07:06.819 --> 00:07:10.019
proven her submission and they have a 24 7 dynamic

00:07:10.019 --> 00:07:13.680
moving forward yeah that's a really good Really

00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.839
good synopsis. I think there's a couple of really

00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.519
interesting things for me about the plot is one

00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.100
right at the start. Like he clearly gets through

00:07:22.100 --> 00:07:25.259
quite a lot of secretaries. Yes. Because it's

00:07:25.259 --> 00:07:26.920
not like a little sign in the window, is it?

00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.319
It's a wooden sign with lights on it that he

00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.079
hangs out whenever he loses a secretary. Yeah.

00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:34.920
So I suspect this is not the first time that

00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:36.920
Mr. Gray has tried this with his secretaries.

00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.779
Yeah. Which is deeply problematic when you say

00:07:39.779 --> 00:07:43.939
it out loud. Yes. And the other bit is, and we

00:07:43.939 --> 00:07:45.459
had a bit of a conversation while we were watching

00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:48.000
it, because I've seen it twice. Yeah. Both times

00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:51.860
with you. And that sequence at the end where

00:07:51.860 --> 00:07:55.699
she is sitting at the desk in his office, it's

00:07:55.699 --> 00:07:59.800
over a period of days. People are coming in to

00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.680
try and convince her to leave her fiancé, who

00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:07.069
she's just left, her dad. There is a news crew.

00:08:07.209 --> 00:08:09.709
All of that stuff is going on about this when

00:08:09.709 --> 00:08:11.810
she's sitting at this desk. And I don't know,

00:08:11.829 --> 00:08:14.410
on the second watch, whether all of that actually

00:08:14.410 --> 00:08:18.089
happens. Yeah, I definitely think some of those

00:08:18.089 --> 00:08:20.850
interactions were in her head. It feels like

00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:23.949
the different parts of herself processing through

00:08:23.949 --> 00:08:27.050
and almost arguing with herself. Yeah. But I

00:08:27.050 --> 00:08:29.490
feel like the whole movie, it feels like it exists

00:08:29.490 --> 00:08:32.600
in a slightly... sort of heightened reality or

00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.399
slightly altered reality like it's got a little

00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.000
bit of a this isn't supposed to quite feel like

00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:39.960
the real world kind of like um the substance

00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.120
very different movie yeah but it feels like you're

00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.399
supposed to know this is a movie set yeah yeah

00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.720
i see that i see i think the first time i watched

00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.480
it i just thought oh yeah this is that kind of

00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:57.299
just completely ridiculous yeah plot twist so

00:08:57.299 --> 00:09:00.350
yeah of course her fiance goes in and her dad

00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:02.470
goes in of course a news crew turns up and starts

00:09:02.470 --> 00:09:05.370
talking about about it on the on the daily news

00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:09.230
because that's just how this movie goes um but

00:09:09.230 --> 00:09:12.250
the second time around i kind of thought what

00:09:12.250 --> 00:09:14.110
like what you said actually no is this in her

00:09:14.110 --> 00:09:17.269
head is she working things out for herself yeah

00:09:17.269 --> 00:09:18.990
kind of in that moment and going no actually

00:09:18.990 --> 00:09:20.889
this really is what i want nobody can convince

00:09:20.889 --> 00:09:23.549
me otherwise not in a combative way but in a

00:09:23.549 --> 00:09:25.429
in like a reflective way those things are popping

00:09:25.429 --> 00:09:27.149
up and she is seeing those things because she

00:09:27.149 --> 00:09:29.820
is processing Yeah. And I think the first time

00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:32.120
we watched it together, we hadn't done our interrogation

00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:33.960
scene yet. And obviously the second time we've

00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:36.440
watched it together, we have. And it was interesting

00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:41.240
seeing prolonged isolation as kink in the context

00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.980
of having experienced it. Yeah. No, I wasn't

00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:45.679
left alone for very long periods at all during

00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:47.159
the interrogation because you were popping in

00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:49.059
and out the room to do awful stuff to me. Yeah.

00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.080
But I was left alone with my thoughts for some

00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.720
periods that felt quite long at times. And your

00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:57.870
head does start. creating scenarios and creating

00:09:57.870 --> 00:10:00.370
dialogue with yourself and doing this stuff to

00:10:00.370 --> 00:10:03.450
to pass the time and to make sense of the intense

00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:06.190
situation you're in so i think having seen this

00:10:06.190 --> 00:10:07.690
movie a bunch of times but i think my current

00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:10.590
interpretation of that scene is that he did leave

00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:12.889
her there she was there and isolated for a period

00:10:12.889 --> 00:10:16.389
of time yeah probably a few hours yeah and that

00:10:16.389 --> 00:10:20.370
was her process and her perception of time during

00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:23.769
that yeah no i would agree with that Because

00:10:23.769 --> 00:10:26.809
it does go into, like I say, it's a bit of flight

00:10:26.809 --> 00:10:28.370
of fantasy right at the end, isn't it? I mean,

00:10:28.389 --> 00:10:31.350
the whole film is a bit flight of fantasy, I

00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:33.309
suppose, because, like you say, it's that very

00:10:33.309 --> 00:10:37.169
weird situation, a very atypical situation. Yeah.

00:10:38.070 --> 00:10:41.669
For two people to find themselves in. Yeah. I

00:10:41.669 --> 00:10:43.409
love it. This is probably obvious from the fact

00:10:43.409 --> 00:10:44.750
I've seen it loads of times and have slightly

00:10:44.750 --> 00:10:46.490
different interpretations of bits of it every

00:10:46.490 --> 00:10:49.210
time I see it. It is one of my favourite movies,

00:10:49.330 --> 00:10:50.909
but how have you found it, Mix? Now you've seen

00:10:50.909 --> 00:10:53.509
it twice. I probably enjoyed it more the second

00:10:53.509 --> 00:10:55.649
time than I did the first time. Yeah. I think

00:10:55.649 --> 00:10:57.750
I probably went into watching it the first time

00:10:57.750 --> 00:11:01.350
quite sceptical because it was like, here we

00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:04.929
go again. Yet another example of Hollywood trying

00:11:04.929 --> 00:11:07.889
to do something with kinky relationships or BDSM

00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:10.289
as a lifestyle and then just not getting it right.

00:11:10.700 --> 00:11:14.700
So I think I went into it quite sceptical, but

00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:19.259
enjoyed it. And then I think watching it the

00:11:19.259 --> 00:11:21.100
second time round, A, with the knowledge of how

00:11:21.100 --> 00:11:24.360
the plot goes, but also specifically because

00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.720
I was paying more attention to it, because I

00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.240
knew I was going to talk about it for an hour

00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:35.379
and a half on a podcast episode. I think it's

00:11:35.379 --> 00:11:37.960
quite clever. the way that it does it there's

00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.120
a lot going on that you wouldn't notice unless

00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:43.500
you were looking for it yeah which i really liked

00:11:43.500 --> 00:11:46.220
about in terms of their like how their dynamic

00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:49.299
plays out i think is really quite subtle not

00:11:49.299 --> 00:11:51.480
very subtle in some ways but really quite subtle

00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:54.360
in others yeah well you earlier on you mentioned

00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.820
um something you'd spotted about how at one point

00:11:56.820 --> 00:11:59.720
he asks he tells her that she should have put

00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.700
more sugar in his coffee yeah and then at a later

00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:04.500
point says now there's too much sugar in his

00:12:04.500 --> 00:12:06.620
coffee yeah and i'd never picked up on that having

00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:09.019
seen this probably eight or nine times and it

00:12:09.019 --> 00:12:10.899
is just the more times you watch it the more

00:12:10.899 --> 00:12:13.899
little subtle behaviors you start to spot like

00:12:13.899 --> 00:12:16.779
that which is really cool yeah and that and that's

00:12:16.779 --> 00:12:18.259
the kind of thing that i really liked about it

00:12:18.259 --> 00:12:21.360
yeah like that even to them subtle power play

00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.139
going on there you know because she could never

00:12:24.139 --> 00:12:28.159
get it right and that's the point um But yeah,

00:12:28.220 --> 00:12:29.940
I definitely didn't know it's like the first

00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.419
time round. I think one of the things I really

00:12:32.419 --> 00:12:35.340
like about it was finally there was a relatable

00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:38.840
dominant. Yes. On the screen. Because he's not

00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:43.299
Mr. Grey from Fifty Shades. He's not whatever

00:12:43.299 --> 00:12:45.980
the guy's name is in Baby Girl. I can't even

00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:47.820
remember the name of the actor there. How little

00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:51.379
I care about that film. I will say I really liked

00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:53.539
Baby Girl, but I don't think it's had a massive

00:12:53.539 --> 00:12:56.539
cultural impact because the dominant was not

00:12:56.539 --> 00:12:59.549
that interesting. I'm 100 % in it for the submissive,

00:12:59.570 --> 00:13:02.549
but that's another episode. But finally, there

00:13:02.549 --> 00:13:06.009
is a dominant character that not only can I relate

00:13:06.009 --> 00:13:10.169
to, but is actually quite common in the kink

00:13:10.169 --> 00:13:17.909
community and in the BDSM community. He's really

00:13:17.909 --> 00:13:20.809
talented. He's very intelligent, but he is shy

00:13:20.809 --> 00:13:24.669
as fuck and awkward as fuck. Yep. And in some

00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:28.139
way neurodivergent. Yeah. Like, I'm not going

00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:31.480
to label him as autistic, but yeah, very neurodivergent

00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:34.860
in his approach to his work and the way he lives

00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:38.340
his life. You know, his obsessive care over his

00:13:38.340 --> 00:13:42.000
orchids and really quite elaborate system for

00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.460
caring for them as well. Yes. Like the contraption

00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.399
that he has to mist them and stuff like that.

00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.080
Very fancy. So it was just nice to kind of turn

00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.000
that trope on its head a little bit of kind of

00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.500
the arrogant... The classically attractive, well

00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:58.480
-built, rich, dominant man kind of thing, you

00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.399
know, chiseled jaw and all of that kind of stuff.

00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.440
And James Spader is an attractive man, but he

00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.960
is not that stereotype that you usually see.

00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:08.879
I agree, and very much played him as an awkward

00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:11.779
nerd, which is what almost every dominant I've

00:14:11.779 --> 00:14:16.700
ever met is. I really enjoy as well the switch

00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:20.100
you see with him between like when he's interviewing

00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:22.000
her and when he's talking to her and he's trying

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.840
not to step into his dominant role when he's

00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:28.360
trying to just be his at work self. He struggles

00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:31.259
to make eye contact. He's sort of awkwardly moving

00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:33.960
his hands a lot. He can't seem to settle in one

00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:35.559
position for very long and kind of moves around

00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.419
the room. It's like he's not at home in his skin.

00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.580
But then when he is acting in his dominant role.

00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.519
You see direct eye contact, confident body language,

00:14:45.740 --> 00:14:48.679
completely in control. And I've seen that flip

00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.200
with every dominant that I've interacted with

00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:52.679
socially and then have either played with or

00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.840
watched play. Like that is what it is like. And

00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.000
I find that so much more believable than characters

00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.059
who are just this sort of perfectly confident,

00:15:03.139 --> 00:15:05.799
perfectly charming, perfectly in control dominant

00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:07.720
all the time because that's just not how people

00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.379
are. Yeah, and it's really nice to see. Because

00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:13.039
you're right, you can see the difference in him

00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.000
when he's not doing that and trying not to do

00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.740
that. And when he is doing that, when he feels

00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:20.159
able to. And again, especially at the end, where

00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.379
they are together in a 24 -7 DS dynamic, they

00:15:24.379 --> 00:15:29.320
both seem so much more at ease. Like, in the

00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:33.000
world, in that three -minute scene or whatever

00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.919
it is at the end of the film. Definitely. Which

00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:38.179
is really nice to see. Because you also don't

00:15:38.179 --> 00:15:41.419
often see that. in this kind of film yeah you

00:15:41.419 --> 00:15:44.799
know oh let's be fair my experience of kink films

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.179
is I haven't seen lots of them but They don't

00:15:47.179 --> 00:15:49.559
all end happily, do they? I think it depends.

00:15:49.700 --> 00:15:51.440
It depends on the film. And we have many more

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.639
that we all watch. I think it's not only relatively

00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.080
rare to see a film about a couple ending up in

00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:57.840
a kinky relationship together because we don't

00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.399
have enough representation as it is, but for

00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.059
the kink not to be presented as a barrier to

00:16:03.059 --> 00:16:05.919
intimacy in any way. Secretary very much shows

00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.399
the kink as the intimacy. When he pulls back

00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.960
from the kink, he pulls back from everything.

00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:12.100
When they resolve their problems and get together,

00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:14.600
it's done through kink and it's done with kink

00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.210
integrated into the relationship. they have in

00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:20.350
pillion that we talked about yeah the nature

00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:24.610
of the dynamic is a barrier to intimacy the message

00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:26.570
of the film seemed to be very much you can't

00:16:26.570 --> 00:16:29.570
do this 24 7 there needs to be a break there

00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:31.169
needs to be a point where you get away from the

00:16:31.169 --> 00:16:32.710
kink because the kink is what's blocking your

00:16:32.710 --> 00:16:36.169
intimacy secretary says absolutely fuck that

00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:39.149
yeah if you say to me we can't do this 24 hours

00:16:39.149 --> 00:16:42.039
a day seven days a week i say why not Yeah. Like

00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:44.519
that line is the core message of Secretary. And

00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:46.320
that's why I love it so much, I think, because

00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.799
it dares to say, actually, this stuff is really

00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.399
fucking intimate. Yeah. I think what was interesting

00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:54.720
to me about the way that it presented intimacy,

00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.980
kink as being intimate, is there isn't actually

00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.500
a lot of sex in the film. There's not. And the

00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:04.619
vast majority of sexual contact in the film is

00:17:04.619 --> 00:17:07.259
between Lee and her fiancé that she is not happy

00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.619
with. And actually that scene where she has sex

00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:13.839
with her fiancé is probably the most coercive

00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.160
thing that happens in the film. Yeah. You know,

00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:20.480
because of the way that he approaches it. Yeah,

00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.079
and that she's visibly not into it. Visibly not

00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.480
into it, kind of giving in to his desire to have

00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:32.680
sex. Yeah. In a film about kink, and given some

00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:35.400
of the attitudes that there are to it, actually

00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.609
the most coercive thing in the film is. is vanilla

00:17:37.609 --> 00:17:40.750
sex yeah and that whole relationship and I don't

00:17:40.750 --> 00:17:42.670
think it's definitely not framed as anything

00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:45.470
sort of malicious from his side no no but that

00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:48.509
whole relationship is very much he thinks that

00:17:48.509 --> 00:17:50.630
they should have a relationship and then he thinks

00:17:50.630 --> 00:17:51.970
they should have sex and then he thinks they

00:17:51.970 --> 00:17:53.950
should get married yeah and she just goes along

00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:56.390
with it because she doesn't know how to how to

00:17:56.390 --> 00:17:59.410
not yeah and that could be down to her being

00:17:59.410 --> 00:18:01.490
submissive it could be down to her social awkwardness

00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:04.119
it could be down to sort of pressures from family

00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:06.539
it could be a lot of things but it's societal

00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:10.859
scripts yes because it was very much it feels

00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:12.900
really relatable to me not the specific relationship

00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:15.240
because her specific relationship with peter

00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.900
her fiance is much more of a terrible mess than

00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:21.640
anything i've been in i think but that relationship

00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.539
on rails where you just take the next step because

00:18:24.539 --> 00:18:26.519
that's what you're supposed to do really was

00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:29.039
just a good summing up of every vanilla relationship

00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.720
i ever had where there was no malice on the other

00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:34.589
person's part usually there was no conscious

00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:37.049
decision from me to force myself into a box and

00:18:37.049 --> 00:18:40.269
conform there was just and then you do this and

00:18:40.269 --> 00:18:42.609
then you do this and then it's been 10 years

00:18:42.609 --> 00:18:45.569
and you're still not happy and having a film

00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:50.369
that really showed how how shit that feels and

00:18:50.369 --> 00:18:52.809
how monotonous it feels and how coercive it can

00:18:52.809 --> 00:18:55.450
feel and sets that up in contrast to here's a

00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:57.960
kink relationship that breaks All of the rules.

00:18:58.119 --> 00:18:59.779
It breaks all the rules of what Vanilla Society

00:18:59.779 --> 00:19:02.019
tells you you should have. It also breaks a lot

00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:04.019
of rules that we should have, like don't sexually

00:19:04.019 --> 00:19:07.339
harass your secretary. Yeah. But it's transgressive

00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:10.339
and therefore it's more real. Yeah. And I think

00:19:10.339 --> 00:19:12.579
that's something that we don't see represented

00:19:12.579 --> 00:19:15.240
a lot. No, I agree. Something else that we don't

00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.940
often see in this type of film, or which is kind

00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.019
of easily overlooked in this type of film, is

00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:25.259
a submissive woman with agency. Yes. I think

00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:27.509
this is something that you... were if i wanted

00:19:27.509 --> 00:19:29.970
to put words in your mouth i think this is probably

00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:31.829
a strong contender for one of the top reasons

00:19:31.829 --> 00:19:35.670
why you like this film so lee is without a doubt

00:19:35.670 --> 00:19:38.589
a very shy and inexperienced inexperienced um

00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.289
submissive someone inexperienced in the kink

00:19:41.289 --> 00:19:45.250
world and the trope would go that the big manly

00:19:45.250 --> 00:19:47.589
arrogant dominant would come along and teach

00:19:47.589 --> 00:19:51.130
her the ways yes and be leading and directing

00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:53.410
and that kind of doesn't happen i mean it happens

00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:56.490
a little bit in this movie But that's not the

00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:58.890
whole story. Definitely. Because I feel like

00:19:58.890 --> 00:20:01.950
it very much starts out like that. She is, as

00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:04.490
you say, shy, inexperienced. She doesn't really

00:20:04.490 --> 00:20:06.529
know a lot about relationships. She's never had

00:20:06.529 --> 00:20:10.569
a job before. Very naive. And then he just starts

00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:14.109
doing BDSM to her. So it could very easily have

00:20:14.109 --> 00:20:16.869
stayed on that track where he's now going to

00:20:16.869 --> 00:20:19.369
teach her everything. He's going to just tell

00:20:19.369 --> 00:20:21.490
her what's what and she's just going to go along

00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:24.160
with it. maybe she'll like it maybe she won't

00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.240
but he's going to be in the lead and actually

00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.799
very quickly it flips where she is the one pursuing

00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:31.299
him yeah because at the point where he starts

00:20:31.299 --> 00:20:34.180
to pull back he's obviously in this pattern of

00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:36.359
doing all of this stuff to his secretaries and

00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:38.599
he feels like shit about it as he should because

00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:40.700
that's not the way to go about this stuff yeah

00:20:40.700 --> 00:20:43.079
um but he obviously feels a lot of shame around

00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.240
his desires in general and doesn't see any other

00:20:45.609 --> 00:20:47.990
healthier more consensual outlook for them so

00:20:47.990 --> 00:20:50.109
he tries to stop and he tries to resist those

00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:52.750
urges that he has and that's where we see the

00:20:52.750 --> 00:20:56.690
sub in frenzy she is acting out she is not just

00:20:56.690 --> 00:20:58.710
making typos in her documents anymore she's putting

00:20:58.710 --> 00:21:02.029
worms into his letters she is bending over his

00:21:02.029 --> 00:21:04.089
desk and wriggling her butt to try to get attention

00:21:04.089 --> 00:21:07.309
yeah she is doing all of this ah the butt wiggle

00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:09.549
of mischief the butt wiggle of mischief is a

00:21:09.549 --> 00:21:14.519
good technique And at the end, it's her that

00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.400
confronts him about his shame, about the way

00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:19.559
that he's withdrawn from her, about what she

00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.579
wants and what she knows he wants. It's her that

00:21:22.579 --> 00:21:24.960
forces him to be vulnerable and says that she

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.839
can see the way that he suffers too. It's her

00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:31.059
that toughs out that unknown period of time where

00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:33.559
she's feet planted, hands planted in his office,

00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.480
refusing to leave until he accepts her as a submissive.

00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.059
Yeah. Like this is not a submissive who's just

00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:41.019
been told you have to be a sub now because you're

00:21:41.019 --> 00:21:42.539
the girl in this movie and I'm going to teach

00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:44.880
you how to be a sub. Yeah. This is someone who

00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.119
has had something wake up in her and it is hungry.

00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:49.759
Yeah. And I fucking love that because that is

00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.220
more relatable to me by a long way. Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.200
She's really driving things by the end of it.

00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.920
Yeah. She's completely driving things. Yeah.

00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:00.759
By the end of the movie. You don't see enough.

00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:05.059
I don't think. No. Which I think as we talk about

00:22:05.059 --> 00:22:07.180
a little bit at the start, I think that. that

00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:09.079
balances out some of the consent issues in the

00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.059
movie for me it would it's like obviously this

00:22:12.059 --> 00:22:13.839
is not a scenario that should play out like this

00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.380
in real life shouldn't be fucking around with

00:22:16.380 --> 00:22:18.680
co -workers shouldn't be jumping into this stuff

00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.460
without a proper conversation about it but as

00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:24.519
a piece of fiction where these characters are

00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:26.799
expressing elements of ourselves that we can

00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:30.089
recognize I think it's beautiful because it shows

00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:33.230
the intimacy and it shows the agency in submission

00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:35.329
and it shows how it can be collaborative and

00:22:35.329 --> 00:22:38.190
how there is that push and pull where both of

00:22:38.190 --> 00:22:39.670
you are leading each other in different ways.

00:22:40.109 --> 00:22:42.829
Yeah. It captures a lot of what kink feels like,

00:22:42.869 --> 00:22:45.349
even if it doesn't capture how kink should be

00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:48.329
done. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, I think that's

00:22:48.329 --> 00:22:50.210
a really good, I think that's a really good way

00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:51.230
of putting it. And it's something that we've

00:22:51.230 --> 00:22:53.750
talked about before of putting a detailed negotiation

00:22:53.750 --> 00:22:58.150
where consent is really, really clear. in a movie

00:22:58.150 --> 00:23:01.329
can go one of two ways i suppose either it can

00:23:01.329 --> 00:23:03.210
be kind of fun which in a weird way it was in

00:23:03.210 --> 00:23:05.470
50 shades or it could just be quite dull yeah

00:23:05.470 --> 00:23:09.049
because for them i'm struggling today as well

00:23:09.049 --> 00:23:12.470
for the most part the negotiation part of for

00:23:12.470 --> 00:23:14.430
it whether it's for a scene or for a dynamic

00:23:14.430 --> 00:23:16.970
or whatever it's exciting but it's exciting to

00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:19.839
the people who are doing it yeah It's probably

00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.700
not that exciting to watch. I also feel like

00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:25.000
an extended negotiation scene in Secretary wouldn't

00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:27.380
have been believable for either character until

00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:30.279
the end of the movie, where they resolve all

00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.839
of their difficulties and go off to start a relationship

00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:35.160
together. At that point, I imagine they had some

00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:37.059
really clear negotiation and they probably learned

00:23:37.059 --> 00:23:39.400
how to do that. But the point of this movie is

00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:41.440
it's about two people who don't have a fucking

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.880
clue what they're doing. They're hardwired to

00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:46.180
be a dominant and a submissive, but they don't

00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:50.069
know how. They are muddling through and they

00:23:50.069 --> 00:23:52.329
are making mistakes and they are crossing each

00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:54.170
other's boundaries and they are fucking it up,

00:23:54.230 --> 00:23:57.569
but they find each other. Yeah. And I think sometimes

00:23:57.569 --> 00:23:59.490
you have to let characters in movies be messy

00:23:59.490 --> 00:24:01.049
because they're not here to teach us how to do

00:24:01.049 --> 00:24:03.130
kink. They're here to entertain us for an hour

00:24:03.130 --> 00:24:06.049
and a half. No, that is true. And if you had

00:24:06.049 --> 00:24:07.549
characters in movies who weren't messing, it

00:24:07.549 --> 00:24:09.930
would be quite a boring film. I don't know. I'm

00:24:09.930 --> 00:24:11.430
one of these people who would quite happily watch

00:24:11.430 --> 00:24:13.190
a movie where everything goes right, but I know

00:24:13.190 --> 00:24:22.119
I'm in a minority. I can't think of a single

00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:25.019
film where that has happened. No, people like

00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:28.420
conflict, so it doesn't happen. Yeah. But there

00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:30.039
was an episode of Star Trek, I think it was a

00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.579
Deep Space Nine episode, where they just played

00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:34.559
baseball. And it was great. It was really chill.

00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.640
I don't remember that one. I'm going to Google

00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:39.039
to check that I'm right. Yeah, so in Star Trek

00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.119
Deep Space Nine, there is an episode called Take

00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.079
Me Out to the Hollow Suite. And all that happens

00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:46.839
in it is they play baseball. Nice. Yep. And there

00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:49.089
should be more stuff like that. Everyone just

00:24:49.089 --> 00:24:50.789
has a nice low -stakes time where nothing bad

00:24:50.789 --> 00:24:56.269
happens. Yeah. Yeah. I think Star Trek is good

00:24:56.269 --> 00:24:57.849
at that kind of thing, though. There's proper

00:24:57.849 --> 00:25:01.529
diversion now. I think there are a few episodes

00:25:01.529 --> 00:25:04.670
like that in all of the series. Deep Space Nine

00:25:04.670 --> 00:25:07.690
did it with Trials and Tribulations, which was

00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:09.910
the throwback to Trouble with Tribbles from the

00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:14.930
original series. Yes. Which in itself was a silly

00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:17.940
episode. Yeah. You know? But those silly episodes

00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:22.380
had peril. Yeah, but it was peril with a small

00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:27.180
p. Yeah. Wasn't it? But I like when there is

00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:29.980
no peril. No peril at all. I just want everything

00:25:29.980 --> 00:25:35.200
to go really smoothly for a bit. Yeah. Fair.

00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.140
But that's just how stories go, isn't it? It

00:25:38.140 --> 00:25:42.440
is. How films go. Three -act stories. All of

00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:44.440
that nonsense. Anyway, should we talk a bit more

00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.940
about... secretary given that that's what the

00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:48.779
people are paying for we probably should yes

00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:50.339
mix well they're not paying for it good thing

00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:52.460
they're not paying for it yeah it's free though

00:25:52.460 --> 00:25:55.480
you get what you're given yeah but then on patreon

00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.579
they do pay for it and we're even worse true

00:25:58.579 --> 00:26:01.119
oh there you go that's the best advert for our

00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.880
patreon that i've heard so far pay for it and

00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:09.079
it's even worse you're like this but worse Anyway,

00:26:09.220 --> 00:26:11.339
secondary. Something I really like about this

00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:13.420
movie but is definitely controversial when I

00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:15.640
see people criticising this movie, this is usually

00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.019
what they're complaining about, is the way that

00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:21.279
it shows a masochist character who struggles

00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.079
with self -harm. Because I think that is a risky

00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.640
choice. And there are a lot of versions of this

00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:28.960
movie that it could have been that would have

00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.119
really pissed me off. But I like how they did

00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:37.750
it because it felt quite real to me. Right. Because

00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:39.490
I think it's such a difficult thing to talk about.

00:26:39.549 --> 00:26:42.349
As soon as you start saying, I'm a masochist

00:26:42.349 --> 00:26:45.069
and I have self -harmed, immediately people start

00:26:45.069 --> 00:26:47.029
going, ah, you should go to therapy instead of

00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:50.089
doing weird sex games. And ah, you are into masochism

00:26:50.089 --> 00:26:51.890
because it's just outsourcing your self -harm

00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:54.069
and all of these kind of misconceptions. And

00:26:54.069 --> 00:26:56.470
the instinct that you have as a masochist to

00:26:56.470 --> 00:26:58.230
go, no, no, no, they're completely different.

00:26:58.309 --> 00:26:59.950
They sit in completely different boxes. They

00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:02.509
have nothing in common. And to an extent, that's

00:27:02.509 --> 00:27:06.700
true. But I don't think... Much as it's not always

00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:08.400
comfortable to think about, I don't think you

00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.700
can ignore the way that those wires will connect

00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:14.400
somewhere in your head. I think there is going

00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.039
to be an element, if you're someone who's inclined

00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:18.500
towards masochism, when your brain is looking

00:27:18.500 --> 00:27:21.460
for a coping strategy for depression or trauma,

00:27:21.579 --> 00:27:23.980
if you already have an atypical relationship

00:27:23.980 --> 00:27:27.920
to pain, could that predispose you towards self

00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:31.380
-harm being the direction that goes in? I think

00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.359
probably the answer for at least some people

00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.099
is going to be yes. I hadn't really thought about

00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:37.319
it in that order. I suppose I think I'd fallen

00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.000
into the trap of assuming that it only ever goes

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.460
in the other direction of self -harm to masochism

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:45.259
rather than masochism to self -harm. I guess

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:47.079
in terms of the chronology of the movie, that

00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:49.200
is what happens. She is self -harming and then

00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.619
she discovers masochism. But if you understand

00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:54.960
masochism as something that's an inherent part

00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:57.259
of who people are, even before they discover

00:27:57.259 --> 00:28:00.549
it, her masochism was always there. Yeah. And

00:28:00.549 --> 00:28:02.730
you can see that she has a pleasure response

00:28:02.730 --> 00:28:04.970
to her self -harming. Yeah. There's an element

00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:08.109
of it being seeking a release of some sort or

00:28:08.109 --> 00:28:09.970
seeking a distraction from other things that

00:28:09.970 --> 00:28:11.930
are going on in her life. Yeah. But she also

00:28:11.930 --> 00:28:14.849
visibly enjoys it. Yeah. Which is a very taboo

00:28:14.849 --> 00:28:18.049
thing to show. Yeah. And it's a difficult thing

00:28:18.049 --> 00:28:21.630
to talk about because no one wants to start romanticising

00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:23.710
or glorifying self -harm. That's definitely not

00:28:23.710 --> 00:28:25.950
what we're about. Yeah. And when I think about

00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:28.730
my... history of self -harm it's good for my

00:28:28.730 --> 00:28:32.390
sanity to put that in a box of that was bad and

00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:34.630
we don't do that anymore yeah yeah but it's not

00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:37.210
always completely honest to put it in a box of

00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:39.289
that was entirely bad and i never had any positive

00:28:39.289 --> 00:28:41.730
experience from it because if i didn't get something

00:28:41.730 --> 00:28:44.690
from it i wouldn't have done it yeah and that's

00:28:44.690 --> 00:28:46.670
a really tricky thing to navigate and i think

00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:49.089
i think the movie choosing to go there was brave

00:28:49.959 --> 00:28:52.359
um i think choosing to show a masochist that

00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:54.220
struggles with self -harm was a really risky

00:28:54.220 --> 00:28:56.500
thing to do and being able to do it in a way

00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.299
that didn't feel judgmental and didn't feel stigmatizing

00:29:00.299 --> 00:29:03.319
was impressive because it very easily could have

00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:05.480
been yeah it's really interesting to hear you

00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.339
talk about that because i i think i not having

00:29:07.339 --> 00:29:09.640
had experience of self -harm in that in in that

00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:12.890
way i think i kind of read that a little bit

00:29:12.890 --> 00:29:16.190
differently. I saw the connection between how

00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:19.170
she responded when she was hurting herself and

00:29:19.170 --> 00:29:23.809
when she was being hurt by Edward. And a positive,

00:29:23.849 --> 00:29:26.329
almost kind of sense of relief happening in both

00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:29.470
of those scenarios. But I think the thing that

00:29:29.470 --> 00:29:34.150
stood out more for me was that developing dynamic

00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:37.250
with Edward was kind of diversionary in a way.

00:29:37.849 --> 00:29:40.309
I mean, he specifically instructs her not to...

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.740
hurt herself again yeah and she doesn't and i

00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:46.680
don't think that is a simple act of obedience

00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:49.660
i think there is something about for her that

00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:54.119
relationship with edward as weird as it is is

00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:57.200
probably the most stable thing in her life yeah

00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.359
like she's got quite a chaotic life at home like

00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.500
her dad is an alcoholic he is hurting her mother

00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:10.809
um she doesn't feel happy or or settled in her

00:30:10.809 --> 00:30:12.970
other relationship with with with her boyfriend

00:30:12.970 --> 00:30:16.650
and actually what you've got in this dynamic

00:30:16.650 --> 00:30:20.569
is something solid something clear and structured

00:30:20.569 --> 00:30:23.609
like as as difficult as he makes it for her to

00:30:23.609 --> 00:30:27.329
follow the rules there are rules and and kind

00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:29.190
of so i kind of almost saw it i guess from a

00:30:29.190 --> 00:30:30.470
different perspective and it's probably a little

00:30:30.470 --> 00:30:33.509
bit of both yeah like actually what helped her

00:30:33.509 --> 00:30:36.289
to get on top of the self -help was partly because

00:30:36.289 --> 00:30:39.369
somebody else was hurting her, but partly because

00:30:39.369 --> 00:30:42.349
she felt safe. Yeah, and I definitely don't disagree

00:30:42.349 --> 00:30:44.950
with that. I think it shows both sides of that.

00:30:45.089 --> 00:30:48.910
I think it shows how masochism and self -harm

00:30:48.910 --> 00:30:51.690
can often exist in the same person, and they

00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:53.349
fit in different boxes and they have a different

00:30:53.349 --> 00:30:57.289
context, and that masochism and self -harm are

00:30:57.289 --> 00:31:00.109
not the same thing, but how someone who has an

00:31:00.109 --> 00:31:02.769
unusual relationship with pain might be drawn

00:31:02.769 --> 00:31:05.500
to pain. in some ways that aren't healthy and

00:31:05.500 --> 00:31:08.359
i think it also does a good job of showing a

00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:10.779
submissive who has an issue with self -harm and

00:31:10.779 --> 00:31:13.720
how clear structure and stability and guidance

00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:15.799
can be one of the things that becomes a protective

00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.579
factor for that and all manner of other self

00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:20.619
-destructive behaviors which i really liked as

00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:24.140
well yeah um because you're right i think it's

00:31:24.140 --> 00:31:26.599
not just a simple act of obedience i think she's

00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:29.319
very drawn to obedience but i think when he tells

00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:32.220
her to stop self -harming It's similar to the

00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:33.859
part where she walks home on her own for the

00:31:33.859 --> 00:31:36.500
first time. Yeah. And she talks about how she

00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:38.839
felt confident enough to do it because he had

00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:42.279
given her permission. Yeah. I think maybe when

00:31:42.279 --> 00:31:44.180
he told her to stop self -harming might have

00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:45.740
been the first time she'd ever believed she was

00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:48.920
capable of that. Yeah. And having someone that

00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.799
she really trusts as an authority figure tell

00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.619
her that she can and she will is what took for

00:31:53.619 --> 00:31:56.559
her to be able to do that. Yeah. Because I've

00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.420
seen some people being quite uncomfortable with

00:31:58.420 --> 00:32:01.420
the idea of a dominant making that a rule. or

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.500
giving that as an instruction um because it starts

00:32:04.500 --> 00:32:07.400
to get into that tricky area of people using

00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.039
kink as therapy and how high risk and unethical

00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.099
that can be yeah if your partner is If your partner

00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:14.900
is in a position where they are the thing that

00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:16.799
is keeping your life together and they are treating

00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.799
your problems, then it can be a huge amount of

00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.079
pressure on everyone involved and it's not sustainable

00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:25.940
and can create really unhealthy dependence. But

00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:29.740
it is unavoidably true that many, many submissives

00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:31.940
have a much better quality of life when we have

00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:33.940
a lot of clear rules and guidance and structure

00:32:33.940 --> 00:32:36.220
that force us to do things that we wouldn't do

00:32:36.220 --> 00:32:39.039
for ourselves. And I think it shows that really

00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:41.920
well. yeah yeah and i think that's a really good

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.779
point to make because not only is kink not therapy

00:32:44.779 --> 00:32:47.200
and therapy is not kink but in this specific

00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:51.880
context the man is a lawyer not a therapist yeah

00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:57.019
um i got to admit i think i would really struggle

00:32:57.019 --> 00:33:00.299
with implementing that rule yeah i think i would

00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:04.240
feel very out of my depth that's fair telling

00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:09.129
you or telling anyone to not self -harm simply

00:33:09.129 --> 00:33:12.549
because although logically I can understand why

00:33:12.549 --> 00:33:14.410
that might be happening and you could tell me

00:33:14.410 --> 00:33:16.009
why that is I feel like that would be something

00:33:16.009 --> 00:33:18.769
that is so deeply ingrained in in your life history

00:33:18.769 --> 00:33:21.329
and the reasons behind that are not going to

00:33:21.329 --> 00:33:23.490
be fixed just by me telling you not to do it

00:33:23.490 --> 00:33:25.630
the interesting thing is we obviously we don't

00:33:25.630 --> 00:33:27.329
have that rule and I haven't self -harmed for

00:33:27.329 --> 00:33:30.930
a long time but my personal reading of our contract

00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:32.730
would be that I am not allowed to do that anyway

00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:36.099
Because there's stuff in there about my responsibility

00:33:36.099 --> 00:33:39.779
to take care of your property. So although we

00:33:39.779 --> 00:33:42.019
don't have a rule that says you will not self

00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:44.839
-harm, I would feel like I was doing something

00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.039
completely wrong and in conflict with all of

00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:51.460
the core values of our dynamic. If I was to do

00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:54.019
that, hurting me is not my job. Yeah, I think

00:33:54.019 --> 00:33:56.059
that's a fair point. I think the point to make

00:33:56.059 --> 00:33:58.140
there is that although you have self -harmed

00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:00.240
in the past, that is something that you haven't

00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.640
done for a long time and isn't. a present risk

00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:08.340
yeah i think if it was we might have ended up

00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:10.219
in the same place with the contract and we might

00:34:10.219 --> 00:34:12.539
even have ended up with a rule about it but we

00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:13.719
would have talked about it and we would have

00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.519
talked about it a lot yes yes we would you know

00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:21.300
i'm not i'm not sure and i i would be fully comfortable

00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:23.179
with setting up a rule that said you will not

00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:26.699
self -harm i think i would probably be more comfortable

00:34:26.699 --> 00:34:29.760
with a set of rules which says if you feel like

00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.300
you need to you need to communicate that and

00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:34.199
if you're going to do it you're going to do it

00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:38.679
in a safe way so harm reduction rather than stopping

00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:42.059
yeah i think and that seems fair as well i think

00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:45.000
when you start getting into any kind of rules

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:48.440
to be fair you have to think a lot about unintended

00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.159
consequences and you know if you modify a behavior

00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.199
in this area what knock -on effect is it going

00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:56.199
to have on a behavior in that area particularly

00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:58.219
when you start getting into people's coping strategies

00:34:58.219 --> 00:35:01.159
even unhealthy ones yeah you don't know where

00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:03.000
that pressure is going to burst out if you tell

00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:04.539
someone you are forbidden from self -harming

00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:06.699
you don't know what is going to pop up as the

00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:09.159
next on their list of coping strategies so i

00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:11.280
think it's it's definitely something better addressed

00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:14.019
through more conventional means like therapy

00:35:14.019 --> 00:35:18.610
yeah But also I know that a lot of the worst

00:35:18.610 --> 00:35:21.190
impulses I have are very effectively managed

00:35:21.190 --> 00:35:24.190
by a power exchange relationship. And the fact

00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:26.309
that I always see like the most important responsibility

00:35:26.309 --> 00:35:30.230
I have is to be of service and be useful and

00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:31.789
be behaving in the way that you would want me

00:35:31.789 --> 00:35:34.429
to behave. Taking good care of your property

00:35:34.429 --> 00:35:36.550
comes within that. So I feel like even if we

00:35:36.550 --> 00:35:38.750
never discussed it, if I suddenly had a self

00:35:38.750 --> 00:35:41.389
-harm urge now, my first thought would be, I

00:35:41.389 --> 00:35:44.619
can't do that. yeah that's not allowed even without

00:35:44.619 --> 00:35:47.260
that being a rule yeah but i think maybe that's

00:35:47.260 --> 00:35:50.579
yeah having it be implied by the general overview

00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:52.500
of the rules is probably a little healthier than

00:35:52.500 --> 00:35:54.920
having you step in and take that on as your responsibility

00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:59.000
because that's a lot yeah yeah i think so i think

00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.900
so because you're right to be fair to edward

00:36:01.900 --> 00:36:05.619
gray that rule is very much you know we talked

00:36:05.619 --> 00:36:07.940
about those categories of rules that we have

00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:12.070
that's very much in there These are the rules

00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:14.050
that protect the health and well -being of the

00:36:14.050 --> 00:36:17.630
submissive. Yeah. Totally understand where that

00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:20.989
came from. I think it was a bold move to do that

00:36:20.989 --> 00:36:23.110
because stopping you from doing the thing doesn't

00:36:23.110 --> 00:36:24.909
solve the problem that led to you doing the thing.

00:36:25.090 --> 00:36:29.210
Yeah. That's where I would be. That's where my

00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:31.250
worry would come from. The cause of that need

00:36:31.250 --> 00:36:33.969
doesn't go away. Yeah. Just because I say you

00:36:33.969 --> 00:36:37.210
can't do it. Yeah. so where does that go and

00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:39.070
it feels like the movie kind of implies that

00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:41.530
having the structure of a dynamic and having

00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:44.510
the pain being spanked and things like that is

00:36:44.510 --> 00:36:48.190
solving the problem and i think that's where

00:36:48.190 --> 00:36:49.969
it's maybe a little bit weaker because for some

00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:52.230
people it might but for some people for most

00:36:52.230 --> 00:36:53.869
people i think that is not going to be enough

00:36:53.869 --> 00:36:57.510
to completely resolve things yeah yeah yeah but

00:36:57.510 --> 00:36:59.929
overall i still i like that it's and i think

00:36:59.929 --> 00:37:01.989
it was handled pretty pretty damn well considering

00:37:02.799 --> 00:37:04.739
Yeah. And again, the first time I saw it, it

00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:06.219
felt like the first time when we watched it together.

00:37:10.340 --> 00:37:12.960
You kind of see this vulnerable young woman coming

00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:14.960
out of a mental institution and then going home

00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:18.780
to a chaotic situation and harming herself. And

00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:23.980
you're like, oof. Are they really? Is that really

00:37:23.980 --> 00:37:26.940
where they're starting with this film? So it

00:37:26.940 --> 00:37:29.019
does give you that visceral response when you

00:37:29.019 --> 00:37:31.099
see it for the first time. So I can understand

00:37:31.099 --> 00:37:33.380
why people kind of have a negative reaction to

00:37:33.380 --> 00:37:37.219
it. But in the context of the rest of the movie,

00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.599
yeah, it tracks and it makes sense. One of the

00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:42.360
things I really like about this movie, and I

00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:43.800
think one of the first things that really stood

00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.659
out to me the first time I saw it, was how properly

00:37:47.659 --> 00:37:50.480
kinky it is. Sometimes kink in movies, it's very

00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:52.980
much that polished sort of kink that vanilla

00:37:52.980 --> 00:37:55.860
people will still think is sexy. The kind of

00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:58.150
thing that... people who aren't into kink will

00:37:58.150 --> 00:38:00.789
try a little bit of to spice things up. Yeah.

00:38:00.889 --> 00:38:03.409
And I think, for me at least, Secretary feels

00:38:03.409 --> 00:38:05.750
like it is willing to show stuff that people

00:38:05.750 --> 00:38:08.269
will look at and go, like, why? Yeah, like, how

00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:11.510
is that kinky? Yeah. Sort of thing. What did

00:38:11.510 --> 00:38:14.570
you think of that mix? Yeah, I think I loved

00:38:14.570 --> 00:38:19.969
that. I really enjoyed that about it. And I know

00:38:19.969 --> 00:38:22.070
when we do these movie review episodes, we try

00:38:22.070 --> 00:38:25.230
not to compare and contrast too much, but there

00:38:25.230 --> 00:38:28.639
is night and day. between how films like 50 shades

00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.920
deal with with kink and how this movie deals

00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.760
with kink like you kind of mr gray with his dungeon

00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:38.500
and all his very expensive floggers and and canes

00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:42.719
and stuff like that i there's very little what

00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:47.230
you would call obvious kink equipment yeah in

00:38:47.230 --> 00:38:49.409
the movie yeah the only thing i can really think

00:38:49.409 --> 00:38:52.829
of is the opening scene where we see her walking

00:38:52.829 --> 00:38:55.269
through the office with her hands attached to

00:38:55.269 --> 00:38:57.829
her cuff to a bar yes of course there is yeah

00:38:57.829 --> 00:38:59.949
there's the spreader bars that she uses yeah

00:38:59.949 --> 00:39:02.150
yeah yeah but other than that it is all very

00:39:02.150 --> 00:39:05.150
much perversion of everyday objects and human

00:39:05.150 --> 00:39:07.989
interactions which i really like yeah yeah like

00:39:07.989 --> 00:39:11.050
the idea of using a red pen a red sharpie yeah

00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:14.440
as a as an item of kink equipment I think it's

00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:16.280
just lovely because she has to type everything

00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:20.980
using a typewriter. And he is a very strict grammarian

00:39:20.980 --> 00:39:23.519
and doesn't like, you know, really kind of has

00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:26.139
quite a strong reaction to typos and spelling

00:39:26.139 --> 00:39:27.920
mistakes and stuff like that. And he red pens

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.219
all of her mistakes. Yeah. And it's stuff. Yeah.

00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:34.659
I really enjoy seeing things like that because

00:39:34.659 --> 00:39:37.559
it's not an unreasonable thing for a lawyer who

00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:40.699
employs a secretary to do is to correct letters

00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:42.099
and send it back and go do that again because

00:39:42.099 --> 00:39:44.519
you made mistakes. Yeah. It's the way that he

00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.889
does it. which is just wonderful to see. It's

00:39:47.889 --> 00:39:51.110
very ritualised and you see the red pens pop

00:39:51.110 --> 00:39:53.369
up through the movie. When he first hires her,

00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:55.690
he sweeps a bunch of red pens into the bin, which

00:39:55.690 --> 00:39:58.110
is very much him swearing off doing any of that

00:39:58.110 --> 00:40:01.050
perverted stuff this time around. And then you

00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:03.309
see him start using the red pens to correct her

00:40:03.309 --> 00:40:06.989
mistakes. There's a scene where she has put a

00:40:06.989 --> 00:40:09.150
worm into an envelope instead of a letter to

00:40:09.150 --> 00:40:11.349
try to get his attention. And he gets it out,

00:40:11.389 --> 00:40:13.150
lays it out carefully on a piece of paper and

00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:14.889
then circles it over and over and over again.

00:40:14.989 --> 00:40:17.929
in red pen yeah before finally caving and summoning

00:40:17.929 --> 00:40:19.949
her in there's a another point where he throws

00:40:19.949 --> 00:40:22.769
away all his red pens and then opens a drawer

00:40:22.769 --> 00:40:25.469
and there's a single red pen in a sort of gold

00:40:25.469 --> 00:40:27.929
bowl sitting in a drawer like ready for him to

00:40:27.929 --> 00:40:31.190
start this shit again like the the obsession

00:40:31.190 --> 00:40:35.030
with the red pens yeah is so delightfully perverse

00:40:35.030 --> 00:40:38.190
yeah and it feels so much more real to me than

00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:43.010
here's six expensive riding crops because it's

00:40:43.449 --> 00:40:46.690
And I don't mean this in a gatekeepy way. But

00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:49.829
it's proper power exchange. Yeah. For me, it

00:40:49.829 --> 00:40:55.309
is proper use of authority. You know? And in

00:40:55.309 --> 00:40:57.110
the context of that employment relationship,

00:40:57.289 --> 00:40:59.949
fairly obvious, I suppose. But it's a smart use

00:40:59.949 --> 00:41:05.269
of power on authority transfer. Yeah. Which is,

00:41:05.289 --> 00:41:08.389
yeah, I just love stuff like that. And the way

00:41:08.389 --> 00:41:11.349
that he exerts that power and exerts that control,

00:41:11.469 --> 00:41:14.090
like the scene where she's on the phone to him

00:41:14.090 --> 00:41:18.829
and he's giving her really fucking weird instructions

00:41:18.829 --> 00:41:22.329
about how much food and really specific instructions

00:41:22.329 --> 00:41:25.369
about how much food she can eat. Yeah. It's like

00:41:25.369 --> 00:41:27.210
saying you can have this much of your steak and

00:41:27.210 --> 00:41:29.690
you can have a tablespoon or whatever it is of

00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:33.710
potato and four peas. Yeah. And then she just

00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:37.699
does it. With absolutely no shame, no hint of

00:41:37.699 --> 00:41:39.380
embarrassment or anything. She's sitting with

00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:41.639
her family with her tiny little cube of steak,

00:41:41.860 --> 00:41:44.519
a little spoonful of potatoes and four peas on

00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:47.440
her plate. Yeah. It's just that's fucked up.

00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:54.059
You know, it's really messed up, but it's brilliant.

00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:57.860
Yeah. You know, really enjoyed sort of seeing

00:41:57.860 --> 00:42:01.880
that play out where it would be so easy for it

00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.849
just to go down a more stereotypical. discipline

00:42:04.849 --> 00:42:06.969
route where you do something wrong and then you

00:42:06.969 --> 00:42:10.510
get caned for it and that happens she gets spanked

00:42:10.510 --> 00:42:12.889
on a number of occasions for doing things wrong

00:42:12.889 --> 00:42:18.070
yeah but that's only a tiny part of it yeah which

00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:21.130
feels a lot more like how kink is for us because

00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:24.289
we do the sexy stuff we do the spanking and we

00:42:24.289 --> 00:42:26.650
do the handcuffs and we do all of that but also

00:42:26.650 --> 00:42:28.750
we end up getting turned on by the stupidest

00:42:28.750 --> 00:42:31.789
things Yeah. Like when we first started Findom

00:42:31.789 --> 00:42:33.269
and you were just demanding money for Greg's

00:42:33.269 --> 00:42:35.329
pasties and coffees. No one would look at that

00:42:35.329 --> 00:42:37.570
and go, that's sexual. But for us, it's really

00:42:37.570 --> 00:42:42.010
hot. And letting kink be just really weird. It's

00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:44.690
just, I love it. Yeah. And then out of nowhere,

00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:47.050
they do a pony play scene. Yeah. It's like right

00:42:47.050 --> 00:42:48.710
in the middle of the movie, isn't it? Where they're

00:42:48.710 --> 00:42:52.769
in their groove before it starts to go wrong.

00:42:53.389 --> 00:42:55.789
It's that little montage of what office life

00:42:55.789 --> 00:42:58.429
is like. And right in the middle of it. There's

00:42:58.429 --> 00:43:01.269
like 30 seconds where she's kneeling on his desk

00:43:01.269 --> 00:43:03.730
and he puts a saddle on her back and a carrot

00:43:03.730 --> 00:43:09.489
in her mouth. Yeah. And anyone who's not, well,

00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:11.650
even people who are kinky, I suppose, but definitely

00:43:11.650 --> 00:43:13.449
people who aren't kinky watching that will just

00:43:13.449 --> 00:43:18.349
go, what the fuck? But it's the exact kind of

00:43:18.349 --> 00:43:20.610
thing that happens in a kinky relationship is

00:43:20.610 --> 00:43:23.269
you just go, should we try a bit of that? Like,

00:43:23.309 --> 00:43:28.849
why not? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then we've

00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:31.769
already talked about the end scene, but talk

00:43:31.769 --> 00:43:33.869
about, regardless of how long she is actually

00:43:33.869 --> 00:43:36.329
sitting in that position, whether it is a number

00:43:36.329 --> 00:43:38.949
of hours or a number of days, the devotion that

00:43:38.949 --> 00:43:42.530
is required to do that. Yeah. And it draws a

00:43:42.530 --> 00:43:46.110
lot on, I think, more traditional forms of BDSM,

00:43:46.150 --> 00:43:49.289
so kind of slave positions and stuff like that,

00:43:49.349 --> 00:43:52.329
where you say it out loud, feet flat on the floor

00:43:52.329 --> 00:43:54.730
and hands on the desk. Doesn't sound like it

00:43:54.730 --> 00:43:57.239
would be all that uncomfortable. But like, try

00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.800
it, not move. Yeah, I can't sit at the same position

00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:04.559
at my desk for more than about 30 seconds. That's

00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.420
what I mean, though. It's like, it doesn't sound

00:44:06.420 --> 00:44:09.500
like it's physically strenuous. But try doing

00:44:09.500 --> 00:44:13.659
it. Yeah. And not moving. I would find that really,

00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.539
really hard. Yeah. And I say you would as well.

00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:20.199
I would lose my mind, yeah. Interesting. Oh,

00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:24.340
no. Interesting. I would do it, though. If you

00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:25.980
told me to, I would do it. I would just strongly

00:44:25.980 --> 00:44:30.519
prefer not to. But I'm not sure which kind of

00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:33.719
branch of BDSM that comes from, but it's a nod

00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.960
to that really ritualised aspect of BDSM and

00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:40.639
kind of holding slave positions as an act of

00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.500
service or as an act of devotion or as an act

00:44:42.500 --> 00:44:45.440
of worship or whatever. Yeah. It is, which is

00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.980
just, yeah, again, just really nice to see a

00:44:47.980 --> 00:44:51.690
range of ways that kink can be done. that power

00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:56.070
and authority and control can be exercised and

00:44:56.070 --> 00:44:59.190
discipline yeah as well can be exercised yeah

00:44:59.190 --> 00:45:01.030
something i really like with that scene is that

00:45:01.030 --> 00:45:03.210
she pisses herself as well yes and i don't mean

00:45:03.210 --> 00:45:06.530
i like it because i'm a huge pervert i mean it's

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:09.889
just because you're a huge pervert yeah um but

00:45:09.889 --> 00:45:12.809
like again it's allowing it's allowing the film

00:45:12.809 --> 00:45:15.760
to show something very deviant And it's also

00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:17.960
showing that depth of submission as well, to

00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.039
be prepared to really humiliate yourself like

00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:23.480
that, to piss yourself and continue to hold position

00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:25.940
and then sit there in your piss -soaked wedding

00:45:25.940 --> 00:45:28.880
dress and continue to hold position. Yeah. And

00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:30.900
the fact that when he then comes and gets her,

00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.900
he quite happily picks her up and he goes and

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.440
washes her in the bath. Yeah. I love that scene

00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.280
so much because it's proper. We finally get aftercare.

00:45:39.839 --> 00:45:42.340
because that's definitely a weak spot through

00:45:42.340 --> 00:45:44.300
the movie is that we're not seeing that and that's

00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:47.079
because they are both figuring this out and they're

00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:49.519
both or at least particularly he is trying to

00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.400
resist being fully engaged in this so there's

00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:53.780
a lot of kind of we're done play and get out

00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:56.500
my office yeah And then at the end, when he finally

00:45:56.500 --> 00:45:59.099
embraces that side of himself, he has no discomfort

00:45:59.099 --> 00:46:00.980
with the fact that she's been sitting there for

00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:03.239
God knows how long and she stinks of piss. He

00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:05.079
just wants to take care of her and be intimate

00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:07.340
with her. Yeah. And that really captures for

00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:10.179
me how King sort of breaks down a lot of that

00:46:10.179 --> 00:46:13.460
self -consciousness and disgust and shame and

00:46:13.460 --> 00:46:14.900
all of these things that we feel about ourselves

00:46:14.900 --> 00:46:16.840
and feel about other people and put up these

00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.219
walls between us. The thing that makes King so

00:46:19.219 --> 00:46:21.659
intimate is that permission to be messy and disgusting

00:46:21.659 --> 00:46:23.840
and raw in front of each other. Yeah. I really

00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:27.860
like that it showed that. Yeah, I agree. And

00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:30.380
for me, I think what I got from that was more

00:46:30.380 --> 00:46:33.320
about probably the devotional aspect of it. Yeah.

00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:36.980
I'm going to stay here no matter what to prove

00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:38.659
that I am worthy of them and to prove how much

00:46:38.659 --> 00:46:41.000
they mean to me. Yeah. Actually, I'm just going

00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:44.139
to... If I piss myself, I piss myself. Yeah.

00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:48.679
Because the task is this. Yeah. You know? Which

00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:52.110
I guess I would. In my position, I would pick

00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:53.789
up on more, I suppose. I was thinking that it's

00:46:53.789 --> 00:46:55.110
really interesting that we pick up on different

00:46:55.110 --> 00:46:57.429
things from that because of our roles. So for

00:46:57.429 --> 00:47:01.590
you, the thing that you love to see is the depth

00:47:01.590 --> 00:47:04.030
of devotion and submission. And the thing that

00:47:04.030 --> 00:47:05.829
I love to see is the way that she's accepted

00:47:05.829 --> 00:47:08.809
while being a mess. Yeah. Because that's maybe

00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:11.050
a summary of what we both get from this. Yeah.

00:47:11.849 --> 00:47:14.610
I mean, it's good for me to see both sides of

00:47:14.610 --> 00:47:17.800
them. But yeah, it was that devotional act. I

00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:20.159
think that was the thing for me. That's what

00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.739
that symbolised for me when she pissed herself.

00:47:22.980 --> 00:47:26.179
Yeah. In a wedding dress. In a boss's office.

00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:31.059
Yeah. Living the dream. Living the literal dream.

00:47:32.539 --> 00:47:36.920
I think there are some aspects of the movie where

00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:39.599
the practice of kink is not fully authentic.

00:47:40.460 --> 00:47:43.940
So we do not see the proper consent and negotiation

00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:46.639
done. You have to properly negotiate your scenes

00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:48.360
and your dynamics and you have to have consent

00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.719
to all of the things that happen. If you're not

00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:54.619
doing those things, it's abuse. But you don't

00:47:54.619 --> 00:47:56.519
see that. So there's an element of unreality,

00:47:56.619 --> 00:47:59.599
I suppose, which in this context doesn't detract

00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:01.639
from the authenticity of everything else that

00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:04.059
we saw. No, I agree. And the thing that I did

00:48:04.059 --> 00:48:07.519
think was really authentic was... the way that

00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:10.199
you see her agency expressed. So though, yes,

00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:12.639
we're lacking on the verbal communication, the

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:16.820
negotiation, we see things like when she has

00:48:16.820 --> 00:48:18.880
made a mistake and didn't get the reaction she

00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.619
wanted from it. intentionally doing things to

00:48:21.619 --> 00:48:23.340
draw attention so the one i've mentioned with

00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:26.420
the worm there's a part where he he um notices

00:48:26.420 --> 00:48:28.099
a mistake but doesn't react to it or doesn't

00:48:28.099 --> 00:48:30.219
notice a mistake i forget which but then walks

00:48:30.219 --> 00:48:31.719
out of the room she's in and she starts loudly

00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:33.860
sniffing because he previously told her he doesn't

00:48:33.860 --> 00:48:35.860
like it when she sniffs and kind of snuffles

00:48:35.860 --> 00:48:37.699
her nose all the time she just sits there like

00:48:39.259 --> 00:48:42.800
and what that reminded me of is when i am doing

00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.420
um every evening we do worship where i i'm kissing

00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:47.079
your feet kneeling in front of the mirror kissing

00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.760
your feet and sometimes you put your foot on

00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:51.320
my head or on my back while i'm doing that and

00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.039
i really like that and if it's been a couple

00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:54.599
of days and i haven't had a foot put on me i

00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:56.320
will start like raising my butt up in the air

00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:58.980
and wiggling it so i get stamped on yeah it was

00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:03.000
very very those vibes yeah yeah yes you have

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:09.539
your ways of um seeking attention yeah don't

00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:14.440
you yes mix um you make it sound like i don't

00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:18.300
give you attention no you do i'm just i'm just

00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:22.079
very needy yeah however much attention you give

00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.840
me i will politely request politely request more

00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:30.800
yeah very politely well i've never given you

00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:35.210
an envelope with a worm in it no no From the

00:49:35.210 --> 00:49:37.449
look I'm getting, I think it might not be advisable

00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:40.889
for me to try that. My first response wouldn't

00:49:40.889 --> 00:49:44.530
be to circle it in red pen. No, Mix? No, put

00:49:44.530 --> 00:49:49.449
it on your desk. No, that would not be my first

00:49:49.449 --> 00:49:51.889
response. What would it be, Mix? Well, if I'm

00:49:51.889 --> 00:49:53.369
being honest, I think my first response would

00:49:53.369 --> 00:49:59.309
be, what the fuck is this? What is the deranged

00:49:59.309 --> 00:50:03.900
pig doing now? i think would probably be my genuine

00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:06.840
response to it yeah something i wanted to like

00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:10.579
cautiously talk about is you touched on this

00:50:10.579 --> 00:50:13.119
as well i definitely read both characters as

00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:16.659
neurodivergent and i think lee particularly reads

00:50:16.659 --> 00:50:20.139
as potentially autistic now as you said we can't

00:50:20.139 --> 00:50:22.559
be diagnosing anybody neither of us are qualified

00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.539
to diagnose anybody and also these are fictional

00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:28.579
characters yep but i have looked online to see

00:50:28.579 --> 00:50:31.199
if i was completely alone in thinking this and

00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:33.139
it does seem like a few other people including

00:50:33.139 --> 00:50:36.139
autistic people really is autistic there's certain

00:50:36.139 --> 00:50:38.059
things she does like scripting her conversations

00:50:38.059 --> 00:50:41.960
before she goes into them um a lot of her mannerisms

00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:43.659
and the way that she interacts with other people

00:50:43.659 --> 00:50:46.159
and some of the ways that her vulnerability is

00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.980
expressed are things that some autistic people

00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:50.679
have picked up on as being relatable to them

00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:52.420
so even if the character wasn't intended to be

00:50:52.420 --> 00:50:55.989
autistic yeah it's certain that there are traits

00:50:55.989 --> 00:50:58.269
that people are going to see themselves in, in

00:50:58.269 --> 00:50:59.849
that way. And I thought that was interesting

00:50:59.849 --> 00:51:03.329
because we know that there is a very high amount

00:51:03.329 --> 00:51:05.989
of neurodivergent people in the kink community.

00:51:06.550 --> 00:51:09.969
Yes. You go to a munch and you've got everyone

00:51:09.969 --> 00:51:11.369
sitting around. There's usually someone with

00:51:11.369 --> 00:51:14.070
a box of fidget toys. No one's making eye contact.

00:51:14.510 --> 00:51:16.730
Someone is info dumping in the corner. It's fantastic.

00:51:17.030 --> 00:51:20.809
Yeah, yeah. It is a whole vibe. Yeah. And I feel

00:51:20.809 --> 00:51:22.449
like a lot of the time when kink is presented

00:51:22.449 --> 00:51:26.019
in mainstream media, it's tried because they're

00:51:26.019 --> 00:51:28.440
trying to make it glossy and sexy and appealing

00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.480
to everybody yeah they don't want their characters

00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:33.679
to come across as awkward or having any kind

00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:35.219
of social difficulties or anything like that

00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:38.099
so they don't really represent that where these

00:51:38.099 --> 00:51:40.260
felt like people you would run into at your local

00:51:40.260 --> 00:51:42.679
munch i could 100 see myself sitting down at

00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:45.199
a table at a munch and edward and leah there

00:51:45.610 --> 00:51:48.650
Yeah, I think you're right. Like I said at the

00:51:48.650 --> 00:51:50.630
start, I don't know what the writer's intention

00:51:50.630 --> 00:51:52.789
was for those characters, but you look at both

00:51:52.789 --> 00:51:56.150
of them and you can kind of see that neurodivergence

00:51:56.150 --> 00:52:01.909
in them. He is very particular in a lot of things

00:52:01.909 --> 00:52:04.349
and very focused on a lot of things and has kind

00:52:04.349 --> 00:52:06.929
of his own rituals and stuff, which could read

00:52:06.929 --> 00:52:12.409
as autistic, I suppose. It is just really nice.

00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.719
to see people represented in that way that are

00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:22.880
real, I think. Because you're right, it's like

00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:25.960
the stereotypical dom -de -dom kind of persona,

00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:29.440
very together, very confident, very charming

00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:33.159
and clear and all of that kind of stuff. And

00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:35.860
even the submissives who are almost exclusively

00:52:35.860 --> 00:52:43.550
women in these films. The worst thing about them,

00:52:43.590 --> 00:52:47.230
the worst in very big kind of air quotes, I suppose,

00:52:47.289 --> 00:52:53.070
is that they might be a little bit dowdy. Yeah.

00:52:53.170 --> 00:52:56.429
You know, that mid -movie transformation from

00:52:56.429 --> 00:53:00.889
bookish woman with straight hair and glasses

00:53:00.889 --> 00:53:03.809
and might wear cardigans and stuff like that

00:53:03.809 --> 00:53:08.630
into this submissive sex siren kind of thing.

00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:12.090
That's as deep as it gets. a lot of the time

00:53:12.090 --> 00:53:15.590
yeah not that there is anything wrong with bookish

00:53:15.590 --> 00:53:17.510
women with straight hair who wear glasses and

00:53:17.510 --> 00:53:20.769
wear cardigans like that that's that's a sounds

00:53:20.769 --> 00:53:26.369
really good to me but yeah female submissives

00:53:26.369 --> 00:53:28.150
in these kind of stories tend to be allowed to

00:53:28.150 --> 00:53:30.969
be a little bit shy yeah and maybe not very good

00:53:30.969 --> 00:53:34.389
at chatting to men yeah but other than that pretty

00:53:34.389 --> 00:53:37.269
typical yeah and then the male dominance are

00:53:37.269 --> 00:53:39.860
supposed to really have their shit together And

00:53:39.860 --> 00:53:42.900
be super confident at all times. Yeah. And then

00:53:42.900 --> 00:53:45.440
in secretary, having them both be just pretty

00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:48.900
regular people, little bit quirky. Yeah. Probably

00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:52.539
neurodivergent. Yeah. Definitely awkward. Yeah.

00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:54.800
Neither of them really knowing how to interact

00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:57.199
with each other or really anyone else. Yeah.

00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.739
And really finding a lot of this stuff really

00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:01.900
difficult. Again, just really grounded it in

00:54:01.900 --> 00:54:03.699
the kind of people that you meet in the kink

00:54:03.699 --> 00:54:06.260
community. Yeah. Instead of feeling like, OK,

00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:08.380
but these people are nothing like us. It was

00:54:08.380 --> 00:54:10.619
like these people are exactly like us. Yeah.

00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:15.219
Yeah. Yeah. And that goes back to where we started,

00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:17.860
the relatability of the characters. It was nice

00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:20.079
to see someone that I recognised for myself.

00:54:20.440 --> 00:54:23.340
Yeah. Because I can't stand the kind of people

00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:25.400
that are usually represented in kink movies,

00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.840
if I'm being honest. I think particularly dominance.

00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:31.420
Dominance tend to be done really badly. Yeah.

00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:33.860
Yeah, if Christian Grey turned up at a bunch,

00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:36.519
I would avoid him. Yeah. Because I would just

00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:39.260
think, arsehole. Edward Grey we could hang out

00:54:39.260 --> 00:54:40.960
with. Edward Grey, I'd love to chat to Edward

00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:46.039
Grey. I think he'd be fascinating. Yeah. What

00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:49.099
was it that Mark referred to at the Council of

00:54:49.099 --> 00:54:51.599
Debauchery or something? Oh, it was something

00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.719
like that, yeah. Yeah, he would definitely fit

00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.340
into that. You know, you get the reports from

00:54:56.340 --> 00:54:59.119
the... department of power exchange department

00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:02.579
of degradation and stuff like that he would edward

00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:05.039
would fit in at the council of debauchery i feel

00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.719
yes and i think i mean this is going well outside

00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:09.860
of the topic of let's talk about secretary as

00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:13.739
a movie but it's nice to see something that draws

00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:17.519
attention to how that intersection exists because

00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:20.059
i think a lot of people outside the kink community

00:55:20.059 --> 00:55:22.159
probably have just absolutely no knowledge of

00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:23.400
that it's all of their knowledge is coming from

00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:25.679
the media but then when people do hear about

00:55:26.170 --> 00:55:29.590
autistic people and people with adhd and other

00:55:29.590 --> 00:55:32.849
other neurodivergent people participating in

00:55:32.849 --> 00:55:35.329
kink there's often that instant reaction of ah

00:55:35.329 --> 00:55:37.550
vulnerable people being taken advantage of being

00:55:37.550 --> 00:55:40.050
sucked into something and it actually a lot of

00:55:40.050 --> 00:55:43.010
the time it's more that people who experience

00:55:43.010 --> 00:55:46.039
the world in an atypical way also experienced

00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.960
love and intimacy and romance and sensory connection

00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:53.320
and pain in ways that are not quite aligned with

00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:55.780
neurotypical people as well. And so it makes

00:55:55.780 --> 00:55:57.199
sense that they're going to be seeking something

00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:59.539
from their relationships that you don't find

00:55:59.539 --> 00:56:03.059
on the standard menu. And the movie didn't make

00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:04.980
any commentary on that. It didn't even outright

00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:07.679
say anything about whether the characters were

00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:11.679
neurodivergent or not. But I think having something

00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:13.960
like that visible that at least gives a hint

00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:16.360
at it, a little glimpse at it, could maybe pave

00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:18.599
the way for better representation and better

00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:21.599
understanding of that in the future. Yes. Yeah.

00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:23.800
I mean, given that the movie is 24 years old,

00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:29.000
it didn't. Yet, but it's still influential. I

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.059
don't think we would have Fifty Shades. I mean,

00:56:31.099 --> 00:56:32.820
we probably wouldn't want to have Fifty Shades,

00:56:32.860 --> 00:56:34.300
but I don't think Fifty Shades would exist without

00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:36.820
a secretary. Definitely Baby Girl wouldn't exist

00:56:36.820 --> 00:56:39.949
without a secretary. No. I think it has really

00:56:39.949 --> 00:56:44.150
started to influence things and has continued

00:56:44.150 --> 00:56:46.170
to influence things. And the ripple effect of

00:56:46.170 --> 00:56:48.489
that will go on. So there's still time. That's

00:56:48.489 --> 00:56:50.690
very optimistic of you. Yes, thanks. So we've

00:56:50.690 --> 00:56:53.869
talked a lot about the themes that we really

00:56:53.869 --> 00:56:55.849
liked in the film. But there was a few things

00:56:55.849 --> 00:56:58.630
that I think were fairly small moments in the

00:56:58.630 --> 00:57:01.530
film that we really, really enjoyed. Yes. Why

00:57:01.530 --> 00:57:04.829
don't you start off with one? yeah i mean first

00:57:04.829 --> 00:57:07.429
my absolute favorite bit of this movie and possibly

00:57:07.429 --> 00:57:10.230
any movie ever and i know i referenced this earlier

00:57:10.230 --> 00:57:13.190
on as well is the part where she confronts him

00:57:13.190 --> 00:57:15.469
and says that she wants that relationship with

00:57:15.469 --> 00:57:18.050
him and he says we can't do this 24 hours a day

00:57:18.050 --> 00:57:21.989
seven days a week and she says why not just love

00:57:21.989 --> 00:57:24.989
that because there is this feeling that people

00:57:24.989 --> 00:57:27.349
have both kinky people and non -kinky people

00:57:27.349 --> 00:57:28.730
who look at this stuff and go yeah but that's

00:57:28.730 --> 00:57:30.670
completely unrealistic no one can live that way

00:57:30.670 --> 00:57:35.510
yeah and definitely in my early stages of figuring

00:57:35.510 --> 00:57:38.570
out my kink identity i knew i wanted a power

00:57:38.570 --> 00:57:40.929
exchange relationship but i had those thoughts

00:57:40.929 --> 00:57:42.730
in my head of but obviously you can't go too

00:57:42.730 --> 00:57:44.530
far and obviously you can't give people control

00:57:44.530 --> 00:57:47.929
over this and obviously you can't live like that

00:57:47.929 --> 00:57:51.710
all the time yeah and then having that realization

00:57:51.710 --> 00:57:54.429
but but why not if that's what's authentic to

00:57:54.429 --> 00:57:57.769
me why not yeah and finding that there are people

00:57:57.769 --> 00:58:00.139
who can do that with you who are capable of that

00:58:00.139 --> 00:58:03.760
and want that just as much as you do, is just

00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.739
so fucking cool. And seeing that represented

00:58:06.739 --> 00:58:08.840
is just amazing to me. I just think it's a really

00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.219
powerful moment and something that really sums

00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:14.579
up an important turning point in my life when

00:58:14.579 --> 00:58:17.820
I figured out that I could have this. Yeah. Aww.

00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:23.840
I think so. I think that kind of talks to a really

00:58:23.840 --> 00:58:28.610
big misconception about... about what 24 -7 dynamics

00:58:28.610 --> 00:58:32.570
are in reality and i guess it kind of it comes

00:58:32.570 --> 00:58:35.150
from a misconception about what kink is because

00:58:35.150 --> 00:58:37.329
i read something the other day on on fetlife

00:58:37.329 --> 00:58:39.789
about someone who on this very topic addressing

00:58:39.789 --> 00:58:42.150
that criticism that that question of whether

00:58:42.150 --> 00:58:44.969
or not you can actually have a 24 -7 approach

00:58:44.969 --> 00:58:50.989
to kink and and what she was saying is yes but

00:58:50.989 --> 00:58:53.170
that doesn't mean that we are both wandering

00:58:53.170 --> 00:58:56.110
around the house wearing head -to -toe rubber

00:58:56.110 --> 00:58:58.550
and whipping my partner's balls all the time

00:58:58.550 --> 00:59:02.750
there are levels to this yeah there is subtlety

00:59:02.750 --> 00:59:06.070
to this and and it changes throughout a day it

00:59:06.070 --> 00:59:08.449
changes over time it changes depending on where

00:59:08.449 --> 00:59:10.969
we are and what we're doing and who we're with

00:59:10.969 --> 00:59:14.789
and all of that stuff but it's always there's

00:59:14.789 --> 00:59:17.090
always something present there that kind of brings

00:59:17.090 --> 00:59:20.329
you back into that seven space yeah like it doesn't

00:59:20.329 --> 00:59:25.219
stop at hour 23 you know what day seven yeah

00:59:25.219 --> 00:59:27.800
but it might look different day to day yeah and

00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:29.559
that's how it is for us and i think that's something

00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:32.719
that people sometimes the the questions i get

00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:34.659
on tiktok and stuff people try to get their heads

00:59:34.659 --> 00:59:38.280
around is if we're 24 7 they'll ask so do you

00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.519
ever watch a movie together and do you make jokes

00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:43.480
and do you go for days out and stuff and it's

00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:45.679
like yeah we do all of that stuff yeah the 24

00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:48.059
7 dynamic isn't a barrier to that it's just the

00:59:48.059 --> 00:59:50.519
framework it happens within yeah yeah so there'll

00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:52.360
still be little bits of protocol there you know

00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:54.000
we're watching a movie together i get up off

00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.559
the couch to get a drink and when i come back

00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:57.719
and wait to be invited onto the couch you make

00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:59.139
me kneel on the floor for a couple of minutes

00:59:59.139 --> 01:00:01.880
yeah things like that but none of that detracts

01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:03.300
from the fact that we're cuddling up and watching

01:00:03.300 --> 01:00:05.460
a movie together yeah you'll let me on the couch

01:00:05.460 --> 01:00:07.500
eventually and the cuddles will continue yeah

01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:11.980
it's yeah it's the 24 7 dynamic integrates into

01:00:11.980 --> 01:00:15.300
an ordinary life and you can have both yeah weird

01:00:15.300 --> 01:00:18.369
little aside I don't find it difficult. I don't

01:00:18.369 --> 01:00:22.269
find it challenging in that way. But that rule

01:00:22.269 --> 01:00:25.210
we have about you having to be invited on the

01:00:25.210 --> 01:00:27.769
sofa, part of the reason I tell you to sit so

01:00:27.769 --> 01:00:30.849
much is because if you're on the floor, then

01:00:30.849 --> 01:00:33.570
we're not on the sofa together. Aw. You know?

01:00:34.210 --> 01:00:38.190
Do you remember when we first started out with

01:00:38.190 --> 01:00:40.829
punishments? One of the punishments was that

01:00:40.829 --> 01:00:43.710
you would have furniture privileges removed.

01:00:44.030 --> 01:00:47.960
Yeah. and you broke a rule and the punishment

01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:49.920
that i decided on was that you would you wouldn't

01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:52.239
you would lose your furniture privileges which

01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:54.780
meant you had to sleep on the floor and i think

01:00:54.780 --> 01:00:57.780
i suffered more than you did yeah for that because

01:00:57.780 --> 01:01:01.340
you kind of thought that was quite hot yeah it

01:01:01.340 --> 01:01:03.860
was humanizing and stuff like that and i'm just

01:01:03.860 --> 01:01:06.920
there in bed on like what the fuck do i do now

01:01:08.739 --> 01:01:10.679
Yeah, and I missed cuddling up with you as well.

01:01:10.780 --> 01:01:12.960
But yeah, it did tap into that sort of, yeah,

01:01:13.059 --> 01:01:15.360
this is my place. Yeah. So it felt more like

01:01:15.360 --> 01:01:17.599
play than punishment to me. But it felt like

01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:19.360
a punishment to you. So we scrapped that one.

01:01:19.539 --> 01:01:26.699
Yeah, it did not last long at all. But it's stuff

01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:28.320
like that. It's in the asking, isn't it? It's

01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:30.679
not in the outcome. It's in the asking where

01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:33.340
the dynamic exists. It's like you sit on the

01:01:33.340 --> 01:01:35.980
sofa because I allow it. Yeah. And even if I

01:01:35.980 --> 01:01:38.860
allow it all the time or most of the time. I

01:01:38.860 --> 01:01:41.820
allow it. Yeah. And that's the point. I think

01:01:41.820 --> 01:01:47.440
one of the things that I really enjoyed as a

01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:53.320
dominant and a bit of a sadist was the power

01:01:53.320 --> 01:01:57.579
plays in it and the testing, especially in the

01:01:57.579 --> 01:02:04.260
early parts of the film, where he would use some

01:02:04.260 --> 01:02:07.380
subtle and not so subtle ways of... Exerting

01:02:07.380 --> 01:02:10.440
power and control and testing where she would

01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:14.019
go with it. I just found it really fascinating.

01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:16.860
So I think we talked about it earlier on. The

01:02:16.860 --> 01:02:18.920
inconsistency about how much sugar he liked in

01:02:18.920 --> 01:02:21.679
his coffee. Yes. Or the fact that she couldn't

01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:23.519
get it right. There was either too much or not

01:02:23.519 --> 01:02:28.199
enough in there. There was the really funny scene

01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:32.599
where he says that he loses his notes. And they're

01:02:32.599 --> 01:02:35.579
probably in the garbage. And most people would

01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:37.429
have said... Oh, they're gone then, aren't they?

01:02:37.489 --> 01:02:40.989
But she climbs into the garbage. Yeah. Big, massive

01:02:40.989 --> 01:02:44.070
garbage bin. And she finds the notes. You know,

01:02:44.110 --> 01:02:47.369
it's little things like that that I really enjoyed.

01:02:47.590 --> 01:02:51.449
And it goes back to that authentic deviance.

01:02:51.789 --> 01:02:54.670
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think testing is a really

01:02:54.670 --> 01:02:56.449
good way of describing it because it was very

01:02:56.449 --> 01:02:59.230
much like... You talk about sometimes having

01:02:59.230 --> 01:03:01.469
a mad science approach to kink where you just

01:03:01.469 --> 01:03:04.289
do stuff to see if you can do it. And it felt

01:03:04.289 --> 01:03:06.610
like a psychological version of that at times

01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:10.289
where he was figuring out at what point she would

01:03:10.289 --> 01:03:13.730
push back if she ever would. And obviously she

01:03:13.730 --> 01:03:19.150
didn't. And seeing him thrive off that submission

01:03:19.150 --> 01:03:22.090
that she was leaning further and further into

01:03:22.090 --> 01:03:24.969
the way that she would just debase herself for

01:03:24.969 --> 01:03:27.480
him. Yeah. And the way that they both sort of

01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.099
fed off each other's energy in that. Yeah. Was

01:03:30.099 --> 01:03:32.440
really... Yeah. Again, I keep saying it, but

01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:35.059
it feels really real. It feels like a lot of

01:03:35.059 --> 01:03:38.940
how I like Kink to feel. Yeah. I really liked...

01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:40.400
A lot of mine seemed to come from the end of

01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.079
the movie. I like the whole thing, but there's

01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:44.960
just some of the dialogue towards the end of

01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:48.500
the movie is just such good ways of summing up

01:03:48.500 --> 01:03:51.300
how Kink is. So there's a part where she's sitting

01:03:51.300 --> 01:03:54.099
at the desk at the end and... Her fiance comes

01:03:54.099 --> 01:03:56.500
to try to talk her out of it and says, why won't

01:03:56.500 --> 01:03:59.000
you move your hands? And her response is because

01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:01.480
I don't want to, which I love because they could

01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:03.139
have easily written that line as I've been told

01:04:03.139 --> 01:04:06.400
not to or I'm not allowed to. But the actual

01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:09.260
answer is because she doesn't want to. She's

01:04:09.260 --> 01:04:11.119
choosing to submit. She's choosing to follow

01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:13.079
the orders that she's been given. She's choosing

01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:15.900
the life that she is there proving her loyalty

01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:19.880
to. And that reminder that submission is a choice.

01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.619
I don't like the sort of oversimplification that

01:04:22.619 --> 01:04:24.820
people say of, oh, the submissive is the one

01:04:24.820 --> 01:04:26.659
with the real power. Because in a healthy dynamic,

01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:29.460
both people have the real power to create it

01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:32.019
together and negotiate it together and to stop

01:04:32.019 --> 01:04:36.349
it together. But... The other misconception is

01:04:36.349 --> 01:04:38.389
that submissives have no power and are just passive,

01:04:38.429 --> 01:04:40.289
weak -willed people who are being dragged along

01:04:40.289 --> 01:04:42.530
by someone who's taking advantage of them. And

01:04:42.530 --> 01:04:44.329
actually saying, no, she is submitting because

01:04:44.329 --> 01:04:47.789
she chooses to. And she is doing this weird thing

01:04:47.789 --> 01:04:49.710
that no one understands because she chooses to

01:04:49.710 --> 01:04:52.150
and she wants to. I really like that. It just

01:04:52.150 --> 01:04:54.989
kind of captured the whole movie. Yeah, that

01:04:54.989 --> 01:04:58.369
was really nice. A really nice moment in the

01:04:58.369 --> 01:05:00.349
movie. And there was a lot in that sort of montage

01:05:00.349 --> 01:05:02.530
at the end. It really showed the whole range

01:05:02.530 --> 01:05:05.110
of reactions you get. to being in this kind of

01:05:05.110 --> 01:05:07.889
relationship if you're open about it or if you

01:05:07.889 --> 01:05:10.730
sort of become exposed and people find out about

01:05:10.730 --> 01:05:13.030
it where there were people who were sort of supportive

01:05:13.030 --> 01:05:15.710
and understanding and then there was the usual

01:05:15.710 --> 01:05:18.889
criticisms like more or less why can't you just

01:05:18.889 --> 01:05:21.489
be normal I think the actual line was there are

01:05:21.489 --> 01:05:23.550
other ways to show your devotion more conventional

01:05:23.550 --> 01:05:26.650
ways there was the woman who came in with a big

01:05:26.650 --> 01:05:29.230
stack of feminist literature and was like you

01:05:29.230 --> 01:05:33.289
need to read this and understand and that sort

01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:35.780
of Those interesting things where you've got

01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:38.460
on one side the sort of conservative view of

01:05:38.460 --> 01:05:40.119
why can't you just be normal and conventional

01:05:40.119 --> 01:05:42.400
and fit in with everyone else. And on the other

01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:45.599
side, be like, you need to be more progressive

01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:48.079
and you need to be more proud of being a strong,

01:05:48.099 --> 01:05:50.559
independent woman. And if you're not living up

01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:53.119
to these ideals, you're failing. So you're failing

01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:55.179
on two counts opposite ends of the spectrum of

01:05:55.179 --> 01:05:56.760
each other. Maybe that means you're not failing

01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:59.460
at all. Yeah, it was clever because it was subtle

01:05:59.460 --> 01:06:01.059
and it was quick. You know, you blink and you

01:06:01.059 --> 01:06:02.940
miss it. That's there's a lot going on in that

01:06:02.940 --> 01:06:07.590
scene. But just having all of the noise of the

01:06:07.590 --> 01:06:10.489
world around you telling you, don't let someone

01:06:10.489 --> 01:06:12.329
else tell you what to do, let us tell you what

01:06:12.329 --> 01:06:14.849
to do. And just sitting there throughout it with

01:06:14.849 --> 01:06:16.570
your feet on the floor and your hands on the

01:06:16.570 --> 01:06:24.650
desk is sometimes how my life feels. Yeah, I

01:06:24.650 --> 01:06:29.329
think that's fair. I think that's fair. Yours

01:06:29.329 --> 01:06:32.719
are much deeper than mine. Mine were just fun

01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:35.119
bits that I saw. I have seen it a lot of times

01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:39.940
though, Max. Yeah, true, true. I think there

01:06:39.940 --> 01:06:45.059
was one bit that I guess I related to less directly,

01:06:45.179 --> 01:06:49.619
but I understand it, was that period after Edward

01:06:49.619 --> 01:06:53.079
pulled away completely and then she set about

01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:55.960
kind of educating herself and trying to find

01:06:55.960 --> 01:07:00.019
other people. And I really liked that it goes

01:07:00.019 --> 01:07:02.619
back to agency and it goes back to the desire

01:07:02.619 --> 01:07:07.900
and the need of the submissive as being an active

01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:10.699
participant in this. Because she was educating

01:07:10.699 --> 01:07:12.420
herself. She was reading about it and she was

01:07:12.420 --> 01:07:14.880
learning about it. But she was also trying to

01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:18.440
find people. Yeah. And it was just that kind

01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:23.880
of slightly heartbreaking. comparison between

01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.280
the two where she's really keen and really excited

01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.559
and trying to learn as much as she can and then

01:07:29.559 --> 01:07:31.519
just being a bit disappointed by the people that

01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:33.820
she meets who aren't edward yeah i think they

01:07:33.820 --> 01:07:36.059
show three people don't they video makes yeah

01:07:36.059 --> 01:07:39.559
none of them are the finest examples of kinky

01:07:39.559 --> 01:07:41.940
people no you know i think one of them she says

01:07:41.940 --> 01:07:44.000
pinched her nipples before they even got in the

01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:47.320
car yeah so in a movie that doesn't show explicit

01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:53.929
consent and negotiation even less so um there

01:07:53.929 --> 01:07:57.289
was the guy who she was throwing tomatoes at

01:07:57.289 --> 01:08:00.170
yes he wanted her to throw tomatoes at him while

01:08:00.170 --> 01:08:04.250
he was chained to a lit grill yeah which in itself

01:08:04.250 --> 01:08:08.730
valid valid like if that's how he gets off then

01:08:08.730 --> 01:08:10.809
then amazing but it wasn't satisfying for her

01:08:10.809 --> 01:08:13.610
no um and then there was who was the third guy

01:08:13.610 --> 01:08:16.010
he wanted her to piss on his porch mix and then

01:08:16.010 --> 01:08:17.869
when she said she didn't want to do that he said

01:08:17.869 --> 01:08:19.590
i thought you were a masochist that's it yeah

01:08:19.590 --> 01:08:24.369
that was it So just like instantly relatable,

01:08:24.529 --> 01:08:29.909
bad example, bad experiences, I suppose, of when

01:08:29.909 --> 01:08:32.270
you've had something that is really, really positive

01:08:32.270 --> 01:08:35.109
and then going out to find similar things and

01:08:35.109 --> 01:08:37.869
being a bit disappointed. Yeah, that was my fear

01:08:37.869 --> 01:08:40.210
after my last breakup. Like literally, I thought

01:08:40.210 --> 01:08:42.569
I was going to end up meeting tomato guy. And

01:08:42.569 --> 01:08:44.369
that's not what happened. I played with a couple

01:08:44.369 --> 01:08:46.750
of very nice people and then I met you. But there

01:08:46.750 --> 01:08:49.170
is that fear when you found really high compatibility

01:08:49.170 --> 01:08:53.140
with someone. That sounds awful. I played with

01:08:53.140 --> 01:08:55.020
a couple of really nice people and then I met

01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:58.960
you. No, I meant, and then even better, I met

01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:02.720
you. A couple of nice people who I played with

01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:04.800
and had a good time with, but didn't look for

01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:07.319
a relationship with. And then I met the love

01:09:07.319 --> 01:09:11.260
of my life. If you want to choose to take it

01:09:11.260 --> 01:09:17.600
as something negative, that's on you. Two nice

01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:25.420
people and you. I jest, of course. I am merely

01:09:25.420 --> 01:09:30.680
teasing. Have you got any more? I have a whole...

01:09:30.890 --> 01:09:34.149
Big ass paragraph mix. But I'm scared if I try

01:09:34.149 --> 01:09:35.770
to read this quote out loud, I might make myself

01:09:35.770 --> 01:09:38.350
cry because it is my favourite. So I don't have

01:09:38.350 --> 01:09:40.609
a lot to say about this. I just love this whole

01:09:40.609 --> 01:09:43.029
chunk from the end of the movie as well. She

01:09:43.029 --> 01:09:45.329
says, in one way or another, I've always suffered.

01:09:45.930 --> 01:09:49.449
I'm going to cry for fuck's sake. Do you want

01:09:49.449 --> 01:09:51.829
me to read it? I will try once more and then

01:09:51.829 --> 01:09:54.689
if not, then yes, you mix. She says, in one way

01:09:54.689 --> 01:09:56.989
or another, I've always suffered. Fuck's sake.

01:09:57.950 --> 01:09:59.949
Okay, so Mix is going to read this because I

01:09:59.949 --> 01:10:04.390
can't get through it without crying. Good grief.

01:10:05.149 --> 01:10:12.989
I have to be stoic now. Okay. In one way or another,

01:10:13.130 --> 01:10:17.149
I've always suffered. I didn't know why exactly,

01:10:17.350 --> 01:10:20.029
but I do know that I'm not so scared of suffering

01:10:20.029 --> 01:10:22.869
now. I feel more than I've ever felt, and I've

01:10:22.869 --> 01:10:25.489
found someone to feel with, to play with. to

01:10:25.489 --> 01:10:28.050
love in a way that feels right for me i hope

01:10:28.050 --> 01:10:30.890
he knows that i can see that he suffers too and

01:10:30.890 --> 01:10:37.409
i want to love him oh that is the most me thing

01:10:37.409 --> 01:10:39.649
in the whole movie and it makes me very soft

01:10:39.649 --> 01:10:43.609
yes yeah this really sums up how my submission

01:10:43.609 --> 01:10:47.590
feels really specifically that idea of kind of

01:10:47.590 --> 01:10:51.140
finding meaning in pain but also feeling things

01:10:51.140 --> 01:10:53.880
intensely in a trusted space as you can tell

01:10:53.880 --> 01:10:55.899
from the fact that I cannot read out a movie

01:10:55.899 --> 01:10:58.460
quote without crying I feel my feelings really

01:10:58.460 --> 01:11:00.939
hard my emotions are really close to the surface

01:11:00.939 --> 01:11:03.119
like I cry at a lot of the music I like I cry

01:11:03.119 --> 01:11:05.279
at a lot of movies I've cried at every season

01:11:05.279 --> 01:11:07.039
so far of Bridgerton that we've been watching

01:11:07.039 --> 01:11:11.779
yes I am soft um and a lot of the time I think

01:11:11.779 --> 01:11:14.899
that can feel like a vulnerability and like a

01:11:14.899 --> 01:11:18.039
weakness and in submission that feels like a

01:11:18.039 --> 01:11:20.479
space to really feel all that stuff as intensely

01:11:20.479 --> 01:11:22.640
as i feel it and that is celebrated and wanted

01:11:22.640 --> 01:11:25.579
yeah because it's necessary i think to do this

01:11:25.579 --> 01:11:28.000
stuff you have to let your emotions out especially

01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:30.000
on the submissive side because there's so much

01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:33.199
intense feeling in it and how you respond to

01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:35.399
that is the communication a lot of the time yeah

01:11:35.399 --> 01:11:39.359
um the thing that really drew me into kink was

01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:42.140
having that permission to feel things intensely

01:11:42.140 --> 01:11:45.779
and be messy and cry and scream and do all of

01:11:45.779 --> 01:11:48.560
that stuff and not have it be seen as embarrassing

01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:50.859
or weak or uncomfortable or the thing that people

01:11:50.859 --> 01:11:52.600
would look away from but actually a thing that

01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:58.220
attracted people to me um yeah that really feels

01:11:58.220 --> 01:12:01.930
very relatable to me as a an explanation of why

01:12:01.930 --> 01:12:04.630
we do the things that we do and it also acknowledges

01:12:04.630 --> 01:12:07.069
submission as a expression of love and a form

01:12:07.069 --> 01:12:10.189
of love as well this isn't just a kinky relationship

01:12:10.189 --> 01:12:12.489
that is also a loving relationship it isn't a

01:12:12.489 --> 01:12:15.069
dynamic that has a romantic relationship running

01:12:15.069 --> 01:12:18.609
along with it it is two people who the only way

01:12:18.609 --> 01:12:20.130
that they know how to love is through dominance

01:12:20.130 --> 01:12:22.590
and submission yeah figuring that out together

01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:26.659
And that has been my journey in kink very much,

01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:28.939
where I didn't really know what love felt like

01:12:28.939 --> 01:12:31.079
until I started expressing it through submission.

01:12:31.539 --> 01:12:33.460
And it's like, oh, that's the thing that's been

01:12:33.460 --> 01:12:37.380
missing. So yeah, that quote makes me very emotional

01:12:37.380 --> 01:12:40.079
every single time. And I, as it turns out, cannot

01:12:40.079 --> 01:12:44.159
read it out loud. But it's very sweet. But luckily

01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:46.859
I have you here to do things like that for me

01:12:46.859 --> 01:12:49.560
when I'm a mess. Yeah. Cold -hearted bastard

01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:51.920
who's completely unfeeling and unaffected by

01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:55.739
that. By that quote. Yeah, but you've cried on

01:12:55.739 --> 01:12:57.199
the podcast before and I'm sure I'll get you

01:12:57.199 --> 01:12:59.680
again sometime. True. I'll just get you to read

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:04.560
out one of my blog posts. Oh God. No. I'm sure

01:13:04.560 --> 01:13:06.039
it's the last three in a row have made you cry.

01:13:06.100 --> 01:13:10.880
Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. But

01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:13.340
I too have cried at Bridgerton. Yes. But for

01:13:13.340 --> 01:13:15.300
different things. Yes. We cry at different things,

01:13:15.300 --> 01:13:18.319
don't we? Yeah. You cry when the stupid people

01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:24.220
kiss. Yes. And I cry when Queen Charlotte worries

01:13:24.220 --> 01:13:25.819
about what she's going to do when her husband

01:13:25.819 --> 01:13:29.699
dies. Which is something that does upset me quite

01:13:29.699 --> 01:13:35.039
a lot. Yeah. Quite existential. But yeah, both

01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:37.260
a little bit soft. We are. Around different things.

01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:41.020
Yeah. We need to watch something low stakes like

01:13:41.020 --> 01:13:43.319
the baseball episode of Star Trek. Send us your

01:13:43.319 --> 01:13:45.420
recommendations for low stakes Star Trek episodes.

01:13:45.739 --> 01:13:47.699
And we'll see which of us cries at one first.

01:13:53.769 --> 01:13:56.170
The problem with some of the low -stakes Star

01:13:56.170 --> 01:13:57.609
Trek episodes is that they're a bit rubbish.

01:13:58.250 --> 01:14:01.850
They can be. Yeah. Apart from the baseball bat.

01:14:01.970 --> 01:14:04.729
Not the baseball bat one. The baseball one. The

01:14:04.729 --> 01:14:08.189
baseball one. Yeah. The baseball bat episode

01:14:08.189 --> 01:14:15.069
is coming up in two weeks. Nice. Nice bit of

01:14:15.069 --> 01:14:22.460
promo. Anyway. Anyway, any last thoughts on Secretary

01:14:22.460 --> 01:14:24.600
Mix? I really like this one, if it wasn't obvious.

01:14:24.899 --> 01:14:28.100
Yeah, it's a really good film. I would encourage

01:14:28.100 --> 01:14:31.579
people to watch it. Have an open mind when you

01:14:31.579 --> 01:14:34.260
watch it. It's a well -made movie as well, I

01:14:34.260 --> 01:14:39.239
think. Like, well -directed, well -shot, well

01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:43.340
-thought -through kind of movie as well. And

01:14:43.340 --> 01:14:47.119
finally, we've watched a film that involves kink

01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:50.510
and BDSM that we are... generally positive about

01:14:50.510 --> 01:14:55.310
yeah like majority positive about yeah long may

01:14:55.310 --> 01:14:58.569
that continue my only negative thing i want to

01:14:58.569 --> 01:15:00.989
say is that nothing that has come out since 2002

01:15:00.989 --> 01:15:04.949
has come anywhere near close no and i keep thinking

01:15:04.949 --> 01:15:06.810
i thought baby girl was going to be the new secretary

01:15:06.810 --> 01:15:08.770
i thought pillion was going to be the new secretary

01:15:08.770 --> 01:15:12.550
yeah and we're not we're not beating it no on

01:15:12.550 --> 01:15:14.649
a much broader point i have a friend who said

01:15:14.649 --> 01:15:17.409
you know just generally movies have got a bit

01:15:18.650 --> 01:15:22.970
less good since the 2000s no i think that is

01:15:22.970 --> 01:15:25.170
a an old person gripe i don't think that's true

01:15:25.170 --> 01:15:27.489
at all i think movies overall are a lot better

01:15:27.489 --> 01:15:29.649
over the last 10 -15 years she is younger than

01:15:29.649 --> 01:15:32.369
both of us i've just realized who it would be

01:15:32.369 --> 01:15:40.649
as well she is yeah quite some way i think this

01:15:40.649 --> 01:15:42.470
year's batch of oscar nominations are pretty

01:15:42.470 --> 01:15:45.689
disappointing though that's my hot take oh god

01:15:45.689 --> 01:15:48.020
yeah If Sinners wins everything, I'll be happy.

01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:51.439
And K -pop Demon Hunters, I wouldn't be too mad

01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:54.699
about winning some things. Yeah. But that's it.

01:15:55.340 --> 01:15:58.779
There you go. There are our Oscar tips. If Sinners

01:15:58.779 --> 01:16:00.140
doesn't win everything, we're going to be mad

01:16:00.140 --> 01:16:05.500
about it. Yep. Top and bottom of it. And K -pop

01:16:05.500 --> 01:16:08.680
Demon Hunters, best anime. Yes. And best song,

01:16:08.779 --> 01:16:12.100
probably. This is the thing that's going to be

01:16:12.100 --> 01:16:14.770
difficult for me. both Sinners and K -Pop Demon

01:16:14.770 --> 01:16:16.949
Hunters should win Best Original Song, though

01:16:16.949 --> 01:16:18.810
in my opinion, neither of them for the song they're

01:16:18.810 --> 01:16:22.390
nominated for. Ooh, spicy hot take. It should

01:16:22.390 --> 01:16:26.770
be between Pale Pale Moon and... From Sinners.

01:16:26.890 --> 01:16:29.829
From Sinners, yes. And What It Sounds Like from

01:16:29.829 --> 01:16:35.090
K -Pop Demon Hunters. And it is golden from K

01:16:35.090 --> 01:16:38.189
-Pop and... I Lied To You from Sinners. Which

01:16:38.189 --> 01:16:42.399
are also both excellent. I Light You is the one

01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:48.640
with all of the past and future ancestors, isn't

01:16:48.640 --> 01:16:51.579
it? Yes, Mix. So you can see why that's been

01:16:51.579 --> 01:16:53.680
nominated, but only if you watch it with that

01:16:53.680 --> 01:16:57.439
scene. Yeah, that's the thing. As a song in the

01:16:57.439 --> 01:17:00.640
movie, it's the best scene. As a song to listen

01:17:00.640 --> 01:17:02.819
to, I think Pale Pale Moon is better. And it's

01:17:02.819 --> 01:17:05.319
supposed to be best original song, not best scene

01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:11.050
with an original song in it. Yeah, Academy. I

01:17:11.050 --> 01:17:14.229
still don't know which one I would want to win

01:17:14.229 --> 01:17:17.810
if it was those two nominated. I will go for

01:17:17.810 --> 01:17:20.630
Sinners every time. That's fair. K -pop Demon

01:17:20.630 --> 01:17:27.949
Hunters was fun and I enjoyed it. But Sinners

01:17:27.949 --> 01:17:30.189
was brilliant. Both of those songs are brilliant.

01:17:30.829 --> 01:17:33.810
Yeah, but in my brain I made all of K -pop Demon

01:17:33.810 --> 01:17:40.149
Hunters about my trauma mix. As I tend to do.

01:17:40.820 --> 01:17:45.859
It's all about you. Yeah. That's valid. Yeah.

01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:50.640
I can see that. That's fair. Anyway, we are rambling

01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:52.159
and this is going to end up just becoming a movies

01:17:52.159 --> 01:17:53.800
podcast that has nothing to do with kink if we

01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:56.439
don't stop soon. Okay. We're going to wrap up

01:17:56.439 --> 01:17:58.800
there. Thanks everyone for listening. Bye. Bye.

01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:20.220
See you next time.