Welcome to Don't Scare the Newbies, a podcast
where we talk kink, raw and unfiltered. I'm Carizal,
a lifestyle submissive in a 24 -7 dynamic who
likes their kink heavy, intense and scary. And
I'm S, Carizal's dominant who knows how to deliver
all of the above. And we're back to kinky movies
because we absolutely will disrupt our recording
schedule for Men in Leather and Real Doms is
still playing sad piano. We are, of course, talking
about pillion. Eat your heart out, Barry Norman.
so pillion we went to see that oh how long ago
was it now five days ago something like that
and i feel like i there's a part of me that wished
we could just come home and record straight away
but also i kind of wanted to let it sit and let
my feelings process because i think it's fair
to say that we both had some pretty mixed feelings
about this movie yes we did some very positives
and some very negatives yeah about it it was
it was quite a confusing experience and i think
unfortunately i thought that as i let myself
sit with it and let some of my disappointment
from my expectations not being met fade i was
thinking i would get more positive about it over
time but i think the more i sit with it the less
i like it unfortunately so i'm gonna try not
to tear it to pieces and try to oh no try to
still be fair because there was a lot that i
liked about it there was a lot that was done
really well yeah yeah true So we should do some
spoilers. No, spoiler warnings. Yes, spoiler
warnings before the spoilers mix. Yes, warning
first. Yes. Then the spoiler. Yeah, that's the
smart way of doing it. So we are talking about
a film which is still out in cinemas. Yeah. So
people may not have seen it. We are going to
talk in detail about the plot. We are, including
the ending. Including the ending. And that's
going to happen real quick. I'm going to be doing
a summary of the movie really soon. So if you're
thinking, oh, I'm not sure if I want the spoilers.
Pause and think it over. Yeah, yeah. So if you
haven't seen the film and you don't want it to
be ruined for you by our biased opinions, maybe
this is not the time to be listening to this
episode. Yes, come back to us later. Come back
to us when you've seen it and then tell us how
much you agree with us because clearly we're
right. The other thing... absolutely your bit
you are stealing my bit that's okay mix i'll
steal it yeah so the other thing we wanted to
mention is that we are aware that this movie
is based on a book called box hill neither of
us have read the book and we're talking about
the movie very much as its own thing um i'm aware
there's some things that they changed from the
book and some things that they kept quite close
to the book but i don't know that the ins and
outs of that and i think when talking about a
movie it's it's always good to treat it as its
own thing anyway because the choice in what to
adapt and how to adapt it is just as interesting
as the choices that were made in the source material
so we're looking at what that end result was
yes it's very well put so i think you're going
to talk us through the plot aren't you you're
going to spoil the entire movie in the first
like three i am because i thought you were about
to steal my bit again then no no i was going
to come for you I would like to see you try.
So Pillion opens up by introducing us to Colin,
who is a young, sexually inexperienced, I think
probably romantically inexperienced as well,
gay man. He works as a traffic enforcement officer.
So he's going around giving parking fines to
people and getting yelled at and called a bastard
and a cunt and various such things on a daily
basis. By the characters in the film, not by
us. Not by us. We have no opinion on traffic
enforcement. Nope. I feel like you probably have
had times in your life where you've had some
opinions about traffic enforcement. I've never
had a parking ticket. Have you not, Mix? In my
entire life, no, because I pay for parking. Amazing.
Just as a complete aside, nothing to do with
the film. I don't understand all of the shit
that traffic wardens and traffic enforcement
officers get. They are doing their job. And if
you are parked somewhere where you are not supposed
to be parked, that's going to happen. There are
far worse jobs you could be doing. than putting
a 30 quid ticket on someone's windscreen. I'm
sitting here waiting for you to go, there's far
worse jobs you could be doing, like insurance
underwriting. No, I wasn't going to do that.
I wasn't going to do that. I might have been
thinking it, but I wasn't going to say it. I
am publicly supportive of my partner. But Colin
also sings. He is in a barbershop quartet with
his dad and two other people who we never learn
anything about. Never really get to know each
other. And sings really well as well. Yeah, lovely
voice. He's very good. Really confident. It's
nice. We will get into this as we get into what
we liked about the movie, but I did like seeing
a submissive with a little bit of confidence
to them. Yeah. Because we don't always get that.
But his parents are really supportive of him
being gay and his mum particularly wants to set
him up with a nice man and attempts to set him
up with a nice man who he briefly goes on a date
with, but then becomes distracted by a very good
looking biker wearing lots of leather who asks
him to come and suck his dick behind a Primark.
And he does. And he does. Which I think was a
completely reasonable and valid choice and one
I would also make every day of the week. Yeah.
If Alexander Skarsgård wearing leather came up
to you and left you a little card and said, meet
me behind Primark at five o 'clock tomorrow,
you would have gone. Yeah, but also it doesn't
have to be Alexander Skarsgård. My standards
are not that high. I mean, yeah, to be fair,
I would have as well. We might have had a clash
of expectations. Yes. So very shortly after that,
things escalate and they jump into a 24 -7 power
exchange relationship. We don't see that negotiated
at any point or even really talked about. And
at least my reading of the film was that they
never really did talk about it. Just Ray, who
we learn his name after the blowjob has happened,
along with Colin, who didn't know it before that
point either. Ray set some expectations for Colin.
puts him to work gives him orders and that's
kind of the extent of the communication yeah
uh but colin is definitely drawn to that maybe
has some reservations and some discomfort around
elements of how it's being delivered but definitely
feels that the role is a fit for him And they
fall into a routine of that with a lot of service,
very visible differences of power and hierarchy.
So Colin being expected to sleep on the floor
rather than in the bed with Ray. Ray's dog being
given a place on the couch while they're eating
and Colin being expected to stand behind the
couch while he eats. Colin's life, at least from
a barrel side perspective, seems to change quite
drastically from this relationship with his appearance
changing with the people he's spending his time
with. He becomes very drawn into this lifestyle
and Ray and the people that Ray surrounds himself
with, which is a group of other gay bikers who
we see quite a lot of kind of in the background
of their relationship. Colin's parents are happy
initially that he's met someone, but his mum
particularly starts to have some reservations
about how unusual the relationship seems. She
really wants to meet Ray, who's... Who's initially
very reluctant, but does eventually agree to
meet Colin's parents. And it doesn't go over
particularly well with Colin's mum more than
anything. She's not happy with the way that Ray
speaks to and about her son and has a lot of
concerns there. But Colin and Ray's relationship
continues with all the same issues with... quite
a lot of coldness and not very good communication.
Colin's mum sadly passes away. She's been through
cancer treatment throughout the movie and dies
during it. And that seems to bring out a little
bit more care and affection from Ray briefly,
where Colin is a really emotional mess over it,
looking for some support and comfort. And Ray
softens a little bit towards him. But that then
opens the door for Colin to start to ask for
more of that, looking for more intimacy, more
affection and actually some time off from the
dynamic, which Ray isn't willing to give him.
But after Colin throws the best brat out I have
ever seen with full on protest disobedience,
Ray then says they will take a day off together.
That's the only time in the movie where we really
see. properly sustained warmth and affection
between the two of them. We see Ray talking more
than he has through the rest of the movie. Seems
to be going great. They kiss and then Ray ghosts.
He disappears. Colin has no idea where he's gone.
The other bikers either don't know or don't want
to tell Colin. And Colin is left to deal with
that. After some time of being driven around
by his dad trying to figure out where Ray is,
Colin eventually accepts what's happened, grieves
the relationship and starts looking for something
new. Having figured out what he wants, set some
boundaries that he won't cut his hair for anybody
and he wants one day off a week. Non -negotiable.
And the movie ends with him meeting someone and
that being potentially the start of something
new. Yeah. Yep. The end. The end. That was a
really good synopsis. Thank you. I managed to
get not too distracted by the thought of sucking
dick behind a Primark. No. Well done. Well done.
I know that is a difficult point. But you're
right about the Brattel. It was amazing. He stole
the man's motorbike and went on a joyride with
it. We assume, having learned how to ride a bike.
Yeah, we never saw him learn how to ride a bike,
so that's slightly concerning. I enjoyed the
bit where he was trying creeping into the bed
from various different angles. Yes. That was
entertaining. Yeah, that was true. So yeah, that's
the plot of the movie. I think we can't really
talk about a kinky movie without talking about
the usual tropes that you see. Yeah. In a kinky
movie. And they were rife in this one. And they
were rife in this one. And I think I've kind
of softened on it a little bit. I was a little
bit annoyed about it when I came out of it. Because
Colin is portrayed as the kind of the stereotypical
submissive person in a film like this. He's very
shy, very reserved, lives with his mum and dad,
doesn't get out and about a lot. And just, I'm
going to say, generally seems a bit useless.
I would say, yeah, when it comes to relationships
anyway, he's obviously struggling to find his
feet with that. Yeah, yeah. And then Ray is portrayed
like every stereotypical Tumblr dom you've ever
seen in your life. Very tall, very attractive,
very strong. Doesn't really communicate beyond
one or two syllable grunt in the general direction
of the submissive. Seems to take himself very
seriously. for the most part, I think. Yeah.
And that sort of thing always, it just annoys
me, I think especially for the Dom, because I
haven't watched a lot of movies that have kink
as one of the central themes. But I have seen
some, and I struggle to relate to any of them.
Yeah. Because that's not how I see myself, that's
not how I think about what a dominant person
looks like. I completely agree. Like, I see none
of you in Ray. And there was more in Colin that
I could relate to for sure. It still does rely
on those stereotypes, like the fact that he's
very sexually inexperienced and struggling to
connect with people to date and things like that.
It does feel a bit lazy and it does sort of set
it up as this is a person who is directionless
and needs leadership rather than someone's life
just being improved by a dominant. It's like
actually they're going to fail without one is
the sort of implication. despite that i felt
like colin had more depth than you sometimes
get from submissive characters and particularly
there were some choices there to try to subvert
some of that with the job that he does with with
him being a singer those are things two things
that take a lot of confidence like i don't think
i could get up in front of people and sing like
that i don't think i could do the job that colin
does it would stress me yeah so that to me gave
him a little bit more complexity than than we
sometimes get and showed that actually like yeah
he's got his shit together He needs to find a
boyfriend, but he's got his shit together. Yeah,
yeah. So, yeah, I liked Colin as a character
more than I liked Ray. Not just because Colin's
more likeable than Ray, but because Colin had
more to him. And he's the point of view character,
so you expect to get a bit more depth than you
do from Ray, who we're seeing from Colin's perspective.
And he's not letting Colin in, so he's not letting
us in. But he did feel very much like a cardboard
cutout of exactly what people expect a dominant
to be. Yeah. Like some of the people who, when
we first started our podcast, I was getting quite
a lot of comments from people being like, I'm
really surprised that I like your partner because
I was expecting them to be like shouting at you
and barking orders and being really arrogant
and mean and stuff. And like none of those comments
offended either of us. I think we were both really
happy that we were able to sort of beat that
stereotype and show people another perspective.
Yeah. But it's frustrating to see a movie reinforcing
that and telling people that's what they should
expect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's something
we come back to every now and again when we do
these, isn't it? If somebody walked into a munch
acting the way that Ray did in that pub, almost
everybody there would look at me, who's this
dickhead? Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's not how
you behave. Yeah. That's not how dominants behave,
typically. So, yeah, it's just weird to see that
stereotype again. Disappointing to see that stereotype
again, I think. Yeah. Although saying that, you're
absolutely right about Colin. You know, not the
very, very stereotypical submitted. There's a
lot of that there, but there are other things
about him which are there. And to be fair to
Ray, there were moments of levity. Yeah. Throughout
the movie, you know, there was the odd bit where
you could see before it kind of got closed up
again. yeah which i don't think fully did the
job in the same way that having colin be a slightly
more rounded character did but you could you
could kind of see it which was just as frustrating
in some ways because it's like no let's see more
of that yeah let's let's let's know a little
bit more about ray yeah and it felt like too
much of a shorthand way to tell the story of
some dominance can be toxic push boundaries take
advantage of newbies all of this stuff like if
this movie was setting out to represent how a
new submissive can be taken advantage of do it
in a way that is not so reliant on such a two
-dimensional character like because we've all
met dominants who are are a risk to people we've
all met people who have been abused or taken
advantage of by a more experienced person in
king and the people who do these things don't
generally act as blatantly badly as ray no it's
not that easy to spot a predator it'd be nice
if it was no no no that's kind of the that's
kind of the whole thing isn't it is be the charming
open in inverted commas yeah kind of person that
you you you want to you want to look for yeah
you know um that's how they do what they do and
so yeah that that was just a general thing for
me about yeah i would have liked to see something
a little different and we're going to try not
to sort of compare too much against other movies
but one of the things that i know i like baby
girl a lot more than you did but i think one
of the things that we both did like about it
was that it did turn some of those tropes on
their head a little bit yeah um and and go actually
let's show you a slightly different version of
dominance and submission yeah yeah let's have
more of that yeah yes And that might be another
episode, but that's a really interesting kind
of study on power. Yeah. Contextual power. Yes.
Which I did like about that film. Yeah. To be
fair. There was also quite a lot that we liked
about this film, despite the fact that we started
off on a bit of a negative tip. There was, yeah.
No, there was definitely a lot that I did right.
Yeah, one of the things that I liked... the most
about this i think mix was how it showed service
as part of submission um like colin and ray's
relationship is far from ideal far from a good
example of a relationship and i don't think it
was ever intended to be a model kinky relationship
but we still see colin learn about his submission
in that relationship uh we still see him figuring
out his place in all of that and seeing him sort
of learn about service and find himself in it
and he is described We assume by Ray off screen
as having an aptitude for devotion. We learn
about that from Colin repeating it. And then
he repeats it at the end when he's going out
looking for other people. And that's such a good
way of summing up how submission is, and particularly
when it comes to service. So a lot of what we
see of Colin and Ray's relationship is a very
heavily service driven dynamic. Colin wakes up
to an alarm first thing in the morning and there
will be a to do list written for him. that he
needs to do. The first time he goes to Ray's
house, he is sort of presented with the kitchen
and told to make dinner. And he says, I don't
really know how to cook. But by the end of the
movie, he's cooking some pretty complex advanced
stuff in that kitchen. And he's clearly really
embraced that as part of his role. And there
was a moment in there which did remind me of
me. Because it was like when Colin first went
round and it was clear that he was going to have
to cook. He took him into the kitchen. and said,
well, there's some pots and pans and stuff. And
then opened the cupboard and went, yeah. And
then walked away and kind of left into it. Yeah.
And it reminded me a little bit of when you first
started coming around and there was nothing in,
there wasn't very much in my cupboard. So I was
like, yeah, there are the pots and pans. The
cupboards are what they are. So I did, yeah,
that was it. It was a funny little moment. One
of the rare moments where I was like, oh yes,
I understand that bit of Ray. The Ray who has
no herbs and spices in his cupboard. The Ray
who has mixed herbs and salt in his cupboard.
That was very, very what happened when I first
came here. Is this the first time I've roasted
you about that on the main podcast, Nick? Because
I've mocked you about it twice on the Patreon,
but I think this is the first time it's made
it to the mainstream. The first time I came over
to your house, you had no spices, just a pot
of mixed herbs and salt. Yeah. And no cheese.
And no cheese. I didn't eat a lot of cheese.
I've taught you to learn. I still don't eat a
lot. I don't eat a lot of cheese compared to
you. But anyway. Anyway. But yeah, I like that
that did seem to be an element of the relationship
that Colin really embraced and got something
for from or something from for himself. He, it
seemed to, you saw the changes in his face. And
I think. The acting from Harry Melling, as Colin
was incredible, like the little sort of micro
expressions where you could see the submission
just like running through and I could really
relate to that. Yeah. I really liked him. So
this is the point where we should mention that
we actually recorded this episode a couple of
days ago and due to a horrible microphone connection
issue, almost all of the recording is completely
unusable. Very annoying. There's a rattling noise
throughout that we will not torture you with.
But there is one moment of that recording that
we are going to have to share now. Today, you
know who Harry Mellon is. Yes, I do. When we
recorded this two days ago, you said, you know,
he must be quite a new actor. I've never seen
him in anything before. Yeah, yeah. And that
is when I revealed to you. Yes. I've never seen,
I haven't knowingly seen Colin in anything else.
Oh, I'm about to blow your mind. I thought you
knew this. Who was it? Dudley Dursley from the
Harry Potter movies. Fuck off. I swear to God.
He's been in other things as well, but yeah.
Wow. That's... Of course it is. Oh, my God. Of
course it is. I love the way you're getting this
on microphone. I just assumed you knew. Yeah.
Okay. Well, I take that back slightly then. I
haven't seen anything since he was a child. That
seems like a good point to mention, though. All
of the acting in this movie was really good.
The direction was really good. This was a well
-made movie, regardless of anything. Anything
we may have to say about it as this episode goes
on. Yeah. Like, it was just good cinema. Good
art. It was. As a piece of art, it was very,
very good. Everybody did a great job. And quite
an intimate film as well. Yeah. Weren't lots
of kind of big, expansive shots. You were always
quite close to the people. Yeah. Which I quite
like. And it had a very distinct look and feel.
Like, you could see a stillboard from that movie,
a short clip from that movie. And even if you
didn't remember it specifically, you would go,
oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it is the
director's first feature length movie. And I
will, regardless of any sort of misgivings I
have about this movie, I'd be interested to see
what he does next. Yeah, yeah. I would see another
of his films for sure. He's clearly a talented,
talented person. But yeah, one of the things
I really liked about the movie, linked to service
submission, I suppose, was the portrayal of protocol.
Yeah. Not just in Ray and Colin's relationship,
but in the group as well. You know, things like...
the dog having priority on the sofa so Colin
has to stand sleeping at the end of the bed um
the way that kind of the um even in the pub right
at the start the way the way that people positioned
themselves yeah there's quite a few sitting on
the floor quite a few kind of kneeling or sitting
on the floor while the dominance was sitting
up on the on the chairs and that was kind of
a feature throughout of that quite a high protocol
approach to to relationships and dynamics yeah
and it was really nice to see that because it's
not something you typically i'm not sure it's
something you would typically see yeah i think
protocol is often seen as something that's either
very extreme and very strange or it's just seen
as difficult to portray i think because it's
it's commonly misunderstood to be just very kind
of cold and formal yeah which doesn't necessarily
translate to a movie very well but protocol can
be in those subtle day -to -day things like the
positioning of your body and just you know an
honorific setting in conversation which could
be overall i really like informal conversation
it's those little things yeah they'll just remind
you of what the type of relationship is and i
think they did that very well yeah and that and
that that's what i really liked about it it wasn't
presented as this big formal thing it was just
part of just part of the context it was just
part of the the way that they did things yeah
and the way it wasn't there was no big deal made
of it it was just everybody knew where they needed
to be yeah and everybody knew what they needed
to do so they did it i i just really liked how
natural that was yeah definitely i thought it
was a very good Very good thing. Yeah. I liked
some of the subtle bits of emotional masochism
as well. And it's tricky because I think a lot
of the things in the relationship that made Colin
emotionally suffer were not, they were not BDSM.
They were just mistreatment. But that doesn't
mean that you can't see emotional masochism in
it. A big part of my kink awakening in my early
30s was a vanilla situationship with someone
who was gearing up to be an emotional abuser
if things hadn't fallen apart when they did.
yeah and he would sort of play mind games with
me cut communication and disappear for days at
a time you know encourage me to behave in certain
ways and then shame me and degrade me for doing
them and all of this kind of head fuckery stuff
yeah and i learned from that situation two things
one was that i did not want to be with that person
absolutely fuck that but two that whatever i
did want in a relationship had to involve someone
who could make me just sob my heart out on the
floor sometimes Because that was where all the
desire came from. That was where the heat in
that relationship came from. And I think the
movie did have moments of showing that, where
I think some of the intensity of what Colin was
feeling for Rey was growing in the moments of
pain. And you could see that. And that's an element
of masochism that's not shown a lot, whether
it's being shown as part of King or being shown
as part of something else. It's not something
that we see a lot of. It reminded me a little
bit, the movie in general actually reminded me
a little bit of Venus in Furs. Right. We're going
for a very old bit of kink media there. Yeah,
yeah. I've just Googled it. That book came out
in 1870. Oh, wow. But that is still the best
portrayal of emotional masochism that I've ever
read. And there's a reason why the author is
who masochism is named after. Because it's not
a book about kink. It's a book about suffering.
Right. And being... held at arm's length from
a person who makes you just hurt and then disappears
is something that that represents my masochism
in a way that we don't see very much yeah but
i feel like in 2025 that story is maybe not the
best way to represent the kink community i will
give a pass to a novel from 1870 yeah yeah because
it would be easy for that to be the reason why
i'm really negative opinion of rey and for it
to look like it's bordering on it's tripping
over into abuse rather than kink yeah i think
and there is a whole other episode or a whole
other discussion at least in this about whether
media is representing bdsm as in the whole acronym
as in a kink practice as in a thing that consenting
adults do with each other for fun or is media
representing sadism and masochism which is a
little different. So the Saw movies are representing
sadism. Yeah. Venus in Furs is representing masochism.
You know, there's a lot of media out there that
will show enjoyment of pain, giving or receiving,
that has nothing to do with kink. Yeah. And that
can be interesting, but it doesn't feel like
it's representing our community. I think if a
movie sets out to show our community, it maybe
needs to handle those things with a little bit
of care. Yeah. Yeah. And some of the things that
are missing from the movie would have helped
with that. Yeah, definitely. But I can see what
you mean. There is definitely an element of Colin
kind of enjoying that part of the suffering.
Yeah. You see him quite quickly go, like you
say, through the micro -expressions and the way
he behaves and stuff. He's clearly having a good
time on some level, kind of throughout the movie.
Yeah. And there's a conflict in him where some
of the intensity, some of the desire is coming
from the suffering. But also, as most masochists
do, there's a part of him that resists that.
And I think that part exists regardless of whether
something is consensual and ethical and healthy
or not. There's a part of you that's always going
to fight pain. And if you're a masochist, there's
a part of you that's always going to chase it.
And those two sides of you are always at war
with each other. There are two wolves inside
you. There are. And they're both perverts. so
yeah i think i think they showed that i think
they showed that well i would have liked to see
a little more of that and i feel like as with
a lot of things in this movie it could have been
a very different movie if it had been specifically
about that yeah might not have been any better
representation but it would have been interesting
yeah yes yeah um something that i think we both
really really liked in the moment but unfortunately
felt was a little bit undermined by where the
movie went from there, was the scene where Ray
meets Colin's parents. Yes. Because I liked that...
There was a lot I liked about that scene. I liked
that the dad was clearly not really understanding
what was going on, but being supportive anyway.
Yeah. We love that. I liked that the mum was...
concerned and challenging ray because unless
you've sat the parents down and explained this
is what bdsm is and this is how we're making
sure it's safe and all of this stuff which is
an uncomfortable conversation for anybody yeah
i think someone from the outside looking in is
always going to see any kind of power exchange
relationship with an element of concern regardless
of whether it's it's a healthy one or not from
the outside looking in it's you know, seeing
someone talking down to your son or ordering
them around or pulling them out of family functions
and stuff and giving them orders, you're going
to have your back up a little bit. And Colin's
mum getting upset with Ray felt completely realistic
and quite reasonable under the circumstances.
And I liked that the way that Ray responded to
that was not to get angry, not to even really
try to defend himself, just... to say just because
our relationship makes you uncomfortable does
not mean that it's bad for your son yeah like
really almost breaking the fourth wall and saying
to the audience like you're seeing some stuff
in this movie and you're gonna see some stuff
in this movie that you would not want that you
would not enjoy that looks nothing like how a
relationship should look in your head yeah and
that doesn't mean it's wrong yeah love absolutely
brilliant brilliant moment in the movie It's
just unfortunate that it was Ray that said it
and then he proceeds to be extremely bad for
her son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does undermine
it a little bit. And that's such a shame because
it's such an important message generally, not
just about King and BDSM, but about anything.
You hear it talked about a lot with people's
gender identity and their sexuality. It's like
you don't have to understand it, but you do have
to respect it. And I think that's the point that
he's trying to make there. It don't really care.
It could get it. you just have to respect that
it is what it is so it was and at that point
i was like oh yes this is brilliant like this
is this is a brilliant movie i am fully on board
with it yeah um and was for a good while after
that to be fair yeah you know it all fell apart
in the last five minutes i think for us yeah
um because yeah there were issues with how ray
was treating colin throughout but there's a version
of that story where ray recognizes that and correct
some of it or at least Make some steps towards
it. I don't think movies need to be all tied
up in a neat bow at the end and everything's
perfect. But a version of it where Ray acknowledges
that some of his own shit is fucking up the relationship
with Colin. Yeah. And makes some attempt to try
to put things on a better track before the end
of the movie. Yeah. I would have liked to see
that. You don't have to make him into a great
dominant. You don't have to make him into a great
person. You don't have to. say that they're going
to live happily ever after with no issues ever
again but yeah a version of the story where ray
redeems himself a little bit would have given
that moment a lot more weight yeah and made it
the central message of the movie instead of it
almost feeling like we were being told to believe
the opposite yeah like if ray said it it's probably
not great yeah true true yeah there's any any
number of ways that the film could have ended
which would have been better I think even if
it was you know one conversation where they're
like well this is what I want Colin was saying
this is what I want and Ray was saying well this
is what I want those things aren't compatible
are they yeah nice to meet you all the best yeah
kind of thing and they go on with their lives
yes that's not how that played out which was
um which was a shame yeah and another thing that
would have potentially changed how i felt about
the movie overall was developing some of the
side characters more so even if colin and ray's
story went exactly the way it did we have more
to contrast it with because what we saw of the
group was great and that was another thing that
i think we both really liked yeah it was those
minor characters who were the group of bikers
that that were raised friends and then accepted
colin as one of their friends as well yeah yeah
and there was a lot about that although we didn't
really get to know many of the characters they
were a really important part of the scenery yeah
Like I said before, the way that Quite High Protocol
was presented in a really natural way and the
way that they were clearly kind of like a chosen
family. Yeah. They all knew each other. They
all got on. They were all kind of comfortable
with each other, both on a personal level and
expressing their dynamics and stuff like that.
And then the group scene when they were camping.
was not something i've ever experienced before
but it was really interesting to see yeah like
the you know the all of the submissives kind
of bent over the picnic tables as property for
the assembled dominance kind of kind of thing
um like let's say i've never experienced that
but i was like I can see how that would work.
I can see how that would go. And it's really
nice to see that. Yeah. And although we haven't
had sort of an experience that exactly matches
that, it felt in vibes and feel a lot like when
we did go on a kinky camping trip. It feels like
some of the group play that we've been involved
in and the very sort of relaxed way that people
play in front of each other at events. Sitting,
having a conversation with a friend while they're
getting needles shoved into... very intimate
places and things like that um popping into a
room where friends are playing and being like
oh what are you up to and like that the casualness
of sex violence and intimacy or being out in
the open when you're around people on the same
wavelength as you yeah and how those boundaries
become really soft and how everything just becomes
quite comfortable and yeah things that would
be shocking in any other context become very
much just part of the furniture yeah it had very
much that feel to it it did remind me of experiences
that we've had yeah No, that's a fair point.
I just really like the setup of it where the
subs were all on the picnic benches. There was
a couple of people sitting in deck chairs chatting
and then there was one guy kind of beezing about
on a bike around the campsite. It was just like,
yeah, they're just out having fun, aren't they?
Yeah. And enjoying spending time together. And
the human pup barking at the bike. Love that.
And the human pup barking at the bike, yes. Having
a great time. Yeah. But if you want to set up
where I'm over a picnic bench and anyone who's
there can make use of me, mate, because I'm on
board. Shock. Horror. I am stunned by that revelation
from you. Never would have expected that. No.
So something that we have sort of touched on
a little bit now and that we've talked about
a lot over the last few days, I think, is how
much do you feel it is the responsibility of
a movie to provide? in quotes good representation
or education about the community that it's showing
mix that's a big question isn't it yeah and even
though i know it's in the outline i'm literally
looking at the outline as you're asking that
question that's a very deep question um i guess
thinking about the community itself and the way
that that is represented in in movies and in
art and in any form of art if you're if you're
going to represent the community it has to come
from a place of understanding and it has to come
from a place of respect and kind of hearing that
community speak when when they're talking to
you so don't just go and well this is what i
think of this community so i'm going to present
it yeah you have to you have to know it a little
bit even if it is second hand um i think there
are aspects of this movie where they did a really
good job of that and and there are and this is
something that you told me some of the people
who were in the friend group are are members
of the leather community yeah and so they will
have brought a level of authenticity to the things
that we were seeing on screen and i think that's
really important if you're going to um try and
represent a community you have to be kind of
faithful to it yeah otherwise it's otherwise
it's shit i have to think of a better way of
saying that no i feel like that's the right way
of saying it otherwise it's shit yeah you know
i think one of the things that really attracted
me to going and seeing this movie you know even
though the trailer was a little bit deceptive
was i kind of saw i kind of saw myself i saw
us and i saw my community in it and based on
the trailer and what we read about it we're like
yeah that could be a really good thing it'll
be really nice to have a fairly faithful and
authentic representation of what that's like
on the screen So I think there's a big responsibility
for people who create art like that. If they're
going to do that job of showcasing a group, doing
that in the right way. Yeah, I think I would
agree. There's room for artistic license and
creativity and things like that. And I think
inevitably, when you see a movie that shows something
that you know a lot about, it's going to irritate
you. Yeah. Because you will see the flaws in
it. I know. like doctors and nurses and other
medical professionals often just roll their eyes
at any kind of medical drama because people will
have a chart that has complete nonsense numbers
on it and a doctor will say something that makes
no sense um a big one for me is movies that show
drug use particularly intravenous drug use because
i have injected drugs people going in at a right
angle or using a needle that's like a giant like
dental sort of nerve block needle or something
yeah i'm sitting there like what are you doing
that's not how that works so there's going to
be an element of that with watching any movie
about bdsm i think if you're in the lifestyle
that you're gonna you're gonna find things to
nitpick um and to be fair in terms of like apart
from consent negotiation there wasn't a lot where
i was going that is factually incorrect you don't
understand yeah you're doing because they clearly
had done a lot of research spent a lot spent
a lot of time with the right kind of people to
to understand the community that they were representing
but i think like movies don't have a responsibility
to educate i don't think i was ever expecting
pillion would be or should be a how to do ds
movie it was never going to be that same with
any other movie about kink like it shouldn't
be used as a how -to guide ideally in a perfect
world you don't want it to be a like a how not
to guide you know you don't want it to actively
teach people to do the wrong thing yeah but i
think people are also responsible for if a movie
makes them want to try something, maybe doing
at least a quick Google first. So you don't want
it to actively encourage people to do it wrong.
But, you know, there's some wiggle room between
those two points. I think the thing where I keep
sort of bouncing back and forth to what I believe
is, is it right for a movie to represent toxic,
unhealthy or abusive kinky relationships when
there is such a lack of representation of healthy,
positive, ethical, supportive kink relationships?
Yeah. Because there's nothing wrong with telling
a story about a bad relationship in itself. Like
those relationships do exist. And some of the
people I've seen responding positively to this
movie have been people who have unfortunately
had experiences similar to what Colin had with
Ray. yeah and obviously they're going to see
themselves in that and feel represented which
is important but for people outside the community
if this is the only representation they're ever
shown of us yeah is relationships that are at
best imperfect and with poor communication yeah
how does that portray a community that is already
quite sort of pushed underground pushed out of
the mainstream yeah in some ways criminalized
in a lot of ways censored yeah is that responsible
and i feel like In the current political climate,
maybe this was not the move to make. I think
you're right. It is disappointing when the only
time that the kink community in BDSM is represented
in films is kind of in that at best imperfect
and sometimes outright negative. I think there
is a limit to what films like that can do and
still serve as entertainment because that's fundamentally
what it is. You know, I think... You're kind
of talking about imperfect relationships. The
central theme of almost any film which is focused
around relationships is their imperfection. Yeah.
You need some conflict. You need some conflict
in a film. You need something which is morally
grey or ambiguous or unclear or you need a level
of conflict. You need something to be wrong for
want of a better word in order for it to function
as a piece of entertainment yeah i think the
difficulty with this movie in particular is that
in any other genre of movie there is usually
a positive outcome to that do you know what i
mean you know this was marketed weirdly as a
gay rom -com yeah all the articles about it were
like super raunchy gay rom -com yeah kinky gay
bikers falling in love you know it had elements
of all of that but it was not that yeah And I
think that the kind of layering of the kink and
BDSM element on top of what was essentially marketed
as a rom -com, I think is where we might struggle
with that a little bit in terms of representation.
Because your average person watching that film
with a neutral to positive outlook is going to
go, there was this really shy guy, met this really
dominant guy, got into a relationship with it,
had a good time for a little while, didn't work
out, dominant guy was a bit shit. but the submissive
knew who he was at the end of it and was in a
positive place. That's the message that people
will take from that film. Yeah. I think there's
an undercurrent to it, which is probably what
we struggle with, with it, because of some of
the more subtle messages in that film. Yeah.
The commentary it's making about BDSM, I think,
will probably fly over a lot of people's heads.
Your average moviegoer, it will probably fly
over their head a little bit. I think it will,
but my worry is that it comes out subconsciously
in their attitudes towards King. Yeah, I agree.
That's where it gets a little bit risky, where
certain things will stick and come out in ways
that might not be immediately obvious. Yeah,
yeah. Because I think there's always a temptation,
and sometimes I'm like, am I just overthinking
things? You know, sometimes a movie is just a
movie. Yeah. But I think a movie as well made
as this. You can't just assume that anyone has
gone into it without any intention of making
it say something. This wasn't just a piece of
light, trashy entertainment for people to watch
for two hours and forget about. This was a solid
piece of art. So let's assume that the director
is as smart as he seems and had something to
say. The message we're getting from it either
was intentional, in which case I have beef with
him, or the message we're getting from it is
not what he intended and it's been clumsily handled.
And either way, I think that is worth talking
about in terms of the rep. I think you're absolutely
right. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think
there is a limit sometimes to what we can expect
from. Although this isn't a big blockbuster film
which is being shown in millions of cinemas across
the... This is mass media. This is mass entertainment.
I think there's a limit on what we can expect.
yeah from that although interestingly as soon
as i'd say that you wouldn't say that i i probably
wouldn't say that if the group in question was
people of color or transgender people yeah or
if the gay representation was as questionable
as the kink representation yeah yeah yeah yeah
i think so it's a really complicated thing i
suppose um one element that i did think of which
is possibly less controversial is as you mentioned
earlier on there is not one second of that movie,
or hour and 55 minutes or whatever of it, dedicated
to an explicit conversation about consent and
negotiation of boundaries. They meet, Ray starts
giving orders, Owen starts obeying them. Yeah.
That's how that works. We've seen that before
in other movies that have a kink theme. Yeah.
I think in every kinky movie I've seen up to
now. Including ones that I like more than this.
And we had a dead interesting conversation on
the way home from the cinema on a similar sort
of track of yes, consent and consent is really
important. Negotiation is really important. Setting
boundaries and being clear is really important
and getting into those dynamics. But unless you're
really into it, it's also not that interesting.
We find it interesting. Because it's what we're
really into. Because we're sex nerds. And people
listening to it might be really interested in
it. All of that stuff is really interesting to
people who are interested in it. Yeah. But what
I was saying on the way home was, it's difficult
to portray that for your average audience in
a way that is interesting and engaging. And therefore,
is there a limit to what we should expect from
a movie like that, which is designed to have
mass appeal? Yeah. And I don't want to see in
a movie a 20 minute negotiation scene. yeah you
know i mean maybe i do because i'm a second yeah
yeah but i don't expect and i don't think it
would be a good idea it would kill the momentum
of the movie um and this wouldn't have been the
movie to do it because the whole the whole story
the story they chose to tell was about an unhealthy
relationship so i i don't think it's that we
didn't see the consent it's that the consent
was absent yeah but if you had chosen to make
a different movie there are ways that you can
include consent without it being boring, dry,
killing the momentum because there were a couple
of montage scenes in that movie of things like
Colin being measured for his leather clothing
that he got on his collar, which was beautiful.
It was just part of the montage scene. It was
only a few seconds, but it was absolutely beautiful.
The look on his face and... And it was a rare
moment of intimacy that we actually saw and it
felt very authentic. Yeah, the care that Ray
was taking and making sure that measurements
were right and stuff like that. Yeah, very precise.
That was an element of dominance that I do recognise,
that sort of precision in getting it right because
this is your property you're dealing with. Like,
that was good. But in those kind of montage scenes
where we're seeing Colin and Ray's interactions,
we're seeing Colin's interactions with the group,
we're seeing Colin's appearance change and his
confidence grow and his role and all that stuff.
It would take nothing away from the movie if
it was a movie about a consensual, healthy, negotiated
relationship to show them sitting at a table
having a conversation and maybe one of them's
got a notepad in front of them writing down a
half -minute list. Going through something like
the BDSM test together or doing one of these
little online checklists about things you're
interested in. um it could be um being at an
event or being with the group of bikers and seeing
someone else playing and the submissive pointing
going i'll do that yeah that's how you show consent
it doesn't have to be people sitting down at
the table and going through a contract line by
line though now that i've said it one of the
few things that 50 shades actually did all right
was a negotiation scene true there were many
consent issues before and after that scene where
they were both sitting at the table and fucking
each other with their eyes while going through
the contract was great. So it can be done. It
can be done by a really bad movie. No one else
has any excuse. True. Do you know what? That's
a fair point. Yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah,
I had forgotten how well that Fifty Shades had
done that. In a sea of things that it got wrong.
Yeah. That was a good scene. Sexiest scene in
it was the negotiation. Yeah. Yeah, true. And
I guess in this movie you would probably expect
to see less of that because the imperfect nature
of the relationship, which is kind of the point,
you're not going to see loads of that. It's just
that thing for me of, of course you're going
to spot mistakes. Yeah. Of course you're going
to spot things that aren't right and so that's
not how that would work. But the movie isn't
necessarily directed at you. Yeah. It isn't directed
just at you. Yeah. for sure yeah so we've talked
about some things that we liked we talked about
some things that we we were less keen on and
have have differing slightly differing views
on but there was one part of the movie which
both of us despised yes and kind of ruined the
whole thing yeah i think everything else that
i had my issues with i could have probably forgiven
if it wasn't for this yeah yeah like show me
a badly behaved dominant a messy relationship
toxic abusive like We can talk about whether
that's good rep or not all day, but this is what
annoyed me. And that is the way that the movie
conflated lack of intimacy with being in a 24
-7 dynamic. It very much set it up that Ray's
view, Colin's view, any view that we were given
from any perspective in the movie was that 24
-7 and intimacy do not mix. And the only way
to have intimacy is to have what Colin asked
for, which is a day off once a week. Colin asks
for that from Ray. things don't work out after
they try a day off yeah ray disappears and then
colin sets that as one of his non -negotiables
and relationships moving forward yeah obviously
there's nothing wrong with not having a 24 7
dynamic i think i probably know more kinky people
who don't than people who do yeah the issue is
that what that seemed to be saying is throughout
the whole movie we've seen ray be cold distant
emotionally unavailable private to the point
of it being a flaw. Like Colin is really shut
out of a huge chunk of Ray's life and doesn't
really know anything about him. Yeah. And it
sets it up as if that is a function of the power
dynamic that they have. The warmest we ever see
Ray acting towards Colin is during the day off
that they do take where they act just like a
vanilla couple. We see a brief moment of it in
Ray when Colin is grieving the death of his mother
and Ray softens towards him by relaxing some
of the protocol. That's the only way that he
is able to sort of express that. yeah um and
we see that in colin moving forward and the sort
of hopes for his future relationships being better
that now he knows himself he knows his boundaries
he knows to insist on that day off so we can
at least assume things are going to start to
improve for him yeah instead of at any point
asking could intimacy be integrated into the
dynamic because why couldn't it be yeah and even
even if we accept that that colin just doesn't
want a 24 7 dynamic the idea that his his ideal
relationship is going to be one that one day
a week it's a vanilla relationship and that's
where the intimacy lives in that 24 hour period
that's where he gets his little dose of intimacy
to keep him going yeah yeah for the six days
that are going to be cold distant cruel emotionally
unavailable again like that is not what a healthy
power dynamic looks like to me at least that's
not a dynamic that i want and there are some
people who like their their power exchange a
lot more formal than what we do yeah but it should
never be miserable and devoid of intimacy it's
the most intimate thing that you can do with
another person i think it's yeah yeah yeah that
yeah that's really well almost perfectly described
it's that kind of you you have to put them in
separate boxes yeah um and there is a slight
attempt to address that in the movie there's
the conversation with the one of the only conversations
that we see Colin have with somebody else in
the group, another submissive in the group, where
the other submissive makes reference to the fact
that Ray is emotionally unavailable and not kind
of intimate and says, oh, I couldn't live without
kind of kissing. Yeah. So there is that kind
of nod to it in that scene. But that is also
part of a scene where that submissive basically
says, your partner is a lot hotter than you are.
Yeah. And I would. Yeah. That sort of thing.
And those other characters. The group isn't sufficiently
well drawn for anything they say to kind of carry
a lot of weight. You're not going to remember
that 10 second thing 40 minutes later when they're
very clearly saying, if you want intimacy, it's
over here. And if you want hard, intense kink
and BDSM, it's over here. Yeah. And I think a
bigger problem with none of the people in the
group really being fleshed out and just not seeing
a lot of their relationships is we're not presented
with any contrast to that. So the submissive
who says that he couldn't do without kissing,
we don't know anything else about their relationship.
We don't know if it is a 24 -7 dynamic. We don't
even know if power exchange is involved outside
of play at all. We don't know if it's a healthy
relationship. We don't know if it's a happy relationship.
And we don't know if it's a long -term relationship.
we learn nothing about those characters yeah
and if we did uh still keeping it close to colin's
perspective throughout but he spends a lot of
time with this group like have a few more conversations
like that have him hanging out with them a little
bit more and seeing how they are have them talk
about the fact that he feels like that's what
he's missing with ray and asking like how they
make that work as part of kink it doesn't have
to be a sort of sit down psa let me tell you
how a relationship should be it's a normal part
of the character's journey to look at other people's
relationships i think probably we all do that
sometimes look at other people's relationships
and go they're doing that better than us those
people why it's normal um show us colin having
a bit of that and flesh out those relationships
and come to a different conclusion because like
i keep coming back to this it's about the choices
that are being made with this story it's not
unrealistic for ray to be an it's not unrealistic
for colin in the context of that relationship
to think the only way to get some intimacy would
be to have some sort of protected vanilla time
to experience it but why are we telling that
story why have we chosen that that's where that
character ends up yeah when this could have been
a story about colin setting his non -negotiables
as i need intimacy i need affection i like power
exchange but i don't want to feel like you don't
respect or like me yeah like that's where it
could have ended and a choice was made not to
go in that direction and to instead send the
message that intimacy is not part of kink because
yeah colin ends up kinky But he's saying that
he needs vanilla time to experience intimacy
and love and affection. Yeah. Instead of integrating
those two parts of himself. Yeah. And that, much
as unhealthy dynamics exist, that is something
that I don't think many kinky people come to
as a conclusion. That idea that intimacy and
kink can't mix. Most kinky people I know, they
do see kink as highly, highly intimate, whether
it's casual pickup play, a 24 -7 dynamic or anything
in between. yeah yeah you're cracking up from
some of the most hidden scary shameful intense
parts of yourself and sharing them with another
person yeah how would that not be intimate yeah
and yeah the level of trust and the level of
work that it takes to be able to do that with
with someone yeah is is in itself a really intimate
act well again i agree almost perfectly described
i agree with all of that it's really frustrating
that it presents that Presents kink and intimacy
as a binary choice. Yeah. Rather than being.
Integratable. Yeah. That's not a word. I just
made up a word. It's a good one. In a way that
most people would. Recognize. Yeah. I suppose.
Because you wouldn't see that in any other type
of relationship. No. Would you? Where kind of
intimacy happens on a Sunday. But my perception
is. You don't have people go. Okay. Well, we
are intimate on a Sunday. And they're not. yeah
six days yeah that works no and you wouldn't
treat any other relationship style as if it was
something that made it impossible to be affectionate
and intimate with someone um and i think it ties
into this perception people have that that kink
is just a sex thing like submission and dominance
and sadism and masochism are all just things
you do to get off yeah and so the idea that you
do that with someone for a bit so you both get
off on it and then you go and you cuddle on the
couch and you just be normal is a lot of people's
perception of what kink is and for some people
kink is just the thing they do in the bedroom
But that doesn't mean that that's all that it's
capable of being. And when you see a relationship
where things like service and protocol are such
a big part of it, that is showing kink. That
is something that's well beyond that and is part
of how people love and how people feel close.
And it clearly doesn't stop Colin being in love
with Ray and expressing intimacy and affection
towards Ray. It's just not reciprocated. So why
can't we see at least the potential for a dominant
to approach it in the same way? Even if we don't
see that relationship established, even if we
don't see it happen with Colin and Ray, see Colin
seeking that at the end instead of seeking a
timeshare arrangement. Yeah, yeah. It goes back
to that kind of alternate endings you could have
had. There's potentially a really interesting,
really quite emotionally charged sequence in
the film where they're having that conversation
and Colin is kind of saying, i want both of these
things and ray saying i can only give you one
of them yeah and then go well that's a bit shit
in it but yeah i even know where i would put
that conversation what i would have replaced
because there's a scene in the movie where they're
in bed together um and colin says you know that
i love you and ray said says uh yes but this
isn't about that yeah fucking dangerous actually
irresponsibly dangerous to have a character almost
say the line that sadomasochism has nothing in
common with human love yeah because that is a
quote from one of the people involved in operation
spanner yeah and that is the beginning of the
last three decades of our community being criminalized
pushed further and further out the mainstream
and something that was highly driven by homophobia
as well so if you're representing gay kinky people
in a movie maybe don't resurrect the ghost of
that yeah um but take that conversation out and
replace it with colin saying i want something
more loving and more intimate and more... Yeah,
yeah. More like a normal relationship, but with
all of this as well. And Ray going, I just don't
have the capacity for that. I'm not capable of
that. I can't give you what you need. Instead
of saying, this isn't about that. Yeah, yeah.
I'm not about that. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Totally agree.
Totally agree. And it's really sad in a way.
Yeah. That that's how that played out. You used
a really interesting word when we were talking
about it on the way home and kind of planning
this episode as well about whether or not that
was malicious on the part of the filmmakers.
Yeah. And I don't want to believe it was malicious,
but it still feels malicious to me. That's the
word that comes back to me a lot is is malicious
because I don't want to assume the worst of anybody.
And I think given the amount of research and
care that went into some elements of this movie.
Yeah. Like I have a hard time imagining that
this was designed as an anti -kink propaganda
piece. But that is unfortunately what a lot of
it ends up smelling like, which is really frustrating
because it felt like, like I sometimes make a
little bit more allowance for movies that are
just trash. Like I think in, again, not to compare
and contrast too much, but we did an episode
quite recently on Fifty Shades and I feel like
we tried to find some positives in it and give
it a little nod when it did things right. Like
we quite liked the negotiation scene. Like there
were a few moments of how submission was portrayed
that I was like, oh, I relate to that. Because
it's a garbage movie. Yeah, yeah. You sort of
give it a little clap when it does all right.
When a movie is this good and this well -crafted
and has so much research go into it, it's like,
actually, you do not get brownie points for kind
of doing all right at times. Yeah. You are responsible
for the things that you fuck up on a much bigger
level. Yeah, yeah. It's like the difference between...
If a wild animal gets loose in your house, like
a bird comes in and knocks over your TV and smashes
it. Yeah. You're not really going to be mad at
the bird. It's just an annoying situation. Your
best friend comes around, looks you dead in the
face and knocks your TV onto the floor and stands
on the screen. Yeah. You're going to be pissed.
Yeah. And that's how I feel about pillion. It's
like you knew exactly what you were doing, or
at least you should have done. Yeah. And that's
not sitting well. Yeah. I think that's really
valid because, like I say, compare that to...
Compared to my experience of Fifty Shades, when
we recorded that episode, that was the first
time I'd seen that film. Yeah. I'd never read
the book, avoiding them like the plague. But
I went into it with it having such a reputation
as being not just a bad movie, but a bad representation
of kink and BDSM. Yeah. Which, to be fair, both
of those things are true. But it wasn't as bad
as I expected. Actually, there were some positives
to it. Whereas with this movie, I think the expectation
going in. was that it would be of a higher standard
than that. So you hold it to a higher standard
than that. I'd be dead interested to have a conversation
with the people who were in it. The group of
men that are in the film, I'd be dead interested
to have a conversation with them about it and
see how they feel about how their community has
been represented. yeah and how much they knew
about like how it ended like did they see the
whole script did they know everything yeah yeah
yeah it would be really interesting and it's
been interesting seeing reactions across like
i posted about the movie on tiktok so i got a
lot in the comments seen a lot of people talk
about it on fetlife real range of reactions to
it including within the king community some people
absolutely unprisically loved it and and that's
great i love that for them i wish i had and there
are some people who have been much more strongly
negative about it than us And a lot in between.
A lot of people with that same conflict as us.
Where it's like, damn, that was a really well
-made movie. Brilliant acting, brilliant directing,
brilliant everything. Yeah. But it's not left
a very nice taste in my mouth afterwards. And
that's the group that we've fallen into. Yeah.
Yeah. Which is such a shame. Yeah. Yeah. Wanted
to love it. Wanted this to be really positive.
We were looking forward to this being a really
positive episode, weren't we? Yeah, like this
was our date night. I had a streaming cold and
banging headache as well. And I toughed it out
because I was so excited. I kind of wish I'd
stayed home and napped. I am glad I've seen it,
though, because it's interesting. And regardless
of whether I end up sitting on the side of the
fence where I'm like, overall, I think it was
good or overall, I think it was bad or actually
really strongly both. like this movie is going
to set the tone for a lot of comments about bdsm
for probably the next 10 years yeah it's not
necessarily like a huge huge mainstream blockbuster
of a movie but it's going to be the movie people
ask you about when you say you're kinky like
people do now with 50 shades and they do with
secretary yeah it's going to be one of those
where you are put on the back foot to defend
your relationship in the context of pillion yeah
i think about the questions that i get asked
quite a lot now is is there love in your relationship
and do you ever want a day off and it's like
i'm not ever offended by those questions they're
completely reasonable things for people to ask
but that perception that that is in question
or is that is hard to believe is going to go
through the roof yeah yeah um yeah and i one
of my sort of first things i said about the movie
after we saw it was like if i am given a choice
between explaining my relationship to someone
who has only seen 50 shades and someone who has
only seen pillion which would i prefer and i'm
not saying it's a better movie and i'm not saying
it's better representation i'm not saying it's
better at anything but i would have an easier
conversation with the 50 shades fan yeah because
at least they know what contract negotiations
yeah yeah fair fair um i have just one more thing
that it's a fairly minor thing but i found it
i just found it dead interesting that kind of
end sequence to the film the bits where Colin
is out with his dad looking for Ray. And he goes
to the friend group. Yeah. And asks them if they've
seen Ray. And we don't hear the conversation.
But the tone of the body language is, no, we
don't know where he is. Yeah. And I can't quite
work out whether that is in a dismissive way
or in a, no, we just don't. When I watched it,
I took it as they just don't know where it is.
But a review I've read since said that you can
actually hear one of them say, fuck off. I have
not verified that. Right. But if that's the case,
they would definitely. Right. Actively hostile.
Yeah. But whether they just couldn't help or
didn't want to. Yeah, yeah. The end result is
the same. We never see Colin interact with that
group again. No. So I guess there's two things
there. The first thing that I thought of was
when I watched that initially, I thought, well,
that's not how that community would respond.
Yeah. They would sympathise with Colin. And surely
they would know what had happened because they
were all mates. But then I thought about it a
little bit more and I thought about kind of the
local community around here. And that does sometimes
happen where people just drop off the face of
the earth. Yeah. And you don't see them for a
while. We've done it because we're choosing to
prioritise time going to events that are a little
bit further afield at the moment. So we're not
as present in our very local community as we
have been in the past. So people just do just
kind of drift in and out. Yeah. and disappear
for a little bit. And then you see them six months
later. It's like, oh, fucking hell, I haven't
seen you for ages. How are you doing? And it's
almost quite a sad commentary on the nature of
our community, I suppose, where that happens.
Some people make really close friendships and
they see each other a lot and they're really
involved in each other's lives. But there are
also people that you get to know quite well and
have a lot of positive feelings towards who just
disappear. Yeah. Often for completely benign
reasons. It left me feeling a little bit sad
about that. It just feels a little bit weird.
When I think about it too much, I go, hmm. And
I don't know whether that's because we're coming
into it with a heightened sense of privacy. So
we don't share a lot of stuff with other people
in the community or we kind of keep ourselves
a little bit guarded and stuff like that. But
there is that thing of it felt really surprising
at the time for Ray to just drop off the face
of the planet in the way that he did. But when
I thought about it a little bit more. it became
less surprising yeah but no less sad yeah i think
the thing that made that feel a bit less believable
to me is there's a bit of a difference between
your local munch that as you say people do just
just stop going suddenly and might be for no
reason at all you might never find out the reason
they're just not there anymore yeah it's a bit
different between that and an actual group of
friends that you are organizing stuff with like
the camping trip that they all went on yeah yeah
like this is a group of people who they don't
just happen to know each other through a local
munch they are friends they are their own sub
-community i think particularly from what i know
of the leather community they form really close
bonds they they have like leather families and
that doesn't mean that there won't be people
who just dip in and out there always are and
people who do just go stall their friends and
move on and that seems to be sort of set up as
kind of ray's pattern almost it's as much as
we can see anything of him he seems quite willing
to to cut and run when things aren't going the
way he wants them to yeah yeah um but i think
what i found again sort of left a bit of a nasty
taste for me was the way that the group didn't
so continue to support and include colin yeah
like okay raised it to everybody so why are you
why are you cutting colin out even if that review
was wrong about them saying fuck off like i said
i cannot verify i'm not going back to the cinema
just to check that one line um but you never
see colin interact with them again and it would
have felt different if the movie had been like
okay this relationship was a shit show but colin
has found his kink family it's like if that was
the the love story here of colin becoming part
of that group and it's like well ray can ditch
if he wants to because colin's great got got
his mates yeah yeah like that would have again
sat better as a representation of kink community
even if we didn't get a positive representation
of kink relationships yeah because kink community
is really important like some of the the best
relationships i have are with friends that i've
met or got closer to through the kink community
a lot of what i've learned about myself has been
through friendships with other submissives and
like s types in general yeah because much as
play and relationships with dominance is really
important to me like figuring out who i was and
what my boundaries were and and how to stay safe
and how to look after my well -being and how
to get through sub frenzy without getting broken
yeah i needed my my sub friends for that yeah
yeah and something that showed that positively
would have undone a lot of the stuff that i or
it wouldn't have necessarily undone the stuff
that i didn't like but it would have made it
more forgivable because it's like okay but some
really good representation here of one of the
best things about kink community yeah yeah show
a relationship between colin and another sub
that is not adversarial yeah yeah yeah true so
i totally agree with that although i will just
say there is there is a perspective which you
have direct experience of of the the person who
was introduced to the friend group and then the
relationship breaks up with the person who introduced
them to the friend group going okay well i can't
hang out with those anymore because they're they're
friends you know yes you're talking about hope
you're calling her out i am gently calling her
that's fair yeah when me and hope split up a
hundred percent i was trying to get her to hang
out with our friends who i had introduced her
to who had been my friends first but were definitely
our friends and they were reaching out to her
saying like hey like we're your friends too you've
both been through a breakup let us hang out with
you and she was like they're your friends i don't
want to see your friends but she got over it
eventually and they will continue to bad to her
until she did um and for anybody sitting there
confused being like this is new law who is hope
uh you will have seen hope and known hope by
a different name when she used to appear on my
tiktok and you will get to know her quite a lot
better In a couple of weeks, because she is coming
on the podcast. Woo! Woo! Excellent stuff. Very
exciting. Yeah. Very excited for that. And we
bully her in person as well. Yeah. That's how
friendship works. That's how friendship works.
Yeah. So yeah, there was just that interesting
thing about the community, because again, there
were attempts throughout it to show them as a
bit of a family group, I suppose, or a bit of
a friend group. Yeah. Even some scenes where
Ray, in montage, for like a second, where Ray
smiled. and seem to be having a good time right
shocking but yeah it was just a curious thing
for me to think about having quite a different
perspective on it in the moment than I did when
I thought about it for a few minutes something
that we have touched on but i wanted to talk
about a little bit more is the way that this
movie has been marketed promoted covered by the
media and it's always hard with this stuff to
know how much of it is down to you know the fault
of of any one person is this a director's choice
is this an actor's choice is this just what the
media have done with it is it the way that the
the studio behind the movie is promoting it there's
a lot going on but this was The trailer definitely
showed that there was some difficulties with
intimacy and some tension and unhappiness in
the relationship. But the impression I got from
it is this is something that would be addressed
in the movie and that both characters will be
brought into working on, which obviously isn't
how it played out. But more so than the trailer,
it's all of the kind of the media buzz around
it was describing it as a rom -com. Everything
I've seen before it came out described it as
a rom -com and even some of the reviews since,
which is just... staggering lack of genre knowledge
it has comedy moments and it has romantic elements
but it shouldn't be described as that um and
there were a lot of articles talking a lot like
really playing up how sexually how sexually explicit
it was and it was like we we saw full -on hard
penis yes but people describing it as like raunchy
and stuff like that it's like it's not really
it's got three sex scenes in none of them explicitly
consensual two of them particularly questionable
two of them very very awkward at least on Colin's
part he doesn't really know what he's doing yeah
like it's got elements to it that were a little
bit hot but I wouldn't say like this is a really
hot and sexy movie to watch that's not what I
got from it I think the sex scene at the campsite
is the only one where it's like that's pretty
hot and that's it yeah um so marketing it driven
by you're gonna you're gonna see Alexander Skarsgård's
dick It's a weird choice. And you don't. It's
a prosthetic. You don't even get to see Alexander
Skarsgård's dick. Day ruined. It was a good prosthetic,
though. It was a very good prosthetic. I think
there's something... You're absolutely right
about the romantic comedies. From our perspective,
probably not very raunchy, probably not very
hot. But again, going back to who these reviewers
are, I totally agree with you. A little bit of
mismarketing, but I can see how they got there
with it. Weren't you saying that there were some
interviews with the two main actors? kind of
asking how they dealt with the sex scenes as
well and that i think we definitely can't blame
any anyone from the the movie making side for
that that's just an irritation i have with the
media is since we've seen it and since i've been
sort of looking at what other people have been
saying and stuff obviously my algorithm knows
i'm interested and is showing me everything and
it seems like almost everything that i'm being
shown is the the two main actors being asked
like was it not really scary and really awkward
and really uncomfortable having to pretend to
have gay sex like how did you deal with all the
pretend gay sex you were having and it's like
they're fucking actors and they would have read
the script before they signed up they were clearly
comfortable with what the characters are going
to be doing yeah yeah it's just bizarre to me
that that's the most interesting thing that you
can think to ask them about about this movie
which like whether, like I said, whether I end
up thinking about it in positive or negative
terms is going to end up as one of the sort of
defining movies about BDSM. And you're sitting
down to ask the characters like, oh, was it icky
having to do gay stuff? Yeah. Just embarrassing.
Get it together. Yeah, yeah. Especially when
you consider some of the shit that Alexander
Skarsgård got up to in... True Blood. True Blood.
Yeah. I think he's okay with it. I think he's
probably all right with it. I think he'll be
all right. A bit of a shock to the system coming
from Harry Potter, I suppose. Harry Melling.
Harry Melling. He has definitely done other stuff
since. I don't think anything that I've seen,
but he didn't go straight from Harry Potter to
Pillion. That would be a leap. Yeah, that would
have been... Anyway. And we did have a conversation,
obviously, because we can't help ourselves. We
did have a conversation about Alexander Skarsgård's
penis. I knew immediately that it was a prosthetic
mix. I did. I did because I keep seeing TikToks
from an intimacy coordinator talking about their
job. And as soon as we saw a shot of Harry Melling's
hand around it, I was like, OK, so that's prosthetic.
There is no way any intimacy coordinator would
have signed off on someone touching Alexander
Skarsgård erect penis. Yeah, that's fair. No
chance. And it had a massive Prince Albert piercing.
Yeah. And I don't know, maybe he does. Maybe
he does. The funniest thing, though, was our
different reactions to the size of it. Yeah.
Because I was like, fucking hell, that's massive.
That looks correct, yes. That's what I expect
in my life. Yeah. Even to the point where you
said you looked at it and you said, yeah, it
looks about the same size as yours. Yeah. I maintain
that it does. you have this delusion that you
are slightly above average yes and that is not
the case from the person who has to like expand
to accommodate but yeah you suspected it was
a prosthetic because you thought it was unreasonably
big yes and i i was fully prepared to accept
that that was a real looking dick aside from
what they were doing with it but much as we're
having fun chatting about prosthetic like that's
another thing that the media has had way more
focus on than i think is yeah yeah like it's
immature like we can be a little bit childish
on our sex podcast in the last 10 minutes but
yeah when like movie reviewers are really focusing
on that like interviewers are asking more about
that than they are about the content it's like
yeah yeah that's frustrating yeah where's your
where's your focus where's you yeah yeah artistic
whatever professionalism i suppose um so yeah
discussions of prosthetic penises aside um i
guess we have some quite mixed feelings i think
is is the conclusion for that there are there
is so much about it i i feel like we've spent
a lot of time in this episode kind of talking
about the things that we didn't like about it
and i'll be interested to see how the balance
is when we get to the final episode But there
is so much in that movie, which was really good,
really well acted, really well made. A lot of
the representation felt quite accurate and quite
fair and quite respectful and authentic. But
the bit that let it down, the whole thing down,
you can't forgive all of the, you can't forgive
that for all of the good stuff, I think is probably.
where we ended up with it yeah i kept thinking
like as we were sort of watching the end of the
movie and as we were driving home afterwards
um we've we've mentioned a few other kinky movies
in this episode but something i keep coming back
to is the bit in secretary sort of getting on
towards the end of the film where the dominant
who is a another dominant who has some communication
issues but a lot more a lot more depth and a
lot more vulnerability and i do quite like him
for all his flaws he says uh we can't we can't
do this seven days a week 24 hours a day and
the submissive looks at him and goes why not
yeah and it's like give me that give me a submissive
who knows what they want and what they want is
unhinged yeah give me a submissive who actively
chases a dominant that has a lot of agency give
me a submissive that is devoted enough to piss
themselves but that we still see love and romance
in the relationship like give me weird along
with affection yeah why have we not had this
since 2002 because i know that we can do better
That movie has its issues. That movie has a lot
of the same issues that we have picked apart
pillion for and that we picked apart Fifty Shades
about and that we'll probably pick apart every
movie we watch about. Yeah, yeah. But why don't
we have that but better? Yeah. 23 years later
and that hasn't been taught. It's still waiting.
Yeah. Yeah. There we go. And I thought that we
might be going to get it this time but we did
not. The search continues. Thanks for listening
to this week's episode of Don't Scare the Newbies.
You can support us on Patreon for bonus content
and head to carisel .com for my blog and links
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you next time.