WEBVTT 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.279 The truth of the matter is that the Bible and 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:17.820 culture are frequently in conflict. Whether it's 00:00:17.820 --> 00:00:21.059 about sex or relationships or gender, I mean, 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.699 there is so much confusion in our day. And parenting 00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:28.539 a young teen or a not -so -young teen gets very 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:32.420 complex and very confusing. So today I've invited 00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:35.740 a great friend who has insight into these areas 00:00:35.740 --> 00:00:41.619 to help all of us. That's today. Welcome to this 00:00:41.619 --> 00:00:44.500 weekend edition of Living on the Edge with Chip 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:47.240 Ingram. We are an international teaching and 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.119 discipleship ministry dedicated to helping Christians 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.780 worldwide live out their faith for the glory 00:00:52.780 --> 00:00:55.719 of God and the good of all. Well, in just a minute, 00:00:55.740 --> 00:00:57.780 we'll revisit another program from our current 00:00:57.780 --> 00:01:00.640 series, Uninvited Guests. Today, you'll hear 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.880 the first half of Chip's interview with author 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.980 and apologist Sean McDowell. A few days ago, 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.579 the two shared how Christian families can navigate 00:01:08.579 --> 00:01:11.319 the chaos of today's culture and gave parents 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.159 a game plan to discuss sexuality and gender issues 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:16.640 with their kids when those conversations arise. 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:20.939 So with all that said, here's Chip. Well, I'm 00:01:20.939 --> 00:01:23.519 really excited about today's program. We've done 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.480 literally five weeks on this series we've called 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.920 Uninvited Guests, Recognizing and Resisting the 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.090 Attacks on Your Family. And as the family goes, 00:01:34.250 --> 00:01:37.769 the world goes, society goes. And people who 00:01:37.769 --> 00:01:39.989 love Jesus with all their heart are finding themselves 00:01:39.989 --> 00:01:42.930 in some really challenging times. So we've talked 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.230 about the lies that we all believe in our marriages. 00:01:46.310 --> 00:01:48.689 And if we don't recognize what they are and address 00:01:48.689 --> 00:01:51.390 them, things don't go in a good way. And we've 00:01:51.390 --> 00:01:54.069 talked about all the issues around being parents. 00:01:54.250 --> 00:01:57.530 And I think when we get down to some of the things 00:01:57.530 --> 00:02:00.519 that our kids are experiencing, I realize there's 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:03.560 people that God has placed in my life and in 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:05.439 the body of Christ that have a lot more to say 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.960 than I do. And they work very closely with the 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:11.439 next generation. And as I think of parents and 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:13.620 grandparents and fellow pastors that listen to 00:02:13.620 --> 00:02:16.479 the program, our goal is to serve you. Our goal 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:19.139 is to really help you. And some of the things 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:21.860 that your kids are facing, transgender issues, 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.060 mom and dad, hey, I think I'm gay. There was 00:02:25.060 --> 00:02:27.240 a young woman came to me after one of the services. 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.379 If you're asking me to choose what the Bible 00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:33.840 says versus giving up my friends because they're 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.439 homosexual, and of course I was telling her, 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:39.099 not give up your friends, but taking a stand 00:02:39.099 --> 00:02:41.800 about what's true and loving your friends. She 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.800 just looked at me and said, well, I'm just giving 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.199 up my faith. And so my guest today is Sean McDowell. 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.479 He's a professor at Biola, author of many books. 00:02:52.090 --> 00:02:54.729 And you're with young adults all the time. You 00:02:54.729 --> 00:02:57.509 travel, you speak. You are much more in tune 00:02:57.509 --> 00:03:00.129 with the culture that I am. I just know there's 00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:01.849 a lot of people that are hurting and need help. 00:03:01.930 --> 00:03:03.810 And that's our goal today. Well, honored to be 00:03:03.810 --> 00:03:05.689 on. Thanks for having me back. Well, it's good 00:03:05.689 --> 00:03:08.129 to have you with us. And let me just jump in 00:03:08.129 --> 00:03:10.310 because what we're going to talk about is not 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:13.270 parents that don't go to church regularly or 00:03:13.270 --> 00:03:16.689 families that are in crisis. There may be that. 00:03:17.289 --> 00:03:20.210 But people that have come into my world recently 00:03:20.210 --> 00:03:22.849 that are more committed to Christ, their marriage, 00:03:23.030 --> 00:03:26.629 raising their kids God's way, who have had these 00:03:26.629 --> 00:03:29.849 kind of situations. So, Sean, what do you say 00:03:29.849 --> 00:03:33.169 to that parent when their kid says completely 00:03:33.169 --> 00:03:36.770 out of the blue, Mom, Dad, I just want you to 00:03:36.770 --> 00:03:40.349 know I'm gay or I'm trans now. I really believe 00:03:40.349 --> 00:03:43.629 that I am a man trapped in a girl's body or vice 00:03:43.629 --> 00:03:46.280 versa. That's such a great question. It's interesting 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:48.439 you asked this, Chip, because probably about 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.319 two or three years ago, I interviewed a lady 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:54.439 by the name of Ariel Scarcella, and she describes 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:59.300 herself as the OG lesbian YouTube content creator. 00:03:59.460 --> 00:04:01.500 And she wanted to hear her story and see if we 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:03.419 could find some common ground. So I said, you 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:05.979 know, if you have any questions for a theology 00:04:05.979 --> 00:04:09.120 professor who's an evangelical, I'll give you 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:10.560 the opportunity at the end. I had no idea what 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.319 she was going to ask me. Her one question was, 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.699 myself and many in my community would want to 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:18.459 know, how would you respond if one of your kids 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:22.079 came out as gay? And I had been thinking about 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.240 this and actually made a social media post on 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.639 it like a week or two before. And I said, my 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.579 response would be, I'd say to my son or daughter, 00:04:28.699 --> 00:04:32.480 thanks for telling your dad. I can't imagine 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:34.420 how long you've been thinking about this and 00:04:34.420 --> 00:04:36.560 wrestling with this and probably have some fear 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.480 about how your dad would respond given who I 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:43.230 am. positions that I hold. I want you to know 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:45.810 that I love you no matter what. This doesn't 00:04:45.810 --> 00:04:48.290 change that I'm your dad, you're my son, my daughter. 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:51.009 I love you and we're in this together for the 00:04:51.009 --> 00:04:54.129 long haul. Interestingly enough, she said something 00:04:54.129 --> 00:04:56.290 in effect of, she goes, wow, that was beautiful. 00:04:56.449 --> 00:04:57.709 When this is out, I'm going to share it with 00:04:57.709 --> 00:05:01.370 my community. And she shared the link. Now, one 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:04.829 thing I would say to parents is if you haven't 00:05:04.829 --> 00:05:06.250 responded that way and you're like, you know 00:05:06.250 --> 00:05:09.069 what? I wish I had heard that a while ago. Give 00:05:09.069 --> 00:05:13.550 yourself some grace. We absolutely need biblical 00:05:13.550 --> 00:05:16.990 fidelity and we need truth. I would never question 00:05:16.990 --> 00:05:20.310 that. But on this issue, give yourself some grace. 00:05:20.490 --> 00:05:25.310 So if your kid comes to you and says, I'm bi, 00:05:25.529 --> 00:05:30.490 I'm gay, I'm trans, I'm fill in the blank, your 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:33.269 first thought cannot be, what did I do wrong? 00:05:33.410 --> 00:05:37.180 How did I fail him? Give yourself some grace. 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:41.100 I think there's a lot of reasons why we can blame 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:44.639 ourselves. Some could be bad theology sometimes 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.199 in the church that says, if I just do A, B, and 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.920 C as a parent, I'm going to get this product 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.800 of a kid who will follow the Lord. And that's 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.639 just bad theology. It doesn't work that way. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.079 People have free will. It could be some of our 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.519 own sinfulness and our pride of our kids being 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.600 a certain way because they represent us. And 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.980 there can be a lot of things going on. But bottom 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:10.699 line is give yourself some grace. Don't blame 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:15.980 yourself. Just love on your kid and take a long 00:06:15.980 --> 00:06:20.680 -term perspective and assure them early on that 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.339 you're going to stand by them and love them as 00:06:22.339 --> 00:06:25.480 Jesus did. That's kind of step number one. compassion 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.339 has to be number one how do you move from the 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:31.920 first step of compassion not blaming yourself 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:36.019 or focusing inward to where do we go from here 00:06:36.019 --> 00:06:38.500 i think the next step is just to ask a lot of 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:42.430 questions and to listen To highlight what you 00:06:42.430 --> 00:06:45.009 said before, if a kid comes out to you at 12, 00:06:45.350 --> 00:06:49.529 that's very different than one at 18 or 24 for 00:06:49.529 --> 00:06:52.829 so many different reasons. Yes. Our authority, 00:06:53.089 --> 00:06:55.769 they're still living in the home. There's just 00:06:55.769 --> 00:06:59.240 different dynamics at play there. But I would 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.740 just ask a lot of questions and make sure it's 00:07:02.740 --> 00:07:05.060 the right environment. Sometimes kids have been 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:07.899 thinking about this for weeks or months or years. 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.839 Yes. Sometimes parents suspect it and see it 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:13.540 coming. Sometimes it's just dropped out of the 00:07:13.540 --> 00:07:17.600 blue. So it's fair to just say, you know what? 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.139 You've probably been thinking about this for 00:07:19.139 --> 00:07:23.660 a while. This is new to me. And I think it might 00:07:23.660 --> 00:07:25.680 take your mom and I a little bit to process and 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:28.649 figure out how to navigate this. And what that 00:07:28.649 --> 00:07:30.910 looks like, I don't know what it all means, but 00:07:30.910 --> 00:07:32.990 I know I love you. I know I'm committed to you. 00:07:33.029 --> 00:07:34.670 I know I want to do the right thing, be the best 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:38.649 parent to you that I can. That's completely reasonable 00:07:38.649 --> 00:07:42.329 to share and say, but before I say anything, 00:07:42.449 --> 00:07:45.970 tell me, when did you first feel this way? Have 00:07:45.970 --> 00:07:49.470 you told anybody else? How did they respond? 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:53.009 How did you think we were going to respond as 00:07:53.009 --> 00:07:55.750 your parents? In your mind, just so we understand, 00:07:55.930 --> 00:07:59.269 what do you think it looks like for us to love 00:07:59.269 --> 00:08:02.810 you? Does this affect the way you think about 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:06.110 Jesus and following after him? And at the end, 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:08.709 your last question can be, I'm out of questions. 00:08:08.829 --> 00:08:11.089 Is there anything I should have asked you? Is 00:08:11.089 --> 00:08:13.470 there anything else you want to tell me? And 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:16.350 just affirm that we have an open door here, and 00:08:16.350 --> 00:08:18.790 I'd love it if we stay on the same page moving 00:08:18.790 --> 00:08:21.689 forward. I mean, I could think of 100 questions. 00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:24.730 But I'm just going to listen and listen and try 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:27.389 to understand where this young person is. Because 00:08:27.389 --> 00:08:31.230 this young person might be saying, I'm gay. And 00:08:31.230 --> 00:08:34.610 if you don't affirm me, you're out. That's a 00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:37.669 very different conversation than I have same 00:08:37.669 --> 00:08:39.870 -sex attraction. I don't know to do this. And 00:08:39.870 --> 00:08:43.549 I want to follow Jesus and follow what the Bible 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.210 says. Like that's just a very different dynamic. 00:08:46.990 --> 00:08:49.210 And so I want to figure out where the kid is. 00:08:49.909 --> 00:08:52.210 You know, in the Bible, we have 340 questions 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:55.929 that Jesus asked in the Gospels and Acts. And 00:08:55.929 --> 00:08:59.830 in Paul's letters, there's 262. Wow. There's 00:08:59.830 --> 00:09:03.330 something powerful about questions. I had one 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:05.789 set of parents do something. I don't know if 00:09:05.789 --> 00:09:07.570 they got it from a counselor, but it was very, 00:09:07.629 --> 00:09:10.029 very effective because there was a lot of resistance 00:09:10.029 --> 00:09:12.049 and there was a lot of, are you going to try 00:09:12.049 --> 00:09:14.490 and talk me out of this? And the parents said, 00:09:14.610 --> 00:09:19.259 can we have scheduled each week? An hour of safe 00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:22.440 space. Wow. It's just a safe space. I get to 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.519 ask you anything. You can ask me anything. I'm 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:28.779 not going to try to convince you, but I really 00:09:28.779 --> 00:09:32.000 want to understand. It's just a safe time. And 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:34.960 it was like, what's the logic behind this? And 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.200 if this is true, what does this have to do with 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.740 Jesus and your faith? And it was really interesting 00:09:39.740 --> 00:09:43.679 that that built a level of understanding. That 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.639 doesn't mean everything is great. But it really 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:51.139 did allow a sense of being honored. I care. I 00:09:51.139 --> 00:09:54.700 respect you. But, Sean, what do you say to that 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:57.940 parent? I have done that. That's the journey 00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:02.340 that we're on. But I have a fairly hostile, maybe 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:05.320 even a bit militant son or daughter that basically 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:09.200 says, look, I'm gay. I'm trans. This is who I 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.879 am. If you don't accept me, you don't love me. 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:15.759 You're wrong. And you're out of my life. And 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.259 now you see parents at a real crossroads where 00:10:18.259 --> 00:10:22.779 either they don't know what to do or they assume 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:24.840 all the blame. And I've seen a lot of parents 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:29.019 change their theology based on the response of 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:32.620 their children or they've returned kind of anger 00:10:32.620 --> 00:10:35.779 for anger. And you just have this great divide. 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:40.120 How do you maintain that biblical fidelity? I'd 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.139 like to say it's only a few. There are thousands 00:10:43.139 --> 00:10:45.100 and thousands of people in the midst of this 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:47.620 right now. So I appreciate that you said maintain 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:52.460 your theology. I have been to affirming conferences. 00:10:52.700 --> 00:10:57.279 I've read almost all of the books. And behind 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.419 almost all the stories, there's almost always 00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:03.919 a relationship that is there. My son came out 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:08.039 as gay. My sister came out as a lesbian. my spouse, 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:11.840 my fill in the blank. And part of me on a human 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.759 level, like I get it. These are people we love 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:17.500 and we care for and we've sacrificed for. And 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:19.840 I know so many moms and dads were like, I just 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.320 want to be in a relationship with my kid. It 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:27.059 pains me. But Jesus is really clear in John 14. 00:11:27.139 --> 00:11:31.960 If you love me, you'll obey my commands. From 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:35.840 Genesis to the end. The Bible's very clear that 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:38.879 God's design for sex and marriage is one man 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:43.279 and one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. And so 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:46.899 it might not feel like it in the moment, but 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:51.879 holding firm to what the Bible teaches is the 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:55.600 loving thing to do. Absolutely, it's a loving 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:57.500 thing to do. Now, how you navigate the relationships 00:11:57.500 --> 00:11:59.440 and when it means to share that knot, that's 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:02.269 where wisdom comes in. But my first thing to 00:12:02.269 --> 00:12:04.029 say to parents is time out. If you're tempted 00:12:04.029 --> 00:12:07.669 to compromise your theology, that is not biblical. 00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:11.629 That is not loving. That is really not helpful 00:12:11.629 --> 00:12:15.009 when it's all said and done. One value of now 00:12:15.009 --> 00:12:18.769 doing ministry for 40 years is I've watched multiple 00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:21.730 times where people, quote, cave in, change their 00:12:21.730 --> 00:12:25.830 theology. It's okay. And in the short term, it 00:12:25.830 --> 00:12:30.879 provides relief. In the long term. It provides 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:36.480 pain and regret and devastation and hurt. And 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.960 what parents don't seem to be able to get is 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.940 there are times where our loyalty is challenged. 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.720 And is our loyalty to Jesus higher than our loyalty 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:52.580 to a son, a daughter, or a mate even? I've sat 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:55.460 with people who, you know, my brother came out. 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:57.940 My brothers and sisters, my parents now have 00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:00.559 changed their theology. I'm the outlier now. 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:04.080 I'm the bad person in the family who's held to 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.820 a biblical ethic. I've been kind to my brother. 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.519 I've reached out to my brother. But this is my 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:12.820 world. There is a price to pay for loyalty to 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:16.500 Jesus. It's interesting. I just providentially 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:20.440 had a conversation yesterday with a father who's 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:22.980 Daughter came out as gay many years ago, got 00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:26.379 married, adopted kids. Her mate became an alcoholic. 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:29.860 That relationship didn't work out. But every 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:32.759 time there's been a crisis, it's so interesting. 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.220 She comes to the one person that has kept their 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:39.940 convictions and loved her regardless, but was 00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:43.690 unwilling to. bend his theology or change his 00:13:43.690 --> 00:13:46.409 thinking. So he's been sort of the bad person 00:13:46.409 --> 00:13:50.090 in some early years, and now he's that one person 00:13:50.090 --> 00:13:52.649 you can trust. You know, when we hurt really 00:13:52.649 --> 00:13:55.450 badly, we're looking for someone that we can 00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:58.669 really trust who doesn't kind of blow with the 00:13:58.669 --> 00:14:01.409 wind in terms of their view of things. Any words 00:14:01.409 --> 00:14:04.610 of wisdom for that person who's taking a stand 00:14:04.610 --> 00:14:09.100 and really struggling with maintaining it? Oh, 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.139 gosh. First off, I would just say I get it. I 00:14:12.139 --> 00:14:15.600 understand because of what's at stake. I would 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.799 find solace in other believers who are doing 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.220 the same thing. Sometimes we feel like when we're 00:14:21.220 --> 00:14:26.580 doing stuff alone, it's just so painful. But 00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:30.159 one of my encouragements to really to anybody. 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:33.879 who is experiencing same -sex attraction, doesn't 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:36.080 know how to navigate this, is to point towards 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:41.000 people who are faithfully following Jesus, whether 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.799 as singles or as married to somebody of the opposite 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:49.679 sex. People like Christopher Yuan, Sam Albury, 00:14:49.899 --> 00:14:53.039 Rachel Gilson. I mean, I could go on and on with 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:55.179 people who've been open about same -sex attraction 00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:57.779 saying, I didn't choose this. I don't exactly 00:14:57.779 --> 00:15:00.789 know why. It's part of my experience of life, 00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:04.149 but I'm going to stay faithful and still follow 00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:07.870 Jesus. Those are examples I want to point to 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:10.769 who doesn't know that they can do this faithfully. 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:14.850 Now, if I may, to your question before, the parent 00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.309 who's struggling with a kid who just says, if 00:15:17.309 --> 00:15:20.429 you don't affirm, you're out. And I've had these 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:24.470 conversations. I think my principle is I want 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:26.629 to be in my life. And I'm not saying I always 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:28.549 do this, Chip. This is my principle I strive 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:32.850 for. I want to be as gracious as I can be without 00:15:32.850 --> 00:15:36.629 violating scripture or my conscience before the 00:15:36.629 --> 00:15:41.090 Lord. So this parent just has to ask, what hills 00:15:41.090 --> 00:15:45.669 am I dying on and why? Am I being as gracious 00:15:45.669 --> 00:15:48.629 as I can be towards my child? So as painful as 00:15:48.629 --> 00:15:52.169 it is, I can put my head on my pillow at night 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:55.389 and just say, God, I trust you. I'm acting a 00:15:55.389 --> 00:15:58.289 way that I think is loving, but I'm sticking 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:01.730 with what your word says is true. And sometimes 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:04.529 I've seen parents die on the wrong hills. Yes. 00:16:04.690 --> 00:16:07.750 We won't even meet my son and his boyfriend for 00:16:07.750 --> 00:16:09.350 dinner because I don't want to affirm that. I'm 00:16:09.350 --> 00:16:11.610 like, you know, for me, I don't think having 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.090 dinner with somebody means you're affirming that. 00:16:14.610 --> 00:16:17.759 I wouldn't interpret it that way. Staying overnight 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.059 in the same room in your home. Now we're getting 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:22.620 a lot closer to hills that I would die on and 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:24.779 you've got to figure out what they are. Really 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:27.100 what happens in a lot of these circumstances 00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:30.899 is it just causes a lot of soul searching and 00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:34.559 it's painful for parents. And sometimes it can 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.299 service our own insecurities and our weaknesses. 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.220 And I just encourage parents to go before the 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:43.559 Lord and say, help me be as gracious as I can 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.899 be. Die on the right hills and just love my child 00:16:46.899 --> 00:16:49.620 through this. Well, every situation certainly 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:52.779 has its own dynamic. And the reality is you need 00:16:52.779 --> 00:16:55.559 to have a conviction from God's word and the 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:58.139 Holy Spirit that you're standing on, not what 00:16:58.139 --> 00:17:00.919 so -and -so thinks. Because at the end of the 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:03.519 day, we all have this moment where we stand before 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.740 God on. What did we do with all the things that 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.140 came in our life? And we need to make those on 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:13.200 the basis of what our convictions are before 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.359 the Lord. Shifting a little bit, let's say a 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:19.240 kid goes to a really good Bible teaching church, 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:22.900 and they've heard this is what's true, marriage 00:17:22.900 --> 00:17:25.980 is one man, one woman, but they personally start 00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:28.559 questioning some things, and they start going 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:33.809 down a path. It seems to me that those kind of 00:17:33.809 --> 00:17:36.849 kids with those kind of struggles have a very 00:17:36.849 --> 00:17:40.230 difficult time unless the church and parents 00:17:40.230 --> 00:17:45.170 and youth leaders have a sensitivity to creating 00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:48.029 some safe environments where they can have conversations 00:17:48.029 --> 00:17:51.170 that honestly can be of great help. But if it's 00:17:51.170 --> 00:17:53.990 not safe, they can get pretty hardened in their 00:17:53.990 --> 00:17:56.269 views thinking, well, I know I'm going to be 00:17:56.269 --> 00:17:59.700 rejected. And so what do you say to maybe churches 00:17:59.700 --> 00:18:04.220 or youth pastors or even parents about a culture 00:18:04.220 --> 00:18:09.059 where instead of this one event that a bomb's 00:18:09.059 --> 00:18:12.019 ready to explode inside of a kid's heart, you 00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:15.119 create a world where the beginning doubts could 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:17.420 be addressed and open conversations could be 00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:19.440 had? I think there's some overlap, but it can 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:22.059 also look different in a church than it can in 00:18:22.059 --> 00:18:25.410 the home. Yeah. I've done pretty extensive research 00:18:25.410 --> 00:18:28.930 on the studies of why kids leave the faith or 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:31.930 the church that they're raised in. And there 00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:34.849 was a study, it's about a decade old now, Oxford 00:18:34.849 --> 00:18:38.049 University Press book, Faith and Families by 00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:42.250 a USC professor, Vern Bengston. It was with 3 00:18:42.250 --> 00:18:47.440 ,500 people, 35 years, four generations. And 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:50.119 they said the number one factor on kid adopting 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:53.900 the faith of his family and his parents, regardless 00:18:53.900 --> 00:18:58.200 of what that faith is, is a quote, warm relationship 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.240 with the father. And when you hear like warm 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.579 relationship in a scholarly book, I was like, 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:06.259 what do you mean warm relationship? It means 00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:10.119 a sense of intimacy and closeness. That starts 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:15.670 on day one. And so long before this kid is wrestling 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:19.750 with issues of sexuality or their beliefs about 00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:23.990 it, am I spending time with my kids? Am I listening 00:19:23.990 --> 00:19:26.589 to them? Am I building a closeness with them? 00:19:27.130 --> 00:19:30.289 That's number one. And then just create a culture 00:19:30.289 --> 00:19:32.190 in your home where you can talk about stuff. 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:35.390 One of the brilliant things my dad did, Chip, 00:19:35.410 --> 00:19:40.079 is he had practiced how he would respond if myself 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:43.539 or my three sisters said, dad, I'm gay, dad, 00:19:43.619 --> 00:19:45.500 I'm pregnant, dad, I'm dropping out of school, 00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:48.740 whatever it is. And he had just practiced his 00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:52.220 response ahead of time and built relationships 00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:55.980 with us, anticipating if something like that 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:57.900 happened, he could respond with grace. And I 00:19:57.900 --> 00:20:01.099 thought, what great foresight. You know, the 00:20:01.099 --> 00:20:03.119 other thing in the home is if you want your kids 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:06.700 to talk to you about this, You've got to develop 00:20:06.700 --> 00:20:09.579 kind of a talking, conversing relationship where 00:20:09.579 --> 00:20:11.559 you just talk with them about things that are 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.720 important to them, talk to them about life, just 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.319 talk and talk, including spiritual things. It's 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.900 not a one -way conversation where I just lecture 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:24.940 my kids. They're not going to open up to you. 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:29.089 So build that relationship, start early. converse 00:20:29.089 --> 00:20:31.569 over the dinner table about spiritual things, 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:34.789 but just life, movies, sports, drama, whatever 00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:38.170 the kids are into. I had a young man, this is 00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:41.829 a few years ago now, come out to me and I said, 00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:44.470 why am I the first person that you came out to? 00:20:44.589 --> 00:20:46.410 Why haven't you told your parents? And he said, 00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:48.609 I just heard some statements they made now and 00:20:48.609 --> 00:20:51.670 then that I think are homophobic, just comments 00:20:51.670 --> 00:20:55.009 about the news, about people, about individuals. 00:20:55.130 --> 00:20:59.170 And he remembers those. So we got to watch the 00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:02.309 way we speak. You know, I've got three kids, 00:21:02.349 --> 00:21:04.789 so I'll generalize this. But over the years, 00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:07.529 I've heard my kids say terms they've picked up 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:10.490 on the playground about someone. I go, you know, 00:21:10.490 --> 00:21:13.269 we just don't speak about people that way. They're 00:21:13.269 --> 00:21:17.690 made in God's image. Let's not use that language. 00:21:17.789 --> 00:21:21.170 God loves them just like he loves you and me. 00:21:22.009 --> 00:21:23.890 And I want to instill in my kids that if they 00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:25.769 ever are wrestling with that question, they feel 00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.309 like, oh, dad's got my back. So those are a few 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:31.890 things in the home I think you can do. I'm somewhat 00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:33.890 torn, like I'm in a classroom and I want a safe 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:37.029 place, but I don't. I tell my students, come 00:21:37.029 --> 00:21:38.609 to office hours. Tell me what you think. I'll 00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:41.130 listen to you. If I disagree, I might push back, 00:21:41.230 --> 00:21:43.029 but I want to understand and have a conversation. 00:21:43.329 --> 00:21:45.069 I'm no interest in having an argument. Please 00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:47.089 come talk with me if you differ. Like I say that 00:21:47.089 --> 00:21:49.319 over and over again. But I don't want so much 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:51.440 a safe space where I can't challenge them and 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.259 make them think and make them a little uncomfortable 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.640 because that's when you learn. So there's a balance 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:58.160 there where you want some tension to learn, but 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:01.059 you want people to know I love you and I care 00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:04.339 about you no matter what you believe when it's 00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:07.940 all said and done. In the church, churches have 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:10.400 to have a doctrinal statement. Yes. They need 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.539 to have a statement, not just on this issue, 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.000 but this is one of the big issues of the day. 00:22:15.579 --> 00:22:17.980 I was reading, Chip, about someone who went to 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:20.519 a church for a while and didn't even know what 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.420 the church believed about LGBTQ issues until 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:26.279 like two or three years into it and felt like 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:29.220 she was kind of betrayed because they presented 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:31.740 a certain way and didn't believe that. And I 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:34.039 thought, you know what? We got to have a statement. 00:22:34.180 --> 00:22:37.259 The staff needs to know, like, what's our bathroom 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:40.059 policy? What's our pronoun policy? What's our 00:22:40.059 --> 00:22:42.180 policy of going to same -sex weddings? Like, 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:43.960 you just have to think these things through as 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:48.460 a staff. and be on the same page about it. And 00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:50.279 the staff's going to need some training. A lot 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:53.160 of people don't have time to work through content 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.680 and learn what the Bible says and why. Most people 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:58.579 growing up in the church know what the church 00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:01.059 believes and the Bible says, but they don't know 00:23:01.059 --> 00:23:04.680 why. They don't actually have convictions about 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.279 it that run deep. So church's doctrinal statements, 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.109 they need to teach on this. But why God's design 00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:15.809 for marriage is good for the world, good for 00:23:15.809 --> 00:23:21.250 society, good for kids, that why is something 00:23:21.250 --> 00:23:28.119 churches have to do. This is Living on the Edge 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:30.440 with Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.619 the first half of Chip's insightful conversation 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:35.660 with best -selling author and Christian apologist, 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:38.640 Sean McDowell. To learn more about any of the 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:42.099 resources you heard about today, visit livingontheedge 00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:47.619 .org. That's livingontheedge .org. Well, as we 00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:49.799 wrap up, I want to remind you that this ministry 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:52.099 depends on the faithful support of listeners 00:23:52.099 --> 00:23:55.579 just like you. Your generosity will help us continue 00:23:55.579 --> 00:23:58.359 to motivate Christians to really live like Christians. 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:00.759 And right now, for those who choose to become 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.500 monthly partners, we'll send you our newest resource, 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:06.819 The Marriage That Works Truth Cards, as our way 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:10.000 of saying thank you. To learn more, go to livingontheedge 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:16.839 .org or call 888 -333 -6003. That's 888 -333 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:23.259 -6003 or visit livingontheedge .org. App listeners 00:24:23.259 --> 00:24:26.079 tap donate. And thanks in advance for doing whatever 00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.940 the Lord leads you to do. You've been listening 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:31.119 to a selected program that we wanted to share 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.799 from this past week. To hear more from Chip's 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:37.039 series, Uninvited Guests, Recognizing and Resisting 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:40.119 the Attacks on Your Family, go to livingontheedge 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.900 .org or wherever you listen to podcasts. Until 00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:46.500 next time, I'm Dave Drewy saying thanks for listening 00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.240 to this weekend edition of Living on the Edge.