00;00;00;06 - 00;00;08;13 Paul Goldberg Doctor Winn thank you for finding the time to talk with me. I hope you have. You had a great summer. 00;00;08;16 - 00;00;12;20 Dr. Rob Winn As summer has been going too quickly, but it's been a good one. 00;00;12;23 - 00;00;52;24 Paul Goldberg That’s fantastic. So, we are here to talk about something that you started, which is called the Executive Leadership Academy for Cancer Centers. And, it, I should say much faster Executive Leadership Academy for Cancer Centers. And, you know, what's fascinating about this, that, is, is that for years, well, really years, for decades, cancer centers have been run by people who kind of rose through the ranks without any specific training to run the cancer centers. 00;00;52;24 - 00;00;56;20 Dr. Rob Winn And you've set up a different approach. 00;00;56;22 - 00;01;21;28 Paul Goldberg Yeah. You know, a, I will say that, like all things right, it evolves over time. And cancer center leadership has really been done by apprenticeship, meaning that you find someone who's a good scientist and you say, yeah, of course they're going to have good administrative skills. And then we put them in roles like program leaders, or we put them in roles like associate directors and deputy directors. 00;01;22;01 - 00;01;49;22 Paul Goldberg And when they struggle, we sort of scratch our head like, why are they struggling? Not recognizing that? The reality is that with cancer center leadership, that there's specific roles and duties, and for program leaders, there's for civic relationships of how the program leaders relate to the associate director, what are the associate directors responsibilities and how they interact with, not only their program leaders, but with the deputy director and the director and the rest of the team in a cancer center. 00;01;49;22 - 00;02;19;04 Paul Goldberg So I think what I recognized was just that while there were lots of leadership training specifically for leaders to become deans, for the AAMC leaders to become chairs, there was not really any single training specific to the CCSG aspects. The cancer center service, you know, science grant, as well as the cancer center, that we actually had in the United States. 00;02;19;04 - 00;02;40;12 Dr. Rob Winn And so I had a big, bold idea that and an moment that why not actually fill in that gap with an actual leadership academy that focuses not on just leadership, but actually on CCSG knowledge and content, and and start with a good, solid foundation of that pool of future leaders. 00;02;40;15 - 00;03;02;08 Paul Goldberg Yeah. Well, let's do some history. It was I from what I gather, it was the, it was an outgrowth of Karen Knudsen’s study that she started as a AACI president, and then Caryn Lerman continue that. And then you became the AACI president. And that was when your ‘aha’ moment occurred. Is that correct? 00;03;02;10 - 00;03;27;06 Dr. Rob Winn Absolutely. What I I'll say is that the, the, it was certainly been an influence of Karen's and your work, by the way, the publication that you had were in cancer later during the doing our period of Covid, as, the ELACC probably the first iteration of this came about somewhere in 22, 2020, probably 22. It took over. 00;03;27;08 - 00;03;52;05 Dr. Rob Winn It took over a year. It took over a year plus to sort of then, you know, kind of get it, fluffed up enough that it would be more than a concept. And we had a curriculum and I have to give, thanks to Anita Harrison, who is, one of my associate directors for scientific strategies. Who really, her and her team, spent significant time fluffing up the curriculum for this program. 00;03;52;09 - 00;04;09;18 Dr. Rob Winn But you're absolutely right. I think Caryn Lerman's, run when she was at the AACI I think, Karen's run when she was at the AACI Both you can see elements of how that certainly has, influenced, this ELACC program. 00;04;09;21 - 00;04;15;03 Paul Goldberg Oh, fascinating. So but you started it within your institution right. 00;04;15;05 - 00;04;16;22 Paul Goldberg Or you know the, the. 00;04;16;25 - 00;04;38;14 Dr. Rob Winn Yeah. The funny part about how this all started was that I literally was thinking that, that as we talk about, what I now and I'm calling having a, a person to look at my shop as the AED for, leadership and professional development that we say leadership of professional development. 00;04;38;14 - 00;05;00;06 Dr. Rob Winn And we conflated all the time with, education and training. They're not the same. In fact, when I think of seer tech or the education and training component, it really is training the next generation of scientists, training the next generation of clinician clinical trialists But inherent in that is not the training of professional development, as it relates to leaders. 00;05;00;09 - 00;05;29;07 Dr. Rob Winn And so, in 22, I had the bright idea that we were doing certainly training lots of, people to go out and be successful scientists and successful academics and successful clinical trialists But there wasn't really a focused, rigorous program literally around, leadership. And as you think about most cancer centers in the United States, leadership actually does matter. 00;05;29;10 - 00;05;52;11 Dr. Rob Winn And so, not to actually have as much focus on the leadership component, had me sort of saying we needed to address that. And so I came up with the program, and with, my team with Anita and, lots of other people involved. But we came up with this concept of the ELACC program for leadership, executive leadership. 00;05;52;13 - 00;06;04;17 Dr. Rob Winn That was supposed to be specific to just VCU Massey. I didn't even have any other thoughts other than VCU Massey at the time when this program was created. 00;06;04;19 - 00;06;26;22 Paul Goldberg I like the way you kind of worked in Simone’s maxim. Jo Simone’s line leadership does matter. And it's just it's, it's very nice, it's very artful that the way you did it, he, he would he would probably approve of this idea. But but you're really setting it up for your own institution. But I think you've also got other institutions involved. 00;06;26;22 - 00;06;34;28 Paul Goldberg Can you actually cannot. So other cancer centers could join this. Is there a curriculum? How how does it work? 00;06;35;00 - 00;06;52;22 Dr. Rob Winn You know, it turned into an interesting question that you have. And the answer is yes. There was a nine month curriculum literally focused on everything CCSG what to table for, but C to what you know, what do you do? You know how many, you know, pages in a, in a, in a grant. What do you, you know, how do you finance a grant? 00;06;52;23 - 00;07;28;09 Dr. Rob Winn How much money comes from CCSG? What? So we have a whole nine month training of young leaders, potential leaders who are, probably more well versed in CCSG than even, I would say, most of their senior leaders in their institution number one, the second nine month is structured so that we are teaching three things the soft skills of being a leader, the hard skills of being a leader, and the financial skills that are actually, I mean, absolutely necessary to learn how to, manage a budget within a cancer center, whether you're a deputy director or a director or an AD or program leader. 00;07;28;11 - 00;07;56;24 Dr. Rob Winn So with an 18 month program, it's funded by us, the cancer center, we essentially, will allow people to have ten. We'll pay for 10% FTE. You know, to answer your question specifically, you're right. We couldn't do it alone. We figured out that we were trying to do this with just us, and it became quite apparent that we probably needed to actually have another partner to to really have a robust cohort of around 12 or 13 people. 00;07;56;27 - 00;08;17;28 Dr. Rob Winn And so to do that, it was suggested, that, by Anita Harrison, who's on our team, that we partner up with a similarly-like institution. So we went with, the Hollings Cancer Center in South Carolina, with Ray Dubois, who actually has been nothing but an amazing partner and Ben Tolls who's been down there. 00;08;18;00 - 00;08;21;08 Dr. Rob Winn I mean, both those guys have just been dynamite. 00;08;21;10 - 00;08;28;22 Paul Goldberg Can you bring in more people, can you bring in more institutions? Can you make it into sort of a national program? 00;08;28;24 - 00;08;54;13 Dr. Rob Winn We're at a program right now where I never thought I would say this, but this program, in its inception, was kind of a cool idea. But now, since we're really going through the program itself, we're bringing in some of the best national leaders from both the NIH, the NCI, from the business world. But we're also bringing in top people from the world of cancer, particularly Aids or program leaders that will come in and says, I never knew what a program leader was. 00;08;54;13 - 00;09;20;03 Dr. Rob Winn I was just put in this position. And here's what happened positively and here's what happened negatively, and here's what I wish that were learned. Almost everybody that interacted with this very first cohort says the following. I wish I had this when I was at your stage, I mean universal. So as a result of that success and we are now collecting the data and putting it together, you know, with, you know, collecting it with evaluation process. 00;09;20;07 - 00;09;40;24 Dr. Rob Winn So we're hoping to also have a paper that comes out of this. We now think that what was supposed to be just a local effort, we think we can actually, be able to effectively and efficiently, through a governance structure, be able to accommodate more cancer centers for a national or more of a national sort of movement and flavor to this. 00;09;40;29 - 00;09;45;24 Dr. Rob Winn And we would welcome other cancer centers to the table, to be quite honest with you. 00;09;45;26 - 00;10;01;07 Paul Goldberg But there's no money involved, meaning you don't have to spend money to join that. You don't have to put in money to, to, to enroll. It's it's a revenue neutral thing. It's something you do, kind of in your spare time. 00;10;01;09 - 00;10;21;07 Dr. Rob Winn You know? Yeah. Right. Exactly. You know what the wonderful part about this is? That every institution I participate, we would ask, they would be at least willing to pay for 10% FTE for the individual participating in the programs. We thought that the ideal cohort. And this is why we partnered, and, you know, let's give credit where credit is due. 00;10;21;10 - 00;10;53;22 Dr. Rob Winn We also watch other amazing programs like the ELAM program, the executive Leadership Academy of Medicine, which is a program geared towards creating the next generation of women, who would become chairs and deans. We actually are, are very broad. We don't have any, any, sort of restrictions on who can be other than they need to be young, aspiring junior faculty that have a track record and a desire to, in their future, potentially want to be program leaders or ADs or deputies or directors. 00;10;53;22 - 00;11;16;13 Dr. Rob Winn That's the only requirement. The second requirement is that the institution itself would release them for 10% FTE time, because it's important that they're getting, I mean, top notch, incredibly valuable information through our workshops that we have with them virtually, physically, they get together only twice a year. So we've made it so that it is not very cumbersome for any institution to participate. 00;11;16;21 - 00;11;37;22 Dr. Rob Winn There are two physical meetings a year, and we're hoping that and in the future that we bring everybody together at an AACI meeting annually at some point. But the cost is fairly minimal. We can cover 10% of the cost of the FTE’s of your participant. Getting in that would be great. By the way, it is a it is a competition. 00;11;37;22 - 00;12;05;00 Dr. Rob Winn We decided that, we had a committee that picked out for us the six most, what we believed at the time to be the most effective junior faculty with the most potential to be administrators, or leaders in their cancer centers, both, and, Hollings and at VCU. So we think that, cohorts of anywhere between 12 and 15 would work. 00;12;05;03 - 00;12;16;18 Dr. Rob Winn We thinking about having, if we do this nationally, having regional cohorts that, you know, so that the time issue of doing, virtual meetings would, would not be hindered so much. 00;12;16;21 - 00;12;39;25 Paul Goldberg But, you know, there is always this having covered this field for many years, I've seen this nightmare scenario where a very, very smart person, either a clinician or a scientist got together where we're going becomes a cancer center director and the whole thing flops like you would not believe. And it takes a while and a lot of people are dragged down. 00;12;39;28 - 00;12;55;16 Paul Goldberg Or the other thing can be where a cancer center director does pretty well. Having learned this stuff by osmosis or whatever, and then ends up becoming kind of, kind of, kind of a traveling show. 00;12;55;19 - 00;13;21;28 Dr. Rob Winn Yeah. Oh my God, I, you know, and I'm being polite about this, but you just hit on something that I think has always been unfair to the cancer center directors. There's certain cancer center directors that have been incredibly effective clinical, I mean, clinical physician scientist or, you know, PhD scientist. And all of a sudden there's science. You now put them in an academic realm with lots of administrative duties of understanding. 00;13;21;28 - 00;13;44;15 Dr. Rob Winn How do you finesse things? How do you take care of conflicts? How do you actually deal with, you know, getting everything from learning how to negotiate, not just your salary or just your research, but to negotiate for the cancer center with the health system and with deans. You have people who we don't teach this stuff. And yet we expect them to be, ready on day one. 00;13;44;15 - 00;14;07;07 Dr. Rob Winn In fact, some cancer center directors are familiar with a CCSG but not knowledgeable of all things that are in CCSG. So, you know, you really have to understand how do you work with a team. And the funny part about why this program, happened in part is because I use my own self as an example. Right. You know, I wound up being a cancer center director both at UIC and then at VCU. 00;14;07;13 - 00;14;35;03 Dr. Rob Winn But I did one thing that's very different. I actually had three people that were very important in my life. Karen, was, was Michelle Le Beau? It was, George Weiner and Pat, you know, Pat, Loehrer you know, who was at Indiana. I called those three. I know they got tired of me, but I called them almost once a month. 00;14;35;06 - 00;14;55;16 Dr. Rob Winn And then I recognized that my transition to doing my job was becoming a little easier because I actually had a mentorship team. But not every cancer center director even has that, or even is knowledgeable that they should do that. So I think by having this ELACC program, it will not only give them leadership skills about having a network, how do you do it? 00;14;55;17 - 00;15;14;13 Dr. Rob Winn How do you run your finances? Not just how do you do your own science, but how do you now transition to figure out how to create science themes for an institution, ie a you a cancer center? And how to actually be familiar with the CCSG I think that it just makes more it just makes all the sense in the world. 00;15;14;16 - 00;15;16;20 Paul Goldberg Also dealing with NCI is not. 00;15;16;20 - 00;15;40;19 Dr. Rob Winn The oh my God, dealing with NCI and dealing with your state, dealing with philanthropy. These are things that, you know, they throw you in the deep end and either you swim or you don't. And then what happens is the people who can't swim in the deep end, we blame them as opposed to sort of saying, you know, had we probably had a program in which they had this training, they may have had a better opportunity of being successful. 00;15;40;22 - 00;15;46;17 Paul Goldberg And the people who enrolled they early in career or they kind of. Yeah. 00;15;46;24 - 00;16;12;26 Dr. Rob Winn That's the only restriction we had is that they, that at this point we were thinking that that for not only for capacity but that you have to draw the line somewhere. So at this point we've drawn the line that they needed to be early earlier stage investigators with the propensity of wanting to be and, and, develop into being program leaders at some point, you know, we may change that as a program, matures. 00;16;12;26 - 00;16;39;06 Dr. Rob Winn But at this point, we are really happy that we made that decision. By the way, each of these investigators, each of these trainees in this program. They also have to have a capstone. So I have now six folks who are doing special projects within the cancer center that actually directly benefit the cancer center, and it gives them their first taste of the administrative roles of doing things within the cancer center, in addition to their research or their development of clinical trials. 00;16;39;12 - 00;17;02;16 Dr. Rob Winn They are working with both mentors that are actually internal, and they have an external group, which I really like, of sponsors and mentors. And so there's a mix of external and internal people who are actually helping to guide them as individuals as well as their projects, and making sure that they continue to write papers, that they continue to get grants. 00;17;02;16 - 00;17;10;15 Dr. Rob Winn They continue to do all the things that are important for their promotion at their university and within their cancer center. So we've thought a lot about that. 00;17;10;17 - 00;17;28;02 Paul Goldberg Well, cancer centers as a culture are incredibly collaborative, but it doesn't happen at their lower levels, right? Faculty levels, because you have an EAB, for example, that's going to help you, you better listen to what they say. 00;17;28;08 - 00;17;29;25 Dr. Rob Winn You better listen to what they say. That's right. 00;17;29;26 - 00;18;07;28 Paul Goldberg Yeah. The AEB is really crucial. But so you you have consultants, I mean, the actual consultants that you pay as well. But that also is not the at a, at a, at a starting investigator, young investigator level either. You will never see those people. Right. So basically you you get that culture that actually exists at the later levels and and, and and get it going a little bit, get people acclimated to it a lot sooner. 00;18;08;00 - 00;18;10;04 Paul Goldberg That's. Yeah. Genius. 00;18;10;07 - 00;18;52;09 Dr. Rob Winn Yeah. I you know what? I think the fun part about this is that we always talk about how can we improve cancer centers. And so we always take the money and we make the money work because it ought to work in investments in clinical trials. It ought to be in funding the best science. But over the years, what I recognize is that if you have senior leadership that understand science, that understand clinical trials, but that really understand CCSG how to build teams, how to negotiate on behalf of cancer centers, how to understand which money to invest, how to prioritize, how to actually do something as simple as create a strategic plan. 00;18;52;09 - 00;19;14;08 Dr. Rob Winn And how do you get that with the team to help you create good strategic plan? Cancer center directors are incredibly busy, and so sometimes what happens is we, create this generation of managers as opposed to leaders, right, with the vision and understanding how to build teams, how to actually, support the teams that you build, how to advocate for them when necessary. 00;19;14;08 - 00;19;36;18 Dr. Rob Winn How do you actually go up to the NIH and NCI and be able to be able to be able to advocate, effectively? Those things aren't just inherently you're born with some people, maybe, but those are actual traits and skill sets that can be learned. And what I was struggling with is that in most cancer centers, many of our cancer center directors, it's not that they couldn't do that. 00;19;36;20 - 00;19;59;09 Dr. Rob Winn They just didn't have the exposure to that tongue in cheek. You caught me. Because actually, you know, when I read Joe Simone’s maxims a lot and, I have to say that in addition to Caryn, and in addition, to both Caryn Lerman and Karen Knudsen, it was in your in the work that you've done in the Cancer Letter to talk about leadership during that period of time. 00;19;59;12 - 00;20;27;01 Dr. Rob Winn In the context of who was leading cancer centers. It happened upon, true story, that I, you know, every once in a while I have my maxims out. I pulled them. And when you got to the point that leadership matters, I was like, you're right, leadership matters. And yet, when it comes to our program leaders, our associate directors are deputy directors and our directors, unlike a dean, which we now say that cancer centers in some cancer centers, they're at the level of deans. 00;20;27;09 - 00;20;47;18 Dr. Rob Winn Well, the AAMC has an actual leadership program to actually tell you. Here's what a dean is. This is the job. Here are the things that are going to be the struggles for you. Here are the things that should be simple for you. Here are the things you can look out for. And actually, we're still in the medieval ages where we're essentially passing this on as apprenticeship or some of us by actually forming a group around us. 00;20;47;18 - 00;21;16;03 Dr. Rob Winn And it seemed that that should become much more standard. So what I think the program has done successfully is that it is now it's not perfect, and it's still evolving, but the program is the first bite at really putting together rigor and some type of standardization, if you will, for lack of a better term, around what are the challenges and what are the what's what's the job of senior leadership within the cancer center? 00;21;16;04 - 00;21;46;15 Dr. Rob Winn What's the purpose? And the purpose isn't only although it's a get CCSG to get a better score, to get more papers, it's to get more clinical trials. Definitely. It's to do better science. It's to do better recruitment retention, definitely. But there are other things that are not absolutely within the CCSG guidelines that actually are also important for becoming an outstanding cancer center, so that we're ultimately having, at the end of the day, the largest impact on the science, on the greatest number of people, for the best possible outcome. 00;21;46;17 - 00;22;17;11 Dr. Rob Winn And so you can't do that with just having, in my mind, only good science with no type of framework of leadership. And I think that the time has come for us to treat cancer centers the same way. Deans and chairs are being treated across the country, and that is to develop a program in which we actually have our best and brightest people exposed to what it's like and what what is the purpose and how do you do your job of being a senior leader within a cancer center? 00;22;17;13 - 00;22;22;20 Dr. Rob Winn That's the part that I'm super excited about. And leadership does matter. Joe was right. 00;22;22;22 - 00;22;39;27 Paul Goldberg Joe was definitely right. He he he. But it's interesting that the era during which he wrote the maxims was not the era, when, cancer centers, most cancer centers were multibillion dollar health systems. 00;22;39;27 - 00;22;40;12 Dr. Rob Winn That's right. 00;22;40;12 - 00;22;45;12 Paul Goldberg That alone should justify several people holding a job. Right? 00;22;45;15 - 00;23;07;12 Dr. Rob Winn They're not alone. That's right, that's right. I think that alone, by the way, it has become much more complicated to be a cancer center director. And so to leave us with what they would have done in the 70s, 80s and 90s as the same basic goals without any additional training around the skill sets. The challenges, how do you circumvent those challenges? 00;23;07;18 - 00;23;24;25 Dr. Rob Winn How do you deal with those challenges? What are the new challenges? Come on. I mean, as the no foe and other things change within the NIH and the NCI, it'll be important to have a program in which not only are we keeping up, but we're passing on the fact that things do change. How do you deal with change right? 00;23;24;25 - 00;23;54;23 Dr. Rob Winn From a from a cancer centered senior leaders perspective? I think those those things are not something that should just happen to us. And then, you know, it's like having a baseball player. Yeah, he just has natural talent. It's just natural. We should stop relying on the natural talent and start understanding that many cancer center directors and deputies and ADs and program leaders would literally benefit from a program in which we were from day one, telling them the importance of CCSG and building up their CCSG knowledge. 00;23;54;23 - 00;24;26;05 Dr. Rob Winn More so than many of us have had, and paying attention to the soft and and what I would say, the hard skills of being a leader. Most leadership programs just teach you leadership programs, but they're not CCSG specific. They're not specific to cancer centers, and they think that most of what they teach you is translatable. And you know much of what people do in their leadership, in these various leadership efforts that people go to, you know, they go to places, they play people to put them in workshops, to learn how to be leaders, how to manage conflict. 00;24;26;09 - 00;24;47;00 Dr. Rob Winn Yeah, yeah, yeah, that stuff's important. But that stuff doesn't always completely translate into sort of saying, that's great, but if you don't know how that applies within a CCSG program, well, what are the requirements really, other than you've written your section as a program leader, and now suddenly you become the aide or you become the deputy director. It doesn't help. 00;24;47;07 - 00;25;06;08 Dr. Rob Winn I actually think we need to get rid of that mindset and start learning that these are teachable skills and in fact, we’ll be we'll be able to teach better and produce better leaders much better than I am, and much more knowledgeable than I am in the future. If we start paying attention to leadership now. 00;25;06;10 - 00;25;31;14 Paul Goldberg I'll accept that maybe much more, knowledgeable than you were when you started this. Right now, you obviously are seeing the flaws in the entire system, and they're figuring out a way to fix the entire system. So I would respectfully disagree with this, with the self-criticism, with self where they're flagellation. But. 00;25;31;16 - 00;25;52;24 Dr. Rob Winn But we. But to your point though, Paul, I've now gone from thinking that this would only be good just for VCU to. It would be now great for VCU. And Hollings as a group to be able to, have more people at the table with us so that we can expand this program and hopefully even have it as a national program. 00;25;52;27 - 00;26;11;05 Dr. Rob Winn It's a touchstone, like the ELAM program, where to be cancer center directors or ADs or program leaders. You go through a program in which you have training on how to be a leader, and then it becomes, you know, you get picked as a program leader and you come to this program or, you know, something like that, you know, but we're working out the details. 00;26;11;05 - 00;26;34;01 Dr. Rob Winn But I will tell you that I this first pancake, this first cohort, they're, tremendously amazing. And at some point in the future, I hope you'll be able to cover the people who helped create the curriculum, like Anita Harrison and others. But I also, really, hoping that, you know, at some point that, you know, Ray DuBois and, and some of the participants in the program, you'll have an opportunity to sort of see exactly what I'm talking about. 00;26;34;03 - 00;26;46;29 Dr. Rob Winn They went in a certain way. They've coming out much more knowledgeable, much more confident, I think, than I was when I started the whole process of, being a cancer center senior leader. 00;26;47;01 - 00;27;07;13 Paul Goldberg Well, you were, you were humble, but you were, you were really confident. You did, you did the things that needed to be done. But I say that as a friend because I was, I was we were having dinners at, at at their Polish restaurants in Chicago, so, Oh, it's just, let's just, let's just be truthful. 00;27;07;13 - 00;27;13;15 Dr. Rob Winn Okay? So. That's true. 00;27;13;17 - 00;27;24;01 Paul Goldberg The restaurant is called Stara Polska, and they're not one of our sponsors. But if they want to be, you've got my phone number. 00;27;24;04 - 00;27;26;08 Dr. Rob Winn 00;27;26;10 - 00;27;56;00 Dr. Rob Winn It's true, though, but, you know, I will say the importance of sponsorship and mentorship. I think that I look smarter than I am because, you know, I did have people like Michele LeBeau, people like George Weiner, Pat Lauer, and, and and, you know, yeah, I mean, and Leon Leon, who's over at Northwestern spontaneous. I mean, I've had many of these guys and and, you know, Jennifer Ping, I had no fear of reaching out and getting information. 00;27;56;00 - 00;28;14;26 Dr. Rob Winn And I think that any success that I've had, I also have to give credit to those folks and people like Otis Brawley, who I really, saw as, being part of my team, of being able to, help me guide the cancer center. So, you know, again, I want to make sure that I give credit where credit is due. 00;28;14;28 - 00;28;41;04 Paul Goldberg But this is also a field that is so collaborative to a fault, almost, you know, even people, because you were you were you've just listed most of the of all of, all of the competing institutions. University of Illinois in Chicago. Right. As as your friends and advisors. So that just gives you an idea of, of how this is not Coke versus Pepsi. 00;28;41;04 - 00;28;42;12 Dr. Rob Winn Kind of. It's true. 00;28;42;14 - 00;28;44;05 Paul Goldberg It's absolutely true. 00;28;44;07 - 00;28;45;13 Dr. Rob Winn It's the opposite. 00;28;45;15 - 00;28;58;01 Paul Goldberg It's the opposite. It's the enemy is cancer and not the cancer center down the street. So yeah. Is there anything we forgot to cover? Anything I forgot to ask. 00;28;58;04 - 00;29;19;29 Dr. Rob Winn You know, the only thing I would, add is that I. I do think that, our young people have been calling for this for quite a long time. Sometimes when we get program leaders or people that we promote the program leaders, they'll say, oh, I wish I knew some of this stuff. And the reality is, why do we keep talking about I wish when we as something that we can do about it. 00;29;19;29 - 00;29;34;27 Dr. Rob Winn So hopefully, you know, there'll be others who will want to join the cause of saying that leadership matters and that we're not just going to admire the problem, but we're going to try to do something about it. And we may not be perfect in the beginning, but we'll continue to try to perfect it over time. 00;29;35;00 - 00;29;48;04 Paul Goldberg Well, there has to be a way to make it national. You are working on the curriculum. So that's, and I think you could probably take on once the curriculum is done, you would think you could take on thousands of, 00;29;48;04 - 00;29;48;29 Dr. Rob Winn Absolutely. 00;29;48;29 - 00;29;56;17 Dr. Rob Winn And and in fact, we we we can and we're looking forward to being able to expand the program for sure. 00;29;56;20 - 00;29;59;07 Paul Goldberg And the cost is there's no cost. 00;29;59;12 - 00;30;00;11 Dr. Rob Winn Really at this point. 00;30;00;11 - 00;30;08;00 Dr. Rob Winn There's no cost other than the 10% that you have to cover for the people who are chosen from your institution to participate in the program. 00;30;08;02 - 00;30;12;11 Paul Goldberg Which is only fair. So. Well, thank you so much. 00;30;12;14 - 00;30;34;00 Dr. Rob Winn Well, thank you. And as always, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. And, and, thank you for your interest in leadership, as we've talked about over the years and, and how leaders do matter. And but I think that the training of leaders matters as much. And you can get really amazing leaders for the future by training them today and helping them to be better.