WEBVTT 00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:14.019 Picture this. A close friend asks you to meet 00:00:14.019 --> 00:00:16.359 them for coffee, and after catching up for a 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:18.559 little while, they lean in and quietly admit, 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:21.019 You know, I've been wanting to talk to you because 00:00:21.019 --> 00:00:23.739 I'm having a lot of doubts about whether Christianity 00:00:23.739 --> 00:00:26.739 is the way for me. I mean, how can I know the 00:00:26.739 --> 00:00:29.199 Bible is true and that Jesus really loves me? 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.710 Will you help me? I'm not sure what to do. Well, 00:00:32.729 --> 00:00:35.250 let me tell you, that scenario is all too real 00:00:35.250 --> 00:00:37.729 for many believers who've had that close friend 00:00:37.729 --> 00:00:40.829 or maybe even a child share those honest feelings 00:00:40.829 --> 00:00:43.210 from their heart. And when those moments come 00:00:43.210 --> 00:00:45.829 up, that's a perfect opportunity for you to step 00:00:45.829 --> 00:00:48.770 up and support them. So coming up on this weekend 00:00:48.770 --> 00:00:51.250 edition of Living on the Edge, we'll help you 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:54.030 talk to and care for those wrestling with their 00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:56.810 faith. I'm Dave Drew. And a few days ago, we 00:00:56.810 --> 00:00:59.530 wrapped up our series Dealing with Doubts. But 00:00:59.530 --> 00:01:01.450 today we wanted to highlight Chip's insightful 00:01:01.450 --> 00:01:04.409 conversation from this past week with best -selling 00:01:04.409 --> 00:01:06.909 author and prominent Christian apologist Sean 00:01:06.909 --> 00:01:09.750 McDowell. The two discussed the subject of doubt 00:01:09.750 --> 00:01:12.269 as Chip opened up about a heartbreaking conversation 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:14.989 he once had with his son who was in the middle 00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:18.209 of a faith crisis. So with that, here's Chip 00:01:18.209 --> 00:01:22.189 to get us started. We spent the last month talking 00:01:22.189 --> 00:01:25.030 about we all have doubts, we all have struggles, 00:01:25.109 --> 00:01:27.890 and of course those that are parents and grandparents, 00:01:28.150 --> 00:01:31.060 pastors, The next generation is certainly near 00:01:31.060 --> 00:01:33.659 and dear to our heart. And so as I was praying 00:01:33.659 --> 00:01:36.760 this through, I thought, who could I invite that 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:39.359 works with young people that really is connected 00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:42.340 to what's really going on to say, hey, could 00:01:42.340 --> 00:01:46.099 you help us really understand what's going on 00:01:46.099 --> 00:01:48.719 in the lives, especially of younger people and 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.739 where their struggles are, where their doubts. 00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:53.459 And so I want to welcome Sean McDowell. Great 00:01:53.459 --> 00:01:55.780 to have you with us. Chip, this is such a treat. 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:57.879 I've been looking forward to this. Well, thanks 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.040 for being with us. I did not grow up as a follower 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.859 of Christ, and I was a skeptic. And your dad's 00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:07.099 book, More Than a Carpenter and then Evidence 00:02:07.099 --> 00:02:10.219 That Demands a Verdict, were ones that I poured 00:02:10.219 --> 00:02:13.219 over and like, could this really be true in my 00:02:13.219 --> 00:02:16.360 kind of young struggle? So it's great to have 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:18.460 you with us. And maybe tell us, I know you're 00:02:18.460 --> 00:02:21.120 a professor at Biola. I have watched your podcast. 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:23.759 Give me just a little bit of your background 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.560 and your heart and why you do what you do. Yeah, 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:29.319 I grew up in a small town in San Diego, even 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:31.860 though my parents were missionaries and still 00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:35.199 are with crew. I had no intention of becoming 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.419 an apologist, being a professor, or following 00:02:37.419 --> 00:02:40.039 in my dad's footsteps. At one point, I thought 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:42.300 I was going into politics. Another time, a lawyer. 00:02:42.580 --> 00:02:44.979 I thought I was going to play in the NBA, probably 00:02:44.979 --> 00:02:47.479 in junior high. Like, I just had no intention 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:50.620 of going into this for a lot of reasons. Really, 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:52.740 one thing that shifted, there's a few pieces 00:02:52.740 --> 00:02:55.930 of this story, but my senior year at Biola, I 00:02:55.930 --> 00:02:58.169 had a class with J .P. Moreland, who's still 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:00.430 to this day one of the leading philosophers, 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:02.629 not just Christian philosophers, in the world 00:03:02.629 --> 00:03:05.729 on the philosophy of mind. And it was on apologetics. 00:03:05.889 --> 00:03:07.430 And I thought, well, this will be easy. I grew 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:10.509 up in an apologetics family. I had no idea when 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:12.729 I was stepping into CHIP because my dad, like 00:03:12.729 --> 00:03:15.030 you mentioned, the two books, More than a Carpenter, 00:03:15.090 --> 00:03:17.110 Evidence to Man's Verdict, those are historical 00:03:17.110 --> 00:03:21.509 apologetics. JP does philosophical apologetics, 00:03:21.569 --> 00:03:24.469 the argument from consciousness, intelligent 00:03:24.469 --> 00:03:27.969 design. I heard this stuff and was like, whoa, 00:03:28.189 --> 00:03:31.550 this is so interesting. And so ended up wanting 00:03:31.550 --> 00:03:33.050 to become, I wanted to work with students. I 00:03:33.050 --> 00:03:35.960 got that love from my parents. And I thought, 00:03:36.020 --> 00:03:38.080 you know, I could teach in a youth ministry program, 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:40.280 but you only get students an hour or two a week. 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:41.939 I'm going to teach at a Christian school, have 00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:43.800 students three hours a week, get weekends and 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.020 summers off to speak and write. And for 21 years, 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.580 full -time and part -time, I've been teaching 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:51.819 Bible. And this is the first year I'm actually 00:03:51.819 --> 00:03:54.840 not doing it part -time. I'm a full -time apologetics 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.900 professor. So I guess to sum it up, I'm a communicator. 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:00.479 I have a YouTube channel. I'm on Instagram. I 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.500 write books. I speak and teach. And my heart 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:07.270 is— evangelism apologetics equipping and reaching 00:04:07.270 --> 00:04:09.810 the next generation. I'm going to just jump right 00:04:09.810 --> 00:04:12.590 in because we've covered some of the intellectual 00:04:12.590 --> 00:04:16.410 issues, emotional issues, everything from does 00:04:16.410 --> 00:04:19.410 Christianity work? Is it believable? But one 00:04:19.410 --> 00:04:21.649 of the things we wanted to frame everything around 00:04:21.649 --> 00:04:25.089 was this whole idea of doubt. And some people 00:04:25.089 --> 00:04:27.350 think that any doubt you might have about God 00:04:27.350 --> 00:04:30.870 or his word is negative. But from your perspective, 00:04:31.069 --> 00:04:33.769 what's the role of doubt? How does that play 00:04:33.769 --> 00:04:37.310 out in the development of our faith? I'm a natural 00:04:37.310 --> 00:04:39.750 doubter, Chip. I doubt everything. If I buy a 00:04:39.750 --> 00:04:41.269 car, I'm like, well, maybe I should have bought 00:04:41.269 --> 00:04:42.870 in this car. If I go on a vacation, I'm like, 00:04:42.910 --> 00:04:44.529 well, maybe I could have got a better deal. I 00:04:44.529 --> 00:04:47.589 just doubt everything. I think I'm wired that 00:04:47.589 --> 00:04:50.850 way. And I have a pastor friend years ago who 00:04:50.850 --> 00:04:53.810 I think has the gift of faith. And at this point, 00:04:53.829 --> 00:04:55.730 he lost his job, was looking for another one. 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:57.860 And I'm like, hey, what are you going to do? 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.199 And he's like, you know what? God is going to 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.279 provide. And I'm like, how do you know? Maybe 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:02.920 God wants you to suffer. And he just looks at 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:04.800 me. He's like, Sean, God's going to provide. 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:07.779 Don't worry. And I remember like looking at that 00:05:07.779 --> 00:05:11.060 going, man, why don't I have that faith? And 00:05:11.060 --> 00:05:13.139 it hit me sometime later. I thought, you know 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:16.600 what? If I had that kind of gift of faith as 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:21.220 he did, I wouldn't write 700 page books defending 00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:24.439 the truth of Christianity. I wouldn't do a PhD 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.620 dissertation. tracing down the stories of whether 00:05:27.620 --> 00:05:30.160 or not the apostles died as martyrs to see if 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:33.019 we could trust their testimony. It's doubts that 00:05:33.019 --> 00:05:35.560 drive me to ask questions, drive me to go in. 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:38.399 So my friend needs me to do this and I need his 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:41.160 strength of faith. So people are going to have 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.639 different kinds and levels of doubt. Now in our 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:46.709 age of social media, I really don't know how 00:05:46.709 --> 00:05:49.829 anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. I don't 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:52.750 know how it's possible with so many smart people 00:05:52.750 --> 00:05:55.889 who have, for lack of a better term, ministries 00:05:55.889 --> 00:05:59.209 all over TikTok, all over YouTube, all over trying 00:05:59.209 --> 00:06:03.389 to evangelize and disciple people out of their 00:06:03.389 --> 00:06:05.730 faith. I don't know how everybody doesn't at 00:06:05.730 --> 00:06:08.329 least have some doubt. But one key point I would 00:06:08.329 --> 00:06:11.170 make that's really important, doubt is not the 00:06:11.170 --> 00:06:15.899 opposite of faith. Unbelief is. You can believe 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:20.040 something and have doubts. In a sense, to have 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.439 doubt is just to not be 100 % certain that something 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.300 is true. Right. But it's important we don't assume 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:29.339 doubt is unbelief, which is why I think Jude 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:33.720 22 says, have mercy on those who doubt. It can 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:36.779 be painful. It can be difficult. It can be an 00:06:36.779 --> 00:06:40.060 existential crisis, which I, in part, went through. 00:06:40.649 --> 00:06:42.509 So last thing I'll say in this is when my students 00:06:42.509 --> 00:06:44.089 often say to me, you know, I'm having doubts 00:06:44.089 --> 00:06:46.670 or questions, I'll respond by saying, good for 00:06:46.670 --> 00:06:49.170 you. I just want to let them know, okay, you 00:06:49.170 --> 00:06:51.389 realize this matters. And you use your mind, 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:54.189 you're asking questions. Let's dig in and see 00:06:54.189 --> 00:06:56.670 if we can figure this out. That is so helpful. 00:06:57.389 --> 00:07:01.029 Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief 00:07:01.029 --> 00:07:03.670 is. I don't think most people think of it like 00:07:03.670 --> 00:07:06.810 that. I remember I didn't grow up as a follower 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:09.800 of Christ right after high school. trusted Christ, 00:07:10.139 --> 00:07:13.000 got involved in a discipleship ministry. And 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.079 then I really had a hunger for God. And then 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.040 I decided one summer, mostly so I could play 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.019 in a summer basketball league and be ready for 00:07:21.019 --> 00:07:23.240 the next year of college basketball. It really 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.800 wasn't about school, but I stayed on campus. 00:07:26.060 --> 00:07:29.040 And I remember something happened. It was just 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:33.439 a flash of, what if this isn't true? What if 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.990 this is just some... college emotional experience. 00:07:37.110 --> 00:07:40.110 God really changed my life, my relationships. 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:44.709 And so I had this experiential reality. And then 00:07:44.709 --> 00:07:48.569 I had, looking back, probably extreme spiritual 00:07:48.569 --> 00:07:52.350 warfare. But it was like darts of, you're deluded. 00:07:52.550 --> 00:07:57.230 You're crazy. None of this is true. And I went 00:07:57.230 --> 00:08:00.129 through a summer without emotional connection 00:08:00.129 --> 00:08:03.050 to God, if you know what I mean. Wow. And choosing 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:06.959 to say, What's it look like to trust God when 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.220 all these thoughts are going into my mind and 00:08:10.220 --> 00:08:13.399 I don't know what to do with them? Anyway, any 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:17.600 insight on that person who is saying, I don't 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.139 know if this is true? Well, one point I want 00:08:20.139 --> 00:08:22.160 to make is I want to compare and contrast your 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.100 story with the person in the Bible who we associate 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:28.800 with doubt, namely Thomas. Thomas didn't say, 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:30.959 gosh, I have questions. I'm not sure. I'm wrestling 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:33.789 with this. I don't know. Thomas said, I will 00:08:33.789 --> 00:08:37.450 not believe unless I see and touch the nail marks 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:40.809 in his hand and in his side. We equate doubt 00:08:40.809 --> 00:08:45.029 with total rejection of the faith. That's what 00:08:45.029 --> 00:08:47.669 we have to reframe. You had an experience of 00:08:47.669 --> 00:08:50.970 doubt. Not I reject this. I will not believe, 00:08:51.049 --> 00:08:53.370 period, unless you prove it to me empirically. 00:08:54.090 --> 00:08:55.929 So some of the way we approach this, I think, 00:08:55.929 --> 00:08:58.490 needs to be reshifted. I had a similar experience 00:08:58.490 --> 00:09:00.350 as you, Chip. And for me, interestingly enough, 00:09:00.389 --> 00:09:02.350 I was also playing college basketball. I didn't 00:09:02.350 --> 00:09:03.809 know you were a college basketball player. We 00:09:03.809 --> 00:09:06.830 have to have that conversation sometime. And 00:09:06.830 --> 00:09:10.070 I was at Biola, of all places, mid -90s. And 00:09:10.070 --> 00:09:12.289 I got online and started fishing around trying 00:09:12.289 --> 00:09:14.169 to figure out what this internet thing was and 00:09:14.169 --> 00:09:17.250 came across these atheist sites that basically... 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.740 Started some of the atheist web responding to 00:09:20.740 --> 00:09:23.200 my dad's content and evidence that demands a 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.299 verdict. Wow. Chapter by chapter, doctors, lawyers, 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.620 historians, philosophers. And that's the first 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:31.519 time the weight hit me like you and I thought, 00:09:31.659 --> 00:09:34.100 oh my goodness, what if I'm wrong about this? 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:38.159 Yeah. It wasn't just intellectual. It was emotional. 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.940 I felt it. Like it was heavy because I realized 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:44.659 what's at stake. Well, I figured I had to tell. 00:09:45.049 --> 00:09:48.090 my dad, this great apologist, and you know, in 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:49.590 case some people don't know him, just so people 00:09:49.590 --> 00:09:52.970 have context, he's spoken to 1200 universities, 00:09:53.029 --> 00:09:55.970 written 160 books, hands down, one of the most 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:58.309 influential evangelicals in the past half century. 00:09:58.429 --> 00:10:00.610 And he's an apologist. And this is my dad. And 00:10:00.610 --> 00:10:02.350 I'm about to tell him that I'm not sure I think 00:10:02.350 --> 00:10:04.330 this stuff is true. So just setting the table 00:10:04.330 --> 00:10:08.409 for people. And we're in Breckenridge, Colorado. 00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:10.629 And I just said, hey, can we go to coffee or 00:10:10.629 --> 00:10:13.090 tea or something like that? And we sat down as 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:14.830 best as I could remember, Chip. I wish I had 00:10:14.830 --> 00:10:16.250 a video of it. I said something to the effect 00:10:16.250 --> 00:10:19.950 of, Dad, you know, I'm not really sure I'm convinced 00:10:19.950 --> 00:10:23.429 Christianity is true. He didn't freak out. He 00:10:23.429 --> 00:10:25.649 looked at me and goes, son, I think that's great. 00:10:26.330 --> 00:10:28.909 And I remember thinking, did you even hear what 00:10:28.909 --> 00:10:32.950 I just said? And what he communicated to me was, 00:10:33.049 --> 00:10:34.950 you know, you can't believe this just because 00:10:34.950 --> 00:10:37.929 I believe it. You got to decide and follow what 00:10:37.929 --> 00:10:41.009 you think is true. He said, don't reject Christianity. 00:10:41.969 --> 00:10:44.710 Unless you're really convinced that it's false. 00:10:45.370 --> 00:10:47.610 And you know your mom and I will love you no 00:10:47.610 --> 00:10:51.269 matter what. Wow. And I really don't want to 00:10:51.269 --> 00:10:53.929 over -dramatize that, but it was a significant 00:10:53.929 --> 00:10:57.669 moment for me. And that's what I encourage parents 00:10:57.669 --> 00:11:00.990 to do. Don't freak out. Don't get defensive. 00:11:01.230 --> 00:11:03.909 It probably has nothing to do with your parenting 00:11:03.909 --> 00:11:07.860 or lack thereof. And one of the most interesting 00:11:07.860 --> 00:11:09.539 studies, Chip, this was done on millennials, 00:11:09.860 --> 00:11:13.080 Sticky Faith by Kara Powell out of Fuller Theological 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:16.940 Seminary. They said people don't leave the faith 00:11:16.940 --> 00:11:20.820 because of doubts. They do because of unexpressed 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:24.179 doubts. People don't leave primarily because 00:11:24.179 --> 00:11:27.759 of questions, but because of unexpressed questions 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:32.340 that foster like a cancer. So in many ways, she's 00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:35.080 been able to get off my chest and have my dad 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.460 not freak out. It's like, I think about like 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:39.360 when I'm on the airline and I look at the steward, 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:41.059 you know, when we're shaking a little bit, I've 00:11:41.059 --> 00:11:42.659 traveled my whole life and I still get a little 00:11:42.659 --> 00:11:44.519 antsy. If I look at the steward and they're like 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:46.379 freaking out, like I'm going, oh boy, we're going 00:11:46.379 --> 00:11:49.700 down. But they've been trained to look calm and 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:53.519 collected and put you at ease. That's the response 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:55.519 when kids doubt. My dad is like, you're going 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.539 to be fine. If you seek after truth, you're going 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:02.190 to end up following Jesus, I think. And I love 00:12:02.190 --> 00:12:04.830 you no matter what. So he gave me space, reassured 00:12:04.830 --> 00:12:08.070 me of my love, didn't freak out. He offered to 00:12:08.070 --> 00:12:10.389 help me make sense of these. But honestly, I 00:12:10.389 --> 00:12:13.090 needed somebody else outside of my dad. Like 00:12:13.090 --> 00:12:14.929 in movies, sometimes you just need a mentor. 00:12:15.070 --> 00:12:17.330 So people like William Lane Craig and J .P. Moreland 00:12:17.330 --> 00:12:19.970 to answer some of those philosophical questions. 00:12:20.789 --> 00:12:24.269 And ultimately, I obviously came back or stayed 00:12:24.269 --> 00:12:26.690 within the faith, I guess you could say. You 00:12:26.690 --> 00:12:29.429 know, I've come from most of this from a pastoral 00:12:29.429 --> 00:12:32.889 perspective. talking with those parents that 00:12:32.889 --> 00:12:36.730 literally are, what did I do wrong? And the world 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:40.149 is falling apart. And their fear often drives 00:12:40.149 --> 00:12:44.549 them to start shoving information in front of 00:12:44.549 --> 00:12:48.190 their student or young adult, which actually 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:52.570 produces exactly the opposite response of what 00:12:52.570 --> 00:12:54.850 they're really hoping for. And it's the opposite 00:12:54.850 --> 00:12:58.210 of what you described. And I say that to those 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:01.399 listening. If you could lighten up and trust 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.740 God in the midst of this and give God some room 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:09.279 to work in your, whether it's a teenager or young 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:12.940 adult or college student. One of my four kids 00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:15.940 went through a real challenging time. He's really, 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.500 really smart. One of those kids that didn't have 00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:22.299 to study and did great on the test, which made 00:13:22.299 --> 00:13:25.519 his. fraternal twin brother, absolutely sick. 00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:28.379 You know, he would bust it and work and work 00:13:28.379 --> 00:13:31.059 and work, and they'd both do well. But it was 00:13:31.059 --> 00:13:34.440 like one would just show up and not study and 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.740 get, you know, two points higher than his brother. 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:40.000 And he went through a time where he just, he 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.519 looked at me and said, Dad, I actually really 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.019 like you as a dad. I just wish you weren't a 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.080 Christian dad. Oh, my goodness. And it wasn't 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.519 like, oh, two weeks later, everything was fine. 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:54.559 He went on a journey of questions and doubts 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.779 that just led to some really challenging times. 00:13:58.379 --> 00:14:00.659 Fast forward, it was three, four years later. 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:05.259 It was not an easy or short -term time. And it 00:14:05.259 --> 00:14:07.080 kind of came to a crisis, and we had to figure 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:08.440 out, you know, where are we going to go with 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.620 this? And he spent a couple days, as I remember 00:14:12.620 --> 00:14:14.200 it, he might remember it a little bit differently. 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.019 I'm learning the older I get. We both have the 00:14:18.019 --> 00:14:21.039 same experience, but it is recorded very differently 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.500 or can be very different. So I just want to honor 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:26.259 him in that. But I remember him coming out of 00:14:26.259 --> 00:14:28.059 his bedroom, at least it seemed to me, after 00:14:28.059 --> 00:14:32.179 about two days. I could see this change. At some 00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:34.220 point later, when you could just really tell 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:36.980 that he'd reestablished his faith, I kind of 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:39.600 asked him, what happened? He said, well, Dad, 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.019 to be very honest, I really struggled, and I 00:14:43.019 --> 00:14:47.919 wrestled. But he said, you know, I've watched 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:52.899 you and Mom, and Jesus is so real to you two. 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:57.740 And you and Mom, you're first -generation Christians, 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.120 and you're just the same at home as you are at 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.179 church. I asked Jesus to be as real to me as 00:15:05.179 --> 00:15:08.409 he obviously is to you. And I just want to kind 00:15:08.409 --> 00:15:11.110 of say maybe to some of those parents, grandparents, 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:14.529 or even some pastors that there's few things 00:15:14.529 --> 00:15:17.049 that we'll do to help our kids walk with God 00:15:17.049 --> 00:15:20.509 more than just with all of our imperfections. 00:15:20.610 --> 00:15:23.789 Just live it out. You know, they actually do 00:15:23.789 --> 00:15:26.029 observe us. And just because they go through 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:29.309 some seasons where they doubt or struggle, one 00:15:29.309 --> 00:15:32.429 of the greatest apologetics is... the love of 00:15:32.429 --> 00:15:34.809 God and the light of God being lived out in very 00:15:34.809 --> 00:15:37.690 imperfect people like a mom and dad. And that 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:40.129 has been a great hope and encouragement for me 00:15:40.129 --> 00:15:42.350 that I've shared with a lot of parents going 00:15:42.350 --> 00:15:45.289 through rough times. That's an amazing story. 00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:47.269 Thanks for sharing that. That line just jumped 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:49.830 out to me. I wish you weren't a Christian dad. 00:15:50.429 --> 00:15:54.330 I mean, every bone or nerve inside of me would 00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:58.230 want to get defensive and get... angry and react 00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:01.529 and feel offended. That's just a natural human 00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:05.590 response. But if we ask ourself, what's best 00:16:05.590 --> 00:16:10.309 for our kid in this situation? It's just to listen 00:16:10.309 --> 00:16:13.269 and say, tell me about that. What do you wish 00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:15.970 that I was? Why do you wish I wasn't a Christian? 00:16:16.429 --> 00:16:18.750 What do you understand that Christianity is? 00:16:19.330 --> 00:16:21.570 When did you first have this thought that you 00:16:21.570 --> 00:16:24.830 wished it were different? I mean, just be curious 00:16:24.830 --> 00:16:27.779 and lean in. And it sounds like that's what you 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.100 did. So great stories, powerful stuff, Chip. 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.440 You know, it was just probably one of those times 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.460 where my lack of response was probably the best 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:40.059 thing I could have ever done other than it broke 00:16:40.059 --> 00:16:43.039 my heart. Of course. But, you know, as we're 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:45.940 talking here, a lot of things boil down to real 00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:48.840 personal relationship. And as I heard you, be 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.360 curious, ask questions, find out where did this 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.639 start, give people some space. And I'm going 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:58.960 to write this down for my pastoral counseling 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:03.419 in the future. Your words, don't freak out. That 00:17:03.419 --> 00:17:06.720 was a great line. As you're with young people 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.380 all the time now, what are the challenges? Where 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:11.799 do the struggles come up? And what's been the 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.839 most effective way to help them develop their 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.539 own faith, which really is the goal here. We're 00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:19.500 not trying to figure out how as parents or pastors 00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.680 or grandparents to brainwash our kids to get 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.759 in a little box and believe this or believe that. 00:17:25.529 --> 00:17:28.609 It's to meet the living God and know emotionally 00:17:28.609 --> 00:17:32.029 and intellectually and volitionally, this is 00:17:32.029 --> 00:17:35.210 true and I believe it for me. Yeah, that's a 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:37.130 good two -part question. Let's start with the 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:38.970 first part that you said about the challenges 00:17:38.970 --> 00:17:41.390 that they face and then get to what the positive 00:17:41.390 --> 00:17:44.589 steps are that we can take biblically. I think 00:17:44.589 --> 00:17:46.609 there's different kinds of challenges. I think 00:17:46.609 --> 00:17:48.609 in this generation, of course, we're hearing 00:17:48.609 --> 00:17:52.309 about anxiety. and depression and loneliness. 00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:57.089 So mental health issues in some ways affect the 00:17:57.089 --> 00:18:00.369 way we process truth. It becomes like a filter 00:18:00.369 --> 00:18:02.950 through which we read the scriptures, sometimes 00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:07.390 positively, sometimes negatively. There was just 00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:10.769 an article last week in the New York Times talking 00:18:10.769 --> 00:18:15.470 about how since 2019, The percentage of nuns 00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:18.630 has flatlined. So we've heard since the 90s that 00:18:18.630 --> 00:18:21.130 N -O -N -E -S, those who are not religious, has 00:18:21.130 --> 00:18:24.130 been increasing, yet it's flatlined. And yet 00:18:24.130 --> 00:18:26.190 this article said, and they were citing Ryan 00:18:26.190 --> 00:18:28.430 Burge, who's one of the experts on this, that 00:18:28.430 --> 00:18:31.609 as older generations die out and millennials 00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:35.390 and Gen Zers become more of the population, the 00:18:35.390 --> 00:18:38.750 shift towards nuns and secularism is going to 00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:41.809 increase substantially. And I think he's probably 00:18:41.809 --> 00:18:46.839 right. The thing they said was, this is one piece 00:18:46.839 --> 00:18:50.900 of it, but they said just the church abuse scandals. 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:54.000 They said a lot of younger Christians, maybe 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.920 30 and below, and non -Christians are looking 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:58.839 at the church saying, aren't they necessarily 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:02.339 more moral than I am? Are they good? Are they 00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:05.220 really living differently? And if they're not, 00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:07.500 this is back to your point earlier, Chip, like 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.900 if we're not living it and modeling the life 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:12.730 of Christ. It doesn't matter what we say, what 00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:16.430 apologetic we give. There's issues of just our 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:20.009 witness in this frazzled, polarized, angry culture. 00:19:20.230 --> 00:19:22.549 I think questions of science and faith still 00:19:22.549 --> 00:19:25.349 bubble to the surface, especially with artificial 00:19:25.349 --> 00:19:30.589 intelligence and the soul and the afterlife and 00:19:30.589 --> 00:19:33.910 evolution. Like science is still such an authority 00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:36.849 in our culture that that comes. And then I think 00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:39.589 questions about just the exclusivity of faith. 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.240 I mean, this generation, I was talking yesterday 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:43.980 with my students at Biola how when I was in high 00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:45.740 school, it was like everyone was talking about 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:50.099 tolerance. Now it's diversity and inclusiveness. 00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:53.680 And yet the gospel, you know, some think it's 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:55.900 a white man's religion. Whether true or not, 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.940 they think it's not diverse. And also, it seems 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:04.619 exclusive, the opposite of inclusivity. So that's 00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:07.180 exploded with this generation in a way that's 00:20:07.180 --> 00:20:09.359 different with previous generations, arguably, 00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:12.359 at least at this stage of development. I think 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.119 some of the intellectual questions are things 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.000 like, I mean, I just get questions all the time 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.680 about sexuality everywhere I go. The LGBTQ conversation. 00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:27.069 And it's not just what does Romans 1 say about 00:20:27.069 --> 00:20:29.049 this? So what does the science show about whether 00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:31.349 you're born this way or not? It's I have a friend 00:20:31.349 --> 00:20:34.410 who's this way. And can I really love Jesus and 00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:37.289 love them? Am I a bigot? How do I navigate this? 00:20:37.369 --> 00:20:40.170 Like those are real questions that I think this 00:20:40.170 --> 00:20:42.890 generation is wrestling with. And so we got to 00:20:42.890 --> 00:20:45.789 walk them through what scripture says, why it 00:20:45.789 --> 00:20:48.990 says it and why it's good for them. I'm going 00:20:48.990 --> 00:20:52.740 to say at the root of the Christian ethic. is 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:56.200 to love our neighbor. Why? Because they're made 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.240 in the image of God. This is a Judeo -Christian 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:02.380 belief. Gay or straight, regardless of sexual 00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:05.119 orientation, you have infinite value because 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:08.880 you reflect our creator. So it is the Christian 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:13.279 ethic Jesus gave the Samaritan about loving those 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.259 who might be different. So let's start there 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:19.640 and ask, what does it look like to love our neighbors, 00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:23.779 LGBTQ or not? Well, then let's ask the question. 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:26.299 Some of this really, I would take a step back, 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.619 is a question of biblical authority. I really 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:31.460 think the root is, do we take authority from 00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:34.119 culture, from our feelings, from experience, 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.240 ultimately from science or from scripture? So 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.259 in some ways, we've got to come back to the question 00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:41.680 of what do we consider authoritative and why? 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.039 Which is why with this generation, we not only 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.240 have to teach them what the Bible says, but why 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.940 it says what it says. So my 12 -year -old son, 00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:55.500 we were just talking. We do breakfast together 00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.160 in the morning when we can. And I've been talking 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.619 with him, either Gospel of John, or I've been 00:22:00.619 --> 00:22:02.960 talking with him about this book on how to talk 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.220 to your kids about sex. And I just said, what 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:07.940 is God's design for sex? He gave an answer for 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:10.420 it. And I just said, why do you think God gives 00:22:10.420 --> 00:22:13.660 that design? And I listened to him and I said, 00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.619 you know, God's design is to protect us. When 00:22:16.619 --> 00:22:18.599 we step outside of God's design, there can be 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.470 emotional hurt. There can be relational wounding. 00:22:21.529 --> 00:22:24.650 There can be things like STDs when we step outside 00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:28.789 of God's design. But, you know, positively, I 00:22:28.789 --> 00:22:30.549 said, buddy, you know, he's 12. I said, do you 00:22:30.549 --> 00:22:32.549 think it's important for a kid to have a mom 00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:36.869 and a dad? He said, yeah. I said, do moms parent 00:22:36.869 --> 00:22:40.069 differently than dads parent? He said, yes. That's 00:22:40.069 --> 00:22:43.609 God's design and that's good. So one of the reasons 00:22:43.609 --> 00:22:46.029 God says marriage is one man and one woman in 00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:48.349 a committed relationship for life is so kids 00:22:48.349 --> 00:22:52.049 grow up. in the optimal environment where they 00:22:52.049 --> 00:22:56.269 have a mom and a dad. And the sociological research 00:22:56.269 --> 00:22:59.089 shows that that's the environment in which we 00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:02.529 flourish most. That's a few points that I would 00:23:02.529 --> 00:23:05.109 make. And the T is different than the L and the 00:23:05.109 --> 00:23:08.130 G and the B. Speaking to a Christian kid is different 00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:10.069 than speaking to somebody who's a non -Christian. 00:23:10.670 --> 00:23:12.789 But I just want to pull back and say, God is 00:23:12.789 --> 00:23:15.029 the one who gave us the ethic of equality. God 00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:17.700 is the one who gave us the ethic of... Love your 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:19.420 neighbor. God is the one who gave us the ethic 00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:23.700 that we have value because we are human. But 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:26.299 that same God designed marriage and he designed 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.859 our bodies to operate a certain way. And when 00:23:29.859 --> 00:23:32.619 we follow the owner's manual, which is according 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:36.420 to God's design, we actually flourish as human 00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:38.880 beings most. So these are some of the questions 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.900 this generation wrestles with as a whole. The 00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:43.720 best thing I found is when I have a young person 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:45.559 in front of me is I don't want to assume they're 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.400 wrestling with A, B, or C. I just want to ask 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:51.779 questions, listen, and figure out the heart of 00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:54.319 what they're dealing with and try to address 00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:00.680 that if I can. This is Living on the Edge with 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:02.660 Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to the 00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:04.859 first half of Chip's interview with author and 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:07.740 apologist Sean McDowell. To go back and listen 00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:10.319 to any part of this series, Dealing with Doubts, 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:30.819 visit livingontheedge .com. So visit livingontheedge 00:24:30.819 --> 00:24:33.960 .org to learn more. You've been listening to 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.259 a selected program that we wanted to share from 00:24:36.259 --> 00:24:38.480 this past week. To hear more from our series, 00:24:38.660 --> 00:24:41.900 Dealing With Doubts, go to livingontheedge .org 00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:44.799 or the Chip Ingram app. Until next time, I'm 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.880 Dave Brewey saying thanks for listening to this 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.279 weekend edition of Living on the Edge.