Picture this. A close friend asks you to meet
them for coffee, and after catching up for a
little while, they lean in and quietly admit,
You know, I've been wanting to talk to you because
I'm having a lot of doubts about whether Christianity
is the way for me. I mean, how can I know the
Bible is true and that Jesus really loves me?
Will you help me? I'm not sure what to do. Well,
let me tell you, that scenario is all too real
for many believers who've had that close friend
or maybe even a child share those honest feelings
from their heart. And when those moments come
up, that's a perfect opportunity for you to step
up and support them. So coming up on this weekend
edition of Living on the Edge, we'll help you
talk to and care for those wrestling with their
faith. I'm Dave Drew. And a few days ago, we
wrapped up our series Dealing with Doubts. But
today we wanted to highlight Chip's insightful
conversation from this past week with best -selling
author and prominent Christian apologist Sean
McDowell. The two discussed the subject of doubt
as Chip opened up about a heartbreaking conversation
he once had with his son who was in the middle
of a faith crisis. So with that, here's Chip
to get us started. We spent the last month talking
about we all have doubts, we all have struggles,
and of course those that are parents and grandparents,
pastors, The next generation is certainly near
and dear to our heart. And so as I was praying
this through, I thought, who could I invite that
works with young people that really is connected
to what's really going on to say, hey, could
you help us really understand what's going on
in the lives, especially of younger people and
where their struggles are, where their doubts.
And so I want to welcome Sean McDowell. Great
to have you with us. Chip, this is such a treat.
I've been looking forward to this. Well, thanks
for being with us. I did not grow up as a follower
of Christ, and I was a skeptic. And your dad's
book, More Than a Carpenter and then Evidence
That Demands a Verdict, were ones that I poured
over and like, could this really be true in my
kind of young struggle? So it's great to have
you with us. And maybe tell us, I know you're
a professor at Biola. I have watched your podcast.
Give me just a little bit of your background
and your heart and why you do what you do. Yeah,
I grew up in a small town in San Diego, even
though my parents were missionaries and still
are with crew. I had no intention of becoming
an apologist, being a professor, or following
in my dad's footsteps. At one point, I thought
I was going into politics. Another time, a lawyer.
I thought I was going to play in the NBA, probably
in junior high. Like, I just had no intention
of going into this for a lot of reasons. Really,
one thing that shifted, there's a few pieces
of this story, but my senior year at Biola, I
had a class with J .P. Moreland, who's still
to this day one of the leading philosophers,
not just Christian philosophers, in the world
on the philosophy of mind. And it was on apologetics.
And I thought, well, this will be easy. I grew
up in an apologetics family. I had no idea when
I was stepping into CHIP because my dad, like
you mentioned, the two books, More than a Carpenter,
Evidence to Man's Verdict, those are historical
apologetics. JP does philosophical apologetics,
the argument from consciousness, intelligent
design. I heard this stuff and was like, whoa,
this is so interesting. And so ended up wanting
to become, I wanted to work with students. I
got that love from my parents. And I thought,
you know, I could teach in a youth ministry program,
but you only get students an hour or two a week.
I'm going to teach at a Christian school, have
students three hours a week, get weekends and
summers off to speak and write. And for 21 years,
full -time and part -time, I've been teaching
Bible. And this is the first year I'm actually
not doing it part -time. I'm a full -time apologetics
professor. So I guess to sum it up, I'm a communicator.
I have a YouTube channel. I'm on Instagram. I
write books. I speak and teach. And my heart
is— evangelism apologetics equipping and reaching
the next generation. I'm going to just jump right
in because we've covered some of the intellectual
issues, emotional issues, everything from does
Christianity work? Is it believable? But one
of the things we wanted to frame everything around
was this whole idea of doubt. And some people
think that any doubt you might have about God
or his word is negative. But from your perspective,
what's the role of doubt? How does that play
out in the development of our faith? I'm a natural
doubter, Chip. I doubt everything. If I buy a
car, I'm like, well, maybe I should have bought
in this car. If I go on a vacation, I'm like,
well, maybe I could have got a better deal. I
just doubt everything. I think I'm wired that
way. And I have a pastor friend years ago who
I think has the gift of faith. And at this point,
he lost his job, was looking for another one.
And I'm like, hey, what are you going to do?
And he's like, you know what? God is going to
provide. And I'm like, how do you know? Maybe
God wants you to suffer. And he just looks at
me. He's like, Sean, God's going to provide.
Don't worry. And I remember like looking at that
going, man, why don't I have that faith? And
it hit me sometime later. I thought, you know
what? If I had that kind of gift of faith as
he did, I wouldn't write 700 page books defending
the truth of Christianity. I wouldn't do a PhD
dissertation. tracing down the stories of whether
or not the apostles died as martyrs to see if
we could trust their testimony. It's doubts that
drive me to ask questions, drive me to go in.
So my friend needs me to do this and I need his
strength of faith. So people are going to have
different kinds and levels of doubt. Now in our
age of social media, I really don't know how
anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. I don't
know how it's possible with so many smart people
who have, for lack of a better term, ministries
all over TikTok, all over YouTube, all over trying
to evangelize and disciple people out of their
faith. I don't know how everybody doesn't at
least have some doubt. But one key point I would
make that's really important, doubt is not the
opposite of faith. Unbelief is. You can believe
something and have doubts. In a sense, to have
doubt is just to not be 100 % certain that something
is true. Right. But it's important we don't assume
doubt is unbelief, which is why I think Jude
22 says, have mercy on those who doubt. It can
be painful. It can be difficult. It can be an
existential crisis, which I, in part, went through.
So last thing I'll say in this is when my students
often say to me, you know, I'm having doubts
or questions, I'll respond by saying, good for
you. I just want to let them know, okay, you
realize this matters. And you use your mind,
you're asking questions. Let's dig in and see
if we can figure this out. That is so helpful.
Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief
is. I don't think most people think of it like
that. I remember I didn't grow up as a follower
of Christ right after high school. trusted Christ,
got involved in a discipleship ministry. And
then I really had a hunger for God. And then
I decided one summer, mostly so I could play
in a summer basketball league and be ready for
the next year of college basketball. It really
wasn't about school, but I stayed on campus.
And I remember something happened. It was just
a flash of, what if this isn't true? What if
this is just some... college emotional experience.
God really changed my life, my relationships.
And so I had this experiential reality. And then
I had, looking back, probably extreme spiritual
warfare. But it was like darts of, you're deluded.
You're crazy. None of this is true. And I went
through a summer without emotional connection
to God, if you know what I mean. Wow. And choosing
to say, What's it look like to trust God when
all these thoughts are going into my mind and
I don't know what to do with them? Anyway, any
insight on that person who is saying, I don't
know if this is true? Well, one point I want
to make is I want to compare and contrast your
story with the person in the Bible who we associate
with doubt, namely Thomas. Thomas didn't say,
gosh, I have questions. I'm not sure. I'm wrestling
with this. I don't know. Thomas said, I will
not believe unless I see and touch the nail marks
in his hand and in his side. We equate doubt
with total rejection of the faith. That's what
we have to reframe. You had an experience of
doubt. Not I reject this. I will not believe,
period, unless you prove it to me empirically.
So some of the way we approach this, I think,
needs to be reshifted. I had a similar experience
as you, Chip. And for me, interestingly enough,
I was also playing college basketball. I didn't
know you were a college basketball player. We
have to have that conversation sometime. And
I was at Biola, of all places, mid -90s. And
I got online and started fishing around trying
to figure out what this internet thing was and
came across these atheist sites that basically...
Started some of the atheist web responding to
my dad's content and evidence that demands a
verdict. Wow. Chapter by chapter, doctors, lawyers,
historians, philosophers. And that's the first
time the weight hit me like you and I thought,
oh my goodness, what if I'm wrong about this?
Yeah. It wasn't just intellectual. It was emotional.
I felt it. Like it was heavy because I realized
what's at stake. Well, I figured I had to tell.
my dad, this great apologist, and you know, in
case some people don't know him, just so people
have context, he's spoken to 1200 universities,
written 160 books, hands down, one of the most
influential evangelicals in the past half century.
And he's an apologist. And this is my dad. And
I'm about to tell him that I'm not sure I think
this stuff is true. So just setting the table
for people. And we're in Breckenridge, Colorado.
And I just said, hey, can we go to coffee or
tea or something like that? And we sat down as
best as I could remember, Chip. I wish I had
a video of it. I said something to the effect
of, Dad, you know, I'm not really sure I'm convinced
Christianity is true. He didn't freak out. He
looked at me and goes, son, I think that's great.
And I remember thinking, did you even hear what
I just said? And what he communicated to me was,
you know, you can't believe this just because
I believe it. You got to decide and follow what
you think is true. He said, don't reject Christianity.
Unless you're really convinced that it's false.
And you know your mom and I will love you no
matter what. Wow. And I really don't want to
over -dramatize that, but it was a significant
moment for me. And that's what I encourage parents
to do. Don't freak out. Don't get defensive.
It probably has nothing to do with your parenting
or lack thereof. And one of the most interesting
studies, Chip, this was done on millennials,
Sticky Faith by Kara Powell out of Fuller Theological
Seminary. They said people don't leave the faith
because of doubts. They do because of unexpressed
doubts. People don't leave primarily because
of questions, but because of unexpressed questions
that foster like a cancer. So in many ways, she's
been able to get off my chest and have my dad
not freak out. It's like, I think about like
when I'm on the airline and I look at the steward,
you know, when we're shaking a little bit, I've
traveled my whole life and I still get a little
antsy. If I look at the steward and they're like
freaking out, like I'm going, oh boy, we're going
down. But they've been trained to look calm and
collected and put you at ease. That's the response
when kids doubt. My dad is like, you're going
to be fine. If you seek after truth, you're going
to end up following Jesus, I think. And I love
you no matter what. So he gave me space, reassured
me of my love, didn't freak out. He offered to
help me make sense of these. But honestly, I
needed somebody else outside of my dad. Like
in movies, sometimes you just need a mentor.
So people like William Lane Craig and J .P. Moreland
to answer some of those philosophical questions.
And ultimately, I obviously came back or stayed
within the faith, I guess you could say. You
know, I've come from most of this from a pastoral
perspective. talking with those parents that
literally are, what did I do wrong? And the world
is falling apart. And their fear often drives
them to start shoving information in front of
their student or young adult, which actually
produces exactly the opposite response of what
they're really hoping for. And it's the opposite
of what you described. And I say that to those
listening. If you could lighten up and trust
God in the midst of this and give God some room
to work in your, whether it's a teenager or young
adult or college student. One of my four kids
went through a real challenging time. He's really,
really smart. One of those kids that didn't have
to study and did great on the test, which made
his. fraternal twin brother, absolutely sick.
You know, he would bust it and work and work
and work, and they'd both do well. But it was
like one would just show up and not study and
get, you know, two points higher than his brother.
And he went through a time where he just, he
looked at me and said, Dad, I actually really
like you as a dad. I just wish you weren't a
Christian dad. Oh, my goodness. And it wasn't
like, oh, two weeks later, everything was fine.
He went on a journey of questions and doubts
that just led to some really challenging times.
Fast forward, it was three, four years later.
It was not an easy or short -term time. And it
kind of came to a crisis, and we had to figure
out, you know, where are we going to go with
this? And he spent a couple days, as I remember
it, he might remember it a little bit differently.
I'm learning the older I get. We both have the
same experience, but it is recorded very differently
or can be very different. So I just want to honor
him in that. But I remember him coming out of
his bedroom, at least it seemed to me, after
about two days. I could see this change. At some
point later, when you could just really tell
that he'd reestablished his faith, I kind of
asked him, what happened? He said, well, Dad,
to be very honest, I really struggled, and I
wrestled. But he said, you know, I've watched
you and Mom, and Jesus is so real to you two.
And you and Mom, you're first -generation Christians,
and you're just the same at home as you are at
church. I asked Jesus to be as real to me as
he obviously is to you. And I just want to kind
of say maybe to some of those parents, grandparents,
or even some pastors that there's few things
that we'll do to help our kids walk with God
more than just with all of our imperfections.
Just live it out. You know, they actually do
observe us. And just because they go through
some seasons where they doubt or struggle, one
of the greatest apologetics is... the love of
God and the light of God being lived out in very
imperfect people like a mom and dad. And that
has been a great hope and encouragement for me
that I've shared with a lot of parents going
through rough times. That's an amazing story.
Thanks for sharing that. That line just jumped
out to me. I wish you weren't a Christian dad.
I mean, every bone or nerve inside of me would
want to get defensive and get... angry and react
and feel offended. That's just a natural human
response. But if we ask ourself, what's best
for our kid in this situation? It's just to listen
and say, tell me about that. What do you wish
that I was? Why do you wish I wasn't a Christian?
What do you understand that Christianity is?
When did you first have this thought that you
wished it were different? I mean, just be curious
and lean in. And it sounds like that's what you
did. So great stories, powerful stuff, Chip.
You know, it was just probably one of those times
where my lack of response was probably the best
thing I could have ever done other than it broke
my heart. Of course. But, you know, as we're
talking here, a lot of things boil down to real
personal relationship. And as I heard you, be
curious, ask questions, find out where did this
start, give people some space. And I'm going
to write this down for my pastoral counseling
in the future. Your words, don't freak out. That
was a great line. As you're with young people
all the time now, what are the challenges? Where
do the struggles come up? And what's been the
most effective way to help them develop their
own faith, which really is the goal here. We're
not trying to figure out how as parents or pastors
or grandparents to brainwash our kids to get
in a little box and believe this or believe that.
It's to meet the living God and know emotionally
and intellectually and volitionally, this is
true and I believe it for me. Yeah, that's a
good two -part question. Let's start with the
first part that you said about the challenges
that they face and then get to what the positive
steps are that we can take biblically. I think
there's different kinds of challenges. I think
in this generation, of course, we're hearing
about anxiety. and depression and loneliness.
So mental health issues in some ways affect the
way we process truth. It becomes like a filter
through which we read the scriptures, sometimes
positively, sometimes negatively. There was just
an article last week in the New York Times talking
about how since 2019, The percentage of nuns
has flatlined. So we've heard since the 90s that
N -O -N -E -S, those who are not religious, has
been increasing, yet it's flatlined. And yet
this article said, and they were citing Ryan
Burge, who's one of the experts on this, that
as older generations die out and millennials
and Gen Zers become more of the population, the
shift towards nuns and secularism is going to
increase substantially. And I think he's probably
right. The thing they said was, this is one piece
of it, but they said just the church abuse scandals.
They said a lot of younger Christians, maybe
30 and below, and non -Christians are looking
at the church saying, aren't they necessarily
more moral than I am? Are they good? Are they
really living differently? And if they're not,
this is back to your point earlier, Chip, like
if we're not living it and modeling the life
of Christ. It doesn't matter what we say, what
apologetic we give. There's issues of just our
witness in this frazzled, polarized, angry culture.
I think questions of science and faith still
bubble to the surface, especially with artificial
intelligence and the soul and the afterlife and
evolution. Like science is still such an authority
in our culture that that comes. And then I think
questions about just the exclusivity of faith.
I mean, this generation, I was talking yesterday
with my students at Biola how when I was in high
school, it was like everyone was talking about
tolerance. Now it's diversity and inclusiveness.
And yet the gospel, you know, some think it's
a white man's religion. Whether true or not,
they think it's not diverse. And also, it seems
exclusive, the opposite of inclusivity. So that's
exploded with this generation in a way that's
different with previous generations, arguably,
at least at this stage of development. I think
some of the intellectual questions are things
like, I mean, I just get questions all the time
about sexuality everywhere I go. The LGBTQ conversation.
And it's not just what does Romans 1 say about
this? So what does the science show about whether
you're born this way or not? It's I have a friend
who's this way. And can I really love Jesus and
love them? Am I a bigot? How do I navigate this?
Like those are real questions that I think this
generation is wrestling with. And so we got to
walk them through what scripture says, why it
says it and why it's good for them. I'm going
to say at the root of the Christian ethic. is
to love our neighbor. Why? Because they're made
in the image of God. This is a Judeo -Christian
belief. Gay or straight, regardless of sexual
orientation, you have infinite value because
you reflect our creator. So it is the Christian
ethic Jesus gave the Samaritan about loving those
who might be different. So let's start there
and ask, what does it look like to love our neighbors,
LGBTQ or not? Well, then let's ask the question.
Some of this really, I would take a step back,
is a question of biblical authority. I really
think the root is, do we take authority from
culture, from our feelings, from experience,
ultimately from science or from scripture? So
in some ways, we've got to come back to the question
of what do we consider authoritative and why?
Which is why with this generation, we not only
have to teach them what the Bible says, but why
it says what it says. So my 12 -year -old son,
we were just talking. We do breakfast together
in the morning when we can. And I've been talking
with him, either Gospel of John, or I've been
talking with him about this book on how to talk
to your kids about sex. And I just said, what
is God's design for sex? He gave an answer for
it. And I just said, why do you think God gives
that design? And I listened to him and I said,
you know, God's design is to protect us. When
we step outside of God's design, there can be
emotional hurt. There can be relational wounding.
There can be things like STDs when we step outside
of God's design. But, you know, positively, I
said, buddy, you know, he's 12. I said, do you
think it's important for a kid to have a mom
and a dad? He said, yeah. I said, do moms parent
differently than dads parent? He said, yes. That's
God's design and that's good. So one of the reasons
God says marriage is one man and one woman in
a committed relationship for life is so kids
grow up. in the optimal environment where they
have a mom and a dad. And the sociological research
shows that that's the environment in which we
flourish most. That's a few points that I would
make. And the T is different than the L and the
G and the B. Speaking to a Christian kid is different
than speaking to somebody who's a non -Christian.
But I just want to pull back and say, God is
the one who gave us the ethic of equality. God
is the one who gave us the ethic of... Love your
neighbor. God is the one who gave us the ethic
that we have value because we are human. But
that same God designed marriage and he designed
our bodies to operate a certain way. And when
we follow the owner's manual, which is according
to God's design, we actually flourish as human
beings most. So these are some of the questions
this generation wrestles with as a whole. The
best thing I found is when I have a young person
in front of me is I don't want to assume they're
wrestling with A, B, or C. I just want to ask
questions, listen, and figure out the heart of
what they're dealing with and try to address
that if I can. This is Living on the Edge with
Chip Ingram, and you've been listening to the
first half of Chip's interview with author and
apologist Sean McDowell. To go back and listen
to any part of this series, Dealing with Doubts,
visit livingontheedge .com. So visit livingontheedge
.org to learn more. You've been listening to
a selected program that we wanted to share from
this past week. To hear more from our series,
Dealing With Doubts, go to livingontheedge .org
or the Chip Ingram app. Until next time, I'm
Dave Brewey saying thanks for listening to this
weekend edition of Living on the Edge.