What do you do and what do you say when your
son or your daughter comes to you privately and
says, Mom, Dad, I'm transgender, or I'm really
struggling with same -sex attraction? Where does
the conversation begin? How do you walk the fine
line of I love you, I accept you, and you're
not going to compromise biblical principles?
That's today. You don't want to miss it. Thanks
for listening to this edition of Living on the
Edge with Chip Ingram. We are an international
teaching and discipleship ministry that encourages
and equips Christians to live like Christians.
Well, this program will pick up in our series,
Uninvited Guests, with the second half of Chip's
insightful interview with bestselling author
and renowned apologist, Sean McDowell. They'll
continue to help God -fearing moms and dads guide
their families through the confusing sexual narratives
of culture. Chip and Sean also challenge parents
to have heartfelt conversations with their kids
that lead with compassion and are also rooted
in truth. Well, they have a lot to get to, so
here again is Chip with part two of his interview,
Grace and Truth. If you were walking through
some passages that teach about sexuality and
why it is God's plan for thriving, because...
We somehow forget that the whole goal of someone
who has made you and loves you, this is not about
restrictions. This is about Jesus wants you to
flourish. And there's some guidelines and guardrails
to allow you to flourish, not out of some pressed
down obedience, but out of a concern, a care,
and knowing that there's lots of off paths that
will take you down places that you can't see
now, but bring a lot of pain. If you were walking
through passages that people really need to understand,
and you would say to this person, you should
at least study these for yourself, where would
you take them? Almost every ethical issue, there's
a core question. So with abortion, the question
is, what is the unborn? If it's not a human being,
no justification is necessary. If it is, then
when is it ever okay to take the life of an innocent
human being? That's the question. When it comes
to issues of sexuality, the question is, is there
a God who's designed us to live and function
a certain way? And has this God made that known?
Now, as Christians, we believe it's known by
natural law, looking at the world, looking at
our bodies. There's just certain truths built
into the world. But we also see that in Scripture.
That's where Genesis starts. In the beginning,
God... created the heavens and the earth. So
in illustration, I'll use my smartphone. I'll
say there's a designer for the smartphone. It's
not to go parachuting or to make waffles. And
it's not a scuba tank. It's designed for purpose.
And I got to understand what that purpose is
and use it accordingly. Well, the Bible starts
with telling us that God is a creator. He's the
designer of the world, of our bodies, of sex.
We see in Genesis 1, God made them male and female,
said populate and fill the earth. So we are sexed
beings built into our bodies. We are male and
we are female. And then Genesis 2, it says a
man leaves his father and mother. So God's design
for the home is that it's a father and mother.
Marriage is a sexed institution. And then, of
course, that's the means by which they populate
and fill the earth. That creation account at
the beginning is consistently pointed back towards
in the Old Testament and the New Testament as
being normative for how we're supposed to live.
So even in Leviticus chapter 18, which is not
one I would turn towards primarily, but when
it talks about same -sex sexual behavior being...
It uses the language for a male shall not lie
with another male. It's an abomination. The language
that is used is reminiscent of the creation account
that they were made male and female, and there's
a design for the human body. You go to the New
Testament, you see the same thing. Jesus, when
asked about marriage in Matthew 19, he's really
asked about divorce. What does he do? He points
back to Genesis 1 and points back to Genesis
2, saying, don't you know it is written in the
beginning God set it up to be this way? So Jesus
is affirming the ongoing relevance of the original
creative design of marriage, one man, one woman,
one flesh, one lifetime. Even in Romans 1, When
Paul gives a very clear condemnation of idolatry,
when he talks about creation reveals the creator,
but people suppress the truth. And then he gives
an example in Romans 1, 26 and 27, pointing towards
the creation of our bodies and people see it
and know it, but suppress it in same -sex sexual
behavior. If you read that passage, he's pointing
back towards the creation account specifically.
just like Jesus did, saying this is normative
for our behavior. So that's why it's not what
we would call adiaphora in Romans 14, where it's
an agree to disagree issue, like the day we worship
on or food. Sexuality is never, ever placed in
that category. It is unequivocally and universally
condemned. which is why in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem
Council, they're like, how much of the law carries
over to Gentiles? And one thing they say is avoid
sexual immorality, which is porneia, which would
have included, of course, adultery and fornication
and same -sex sexual behavior. So creation account
in Genesis 1, I think Matthew 19 with Jesus,
and then Romans 1, because both Jesus and Paul
point back towards that creative norm. Those
are the key passages that I go to when talking
with people. Great summary, Sean. I don't like
this phrase, but let me now play the devil's
advocate. Do it. Because often what happens is,
mom and dad, I really get where you're coming
from. You give me all those Bible passages. What
you don't understand is. I don't believe the
Bible anymore. So your argument from the Bible,
it really doesn't carry any weight. And by the
way, this isn't a confused 16 -year -old. This
is a 24 -year -old who's saying, I don't want
to hear anything about the Bible. I don't believe
in marriage. We happen to be living together,
or I have a same -sex relationship, or I'm viewing
the world completely different. This one man,
one woman, I don't think you can make a case
for that. That's just old, outdated religion.
Sean, what do you say to that parent thinking,
okay, where do we go from here? So if somebody
goes, well, the Bible is not true, I guess you
have two options here. Either you lean into the
Bible being true or Jesus being God, or you lean
into making a case for marriage apart from the
Bible. And I'm not saying there's better or worse.
I think there's a time and place for both. If
I had my choice in most circumstances, I'd probably
say, Let's take a step back and let me ask you
a question. If there were a creator who designed
you to live a certain way and this creator had
made himself known, would you listen to that
creator and be open to that? And I've had people
say, no. I'm like, okay, this is at least helpful
where you stand. Most people are going to say
yes. Because the question of sexuality is really
downstream from whether or not there is a God
and whether Jesus is God and whether we're going
to follow his word. So I'm never going to shy
away from what the Bible teaches about sexuality.
I think we need to speak that clearly and not
pretend otherwise. But I'm going to say, tell
me why you don't believe in the Bible. Tell me
who you think Jesus actually is. So I'm probably
going to typically go that direction. Do you
believe in God? Who do you think Jesus was? Why
or why not? Rather than making a case necessarily
for marriage. Now, I do think we can make a case
for marriage without using the Bible, just like
we can make a case for life without using the
Bible. Probably the best book on this is called
What is Marriage? There's three authors, and
one of them is Ryan Anderson. They just make
a case from natural law. about what marriage
is. And you can kind of point to, you know, the
Bible talks about one flesh, but without using
this language, it's pretty obvious that male
and female are both human, but have different
bodily designs that come together in a way that
a man and a man and a woman and a woman don't.
It's the kind of relationship that is oriented
towards, to use biblical language, populating
and filling the earth. It is a distinctly different
relationship than a father -son, than a friend,
than a tennis partner, than a business partner,
than a man and a man. In fact, every biological
function you can perform as an individual, digestion,
respiration, blood circulation, except for one,
and that's reproduction. That takes a man and
a woman as if they each have half of the system
come together as one towards making babies. This
is a distinct, different kind of relationship
than any other kind of relationship that's out
there. That's one point that you can make, and
I think it's hard to avoid. And then second,
ask the question, why is it that governments
are so interested in regulating this? relationship
but not other relationships and the answer is
because this relationship is what produces the
next generation right and for governments to
survive and thrive and flourish they actually
need another generation we have a birth dearth
right now and it's actually a massive concern
for civilized countries around the world how
few people are having kids And our government
right now is trying to find ways to motivate
people to have more babies for the sake of civilization.
So sometimes it takes a little unpacking, which
is why this is not typically the first step that
I would make. But just questions like, why is
the government interested in this relationship
that's distinct, historically, not for political
reasons? Do you recognize that this union and
what it produces is objectively different than
a man and a man? and a woman, and a woman. And
historically, why has there been this sense of
marriage pretty much universally? Because it
seems to be built into the world. These are the
kinds of questions and ways you could take that
conversation, if helpful. You know, these are
significant issues and problems that we're living
with today. It's interesting to me that some
of the things that allow that bridge of relationship
and the kind of conversations that we're having
right now, are the kind of conversations you
really want to have with preteens. Amen. That
are just open -ended dialogue. But it means that
you actually, this is a wild suggestion, but
that as a family, at least three or four times
a week, you actually eat together. That you actually
turn off screens and phones and TV, and you're
not in a car going from one sport activity to
the next activity. leaving this practice to go
to the other practice. I mean, sometimes we so
narrowly think of, wow, we have these issues
with trans or LGBT or rebellion with children,
and we don't step back to say, well, what kind
of flow and life and pace and conversation has
to be a part of a family for these kind of things
to ever come up rather than the crisis moment?
I think part of my heart's desire behind this
whole series is for moms and dads and single
parents to say, when I look at the activities
of our family, are these building warm, deep
relationships? Is there any margin? Does my five
-year -old really need to be on a formal soccer
team? And it goes back to a lot of, what are
you really trying to produce in your home? And
what does it take to do that? It seems that we've
kind of lost some of the fabric of the most basic
things that allow for our kids to have time and
thought to even ask these kind of questions.
And that a mom or dad that isn't proactively
thinking, what books are we going to read together?
What shows are we going to watch together? What
conversations do I want to make sure that we
have? pastored all these years, and I'm out in
front of groups of people telling them, this
is what Scripture says, and this is the kind
of marriage and this kind of family. And then
I went home, you know, and it was this weight
of, well, Chip, how are you doing living out
what you're telling others? And of course, none
of us can do this perfectly, but that can't be
an excuse for not saying, as Prof. Hendricks
used to say, one of my mentors, If it's not working
at home, don't export it. And what he really
meant was, hey, guys, you can't live with an
awareness that the things you're telling other
people, you're not putting into practice. So
as you kind of put your arm around those that
are listening, some are people that have young
kids. Some are saying, wow, I wish I would have
done this. What are some characteristics of creating
the kind of family relationships? And, you know,
let's face it, a great majority of Christian
or non -Christian They've been through a divorce.
They've been through a challenge or their parents
were divorced. It's really hard if you haven't
seen it. Sure. My situation was my parents weren't
Christians. My dad was an alcoholic. And how
do you learn that when you didn't see it? Well,
there's ways, but you have to be pretty intentional.
Is there a game plan or something you've seen
as you meet students that you think, I'm not
sure exactly what their parents did, but somebody
did something kind of right? Have some help for
our listeners. That's such a great question.
You know, it's interesting you asked this, Chip,
because my dad's story was very much like yours.
And I asked him, I'm like, how did you learn
how to be a good parent and husband? He goes,
son, I just plagiarized, meaning I watched people
who did it well and I hung out with them and
spent time with them and learned how to do it
by osmosis. And I think that's just such good,
humble advice. There's no formula for parenting.
I mean, just like there's no formula for spiritual
parenting, right? Jesus let the rich young ruler
walk away. He wept over Jerusalem because so
many would not accept and believe in him. But
I think there's research in biblical precedent
for being faithful. And when we're faithful,
it gives us the best chance of seeing our kids
also be faithful. I think it's the only way we
can put it. And number one, the data shows if
we want our kids to adopt our faith, we've got
a model of faith that's worth emulating for them.
If they think we're hypocrites, if they think
we just don't really believe it and live it out,
and if they're not drawn to the kind of, say,
marriage or life that we have, it doesn't matter
what we say. Christianity has lost credibility
in their eyes. I'm not telling parents to be
perfect. Kids don't expect their parents to be
perfect. If I had a dollar every time I apologized
to my kids, I could retire. So the first thing
is to look in the mirror and say, am I modeling
this for my kids? And if you're like, yeah, I
think I am. You know, a painful way to find out
is to ask your kids, however old they are, and
just be willing to listen humbly. And they might
give you some difficult pie to swallow. But bottom
line, model it. Number two, like we talked about
earlier, build relationships with your kids.
More important than anything when it's all said
and done, time and intimacy and closeness and
a relationship with your kids where you just
cherish and enjoy them and have fun with them.
Build that close relationship. And not just one
way where I take my kids to do what I'm doing.
You spend time with them, what they care about.
Build relationships. And then third, look for
opportunities to have conversations with them
about faith issues that matter. Kind of like,
you know, Deuteronomy 6, 4, it talks about love,
love, God, heart, soul, mind, and strength. Talk
about these things when you wake up, when you
lie down, when you walk along the way, when you
sit down in the home. In other words, in the
rhythm of life, you look for opportunities. So
if we're ever watching a movie, a friend of mine,
I haven't done it quite like this, but they play
a game called Spot the Lie, where they just teach
their kids, oh, that's a lie about marriage.
That's a lie about God. That's a lie about happiness.
Now, if you do that too much, your kids won't
want to watch movies with you, but you want to
do it some, right? So I'd watch The Flash show
with my kids years ago, and we'd just kind of
stop and, hey, how's this being portrayed? What
do you think? And we'd move on. That was more
the exception, but I just taught them to recognize
certain themes that are in the film. So having
that conversation with your kids. Now, of course,
being involved in a church is key. That's a part
of it. But I would profoundly caution parents
from just assuming that the church is doing it.
I just interviewed Abby Johnson, who's the former
Planned Parenthood director. who left Planned
Parenthood and now is a pro -life advocate because
she saw an abortion performed right in front
of her and it jarred her. She had never seen
it before. Her story is incredible in the movie
Unplanned. And she's like, Sean, I grew up in
a Christian home and the church assumed my parents
were talking about these things. My parents assumed
the church was. So no one really talked to me
about these issues and was just taken in by Planned
Parenthood in college because it looked fun and
they had cool colors and gave her a cause. you
know, she fell into it. So build a relationship
with your kids, model what it looks like, take
your kids consistently to church, but have regular
ongoing spiritual conversations with them. Last
thing I would say is I also look for very strategic
opportunities to engage my kids. So I'll give
you one with each of my kids. So I'll start my
oldest son. When he was 14, he wanted to see
that movie Bohemian Rhapsody about the rock band
Queen. It's PG -13. So I didn't love some of
the content in it, but it was not an R -rated
movie. And so I said, buddy, here's the deal.
I'll take you and a friend and I'll drop $100
on popcorn and tickets. And I said, my only condition
is when we're done, if we'll just sit down and
talk about it afterwards. That's it. He goes,
okay. Took him to the movie. We sat down 25,
30 minutes at the dinner table after the movie.
And I just asked him questions. Hey, what'd you
enjoy about the movie? What surprised you? Who
was your favorite character? What was your favorite
scene? Are there anything as Christian as we
can affirm in this movie? Are there any times
you felt preached at? Anything we would give
pause to and we just talked about it? He's the
kind of kid that would respond to that. My daughter,
she wanted these Birkenstock shoes, which are
just like not cheap. And I said, all right, I'll
tell you what, if you read this book, Chasing
Love, and just make some notes, and then we go
to coffee and just talk about it for an hour,
I'll buy you the shoes. And she goes, dad, there's
an outlet. I could get two for the price one.
I'm like, you can get three for the price one.
I don't care if you can find a good deal. And
so she read it. She read the whole book and we
just went out and I talked about your favorite
chapter. What surprised you? What'd you learn?
What do you think about this? And we just talked
about it together. My younger son, when he was
eight, The word abortion popped up. He goes,
dad, what's abortion? Well, some parents would
change the subject. I'm like, here's an opportunity.
Let's lean in. And with this opportunity, here's
what abortion is. Why did a woman get abortion?
And my best mind explained to an eight -year
-old. What is meant by it? So the point with
my daughter and my two sons is I'm just looking
for opportunities to engage my kids. My younger
son just three months ago wanted this e -bike.
It's all the raids in Southern California. They're
like bikes and they have batteries on them so
they go faster. And it's not cheap. And I said,
tell you what, if you watch these videos from
the Colson Center. these five minute videos or
like PragerU videos. Each one, I'll give you
like $10 towards your bike, but you got to watch
it and take notes and you got to talk to me about
it. And he did a few dozen of them. And some
of these were on issues of sexuality. He did
two or three on LGBTQ issues and he wanted the
bike, gave me a chance to talk to them about
it and teach them. So in summary, let me just
say, model for your kids, build relationships
with them, get them involved in a good church
consistently as you can. have regular conversation
with them, and just look for opportunities consistently
to engage them on these issues. I've heard you
more and more and more say, ask questions, ask
questions. Amen. That's different than go read
this, go to the Sunday school class. This is
what it says. This is what we believe, and I'm
afraid you won't. And so I put pressure on you,
ask questions. And then I would just say for
those who may be thinking. are you saying bribe
your kids to get good information and interaction
with them? Are you really saying that? And I
want to answer that question. Yes. Yep. Okay.
Yep. I mean, everything you just described, I
did with my kids. I love it. And it was around
their interest. That's right. And it was like
a commercial happens and I just push pause and
say, what do you think they're selling? If they're
selling toothpaste, then how are they trying
to get us to buy it? Do you think that if you
use that toothpaste that the Greatest looking
guy or the greatest looking girl in high school
is going to jump in your red convertible? No,
dad. Well, then why do they do that? And they
start looking at things with a skeptical what's
behind it, what's the presupposition, is what
you're really trying to teach them. And I found
even the things that are really black and white,
they pick up on quickly. It was some other movies
or shows where it was very subtle. you realize
that we've been sitting here and we're rooting
for this guy, and I feel like I'm rooting for
this guy, but so far he's lied, he's committed
adultery, he's abandoned his own wife, but they've
created this narrative that it's just hard not
to root for him. What you're really helping him
to do is learn to think and to process. Sean,
thank you so much for what you're doing. I really
appreciate you walking our listeners through.
Some really challenging things. Thanks for what
you do and for a wonderful conversation. Enjoy
every minute of it. Well, we'll do it again as
God allows. Keep pressing ahead, my friend. This
is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. And you've
been listening to the remainder of Chip's insightful
conversation with best -selling author and Christian
apologist, Sean McDowell. To catch up on part
one of this interview or to check out any of
the resources Sean or Chip mentioned, visit livingontheedge
.org. That's livingontheedge .org. Well, before
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Well, for Chip and the entire team here, this
is Dave Drewy thanking you for listening to this
edition of Living on the Edge, and I hope you'll
join us again next time.