00;00;00;18 - 00;00;07;13 Dr. Winn I'm Dr. Rob Winn and you're listening to Real Cancer Talk from VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. 00;00;07;15 - 00;00;27;24 Clovia Lawrence I am Miss Community. Clovia. Welcome to Community Conversations: The Black Health Wins podcast. My special guest joining me on the show are Doctor Robert Winn too sweet to be sour. The man of the hour. Director of the VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. Doctor Winn, how are you doing? 00;00;27;27 - 00;00;30;26 Dr. Winn Listen, you know the answer to that. When I’m with you I'm good. 00;00;31;02 - 00;00;57;05 Clovia Lawrence Yeah, you are good. And we also have a very special guest. She set it off last year. Special guest is Freda Wilkins, master of social work, VCU Massey, clinical social worker, 11 years at VCU. Massey, as a clinical social worker, primarily works with the Massey Breast Cancer Collaborative Care Clinic. Worked in inpatient oncology, home health and hospice. Freda Wilkins, welcome back to the show. 00;00;57;07 - 00;01;00;06 Freda Wilkins Thank you Clo, I'm so glad to be here with you. 00;01;00;07 - 00;01;03;03 Clovia Lawrence We're in the midst of the holiday season. Yes. 00;01;03;05 - 00;01;07;26 Dr. Winn Can I brag on for one second. So, can I just say she is a extraordinaire? And yes. 00;01;07;27 - 00;01;08;05 Clovia Lawrence She. 00;01;08;05 - 00;01;13;01 Dr. Winn Is as a person, as a professional, as all around exceptional, you know, I just want to say that. 00;01;13;07 - 00;01;34;24 Clovia Lawrence Okay? And you know what? And I want I did know that. That's why I'm so glad that we're going to have this conversation. Because when you talk about our typical families, families who are going to have friends with them, families with them, villages and communities with them, then you have some family members. When we talk about the huge gathering of folks eating together, because that's love, right? 00;01;34;24 - 00;01;55;19 Clovia Lawrence Doctor Winn. So you have a table of 20 down to ten, maybe down to five, because you have lost loved ones and then you have lost loved ones or loved ones that are diagnosed with cancer right here at the holidays. So we're going to talk about that first with some of the highs and lows. So pretty much Doctor Winn, give us an overview on how we talk about this. 00;01;55;19 - 00;01;59;21 Clovia Lawrence And someone who's being diagnosed right now as we speak. 00;01;59;24 - 00;02;29;05 Dr. Winn Yeah. You know I thought that this is a very and let me just let the audience know that a few years ago we've been doing this annually. And. Yeah. And there's a there's a quote I know that, you know, you get lots of shout out, but I'm going to give you a shout out on this one. It turned out that I started recognizing that with lots of people, but particularly our cancer patients and the people taking care of our cancer patients, and sometimes we would lose the battle of cancer that this period of time, the holiday time. 00;02;29;08 - 00;02;51;16 Dr. Winn This November, December and January. While it's definitely celebratory time for reflection, it's also a time where we have holiday blues. So I wanted to make sure that we actually had an opportunity to let people know that during this period of time, they're not alone. And more importantly, we get through it together. Yeah. So so thank you for allowing us to even have those. 00;02;51;16 - 00;03;14;13 Dr. Winn Absolutely. Talk about a topic that not many people around the country ever get to talk about, which is the reality of that they're there with cancer patients or other illnesses. But this is focused on cancer and the caregivers. There's a period where this holiday can actually also be tough, and we want people to know that we got resources and tools and people around us, and people have been through this before, and it's going to be okay. 00;03;14;15 - 00;03;34;18 Clovia Lawrence Yeah. And that's what I love about this so much. When we talk about the word of illness, but in particular cancer when it comes to the African-American community, the black and brown communities is something we want to steer away from. But when it comes to you face to face, these are the shows that are very important during the holiday season. 00;03;34;25 - 00;03;55;14 Clovia Lawrence No, we're not talking about being festive and and hanging out with the next party is or the New Year's Eve party, but we're basically talking about your health and how challenging it can be for your loved ones, too. We always think about the person that has the diagnosis, but we're not thinking about the caregivers also, and we want the caregivers to know that we are here with them. 00;03;55;17 - 00;04;06;19 Clovia Lawrence So Freda, let's go. Why are we more stressed around the holiday season? Share with us the highs and lows of the holiday season. 00;04;06;21 - 00;04;36;19 Freda Wilkins Well, think about the holidays. First of all, you're off your normal routine. So that right there is stressful for people. You know we're we're not doing what we normally do. But then there's the pressure of the gatherings the get togethers, the preparing and all of these things. And for people who are in treatment or survivors who just completed treatment, you don't have the energy. 00;04;36;21 - 00;04;59;15 Freda Wilkins You can't do what you normally. You don't feel up to doing what you normally do. And one of the things that the women in my group say to me all the time is, I don't want to be the lady with cancer. I want to be just a regular person. But then at Christmas time, I can't cook what I usually do. 00;04;59;17 - 00;05;10;20 Freda Wilkins You know, I can't prepare. I can't make it as festive. Yeah. And that's that makes you different. 00;05;10;23 - 00;05;24;12 Freda Wilkins And, and people are anxious about going to family gatherings where all of us got a loving auntie that's going to say you look kind of different this year. Oh Lord. You know. 00;05;24;15 - 00;05;26;27 Dr. Winn Oh that's great. That's a, that's. 00;05;27;02 - 00;05;32;05 Clovia Lawrence That's the auntie that that was you just had the eggnog. I get you Freda, go ahead. 00;05;32;07 - 00;05;53;20 Freda Wilkins It's that auntie. That I knew that going said the. And then we got loving friends who are going to say, “now how your treatment.” All of that highlights there's something different about me this year. 00;05;53;23 - 00;06;07;22 Freda Wilkins And people talk about those are the things that make it stressful. You know I'm I'm, I feel different. But then people point it out. 00;06;07;25 - 00;06;09;13 Clovia Lawrence Ooooh Freda, this is good. 00;06;09;16 - 00;06;15;11 Dr. Winn Even when they don't point it out. You know even when it's not pointed out. We know that there's something there. 00;06;15;13 - 00;06;32;27 Freda Wilkins Yes. Yeah. We are. I've had patients who told me they didn't go to family gatherings because they haven't seen me without my hair or they haven't seen me with my wig. And they'll begin to talk. 00;06;33;00 - 00;06;33;28 Clovia Lawrence Yeah. 00;06;34;00 - 00;06;39;03 Freda Wilkins It doesn't sound like a big thing until you live in it. 00;06;39;05 - 00;07;01;21 Clovia Lawrence Yeah. And you know what, Freda? I can jump in here with my own experience. When my sister was diagnosed in 2011. And our family, we're really close. And when she was going through her treatment. Right. My mom and my dad always rotated on who was going to prepare the dinner? Right. So we we we always stayed over at my sister's house. 00;07;01;26 - 00;07;25;25 Clovia Lawrence Right. We never missed a beat. And it's. And I'm so thankful for my family that we didn't point out any of those things. You know, she she didn't want to have the wig on, but she had her hair in the hair wrap. Right. But it was good. We were all together. But I'm glad we're having this show. For friends, for family members. 00;07;25;28 - 00;07;37;03 Clovia Lawrence If a person who's diagnosed and they're feeling uncomfortable or they're tired, they'll let you know right Freda? And then we go from there. What do you think? 00;07;37;05 - 00;07;52;05 Freda Wilkins Oh, I think you're absolutely right. You know, I think one of the most critical things is not the, you look different or how is your treatment, but how are you feeling today? 00;07;52;11 - 00;07;53;21 Dr. Winn Yeah. 00;07;53;23 - 00;08;10;25 Freda Wilkins And let them guide you. Another thing is people of my people in my group tell me all the time I run a cancer support group. They tell me all the time that people say, if you need anything, call me. 00;08;10;26 - 00;08;11;17 Clovia Lawrence Oh, I hate that. 00;08;11;18 - 00;08;20;08 Freda Wilkins Maybe we. Maybe we need to move to, you know, I'm at the grocery store. What do you need? 00;08;20;10 - 00;08;42;01 Freda Wilkins You know, I'm going. That's in such a place. What what can I do? I'm at the I'm at the pharmacy. Can I pick up some from the drugstore for you? Yeah. So that we are intentional instead of putting the burden on the person to reach out to us and ask for things. 00;08;42;04 - 00;08;47;04 Clovia Lawrence That is so good, Freda. Oh my goodness. That's why you, the clinical social worker. 00;08;47;04 - 00;08;54;02 Dr. Winn You know, That’s what I’m saying. You know she is coming with the heat this morning. Yes. 00;08;54;04 - 00;09;01;19 Clovia Lawrence Doctor Winn. This is a first for me. She almost left me speechless. And you know, that doesn't happen often. Okay? 00;09;01;22 - 00;09;23;27 Dr. Winn But, you know, your point, though, is at that point about how we traditionally just automatically say, call me if you need me. That's almost like like a recorded message, right? Yeah. Hit the button because it's what you supposed to say. But, Freda, what you just said was let's click beyond that. And use new language. Hey. I'm here. 00;09;23;29 - 00;09;35;14 Dr. Winn Is there anything I could pick up for you? So if, by the way Freda, what you didn't say about that, it allows the person who already feels sometimes more isolated than you are at least extending a hand. 00;09;35;17 - 00;09;37;10 Clovia Lawrence And you have them on your mind. 00;09;37;11 - 00;09;40;16 Dr. Winn I put the onus all on me right. I hear that. That's awesome. 00;09;40;19 - 00;09;56;17 Clovia Lawrence Yeah. Wow. This is good stuff. Stay where you are. We're going to be back. How do you identify depression in patients and loved ones? We're going to answer those questions and more. It is community conversations the Black Health Wins podcast. 00;09;56;20 - 00;10;21;05 Clovia Lawrence Welcome back to Community Conversations. I am Miss Community Clovia and it’s the Black Health Wins podcast. And my very special guest, she is brand spanking new doctor Kim Rhoads, Associate Director of Community Outreach and Engagement at VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. So for folks who are just joining us, they're like, wait a minute, community engagement. I thought Massey was a cancer treatment hospital only. 00;10;21;12 - 00;10;23;27 Clovia Lawrence So, Doctor Rhoads, what do you say to that? 00;10;24;00 - 00;10;47;04 Dr. Kim Rhoads Yeah. So, Massey is what is called a National Cancer Institute, Comprehensive Cancer Center, and that is a very special designation. There's only about 70 fewer than 80 of these comprehensive cancer centers across the country. So it's a very special and very difficult to get designation and recognition. And what it he acknowledges is that the cancer center has research. 00;10;47;04 - 00;11;19;04 Dr. Kim Rhoads It has cancer care, of course, and in most cases, and collaboration across research and care. But it also requires that there is a community outreach and engagement component. And that component, you know, some people will say, poo poo community. That's not hard science. But the reality is that the performance on community engagement drives how well the cancer center is scored in the eyes of the National Cancer Institute. 00;11;19;06 - 00;12;00;12 Dr. Kim Rhoads So this has become, over the last ten years, a major priority of the National Cancer Institute. And it's played out by the cancer centers themselves. So you have to have a person who leads community outreach and engagement. You typically have to have some kind of advisory board or a network of community partners and patient advocates. They need to be embedded across the system and I'm so committed to this part, across the research, across all of the activities, so that what gets produced from the research and the care delivery in that comprehensive cancer center has real impact on the people who live in the area that is served by that cancer center. 00;12;00;16 - 00;12;30;19 Dr. Kim Rhoads And that's how you're judged, actually, to continue to have this special status. So I'm really privileged because this job did not exist, when I was in medical school, I had no idea that there might be a job where what I would get to do is engage people in, in steering the agenda at their cancer center. Or that my job would be to look at things and ask the question, is that equitable? 00;12;30;22 - 00;12;57;16 Dr. Kim Rhoads Are we doing that right? Is that right for the community? Does that serve the people that we're claiming, to be trying to impact in terms of cancer outcomes? So I feel super privileged because this is a place where I'm passionate and committed, and then it's sort of like the universe created a job, where I get to really drive that issue home not just for myself, not just for the community, but within the cancer center. 00;12;57;16 - 00;13;11;16 Dr. Kim Rhoads So the cancer center members, the researchers, the staff, the faculty, there has to be some attention at every level to how what we're doing, has impact on the communities that we serve. 00;13;11;18 - 00;13;31;07 Clovia Lawrence Well, you just sold me on it. And when I think about the science and the research and everything isn't for everybody, and we all know that with the medicines that are being produced and the medicines that are going to be researched over and over and over again, when it comes to clinical trials, it's not a one size fits all. 00;13;31;10 - 00;14;01;09 Clovia Lawrence For a number of years, and I know you can attest to this, medical science was not inclusive of black, brown and tan people. It was that size and it didn't work for us. And so the mere fact that you are the community engagement and outreach, community outreach and engagement, as you do that, you're going to find out when you go into homes, when you invite people to conferences, when you do surveys, that everybody's pain is not the same. 00;14;01;12 - 00;14;22;21 Clovia Lawrence One person can take a level of pain. One person was diagnosed with cancer and they are doing better, and one person is not doing as best as they should. But again, for folks who are listening to us, we have got to take the step up when it comes to our health and we can't leave our health to anyone else anymore. 00;14;22;24 - 00;14;43;13 Dr. Kim Rhoads That's right, I say. We are the ones we well, Barack Obama, president, former President Barack Obama said, we are the ones we've been waiting for. I say it all the time. No one is. No one's coming for us. It is, you know, the efforts to get to the equity and justice that we need is going to be for us and by us. 00;14;43;15 - 00;15;10;13 Dr. Kim Rhoads And if it is as we, call it boo boo, if it is for us and by us, it's going to be more sustainable, longer lasting, more enduring, crossing over generations. So it's not that generational change is not going to come from the health care system. Giving something to us that has never been the case for, for black and brown people in this country. 00;15;10;15 - 00;15;31;09 Clovia Lawrence And as we working hard, especially with the Black Health Wins podcast, these are just some things that we never who used to sit around like you said, and all your ten years of, of being in the medical field or your residency or your internships, it was never a community engagement department. What do you mean, community engagement? I'm a scientist. 00;15;31;09 - 00;15;39;11 Clovia Lawrence I'm a researcher. I know everything about everybody's body. But then you find out all bodies are not made equal. 00;15;39;14 - 00;16;03;20 Dr. Kim Rhoads What it and what it really requires in order to see that is, is humility. The understanding and recognition that everybody with a cancer diagnosis goes into a vulnerable phase or a vulnerable state where, like, my body is kind of betraying me. Right? You may have done all the things that we say to do to prevent cancer, and I just want to just lift the burden off of people. 00;16;03;20 - 00;16;27;06 Dr. Kim Rhoads There are some cancers that cannot be prevented and we don't know why they happen. And then there are those that can be prevented or risk can be reduced. But if you do all the right things, you still could end up with a diagnosis of cancer. And I think it's really important as providers and as people who work inside of the health care system to just approach everybody with some humility. 00;16;27;06 - 00;16;36;02 Dr. Kim Rhoads As my aunt sort of alluded to, she want to walk in and be judged. If I'm going to walk in and be judged, I don't really want to be in your space. 00;16;36;04 - 00;16;56;16 Clovia Lawrence Or you didn't make me feel I wasn't inviting. Yeah, you wasn't invited. And and and Doctor Rhoads, I was a person, you know, I have to get my physicals every year. That's just what I have to do for the rest of my life. You got to get your blood work done and all of those things. Right. But I had a doctor at one time, a general practitioner, years ago. 00;16;56;18 - 00;17;35;28 Clovia Lawrence Whenever I walked in and I talked to the general practitioner, we go in, you know, they do the little consultation before, it was always rushed. I didn't feel like I could share anything with you. But then when I was like, I gotta go. So when I get my new general practitioner and that's something that I want to stress to all of the folks that are listening, male or female parents and guardians of your students who are turning 18 or seeing the pediatrician, you have to develop a relationship with your doctor because when you develop a relationship with your doctor, if something doesn't feel right or there's been a shift in your blood work, you have 00;17;35;28 - 00;17;41;19 Clovia Lawrence a relationship where they can come back and say, what are you doing? You stressing? What's going on? 00;17;41;22 - 00;18;06;23 Dr. Kim Rhoads Well, but I will, I will say in this. So I'm straddling, you know, both sides of the fence because as a clinician, you know, I remember, first of all, getting in trouble because I spent too much time with patients. Right. Okay. That meant that my clinic rooms, which were supposed to be turned over to another doctor in the afternoon, that doctor was going to be late and people get mad because you're late. 00;18;06;25 - 00;18;27;08 Dr. Kim Rhoads So you can't have it both ways unless we shift the system. So building that relationship is a big part of you know, I think some people think of community outreach and engagement as, oh, we're going to do outreach. And, you know, maybe we can talk about that a little bit. Personally, I don't like that word because I don't think it anticipates that anybody will reach back. 00;18;27;08 - 00;18;59;05 Dr. Kim Rhoads So I like to reach out instead of doing outreach, because that means that somebody is going to reach back out. That also means I'm going to learn something. But that said, the goal of doing this work is to establish a, a relationship with community partners and patient advocates so that when they need something, whether it's cancer or something else we offer at VCU, we can connect them to that, that relationship becomes, more sustained. 00;18;59;07 - 00;19;19;26 Dr. Kim Rhoads A clinician who sees you for a particular problem, in the old days, yes. Was establishing a relationship sometimes was coming to your house. But that's not the system we work in now. We work in a system where you got a clinic grid that has 15 minutes per patient. If you've seen them before, 30 minutes if you've never met him before, that's not not enough time. 00;19;19;28 - 00;19;45;04 Dr. Kim Rhoads And then you're not going to see him again for a month or six weeks is a hard way to establish a relationship. And what the benefit of this structure that has been created by the NCI is now you've got a core of people who can start to establish that relationship and be the hand to hold, or the hand to reach to when you have a problem or a question about your health. 00;19;45;06 - 00;20;08;17 Dr. Kim Rhoads I'm not I'm not convinced because health care really is a business. I'm not convinced that they're going to be, a model where you build in enough time for your doctor to establish a relationship with you. So that's one of the benefits of being able to build out a robust team, to do community engagement work and to reach out. 00;20;08;22 - 00;20;22;25 Clovia Lawrence This is amazing. We like you staying close. If you're just joining us, Doctor Kim Rhoads is Associate Director of Community Outreach and Engagement with VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. We have more good news. Stay close. 00;20;22;27 - 00;20;48;10 Clovia Lawrence Welcome back to Community Conversations, the Black Health Wins podcast. I am Clovia Lawrence and my special guest is Doctor Kim Rhoads as Associate Director of Community Outreach and Engagement at VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. Doctor Rhoads, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I can hear your passion through the radio when you talk about fighting for justice for black and brown people. 00;20;48;13 - 00;21;02;07 Clovia Lawrence One team, one fight, and you chose to engage the community to find out really what's going on after your aunt’s diagnosis, and this is where we are today. 00;21;02;10 - 00;21;35;25 Dr. Kim Rhoads Yeah. And it's hard to believe because it is full circle. I was born in Portsmouth, Virginia. My, Yeah, yeah, my father was in the, in the Navy. So I was born in Portsmouth, but then we got moved to California, which is where I grew up. And I feel like I gathered a lot of experiences here in California, leading, founding community outreach and engagement for the Stanford Cancer Institute and then serving as the associate director for, community outreach engagement at the University of California, San Francisco. 00;21;35;28 - 00;22;03;20 Dr. Kim Rhoads Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center. So I'm bringing all of that wealth of experience back to the place where I was born and where my passion for doing community engagement work was stimulated, as you mentioned, by my experience in Norfolk. So, it's full circle for me, and I'm really excited to see what we can achieve in this. 00;22;03;22 - 00;22;27;19 Dr. Kim Rhoads In the catchment area for Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. I'm looking forward to bringing some of my tricks, that I learned over this 30 years, because I really think that, it's such an honor to be able to impact the place where most of my cousins still live. And where my story really starts. 00;22;27;22 - 00;22;53;15 Clovia Lawrence And thank you so much for taking heed to that and asking questions and wanting to know about this after 30 years. And you were a colorectal surgeon and you said, okay, it's good. I love what I do. I love health, but I have to be more engaged with the community. And for this, we thank you. And I know it's going to be really such a blessing to have you over VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. 00;22;53;20 - 00;23;21;22 Clovia Lawrence I know Doctor Winn said I'm continuously in a win win situation, I know that. That's right. It's true. I can, like, hear his voice. It was like, Clo, do you know about Doctor Kim Rhoads? And I could just see him talking about this and all of the work that you're doing. And we want to build stronger and stronger relationships with community partners and organizers of people who are like minded, like the VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. 00;23;21;25 - 00;23;28;24 Clovia Lawrence So if our listeners locally and globally would like to get in touch with you, how can they contact you? 00;23;28;26 - 00;24;01;28 Dr. Kim Rhoads Yeah. So please, visit our website at www.MasseyCancercenter.org. And through that website you can find the community engagement or community outreach and engagement page of the website. But if you want to email us directly, you don't want to use the email address: EngageMassey@vcu.edu all one word. EngageMassey@vcu.edu . 00;24;02;00 - 00;24;15;15 Dr. Kim Rhoads Really excited to meet new community partners in the area, so I hope that folks will reach out to us so that we can explore what we can do together to help move us all to health, equity and justice. 00;24;15;17 - 00;24;25;27 Clovia Lawrence Well, you heard it from the Associate Director of Community Outreach and Engagement at VCU, Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. Doctor Kim Rhoads, thank you so much for this wealth of information. 00;24;26;00 - 00;24;27;04 Dr. Kim Rhoads Thank you for having me. 00;24;27;10 - 00;24;35;00 Clovia Lawrence This has been Community Conversations The Black Health Wins podcast. I am Miss Community Clovia. Thanks for listening.