00:00:00:15 - 00:00:01:01 I'm Dr. 00:00:01:01 - 00:00:04:02 Rob Winn and you're listening to Real Cancer Talk 00:00:04:02 - 00:00:07:02 from VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. 00:00:07:12 - 00:00:10:15 So welcome, everyone to our third 00:00:10:15 - 00:00:14:06 Friday, July edition of Facts and Faith Friday. 00:00:14:14 - 00:00:17:21 We have some wonderful conversations 00:00:18:05 - 00:00:21:00 lined up today all about care. 00:00:21:00 - 00:00:25:14 So care for folks who might be in the patient role as well as care 00:00:25:14 - 00:00:26:23 for caregivers. 00:00:26:23 - 00:00:30:06 And we have some fantastic presenters and panelists 00:00:30:14 - 00:00:33:22 who are really going to share their expertise with all of us. 00:00:34:05 - 00:00:35:24 So we're so excited to have you. 00:00:35:24 - 00:00:41:01 We know you are sitting on the edge of your seat waiting for this conversation. 00:00:41:10 - 00:00:45:08 And so we want to make sure we, use our time well, 00:00:45:08 - 00:00:47:18 and we want to go ahead and get started. 00:00:47:18 - 00:00:51:08 So I now have the pleasure of 00:00:51:18 - 00:00:55:10 introducing Doctor Marilyn Barnes. 00:00:56:00 - 00:01:00:14 If I were going to read Doctor Barnes's whole bio, 00:01:00:23 - 00:01:03:21 we would have to lengthen the call a little bit 00:01:03:21 - 00:01:09:20 because she is quite accomplished as a scholar, as a practitioner. 00:01:10:24 - 00:01:13:18 And so I'm just going to share some highlights. 00:01:13:18 - 00:01:16:22 But know, this is kind of the tip of the iceberg 00:01:17:03 - 00:01:20:21 in terms of the expertise and experience the Doctor Barnes is bringing 00:01:20:21 - 00:01:22:01 to this conversation. 00:01:22:01 - 00:01:27:22 Okay, so Doctor Maryland, JD Barnes is a nationally recognized leader 00:01:27:22 - 00:01:32:11 in spiritual care health equity and chaplaincy education. 00:01:32:20 - 00:01:37:13 She is the Reverend Robert B Lance Chair and Associate Professor in the Department 00:01:37:13 - 00:01:41:24 of Patient Counseling in the College of Health Professions here at VCU. 00:01:42:06 - 00:01:47:13 She is the first woman and person of color to hold this position. 00:01:48:08 - 00:01:52:22 In addition to her academic accolades, Doctor Barnes is an ordained 00:01:52:22 - 00:01:56:04 itinerant elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, 00:01:56:16 - 00:02:01:18 holds multiple advanced degrees, has previously served as a vice president 00:02:01:18 - 00:02:04:24 of Mission and Spiritual Care for Advocate Aurora Health. 00:02:05:12 - 00:02:10:02 She's a scholar whose research focuses on the protective role of spiritual 00:02:10:02 - 00:02:11:05 and religious coping 00:02:11:05 - 00:02:15:02 among African American women, the well-being of health care staff, 00:02:15:15 - 00:02:20:14 and the integration of spiritual care simulation in chaplaincy education. 00:02:20:22 - 00:02:24:20 Her published work, including a seminal taxonomy of chaplaincy 00:02:24:20 - 00:02:29:10 interventions, and SC Palliative Care, is widely used in clinical 00:02:29:10 - 00:02:34:03 and academic settings across the country and internationally. 00:02:34:21 - 00:02:38:02 So as I said, that's just the cliff notes version. 00:02:38:11 - 00:02:43:24 We are so excited to have Doctor Barnes come and talk to us 00:02:44:09 - 00:02:48:01 about the Spiritual Care Companion program 00:02:48:08 - 00:02:53:01 that is currently being offered through the Patient Counseling department at VCU. 00:02:53:09 - 00:02:55:13 And so Doctor Barnes will have you take it away. 00:02:56:18 - 00:02:59:06 Thank you, Doctor Brown, I appreciate it. 00:02:59:06 - 00:03:02:05 I'm not quite a doctor yet. Just Marilyn. 00:03:02:05 - 00:03:04:02 I'll get there, I think. 00:03:04:02 - 00:03:05:22 Greetings, everyone. 00:03:05:22 - 00:03:08:24 And, thank you again for Facts & Faith Friday. 00:03:08:24 - 00:03:11:03 The invitation to present. 00:03:11:03 - 00:03:16:00 I am generally here as a participant, and I enjoy that as well. 00:03:16:11 - 00:03:19:13 So I'm going to share about the Spiritual Care Companion 00:03:19:13 - 00:03:23:04 program, here at, VCU. 00:03:23:13 - 00:03:26:22 And through the, Department of Patient Counseling. 00:03:27:03 - 00:03:31:23 And so just to level set, we have gone with the definition 00:03:31:23 - 00:03:36:06 of spiritual care that includes the feelings and beliefs present 00:03:36:06 - 00:03:41:00 in all human beings to find and construct meaning about life, 00:03:41:08 - 00:03:46:10 sense of self and existence, and to move toward personal growth, peace, 00:03:46:16 - 00:03:50:16 responsibility and connectedness with others and nature. 00:03:50:20 - 00:03:53:23 So that's the definition that we are going, 00:03:53:23 - 00:03:57:05 with when we talk about the Spiritual Care Companion program. 00:03:57:12 - 00:04:01:22 So our program has, been offered twice and has been offered 00:04:01:22 - 00:04:06:15 in a virtual setting for six weeks, for an hour every evening. 00:04:06:24 - 00:04:09:24 And, once a week on Tuesday evenings. 00:04:10:04 - 00:04:13:13 We have gotten very positive feedback and the feedback that 00:04:13:19 - 00:04:17:12 we have consistently gotten is that we'd like to have this 00:04:17:12 - 00:04:21:17 in a communal setting where we could say, come together 00:04:21:17 - 00:04:24:24 for a day or a day and a half and actually 00:04:24:24 - 00:04:30:03 be in community and have the education where folks who are leading 00:04:30:03 - 00:04:34:08 are working in social service organizations to test as have equity, 00:04:34:08 - 00:04:38:21 health care related fields and faith communities can come together, 00:04:39:03 - 00:04:41:24 receive information 00:04:41:24 - 00:04:44:24 in the six topics or areas that we cover 00:04:45:08 - 00:04:48:04 and then obtain skills 00:04:48:04 - 00:04:52:08 about integrating spiritual care into their practice or workplace, 00:04:52:14 - 00:04:55:21 understanding the various approaches to spiritual care. 00:04:56:05 - 00:05:01:03 Gaining resources, about looking at spiritual distress 00:05:01:03 - 00:05:07:08 and not necessarily religious distress, and then develop skills on offering 00:05:07:14 - 00:05:12:23 from a high level spiritual care because as doctor Brown said, 00:05:13:02 - 00:05:17:17 as a board certified chaplain, we go through a very rigorous process 00:05:17:24 - 00:05:21:11 to obtain our board certification and the skill set 00:05:21:11 - 00:05:24:15 that we have when it comes to spiritual care. 00:05:27:10 - 00:05:28:15 So here the the 00:05:28:15 - 00:05:32:23 topics that are covered, this being a spiritual care 00:05:32:23 - 00:05:36:12 companion is really focused on knowing self. 00:05:36:17 - 00:05:39:17 Our emotions and connections, beliefs 00:05:39:21 - 00:05:44:10 and intentions because it is, about the person 00:05:44:10 - 00:05:48:20 that we are reaching out to and connecting to and not about us. 00:05:48:20 - 00:05:52:20 So we need to be in tune to what's going on with us before 00:05:52:20 - 00:05:57:14 we potentially could project what we're feeling on to someone else. 00:05:58:04 - 00:06:01:04 And then next we look at the art of listening. 00:06:01:07 - 00:06:06:00 I always say we need to listen, to hear and not to respond. 00:06:06:08 - 00:06:07:12 So if we think about it 00:06:07:12 - 00:06:10:12 when we're listening, we're thinking, okay, now when am I going to say to that? 00:06:10:13 - 00:06:11:12 Well, what do they think about? 00:06:11:12 - 00:06:16:00 So how do we listen to hear and not to respond? 00:06:16:20 - 00:06:20:21 Then we move to spiritual care screening and interventions. 00:06:21:01 - 00:06:23:10 So screening for distress. 00:06:23:10 - 00:06:27:20 What...does the person have a faith community? 00:06:27:24 - 00:06:29:10 What's important to them? 00:06:29:10 - 00:06:31:11 What's their value system? 00:06:31:11 - 00:06:35:16 And are they, having a disconnect in what they believe 00:06:35:16 - 00:06:39:02 and what they're connected to and what is actually occurring 00:06:39:07 - 00:06:42:22 in their particular their life at that that time? 00:06:43:23 - 00:06:44:19 And then next 00:06:44:19 - 00:06:48:08 we go into spiritual care in crisis, 00:06:48:13 - 00:06:52:15 which Reverend Doctor Tiffany Redman, who is one of the panelists today, 00:06:52:15 - 00:06:56:11 she actually facilitates this component of our, 00:06:56:11 - 00:06:59:02 spiritual care companion, program. 00:06:59:02 - 00:07:02:04 And it's really thinking about in times of crisis, 00:07:02:07 - 00:07:05:07 knowing that each person, 00:07:05:09 - 00:07:09:00 has a different level of what a crisis means. 00:07:09:06 - 00:07:14:15 And so, again, it's drawing upon the art of listening and knowing self. 00:07:14:17 - 00:07:17:17 So that as you are journeying with someone, 00:07:17:19 - 00:07:19:19 you are attuned to what's going on with you. 00:07:19:19 - 00:07:23:11 So their crisis doesn't become your crisis, and your crisis 00:07:23:17 - 00:07:26:05 isn't projected onto them. 00:07:26:05 - 00:07:29:08 And then we follow up with the next component, 00:07:29:19 - 00:07:32:19 which is about grief and bereavement, 00:07:33:01 - 00:07:35:20 and knowing that those two are different. 00:07:35:20 - 00:07:40:17 So grief is the emotional response 00:07:40:17 - 00:07:45:00 to loss, while bereavement is a period of sadness 00:07:45:00 - 00:07:49:10 felt after a loss and then generally the loss of a loved one. 00:07:49:23 - 00:07:52:10 And so if we think about grief, 00:07:52:10 - 00:07:57:12 grief can be a friendship is ended, losing your community, 00:07:57:12 - 00:08:03:03 missing a certain person that you once had, questioning or judgment, 00:08:03:12 - 00:08:07:02 the releasing of who you were. 00:08:07:02 - 00:08:09:09 I'm diagnosed with with cancer. 00:08:09:09 - 00:08:13:23 So now I am grieving because I'm concerned about the future. 00:08:14:08 - 00:08:15:18 Maybe I should have done this. 00:08:15:18 - 00:08:19:03 I'm grieving, the loss of something. 00:08:19:17 - 00:08:24:04 And then also the the losing of traditions. 00:08:24:04 - 00:08:26:19 We saw a lot of this during Covid, remember? 00:08:26:19 - 00:08:28:14 We couldn't visit loved ones. 00:08:28:14 - 00:08:33:02 We couldn't come together for funerals, for family reunions, for dinner. 00:08:33:05 - 00:08:37:18 Those types of things that had a lot of grief associated with it. 00:08:38:20 - 00:08:39:08 And then we 00:08:39:08 - 00:08:42:08 follow up with spiritual care with children and youth. 00:08:42:10 - 00:08:44:13 This is a different population. 00:08:44:13 - 00:08:48:09 And the PEW Research is telling us that this population 00:08:48:16 - 00:08:51:03 is more spiritual than religious. 00:08:51:03 - 00:08:54:01 And so it is important and their experiences 00:08:54:01 - 00:08:58:03 are so differently different due to societal norms. 00:08:58:03 - 00:09:03:07 And so really understanding how to care for, children and youth. 00:09:03:15 - 00:09:07:23 So those are the six areas that are covered and how we deliver 00:09:07:23 - 00:09:12:00 the program is lecture by a professional chaplain presenter. 00:09:12:06 - 00:09:15:00 Then we follow up with videos 00:09:15:00 - 00:09:18:12 that are, and not each session has videos, 00:09:18:12 - 00:09:21:17 but we have videos that present the tools that we've shared. 00:09:21:24 - 00:09:26:13 And, I'm Reverend Rachel and Doctor Sutton, and I have talked 00:09:26:13 - 00:09:30:09 about having specific vignettes that focus on cancer 00:09:30:24 - 00:09:35:10 and how in our faith communities and our social organizations, 00:09:35:14 - 00:09:38:19 we can provide tools for us 00:09:38:19 - 00:09:41:19 to use and to support one another. 00:09:42:06 - 00:09:44:07 I think I'm coming on a home, Reverend Rachel. 00:09:44:07 - 00:09:44:23 All right. 00:09:44:23 - 00:09:47:22 And then we look at the content, right? 00:09:47:22 - 00:09:53:00 So we focus on not, just individuals yet their loved ones in the community, 00:09:53:03 - 00:09:55:07 their faith and social communities, 00:09:55:07 - 00:09:59:02 because we are created to be in community with one another. 00:09:59:10 - 00:10:03:14 Look at diagnosis, treatments, survivorship. 00:10:03:14 - 00:10:06:07 It is a journey. It's not a destination. 00:10:06:07 - 00:10:09:24 Your diagnosis doesn't stop there a treatment, it doesn't stop there. 00:10:09:24 - 00:10:11:13 And survivorship 00:10:11:13 - 00:10:15:15 because we ring the bell does not mean that our journey has stopped. 00:10:15:20 - 00:10:20:20 And so acknowledging that and being able to journey with folks in that. 00:10:22:11 - 00:10:25:12 And then that concludes I did very well. 00:10:25:12 - 00:10:30:00 That concludes the concludes my presentation. 00:10:30:00 - 00:10:33:09 I will say that, Doctor Sutton and Reverend Rachel and I 00:10:33:15 - 00:10:37:11 have talked about, how to share this information, 00:10:37:11 - 00:10:42:02 how to create spaces that, we can come together, present 00:10:42:02 - 00:10:45:03 this information, and will as, 00:10:45:03 - 00:10:48:08 get it achieved, on a budget as well. 00:10:48:16 - 00:10:52:04 And so if you have any questions, you can place them in the chat 00:10:52:04 - 00:10:55:04 or at the end we'll have Q&A time. 00:10:55:10 - 00:10:58:10 Thank you. 00:10:58:23 - 00:11:00:18 Thank you so much, Reverend Barnes. 00:11:00:18 - 00:11:04:00 Folks might be putting some questions in the chat. 00:11:04:13 - 00:11:08:19 I'm curious, from your perspective, who would you say 00:11:08:19 - 00:11:13:07 is like the ideal candidate for this kind of program? 00:11:13:07 - 00:11:16:11 So we have lots of pastors and religious leaders on the call. 00:11:16:18 - 00:11:18:08 If they're trying to decide 00:11:18:08 - 00:11:21:07 who are the people in my congregation that I'd like to send 00:11:21:07 - 00:11:25:16 and get this kind of information, who would you say those people would be? 00:11:26:23 - 00:11:29:15 So I'm going to talk out of both faith traditions. 00:11:29:15 - 00:11:32:15 I grew up, and so if you're Baptist, that would be the deacons. 00:11:32:22 - 00:11:36:09 And if your method is that be the stewards. 00:11:36:18 - 00:11:41:10 And also if if you're United Methodist, it could be those in the State Ministry. 00:11:41:13 - 00:11:43:09 And then also for pastors. Right. 00:11:43:09 - 00:11:48:12 Because there is the, religious care that pastors provide 00:11:48:15 - 00:11:51:04 and then their spiritual care or pastoral care. 00:11:51:04 - 00:11:55:14 And so this is additional skills, if you will, to help integrate 00:11:55:14 - 00:11:58:14 into your practice of caring for people 00:11:58:20 - 00:12:01:20 as also caring for yourself. 00:12:03:03 - 00:12:05:11 And then I would also say those 00:12:05:11 - 00:12:10:02 because I'm still new to Richmond and learning, like Caritas members 00:12:10:02 - 00:12:16:02 who work at Caritas or the Girls and Boys Club or the YMCA that are offering 00:12:16:02 - 00:12:20:10 care, and people are coming, to these places in distress 00:12:21:01 - 00:12:25:02 or under some type of stress with anxiety, and to take that 00:12:25:02 - 00:12:29:04 holistic approach of body, mind and spirit of caring for people. 00:12:30:17 - 00:12:31:17 So is the it 00:12:31:17 - 00:12:35:13 sounds like the way you're describing that the program is oriented toward 00:12:35:23 - 00:12:39:24 maybe providing skills around more long term caregiving, 00:12:40:10 - 00:12:44:12 but also maybe one time encounters with people. 00:12:44:12 - 00:12:45:12 Is that true? 00:12:45:12 - 00:12:51:03 Yes, it's a both and if and I, I will say that the skills are transferable. 00:12:51:03 - 00:12:51:10 Right. 00:12:51:10 - 00:12:54:15 So if I encounter you Jessica one time, 00:12:54:21 - 00:12:57:21 then and I see that you're in distress, 00:12:57:21 - 00:13:02:19 I might sit with you and I am offering care to you. 00:13:03:15 - 00:13:07:20 Yet if I see you multiple times, I might sit with you the first time. 00:13:08:01 - 00:13:12:12 And then as we establish a relationship, then the care would change. 00:13:12:22 - 00:13:15:12 And I will also say that 00:13:15:12 - 00:13:19:03 it is not about being a chaplain to someone. 00:13:19:08 - 00:13:24:09 It is about being present and journeying with them and then being able to refer. 00:13:24:09 - 00:13:28:18 So, I was talking to clergy person today 00:13:28:24 - 00:13:32:22 about in my line of work and with what Tiffany as well. 00:13:33:06 - 00:13:36:00 We are not counselors, right. 00:13:36:00 - 00:13:38:17 We are spiritual care providers. 00:13:38:17 - 00:13:43:14 And once we get to a certain point, I will refer to Jessica. 00:13:43:14 - 00:13:47:16 I will refer to because now we've got above my license. 00:13:48:13 - 00:13:51:20 And so it's really understanding each of us has a license 00:13:51:20 - 00:13:53:12 that we practice to. 00:13:53:12 - 00:13:58:02 And how can we be in community with one another and care for one another 00:13:58:02 - 00:13:58:18 the same time? 00:14:00:03 - 00:14:03:03 Okay, so that brings me to another question. 00:14:03:11 - 00:14:06:08 Is a piece of this, I'm speaking 00:14:06:08 - 00:14:09:21 from the experience of being a psychologist to go to a church. 00:14:09:21 - 00:14:12:04 Right. So often 00:14:12:04 - 00:14:14:03 the leaders of my church know they can call me like, 00:14:14:03 - 00:14:16:13 hey, what do I do about the situation? Right? 00:14:16:13 - 00:14:21:09 And I think one of the things that often comes up when providing care is 00:14:21:14 - 00:14:24:09 this question that you just mentioned of 00:14:24:09 - 00:14:28:09 how do I decide when this is too much for me to handle 00:14:28:17 - 00:14:32:08 and kind of where my line is and so I'm wondering 00:14:32:09 - 00:14:36:10 if that's a part of this training too, to help 00:14:36:10 - 00:14:41:03 people really decide and discern when they might need 00:14:41:03 - 00:14:44:10 to send people to other resources as a part of that care process. 00:14:44:22 - 00:14:50:09 Yes, that is in the first, second and third module. 00:14:50:09 - 00:14:53:19 So spiritual care companion, knowing yourself 00:14:54:12 - 00:14:59:18 the art of listening and connection and then screening and interventions. 00:14:59:23 - 00:15:00:09 Right. 00:15:00:09 - 00:15:04:24 So here, here the tools in my toolbox I have no more tools. 00:15:05:04 - 00:15:06:16 And I'm not going to create a tool. 00:15:07:22 - 00:15:08:10 Right. 00:15:08:10 - 00:15:12:17 And so it's really talking through that and and 00:15:13:17 - 00:15:16:12 being okay with not having the tool. 00:15:16:12 - 00:15:19:08 So I am a ordained clergy. 00:15:19:08 - 00:15:23:03 So I get about people come to you and they're like, okay, now fix it 00:15:23:03 - 00:15:24:09 or help me or. 00:15:24:09 - 00:15:27:09 And I will say, I don't have that tool. 00:15:27:23 - 00:15:31:01 So let me find someone who has that tool. 00:15:31:19 - 00:15:35:22 Yet parishioners are looking to pastors to have the tool. 00:15:35:22 - 00:15:39:02 And when you don't have the tool, they don't understand why you don't. 00:15:39:15 - 00:15:43:15 And we can't take that on as a negative thing. 00:15:43:17 - 00:15:47:14 For me, we have to be courageous to say, 00:15:47:14 - 00:15:51:20 I don't have that tool, but I know someone who does. 00:15:52:09 - 00:15:55:01 So final question for now, 00:15:55:01 - 00:15:58:21 what's the cost of the program and how can people find out next steps? 00:15:59:15 - 00:16:00:18 Excellent question. 00:16:00:18 - 00:16:04:17 On the last slide, I have provided both of my email addresses, 00:16:05:10 - 00:16:08:11 and Doctor Sutton and Reverend Rachel and I 00:16:08:11 - 00:16:12:14 are working on a way for it to be a minimal cost. 00:16:12:14 - 00:16:14:00 And we don't have a number yet, 00:16:15:02 - 00:16:17:07 but it's forthcoming. 00:16:17:07 - 00:16:20:05 Okay, so people of faith know what that means. 00:16:20:05 - 00:16:23:05 Yeah, I'll pray that number down. 00:16:25:17 - 00:16:26:17 Amen. 00:16:26:17 - 00:16:29:14 The Lord is making a way for the number to be low. 00:16:29:14 - 00:16:30:17 We gotta pray. 00:16:30:17 - 00:16:33:21 Pray that number down and pray those grant dollars up. 00:16:34:08 - 00:16:36:18 There you go. 00:16:36:18 - 00:16:38:17 Well, thank you so much, Reverend Barnes. 00:16:38:17 - 00:16:42:00 This sounds like an amazing, amazing opportunity. 00:16:42:00 - 00:16:45:24 And we're definitely hopeful that folks in our community 00:16:46:07 - 00:16:48:21 will take advantage of this excellent resource 00:16:48:21 - 00:16:51:21 as we continue to care for our congregations and communities. 00:16:51:21 - 00:16:53:15 So thank you so, so much. 00:16:53:15 - 00:16:56:04 Absolutely. Thank you. 00:16:56:04 - 00:16:57:02 All right. 00:16:57:02 - 00:17:01:23 So in the in the vein of continuing to talk about care, 00:17:02:10 - 00:17:05:12 we're going to shift to a panel conversation 00:17:06:14 - 00:17:09:20 to talk about care not just for folks 00:17:09:20 - 00:17:12:22 who might be in a patient role or folks 00:17:12:22 - 00:17:15:22 who are naming some distress. 00:17:15:22 - 00:17:19:08 But to care for folks who are caregivers. 00:17:19:20 - 00:17:23:19 We know that in our congregations, we have many people 00:17:24:02 - 00:17:29:13 who are caring for spouses, caring for parents, caring for children, right? 00:17:29:23 - 00:17:34:13 And often those are the folks who maybe 00:17:34:13 - 00:17:38:12 aren't skilled or have a lot of experience in asking for help. 00:17:38:19 - 00:17:42:05 Or we might not even see them that often in the church building 00:17:42:05 - 00:17:44:17 because they're engaged in their care activities. 00:17:44:17 - 00:17:49:02 And so we wanted to spend some time really talking about how can we care 00:17:49:02 - 00:17:52:22 best for those folks who are offering care to their loved ones. 00:17:53:04 - 00:17:59:15 We have two wonderful panelists who are coming to share with us their expertise. 00:17:59:22 - 00:18:02:22 The first is Danielle Boose McDowell. 00:18:03:02 - 00:18:07:11 Danielle is a licensed professional counselor and Virginia Board of Counseling 00:18:07:11 - 00:18:10:22 approved supervisor, serving individuals 00:18:10:22 - 00:18:13:22 and couples in Virginia and Florida. 00:18:13:23 - 00:18:19:05 She specializes in trauma informed, culturally responsive, identity 00:18:19:05 - 00:18:22:11 centered therapy, especially for those 00:18:22:11 - 00:18:25:11 carrying the weight of multiple worlds. 00:18:25:13 - 00:18:27:16 I know that sounds familiar to some of us right? 00:18:28:17 - 00:18:30:17 Reverend Doctor Tiffany N. 00:18:30:17 - 00:18:35:02 Redmond serves as a chaplain educator, and hospital 00:18:35:02 - 00:18:38:13 chaplain at VCU and VCU Health. 00:18:38:22 - 00:18:42:03 An ordained pastor in the United Methodist Church, 00:18:42:10 - 00:18:43:13 Doctor Redmond brings 00:18:43:13 - 00:18:48:02 a rich background in ministry, education, and military service 00:18:48:09 - 00:18:51:13 with academic credentials that include a Doctorate of Ministry, 00:18:51:18 - 00:18:54:18 Master of Business Administration, Master of Divinity, 00:18:55:08 - 00:18:57:22 and a BS in Computer Information Systems. 00:18:57:22 - 00:19:01:14 At this time, we'd like to welcome our two panelists. 00:19:02:00 - 00:19:05:03 Thank you all so much for joining us. 00:19:05:13 - 00:19:09:02 As just as a reminder to folks who are on the call, 00:19:09:08 - 00:19:12:14 you are welcome to submit questions in the chat at any time. 00:19:12:14 - 00:19:15:08 And we'll have the panelists respond to those. 00:19:15:08 - 00:19:17:12 I'll just have some questions to get us started. 00:19:17:12 - 00:19:18:13 Okay. 00:19:18:13 - 00:19:23:02 So first I want to just throw this question out to both of you 00:19:23:15 - 00:19:28:15 in your areas of expertise, in your work with caregivers in particular, 00:19:28:23 - 00:19:34:03 what would you say are some of the primary issues that sort of rise to the surface 00:19:34:07 - 00:19:38:12 as being the most challenging for folks in that caregiver role to manage? 00:19:41:24 - 00:19:42:20 I can go. 00:19:42:20 - 00:19:46:06 So usually when clients come, there is a sense 00:19:46:06 - 00:19:49:06 of overwhelm, hopelessness. 00:19:49:10 - 00:19:53:18 And their struggling with feelings of agitation, 00:19:54:00 - 00:19:57:18 having difficulty, being able to 00:19:58:24 - 00:20:00:19 name what they need 00:20:00:19 - 00:20:05:01 and even feel a level of shame and guilt to even have a need 00:20:05:07 - 00:20:08:06 because there is someone that's needing their care. 00:20:08:06 - 00:20:12:01 And so when they come into session to start off with, 00:20:12:02 - 00:20:15:05 we are spending a lot of time helping to, 00:20:15:05 - 00:20:18:05 normalize those conflicting feelings 00:20:18:14 - 00:20:21:20 and then also, like, center their needs 00:20:22:02 - 00:20:27:06 because they're not prioritizing them for considering care for other people. 00:20:27:06 - 00:20:33:03 And so my focus is always to kind of move them back to considering themselves 00:20:33:11 - 00:20:38:05 and helping them to process those complex feelings that come along with caregiving. 00:20:40:17 - 00:20:43:08 Yeah, I definitely agree with, all of those. 00:20:43:08 - 00:20:47:03 One of the things I always, say it is the forgotten person. 00:20:47:24 - 00:20:50:18 Everyone is just so focused on the patient 00:20:50:18 - 00:20:53:18 and and all the emotions and rightfully so. 00:20:53:23 - 00:20:57:14 And the problem is the person that's walking alongside of them 00:20:57:14 - 00:21:01:17 not only is dealing with those emotions, but have some there themselves. 00:21:02:08 - 00:21:05:08 Especially in our religious institutions. 00:21:05:11 - 00:21:08:15 You know, it is always what can we do, what we can, what can we do? 00:21:08:15 - 00:21:11:20 And it's always focused on the person with the ailment. 00:21:11:20 - 00:21:16:12 And so that is the biggest challenge that I see. 00:21:16:16 - 00:21:18:21 And then the other part of that is isolation. 00:21:18:21 - 00:21:24:09 And so as other people are giving the attention to the patient, 00:21:24:20 - 00:21:29:18 they just get they just feel so pushed away and just isolated. 00:21:29:18 - 00:21:32:08 And so that is, one of the biggest challenges 00:21:32:08 - 00:21:36:05 that I've heard from caregivers when it comes to like, their churches or 00:21:36:08 - 00:21:40:03 their places of worship is that no one remembers me. 00:21:43:11 - 00:21:43:20 Yeah. 00:21:43:20 - 00:21:48:13 I'm thinking about, I'm by no means, a specialist in caregiver support, 00:21:48:13 - 00:21:51:13 but I'm thinking about folks I have had in my clinical practice 00:21:51:19 - 00:21:54:19 who've been in that role, and it almost feels like, 00:21:55:01 - 00:21:55:24 well I don't really have 00:21:55:24 - 00:21:59:18 a right to ask for anything because this person is dealing with this 00:21:59:18 - 00:22:04:11 big medical issue or whatever the case may be, and kind of the space 00:22:04:11 - 00:22:07:24 that their needs take up kind of can shrink. 00:22:08:18 - 00:22:09:23 Exactly. 00:22:09:23 - 00:22:12:23 So, Doctor Redman, you mentioned, 00:22:13:15 - 00:22:15:20 you know, a lot of people's energy 00:22:15:20 - 00:22:18:24 and attention is focused on the patient. 00:22:19:10 - 00:22:22:24 If we're thinking about what it means to really care for caregivers, 00:22:23:11 - 00:22:26:20 what are some intentional actions that church community. 00:22:26:20 - 00:22:30:17 Entities can take to really maybe shift that attention a bit 00:22:30:17 - 00:22:32:12 and think about caregiver needs as well? 00:22:33:14 - 00:22:34:10 I mean. 00:22:34:10 - 00:22:39:17 I hate to say it this way, but the, my church, the way they did it was 00:22:40:18 - 00:22:43:23 it wasn't just a patient, it was the family. 00:22:44:03 - 00:22:44:11 Right? 00:22:44:11 - 00:22:48:09 Because if it's not, if it's just a spouse or if it is the children, 00:22:48:14 - 00:22:52:24 like when you think about what is going on, it is the family. 00:22:53:04 - 00:22:53:12 Right? 00:22:53:12 - 00:22:57:20 And to change that narrative is to say everyone is involved 00:22:57:20 - 00:23:01:22 and everyone is having the feelings and everyone is feeling some kind of way. 00:23:01:22 - 00:23:05:18 And so how can we make sure that we pay attention to all of those? 00:23:06:00 - 00:23:10:03 Another thing kind of going into some of the other questions 00:23:10:03 - 00:23:13:03 that you gave is to, 00:23:14:06 - 00:23:15:02 to understand 00:23:15:02 - 00:23:18:04 that the guilt outweighs anything. 00:23:18:04 - 00:23:21:04 And so, as tired as they may be, as frustrated 00:23:21:04 - 00:23:24:08 as they may be, the guilt is really, really high. 00:23:24:15 - 00:23:27:14 And a lot of times what happens is, 00:23:27:14 - 00:23:30:14 we get caught up in the rhetoric of like, 00:23:30:24 - 00:23:34:21 what God is doing or what God can do, right? 00:23:34:21 - 00:23:37:21 And God can't put more on you than you can bear. 00:23:37:21 - 00:23:41:07 Or, you know, God has appointed and anointed you for this. 00:23:42:02 - 00:23:44:06 And guess what you just did? 00:23:44:06 - 00:23:47:06 The guilt meter has shot through the roof. 00:23:47:06 - 00:23:50:00 And so one of the things Reverend Barnes 00:23:50:00 - 00:23:52:23 talked about is like the art of listening to hear. 00:23:54:14 - 00:23:57:14 Many times your current congregants have been in the church. 00:23:57:14 - 00:24:00:06 They know the rhetoric. Right? 00:24:00:06 - 00:24:03:22 But what they don't understand is how to now apply it into a situation 00:24:03:22 - 00:24:10:01 that is so far out of their idea of what God can and would do for them, 00:24:10:06 - 00:24:14:17 that now you just need to let them decide what parts of those things 00:24:14:17 - 00:24:17:23 that you fed to them or that they've got and then grown 00:24:17:23 - 00:24:20:23 into that, that they can grasp. 00:24:20:24 - 00:24:22:03 Well, one of the things I always tell 00:24:22:03 - 00:24:25:03 my students is, please don't give them your coping mechanism, 00:24:25:13 - 00:24:27:04 because when you leave the room, 00:24:27:04 - 00:24:30:04 guess what leaves with you your way of coping with this. 00:24:30:11 - 00:24:35:02 They're not going to remember those words you said, but what they can remember 00:24:35:02 - 00:24:40:03 if you help them is, oh, so you said, God thinks of you this way. 00:24:41:00 - 00:24:42:01 That's pretty powerful. 00:24:42:01 - 00:24:45:19 I wonder how you can hold on and maintain that, right? 00:24:45:19 - 00:24:49:21 So listening to hear what they are saying so that you can use 00:24:49:21 - 00:24:54:00 what they say to help them remember in those really bad times, 00:24:54:12 - 00:24:58:03 you know that, yeah, it's it's rough right now. 00:24:58:03 - 00:25:01:01 But I do believe this for myself. 00:25:01:01 - 00:25:03:20 And so I can hold on to that. Yeah. 00:25:03:20 - 00:25:08:21 So Doctor Barnes, Reverend Barnes asked a question about changing the narrative 00:25:09:00 - 00:25:13:03 and I want to kind of tie in and double down on what you just said, 00:25:13:03 - 00:25:16:03 Doctor Redman, about the rhetoric piece, because I think that really matters. 00:25:16:06 - 00:25:18:22 So I'm going to ask a two pronged question to you, Doctor Redman. 00:25:18:22 - 00:25:24:20 I want to ask about what challenge you would offer faith leaders 00:25:25:01 - 00:25:28:05 in terms of the language we use with working with caregivers. 00:25:28:22 - 00:25:30:17 And to you, Ms. 00:25:30:17 - 00:25:35:05 McDowell, I want to ask you how what does it look like 00:25:35:05 - 00:25:38:24 to equip those caregivers to sift 00:25:40:04 - 00:25:43:11 through some of the religious and spiritual messages 00:25:43:11 - 00:25:48:08 they may have gotten to determine which ones are healthy and adaptive for them? 00:25:48:14 - 00:25:51:14 So I'll let you do that in any order that is right for you. 00:25:53:15 - 00:25:56:02 Well, since I started that part, 00:25:56:02 - 00:25:59:06 what I would say is, the cliche’s, 00:25:59:15 - 00:26:02:15 they again, are 00:26:02:19 - 00:26:05:10 they're good when times are good, and that's fine. 00:26:05:10 - 00:26:06:17 But what you don't understand 00:26:06:17 - 00:26:09:17 is that we're not in good times, we're in suffering times. 00:26:09:17 - 00:26:13:05 And so even if it's something positive. 00:26:13:05 - 00:26:17:04 So even then, say God would not give you more than you can handle, right? 00:26:17:14 - 00:26:18:24 So why am I doing this? 00:26:18:24 - 00:26:20:17 Because I can't handle it. 00:26:20:17 - 00:26:25:07 And so you have to understand that in great times your words may be okay, 00:26:25:11 - 00:26:28:14 but in these times you just have to be careful because that guilt, 00:26:28:19 - 00:26:32:20 you just cannot understand how guilt really plays on the caregiver. 00:26:33:01 - 00:26:36:01 And to use those kind of things 00:26:36:20 - 00:26:40:17 that should be, you know, in ordinary circumstances, 00:26:41:00 - 00:26:44:12 things that uplift and encourage can actually be the very thing 00:26:44:12 - 00:26:49:02 that can destroy a caregiver's understanding of what is going on. 00:26:49:07 - 00:26:53:02 So I just be careful with, the cliche’s that are out there. 00:26:53:02 - 00:26:58:00 And again, to even say anything if you have not heard their story, 00:26:58:00 - 00:27:01:20 if you cannot pinpoint what the pain is, honestly, 00:27:02:04 - 00:27:06:09 my recommendation to all my students is don't say a word. 00:27:06:21 - 00:27:07:22 It is the presence. 00:27:07:22 - 00:27:10:22 It’s what Jesus did to come and be with. 00:27:10:24 - 00:27:14:10 That is the greatest thing you can do, especially if you don't know what to say. 00:27:17:01 - 00:27:17:21 I appreciate that 00:27:17:21 - 00:27:21:08 because I was also thinking about the words like resilient and strong 00:27:21:17 - 00:27:25:10 and how when someone's struggling, you don't want to hear that. 00:27:25:19 - 00:27:28:15 And to speak to your point about like getting 00:27:28:15 - 00:27:31:15 all the information and deciding what to do with it. 00:27:31:19 - 00:27:37:17 I always tell people to pause and listen, and reflect on the information 00:27:37:17 - 00:27:43:01 and see what fits for your unique experience and let go what doesn't. 00:27:43:04 - 00:27:43:14 Right. 00:27:43:14 - 00:27:47:18 And it might be in this moment there are parts of information 00:27:47:18 - 00:27:49:01 that you receive that you're like, 00:27:49:01 - 00:27:52:21 I can really focus on this part of it right now, and I can. 00:27:52:21 - 00:27:56:23 I have capacity and energy to do this, this part. 00:27:57:07 - 00:28:01:01 But the other parts are too overwhelming right now to even consider. 00:28:01:01 - 00:28:06:05 So release those parts and just focus on the areas that fit. 00:28:06:05 - 00:28:09:07 If the information comes in, you feel like none of it 00:28:10:03 - 00:28:14:21 fits in supporting you, then try to like go to the bare bones 00:28:14:21 - 00:28:18:13 of what they're saying, because maybe they're saying you need more community. 00:28:18:20 - 00:28:21:23 But they said to go make friends and you're like, what do you mean? 00:28:21:23 - 00:28:24:16 I don't, I don't have space to make friends. 00:28:24:16 - 00:28:26:24 But you're like, oh, community. 00:28:26:24 - 00:28:28:16 Okay, so I'm in church, right? 00:28:28:16 - 00:28:31:02 And I know that I go to like choir rehearsal. 00:28:31:02 - 00:28:32:23 I could talk to someone at choir rehearsal. 00:28:32:23 - 00:28:34:02 That's community. 00:28:34:02 - 00:28:36:23 And so that feels tangible and able to do. 00:28:36:23 - 00:28:40:15 But really just sitting with reflecting what people say to you 00:28:40:21 - 00:28:44:21 and picking what works and leaving what doesn't fit right now. 00:28:47:06 - 00:28:47:13 Yeah. 00:28:47:13 - 00:28:51:13 As I'm hearing you both thought, the the word that comes up for me 00:28:51:13 - 00:28:55:09 is agency and how powerful it can be 00:28:55:16 - 00:28:59:11 for people to be able to exercise agency in a situation. 00:28:59:17 - 00:29:03:17 To your point, Doctor Tiffany, that feels so all over the place. 00:29:03:17 - 00:29:05:06 And like all of these terrible things 00:29:05:06 - 00:29:09:02 are happening, to be able to say like this is something I can decide. 00:29:09:14 - 00:29:13:13 Yes. Can feel really powerful and transformative for people. 00:29:13:13 - 00:29:18:02 And I see both of you kind of, you know, talking about ways 00:29:18:02 - 00:29:21:02 in which we could help empower people to do that. 00:29:21:04 - 00:29:23:19 Yeah, yeah. 00:29:23:19 - 00:29:28:17 One of the things that I get oftentimes is what can we do, right? 00:29:28:17 - 00:29:29:12 What can we do? 00:29:29:12 - 00:29:32:14 And I as a caregiver, I don't have the capacity 00:29:32:14 - 00:29:35:12 to tell you what to do, like I really don't. 00:29:35:12 - 00:29:37:10 And then think about the guilt of me asking. 00:29:37:10 - 00:29:40:07 And so sometimes I just don't have the capacity. 00:29:40:07 - 00:29:43:06 And so instead of making me feel bad about that, 00:29:43:06 - 00:29:46:08 like I know they want to help me, but oh my gosh, like I just, 00:29:47:07 - 00:29:48:00 you know what? 00:29:48:00 - 00:29:51:02 We're going to bring dinner for the next week. 00:29:51:12 - 00:29:52:21 Yeah. You know what? 00:29:52:21 - 00:29:56:17 I know you probably feel bad because I know you keep a good house, 00:29:56:17 - 00:29:59:21 but we're just going to send some folks to just to come pick up for you. 00:29:59:21 - 00:30:04:06 Do laundry, do dishes just so you can just rest or take care, right? 00:30:04:06 - 00:30:09:13 Like help them help themselves because they don't know sometimes. 00:30:09:13 - 00:30:12:13 And as obvious it is as it is to people outside, 00:30:12:13 - 00:30:14:13 when you say that, that makes it feel worse 00:30:14:13 - 00:30:16:23 because it's like, I can't even manage my life now. 00:30:16:23 - 00:30:20:18 So again, it's listening to what you hear and 00:30:21:10 - 00:30:26:15 and acting on that versus what you think they should hear and do. 00:30:26:15 - 00:30:28:09 And oftentimes we're saying it. 00:30:28:09 - 00:30:31:09 We just don't realize as a caregiver that we're saying it. 00:30:31:13 - 00:30:32:21 Yeah. That's you. 00:30:32:21 - 00:30:33:14 Because that like, 00:30:33:14 - 00:30:38:17 let me know if you need anything line, is not when so overwhelmed. 00:30:38:17 - 00:30:39:05 Right. 00:30:39:05 - 00:30:42:06 And so when I work with, caregivers I give them 00:30:42:06 - 00:30:46:00 this beautiful list of all the ways someone can help. 00:30:46:10 - 00:30:50:09 And I give it to people who aren't caregivers who want to help the giver. 00:30:50:11 - 00:30:53:09 Oh, they have lots of options now. 00:30:53:09 - 00:30:56:11 DoorDash, gift card, gas. 00:30:56:17 - 00:31:00:06 If they're taking people back and forth to doctor's appointments, just thinking 00:31:01:10 - 00:31:03:16 about like, what are the things needed 00:31:03:16 - 00:31:07:00 for this person to help this person and how can we step in. 00:31:07:00 - 00:31:09:17 That is beautiful because that really highlights 00:31:09:17 - 00:31:13:18 a big need for when we are supporting people who are caregivers. 00:31:13:22 - 00:31:16:01 Yeah, yeah. And yes. 00:31:16:01 - 00:31:20:06 So there's a request to Danielle to share that list if you're willing to do that. 00:31:20:16 - 00:31:23:20 Dr. Kim says jobs friends were most effective 00:31:23:20 - 00:31:26:13 when they just sat with him after their visit. 00:31:26:13 - 00:31:29:13 Once they started talking, they shifted blame, and it was a mess. 00:31:29:15 - 00:31:30:19 Good reminder to listen. 00:31:30:19 - 00:31:34:23 Well, look, I editorialized that comment, Doctor Kim and the in my head, 00:31:34:23 - 00:31:38:02 it's that they were most effective when they just sat with him and shut up. 00:31:38:02 - 00:31:39:12 But that's not what that was. 00:31:39:12 - 00:31:41:17 That's just what I heard in my head. 00:31:41:17 - 00:31:45:20 What we can park for a minute on this piece around over. 00:31:45:20 - 00:31:46:17 What I was going to say 00:31:46:17 - 00:31:50:20 that I was going to say that, but I knew this was a different type of audience. 00:31:50:20 - 00:31:52:04 I'll say it, 00:31:52:04 - 00:31:55:04 and it wouldn't be too disruptive if they get rid of me at this point, so 00:31:55:04 - 00:31:55:18 I could say it. 00:31:59:12 - 00:32:01:01 Yes. So I want to 00:32:01:01 - 00:32:04:19 part with this piece around overwhelm because that feels really important. 00:32:04:21 - 00:32:08:17 So we've talked about just like overwhelmed morale. 00:32:08:17 - 00:32:11:17 And if somebody says, let me know what I can do. 00:32:12:07 - 00:32:15:07 There's also I think a piece around like decision 00:32:15:07 - 00:32:18:11 making in general that can feel really overwhelming for people. 00:32:18:23 - 00:32:21:23 I want to add into the mix that often 00:32:22:04 - 00:32:25:24 the person who ends up in that caregiver role was already like, 00:32:25:24 - 00:32:29:17 already had the role of like, the strong one and or considerable 00:32:29:18 - 00:32:32:10 one in the family or whatever the case may be. 00:32:32:10 - 00:32:35:10 And so I wonder if we could talk a little bit about 00:32:36:10 - 00:32:40:00 just kind of what the experience of being a caregiver 00:32:40:00 - 00:32:44:07 is like on a day to day basis, and what kind of leads to that overwhelm? 00:32:45:08 - 00:32:46:06 Most definitely. 00:32:46:06 - 00:32:49:02 So I am a caregiver. My mother has cancer. 00:32:49:02 - 00:32:51:20 My father has dementia, my father lives in my home. 00:32:51:20 - 00:32:56:00 I have a adult daughter who has a mental health, a serious mental health condition. 00:32:56:08 - 00:33:00:02 And so I've been a caregiver for a very, very long time. 00:33:00:08 - 00:33:04:04 And I will say the overwhelm comes when there 00:33:04:04 - 00:33:07:11 competing needs when I have other children to take care of. 00:33:07:11 - 00:33:11:00 I have a husband, I'm trying to work, and then they need me too. 00:33:11:03 - 00:33:15:14 And I get really overwhelmed with having to use the brain capacity 00:33:15:18 - 00:33:19:11 to find other supports, to get them to tag in 00:33:19:11 - 00:33:23:24 and have to advocate for my need because I'm not being considered, 00:33:23:24 - 00:33:26:17 because I'm usually good at juggling a lot of things. 00:33:26:17 - 00:33:27:05 Right. 00:33:27:05 - 00:33:30:18 And so it's really important when I am overwhelmed 00:33:30:18 - 00:33:35:14 to just pause for a bit and sit with myself and pray and meditate 00:33:36:00 - 00:33:41:03 and then walk away with like, okay, what's the next small thing that Daniel can? 00:33:41:06 - 00:33:43:04 Same thing I tell my clients like, wait, 00:33:43:04 - 00:33:46:24 what can I do right now to move me to the next direction? 00:33:47:02 - 00:33:50:03 And just taking those small steps at a time is so important. 00:33:50:13 - 00:33:50:22 Yeah. 00:33:53:00 - 00:33:54:03 Yeah. 00:33:54:03 - 00:33:57:02 I'm sorry, I, I have a slide 00:33:57:02 - 00:34:00:02 that I share with, my students 00:34:00:02 - 00:34:04:09 when I kind of try to help them understand what it means to be overwhelmed. 00:34:04:13 - 00:34:06:06 So just think about this. 00:34:06:06 - 00:34:09:19 You have your home and the management of that, right? 00:34:10:04 - 00:34:14:03 You have your personal hygiene and care. 00:34:14:03 - 00:34:18:02 And let's say now you're the person you're giving care 00:34:18:02 - 00:34:21:21 to, you actually have to do that for them to every single day, right? 00:34:21:21 - 00:34:25:22 Then you think about how about like just cooking 00:34:26:01 - 00:34:30:09 and doing all the just normal things of the day? Now 00:34:30:13 - 00:34:33:13 I have got to become a nurse, 00:34:33:15 - 00:34:36:15 a doctor, an OT, 00:34:36:16 - 00:34:39:16 a PT, a respiratory therapist. 00:34:40:08 - 00:34:43:11 Oh, and by the way, I do have my old job that I've gone to school 00:34:43:11 - 00:34:47:24 and done all this stuff and that, I mean, how can you not be overwhelmed? 00:34:47:24 - 00:34:51:14 I am actually learning something that I never in my wildest dreams 00:34:51:14 - 00:34:54:14 wanted to learn, much less thought I would. 00:34:54:17 - 00:34:59:03 So yeah, I mean really think through all the things that a caregiver 00:34:59:03 - 00:35:02:18 is now having to do outside of just normal day activities. 00:35:02:18 - 00:35:06:14 And it's like, yeah, they are, they're a little overwhelmed. 00:35:07:10 - 00:35:08:21 I want to point to that. 00:35:08:21 - 00:35:12:00 So the way the brain works, which is really important to understand, 00:35:12:05 - 00:35:14:16 we have a cognitive part, an emotional part. 00:35:14:16 - 00:35:16:03 So when you're overwhelmed 00:35:16:03 - 00:35:19:22 that emotional part checks in and the cognitive part stops working. 00:35:20:03 - 00:35:23:21 And so when you realize that your feelings are now taking 00:35:23:21 - 00:35:27:05 control, it's really difficult to think about all those steps. 00:35:27:05 - 00:35:32:03 So that was why I said, like I meditate so I could try to calm that emotional part 00:35:32:03 - 00:35:33:09 back down enough. 00:35:33:09 - 00:35:38:03 So the cognitive part kicks back in to help me to determine what to do next. 00:35:38:03 - 00:35:42:13 And so I think the point you're making is beautiful because you can't come up 00:35:42:13 - 00:35:45:21 with the logic from that while you are overwhelmed. 00:35:45:21 - 00:35:48:04 The brain isn't do that. 00:35:48:04 - 00:35:51:14 Yes, I think that point about just like not 00:35:51:14 - 00:35:55:10 being able to engage in good decision making when you're overwhelmed 00:35:55:21 - 00:36:00:02 is so important, because often we think about like, oh, it's crunch time. 00:36:00:02 - 00:36:02:11 I gotta, you know, and then as a caregiver, 00:36:02:11 - 00:36:05:19 you're making such high stakes decisions sometimes, right? 00:36:05:19 - 00:36:09:14 So your care of yourself actually impacts your ability 00:36:09:20 - 00:36:12:11 to care for your loved one in a very meaningful way. 00:36:12:11 - 00:36:15:11 Not to mention that you deserve 00:36:15:11 - 00:36:19:06 care of yourself because you're a human being and God created you, right? 00:36:19:06 - 00:36:20:16 Yes, yes. 00:36:20:16 - 00:36:22:10 Oh, I have so many questions, 00:36:22:10 - 00:36:26:15 but I want to make sure that we open it up for some Q&A from the audience. 00:36:26:20 - 00:36:28:06 So you're welcome to use the chat. 00:36:28:06 - 00:36:31:17 And, I have the chat box open to attend to your question. 00:36:32:17 - 00:36:34:10 Reverend Barnes asks, 00:36:34:10 - 00:36:38:08 how do we normalize that it's okay to be overwhelmed 00:36:38:16 - 00:36:42:08 not only for the caregiver, but also for those who want to support them? 00:36:43:24 - 00:36:45:19 So this is a big one for me 00:36:45:19 - 00:36:48:19 when it comes to our religious institutions. 00:36:49:06 - 00:36:51:16 Let them please. 00:36:51:16 - 00:36:55:04 That is, we don't want them to be when they come to church 00:36:55:04 - 00:36:59:00 and they are crying and and again, we want to dry those tears up. 00:36:59:06 - 00:37:03:02 We want to say no, we going to pray this and yes, please do. 00:37:03:02 - 00:37:05:00 But let me cry. 00:37:05:00 - 00:37:07:07 Let me yell. Let me vent. 00:37:07:07 - 00:37:11:03 It was one of those things was I give them the list of being, 00:37:11:03 - 00:37:14:23 being overwhelmed at the task because the minute anger enters the room, 00:37:16:09 - 00:37:18:00 oh. We shut it down. 00:37:18:00 - 00:37:19:22 Oh, we shut it down so quickly. 00:37:19:22 - 00:37:22:19 It's it's amazing how we see your feet. 00:37:22:19 - 00:37:23:24 We feel anger. 00:37:23:24 - 00:37:24:12 And so. 00:37:24:12 - 00:37:27:06 Yeah, how do we say it's okay to be okay? 00:37:27:06 - 00:37:29:08 Let them just let them. 00:37:30:21 - 00:37:31:02 Yeah. 00:37:31:02 - 00:37:34:02 And I would add to that, I think some of us 00:37:34:21 - 00:37:39:16 need to attend to our own relationship with our emotions to be able 00:37:39:16 - 00:37:43:21 to do that without trying to fix it or make it go away. 00:37:44:14 - 00:37:45:11 Yeah. Right. 00:37:45:11 - 00:37:47:16 Because I do think that's a great point. 00:37:47:16 - 00:37:51:10 We, we don't want to override 00:37:51:10 - 00:37:55:07 people's emotions in our effort to care for them, right? 00:37:55:15 - 00:37:57:00 Yeah, 00:37:57:00 - 00:37:57:14 definitely. 00:37:57:14 - 00:37:59:11 I say ditto everything you just said. 00:37:59:11 - 00:38:03:18 And and it does make you have to, work towards 00:38:03:18 - 00:38:07:22 having to not focus on your need and focus on the needs of the person. 00:38:08:03 - 00:38:11:12 And if you stay focused and centered there, you'll be able to rise 00:38:11:12 - 00:38:14:12 to the occasion to meet their need, because you're listening 00:38:14:14 - 00:38:17:15 and being supportive based on what they need and not the need. 00:38:17:20 - 00:38:20:11 And so get comfortable with difficult feelings is how you, 00:38:21:17 - 00:38:23:18 in these environments. 00:38:23:18 - 00:38:25:00 Yeah. 00:38:25:00 - 00:38:28:00 Any other questions popping up for folks in the audience? 00:38:28:08 - 00:38:31:08 I could I could go on for another hour. 00:38:31:08 - 00:38:34:08 I want to make sure y'all get your questions answered. 00:38:35:09 - 00:38:37:03 While we're waiting, I'll add a point. 00:38:37:03 - 00:38:38:14 I see a question. 00:38:38:14 - 00:38:42:12 One of the things I noticed with caregivers and even myself is part of 00:38:42:12 - 00:38:46:18 this, work is a story that includes me and a loved one, 00:38:47:01 - 00:38:50:18 and sometimes it can be really challenging to want to speak and share 00:38:50:18 - 00:38:55:13 my experiencing experiences, knowing that it's connected to other people. 00:38:55:16 - 00:38:59:16 And so it's important to have space to kind of think through that 00:38:59:19 - 00:39:04:06 and what that looks like, to be able to still have voice to your experience, 00:39:04:14 - 00:39:10:04 and speak in ways that is loving and kind for those who are being affected, too. 00:39:10:09 - 00:39:13:11 And so it's really important to think about what does that look like? 00:39:13:11 - 00:39:16:11 Do you have a conversation with the loved one and share, 00:39:16:11 - 00:39:19:19 like what you like to be able to talk about with other people 00:39:19:23 - 00:39:22:22 is really important because as a caregiver, 00:39:22:22 - 00:39:26:03 you need to be able to release these things to in your way 00:39:26:03 - 00:39:29:00 because it's part of your story. So it's really important. 00:39:29:00 - 00:39:30:18 Yeah, that's a great point. 00:39:30:18 - 00:39:34:24 And it, actually connects with a comment in the chat that says, 00:39:34:24 - 00:39:38:06 why should we have to ask a person to say or give us a break? 00:39:38:11 - 00:39:40:10 Shouldn't closer friends realize that? 00:39:41:11 - 00:39:42:14 Oh, absolutely. 00:39:42:14 - 00:39:45:23 Yes. I say the same thing as a caregiver myself. 00:39:45:24 - 00:39:50:03 You would think, oh my gosh, Tiffany hasn't had her hair done in a minute. 00:39:50:03 - 00:39:53:21 Like something is going on or wow, she's really snappy. 00:39:53:21 - 00:39:55:04 That's not like her. 00:39:55:04 - 00:39:56:00 We should. 00:39:56:00 - 00:40:00:14 And I think if we're really close in our church families, we should. 00:40:00:20 - 00:40:02:13 But the problem is we get scared. 00:40:02:13 - 00:40:03:16 We don't know what to do. 00:40:03:16 - 00:40:05:21 We want to have the answer. 00:40:05:21 - 00:40:08:21 We don't want to just sit and let that happen. 00:40:08:24 - 00:40:12:22 And so, yes, I think you're so correct that yes, they should know. 00:40:13:21 - 00:40:17:22 But I think as caregivers, the point of all this self-awareness 00:40:17:22 - 00:40:21:04 and self-care is let's ask 00:40:21:23 - 00:40:24:23 like, let's ask. 00:40:25:07 - 00:40:25:20 Yeah. 00:40:25:20 - 00:40:27:08 It's a it's a risk. Right. 00:40:27:08 - 00:40:31:21 I think for a lot of people it's a risk to ask a 00:40:32:03 - 00:40:35:02 and you know some of the process I kind of walk people 00:40:35:02 - 00:40:38:21 through is like okay so you're not getting the help now 00:40:40:15 - 00:40:43:06 and you're afraid to ask for help. 00:40:43:06 - 00:40:43:22 I get that. 00:40:43:22 - 00:40:48:17 But there's like a chance that you could get the help if you asked. 00:40:49:04 - 00:40:53:19 So how can we like a quick view, in this space in between? 00:40:53:19 - 00:40:58:07 Maybe that looks like identifying people who you know are in your corner, 00:40:58:13 - 00:41:01:11 but maybe, as you said, there's like a paralysis of action 00:41:01:11 - 00:41:03:20 on their part and they don't know what to do. 00:41:03:20 - 00:41:08:03 I think also in it reminds me of what you said, Danielle, about, 00:41:08:22 - 00:41:11:06 you know, really kind of talking with the person that you're caring 00:41:11:06 - 00:41:14:06 for to figure out, okay, what can I talk about? 00:41:14:06 - 00:41:17:14 Because sometimes we might even feel like in our effort 00:41:17:14 - 00:41:20:23 to protect the person who's being cared for, 00:41:21:08 - 00:41:24:07 we can't actually talk about how much we're going through. 00:41:24:07 - 00:41:24:16 Right? 00:41:24:16 - 00:41:28:11 And so everyone else from the outside in is thinking, oh, well, you know, 00:41:28:11 - 00:41:30:19 Tiffany's okay. She's got it all figured out. 00:41:30:19 - 00:41:33:08 She's doing our work and caring for her loved one. 00:41:33:08 - 00:41:36:16 And meanwhile, Tiffany's y'all know that meme where the ladies 00:41:36:16 - 00:41:40:21 just scream and like, I, you know, the caregiver caregivers like that, right? 00:41:40:21 - 00:41:41:18 Yes. Yeah. 00:41:41:18 - 00:41:45:10 And so I wonder about how we even help 00:41:46:00 - 00:41:52:14 caregivers to ask, there's a follow up comment and ask. 00:41:52:14 - 00:41:55:11 People are living their life so busy. 00:41:55:11 - 00:41:57:14 And then you decide you don't want to ask. 00:41:57:14 - 00:42:01:10 And that's a real tension, how it is people navigate that. 00:42:01:10 - 00:42:06:02 It is real system of people struggling for various different reasons. 00:42:06:08 - 00:42:08:03 And so I like to name that. 00:42:08:03 - 00:42:11:23 But what I tell clients, especially those are hesitant to ask other people 00:42:11:23 - 00:42:15:16 for help, is to consider like, well, what could I do in return? 00:42:15:16 - 00:42:18:06 So it doesn't feel like it's one sided, right? 00:42:18:06 - 00:42:19:07 So it could be like, 00:42:19:07 - 00:42:22:22 hey, like, I really need your help getting my dad to some appointments 00:42:23:04 - 00:42:27:23 and I can watch your son, when you go on date night with your husband on Saturday. 00:42:28:01 - 00:42:31:06 And so now it feels less of I'm a burden on someone, 00:42:31:12 - 00:42:36:07 and we both helping each other, and that feels a little bit easier to ask 00:42:36:12 - 00:42:40:04 because you're able to support in some way and have the relationship 00:42:40:04 - 00:42:41:18 not feel one sided. 00:42:41:18 - 00:42:43:19 So so that helps with that. 00:42:43:19 - 00:42:47:22 I also say like outside of like your immediate supports in your community, 00:42:47:22 - 00:42:50:22 in your church, in your family, you want to think about like 00:42:50:22 - 00:42:54:14 there are particular sometimes resources for a particular need 00:42:54:17 - 00:42:59:05 where there are agencies to help with that particular thing too. 00:42:59:07 - 00:43:03:06 So opening your ideas about what does it look like to have support 00:43:03:14 - 00:43:09:08 and having more than a few helps you not lean on one person all the time to. 00:43:10:19 - 00:43:14:09 So related to that, what supports might exist 00:43:14:09 - 00:43:17:14 for caregivers that we could encourage people to tap into? 00:43:18:21 - 00:43:21:14 So there are a couple different ones for different needs. 00:43:21:14 - 00:43:25:01 So like if you have a loved one with dementia, there is support for that. 00:43:25:07 - 00:43:27:15 Do you have a level with cancer there supports with that. 00:43:27:15 - 00:43:30:01 I have a list, so I can't name them all off. 00:43:30:01 - 00:43:30:11 As I get 00:43:30:11 - 00:43:34:14 in this beautiful age of perimenopause, the brain doesn't like register it, 00:43:34:20 - 00:43:38:21 but I will supply the list so that everyone here has access to it. 00:43:39:09 - 00:43:42:14 And at bare minimum you can call 211 00:43:42:23 - 00:43:46:10 and say to 211, this is my particular need. 00:43:46:10 - 00:43:50:15 I'm not aware of resources, and they are people who are trained to use 00:43:50:15 - 00:43:53:18 the good old Google to help you locate what you need. 00:43:53:18 - 00:43:54:08 Right. 00:43:54:08 - 00:43:57:22 So I'll definitely make sure you have access to that, but it's really important. 00:43:57:23 - 00:43:59:12 It's not a ton of resources. 00:43:59:12 - 00:44:01:04 I'm going to be honest. Right. 00:44:01:04 - 00:44:02:24 Especially with this new administration. 00:44:02:24 - 00:44:04:16 Things are getting cut here and there. 00:44:04:16 - 00:44:05:18 But there are some. 00:44:05:18 - 00:44:07:17 And so it's worth to at least see. 00:44:10:07 - 00:44:11:09 Okay. 00:44:11:09 - 00:44:11:18 Oh go ahead. 00:44:11:18 - 00:44:16:07 And I would just challenge because I hear we have a lot of pastors on this line. 00:44:16:15 - 00:44:19:07 I would challenge us to start doing it for ourselves. 00:44:19:07 - 00:44:22:19 Like we have, I'm a member of a church, right? 00:44:22:19 - 00:44:24:05 I have some skills and training. 00:44:24:05 - 00:44:27:05 How about we start our own support groups and partner? 00:44:27:10 - 00:44:30:06 I mean, there's churches that like just go down the street on the corner, there's 00:44:30:06 - 00:44:33:15 let's partner and like, let's do this for ourselves. 00:44:33:15 - 00:44:35:24 I mean, it's it's one of the things that happened in my church. 00:44:35:24 - 00:44:38:24 I just got here from, Columbia, South Carolina, and we 00:44:39:17 - 00:44:43:10 I had a husband with ALS, and then we had a really active 00:44:43:10 - 00:44:46:16 member that died from cancer, like in the with to to support groups. 00:44:46:16 - 00:44:51:10 One for this, you know, people like we had to do that 00:44:51:10 - 00:44:56:01 and you can do it because yeah we were all a part of these congregations. 00:44:56:01 - 00:44:59:01 So let's take it upon ourselves to start helping each other. 00:44:59:12 - 00:44:59:24 Yeah. 00:44:59:24 - 00:45:04:04 So one last question, which I think is related to your point, Tiffany, 00:45:04:13 - 00:45:08:06 a person in the chat talked about the fact that deacons 00:45:08:06 - 00:45:10:15 in a lot of churches, as Reverend Barnes mentioned, 00:45:10:15 - 00:45:13:10 are in those kind of front facing caregiving roles. 00:45:13:10 - 00:45:16:01 They're dealing with folks who are grieving, incarcerated 00:45:16:01 - 00:45:19:11 with financial difficulties, and it can be overwhelming for them. 00:45:19:23 - 00:45:24:09 So what would you suggest folks in those roles do to support themselves? 00:45:26:00 - 00:45:27:08 Reach out to therapists? 00:45:27:08 - 00:45:30:08 We are very we love to help people. Right? 00:45:30:08 - 00:45:34:10 And I've connected with churches where I've come in and done events and groups. 00:45:34:10 - 00:45:37:20 Those support groups, like she's mentioning, to help congregations. 00:45:37:20 - 00:45:39:14 So I encourage you, if you're a deacon, 00:45:39:14 - 00:45:42:14 you probably have some therapists in your church that are already trained 00:45:42:14 - 00:45:46:03 and connected to resources used to your community. 00:45:46:03 - 00:45:49:03 They're present, and we love to help. 00:45:51:02 - 00:45:52:10 I think everybody just thinks 00:45:52:10 - 00:45:55:10 that it's always about like the tithing and, you know, the money. 00:45:55:16 - 00:45:59:05 But oftentimes, you know, we can invest our time and 00:45:59:06 - 00:46:01:19 and you have folks that are willing to do that 00:46:01:19 - 00:46:04:03 because they're invested in that community. 00:46:04:03 - 00:46:07:03 So if you don't ask. 00:46:08:12 - 00:46:08:24 Yeah. 00:46:08:24 - 00:46:10:19 Well, Doctor Redman, Ms. 00:46:10:19 - 00:46:12:17 McDowell, thank you so much. 00:46:12:17 - 00:46:15:04 This has been such a rich conversation. 00:46:15:04 - 00:46:18:17 I really appreciate both of you bringing your expertise 00:46:18:17 - 00:46:21:17 and your personal experiences to this moment. 00:46:21:18 - 00:46:25:00 My my hope and my prayer is for everyone 00:46:25:00 - 00:46:28:22 on the call for folks who are in that caregiver role. 00:46:28:22 - 00:46:32:22 This is our challenge to care for ourselves, to reach out, 00:46:32:22 - 00:46:37:08 to support, to ask for help, for folks who are not in a caregiver role. 00:46:37:08 - 00:46:41:09 What I promise is that you're connected with somebody who is. Yes. 00:46:41:09 - 00:46:46:10 So this is your challenge to offer support, to reach out, to show 00:46:46:10 - 00:46:50:12 up, to send that DoorDash gift card, to say, hey, can I come sit with you 00:46:50:12 - 00:46:53:00 so you don't have to be alone all day, right? 00:46:53:00 - 00:46:56:19 And so we really want to encourage, community care. 00:46:57:06 - 00:47:00:02 One of the things we've been talking about is how we get through these 00:47:00:02 - 00:47:03:07 tough periods is that we remind each other that we're not alone. 00:47:03:07 - 00:47:07:18 And so I'm grateful to both of you, for bringing those issues to the surface.