WEBVTT

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Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast

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where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizal,

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a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who

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likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And

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I'm S, Carizal's dominant who knows how to deliver

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all of the above. And we're back to kinky movies

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because we absolutely will disrupt our recording

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schedule for Men in Leather and Real Doms is

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still playing sad piano. We are, of course, talking

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about pillion. Eat your heart out, Barry Norman.

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so pillion we went to see that oh how long ago

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was it now five days ago something like that

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and i feel like i there's a part of me that wished

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we could just come home and record straight away

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but also i kind of wanted to let it sit and let

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my feelings process because i think it's fair

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to say that we both had some pretty mixed feelings

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about this movie yes we did some very positives

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and some very negatives yeah about it it was

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it was quite a confusing experience and i think

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unfortunately i thought that as i let myself

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sit with it and let some of my disappointment

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from my expectations not being met fade i was

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thinking i would get more positive about it over

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time but i think the more i sit with it the less

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i like it unfortunately so i'm gonna try not

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to tear it to pieces and try to oh no try to

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still be fair because there was a lot that i

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liked about it there was a lot that was done

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really well yeah yeah true So we should do some

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spoilers. No, spoiler warnings. Yes, spoiler

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warnings before the spoilers mix. Yes, warning

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first. Yes. Then the spoiler. Yeah, that's the

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smart way of doing it. So we are talking about

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a film which is still out in cinemas. Yeah. So

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people may not have seen it. We are going to

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talk in detail about the plot. We are, including

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the ending. Including the ending. And that's

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going to happen real quick. I'm going to be doing

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a summary of the movie really soon. So if you're

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thinking, oh, I'm not sure if I want the spoilers.

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Pause and think it over. Yeah, yeah. So if you

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haven't seen the film and you don't want it to

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be ruined for you by our biased opinions, maybe

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this is not the time to be listening to this

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episode. Yes, come back to us later. Come back

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to us when you've seen it and then tell us how

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much you agree with us because clearly we're

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right. The other thing... absolutely your bit

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you are stealing my bit that's okay mix i'll

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steal it yeah so the other thing we wanted to

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mention is that we are aware that this movie

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is based on a book called box hill neither of

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us have read the book and we're talking about

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the movie very much as its own thing um i'm aware

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there's some things that they changed from the

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book and some things that they kept quite close

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to the book but i don't know that the ins and

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outs of that and i think when talking about a

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movie it's it's always good to treat it as its

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own thing anyway because the choice in what to

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adapt and how to adapt it is just as interesting

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as the choices that were made in the source material

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so we're looking at what that end result was

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yes it's very well put so i think you're going

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to talk us through the plot aren't you you're

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going to spoil the entire movie in the first

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like three i am because i thought you were about

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to steal my bit again then no no i was going

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to come for you I would like to see you try.

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So Pillion opens up by introducing us to Colin,

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who is a young, sexually inexperienced, I think

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probably romantically inexperienced as well,

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gay man. He works as a traffic enforcement officer.

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So he's going around giving parking fines to

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people and getting yelled at and called a bastard

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and a cunt and various such things on a daily

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basis. By the characters in the film, not by

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us. Not by us. We have no opinion on traffic

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enforcement. Nope. I feel like you probably have

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had times in your life where you've had some

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opinions about traffic enforcement. I've never

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had a parking ticket. Have you not, Mix? In my

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entire life, no, because I pay for parking. Amazing.

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Just as a complete aside, nothing to do with

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the film. I don't understand all of the shit

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that traffic wardens and traffic enforcement

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officers get. They are doing their job. And if

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you are parked somewhere where you are not supposed

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to be parked, that's going to happen. There are

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far worse jobs you could be doing. than putting

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a 30 quid ticket on someone's windscreen. I'm

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sitting here waiting for you to go, there's far

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worse jobs you could be doing, like insurance

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underwriting. No, I wasn't going to do that.

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I wasn't going to do that. I might have been

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thinking it, but I wasn't going to say it. I

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am publicly supportive of my partner. But Colin

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also sings. He is in a barbershop quartet with

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his dad and two other people who we never learn

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anything about. Never really get to know each

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other. And sings really well as well. Yeah, lovely

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voice. He's very good. Really confident. It's

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nice. We will get into this as we get into what

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we liked about the movie, but I did like seeing

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a submissive with a little bit of confidence

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to them. Yeah. Because we don't always get that.

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But his parents are really supportive of him

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being gay and his mum particularly wants to set

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him up with a nice man and attempts to set him

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up with a nice man who he briefly goes on a date

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with, but then becomes distracted by a very good

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looking biker wearing lots of leather who asks

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him to come and suck his dick behind a Primark.

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And he does. And he does. Which I think was a

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completely reasonable and valid choice and one

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I would also make every day of the week. Yeah.

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If Alexander Skarsgård wearing leather came up

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to you and left you a little card and said, meet

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me behind Primark at five o 'clock tomorrow,

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you would have gone. Yeah, but also it doesn't

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have to be Alexander Skarsgård. My standards

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are not that high. I mean, yeah, to be fair,

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I would have as well. We might have had a clash

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of expectations. Yes. So very shortly after that,

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things escalate and they jump into a 24 -7 power

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exchange relationship. We don't see that negotiated

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at any point or even really talked about. And

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at least my reading of the film was that they

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never really did talk about it. Just Ray, who

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we learn his name after the blowjob has happened,

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along with Colin, who didn't know it before that

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point either. Ray set some expectations for Colin.

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puts him to work gives him orders and that's

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kind of the extent of the communication yeah

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uh but colin is definitely drawn to that maybe

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has some reservations and some discomfort around

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elements of how it's being delivered but definitely

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feels that the role is a fit for him And they

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fall into a routine of that with a lot of service,

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very visible differences of power and hierarchy.

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So Colin being expected to sleep on the floor

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rather than in the bed with Ray. Ray's dog being

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given a place on the couch while they're eating

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and Colin being expected to stand behind the

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couch while he eats. Colin's life, at least from

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a barrel side perspective, seems to change quite

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drastically from this relationship with his appearance

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changing with the people he's spending his time

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with. He becomes very drawn into this lifestyle

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and Ray and the people that Ray surrounds himself

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with, which is a group of other gay bikers who

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we see quite a lot of kind of in the background

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of their relationship. Colin's parents are happy

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initially that he's met someone, but his mum

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particularly starts to have some reservations

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about how unusual the relationship seems. She

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really wants to meet Ray, who's... Who's initially

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very reluctant, but does eventually agree to

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meet Colin's parents. And it doesn't go over

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particularly well with Colin's mum more than

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anything. She's not happy with the way that Ray

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speaks to and about her son and has a lot of

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concerns there. But Colin and Ray's relationship

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continues with all the same issues with... quite

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a lot of coldness and not very good communication.

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Colin's mum sadly passes away. She's been through

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cancer treatment throughout the movie and dies

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during it. And that seems to bring out a little

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bit more care and affection from Ray briefly,

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where Colin is a really emotional mess over it,

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looking for some support and comfort. And Ray

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softens a little bit towards him. But that then

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opens the door for Colin to start to ask for

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more of that, looking for more intimacy, more

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affection and actually some time off from the

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dynamic, which Ray isn't willing to give him.

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But after Colin throws the best brat out I have

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ever seen with full on protest disobedience,

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Ray then says they will take a day off together.

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That's the only time in the movie where we really

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see. properly sustained warmth and affection

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between the two of them. We see Ray talking more

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than he has through the rest of the movie. Seems

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to be going great. They kiss and then Ray ghosts.

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He disappears. Colin has no idea where he's gone.

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The other bikers either don't know or don't want

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to tell Colin. And Colin is left to deal with

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that. After some time of being driven around

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by his dad trying to figure out where Ray is,

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Colin eventually accepts what's happened, grieves

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the relationship and starts looking for something

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new. Having figured out what he wants, set some

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boundaries that he won't cut his hair for anybody

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and he wants one day off a week. Non -negotiable.

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And the movie ends with him meeting someone and

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that being potentially the start of something

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new. Yeah. Yep. The end. The end. That was a

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really good synopsis. Thank you. I managed to

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get not too distracted by the thought of sucking

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dick behind a Primark. No. Well done. Well done.

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I know that is a difficult point. But you're

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right about the Brattel. It was amazing. He stole

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the man's motorbike and went on a joyride with

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it. We assume, having learned how to ride a bike.

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Yeah, we never saw him learn how to ride a bike,

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so that's slightly concerning. I enjoyed the

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bit where he was trying creeping into the bed

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from various different angles. Yes. That was

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entertaining. Yeah, that was true. So yeah, that's

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the plot of the movie. I think we can't really

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talk about a kinky movie without talking about

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the usual tropes that you see. Yeah. In a kinky

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movie. And they were rife in this one. And they

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were rife in this one. And I think I've kind

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of softened on it a little bit. I was a little

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bit annoyed about it when I came out of it. Because

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Colin is portrayed as the kind of the stereotypical

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submissive person in a film like this. He's very

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shy, very reserved, lives with his mum and dad,

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doesn't get out and about a lot. And just, I'm

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going to say, generally seems a bit useless.

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I would say, yeah, when it comes to relationships

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anyway, he's obviously struggling to find his

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feet with that. Yeah, yeah. And then Ray is portrayed

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like every stereotypical Tumblr dom you've ever

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seen in your life. Very tall, very attractive,

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very strong. Doesn't really communicate beyond

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one or two syllable grunt in the general direction

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of the submissive. Seems to take himself very

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seriously. for the most part, I think. Yeah.

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And that sort of thing always, it just annoys

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me, I think especially for the Dom, because I

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haven't watched a lot of movies that have kink

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as one of the central themes. But I have seen

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some, and I struggle to relate to any of them.

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Yeah. Because that's not how I see myself, that's

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not how I think about what a dominant person

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looks like. I completely agree. Like, I see none

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of you in Ray. And there was more in Colin that

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I could relate to for sure. It still does rely

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on those stereotypes, like the fact that he's

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very sexually inexperienced and struggling to

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connect with people to date and things like that.

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It does feel a bit lazy and it does sort of set

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it up as this is a person who is directionless

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and needs leadership rather than someone's life

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just being improved by a dominant. It's like

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actually they're going to fail without one is

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the sort of implication. despite that i felt

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like colin had more depth than you sometimes

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get from submissive characters and particularly

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there were some choices there to try to subvert

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some of that with the job that he does with with

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him being a singer those are things two things

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that take a lot of confidence like i don't think

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i could get up in front of people and sing like

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that i don't think i could do the job that colin

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does it would stress me yeah so that to me gave

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him a little bit more complexity than than we

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sometimes get and showed that actually like yeah

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he's got his shit together He needs to find a

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boyfriend, but he's got his shit together. Yeah,

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yeah. So, yeah, I liked Colin as a character

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more than I liked Ray. Not just because Colin's

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more likeable than Ray, but because Colin had

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more to him. And he's the point of view character,

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so you expect to get a bit more depth than you

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do from Ray, who we're seeing from Colin's perspective.

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And he's not letting Colin in, so he's not letting

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us in. But he did feel very much like a cardboard

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cutout of exactly what people expect a dominant

00:12:26.809 --> 00:12:29.360
to be. Yeah. Like some of the people who, when

00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:30.919
we first started our podcast, I was getting quite

00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:32.259
a lot of comments from people being like, I'm

00:12:32.259 --> 00:12:34.980
really surprised that I like your partner because

00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:37.740
I was expecting them to be like shouting at you

00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:39.720
and barking orders and being really arrogant

00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.720
and mean and stuff. And like none of those comments

00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.120
offended either of us. I think we were both really

00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.240
happy that we were able to sort of beat that

00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:49.039
stereotype and show people another perspective.

00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:53.600
Yeah. But it's frustrating to see a movie reinforcing

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.419
that and telling people that's what they should

00:12:55.419 --> 00:12:58.250
expect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's something

00:12:58.250 --> 00:13:01.350
we come back to every now and again when we do

00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:06.169
these, isn't it? If somebody walked into a munch

00:13:06.169 --> 00:13:09.970
acting the way that Ray did in that pub, almost

00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:11.590
everybody there would look at me, who's this

00:13:11.590 --> 00:13:15.710
dickhead? Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's not how

00:13:15.710 --> 00:13:20.409
you behave. Yeah. That's not how dominants behave,

00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:23.429
typically. So, yeah, it's just weird to see that

00:13:23.429 --> 00:13:27.129
stereotype again. Disappointing to see that stereotype

00:13:27.129 --> 00:13:31.389
again, I think. Yeah. Although saying that, you're

00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:34.250
absolutely right about Colin. You know, not the

00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:36.429
very, very stereotypical submitted. There's a

00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:38.129
lot of that there, but there are other things

00:13:38.129 --> 00:13:40.970
about him which are there. And to be fair to

00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:46.830
Ray, there were moments of levity. Yeah. Throughout

00:13:46.830 --> 00:13:49.230
the movie, you know, there was the odd bit where

00:13:49.230 --> 00:13:51.990
you could see before it kind of got closed up

00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:54.769
again. yeah which i don't think fully did the

00:13:54.769 --> 00:13:57.070
job in the same way that having colin be a slightly

00:13:57.070 --> 00:13:59.909
more rounded character did but you could you

00:13:59.909 --> 00:14:02.649
could kind of see it which was just as frustrating

00:14:02.649 --> 00:14:04.629
in some ways because it's like no let's see more

00:14:04.629 --> 00:14:09.210
of that yeah let's let's let's know a little

00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:12.740
bit more about ray yeah and it felt like too

00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.919
much of a shorthand way to tell the story of

00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.500
some dominance can be toxic push boundaries take

00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:20.720
advantage of newbies all of this stuff like if

00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.899
this movie was setting out to represent how a

00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:26.679
new submissive can be taken advantage of do it

00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.559
in a way that is not so reliant on such a two

00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:32.639
-dimensional character like because we've all

00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:37.289
met dominants who are are a risk to people we've

00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:39.970
all met people who have been abused or taken

00:14:39.970 --> 00:14:42.330
advantage of by a more experienced person in

00:14:42.330 --> 00:14:44.970
king and the people who do these things don't

00:14:44.970 --> 00:14:48.950
generally act as blatantly badly as ray no it's

00:14:48.950 --> 00:14:51.009
not that easy to spot a predator it'd be nice

00:14:51.009 --> 00:14:54.809
if it was no no no that's kind of the that's

00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:57.730
kind of the whole thing isn't it is be the charming

00:14:57.730 --> 00:15:02.149
open in inverted commas yeah kind of person that

00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:04.970
you you you want to you want to look for yeah

00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.860
you know um that's how they do what they do and

00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:11.320
so yeah that that was just a general thing for

00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:13.299
me about yeah i would have liked to see something

00:15:13.299 --> 00:15:15.960
a little different and we're going to try not

00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.059
to sort of compare too much against other movies

00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:20.440
but one of the things that i know i like baby

00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:21.960
girl a lot more than you did but i think one

00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:23.679
of the things that we both did like about it

00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:25.299
was that it did turn some of those tropes on

00:15:25.299 --> 00:15:28.399
their head a little bit yeah um and and go actually

00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:30.100
let's show you a slightly different version of

00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:32.100
dominance and submission yeah yeah let's have

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:35.730
more of that yeah yes And that might be another

00:15:35.730 --> 00:15:37.529
episode, but that's a really interesting kind

00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:41.610
of study on power. Yeah. Contextual power. Yes.

00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:44.490
Which I did like about that film. Yeah. To be

00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:48.029
fair. There was also quite a lot that we liked

00:15:48.029 --> 00:15:50.269
about this film, despite the fact that we started

00:15:50.269 --> 00:15:53.409
off on a bit of a negative tip. There was, yeah.

00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:55.429
No, there was definitely a lot that I did right.

00:15:55.610 --> 00:15:58.240
Yeah, one of the things that I liked... the most

00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.100
about this i think mix was how it showed service

00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:04.220
as part of submission um like colin and ray's

00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.940
relationship is far from ideal far from a good

00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.620
example of a relationship and i don't think it

00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:11.299
was ever intended to be a model kinky relationship

00:16:11.299 --> 00:16:14.860
but we still see colin learn about his submission

00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:18.419
in that relationship uh we still see him figuring

00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:21.559
out his place in all of that and seeing him sort

00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.000
of learn about service and find himself in it

00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.070
and he is described We assume by Ray off screen

00:16:29.070 --> 00:16:31.309
as having an aptitude for devotion. We learn

00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:33.129
about that from Colin repeating it. And then

00:16:33.129 --> 00:16:35.389
he repeats it at the end when he's going out

00:16:35.389 --> 00:16:37.769
looking for other people. And that's such a good

00:16:37.769 --> 00:16:40.850
way of summing up how submission is, and particularly

00:16:40.850 --> 00:16:43.990
when it comes to service. So a lot of what we

00:16:43.990 --> 00:16:46.690
see of Colin and Ray's relationship is a very

00:16:46.690 --> 00:16:50.409
heavily service driven dynamic. Colin wakes up

00:16:50.409 --> 00:16:52.490
to an alarm first thing in the morning and there

00:16:52.490 --> 00:16:54.779
will be a to do list written for him. that he

00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:57.259
needs to do. The first time he goes to Ray's

00:16:57.259 --> 00:16:59.139
house, he is sort of presented with the kitchen

00:16:59.139 --> 00:17:02.019
and told to make dinner. And he says, I don't

00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:03.480
really know how to cook. But by the end of the

00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.599
movie, he's cooking some pretty complex advanced

00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.099
stuff in that kitchen. And he's clearly really

00:17:08.099 --> 00:17:10.859
embraced that as part of his role. And there

00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:15.160
was a moment in there which did remind me of

00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.759
me. Because it was like when Colin first went

00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:21.740
round and it was clear that he was going to have

00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:24.309
to cook. He took him into the kitchen. and said,

00:17:24.349 --> 00:17:27.589
well, there's some pots and pans and stuff. And

00:17:27.589 --> 00:17:31.769
then opened the cupboard and went, yeah. And

00:17:31.769 --> 00:17:33.990
then walked away and kind of left into it. Yeah.

00:17:34.190 --> 00:17:37.190
And it reminded me a little bit of when you first

00:17:37.190 --> 00:17:38.849
started coming around and there was nothing in,

00:17:38.869 --> 00:17:40.470
there wasn't very much in my cupboard. So I was

00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:42.750
like, yeah, there are the pots and pans. The

00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:47.910
cupboards are what they are. So I did, yeah,

00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:50.240
that was it. It was a funny little moment. One

00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:52.099
of the rare moments where I was like, oh yes,

00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:56.440
I understand that bit of Ray. The Ray who has

00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:58.319
no herbs and spices in his cupboard. The Ray

00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.180
who has mixed herbs and salt in his cupboard.

00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.079
That was very, very what happened when I first

00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:06.279
came here. Is this the first time I've roasted

00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.119
you about that on the main podcast, Nick? Because

00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:09.700
I've mocked you about it twice on the Patreon,

00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:12.339
but I think this is the first time it's made

00:18:12.339 --> 00:18:14.400
it to the mainstream. The first time I came over

00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.099
to your house, you had no spices, just a pot

00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:21.480
of mixed herbs and salt. Yeah. And no cheese.

00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:24.779
And no cheese. I didn't eat a lot of cheese.

00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:28.519
I've taught you to learn. I still don't eat a

00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:30.220
lot. I don't eat a lot of cheese compared to

00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:36.299
you. But anyway. Anyway. But yeah, I like that

00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:38.019
that did seem to be an element of the relationship

00:18:38.019 --> 00:18:40.079
that Colin really embraced and got something

00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.539
for from or something from for himself. He, it

00:18:43.539 --> 00:18:46.700
seemed to, you saw the changes in his face. And

00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:50.109
I think. The acting from Harry Melling, as Colin

00:18:50.109 --> 00:18:52.190
was incredible, like the little sort of micro

00:18:52.190 --> 00:18:53.990
expressions where you could see the submission

00:18:53.990 --> 00:18:56.150
just like running through and I could really

00:18:56.150 --> 00:18:59.930
relate to that. Yeah. I really liked him. So

00:18:59.930 --> 00:19:01.390
this is the point where we should mention that

00:19:01.390 --> 00:19:03.230
we actually recorded this episode a couple of

00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:05.650
days ago and due to a horrible microphone connection

00:19:05.650 --> 00:19:08.170
issue, almost all of the recording is completely

00:19:08.170 --> 00:19:11.250
unusable. Very annoying. There's a rattling noise

00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:12.990
throughout that we will not torture you with.

00:19:13.230 --> 00:19:15.269
But there is one moment of that recording that

00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:18.460
we are going to have to share now. Today, you

00:19:18.460 --> 00:19:21.519
know who Harry Mellon is. Yes, I do. When we

00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:24.039
recorded this two days ago, you said, you know,

00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:26.359
he must be quite a new actor. I've never seen

00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:28.039
him in anything before. Yeah, yeah. And that

00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.839
is when I revealed to you. Yes. I've never seen,

00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:35.079
I haven't knowingly seen Colin in anything else.

00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.279
Oh, I'm about to blow your mind. I thought you

00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.519
knew this. Who was it? Dudley Dursley from the

00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:42.819
Harry Potter movies. Fuck off. I swear to God.

00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.160
He's been in other things as well, but yeah.

00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:51.880
Wow. That's... Of course it is. Oh, my God. Of

00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:54.559
course it is. I love the way you're getting this

00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:56.819
on microphone. I just assumed you knew. Yeah.

00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:01.779
Okay. Well, I take that back slightly then. I

00:20:01.779 --> 00:20:08.599
haven't seen anything since he was a child. That

00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.339
seems like a good point to mention, though. All

00:20:10.339 --> 00:20:12.279
of the acting in this movie was really good.

00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:14.799
The direction was really good. This was a well

00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.420
-made movie, regardless of anything. Anything

00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:19.819
we may have to say about it as this episode goes

00:20:19.819 --> 00:20:23.279
on. Yeah. Like, it was just good cinema. Good

00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:25.299
art. It was. As a piece of art, it was very,

00:20:25.339 --> 00:20:27.279
very good. Everybody did a great job. And quite

00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.579
an intimate film as well. Yeah. Weren't lots

00:20:30.579 --> 00:20:32.700
of kind of big, expansive shots. You were always

00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:36.059
quite close to the people. Yeah. Which I quite

00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:38.140
like. And it had a very distinct look and feel.

00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:39.980
Like, you could see a stillboard from that movie,

00:20:40.059 --> 00:20:41.440
a short clip from that movie. And even if you

00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.299
didn't remember it specifically, you would go,

00:20:43.339 --> 00:20:46.630
oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it is the

00:20:46.630 --> 00:20:49.369
director's first feature length movie. And I

00:20:49.369 --> 00:20:51.950
will, regardless of any sort of misgivings I

00:20:51.950 --> 00:20:53.450
have about this movie, I'd be interested to see

00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:55.809
what he does next. Yeah, yeah. I would see another

00:20:55.809 --> 00:20:58.309
of his films for sure. He's clearly a talented,

00:20:58.450 --> 00:21:02.509
talented person. But yeah, one of the things

00:21:02.509 --> 00:21:04.710
I really liked about the movie, linked to service

00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:08.490
submission, I suppose, was the portrayal of protocol.

00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:11.650
Yeah. Not just in Ray and Colin's relationship,

00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:15.230
but in the group as well. You know, things like...

00:21:15.390 --> 00:21:17.690
the dog having priority on the sofa so Colin

00:21:17.690 --> 00:21:21.150
has to stand sleeping at the end of the bed um

00:21:21.150 --> 00:21:24.869
the way that kind of the um even in the pub right

00:21:24.869 --> 00:21:26.750
at the start the way the way that people positioned

00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:29.430
themselves yeah there's quite a few sitting on

00:21:29.430 --> 00:21:31.069
the floor quite a few kind of kneeling or sitting

00:21:31.069 --> 00:21:32.730
on the floor while the dominance was sitting

00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:34.509
up on the on the chairs and that was kind of

00:21:34.509 --> 00:21:36.910
a feature throughout of that quite a high protocol

00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:39.609
approach to to relationships and dynamics yeah

00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:41.930
and it was really nice to see that because it's

00:21:41.930 --> 00:21:45.160
not something you typically i'm not sure it's

00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:47.180
something you would typically see yeah i think

00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.539
protocol is often seen as something that's either

00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:51.980
very extreme and very strange or it's just seen

00:21:51.980 --> 00:21:55.400
as difficult to portray i think because it's

00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.839
it's commonly misunderstood to be just very kind

00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.240
of cold and formal yeah which doesn't necessarily

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.519
translate to a movie very well but protocol can

00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.779
be in those subtle day -to -day things like the

00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:07.240
positioning of your body and just you know an

00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.640
honorific setting in conversation which could

00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:11.640
be overall i really like informal conversation

00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.200
it's those little things yeah they'll just remind

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.500
you of what the type of relationship is and i

00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:18.799
think they did that very well yeah and that and

00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:20.960
that that's what i really liked about it it wasn't

00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.200
presented as this big formal thing it was just

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.500
part of just part of the context it was just

00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:29.740
part of the the way that they did things yeah

00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:32.019
and the way it wasn't there was no big deal made

00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:34.079
of it it was just everybody knew where they needed

00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.119
to be yeah and everybody knew what they needed

00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.259
to do so they did it i i just really liked how

00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:42.000
natural that was yeah definitely i thought it

00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.500
was a very good Very good thing. Yeah. I liked

00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:48.380
some of the subtle bits of emotional masochism

00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:51.180
as well. And it's tricky because I think a lot

00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:53.640
of the things in the relationship that made Colin

00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.799
emotionally suffer were not, they were not BDSM.

00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.200
They were just mistreatment. But that doesn't

00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.099
mean that you can't see emotional masochism in

00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:04.720
it. A big part of my kink awakening in my early

00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.640
30s was a vanilla situationship with someone

00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:10.279
who was gearing up to be an emotional abuser

00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:11.720
if things hadn't fallen apart when they did.

00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:14.579
yeah and he would sort of play mind games with

00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:16.839
me cut communication and disappear for days at

00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:20.319
a time you know encourage me to behave in certain

00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.359
ways and then shame me and degrade me for doing

00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.099
them and all of this kind of head fuckery stuff

00:23:25.099 --> 00:23:28.799
yeah and i learned from that situation two things

00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.579
one was that i did not want to be with that person

00:23:30.579 --> 00:23:33.779
absolutely fuck that but two that whatever i

00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:36.000
did want in a relationship had to involve someone

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.059
who could make me just sob my heart out on the

00:23:38.059 --> 00:23:40.470
floor sometimes Because that was where all the

00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:42.430
desire came from. That was where the heat in

00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:45.809
that relationship came from. And I think the

00:23:45.809 --> 00:23:49.369
movie did have moments of showing that, where

00:23:49.369 --> 00:23:51.410
I think some of the intensity of what Colin was

00:23:51.410 --> 00:23:55.069
feeling for Rey was growing in the moments of

00:23:55.069 --> 00:23:58.569
pain. And you could see that. And that's an element

00:23:58.569 --> 00:24:01.529
of masochism that's not shown a lot, whether

00:24:01.529 --> 00:24:03.670
it's being shown as part of King or being shown

00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:05.410
as part of something else. It's not something

00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:09.339
that we see a lot of. It reminded me a little

00:24:09.339 --> 00:24:11.140
bit, the movie in general actually reminded me

00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:14.059
a little bit of Venus in Furs. Right. We're going

00:24:14.059 --> 00:24:16.819
for a very old bit of kink media there. Yeah,

00:24:16.819 --> 00:24:19.599
yeah. I've just Googled it. That book came out

00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.619
in 1870. Oh, wow. But that is still the best

00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:25.960
portrayal of emotional masochism that I've ever

00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:27.579
read. And there's a reason why the author is

00:24:27.579 --> 00:24:31.539
who masochism is named after. Because it's not

00:24:31.539 --> 00:24:34.019
a book about kink. It's a book about suffering.

00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:38.990
Right. And being... held at arm's length from

00:24:38.990 --> 00:24:42.410
a person who makes you just hurt and then disappears

00:24:42.410 --> 00:24:46.950
is something that that represents my masochism

00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:49.789
in a way that we don't see very much yeah but

00:24:49.789 --> 00:24:55.109
i feel like in 2025 that story is maybe not the

00:24:55.109 --> 00:24:57.170
best way to represent the kink community i will

00:24:57.170 --> 00:25:00.089
give a pass to a novel from 1870 yeah yeah because

00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:02.529
it would be easy for that to be the reason why

00:25:02.529 --> 00:25:05.849
i'm really negative opinion of rey and for it

00:25:05.849 --> 00:25:08.089
to look like it's bordering on it's tripping

00:25:08.089 --> 00:25:14.309
over into abuse rather than kink yeah i think

00:25:14.309 --> 00:25:16.529
and there is a whole other episode or a whole

00:25:16.529 --> 00:25:19.170
other discussion at least in this about whether

00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:23.769
media is representing bdsm as in the whole acronym

00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:26.210
as in a kink practice as in a thing that consenting

00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:28.650
adults do with each other for fun or is media

00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:31.509
representing sadism and masochism which is a

00:25:31.509 --> 00:25:33.750
little different. So the Saw movies are representing

00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:37.269
sadism. Yeah. Venus in Furs is representing masochism.

00:25:37.349 --> 00:25:39.750
You know, there's a lot of media out there that

00:25:39.750 --> 00:25:43.490
will show enjoyment of pain, giving or receiving,

00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:47.710
that has nothing to do with kink. Yeah. And that

00:25:47.710 --> 00:25:50.349
can be interesting, but it doesn't feel like

00:25:50.349 --> 00:25:52.089
it's representing our community. I think if a

00:25:52.089 --> 00:25:54.410
movie sets out to show our community, it maybe

00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:56.549
needs to handle those things with a little bit

00:25:56.549 --> 00:26:00.880
of care. Yeah. Yeah. And some of the things that

00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.720
are missing from the movie would have helped

00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:06.519
with that. Yeah, definitely. But I can see what

00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:08.579
you mean. There is definitely an element of Colin

00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:12.539
kind of enjoying that part of the suffering.

00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:16.700
Yeah. You see him quite quickly go, like you

00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:18.579
say, through the micro -expressions and the way

00:26:18.579 --> 00:26:22.079
he behaves and stuff. He's clearly having a good

00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.279
time on some level, kind of throughout the movie.

00:26:24.800 --> 00:26:27.140
Yeah. And there's a conflict in him where some

00:26:27.140 --> 00:26:28.980
of the intensity, some of the desire is coming

00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:32.680
from the suffering. But also, as most masochists

00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:34.480
do, there's a part of him that resists that.

00:26:34.619 --> 00:26:37.099
And I think that part exists regardless of whether

00:26:37.099 --> 00:26:38.880
something is consensual and ethical and healthy

00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.119
or not. There's a part of you that's always going

00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.019
to fight pain. And if you're a masochist, there's

00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:44.339
a part of you that's always going to chase it.

00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:46.660
And those two sides of you are always at war

00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:48.880
with each other. There are two wolves inside

00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:55.960
you. There are. And they're both perverts. so

00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:58.819
yeah i think i think they showed that i think

00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:00.319
they showed that well i would have liked to see

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:02.559
a little more of that and i feel like as with

00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:03.880
a lot of things in this movie it could have been

00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:05.740
a very different movie if it had been specifically

00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:08.019
about that yeah might not have been any better

00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:09.720
representation but it would have been interesting

00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:15.980
yeah yes yeah um something that i think we both

00:27:15.980 --> 00:27:18.900
really really liked in the moment but unfortunately

00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:20.940
felt was a little bit undermined by where the

00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:23.019
movie went from there, was the scene where Ray

00:27:23.019 --> 00:27:26.660
meets Colin's parents. Yes. Because I liked that...

00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:28.220
There was a lot I liked about that scene. I liked

00:27:28.220 --> 00:27:29.779
that the dad was clearly not really understanding

00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:31.440
what was going on, but being supportive anyway.

00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:35.380
Yeah. We love that. I liked that the mum was...

00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:37.920
concerned and challenging ray because unless

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.640
you've sat the parents down and explained this

00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:41.519
is what bdsm is and this is how we're making

00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:43.660
sure it's safe and all of this stuff which is

00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:45.759
an uncomfortable conversation for anybody yeah

00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:47.619
i think someone from the outside looking in is

00:27:47.619 --> 00:27:50.140
always going to see any kind of power exchange

00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:53.059
relationship with an element of concern regardless

00:27:53.059 --> 00:27:56.019
of whether it's it's a healthy one or not from

00:27:56.019 --> 00:27:58.420
the outside looking in it's you know, seeing

00:27:58.420 --> 00:28:00.880
someone talking down to your son or ordering

00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.200
them around or pulling them out of family functions

00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:06.019
and stuff and giving them orders, you're going

00:28:06.019 --> 00:28:07.880
to have your back up a little bit. And Colin's

00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.339
mum getting upset with Ray felt completely realistic

00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:13.079
and quite reasonable under the circumstances.

00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:16.920
And I liked that the way that Ray responded to

00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:20.099
that was not to get angry, not to even really

00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.579
try to defend himself, just... to say just because

00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:25.859
our relationship makes you uncomfortable does

00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:28.559
not mean that it's bad for your son yeah like

00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.640
really almost breaking the fourth wall and saying

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:32.519
to the audience like you're seeing some stuff

00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:33.900
in this movie and you're gonna see some stuff

00:28:33.900 --> 00:28:36.240
in this movie that you would not want that you

00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.839
would not enjoy that looks nothing like how a

00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.559
relationship should look in your head yeah and

00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.559
that doesn't mean it's wrong yeah love absolutely

00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:48.869
brilliant brilliant moment in the movie It's

00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:50.730
just unfortunate that it was Ray that said it

00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:52.730
and then he proceeds to be extremely bad for

00:28:52.730 --> 00:28:56.430
her son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does undermine

00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:58.670
it a little bit. And that's such a shame because

00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:00.609
it's such an important message generally, not

00:29:00.609 --> 00:29:03.349
just about King and BDSM, but about anything.

00:29:03.609 --> 00:29:05.529
You hear it talked about a lot with people's

00:29:05.529 --> 00:29:07.470
gender identity and their sexuality. It's like

00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:09.190
you don't have to understand it, but you do have

00:29:09.190 --> 00:29:12.890
to respect it. And I think that's the point that

00:29:12.890 --> 00:29:16.190
he's trying to make there. It don't really care.

00:29:16.230 --> 00:29:19.269
It could get it. you just have to respect that

00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:22.089
it is what it is so it was and at that point

00:29:22.089 --> 00:29:24.190
i was like oh yes this is brilliant like this

00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:27.190
is this is a brilliant movie i am fully on board

00:29:27.190 --> 00:29:30.730
with it yeah um and was for a good while after

00:29:30.730 --> 00:29:33.609
that to be fair yeah you know it all fell apart

00:29:33.609 --> 00:29:37.069
in the last five minutes i think for us yeah

00:29:37.069 --> 00:29:39.109
um because yeah there were issues with how ray

00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:41.289
was treating colin throughout but there's a version

00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:45.049
of that story where ray recognizes that and correct

00:29:45.049 --> 00:29:47.839
some of it or at least Make some steps towards

00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:50.500
it. I don't think movies need to be all tied

00:29:50.500 --> 00:29:52.160
up in a neat bow at the end and everything's

00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:55.480
perfect. But a version of it where Ray acknowledges

00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:58.380
that some of his own shit is fucking up the relationship

00:29:58.380 --> 00:30:03.579
with Colin. Yeah. And makes some attempt to try

00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:05.900
to put things on a better track before the end

00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:07.980
of the movie. Yeah. I would have liked to see

00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.359
that. You don't have to make him into a great

00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:12.019
dominant. You don't have to make him into a great

00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:15.029
person. You don't have to. say that they're going

00:30:15.029 --> 00:30:16.829
to live happily ever after with no issues ever

00:30:16.829 --> 00:30:19.509
again but yeah a version of the story where ray

00:30:19.509 --> 00:30:21.410
redeems himself a little bit would have given

00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:24.569
that moment a lot more weight yeah and made it

00:30:24.569 --> 00:30:26.509
the central message of the movie instead of it

00:30:26.509 --> 00:30:29.089
almost feeling like we were being told to believe

00:30:29.089 --> 00:30:32.130
the opposite yeah like if ray said it it's probably

00:30:32.130 --> 00:30:36.289
not great yeah true true yeah there's any any

00:30:36.289 --> 00:30:38.289
number of ways that the film could have ended

00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:40.690
which would have been better I think even if

00:30:40.690 --> 00:30:42.549
it was you know one conversation where they're

00:30:42.549 --> 00:30:44.069
like well this is what I want Colin was saying

00:30:44.069 --> 00:30:46.009
this is what I want and Ray was saying well this

00:30:46.009 --> 00:30:48.289
is what I want those things aren't compatible

00:30:48.289 --> 00:30:52.569
are they yeah nice to meet you all the best yeah

00:30:52.569 --> 00:30:55.349
kind of thing and they go on with their lives

00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:57.690
yes that's not how that played out which was

00:30:57.690 --> 00:31:00.990
um which was a shame yeah and another thing that

00:31:00.990 --> 00:31:03.359
would have potentially changed how i felt about

00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:05.019
the movie overall was developing some of the

00:31:05.019 --> 00:31:07.359
side characters more so even if colin and ray's

00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.799
story went exactly the way it did we have more

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.720
to contrast it with because what we saw of the

00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:13.599
group was great and that was another thing that

00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.420
i think we both really liked yeah it was those

00:31:16.420 --> 00:31:19.619
minor characters who were the group of bikers

00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:21.319
that that were raised friends and then accepted

00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.299
colin as one of their friends as well yeah yeah

00:31:23.299 --> 00:31:25.200
and there was a lot about that although we didn't

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.019
really get to know many of the characters they

00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:29.440
were a really important part of the scenery yeah

00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.400
Like I said before, the way that Quite High Protocol

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:36.980
was presented in a really natural way and the

00:31:36.980 --> 00:31:41.900
way that they were clearly kind of like a chosen

00:31:41.900 --> 00:31:44.160
family. Yeah. They all knew each other. They

00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:45.819
all got on. They were all kind of comfortable

00:31:45.819 --> 00:31:48.799
with each other, both on a personal level and

00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:50.660
expressing their dynamics and stuff like that.

00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:55.259
And then the group scene when they were camping.

00:31:56.549 --> 00:31:58.829
was not something i've ever experienced before

00:31:58.829 --> 00:32:01.670
but it was really interesting to see yeah like

00:32:01.670 --> 00:32:03.690
the you know the all of the submissives kind

00:32:03.690 --> 00:32:05.869
of bent over the picnic tables as property for

00:32:05.869 --> 00:32:09.789
the assembled dominance kind of kind of thing

00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:13.829
um like let's say i've never experienced that

00:32:13.829 --> 00:32:15.869
but i was like I can see how that would work.

00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:17.329
I can see how that would go. And it's really

00:32:17.329 --> 00:32:20.029
nice to see that. Yeah. And although we haven't

00:32:20.029 --> 00:32:22.710
had sort of an experience that exactly matches

00:32:22.710 --> 00:32:26.829
that, it felt in vibes and feel a lot like when

00:32:26.829 --> 00:32:31.650
we did go on a kinky camping trip. It feels like

00:32:31.650 --> 00:32:34.430
some of the group play that we've been involved

00:32:34.430 --> 00:32:37.269
in and the very sort of relaxed way that people

00:32:37.269 --> 00:32:39.650
play in front of each other at events. Sitting,

00:32:39.710 --> 00:32:42.089
having a conversation with a friend while they're

00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:44.789
getting needles shoved into... very intimate

00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:47.890
places and things like that um popping into a

00:32:47.890 --> 00:32:49.170
room where friends are playing and being like

00:32:49.170 --> 00:32:52.329
oh what are you up to and like that the casualness

00:32:52.329 --> 00:32:56.109
of sex violence and intimacy or being out in

00:32:56.109 --> 00:32:57.690
the open when you're around people on the same

00:32:57.690 --> 00:33:00.210
wavelength as you yeah and how those boundaries

00:33:00.210 --> 00:33:02.369
become really soft and how everything just becomes

00:33:02.369 --> 00:33:04.549
quite comfortable and yeah things that would

00:33:04.549 --> 00:33:06.569
be shocking in any other context become very

00:33:06.569 --> 00:33:09.029
much just part of the furniture yeah it had very

00:33:09.029 --> 00:33:11.869
much that feel to it it did remind me of experiences

00:33:11.869 --> 00:33:14.369
that we've had yeah No, that's a fair point.

00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:16.390
I just really like the setup of it where the

00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:17.930
subs were all on the picnic benches. There was

00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:20.450
a couple of people sitting in deck chairs chatting

00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:22.289
and then there was one guy kind of beezing about

00:33:22.289 --> 00:33:24.769
on a bike around the campsite. It was just like,

00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:26.589
yeah, they're just out having fun, aren't they?

00:33:26.690 --> 00:33:29.130
Yeah. And enjoying spending time together. And

00:33:29.130 --> 00:33:30.670
the human pup barking at the bike. Love that.

00:33:30.670 --> 00:33:32.589
And the human pup barking at the bike, yes. Having

00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:36.390
a great time. Yeah. But if you want to set up

00:33:36.390 --> 00:33:38.670
where I'm over a picnic bench and anyone who's

00:33:38.670 --> 00:33:41.950
there can make use of me, mate, because I'm on

00:33:41.950 --> 00:33:48.130
board. Shock. Horror. I am stunned by that revelation

00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:52.509
from you. Never would have expected that. No.

00:33:52.589 --> 00:33:55.390
So something that we have sort of touched on

00:33:55.390 --> 00:33:57.150
a little bit now and that we've talked about

00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:59.490
a lot over the last few days, I think, is how

00:33:59.490 --> 00:34:02.289
much do you feel it is the responsibility of

00:34:02.289 --> 00:34:05.799
a movie to provide? in quotes good representation

00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:09.420
or education about the community that it's showing

00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:12.739
mix that's a big question isn't it yeah and even

00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:15.619
though i know it's in the outline i'm literally

00:34:15.619 --> 00:34:17.460
looking at the outline as you're asking that

00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:21.380
question that's a very deep question um i guess

00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:24.559
thinking about the community itself and the way

00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:28.239
that that is represented in in movies and in

00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.340
art and in any form of art if you're if you're

00:34:31.340 --> 00:34:33.340
going to represent the community it has to come

00:34:33.340 --> 00:34:35.039
from a place of understanding and it has to come

00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.019
from a place of respect and kind of hearing that

00:34:38.019 --> 00:34:40.099
community speak when when they're talking to

00:34:40.099 --> 00:34:41.960
you so don't just go and well this is what i

00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:43.719
think of this community so i'm going to present

00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.980
it yeah you have to you have to know it a little

00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:51.039
bit even if it is second hand um i think there

00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.380
are aspects of this movie where they did a really

00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:56.239
good job of that and and there are and this is

00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:57.639
something that you told me some of the people

00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:01.000
who were in the friend group are are members

00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:04.079
of the leather community yeah and so they will

00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.639
have brought a level of authenticity to the things

00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.579
that we were seeing on screen and i think that's

00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:14.039
really important if you're going to um try and

00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.940
represent a community you have to be kind of

00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:21.059
faithful to it yeah otherwise it's otherwise

00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:23.599
it's shit i have to think of a better way of

00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.019
saying that no i feel like that's the right way

00:35:26.019 --> 00:35:29.719
of saying it otherwise it's shit yeah you know

00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:31.840
i think one of the things that really attracted

00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:33.860
me to going and seeing this movie you know even

00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.159
though the trailer was a little bit deceptive

00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:40.780
was i kind of saw i kind of saw myself i saw

00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:43.639
us and i saw my community in it and based on

00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:45.360
the trailer and what we read about it we're like

00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:47.519
yeah that could be a really good thing it'll

00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:53.119
be really nice to have a fairly faithful and

00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.440
authentic representation of what that's like

00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.110
on the screen So I think there's a big responsibility

00:35:59.110 --> 00:36:02.329
for people who create art like that. If they're

00:36:02.329 --> 00:36:05.449
going to do that job of showcasing a group, doing

00:36:05.449 --> 00:36:08.210
that in the right way. Yeah, I think I would

00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:10.929
agree. There's room for artistic license and

00:36:10.929 --> 00:36:12.929
creativity and things like that. And I think

00:36:12.929 --> 00:36:15.929
inevitably, when you see a movie that shows something

00:36:15.929 --> 00:36:18.489
that you know a lot about, it's going to irritate

00:36:18.489 --> 00:36:21.090
you. Yeah. Because you will see the flaws in

00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:24.699
it. I know. like doctors and nurses and other

00:36:24.699 --> 00:36:27.199
medical professionals often just roll their eyes

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:29.559
at any kind of medical drama because people will

00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:31.159
have a chart that has complete nonsense numbers

00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:32.980
on it and a doctor will say something that makes

00:36:32.980 --> 00:36:35.920
no sense um a big one for me is movies that show

00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:38.039
drug use particularly intravenous drug use because

00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.699
i have injected drugs people going in at a right

00:36:40.699 --> 00:36:42.780
angle or using a needle that's like a giant like

00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.579
dental sort of nerve block needle or something

00:36:45.579 --> 00:36:47.460
yeah i'm sitting there like what are you doing

00:36:47.460 --> 00:36:49.800
that's not how that works so there's going to

00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:51.800
be an element of that with watching any movie

00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.280
about bdsm i think if you're in the lifestyle

00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.840
that you're gonna you're gonna find things to

00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.639
nitpick um and to be fair in terms of like apart

00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:03.539
from consent negotiation there wasn't a lot where

00:37:03.539 --> 00:37:06.340
i was going that is factually incorrect you don't

00:37:06.340 --> 00:37:08.679
understand yeah you're doing because they clearly

00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:10.739
had done a lot of research spent a lot spent

00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:12.699
a lot of time with the right kind of people to

00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.219
to understand the community that they were representing

00:37:15.219 --> 00:37:18.920
but i think like movies don't have a responsibility

00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:21.800
to educate i don't think i was ever expecting

00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:25.579
pillion would be or should be a how to do ds

00:37:25.579 --> 00:37:28.219
movie it was never going to be that same with

00:37:28.219 --> 00:37:30.659
any other movie about kink like it shouldn't

00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:33.760
be used as a how -to guide ideally in a perfect

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:36.300
world you don't want it to be a like a how not

00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:37.940
to guide you know you don't want it to actively

00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:40.039
teach people to do the wrong thing yeah but i

00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:42.460
think people are also responsible for if a movie

00:37:42.460 --> 00:37:43.980
makes them want to try something, maybe doing

00:37:43.980 --> 00:37:46.519
at least a quick Google first. So you don't want

00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.400
it to actively encourage people to do it wrong.

00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.599
But, you know, there's some wiggle room between

00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.570
those two points. I think the thing where I keep

00:37:54.570 --> 00:37:56.190
sort of bouncing back and forth to what I believe

00:37:56.190 --> 00:37:59.650
is, is it right for a movie to represent toxic,

00:37:59.690 --> 00:38:02.449
unhealthy or abusive kinky relationships when

00:38:02.449 --> 00:38:05.190
there is such a lack of representation of healthy,

00:38:05.269 --> 00:38:07.909
positive, ethical, supportive kink relationships?

00:38:08.349 --> 00:38:10.349
Yeah. Because there's nothing wrong with telling

00:38:10.349 --> 00:38:12.730
a story about a bad relationship in itself. Like

00:38:12.730 --> 00:38:14.809
those relationships do exist. And some of the

00:38:14.809 --> 00:38:16.590
people I've seen responding positively to this

00:38:16.590 --> 00:38:18.730
movie have been people who have unfortunately

00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:20.929
had experiences similar to what Colin had with

00:38:20.929 --> 00:38:22.789
Ray. yeah and obviously they're going to see

00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:24.409
themselves in that and feel represented which

00:38:24.409 --> 00:38:27.289
is important but for people outside the community

00:38:27.289 --> 00:38:29.250
if this is the only representation they're ever

00:38:29.250 --> 00:38:33.010
shown of us yeah is relationships that are at

00:38:33.010 --> 00:38:36.769
best imperfect and with poor communication yeah

00:38:36.769 --> 00:38:40.170
how does that portray a community that is already

00:38:40.170 --> 00:38:42.610
quite sort of pushed underground pushed out of

00:38:42.610 --> 00:38:45.329
the mainstream yeah in some ways criminalized

00:38:45.329 --> 00:38:48.309
in a lot of ways censored yeah is that responsible

00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:51.369
and i feel like In the current political climate,

00:38:51.469 --> 00:38:53.610
maybe this was not the move to make. I think

00:38:53.610 --> 00:38:56.869
you're right. It is disappointing when the only

00:38:56.869 --> 00:39:01.590
time that the kink community in BDSM is represented

00:39:01.590 --> 00:39:05.289
in films is kind of in that at best imperfect

00:39:05.289 --> 00:39:09.230
and sometimes outright negative. I think there

00:39:09.230 --> 00:39:13.190
is a limit to what films like that can do and

00:39:13.190 --> 00:39:15.550
still serve as entertainment because that's fundamentally

00:39:15.550 --> 00:39:18.800
what it is. You know, I think... You're kind

00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:22.519
of talking about imperfect relationships. The

00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:26.960
central theme of almost any film which is focused

00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.920
around relationships is their imperfection. Yeah.

00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.019
You need some conflict. You need some conflict

00:39:33.019 --> 00:39:36.579
in a film. You need something which is morally

00:39:36.579 --> 00:39:40.699
grey or ambiguous or unclear or you need a level

00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:44.219
of conflict. You need something to be wrong for

00:39:44.219 --> 00:39:46.579
want of a better word in order for it to function

00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:50.530
as a piece of entertainment yeah i think the

00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:53.710
difficulty with this movie in particular is that

00:39:53.710 --> 00:39:57.309
in any other genre of movie there is usually

00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:01.010
a positive outcome to that do you know what i

00:40:01.010 --> 00:40:04.289
mean you know this was marketed weirdly as a

00:40:04.289 --> 00:40:07.130
gay rom -com yeah all the articles about it were

00:40:07.130 --> 00:40:10.389
like super raunchy gay rom -com yeah kinky gay

00:40:10.389 --> 00:40:13.190
bikers falling in love you know it had elements

00:40:13.190 --> 00:40:17.159
of all of that but it was not that yeah And I

00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:20.079
think that the kind of layering of the kink and

00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:24.519
BDSM element on top of what was essentially marketed

00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.179
as a rom -com, I think is where we might struggle

00:40:27.179 --> 00:40:28.840
with that a little bit in terms of representation.

00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:30.960
Because your average person watching that film

00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:33.440
with a neutral to positive outlook is going to

00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.619
go, there was this really shy guy, met this really

00:40:35.619 --> 00:40:37.960
dominant guy, got into a relationship with it,

00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:40.239
had a good time for a little while, didn't work

00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:44.030
out, dominant guy was a bit shit. but the submissive

00:40:44.030 --> 00:40:45.909
knew who he was at the end of it and was in a

00:40:45.909 --> 00:40:48.329
positive place. That's the message that people

00:40:48.329 --> 00:40:51.829
will take from that film. Yeah. I think there's

00:40:51.829 --> 00:40:54.210
an undercurrent to it, which is probably what

00:40:54.210 --> 00:40:57.050
we struggle with, with it, because of some of

00:40:57.050 --> 00:40:59.710
the more subtle messages in that film. Yeah.

00:40:59.829 --> 00:41:03.289
The commentary it's making about BDSM, I think,

00:41:03.449 --> 00:41:05.489
will probably fly over a lot of people's heads.

00:41:05.650 --> 00:41:08.989
Your average moviegoer, it will probably fly

00:41:08.989 --> 00:41:11.070
over their head a little bit. I think it will,

00:41:11.170 --> 00:41:13.989
but my worry is that it comes out subconsciously

00:41:13.989 --> 00:41:16.610
in their attitudes towards King. Yeah, I agree.

00:41:16.750 --> 00:41:18.469
That's where it gets a little bit risky, where

00:41:18.469 --> 00:41:21.170
certain things will stick and come out in ways

00:41:21.170 --> 00:41:24.349
that might not be immediately obvious. Yeah,

00:41:24.369 --> 00:41:27.750
yeah. Because I think there's always a temptation,

00:41:28.010 --> 00:41:30.429
and sometimes I'm like, am I just overthinking

00:41:30.429 --> 00:41:33.150
things? You know, sometimes a movie is just a

00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:36.789
movie. Yeah. But I think a movie as well made

00:41:36.789 --> 00:41:39.760
as this. You can't just assume that anyone has

00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.840
gone into it without any intention of making

00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.260
it say something. This wasn't just a piece of

00:41:44.260 --> 00:41:46.059
light, trashy entertainment for people to watch

00:41:46.059 --> 00:41:48.340
for two hours and forget about. This was a solid

00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:50.760
piece of art. So let's assume that the director

00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:52.900
is as smart as he seems and had something to

00:41:52.900 --> 00:41:55.340
say. The message we're getting from it either

00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:58.039
was intentional, in which case I have beef with

00:41:58.039 --> 00:41:59.900
him, or the message we're getting from it is

00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:02.780
not what he intended and it's been clumsily handled.

00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:04.989
And either way, I think that is worth talking

00:42:04.989 --> 00:42:07.730
about in terms of the rep. I think you're absolutely

00:42:07.730 --> 00:42:11.110
right. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think

00:42:11.110 --> 00:42:16.489
there is a limit sometimes to what we can expect

00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:20.269
from. Although this isn't a big blockbuster film

00:42:20.269 --> 00:42:23.070
which is being shown in millions of cinemas across

00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:28.070
the... This is mass media. This is mass entertainment.

00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:31.030
I think there's a limit on what we can expect.

00:42:31.659 --> 00:42:34.780
yeah from that although interestingly as soon

00:42:34.780 --> 00:42:38.280
as i'd say that you wouldn't say that i i probably

00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:40.599
wouldn't say that if the group in question was

00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:43.440
people of color or transgender people yeah or

00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.199
if the gay representation was as questionable

00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:48.300
as the kink representation yeah yeah yeah yeah

00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:51.900
i think so it's a really complicated thing i

00:42:51.900 --> 00:42:56.219
suppose um one element that i did think of which

00:42:56.219 --> 00:42:59.119
is possibly less controversial is as you mentioned

00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.659
earlier on there is not one second of that movie,

00:43:02.780 --> 00:43:06.940
or hour and 55 minutes or whatever of it, dedicated

00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:10.639
to an explicit conversation about consent and

00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.239
negotiation of boundaries. They meet, Ray starts

00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.159
giving orders, Owen starts obeying them. Yeah.

00:43:18.219 --> 00:43:22.440
That's how that works. We've seen that before

00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:25.820
in other movies that have a kink theme. Yeah.

00:43:25.940 --> 00:43:29.059
I think in every kinky movie I've seen up to

00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:31.300
now. Including ones that I like more than this.

00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:36.860
And we had a dead interesting conversation on

00:43:36.860 --> 00:43:39.300
the way home from the cinema on a similar sort

00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:42.559
of track of yes, consent and consent is really

00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:44.860
important. Negotiation is really important. Setting

00:43:44.860 --> 00:43:46.619
boundaries and being clear is really important

00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:49.019
and getting into those dynamics. But unless you're

00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:52.360
really into it, it's also not that interesting.

00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.019
We find it interesting. Because it's what we're

00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:57.599
really into. Because we're sex nerds. And people

00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:59.440
listening to it might be really interested in

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:01.300
it. All of that stuff is really interesting to

00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:04.659
people who are interested in it. Yeah. But what

00:44:04.659 --> 00:44:06.800
I was saying on the way home was, it's difficult

00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.739
to portray that for your average audience in

00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:12.679
a way that is interesting and engaging. And therefore,

00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.099
is there a limit to what we should expect from

00:44:15.099 --> 00:44:17.000
a movie like that, which is designed to have

00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:20.460
mass appeal? Yeah. And I don't want to see in

00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:23.570
a movie a 20 minute negotiation scene. yeah you

00:44:23.570 --> 00:44:25.670
know i mean maybe i do because i'm a second yeah

00:44:25.670 --> 00:44:28.289
yeah but i don't expect and i don't think it

00:44:28.289 --> 00:44:29.789
would be a good idea it would kill the momentum

00:44:29.789 --> 00:44:32.150
of the movie um and this wouldn't have been the

00:44:32.150 --> 00:44:34.269
movie to do it because the whole the whole story

00:44:34.269 --> 00:44:36.769
the story they chose to tell was about an unhealthy

00:44:36.769 --> 00:44:39.070
relationship so i i don't think it's that we

00:44:39.070 --> 00:44:40.690
didn't see the consent it's that the consent

00:44:40.690 --> 00:44:43.789
was absent yeah but if you had chosen to make

00:44:43.789 --> 00:44:46.010
a different movie there are ways that you can

00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:49.929
include consent without it being boring, dry,

00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:52.269
killing the momentum because there were a couple

00:44:52.269 --> 00:44:54.369
of montage scenes in that movie of things like

00:44:54.369 --> 00:44:57.750
Colin being measured for his leather clothing

00:44:57.750 --> 00:44:59.150
that he got on his collar, which was beautiful.

00:44:59.309 --> 00:45:00.989
It was just part of the montage scene. It was

00:45:00.989 --> 00:45:02.929
only a few seconds, but it was absolutely beautiful.

00:45:03.090 --> 00:45:07.179
The look on his face and... And it was a rare

00:45:07.179 --> 00:45:09.619
moment of intimacy that we actually saw and it

00:45:09.619 --> 00:45:12.139
felt very authentic. Yeah, the care that Ray

00:45:12.139 --> 00:45:13.519
was taking and making sure that measurements

00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:15.340
were right and stuff like that. Yeah, very precise.

00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:18.019
That was an element of dominance that I do recognise,

00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:20.599
that sort of precision in getting it right because

00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:22.900
this is your property you're dealing with. Like,

00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:25.559
that was good. But in those kind of montage scenes

00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:27.400
where we're seeing Colin and Ray's interactions,

00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.159
we're seeing Colin's interactions with the group,

00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:31.239
we're seeing Colin's appearance change and his

00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:33.380
confidence grow and his role and all that stuff.

00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:37.119
It would take nothing away from the movie if

00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.059
it was a movie about a consensual, healthy, negotiated

00:45:40.059 --> 00:45:43.559
relationship to show them sitting at a table

00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.099
having a conversation and maybe one of them's

00:45:45.099 --> 00:45:46.699
got a notepad in front of them writing down a

00:45:46.699 --> 00:45:49.300
half -minute list. Going through something like

00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:51.539
the BDSM test together or doing one of these

00:45:51.539 --> 00:45:53.099
little online checklists about things you're

00:45:53.099 --> 00:45:57.150
interested in. um it could be um being at an

00:45:57.150 --> 00:45:59.429
event or being with the group of bikers and seeing

00:45:59.429 --> 00:46:01.250
someone else playing and the submissive pointing

00:46:01.250 --> 00:46:04.210
going i'll do that yeah that's how you show consent

00:46:04.210 --> 00:46:06.389
it doesn't have to be people sitting down at

00:46:06.389 --> 00:46:07.989
the table and going through a contract line by

00:46:07.989 --> 00:46:10.269
line though now that i've said it one of the

00:46:10.269 --> 00:46:12.250
few things that 50 shades actually did all right

00:46:12.250 --> 00:46:14.730
was a negotiation scene true there were many

00:46:14.730 --> 00:46:16.969
consent issues before and after that scene where

00:46:16.969 --> 00:46:19.900
they were both sitting at the table and fucking

00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:21.420
each other with their eyes while going through

00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:24.719
the contract was great. So it can be done. It

00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:28.440
can be done by a really bad movie. No one else

00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:32.639
has any excuse. True. Do you know what? That's

00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:37.019
a fair point. Yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah,

00:46:37.099 --> 00:46:39.519
I had forgotten how well that Fifty Shades had

00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:44.159
done that. In a sea of things that it got wrong.

00:46:44.300 --> 00:46:48.750
Yeah. That was a good scene. Sexiest scene in

00:46:48.750 --> 00:46:53.949
it was the negotiation. Yeah. Yeah, true. And

00:46:53.949 --> 00:46:55.469
I guess in this movie you would probably expect

00:46:55.469 --> 00:46:57.829
to see less of that because the imperfect nature

00:46:57.829 --> 00:47:00.269
of the relationship, which is kind of the point,

00:47:00.349 --> 00:47:03.750
you're not going to see loads of that. It's just

00:47:03.750 --> 00:47:07.309
that thing for me of, of course you're going

00:47:07.309 --> 00:47:09.269
to spot mistakes. Yeah. Of course you're going

00:47:09.269 --> 00:47:10.929
to spot things that aren't right and so that's

00:47:10.929 --> 00:47:12.690
not how that would work. But the movie isn't

00:47:12.690 --> 00:47:14.929
necessarily directed at you. Yeah. It isn't directed

00:47:14.929 --> 00:47:18.309
just at you. Yeah. for sure yeah so we've talked

00:47:18.309 --> 00:47:19.889
about some things that we liked we talked about

00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:22.670
some things that we we were less keen on and

00:47:22.670 --> 00:47:25.190
have have differing slightly differing views

00:47:25.190 --> 00:47:27.329
on but there was one part of the movie which

00:47:27.329 --> 00:47:31.230
both of us despised yes and kind of ruined the

00:47:31.230 --> 00:47:34.489
whole thing yeah i think everything else that

00:47:34.489 --> 00:47:36.670
i had my issues with i could have probably forgiven

00:47:36.670 --> 00:47:39.090
if it wasn't for this yeah yeah like show me

00:47:39.090 --> 00:47:41.510
a badly behaved dominant a messy relationship

00:47:41.510 --> 00:47:44.099
toxic abusive like We can talk about whether

00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:45.980
that's good rep or not all day, but this is what

00:47:45.980 --> 00:47:48.139
annoyed me. And that is the way that the movie

00:47:48.139 --> 00:47:52.079
conflated lack of intimacy with being in a 24

00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:55.460
-7 dynamic. It very much set it up that Ray's

00:47:55.460 --> 00:47:57.920
view, Colin's view, any view that we were given

00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.199
from any perspective in the movie was that 24

00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:03.820
-7 and intimacy do not mix. And the only way

00:48:03.820 --> 00:48:06.059
to have intimacy is to have what Colin asked

00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:09.719
for, which is a day off once a week. Colin asks

00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:13.239
for that from Ray. things don't work out after

00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:15.619
they try a day off yeah ray disappears and then

00:48:15.619 --> 00:48:17.440
colin sets that as one of his non -negotiables

00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:20.039
and relationships moving forward yeah obviously

00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:21.880
there's nothing wrong with not having a 24 7

00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.099
dynamic i think i probably know more kinky people

00:48:24.099 --> 00:48:26.900
who don't than people who do yeah the issue is

00:48:26.900 --> 00:48:29.420
that what that seemed to be saying is throughout

00:48:29.420 --> 00:48:32.039
the whole movie we've seen ray be cold distant

00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.400
emotionally unavailable private to the point

00:48:35.769 --> 00:48:38.010
of it being a flaw. Like Colin is really shut

00:48:38.010 --> 00:48:40.050
out of a huge chunk of Ray's life and doesn't

00:48:40.050 --> 00:48:43.550
really know anything about him. Yeah. And it

00:48:43.550 --> 00:48:46.989
sets it up as if that is a function of the power

00:48:46.989 --> 00:48:49.369
dynamic that they have. The warmest we ever see

00:48:49.369 --> 00:48:52.269
Ray acting towards Colin is during the day off

00:48:52.269 --> 00:48:53.769
that they do take where they act just like a

00:48:53.769 --> 00:48:56.610
vanilla couple. We see a brief moment of it in

00:48:56.610 --> 00:48:58.969
Ray when Colin is grieving the death of his mother

00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:01.789
and Ray softens towards him by relaxing some

00:49:01.789 --> 00:49:03.550
of the protocol. That's the only way that he

00:49:03.550 --> 00:49:07.309
is able to sort of express that. yeah um and

00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:10.010
we see that in colin moving forward and the sort

00:49:10.010 --> 00:49:11.889
of hopes for his future relationships being better

00:49:11.889 --> 00:49:14.070
that now he knows himself he knows his boundaries

00:49:14.070 --> 00:49:16.130
he knows to insist on that day off so we can

00:49:16.130 --> 00:49:17.570
at least assume things are going to start to

00:49:17.570 --> 00:49:20.329
improve for him yeah instead of at any point

00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:23.030
asking could intimacy be integrated into the

00:49:23.030 --> 00:49:26.969
dynamic because why couldn't it be yeah and even

00:49:26.969 --> 00:49:29.710
even if we accept that that colin just doesn't

00:49:29.710 --> 00:49:33.550
want a 24 7 dynamic the idea that his his ideal

00:49:33.550 --> 00:49:35.269
relationship is going to be one that one day

00:49:35.269 --> 00:49:37.650
a week it's a vanilla relationship and that's

00:49:37.650 --> 00:49:40.030
where the intimacy lives in that 24 hour period

00:49:40.030 --> 00:49:42.590
that's where he gets his little dose of intimacy

00:49:42.590 --> 00:49:44.949
to keep him going yeah yeah for the six days

00:49:44.949 --> 00:49:47.230
that are going to be cold distant cruel emotionally

00:49:47.230 --> 00:49:50.130
unavailable again like that is not what a healthy

00:49:50.130 --> 00:49:52.570
power dynamic looks like to me at least that's

00:49:52.570 --> 00:49:54.170
not a dynamic that i want and there are some

00:49:54.170 --> 00:49:56.139
people who like their their power exchange a

00:49:56.139 --> 00:49:59.039
lot more formal than what we do yeah but it should

00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:02.679
never be miserable and devoid of intimacy it's

00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:04.059
the most intimate thing that you can do with

00:50:04.059 --> 00:50:07.579
another person i think it's yeah yeah yeah that

00:50:07.579 --> 00:50:11.179
yeah that's really well almost perfectly described

00:50:11.179 --> 00:50:13.199
it's that kind of you you have to put them in

00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:17.179
separate boxes yeah um and there is a slight

00:50:17.179 --> 00:50:19.300
attempt to address that in the movie there's

00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:23.539
the conversation with the one of the only conversations

00:50:23.539 --> 00:50:25.739
that we see Colin have with somebody else in

00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:27.900
the group, another submissive in the group, where

00:50:27.900 --> 00:50:30.320
the other submissive makes reference to the fact

00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.639
that Ray is emotionally unavailable and not kind

00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.219
of intimate and says, oh, I couldn't live without

00:50:34.219 --> 00:50:37.380
kind of kissing. Yeah. So there is that kind

00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:40.519
of nod to it in that scene. But that is also

00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:42.239
part of a scene where that submissive basically

00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.260
says, your partner is a lot hotter than you are.

00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:47.219
Yeah. And I would. Yeah. That sort of thing.

00:50:47.860 --> 00:50:55.079
And those other characters. The group isn't sufficiently

00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:59.679
well drawn for anything they say to kind of carry

00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:01.719
a lot of weight. You're not going to remember

00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:06.820
that 10 second thing 40 minutes later when they're

00:51:06.820 --> 00:51:10.019
very clearly saying, if you want intimacy, it's

00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:15.880
over here. And if you want hard, intense kink

00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:20.030
and BDSM, it's over here. Yeah. And I think a

00:51:20.030 --> 00:51:22.730
bigger problem with none of the people in the

00:51:22.730 --> 00:51:24.409
group really being fleshed out and just not seeing

00:51:24.409 --> 00:51:26.349
a lot of their relationships is we're not presented

00:51:26.349 --> 00:51:28.510
with any contrast to that. So the submissive

00:51:28.510 --> 00:51:30.530
who says that he couldn't do without kissing,

00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:33.030
we don't know anything else about their relationship.

00:51:33.210 --> 00:51:36.110
We don't know if it is a 24 -7 dynamic. We don't

00:51:36.110 --> 00:51:37.909
even know if power exchange is involved outside

00:51:37.909 --> 00:51:41.110
of play at all. We don't know if it's a healthy

00:51:41.110 --> 00:51:43.190
relationship. We don't know if it's a happy relationship.

00:51:43.250 --> 00:51:44.769
And we don't know if it's a long -term relationship.

00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:47.599
we learn nothing about those characters yeah

00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:50.860
and if we did uh still keeping it close to colin's

00:51:50.860 --> 00:51:52.300
perspective throughout but he spends a lot of

00:51:52.300 --> 00:51:54.320
time with this group like have a few more conversations

00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:56.300
like that have him hanging out with them a little

00:51:56.300 --> 00:51:58.900
bit more and seeing how they are have them talk

00:51:58.900 --> 00:52:00.980
about the fact that he feels like that's what

00:52:00.980 --> 00:52:02.719
he's missing with ray and asking like how they

00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:05.099
make that work as part of kink it doesn't have

00:52:05.099 --> 00:52:07.599
to be a sort of sit down psa let me tell you

00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:10.260
how a relationship should be it's a normal part

00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:12.500
of the character's journey to look at other people's

00:52:12.500 --> 00:52:14.440
relationships i think probably we all do that

00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:15.739
sometimes look at other people's relationships

00:52:15.739 --> 00:52:18.599
and go they're doing that better than us those

00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:23.500
people why it's normal um show us colin having

00:52:23.500 --> 00:52:25.440
a bit of that and flesh out those relationships

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:28.559
and come to a different conclusion because like

00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:30.019
i keep coming back to this it's about the choices

00:52:30.019 --> 00:52:31.719
that are being made with this story it's not

00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.099
unrealistic for ray to be an it's not unrealistic

00:52:34.099 --> 00:52:36.760
for colin in the context of that relationship

00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:38.840
to think the only way to get some intimacy would

00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:40.619
be to have some sort of protected vanilla time

00:52:40.619 --> 00:52:43.659
to experience it but why are we telling that

00:52:43.659 --> 00:52:46.679
story why have we chosen that that's where that

00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:49.059
character ends up yeah when this could have been

00:52:49.059 --> 00:52:51.880
a story about colin setting his non -negotiables

00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:55.039
as i need intimacy i need affection i like power

00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:57.000
exchange but i don't want to feel like you don't

00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:00.119
respect or like me yeah like that's where it

00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.360
could have ended and a choice was made not to

00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:05.179
go in that direction and to instead send the

00:53:05.179 --> 00:53:07.619
message that intimacy is not part of kink because

00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:10.510
yeah colin ends up kinky But he's saying that

00:53:10.510 --> 00:53:12.750
he needs vanilla time to experience intimacy

00:53:12.750 --> 00:53:16.070
and love and affection. Yeah. Instead of integrating

00:53:16.070 --> 00:53:20.329
those two parts of himself. Yeah. And that, much

00:53:20.329 --> 00:53:23.730
as unhealthy dynamics exist, that is something

00:53:23.730 --> 00:53:26.150
that I don't think many kinky people come to

00:53:26.150 --> 00:53:29.170
as a conclusion. That idea that intimacy and

00:53:29.170 --> 00:53:31.329
kink can't mix. Most kinky people I know, they

00:53:31.329 --> 00:53:34.090
do see kink as highly, highly intimate, whether

00:53:34.090 --> 00:53:37.110
it's casual pickup play, a 24 -7 dynamic or anything

00:53:37.110 --> 00:53:39.480
in between. yeah yeah you're cracking up from

00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:43.159
some of the most hidden scary shameful intense

00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:44.739
parts of yourself and sharing them with another

00:53:44.739 --> 00:53:48.000
person yeah how would that not be intimate yeah

00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:50.219
and yeah the level of trust and the level of

00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:52.000
work that it takes to be able to do that with

00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:58.679
with someone yeah is is in itself a really intimate

00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:01.119
act well again i agree almost perfectly described

00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:04.179
i agree with all of that it's really frustrating

00:54:04.179 --> 00:54:08.949
that it presents that Presents kink and intimacy

00:54:08.949 --> 00:54:12.889
as a binary choice. Yeah. Rather than being.

00:54:14.309 --> 00:54:17.090
Integratable. Yeah. That's not a word. I just

00:54:17.090 --> 00:54:21.250
made up a word. It's a good one. In a way that

00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:25.090
most people would. Recognize. Yeah. I suppose.

00:54:25.389 --> 00:54:27.130
Because you wouldn't see that in any other type

00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:30.210
of relationship. No. Would you? Where kind of

00:54:30.210 --> 00:54:32.110
intimacy happens on a Sunday. But my perception

00:54:32.110 --> 00:54:34.530
is. You don't have people go. Okay. Well, we

00:54:34.530 --> 00:54:37.849
are intimate on a Sunday. And they're not. yeah

00:54:37.849 --> 00:54:41.190
six days yeah that works no and you wouldn't

00:54:41.190 --> 00:54:43.829
treat any other relationship style as if it was

00:54:43.829 --> 00:54:46.550
something that made it impossible to be affectionate

00:54:46.550 --> 00:54:49.269
and intimate with someone um and i think it ties

00:54:49.269 --> 00:54:51.489
into this perception people have that that kink

00:54:51.489 --> 00:54:54.230
is just a sex thing like submission and dominance

00:54:54.230 --> 00:54:56.349
and sadism and masochism are all just things

00:54:56.349 --> 00:54:59.130
you do to get off yeah and so the idea that you

00:54:59.130 --> 00:55:01.769
do that with someone for a bit so you both get

00:55:01.769 --> 00:55:03.570
off on it and then you go and you cuddle on the

00:55:03.570 --> 00:55:05.630
couch and you just be normal is a lot of people's

00:55:05.630 --> 00:55:07.469
perception of what kink is and for some people

00:55:07.469 --> 00:55:08.710
kink is just the thing they do in the bedroom

00:55:09.449 --> 00:55:11.170
But that doesn't mean that that's all that it's

00:55:11.170 --> 00:55:13.349
capable of being. And when you see a relationship

00:55:13.349 --> 00:55:15.429
where things like service and protocol are such

00:55:15.429 --> 00:55:17.789
a big part of it, that is showing kink. That

00:55:17.789 --> 00:55:20.110
is something that's well beyond that and is part

00:55:20.110 --> 00:55:22.329
of how people love and how people feel close.

00:55:22.550 --> 00:55:24.929
And it clearly doesn't stop Colin being in love

00:55:24.929 --> 00:55:27.530
with Ray and expressing intimacy and affection

00:55:27.530 --> 00:55:31.010
towards Ray. It's just not reciprocated. So why

00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:34.110
can't we see at least the potential for a dominant

00:55:34.110 --> 00:55:37.099
to approach it in the same way? Even if we don't

00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:38.739
see that relationship established, even if we

00:55:38.739 --> 00:55:42.079
don't see it happen with Colin and Ray, see Colin

00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.639
seeking that at the end instead of seeking a

00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:50.960
timeshare arrangement. Yeah, yeah. It goes back

00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:52.679
to that kind of alternate endings you could have

00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:57.079
had. There's potentially a really interesting,

00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:01.019
really quite emotionally charged sequence in

00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:02.619
the film where they're having that conversation

00:56:02.619 --> 00:56:07.239
and Colin is kind of saying, i want both of these

00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:09.760
things and ray saying i can only give you one

00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:12.760
of them yeah and then go well that's a bit shit

00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:14.820
in it but yeah i even know where i would put

00:56:14.820 --> 00:56:16.260
that conversation what i would have replaced

00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:18.500
because there's a scene in the movie where they're

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:22.739
in bed together um and colin says you know that

00:56:22.739 --> 00:56:26.460
i love you and ray said says uh yes but this

00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:30.500
isn't about that yeah fucking dangerous actually

00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:33.139
irresponsibly dangerous to have a character almost

00:56:33.139 --> 00:56:36.789
say the line that sadomasochism has nothing in

00:56:36.789 --> 00:56:39.610
common with human love yeah because that is a

00:56:39.610 --> 00:56:41.909
quote from one of the people involved in operation

00:56:41.909 --> 00:56:45.349
spanner yeah and that is the beginning of the

00:56:45.349 --> 00:56:48.389
last three decades of our community being criminalized

00:56:48.389 --> 00:56:50.090
pushed further and further out the mainstream

00:56:50.090 --> 00:56:53.090
and something that was highly driven by homophobia

00:56:53.090 --> 00:56:55.190
as well so if you're representing gay kinky people

00:56:55.190 --> 00:56:57.610
in a movie maybe don't resurrect the ghost of

00:56:57.610 --> 00:57:01.050
that yeah um but take that conversation out and

00:57:01.050 --> 00:57:03.980
replace it with colin saying i want something

00:57:03.980 --> 00:57:06.460
more loving and more intimate and more... Yeah,

00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:09.559
yeah. More like a normal relationship, but with

00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:12.960
all of this as well. And Ray going, I just don't

00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:14.900
have the capacity for that. I'm not capable of

00:57:14.900 --> 00:57:17.300
that. I can't give you what you need. Instead

00:57:17.300 --> 00:57:19.619
of saying, this isn't about that. Yeah, yeah.

00:57:19.619 --> 00:57:24.699
I'm not about that. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Totally agree.

00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:29.579
Totally agree. And it's really sad in a way.

00:57:29.739 --> 00:57:33.329
Yeah. That that's how that played out. You used

00:57:33.329 --> 00:57:35.269
a really interesting word when we were talking

00:57:35.269 --> 00:57:37.130
about it on the way home and kind of planning

00:57:37.130 --> 00:57:39.150
this episode as well about whether or not that

00:57:39.150 --> 00:57:41.329
was malicious on the part of the filmmakers.

00:57:42.090 --> 00:57:44.449
Yeah. And I don't want to believe it was malicious,

00:57:44.449 --> 00:57:47.210
but it still feels malicious to me. That's the

00:57:47.210 --> 00:57:49.489
word that comes back to me a lot is is malicious

00:57:49.489 --> 00:57:52.409
because I don't want to assume the worst of anybody.

00:57:52.550 --> 00:57:54.489
And I think given the amount of research and

00:57:54.489 --> 00:57:56.250
care that went into some elements of this movie.

00:57:56.309 --> 00:57:59.309
Yeah. Like I have a hard time imagining that

00:57:59.309 --> 00:58:01.369
this was designed as an anti -kink propaganda

00:58:01.369 --> 00:58:04.730
piece. But that is unfortunately what a lot of

00:58:04.730 --> 00:58:07.849
it ends up smelling like, which is really frustrating

00:58:07.849 --> 00:58:11.190
because it felt like, like I sometimes make a

00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:13.429
little bit more allowance for movies that are

00:58:13.429 --> 00:58:17.550
just trash. Like I think in, again, not to compare

00:58:17.550 --> 00:58:19.170
and contrast too much, but we did an episode

00:58:19.170 --> 00:58:21.489
quite recently on Fifty Shades and I feel like

00:58:21.489 --> 00:58:24.409
we tried to find some positives in it and give

00:58:24.409 --> 00:58:26.750
it a little nod when it did things right. Like

00:58:26.750 --> 00:58:28.769
we quite liked the negotiation scene. Like there

00:58:28.769 --> 00:58:30.590
were a few moments of how submission was portrayed

00:58:30.590 --> 00:58:32.710
that I was like, oh, I relate to that. Because

00:58:32.710 --> 00:58:35.789
it's a garbage movie. Yeah, yeah. You sort of

00:58:35.789 --> 00:58:37.530
give it a little clap when it does all right.

00:58:37.809 --> 00:58:40.550
When a movie is this good and this well -crafted

00:58:40.550 --> 00:58:43.070
and has so much research go into it, it's like,

00:58:43.090 --> 00:58:45.210
actually, you do not get brownie points for kind

00:58:45.210 --> 00:58:48.690
of doing all right at times. Yeah. You are responsible

00:58:48.690 --> 00:58:50.750
for the things that you fuck up on a much bigger

00:58:50.750 --> 00:58:53.210
level. Yeah, yeah. It's like the difference between...

00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:55.599
If a wild animal gets loose in your house, like

00:58:55.599 --> 00:58:57.800
a bird comes in and knocks over your TV and smashes

00:58:57.800 --> 00:58:59.559
it. Yeah. You're not really going to be mad at

00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:02.139
the bird. It's just an annoying situation. Your

00:59:02.139 --> 00:59:03.659
best friend comes around, looks you dead in the

00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:05.380
face and knocks your TV onto the floor and stands

00:59:05.380 --> 00:59:07.280
on the screen. Yeah. You're going to be pissed.

00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:09.860
Yeah. And that's how I feel about pillion. It's

00:59:09.860 --> 00:59:11.719
like you knew exactly what you were doing, or

00:59:11.719 --> 00:59:13.880
at least you should have done. Yeah. And that's

00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:17.360
not sitting well. Yeah. I think that's really

00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:20.219
valid because, like I say, compare that to...

00:59:20.819 --> 00:59:22.800
Compared to my experience of Fifty Shades, when

00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:24.440
we recorded that episode, that was the first

00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:26.880
time I'd seen that film. Yeah. I'd never read

00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:29.900
the book, avoiding them like the plague. But

00:59:29.900 --> 00:59:32.239
I went into it with it having such a reputation

00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:35.659
as being not just a bad movie, but a bad representation

00:59:35.659 --> 00:59:40.760
of kink and BDSM. Yeah. Which, to be fair, both

00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:42.860
of those things are true. But it wasn't as bad

00:59:42.860 --> 00:59:44.940
as I expected. Actually, there were some positives

00:59:44.940 --> 00:59:48.179
to it. Whereas with this movie, I think the expectation

00:59:48.179 --> 00:59:51.860
going in. was that it would be of a higher standard

00:59:51.860 --> 00:59:54.400
than that. So you hold it to a higher standard

00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:58.260
than that. I'd be dead interested to have a conversation

00:59:58.260 --> 01:00:01.179
with the people who were in it. The group of

01:00:01.179 --> 01:00:04.440
men that are in the film, I'd be dead interested

01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:07.000
to have a conversation with them about it and

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:11.179
see how they feel about how their community has

01:00:11.179 --> 01:00:13.710
been represented. yeah and how much they knew

01:00:13.710 --> 01:00:15.769
about like how it ended like did they see the

01:00:15.769 --> 01:00:18.230
whole script did they know everything yeah yeah

01:00:18.230 --> 01:00:20.750
yeah it would be really interesting and it's

01:00:20.750 --> 01:00:23.130
been interesting seeing reactions across like

01:00:23.130 --> 01:00:25.130
i posted about the movie on tiktok so i got a

01:00:25.130 --> 01:00:26.670
lot in the comments seen a lot of people talk

01:00:26.670 --> 01:00:29.650
about it on fetlife real range of reactions to

01:00:29.650 --> 01:00:32.309
it including within the king community some people

01:00:32.309 --> 01:00:34.650
absolutely unprisically loved it and and that's

01:00:34.650 --> 01:00:36.630
great i love that for them i wish i had and there

01:00:36.630 --> 01:00:38.050
are some people who have been much more strongly

01:00:38.050 --> 01:00:40.489
negative about it than us And a lot in between.

01:00:40.530 --> 01:00:42.489
A lot of people with that same conflict as us.

01:00:42.550 --> 01:00:44.550
Where it's like, damn, that was a really well

01:00:44.550 --> 01:00:46.309
-made movie. Brilliant acting, brilliant directing,

01:00:46.369 --> 01:00:49.429
brilliant everything. Yeah. But it's not left

01:00:49.429 --> 01:00:51.630
a very nice taste in my mouth afterwards. And

01:00:51.630 --> 01:00:54.309
that's the group that we've fallen into. Yeah.

01:00:54.849 --> 01:00:58.050
Yeah. Which is such a shame. Yeah. Yeah. Wanted

01:00:58.050 --> 01:00:59.789
to love it. Wanted this to be really positive.

01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:02.019
We were looking forward to this being a really

01:01:02.019 --> 01:01:04.039
positive episode, weren't we? Yeah, like this

01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:06.840
was our date night. I had a streaming cold and

01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:08.599
banging headache as well. And I toughed it out

01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:10.260
because I was so excited. I kind of wish I'd

01:01:10.260 --> 01:01:13.739
stayed home and napped. I am glad I've seen it,

01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.559
though, because it's interesting. And regardless

01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:18.780
of whether I end up sitting on the side of the

01:01:18.780 --> 01:01:20.380
fence where I'm like, overall, I think it was

01:01:20.380 --> 01:01:22.119
good or overall, I think it was bad or actually

01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:25.110
really strongly both. like this movie is going

01:01:25.110 --> 01:01:27.030
to set the tone for a lot of comments about bdsm

01:01:27.030 --> 01:01:29.690
for probably the next 10 years yeah it's not

01:01:29.690 --> 01:01:32.710
necessarily like a huge huge mainstream blockbuster

01:01:32.710 --> 01:01:34.949
of a movie but it's going to be the movie people

01:01:34.949 --> 01:01:37.789
ask you about when you say you're kinky like

01:01:37.789 --> 01:01:39.469
people do now with 50 shades and they do with

01:01:39.469 --> 01:01:41.949
secretary yeah it's going to be one of those

01:01:41.949 --> 01:01:44.550
where you are put on the back foot to defend

01:01:44.550 --> 01:01:46.889
your relationship in the context of pillion yeah

01:01:46.889 --> 01:01:48.630
i think about the questions that i get asked

01:01:48.630 --> 01:01:50.869
quite a lot now is is there love in your relationship

01:01:50.869 --> 01:01:52.630
and do you ever want a day off and it's like

01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:54.940
i'm not ever offended by those questions they're

01:01:54.940 --> 01:01:56.440
completely reasonable things for people to ask

01:01:56.440 --> 01:01:59.840
but that perception that that is in question

01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:01.699
or is that is hard to believe is going to go

01:02:01.699 --> 01:02:05.179
through the roof yeah yeah um yeah and i one

01:02:05.179 --> 01:02:06.960
of my sort of first things i said about the movie

01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:11.179
after we saw it was like if i am given a choice

01:02:11.179 --> 01:02:13.400
between explaining my relationship to someone

01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:15.500
who has only seen 50 shades and someone who has

01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:18.280
only seen pillion which would i prefer and i'm

01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:19.960
not saying it's a better movie and i'm not saying

01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:21.699
it's better representation i'm not saying it's

01:02:21.699 --> 01:02:23.420
better at anything but i would have an easier

01:02:23.420 --> 01:02:25.980
conversation with the 50 shades fan yeah because

01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:28.039
at least they know what contract negotiations

01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:35.980
yeah yeah fair fair um i have just one more thing

01:02:35.980 --> 01:02:38.280
that it's a fairly minor thing but i found it

01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:40.440
i just found it dead interesting that kind of

01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:44.639
end sequence to the film the bits where Colin

01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:47.500
is out with his dad looking for Ray. And he goes

01:02:47.500 --> 01:02:51.340
to the friend group. Yeah. And asks them if they've

01:02:51.340 --> 01:02:54.780
seen Ray. And we don't hear the conversation.

01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:57.760
But the tone of the body language is, no, we

01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:00.480
don't know where he is. Yeah. And I can't quite

01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:02.300
work out whether that is in a dismissive way

01:03:02.300 --> 01:03:04.599
or in a, no, we just don't. When I watched it,

01:03:04.619 --> 01:03:06.280
I took it as they just don't know where it is.

01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:08.219
But a review I've read since said that you can

01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:10.159
actually hear one of them say, fuck off. I have

01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:12.340
not verified that. Right. But if that's the case,

01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:14.320
they would definitely. Right. Actively hostile.

01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:16.420
Yeah. But whether they just couldn't help or

01:03:16.420 --> 01:03:18.880
didn't want to. Yeah, yeah. The end result is

01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:20.420
the same. We never see Colin interact with that

01:03:20.420 --> 01:03:23.920
group again. No. So I guess there's two things

01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:28.539
there. The first thing that I thought of was

01:03:28.539 --> 01:03:31.400
when I watched that initially, I thought, well,

01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:33.219
that's not how that community would respond.

01:03:33.619 --> 01:03:37.840
Yeah. They would sympathise with Colin. And surely

01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.280
they would know what had happened because they

01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:43.130
were all mates. But then I thought about it a

01:03:43.130 --> 01:03:45.110
little bit more and I thought about kind of the

01:03:45.110 --> 01:03:49.010
local community around here. And that does sometimes

01:03:49.010 --> 01:03:50.949
happen where people just drop off the face of

01:03:50.949 --> 01:03:53.789
the earth. Yeah. And you don't see them for a

01:03:53.789 --> 01:03:56.409
while. We've done it because we're choosing to

01:03:56.409 --> 01:03:58.829
prioritise time going to events that are a little

01:03:58.829 --> 01:04:00.789
bit further afield at the moment. So we're not

01:04:00.789 --> 01:04:03.690
as present in our very local community as we

01:04:03.690 --> 01:04:06.110
have been in the past. So people just do just

01:04:06.110 --> 01:04:09.219
kind of drift in and out. Yeah. and disappear

01:04:09.219 --> 01:04:11.179
for a little bit. And then you see them six months

01:04:11.179 --> 01:04:12.500
later. It's like, oh, fucking hell, I haven't

01:04:12.500 --> 01:04:15.860
seen you for ages. How are you doing? And it's

01:04:15.860 --> 01:04:19.400
almost quite a sad commentary on the nature of

01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:21.199
our community, I suppose, where that happens.

01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:23.739
Some people make really close friendships and

01:04:23.739 --> 01:04:25.099
they see each other a lot and they're really

01:04:25.099 --> 01:04:28.219
involved in each other's lives. But there are

01:04:28.219 --> 01:04:30.760
also people that you get to know quite well and

01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:34.019
have a lot of positive feelings towards who just

01:04:34.019 --> 01:04:37.679
disappear. Yeah. Often for completely benign

01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:39.699
reasons. It left me feeling a little bit sad

01:04:39.699 --> 01:04:43.880
about that. It just feels a little bit weird.

01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:47.300
When I think about it too much, I go, hmm. And

01:04:47.300 --> 01:04:48.980
I don't know whether that's because we're coming

01:04:48.980 --> 01:04:52.840
into it with a heightened sense of privacy. So

01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:54.900
we don't share a lot of stuff with other people

01:04:54.900 --> 01:04:57.559
in the community or we kind of keep ourselves

01:04:57.559 --> 01:04:59.599
a little bit guarded and stuff like that. But

01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:01.860
there is that thing of it felt really surprising

01:05:01.860 --> 01:05:03.800
at the time for Ray to just drop off the face

01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:06.139
of the planet in the way that he did. But when

01:05:06.139 --> 01:05:08.500
I thought about it a little bit more. it became

01:05:08.500 --> 01:05:13.099
less surprising yeah but no less sad yeah i think

01:05:13.099 --> 01:05:15.719
the thing that made that feel a bit less believable

01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:17.480
to me is there's a bit of a difference between

01:05:17.480 --> 01:05:19.519
your local munch that as you say people do just

01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:21.880
just stop going suddenly and might be for no

01:05:21.880 --> 01:05:23.559
reason at all you might never find out the reason

01:05:23.559 --> 01:05:25.260
they're just not there anymore yeah it's a bit

01:05:25.260 --> 01:05:28.000
different between that and an actual group of

01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.269
friends that you are organizing stuff with like

01:05:31.269 --> 01:05:33.110
the camping trip that they all went on yeah yeah

01:05:33.110 --> 01:05:34.949
like this is a group of people who they don't

01:05:34.949 --> 01:05:36.389
just happen to know each other through a local

01:05:36.389 --> 01:05:38.849
munch they are friends they are their own sub

01:05:38.849 --> 01:05:41.269
-community i think particularly from what i know

01:05:41.269 --> 01:05:43.050
of the leather community they form really close

01:05:43.050 --> 01:05:45.710
bonds they they have like leather families and

01:05:45.710 --> 01:05:47.150
that doesn't mean that there won't be people

01:05:47.150 --> 01:05:49.010
who just dip in and out there always are and

01:05:49.010 --> 01:05:50.809
people who do just go stall their friends and

01:05:50.809 --> 01:05:53.190
move on and that seems to be sort of set up as

01:05:53.190 --> 01:05:56.349
kind of ray's pattern almost it's as much as

01:05:56.349 --> 01:05:58.050
we can see anything of him he seems quite willing

01:05:58.050 --> 01:06:00.150
to to cut and run when things aren't going the

01:06:00.150 --> 01:06:03.929
way he wants them to yeah yeah um but i think

01:06:03.929 --> 01:06:06.469
what i found again sort of left a bit of a nasty

01:06:06.469 --> 01:06:09.610
taste for me was the way that the group didn't

01:06:09.610 --> 01:06:12.590
so continue to support and include colin yeah

01:06:12.590 --> 01:06:15.869
like okay raised it to everybody so why are you

01:06:15.869 --> 01:06:18.630
why are you cutting colin out even if that review

01:06:18.630 --> 01:06:20.309
was wrong about them saying fuck off like i said

01:06:20.309 --> 01:06:22.469
i cannot verify i'm not going back to the cinema

01:06:22.469 --> 01:06:25.170
just to check that one line um but you never

01:06:25.170 --> 01:06:27.500
see colin interact with them again and it would

01:06:27.500 --> 01:06:30.019
have felt different if the movie had been like

01:06:30.019 --> 01:06:32.199
okay this relationship was a shit show but colin

01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:34.900
has found his kink family it's like if that was

01:06:34.900 --> 01:06:37.059
the the love story here of colin becoming part

01:06:37.059 --> 01:06:38.940
of that group and it's like well ray can ditch

01:06:38.940 --> 01:06:41.300
if he wants to because colin's great got got

01:06:41.300 --> 01:06:43.659
his mates yeah yeah like that would have again

01:06:43.659 --> 01:06:46.300
sat better as a representation of kink community

01:06:46.300 --> 01:06:48.530
even if we didn't get a positive representation

01:06:48.530 --> 01:06:50.670
of kink relationships yeah because kink community

01:06:50.670 --> 01:06:52.710
is really important like some of the the best

01:06:52.710 --> 01:06:54.510
relationships i have are with friends that i've

01:06:54.510 --> 01:06:56.510
met or got closer to through the kink community

01:06:56.510 --> 01:06:59.909
a lot of what i've learned about myself has been

01:06:59.909 --> 01:07:02.650
through friendships with other submissives and

01:07:02.650 --> 01:07:05.710
like s types in general yeah because much as

01:07:05.710 --> 01:07:08.190
play and relationships with dominance is really

01:07:08.190 --> 01:07:10.809
important to me like figuring out who i was and

01:07:10.809 --> 01:07:13.050
what my boundaries were and and how to stay safe

01:07:13.050 --> 01:07:15.369
and how to look after my well -being and how

01:07:15.369 --> 01:07:17.829
to get through sub frenzy without getting broken

01:07:17.829 --> 01:07:20.670
yeah i needed my my sub friends for that yeah

01:07:20.670 --> 01:07:22.949
yeah and something that showed that positively

01:07:22.949 --> 01:07:25.670
would have undone a lot of the stuff that i or

01:07:25.670 --> 01:07:27.110
it wouldn't have necessarily undone the stuff

01:07:27.110 --> 01:07:28.809
that i didn't like but it would have made it

01:07:28.809 --> 01:07:30.690
more forgivable because it's like okay but some

01:07:30.690 --> 01:07:33.269
really good representation here of one of the

01:07:33.269 --> 01:07:36.349
best things about kink community yeah yeah show

01:07:36.349 --> 01:07:38.909
a relationship between colin and another sub

01:07:38.909 --> 01:07:44.190
that is not adversarial yeah yeah yeah true so

01:07:44.190 --> 01:07:46.090
i totally agree with that although i will just

01:07:46.090 --> 01:07:49.079
say there is there is a perspective which you

01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:52.219
have direct experience of of the the person who

01:07:52.219 --> 01:07:55.300
was introduced to the friend group and then the

01:07:55.300 --> 01:07:57.300
relationship breaks up with the person who introduced

01:07:57.300 --> 01:07:59.940
them to the friend group going okay well i can't

01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:01.739
hang out with those anymore because they're they're

01:08:01.739 --> 01:08:05.099
friends you know yes you're talking about hope

01:08:05.099 --> 01:08:08.480
you're calling her out i am gently calling her

01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:11.539
that's fair yeah when me and hope split up a

01:08:11.539 --> 01:08:13.739
hundred percent i was trying to get her to hang

01:08:13.739 --> 01:08:16.819
out with our friends who i had introduced her

01:08:16.819 --> 01:08:18.520
to who had been my friends first but were definitely

01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:20.840
our friends and they were reaching out to her

01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:22.979
saying like hey like we're your friends too you've

01:08:22.979 --> 01:08:24.699
both been through a breakup let us hang out with

01:08:24.699 --> 01:08:26.819
you and she was like they're your friends i don't

01:08:26.819 --> 01:08:28.600
want to see your friends but she got over it

01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:30.279
eventually and they will continue to bad to her

01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:32.479
until she did um and for anybody sitting there

01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:35.060
confused being like this is new law who is hope

01:08:35.060 --> 01:08:38.579
uh you will have seen hope and known hope by

01:08:38.579 --> 01:08:40.159
a different name when she used to appear on my

01:08:40.159 --> 01:08:41.819
tiktok and you will get to know her quite a lot

01:08:41.819 --> 01:08:43.689
better In a couple of weeks, because she is coming

01:08:43.689 --> 01:08:47.130
on the podcast. Woo! Woo! Excellent stuff. Very

01:08:47.130 --> 01:08:49.569
exciting. Yeah. Very excited for that. And we

01:08:49.569 --> 01:08:52.050
bully her in person as well. Yeah. That's how

01:08:52.050 --> 01:08:54.010
friendship works. That's how friendship works.

01:08:54.310 --> 01:08:56.550
Yeah. So yeah, there was just that interesting

01:08:56.550 --> 01:08:58.550
thing about the community, because again, there

01:08:58.550 --> 01:09:00.630
were attempts throughout it to show them as a

01:09:00.630 --> 01:09:02.449
bit of a family group, I suppose, or a bit of

01:09:02.449 --> 01:09:04.810
a friend group. Yeah. Even some scenes where

01:09:04.810 --> 01:09:08.350
Ray, in montage, for like a second, where Ray

01:09:08.350 --> 01:09:10.359
smiled. and seem to be having a good time right

01:09:10.359 --> 01:09:14.000
shocking but yeah it was just a curious thing

01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:15.699
for me to think about having quite a different

01:09:15.699 --> 01:09:18.539
perspective on it in the moment than I did when

01:09:18.539 --> 01:09:20.729
I thought about it for a few minutes something

01:09:20.729 --> 01:09:22.170
that we have touched on but i wanted to talk

01:09:22.170 --> 01:09:23.989
about a little bit more is the way that this

01:09:23.989 --> 01:09:26.949
movie has been marketed promoted covered by the

01:09:26.949 --> 01:09:28.909
media and it's always hard with this stuff to

01:09:28.909 --> 01:09:31.609
know how much of it is down to you know the fault

01:09:31.609 --> 01:09:34.710
of of any one person is this a director's choice

01:09:34.710 --> 01:09:37.029
is this an actor's choice is this just what the

01:09:37.029 --> 01:09:39.069
media have done with it is it the way that the

01:09:39.069 --> 01:09:41.430
the studio behind the movie is promoting it there's

01:09:41.430 --> 01:09:45.300
a lot going on but this was The trailer definitely

01:09:45.300 --> 01:09:47.020
showed that there was some difficulties with

01:09:47.020 --> 01:09:48.939
intimacy and some tension and unhappiness in

01:09:48.939 --> 01:09:51.100
the relationship. But the impression I got from

01:09:51.100 --> 01:09:54.100
it is this is something that would be addressed

01:09:54.100 --> 01:09:56.560
in the movie and that both characters will be

01:09:56.560 --> 01:09:58.619
brought into working on, which obviously isn't

01:09:58.619 --> 01:10:01.600
how it played out. But more so than the trailer,

01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.600
it's all of the kind of the media buzz around

01:10:04.600 --> 01:10:08.020
it was describing it as a rom -com. Everything

01:10:08.020 --> 01:10:09.979
I've seen before it came out described it as

01:10:09.979 --> 01:10:11.760
a rom -com and even some of the reviews since,

01:10:11.939 --> 01:10:16.310
which is just... staggering lack of genre knowledge

01:10:16.310 --> 01:10:20.909
it has comedy moments and it has romantic elements

01:10:20.909 --> 01:10:24.970
but it shouldn't be described as that um and

01:10:24.970 --> 01:10:27.449
there were a lot of articles talking a lot like

01:10:27.449 --> 01:10:30.569
really playing up how sexually how sexually explicit

01:10:30.569 --> 01:10:34.270
it was and it was like we we saw full -on hard

01:10:34.270 --> 01:10:37.489
penis yes but people describing it as like raunchy

01:10:37.489 --> 01:10:39.449
and stuff like that it's like it's not really

01:10:39.449 --> 01:10:42.289
it's got three sex scenes in none of them explicitly

01:10:42.289 --> 01:10:45.539
consensual two of them particularly questionable

01:10:45.539 --> 01:10:48.659
two of them very very awkward at least on Colin's

01:10:48.659 --> 01:10:50.539
part he doesn't really know what he's doing yeah

01:10:50.539 --> 01:10:54.260
like it's got elements to it that were a little

01:10:54.260 --> 01:10:56.319
bit hot but I wouldn't say like this is a really

01:10:56.319 --> 01:10:59.319
hot and sexy movie to watch that's not what I

01:10:59.319 --> 01:11:01.560
got from it I think the sex scene at the campsite

01:11:01.560 --> 01:11:03.460
is the only one where it's like that's pretty

01:11:03.460 --> 01:11:07.359
hot and that's it yeah um so marketing it driven

01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:10.060
by you're gonna you're gonna see Alexander Skarsgård's

01:11:10.060 --> 01:11:14.100
dick It's a weird choice. And you don't. It's

01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:16.380
a prosthetic. You don't even get to see Alexander

01:11:16.380 --> 01:11:21.420
Skarsgård's dick. Day ruined. It was a good prosthetic,

01:11:21.420 --> 01:11:25.680
though. It was a very good prosthetic. I think

01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:30.720
there's something... You're absolutely right

01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:34.560
about the romantic comedies. From our perspective,

01:11:34.859 --> 01:11:36.819
probably not very raunchy, probably not very

01:11:36.819 --> 01:11:41.180
hot. But again, going back to who these reviewers

01:11:41.180 --> 01:11:45.279
are, I totally agree with you. A little bit of

01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:47.100
mismarketing, but I can see how they got there

01:11:47.100 --> 01:11:53.659
with it. Weren't you saying that there were some

01:11:53.659 --> 01:11:58.770
interviews with the two main actors? kind of

01:11:58.770 --> 01:12:00.909
asking how they dealt with the sex scenes as

01:12:00.909 --> 01:12:03.090
well and that i think we definitely can't blame

01:12:03.090 --> 01:12:05.729
any anyone from the the movie making side for

01:12:05.729 --> 01:12:07.670
that that's just an irritation i have with the

01:12:07.670 --> 01:12:10.050
media is since we've seen it and since i've been

01:12:10.050 --> 01:12:11.630
sort of looking at what other people have been

01:12:11.630 --> 01:12:13.270
saying and stuff obviously my algorithm knows

01:12:13.270 --> 01:12:15.170
i'm interested and is showing me everything and

01:12:15.170 --> 01:12:17.909
it seems like almost everything that i'm being

01:12:17.909 --> 01:12:21.970
shown is the the two main actors being asked

01:12:21.970 --> 01:12:24.050
like was it not really scary and really awkward

01:12:24.050 --> 01:12:25.729
and really uncomfortable having to pretend to

01:12:25.729 --> 01:12:28.130
have gay sex like how did you deal with all the

01:12:28.130 --> 01:12:29.930
pretend gay sex you were having and it's like

01:12:29.930 --> 01:12:33.250
they're fucking actors and they would have read

01:12:33.250 --> 01:12:34.989
the script before they signed up they were clearly

01:12:34.989 --> 01:12:36.710
comfortable with what the characters are going

01:12:36.710 --> 01:12:39.529
to be doing yeah yeah it's just bizarre to me

01:12:39.529 --> 01:12:41.470
that that's the most interesting thing that you

01:12:41.470 --> 01:12:44.069
can think to ask them about about this movie

01:12:44.069 --> 01:12:47.409
which like whether, like I said, whether I end

01:12:47.409 --> 01:12:49.409
up thinking about it in positive or negative

01:12:49.409 --> 01:12:51.310
terms is going to end up as one of the sort of

01:12:51.310 --> 01:12:54.869
defining movies about BDSM. And you're sitting

01:12:54.869 --> 01:12:57.569
down to ask the characters like, oh, was it icky

01:12:57.569 --> 01:13:01.449
having to do gay stuff? Yeah. Just embarrassing.

01:13:01.609 --> 01:13:04.029
Get it together. Yeah, yeah. Especially when

01:13:04.029 --> 01:13:05.430
you consider some of the shit that Alexander

01:13:05.430 --> 01:13:09.529
Skarsgård got up to in... True Blood. True Blood.

01:13:09.909 --> 01:13:13.850
Yeah. I think he's okay with it. I think he's

01:13:13.850 --> 01:13:15.210
probably all right with it. I think he'll be

01:13:15.210 --> 01:13:17.449
all right. A bit of a shock to the system coming

01:13:17.449 --> 01:13:21.489
from Harry Potter, I suppose. Harry Melling.

01:13:21.550 --> 01:13:24.529
Harry Melling. He has definitely done other stuff

01:13:24.529 --> 01:13:26.149
since. I don't think anything that I've seen,

01:13:26.189 --> 01:13:28.250
but he didn't go straight from Harry Potter to

01:13:28.250 --> 01:13:31.670
Pillion. That would be a leap. Yeah, that would

01:13:31.670 --> 01:13:36.989
have been... Anyway. And we did have a conversation,

01:13:37.189 --> 01:13:38.649
obviously, because we can't help ourselves. We

01:13:38.649 --> 01:13:40.770
did have a conversation about Alexander Skarsgård's

01:13:40.770 --> 01:13:43.609
penis. I knew immediately that it was a prosthetic

01:13:43.609 --> 01:13:48.670
mix. I did. I did because I keep seeing TikToks

01:13:48.670 --> 01:13:51.409
from an intimacy coordinator talking about their

01:13:51.409 --> 01:13:55.369
job. And as soon as we saw a shot of Harry Melling's

01:13:55.369 --> 01:13:57.949
hand around it, I was like, OK, so that's prosthetic.

01:13:58.050 --> 01:14:00.789
There is no way any intimacy coordinator would

01:14:00.789 --> 01:14:02.670
have signed off on someone touching Alexander

01:14:02.670 --> 01:14:05.569
Skarsgård erect penis. Yeah, that's fair. No

01:14:05.569 --> 01:14:07.729
chance. And it had a massive Prince Albert piercing.

01:14:08.310 --> 01:14:10.689
Yeah. And I don't know, maybe he does. Maybe

01:14:10.689 --> 01:14:13.350
he does. The funniest thing, though, was our

01:14:13.350 --> 01:14:15.390
different reactions to the size of it. Yeah.

01:14:15.970 --> 01:14:18.189
Because I was like, fucking hell, that's massive.

01:14:19.109 --> 01:14:23.529
That looks correct, yes. That's what I expect

01:14:23.529 --> 01:14:29.489
in my life. Yeah. Even to the point where you

01:14:29.489 --> 01:14:30.850
said you looked at it and you said, yeah, it

01:14:30.850 --> 01:14:33.930
looks about the same size as yours. Yeah. I maintain

01:14:33.930 --> 01:14:37.140
that it does. you have this delusion that you

01:14:37.140 --> 01:14:40.079
are slightly above average yes and that is not

01:14:40.079 --> 01:14:43.840
the case from the person who has to like expand

01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:49.640
to accommodate but yeah you suspected it was

01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:51.220
a prosthetic because you thought it was unreasonably

01:14:51.220 --> 01:14:54.760
big yes and i i was fully prepared to accept

01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:56.760
that that was a real looking dick aside from

01:14:56.760 --> 01:14:59.600
what they were doing with it but much as we're

01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:02.140
having fun chatting about prosthetic like that's

01:15:02.140 --> 01:15:03.579
another thing that the media has had way more

01:15:03.579 --> 01:15:06.199
focus on than i think is yeah yeah like it's

01:15:06.199 --> 01:15:08.380
immature like we can be a little bit childish

01:15:08.380 --> 01:15:10.539
on our sex podcast in the last 10 minutes but

01:15:10.539 --> 01:15:13.720
yeah when like movie reviewers are really focusing

01:15:13.720 --> 01:15:15.859
on that like interviewers are asking more about

01:15:15.859 --> 01:15:17.600
that than they are about the content it's like

01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:20.819
yeah yeah that's frustrating yeah where's your

01:15:20.819 --> 01:15:25.500
where's your focus where's you yeah yeah artistic

01:15:25.500 --> 01:15:29.600
whatever professionalism i suppose um so yeah

01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:33.939
discussions of prosthetic penises aside um i

01:15:33.939 --> 01:15:35.960
guess we have some quite mixed feelings i think

01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:38.319
is is the conclusion for that there are there

01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.359
is so much about it i i feel like we've spent

01:15:41.359 --> 01:15:43.439
a lot of time in this episode kind of talking

01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:45.399
about the things that we didn't like about it

01:15:45.399 --> 01:15:46.899
and i'll be interested to see how the balance

01:15:46.899 --> 01:15:50.189
is when we get to the final episode But there

01:15:50.189 --> 01:15:53.109
is so much in that movie, which was really good,

01:15:53.229 --> 01:15:55.369
really well acted, really well made. A lot of

01:15:55.369 --> 01:15:58.590
the representation felt quite accurate and quite

01:15:58.590 --> 01:16:02.090
fair and quite respectful and authentic. But

01:16:02.090 --> 01:16:06.970
the bit that let it down, the whole thing down,

01:16:07.189 --> 01:16:10.590
you can't forgive all of the, you can't forgive

01:16:10.590 --> 01:16:12.829
that for all of the good stuff, I think is probably.

01:16:13.340 --> 01:16:16.279
where we ended up with it yeah i kept thinking

01:16:16.279 --> 01:16:18.520
like as we were sort of watching the end of the

01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:19.939
movie and as we were driving home afterwards

01:16:19.939 --> 01:16:22.979
um we've we've mentioned a few other kinky movies

01:16:22.979 --> 01:16:25.060
in this episode but something i keep coming back

01:16:25.060 --> 01:16:28.039
to is the bit in secretary sort of getting on

01:16:28.039 --> 01:16:30.439
towards the end of the film where the dominant

01:16:30.439 --> 01:16:33.439
who is a another dominant who has some communication

01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.420
issues but a lot more a lot more depth and a

01:16:36.420 --> 01:16:38.140
lot more vulnerability and i do quite like him

01:16:38.140 --> 01:16:41.439
for all his flaws he says uh we can't we can't

01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:45.000
do this seven days a week 24 hours a day and

01:16:45.000 --> 01:16:46.840
the submissive looks at him and goes why not

01:16:46.840 --> 01:16:50.500
yeah and it's like give me that give me a submissive

01:16:50.500 --> 01:16:52.359
who knows what they want and what they want is

01:16:52.359 --> 01:16:54.960
unhinged yeah give me a submissive who actively

01:16:54.960 --> 01:16:57.260
chases a dominant that has a lot of agency give

01:16:57.260 --> 01:16:59.340
me a submissive that is devoted enough to piss

01:16:59.340 --> 01:17:02.439
themselves but that we still see love and romance

01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:05.500
in the relationship like give me weird along

01:17:05.500 --> 01:17:08.220
with affection yeah why have we not had this

01:17:08.220 --> 01:17:11.060
since 2002 because i know that we can do better

01:17:11.449 --> 01:17:13.550
That movie has its issues. That movie has a lot

01:17:13.550 --> 01:17:15.130
of the same issues that we have picked apart

01:17:15.130 --> 01:17:17.529
pillion for and that we picked apart Fifty Shades

01:17:17.529 --> 01:17:19.210
about and that we'll probably pick apart every

01:17:19.210 --> 01:17:23.010
movie we watch about. Yeah, yeah. But why don't

01:17:23.010 --> 01:17:27.029
we have that but better? Yeah. 23 years later

01:17:27.029 --> 01:17:28.989
and that hasn't been taught. It's still waiting.

01:17:29.390 --> 01:17:32.529
Yeah. Yeah. There we go. And I thought that we

01:17:32.529 --> 01:17:34.270
might be going to get it this time but we did

01:17:34.270 --> 01:17:51.960
not. The search continues. Thanks for listening

01:17:51.960 --> 01:17:53.939
to this week's episode of Don't Scare the Newbies.

01:17:54.140 --> 01:17:56.520
You can support us on Patreon for bonus content

01:17:56.520 --> 01:17:59.380
and head to carisel .com for my blog and links

01:17:59.380 --> 01:18:01.840
to everywhere else that you can follow me. See

01:18:01.840 --> 01:18:02.560
you next time.