WEBVTT 00:00:01.129 --> 00:00:04.309 What do you do and what do you say when your 00:00:04.309 --> 00:00:07.530 son or your daughter comes to you privately and 00:00:07.530 --> 00:00:12.810 says, Mom, Dad, I'm transgender, or I'm really 00:00:12.810 --> 00:00:15.830 struggling with same -sex attraction? Where does 00:00:15.830 --> 00:00:18.949 the conversation begin? How do you walk the fine 00:00:18.949 --> 00:00:22.710 line of I love you, I accept you, and you're 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:24.929 not going to compromise biblical principles? 00:00:25.370 --> 00:00:31.079 That's today. You don't want to miss it. Thanks 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:33.380 for listening to this edition of Living on the 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:36.140 Edge with Chip Ingram. We are an international 00:00:36.140 --> 00:00:39.100 teaching and discipleship ministry that encourages 00:00:39.100 --> 00:00:41.579 and equips Christians to live like Christians. 00:00:41.859 --> 00:00:44.119 Well, this program will pick up in our series, 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.899 Uninvited Guests, with the second half of Chip's 00:00:46.899 --> 00:00:49.060 insightful interview with bestselling author 00:00:49.060 --> 00:00:52.280 and renowned apologist, Sean McDowell. They'll 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:55.079 continue to help God -fearing moms and dads guide 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.759 their families through the confusing sexual narratives 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.979 of culture. Chip and Sean also challenge parents 00:01:00.979 --> 00:01:03.539 to have heartfelt conversations with their kids 00:01:03.539 --> 00:01:06.420 that lead with compassion and are also rooted 00:01:06.420 --> 00:01:08.879 in truth. Well, they have a lot to get to, so 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.060 here again is Chip with part two of his interview, 00:01:11.260 --> 00:01:15.260 Grace and Truth. If you were walking through 00:01:15.260 --> 00:01:19.700 some passages that teach about sexuality and 00:01:19.700 --> 00:01:23.420 why it is God's plan for thriving, because... 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:27.239 We somehow forget that the whole goal of someone 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.579 who has made you and loves you, this is not about 00:01:30.579 --> 00:01:33.680 restrictions. This is about Jesus wants you to 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:37.519 flourish. And there's some guidelines and guardrails 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:40.939 to allow you to flourish, not out of some pressed 00:01:40.939 --> 00:01:45.219 down obedience, but out of a concern, a care, 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.480 and knowing that there's lots of off paths that 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:51.299 will take you down places that you can't see 00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:54.459 now, but bring a lot of pain. If you were walking 00:01:54.459 --> 00:01:58.219 through passages that people really need to understand, 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:01.019 and you would say to this person, you should 00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:03.280 at least study these for yourself, where would 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:05.920 you take them? Almost every ethical issue, there's 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.080 a core question. So with abortion, the question 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:13.680 is, what is the unborn? If it's not a human being, 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.919 no justification is necessary. If it is, then 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.460 when is it ever okay to take the life of an innocent 00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:23.960 human being? That's the question. When it comes 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:26.639 to issues of sexuality, the question is, is there 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:31.520 a God who's designed us to live and function 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.219 a certain way? And has this God made that known? 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:39.280 Now, as Christians, we believe it's known by 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:41.680 natural law, looking at the world, looking at 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:43.800 our bodies. There's just certain truths built 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.580 into the world. But we also see that in Scripture. 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.180 That's where Genesis starts. In the beginning, 00:02:50.379 --> 00:02:54.710 God... created the heavens and the earth. So 00:02:54.710 --> 00:02:56.710 in illustration, I'll use my smartphone. I'll 00:02:56.710 --> 00:02:58.870 say there's a designer for the smartphone. It's 00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:03.490 not to go parachuting or to make waffles. And 00:03:03.490 --> 00:03:07.229 it's not a scuba tank. It's designed for purpose. 00:03:07.310 --> 00:03:09.509 And I got to understand what that purpose is 00:03:09.509 --> 00:03:12.530 and use it accordingly. Well, the Bible starts 00:03:12.530 --> 00:03:14.569 with telling us that God is a creator. He's the 00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:17.270 designer of the world, of our bodies, of sex. 00:03:18.110 --> 00:03:20.669 We see in Genesis 1, God made them male and female, 00:03:20.770 --> 00:03:25.129 said populate and fill the earth. So we are sexed 00:03:25.129 --> 00:03:29.169 beings built into our bodies. We are male and 00:03:29.169 --> 00:03:32.069 we are female. And then Genesis 2, it says a 00:03:32.069 --> 00:03:35.870 man leaves his father and mother. So God's design 00:03:35.870 --> 00:03:38.710 for the home is that it's a father and mother. 00:03:38.789 --> 00:03:42.810 Marriage is a sexed institution. And then, of 00:03:42.810 --> 00:03:45.310 course, that's the means by which they populate 00:03:45.310 --> 00:03:49.389 and fill the earth. That creation account at 00:03:49.389 --> 00:03:52.870 the beginning is consistently pointed back towards 00:03:52.870 --> 00:03:56.949 in the Old Testament and the New Testament as 00:03:56.949 --> 00:04:00.370 being normative for how we're supposed to live. 00:04:00.430 --> 00:04:03.330 So even in Leviticus chapter 18, which is not 00:04:03.330 --> 00:04:06.229 one I would turn towards primarily, but when 00:04:06.229 --> 00:04:08.889 it talks about same -sex sexual behavior being... 00:04:09.530 --> 00:04:13.930 It uses the language for a male shall not lie 00:04:13.930 --> 00:04:17.709 with another male. It's an abomination. The language 00:04:17.709 --> 00:04:21.129 that is used is reminiscent of the creation account 00:04:21.129 --> 00:04:24.110 that they were made male and female, and there's 00:04:24.110 --> 00:04:28.050 a design for the human body. You go to the New 00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:31.089 Testament, you see the same thing. Jesus, when 00:04:31.089 --> 00:04:34.910 asked about marriage in Matthew 19, he's really 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:37.759 asked about divorce. What does he do? He points 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:41.519 back to Genesis 1 and points back to Genesis 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:45.839 2, saying, don't you know it is written in the 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:50.319 beginning God set it up to be this way? So Jesus 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.540 is affirming the ongoing relevance of the original 00:04:55.540 --> 00:04:58.839 creative design of marriage, one man, one woman, 00:04:58.899 --> 00:05:04.000 one flesh, one lifetime. Even in Romans 1, When 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.379 Paul gives a very clear condemnation of idolatry, 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:10.839 when he talks about creation reveals the creator, 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:13.500 but people suppress the truth. And then he gives 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:17.259 an example in Romans 1, 26 and 27, pointing towards 00:05:17.259 --> 00:05:20.300 the creation of our bodies and people see it 00:05:20.300 --> 00:05:24.100 and know it, but suppress it in same -sex sexual 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:27.620 behavior. If you read that passage, he's pointing 00:05:27.620 --> 00:05:31.079 back towards the creation account specifically. 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:36.860 just like Jesus did, saying this is normative 00:05:36.860 --> 00:05:41.800 for our behavior. So that's why it's not what 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.360 we would call adiaphora in Romans 14, where it's 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.839 an agree to disagree issue, like the day we worship 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:54.259 on or food. Sexuality is never, ever placed in 00:05:54.259 --> 00:05:57.720 that category. It is unequivocally and universally 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:01.750 condemned. which is why in Acts 15 at the Jerusalem 00:06:01.750 --> 00:06:04.370 Council, they're like, how much of the law carries 00:06:04.370 --> 00:06:06.649 over to Gentiles? And one thing they say is avoid 00:06:06.649 --> 00:06:09.529 sexual immorality, which is porneia, which would 00:06:09.529 --> 00:06:13.709 have included, of course, adultery and fornication 00:06:13.709 --> 00:06:17.990 and same -sex sexual behavior. So creation account 00:06:17.990 --> 00:06:21.230 in Genesis 1, I think Matthew 19 with Jesus, 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:24.029 and then Romans 1, because both Jesus and Paul 00:06:24.029 --> 00:06:28.139 point back towards that creative norm. Those 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:31.939 are the key passages that I go to when talking 00:06:31.939 --> 00:06:34.779 with people. Great summary, Sean. I don't like 00:06:34.779 --> 00:06:36.759 this phrase, but let me now play the devil's 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.699 advocate. Do it. Because often what happens is, 00:06:39.939 --> 00:06:41.899 mom and dad, I really get where you're coming 00:06:41.899 --> 00:06:44.600 from. You give me all those Bible passages. What 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.089 you don't understand is. I don't believe the 00:06:47.089 --> 00:06:49.569 Bible anymore. So your argument from the Bible, 00:06:49.689 --> 00:06:52.250 it really doesn't carry any weight. And by the 00:06:52.250 --> 00:06:55.329 way, this isn't a confused 16 -year -old. This 00:06:55.329 --> 00:06:58.730 is a 24 -year -old who's saying, I don't want 00:06:58.730 --> 00:07:01.329 to hear anything about the Bible. I don't believe 00:07:01.329 --> 00:07:03.649 in marriage. We happen to be living together, 00:07:03.829 --> 00:07:06.670 or I have a same -sex relationship, or I'm viewing 00:07:06.670 --> 00:07:09.629 the world completely different. This one man, 00:07:09.689 --> 00:07:11.910 one woman, I don't think you can make a case 00:07:11.910 --> 00:07:14.389 for that. That's just old, outdated religion. 00:07:15.230 --> 00:07:17.610 Sean, what do you say to that parent thinking, 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:20.250 okay, where do we go from here? So if somebody 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:23.550 goes, well, the Bible is not true, I guess you 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:25.490 have two options here. Either you lean into the 00:07:25.490 --> 00:07:29.329 Bible being true or Jesus being God, or you lean 00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:32.930 into making a case for marriage apart from the 00:07:32.930 --> 00:07:36.110 Bible. And I'm not saying there's better or worse. 00:07:36.209 --> 00:07:39.230 I think there's a time and place for both. If 00:07:39.230 --> 00:07:41.949 I had my choice in most circumstances, I'd probably 00:07:41.949 --> 00:07:44.889 say, Let's take a step back and let me ask you 00:07:44.889 --> 00:07:48.829 a question. If there were a creator who designed 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:52.269 you to live a certain way and this creator had 00:07:52.269 --> 00:07:55.649 made himself known, would you listen to that 00:07:55.649 --> 00:07:59.730 creator and be open to that? And I've had people 00:07:59.730 --> 00:08:03.589 say, no. I'm like, okay, this is at least helpful 00:08:03.589 --> 00:08:06.149 where you stand. Most people are going to say 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:09.550 yes. Because the question of sexuality is really 00:08:09.550 --> 00:08:12.430 downstream from whether or not there is a God 00:08:12.430 --> 00:08:15.629 and whether Jesus is God and whether we're going 00:08:15.629 --> 00:08:19.129 to follow his word. So I'm never going to shy 00:08:19.129 --> 00:08:21.430 away from what the Bible teaches about sexuality. 00:08:21.449 --> 00:08:23.769 I think we need to speak that clearly and not 00:08:23.769 --> 00:08:25.990 pretend otherwise. But I'm going to say, tell 00:08:25.990 --> 00:08:27.730 me why you don't believe in the Bible. Tell me 00:08:27.730 --> 00:08:32.480 who you think Jesus actually is. So I'm probably 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.100 going to typically go that direction. Do you 00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.440 believe in God? Who do you think Jesus was? Why 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:40.820 or why not? Rather than making a case necessarily 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:43.799 for marriage. Now, I do think we can make a case 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.159 for marriage without using the Bible, just like 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.940 we can make a case for life without using the 00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:53.919 Bible. Probably the best book on this is called 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:56.799 What is Marriage? There's three authors, and 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.259 one of them is Ryan Anderson. They just make 00:08:59.259 --> 00:09:02.940 a case from natural law. about what marriage 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:06.379 is. And you can kind of point to, you know, the 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:09.080 Bible talks about one flesh, but without using 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:13.460 this language, it's pretty obvious that male 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:18.139 and female are both human, but have different 00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:22.919 bodily designs that come together in a way that 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:26.559 a man and a man and a woman and a woman don't. 00:09:32.330 --> 00:09:36.649 It's the kind of relationship that is oriented 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:39.669 towards, to use biblical language, populating 00:09:39.669 --> 00:09:44.070 and filling the earth. It is a distinctly different 00:09:44.070 --> 00:09:46.769 relationship than a father -son, than a friend, 00:09:46.929 --> 00:09:48.710 than a tennis partner, than a business partner, 00:09:48.809 --> 00:09:51.970 than a man and a man. In fact, every biological 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:54.950 function you can perform as an individual, digestion, 00:09:55.350 --> 00:09:58.649 respiration, blood circulation, except for one, 00:09:58.769 --> 00:10:02.870 and that's reproduction. That takes a man and 00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:05.549 a woman as if they each have half of the system 00:10:05.549 --> 00:10:12.409 come together as one towards making babies. This 00:10:12.409 --> 00:10:15.750 is a distinct, different kind of relationship 00:10:15.750 --> 00:10:19.870 than any other kind of relationship that's out 00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:21.750 there. That's one point that you can make, and 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:24.789 I think it's hard to avoid. And then second, 00:10:24.889 --> 00:10:26.570 ask the question, why is it that governments 00:10:26.570 --> 00:10:31.710 are so interested in regulating this? relationship 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:35.289 but not other relationships and the answer is 00:10:35.289 --> 00:10:37.909 because this relationship is what produces the 00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:41.049 next generation right and for governments to 00:10:41.049 --> 00:10:44.090 survive and thrive and flourish they actually 00:10:44.090 --> 00:10:47.269 need another generation we have a birth dearth 00:10:47.269 --> 00:10:50.549 right now and it's actually a massive concern 00:10:50.549 --> 00:10:53.090 for civilized countries around the world how 00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:55.799 few people are having kids And our government 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.379 right now is trying to find ways to motivate 00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:02.620 people to have more babies for the sake of civilization. 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.080 So sometimes it takes a little unpacking, which 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.120 is why this is not typically the first step that 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:11.419 I would make. But just questions like, why is 00:11:11.419 --> 00:11:13.399 the government interested in this relationship 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.240 that's distinct, historically, not for political 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:19.399 reasons? Do you recognize that this union and 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:22.159 what it produces is objectively different than 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:25.720 a man and a man? and a woman, and a woman. And 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.659 historically, why has there been this sense of 00:11:28.659 --> 00:11:31.580 marriage pretty much universally? Because it 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:34.120 seems to be built into the world. These are the 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.159 kinds of questions and ways you could take that 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:40.720 conversation, if helpful. You know, these are 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:42.860 significant issues and problems that we're living 00:11:42.860 --> 00:11:46.299 with today. It's interesting to me that some 00:11:46.299 --> 00:11:49.759 of the things that allow that bridge of relationship 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.039 and the kind of conversations that we're having 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:54.779 right now, are the kind of conversations you 00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:58.080 really want to have with preteens. Amen. That 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.419 are just open -ended dialogue. But it means that 00:12:01.419 --> 00:12:05.220 you actually, this is a wild suggestion, but 00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:07.720 that as a family, at least three or four times 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.220 a week, you actually eat together. That you actually 00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:16.259 turn off screens and phones and TV, and you're 00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:18.639 not in a car going from one sport activity to 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.940 the next activity. leaving this practice to go 00:12:21.940 --> 00:12:25.279 to the other practice. I mean, sometimes we so 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.860 narrowly think of, wow, we have these issues 00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:31.960 with trans or LGBT or rebellion with children, 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.500 and we don't step back to say, well, what kind 00:12:35.500 --> 00:12:41.179 of flow and life and pace and conversation has 00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:44.700 to be a part of a family for these kind of things 00:12:44.700 --> 00:12:47.120 to ever come up rather than the crisis moment? 00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:51.330 I think part of my heart's desire behind this 00:12:51.330 --> 00:12:54.909 whole series is for moms and dads and single 00:12:54.909 --> 00:12:58.350 parents to say, when I look at the activities 00:12:58.350 --> 00:13:02.970 of our family, are these building warm, deep 00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:07.549 relationships? Is there any margin? Does my five 00:13:07.549 --> 00:13:09.710 -year -old really need to be on a formal soccer 00:13:09.710 --> 00:13:13.389 team? And it goes back to a lot of, what are 00:13:13.389 --> 00:13:16.509 you really trying to produce in your home? And 00:13:16.509 --> 00:13:19.509 what does it take to do that? It seems that we've 00:13:19.509 --> 00:13:22.809 kind of lost some of the fabric of the most basic 00:13:22.809 --> 00:13:26.769 things that allow for our kids to have time and 00:13:26.769 --> 00:13:29.490 thought to even ask these kind of questions. 00:13:29.769 --> 00:13:32.690 And that a mom or dad that isn't proactively 00:13:32.690 --> 00:13:35.470 thinking, what books are we going to read together? 00:13:35.929 --> 00:13:38.730 What shows are we going to watch together? What 00:13:38.730 --> 00:13:41.070 conversations do I want to make sure that we 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:45.009 have? pastored all these years, and I'm out in 00:13:45.009 --> 00:13:47.330 front of groups of people telling them, this 00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:49.710 is what Scripture says, and this is the kind 00:13:49.710 --> 00:13:51.730 of marriage and this kind of family. And then 00:13:51.730 --> 00:13:55.570 I went home, you know, and it was this weight 00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:59.309 of, well, Chip, how are you doing living out 00:13:59.309 --> 00:14:02.429 what you're telling others? And of course, none 00:14:02.429 --> 00:14:04.450 of us can do this perfectly, but that can't be 00:14:04.450 --> 00:14:07.529 an excuse for not saying, as Prof. Hendricks 00:14:07.529 --> 00:14:10.360 used to say, one of my mentors, If it's not working 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.519 at home, don't export it. And what he really 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.320 meant was, hey, guys, you can't live with an 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.220 awareness that the things you're telling other 00:14:18.220 --> 00:14:20.919 people, you're not putting into practice. So 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.360 as you kind of put your arm around those that 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:25.480 are listening, some are people that have young 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:28.240 kids. Some are saying, wow, I wish I would have 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.460 done this. What are some characteristics of creating 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:34.899 the kind of family relationships? And, you know, 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:37.259 let's face it, a great majority of Christian 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:39.639 or non -Christian They've been through a divorce. 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:41.679 They've been through a challenge or their parents 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:44.340 were divorced. It's really hard if you haven't 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:47.960 seen it. Sure. My situation was my parents weren't 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:50.679 Christians. My dad was an alcoholic. And how 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.179 do you learn that when you didn't see it? Well, 00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:55.460 there's ways, but you have to be pretty intentional. 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.899 Is there a game plan or something you've seen 00:14:58.899 --> 00:15:01.899 as you meet students that you think, I'm not 00:15:01.899 --> 00:15:04.120 sure exactly what their parents did, but somebody 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:07.080 did something kind of right? Have some help for 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.519 our listeners. That's such a great question. 00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:11.039 You know, it's interesting you asked this, Chip, 00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.159 because my dad's story was very much like yours. 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:15.700 And I asked him, I'm like, how did you learn 00:15:15.700 --> 00:15:18.039 how to be a good parent and husband? He goes, 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.659 son, I just plagiarized, meaning I watched people 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:22.779 who did it well and I hung out with them and 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:25.580 spent time with them and learned how to do it 00:15:25.580 --> 00:15:28.960 by osmosis. And I think that's just such good, 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:33.139 humble advice. There's no formula for parenting. 00:15:33.419 --> 00:15:35.960 I mean, just like there's no formula for spiritual 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.539 parenting, right? Jesus let the rich young ruler 00:15:38.539 --> 00:15:42.580 walk away. He wept over Jerusalem because so 00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:45.980 many would not accept and believe in him. But 00:15:45.980 --> 00:15:48.139 I think there's research in biblical precedent 00:15:48.139 --> 00:15:51.620 for being faithful. And when we're faithful, 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:54.259 it gives us the best chance of seeing our kids 00:15:54.259 --> 00:15:56.139 also be faithful. I think it's the only way we 00:15:56.139 --> 00:15:59.000 can put it. And number one, the data shows if 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.139 we want our kids to adopt our faith, we've got 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:06.639 a model of faith that's worth emulating for them. 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.620 If they think we're hypocrites, if they think 00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.980 we just don't really believe it and live it out, 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.919 and if they're not drawn to the kind of, say, 00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:19.080 marriage or life that we have, it doesn't matter 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.129 what we say. Christianity has lost credibility 00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:26.029 in their eyes. I'm not telling parents to be 00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:28.490 perfect. Kids don't expect their parents to be 00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:30.509 perfect. If I had a dollar every time I apologized 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:33.269 to my kids, I could retire. So the first thing 00:16:33.269 --> 00:16:36.169 is to look in the mirror and say, am I modeling 00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:38.889 this for my kids? And if you're like, yeah, I 00:16:38.889 --> 00:16:41.309 think I am. You know, a painful way to find out 00:16:41.309 --> 00:16:43.649 is to ask your kids, however old they are, and 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:46.399 just be willing to listen humbly. And they might 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.259 give you some difficult pie to swallow. But bottom 00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:52.059 line, model it. Number two, like we talked about 00:16:52.059 --> 00:16:54.419 earlier, build relationships with your kids. 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:58.399 More important than anything when it's all said 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:02.480 and done, time and intimacy and closeness and 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:04.960 a relationship with your kids where you just 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.539 cherish and enjoy them and have fun with them. 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:11.960 Build that close relationship. And not just one 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:13.940 way where I take my kids to do what I'm doing. 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.059 You spend time with them, what they care about. 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.819 Build relationships. And then third, look for 00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:23.940 opportunities to have conversations with them 00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:27.480 about faith issues that matter. Kind of like, 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.279 you know, Deuteronomy 6, 4, it talks about love, 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:32.450 love, God, heart, soul, mind, and strength. Talk 00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:34.009 about these things when you wake up, when you 00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:36.569 lie down, when you walk along the way, when you 00:17:36.569 --> 00:17:38.369 sit down in the home. In other words, in the 00:17:38.369 --> 00:17:43.359 rhythm of life, you look for opportunities. So 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:45.539 if we're ever watching a movie, a friend of mine, 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:47.279 I haven't done it quite like this, but they play 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:49.859 a game called Spot the Lie, where they just teach 00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:51.539 their kids, oh, that's a lie about marriage. 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.759 That's a lie about God. That's a lie about happiness. 00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:55.920 Now, if you do that too much, your kids won't 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.799 want to watch movies with you, but you want to 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.339 do it some, right? So I'd watch The Flash show 00:18:01.339 --> 00:18:03.259 with my kids years ago, and we'd just kind of 00:18:03.259 --> 00:18:05.420 stop and, hey, how's this being portrayed? What 00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:06.940 do you think? And we'd move on. That was more 00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:09.779 the exception, but I just taught them to recognize 00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:13.579 certain themes that are in the film. So having 00:18:13.579 --> 00:18:16.799 that conversation with your kids. Now, of course, 00:18:16.819 --> 00:18:20.480 being involved in a church is key. That's a part 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:23.019 of it. But I would profoundly caution parents 00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:26.000 from just assuming that the church is doing it. 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.420 I just interviewed Abby Johnson, who's the former 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:33.299 Planned Parenthood director. who left Planned 00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:36.059 Parenthood and now is a pro -life advocate because 00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:38.720 she saw an abortion performed right in front 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.660 of her and it jarred her. She had never seen 00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:43.319 it before. Her story is incredible in the movie 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:46.859 Unplanned. And she's like, Sean, I grew up in 00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:48.940 a Christian home and the church assumed my parents 00:18:48.940 --> 00:18:50.799 were talking about these things. My parents assumed 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.740 the church was. So no one really talked to me 00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:56.539 about these issues and was just taken in by Planned 00:18:56.539 --> 00:18:58.539 Parenthood in college because it looked fun and 00:18:58.539 --> 00:19:01.460 they had cool colors and gave her a cause. you 00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:04.319 know, she fell into it. So build a relationship 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.319 with your kids, model what it looks like, take 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:10.819 your kids consistently to church, but have regular 00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:14.279 ongoing spiritual conversations with them. Last 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.920 thing I would say is I also look for very strategic 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.599 opportunities to engage my kids. So I'll give 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.039 you one with each of my kids. So I'll start my 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.940 oldest son. When he was 14, he wanted to see 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:28.480 that movie Bohemian Rhapsody about the rock band 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:31.680 Queen. It's PG -13. So I didn't love some of 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.160 the content in it, but it was not an R -rated 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.799 movie. And so I said, buddy, here's the deal. 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:38.920 I'll take you and a friend and I'll drop $100 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:43.099 on popcorn and tickets. And I said, my only condition 00:19:43.099 --> 00:19:46.140 is when we're done, if we'll just sit down and 00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.200 talk about it afterwards. That's it. He goes, 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.359 okay. Took him to the movie. We sat down 25, 00:19:51.539 --> 00:19:53.500 30 minutes at the dinner table after the movie. 00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:56.039 And I just asked him questions. Hey, what'd you 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.680 enjoy about the movie? What surprised you? Who 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:00.039 was your favorite character? What was your favorite 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.140 scene? Are there anything as Christian as we 00:20:02.140 --> 00:20:04.460 can affirm in this movie? Are there any times 00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:06.240 you felt preached at? Anything we would give 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.380 pause to and we just talked about it? He's the 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:12.059 kind of kid that would respond to that. My daughter, 00:20:12.140 --> 00:20:14.400 she wanted these Birkenstock shoes, which are 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.130 just like not cheap. And I said, all right, I'll 00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:21.529 tell you what, if you read this book, Chasing 00:20:21.529 --> 00:20:23.829 Love, and just make some notes, and then we go 00:20:23.829 --> 00:20:25.990 to coffee and just talk about it for an hour, 00:20:26.150 --> 00:20:29.349 I'll buy you the shoes. And she goes, dad, there's 00:20:29.349 --> 00:20:30.869 an outlet. I could get two for the price one. 00:20:30.950 --> 00:20:32.289 I'm like, you can get three for the price one. 00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:34.349 I don't care if you can find a good deal. And 00:20:34.349 --> 00:20:36.890 so she read it. She read the whole book and we 00:20:36.890 --> 00:20:38.029 just went out and I talked about your favorite 00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:39.509 chapter. What surprised you? What'd you learn? 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:41.390 What do you think about this? And we just talked 00:20:41.390 --> 00:20:45.210 about it together. My younger son, when he was 00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:47.869 eight, The word abortion popped up. He goes, 00:20:47.950 --> 00:20:50.210 dad, what's abortion? Well, some parents would 00:20:50.210 --> 00:20:53.309 change the subject. I'm like, here's an opportunity. 00:20:54.309 --> 00:20:57.430 Let's lean in. And with this opportunity, here's 00:20:57.430 --> 00:20:59.390 what abortion is. Why did a woman get abortion? 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:02.690 And my best mind explained to an eight -year 00:21:02.690 --> 00:21:06.059 -old. What is meant by it? So the point with 00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:08.779 my daughter and my two sons is I'm just looking 00:21:08.779 --> 00:21:11.900 for opportunities to engage my kids. My younger 00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:14.220 son just three months ago wanted this e -bike. 00:21:14.299 --> 00:21:16.660 It's all the raids in Southern California. They're 00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:18.619 like bikes and they have batteries on them so 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:21.519 they go faster. And it's not cheap. And I said, 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:23.640 tell you what, if you watch these videos from 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.470 the Colson Center. these five minute videos or 00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:29.250 like PragerU videos. Each one, I'll give you 00:21:29.250 --> 00:21:31.390 like $10 towards your bike, but you got to watch 00:21:31.390 --> 00:21:33.069 it and take notes and you got to talk to me about 00:21:33.069 --> 00:21:35.910 it. And he did a few dozen of them. And some 00:21:35.910 --> 00:21:37.869 of these were on issues of sexuality. He did 00:21:37.869 --> 00:21:40.650 two or three on LGBTQ issues and he wanted the 00:21:40.650 --> 00:21:42.970 bike, gave me a chance to talk to them about 00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:45.910 it and teach them. So in summary, let me just 00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:47.930 say, model for your kids, build relationships 00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:49.829 with them, get them involved in a good church 00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:52.900 consistently as you can. have regular conversation 00:21:52.900 --> 00:21:56.619 with them, and just look for opportunities consistently 00:21:56.619 --> 00:22:01.119 to engage them on these issues. I've heard you 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:04.240 more and more and more say, ask questions, ask 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.700 questions. Amen. That's different than go read 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:08.460 this, go to the Sunday school class. This is 00:22:08.460 --> 00:22:10.140 what it says. This is what we believe, and I'm 00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:12.359 afraid you won't. And so I put pressure on you, 00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:14.740 ask questions. And then I would just say for 00:22:14.740 --> 00:22:18.059 those who may be thinking. are you saying bribe 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:20.440 your kids to get good information and interaction 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.779 with them? Are you really saying that? And I 00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:27.380 want to answer that question. Yes. Yep. Okay. 00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:30.299 Yep. I mean, everything you just described, I 00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:32.519 did with my kids. I love it. And it was around 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:35.000 their interest. That's right. And it was like 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.880 a commercial happens and I just push pause and 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:39.920 say, what do you think they're selling? If they're 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.380 selling toothpaste, then how are they trying 00:22:42.380 --> 00:22:44.519 to get us to buy it? Do you think that if you 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.049 use that toothpaste that the Greatest looking 00:22:47.049 --> 00:22:48.789 guy or the greatest looking girl in high school 00:22:48.789 --> 00:22:51.329 is going to jump in your red convertible? No, 00:22:51.349 --> 00:22:55.170 dad. Well, then why do they do that? And they 00:22:55.170 --> 00:22:58.710 start looking at things with a skeptical what's 00:22:58.710 --> 00:23:01.349 behind it, what's the presupposition, is what 00:23:01.349 --> 00:23:03.410 you're really trying to teach them. And I found 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:05.750 even the things that are really black and white, 00:23:05.890 --> 00:23:09.630 they pick up on quickly. It was some other movies 00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:15.029 or shows where it was very subtle. you realize 00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:17.170 that we've been sitting here and we're rooting 00:23:17.170 --> 00:23:19.109 for this guy, and I feel like I'm rooting for 00:23:19.109 --> 00:23:22.549 this guy, but so far he's lied, he's committed 00:23:22.549 --> 00:23:25.650 adultery, he's abandoned his own wife, but they've 00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:28.930 created this narrative that it's just hard not 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:32.309 to root for him. What you're really helping him 00:23:32.309 --> 00:23:36.470 to do is learn to think and to process. Sean, 00:23:36.529 --> 00:23:39.009 thank you so much for what you're doing. I really 00:23:39.009 --> 00:23:41.809 appreciate you walking our listeners through. 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:45.359 Some really challenging things. Thanks for what 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.720 you do and for a wonderful conversation. Enjoy 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.440 every minute of it. Well, we'll do it again as 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:56.480 God allows. Keep pressing ahead, my friend. This 00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.380 is Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram. And you've 00:23:59.380 --> 00:24:01.539 been listening to the remainder of Chip's insightful 00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:04.559 conversation with best -selling author and Christian 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.680 apologist, Sean McDowell. To catch up on part 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.960 one of this interview or to check out any of 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:13.539 the resources Sean or Chip mentioned, visit livingontheedge 00:24:13.539 --> 00:24:18.960 .org. That's livingontheedge .org. Well, before 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.119 we go, I want to remind you again that we are 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:23.720 a listener -supported ministry. Your generous 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:26.240 financial gifts allow us to continue helping 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.960 Christians to live like Christians. And right 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.000 now, for anyone who becomes a monthly partner, 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.920 we'll send you our newest resource, The Marriage 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.359 That Works Truth Cards, as our way of saying 00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.299 thank you. To learn more, go to livingontheedge 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:45.329 .org or call us at 888 - 333 -6003. Again, that's 00:24:45.329 --> 00:24:51.349 888 -333 -6003 or visit livingontheedge .org. 00:24:52.109 --> 00:24:54.890 App listeners, tap donate. And thanks in advance 00:24:54.890 --> 00:24:57.210 for doing whatever the Lord leads you to do. 00:24:57.630 --> 00:24:59.890 Well, for Chip and the entire team here, this 00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:02.170 is Dave Drewy thanking you for listening to this 00:25:02.170 --> 00:25:04.950 edition of Living on the Edge, and I hope you'll 00:25:04.950 --> 00:25:06.130 join us again next time.