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I'm Dr.

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Rob Winn and you're listening
to Real Cancer Talk

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from VCU Massey
Comprehensive Cancer Center.

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I am this community
clothier welcoming you to another edition

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of Community Conversations
and the black Health Wellness Podcast.

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And my special guest joining me today.

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He is the man of the hour.

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Too sweet to be sour.

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He's effect of the VCU Massey
Comprehensive Cancer Center.

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He's a pulmonologist
and he is the director doctor

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Robert Wynn, how you doing?

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Hey, listen,
when I'm with you, I'm always good.

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Yes, we have a special guest
joining us, too.

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Like, not just a special guest.

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Yeah, but one of these. Special guest.

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Okay.

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You want to introduce him to me?

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Like, if I, if I say that he was all of.

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Let's listen.

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There is some people in life
that, you know,

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can do multiple things
at the very highest level.

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Yeah.

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The person that we're gonna introduce
today is not only an amazing

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clinician, an amazing scientist
that's made tremendous contributions,

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but in large part responsible
over the last

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5 to 7 years for a lot of the progress.

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I know talk to everybody,
but sometimes it takes a point person.

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So for me, doctor Nate Sharpless has been
that leader

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has been an amazing sort of inspiration
for many of us, has actually shown

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courage, at times in the cancer field,
which is really difficult to do.

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And through his leadership,
I think we enjoy

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not only being part of the NCI
National Cancer Institute,

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but we also enjoy being part
of our national team,

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that we believe has actually contributed
to progress in cancer.

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And so without for me being able to sit

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with that today, place means a whole lot.

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Yeah, it means a whole lot to me
when I think about his credentials.

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Former
head of the NCI is more than credentials.

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I'm talk a high level.

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See that was my part to talk
CDC okay. All right you got

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doctor sharpless is

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professor of cancer policy and innovation
at the USC School of Medicine

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and a leading expert in cancer biology
and translational research.

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Welcome to Community Conversation.

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Thank you guys for having me.

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And for all these I don't I think I'm
just going to let you guys talk all night.

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No Keep going Rob.
We want to hear from you.

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We want to hear from you.

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I mean, I’m learning so much every day
just learning more and more and more

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and we love it.

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What excites you most about interacting
with the Cancer Center?

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VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center?

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Yeah, this is the first time
I've been in Richmond

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since last time I was here, when
we brought the first lady here to visit.

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It's

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turned towards the end of the pandemic,
and we brought Doctor Jill Biden down.

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So the First Lady's Office, let it let,
you know, let us know that they wanted

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to see a really good cancer center
that had a lot going on,

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but also wasn't like Hawaii.

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Wasn't too far away.

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And I was like,
I that place. Let’s go down to Richmond.

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So, because I knew
Rob would put on a terrific show and,

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and convey the enthusiasm and, excitement
around cancer research.

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It's it's, you know, it's this enterprise
where, like, basic science,

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this really cool cutting edge biology
then meets clinical care

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and then translates out to community
outreach for all patients so that we can,

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you know, not just see progress
at the tertiary care centers,

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but for rural America.

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So I thought this was a great example

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of what
the cancer center program had to offer.

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And it was really representative
of the exciting stuff going on in cancer

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research, in cancer
care at the present time.

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So what's the latest in research?

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I know

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we always talk about cancer with you,
but it's always something new

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for our community.

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And I'm I'm talking
from a community standpoint.

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When I say, what is the latest
talk about cancer?

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Yeah, I mean,
I think the important thing to know about

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cancer is it's not like one disease
or even like ten disease.

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It's like hundreds
or maybe thousands of diseases.

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So there's no silver bullet
that's going to fix it all.

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So what we're going to do

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is we're going to make progress
in lots of different areas.

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And what we'll see is cancer mortality,
you know, kind of go down gradually

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every year as it's been doing for the last
30 years in the United States.

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So we've seen a pretty massive reduction
in cancer death

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in the U.S., you know, adjusted for age
over the last 30 years.

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And it represents tons of things.

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It's it's better treatment.

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It's better prevention.

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It's,
you know, people not smoking as much.

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It's better screening.

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People get their mammograms
and their colonoscopy.

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It's better survivorship
after they get cured of their cancer

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than the rest of their life
is better for it.

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In terms of the less side effects
from treatment, a long term disability.

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So we think the whole, area is,

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you know, everything in cancer
is we're making some progress.

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Some areas more than others,
you know, we've seen,

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you know, these massive reductions
in lung cancer and,

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you know, less progress
in say pancreatic cancer.

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So we still have a long way to go.

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But the trend has been really good
for the last

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30 some years in the United States.

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So as a follow up to that.

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So you know we talk
because it's second nature to us.

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We talk about
the National Institutes of Health.

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And we talked about
the National Cancer Institute

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and we talk about designated
cancer centers.

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Can you put all that together
just a little bit.

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So as we're talking to people in
barbershops and beauty salons and places

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like Hanover and Bath around the areas
of our rural areas, Charles City County,

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can you actually help unpack a little bit
why those names...

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at a minimum, when people hear
they should go, you know what?

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That's an important thing to me.

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You mean like a little history
on the cancer center program?

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Yes, why it's important. Yeah.

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So it started with,
all, like, all the things Richard Nixon,

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Richard Nixon in

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1971, passed a law
that the National Cancer Act

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and the idea was to really make cancer
research

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in cancer care
a sort of priority for the U.S.

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government. And at that time, cancer
was like a total death sentence.

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Nobody did well, all kinds of
cancer were very high mortality.

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It was really led by
some patient advocates

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who mostly got excited
about childhood cancer.

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They saw

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that was starting to be possible to cure
a certain few kinds of childhood cancer.

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They said, like, this is possible.

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We can do better
for all our patients with cancer.

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That's the National Cancer
Act did lots of good things.

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It sort of created a funding mechanism
for the NCI.

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The National Cancer Institute.

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It made the NCI director
of presidential appointee,

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which is giving a sort of a focus.

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It created a national database of cancer
statistics called SEER,

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which is super important,

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and by the way, under threat
a little bit at the present moment.

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We could talk about that later,
but but one of the things it did,

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maybe the most important thing it did
was it created the Cancer Center Program.

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It said the NCI, the National Cancer
Institute, is going to designate hospitals

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that are really excellent at cancer care
as these comprehensive cancer centers.

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And and that became quickly
if you wanted to be a good hospital

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that took care of cancer
patients, you had to seek NCI designation.

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So it was like this

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terrific race of all these great centers
to try and get NCI designated.

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And it's very difficult.
It's a hard thing to do.

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It's a lot of work, but it means you're
committed to really great research.

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You're not just going to sort of sit
on your laurels and take care of patients.

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You're going to try to figure out how
to take care of cancer patients better.

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Great care.

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You have to really commit
to all aspects of cancer care.

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That's surgery and radiation
oncology prevention and screening.

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And then it's also outreach.

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It's not enough to just do this in the one
hospital in the middle of the city.

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You got to go out into the community.

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The catchment area is the thing we use.

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And you got to make a difference
for all your patients.

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And if you if you meet those, those,
those principles,

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then you will be an NCI designated cancer
center.

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There’s about 70 United States,
maybe a little more now.

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It's the best places to get cancer care.

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There are about 100 other places
that would like to be NCI designated.

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And so there are
a constant set of applications.

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So it leads to great places
like VCU Massey.

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Which is just a really outstanding place
to get cancer care.

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That's a really place.

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He worked really hard
along with his staff and researchers.

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I thought we were doing like a thousand
shows.

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Everything
just like really took over the radio.

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Right.

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Let's stop playing music

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because we're going to be this Massey
comprehensive designation.

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Well,
you know, communications is important.

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Communication is really important.

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And as we're talking about the changes
when it comes to cancer

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and it's not a one size fits all right.

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And we have disparities
when it comes to the black community.

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And I am so glad with VCU Massey Cancer
Comprehensive

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Cancer Center, we're having conversations,
real conversations about that

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because the cancer diagnosis,
when it comes to the mortality rate

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or the healing or access to quality
care, has always been an issue.

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So does that play into the conversation
when you're talking about cancers now?

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Yeah, no, I think, you know, this
is the topic of cancer health disparities.

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Like why why do some populations,

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with the same diagnosis do less well?

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And this can be because, you know, race.

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So, for example, women
with breast cancer do less

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well if they're African-American women
with breast cancer.

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This can be because of,
you know, educational status.

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So we know that socioeconomic status

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and access to education
correlates with outcome.

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This can be rurality.

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So it turns out that in the United States,

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rural patients used to do better
with cancer, like in the 1990s.

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It flipped, and now every year
that gap gets a little worse.

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So patients in urban areas get better care
generally than patients in rural areas.

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And you know, that's a big disparity
the NCI is very focused on.

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So you know, the National Cancer Institute
is sort of tasked to say it's not enough

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to make progress
for affluent patients that live in cities,

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you know, and make progress for everybody.

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And so addressing
disparities is a key priorities

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for the National Cancer Institute.

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So when I was, NCI Director of the Budget
for Disparities Research,

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the total budget for the NCI
is now about $7 billion...

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to put in perspective,
a year, for research.

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And it was about $350 million
for disparities research.

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And by the time I left,
it was like $450 million.

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So grew quite a lot.

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Doctor Sharpless, hold that thought.

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Okay. You going to hold that for me? Right
there.

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We're going to take a break
and come on back.

00;10;04;16 - 00;10;08;26
This is Community Conversations,
the Black Health Wins Podcast.

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I am this community club.

00;10;12;03 - 00;10;12;12
Yeah.

00;10;12;12 - 00;10;16;11
Welcome back to Community Conversations
the Black Health Wins podcast.

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Doctor Nia chapel,
this is my special guest.

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He's the big guy around here.

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Did you say big? The big guy.

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I got it right.
Come on now. Did I get it right.

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I’m not even going to call him Norman.

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Listen.

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Well,
anyway, we've been talking about cancer

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and the disparities,
and that number is up to 1 million now?

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So the, this was from back in 2022.

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So when I started,
it was like $350 million a year.

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By the time I left is $46 million a year.

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I think that reflects the fact
that, like, cancer

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disparities was kind of having a moment.

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People realized this was an area where
you could do really fruitful science.

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And the NCI got a lot of great
applications, these large grants

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to work in this topic and discovered
some really interesting stuff.

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You know, I, so when I was the director
of the National Cancer Institute,

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I used to sort of press the field to say
it's not enough to just like

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describe the situation and say,
oh, you know, poor people with cancer

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don't do as well
as for rich people with cancer.

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We've known that for like 50 years.
So what are you going to do about it?

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How are you to fix this?

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What what are the specific interventions
that matter?

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So, for example,
one of the one of the really exciting

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discoveries at that time was,

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you know,
looking at women with breast cancer,

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the ability to molecularly profile
the breast cancers became available.

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So breast cancer wasn't one disease.

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It was like lots of different diseases.

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And when this was done,
there was noted this, this very surprising

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correlation by race with specific subtypes
of breast cancer, the so called triple

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negative breast cancer.

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You know, that's not ER positive.
It's not HER-2 positive.

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That breast cancer was more likely
to occur in African-American women,

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and that breast cancer
has a worse prognosis.

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So it explains some of the reason

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why women who are black have a less
good prognosis for breast cancer.

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So that was a surprising finding.

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Nobody expected that would be the cause.

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Now you hear like Oprah Winfrey

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talking about, you know,
you got this different guy.

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I mean, it's a fact that we all know.

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But that was not always so.

00;12;06;29 - 00;12;10;00
So I think the science of understanding
why these disparities

00;12;10;00 - 00;12;13;17
exist is super interesting
and something the NCI should be funding.

00;12;13;27 - 00;12;16;03
But it's also the key
to like making a difference.

00;12;16;03 - 00;12;19;03
Like if, if that kind of breast cancer,
for example,

00;12;19;03 - 00;12;22;08
is not as easy
to pick up with mammography.

00;12;22;19 - 00;12;22;28
Right.

00;12;22;28 - 00;12;26;02
So so mammography still useful
for that breast cancer.

00;12;26;08 - 00;12;28;00
But it's not the most useful type.

00;12;28;00 - 00;12;31;22
So, you know, if you wanted to address
that particular aspect of disparity,

00;12;32;07 - 00;12;35;23
that disparity focusing on mammography
might not be the right way to go.

00;12;35;23 - 00;12;38;10
We're solely on mammography
might not be the right way to go.

00;12;38;10 - 00;12;39;19
So it's example after example.

00;12;39;19 - 00;12;41;10
So what way do we go?

00;12;41;10 - 00;12;43;13
What is the other way to go?

00;12;43;13 - 00;12;44;20
Well, so I think that,

00;12;45;24 - 00;12;46;17
you know, for

00;12;46;17 - 00;12;49;18
so so first of all, it's important
to say that,

00;12;49;18 - 00;12;53;22
women in the United States are at risk for
breast cancer regardless of their race.

00;12;53;22 - 00;12;55;22
Right? It's absolutely common disease.

00;12;55;22 - 00;13;00;02
And all women should be appropriately
screened for breast cancer.

00;13;00;09 - 00;13;03;02
And the details of like what mammography
screening is right for you

00;13;03;02 - 00;13;06;07
kind of depends on your age
and your family history.

00;13;06;16 - 00;13;10;05
And, talk to your doctor, but,
you know, mammography saves lives.

00;13;10;06 - 00;13;12;27
I recommend that.
So I don't want anyone to say I want to.

00;13;12;27 - 00;13;15;02
I don't even want to imply that like,

00;13;15;02 - 00;13;16;28
oh, triple negative breast
cancer is not as good for screening.

00;13;16;28 - 00;13;19;14
So black women shouldn't get a mammogram
That's not true.

00;13;19;14 - 00;13;20;21
That's not true.

00;13;20;21 - 00;13;21;06
Right.

00;13;21;06 - 00;13;24;29
But, you know, if you were to get, triple
negative breast cancer,

00;13;25;08 - 00;13;29;21
first of all, that kind of breast cancer
has some family history, right?

00;13;29;21 - 00;13;32;21
So there are germline,
you know, they're they're

00;13;32;21 - 00;13;36;06
genes associated, like, breast cancers
important to know about.

00;13;36;20 - 00;13;38;19
The treatment is quite different.

00;13;38;19 - 00;13;41;10
So, you know, the care you would get

00;13;41;10 - 00;13;44;10
would be, somewhat different for
I got breast cancer.

00;13;44;10 - 00;13;46;14
So important thing to know about.

00;13;46;14 - 00;13;51;18
And the, the, the modest increase in risk
by race is a surprising finding.

00;13;51;25 - 00;13;55;19
And that's just one of,
like, hundreds of examples of these things

00;13;55;19 - 00;13;59;02
that we started
focusing on, like who gets pancreas

00;13;59;02 - 00;14;03;02
cancer for what reason and how do you get
rid of these disparities.

00;14;03;02 - 00;14;06;27
And so I think it's, a really
fruitful thing for the NCI to study.

00;14;07;08 - 00;14;09;19
And I think
it's a good use of federal monies,

00;14;09;19 - 00;14;11;12
and we ought to keep doing it.

00;14;11;12 - 00;14;16;15
And I say this and I maybe sound a little
is wrong on this topic, but it's because

00;14;16;24 - 00;14;21;27
I think cancer disparities as a science is
a little bit under attack at the moment.

00;14;22;08 - 00;14;23;16
Rob, would you agree?

00;14;23;16 - 00;14;24;29
I would absolutely agree.

00;14;24;29 - 00;14;27;16
And, you know,
and thank you for bringing out that.

00;14;27;16 - 00;14;32;05
The fact of the matter
is that we, with what you brought

00;14;32;26 - 00;14;35;14
and what you brought to the attention
of all of our cancer centers,

00;14;36;16 - 00;14;39;05
was that we saw it as a science
independent of everything.

00;14;39;05 - 00;14;42;02
If there was a community
that was doing less well than the others,

00;14;42;02 - 00;14;44;08
there's no value judgment, there's
no anything else.

00;14;44;08 - 00;14;45;28
It's just research.

00;14;45;28 - 00;14;48;24
And I think what you've allowed us to do
is cancer centers.

00;14;48;24 - 00;14;50;01
And I mean, all the cancer centers out

00;14;50;01 - 00;14;53;04
the country was to elevate
our game and say, you know what?

00;14;53;14 - 00;14;56;15
Triple negative breast cancer, 
As an example, why is that?

00;14;56;15 - 00;14;59;14
Or how come African American men
get more of this?

00;14;59;14 - 00;15;02;25
Or how come rule people
are actually starting to see the truth

00;15;02;25 - 00;15;05;24
and matters
as we talk about the power of science

00;15;06;11 - 00;15;10;00
and getting it to impact of community,
I again,

00;15;10;13 - 00;15;13;27
I get goosebumps
because this is the guy who, for me and

00;15;13;27 - 00;15;16;27
for many of the cancer center directors
around the country, sort of said,

00;15;17;01 - 00;15;21;13
don't just again,
do the science, make it the highest level.

00;15;21;20 - 00;15;24;26
And as a result of that,
whether it's genetics or molecular

00;15;24;26 - 00;15;29;13
or whether it's looking at different ways
in which people respond to therapies,

00;15;29;26 - 00;15;32;19
we now actually come up with treatments
not just because

00;15;32;19 - 00;15;35;03
we pulled them from the sky,
but based on the research

00;15;35;03 - 00;15;38;26
that came out of these cancer centers
in the NCI that are helping

00;15;38;26 - 00;15;42;16
to guide us to treat people that,
you know the best possible way.

00;15;42;19 - 00;15;45;23
When we say precision medicine,
it's really person based medicine.

00;15;46;01 - 00;15;46;29
And what I love.

00;15;46;29 - 00;15;47;27
Precision medicine?

00;15;47;27 - 00;15;50;05
You know,
the person person based medicine.

00;15;50;05 - 00;15;53;18
Precision medicine, which is that
can we find what's the right drug for you?

00;15;53;26 - 00;15;56;25
I always want to say that
what I've learned from Doctor Sharpless

00;15;56;25 - 00;15;58;16
was that it's all about people
and communities.

00;15;58;16 - 00;15;59;28
It's person based medicine.

00;15;59;28 - 00;16;02;13
So if I find the
right target for you. Yeah,

00;16;03;12 - 00;16;04;04
it's clinical.

00;16;04;04 - 00;16;05;16
It’s now personalized
to where clinical trials

00;16;05;16 - 00;16;08;16
that because, you know, what we’re
with somebody who does clinical trials

00;16;08;25 - 00;16;11;19
since day one. Clovia, am I lying?

00;16;11;19 - 00;16;15;11
That's the only way when we talk about

00;16;15;28 - 00;16;19;14
for some reason you're not a guinea pig
when it comes to clinical trials.

00;16;19;14 - 00;16;23;25
But we need to understand what type
of medicine works exactly for you.

00;16;24;09 - 00;16;26;29
Doctor Winn taught me that.

00;16;26;29 - 00;16;27;07
That's.

00;16;27;07 - 00;16;29;01
That's great to hear we’ve been, you know.

00;16;29;01 - 00;16;31;27
I’m glad to see that you,
the message is getting out.

00;16;31;27 - 00;16;34;00
You know, it's been it's
been a hard recruiting patients

00;16;34;00 - 00;16;35;26
to cancer clinical trials
throughout the years.

00;16;35;26 - 00;16;39;16
And we still don't have enough patients
with cancer participate with trials.

00;16;39;16 - 00;16;43;03
And some of that I think
is just like access to the trial.

00;16;43;03 - 00;16;45;29
And you can't take a day off to work
going over.

00;16;45;29 - 00;16;49;03
But some of that is also there's still a
lingering suspicion around clinical trials

00;16;49;03 - 00;16;51;00
that you're going to be a guinea pig
or something like that.

00;16;51;00 - 00;16;52;18
And it's not the case.

00;16;52;18 - 00;16;54;25
Those patients get the best possible care.

00;16;54;25 - 00;16;58;19
And, at the same time help humanity
figure out what's best for quality

00;16;58;19 - 00;16;59;27
for all patients with cancer.

00;16;59;27 - 00;17;02;02
I was thinking about Clo,
and I was going to,

00;17;02;02 - 00;17;04;01
you know,
thinking of Doctor Sharpless too.

00;17;04;01 - 00;17;07;25
But as you are thinking
about the messaging, I know you’re

00;17;07;26 - 00;17;10;00
at the NCI
and you've been in the community.

00;17;10;00 - 00;17;13;27
Over the last few years,
how have you been finding that

00;17;13;27 - 00;17;16;10
you need to either message
differently to have impact?

00;17;16;10 - 00;17;18;23
How do you guys, you know,
think about that?

00;17;18;23 - 00;17;20;15
Because at the NCI, it's
not just the science.

00;17;20;15 - 00;17;21;27
It's also
how do you communicate the science.

00;17;21;27 - 00;17;24;15
So and you I've been learning
so much from you.

00;17;24;15 - 00;17;27;03
You said you remember the very first time
we got together Dr. Sharpless?

00;17;27;03 - 00;17;29;29
It was, I had a, we were doing this.

00;17;29;29 - 00;17;30;20
Oh no white coats.

00;17;30;20 - 00;17;33;18
Didn't you say and no jargon I go,
what am I going to talk about?

00;17;35;23 - 00;17;36;18
What I've learned

00;17;36;18 - 00;17;39;15
from Community Clovia,
that really this kind of...

00;17;39;15 - 00;17;41;02
You're making it plain

00;17;41;02 - 00;17;45;18
that people in the communities aren't
as, uneducated as we think they are.

00;17;45;18 - 00;17;47;09
They're very educated, in fact,

00;17;47;09 - 00;17;50;22
they're incredibly sophisticated
if we communicate.

00;17;51;08 - 00;17;53;09
So I was going to ask you in then Dr.

00;17;53;09 - 00;17;54;01
Sharpless, because I know hear it.

00;17;54;01 - 00;17;55;16
These are one of the few times
I get to ask you,

00;17;55;16 - 00;17;58;14
how do you in the communication changes
since you've been around?

00;17;58;14 - 00;18;01;16
And then Doctor
Sharpless is going to ask from the NCI

00;18;01;16 - 00;18;04;27
what was your communication strategy
to make sure that people weren't afraid

00;18;04;27 - 00;18;07;27
of the science that we were doing,
but accepting of it?

00;18;08;11 - 00;18;10;12
I think the first thing

00;18;10;12 - 00;18;14;16
we had a doctor who lost their license,
who was doing breast imaging,

00;18;15;14 - 00;18;18;06
and I was afraid
when we started doing the show

00;18;18;06 - 00;18;22;06
and we were talking about it,
and then our insurance companies

00;18;22;21 - 00;18;26;04
like, hey, you can get an extra mammogram
because, well, we'd do it once a year

00;18;26;04 - 00;18;27;11
in the physical.

00;18;27;11 - 00;18;31;08
I'm on the show doing the show with Doctor
Robert Winn, and I said, Doctor Winn,

00;18;31;08 - 00;18;34;08
whenever you think about the C-word, it's
scary.

00;18;34;14 - 00;18;36;28
It's just completely scary.

00;18;36;28 - 00;18;40;13
And he started talking to me and he said,
go on, come on over the Massey

00;18;40;13 - 00;18;41;28
and get your mammogram. I said,

00;18;43;00 - 00;18;43;08
I thought you’ve got to.

00;18;43;08 - 00;18;46;04
I thought, you have to have a diagnosis.
He said, no.

00;18;46;04 - 00;18;51;23
And then the way we start converse,
having a conversation about cancer,

00;18;52;05 - 00;18;55;00
a conversation about testing and clinical

00;18;55;00 - 00;18;58;08
trials, I was opened up
because you think about it.

00;18;58;08 - 00;19;01;18
You had your mammogram done
with a person who was a doctor

00;19;01;18 - 00;19;04;18
who lost his license
you’re like do I got it?

00;19;04;22 - 00;19;08;10
But then when I'm talking to him,
he the conversation was so easy

00;19;08;19 - 00;19;09;22
to talk about cancer.

00;19;09;22 - 00;19;14;12
You talk about diagnosis, you talk about
early detection is key and more.

00;19;14;19 - 00;19;17;18
And it's all in the way
you have a conversation.

00;19;17;18 - 00;19;18;19
I know you doctors.

00;19;18;19 - 00;19;21;06
You all get in there with the patients
that stone faced.

00;19;21;06 - 00;19;25;19
That is not good because we're going to be
wondering what it is that you're saying.

00;19;25;27 - 00;19;27;20
And it looks negative.

00;19;27;20 - 00;19;29;25
So you can soften your face a little bit.

00;19;29;25 - 00;19;30;21
Makes us feel better.

00;19;30;21 - 00;19;31;25
That's right. And Dr.

00;19;31;25 - 00;19;34;17
Sharpless,
how did you, when I wanted two questions.

00;19;34;17 - 00;19;37;14
When you were at the NCI,
how did you think about communication and

00;19;37;14 - 00;19;40;14
how do you think in the last year or so,

00;19;40;22 - 00;19;43;28
that your communication,
your communication strategy has changed?

00;19;44;24 - 00;19;46;08
Well, I mean, I think the,

00;19;47;19 - 00;19;49;25
the for better
or for worse, the thing that has changed

00;19;49;25 - 00;19;52;25
sides, communication
for the rest of our lives has been Covid.

00;19;53;13 - 00;19;53;22
Right.

00;19;53;22 - 00;19;56;07
And I was I was a federal official
during the pandemic.

00;19;56;07 - 00;19;58;14
And I think,

00;19;58;14 - 00;20;00;21
you know, the expertise for vaccine

00;20;00;21 - 00;20;04;01
hesitancy surprisingly leads
the National Cancer Institute.

00;20;04;01 - 00;20;06;19
Not the other parts of government.

00;20;06;19 - 00;20;08;15
Which is a surprise,
you think the CDC would do this?

00;20;08;15 - 00;20;11;02
Or maybe the FDA
or maybe some other part of the NIH.

00;20;11;02 - 00;20;13;27
But the reason the expertise lives
at the NCI is because the NCI has been

00;20;13;27 - 00;20;17;22
trying to get people to take the human
papillomavirus, you know, HPV

00;20;18;03 - 00;20;21;21
for like 30 years, and the Hepatitis
B vaccine, the vaccine as well.

00;20;21;21 - 00;20;25;24
So so there are all these experts on like
how to tell people how to talk to people

00;20;25;24 - 00;20;29;24
about vaccines and how, you know, allay
the fears that these medicines are scary.

00;20;30;12 - 00;20;34;00
And, so before
at the beginning of the pandemic,

00;20;34;21 - 00;20;38;20
before we had a vaccine, the, 
the the federal government

00;20;38;20 - 00;20;40;14
asked these investigators, the NCI

00;20;40;14 - 00;20;43;09
what working with some other people at the
NIH to write a report on

00;20;43;09 - 00;20;46;17
how should the day that the vaccine
finally becomes available,

00;20;46;26 - 00;20;50;21
how should we message this and make sure
you talk about it the right way so that,

00;20;50;21 - 00;20;53;21
you know, we would ensure maximal uptake

00;20;53;29 - 00;20;56;17
and this report is just, tragic to read.

00;20;56;17 - 00;20;58;10
It's,
you know, you know, the story of, like,

00;20;58;10 - 00;21;01;25
Cassandra could tell the future, but
a curse was no one would listen to her.

00;21;02;09 - 00;21;03;26
That's that's this report.

00;21;03;26 - 00;21;07;08
And it basically, you know, like,
everything it said, don't do about,

00;21;07;27 - 00;21;11;17
you know, talking about vaccines
in some way or shape got got broken

00;21;11;17 - 00;21;12;24
somewhere along the way.

00;21;12;24 - 00;21;16;11
And, and I watched this happen
with kind of horro, and like and rule

00;21;16;11 - 00;21;19;24
number one when talking about
complicated scientific issues.

00;21;19;24 - 00;21;22;24
Hold that thought for rule number one,
I can't wait.

00;21;23;09 - 00;21;24;01
Hold that.

00;21;24;01 - 00;21;25;11
We'll be back after this.

00;21;25;11 - 00;21;28;11
This is Community Conversations.

00;21;28;11 - 00;21;30;02
The Black Health Wins podcast.

00;21;31;25 - 00;21;33;17
I am Miss Community Clovia.

00;21;33;17 - 00;21;38;02
Welcome back to Community Conversations
and the Black Health Wins podcast.

00;21;38;02 - 00;21;42;18
We've been talking about cancer, having
a real talk breaking it all the way down.

00;21;42;23 - 00;21;44;25
And we got Doctor Ned Sharpless with us.

00;21;44;25 - 00;21;48;00
He's the leader, the big guy
when it comes to the NCI.

00;21;48;03 - 00;21;49;10
He was formerly there.

00;21;49;10 - 00;21;52;10
And we talk about the cutting edge
of research for cancer.

00;21;52;12 - 00;21;56;28
And we've been talking about the NCI
and how you had those communications.

00;21;56;29 - 00;21;58;27
And you get this big report back

00;21;58;27 - 00;22;01;24
and you're like,
don't do this, this, this, this, this.

00;22;01;24 - 00;22;04;09
And you say, let's start with number one.

00;22;04;09 - 00;22;04;15
Yeah.

00;22;04;15 - 00;22;08;23
So this is a report on
how to talk to the American public

00;22;08;23 - 00;22;12;03
about complicated issues
about science, like a vaccine.

00;22;12;09 - 00;22;12;21
Right.

00;22;12;21 - 00;22;17;05
And so, people who work for me wrote
a great report and, you know, identified

00;22;17;05 - 00;22;20;05
using science all these things you're
not supposed to do, it's supposed to do.

00;22;20;08 - 00;22;23;23
And rule number one of all the,
you know, the 15 rules or whatever

00;22;24;08 - 00;22;27;08
was don't politicize the topic.

00;22;27;17 - 00;22;30;18
If it gets political,
you'll turn people off.

00;22;31;01 - 00;22;35;12
And, and then I watched
and this is a bipartisan statement

00;22;35;12 - 00;22;39;10
and members of both political parties
at some point or another said, oh,

00;22;39;10 - 00;22;40;29
I'm not going to take that vaccine.

00;22;40;29 - 00;22;43;13
It's a Republican vaccine
or some Democratic vaccine.

00;22;43;13 - 00;22;45;15
You lose half your audience. Yeah.

00;22;45;15 - 00;22;48;24
And that is a really important message
for science in general,

00;22;49;09 - 00;22;52;17
that science is just,
it's just a research endeavor.

00;22;52;25 - 00;22;55;28
I it'd be clear that maybe it's
it's important to veer into my politics

00;22;55;28 - 00;22;56;19
briefly.

00;22;56;19 - 00;22;59;19
I was probably the most liberal member
of the Trump administration

00;22;59;25 - 00;23;02;16
and the most conservative member
of the Biden administration.

00;23;02;16 - 00;23;04;23
I am straight down the middle here.

00;23;04;23 - 00;23;08;29
I worked for two presidents,
you know, and really different

00;23;09;15 - 00;23;11;05
departments of health and services.

00;23;11;05 - 00;23;14;27
And I can say that, you know,
the reason it was fine is because cancer

00;23;14;28 - 00;23;16;07
is A-political.

00;23;16;07 - 00;23;19;09
Republicans get cancer,
democrats get it, rich people get cancer,

00;23;19;09 - 00;23;21;23
poor people get cancer.
We all want to do better for cancer.

00;23;21;23 - 00;23;25;07
There's nobody in government who's like,
oh, cancer research is a waste of money.

00;23;25;07 - 00;23;28;07
I mean, everybody supports
making progress for patients with cancer.

00;23;28;10 - 00;23;30;03
It's something we all agree on.

00;23;30;03 - 00;23;34;17
And so we had a complicated topic,
you know, like cancer.

00;23;34;20 - 00;23;37;18
I mean, it were like carcinogens
in the environment.

00;23;37;18 - 00;23;41;21
You know, P-foss, radiation or radon
or whatever were vaccines.

00;23;42;00 - 00;23;44;26
It's just best to say, here's
what the science tells us

00;23;44;26 - 00;23;48;11
in clear,
concise way that everybody understands.

00;23;48;18 - 00;23;51;08
So that's what I learned about
communications the hard way.

00;23;52;12 - 00;23;53;10
Science is not

00;23;53;10 - 00;23;57;07
doing how simple, apolitical and true.

00;23;57;09 - 00;23;58;25
Yeah. That's what you got to do.

00;23;58;25 - 00;23;59;19
I asked Dr.

00;23;59;19 - 00;24;02;24
Winn when we were doing Covid,
he was like Clo, the science is still out.

00;24;02;24 - 00;24;04;28
I said okay. That is good for me.

00;24;04;28 - 00;24;07;10
But you know,
I think what you just sort of said is that

00;24;07;10 - 00;24;10;22
I think that most people
and it's our fault.

00;24;10;22 - 00;24;15;07
We don't always, we've celebrated,
we've had lots of really good science,

00;24;15;07 - 00;24;18;16
but we have not always been so great
about disseminating this information

00;24;19;01 - 00;24;23;02
in real terms to real people that says,
you know, we have 34% fewer people now

00;24;23;03 - 00;24;26;03
dying from cancer
in the United States than we did in 1991.

00;24;26;10 - 00;24;28;26
That didn't happen
because people are eating more kale.

00;24;28;26 - 00;24;31;15
I wish they were,
and drinking more carrot juice.

00;24;31;15 - 00;24;33;10
That came
because we had this national team

00;24;33;10 - 00;24;36;27
with great leaders like Doctor Sharpless,
who actually reminded us

00;24;37;03 - 00;24;41;09
that our job is to do the science
and the science.

00;24;41;27 - 00;24;45;08
If we do it right, figures out
how to have the greatest impact

00;24;45;08 - 00;24;47;04
for the greatest number of people
in the United States.

00;24;47;04 - 00;24;48;00
And I and I think

00;24;48;00 - 00;24;51;00
that the one thing about science
is that most people do understand that

00;24;51;00 - 00;24;55;02
he's also the guy, some before him
Bob Croyle and many others.

00;24;55;21 - 00;24;58;21
But I have to brag on them
just a little bit.

00;24;59;02 - 00;25;00;16
He's one of the first people
that actually,

00;25;00;16 - 00;25;02;25
you know,
we had giants, people like, Harrold P.

00;25;02;25 - 00;25;07;00
Freeman and Bob Croyle,
many people who understood that

00;25;07;03 - 00;25;08;11
it's not just the discovery

00;25;08;11 - 00;25;12;17
of the miracle molecule that becomes
the miracle medicine, but the connection

00;25;12;17 - 00;25;15;24
of that to the health delivery
that that is a science to.

00;25;16;08 - 00;25;20;12
And so when we start actually recognizing
that in addition to the discovery,

00;25;20;12 - 00;25;23;15
there was the delivery,
it really made a difference.

00;25;23;15 - 00;25;27;01
And I I'm going to brag on him
because he also was one of the people

00;25;27;01 - 00;25;29;06
that said,
you need to bring rigor to the delivery.

00;25;29;06 - 00;25;29;28
And we did.

00;25;29;28 - 00;25;32;28
We heard it and I think some
great scientist come in as a result.

00;25;32;28 - 00;25;34;11
I think people have benefited.

00;25;34;11 - 00;25;35;26
Yeah, I think so too.

00;25;35;26 - 00;25;38;04
I would say the cancer centers
have been a really important part of this.

00;25;38;04 - 00;25;42;17
So we did a study
in the early days of lung cancer was new

00;25;42;17 - 00;25;44;02
therapy had become available,
it was a pill.

00;25;44;02 - 00;25;46;00
It was a much better therapy.

00;25;46;00 - 00;25;47;24
It worked better, it was less toxic.

00;25;47;24 - 00;25;49;26
It was better in every way.

00;25;49;26 - 00;25;52;21
And and it had been FDA approved
and was clearly

00;25;52;21 - 00;25;56;10
this was like,
you know, 2017 was not that long ago.

00;25;56;12 - 00;25;56;23
Yeah.

00;25;56;23 - 00;26;00;10
And we found out that,
you know, in the community,

00;26;00;16 - 00;26;04;06
something like 60, 70% of patients
weren't getting the therapy.

00;26;04;10 - 00;26;06;29
Whereas in cancer centers,
you know, the inappropriate patients

00;26;06;29 - 00;26;09;25
had to be figured out
by this exotic molecular test.

00;26;09;25 - 00;26;11;03
It was a little complicated.

00;26;11;03 - 00;26;14;03
And the cancer centers,
everybody was getting therapy

00;26;14;11 - 00;26;17;01
and we were like, wow,
that is really a problem

00;26;17;01 - 00;26;20;25
that we have not gotten
this obvious scientific

00;26;21;01 - 00;26;24;26
discovery of clear
benefit out into the community setting.

00;26;25;09 - 00;26;26;20
And so we always thought

00;26;26;20 - 00;26;29;29
of the cancer centers as like,
you know, that's our boots on the ground.

00;26;29;29 - 00;26;33;04
They're the people that go out and do,
you know, the great stuff that Rob does

00;26;33;04 - 00;26;37;18
to try and let everybody know about cancer
in the Richmond and Virginia area.

00;26;37;29 - 00;26;39;29
Well, thank you so much.

00;26;39;29 - 00;26;40;28
I want to clap it up for you.

00;26;43;09 - 00;26;45;28
Well, if you're just joining us
Community Conversations,

00;26;45;28 - 00;26;49;16
a Black Health Wins podcast,
we have Doctor Sharpless joining us.

00;26;49;16 - 00;26;52;27
He's currently a professor of cancer
policy and innovation

00;26;52;27 - 00;26;54;11
at the UNC School of Medicine,

00;26;54;11 - 00;26;58;22
and a leading expert in cancer
biology and translation research.

00;26;58;22 - 00;27;00;03
You just heard from him.

00;27;00;03 - 00;27;01;22
Thank you so much for being here.

00;27;01;22 - 00;27;04;02
And you're going to help this
all the way up because we got to go.

00;27;04;02 - 00;27;06;22
Well, you know what I'm saying?
I was just thinking about Queens today.

00;27;06;22 - 00;27;09;02
We are the champions. We. Oh, yeah.

00;27;09;02 - 00;27;11;21
Yeah. Go ahead.

00;27;11;21 - 00;27;13;05
That’s it. We got this.

00;27;13;05 - 00;27;17;11
That's going to do it I am Miss Community
Clovia yeah that's doctor Robert Winn

00;27;17;11 - 00;27;20;20
director of the VCU Massey
Comprehensive Cancer Center.

00;27;20;27 - 00;27;25;07
That's going to do it for Community Conversations, the Black Health Wins Podcast.