00;00;00;00 - 00;00;07;17 Speaker 1 I'm doctor Rob Wynn and you're listening to Real cancer Talk from VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. 00;00;07;17 - 00;00;26;28 Community Clovia This is Community Conversations. The Black Health Wins podcast and my very special guest joining me on the show. We want to introduce him first. He's too sweet to be sour. Always the man of the hour. Doctor Robert Winn, director of the VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. How are you doing? 00;00;27;27 - 00;00;32;13 Dr. Robert Winn You know, Sister Clo, you know, I'm always good when I’m on the show with you. Come on now. 00;00;32;16 - 00;00;52;07 Community Clovia We got a tight show lined up for you and folks are saying, wait a minute, VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. That's right. Jennifer Pegher is executive director of the Association of the American Cancer Institute. And she's going to talk about cancer research and the advocacy that goes into it. But Doctor Winn we want to do an opener from you. 00;00;52;12 - 00;00;58;09 Community Clovia You know, we need like that icebreaker before we head into this conversation because we're talking about the C word. 00;00;58;12 - 00;01;16;15 Dr. Robert Winn Yeah. Well, you know, the wonderful word about the C word is a C word is becoming a, instead of a capital C is becoming a smaller C. Let me just hit you with the facts before we start this conversation. People always say, yo, I'm giving all this money. I see all these commercials. What people doing? Y’all just taking my money. 00;01;16;15 - 00;01;45;14 Dr. Robert Winn And, you know, y'all building an industry on cancer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Except for the truth of the matter is, let's get down to this talk real. 30. Almost 36% fewer Americans actually are dying from cancer today than they were in 1991. So we need to stop the plane that is not working. What we do need to be is better about, you know, that song say you know, from Janet Jackson back in the day. 00;01;45;14 - 00;01;46;19 Dr. Robert Winn What have you done for me lately. 00;01;46;19 - 00;01;46;27 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;01;46;28 - 00;02;06;19 Dr. Robert Winn Well you know, the problem is you don't know what's been done lately. If the if the field doesn't tell you that 36% more people are showing up to weddings to graduations, 36% more people are showing up to baseball games in the churches, you know what I'm saying? And that isn’t because people are drinking carrot juice and eating kale. 00;02;06;20 - 00;02;27;17 Dr. Robert Winn I swear to you, is not. It's because there has been a a almost the national team if you will, that has figured out how to work together. And part of that team is the American Association of Cancer Institute with you'll hear from Jennifer Pegher, who is like, you know, we need, you know, like, you know, we be riding like Thelma and Louise, you know what I’m saying? 00;02;27;20 - 00;02;50;09 Community Clovia Well. Well, Jenn is the second executive director in AACI’s history. And, Doctor Winn, you serve as the president. Jenn, what is the latest when it comes to that research? As Doctor Winn was talking about it, because we know we have some challenges, as he did say about folks. Yeah, you're taking this money, but what is the impact of all of this research? 00;02;50;19 - 00;03;12;26 Jennifer Pegher Well, Clo, as Doctor Winn was saying, you know, we've seen, steady decline in mortality over the last 30 years. And, you know, cancers that were a death sentence, you know, 10 to 20 years ago are now manageable diseases. We've got over 18 million cancer survivors that are alive in the U.S today thanks to advances in prevention, screening and treatment. 00;03;12;26 - 00;03;22;01 Jennifer Pegher So, you know, we really know that, this research is making a difference in the lives of Americans. And, and that that is a worthwhile investment. 00;03;22;03 - 00;03;27;16 Community Clovia Jen, what are some of the biggest misconceptions you fight in advocating for cancer research? 00;03;27;19 - 00;03;45;03 Jennifer Pegher So I would say there's two, and Doctor Winn sort of alluded to this. You know, when he said, you know, people asking about, you know, what these dollars are going towards? I think, you know, many people ask me and ask, my colleagues, you know, if the federal government has been investing in cancer research for over 50 years. 00;03;45;03 - 00;04;08;12 Jennifer Pegher Why isn't there a cure? But I think, you know, the answer is not simple. Cancer's not a simple disease with a single cure. There are over 100 types and subtypes of cancer and outcomes vary based on age, sex, race, and other factors. So, you know, there is not a cure for cancer. But curative therapies do exist for many cancer types. 00;04;08;19 - 00;04;38;24 Jennifer Pegher We've seen major improvements, as we said, in cancer mortality. I think another misconception is that federal funding invests, you know, in cancer research or biomedical research, is wasteful or even fraudulent. And so, you know, we've really seen this play out, with respect to, what's going on in Washington DC and how the administration would like to cut and cap indirect costs on universities and institutions. 00;04;38;26 - 00;04;56;22 Jennifer Pegher But much of that funding is actually covering essential supplies, infrastructure, human resources, all things that go into conducting research. And I think it's a very, confusing concept, but very important to, to being able to do that research. 00;04;56;25 - 00;05;17;28 Community Clovia Thank you so much for that, Jenn. Doctor Winn, I know, Jenn, she mentioned about hey, yes, it's cancer is not a one size fits all disease to try to treat right. But clinical trials can play a part into this. But we got to get more folks that look like you and me to be a part of them, right? 00;05;18;01 - 00;05;28;16 Dr. Robert Winn You know, that's the whole thing. So, so, so hear me out on this. That 36%, now she’s right now when you talk about cancer. But you know, that's like just talk about sports. 00;05;28;22 - 00;05;29;18 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;05;29;20 - 00;05;40;05 Dr. Robert Winn Right. There's multiple versions of sports right there’s football. We've got the Oklahoma, you know, Thunder, last night playing basketball. So when you say cancer, people need to just actually reframe the way they think about it. 00;05;40;09 - 00;05;50;28 Dr. Robert Winn When you say cancer, that's like saying it's sports. It's so it was in the field of cancer, for example, melanomas and some other cancers are almost 90% cure rate. 00;05;51;00 - 00;05;51;10 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;05;51;13 - 00;06;01;17 Dr. Robert Winn You know what I'm saying. So so when I think of people and I say that is I think the 36% is we talk about a couple things. One prevention. 00;06;01;19 - 00;06;23;07 Dr. Robert Winn Which is we going to come back to I mean behaviors lifestyle stuff modification, they matter. Right. You know we know that diabetes now can contribute to more aggressive cancers. Obesity can contribute to more aggressive cancers. But you know the reality is that 36% also includes screening. We just got better about more awareness around colorectal screening and prostates. 00;06;23;07 - 00;06;23;25 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;06;23;27 - 00;06;53;12 Dr. Robert Winn Then in breast cancer screening. But you're right. Well component of that is the new molecules that have become miracle medicines. And part of that is the clinical trials. And I just want to let people know that when we talk about some 36%, somebody's going to say, yeah, well, that don't include nobody for my for my race. That's, that's B.S. in terms of the 36%, all racial and ethnic groups in the United States can show that there has been a positive benefit of the science reaching them. 00;06;53;14 - 00;07;12;18 Jennifer Pegher The argument is, could there be more and could it be better? And the answer is absolutely yes. So clinical trials, why do you need trials? Because if it works on you, but it don't work on anybody else. Or if it works on everybody else except for you, we need to know that that's why we need to be rapid in all these clinical trials. 00;07;12;18 - 00;07;17;12 Station ID And I'll end with this. Y'all need to stop talking about trials. I wish there was a better word for it, but there isn’t. 00;07;17;15 - 00;07;23;10 Community Clovia We've been trying to. I had a word, but I've forgotten all about it. I’ll... I'll rethink about it. 00;07;23;12 - 00;07;23;26 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;07;23;28 - 00;07;43;02 Dr. Robert Winn Come on, we don't need to rethink it because we now talk about not if it's going to work or not work. If we actually talk about is it going to work better? We know immunotherapy works in molecular. Targeted therapy works. But the question is now in 1920 and 1930, they straight up experiment in 2025. Y'all need to stop playing. 00;07;43;03 - 00;07;55;24 Dr. Robert Winn When you reach the end of the standard of care. You're not asking your physicians and other people if I've reached the end of the standard of care, is this something else, like a clinical trial? I could be put on, then you ain’t doing your job. 00;07;55;27 - 00;08;02;28 Community Clovia That's good stuff. We're going to take a break and come on back. This is Community Conversations, the Black Health Wins podcast. 00;08;02;28 - 00;08;27;25 Community Clovia Welcome back to Community Conversations. I am Miss Community Clovia. It’s the Black Health Wins Podcast. My special guest joining me on the show is executive director of the Association of American Cancer Institutes on Cancer Research Advocacy. Jenn Pegher is joining me and of course, the director of the VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center, Doctor Robert Winn. Now we want to continue this conversation. 00;08;27;26 - 00;08;48;13 Community Clovia We don't want to call it experimenting. We we want to get a new name for clinical trials. And we talked about it a little bit. Black folks in particular, folks who look like you and me, will say, hey, if they catch a cold, I catch a flu, but they get cured and I don't. How do you respond to that, Doctor Winn? 00;08;48;15 - 00;09;13;26 Dr. Robert Winn Yeah, you know this. You know the the data. You know, the histories would tell us that there's some truth to that. But I want to add another little wrinkle in it. In 1991, for every one white person that died from cancer, 30% more African-Americans were going to die from cancer in 2024 2025, for every one white person that may die from cancer. 00;09;13;29 - 00;09;35;17 Dr. Robert Winn That's down to little less than 10% now. So if you want to tell me that there is still differences, that's going to be true. There's differences in prostate outcomes, the differences in breast outcomes that we need to continue to work towards. But to say that we haven't had any progress is actually also not actually true. You know, this is back to the day now. 00;09;35;20 - 00;09;58;11 Dr. Robert Winn Don't don't don't hate me on this. Kanye 1.0, come on, that is Kanye 1.0 before we became Ye, the whole nine, you know what I mean? So, so. My man used to say, sometimes we be focused. So focused on what you lacking. And as opposed to what we packing, that what you do, you undermine yourself. And in some ways, because we are always talking about what we don't have as to the progress that we have made. 00;09;58;12 - 00;09;58;22 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;09;58;23 - 00;10;02;04 Dr. Robert Winn It makes you look like you standing in the same spot and we’re not. 00;10;02;06 - 00;10;25;14 Community Clovia Oh, Doctor Winn, thank you so much for dropping that on us because it's very important. We always talk about it's not going to be a 100% cure rate today or tomorrow, but you're definitely making strides. Just the simple fact that we are making this a topic of cancer research and advocacy. That's a huge start on a major journey. 00;10;25;17 - 00;10;28;28 Dr. Robert Winn You know, huge and AACI is a part of that. For real? For real. 00;10;29;01 - 00;10;37;02 Community Clovia So, Jenn we want to know more about your research and, and, and share a little bit more about the Association of the American Cancer Institutes. 00;10;37;04 - 00;11;06;08 Jennifer Pegher Thanks, Clo. So, AACI has been around since the late 1950s, but we are an organization that is able to bring together cancer centers from across the country. They're able to come together and talk about challenges and solutions. And so, you know, cancer centers in Louisiana can learn from cancer centers like Doctor Winn’s in Richmond, Virginia. And, you know, we really are able to, you know, they're able to talk with each other and interact with each other and learn from each other. 00;11;06;10 - 00;11;26;28 Jennifer Pegher And, because, you know, no, no two people are alike. No, no. Two cancer centers are exactly alike. So it is very helpful, to, for them to get together in our organization to be able to, to, talk through some of the challenges and solutions they have. With AACI you know, we're able to align those centers. 00;11;26;29 - 00;12;03;02 Jennifer Pegher We don't actually conduct research at AACI We serve as sort of the convening body for the cancer centers so that they can, you know, get together. And so we're able to to do this and we participate in a lot of advocacy efforts. And, we we host the Capitol Hill Day on Capitol Hill. We just had one, with our colleagues from the American Association for Cancer Research, which is, an association for researchers, but we, you know, are able to bring groups together so that they can go and advocate for cancer research on Capitol Hill. 00;12;03;04 - 00;12;17;13 Jennifer Pegher But also, you know, how the cancer centers speak with one voice, particularly to members of Congress. This is a really challenging environment right now. So being able to do that under AACI is helpful. Exactly. Thanks, Clo. 00;12;17;15 - 00;12;28;02 Community Clovia And when you do this and you're looking at the strides, Jenn, in cancer research, what is your pitch during this climate to lawmakers on Capitol Hill? 00;12;28;04 - 00;12;51;03 Jennifer Pegher Well, you know we really to lawmakers you know, we really, you know, talk about the the progress that's been made over the past 50 years, obviously. You know, the passage of the National Cancer Act really launched the war on cancer back in 1971. But, you know, we have had bipartisan support from Congress over the last many years and seen steady increases in funding. 00;12;51;03 - 00;13;19;09 Jennifer Pegher But, you know, we just need to reiterate to them that cancer research has been building momentum. You know, that mortality is declining and really that slowing it down, slowing any of that funding down right now could really mean the difference between life and death. For someone with cancer. So we have really been kind of sounding that alarm with members of Congress and, and want to, you know, ensure that they continue to support funding for cancer research. 00;13;19;11 - 00;13;22;20 Community Clovia Especially when 34%. Yes. Sure. Jump in. 00;13;22;20 - 00;13;49;06 Dr. Robert Winn Yeah, exactly. Sister Clo, you were you were just going where I was going to go. If we got 36% fewer people die from cancer right now. And that was the national investment. Just if you take your foot off the pedal, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden, ten years from now, we'll keep that 36%. It could be a world in which we, you know, start pulling back on the investment, on the national investment and start pulling back. 00;13;49;09 - 00;14;04;15 Dr. Robert Winn We're now the team that we built over the last 30 or 40 years is now dismantled. Right. And what you might wind up getting is like some of those restaurants, you know, when they start cutting corners, if you go to the restaurant, you're like, man, this restaurant is failing. And then all of a sudden they start, they're over here, right? 00;14;04;15 - 00;14;21;28 Dr. Robert Winn They start worrying about that. The minute they start doing, they start defunding and de-investing and cutting corners. And you know what happens? You go back to that restaurant. You like the food don't taste the same. What I'm saying is that the 36%, I don't take for granted that if we don't continue to make improvements, we may wind up going backwards. 00;14;21;28 - 00;14;23;04 Dr. Robert Winn And that's what I'm afraid of. 00;14;23;05 - 00;14;27;25 Community Clovia Yeah, and that's why we have shows like this. Go ahead, Jenn.. You can jump in also. 00;14;27;27 - 00;14;46;03 Jennifer Pegher Well, I was the I was just going to say, you know, doctor was absolutely right. And I think the scary thing for us is that we, you know, we may not see the effects immediately. But, you know, that this could build up and it could be, you know, devastating. We might not recover from it. So it is it is concerning. 00;14;46;10 - 00;15;05;13 Community Clovia And it's not a situation where we're trying to make people afraid. But if we have these this advocacy and if we have community engagement, and when we have these shows and if you want to know more about it, let's start with with a simple checkup. Right, Doctor Winn? Just a simple checkup. 00;15;05;15 - 00;15;28;09 Dr. Robert Winn That, you know, you got me laughing over here because, you know, you know, seeing everybody about to turn a radio show. So the podcast they checkup what should be checkups. Yeah. You know, I was just with a group of men over the weekend. And one of the things we said was that there is actually not only courage and wisdom, but a duty 00;15;28;11 - 00;15;47;15 Dr. Robert Winn If you really are serious about taking care of your body, that at least you get a checkup once a year. You know, and in fact it don't hurt you to go see the doctor or the nurse practitioner to get a general checkup once a year. You can't find a problem if you don't put yourself in a position to go see with it. 00;15;47;16 - 00;15;58;25 Dr. Robert Winn I told one brother, say he goes you know why we don't go to the doctors? I said, no, I don't. Because, well, because they may find something. Well that's they job. I mean, it's the same reason why you go to a mechanic. Aint it? 00;15;58;27 - 00;15;59;18 Community Clovia Absolutely. 00;15;59;19 - 00;16;08;08 Dr. Robert Winn You want to take, you know, so we don't make no sense. We've been talking about. Well, I don't know. Well, that's the whole thing because if you don't do it, the cancer will find you. 00;16;08;11 - 00;16;32;16 Community Clovia Yeah. And will spread. And I think it's it can be and it can be. I've learned so much with Doctor Winn and doing this show where when there was a situation with the doctor, he lost his license. Misdiagnosing people with the mammograms. Well, I was one of those patients, but Doctor Winn was like, girl go on over to Massey and get your mammogram. 00;16;32;22 - 00;16;53;28 Community Clovia If anything happened, we can. We we got you. And I've never heard anyone have conversations when it comes to cancer. Because cancer now according to Doctor Winn And as we can see with this 34% and the lives that are being saved, guess what? Cancer is slowly but surely becoming a little c. It really is. 00;16;53;29 - 00;16;54;28 Dr. Robert Winn Definitely smaller. 00;16;54;29 - 00;16;55;23 Jennifer Pegher Absolutely 00;16;55;23 - 00;16;58;02 Dr. Robert Winn It is becoming a smaller c, for sure. 00;16;58;04 - 00;17;06;08 Community Clovia This has been amazing. We're going to take another break and come on back. This is Community Conversations for Black Health Wellness podcast. 00;17;06;08 - 00;17;30;26 Community Clovia Welcome back to Community Conversations. I am Miss Community Clovia and I love staying in the lab with this show. Community Conversations, the Black Health Wellness Podcast. Jennifer Pegher is executive director of the Association of American Cancer Institutes on Cancer Research advocacy, and we also have the director of the VCU, Massey Comprehend Cancer Center, Doctor Robert Winn, joining us on the show. 00;17;31;00 - 00;17;58;24 Community Clovia And I can say it over and over. We are having discussions about cancer research, advocacy and community outreach, and we just want to talk a little bit about Ananda Lewis and, former MTV VJ. She died at the age of 52 from a long battle with, breast cancer. And Doctor Winn she shared that story in 2019. Initially you're like, hey, we can work this thing out. 00;17;58;26 - 00;18;02;09 Community Clovia But she decided to do some alternatives to that. 00;18;02;12 - 00;18;25;20 Dr. Robert Winn Yeah, you know, what I love about that, sister is that she says, honor me by telling my story of leaving this planet too early because I had rightfully chosen mistrust. Distrust, no trust of the medical community. Yeah, but when she got down to it, she actually recognized that some of that mistrust dis-trust and low trust was misplaced. 00;18;25;22 - 00;18;50;11 Dr. Robert Winn And so her cautionary tale to most sisters and most, most people, rural black folks don't matter is that, understand the history, but understand that there is something to be positive from actually engaging with the medical community, particularly when it comes to cancer. And I love her for that, because not everybody has the courage that says, let me tell you, I tried to do all of sharks. 00;18;50;13 - 00;19;08;05 Dr. Robert Winn You know, the shark oil and the Vicks VapoRub. And, there's this seed in from the mustard seed dish. I went through the Cottage grove giving, you know, alternative therapy. And at the end of the day, what she recognized was that the reason why science works is because science has to go through a rigorous review process. 00;19;08;05 - 00;19;08;12 Community Clovia Yeah. 00;19;08;18 - 00;19;11;28 Dr. Robert Winn And most of the science, not all can actually benefit you. 00;19;11;28 - 00;19;21;20 Dr. Robert Winn And then you can prove to 36% more people walking the planet, walking in the United States anyways, because of what we've been doing in cancer. So I have mad respect for Ananda Lewis. 00;19;21;23 - 00;19;22;16 Community Clovia Yes. 00;19;22;18 - 00;19;35;07 Community Clovia Absolutely. And even if you you have a diagnosis, God forbid you can do some alternatives to your diet. But whatever treatments that are available, that's good to have a team of doctors and researchers. 00;19;35;15 - 00;19;35;25 Dr. Robert Winn Yes. 00;19;35;26 - 00;19;37;13 Community Clovia Right, Dr. Winn? 00;19;37;16 - 00;19;58;27 Dr. Robert Winn Yep. That's the whole thing. We are one team and one fight. You know, we always, just like you, are fighting to improve your lives. You have doctors that are actually in laboratories that you don't know. Coming up with things actually help improve your life. And in fact, I think once we can get out of this mistrust, no trust, environment, understanding, nobody really is behind the scenes. 00;19;58;27 - 00;20;05;12 Dr. Robert Winn You're trying to figure out how to get hurt you. Most people just figured out how they can help you. And if we work as one team, we can reap the benefits. 00;20;05;12 - 00;20;25;20 Jennifer Pegher Doctor Winn always say as one team, one fight, I love it. I love that obviously, you know, the cancer centers work as teams, but they also work as teams across the country with one another. So Doctor Winn has a patient that, you know, maybe he didn't have a trial a clinical trial for that patient. He might be able to contact someone else in another part of the country. 00;20;25;20 - 00;20;46;07 Jennifer Pegher And get them seek some advice from from that other, you know, colleague. And so I think, you know, this network of cancer centers is really helpful. And it really is a team. And I think cancer centers are very unique in that, where they do work together because they want to see that their patients survive. 00;20;46;09 - 00;20;59;18 Community Clovia Well, thank you. So much. Association of American Institutes, the second executive director, and thank you, Jennifer Pegher for being here. Any closing remarks before we go, I'm going to hit you first and then follow it up with Doctor Winn. 00;20;59;23 - 00;21;00;12 Jennifer Pegher Well, Clo. 00;21;00;12 - 00;21;20;05 Jennifer Pegher Thanks for having me. I really would just say that if you know, any of their listeners have been personally impacted by cancer, that, you know, they should make sure that their members of Congress know it, it is your right to contact your member of Congress and let them know how, cancer research has benefited them or impacted their, their lives. 00;21;20;05 - 00;21;34;02 Jennifer Pegher So those stories matter. You, you know, you are their constituents. And so, you know, telling them those stories and why the investment is, is important is as needed now more than ever. Thanks for having me, Clo 00;21;34;07 - 00;21;47;07 Community Clovia Oh, Jenn, thank you so much for all of the research and all of the collaboration that you do with other cancer, researchers and institutes. Doctor Winn, you're going to help us all the way up before we go. 00;21;47;09 - 00;21;57;04 Dr. Robert Winn You know what I'm saying? I'm I'm gonna hit you up with a Bonnie Raitt song, right? Let's give them something to talk about. Yeah, we came back to to talk about that. But I will say more about the hope. That's what I. 00;21;57;07 - 00;21;58;21 Jennifer Pegher Hope. 00;21;58;23 - 00;22;03;17 Community Clovia That's good. She talk about love. But we talk about love and hope right? 00;22;03;18 - 00;22;05;18 Dr. Robert Winn That’s what I’m saying. 00;22;05;20 - 00;22;18;13 Community Clovia That's Doctor Robert Winn, director of the VCU Massey Comprehensive Cancer Center. That's going to do it for Community Conversations. The Black Health Wins podcast. I am Community Clo. Thanks for listening.